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Hi.

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Joining me today

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is Jonas Benner.

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Jonas Benner is a quant at

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a MP, and he played a key

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role in a and p investing.

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I think they started with 27

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million and then increased

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that to 50 million worth of

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Bitcoin futures last year.

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I remember that was

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circulated in the news

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and I didn't know that.

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This is the man behind it.

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Um, then you did a talk

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at Bitcoin Alive about

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this, and I know that

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some of your colleagues

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also came to support you.

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Since then, you've also

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traveled to Prague to speak

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at the 2025 conference there.

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I listened to that as well.

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I've done my due diligence.

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And then finally, you were on

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a podcast with Shane Oliver,

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which I absolutely loved

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because it was just such a

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great conversation between

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such a respectable economist

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and someone who's, you know,

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quite young in the company

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and, uh, an expert in Bitcoin.

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And the conversation was

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just so good to listen

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to from both sides.

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So nus, welcome

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to Honest Money.

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Thanks for having me, Anya.

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Yay.

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And just be before we move

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on, actually, uh, I'm not the

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only one at a MP who's behind

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the, the Bitcoin allocation.

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I would say in the initial

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allocation, I probably

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actually played a minor role.

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It's probably my boss,

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Stuart Elliot, who came

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to Bitcoin Alive as well.

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He was heavily involved

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and because he is the head

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of portfolio management,

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um, his word obviously

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carries a lot more weight

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than me just being a quant

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within the investment team.

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Um, so he, he, he is a

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Bitcoin as well and he

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was very involved in

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making that decision.

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And then our CIO Anna, she was

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also super supportive of it.

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So there was a whole

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team at a and p that

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was supportive of it.

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Um, I just happened to be

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the Bitcoin Maxie who's

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been doing a lot of the

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education and stuff and

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pushing Bitcoin a fair bit.

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But, um, just, just

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wanted to make that clear.

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I love it, and I'm glad you

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said that because this is

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also the discrepancy I picked

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up on because during Bitcoin

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alive, you did give a lot

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of credit to your team, but

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then it was actually Shane

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that said that you played

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the key role in his podcast.

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So I'm like, which story is

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true, but it doesn't matter.

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I love your humility and um,

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I, I'm so pleased to hear

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that there is so many people

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in such a. Large Australian

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institution who's, you

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know, very mainstream, um,

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starting to be open-minded

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to this, you know, up

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and coming asset class.

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It has been around

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for 16, 17 years now.

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And, uh, you know, we've

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moved past this being,

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you know, a speculative

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or internet sort of magic

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token to something that is

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really gaining institutional

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interest worldwide.

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And I would love to hear,

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maybe start with your

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personal journey into Bitcoin.

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How did you, what, what made

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you, what, what made you

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become a Bitcoin essentially?

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Yeah.

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Yeah.

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That's a good question.

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Um, I first really was

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exposed to Bitcoin in 2016.

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I was working at, I was doing

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an internship at Deloitte

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in Germany at the time.

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I just got done with my

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bachelor's, um, was doing

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an internship and at the

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time, Deloitte, I think it

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was based in Berlin, they

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had a blockchain center

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and they came to Disor,

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which is where I was doing

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my internship to give a

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presentation about Bitcoin.

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And I, I had never heard of

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Bitcoin at that time, but

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a lot of the other recent

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graduates who were working

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with me were like, oh,

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Jonas, you should come along.

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They're gonna talk

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about Bitcoin.

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I was like, I don't even

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know what that is, but

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yeah, sure, I'll come along.

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And then went along to the

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presentation and it was

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really, really interesting.

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But because I'd never heard of

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it, everything that they said

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was completely foreign, but

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they focused really heavily on

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explaining what the blockchain

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was and how it worked.

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And that kind of

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clicked to me, and it

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seemed kind of cool.

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But then the problem was

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a lot of the partners at

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Deloitte who I was working

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with were throwing super

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critical questions, uh, to, to

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the team that was presenting

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about Bitcoin and blockchain.

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And because I didn't

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really know much about it

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at the time and I really

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respected the opinions

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of, you know, the partners

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who I was working under.

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'cause I thought they

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were super smart and I

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had it all figured out.

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Um, I I, I started being

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critical of it as well.

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'cause I was like, oh

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yeah, I kind of understand

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why blockchain could

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be revolutionary, but

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this whole Bitcoin thing

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I'm, I'm not sure about.

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And just completely

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dismissed it.

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And then my brother started

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getting really into it.

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My younger brother actually

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started getting really

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into it in 2017 and like

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kept telling me about it,

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but I was always like,

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eh, still a bit skeptical.

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And then only in 2020 did I

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really like during COVID start

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really paying attention to it.

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And listen to my first

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Michael Sailor podcast.

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On the, the What is Money

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show with Robert Breed Love.

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Listen, listen to the

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wholesaler series in lockdown.

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'cause I had

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nothing else to do.

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And, uh, it, it

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clicked a bit more.

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But at that time, um,

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that's when I first started

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investing in Bitcoin.

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But at that time, all the

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other outgoings seemed really

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interesting to me as well.

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And I was listening to

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podcasts by Charles Hoskinson,

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the founder of Ano, and

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thought he sounded really

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brilliant and what they

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were doing was really cool.

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I was also, 'cause I'm a

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programmer, I started te

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started teaching myself

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Solidity, which is the

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smart contract language

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that you use to write smart

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contracts on Ethereum.

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So I was really into

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that whole thing.

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And then I think only late

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2021, early 2022, when I

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reread the Bitcoin standard

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for the second time, um,

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something clicked and I

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was like, whoa, whoa, whoa.

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Bitcoin is the only thing

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that really makes sense.

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Bitcoin is the only blockchain

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that really tries to

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solve a real problem that

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we have and potentially

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the biggest problem that

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we have in the world.

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Which is fixing the

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broken monetary system

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that we have and, and

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introducing Honest Money.

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I mean, that's the

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whole name of your show.

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You know, something that,

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um, can't be manipulated.

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Something where dishonest

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actors can't take control

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of it and abuse their

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power over the population.

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Something where we have a

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more equitable, equitable,

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more egalitarian money again.

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Um, and, and really

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understanding all of that.

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And I was like, wow, okay.

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Um, Bitcoin is a thing for me.

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And since then it's

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been Bitcoin only.

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Yeah, I absolutely

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love that story.

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And you know, I've heard

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you talk a lot about, um,

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the, the monetary history.

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Uh, you know, some people

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find that particular subjects

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so boring, but I feel like

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for me that was one of the

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big light bulb moments in

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seeing in how Bitcoin fits

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into that entire evolution.

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So I would love to hear you.

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Explain it.

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Yeah.

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How like you, you can pick

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how ever many centuries

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you wanna go back.

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Well, you probably have

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to go back pretty far.

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And before I get started

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on that journey, I think

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you're completely right.

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I think without understanding

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the history of money and why

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monetary goods have monetized

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in the past and why maybe one

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good replaced another form of

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money that we previously used,

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like why all of that happened.

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If you don't have that

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understanding, it's really

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hard to understand how

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Bitcoin fits into the whole

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picture because Bitcoin has

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superior properties to the

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last freely chosen money

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that we had, which was gold.

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But if you don't understand

292
00:07:37,791 --> 00:07:38,666
why we even ended up

293
00:07:38,666 --> 00:07:40,416
with gold, it's really

294
00:07:40,416 --> 00:07:41,458
hard to understand why

295
00:07:41,500 --> 00:07:43,083
Bitcoin is so promising.

296
00:07:43,083 --> 00:07:43,875
So that's the first thing

297
00:07:43,875 --> 00:07:45,166
I wanna say is you don't

298
00:07:45,166 --> 00:07:46,041
just need to understand

299
00:07:46,583 --> 00:07:47,833
what the history looks like.

300
00:07:47,833 --> 00:07:48,708
You need to understand

301
00:07:48,750 --> 00:07:50,208
why it evolved the

302
00:07:50,208 --> 00:07:51,208
way that it evolved.

303
00:07:51,208 --> 00:07:52,208
It's really important.

304
00:07:52,625 --> 00:07:53,916
So, I mean, if we

305
00:07:53,916 --> 00:07:55,166
go back really far.

306
00:07:55,958 --> 00:07:56,833
Humans basically

307
00:07:56,833 --> 00:07:58,000
started off bartering.

308
00:07:58,291 --> 00:07:59,708
We used to trade, uh, you

309
00:07:59,708 --> 00:08:00,916
know, I don't know, chickens

310
00:08:00,916 --> 00:08:03,291
for apples or, uh, bananas

311
00:08:03,291 --> 00:08:04,666
for bread or, or whatever.

312
00:08:05,083 --> 00:08:06,291
Um, but bartering is really

313
00:08:06,291 --> 00:08:07,708
inefficient because of the

314
00:08:07,750 --> 00:08:09,125
double coincidence of ones.

315
00:08:09,125 --> 00:08:10,250
Basically you can, that trade

316
00:08:10,250 --> 00:08:12,125
only works if the person

317
00:08:12,125 --> 00:08:13,375
that you want something from,

318
00:08:13,750 --> 00:08:14,791
uh, also wants something

319
00:08:14,791 --> 00:08:15,833
that you can offer them.

320
00:08:16,666 --> 00:08:18,125
So at exactly the same time

321
00:08:18,416 --> 00:08:20,041
at, at exactly the same time.

322
00:08:20,041 --> 00:08:20,500
Exactly.

323
00:08:20,708 --> 00:08:21,875
And then if it's goods that

324
00:08:21,875 --> 00:08:23,166
can perish, you know, then

325
00:08:23,166 --> 00:08:24,375
it's really hard because

326
00:08:24,791 --> 00:08:25,958
if you have bread now, but

327
00:08:25,958 --> 00:08:27,541
somebody only wants bread in

328
00:08:27,541 --> 00:08:28,958
a week, then maybe your bread

329
00:08:28,958 --> 00:08:30,000
is moldy by the time that

330
00:08:30,000 --> 00:08:31,000
you can buy the apples from

331
00:08:31,000 --> 00:08:32,416
them with, with your bread.

332
00:08:32,708 --> 00:08:33,583
So that's why, why it's

333
00:08:33,583 --> 00:08:34,416
really inefficient.

334
00:08:34,541 --> 00:08:37,125
Um, and then what humans

335
00:08:37,125 --> 00:08:38,500
did over time is they always

336
00:08:38,500 --> 00:08:40,208
converged on something that

337
00:08:40,208 --> 00:08:42,041
was the most tradable good

338
00:08:42,125 --> 00:08:43,958
within their small society.

339
00:08:44,166 --> 00:08:44,875
Something that

340
00:08:45,166 --> 00:08:46,250
everybody wanted.

341
00:08:46,250 --> 00:08:47,625
And that wa was in the

342
00:08:47,625 --> 00:08:48,958
highest demand from everybody

343
00:08:48,958 --> 00:08:50,333
that was easily tradable.

344
00:08:50,916 --> 00:08:52,250
And the interesting thing

345
00:08:52,250 --> 00:08:53,500
here as well is that.

346
00:08:54,416 --> 00:08:55,791
This money that evolved that

347
00:08:55,791 --> 00:08:57,750
we're talking about now was

348
00:08:57,750 --> 00:09:00,000
never centrally controlled

349
00:09:00,000 --> 00:09:01,625
or issued by any government.

350
00:09:01,625 --> 00:09:03,500
It was always, it always

351
00:09:03,500 --> 00:09:05,041
came to be because people

352
00:09:05,041 --> 00:09:06,333
naturally chose it through

353
00:09:06,333 --> 00:09:07,583
free market competition

354
00:09:07,583 --> 00:09:09,666
and by playing basically

355
00:09:09,666 --> 00:09:11,000
game theory in the head.

356
00:09:11,041 --> 00:09:12,083
Like trying to figure out

357
00:09:12,416 --> 00:09:13,375
what's something that I could

358
00:09:13,375 --> 00:09:15,208
trade my goods for that a

359
00:09:15,208 --> 00:09:16,166
lot of other people will

360
00:09:16,166 --> 00:09:17,541
want in the future as well.

361
00:09:18,208 --> 00:09:19,833
And then through this game,

362
00:09:19,833 --> 00:09:21,958
theoretical, um, thinking

363
00:09:21,958 --> 00:09:22,916
converged on the most

364
00:09:22,916 --> 00:09:24,125
tradable good, but nobody

365
00:09:24,125 --> 00:09:25,125
centrally controlled that.

366
00:09:25,125 --> 00:09:26,375
That's the amazing

367
00:09:26,375 --> 00:09:27,000
thing about money.

368
00:09:27,000 --> 00:09:28,250
Money itself doesn't have to

369
00:09:28,250 --> 00:09:29,333
be issued by the government.

370
00:09:29,333 --> 00:09:30,541
This is only something

371
00:09:30,541 --> 00:09:31,500
that's been happening in the

372
00:09:31,500 --> 00:09:33,208
last, let's say 100 years,

373
00:09:33,208 --> 00:09:34,583
where governments basically

374
00:09:34,583 --> 00:09:36,375
force us to use whatever

375
00:09:36,375 --> 00:09:37,791
they issue because we have

376
00:09:37,791 --> 00:09:39,166
to pay taxes in that money.

377
00:09:39,833 --> 00:09:40,458
And because they've

378
00:09:40,458 --> 00:09:41,250
built a whole system

379
00:09:41,250 --> 00:09:41,875
around that money.

380
00:09:42,208 --> 00:09:43,666
But money in and of itself

381
00:09:43,791 --> 00:09:45,291
is not equal to currency.

382
00:09:45,291 --> 00:09:46,708
Money is way broader

383
00:09:46,708 --> 00:09:47,916
than just currency alone.

384
00:09:48,208 --> 00:09:49,000
That's really important

385
00:09:49,000 --> 00:09:49,916
to understand as well.

386
00:09:50,708 --> 00:09:51,750
Um, but to go back

387
00:09:51,750 --> 00:09:52,708
to the history.

388
00:09:53,416 --> 00:09:55,125
We then were using things

389
00:09:55,125 --> 00:09:58,166
like sea shells, glass beads.

390
00:09:58,458 --> 00:09:59,333
Some societies were

391
00:09:59,333 --> 00:10:01,333
using cattle or salt.

392
00:10:01,375 --> 00:10:01,875
They were using

393
00:10:01,875 --> 00:10:03,208
salt blocks as well.

394
00:10:03,541 --> 00:10:05,125
Um, and then what happened

395
00:10:05,125 --> 00:10:07,875
is, as humans spread out over

396
00:10:07,875 --> 00:10:09,958
the world, and as we became

397
00:10:09,958 --> 00:10:11,416
more technologically advanced

398
00:10:11,416 --> 00:10:12,875
and you know, had ships

399
00:10:13,166 --> 00:10:14,375
could sail over the world,

400
00:10:14,625 --> 00:10:15,916
all of a sudden societies

401
00:10:15,916 --> 00:10:16,791
that were using different

402
00:10:16,791 --> 00:10:19,000
forms of money had to compete

403
00:10:19,000 --> 00:10:20,166
with, you know, their form

404
00:10:20,166 --> 00:10:21,750
of money with each other.

405
00:10:22,416 --> 00:10:23,375
And what often happened

406
00:10:23,375 --> 00:10:24,500
is that, especially when

407
00:10:24,500 --> 00:10:27,166
Europeans arrived in, let's

408
00:10:27,166 --> 00:10:29,458
say, uh, Northern Africa, or,

409
00:10:29,791 --> 00:10:31,083
um, it probably happened in

410
00:10:31,083 --> 00:10:32,458
other places, well, where,

411
00:10:32,916 --> 00:10:34,250
um, the societies that

412
00:10:34,250 --> 00:10:35,750
they encountered were less

413
00:10:35,750 --> 00:10:36,875
technologically advanced

414
00:10:36,875 --> 00:10:38,375
than they were, and they were

415
00:10:38,375 --> 00:10:39,708
using, let's say seashells

416
00:10:39,708 --> 00:10:40,750
or glass beets as money.

417
00:10:41,666 --> 00:10:42,916
The Europeans then saw that

418
00:10:42,916 --> 00:10:43,875
they were using this form of

419
00:10:43,875 --> 00:10:45,708
money, which they could either

420
00:10:45,750 --> 00:10:47,458
easily collect in the, uh, in

421
00:10:47,458 --> 00:10:48,916
the case of seashells, they

422
00:10:48,916 --> 00:10:49,916
just had to take their ships

423
00:10:49,916 --> 00:10:51,500
to the beach, collect heaps

424
00:10:51,500 --> 00:10:53,333
of seashells, then go down the

425
00:10:53,333 --> 00:10:54,708
river inland again, and they

426
00:10:54,708 --> 00:10:56,750
could basically appropriate

427
00:10:56,750 --> 00:10:57,958
everything from the societies

428
00:10:57,958 --> 00:10:59,666
to them because they had a

429
00:10:59,666 --> 00:11:01,166
near infinite amount of money.

430
00:11:01,375 --> 00:11:02,666
Same thing with glass beads.

431
00:11:02,666 --> 00:11:03,625
There were North African

432
00:11:03,625 --> 00:11:04,500
tribes that were using

433
00:11:04,500 --> 00:11:05,541
glass beets as money.

434
00:11:05,541 --> 00:11:07,333
And then Europeans discovered

435
00:11:07,333 --> 00:11:09,291
that and went back to Venice

436
00:11:09,291 --> 00:11:11,458
where they had perfected

437
00:11:11,458 --> 00:11:12,833
like glass manufacturing

438
00:11:12,833 --> 00:11:14,000
and creating glass beets

439
00:11:14,000 --> 00:11:15,708
already just created millions

440
00:11:15,708 --> 00:11:16,833
of them, then took their

441
00:11:16,833 --> 00:11:17,916
ships back to Africa and

442
00:11:17,916 --> 00:11:19,250
just bought everything of

443
00:11:19,250 --> 00:11:20,833
them, leaving them with

444
00:11:20,833 --> 00:11:22,625
worth worthless glass beads.

445
00:11:22,916 --> 00:11:24,791
So, and as you can see,

446
00:11:24,791 --> 00:11:26,333
then what always happens is

447
00:11:26,333 --> 00:11:27,500
that if one form of money

448
00:11:27,500 --> 00:11:28,916
is inferior to another form

449
00:11:28,916 --> 00:11:29,750
of money, because it can

450
00:11:29,750 --> 00:11:31,166
be more easily inflated

451
00:11:31,500 --> 00:11:32,750
by a more technologically

452
00:11:32,750 --> 00:11:34,416
advanced society, then

453
00:11:34,416 --> 00:11:35,750
that form of money will go

454
00:11:35,791 --> 00:11:36,916
away because it will become

455
00:11:36,916 --> 00:11:38,583
hyperinflated and worthless.

456
00:11:39,166 --> 00:11:40,083
We see the same thing

457
00:11:40,083 --> 00:11:41,333
nowadays with high inflating

458
00:11:41,333 --> 00:11:43,541
currencies in especially

459
00:11:43,541 --> 00:11:44,666
developing countries.

460
00:11:45,041 --> 00:11:46,166
Um, and then what happens

461
00:11:46,166 --> 00:11:48,041
over time is the whole world

462
00:11:48,041 --> 00:11:50,458
converges on the one good.

463
00:11:50,500 --> 00:11:53,000
That is the hardest, basically

464
00:11:53,000 --> 00:11:54,125
the hardest form of money

465
00:11:54,125 --> 00:11:55,166
because that's a really

466
00:11:55,375 --> 00:11:56,625
important property of money,

467
00:11:56,625 --> 00:11:58,333
is that it is hard to inflate.

468
00:11:58,333 --> 00:11:59,000
That's what we call

469
00:11:59,000 --> 00:12:00,208
hard money, that it's

470
00:12:00,208 --> 00:12:01,541
resistant to inflation.

471
00:12:02,333 --> 00:12:03,375
And gold was just the

472
00:12:03,375 --> 00:12:05,291
thing that, um, fulfilled

473
00:12:05,291 --> 00:12:06,250
that property the best.

474
00:12:06,250 --> 00:12:07,375
It also fulfilled a few other

475
00:12:07,375 --> 00:12:08,666
properties the best, like

476
00:12:08,666 --> 00:12:10,833
it was fairly divisible.

477
00:12:10,958 --> 00:12:12,666
Um, it was super durable

478
00:12:12,666 --> 00:12:13,708
because gold doesn't

479
00:12:13,708 --> 00:12:15,833
rust or perish at all.

480
00:12:16,250 --> 00:12:17,375
Um, and it was widely

481
00:12:17,416 --> 00:12:18,375
recognized and had

482
00:12:18,375 --> 00:12:19,291
network effects because

483
00:12:19,291 --> 00:12:20,458
Europeans were using it.

484
00:12:20,833 --> 00:12:21,625
So at some point we

485
00:12:21,625 --> 00:12:22,500
converged on gold.

486
00:12:24,000 --> 00:12:25,208
But mainly because it

487
00:12:25,208 --> 00:12:27,083
was the, the hardest to

488
00:12:27,083 --> 00:12:28,208
inflate because it's really

489
00:12:28,208 --> 00:12:29,333
hard to find more gold.

490
00:12:29,333 --> 00:12:30,625
It's hard to dig it

491
00:12:30,625 --> 00:12:31,541
out of the ground.

492
00:12:31,583 --> 00:12:32,333
You, you know, you have to

493
00:12:32,333 --> 00:12:33,750
find it, dig it out of the

494
00:12:33,750 --> 00:12:35,041
ground, and actually convert

495
00:12:35,041 --> 00:12:37,791
it into pure real gold, um,

496
00:12:37,791 --> 00:12:38,875
which no one can easily do.

497
00:12:38,916 --> 00:12:40,375
No, we still to this day,

498
00:12:40,375 --> 00:12:41,541
haven't figured out alchemy.

499
00:12:41,541 --> 00:12:42,625
I know that there technically

500
00:12:42,625 --> 00:12:44,750
is a way to make gold as a

501
00:12:44,750 --> 00:12:47,416
byproduct of mercury, but that

502
00:12:47,416 --> 00:12:49,000
gold is highly radioactive.

503
00:12:49,000 --> 00:12:51,291
So to this day, we, we still

504
00:12:51,291 --> 00:12:52,708
can't make gold in a lab.

505
00:12:52,708 --> 00:12:53,916
Maybe that will change one day

506
00:12:53,916 --> 00:12:55,041
and that will then be an even

507
00:12:55,041 --> 00:12:56,250
stronger case for Bitcoin,

508
00:12:56,250 --> 00:12:58,125
but at the moment we can't.

509
00:12:58,250 --> 00:12:59,708
Um, so that's, that's

510
00:12:59,708 --> 00:13:00,833
why we ended up with gold

511
00:13:00,833 --> 00:13:01,708
at some point because

512
00:13:01,708 --> 00:13:03,666
it best fulfilled the

513
00:13:03,666 --> 00:13:05,250
key properties of money.

514
00:13:05,958 --> 00:13:07,916
It was di visible portable

515
00:13:08,250 --> 00:13:11,125
scars, um, fungible.

516
00:13:11,166 --> 00:13:12,458
So one, you know, durable

517
00:13:12,458 --> 00:13:13,791
unit of gold is equal

518
00:13:13,791 --> 00:13:15,375
to another, um, uh, unit

519
00:13:15,375 --> 00:13:16,500
of gold and durable.

