1 00:00:00,000 --> 00:00:13,760 Welcome to the We Are More podcast. 2 00:00:13,760 --> 00:00:15,640 My name is Alyssa. 3 00:00:15,640 --> 00:00:16,640 And my name is Bri. 4 00:00:16,640 --> 00:00:20,640 We are two sisters passionate about all things faith and feminism. 5 00:00:20,640 --> 00:00:25,520 We believe that Jesus trusted, respected, and encouraged women to teach and preach His 6 00:00:25,520 --> 00:00:26,520 word. 7 00:00:26,520 --> 00:00:28,720 And apparently that's controversial. 8 00:00:28,720 --> 00:00:32,360 It's a bit comfy. 9 00:00:32,360 --> 00:00:33,360 Hello! 10 00:00:33,360 --> 00:00:37,560 You're gonna hurt someone's ear. 11 00:00:37,560 --> 00:00:38,560 Hello! 12 00:00:38,560 --> 00:00:41,560 Someone's gonna kill you. 13 00:00:41,560 --> 00:00:42,560 Hello! 14 00:00:42,560 --> 00:00:45,600 I'm gonna kill you. 15 00:00:45,600 --> 00:00:49,520 This is the last episode in our submission series. 16 00:00:49,520 --> 00:00:53,760 My stomach just made a really weird noise. 17 00:00:53,760 --> 00:00:55,440 You just ate so you can't be hungry. 18 00:00:55,440 --> 00:00:56,440 I'm digesting. 19 00:00:56,440 --> 00:01:03,520 So the first episode in this series, we went through an article on what this one pastor 20 00:01:03,520 --> 00:01:05,160 believed. 21 00:01:05,160 --> 00:01:08,560 It was why submission preceded the fall. 22 00:01:08,560 --> 00:01:09,560 You got it. 23 00:01:09,560 --> 00:01:10,560 There we go. 24 00:01:10,560 --> 00:01:16,680 And talked through some of... it was one particular article, but you know, kind of the main arguments 25 00:01:16,680 --> 00:01:18,200 of that side of things. 26 00:01:18,200 --> 00:01:26,160 And then last main episode, we talked through why submission in Ephesians means something 27 00:01:26,160 --> 00:01:28,560 different than we've been taught. 28 00:01:28,560 --> 00:01:31,240 I feel like I say that all the time. 29 00:01:31,240 --> 00:01:32,880 And so this is gonna be part three. 30 00:01:32,880 --> 00:01:37,560 We're gonna talk through another article by... 31 00:01:37,560 --> 00:01:40,760 Okay, so I've been corrected on her name. 32 00:01:40,760 --> 00:01:43,800 Supposedly it is Marg. 33 00:01:43,800 --> 00:01:46,000 I've been told it's Marg. 34 00:01:46,000 --> 00:01:47,800 Who told you that? 35 00:01:47,800 --> 00:01:52,040 Mom listened to a podcast by Sheila. 36 00:01:52,040 --> 00:01:53,240 Sheila Raeg-Reguar. 37 00:01:53,240 --> 00:01:54,240 We love her. 38 00:01:54,240 --> 00:01:55,760 We do love her. 39 00:01:55,760 --> 00:01:59,120 And I believe she knows the woman. 40 00:01:59,120 --> 00:02:00,640 Or she just mispronounced her name. 41 00:02:00,640 --> 00:02:01,640 It's very possible. 42 00:02:01,640 --> 00:02:03,160 Who are we to say? 43 00:02:03,160 --> 00:02:04,160 Either way. 44 00:02:04,160 --> 00:02:05,680 By Marg Mousko. 45 00:02:05,680 --> 00:02:06,680 I don't know. 46 00:02:06,680 --> 00:02:07,680 M-O-W-C-Z-K-O. 47 00:02:07,680 --> 00:02:08,680 Yes. 48 00:02:08,680 --> 00:02:11,680 It's up to interpretation, really. 49 00:02:11,680 --> 00:02:17,480 This is the same author that wrote the article that we worked through last week. 50 00:02:17,480 --> 00:02:21,040 And she is just so incredibly smart and educated. 51 00:02:21,040 --> 00:02:23,240 She's a brilliant, brilliant Marg. 52 00:02:23,240 --> 00:02:30,000 Like, if you have the chance to check out her website, she has just countless articles. 53 00:02:30,000 --> 00:02:31,880 Do you think her real name is Margarita? 54 00:02:31,880 --> 00:02:33,800 Yeah, I think that's probably it. 55 00:02:33,800 --> 00:02:35,600 I hope it really is. 56 00:02:35,600 --> 00:02:37,840 I mean, there's gotta be people out there named Margarita. 57 00:02:37,840 --> 00:02:39,240 There are people named that. 58 00:02:39,240 --> 00:02:41,680 Are there any Margaritas listening? 59 00:02:41,680 --> 00:02:46,360 Margarita, if there's any out there, I will buy you a Margarita and I will also buy myself 60 00:02:46,360 --> 00:02:47,360 a Margarita. 61 00:02:47,360 --> 00:02:48,880 We will go out together and have a Margarita. 62 00:02:48,880 --> 00:02:50,600 What if they live in, like, Spain? 63 00:02:50,600 --> 00:02:51,600 Fly me out there. 64 00:02:51,600 --> 00:02:53,600 I need a passport. 65 00:02:53,600 --> 00:02:54,600 You do. 66 00:02:54,600 --> 00:03:01,680 So anyway, so she did an article and it is called, let me pull it up. 67 00:03:01,680 --> 00:03:03,080 Oh, can I say it? 68 00:03:03,080 --> 00:03:04,080 You absolutely can. 69 00:03:04,080 --> 00:03:08,840 Cefale, a mail headship in Paul's letters. 70 00:03:08,840 --> 00:03:10,520 And mail headship. 71 00:03:10,520 --> 00:03:13,520 Let me say that again. 72 00:03:13,520 --> 00:03:19,400 Cefale and mail headship in Paul's letters. 73 00:03:19,400 --> 00:03:22,940 Let's talk about what mail headship means because not everybody knows what that means 74 00:03:22,940 --> 00:03:24,320 and it sounds kind of inappropriate. 75 00:03:24,320 --> 00:03:25,320 It really does. 76 00:03:25,320 --> 00:03:27,320 I can't put that in the title. 77 00:03:27,320 --> 00:03:28,320 No. 78 00:03:28,320 --> 00:03:29,320 Heaven knows. 79 00:03:29,320 --> 00:03:30,320 No. 80 00:03:30,320 --> 00:03:31,320 Although we might get some more views. 81 00:03:31,320 --> 00:03:33,400 That's true, but probably from the wrong audience. 82 00:03:33,400 --> 00:03:35,200 But we'll be reaching them. 83 00:03:35,200 --> 00:03:38,200 And they need us. 84 00:03:38,200 --> 00:03:44,080 So basically this phrase is used in Christian circles. 85 00:03:44,080 --> 00:03:47,200 This is another really churchy way of saying things. 86 00:03:47,200 --> 00:03:50,480 Like if you play cards Christians like, it's probably in there. 87 00:03:50,480 --> 00:03:51,840 Yeah, probably. 88 00:03:51,840 --> 00:03:54,760 If you guys have not tried that game. 89 00:03:54,760 --> 00:03:58,360 It's Cards Against Humanity, but for people who grew up in the Christian circles. 90 00:03:58,360 --> 00:03:59,360 Yeah. 91 00:03:59,360 --> 00:04:00,360 And it is so funny. 92 00:04:00,360 --> 00:04:02,360 It was made by a bunch of, I think, youth pastors. 93 00:04:02,360 --> 00:04:03,360 Maybe. 94 00:04:03,360 --> 00:04:07,080 It was on Kickstarter a few years ago and I bought it and it's like one of the most 95 00:04:07,080 --> 00:04:08,480 popular games in our family. 96 00:04:08,480 --> 00:04:09,480 Everybody loves it. 97 00:04:09,480 --> 00:04:10,480 It's fantastic. 98 00:04:10,480 --> 00:04:12,480 Grandma does not love it. 99 00:04:12,480 --> 00:04:13,480 She thinks it's a little blasphemous. 100 00:04:13,480 --> 00:04:14,480 She might be right. 101 00:04:14,480 --> 00:04:15,480 It's a little blasphemous. 102 00:04:15,480 --> 00:04:23,240 But anyway, so this very churchy term essentially means, essentially we've been told, I guess, 103 00:04:23,240 --> 00:04:31,640 that it means that men are above women in authority, whether that's in the church or 104 00:04:31,640 --> 00:04:33,200 in their marriages. 105 00:04:33,200 --> 00:04:38,880 Think like the head of a company or the head of whatever you think, like the boss man. 106 00:04:38,880 --> 00:04:39,880 Exactly. 107 00:04:39,880 --> 00:04:43,480 So that comes from a couple of different verses in the Bible. 108 00:04:43,480 --> 00:04:44,880 Look how quickly we got on track. 109 00:04:44,880 --> 00:04:45,880 Are you proud? 110 00:04:45,880 --> 00:04:47,280 It's like not even five minutes in. 111 00:04:47,280 --> 00:04:48,280 Wow. 112 00:04:48,280 --> 00:04:50,320 It's because it's a thousand degrees in here. 113 00:04:50,320 --> 00:04:51,920 Yeah, we're meaning business. 114 00:04:51,920 --> 00:04:52,920 Yeah, business. 115 00:04:52,920 --> 00:04:54,840 We're business ladies. 116 00:04:54,840 --> 00:04:59,720 So this phrase pops up twice in the Bible, once in Colossians and once in Ephesians. 117 00:04:59,720 --> 00:05:02,520 So I'm going to read that to you. 118 00:05:02,520 --> 00:05:04,500 Once is in the household codes. 119 00:05:04,500 --> 00:05:07,080 So we've gone over this many times. 120 00:05:07,080 --> 00:05:08,160 We'll keep coming back. 121 00:05:08,160 --> 00:05:13,920 Ephesians is an exciting book for women. 122 00:05:13,920 --> 00:05:22,520 And so it's Ephesians, let's see, 523 is where this pops up and says, this is the NIV, 123 00:05:22,520 --> 00:05:26,200 For the husband is the head of the wife as Christ is the head of the church, his body 124 00:05:26,200 --> 00:05:29,000 of which he is the savior. 125 00:05:29,000 --> 00:05:32,200 And then it goes on to talk about submission. 126 00:05:32,200 --> 00:05:37,160 And then, which if you missed last week, listen to this one first and then bounce back. 127 00:05:37,160 --> 00:05:43,380 Highly recommend listening to this one first and then go to the next. 128 00:05:43,380 --> 00:05:46,200 And then it pops up again in Colossians 3. 129 00:05:46,200 --> 00:05:50,200 I'm really holding back saying Colossians the way that I want to. 130 00:05:50,200 --> 00:05:54,160 I would love if you just, you didn't do that. 131 00:05:54,160 --> 00:05:55,160 Colossians. 132 00:05:55,160 --> 00:05:56,960 Oh, I'm, oh, first Corinthians. 133 00:05:56,960 --> 00:05:59,760 I'm sorry, I'm in Colossians. 134 00:05:59,760 --> 00:06:04,160 Okay, so when I said Colossians earlier, I was wrong. 135 00:06:04,160 --> 00:06:07,000 It's in fact in first Corinthians and I can't read. 136 00:06:07,000 --> 00:06:10,480 And I've always said that. 137 00:06:10,480 --> 00:06:14,840 So first Corinthians 3, it says, but I want you to realize that the head of every man 138 00:06:14,840 --> 00:06:19,800 is Christ and the head of the woman is man and the head of Christ is God. 139 00:06:19,800 --> 00:06:20,800 Not confusing at all. 140 00:06:20,800 --> 00:06:24,360 So that's in first Corinthians. 141 00:06:24,360 --> 00:06:30,500 And that's, that is kind of the section on covering your head in worship. 142 00:06:30,500 --> 00:06:35,740 So it talks about women wearing head coverings when they're worshiping God. 143 00:06:35,740 --> 00:06:41,140 So those are the two passages that really reference it. 144 00:06:41,140 --> 00:06:44,200 And in modern day, oh, that's why Colossians. 145 00:06:44,200 --> 00:06:45,200 Okay. 146 00:06:45,200 --> 00:06:49,120 I found the Colossians verse guys. 147 00:06:49,120 --> 00:06:51,880 So Colossians 1, 18. 148 00:06:51,880 --> 00:06:52,880 Excuse me. 149 00:06:52,880 --> 00:06:54,880 I said that so long ago. 150 00:06:54,880 --> 00:06:56,920 I said it's right here at the top. 151 00:06:56,920 --> 00:06:59,960 Colossians, Colossians, Colossians. 152 00:06:59,960 --> 00:07:00,960 Curse you. 153 00:07:00,960 --> 00:07:06,840 That could be the title of the episode. 