520
00:13:16,500 --> 00:13:17,125
So those are like the

521
00:13:17,125 --> 00:13:18,083
five key properties.

522
00:13:18,083 --> 00:13:18,791
There's probably a few

523
00:13:18,791 --> 00:13:19,333
more, but those are

524
00:13:19,333 --> 00:13:20,916
really the five key one.

525
00:13:21,958 --> 00:13:23,125
But then the problem with

526
00:13:23,125 --> 00:13:25,583
gold was that when we get

527
00:13:25,583 --> 00:13:26,666
it, when we started getting

528
00:13:26,666 --> 00:13:27,916
even more technologically

529
00:13:27,916 --> 00:13:29,875
advanced and trade was

530
00:13:29,875 --> 00:13:31,250
starting to happen globally,

531
00:13:31,250 --> 00:13:32,125
and we started getting

532
00:13:32,125 --> 00:13:33,458
communications networks where

533
00:13:33,458 --> 00:13:34,916
we could send information

534
00:13:35,250 --> 00:13:36,375
at the speed of light.

535
00:13:36,833 --> 00:13:37,875
There was a disconnect between

536
00:13:37,875 --> 00:13:39,416
how fast trade could happen

537
00:13:39,458 --> 00:13:41,291
and how fast the monetary

538
00:13:41,291 --> 00:13:42,750
good that was facilitating

539
00:13:42,750 --> 00:13:43,750
that trade could happen.

540
00:13:43,750 --> 00:13:45,791
So gold could only travel

541
00:13:45,791 --> 00:13:46,833
as fast as humans could

542
00:13:46,833 --> 00:13:47,916
travel, but information

543
00:13:47,916 --> 00:13:48,958
could travel faster.

544
00:13:49,541 --> 00:13:50,375
So all of a sudden there was

545
00:13:50,375 --> 00:13:51,750
a big disconnect between,

546
00:13:52,250 --> 00:13:53,458
um, the, the money that we

547
00:13:53,458 --> 00:13:55,125
were using and its speed.

548
00:13:55,250 --> 00:13:57,000
Its, um, saleability

549
00:13:57,000 --> 00:13:58,250
across space.

550
00:13:58,500 --> 00:14:00,083
So the saleability across time

551
00:14:00,083 --> 00:14:01,583
and saleability across space.

552
00:14:01,583 --> 00:14:02,333
Two really important

553
00:14:02,333 --> 00:14:02,750
things as well.

554
00:14:02,750 --> 00:14:03,833
The saleability across

555
00:14:03,833 --> 00:14:06,375
time is really about how

556
00:14:06,375 --> 00:14:07,750
well your money keeps

557
00:14:07,750 --> 00:14:08,666
its value over time.

558
00:14:08,666 --> 00:14:09,666
So you can basically

559
00:14:10,458 --> 00:14:11,958
convert your time and energy

560
00:14:11,958 --> 00:14:13,875
now into money and then.

561
00:14:14,750 --> 00:14:16,125
Carry that value into

562
00:14:16,125 --> 00:14:16,916
the future without

563
00:14:16,916 --> 00:14:18,000
it losing any value.

564
00:14:18,000 --> 00:14:19,000
That's the saleability

565
00:14:19,000 --> 00:14:19,916
across time.

566
00:14:20,250 --> 00:14:21,291
But the saleability across

567
00:14:21,291 --> 00:14:23,125
space is how, how easy it is

568
00:14:23,125 --> 00:14:24,625
to send that value over the

569
00:14:24,625 --> 00:14:26,166
entire world, you know, in,

570
00:14:26,166 --> 00:14:27,500
in a couple seconds to, to

571
00:14:27,500 --> 00:14:29,250
match the, the speed of trade.

572
00:14:30,208 --> 00:14:31,833
And gold wasn't fit for that.

573
00:14:32,291 --> 00:14:33,750
Um, and the other problem

574
00:14:33,750 --> 00:14:35,041
with gold is that it

575
00:14:35,041 --> 00:14:36,708
carried a lot of value in

576
00:14:36,708 --> 00:14:37,875
relatively small units.

577
00:14:37,875 --> 00:14:39,083
So it was actually pretty

578
00:14:39,083 --> 00:14:40,916
dangerous to try to transport

579
00:14:41,458 --> 00:14:43,166
larger amounts of gold over

580
00:14:43,166 --> 00:14:44,291
the country to, you know,

581
00:14:44,291 --> 00:14:46,208
make big purchases or, uh, do

582
00:14:46,208 --> 00:14:47,166
big trade because you could

583
00:14:47,166 --> 00:14:49,041
get attacked by a group of

584
00:14:49,041 --> 00:14:50,666
robbers, like armed robbers.

585
00:14:50,666 --> 00:14:51,458
And if they stole your

586
00:14:51,458 --> 00:14:53,000
gold because it's a

587
00:14:53,000 --> 00:14:54,125
bearer instrument, they

588
00:14:54,125 --> 00:14:55,333
would confiscate all of

589
00:14:55,333 --> 00:14:55,791
your wealth from you.

590
00:14:56,833 --> 00:14:57,916
So there were a few reasons

591
00:14:57,916 --> 00:15:00,458
why we then decided to go off

592
00:15:00,625 --> 00:15:02,708
using just pure gold as money.

593
00:15:03,125 --> 00:15:04,541
And initially we had a

594
00:15:04,541 --> 00:15:05,375
pretty good solution to

595
00:15:05,375 --> 00:15:06,958
that, which was that banks

596
00:15:06,958 --> 00:15:08,125
and eventually central banks

597
00:15:08,125 --> 00:15:10,458
said, let's like everybody

598
00:15:10,458 --> 00:15:11,583
just give us the gold.

599
00:15:11,583 --> 00:15:12,791
We will hold it for you in

600
00:15:12,791 --> 00:15:14,666
a really secure vault and

601
00:15:14,708 --> 00:15:16,166
we will issue issue paper

602
00:15:16,166 --> 00:15:17,500
certificates against that

603
00:15:17,500 --> 00:15:19,125
gold, which you can use

604
00:15:19,125 --> 00:15:20,291
as money, but you can also

605
00:15:20,291 --> 00:15:21,875
always redeem it for your gold

606
00:15:21,875 --> 00:15:23,583
that's sitting in our vault.

607
00:15:24,041 --> 00:15:25,000
And that was a really good

608
00:15:25,000 --> 00:15:26,500
solution because it overcame

609
00:15:26,500 --> 00:15:28,416
the the visibility issue

610
00:15:28,458 --> 00:15:30,375
of gold and the usability

611
00:15:30,375 --> 00:15:31,291
issue of gold because

612
00:15:31,291 --> 00:15:32,708
paper certificates were

613
00:15:32,708 --> 00:15:33,875
a lot easier to trade.

614
00:15:34,625 --> 00:15:35,166
And you never had

615
00:15:35,166 --> 00:15:35,916
to walk around with,

616
00:15:36,041 --> 00:15:36,958
with all of your gold.

617
00:15:37,416 --> 00:15:39,125
Um, and then the problem

618
00:15:39,125 --> 00:15:41,125
was that once you centralize

619
00:15:41,125 --> 00:15:43,083
something and have somebody

620
00:15:43,333 --> 00:15:44,666
hold that and custody it

621
00:15:44,666 --> 00:15:46,541
for you and issue paper

622
00:15:46,541 --> 00:15:48,125
certificates against that

623
00:15:48,125 --> 00:15:50,083
for you, you run into

624
00:15:50,083 --> 00:15:51,208
a trust issue where you

625
00:15:51,208 --> 00:15:52,125
have to trust that the,

626
00:15:52,333 --> 00:15:53,875
the issue actually honor

627
00:15:53,875 --> 00:15:55,291
redemptions when everybody

628
00:15:55,291 --> 00:15:56,375
wants to redeem their paper

629
00:15:56,375 --> 00:15:57,541
certificates for gold, that

630
00:15:57,541 --> 00:15:59,166
they actually have the gold

631
00:15:59,166 --> 00:16:00,125
and give it back to you.

632
00:16:00,375 --> 00:16:01,958
But also that they don't just

633
00:16:01,958 --> 00:16:03,750
print more paper certificates

634
00:16:03,750 --> 00:16:04,791
than they actually have gold.

635
00:16:05,583 --> 00:16:06,500
And that was the first problem

636
00:16:06,500 --> 00:16:07,416
because they started doing

637
00:16:07,416 --> 00:16:08,916
that because banks realized

638
00:16:08,916 --> 00:16:10,875
that not everybody was coming

639
00:16:10,875 --> 00:16:12,791
to convert their paper money

640
00:16:12,791 --> 00:16:14,125
back into gold all the time.

641
00:16:14,541 --> 00:16:16,083
So they were like, oh, what

642
00:16:16,083 --> 00:16:17,000
if we just create a little

643
00:16:17,000 --> 00:16:18,125
bit more paper money than

644
00:16:18,125 --> 00:16:19,125
we actually have gold?

645
00:16:19,541 --> 00:16:20,666
Nobody's gonna notice,

646
00:16:20,666 --> 00:16:21,583
nobody's gonna, you know,

647
00:16:21,583 --> 00:16:23,208
do a bank run on us.

648
00:16:23,375 --> 00:16:24,583
Um, and then at some point,

649
00:16:24,583 --> 00:16:25,500
you know, that started getting

650
00:16:25,500 --> 00:16:27,208
really blown up where all

651
00:16:27,208 --> 00:16:28,041
of a sudden there was so

652
00:16:28,041 --> 00:16:29,291
much paper certificates.

653
00:16:30,000 --> 00:16:31,750
Trading relative to, to gold.

654
00:16:32,125 --> 00:16:33,333
Um, and especially the US

655
00:16:33,333 --> 00:16:34,541
was doing that during the

656
00:16:34,541 --> 00:16:37,625
Vietnam War where, oh, okay.

657
00:16:37,625 --> 00:16:38,791
Actually I have to circle back

658
00:16:38,791 --> 00:16:39,875
a little bit to explain what,

659
00:16:39,875 --> 00:16:41,125
what happened there, which is

660
00:16:41,125 --> 00:16:42,125
the Bretton Woods agreement.

661
00:16:42,125 --> 00:16:43,541
So, so we had all of that

662
00:16:43,541 --> 00:16:44,916
where paper certificates

663
00:16:44,916 --> 00:16:45,958
were backed by gold.

664
00:16:46,291 --> 00:16:47,750
Um, then second World War

665
00:16:47,750 --> 00:16:48,958
happens, and at the end of

666
00:16:48,958 --> 00:16:50,833
the Second World War, um,

667
00:16:50,958 --> 00:16:52,000
the leaders of, I think

668
00:16:52,000 --> 00:16:53,500
it was like 150 countries

669
00:16:53,500 --> 00:16:55,041
met in this town in the US

670
00:16:55,041 --> 00:16:56,958
called Brett Woods, where

671
00:16:56,958 --> 00:16:59,250
they decided that the new

672
00:16:59,416 --> 00:17:00,958
host, world War II monetary

673
00:17:00,958 --> 00:17:02,166
order would be the following.

674
00:17:02,500 --> 00:17:04,250
The US would back their US

675
00:17:04,250 --> 00:17:06,916
dollar with gold and every

676
00:17:06,916 --> 00:17:09,000
other major currency would

677
00:17:09,000 --> 00:17:10,250
back their currency with

678
00:17:10,250 --> 00:17:12,041
the US dollar, knowing that

679
00:17:12,041 --> 00:17:13,041
they could always redeem

680
00:17:13,041 --> 00:17:14,791
those US dollars for gold.

681
00:17:15,083 --> 00:17:16,875
So basically we, we had this

682
00:17:17,333 --> 00:17:19,041
paper certificates, uh, backed

683
00:17:19,041 --> 00:17:20,416
by gold with the US dollar,

684
00:17:20,708 --> 00:17:21,958
and then every other currency

685
00:17:21,958 --> 00:17:24,000
was backed by the US dollar,

686
00:17:24,000 --> 00:17:25,083
which was backed by gold.

687
00:17:25,083 --> 00:17:26,583
So it was like backed by gold

688
00:17:26,666 --> 00:17:28,041
with an intermediate step

689
00:17:28,041 --> 00:17:29,250
of the US dollar in a way.

690
00:17:30,125 --> 00:17:31,750
Um, and then what happened

691
00:17:31,750 --> 00:17:32,833
during the Vietnam War in

692
00:17:32,833 --> 00:17:35,250
the sixties was that the US

693
00:17:35,250 --> 00:17:36,500
was spending way more money

694
00:17:36,500 --> 00:17:37,583
than they actually had gold.

695
00:17:37,583 --> 00:17:38,750
And in order to keep the war

696
00:17:38,750 --> 00:17:40,041
going and to keep financing

697
00:17:40,041 --> 00:17:41,458
it, they were just printing

698
00:17:41,458 --> 00:17:42,625
more and more dollars without

699
00:17:42,625 --> 00:17:43,875
actually having more gold.

700
00:17:44,333 --> 00:17:45,333
And a lot of European

701
00:17:45,333 --> 00:17:45,791
countries were

702
00:17:45,791 --> 00:17:46,500
catching up to that.

703
00:17:46,500 --> 00:17:47,625
And I think the, the French

704
00:17:47,666 --> 00:17:48,583
government was the first

705
00:17:48,583 --> 00:17:49,958
one to try to call them

706
00:17:49,958 --> 00:17:51,250
out on what was going on.

707
00:17:51,916 --> 00:17:52,791
And they actually took a

708
00:17:52,791 --> 00:17:54,333
warship and send it over

709
00:17:54,333 --> 00:17:56,000
to the US like full of

710
00:17:56,000 --> 00:17:57,958
US dollars and demanded

711
00:17:57,958 --> 00:17:59,166
to get their gold back.

712
00:17:59,541 --> 00:18:00,625
And, uh, president

713
00:18:00,625 --> 00:18:01,916
Nixon realized that a

714
00:18:01,916 --> 00:18:02,708
lot of countries had

715
00:18:02,708 --> 00:18:03,666
already been doing that.

716
00:18:03,666 --> 00:18:04,875
And the US I think went

717
00:18:04,875 --> 00:18:07,000
from 20,000 tons of gold

718
00:18:07,000 --> 00:18:07,750
that they were holding

719
00:18:07,750 --> 00:18:09,833
down to like 8,000 tons

720
00:18:09,833 --> 00:18:10,666
or something like that.

721
00:18:11,541 --> 00:18:13,000
And he realized that if

722
00:18:13,000 --> 00:18:14,541
they would keep redeeming

723
00:18:14,875 --> 00:18:16,250
the US dollars, that f that

724
00:18:16,250 --> 00:18:18,000
foreign nations held against

725
00:18:18,000 --> 00:18:20,000
gold, the US would soon be

726
00:18:20,000 --> 00:18:21,666
out of gold, and therefore

727
00:18:21,666 --> 00:18:22,666
the trust in the US dollar

728
00:18:22,666 --> 00:18:23,583
would probably be lost.

729
00:18:23,875 --> 00:18:24,750
So he told the

730
00:18:24,750 --> 00:18:26,000
French government to.

731
00:18:26,750 --> 00:18:28,250
Go back to France, um, because

732
00:18:28,250 --> 00:18:28,875
they're not gonna get the

733
00:18:28,875 --> 00:18:30,500
gold and that he's ending

734
00:18:30,875 --> 00:18:32,291
the convertibility of US

735
00:18:32,291 --> 00:18:33,958
souls to gold temporarily.

736
00:18:33,958 --> 00:18:36,250
But that temporary, um, pause

737
00:18:36,250 --> 00:18:37,708
has lasted until today and

738
00:18:37,708 --> 00:18:40,666
since that day, um, money has

739
00:18:40,666 --> 00:18:42,333
been backed by any commodity,

740
00:18:42,333 --> 00:18:43,541
it's been backed by trust

741
00:18:43,541 --> 00:18:44,708
in the issue of that money.

742
00:18:45,125 --> 00:18:46,208
And we now have what's

743
00:18:46,208 --> 00:18:47,583
called fiat money.

744
00:18:48,500 --> 00:18:49,875
Um, so that's how

745
00:18:49,875 --> 00:18:50,791
we got to today.

746
00:18:50,791 --> 00:18:52,000
I know that, that there was

747
00:18:52,000 --> 00:18:53,916
a long history lesson there.

748
00:18:54,333 --> 00:18:55,625
Um, but the important thing

749
00:18:55,625 --> 00:18:57,250
to understand there is I think

750
00:18:57,250 --> 00:18:58,958
that money doesn't have to

751
00:18:58,958 --> 00:18:59,708
be something that's issued

752
00:18:59,708 --> 00:19:01,333
by the government is usually

753
00:19:01,333 --> 00:19:02,375
something that's chosen by

754
00:19:02,375 --> 00:19:03,708
the people freely and it's

755
00:19:03,708 --> 00:19:04,791
chosen because it has the

756
00:19:04,875 --> 00:19:06,458
best monetary properties.

757
00:19:06,708 --> 00:19:08,250
And one of the key ones is

758
00:19:08,291 --> 00:19:09,875
how hard it is to inflate.

759
00:19:10,625 --> 00:19:11,625
And then the, the second

760
00:19:11,625 --> 00:19:12,666
thing to understand is

761
00:19:12,666 --> 00:19:14,291
that the money that we use

762
00:19:14,291 --> 00:19:15,583
nowadays, the government

763
00:19:15,583 --> 00:19:16,791
forces us to use and we're

764
00:19:16,791 --> 00:19:18,166
not choosing it freely.

765
00:19:18,916 --> 00:19:19,833
And this is where Bitcoin

766
00:19:19,833 --> 00:19:22,166
comes in because, um, Bitcoin

767
00:19:22,541 --> 00:19:24,000
is kind of like gold, but

768
00:19:24,000 --> 00:19:25,166
in the digital realm, it

769
00:19:25,166 --> 00:19:26,666
has all of the properties

770
00:19:26,666 --> 00:19:28,166
that gold has, but better.

771
00:19:28,625 --> 00:19:30,416
It's gold that you can send

772
00:19:30,416 --> 00:19:31,750
over the internet in a way

773
00:19:32,333 --> 00:19:34,166
that nobody controls, that

774
00:19:34,166 --> 00:19:35,541
nobody can inflate, that

775
00:19:35,541 --> 00:19:36,666
you can store your time and

776
00:19:36,708 --> 00:19:38,291
energy in without anybody

777
00:19:38,291 --> 00:19:39,625
arbitrarily de basing it.

778
00:19:40,125 --> 00:19:42,000
And in a way, it combines

779
00:19:42,000 --> 00:19:43,375
the best properties of gold

780
00:19:43,416 --> 00:19:44,875
with the best properties of

781
00:19:44,875 --> 00:19:47,166
fiat because just like fiat

782
00:19:47,166 --> 00:19:48,583
money, you can send it all

783
00:19:48,583 --> 00:19:49,833
over the world at seconds,

784
00:19:50,083 --> 00:19:50,833
but you don't have the

785
00:19:50,833 --> 00:19:52,166
problem that central banks

786
00:19:52,166 --> 00:19:53,375
can just print more money

787
00:19:53,375 --> 00:19:54,833
and inflate your currency

788
00:19:55,166 --> 00:19:56,375
or your holdings away.

789
00:19:56,750 --> 00:19:57,791
And you have the best

790
00:19:57,791 --> 00:19:59,833
properties of gold, especially

791
00:19:59,833 --> 00:20:00,833
the hardness of gold.

792
00:20:01,708 --> 00:20:02,916
But, um, you can send

793
00:20:02,916 --> 00:20:03,625
it over the internet.

794
00:20:03,750 --> 00:20:05,375
That's basically, um, why

795
00:20:06,250 --> 00:20:06,958
Bitcoin is such a brilliant

796
00:20:06,958 --> 00:20:08,250
solution, because Satoshi kind

797
00:20:08,250 --> 00:20:10,416
of realized that Fiat overcame

798
00:20:10,416 --> 00:20:11,625
a lot of the shortcomings of

799
00:20:11,625 --> 00:20:13,875
gold by being more fit for

800
00:20:13,875 --> 00:20:15,458
this global hyperconnected

801
00:20:15,541 --> 00:20:17,583
economy, but sacrificed

802
00:20:17,583 --> 00:20:18,666
the key properties of gold.

803
00:20:18,666 --> 00:20:19,750
And gold had a lot of key

804
00:20:19,750 --> 00:20:20,833
properties that fiat money

805
00:20:20,833 --> 00:20:22,208
didn't have, but wasn't

806
00:20:22,208 --> 00:20:23,250
fit for this new world.

807
00:20:23,250 --> 00:20:24,791
So he, he was like, let's

808
00:20:24,791 --> 00:20:25,750
just create something

809
00:20:26,041 --> 00:20:27,041
that fuses the best

810
00:20:27,041 --> 00:20:28,541
properties of both and

811
00:20:28,541 --> 00:20:29,916
isn't controlled by anybody.

812
00:20:30,125 --> 00:20:31,333
So nobody can ever

813
00:20:31,333 --> 00:20:32,791
mess with this money.

814
00:20:32,833 --> 00:20:33,708
Hence why It's,

815
00:20:33,791 --> 00:20:34,791
uh, honest money.

816
00:20:36,333 --> 00:20:37,708
I I love that you keep saying

817
00:20:37,708 --> 00:20:38,916
honest money throughout.

818
00:20:39,625 --> 00:20:39,875
Thank you.

819
00:20:40,625 --> 00:20:42,541
Um, but yeah, I remember

820
00:20:42,541 --> 00:20:44,500
reading, um, somewhere like

821
00:20:44,500 --> 00:20:46,041
the history of central banking

822
00:20:46,041 --> 00:20:48,041
as well, how even before the

823
00:20:48,041 --> 00:20:49,500
Fed was established and going

824
00:20:49,500 --> 00:20:50,833
back many, many centuries

825
00:20:50,833 --> 00:20:53,000
ago, it was essentially

826
00:20:53,458 --> 00:20:55,708
initially implemented to try

827
00:20:55,750 --> 00:20:57,833
and standardize the gold.

828
00:20:57,833 --> 00:21:00,041
So to ensure that the gold

829
00:21:00,041 --> 00:21:01,541
that was being traded between

830
00:21:01,541 --> 00:21:03,041
people was genuine gold.

831
00:21:03,041 --> 00:21:04,000
They didn't have some

832
00:21:04,000 --> 00:21:05,583
other metal in the middle,

833
00:21:05,583 --> 00:21:06,958
and it was gold coated.

834
00:21:07,375 --> 00:21:08,750
And so that sort of

835
00:21:08,750 --> 00:21:10,625
centralization happened over

836
00:21:10,625 --> 00:21:12,791
many, many, many years to

837
00:21:12,791 --> 00:21:14,250
get it to what it is today.

838
00:21:14,416 --> 00:21:15,791
And I think I also read, I

839
00:21:16,208 --> 00:21:17,708
wanna say Lynn Oden's book

840
00:21:17,708 --> 00:21:19,166
where she wrote that, um,

841
00:21:19,458 --> 00:21:20,583
the first time in human

842
00:21:20,583 --> 00:21:21,791
history where a softer

843
00:21:21,791 --> 00:21:23,500
money one was with fiat.

844
00:21:24,041 --> 00:21:24,458
And

845
00:21:26,708 --> 00:21:27,583
do you wanna explain

846
00:21:27,583 --> 00:21:28,541
fiat just in case?

847
00:21:28,541 --> 00:21:29,708
I don't think I have explained

848
00:21:29,708 --> 00:21:31,208
it in previous episodes,

849
00:21:31,208 --> 00:21:32,833
but I do mention it a lot.

850
00:21:34,000 --> 00:21:34,333
What is Fiat?

851
00:21:34,750 --> 00:21:35,041
Fiat.

852
00:21:35,916 --> 00:21:36,208
Fiat.

853
00:21:36,500 --> 00:21:37,833
I think the word itself

854
00:21:37,833 --> 00:21:39,875
just means by decree.

855
00:21:39,875 --> 00:21:39,916
Yeah.

856
00:21:40,291 --> 00:21:42,625
So basically it's,

857
00:21:42,875 --> 00:21:44,916
um, money because the

858
00:21:44,916 --> 00:21:45,958
government says so.

859
00:21:46,500 --> 00:21:48,791
Um, it's not money because

860
00:21:48,791 --> 00:21:50,208
people choose it to be money.

861
00:21:50,916 --> 00:21:51,750
That's what fiat money is.

862
00:21:51,750 --> 00:21:53,000
But fiat money is for

863
00:21:53,000 --> 00:21:54,125
everybody listening, who,

864
00:21:54,125 --> 00:21:54,958
who doesn't know This

865
00:21:54,958 --> 00:21:56,333
term is just the money

866
00:21:56,333 --> 00:21:57,375
that we use every day.

867
00:21:57,375 --> 00:21:58,833
So Australian dollars,

868
00:21:58,833 --> 00:21:59,541
that's fiat money.

869
00:21:59,541 --> 00:22:01,000
US dollars, that's fiat money.

870
00:22:01,000 --> 00:22:02,750
Euros, that's fiat money.

871
00:22:03,125 --> 00:22:04,208
The money of today

872
00:22:04,208 --> 00:22:05,500
is fiat money.

873
00:22:06,000 --> 00:22:08,083
Um, whereas money

874
00:22:08,375 --> 00:22:10,083
itself, the concept is

875
00:22:10,083 --> 00:22:11,125
much broader than that.

876
00:22:11,166 --> 00:22:13,541
And actually, I think making

877
00:22:13,541 --> 00:22:15,000
the distinction between

878
00:22:15,916 --> 00:22:17,125
maybe the, maybe the best

879
00:22:17,125 --> 00:22:18,583
distinction to make is between

880
00:22:18,583 --> 00:22:22,541
money and currency because we,

881
00:22:22,541 --> 00:22:24,500
we nowadays use currency and

882
00:22:24,500 --> 00:22:26,083
money interchangeably as if

883
00:22:26,083 --> 00:22:27,333
they're synonyms, which is why

884
00:22:27,333 --> 00:22:28,916
a lot of people think that.

885
00:22:30,291 --> 00:22:31,291
Currency that they use

886
00:22:31,291 --> 00:22:33,250
nowadays is also money.

887
00:22:33,791 --> 00:22:35,166
But when you think about

888
00:22:35,166 --> 00:22:36,041
the concept of money

889
00:22:36,041 --> 00:22:36,833
itself, and there's

890
00:22:36,833 --> 00:22:38,250
actually a really good book.

891
00:22:38,291 --> 00:22:40,291
I read it in German, I've

892
00:22:40,291 --> 00:22:41,375
read it three times now

893
00:22:41,416 --> 00:22:42,458
'cause it's that good.

894
00:22:42,500 --> 00:22:43,958
And do you know Gigi?

895
00:22:44,625 --> 00:22:45,333
Yes, by the way.

896
00:22:45,416 --> 00:22:45,750
Yeah.

897
00:22:45,750 --> 00:22:45,791
Yes.

898
00:22:46,125 --> 00:22:47,833
No, not personally, but often.

899
00:22:48,791 --> 00:22:49,333
No, yeah, no.

900
00:22:49,333 --> 00:22:49,500
Yeah.

901
00:22:49,750 --> 00:22:50,125
I don't know him

902
00:22:50,125 --> 00:22:51,125
personally, unfortunately.

903
00:22:51,125 --> 00:22:52,125
You know, he stays

904
00:22:52,125 --> 00:22:52,875
very anonymous.

905
00:22:52,875 --> 00:22:55,166
But, uh, to anybody who,

906
00:22:55,208 --> 00:22:56,666
who, who doesn't know this

907
00:22:56,666 --> 00:22:58,458
guy, he is an Austrian

908
00:22:59,041 --> 00:23:00,541
Bitcoin and he's done some

909
00:23:00,541 --> 00:23:01,708
of the most amazing writing

910
00:23:01,708 --> 00:23:02,541
in the Bitcoin space.

911
00:23:02,541 --> 00:23:03,833
He has a website called

912
00:23:03,833 --> 00:23:07,000
Dare gigi, like D-E-R-G-I-G

913
00:23:07,000 --> 00:23:08,541
i.com with some of the

914
00:23:08,541 --> 00:23:09,666
best articles on Bitcoin.

915
00:23:09,666 --> 00:23:11,000
Like reading those for

916
00:23:11,000 --> 00:23:12,833
me was mind blowing.

917
00:23:12,833 --> 00:23:13,416
Like there's one

918
00:23:13,416 --> 00:23:14,291
where he talks about.

919
00:23:15,333 --> 00:23:16,416
Proof of life, I think is

920
00:23:16,416 --> 00:23:17,250
what it's called, where he

921
00:23:17,250 --> 00:23:19,166
talks about Bitcoin, you

922
00:23:19,166 --> 00:23:20,125
know, potentially being

923
00:23:20,125 --> 00:23:21,333
like a living organism.

924
00:23:21,750 --> 00:23:23,333
Anyway, he, he recommended

925
00:23:23,333 --> 00:23:25,250
this book called, um, in

926
00:23:25,250 --> 00:23:27,625
German from gda, which in

927
00:23:27,625 --> 00:23:30,791
English translates to on money

928
00:23:30,791 --> 00:23:32,666
or the Essence of Money, I

929
00:23:32,666 --> 00:23:33,500
think is what it's called

930
00:23:33,666 --> 00:23:35,750
in, in English, um, by LIOs.

931
00:23:35,750 --> 00:23:38,083
And this was written in 1921,

932
00:23:38,541 --> 00:23:40,375
so like during the Weymar

933
00:23:40,541 --> 00:23:42,375
Republic time in Germany.

934
00:23:43,291 --> 00:23:44,916
And this book is by far

935
00:23:44,916 --> 00:23:46,208
the best explanation of

936
00:23:46,208 --> 00:23:47,833
money that I've ever read.

937
00:23:47,833 --> 00:23:48,708
And what the essence

938
00:23:48,708 --> 00:23:49,625
of money really is.

939
00:23:49,625 --> 00:23:51,500
And basically the distinction

940
00:23:51,500 --> 00:23:53,250
that he makes there is that

941
00:23:53,666 --> 00:23:55,833
money essentially is just a

942
00:23:55,833 --> 00:24:00,166
claim on value that you get.

943
00:24:00,375 --> 00:24:01,750
But if you have provided

944
00:24:01,750 --> 00:24:02,666
value, but you haven't

945
00:24:02,666 --> 00:24:03,750
received anything in

946
00:24:03,750 --> 00:24:06,416
return yet, another way

947
00:24:06,416 --> 00:24:08,708
to say it is that money,

948
00:24:08,708 --> 00:24:11,250
money, the money is just.

949
00:24:11,875 --> 00:24:14,250
Value, but currency is the

950
00:24:14,250 --> 00:24:15,750
representation of that value.

951
00:24:15,750 --> 00:24:17,083
It's, it's the units that

952
00:24:17,083 --> 00:24:19,500
that value is divided over.

953
00:24:19,875 --> 00:24:20,958
But when you think about the

954
00:24:20,958 --> 00:24:22,125
concept of money that way, you

955
00:24:22,125 --> 00:24:23,208
can probably also think about

956
00:24:23,208 --> 00:24:24,458
it as the aggregate purchasing

957
00:24:24,458 --> 00:24:25,541
power in an economy.

958
00:24:26,041 --> 00:24:27,958
That then means that if

959
00:24:27,958 --> 00:24:29,166
you think about money, just

960
00:24:29,166 --> 00:24:30,166
as the value that has been

961
00:24:30,166 --> 00:24:32,208
created and as currency,

962
00:24:32,208 --> 00:24:33,416
as the units over which

963
00:24:33,416 --> 00:24:34,625
that money is divided, then

964
00:24:35,333 --> 00:24:36,125
it's all of a sudden really

965
00:24:36,125 --> 00:24:37,666
easy to understand how the

966
00:24:37,666 --> 00:24:38,833
government can't actually

967
00:24:38,833 --> 00:24:40,208
create any more money.

968
00:24:40,833 --> 00:24:42,333
They can create more currency.

969
00:24:42,500 --> 00:24:43,958
But all that that does is

970
00:24:43,958 --> 00:24:45,041
it takes the money that

971
00:24:45,041 --> 00:24:46,583
already exists because they

972
00:24:46,583 --> 00:24:47,625
haven't provided any value.

973
00:24:47,625 --> 00:24:48,541
When they, when they print

974
00:24:48,541 --> 00:24:50,166
money, they just take the

975
00:24:50,166 --> 00:24:51,875
value that already exists and

976
00:24:51,875 --> 00:24:53,375
divide it over more units.

977
00:24:53,541 --> 00:24:56,333
So while they print more,

978
00:24:56,666 --> 00:24:58,208
you know, money units.

979
00:24:58,625 --> 00:24:59,791
They don't create more money.

980
00:24:59,791 --> 00:25:00,458
It's kind of like

981
00:25:00,458 --> 00:25:01,833
thinking about a clock.

982
00:25:01,875 --> 00:25:02,625
Like if you think about like

983
00:25:02,625 --> 00:25:04,250
an analog clock, I could

984
00:25:04,250 --> 00:25:05,916
add another line to that

985
00:25:05,916 --> 00:25:07,416
clock and say, okay, now

986
00:25:07,416 --> 00:25:09,208
my clock has 13 hours of,

987
00:25:09,583 --> 00:25:10,750
um, you know, going around.

988
00:25:10,750 --> 00:25:12,958
So 26 in the whole day, but

989
00:25:12,958 --> 00:25:14,166
I haven't created more time.

990
00:25:14,166 --> 00:25:14,791
I've just created

991
00:25:14,791 --> 00:25:16,291
more hours, which is

992
00:25:16,291 --> 00:25:17,333
a measurement of time.

993
00:25:17,625 --> 00:25:18,416
It's kind of the same

994
00:25:18,416 --> 00:25:19,875
thing for, for, for money.

995
00:25:20,500 --> 00:25:21,458
And once you start thinking

996
00:25:21,458 --> 00:25:22,750
about money in that way,

997
00:25:23,166 --> 00:25:24,458
it becomes really clear

998
00:25:24,541 --> 00:25:26,541
why, you know, fiat money

999
00:25:26,541 --> 00:25:28,000
is such a bad thing because

1000
00:25:28,541 --> 00:25:30,041
it's not directly linked

1001
00:25:30,041 --> 00:25:31,208
to value that we created.

1002
00:25:31,208 --> 00:25:32,250
It's like the, because

1003
00:25:32,625 --> 00:25:33,875
a good money should

1004
00:25:33,875 --> 00:25:35,291
only come into existence

1005
00:25:35,291 --> 00:25:36,166
through work as well.

1006
00:25:37,125 --> 00:25:37,791
You shouldn't just be

1007
00:25:37,791 --> 00:25:38,916
able to create money out

1008
00:25:38,916 --> 00:25:40,541
of nothing because we all

1009
00:25:40,541 --> 00:25:41,916
have to exchange our time

1010
00:25:41,916 --> 00:25:43,541
and energy for money.

1011
00:25:43,708 --> 00:25:44,333
That's the only way

1012
00:25:44,333 --> 00:25:45,583
that we can get money.

1013
00:25:45,833 --> 00:25:47,875
So wouldn't it be fair if

1014
00:25:47,875 --> 00:25:49,416
everybody could only get money

1015
00:25:49,416 --> 00:25:50,708
if they provide value as well?

1016
00:25:50,708 --> 00:25:51,583
And there's not one

1017
00:25:51,583 --> 00:25:53,166
central party that can

1018
00:25:53,166 --> 00:25:54,833
just print money out of

1019
00:25:54,833 --> 00:25:55,875
thin air for nothing.

1020
00:25:56,166 --> 00:25:57,250
And then again, I said

1021
00:25:57,250 --> 00:25:58,000
printing money, but

1022
00:25:58,000 --> 00:25:58,541
they're just printing

1023
00:25:58,541 --> 00:25:59,916
currency, not money.

1024
00:26:00,125 --> 00:26:00,916
And that's making that

1025
00:26:00,916 --> 00:26:02,041
distinction for me when that

1026
00:26:02,041 --> 00:26:03,875
clicked was was brilliant.

1027
00:26:24,208 --> 00:26:25,125
I really like the

1028
00:26:25,125 --> 00:26:26,250
clock analogy.

1029
00:26:26,291 --> 00:26:27,291
I'm gonna use that.

1030
00:26:28,083 --> 00:26:29,250
Yeah, yeah, yeah.

1031
00:26:29,458 --> 00:26:30,333
That just clicked,

1032
00:26:30,500 --> 00:26:31,500
clicked in for me.

1033
00:26:31,500 --> 00:26:34,041
Uh, um, yeah.

1034
00:26:34,375 --> 00:26:35,791
But I also wanted to ask

1035
00:26:35,791 --> 00:26:37,166
you, you mentioned gold is

1036
00:26:37,166 --> 00:26:39,500
a bear instrument and or a

1037
00:26:39,500 --> 00:26:42,750
bear asset, and I wanted to

1038
00:26:42,833 --> 00:26:44,250
obviously go, um, Bitcoin

1039
00:26:44,250 --> 00:26:45,666
is as well, but how would

1040
00:26:45,666 --> 00:26:47,458
you define Aberra asset

1041
00:26:47,541 --> 00:26:48,625
for those who heard that

1042
00:26:48,625 --> 00:26:49,708
word, but don't necessarily

1043
00:26:49,708 --> 00:26:50,708
know what it means?

1044
00:26:52,250 --> 00:26:53,458
Aberra asset is just

1045
00:26:53,458 --> 00:26:54,625
something that you can

1046
00:26:54,625 --> 00:26:57,166
truly own yourself.

1047
00:26:57,833 --> 00:26:58,541
And this again.

1048
00:26:59,250 --> 00:27:02,833
Is such a groundbreaking thing

1049
00:27:02,833 --> 00:27:04,458
to have in the digital space.

1050
00:27:04,583 --> 00:27:05,250
Um, even in the

1051
00:27:05,250 --> 00:27:05,875
physical space.

1052
00:27:05,875 --> 00:27:07,375
Like we don't actually

1053
00:27:07,375 --> 00:27:08,500
own a lot of things

1054
00:27:08,541 --> 00:27:09,750
that we think we own.

1055
00:27:10,041 --> 00:27:10,250
Hmm.

1056
00:27:10,333 --> 00:27:11,583
Like the money in your bank

1057
00:27:11,583 --> 00:27:12,875
account, I mean, there's that

1058
00:27:13,208 --> 00:27:14,500
thing in the Bitcoin space

1059
00:27:14,500 --> 00:27:15,958
that it's favorite not money.

1060
00:27:16,583 --> 00:27:18,208
It's not money, it's not news

1061
00:27:18,208 --> 00:27:19,166
and it's not in the bank.

1062
00:27:21,833 --> 00:27:23,125
Um, it's a bunch of IUs.

1063
00:27:24,083 --> 00:27:25,000
Yeah, exactly.

1064
00:27:25,041 --> 00:27:25,541
Exactly.

1065
00:27:25,625 --> 00:27:26,541
It's just, it's just

1066
00:27:26,541 --> 00:27:27,458
numbers on a screen.

1067
00:27:27,458 --> 00:27:29,125
But the money, unless you hold

1068
00:27:29,125 --> 00:27:30,750
money, cash you, it's not a

1069
00:27:30,750 --> 00:27:32,750
bearer instrument, um, either.

1070
00:27:33,208 --> 00:27:34,083
Um, but then when you think

1071
00:27:34,083 --> 00:27:35,875
about shares that you own, you

1072
00:27:35,875 --> 00:27:37,583
don't actually own the shares.

1073
00:27:37,583 --> 00:27:40,250
You, you know, you have access

1074
00:27:40,250 --> 00:27:42,875
to the, the price movement

1075
00:27:42,875 --> 00:27:44,000
or you get exposure to the

1076
00:27:44,000 --> 00:27:45,416
price movement of that through

1077
00:27:45,416 --> 00:27:46,791
a brokerage account that

1078
00:27:46,791 --> 00:27:48,083
you have, but it's not like

1079
00:27:48,083 --> 00:27:50,000
you actually have ownership

1080
00:27:50,000 --> 00:27:51,625
of those shares yourself

1081
00:27:51,625 --> 00:27:53,791
truly, even with a property.

1082
00:27:54,291 --> 00:27:55,791
What, even if you paid

1083
00:27:55,791 --> 00:27:56,916
off your house, you

1084
00:27:56,916 --> 00:27:57,708
know, you might have the

1085
00:27:57,708 --> 00:27:58,583
property and you might

1086
00:27:58,583 --> 00:27:59,541
be able to live in it.

1087
00:27:59,958 --> 00:28:01,375
Um, but if you don't

1088
00:28:01,375 --> 00:28:02,583
pay, I don't know, land

1089
00:28:02,583 --> 00:28:05,083
taxes or whatever, uh,

1090
00:28:05,166 --> 00:28:06,875
needs to be paid on, on

1091
00:28:06,875 --> 00:28:08,000
houses here in Australia,

1092
00:28:08,750 --> 00:28:09,708
um, the, the government

1093
00:28:09,708 --> 00:28:10,500
could seize your house.

1094
00:28:10,500 --> 00:28:11,333
So that's not true.

1095
00:28:11,333 --> 00:28:12,125
Ownership either.

1096
00:28:12,208 --> 00:28:13,750
True ownership and a true

1097
00:28:13,750 --> 00:28:14,791
bearer asset is something

1098
00:28:14,791 --> 00:28:17,291
that unconditionally you

1099
00:28:17,291 --> 00:28:19,208
can hold yourself and nobody

1100
00:28:19,208 --> 00:28:20,333
can take that away from you.

1101
00:28:20,375 --> 00:28:21,333
Not the government,

1102
00:28:21,666 --> 00:28:22,708
not anybody.

1103
00:28:22,958 --> 00:28:24,208
And with gold you can

1104
00:28:24,208 --> 00:28:25,166
do that because you can

1105
00:28:25,166 --> 00:28:25,916
just put gold in your

1106
00:28:25,916 --> 00:28:27,041
pocket and walk around.

1107
00:28:27,041 --> 00:28:27,833
Obviously that's the

1108
00:28:27,833 --> 00:28:28,958
risk of somebody trying

1109
00:28:28,958 --> 00:28:29,916
to rob you and then they

1110
00:28:29,916 --> 00:28:30,708
can take that from you.

1111
00:28:30,708 --> 00:28:32,041
But that's the risk with,

1112
00:28:32,041 --> 00:28:33,291
with any bearer assets

1113
00:28:33,375 --> 00:28:34,333
apart from Bitcoin if

1114
00:28:34,333 --> 00:28:35,708
you custody it properly.

1115
00:28:36,125 --> 00:28:38,208
Um, but that's why having

1116
00:28:38,208 --> 00:28:39,333
something that you can truly

1117
00:28:39,333 --> 00:28:42,416
own is so, is so amazing

1118
00:28:42,416 --> 00:28:43,875
because we, we don't have

1119
00:28:43,875 --> 00:28:45,083
that nowadays anymore.

1120
00:28:45,083 --> 00:28:46,125
All of the things that we

1121
00:28:46,125 --> 00:28:47,791
think we own, we're just

1122
00:28:48,250 --> 00:28:50,708
allowed to, I don't even know

1123
00:28:50,708 --> 00:28:51,958
if own is the right word.

1124
00:28:51,958 --> 00:28:52,791
It's probably.

1125
00:28:53,375 --> 00:28:55,041
Mm. What's a better

1126
00:28:55,041 --> 00:28:56,000
word for that?

1127
00:28:57,916 --> 00:29:00,250
Uh, it's like we're, we're

1128
00:29:00,250 --> 00:29:02,208
allowed access to it in a way.

1129
00:29:02,333 --> 00:29:04,166
Like, while, while we behave

1130
00:29:04,625 --> 00:29:06,791
the way that the government

1131
00:29:06,916 --> 00:29:08,500
wants us to, they allow us

1132
00:29:08,500 --> 00:29:09,500
to have access to it, which

1133
00:29:09,500 --> 00:29:10,916
feels like ownership, but

1134
00:29:10,916 --> 00:29:12,000
it's not true ownership.

1135
00:29:12,666 --> 00:29:14,041
And then in the digital space,

1136
00:29:14,541 --> 00:29:16,250
true ownership seems even more

1137
00:29:16,500 --> 00:29:18,833
foreign because how do you own

1138
00:29:18,833 --> 00:29:20,250
something that is dig digital?

1139
00:29:20,250 --> 00:29:21,208
How do you, how is

1140
00:29:21,208 --> 00:29:22,208
that a bearer asset?

1141
00:29:22,208 --> 00:29:23,708
If it's sitting in cyberspace?

1142
00:29:24,041 --> 00:29:25,250
How does that make any sense?

1143
00:29:25,250 --> 00:29:26,666
And Bitcoin solves that with

1144
00:29:26,916 --> 00:29:28,166
really clever cryptography

1145
00:29:28,166 --> 00:29:30,250
where a. You get your,

1146
00:29:30,250 --> 00:29:31,500
you know, your private key

1147
00:29:31,500 --> 00:29:32,375
and your public key, and

1148
00:29:32,375 --> 00:29:33,416
explaining that for, for

1149
00:29:33,416 --> 00:29:34,333
anybody who's listening,

1150
00:29:34,750 --> 00:29:35,833
who doesn't understand that,

1151
00:29:35,833 --> 00:29:38,333
uh, in, in simple terms, um,

1152
00:29:38,666 --> 00:29:40,750
basically in, in cryptography,

1153
00:29:40,875 --> 00:29:42,291
especially public, private

1154
00:29:42,291 --> 00:29:43,375
key cryptography, which is

1155
00:29:43,375 --> 00:29:45,083
what Bitcoin uses, how it

1156
00:29:45,083 --> 00:29:46,333
works is you can get a pair

1157
00:29:46,333 --> 00:29:47,500
of private keys, which is

1158
00:29:47,625 --> 00:29:49,000
kind of like a password, like

1159
00:29:49,000 --> 00:29:50,291
a really long, complicated

1160
00:29:50,291 --> 00:29:51,458
password that you have.