154 00:07:06,840 --> 00:07:08,800 And in fact I'll read it. 155 00:07:08,800 --> 00:07:10,360 Colossians 1, 18. 156 00:07:10,360 --> 00:07:26,560 Paul writes, the son is the head of the church body of which he is the beginning Archie. 157 00:07:26,560 --> 00:07:33,720 The firstborn of the dead so that he himself may be first in everything. 158 00:07:33,720 --> 00:07:34,720 Was that clear enough? 159 00:07:34,720 --> 00:07:40,560 If you're wondering why she said Archie in the middle of that, it's because the author 160 00:07:40,560 --> 00:07:45,320 has put in several instances of, are they Greek or? 161 00:07:45,320 --> 00:07:46,320 Don't ask me. 162 00:07:46,320 --> 00:07:47,320 Okay. 163 00:07:47,320 --> 00:07:48,320 So the original terms. 164 00:07:48,320 --> 00:07:49,320 So that's where Cephele comes from. 165 00:07:49,320 --> 00:07:54,480 A-R-C-H-E with like a flat accent. 166 00:07:54,480 --> 00:07:56,880 We should look up what that is. 167 00:07:56,880 --> 00:07:58,880 So Marg. 168 00:07:58,880 --> 00:08:01,760 Are we done? 169 00:08:01,760 --> 00:08:07,840 She talks about how this verse, so that verse in Colossians is to show that Jesus was essentially 170 00:08:07,840 --> 00:08:11,120 like the beginning of everything. 171 00:08:11,120 --> 00:08:14,160 Which means Jesus was the beginning of everything. 172 00:08:14,160 --> 00:08:15,760 Jesus was the beginning of everything. 173 00:08:15,760 --> 00:08:16,760 Interesting. 174 00:08:16,760 --> 00:08:21,440 I like towards the end of the article when she says the head body metaphor means that 175 00:08:21,440 --> 00:08:24,960 they're both part of the same body. 176 00:08:24,960 --> 00:08:26,800 One cannot be without the other. 177 00:08:26,800 --> 00:08:31,240 So it doesn't make sense that one person has more authority. 178 00:08:31,240 --> 00:08:38,560 So then in Ephesians where it says the husband is the head of the wife, we translate that 179 00:08:38,560 --> 00:08:41,160 to mean that he is the leader of his wife. 180 00:08:41,160 --> 00:08:46,120 That the man is the head of the company. 181 00:08:46,120 --> 00:08:50,160 But that's not a perfect translation of the word Cephele. 182 00:08:50,160 --> 00:08:51,880 Right. 183 00:08:51,880 --> 00:08:55,240 And Marg goes on. 184 00:08:55,240 --> 00:09:01,280 She goes on to talk about how the head body metaphor that Paul uses several times, which 185 00:09:01,280 --> 00:09:05,000 again because it's not a perfect translation, probably wasn't exactly what he was saying. 186 00:09:05,000 --> 00:09:12,240 But what we've translated as the head body metaphor was not something that the early 187 00:09:12,240 --> 00:09:16,580 church people would have been familiar with. 188 00:09:16,580 --> 00:09:21,120 Like the word Cephele wouldn't have meant leader. 189 00:09:21,120 --> 00:09:25,560 It wouldn't have meant the head of the company, the head of the church, the head of the... 190 00:09:25,560 --> 00:09:26,560 It didn't mean that. 191 00:09:26,560 --> 00:09:33,440 I'm assuming it meant more relating to Jesus or God. 192 00:09:33,440 --> 00:09:37,520 Well in Ephesians it does talk about the husband specifically. 193 00:09:37,520 --> 00:09:42,520 So that's the only place where you see, or that is the place where you see the husband 194 00:09:42,520 --> 00:09:45,840 and wife in this metaphor. 195 00:09:45,840 --> 00:09:50,200 And so then the question becomes why? 196 00:09:50,200 --> 00:10:00,200 Why is Paul saying that the husband is the Cephele of the wife if he's not the leader? 197 00:10:00,200 --> 00:10:02,500 What did it mean instead? 198 00:10:02,500 --> 00:10:05,720 So she says that it has a lot of... 199 00:10:05,720 --> 00:10:08,880 The word Cephele has a lot of metaphorical meanings. 200 00:10:08,880 --> 00:10:14,600 But a person in authority over others probably wouldn't have been one of the options. 201 00:10:14,600 --> 00:10:19,560 Like if you're doing a little Scantron, authority isn't one of the bubbles. 202 00:10:19,560 --> 00:10:21,360 Or if it is, it's the wrong bubble. 203 00:10:21,360 --> 00:10:23,360 Do they still do Scantrons? 204 00:10:23,360 --> 00:10:24,360 I think they do. 205 00:10:24,360 --> 00:10:25,840 I think they do. 206 00:10:25,840 --> 00:10:27,720 Mostly they do tests on the computer though. 207 00:10:27,720 --> 00:10:29,320 It's not good for your eyes. 208 00:10:29,320 --> 00:10:30,320 Like they bypass it. 209 00:10:30,320 --> 00:10:33,800 Well neither is my phone, but here we are. 210 00:10:33,800 --> 00:10:39,800 So she says, nevertheless, today in Christianity in our churches, we have assumed that that 211 00:10:39,800 --> 00:10:42,520 Greek word means authority in the New Testament. 212 00:10:42,520 --> 00:10:43,520 Hey it's Greek! 213 00:10:43,520 --> 00:10:46,520 Now we know. 214 00:10:46,520 --> 00:10:49,520 Greek! 215 00:10:49,520 --> 00:10:50,520 Give me a word. 216 00:10:50,520 --> 00:10:51,520 Any word. 217 00:10:51,520 --> 00:10:56,000 You could have finished the sentence. 218 00:10:56,000 --> 00:10:57,000 I don't know the rest. 219 00:10:57,000 --> 00:11:00,440 He goes, and I'll show you how the root of the word is Greek. 220 00:11:00,440 --> 00:11:01,440 Is Greek. 221 00:11:01,440 --> 00:11:02,440 Windex. 222 00:11:02,440 --> 00:11:03,440 And whatnot. 223 00:11:03,440 --> 00:11:08,280 You sound like grandpa a little bit. 224 00:11:08,280 --> 00:11:12,920 We come from Mediterranean descent, but you would not know it by how very pale I am. 225 00:11:12,920 --> 00:11:15,200 Okay, so this is very off topic. 226 00:11:15,200 --> 00:11:16,200 But your hair right now. 227 00:11:16,200 --> 00:11:20,040 Since when is anything on topic? 228 00:11:20,040 --> 00:11:21,040 We've lost our minds. 229 00:11:21,040 --> 00:11:22,320 It's so hot. 230 00:11:22,320 --> 00:11:23,920 Your hair right now. 231 00:11:23,920 --> 00:11:29,680 Because you've got, Brianna has a claw clip, a very large claw clip sitting directly on 232 00:11:29,680 --> 00:11:30,680 the top of her head. 233 00:11:30,680 --> 00:11:33,460 I don't like the judgment that's happening right now. 234 00:11:33,460 --> 00:11:40,080 If you've ever seen Princess Diaries 2, where the guy that does the hair, he comes in and 235 00:11:40,080 --> 00:11:45,160 he does her hair the first time, and then he shows her herself and she goes, I look 236 00:11:45,160 --> 00:11:46,160 like a moose. 237 00:11:46,160 --> 00:11:51,160 That's what I'm thinking of right now. 238 00:11:51,160 --> 00:11:53,160 You jerk. 239 00:11:53,160 --> 00:11:56,000 I feel like a moose. 240 00:11:56,000 --> 00:11:57,000 I'm so hot. 241 00:11:57,000 --> 00:11:59,000 Her moose is particularly hot. 242 00:11:59,000 --> 00:12:01,000 Her hair right now. 243 00:12:01,000 --> 00:12:02,000 Moose? 244 00:12:02,000 --> 00:12:03,000 Meese? 245 00:12:03,000 --> 00:12:04,000 What's the plural of moose? 246 00:12:04,000 --> 00:12:05,000 It's obviously meese. 247 00:12:05,000 --> 00:12:07,000 We all know that. 248 00:12:07,000 --> 00:12:09,560 Maybe we can hop back on topic. 249 00:12:09,560 --> 00:12:10,560 Back to kefele. 250 00:12:10,560 --> 00:12:12,680 Bringing it back around. 251 00:12:12,680 --> 00:12:18,360 Another piece of evidence that shows that kefele does not mean leadership or authority 252 00:12:18,360 --> 00:12:26,080 or any of those difficult words that we like to interpret it as is that the Hebrew word 253 00:12:26,080 --> 00:12:32,000 for head, which was rosh, meant your actual head. 254 00:12:32,000 --> 00:12:38,120 Your physical body, like my brain and your eyeballs, your nose, the part that looks like 255 00:12:38,120 --> 00:12:40,040 a moose, all that. 256 00:12:40,040 --> 00:12:42,720 That was the word rosh. 257 00:12:42,720 --> 00:12:47,800 Translators through time translated rosh into kefele. 258 00:12:47,800 --> 00:12:55,000 That physical part of your body, they made that into the word kefele over time. 259 00:12:55,000 --> 00:12:56,000 It's like a game of telephone. 260 00:12:56,000 --> 00:12:59,200 Yeah, there's not a perfect translation for everything. 261 00:12:59,200 --> 00:13:04,240 We know that from modern day translations because we know that translations aren't perfect 262 00:13:04,240 --> 00:13:11,680 and that over time a translation of a translation of a translation has lost a lot of the initial 263 00:13:11,680 --> 00:13:12,680 meaning. 264 00:13:12,680 --> 00:13:17,440 We have to really go all the way back to the original Greek, which again, no one expects 265 00:13:17,440 --> 00:13:20,160 the average person to be able to do. 266 00:13:20,160 --> 00:13:21,600 No. 267 00:13:21,600 --> 00:13:28,560 But your pastors who tell you that men are in authority over women have studied this. 268 00:13:28,560 --> 00:13:31,280 They went to seminary if you didn't know. 269 00:13:31,280 --> 00:13:33,240 At least probably most of them did. 270 00:13:33,240 --> 00:13:34,280 They should have. 271 00:13:34,280 --> 00:13:35,600 They should know this. 272 00:13:35,600 --> 00:13:38,840 They should have studied Greek. 273 00:13:38,840 --> 00:13:44,040 It shouldn't take the two of us goofballs on the internet telling you about it. 274 00:13:44,040 --> 00:13:45,920 Quoting my big fat Greek wedding. 275 00:13:45,920 --> 00:13:53,620 So she says that in Hebrew, like in English, had can also mean leader or ruler. 276 00:13:53,620 --> 00:13:58,360 The word rosh, not the word kefele, the word rosh could mean leader in Hebrew. 277 00:13:58,360 --> 00:14:05,400 But in most cases where it did mean ruler or leader, there was a different Greek word 278 00:14:05,400 --> 00:14:12,040 used and that was, I say it, is arshon, I think. 279 00:14:12,040 --> 00:14:14,640 I'm going to assume you're wrong. 280 00:14:14,640 --> 00:14:17,400 I highly recommend looking this up because I'm butchering. 281 00:14:17,400 --> 00:14:18,400 Spell it. 282 00:14:18,400 --> 00:14:27,520 A-R-C-H-O with that fun little accent N. And that word does mean ruler or leader. 283 00:14:27,520 --> 00:14:33,240 So the fact that Paul did not use the word arshon and instead used kefele. 284 00:14:33,240 --> 00:14:34,240 Exactly. 285 00:14:34,240 --> 00:14:36,080 Says something. 286 00:14:36,080 --> 00:14:39,160 It says something about the meaning. 287 00:14:39,160 --> 00:14:40,160 Yeah. 288 00:14:40,160 --> 00:14:42,380 Paul was very smart. 289 00:14:42,380 --> 00:14:45,160 He chose his words carefully. 290 00:14:45,160 --> 00:14:50,160 And if we were back in first century churches right after Jesus died. 291 00:14:50,160 --> 00:14:52,080 I would stink a lot more than I do now. 292 00:14:52,080 --> 00:14:54,300 Well yeah, probably. 293 00:14:54,300 --> 00:14:59,880 But also this would make sense to us because this would just be your natural language. 294 00:14:59,880 --> 00:15:04,680 You wouldn't think that kefele meant leader because it's never meant leader to you before. 