1161
00:29:51,875 --> 00:29:52,791
And that is then

1162
00:29:52,791 --> 00:29:54,000
mathematically linked to a

1163
00:29:54,000 --> 00:29:56,041
public key, which becomes

1164
00:29:56,041 --> 00:29:57,041
your Bitcoin address.

1165
00:29:57,291 --> 00:29:58,750
That's where you, where,

1166
00:29:58,750 --> 00:29:59,291
that's where your Bitcoin

1167
00:29:59,541 --> 00:30:00,875
is technically sitting.

1168
00:30:01,208 --> 00:30:02,166
Um, and the private

1169
00:30:02,166 --> 00:30:02,916
key is what gives you

1170
00:30:02,916 --> 00:30:04,083
access to that Bitcoin.

1171
00:30:04,375 --> 00:30:05,583
But they're mathematically

1172
00:30:05,583 --> 00:30:06,583
linked in a way where

1173
00:30:06,583 --> 00:30:07,541
if you know the public

1174
00:30:07,541 --> 00:30:09,125
key or the address of

1175
00:30:09,125 --> 00:30:10,416
somebody, you can't back

1176
00:30:10,416 --> 00:30:12,125
solve for the private key.

1177
00:30:12,541 --> 00:30:13,958
Um, and that way, as long as

1178
00:30:13,958 --> 00:30:14,916
you know, the private key,

1179
00:30:14,916 --> 00:30:16,208
which nowadays is easy to

1180
00:30:16,208 --> 00:30:18,291
convert into 12 or 24 words.

1181
00:30:19,083 --> 00:30:20,458
Um, like English words that

1182
00:30:20,458 --> 00:30:21,666
you can just write down or

1183
00:30:22,000 --> 00:30:23,708
engrave in a steel plate

1184
00:30:24,041 --> 00:30:25,125
and carry all over the world

1185
00:30:25,125 --> 00:30:27,208
with you, that is what allows

1186
00:30:27,208 --> 00:30:28,166
you access to your Bitcoin.

1187
00:30:28,500 --> 00:30:30,166
And in Bitcoin having access

1188
00:30:30,166 --> 00:30:32,208
to the Bitcoin is equivalent

1189
00:30:32,208 --> 00:30:33,541
of owning that Bitcoin because

1190
00:30:33,541 --> 00:30:35,333
everybody who can move the

1191
00:30:35,333 --> 00:30:36,916
Bitcoin owns the Bitcoin.

1192
00:30:37,583 --> 00:30:39,000
Um, so that's how Bitcoin is

1193
00:30:39,000 --> 00:30:40,666
a bearer asset in cyberspace

1194
00:30:40,666 --> 00:30:42,291
because the, the bearer

1195
00:30:42,291 --> 00:30:43,416
asset in a way is almost

1196
00:30:43,416 --> 00:30:45,000
the private keys that give

1197
00:30:45,000 --> 00:30:45,750
you access to the Bitcoin.

1198
00:30:46,041 --> 00:30:47,875
And that's, that's how Bitcoin

1199
00:30:47,875 --> 00:30:48,833
solves for that, for that.

1200
00:30:48,833 --> 00:30:49,875
And it's amazing because

1201
00:30:50,541 --> 00:30:51,958
now you have something where

1202
00:30:52,583 --> 00:30:54,791
if you are worried that

1203
00:30:54,791 --> 00:30:55,833
your government is going

1204
00:30:55,833 --> 00:30:57,666
to put in capital controls

1205
00:30:57,666 --> 00:30:58,583
or potentially become

1206
00:30:58,583 --> 00:31:00,083
tyrannical and the here in

1207
00:31:00,083 --> 00:31:01,166
Australia, you know, at the

1208
00:31:01,166 --> 00:31:02,166
moment we're fine, we ne,

1209
00:31:02,208 --> 00:31:02,958
but we never know what's

1210
00:31:02,958 --> 00:31:03,958
gonna happen in the future.

1211
00:31:04,208 --> 00:31:05,000
I mean, you see a lot of

1212
00:31:05,000 --> 00:31:06,083
stuff happening in Europe

1213
00:31:06,083 --> 00:31:07,708
with like digital ID being

1214
00:31:07,708 --> 00:31:09,791
introduced and them really

1215
00:31:09,791 --> 00:31:11,416
cracking down on free speech.

1216
00:31:12,208 --> 00:31:13,500
And the uk, I mean, this,

1217
00:31:13,500 --> 00:31:14,416
uh, is probably leading

1218
00:31:14,416 --> 00:31:15,291
the way, but Germany

1219
00:31:15,291 --> 00:31:16,500
isn't, isn't far behind.

1220
00:31:16,916 --> 00:31:18,000
Um, but there's a lot of

1221
00:31:18,000 --> 00:31:19,166
countries all over the world

1222
00:31:19,166 --> 00:31:20,666
where things are a lot worse

1223
00:31:20,666 --> 00:31:21,750
already, where governments

1224
00:31:21,750 --> 00:31:23,458
have capital controls, where

1225
00:31:23,458 --> 00:31:24,500
you've got hyper inflating

1226
00:31:24,500 --> 00:31:26,166
currencies where you can't

1227
00:31:26,166 --> 00:31:27,291
actually own anything.

1228
00:31:27,500 --> 00:31:28,958
And even if you own something,

1229
00:31:29,208 --> 00:31:30,375
you can't take it with you,

1230
00:31:30,375 --> 00:31:31,833
like your house that you

1231
00:31:31,833 --> 00:31:33,750
have, you know, in Nigeria or

1232
00:31:33,750 --> 00:31:34,750
Turkey or something like that.

1233
00:31:34,750 --> 00:31:35,458
If you want to flee the

1234
00:31:35,458 --> 00:31:36,708
country for whatever reason,

1235
00:31:37,250 --> 00:31:38,166
you can't take that with you.

1236
00:31:38,166 --> 00:31:39,291
But with Bitcoin, you now

1237
00:31:39,291 --> 00:31:42,250
have a bearer acid sitting in

1238
00:31:42,250 --> 00:31:43,958
cyberspace where all you need

1239
00:31:43,958 --> 00:31:45,583
is a bunch of words that you

1240
00:31:45,583 --> 00:31:47,208
can write down, or worst case

1241
00:31:47,208 --> 00:31:48,291
even remember in your head.

1242
00:31:48,291 --> 00:31:50,000
And you can take millions,

1243
00:31:50,041 --> 00:31:51,916
even billions, all over the

1244
00:31:51,916 --> 00:31:53,208
world without anybody knowing.

1245
00:31:53,208 --> 00:31:54,750
So it's, it's the purest

1246
00:31:54,750 --> 00:31:56,333
form of bearer asset because

1247
00:31:56,333 --> 00:31:58,041
it's pure information only.

1248
00:31:58,333 --> 00:31:59,583
And everything that can

1249
00:31:59,583 --> 00:32:00,458
be represented as pure

1250
00:32:00,458 --> 00:32:02,500
information, um, is, is

1251
00:32:02,500 --> 00:32:03,958
the purest form of itself

1252
00:32:03,958 --> 00:32:05,083
if it is represented

1253
00:32:05,083 --> 00:32:06,458
in information only.

1254
00:32:06,958 --> 00:32:08,875
Yeah, a lot of people struggle

1255
00:32:08,875 --> 00:32:10,250
with Bitcoin not being

1256
00:32:10,291 --> 00:32:12,041
tangible, but one kind of

1257
00:32:12,041 --> 00:32:14,791
example I like to use is you

1258
00:32:14,791 --> 00:32:16,416
can have a filing cabinet at

1259
00:32:16,416 --> 00:32:18,000
home that's physical and you

1260
00:32:18,000 --> 00:32:19,125
can touch it, or you can have

1261
00:32:19,125 --> 00:32:20,916
a filing, you know, a folder

1262
00:32:20,958 --> 00:32:22,458
on on your computer, and you

1263
00:32:22,458 --> 00:32:24,000
don't necessarily think you

1264
00:32:24,000 --> 00:32:25,375
don't own those documents,

1265
00:32:25,375 --> 00:32:26,500
or that those documents

1266
00:32:26,500 --> 00:32:27,541
are not there just because

1267
00:32:27,541 --> 00:32:29,083
it is in a digital format.

1268
00:32:29,500 --> 00:32:30,791
So Bitcoin is

1269
00:32:30,791 --> 00:32:31,875
kind of the same.

1270
00:32:31,875 --> 00:32:33,708
Like you can always come back

1271
00:32:33,791 --> 00:32:35,333
and verify your holdings.

1272
00:32:35,625 --> 00:32:36,541
You can move them, you

1273
00:32:36,541 --> 00:32:37,625
can test them around.

1274
00:32:37,625 --> 00:32:39,416
You can come back five years,

1275
00:32:39,416 --> 00:32:40,833
10 years, 30 years later,

1276
00:32:40,833 --> 00:32:42,041
they're still gonna be there.

1277
00:32:42,458 --> 00:32:44,291
And I think a lot of people

1278
00:32:44,291 --> 00:32:46,583
just, yeah, need time to

1279
00:32:46,583 --> 00:32:48,375
make, make that switch.

1280
00:32:48,833 --> 00:32:52,041
Um, yeah, no, that's a, I

1281
00:32:52,041 --> 00:32:52,958
think that's a brilliant

1282
00:32:52,958 --> 00:32:53,833
analogy, actually.

1283
00:32:53,833 --> 00:32:55,000
Um, no, that's a

1284
00:32:55,000 --> 00:32:55,583
really good one.

1285
00:32:55,583 --> 00:32:56,958
But even then, when you

1286
00:32:56,958 --> 00:33:01,208
think about the, the whole.

1287
00:33:02,208 --> 00:33:04,000
Moving from physical things

1288
00:33:04,000 --> 00:33:05,708
to digital things is something

1289
00:33:05,708 --> 00:33:07,291
that we're not seeing for

1290
00:33:07,291 --> 00:33:08,625
the first time with Bitcoin.

1291
00:33:08,875 --> 00:33:11,791
As you mentioned, files we

1292
00:33:11,791 --> 00:33:12,875
used to have like, especially

1293
00:33:12,875 --> 00:33:14,416
big offices or you know, if

1294
00:33:14,416 --> 00:33:15,250
you think about like a law

1295
00:33:15,250 --> 00:33:16,416
firm or something like that.

1296
00:33:16,416 --> 00:33:17,541
Like they used to have

1297
00:33:18,041 --> 00:33:19,958
rooms filled with old

1298
00:33:19,958 --> 00:33:20,833
files that they would

1299
00:33:20,833 --> 00:33:21,791
then have to look through.

1300
00:33:22,083 --> 00:33:23,000
Now they have everything

1301
00:33:23,000 --> 00:33:24,958
digital where if you wanna

1302
00:33:24,958 --> 00:33:25,791
find something, you just

1303
00:33:25,791 --> 00:33:27,583
hit control F and then you

1304
00:33:27,583 --> 00:33:28,625
can, you can look for it

1305
00:33:28,625 --> 00:33:29,625
and you know, you can go

1306
00:33:29,625 --> 00:33:30,666
through a whole database

1307
00:33:30,666 --> 00:33:31,875
of stuff really easily.

1308
00:33:32,083 --> 00:33:33,833
So we saw that move from, uh,

1309
00:33:33,875 --> 00:33:35,375
with files from physical to

1310
00:33:35,375 --> 00:33:36,791
digital, but we've seen it

1311
00:33:36,791 --> 00:33:37,708
with other things as well.

1312
00:33:37,708 --> 00:33:38,583
If you think about, you

1313
00:33:39,000 --> 00:33:40,250
know, bookstores initially

1314
00:33:40,250 --> 00:33:41,375
what became Amazon.

1315
00:33:42,333 --> 00:33:43,375
They used to be physical,

1316
00:33:43,375 --> 00:33:44,791
then they became online

1317
00:33:45,208 --> 00:33:46,333
shopping in general.

1318
00:33:46,333 --> 00:33:47,916
Used to be purely physical.

1319
00:33:48,000 --> 00:33:48,708
Now you can do it

1320
00:33:48,708 --> 00:33:49,791
digitally as well.

1321
00:33:50,000 --> 00:33:51,166
Friendships, even like

1322
00:33:51,166 --> 00:33:51,750
if you think about

1323
00:33:51,750 --> 00:33:54,125
Facebook, Instagram, no.

1324
00:33:54,208 --> 00:33:55,291
Like obviously there's

1325
00:33:55,291 --> 00:33:56,333
a big physical part of

1326
00:33:56,333 --> 00:33:57,291
that, but part of it has

1327
00:33:57,291 --> 00:33:58,833
also become, uh, digital.

1328
00:33:59,000 --> 00:34:00,666
Same with dating, same

1329
00:34:00,666 --> 00:34:02,750
with movies or music.

1330
00:34:03,666 --> 00:34:05,250
You used to have it, uh, on

1331
00:34:05,250 --> 00:34:08,166
like a cassette or like a cd.

1332
00:34:08,166 --> 00:34:08,208
I do.

1333
00:34:08,208 --> 00:34:08,791
Miss blog stream.

1334
00:34:10,208 --> 00:34:10,708
Exactly.

1335
00:34:10,833 --> 00:34:11,083
No.

1336
00:34:11,083 --> 00:34:12,416
Well, is it blog stream?

1337
00:34:12,666 --> 00:34:13,708
Is that what it was called?

1338
00:34:13,791 --> 00:34:14,208
No.

1339
00:34:14,666 --> 00:34:20,125
Well, um, no, the bias for

1340
00:34:20,666 --> 00:34:21,708
when you used to, when you

1341
00:34:21,708 --> 00:34:23,833
used to go and rent movies

1342
00:34:23,833 --> 00:34:25,583
from a physical location.

1343
00:34:25,583 --> 00:34:26,375
Blockbuster.

1344
00:34:26,375 --> 00:34:27,375
Blockbuster, blockbuster,

1345
00:34:27,375 --> 00:34:28,333
not block string.

1346
00:34:28,333 --> 00:34:29,000
Oh my gosh.

1347
00:34:29,000 --> 00:34:30,000
I'm such a big pointer.

1348
00:34:31,125 --> 00:34:31,625
Block Blockstream is

1349
00:34:31,625 --> 00:34:32,125
because Yeah, yeah.

1350
00:34:32,500 --> 00:34:33,125
Blockbuster.

1351
00:34:33,416 --> 00:34:34,625
No, but like, exactly.

1352
00:34:34,625 --> 00:34:35,750
When, when, when we were

1353
00:34:35,750 --> 00:34:36,750
younger, like when I was a

1354
00:34:36,750 --> 00:34:37,791
kid, you used to have to go

1355
00:34:37,791 --> 00:34:40,041
to like a physical store and

1356
00:34:40,041 --> 00:34:41,708
then, you know, choose a movie

1357
00:34:41,708 --> 00:34:43,166
like a DVD that you wanted to

1358
00:34:43,166 --> 00:34:44,166
rent, and then you'd have to

1359
00:34:44,166 --> 00:34:45,958
take the physical DVD home.

1360
00:34:46,208 --> 00:34:47,083
Same with music.

1361
00:34:47,083 --> 00:34:48,500
Like I, when I was really

1362
00:34:48,500 --> 00:34:50,083
young, like I, for my

1363
00:34:50,083 --> 00:34:51,500
10th birthday, my dad gave

1364
00:34:51,500 --> 00:34:52,916
me like a CD of like an

1365
00:34:52,916 --> 00:34:55,125
album of a German band

1366
00:34:55,125 --> 00:34:55,875
that I really liked.

1367
00:34:55,875 --> 00:34:57,041
You know, like all of those

1368
00:34:57,041 --> 00:34:58,666
things were physical as well.

1369
00:34:58,666 --> 00:34:59,833
Like they had to be stored

1370
00:34:59,833 --> 00:35:00,833
on physical devices.

1371
00:35:00,833 --> 00:35:02,125
And now we have Spotify,

1372
00:35:02,458 --> 00:35:04,625
Netflix, and other platforms

1373
00:35:04,625 --> 00:35:05,666
where everything is digital.

1374
00:35:05,666 --> 00:35:07,375
So this whole move from

1375
00:35:07,375 --> 00:35:08,750
physical to digital is

1376
00:35:08,750 --> 00:35:09,458
something we've seen

1377
00:35:09,458 --> 00:35:10,375
many times before.

1378
00:35:10,375 --> 00:35:11,750
And with money, it's

1379
00:35:11,750 --> 00:35:12,541
just now the next

1380
00:35:12,541 --> 00:35:14,125
iteration of money where.

1381
00:35:14,833 --> 00:35:15,833
We mo we're moving from

1382
00:35:15,833 --> 00:35:18,250
physical gold to digital

1383
00:35:18,333 --> 00:35:19,708
gold, but something that

1384
00:35:19,708 --> 00:35:21,041
can actually become a

1385
00:35:21,041 --> 00:35:22,375
medium of exchange as well.

1386
00:35:22,375 --> 00:35:24,250
So with gold, we now only

1387
00:35:24,250 --> 00:35:25,208
think about as a store

1388
00:35:25,208 --> 00:35:26,708
of value because it's, it

1389
00:35:26,708 --> 00:35:28,083
can't be used as a medium

1390
00:35:28,083 --> 00:35:28,833
of exchange anymore.

1391
00:35:28,833 --> 00:35:30,458
But with Bitcoin, while it

1392
00:35:30,458 --> 00:35:31,750
will start as a store of

1393
00:35:31,750 --> 00:35:32,833
value, and that's the, the

1394
00:35:32,833 --> 00:35:33,875
thesis that a lot of people

1395
00:35:33,875 --> 00:35:35,041
have for Bitcoin right now.

1396
00:35:35,333 --> 00:35:36,583
It actually has the potential

1397
00:35:36,583 --> 00:35:37,750
to move to becoming a

1398
00:35:37,750 --> 00:35:39,083
medium of exchange as well.

1399
00:35:39,458 --> 00:35:41,125
And just on, on that move from

1400
00:35:41,125 --> 00:35:43,416
physical to digital, I think

1401
00:35:43,416 --> 00:35:44,666
one key thing to understand

1402
00:35:44,666 --> 00:35:46,500
there as well is the reason

1403
00:35:46,500 --> 00:35:48,333
why that works for the things

1404
00:35:48,333 --> 00:35:49,750
that are just described is

1405
00:35:49,750 --> 00:35:51,541
that when you think about what

1406
00:35:51,541 --> 00:35:55,125
files are or what, uh, movie

1407
00:35:55,208 --> 00:35:56,833
or music or even knowledge

1408
00:35:56,833 --> 00:35:58,541
like Wikipedia and you know,

1409
00:35:58,958 --> 00:36:00,291
Google and, and all those

1410
00:36:00,291 --> 00:36:01,750
things, what all those things

1411
00:36:01,750 --> 00:36:03,750
are is just information.

1412
00:36:04,541 --> 00:36:05,666
That can be represented

1413
00:36:05,666 --> 00:36:06,625
as ones and zeros.

1414
00:36:06,625 --> 00:36:07,333
Like knowledge is

1415
00:36:07,333 --> 00:36:08,041
just information.

1416
00:36:08,041 --> 00:36:09,291
Music at the end of the day

1417
00:36:09,541 --> 00:36:10,916
is also just information.

1418
00:36:10,916 --> 00:36:12,291
A movie can be broken down

1419
00:36:12,291 --> 00:36:13,541
into pure information.

1420
00:36:13,916 --> 00:36:14,833
So when you think about

1421
00:36:14,833 --> 00:36:17,458
that, wouldn't then the

1422
00:36:17,500 --> 00:36:19,250
like, if we live in a world

1423
00:36:19,250 --> 00:36:20,500
where we constantly want

1424
00:36:20,500 --> 00:36:21,916
to advance as humanity,

1425
00:36:22,208 --> 00:36:23,166
that means that we need

1426
00:36:23,166 --> 00:36:24,875
efficiency and scalability.

1427
00:36:25,333 --> 00:36:27,666
But physical things are

1428
00:36:27,666 --> 00:36:29,000
really bad for scaling and

1429
00:36:29,000 --> 00:36:30,375
for being efficient because

1430
00:36:30,583 --> 00:36:31,833
you have to create copies of

1431
00:36:31,833 --> 00:36:33,041
them, like physical copies

1432
00:36:33,041 --> 00:36:34,291
that need to be on, stored

1433
00:36:34,291 --> 00:36:36,000
on something for information.

1434
00:36:36,000 --> 00:36:37,333
That used to be a book for

1435
00:36:37,333 --> 00:36:38,916
movies that used to be DVDs.

1436
00:36:39,083 --> 00:36:40,500
It's really unscalable

1437
00:36:40,500 --> 00:36:41,458
and really inefficient

1438
00:36:41,458 --> 00:36:43,208
as to, you know, get out

1439
00:36:43,208 --> 00:36:44,500
there to a billion people.

1440
00:36:44,833 --> 00:36:46,000
But something that is

1441
00:36:46,125 --> 00:36:47,083
just information, if you

1442
00:36:47,083 --> 00:36:48,166
represent it as ones and

1443
00:36:48,166 --> 00:36:50,083
zeros, becomes really

1444
00:36:50,083 --> 00:36:51,583
efficient and really scalable.

1445
00:36:52,166 --> 00:36:53,333
So as we advance as

1446
00:36:53,333 --> 00:36:55,083
humans, it completely makes

1447
00:36:55,083 --> 00:36:56,083
sense to move away from

1448
00:36:56,083 --> 00:36:58,000
physical to digital space

1449
00:36:58,041 --> 00:36:59,250
if it's just information.

1450
00:36:59,250 --> 00:37:00,833
Because why not represent

1451
00:37:00,833 --> 00:37:02,041
it in its purest, most

1452
00:37:02,041 --> 00:37:03,500
efficient, most scalable form.

1453
00:37:04,000 --> 00:37:05,833
But money is also

1454
00:37:05,833 --> 00:37:06,958
just information.

1455
00:37:06,958 --> 00:37:09,125
It's like a ledger of who owns

1456
00:37:09,125 --> 00:37:10,791
what and who owes what to who.

1457
00:37:11,291 --> 00:37:12,250
That's all that

1458
00:37:12,250 --> 00:37:13,500
money really is.

1459
00:37:13,583 --> 00:37:14,458
So it's also just

1460
00:37:14,458 --> 00:37:15,333
pure information.

1461
00:37:15,333 --> 00:37:17,250
So why, why keep that in

1462
00:37:17,250 --> 00:37:18,875
a physical form when we

1463
00:37:18,875 --> 00:37:20,125
now have a digital form

1464
00:37:20,125 --> 00:37:21,208
for it that allows for

1465
00:37:21,208 --> 00:37:23,166
scalability and efficiency?

1466
00:37:23,291 --> 00:37:24,500
So when you think about

1467
00:37:24,500 --> 00:37:25,916
that, that whole dynamic

1468
00:37:25,916 --> 00:37:27,875
of information going from

1469
00:37:27,875 --> 00:37:29,500
physical to digital and

1470
00:37:29,500 --> 00:37:30,833
money just being information,

1471
00:37:31,375 --> 00:37:32,125
it's the same thing.

1472
00:37:32,125 --> 00:37:33,250
It's basically logical

1473
00:37:33,250 --> 00:37:33,791
that it will happen.

1474
00:37:34,458 --> 00:37:36,041
Yeah, I love the chart.