295 00:15:04,680 --> 00:15:05,680 So Paul didn't really- 296 00:15:05,680 --> 00:15:08,280 It meant my stinkin' head. 297 00:15:08,280 --> 00:15:10,120 So Paul didn't need to explain it. 298 00:15:10,120 --> 00:15:12,800 He didn't need to go through it for these people. 299 00:15:12,800 --> 00:15:18,120 It's just that now we're so far removed that we have to do some digging. 300 00:15:18,120 --> 00:15:20,400 We have to investigate a little bit. 301 00:15:20,400 --> 00:15:27,600 I think that's what's so important too is not just reading the words off the page. 302 00:15:27,600 --> 00:15:29,120 Dig into the deeper meaning. 303 00:15:29,120 --> 00:15:31,120 Dig into the historical context. 304 00:15:31,120 --> 00:15:35,960 Dig into the why of why you truly believe what you believe. 305 00:15:35,960 --> 00:15:40,240 Why do we believe that women and men are equal? 306 00:15:40,240 --> 00:15:41,240 Because of this. 307 00:15:41,240 --> 00:15:42,600 Because of digging and doing research. 308 00:15:42,600 --> 00:15:47,720 And that's why we're sharing it with all of you. 309 00:15:47,720 --> 00:15:52,160 And I think it makes the Bible so much more real. 310 00:15:52,160 --> 00:15:59,040 Like Paul, before digging into this, not just for the podcast but in my personal research, 311 00:15:59,040 --> 00:16:05,240 Paul was a little bit of the bad guy in my world because he has a lot to say about women. 312 00:16:05,240 --> 00:16:08,880 And I've said this before, it all seems really mean. 313 00:16:08,880 --> 00:16:11,400 He seems like he hates women. 314 00:16:11,400 --> 00:16:17,080 But when you dig into it and you look at what words did he actually use? 315 00:16:17,080 --> 00:16:19,120 What were his real actions towards women? 316 00:16:19,120 --> 00:16:21,740 You look at his relationship with Phoebe. 317 00:16:21,740 --> 00:16:27,240 It all makes Paul into a very different person than I thought he was. 318 00:16:27,240 --> 00:16:32,120 It turns him into a real person that I could really have a conversation with. 319 00:16:32,120 --> 00:16:37,760 The relationship that I had with Paul, and I'm sure it was you too growing up, was going 320 00:16:37,760 --> 00:16:46,120 to church and hearing about the verses putting down women that Paul wrote. 321 00:16:46,120 --> 00:16:53,080 But whenever they do a sermon on submission or Mother's Day, whatever, it's always, here's 322 00:16:53,080 --> 00:16:55,760 what Paul said to put you down. 323 00:16:55,760 --> 00:16:57,960 Keep you in your place. 324 00:16:57,960 --> 00:17:05,100 And I think it's because of translator bias in a lot of ways because you can look at certain 325 00:17:05,100 --> 00:17:11,520 translations that were written with the purpose of making sure women stayed where they were 326 00:17:11,520 --> 00:17:12,520 told. 327 00:17:12,520 --> 00:17:17,120 But I don't think Paul ever meant that, and I think there's so much evidence throughout 328 00:17:17,120 --> 00:17:25,600 the Bible that Paul, like Jesus, was setting women free from these societal expectations. 329 00:17:25,600 --> 00:17:28,840 Well, you can tell a lot about a person from their actions. 330 00:17:28,840 --> 00:17:33,840 And just like you just said, his relationship with Phoebe or any other woman that he had 331 00:17:33,840 --> 00:17:36,800 an interaction with- Prisca is another really good one. 332 00:17:36,800 --> 00:17:37,800 Yeah. 333 00:17:37,800 --> 00:17:38,800 Respect. 334 00:17:38,800 --> 00:17:39,800 Equal respect. 335 00:17:39,800 --> 00:17:42,880 Well, he called them his coworkers. 336 00:17:42,880 --> 00:17:52,520 He sent them out to do things that today we would not, not we, but the very conservative 337 00:17:52,520 --> 00:17:55,700 Christian church would not let women do. 338 00:17:55,700 --> 00:18:01,440 Like Phoebe went to the Roman church, she carried the book of Romans to the Roman house 339 00:18:01,440 --> 00:18:03,800 churches, and she preached it. 340 00:18:03,800 --> 00:18:05,280 Girl, preach. 341 00:18:05,280 --> 00:18:06,540 Preach. 342 00:18:06,540 --> 00:18:13,380 She gave them exactly what Paul wanted, the message that Paul wanted to convey. 343 00:18:13,380 --> 00:18:15,900 She didn't just hear, here's a letter. 344 00:18:15,900 --> 00:18:21,080 And we did a whole episode where we talked about this, but she didn't do that. 345 00:18:21,080 --> 00:18:26,600 She preached to them the message that Paul was trying to send. 346 00:18:26,600 --> 00:18:28,640 And he trusted her to do that. 347 00:18:28,640 --> 00:18:29,640 Right. 348 00:18:29,640 --> 00:18:33,900 And the same thing when you look at Prisca or Priscilla, depending on the translation 349 00:18:33,900 --> 00:18:39,840 and what you're looking at, she was another one that was a coworker of Paul's that Paul 350 00:18:39,840 --> 00:18:44,280 said, go preach. 351 00:18:44,280 --> 00:18:48,800 So Ephesians 523 says, because the husband is the head of the wife as Christ is the head 352 00:18:48,800 --> 00:18:52,880 of the church, he is the savior of the body. 353 00:18:52,880 --> 00:18:58,480 Nowhere does it say that man should be the head of his household or for a man to lead 354 00:18:58,480 --> 00:19:03,800 their wives, instead he says six times somewhere in there that the husband should love their 355 00:19:03,800 --> 00:19:04,800 wives. 356 00:19:04,800 --> 00:19:05,800 Yeah. 357 00:19:05,800 --> 00:19:07,440 Well, our last episode, we went through that. 358 00:19:07,440 --> 00:19:13,720 We talked about how the entire passage, the household codes, talks about love and care 359 00:19:13,720 --> 00:19:22,320 and not leadership, not decision making, not you are the be all and all of your home, but 360 00:19:22,320 --> 00:19:26,840 that it means care for someone as you would care for yourself. 361 00:19:26,840 --> 00:19:32,560 And she goes on to talk about like, why in a pairing, there's two people. 362 00:19:32,560 --> 00:19:34,360 It's not like it's a massive corporation. 363 00:19:34,360 --> 00:19:39,560 Why does there have to be one person that always makes the decisions, that always is 364 00:19:39,560 --> 00:19:42,480 the leader who isn't allowed to be questioned? 365 00:19:42,480 --> 00:19:47,160 It doesn't make sense for a pairing of two people to have that kind of power given to 366 00:19:47,160 --> 00:19:48,160 one person. 367 00:19:48,160 --> 00:19:51,360 Well, we've said this before, I don't know if we've said it on the podcast or just in 368 00:19:51,360 --> 00:19:56,560 real life, but in no other relationship, are you looking for a leader? 369 00:19:56,560 --> 00:19:59,200 You would never say that about our sister relationship. 370 00:19:59,200 --> 00:20:01,440 Well, one of us has to be the leader. 371 00:20:01,440 --> 00:20:02,840 One of us has to make the decisions. 372 00:20:02,840 --> 00:20:04,400 One of us does. 373 00:20:04,400 --> 00:20:06,860 You wouldn't say that about a friendship. 374 00:20:06,860 --> 00:20:11,800 You wouldn't say that about any other relationship. 375 00:20:11,800 --> 00:20:18,000 And all of the other people in your life would tell you, that's a bad relationship. 376 00:20:18,000 --> 00:20:19,440 Why are you friends with her? 377 00:20:19,440 --> 00:20:20,440 Stop being friends with her. 378 00:20:20,440 --> 00:20:26,840 We've talked about that so many times how any situation where you're so desperate for 379 00:20:26,840 --> 00:20:30,520 power, it just absolutely leads to abuse every single time. 380 00:20:30,520 --> 00:20:35,840 And we've seen it so many times in this submissive marriage unit. 381 00:20:35,840 --> 00:20:40,880 Well, I see it playing out in our world today. 382 00:20:40,880 --> 00:20:48,960 I mean, I can point to situations and say, this is an abuse of power. 383 00:20:48,960 --> 00:20:58,840 And even if you want to subscribe to the submission based marriage, which I don't have major issues 384 00:20:58,840 --> 00:20:59,840 with. 385 00:20:59,840 --> 00:21:01,760 Oh, that made it sound like I don't have major issues with it. 386 00:21:01,760 --> 00:21:02,760 I do. 387 00:21:02,760 --> 00:21:03,760 I don't agree with it. 388 00:21:03,760 --> 00:21:06,760 I have major issues with it. 389 00:21:06,760 --> 00:21:07,760 Sorry. 390 00:21:07,760 --> 00:21:10,160 You screamed it too. 391 00:21:10,160 --> 00:21:13,300 Even if you do, like let's say you are, you're fine with that. 392 00:21:13,300 --> 00:21:16,120 That's the way you want to live your life. 393 00:21:16,120 --> 00:21:20,360 I guess have added if both of you agree to that lifestyle. 394 00:21:20,360 --> 00:21:24,640 Even in that, don't abuse your power. 395 00:21:24,640 --> 00:21:33,000 Even in that for the men in those situations, you're still supposed to be the loving, caring 396 00:21:33,000 --> 00:21:37,440 servant that Christ calls you to be. 397 00:21:37,440 --> 00:21:40,200 Not some authoritarian leader. 398 00:21:40,200 --> 00:21:45,800 Because she goes on to talk about this later, but like the source that they're always talking 399 00:21:45,800 --> 00:21:50,920 about is not males in general, men in general. 400 00:21:50,920 --> 00:21:53,080 They're not the source because God is the source. 401 00:21:53,080 --> 00:21:58,840 And just because a lot of their arguments are, well, Adam was created first and then 402 00:21:58,840 --> 00:22:01,140 Eve was created from Adam. 403 00:22:01,140 --> 00:22:03,240 So therefore he has authority. 404 00:22:03,240 --> 00:22:05,400 Adam really had nothing to do with it. 405 00:22:05,400 --> 00:22:06,400 Adam was asleep. 406 00:22:06,400 --> 00:22:10,280 He was passed out and God was like, don't mind me. 407 00:22:10,280 --> 00:22:11,280 I'm going to take your rip. 408 00:22:11,280 --> 00:22:12,280 I'm going to take your rip. 409 00:22:12,280 --> 00:22:13,280 Don't mind me. 410 00:22:13,280 --> 00:22:14,280 He was passed out. 411 00:22:14,280 --> 00:22:21,480 He had no idea what was happening and God made Eve in his own image. 412 00:22:21,480 --> 00:22:23,160 Adam had nothing to do with it. 413 00:22:23,160 --> 00:22:25,400 God is the source. 414 00:22:25,400 --> 00:22:26,400 Godheadship. 415 00:22:26,400 --> 00:22:29,400 I don't like that either. 416 00:22:29,400 --> 00:22:32,280 We need to find a new word. 417 00:22:32,280 --> 00:22:37,040 She goes on to say, I'm just going to quote it because I wrote it down in a quote. 418 00:22:37,040 --> 00:22:38,040 I'm proud of you. 419 00:22:38,040 --> 00:22:42,840 She says, many Greek philosophers in writers such as Plutarch. 420 00:22:42,840 --> 00:22:43,840 Plutarch. 421 00:22:43,840 --> 00:22:44,840 There you go. 422 00:22:44,840 --> 00:22:50,200 Taught that husbands are the leaders and rulers of their wives. 423 00:22:50,200 --> 00:22:56,560 In contrast, no Bible author, including Paul, tells husbands to be the leader, ruler or 424 00:22:56,560 --> 00:22:59,800 authority over their wives. 425 00:22:59,800 --> 00:23:05,600 Rather than using any of the Greek words, which mean ruler, leader, authority, Paul 426 00:23:05,600 --> 00:23:18,920 used kefele, which with body to highlight the connectedness of husband and wife. 427 00:23:18,920 --> 00:23:19,960 They're supposed to be connected. 428 00:23:19,960 --> 00:23:23,480 They're supposed to be one singular unit. 429 00:23:23,480 --> 00:23:27,040 A metaphor that I've heard a lot is, and I don't like this metaphor. 430 00:23:27,040 --> 00:23:34,440 I'm not a fan of it, but I have heard it, is, well, the man is the head, but the wife 431 00:23:34,440 --> 00:23:36,480 or the woman is the neck. 432 00:23:36,480 --> 00:23:39,080 You heard that from my big fat Greek wedding. 433 00:23:39,080 --> 00:23:40,960 I heard it in church the other day. 434 00:23:40,960 --> 00:23:45,120 It's from my big fat Greek wedding, but the woman is the neck that turns the head where 435 00:23:45,120 --> 00:23:46,120 it goes. 436 00:23:46,120 --> 00:23:51,640 Now, I still have issues with that metaphor because I don't like the concept of, first 437 00:23:51,640 --> 00:23:59,000 of all, both of you not being able to control yourselves in your own life, but it's an interesting 438 00:23:59,000 --> 00:24:03,280 way of looking at that where it is interconnected. 439 00:24:03,280 --> 00:24:05,400 One needs the other. 440 00:24:05,400 --> 00:24:10,720 The head can't really do much of anything or be connected to the body of Christ without 441 00:24:10,720 --> 00:24:12,960 the neck. 442 00:24:12,960 --> 00:24:18,560 In contrast, the neck can't really talk or look or whatever. 443 00:24:18,560 --> 00:24:20,560 Again, I still don't like it. 444 00:24:20,560 --> 00:24:22,400 It has a lot of flaws. 445 00:24:22,400 --> 00:24:27,520 I think I would prefer if one was like, the husband was the left hand and the woman was 446 00:24:27,520 --> 00:24:32,520 the right. 447 00:24:32,520 --> 00:24:35,680 You know who else talks about the philosophers as well? 448 00:24:35,680 --> 00:24:38,240 We haven't brought up in a while. 449 00:24:38,240 --> 00:24:40,280 Beth Ellison Barr. 450 00:24:40,280 --> 00:24:43,720 We should do a whole episode on Beth. 451 00:24:43,720 --> 00:24:44,720 We should. 452 00:24:44,720 --> 00:24:48,080 Just her and her life wouldn't be creepy at all. 453 00:24:48,080 --> 00:24:49,080 She's out there listening. 454 00:24:49,080 --> 00:24:50,080 Sorry, Beth. 455 00:24:50,080 --> 00:24:54,640 I've stalked her and I know that she goes to Meyer. 456 00:24:54,640 --> 00:24:58,400 You know, Meyer is regional, so most people don't know where Meyer is, especially our 457 00:24:58,400 --> 00:25:00,800 international listeners. 458 00:25:00,800 --> 00:25:02,760 It's fun to say international listeners. 459 00:25:02,760 --> 00:25:04,760 Hello, you all. 460 00:25:04,760 --> 00:25:07,040 I know too, some people are listening. 461 00:25:07,040 --> 00:25:10,480 I mean, maybe, I don't know, maybe you guys are just major night owls and we go to bed 462 00:25:10,480 --> 00:25:12,560 at eight, so I don't know. 463 00:25:12,560 --> 00:25:15,520 But I wake up in the morning feeling like P. Diddy. 464 00:25:15,520 --> 00:25:16,520 Grab your glasses. 465 00:25:16,520 --> 00:25:17,520 You're out the door. 466 00:25:17,520 --> 00:25:18,520 You're about to hit the city. 467 00:25:18,520 --> 00:25:20,400 Before I leave, I grab my... 468 00:25:20,400 --> 00:25:21,400 Nope. 469 00:25:21,400 --> 00:25:23,400 She brushes her teeth with a bottle of Jack. 470 00:25:23,400 --> 00:25:26,440 When I leave for the night, I ain't coming back. 471 00:25:26,440 --> 00:25:27,440 Thank you. 472 00:25:27,440 --> 00:25:31,920 But when I wake up in the morning, there are always lots of new views that I assume it's 473 00:25:31,920 --> 00:25:37,480 from people that are in different time zones than us because I mean, maybe you guys are 474 00:25:37,480 --> 00:25:39,520 up till three, I don't know, but I'm not. 475 00:25:39,520 --> 00:25:41,800 I'll tell you what, I am not. 476 00:25:41,800 --> 00:25:43,880 Our mother is... 477 00:25:43,880 --> 00:25:46,680 Get some sleep, Trisha. 478 00:25:46,680 --> 00:25:53,240 Anyway, back to Beth Elsinbar. 479 00:25:53,240 --> 00:25:58,880 So she talks in her book about the Greek and Roman philosophers of the time and how they 480 00:25:58,880 --> 00:26:01,880 were extremely patriarchal. 481 00:26:01,880 --> 00:26:09,040 To the point where at this time, the prevailing theory was that women's bodies were like mutilated 482 00:26:09,040 --> 00:26:10,040 men's bodies. 483 00:26:10,040 --> 00:26:12,560 Yes, I remember her talking about that. 484 00:26:12,560 --> 00:26:14,680 Women were screwed up men. 485 00:26:14,680 --> 00:26:18,160 And there's something, I'll have to look up the quote for sure, but there's something 486 00:26:18,160 --> 00:26:25,080 about women in the womb were not strong enough to push their male parts out. 487 00:26:25,080 --> 00:26:27,080 And I've always said that. 488 00:26:27,080 --> 00:26:31,920 No, but really, I mean, that was the thought process of the time. 489 00:26:31,920 --> 00:26:36,240 It sounds absolutely insane, but that was the thought process. 490 00:26:36,240 --> 00:26:40,720 And so Paul, in the way that he words things, in the way that he speaks to men, in the way 491 00:26:40,720 --> 00:26:46,560 that he speaks about women, brings them into the conversation, sends them out on ministry 492 00:26:46,560 --> 00:26:50,200 missions, trips, I don't know. 493 00:26:50,200 --> 00:26:51,200 Pilgrimages. 494 00:26:51,200 --> 00:26:57,600 He turns that completely on its head and changes things for women. 495 00:26:57,600 --> 00:26:58,960 He's not putting them down. 496 00:26:58,960 --> 00:27:00,760 He's not putting them in their place. 497 00:27:00,760 --> 00:27:06,280 And I will grant you a lot of things Paul says because of the way it's been translated. 498 00:27:06,280 --> 00:27:09,440 It does sound like Paul's putting women in their place. 499 00:27:09,440 --> 00:27:14,320 But when you jump into it, when you look at the Greek, when you break these things down, 500 00:27:14,320 --> 00:27:16,120 that's not what he's doing at all. 501 00:27:16,120 --> 00:27:23,920 Marge, our good friend Marge, says that unity, affinity, fidelity, equality, all of those 502 00:27:23,920 --> 00:27:29,520 terms were absent in the marriages of the Greco-Roman society. 503 00:27:29,520 --> 00:27:36,360 So Paul found it necessary to write about the godly ideals of marriage. 504 00:27:36,360 --> 00:27:38,440 Like you said, bring it into the picture. 505 00:27:38,440 --> 00:27:39,440 Right. 506 00:27:39,440 --> 00:27:41,600 Tell, kind of put men in their place too. 507 00:27:41,600 --> 00:27:42,600 Yeah. 508 00:27:42,600 --> 00:27:47,320 Because up until this point, it's easy to look at these marriages where men could divorce 509 00:27:47,320 --> 00:27:49,960 their wives at this time for any reason that they felt like. 510 00:27:49,960 --> 00:27:54,280 I don't like the way she looked at me. 511 00:27:54,280 --> 00:27:56,360 Her pinky toe looks weird. 512 00:27:56,360 --> 00:28:03,320 And she would be out on the street and her options were to find a way to remarry, which 513 00:28:03,320 --> 00:28:08,280 was difficult because she was divorced now, or become a prostitute. 514 00:28:08,280 --> 00:28:10,720 Those were the options for her. 515 00:28:10,720 --> 00:28:11,720 I would be a prostitute. 516 00:28:11,720 --> 00:28:15,880 Thank you for that information. 517 00:28:15,880 --> 00:28:19,800 And so Paul is calling some people out here. 518 00:28:19,800 --> 00:28:22,680 He's saying, this is not the way that I want you to live. 519 00:28:22,680 --> 00:28:27,000 And prior to this, they didn't necessarily have that instruction. 520 00:28:27,000 --> 00:28:30,480 We don't see this mentioned really in the Old Testament. 521 00:28:30,480 --> 00:28:36,320 It's not talked about as much by Jesus, which of course we wish it was, but this wasn't 522 00:28:36,320 --> 00:28:38,280 Jesus' main mission. 523 00:28:38,280 --> 00:28:43,540 His main mission was to show God's love to all people, and Jesus absolutely included 524 00:28:43,540 --> 00:28:45,960 women in that. 525 00:28:45,960 --> 00:28:50,200 But he didn't necessarily speak directly about marriage in the way that Paul is speaking 526 00:28:50,200 --> 00:28:52,080 about marriage here. 527 00:28:52,080 --> 00:29:02,440 The only time the word authority, or get ready for this pronunciation, excusia. 528 00:29:02,440 --> 00:29:03,440 Spell it. 529 00:29:03,440 --> 00:29:04,440 E-X-O-U-S-I-A. 530 00:29:04,440 --> 00:29:05,440 Thank you. 531 00:29:05,440 --> 00:29:06,440 Excusia. 532 00:29:06,440 --> 00:29:10,240 Excusia. 533 00:29:10,240 --> 00:29:15,320 Is used in the New Testament in the context of marriage, as in 1 Corinthians 7.4. 534 00:29:15,320 --> 00:29:18,440 Do you want to look that up? 535 00:29:18,440 --> 00:29:19,440 Sure. 536 00:29:19,440 --> 00:29:25,360 So, 1 Corinthians 7.4 says, the wife does not have authority over her own body, but 537 00:29:25,360 --> 00:29:26,760 yields it to her husband. 538 00:29:26,760 --> 00:29:30,640 In the same way, the husband does not have authority over his own body, but yields it 539 00:29:30,640 --> 00:29:31,640 to his wife. 540 00:29:31,640 --> 00:29:37,480 And the marriage says that, this verse shows that rather than the husband being the authority 541 00:29:37,480 --> 00:29:43,260 or decision maker, Paul expects husbands and wives to make decisions mutually together 542 00:29:43,260 --> 00:29:45,160 in consent. 543 00:29:45,160 --> 00:29:50,840 I think this verse is super interesting too because, and this is a little bit of an offshoot, 544 00:29:50,840 --> 00:30:00,760 but male authority so often in conservative Christian churches means women have to submit 545 00:30:00,760 --> 00:30:03,960 to sex whenever he says. 546 00:30:03,960 --> 00:30:05,080 I think it's so interesting. 547 00:30:05,080 --> 00:30:13,920 So this, chapter 7 here, at least the beginning of it, talks a lot about sex and don't do 548 00:30:13,920 --> 00:30:14,920 it. 549 00:30:14,920 --> 00:30:17,920 Don't sing a song. 550 00:30:17,920 --> 00:30:19,240 Boys to men, that's all I'll say. 551 00:30:19,240 --> 00:30:20,240 Alright, thank you. 552 00:30:20,240 --> 00:30:21,480 So it talks through a lot of that. 553 00:30:21,480 --> 00:30:28,560 And I just, so this was something that I think Sheila Ray Gregoire posted about? 554 00:30:28,560 --> 00:30:30,560 Sheila, Sheila. 555 00:30:30,560 --> 00:30:32,280 I know we mention a lot of names. 556 00:30:32,280 --> 00:30:35,360 I would really encourage you guys to look up some of these women. 