1475
00:37:36,041 --> 00:37:37,666
I think Anil said so,

1476
00:37:37,875 --> 00:37:39,250
or created it where he

1477
00:37:39,250 --> 00:37:40,625
talks about that density.

1478
00:37:40,625 --> 00:37:42,125
So you're starting with like,

1479
00:37:42,541 --> 00:37:44,208
you know, books all the way

1480
00:37:44,208 --> 00:37:46,833
down to two terabyte chips

1481
00:37:47,083 --> 00:37:48,083
and the same with money.

1482
00:37:48,083 --> 00:37:49,083
You have gold and then

1483
00:37:49,083 --> 00:37:50,166
you have fiat and then you

1484
00:37:50,166 --> 00:37:51,458
have Bitcoin, which is,

1485
00:37:51,458 --> 00:37:52,875
yeah, the most dense form

1486
00:37:52,875 --> 00:37:54,875
of information there is.

1487
00:37:54,875 --> 00:37:55,541
I really, I really

1488
00:37:55,541 --> 00:37:56,375
like that chart.

1489
00:37:56,375 --> 00:37:58,208
Um, uh, I'm a visual person,

1490
00:37:58,208 --> 00:37:59,750
so, so like anything that

1491
00:37:59,750 --> 00:38:01,708
kind of paints, paints a

1492
00:38:01,708 --> 00:38:03,333
picture of the key concepts.

1493
00:38:03,750 --> 00:38:06,500
Um, I wanted to also ask you,

1494
00:38:06,500 --> 00:38:08,500
'cause what you said in, um,

1495
00:38:08,500 --> 00:38:10,000
I think your Prague talk, you

1496
00:38:10,000 --> 00:38:12,541
were talking about the way

1497
00:38:12,541 --> 00:38:14,208
that money is adoption and

1498
00:38:14,208 --> 00:38:16,750
it follows four key steps.

1499
00:38:16,750 --> 00:38:17,916
I knew of the three, I

1500
00:38:17,916 --> 00:38:19,000
didn't know of the first

1501
00:38:19,000 --> 00:38:20,291
one and I'm like, that

1502
00:38:20,291 --> 00:38:21,791
makes so much sense.

1503
00:38:22,208 --> 00:38:22,750
Um.

1504
00:38:23,250 --> 00:38:24,250
So do you wanna talk

1505
00:38:24,250 --> 00:38:25,875
about how it all starts

1506
00:38:25,875 --> 00:38:26,666
as a collectible?

1507
00:38:26,666 --> 00:38:27,000
Good.

1508
00:38:28,000 --> 00:38:28,583
Yes.

1509
00:38:28,625 --> 00:38:30,083
Yeah, I will talk about that.

1510
00:38:30,416 --> 00:38:32,000
And this, this also comes

1511
00:38:32,000 --> 00:38:33,375
back to what I just said about

1512
00:38:33,375 --> 00:38:35,541
Bitcoin and how currently it

1513
00:38:35,541 --> 00:38:36,708
might be seen as a store of

1514
00:38:36,708 --> 00:38:38,333
value by more and more people

1515
00:38:38,333 --> 00:38:39,750
and how it has the potential

1516
00:38:39,750 --> 00:38:41,083
to move to minimum exchange.

1517
00:38:41,541 --> 00:38:42,208
That's how, how

1518
00:38:42,208 --> 00:38:43,041
that all fits in.

1519
00:38:43,041 --> 00:38:45,000
So another thing that you

1520
00:38:45,000 --> 00:38:47,000
learn from studying human

1521
00:38:47,000 --> 00:38:48,208
history, but also the history

1522
00:38:48,208 --> 00:38:50,875
of money, is that those goods

1523
00:38:50,875 --> 00:38:52,458
that are freely chosen by

1524
00:38:52,458 --> 00:38:53,708
people as money is through

1525
00:38:53,708 --> 00:38:55,083
free market competition.

1526
00:38:55,500 --> 00:38:57,625
They tend to monetize in four

1527
00:38:57,625 --> 00:38:59,666
stages, and the first stage

1528
00:38:59,666 --> 00:39:00,958
is that they start off as

1529
00:39:00,958 --> 00:39:02,875
a collectible where people

1530
00:39:02,875 --> 00:39:05,250
start collecting it for some

1531
00:39:05,250 --> 00:39:06,666
reason back in the day, like

1532
00:39:06,666 --> 00:39:07,791
for seashells for example,

1533
00:39:07,791 --> 00:39:09,208
they thought seashells were

1534
00:39:09,250 --> 00:39:10,791
beautiful and, and look good.

1535
00:39:11,708 --> 00:39:12,541
But they were also kind

1536
00:39:12,541 --> 00:39:13,583
of rare because if you

1537
00:39:13,583 --> 00:39:14,375
live, if you don't live

1538
00:39:14,375 --> 00:39:15,208
by the beach, it's hard

1539
00:39:15,208 --> 00:39:16,583
to come by seashells.

1540
00:39:16,875 --> 00:39:18,375
So they humans had this

1541
00:39:18,583 --> 00:39:19,875
thing of like valuing

1542
00:39:19,875 --> 00:39:21,875
beautiful scarce things.

1543
00:39:22,208 --> 00:39:23,500
Um, so they started collecting

1544
00:39:23,500 --> 00:39:25,125
them, but then once enough

1545
00:39:25,125 --> 00:39:27,416
people collect something, it's

1546
00:39:27,458 --> 00:39:29,125
um, it's value rises, it's

1547
00:39:29,125 --> 00:39:30,708
purchasing power also rises.

1548
00:39:30,958 --> 00:39:32,166
Um, you know, as more

1549
00:39:32,166 --> 00:39:32,916
and more people do that

1550
00:39:32,916 --> 00:39:34,125
because everybody starts

1551
00:39:34,125 --> 00:39:35,500
seeing that as valuable.

1552
00:39:36,250 --> 00:39:38,250
And then once enough people

1553
00:39:38,250 --> 00:39:39,625
collect something, it will

1554
00:39:39,625 --> 00:39:41,333
actually be a commonly used

1555
00:39:41,333 --> 00:39:42,583
store of value, which means

1556
00:39:42,583 --> 00:39:44,166
that almost everybody starts

1557
00:39:44,166 --> 00:39:45,583
using that to store value.

1558
00:39:45,583 --> 00:39:47,666
So they, when they provide

1559
00:39:47,666 --> 00:39:49,750
value to other people, ask for

1560
00:39:49,750 --> 00:39:51,125
that thing or wanna have that

1561
00:39:51,125 --> 00:39:52,125
thing because they wanna store

1562
00:39:52,125 --> 00:39:53,166
their value in that thing.

1563
00:39:53,166 --> 00:39:55,125
And then at some point that

1564
00:39:55,333 --> 00:39:57,125
purchasing power rises enough

1565
00:39:57,125 --> 00:39:59,291
and plateaus where it reaches

1566
00:39:59,291 --> 00:40:00,541
some kind of equilibrium,

1567
00:40:00,833 --> 00:40:02,500
where it's pretty stable in

1568
00:40:02,500 --> 00:40:04,208
terms of what you can exchange

1569
00:40:04,208 --> 00:40:05,458
that store of value for.

1570
00:40:05,791 --> 00:40:06,791
And at that point, it

1571
00:40:06,791 --> 00:40:07,958
moves from store of value

1572
00:40:07,958 --> 00:40:09,041
to becoming a medium of

1573
00:40:09,041 --> 00:40:10,041
exchange where it's the

1574
00:40:10,041 --> 00:40:11,291
thing that is the most

1575
00:40:11,291 --> 00:40:12,166
tradable good and that

1576
00:40:12,166 --> 00:40:14,041
everybody uses to exchange

1577
00:40:14,041 --> 00:40:15,041
value with one another.

1578
00:40:15,750 --> 00:40:16,958
And then once it's a medium

1579
00:40:17,041 --> 00:40:18,166
exchange, it usually.

1580
00:40:18,708 --> 00:40:20,375
Simultaneously becomes a unit

1581
00:40:20,375 --> 00:40:21,750
of account where people start

1582
00:40:22,083 --> 00:40:24,083
pricing goods and services

1583
00:40:24,333 --> 00:40:26,125
in that money that they use.

1584
00:40:26,250 --> 00:40:27,291
So nowadays, if you go to

1585
00:40:27,291 --> 00:40:28,375
Woolies, everything's priced

1586
00:40:28,375 --> 00:40:29,375
in Australian dollars.

1587
00:40:29,750 --> 00:40:31,041
But back in the day,

1588
00:40:31,041 --> 00:40:31,625
everything would

1589
00:40:31,625 --> 00:40:32,666
be priced in gold.

1590
00:40:32,666 --> 00:40:33,750
So if you went to the pub,

1591
00:40:33,833 --> 00:40:35,208
um, you know, and you wanted

1592
00:40:36,083 --> 00:40:37,416
10 beers for you and your

1593
00:40:37,416 --> 00:40:39,041
mates, um, then you, you,

1594
00:40:39,041 --> 00:40:39,958
you would know how much

1595
00:40:39,958 --> 00:40:40,916
gold that would cost because

1596
00:40:40,916 --> 00:40:42,208
there would be a gold price

1597
00:40:42,500 --> 00:40:43,666
attached to those beers.

1598
00:40:45,125 --> 00:40:45,375
Yeah.

1599
00:40:45,875 --> 00:40:46,500
And I'd learned

1600
00:40:46,500 --> 00:40:47,708
something yesterday.

1601
00:40:47,708 --> 00:40:48,875
I was yesterday years old

1602
00:40:48,875 --> 00:40:49,750
when I learned about the

1603
00:40:49,750 --> 00:40:51,041
history of like the gold

1604
00:40:51,041 --> 00:40:52,416
coins and why they have

1605
00:40:52,500 --> 00:40:54,125
like, not gold coins anymore,

1606
00:40:54,125 --> 00:40:55,791
but why coins used to have

1607
00:40:55,791 --> 00:40:57,375
and still do ridges mm-hmm.

1608
00:40:58,458 --> 00:41:00,041
To prevent them, you know,

1609
00:41:00,041 --> 00:41:01,125
I think it would make it

1610
00:41:01,125 --> 00:41:03,083
easier if someone was shaving

1611
00:41:03,083 --> 00:41:05,000
off clippings to, you know,

1612
00:41:05,000 --> 00:41:06,791
try preserve more gold.

1613
00:41:06,791 --> 00:41:08,500
But the funny thing is those

1614
00:41:08,500 --> 00:41:10,416
ridges are still there today.

1615
00:41:11,541 --> 00:41:12,000
Yeah, yeah.

1616
00:41:12,000 --> 00:41:12,375
True.

1617
00:41:12,375 --> 00:41:13,000
That is funny.

1618
00:41:13,208 --> 00:41:13,625
That is funny.

1619
00:41:13,625 --> 00:41:14,416
It's a bit ironic.

1620
00:41:15,125 --> 00:41:15,416
Yeah.

1621
00:41:16,458 --> 00:41:17,458
Uh, do you know where

1622
00:41:17,458 --> 00:41:18,583
the, where the term

1623
00:41:18,583 --> 00:41:20,125
sound money comes from?

1624
00:41:20,125 --> 00:41:20,916
Like why it's called

1625
00:41:20,916 --> 00:41:24,041
Sound Austrian Econ?

1626
00:41:24,041 --> 00:41:24,250
I don't know.

1627
00:41:26,041 --> 00:41:27,041
I mean, yes, they, they are

1628
00:41:27,041 --> 00:41:28,416
the ones who termed that,

1629
00:41:28,416 --> 00:41:30,250
but, um, I've, I've heard

1630
00:41:30,250 --> 00:41:32,041
many times people talk about.

1631
00:41:32,750 --> 00:41:34,708
How back in the day when we

1632
00:41:34,708 --> 00:41:36,166
were using gold as money and

1633
00:41:36,166 --> 00:41:37,583
we would have gold coins,

1634
00:41:37,833 --> 00:41:38,708
it would actually be pretty

1635
00:41:38,708 --> 00:41:40,500
difficult to know whether

1636
00:41:40,500 --> 00:41:42,041
what you were getting was pure

1637
00:41:42,041 --> 00:41:44,125
gold or another form of metal

1638
00:41:44,125 --> 00:41:45,916
that was just laced with gold.

1639
00:41:46,583 --> 00:41:47,083
Something that you,

1640
00:41:47,208 --> 00:41:48,125
you just explained.

1641
00:41:48,375 --> 00:41:49,625
And one thing that people

1642
00:41:49,625 --> 00:41:51,458
used to do is they would

1643
00:41:51,458 --> 00:41:53,708
train themselves to recognize

1644
00:41:53,708 --> 00:41:55,125
the sound that a gold coin

1645
00:41:55,125 --> 00:41:56,041
would make if you dropped

1646
00:41:56,041 --> 00:41:57,500
it on a hard surface.

1647
00:41:57,625 --> 00:41:58,833
And that was a very quick

1648
00:41:58,833 --> 00:42:00,041
and easy way to verify

1649
00:42:00,041 --> 00:42:00,791
whether what you just

1650
00:42:00,791 --> 00:42:01,833
got was actually gold.

1651
00:42:01,833 --> 00:42:02,666
Because it makes a

1652
00:42:02,666 --> 00:42:03,791
distinct sound when you

1653
00:42:03,791 --> 00:42:04,833
drop it on a hard surface

1654
00:42:04,833 --> 00:42:06,083
compared to other metals.

1655
00:42:06,416 --> 00:42:07,708
And that's part of the reason

1656
00:42:07,708 --> 00:42:09,291
why it's called sound money.

1657
00:42:09,708 --> 00:42:10,416
I love it.

1658
00:42:10,416 --> 00:42:10,875
I love it.

1659
00:42:10,875 --> 00:42:11,708
I love hearing these

1660
00:42:11,708 --> 00:42:12,500
like random little

1661
00:42:12,500 --> 00:42:13,875
pieces in history.

1662
00:42:14,083 --> 00:42:15,250
Um, yeah, just to go on

1663
00:42:15,250 --> 00:42:16,500
a little tangent as well,

1664
00:42:16,500 --> 00:42:17,750
something that I learned,

1665
00:42:18,125 --> 00:42:20,833
um, I'm reading, uh, Robert.

1666
00:42:21,125 --> 00:42:22,916
Uh, Robert p Murphy's book

1667
00:42:22,916 --> 00:42:25,166
Choice at the moment, and

1668
00:42:25,458 --> 00:42:26,458
this is where I learned

1669
00:42:26,458 --> 00:42:28,833
that, um, Austrian economics

1670
00:42:28,833 --> 00:42:31,000
came as a derogatory term.

1671
00:42:31,708 --> 00:42:33,250
It was really, yeah.

1672
00:42:33,250 --> 00:42:34,375
So, so it was used in

1673
00:42:34,375 --> 00:42:37,833
Germany to kind of, um, to,

1674
00:42:37,833 --> 00:42:40,083
to, yeah, I think it was

1675
00:42:40,083 --> 00:42:41,833
against Menger, potentially.

1676
00:42:41,875 --> 00:42:43,208
Um, yeah, it was used as

1677
00:42:43,208 --> 00:42:45,000
a derogatory term because

1678
00:42:45,166 --> 00:42:46,916
Austria was kind of considered

1679
00:42:47,541 --> 00:42:49,916
for whatever reason, inferior

1680
00:42:49,958 --> 00:42:51,666
and because it just sort

1681
00:42:51,666 --> 00:42:54,333
of stuck around it, it,

1682
00:42:54,333 --> 00:42:55,583
it, it, that's how, what

1683
00:42:55,583 --> 00:42:57,458
it became later on and also

1684
00:42:57,458 --> 00:42:59,583
reminds me again of how.

1685
00:43:00,041 --> 00:43:01,875
The term Maxism or Bitcoin.

1686
00:43:01,875 --> 00:43:03,375
Maxism again, came as

1687
00:43:03,375 --> 00:43:05,083
a derogatory term from

1688
00:43:05,083 --> 00:43:07,166
Ethereum, folks like, you

1689
00:43:07,166 --> 00:43:08,625
know, and it stuck around.

1690
00:43:08,791 --> 00:43:09,791
We're like, we'll take it.

1691
00:43:09,791 --> 00:43:12,541
Thank you Bitcoiners and,

1692
00:43:12,791 --> 00:43:14,916
and maybe hard money, um,

1693
00:43:15,250 --> 00:43:17,500
fans or maybe, um, I guess

1694
00:43:17,500 --> 00:43:19,125
every Bitcoin is an Austrian

1695
00:43:19,125 --> 00:43:20,625
economist in a way, at at

1696
00:43:20,625 --> 00:43:22,333
least partly, uh, maybe

1697
00:43:22,333 --> 00:43:23,625
there's something about us

1698
00:43:23,958 --> 00:43:27,458
where if people try to make

1699
00:43:27,458 --> 00:43:29,500
fun of us or make us seem,

1700
00:43:29,500 --> 00:43:32,000
you know, extreme or inferior,

1701
00:43:32,500 --> 00:43:34,125
um, we just have a way of

1702
00:43:34,125 --> 00:43:36,000
like finding that funny and

1703
00:43:36,000 --> 00:43:37,125
just, just running with it.

1704
00:43:37,125 --> 00:43:37,666
Like, that's how a

1705
00:43:37,666 --> 00:43:38,666
lot of stuff happens.

1706
00:43:38,666 --> 00:43:39,250
Like even.

1707
00:43:39,916 --> 00:43:41,083
I think it was Brett Galling

1708
00:43:41,083 --> 00:43:44,458
house, the XRP founder, who

1709
00:43:44,500 --> 00:43:46,208
together with Greenpeace, um,

1710
00:43:46,208 --> 00:43:49,000
created this skull, um, with

1711
00:43:49,000 --> 00:43:50,333
like smoke coming out of it.

1712
00:43:50,375 --> 00:43:51,750
Like, you know, really ugly

1713
00:43:51,750 --> 00:43:52,541
looking that was supposed

1714
00:43:52,541 --> 00:43:54,500
to represent how bad Bitcoin

1715
00:43:54,500 --> 00:43:55,333
is for the environment

1716
00:43:55,333 --> 00:43:56,041
and Bitcoin, Bitcoin

1717
00:43:56,291 --> 00:43:57,125
has saw that and we're

1718
00:43:57,125 --> 00:43:58,000
like, wow, this actually

1719
00:43:58,000 --> 00:43:59,791
a really cool sculpture.

1720
00:43:59,833 --> 00:44:00,708
And I think it cost a

1721
00:44:00,708 --> 00:44:01,750
lot of money to create.

1722
00:44:01,750 --> 00:44:03,125
And now at the Bitcoin

1723
00:44:03,125 --> 00:44:04,750
conference, um, in Las

1724
00:44:04,750 --> 00:44:05,583
Vegas, I think this

1725
00:44:05,583 --> 00:44:06,125
year they were actually

1726
00:44:06,125 --> 00:44:07,958
displaying Thecal because

1727
00:44:07,958 --> 00:44:08,958
they thought it was so cool.

1728
00:44:09,125 --> 00:44:10,833
But it was like initially made

1729
00:44:10,833 --> 00:44:12,583
to attack Bitcoin and, you

1730
00:44:12,583 --> 00:44:14,833
know, portray in an artistic

1731
00:44:14,833 --> 00:44:16,166
way how bad Bitcoin is for

1732
00:44:16,166 --> 00:44:17,500
the environment supposedly.

1733
00:44:18,041 --> 00:44:19,291
Um, and Bitcoin has

1734
00:44:19,291 --> 00:44:20,000
just ran with it.

1735
00:44:20,000 --> 00:44:21,791
Same with the term like holo

1736
00:44:21,791 --> 00:44:23,541
and like, like other stuff.

1737
00:44:23,625 --> 00:44:25,416
Um, yeah, we, we just

1738
00:44:25,416 --> 00:44:25,875
like those things.

1739
00:44:25,916 --> 00:44:26,041
Oh.

1740
00:44:26,041 --> 00:44:26,833
When people started calling

1741
00:44:26,833 --> 00:44:28,000
us psychopaths and every

1742
00:44:28,000 --> 00:44:28,958
Bitcoin just went with that,

1743
00:44:30,583 --> 00:44:31,750
but like for each other

1744
00:44:31,750 --> 00:44:33,125
Good morning psychopaths.

1745
00:44:33,708 --> 00:44:33,833
Yeah.

1746
00:44:36,875 --> 00:44:37,166
Yeah.

1747
00:44:37,291 --> 00:44:38,875
Yeah, it, it, it's weird

1748
00:44:38,875 --> 00:44:42,208
because, um, you know, since

1749
00:44:42,208 --> 00:44:43,708
I came out of the closet as

1750
00:44:43,708 --> 00:44:45,208
a Bitcoin on LinkedIn, it's

1751
00:44:45,208 --> 00:44:46,708
been really interesting.

1752
00:44:46,708 --> 00:44:48,125
It, it is a very divisive

1753
00:44:48,125 --> 00:44:50,750
topic and I've met so many

1754
00:44:50,750 --> 00:44:51,958
great friends from all over

1755
00:44:51,958 --> 00:44:52,666
the world that you just

1756
00:44:52,666 --> 00:44:54,291
click with instantaneously

1757
00:44:54,291 --> 00:44:55,875
because you all have

1758
00:44:55,958 --> 00:44:57,583
like, shared core values.

1759
00:44:57,583 --> 00:44:58,291
You'll wanna see a

1760
00:44:58,291 --> 00:44:59,708
better world essentially.

1761
00:45:00,083 --> 00:45:00,916
Um, we're not

1762
00:45:00,958 --> 00:45:02,250
apologetic about that.

1763
00:45:02,250 --> 00:45:03,333
We really think that, you

1764
00:45:03,333 --> 00:45:04,791
know, fixing the money can

1765
00:45:04,791 --> 00:45:06,833
fix everyone's lifestyle and

1766
00:45:06,833 --> 00:45:07,916
a lot of the problems that

1767
00:45:07,916 --> 00:45:09,208
the world is facing today,

1768
00:45:09,458 --> 00:45:11,000
not everything, but a lot.

1769
00:45:11,416 --> 00:45:13,708
Um, but it's interesting how

1770
00:45:14,083 --> 00:45:15,500
it seems to trigger a lot

1771
00:45:15,500 --> 00:45:16,708
of people, like, if I was

1772
00:45:16,708 --> 00:45:18,625
to recommend a movie to you

1773
00:45:18,708 --> 00:45:19,708
and I'm gushing about it,

1774
00:45:19,708 --> 00:45:20,750
I'm like, oh, you have to

1775
00:45:20,750 --> 00:45:22,041
see this movie or read this

1776
00:45:22,041 --> 00:45:23,583
book ly love it, da da da.

1777
00:45:24,083 --> 00:45:24,750
You'd be like, oh my God,

1778
00:45:24,750 --> 00:45:25,791
I wanna know more about it.

1779
00:45:26,541 --> 00:45:27,541
But you do the same thing

1780
00:45:27,541 --> 00:45:28,625
with Bitcoin and, and

1781
00:45:28,625 --> 00:45:29,750
for some people it just

1782
00:45:29,750 --> 00:45:31,708
triggers discomfort and.