557 00:30:35,360 --> 00:30:41,880 So she had posted something about the three day rule, which I was not familiar with, I 558 00:30:41,880 --> 00:30:42,880 will say. 559 00:30:42,880 --> 00:30:46,780 And I obviously grew up in very conservative Christian churches, but we also never talked 560 00:30:46,780 --> 00:30:47,780 about sex. 561 00:30:47,780 --> 00:30:48,780 That's true. 562 00:30:48,780 --> 00:30:49,980 Like you never talked about it. 563 00:30:49,980 --> 00:30:52,600 I was very confused for a very long time. 564 00:30:52,600 --> 00:30:54,160 Mom, thanks. 565 00:30:54,160 --> 00:31:01,480 So the three day rule is essentially that a married couple needs to have some kind of 566 00:31:01,480 --> 00:31:02,480 interaction. 567 00:31:02,480 --> 00:31:06,680 Interaction, thank you. 568 00:31:06,680 --> 00:31:09,600 At least every 72 hours. 569 00:31:09,600 --> 00:31:13,600 And just, I mean, first of all, give me a verse. 570 00:31:13,600 --> 00:31:14,600 I mean, seriously. 571 00:31:14,600 --> 00:31:15,600 Yeah. 572 00:31:15,600 --> 00:31:19,280 Give me an even like, Paul, Jesus, speak up here. 573 00:31:19,280 --> 00:31:21,560 Are you saying anything like that? 574 00:31:21,560 --> 00:31:23,200 Like you can't even stretch a verse. 575 00:31:23,200 --> 00:31:24,200 No. 576 00:31:24,200 --> 00:31:25,200 To find that. 577 00:31:25,200 --> 00:31:26,200 No. 578 00:31:26,200 --> 00:31:30,240 There is nothing that says that whatsoever, but that is supposedly the rule. 579 00:31:30,240 --> 00:31:36,440 And if the wife doesn't comply with that because the husband has urges, you know, and he just 580 00:31:36,440 --> 00:31:43,160 can't possibly control himself, then he's liable to go out and cheat on her or look 581 00:31:43,160 --> 00:31:47,400 at porn or whatever it is to fulfill his needs. 582 00:31:47,400 --> 00:31:48,400 And it's her fault. 583 00:31:48,400 --> 00:31:49,400 Yeah. 584 00:31:49,400 --> 00:31:51,000 They put it back on the female and be like, that's on you. 585 00:31:51,000 --> 00:31:52,000 Yeah. 586 00:31:52,000 --> 00:31:54,880 And then they're looking at the men and being like, control yourselves. 587 00:31:54,880 --> 00:31:59,080 And this is obviously like not exactly the topic that we're talking about today, but 588 00:31:59,080 --> 00:32:03,680 I just think this verse throws all of that in the trash. 589 00:32:03,680 --> 00:32:11,480 You have to completely breeze on by this verse in order to even kind of get to a world where 590 00:32:11,480 --> 00:32:15,740 this 72 hour rule or any of those rules apply. 591 00:32:15,740 --> 00:32:22,560 Even in the ESV it says, so I'll read from verse four, for the wife does not have authority 592 00:32:22,560 --> 00:32:24,600 over her own body, but the husband does. 593 00:32:24,600 --> 00:32:28,980 Likewise, the husband does not have authority over his own body, but the wife does. 594 00:32:28,980 --> 00:32:33,840 If you aren't familiar, the ESV was written, the English standard version was written as 595 00:32:33,840 --> 00:32:37,440 a response to the new international version, the NIV. 596 00:32:37,440 --> 00:32:41,600 It was written from a much more conservative place. 597 00:32:41,600 --> 00:32:52,440 So the NIV came out and took a lot of traditionally translated as male verses and made them gender 598 00:32:52,440 --> 00:32:56,440 neutral because that's what they should be translated as. 599 00:32:56,440 --> 00:32:58,200 They didn't just do it for fun. 600 00:32:58,200 --> 00:32:59,200 They translated it that way. 601 00:32:59,200 --> 00:33:02,440 They looked at the original transcripts and translated it that way. 602 00:33:02,440 --> 00:33:03,440 Exactly. 603 00:33:03,440 --> 00:33:09,760 So the ESV was written in response to that because a bunch of the Baptist pastors decided 604 00:33:09,760 --> 00:33:16,000 that it was gender neutralizing the Bible and that that was not okay. 605 00:33:16,000 --> 00:33:18,600 So anyway, so that's why we talk about this. 606 00:33:18,600 --> 00:33:22,560 If you look at the difference there, and again, this is totally an offshoot, but I think it's 607 00:33:22,560 --> 00:33:24,080 an important offshoot. 608 00:33:24,080 --> 00:33:30,440 The NIV says the wife does not have authority over her own body, but yields it to her husband 609 00:33:30,440 --> 00:33:33,680 and the husband yields it to the wife, right? 610 00:33:33,680 --> 00:33:44,400 Whereas the ESV says the wife does not have authority over her own body, but the husband 611 00:33:44,400 --> 00:33:48,880 does and the husband doesn't have authority over his own body, but the wife does. 612 00:33:48,880 --> 00:33:56,080 So I think the important distinction there is that the individual person does have rights 613 00:33:56,080 --> 00:34:05,200 in the NIV over their own body and they choose to allow the other person to also, I don't 614 00:34:05,200 --> 00:34:11,960 like have rights over their own, but choose to let that person into an intimate space 615 00:34:11,960 --> 00:34:12,960 as opposed to- 616 00:34:12,960 --> 00:34:13,960 That was very well said. 617 00:34:13,960 --> 00:34:14,960 Thank you. 618 00:34:14,960 --> 00:34:15,960 I could have said it a lot worse. 619 00:34:15,960 --> 00:34:18,040 I know. 620 00:34:18,040 --> 00:34:22,800 As opposed to I don't have any authority over my body and I'm going to give it to you and 621 00:34:22,800 --> 00:34:26,320 you're going to give it to me because- 622 00:34:26,320 --> 00:34:29,040 Or not even give it to the other person, just like you have it. 623 00:34:29,040 --> 00:34:30,920 I don't have authority over my body. 624 00:34:30,920 --> 00:34:32,520 I just think that's open to some abuse. 625 00:34:32,520 --> 00:34:34,640 So anyway, let's go back to Marge. 626 00:34:34,640 --> 00:34:41,880 The two sections that she talks about in this article are 1 Corinthians 11 13 and Ephesians 627 00:34:41,880 --> 00:34:42,880 5 23. 628 00:34:42,880 --> 00:34:47,160 So those are the two uses of the head body metaphor. 629 00:34:47,160 --> 00:34:53,020 So 1 Corinthians, she goes into that and she says it's not about marriage. 630 00:34:53,020 --> 00:34:56,860 Now we use this segment in weddings all the time, right? 631 00:34:56,860 --> 00:35:00,680 We love 1 Corinthians for that, but it's not about marriage. 632 00:35:00,680 --> 00:35:05,480 She says it's about the appearances of men and women who pray and prophesy in Corinthian 633 00:35:05,480 --> 00:35:07,340 assemblies. 634 00:35:07,340 --> 00:35:11,780 So that's why most English translations use man and woman as opposed to husband and wife 635 00:35:11,780 --> 00:35:13,640 in this verse because they're not talking- 636 00:35:13,640 --> 00:35:14,920 About husband and wife. 637 00:35:14,920 --> 00:35:15,920 Exactly. 638 00:35:15,920 --> 00:35:21,640 They like to take one thing and make it a blanket over everything. 639 00:35:21,640 --> 00:35:25,640 So 1 Corinthians 11, let's read from verse one here. 640 00:35:25,640 --> 00:35:29,400 It says, and this is the CSB, is the translation. 641 00:35:29,400 --> 00:35:32,160 It says, imitate me as I also imitate Christ. 642 00:35:32,160 --> 00:35:36,660 Now I praise you because you remember me in everything and hold fast to the traditions 643 00:35:36,660 --> 00:35:38,480 just as I delivered them to you. 644 00:35:38,480 --> 00:35:40,080 Now this is Paul speaking. 645 00:35:40,080 --> 00:35:41,400 Paul? 646 00:35:41,400 --> 00:35:42,860 The whole time it's Paul speaking. 647 00:35:42,860 --> 00:35:46,000 It's Alyssa speaking, not Paul. 648 00:35:46,000 --> 00:35:47,000 And now this is verse 3. 649 00:35:47,000 --> 00:35:50,640 But I want you to know that Christ is the head of every man and the man is the head 650 00:35:50,640 --> 00:35:53,800 of the woman and God is the head of Christ. 651 00:35:53,800 --> 00:35:58,640 Every man who prays or prophesies with something on his head dishonors his head. 652 00:35:58,640 --> 00:36:06,280 So she says that in this, again, the Greek word here is kafele. 653 00:36:06,280 --> 00:36:07,280 Nice pronunciation. 654 00:36:07,280 --> 00:36:08,280 Thank you. 655 00:36:08,280 --> 00:36:10,680 It's like you listened to a video right before we started shooting. 656 00:36:10,680 --> 00:36:13,360 Well, I listened to you the whole time we were. 657 00:36:13,360 --> 00:36:14,360 Kafele. 658 00:36:14,360 --> 00:36:19,600 So when it says, but I want you to know that Christ is the head of every man and the man 659 00:36:19,600 --> 00:36:22,600 is the head of the woman and God is the head of Christ. 660 00:36:22,600 --> 00:36:27,440 So first of all, not talking about marriage, just talking about people, humans. 661 00:36:27,440 --> 00:36:31,660 And again, here she's saying it's not talking about authority. 662 00:36:31,660 --> 00:36:34,360 It's easy for us to read that and say authority. 663 00:36:34,360 --> 00:36:38,080 Because that's our 2024 English speaking brain. 664 00:36:38,080 --> 00:36:39,080 Exactly. 665 00:36:39,080 --> 00:36:42,200 If you say I am the head of the company, that would mean you're the leader. 666 00:36:42,200 --> 00:36:43,200 I'm the leader. 667 00:36:43,200 --> 00:36:44,200 I'm the head of this family. 668 00:36:44,200 --> 00:36:45,200 I'm the leader of the family. 669 00:36:45,200 --> 00:36:46,200 I am the head of Brianna. 670 00:36:46,200 --> 00:36:48,760 I'm the leader of Brianna. 671 00:36:48,760 --> 00:36:52,200 Watch it, sister. 672 00:36:52,200 --> 00:36:55,960 But that's not what it's saying here. 673 00:36:55,960 --> 00:37:01,800 It's saying God created man and then he took man's rib and he created women. 674 00:37:01,800 --> 00:37:02,800 Exactly. 675 00:37:02,800 --> 00:37:08,280 So she's saying it's in this verse, it has a sense of firstness or origin. 676 00:37:08,280 --> 00:37:11,440 Which again, firstness does not equal authority. 677 00:37:11,440 --> 00:37:16,280 Well we talked about that in the last episode, that if firstness means authority. 678 00:37:16,280 --> 00:37:18,440 Actually two episodes ago, three episodes ago. 679 00:37:18,440 --> 00:37:19,440 It's unclear. 680 00:37:19,440 --> 00:37:21,520 A while ago, guys. 681 00:37:21,520 --> 00:37:22,520 I'm a submit to the dog. 682 00:37:22,520 --> 00:37:25,200 I'll say it again. 683 00:37:25,200 --> 00:37:26,960 All the animals were created first. 684 00:37:26,960 --> 00:37:33,280 So if firstness really is the be all end all, humans were last. 685 00:37:33,280 --> 00:37:34,880 Yeah, we should all be tree huggers. 686 00:37:34,880 --> 00:37:40,640 I mean, submit to the fish in the sea, submit to the sun, submit to, you know, like everything 687 00:37:40,640 --> 00:37:42,240 else came first. 688 00:37:42,240 --> 00:37:44,160 The dirt in the ground. 689 00:37:44,160 --> 00:37:48,120 You're really unimportant in that scenario. 