1783
00:45:32,166 --> 00:45:33,083
I'm really curious to

1784
00:45:33,083 --> 00:45:34,041
know psychologically

1785
00:45:34,041 --> 00:45:35,291
where that comes from.

1786
00:45:35,541 --> 00:45:37,500
Um, it could be aversion

1787
00:45:37,500 --> 00:45:40,166
to change, it could be fear

1788
00:45:40,166 --> 00:45:42,000
of the unknown, it could

1789
00:45:42,000 --> 00:45:43,708
be, you know, shame that

1790
00:45:43,708 --> 00:45:45,250
people hold around money.

1791
00:45:45,625 --> 00:45:46,958
And I guess this is

1792
00:45:46,958 --> 00:45:48,833
leading into the question.

1793
00:45:48,875 --> 00:45:50,625
You obviously, you know,

1794
00:45:50,875 --> 00:45:52,666
you work in, in a corporate

1795
00:45:52,666 --> 00:45:54,958
fiat world and you are a

1796
00:45:55,208 --> 00:45:57,208
Bitcoin and, and I wanna know

1797
00:45:57,208 --> 00:45:58,500
about how that transition

1798
00:45:58,500 --> 00:45:59,750
for you happened, do you

1799
00:46:00,083 --> 00:46:02,000
feel, you know, at home?

1800
00:46:04,541 --> 00:46:07,041
I mean, now at the moment,

1801
00:46:07,041 --> 00:46:09,250
to be honest, um, it,

1802
00:46:09,916 --> 00:46:11,000
it feels pretty good

1803
00:46:11,125 --> 00:46:13,166
to, to be a Bitcoin now.

1804
00:46:13,791 --> 00:46:15,250
Um, at, at least within a

1805
00:46:15,250 --> 00:46:16,958
MP I'm not sure how people

1806
00:46:16,958 --> 00:46:18,041
at other superannuation

1807
00:46:18,041 --> 00:46:19,166
funds or in the finance

1808
00:46:19,166 --> 00:46:20,666
world in, in general feel.

1809
00:46:21,208 --> 00:46:22,083
Um, but I think that's

1810
00:46:22,083 --> 00:46:24,833
because a MP, you know, was

1811
00:46:24,833 --> 00:46:26,625
courageous enough, um, to, to

1812
00:46:26,625 --> 00:46:27,708
make that move into Bitcoin,

1813
00:46:27,833 --> 00:46:28,708
even though it's a really,

1814
00:46:28,708 --> 00:46:29,875
really small allocation.

1815
00:46:30,625 --> 00:46:31,875
But we've now, we've seen

1816
00:46:31,875 --> 00:46:33,291
really good returns on that.

1817
00:46:33,291 --> 00:46:35,625
I mean, we, we put Bitcoin

1818
00:46:35,625 --> 00:46:36,750
into our portfolios at a

1819
00:46:36,750 --> 00:46:39,333
small allocation in May last

1820
00:46:39,333 --> 00:46:40,208
year, you know, somewhere

1821
00:46:40,208 --> 00:46:42,541
in the mid 60 thousands US

1822
00:46:42,541 --> 00:46:43,916
dollar, and now we're at

1823
00:46:43,916 --> 00:46:46,083
122,000 as of this morning.

1824
00:46:46,083 --> 00:46:48,083
So up like a hundred

1825
00:46:48,083 --> 00:46:48,958
percent almost.

1826
00:46:49,416 --> 00:46:50,958
Um, so of course that has

1827
00:46:50,958 --> 00:46:51,791
been good, but also the

1828
00:46:51,791 --> 00:46:53,500
Bitcoin space has evolved

1829
00:46:53,500 --> 00:46:56,375
so positively with, I

1830
00:46:56,375 --> 00:46:57,916
mean, Larry Fink, the CEO

1831
00:46:57,916 --> 00:46:59,291
of BlackRock is like on

1832
00:46:59,291 --> 00:47:01,208
CNBC basically every week.

1833
00:47:01,208 --> 00:47:02,833
Shilling Bitcoin like,

1834
00:47:03,208 --> 00:47:04,625
like, uh, hardcore Bitcoin.

1835
00:47:04,625 --> 00:47:06,125
I would, uh, but you have

1836
00:47:06,125 --> 00:47:07,875
other people like Ray Dalio,

1837
00:47:08,083 --> 00:47:09,375
Paul Tudor Jones, you know,

1838
00:47:09,375 --> 00:47:10,541
like really well respected

1839
00:47:10,541 --> 00:47:11,708
hedge fund managers talking

1840
00:47:11,708 --> 00:47:13,500
positively about Bitcoin.

1841
00:47:13,500 --> 00:47:14,708
JP Morgan just came out with

1842
00:47:14,708 --> 00:47:16,208
a report where they compared

1843
00:47:16,625 --> 00:47:18,041
Bitcoin to gold and how on

1844
00:47:18,041 --> 00:47:19,458
a volatility and correlation

1845
00:47:19,458 --> 00:47:20,791
adjusted basis, they think

1846
00:47:20,791 --> 00:47:22,958
Bitcoin should be at 165,000,

1847
00:47:23,416 --> 00:47:25,291
um, using gold as the anchor.

1848
00:47:26,000 --> 00:47:27,416
Um, Deutsche Bank put out

1849
00:47:27,416 --> 00:47:29,416
a research report a week

1850
00:47:29,416 --> 00:47:30,833
and a half ago where they

1851
00:47:31,041 --> 00:47:32,250
evaluate whether they think

1852
00:47:32,250 --> 00:47:33,541
there's a place for Bitcoin

1853
00:47:33,583 --> 00:47:35,083
in Central Bank reserves by

1854
00:47:35,083 --> 00:47:36,541
2030, and their conclusion

1855
00:47:36,541 --> 00:47:38,000
was that there was a place

1856
00:47:38,000 --> 00:47:40,500
for both gold and Bitcoin in

1857
00:47:40,500 --> 00:47:42,000
Central Bank reserves by 2030.

1858
00:47:42,000 --> 00:47:42,916
And this is Deutsche Bank

1859
00:47:42,916 --> 00:47:43,708
putting out this paper.

1860
00:47:43,708 --> 00:47:45,541
So the, the, the whole finance

1861
00:47:45,541 --> 00:47:46,750
world is starting to wake up

1862
00:47:46,750 --> 00:47:48,291
to the fact that, you know,

1863
00:47:48,291 --> 00:47:49,750
Bitcoin is a legitimate asset.

1864
00:47:49,750 --> 00:47:51,250
Bitcoin is potentially

1865
00:47:51,250 --> 00:47:52,791
this, you know, new reserve

1866
00:47:52,791 --> 00:47:54,416
asset in a digital world.

1867
00:47:54,625 --> 00:47:56,250
Mm. Um, and, and a lot

1868
00:47:56,250 --> 00:47:56,958
of people in the finance

1869
00:47:56,958 --> 00:47:57,708
space are seeing that.

1870
00:47:57,708 --> 00:47:58,916
So our investment team,

1871
00:47:59,541 --> 00:48:00,416
um, they, they hear

1872
00:48:00,416 --> 00:48:01,333
about that stuff as well.

1873
00:48:01,333 --> 00:48:02,541
It's oftentimes because I,

1874
00:48:03,208 --> 00:48:04,958
I share articles with them

1875
00:48:04,958 --> 00:48:06,125
or like show them, you know,

1876
00:48:06,208 --> 00:48:07,458
oh, look at this, look at

1877
00:48:07,458 --> 00:48:08,708
this paper that came out.

1878
00:48:08,750 --> 00:48:09,375
Um, yeah.

1879
00:48:09,625 --> 00:48:10,500
And, and, and all

1880
00:48:10,500 --> 00:48:10,875
of that stuff.

1881
00:48:10,875 --> 00:48:11,541
So they probably hear

1882
00:48:11,541 --> 00:48:12,750
more about it than people

1883
00:48:12,750 --> 00:48:13,833
at other firms would.

1884
00:48:13,958 --> 00:48:15,500
Um, but it wasn't

1885
00:48:15,500 --> 00:48:16,250
always this way.

1886
00:48:16,250 --> 00:48:17,291
So I started with a

1887
00:48:17,291 --> 00:48:20,416
and P in 2022 and.

1888
00:48:20,833 --> 00:48:22,375
I would try to talk to people

1889
00:48:22,375 --> 00:48:24,041
about Bitcoin here and there.

1890
00:48:24,583 --> 00:48:25,750
The problem was that

1891
00:48:26,833 --> 00:48:28,666
there would always be one

1892
00:48:28,666 --> 00:48:29,958
or two people who would

1893
00:48:29,958 --> 00:48:31,416
be super skeptical and

1894
00:48:31,416 --> 00:48:32,333
critical of it and would

1895
00:48:32,416 --> 00:48:33,583
shut it down straight away.

1896
00:48:33,583 --> 00:48:34,666
Like even in, in like a

1897
00:48:34,666 --> 00:48:35,833
bigger team conversation,

1898
00:48:35,833 --> 00:48:37,041
it would get shut down

1899
00:48:37,041 --> 00:48:38,083
very, very easily.

1900
00:48:38,416 --> 00:48:39,166
The only thing that I

1901
00:48:39,166 --> 00:48:40,416
found was that at the time

1902
00:48:40,416 --> 00:48:41,541
there were a few grads

1903
00:48:41,541 --> 00:48:42,875
working with us that, that

1904
00:48:42,875 --> 00:48:44,208
had just come out of uni.

1905
00:48:44,583 --> 00:48:45,791
They were really receptive to

1906
00:48:45,791 --> 00:48:47,125
what I was saying because I

1907
00:48:47,125 --> 00:48:48,625
guess they, they were young.

1908
00:48:48,625 --> 00:48:49,958
They, you know, had interacted

1909
00:48:49,958 --> 00:48:52,750
with crypto before and they

1910
00:48:52,750 --> 00:48:53,708
thought it was fascinating

1911
00:48:53,708 --> 00:48:54,666
to, to learn about the

1912
00:48:54,666 --> 00:48:55,625
history of money and, and

1913
00:48:55,625 --> 00:48:56,500
those sorts of things.

1914
00:48:56,500 --> 00:48:58,000
But it was more a lot of

1915
00:48:58,000 --> 00:48:59,791
the people who had been in

1916
00:49:00,000 --> 00:49:01,125
traditional finance for a

1917
00:49:01,125 --> 00:49:02,916
long time, who had, you know,

1918
00:49:02,916 --> 00:49:04,458
been in the industry for ages

1919
00:49:04,458 --> 00:49:06,666
where I, I noticed that it

1920
00:49:06,666 --> 00:49:07,958
is actually, it's probably

1921
00:49:07,958 --> 00:49:09,041
one of the biggest hurdles

1922
00:49:09,041 --> 00:49:09,916
you can have to understand

1923
00:49:10,125 --> 00:49:11,916
Bitcoin is being in the

1924
00:49:11,916 --> 00:49:13,083
finance industry for a very

1925
00:49:13,083 --> 00:49:14,625
long time, or in economics for

1926
00:49:14,625 --> 00:49:15,666
a really long time because.

1927
00:49:16,416 --> 00:49:17,333
Bitcoin questions

1928
00:49:17,875 --> 00:49:18,958
or understanding for

1929
00:49:18,958 --> 00:49:19,708
understanding Bitcoin, you

1930
00:49:19,708 --> 00:49:20,750
have to question all of the

1931
00:49:20,750 --> 00:49:22,333
assumptions of everything that

1932
00:49:22,333 --> 00:49:23,500
you've known up until this

1933
00:49:23,500 --> 00:49:24,750
point, and you have to put

1934
00:49:25,166 --> 00:49:26,500
everything that you know up

1935
00:49:26,500 --> 00:49:29,000
until now aside and start from

1936
00:49:29,000 --> 00:49:30,958
scratch With Bitcoin, there's

1937
00:49:30,958 --> 00:49:32,125
no prior knowledge that you

1938
00:49:32,125 --> 00:49:33,291
can really use that's really

1939
00:49:33,291 --> 00:49:34,583
helpful, unless you were an

1940
00:49:34,583 --> 00:49:36,416
Austrian economist or maybe if

1941
00:49:36,416 --> 00:49:38,333
you are, um, like a computer

1942
00:49:38,333 --> 00:49:39,500
scientist, it helps because

1943
00:49:39,500 --> 00:49:40,791
you understand networks and

1944
00:49:40,791 --> 00:49:42,000
cryptography and those things.

1945
00:49:42,000 --> 00:49:43,250
But other than that,

1946
00:49:43,250 --> 00:49:44,250
everybody starts from

1947
00:49:44,250 --> 00:49:45,083
sketch with Bitcoin.

1948
00:49:46,041 --> 00:49:47,125
And I find that that's a

1949
00:49:47,125 --> 00:49:48,000
big hurdle for a lot of

1950
00:49:48,000 --> 00:49:49,291
people in, in tra file.

1951
00:49:49,750 --> 00:49:50,875
Um, but yeah, coming back to

1952
00:49:50,875 --> 00:49:52,041
my experience, it, it really

1953
00:49:52,041 --> 00:49:53,541
changed at the beginning

1954
00:49:53,541 --> 00:49:54,958
of last year when the ETFs

1955
00:49:55,125 --> 00:49:57,083
launched in the us um, where

1956
00:49:57,083 --> 00:49:58,666
we now have, I think it's 11

1957
00:49:58,666 --> 00:50:00,291
spot Bitcoin ETFs in the us.

1958
00:50:00,541 --> 00:50:01,541
We have ETFs here in

1959
00:50:01,541 --> 00:50:03,208
Australia now they're thinking

1960
00:50:03,208 --> 00:50:05,208
about like ETPs in Europe.

1961
00:50:05,333 --> 00:50:06,625
Um, and when, when that

1962
00:50:06,625 --> 00:50:07,958
happened, like when BlackRock

1963
00:50:07,958 --> 00:50:09,333
and Fidelity came out and

1964
00:50:09,333 --> 00:50:10,291
started offering this to

1965
00:50:10,291 --> 00:50:11,625
institutional clients and

1966
00:50:11,625 --> 00:50:13,583
retail investors, that was

1967
00:50:13,583 --> 00:50:14,666
a big signal to the whole

1968
00:50:14,666 --> 00:50:16,166
world of finance that, hey,

1969
00:50:16,250 --> 00:50:17,750
Bitcoin is institutional

1970
00:50:17,750 --> 00:50:19,250
grade and this is something

1971
00:50:19,250 --> 00:50:20,333
that BlackRock is putting

1972
00:50:20,333 --> 00:50:22,041
their full weight behind.

1973
00:50:22,500 --> 00:50:23,500
So maybe let's start having

1974
00:50:23,500 --> 00:50:24,500
another look at that.

1975
00:50:24,500 --> 00:50:25,708
And that, that was also

1976
00:50:25,708 --> 00:50:26,500
what triggered us at a

1977
00:50:26,500 --> 00:50:28,708
p to seriously consider.

1978
00:50:29,666 --> 00:50:30,666
Investing in Bitcoin.

1979
00:50:30,666 --> 00:50:32,541
Like Stuart, the, the guy

1980
00:50:32,541 --> 00:50:33,458
that I mentioned earlier,

1981
00:50:33,458 --> 00:50:35,458
my, my boss, um, he, he

1982
00:50:35,458 --> 00:50:36,625
was pushing hard for that.

1983
00:50:36,750 --> 00:50:38,208
Um, and then we, yeah, we

1984
00:50:38,208 --> 00:50:39,833
started looking at investment

1985
00:50:39,833 --> 00:50:41,083
models that we could apply

1986
00:50:41,083 --> 00:50:43,375
to Bitcoin, um, and how it

1987
00:50:43,375 --> 00:50:44,875
would make sense within the a

1988
00:50:44,875 --> 00:50:47,750
MP um, superannuation space.

1989
00:50:47,750 --> 00:50:49,416
Um, because obviously there's

1990
00:50:49,416 --> 00:50:50,500
still a lot of risk involved.

1991
00:50:50,500 --> 00:50:50,791
There's still a

1992
00:50:50,791 --> 00:50:51,791
lot of volatility.

1993
00:50:52,125 --> 00:50:53,250
Um, and people were very

1994
00:50:53,250 --> 00:50:54,666
skeptical, so we had to

1995
00:50:55,041 --> 00:50:56,458
do it in the dynamic way

1996
00:50:56,458 --> 00:50:57,875
using futures and at a small

1997
00:50:57,875 --> 00:50:59,083
allocation that we did.

1998
00:50:59,500 --> 00:51:00,958
Um, but yeah, that, that,

1999
00:51:00,958 --> 00:51:01,625
that's how it started.

2000
00:51:01,625 --> 00:51:02,583
And since then I've been

2001
00:51:02,583 --> 00:51:03,833
running educational sessions

2002
00:51:03,833 --> 00:51:05,708
within a MP, like started

2003
00:51:05,708 --> 00:51:06,833
with the investment team.

2004
00:51:07,541 --> 00:51:08,833
Then the leadership team, then

2005
00:51:08,833 --> 00:51:10,416
executive team, and even gave

2006
00:51:10,416 --> 00:51:11,375
a presentation to the board of

2007
00:51:11,375 --> 00:51:13,750
directors in May of this year.

2008
00:51:13,750 --> 00:51:16,250
And everybody loves hearing

2009
00:51:16,250 --> 00:51:18,125
about the history of money.

2010
00:51:18,333 --> 00:51:19,625
Mm, stores of value

2011
00:51:19,625 --> 00:51:21,083
from first principles.

2012
00:51:21,208 --> 00:51:22,500
Like these are all things that

2013
00:51:22,875 --> 00:51:24,375
nobody thinks about anymore.

2014
00:51:24,375 --> 00:51:25,333
Like even people who are

2015
00:51:25,333 --> 00:51:26,916
on the board of directors

2016
00:51:27,000 --> 00:51:28,708
of a company like a and

2017
00:51:28,708 --> 00:51:31,166
p didn't, haven't really

2018
00:51:31,166 --> 00:51:32,166
stopped in their life and

2019
00:51:32,166 --> 00:51:33,000
actually asked themselves

2020
00:51:33,000 --> 00:51:34,458
what actually is money?

2021
00:51:34,750 --> 00:51:36,250
How did we get to, you know,

2022
00:51:36,250 --> 00:51:37,666
this form of money that

2023
00:51:37,666 --> 00:51:38,625
we're using now and what

2024
00:51:38,625 --> 00:51:39,875
was before that and why did

2025
00:51:39,875 --> 00:51:41,083
we use gold at some point?

2026
00:51:41,458 --> 00:51:42,291
But also what makes a

2027
00:51:42,291 --> 00:51:43,125
good store of value?

2028
00:51:43,125 --> 00:51:43,916
What properties should a

2029
00:51:43,916 --> 00:51:45,041
good store of value have?

2030
00:51:45,333 --> 00:51:46,250
And how do some of the

2031
00:51:46,250 --> 00:51:47,333
stores of value that I use.

2032
00:51:48,416 --> 00:51:49,791
Compared to Bitcoin on the

2033
00:51:49,791 --> 00:51:51,000
key properties of a store of

2034
00:51:51,000 --> 00:51:52,500
value, and like that, that's

2035
00:51:52,500 --> 00:51:54,000
that whole first principle

2036
00:51:54,041 --> 00:51:56,041
unpacking of things that we

2037
00:51:56,041 --> 00:51:57,291
take for granted in everyday

2038
00:51:57,291 --> 00:51:58,875
life is something that we've

2039
00:51:58,875 --> 00:52:00,708
just been, we just haven't

2040
00:52:00,708 --> 00:52:01,916
really been taught to do.

2041
00:52:01,916 --> 00:52:02,625
And it's something that

2042
00:52:02,625 --> 00:52:04,083
we don't learn because,

2043
00:52:04,500 --> 00:52:05,125
I don't know, it's just,

2044
00:52:05,125 --> 00:52:07,083
you know, currency is

2045
00:52:07,083 --> 00:52:08,000
just something that we use

2046
00:52:08,000 --> 00:52:09,291
every day to pay for stuff.

2047
00:52:09,291 --> 00:52:10,708
So why should I even think

2048
00:52:10,708 --> 00:52:11,666
about what money actually

2049
00:52:11,666 --> 00:52:12,750
is and where it comes from?

2050
00:52:13,208 --> 00:52:14,250
It's, yeah, it's,

2051
00:52:14,250 --> 00:52:14,958
it's hard to forget.

2052
00:52:15,791 --> 00:52:16,000
Yeah.

2053
00:52:16,000 --> 00:52:17,125
And, and it's fair, like, I

2054
00:52:17,125 --> 00:52:19,000
mean, I can understand why

2055
00:52:19,000 --> 00:52:20,083
obviously a lot of these

2056
00:52:20,083 --> 00:52:22,166
people went to university,

2057
00:52:22,250 --> 00:52:24,125
uh, long, long ago before

2058
00:52:24,125 --> 00:52:25,500
Bitcoin even came out.

2059
00:52:25,500 --> 00:52:27,125
So we didn't have

2060
00:52:27,208 --> 00:52:28,125
a different system.

2061
00:52:28,125 --> 00:52:29,208
We didn't have anything

2062
00:52:29,208 --> 00:52:30,458
to compare it to.

2063
00:52:30,458 --> 00:52:32,791
And now in order to understand

2064
00:52:32,791 --> 00:52:34,041
this new phenomenon, we

2065
00:52:34,041 --> 00:52:35,583
really have to zoom out

2066
00:52:36,000 --> 00:52:37,583
very, very, very far

2067
00:52:37,583 --> 00:52:38,875
historically to try and

2068
00:52:38,875 --> 00:52:41,250
make sense, sense of things.

2069
00:52:41,291 --> 00:52:42,958
Um, I, I just, what I

2070
00:52:42,958 --> 00:52:44,208
love about Bitcoin, just

2071
00:52:44,250 --> 00:52:45,750
the, the layers that

2072
00:52:45,750 --> 00:52:46,958
it requires to just.

2073
00:52:47,666 --> 00:52:48,833
Understand it, you know,

2074
00:52:48,833 --> 00:52:49,916
first you learn about

2075
00:52:49,916 --> 00:52:51,291
Austrian Econ a little bit.

2076
00:52:51,291 --> 00:52:52,375
Then you learn about hard

2077
00:52:52,375 --> 00:52:53,458
money or sound money.

2078
00:52:53,458 --> 00:52:54,541
Then you learn about

2079
00:52:54,541 --> 00:52:55,875
the monetary history.

2080
00:52:55,875 --> 00:52:56,666
Then you learn about

2081
00:52:56,666 --> 00:52:58,125
cryptography, and the more

2082
00:52:58,125 --> 00:52:59,750
you kind of like layer your

2083
00:52:59,750 --> 00:53:01,041
knowledge, the more you just

2084
00:53:01,041 --> 00:53:02,666
start to be in complete all.

2085
00:53:02,666 --> 00:53:04,166
Because like you said

2086
00:53:04,166 --> 00:53:05,458
earlier on, all of those

2087
00:53:05,458 --> 00:53:06,666
like attributes that.

2088
00:53:07,583 --> 00:53:08,583
Good money, good.

2089
00:53:08,583 --> 00:53:09,750
Like the visibility,

2090
00:53:09,750 --> 00:53:11,958
fungibility, portability,

2091
00:53:12,000 --> 00:53:12,791
da dah, dah, dah, dah.

2092
00:53:13,583 --> 00:53:15,000
Bitcoin is now introducing

2093
00:53:15,000 --> 00:53:16,791
new attributes to, to that.

2094
00:53:16,791 --> 00:53:18,166
So like the, it's expanding

2095
00:53:18,166 --> 00:53:19,500
the list and like you said,

2096
00:53:19,875 --> 00:53:20,916
things like censorship

2097
00:53:20,916 --> 00:53:22,583
resistance, which might

2098
00:53:22,583 --> 00:53:25,041
not be necessary in stable

2099
00:53:25,041 --> 00:53:27,500
economies or, or, or, you

2100
00:53:27,500 --> 00:53:28,500
know, countries that have

2101
00:53:28,500 --> 00:53:30,666
good governments, but many

2102
00:53:30,666 --> 00:53:32,083
countries in the, in the world

2103
00:53:32,083 --> 00:53:33,458
don't have that experience.

2104
00:53:33,458 --> 00:53:35,125
So having sensory

2105
00:53:35,416 --> 00:53:36,500
resistance is really,

2106
00:53:36,500 --> 00:53:37,875
really important in money.

2107
00:53:38,083 --> 00:53:39,583
Like you wouldn't wanna be

2108
00:53:39,583 --> 00:53:40,416
in a relationship that's

2109
00:53:40,416 --> 00:53:41,791
financially abusive.

2110
00:53:42,250 --> 00:53:43,000
You also don't wanna be

2111
00:53:43,000 --> 00:53:43,708
in a relationship with

2112
00:53:43,708 --> 00:53:44,458
the government that is

2113
00:53:44,458 --> 00:53:45,791
financially abusive.

2114
00:53:46,166 --> 00:53:47,250
I think that's fair.

2115
00:53:47,333 --> 00:53:47,625
Right?

2116
00:53:47,625 --> 00:53:49,000
That's not controversial

2117
00:53:49,000 --> 00:53:49,750
thing to say.

2118
00:53:50,291 --> 00:53:53,333
Um, va value density, it's,

2119
00:53:53,333 --> 00:53:54,750
I guess it's related to

2120
00:53:55,000 --> 00:53:56,375
bitcoin's di visibility in a

2121
00:53:56,375 --> 00:53:58,250
way where another beautiful

2122
00:53:58,250 --> 00:53:59,083
thing about Bitcoin is

2123
00:53:59,083 --> 00:54:00,666
that you can divide one

2124
00:54:00,666 --> 00:54:01,750
Bitcoin into a hundred

2125
00:54:01,750 --> 00:54:03,125
million Satoshis, which are

2126
00:54:03,125 --> 00:54:05,083
the subunits of bitcoin.

2127
00:54:05,666 --> 00:54:05,916
May.

2128
00:54:05,916 --> 00:54:07,708
And the thing is technically

2129
00:54:07,708 --> 00:54:08,375
with like the lightning

2130
00:54:08,375 --> 00:54:09,791
network, you can even divide

2131
00:54:09,791 --> 00:54:11,625
it one Satoshi even further.

2132
00:54:11,625 --> 00:54:13,625
So Bitcoin in theory has

2133
00:54:13,625 --> 00:54:15,208
infinite DI visibility, which

2134
00:54:15,208 --> 00:54:17,625
is perfect because if Bitcoin

2135
00:54:17,625 --> 00:54:19,208
becomes more valuable, at

2136
00:54:19,208 --> 00:54:20,375
some point we could run into

2137
00:54:20,375 --> 00:54:21,791
an issue where maybe if one

2138
00:54:21,791 --> 00:54:23,458
Satoshi becomes equal to 1

2139
00:54:23,458 --> 00:54:25,083
cent in Australian dollar

2140
00:54:25,083 --> 00:54:26,916
terms, it still works.

2141
00:54:26,916 --> 00:54:27,750
But if it becomes more

2142
00:54:27,750 --> 00:54:28,833
valuable than that, then we

2143
00:54:28,833 --> 00:54:30,583
gotta start dividing Satoshis.

2144
00:54:30,875 --> 00:54:31,541
But that's the beautiful

2145
00:54:31,541 --> 00:54:32,166
thing with Bitcoin.

2146
00:54:32,166 --> 00:54:33,583
You can infinitely divide it.

2147
00:54:33,583 --> 00:54:34,458
And this is also where

2148
00:54:34,458 --> 00:54:37,041
one common question or

2149
00:54:37,041 --> 00:54:38,625
criticism of Bitcoin comes

2150
00:54:38,625 --> 00:54:39,708
in, and I've heard this from

2151
00:54:39,708 --> 00:54:41,333
really, really smart people.

2152
00:54:41,666 --> 00:54:42,875
They then say, oh, but

2153
00:54:42,958 --> 00:54:44,833
if infinitely divisible,

2154
00:54:44,833 --> 00:54:45,833
how can it be scarce?

2155
00:54:47,208 --> 00:54:49,750
And initially like when like

2156
00:54:49,750 --> 00:54:51,333
on first thought, it's like

2157
00:54:51,708 --> 00:54:53,000
I kind of understand where

2158
00:54:53,000 --> 00:54:54,375
they're coming from because.

2159
00:54:54,958 --> 00:54:56,041
They think scarcity just

2160
00:54:56,041 --> 00:54:57,333
means that there's a limited

2161
00:54:57,625 --> 00:54:59,458
number of units of it, but

2162
00:54:59,458 --> 00:55:01,125
what matters isn't the, the

2163
00:55:01,125 --> 00:55:02,583
number of subunits, but the

2164
00:55:02,583 --> 00:55:04,208
number of the, like the whole

2165
00:55:04,208 --> 00:55:06,166
basically, um, which again,

2166
00:55:06,208 --> 00:55:07,708
like come coming back to,

2167
00:55:07,958 --> 00:55:08,791
I guess you could use the

2168
00:55:08,791 --> 00:55:10,041
clock example, but a lot,

2169
00:55:10,041 --> 00:55:11,000
an example that a lot of

2170
00:55:11,000 --> 00:55:12,500
people here use is the pizza

2171
00:55:12,500 --> 00:55:13,958
example where if you have one

2172
00:55:13,958 --> 00:55:16,583
pizza and right now it's, uh,

2173
00:55:16,666 --> 00:55:18,208
split up into four pieces.

2174
00:55:18,750 --> 00:55:20,458
If you cut every piece

2175
00:55:20,458 --> 00:55:21,833
in half again, then

2176
00:55:21,833 --> 00:55:22,958
you have eight pieces.

2177
00:55:23,208 --> 00:55:24,750
But you didn't just create

2178
00:55:24,750 --> 00:55:26,250
more pizza, uh, you still,

2179
00:55:26,583 --> 00:55:27,416
you created more slices.

2180
00:55:27,458 --> 00:55:27,833
Exactly.

2181
00:55:27,833 --> 00:55:28,666
You still have one pizza.

2182
00:55:28,666 --> 00:55:29,541
And that's the same with whi.

2183
00:55:29,541 --> 00:55:30,625
Just because you can divide

2184
00:55:30,625 --> 00:55:31,791
it into more subunits

2185
00:55:32,041 --> 00:55:33,166
doesn't mean you create more.

2186
00:55:33,166 --> 00:55:34,250
It's uh, yeah, that if

2187
00:55:34,250 --> 00:55:34,916
you have to do that,

2188
00:55:34,916 --> 00:55:36,291
you actually make what

2189
00:55:36,291 --> 00:55:37,708
is there more valuable?

2190
00:55:37,708 --> 00:55:38,666
Because, you know, if,

2191
00:55:38,708 --> 00:55:39,708
if you have to subdivide

2192
00:55:39,708 --> 00:55:40,375
it, it means that the

2193
00:55:40,375 --> 00:55:41,625
hole went up in value.

2194
00:55:42,375 --> 00:55:43,583
Um, so Bitcoin is gas.

2195
00:55:43,583 --> 00:55:45,125
Bitcoin is the most scarce

2196
00:55:45,458 --> 00:55:46,958
verifiably scars thing

2197
00:55:46,958 --> 00:55:48,333
that we've, we've ever seen

2198
00:55:48,333 --> 00:55:49,541
that can be used as money.

2199
00:55:50,000 --> 00:55:52,416
Um, which yeah, is is truly

2200
00:55:52,416 --> 00:55:53,250
mind blowing when you think

2201
00:55:53,250 --> 00:55:54,208
about it as well, because

2202
00:55:54,500 --> 00:55:55,541
scarcity is the thing

2203
00:55:55,541 --> 00:55:56,750
that we arguably value

2204
00:55:56,750 --> 00:55:59,208
the most in money, and

2205
00:55:59,708 --> 00:56:01,083
we've just perfected that.

2206
00:56:01,250 --> 00:56:02,583
Like Satoshi literally

2207
00:56:02,583 --> 00:56:03,583
perfected the thing

2208
00:56:03,583 --> 00:56:04,458
that is the most

2209
00:56:04,458 --> 00:56:05,708
important about money.

2210
00:56:06,291 --> 00:56:08,041
So we might now have

2211
00:56:08,041 --> 00:56:09,541
perfect money and real

2212
00:56:09,541 --> 00:56:10,625
life while it happened.

2213
00:56:10,625 --> 00:56:11,833
How incredible is that?

2214
00:56:12,458 --> 00:56:12,750
Yeah.

2215
00:56:13,208 --> 00:56:14,375
And, and the other story

2216
00:56:14,375 --> 00:56:15,666
that I like to tell as well

2217
00:56:15,666 --> 00:56:16,875
is about the Cipher Punk

2218
00:56:16,875 --> 00:56:18,166
movement and how we're all

2219
00:56:18,166 --> 00:56:19,875
today reaping the benefits

2220
00:56:19,958 --> 00:56:21,166
of the, that movement,

2221
00:56:21,166 --> 00:56:22,000
you know, through having.

2222
00:56:22,541 --> 00:56:23,875
The ability to send

2223
00:56:23,958 --> 00:56:25,500
emails privately to one

2224
00:56:25,500 --> 00:56:26,541
another through work.

2225
00:56:26,541 --> 00:56:28,666
We can keep corporate secrets,

2226
00:56:28,666 --> 00:56:29,916
you know, corporate, we

2227
00:56:29,916 --> 00:56:31,875
can exchange love letters

2228
00:56:31,875 --> 00:56:33,041
without the whole world

2229
00:56:33,041 --> 00:56:34,875
knowing, you know, and,

2230
00:56:34,875 --> 00:56:36,375
and that is all thanks to

2231
00:56:36,416 --> 00:56:37,791
the cipher bunks and the

2232
00:56:37,833 --> 00:56:39,416
arguably the most important

2233
00:56:39,416 --> 00:56:41,250
invention is Bitcoin.

2234
00:56:41,500 --> 00:56:45,666
So, yeah, I do, I do love, um,

2235
00:56:45,708 --> 00:56:47,125
telling that story as well.

2236
00:56:47,416 --> 00:56:49,625
Um, but going back to what

2237
00:56:49,625 --> 00:56:50,833
we were talking about just

2238
00:56:50,833 --> 00:56:53,625
now, um, in terms of what

2239
00:56:53,708 --> 00:56:56,041
do, do you have any, I always

2240
00:56:56,041 --> 00:56:57,666
hesitate to ask like, uh,

2241
00:56:57,666 --> 00:56:59,458
speculative questions, but

2242
00:56:59,500 --> 00:57:02,458
do you see Bitcoin becoming

2243
00:57:02,500 --> 00:57:03,833
a medium of exchange in

2244
00:57:03,833 --> 00:57:05,916
the next 10 to 20 years?

2245
00:57:06,458 --> 00:57:08,291
Like, is that a possibility?

2246
00:57:10,083 --> 00:57:11,541
10 to 20 years.

2247
00:57:11,708 --> 00:57:12,875
I mean, it's a possibility.

2248
00:57:12,916 --> 00:57:13,708
You don't know.

2249
00:57:13,875 --> 00:57:15,666
Um, I, I don't think it

2250
00:57:15,666 --> 00:57:18,500
will, to be honest when I

2251
00:57:18,500 --> 00:57:19,583
think about it sometimes,

2252
00:57:19,583 --> 00:57:20,541
I'm not sure whether it will

2253
00:57:20,541 --> 00:57:22,000
even happen in my lifetime.

2254
00:57:22,083 --> 00:57:23,750
Um, because these things can

2255
00:57:23,750 --> 00:57:25,291
take a really long time and

2256
00:57:25,875 --> 00:57:28,500
we see how slow adoption,

2257
00:57:28,583 --> 00:57:30,000
like while it is picking

2258
00:57:30,000 --> 00:57:31,541
up a lot, when you zoom

2259
00:57:31,541 --> 00:57:33,416
out and think about, okay,

2260
00:57:33,541 --> 00:57:34,875
institutions are now coming

2261
00:57:34,875 --> 00:57:35,916
into the Bitcoin space.

2262
00:57:36,041 --> 00:57:40,041
A MP has like now a 0.1%

2263
00:57:40,041 --> 00:57:42,666
allocation roughly to Bitcoin.

2264
00:57:42,958 --> 00:57:44,041
But we're the only

2265
00:57:44,125 --> 00:57:45,416
super fund in Australia.

2266
00:57:45,750 --> 00:57:46,125
We manage.

2267
00:57:46,625 --> 00:57:47,875
I think it's somewhere

2268
00:57:47,875 --> 00:57:49,333
between 60 and 70 billion

2269
00:57:49,333 --> 00:57:49,916
Australian dollars.

2270
00:57:49,916 --> 00:57:50,541
But then there's like

2271
00:57:50,541 --> 00:57:51,958
Australian super that

2272
00:57:52,208 --> 00:57:53,666
is around 400 billion.

2273
00:57:53,666 --> 00:57:54,625
And there's other really

2274
00:57:54,625 --> 00:57:55,791
big super funds, you know,

2275
00:57:55,791 --> 00:57:57,083
that, that collectively

2276
00:57:57,083 --> 00:57:58,666
manage trillions of

2277
00:57:58,708 --> 00:57:59,666
Australian dollars.

2278
00:58:00,083 --> 00:58:01,250
Um, and within that, we're

2279
00:58:01,250 --> 00:58:02,500
the only one with a tiny

2280
00:58:02,500 --> 00:58:03,291
allocation to Bitcoin.

2281
00:58:03,625 --> 00:58:05,875
So zooming out and looking

2282
00:58:05,875 --> 00:58:07,250
just where all of the big

2283
00:58:07,250 --> 00:58:08,750
money sits and how much of

2284
00:58:08,750 --> 00:58:09,791
that money is invested in

2285
00:58:09,916 --> 00:58:12,000
Bitcoin, we are so, so early.

2286
00:58:12,208 --> 00:58:13,166
But another way to think

2287
00:58:13,166 --> 00:58:15,208
about that is if, if anybody

2288
00:58:15,208 --> 00:58:16,708
listening here thinks about

2289
00:58:16,750 --> 00:58:18,125
their own family, their

2290
00:58:18,125 --> 00:58:19,500
relatives, and their friends,

2291
00:58:20,333 --> 00:58:21,916
and how many people have

2292
00:58:21,916 --> 00:58:23,875
actually invested in Bitcoin,

2293
00:58:24,208 --> 00:58:25,500
substantial amounts, but

2294
00:58:25,500 --> 00:58:27,166
also are able to articulate

2295
00:58:27,166 --> 00:58:28,583
what Bitcoin actually is.

2296
00:58:28,583 --> 00:58:29,000
'cause that's the

2297
00:58:29,000 --> 00:58:29,833
more important thing.

2298
00:58:29,833 --> 00:58:30,875
Like a lot of people buy

2299
00:58:30,875 --> 00:58:32,666
Bitcoin out of fomo, but

2300
00:58:32,666 --> 00:58:33,625
how many of those people

2301
00:58:33,625 --> 00:58:34,708
actually understand Bitcoin?

2302
00:58:34,750 --> 00:58:36,166
It's, you know, maybe

2303
00:58:36,166 --> 00:58:37,291
one out of a hundred,

2304
00:58:37,375 --> 00:58:38,458
probably less than that.

2305
00:58:38,458 --> 00:58:39,708
Maybe one out of a thousand

2306
00:58:39,708 --> 00:58:40,583
if we're being honest.

2307
00:58:41,083 --> 00:58:42,166
Um, so we're still super

2308
00:58:42,166 --> 00:58:42,791
early with Bitcoin,

2309
00:58:43,250 --> 00:58:45,083
but unless people.

2310
00:58:45,583 --> 00:58:47,541
All adopted, or almost

2311
00:58:47,541 --> 00:58:48,708
everybody adopted as a store

2312
00:58:48,708 --> 00:58:50,333
of value, it won't be able

2313
00:58:50,333 --> 00:58:51,875
to move to becoming a medium

2314
00:58:51,875 --> 00:58:53,291
of exchange, at least in

2315
00:58:53,500 --> 00:58:54,666
developed countries with

2316
00:58:54,708 --> 00:58:56,166
somewhat stable currencies

2317
00:58:56,916 --> 00:58:57,833
in developing countries.

2318
00:58:57,833 --> 00:58:58,375
That might happen

2319
00:58:58,375 --> 00:58:59,041
a lot faster.

2320
00:58:59,041 --> 00:58:59,916
Their adoption might

2321
00:58:59,916 --> 00:59:00,833
happen a lot faster.

2322
00:59:01,083 --> 00:59:02,166
But then again, they also

2323
00:59:02,166 --> 00:59:04,250
have stable coins like USDT,

2324
00:59:04,250 --> 00:59:05,375
which they probably prefer

2325
00:59:05,375 --> 00:59:06,250
because it doesn't have the

2326
00:59:06,250 --> 00:59:08,458
volatility and they, they're

2327
00:59:08,458 --> 00:59:09,583
not trying to store well

2328
00:59:09,583 --> 00:59:10,625
for a long period of time.

2329
00:59:10,625 --> 00:59:11,833
They probably need a medium

2330
00:59:11,833 --> 00:59:13,125
term store of value and

2331
00:59:13,125 --> 00:59:13,791
something they can use

2332
00:59:13,791 --> 00:59:14,875
as a medium exchange.

2333
00:59:15,291 --> 00:59:16,541
Um, so just thinking about

2334
00:59:16,541 --> 00:59:17,791
it from that perspective,

2335
00:59:18,250 --> 00:59:19,666
um, I think it'll take a

2336
00:59:19,666 --> 00:59:21,541
long time until can actually

2337
00:59:21,541 --> 00:59:22,666
is a medium exchange.

2338
00:59:22,666 --> 00:59:24,333
And especially if the US is

2339
00:59:24,333 --> 00:59:25,583
smart, which it looks like

2340
00:59:25,625 --> 00:59:26,708
they currently are with

2341
00:59:26,708 --> 00:59:27,958
adopting and pushing the

2342
00:59:27,958 --> 00:59:30,000
adoption of stable coins, they

2343
00:59:30,000 --> 00:59:31,541
might be able to keep the US

2344
00:59:31,541 --> 00:59:33,583
dollar alive for a lot longer

2345
00:59:33,583 --> 00:59:34,750
than it otherwise would.

2346
00:59:35,166 --> 00:59:36,208
Um, so I think there.

2347
00:59:36,916 --> 00:59:37,583
They're understanding

2348
00:59:37,583 --> 00:59:38,333
this whole field

2349
00:59:38,333 --> 00:59:39,083
really, really well.

2350
00:59:39,083 --> 00:59:40,375
And I'm pretty amazed by

2351
00:59:40,375 --> 00:59:41,666
the Trump administration and

2352
00:59:41,666 --> 00:59:43,500
how, how much they're able

2353
00:59:43,500 --> 00:59:44,791
to embrace this and how much

2354
00:59:44,791 --> 00:59:46,041
the tone has shifted from the

2355
00:59:46,041 --> 00:59:47,208
last administration to this

2356
00:59:47,208 --> 00:59:48,833
one in terms of crypto in

2357
00:59:48,833 --> 00:59:50,208
general, but also Bitcoin and

2358
00:59:50,208 --> 00:59:52,041
like, they're all politicians.

2359
00:59:52,041 --> 00:59:53,750
So like we, we never know

2360
00:59:53,791 --> 00:59:55,208
what the true motivation

2361
00:59:55,208 --> 00:59:56,708
behind their, the actions

2362
00:59:56,708 --> 00:59:58,166
are, but it's, it sounds

2363
00:59:58,166 --> 00:59:59,083
like some of those people,

2364
00:59:59,083 --> 00:59:59,958
like properly get it.

2365
00:59:59,958 --> 01:00:01,583
Like if you listen to like RFK

2366
01:00:01,583 --> 01:00:04,166
Junior or the vec, um, even

2367
01:00:04,166 --> 01:00:06,208
JD Vance, um, it, it seems

2368
01:00:06,208 --> 01:00:07,458
like they, they do understand

2369
01:00:07,458 --> 01:00:08,625
the value behind Bitcoin

2370
01:00:09,291 --> 01:00:10,750
and why it's inevitable even

2371
01:00:10,750 --> 01:00:11,875
for a country like the us.

2372
01:00:12,208 --> 01:00:13,500
But then again, um, I think

2373
01:00:13,500 --> 01:00:14,208
they're able to stretch

2374
01:00:14,208 --> 01:00:16,250
out, um, the, the US dollar

2375
01:00:16,291 --> 01:00:17,625
staying alive for a lot longer

2376
01:00:17,625 --> 01:00:19,083
than it otherwise would by

2377
01:00:19,083 --> 01:00:20,541
adopting and pushing the

2378
01:00:20,541 --> 01:00:21,833
adoption of stable coins.

2379
01:00:22,333 --> 01:00:23,750
Um, so we're, I, I

2380
01:00:23,750 --> 01:00:24,458
think we're still.

2381
01:00:24,875 --> 01:00:26,291
Long time away from that.

2382
01:00:26,291 --> 01:00:27,541
But that's okay.

2383
01:00:27,666 --> 01:00:29,166
That's, that's how money

2384
01:00:29,541 --> 01:00:30,833
monetizes and people have to

2385
01:00:30,833 --> 01:00:31,791
figure out that Bitcoin is

2386
01:00:31,791 --> 01:00:33,500
the best store value and the

2387
01:00:33,500 --> 01:00:35,291
more money they print, the,

2388
01:00:35,291 --> 01:00:36,375
the faster it will happen.

2389
01:00:36,375 --> 01:00:38,083
And the more tyrannical

2390
01:00:38,083 --> 01:00:38,833
governments all over

2391
01:00:38,833 --> 01:00:39,458
the world become, the

2392
01:00:39,458 --> 01:00:40,333
faster it will happen.

2393
01:00:40,333 --> 01:00:42,000
It's like the more

2394
01:00:42,000 --> 01:00:43,083
governments do what they

2395
01:00:43,083 --> 01:00:44,833
eventually always do, the

2396
01:00:44,833 --> 01:00:46,166
faster people adopt Bitcoin.

2397
01:00:46,166 --> 01:00:47,750
So the longer they behave,

2398
01:00:48,250 --> 01:00:49,208
the slower it will be.

2399
01:00:49,291 --> 01:00:49,666
We'll see.