690 00:37:48,120 --> 00:37:54,400 So firstness for early church writers wouldn't have meant leadership. 691 00:37:54,400 --> 00:37:56,800 It wouldn't have meant any of that. 692 00:37:56,800 --> 00:38:02,560 Additionally, if we're talking about firstness, Christ didn't come first. 693 00:38:02,560 --> 00:38:04,640 Christ came last, right? 694 00:38:04,640 --> 00:38:07,440 He put himself last, not first. 695 00:38:07,440 --> 00:38:08,440 Just saying. 696 00:38:08,440 --> 00:38:09,440 Deep. 697 00:38:09,440 --> 00:38:10,440 Thank you. 698 00:38:10,440 --> 00:38:11,440 That's what I was going for. 699 00:38:11,440 --> 00:38:14,920 So then the other verse that she talks about is Ephesians 5.23, right? 700 00:38:14,920 --> 00:38:17,240 Now this one is about marriage. 701 00:38:17,240 --> 00:38:23,200 And she says that it's amazing to her that the church has a strong doctrine of male headship 702 00:38:23,200 --> 00:38:24,720 because of this verse. 703 00:38:24,720 --> 00:38:27,520 So Ephesians 5.23, so let's read that. 704 00:38:27,520 --> 00:38:30,920 Now we've read this already, but because the husband is the head of the wife, as Christ 705 00:38:30,920 --> 00:38:34,800 is the head of the church, he is the savior of the body. 706 00:38:34,800 --> 00:38:39,080 She says, note that nowhere in scripture does it teach that the man is the head of the house 707 00:38:39,080 --> 00:38:40,460 or family. 708 00:38:40,460 --> 00:38:43,100 This is specifically talking about the wife. 709 00:38:43,100 --> 00:38:48,160 Now she goes on to talk about why that's not what it means too, but it doesn't say that 710 00:38:48,160 --> 00:38:49,740 he is the head of the family. 711 00:38:49,740 --> 00:38:56,400 It does not say that he's the decision maker or that he has more spiritual authority or 712 00:38:56,400 --> 00:38:59,520 spiritual responsibility. 713 00:38:59,520 --> 00:39:03,040 I hear that all the time. 714 00:39:03,040 --> 00:39:07,640 That has been interpreted so wrong in so many ways, like all the weddings that we've been 715 00:39:07,640 --> 00:39:10,800 to or church services that we've been to. 716 00:39:10,800 --> 00:39:20,400 Just because you are a man, because you have, you pushed out your boy parts in the womb, 717 00:39:20,400 --> 00:39:26,240 just because you had the strength to push out your boy parts in the womb, doesn't mean 718 00:39:26,240 --> 00:39:32,760 that you are more spiritual or more wise or anything over me. 719 00:39:32,760 --> 00:39:36,680 Well, I feel like I've gotten that thrown at me countless times that you didn't push 720 00:39:36,680 --> 00:39:38,480 out your boy parts in the womb. 721 00:39:38,480 --> 00:39:40,320 No, not that part. 722 00:39:40,320 --> 00:39:42,320 I've never heard anyone say that to you. 723 00:39:42,320 --> 00:39:45,760 You said it just yesterday. 724 00:39:45,760 --> 00:39:48,760 You're right, I did. 725 00:39:48,760 --> 00:39:56,160 It's like, Alyssa, you have no authority here. 726 00:39:56,160 --> 00:40:00,560 Something's gone wrong. 727 00:40:00,560 --> 00:40:09,040 Maybe they just didn't have the strength to push out their boobies in the womb. 728 00:40:09,040 --> 00:40:18,600 They didn't have the strength to suck it back in. 729 00:40:18,600 --> 00:40:25,040 Anyway, I've had that said to me before men have said this to me, I'll say specifically. 730 00:40:25,040 --> 00:40:31,840 When I get to heaven, I am more responsible for the spirituality of my family than my 731 00:40:31,840 --> 00:40:32,840 wife is. 732 00:40:32,840 --> 00:40:34,480 But where does it say that? 733 00:40:34,480 --> 00:40:36,280 Give me a verse. 734 00:40:36,280 --> 00:40:43,000 Ephesians, literally, even if you forget the Greek, all it says is the husband is the head 735 00:40:43,000 --> 00:40:44,800 of the wife. 736 00:40:44,800 --> 00:40:50,360 Why does that automatically mean now I have a place of authority in my entire family? 737 00:40:50,360 --> 00:40:53,400 And we're not just talking kids, we're talking grandkids. 738 00:40:53,400 --> 00:40:59,840 Like, he's this superior figure and he is the head of the whole family. 739 00:40:59,840 --> 00:41:03,840 And I want to go back to that one verse, I forget what it was, but we've said it a couple 740 00:41:03,840 --> 00:41:11,160 times where it was like, yes, the first woman was born from man, but don't you forget every 741 00:41:11,160 --> 00:41:14,600 other man after that was born from woman. 742 00:41:14,600 --> 00:41:16,220 We've referenced it many times. 743 00:41:16,220 --> 00:41:19,360 So that's Paul as well. 744 00:41:19,360 --> 00:41:22,640 Turning things upside down. 745 00:41:22,640 --> 00:41:28,360 Saying what was expected at the time and saying this is terrible. 746 00:41:28,360 --> 00:41:29,520 This is terrible. 747 00:41:29,520 --> 00:41:32,280 This is not what God wanted for you. 748 00:41:32,280 --> 00:41:36,560 Both men and women were created in the image of God. 749 00:41:36,560 --> 00:41:42,080 Both have equal value to God and you should treat each other as such. 750 00:41:42,080 --> 00:41:48,040 And on top of that, we talk a lot about how this impacts women because we are women and 751 00:41:48,040 --> 00:41:49,040 that is our experience. 752 00:41:49,040 --> 00:41:50,840 I am a woman. 753 00:41:50,840 --> 00:41:52,240 Hear me roar. 754 00:41:52,240 --> 00:41:55,720 We talk about how this impacts women because we're women and that's the experience that 755 00:41:55,720 --> 00:41:57,200 we have. 756 00:41:57,200 --> 00:42:03,720 But the system as it is now is not beneficial to men either. 757 00:42:03,720 --> 00:42:06,120 It seems like it is because... 758 00:42:06,120 --> 00:42:07,120 Power and authority. 759 00:42:07,120 --> 00:42:09,260 Yeah, it sounds great. 760 00:42:09,260 --> 00:42:14,440 But practically as human people, we need interaction. 761 00:42:14,440 --> 00:42:15,960 We need support. 762 00:42:15,960 --> 00:42:17,800 We need love. 763 00:42:17,800 --> 00:42:21,540 All of us, men and women require that. 764 00:42:21,540 --> 00:42:28,840 Now I've heard many people say that women need love and men need respect. 765 00:42:28,840 --> 00:42:33,000 As though the other person doesn't need those things too. 766 00:42:33,000 --> 00:42:36,040 Men need love and women need respect. 767 00:42:36,040 --> 00:42:41,920 And we need to stop lying to our boys and our men and saying that they're not allowed 768 00:42:41,920 --> 00:42:43,280 to have emotions. 769 00:42:43,280 --> 00:42:45,840 They're not allowed to want love. 770 00:42:45,840 --> 00:42:48,640 They're not allowed to cry. 771 00:42:48,640 --> 00:42:53,080 We're just dehumanizing men. 772 00:42:53,080 --> 00:43:00,100 If you have to be the leader a hundred percent of the time, when do you get to break down? 773 00:43:00,100 --> 00:43:01,560 When do you get to fail? 774 00:43:01,560 --> 00:43:04,920 You have to believe that there's so much anxiety and depression. 775 00:43:04,920 --> 00:43:12,320 If you feel like I have to succeed, I have to be the best at everything I do. 776 00:43:12,320 --> 00:43:16,860 And if I fail, I screw over not just me, but my entire family. 777 00:43:16,860 --> 00:43:17,860 And God. 778 00:43:17,860 --> 00:43:24,200 Well, they say men are way less likely to seek counseling, to seek therapy and talk 779 00:43:24,200 --> 00:43:25,360 to someone. 780 00:43:25,360 --> 00:43:33,340 In large part because of this toxic masculinity attitude, this is not benefiting anybody. 781 00:43:33,340 --> 00:43:39,860 When you look at marriages, Christian marriages, sincerely I have yet to see a submissive marriage 782 00:43:39,860 --> 00:43:43,200 that functions in a healthy way. 783 00:43:43,200 --> 00:43:45,320 Not ever in my life. 784 00:43:45,320 --> 00:43:48,520 And we've been surrounded by them. 785 00:43:48,520 --> 00:43:51,320 Left right up down. 786 00:43:51,320 --> 00:43:56,080 If this was God's perfect plan, and I feel like we harp on this, but if this was God's 787 00:43:56,080 --> 00:44:00,600 perfect plan, why would he make it so hard? 788 00:44:00,600 --> 00:44:06,980 Why would he make it detrimental to women and men? 789 00:44:06,980 --> 00:44:10,160 When he made us because he loved us. 790 00:44:10,160 --> 00:44:12,000 He loves women. 791 00:44:12,000 --> 00:44:13,560 He loves men. 792 00:44:13,560 --> 00:44:14,560 It doesn't make sense. 793 00:44:14,560 --> 00:44:22,200 I think we forget that so often, particularly in the more Baptist conservative traditions. 794 00:44:22,200 --> 00:44:24,000 We take the love out of it. 795 00:44:24,000 --> 00:44:25,000 We do. 796 00:44:25,000 --> 00:44:26,280 We absolutely do. 797 00:44:26,280 --> 00:44:30,140 We forget that God created us in love and care. 798 00:44:30,140 --> 00:44:34,120 We replace love with rules and regulations. 799 00:44:34,120 --> 00:44:35,680 Absolutely. 800 00:44:35,680 --> 00:44:42,200 Because your faith and spirituality is completely tied to how well you follow those rules. 801 00:44:42,200 --> 00:44:47,520 Well, it seems a little bit more comfortable on the surface if all I have to do is follow 802 00:44:47,520 --> 00:44:49,440 X, Y, and Z. 803 00:44:49,440 --> 00:44:50,880 But it's impossible. 804 00:44:50,880 --> 00:44:52,080 And it says it in the Bible. 805 00:44:52,080 --> 00:44:54,480 We were born sinners. 806 00:44:54,480 --> 00:45:00,480 But because of God, we're able to have that relationship because Jesus died on the cross 807 00:45:00,480 --> 00:45:03,420 for me and you and my brother and my dad. 808 00:45:03,420 --> 00:45:05,000 We're all on equal footing. 809 00:45:05,000 --> 00:45:06,000 And it's simple. 810 00:45:06,000 --> 00:45:10,280 That's the thing is it's so simple. 811 00:45:10,280 --> 00:45:16,320 God Christ's love and he will guide you in the path that he wants you to go in. 812 00:45:16,320 --> 00:45:19,840 He will give you passion for the things that he wants you to do, just like he's given you 813 00:45:19,840 --> 00:45:23,440 and I a passion for this particular project. 814 00:45:23,440 --> 00:45:28,840 And I believe that he is leading us down each episode. 815 00:45:28,840 --> 00:45:32,840 We've talked through a lot of topics and sometimes I feel like, oh man, we're just going off 816 00:45:32,840 --> 00:45:33,840 the rails. 817 00:45:33,840 --> 00:45:34,840 Oh yeah. 818 00:45:34,840 --> 00:45:37,720 Today in particular, we're going a little off the rails. 819 00:45:37,720 --> 00:45:43,800 But at the same time, things keep happening that affirm to us that this was the topic 820 00:45:43,800 --> 00:45:45,440 we were supposed to talk about today. 821 00:45:45,440 --> 00:45:46,820 Yeah, absolutely. 822 00:45:46,820 --> 00:45:51,360 And something that we're saying right now is going to speak to someone else. 823 00:45:51,360 --> 00:45:53,580 It's just simple. 824 00:45:53,580 --> 00:45:59,840 Sometimes following God, most of the time following God is just easy. 825 00:45:59,840 --> 00:46:04,000 Not because the thing you're doing is easy, but because the faith should just flow out 826 00:46:04,000 --> 00:46:05,680 of you. 827 00:46:05,680 --> 00:46:10,380 And marriage should be easy. 828 00:46:10,380 --> 00:46:15,080 Not because the day to day life of marriage is easy, not because fighting with your spouse 829 00:46:15,080 --> 00:46:20,720 is easy or having differences of opinions is easy, but because what marriage is supposed 830 00:46:20,720 --> 00:46:23,760 to be should just flow through you. 831 00:46:23,760 --> 00:46:29,200 And I think it's hard to speak to that from my perspective too, because I'm not married. 832 00:46:29,200 --> 00:46:34,360 But maybe that's why I'm not married is because it seemed so hard. 833 00:46:34,360 --> 00:46:39,720 It seems like the conservative Christian world makes it look impossible. 834 00:46:39,720 --> 00:46:41,880 There's not a lot of love there. 835 00:46:41,880 --> 00:46:47,240 Now I do have some good, like mom and dad, they love each other. 836 00:46:47,240 --> 00:46:50,080 But I wouldn't want that for myself. 837 00:46:50,080 --> 00:46:53,840 I don't want a man thinking that he's just a leader over me. 838 00:46:53,840 --> 00:46:59,720 I want a man who's a partner who cares, loves and respects me as much as I do for him. 839 00:46:59,720 --> 00:47:03,460 Do you perchance want a man who stands beside you? 840 00:47:03,460 --> 00:47:05,240 Not in front of or behind me. 841 00:47:05,240 --> 00:47:06,240 Is that Shania Twain? 842 00:47:06,240 --> 00:47:07,240 No. 843 00:47:07,240 --> 00:47:08,240 Who is that? 844 00:47:08,240 --> 00:47:09,240 It's Jodie Messina. 845 00:47:09,240 --> 00:47:10,240 It's an old one. 846 00:47:10,240 --> 00:47:14,560 I gave me a man who was holding me, not on me. 847 00:47:14,560 --> 00:47:15,560 Thank you. 848 00:47:15,560 --> 00:47:16,560 I needed you to sing at least once. 849 00:47:16,560 --> 00:47:17,560 And I'll give all the love. 850 00:47:17,560 --> 00:47:18,560 That's a good song. 851 00:47:18,560 --> 00:47:19,560 That is a good song. 852 00:47:19,560 --> 00:47:21,400 I think it's on the playlist. 853 00:47:21,400 --> 00:47:28,440 I think that's so important because no one wants to walk into a relationship, even people 854 00:47:28,440 --> 00:47:34,640 who believe wholeheartedly in female submission, no one wants to walk into a relationship where 855 00:47:34,640 --> 00:47:38,840 they feel devalued or where they feel less than. 856 00:47:38,840 --> 00:47:39,840 Like property. 857 00:47:39,840 --> 00:47:40,840 Yeah. 858 00:47:40,840 --> 00:47:43,040 Nobody wants that. 859 00:47:43,040 --> 00:47:49,400 Even if you are like hook, line and sinker as a woman, I should be submitting to my husband. 860 00:47:49,400 --> 00:47:50,400 Whatever. 861 00:47:50,400 --> 00:47:52,440 Even if you're all the way down the path. 862 00:47:52,440 --> 00:47:56,400 I guess I can't speak for everyone, but I can't imagine that any of those women are 863 00:47:56,400 --> 00:48:01,480 picturing their lives and they're thinking, yeah, this is going to suck. 864 00:48:01,480 --> 00:48:10,380 Well, we're obsessed with romance, like rom-coms and romantic movies and books and stuff. 865 00:48:10,380 --> 00:48:12,320 Why do you think people are obsessed with that? 866 00:48:12,320 --> 00:48:17,200 They're obsessed with the idea of love and not just authority. 867 00:48:17,200 --> 00:48:24,320 And breaking down that word of love because Paul calls men to love their wives. 868 00:48:24,320 --> 00:48:29,440 So let's break down that word of love to be cherished. 869 00:48:29,440 --> 00:48:32,160 It's to be truly adored. 870 00:48:32,160 --> 00:48:37,180 I think we simplify it so much by saying, well, you should put this person's needs above 871 00:48:37,180 --> 00:48:38,180 your own. 872 00:48:38,180 --> 00:48:39,320 You should die for them. 873 00:48:39,320 --> 00:48:40,540 You should whatever. 874 00:48:40,540 --> 00:48:48,680 But think about not just the act of that because actions are fairly simple, right? 875 00:48:48,680 --> 00:48:55,040 But again, for something to flow through you instead of, all right, this is such a drudgery. 876 00:48:55,040 --> 00:49:01,800 I'm going to put this person's needs above my own to cherish that person enough. 877 00:49:01,800 --> 00:49:04,500 Of course I'm going to put them above me. 878 00:49:04,500 --> 00:49:09,680 For example, Nathan, my husband, every single morning gets up with the kids. 879 00:49:09,680 --> 00:49:10,680 It's summertime now. 880 00:49:10,680 --> 00:49:17,760 So my daughter's out of school and it's a rough time over here, guys. 881 00:49:17,760 --> 00:49:19,320 It's like boredom. 882 00:49:19,320 --> 00:49:24,360 We're working through the early summer boredom where we figure out what the schedule for 883 00:49:24,360 --> 00:49:26,920 the rest of the summer is going to be. 884 00:49:26,920 --> 00:49:33,040 And so the kids get up so early and I am not a morning person. 885 00:49:33,040 --> 00:49:34,700 I don't talk in the morning. 886 00:49:34,700 --> 00:49:36,120 Don't interact with me in the morning. 887 00:49:36,120 --> 00:49:37,600 I know I'm the worst. 888 00:49:37,600 --> 00:49:41,680 You'd think we would be because we go to bed so early, but no. 889 00:49:41,680 --> 00:49:43,520 Have you ever heard some, I think it was on a meme. 890 00:49:43,520 --> 00:49:48,120 It was like, I'm not a night owl or an early bird. 891 00:49:48,120 --> 00:49:51,040 I'm an always tired pigeon or something. 892 00:49:51,040 --> 00:49:53,040 I think I see that. 893 00:49:53,040 --> 00:49:56,520 I'm an always tired pigeon. 894 00:49:56,520 --> 00:50:01,680 So Nathan gets up in the mornings with the kids every single morning because he knows 895 00:50:01,680 --> 00:50:03,080 that's rough on me. 896 00:50:03,080 --> 00:50:06,840 Like that I just, I don't get up and function well and he's got to get up for work. 897 00:50:06,840 --> 00:50:10,760 So he gets the kids up and they all go downstairs and my daughter puts some pancakes that I've 898 00:50:10,760 --> 00:50:15,840 pre-made into the toaster and they all just hang out for a little while while I become 899 00:50:15,840 --> 00:50:19,600 human. 900 00:50:19,600 --> 00:50:22,200 And I think that's what it's talking about. 901 00:50:22,200 --> 00:50:23,200 It sounds so simple. 902 00:50:23,200 --> 00:50:29,320 It sounds so silly, but to love someone enough that just putting them ahead of yourself is 903 00:50:29,320 --> 00:50:30,320 just natural. 904 00:50:30,320 --> 00:50:34,160 And I guess that's what I think marriage should be. 905 00:50:34,160 --> 00:50:39,160 And so often it's not, and it's not even an expectation. 906 00:50:39,160 --> 00:50:45,920 I think if you're going with what God wants, it should be good, right? 907 00:50:45,920 --> 00:50:49,600 It should be the best God has to offer. 908 00:50:49,600 --> 00:50:54,240 Not to say that following God doesn't have its trials and tribulation, but look for the 909 00:50:54,240 --> 00:50:56,200 good, find the good. 910 00:50:56,200 --> 00:51:00,600 And God's perfect plan, we use that phrase all the time. 911 00:51:00,600 --> 00:51:07,160 So God's perfect plan, as in what he wanted humanity to be before sin entered the world. 912 00:51:07,160 --> 00:51:09,600 God's perfect plan should be easy. 913 00:51:09,600 --> 00:51:12,360 It should be perfect. 914 00:51:12,360 --> 00:51:17,960 So if this is God's perfect plan for marriage, we shouldn't have a bunch of women, miserable, 915 00:51:17,960 --> 00:51:23,760 writing blog articles on, you know, I thought submission was going to be terrible, but I 916 00:51:23,760 --> 00:51:30,160 guess now that I'm living in it, nobody died. 917 00:51:30,160 --> 00:51:35,840 And that's the best thing that you can say about your marriage is like, it's alright. 918 00:51:35,840 --> 00:51:41,400 It makes me sad because I think Christians are getting divorced, I believe statistically 919 00:51:41,400 --> 00:51:44,560 at a higher rate than non-Christians. 920 00:51:44,560 --> 00:51:46,960 And it's because of this garbage. 921 00:51:46,960 --> 00:51:50,940 It's because of this stupidness. 922 00:51:50,940 --> 00:51:54,820 If this was God's perfect plan, it would work. 923 00:51:54,820 --> 00:51:55,820 God isn't stupid. 924 00:51:55,820 --> 00:51:59,920 Whoa, watch your mouth. 925 00:51:59,920 --> 00:52:01,800 God didn't make a bad plan for us. 926 00:52:01,800 --> 00:52:05,620 He made a good plan for us because he loves us. 927 00:52:05,620 --> 00:52:08,040 And we're choosing to make it complicated. 928 00:52:08,040 --> 00:52:12,040 That's what humans do. 929 00:52:12,040 --> 00:52:14,240 So let's stop. 930 00:52:14,240 --> 00:52:15,240 That's right. 931 00:52:15,240 --> 00:52:16,240 You've heard it here first. 932 00:52:16,240 --> 00:52:17,240 We're stopping. 933 00:52:17,240 --> 00:52:18,240 Well, we are. 934 00:52:18,240 --> 00:52:20,920 I don't know what you're doing over there. 935 00:52:20,920 --> 00:52:24,800 So anyway, back to the cycle. 936 00:52:24,800 --> 00:52:28,920 So our good friend Marge, in her conclusion, she says that headship is a term that does 937 00:52:28,920 --> 00:52:33,160 not appear in the Bible, yet male headship or male authority has been part of the church's 938 00:52:33,160 --> 00:52:34,920 dogma for centuries. 939 00:52:34,920 --> 00:52:39,280 This is because many have interpreted scripture while being influenced by the prevailing patriarchal 940 00:52:39,280 --> 00:52:40,280 culture. 941 00:52:40,280 --> 00:52:42,680 That's not easy to say. 942 00:52:42,680 --> 00:52:44,320 No, it's not. 943 00:52:44,320 --> 00:52:48,440 God has tolerated patriarchy in the past and he continues to tolerate it. 944 00:52:48,440 --> 00:52:53,600 But true equality and mutuality are the biblical ideals that kingdom people should be aiming 945 00:52:53,600 --> 00:52:56,520 for and aspiring to. 946 00:52:56,520 --> 00:53:00,880 Male headship and male primacy do not reflect the gospel message of freedom and equality 947 00:53:00,880 --> 00:53:03,520 for all people. 948 00:53:03,520 --> 00:53:06,160 I want to just hang out there real quick. 949 00:53:06,160 --> 00:53:08,620 Freedom and equality for all people. 950 00:53:08,620 --> 00:53:09,620 Freedom in Christ. 951 00:53:09,620 --> 00:53:11,180 We talk about that all the time. 952 00:53:11,180 --> 00:53:16,080 But we are not free in the way that we've set up marriage. 953 00:53:16,080 --> 00:53:20,060 And I think that's true for women and for men. 954 00:53:20,060 --> 00:53:26,280 If we're stuck in these boxes that we've created for ourselves and you have to be this type 955 00:53:26,280 --> 00:53:32,460 of woman or you have to be this type of man, there is no freedom in that. 956 00:53:32,460 --> 00:53:36,120 It's pretty hard for God to use you when you're sitting in a box. 957 00:53:36,120 --> 00:53:42,920 Throughout this article, I love how she takes everything that we've thought, she addresses 958 00:53:42,920 --> 00:53:50,040 it, and then she says, okay, but if you really look at what Paul actually wrote in the language 959 00:53:50,040 --> 00:53:54,180 that Paul was speaking in, here's what he said. 960 00:53:54,180 --> 00:53:56,600 And I don't know how you can refute that. 961 00:53:56,600 --> 00:53:57,600 You can't. 962 00:53:57,600 --> 00:54:02,880 Okay, if you have the opportunity to look up her blog, there are so many articles in 963 00:54:02,880 --> 00:54:06,240 here that are so well researched. 964 00:54:06,240 --> 00:54:10,600 I think everybody should do this kind of research. 965 00:54:10,600 --> 00:54:16,200 Figure out why the Bible is saying what you think it's saying. 966 00:54:16,200 --> 00:54:17,280 Dig deep into it. 967 00:54:17,280 --> 00:54:18,280 Research it. 968 00:54:18,280 --> 00:54:22,520 Look at people like Marge and Beth and Sheila. 969 00:54:22,520 --> 00:54:24,320 I think they're great sources. 970 00:54:24,320 --> 00:54:31,760 I think for so many of us, our interaction with the Bible is church on Sunday and maybe 971 00:54:31,760 --> 00:54:37,680 doing your daily devotions where you read from our daily bread. 972 00:54:37,680 --> 00:54:40,320 That takes me back to a place. 973 00:54:40,320 --> 00:54:42,040 There's got to be a song that starts with that. 974 00:54:42,040 --> 00:54:45,160 I just walked in and found you here without that look up on your face. 975 00:54:45,160 --> 00:54:46,160 Thank you. 976 00:54:46,160 --> 00:54:50,280 So you might do your little devotional and read a couple of verses or whatever, but you 977 00:54:50,280 --> 00:54:57,240 essentially just hear what that devotional or that pastor tells you about it. 978 00:54:57,240 --> 00:55:01,000 And that can really create a lot of bias. 979 00:55:01,000 --> 00:55:07,400 So you do see a lot of this gender bias because that's what they want you to hear. 980 00:55:07,400 --> 00:55:11,200 I don't want to have this like, they want this, but at the same time, that's what the 981 00:55:11,200 --> 00:55:17,960 patriarchal structure that has taken over so much of the church wants you to hear. 982 00:55:17,960 --> 00:55:24,160 I would consider this kind of research and digging deep into these topics, that is also 983 00:55:24,160 --> 00:55:25,600 devotional. 984 00:55:25,600 --> 00:55:28,560 That's also spending time with God. 985 00:55:28,560 --> 00:55:32,200 When you're researching these things, first of all, this article in itself has lots of 986 00:55:32,200 --> 00:55:37,840 verses in it, but jump out of the article and read the whole passage because that's 987 00:55:37,840 --> 00:55:41,480 so important to read the whole thing in context. 988 00:55:41,480 --> 00:55:46,160 Sometimes on the podcast, we'll pull out just a verse because we're only here for an hour 989 00:55:46,160 --> 00:55:54,800 and I don't know how to read. 990 00:55:54,800 --> 00:55:57,800 And be in prayer while you're reading these things. 991 00:55:57,800 --> 00:56:02,560 There's a podcaster that I listened to, I think she doesn't have her podcast anymore, 992 00:56:02,560 --> 00:56:04,560 but her name is Blessing. 993 00:56:04,560 --> 00:56:10,520 And she talks about similar to what we're talking about now, but she said she's in constant 994 00:56:10,520 --> 00:56:12,660 communication with God. 995 00:56:12,660 --> 00:56:17,760 It's not just a prayer that she prays before she eats and before she goes to bed, her whole 996 00:56:17,760 --> 00:56:18,760 life. 997 00:56:18,760 --> 00:56:23,400 She's just talking to God in her head, like her inner dialogue. 998 00:56:23,400 --> 00:56:25,800 And I think that's a really cool way to think about it. 999 00:56:25,800 --> 00:56:28,700 You are supposed to have a relationship with God. 1000 00:56:28,700 --> 00:56:34,200 And if you're stifling that relationship to only include Sundays and 10 minutes for a 1001 00:56:34,200 --> 00:56:37,040 devotional, it's not as impactful as it could be. 1002 00:56:37,040 --> 00:56:39,760 I think the church has instilled a lot of fear. 1003 00:56:39,760 --> 00:56:43,960 And you can see this through history where the Catholic Church didn't for a long time 1004 00:56:43,960 --> 00:56:47,320 want their people to read the Bible. 1005 00:56:47,320 --> 00:56:49,860 They wanted it to be interpreted through the priests. 1006 00:56:49,860 --> 00:56:55,440 And I think that in a lot of ways, the Protestant Christian Church has done the same thing. 1007 00:56:55,440 --> 00:57:00,120 They don't say don't read your Bible, but it's don't really look any further than the 1008 00:57:00,120 --> 00:57:02,680 actual pages of your Bible. 1009 00:57:02,680 --> 00:57:08,440 Read the words as I've interpreted them for you and don't question them. 1010 00:57:08,440 --> 00:57:09,960 Don't look into the history of it. 1011 00:57:09,960 --> 00:57:12,280 Don't look into the Greek roots of the words. 1012 00:57:12,280 --> 00:57:14,960 Don't look into any of those things. 1013 00:57:14,960 --> 00:57:15,960 Just read the pages. 1014 00:57:15,960 --> 00:57:17,200 It'll be fine. 1015 00:57:17,200 --> 00:57:19,920 And so you do wind up with all this bias. 1016 00:57:19,920 --> 00:57:25,240 And I think we do it and I've heard some people say this where like, well, that's going to 1017 00:57:25,240 --> 00:57:29,160 distort the Bible if you look up the history, if you look up whatever. 1018 00:57:29,160 --> 00:57:32,360 But I think it makes it more miraculous. 1019 00:57:32,360 --> 00:57:33,360 It's real. 1020 00:57:33,360 --> 00:57:34,360 Yeah. 1021 00:57:34,360 --> 00:57:39,040 And when you can read it the way that it was originally intended to the people it was originally 1022 00:57:39,040 --> 00:57:41,720 intended to, that's powerful. 1023 00:57:41,720 --> 00:57:47,720 Because we can pick up on things like Paul talking to a very patriarchal society and 1024 00:57:47,720 --> 00:57:53,720 taking things from the time, writing out exactly what that person said, what that philosopher 1025 00:57:53,720 --> 00:57:56,320 said or whatever, and saying, no, this is stupid. 1026 00:57:56,320 --> 00:57:57,320 Yeah. 1027 00:57:57,320 --> 00:57:58,920 We're going to fix this. 1028 00:57:58,920 --> 00:58:03,240 And if you don't have any historical context, you don't know that it was a Greek philosopher 1029 00:58:03,240 --> 00:58:07,120 or a Roman philosopher or whoever that said the first thing. 1030 00:58:07,120 --> 00:58:08,120 You don't know that. 1031 00:58:08,120 --> 00:58:09,120 You don't know that. 1032 00:58:09,120 --> 00:58:10,620 But the people in Paul's time would have known that. 1033 00:58:10,620 --> 00:58:13,200 So it's important to jump back. 1034 00:58:13,200 --> 00:58:15,200 And it just makes the Bible so much richer. 1035 00:58:15,200 --> 00:58:18,400 And I think we're missing out in a lot of ways if we don't do that. 1036 00:58:18,400 --> 00:58:21,440 We want to be wealthy with knowledge as well. 1037 00:58:21,440 --> 00:58:22,440 So I think we'll wrap it up now. 1038 00:58:22,440 --> 00:58:23,440 Yeah. 1039 00:58:23,440 --> 00:58:24,440 You have anything else to say? 1040 00:58:24,440 --> 00:58:25,440 You have more songs to sing? 1041 00:58:25,440 --> 00:58:29,680 No, but I don't like the way you said wrap it up after we've been talking about pushing 1042 00:58:29,680 --> 00:58:32,040 out our private parts. 1043 00:58:32,040 --> 00:58:34,000 You have made- it's not me. 1044 00:58:34,000 --> 00:58:36,600 You have made like 12 inappropriate jokes. 1045 00:58:36,600 --> 00:58:39,120 But yeah, so we will see you guys next week. 1046 00:58:39,120 --> 00:58:41,760 We hope you've been enjoying our mini episodes as well. 1047 00:58:41,760 --> 00:58:45,400 I think two will have gone out by this point. 1048 00:58:45,400 --> 00:58:46,620 And we hope you've been enjoying them. 1049 00:58:46,620 --> 00:58:53,240 We wanted to break up some of the really intense heaviness of the bigger episodes. 1050 00:58:53,240 --> 00:58:55,080 Also because my brain just can't take it. 1051 00:58:55,080 --> 00:58:56,080 Yeah. 1052 00:58:56,080 --> 00:59:00,520 So we're doing mini episodes on current- I don't want to say current events. 1053 00:59:00,520 --> 00:59:04,160 No, just like whatever suits our fancy. 1054 00:59:04,160 --> 00:59:10,600 And we're trying to record them a little bit more in real time so that we can talk about 1055 00:59:10,600 --> 00:59:13,800 things like Harrison Bucker's speech and- 1056 00:59:13,800 --> 00:59:14,800 But Kurt. 1057 00:59:14,800 --> 00:59:21,040 You know, see, I cut that out of the last episode. 1058 00:59:21,040 --> 00:59:25,920 And things like that so that you can hear just our opinions on things and our thoughts. 1059 00:59:25,920 --> 00:59:28,360 And those ones aren't as research based. 1060 00:59:28,360 --> 00:59:29,920 They're just kind of fun for us to do. 1061 00:59:29,920 --> 00:59:30,920 Yeah. 1062 00:59:30,920 --> 00:59:31,920 And we like to chat. 1063 00:59:31,920 --> 00:59:32,920 We like to chat. 1064 00:59:32,920 --> 00:59:35,200 I don't know if you've noticed. 1065 00:59:35,200 --> 00:59:36,680 Perhaps it's been unclear. 1066 00:59:36,680 --> 00:59:40,240 Oh, wait, follow us on Instagram and TikTok. 1067 00:59:40,240 --> 00:59:42,520 Brianna is very funny on TikTok. 1068 00:59:42,520 --> 00:59:43,520 I'm brilliant. 1069 00:59:43,520 --> 00:59:49,600 So if you search, it's we dot r dot more dot four. 1070 00:59:49,600 --> 00:59:50,600 No dot after the four. 1071 00:59:50,600 --> 00:59:51,600 I don't know. 1072 00:59:51,600 --> 00:59:52,880 We dot more dot more dot- 1073 00:59:52,880 --> 00:59:55,160 No, you did that before. 1074 00:59:55,160 --> 00:59:59,760 We dot r dot more four. 1075 00:59:59,760 --> 01:00:04,280 I'm sure if you look up like we are more something, it'll pop up. 1076 01:00:04,280 --> 01:00:05,680 We hashtag we are more a lot. 1077 01:00:05,680 --> 01:00:09,000 So if you hashtag it and then you then we're there. 1078 01:00:09,000 --> 01:00:10,000 Follow us over there. 1079 01:00:10,000 --> 01:00:11,000 We're pretty funny. 1080 01:00:11,000 --> 01:00:12,880 We don't really understand how to work TikTok, but I'm getting there. 1081 01:00:12,880 --> 01:00:13,880 She's figuring it out quickly. 1082 01:00:13,880 --> 01:00:14,880 She's brilliant. 1083 01:00:14,880 --> 01:00:15,880 Okay, love you. 1084 01:00:15,880 --> 01:00:16,880 Bye. 1085 01:00:16,880 --> 01:00:17,880 Love you. 1086 01:00:17,880 --> 01:00:31,760 Bye.