2400
01:00:51,583 --> 01:00:52,000
Yeah.

2401
01:00:52,541 --> 01:00:52,875
Yeah.

2402
01:00:53,208 --> 01:00:55,083
Um, I do also wanna ask

2403
01:00:55,083 --> 01:00:56,541
you, 'cause we spoke just

2404
01:00:56,541 --> 01:00:58,208
before about some of the

2405
01:00:58,375 --> 01:00:59,916
common questions that people

2406
01:00:59,916 --> 01:01:01,458
have about Bitcoin, you

2407
01:01:01,458 --> 01:01:03,250
know, that raise eyebrows.

2408
01:01:03,250 --> 01:01:04,625
I've never heard the one

2409
01:01:04,625 --> 01:01:07,041
about, you know, divisibility

2410
01:01:07,875 --> 01:01:09,375
like have being an issue

2411
01:01:09,375 --> 01:01:10,416
with the supply cap.

2412
01:01:10,416 --> 01:01:11,083
That was, that was

2413
01:01:11,083 --> 01:01:11,916
an interesting one.

2414
01:01:12,250 --> 01:01:13,625
Um, but the most common

2415
01:01:13,625 --> 01:01:15,083
one that I hear that,

2416
01:01:15,125 --> 01:01:19,291
um, I think is, is, um.

2417
01:01:19,708 --> 01:01:22,125
More reasonable question

2418
01:01:22,125 --> 01:01:24,333
to ask compared to some

2419
01:01:24,333 --> 01:01:25,958
of the ones that are just

2420
01:01:26,041 --> 01:01:27,625
like, it's a Ponzi scheme.

2421
01:01:27,625 --> 01:01:28,416
I'm like, that has

2422
01:01:28,416 --> 01:01:29,916
been debunked so much.

2423
01:01:29,916 --> 01:01:30,791
I don't even wanna, I

2424
01:01:30,791 --> 01:01:32,375
don't even wanna, you know,

2425
01:01:32,375 --> 01:01:33,625
entertain that anymore.

2426
01:01:33,625 --> 01:01:34,666
Like, we're done with that.

2427
01:01:34,666 --> 01:01:35,625
That should have died,

2428
01:01:35,833 --> 01:01:36,875
you know, years ago.

2429
01:01:37,416 --> 01:01:38,958
The one that I think

2430
01:01:38,958 --> 01:01:41,083
deserves an explanation is

2431
01:01:41,166 --> 01:01:42,541
the intrinsic value one.

2432
01:01:42,541 --> 01:01:43,166
So

2433
01:01:45,250 --> 01:01:46,333
yes, let's go.

2434
01:01:47,083 --> 01:01:48,458
And, no, you're right.

2435
01:01:48,458 --> 01:01:50,625
And, and this one is a

2436
01:01:50,625 --> 01:01:51,833
really tricky one, and I

2437
01:01:51,833 --> 01:01:53,333
think it's also the one

2438
01:01:53,333 --> 01:01:55,208
that holds back people in

2439
01:01:55,208 --> 01:01:56,916
traditional finance the most.

2440
01:01:56,916 --> 01:01:59,125
And it's one that I get at

2441
01:01:59,125 --> 01:02:00,458
work a lot, but not, not

2442
01:02:00,458 --> 01:02:02,666
just at work, but even, um,

2443
01:02:03,333 --> 01:02:04,375
people who work in other

2444
01:02:04,375 --> 01:02:05,291
industries, like friends that

2445
01:02:05,291 --> 01:02:06,625
I have from uni, for example.

2446
01:02:07,000 --> 01:02:08,291
The intrinsic value part

2447
01:02:08,291 --> 01:02:09,291
is something that a lot of

2448
01:02:09,291 --> 01:02:10,166
people get caught up on.

2449
01:02:10,166 --> 01:02:11,083
And I actually used to

2450
01:02:11,083 --> 01:02:11,916
get caught up on that a

2451
01:02:11,916 --> 01:02:13,416
little bit as well, um,

2452
01:02:13,416 --> 01:02:15,458
because it's, it's hard to

2453
01:02:15,458 --> 01:02:17,583
understand because bitcoin.

2454
01:02:19,041 --> 01:02:20,083
And the, the thinking

2455
01:02:20,083 --> 01:02:21,333
around intrinsic value

2456
01:02:21,833 --> 01:02:24,208
really challenges how we

2457
01:02:24,208 --> 01:02:25,916
value all other things

2458
01:02:25,916 --> 01:02:27,333
basically, apart from gold.

2459
01:02:27,791 --> 01:02:30,083
Um, so what we usually do

2460
01:02:30,083 --> 01:02:32,208
in finance is that in order

2461
01:02:32,208 --> 01:02:36,000
to value assets, um, we look

2462
01:02:36,000 --> 01:02:37,625
to some kind of cash flow,

2463
01:02:38,000 --> 01:02:39,416
whether that's bonds that

2464
01:02:39,416 --> 01:02:42,041
pay coupons, um, equities

2465
01:02:42,041 --> 01:02:43,916
or shares, pay dividends,

2466
01:02:43,916 --> 01:02:44,916
or you know, at least you

2467
01:02:44,916 --> 01:02:46,166
have a claim on the future

2468
01:02:46,166 --> 01:02:47,458
cash flows of a company.

2469
01:02:47,458 --> 01:02:48,208
So you can do like

2470
01:02:48,208 --> 01:02:49,708
discounted cash flow models

2471
01:02:50,000 --> 01:02:50,791
and things like that.

2472
01:02:51,083 --> 01:02:52,083
With real estate, you

2473
01:02:52,083 --> 01:02:53,208
have rental income.

2474
01:02:53,916 --> 01:02:55,750
So with a lot of financial

2475
01:02:55,750 --> 01:02:57,583
assets, we usually look at

2476
01:02:57,833 --> 01:02:59,333
cashflow and then build some

2477
01:02:59,333 --> 01:03:01,083
kind of cashflow valuation

2478
01:03:01,083 --> 01:03:02,458
model around that to try to

2479
01:03:02,458 --> 01:03:04,541
figure out what the, you know,

2480
01:03:04,541 --> 01:03:06,250
what the true value of an

2481
01:03:06,250 --> 01:03:07,416
asset is and what it should be

2482
01:03:07,416 --> 01:03:08,416
and how it should be valued.

2483
01:03:08,416 --> 01:03:09,708
And then obviously with

2484
01:03:09,708 --> 01:03:11,458
shares, um, you, you've

2485
01:03:11,458 --> 01:03:12,666
got growth expectations

2486
01:03:12,666 --> 01:03:13,583
for like tech companies.

2487
01:03:13,583 --> 01:03:15,000
So they, they are valued

2488
01:03:15,000 --> 01:03:16,875
far beyond their cash flows,

2489
01:03:16,916 --> 01:03:18,541
um, be because of that.

2490
01:03:18,791 --> 01:03:20,375
But it, it usually anchors

2491
01:03:20,375 --> 01:03:21,875
around some kind of cash flow.

2492
01:03:22,666 --> 01:03:24,000
And then people look

2493
01:03:24,000 --> 01:03:24,875
at Bitcoin and they

2494
01:03:24,875 --> 01:03:26,291
say, well, Bitcoin's

2495
01:03:26,291 --> 01:03:27,625
an unproductive asset.

2496
01:03:27,625 --> 01:03:28,000
You know, it

2497
01:03:28,000 --> 01:03:29,375
doesn't do anything.

2498
01:03:29,375 --> 01:03:30,333
It's, it's just,

2499
01:03:30,833 --> 01:03:31,583
it's just there.

2500
01:03:31,583 --> 01:03:32,791
Like what the hell is the

2501
01:03:32,791 --> 01:03:34,375
intrinsic value of Bitcoin?

2502
01:03:34,750 --> 01:03:37,333
But what I, I usually say

2503
01:03:37,333 --> 01:03:38,125
to people, and I said this

2504
01:03:38,125 --> 01:03:39,208
to Shane on the podcast

2505
01:03:39,208 --> 01:03:41,333
as well, is that trying to

2506
01:03:41,625 --> 01:03:43,375
value Bitcoin based on cash

2507
01:03:43,375 --> 01:03:44,708
flows or through this typical

2508
01:03:44,708 --> 01:03:45,833
lens that we use is trying

2509
01:03:45,833 --> 01:03:47,833
to value a painting, um,

2510
01:03:47,875 --> 01:03:49,125
based on a dividend yield.

2511
01:03:49,125 --> 01:03:50,625
Like it makes no sense,

2512
01:03:50,625 --> 01:03:51,250
it's the completely

2513
01:03:51,250 --> 01:03:52,500
wrong tool for the job.

2514
01:03:53,458 --> 01:03:55,500
Um, but there, there is

2515
01:03:55,500 --> 01:03:56,750
this misconception that you

2516
01:03:56,750 --> 01:03:57,916
need some kind of anchor

2517
01:03:57,916 --> 01:03:59,041
value to value something.

2518
01:03:59,041 --> 01:04:00,208
And even with gold,

2519
01:04:00,208 --> 01:04:02,166
because gold is also an

2520
01:04:02,166 --> 01:04:03,791
unproductive asset, it doesn't

2521
01:04:03,791 --> 01:04:05,125
generate any cash flows.

2522
01:04:05,125 --> 01:04:06,333
So economists and

2523
01:04:06,333 --> 01:04:07,500
traditional finance people

2524
01:04:07,750 --> 01:04:08,958
struggle with gold as well.

2525
01:04:08,958 --> 01:04:09,958
And the way that they

2526
01:04:10,208 --> 01:04:11,625
mentally overcome that

2527
01:04:11,625 --> 01:04:12,583
with gold is they say,

2528
01:04:12,583 --> 01:04:14,416
ah, but at least gold has

2529
01:04:14,416 --> 01:04:16,166
some industrial demand in

2530
01:04:16,166 --> 01:04:18,375
electronics, in dentistry.

2531
01:04:19,166 --> 01:04:20,083
And people use it

2532
01:04:20,083 --> 01:04:21,375
for jewelry as well.

2533
01:04:21,666 --> 01:04:22,958
But then when you really

2534
01:04:22,958 --> 01:04:24,416
think about that, I think

2535
01:04:24,416 --> 01:04:25,875
that's just a convenient

2536
01:04:25,875 --> 01:04:27,250
argument that, you know,

2537
01:04:27,250 --> 01:04:28,958
helps them make sense

2538
01:04:28,958 --> 01:04:30,375
of why gold has value.

2539
01:04:30,666 --> 01:04:32,541
But first of all, the

2540
01:04:32,541 --> 01:04:33,916
industrial demand for gold

2541
01:04:33,958 --> 01:04:35,458
maybe accounts for 10 to

2542
01:04:35,458 --> 01:04:37,458
15% of the value of gold.

2543
01:04:38,000 --> 01:04:39,666
85 to 90% is just

2544
01:04:39,708 --> 01:04:40,916
pure monetary premium.

2545
01:04:40,916 --> 01:04:42,666
So if all of the industrial

2546
01:04:42,666 --> 01:04:43,833
demand for gold went away

2547
01:04:43,833 --> 01:04:45,458
tomorrow, gold would arguably

2548
01:04:45,458 --> 01:04:46,833
retain most of its value.

2549
01:04:47,500 --> 01:04:48,666
Then the second thing is

2550
01:04:49,041 --> 01:04:50,916
the industrial demand, like

2551
01:04:51,250 --> 01:04:52,833
electronics and dentistry

2552
01:04:52,833 --> 01:04:55,416
for gold only came around,

2553
01:04:55,541 --> 01:04:56,458
I don't know, like a

2554
01:04:56,458 --> 01:04:58,000
hundred years ago, maybe

2555
01:04:58,000 --> 01:04:58,666
a bit longer than that.

2556
01:04:58,666 --> 01:05:00,166
Like electronics and dentistry

2557
01:05:00,166 --> 01:05:01,541
are fairly recent phenomenons.

2558
01:05:01,833 --> 01:05:02,916
But gold was highly

2559
01:05:02,916 --> 01:05:04,125
valued for thousands

2560
01:05:04,125 --> 01:05:05,166
of years before then.

2561
01:05:05,166 --> 01:05:06,750
So when you really think

2562
01:05:06,750 --> 01:05:07,541
about, you know, the

2563
01:05:07,541 --> 01:05:08,708
history of money again,

2564
01:05:08,791 --> 01:05:10,000
like that whole argument

2565
01:05:10,291 --> 01:05:11,375
basically goes away.

2566
01:05:11,375 --> 01:05:13,041
So it's not the industrial

2567
01:05:13,041 --> 01:05:14,375
demand that gives gold value,

2568
01:05:15,041 --> 01:05:16,041
but that's where people then

2569
01:05:16,041 --> 01:05:17,083
really start to struggle

2570
01:05:17,083 --> 01:05:17,791
because then they're like,

2571
01:05:17,791 --> 01:05:19,083
what the hell is giving

2572
01:05:19,083 --> 01:05:20,375
this thing value if I can't

2573
01:05:20,375 --> 01:05:21,458
even explain it with them?

2574
01:05:21,791 --> 01:05:23,041
Some industrial demand.

2575
01:05:23,291 --> 01:05:24,458
And I think it's just a common

2576
01:05:24,458 --> 01:05:25,750
misconception that a monetary

2577
01:05:25,750 --> 01:05:27,125
good needs some baseline

2578
01:05:27,208 --> 01:05:29,083
non-monetary utility to anchor

2579
01:05:29,083 --> 01:05:31,291
it's worth when in reality.

2580
01:05:31,791 --> 01:05:33,000
It's probably something else.

2581
01:05:33,083 --> 01:05:35,291
It's probably just the

2582
01:05:35,375 --> 01:05:37,500
monetary properties of it that

2583
01:05:37,500 --> 01:05:39,125
we value and we can attach

2584
01:05:39,125 --> 01:05:41,166
value to the properties of

2585
01:05:41,166 --> 01:05:42,333
something and the utility

2586
01:05:42,333 --> 01:05:43,666
that we derive from that.

2587
01:05:44,125 --> 01:05:46,083
Not any cash flows or any

2588
01:05:46,083 --> 01:05:47,500
industrial demand, but this,

2589
01:05:47,750 --> 01:05:48,833
this really challenges the

2590
01:05:48,833 --> 01:05:50,375
traditional view of value

2591
01:05:50,375 --> 01:05:54,291
because this is, um, like, um,

2592
01:05:55,291 --> 01:05:58,166
uh, how like it's kind of like

2593
01:05:58,166 --> 01:05:59,375
intellectual property, you

2594
01:05:59,375 --> 01:06:01,083
know, at at companies where,

2595
01:06:01,416 --> 01:06:03,166
um, or like data or something

2596
01:06:03,166 --> 01:06:04,166
like that where like companies

2597
01:06:04,166 --> 01:06:05,791
like Facebook, they, a lot

2598
01:06:05,791 --> 01:06:07,291
of their values derived from

2599
01:06:07,291 --> 01:06:09,708
IP and data, those are also

2600
01:06:09,708 --> 01:06:11,125
intangible things like how can

2601
01:06:11,125 --> 01:06:12,958
they be valuable, but they,

2602
01:06:13,916 --> 01:06:14,875
they have a lot of value.

2603
01:06:14,875 --> 01:06:16,041
But the same thing for

2604
01:06:16,041 --> 01:06:17,125
a form of money where

2605
01:06:17,375 --> 01:06:19,500
monetary properties are what

2606
01:06:19,500 --> 01:06:20,958
people value for money and

2607
01:06:20,958 --> 01:06:22,166
especially a store of value.

2608
01:06:22,416 --> 01:06:23,583
And what matters there is

2609
01:06:23,583 --> 01:06:25,291
how superior those properties

2610
01:06:25,333 --> 01:06:26,875
are to other monetary goods.

2611
01:06:27,208 --> 01:06:28,500
And then we, we can

2612
01:06:28,500 --> 01:06:29,458
derive value for that.

2613
01:06:29,458 --> 01:06:29,541
So.

2614
01:06:30,625 --> 01:06:32,750
I think intrinsic value in the

2615
01:06:32,750 --> 01:06:33,958
traditional sense is probably

2616
01:06:33,958 --> 01:06:35,250
the wrong way to think about

2617
01:06:35,250 --> 01:06:38,000
it, because, um, with, with

2618
01:06:38,000 --> 01:06:39,625
Bitcoin, maybe there's a

2619
01:06:39,625 --> 01:06:42,916
new form of intrinsic value

2620
01:06:42,916 --> 01:06:44,125
and it's just the intrinsic

2621
01:06:44,125 --> 01:06:45,083
properties that it has.

2622
01:06:45,083 --> 01:06:47,333
And maybe verifiable

2623
01:06:47,333 --> 01:06:49,041
digital scarcity is a new

2624
01:06:49,041 --> 01:06:51,833
form of intrinsic value or

2625
01:06:51,833 --> 01:06:53,166
utility, just not something

2626
01:06:53,166 --> 01:06:54,958
that's physical, um, in

2627
01:06:54,958 --> 01:06:56,000
the traditional sense.

2628
01:06:56,083 --> 01:06:57,291
Um, and, and that's where,

2629
01:06:57,291 --> 01:06:58,333
where people struggle a lot.

2630
01:06:58,333 --> 01:07:00,000
So that's probably my, my

2631
01:07:00,000 --> 01:07:01,125
answer to that is that,

2632
01:07:01,291 --> 01:07:04,375
um, cash flows or other

2633
01:07:04,375 --> 01:07:06,375
intrinsic, um, industrial

2634
01:07:06,375 --> 01:07:08,250
demand don't apply to Bitcoin.

2635
01:07:08,583 --> 01:07:09,125
But that doesn't mean

2636
01:07:09,125 --> 01:07:10,041
that it can't have value.

2637
01:07:10,291 --> 01:07:11,125
It doesn't mean that

2638
01:07:11,125 --> 01:07:12,083
Bitcoin is just the

2639
01:07:12,083 --> 01:07:13,083
greater fool's theory.

2640
01:07:13,083 --> 01:07:14,125
Like a lot of people say

2641
01:07:14,458 --> 01:07:15,541
where, oh, Bitcoin only has

2642
01:07:15,541 --> 01:07:16,666
value because people think

2643
01:07:16,666 --> 01:07:17,875
somebody else will buy it at

2644
01:07:17,875 --> 01:07:19,041
a higher price in the future.

2645
01:07:19,041 --> 01:07:19,375
It's like.

2646
01:07:20,375 --> 01:07:22,083
No, Bitcoin has value because

2647
01:07:22,375 --> 01:07:23,916
nobody can create more of

2648
01:07:23,916 --> 01:07:25,375
it, and I can exchange my

2649
01:07:25,375 --> 01:07:26,500
time and energy for it.

2650
01:07:26,500 --> 01:07:28,625
Now, having analyzed this

2651
01:07:28,625 --> 01:07:29,583
thing and understanding

2652
01:07:29,583 --> 01:07:30,791
that it has by far the

2653
01:07:30,791 --> 01:07:31,916
best monetary properties

2654
01:07:31,958 --> 01:07:33,041
of anything that

2655
01:07:33,041 --> 01:07:34,208
humanity has ever seen.

2656
01:07:34,208 --> 01:07:34,291
Mm-hmm.

2657
01:07:34,625 --> 01:07:36,208
And I'm able to stomach the

2658
01:07:36,208 --> 01:07:37,625
volatility, but I'm pretty

2659
01:07:37,625 --> 01:07:38,875
sure that it will maintain

2660
01:07:38,875 --> 01:07:40,333
my value into the future

2661
01:07:40,541 --> 01:07:41,916
and probably even go up

2662
01:07:41,916 --> 01:07:43,208
in purchasing power terms.

2663
01:07:43,458 --> 01:07:44,541
That's why I value this

2664
01:07:44,541 --> 01:07:46,041
thing and that's why I'm able

2665
01:07:46,041 --> 01:07:48,250
to, or I'm willing to pay

2666
01:07:48,250 --> 01:07:50,333
a lot of money for Bitcoin

2667
01:07:50,333 --> 01:07:51,583
at the moment, or exchange

2668
01:07:51,583 --> 01:07:53,166
a lot of fied money for

2669
01:07:53,291 --> 01:07:54,666
real money at the moment.

2670
01:07:55,125 --> 01:07:56,291
Um, because I value the

2671
01:07:56,291 --> 01:07:57,500
properties that nobody can

2672
01:07:57,583 --> 01:07:58,833
base it and that I don't

2673
01:07:58,833 --> 01:08:00,791
have any massive costs and

2674
01:08:00,791 --> 01:08:01,916
headaches associated with it.

2675
01:08:01,916 --> 01:08:02,833
Like a property, like a

2676
01:08:02,833 --> 01:08:04,208
property might be able to

2677
01:08:04,458 --> 01:08:05,708
store your wealth as well, but

2678
01:08:05,708 --> 01:08:07,541
you've gotta manage penance.

2679
01:08:07,541 --> 01:08:08,083
You have to worry about

2680
01:08:08,083 --> 01:08:09,500
maintenance costs and you

2681
01:08:09,500 --> 01:08:10,250
can't take it with you.

2682
01:08:10,250 --> 01:08:11,125
If I wanted to move back

2683
01:08:11,125 --> 01:08:12,958
to Europe, uh, next year.

2684
01:08:13,708 --> 01:08:14,291
I couldn't take my

2685
01:08:14,291 --> 01:08:15,166
property with me.

2686
01:08:15,250 --> 01:08:16,333
And then there'd be massive

2687
01:08:16,333 --> 01:08:17,666
costs and headaches involved

2688
01:08:17,666 --> 01:08:18,708
with, you know, trying

2689
01:08:18,708 --> 01:08:19,958
to sell that and then

2690
01:08:19,958 --> 01:08:20,833
finding something else

2691
01:08:20,833 --> 01:08:22,541
in Germany with bitcoin.

2692
01:08:22,708 --> 01:08:24,416
I, I just take my private

2693
01:08:24,416 --> 01:08:25,541
keys with me and that's it.

2694
01:08:26,541 --> 01:08:26,958
Yeah.

2695
01:08:27,333 --> 01:08:27,666
Yeah.

2696
01:08:27,750 --> 01:08:29,166
And you know, again,

2697
01:08:29,166 --> 01:08:30,375
intrinsic value is such

2698
01:08:30,375 --> 01:08:31,416
an interesting one.

2699
01:08:31,416 --> 01:08:32,708
And without even trying to

2700
01:08:32,708 --> 01:08:34,083
go into the debate, which

2701
01:08:34,083 --> 01:08:36,291
is what I used to do, is

2702
01:08:36,291 --> 01:08:37,333
like, you know, talking

2703
01:08:37,333 --> 01:08:39,333
about sub subjective value

2704
01:08:39,333 --> 01:08:40,958
versus intrinsic value.

2705
01:08:41,375 --> 01:08:41,541
Mm-hmm.

2706
01:08:41,625 --> 01:08:43,208
I think it, it is

2707
01:08:43,208 --> 01:08:44,333
more important to meet

2708
01:08:44,333 --> 01:08:45,416
people where they're at.

2709
01:08:45,416 --> 01:08:47,083
So I wonder if there is a way

2710
01:08:47,083 --> 01:08:50,458
as well to introduce intrinsic

2711
01:08:50,458 --> 01:08:51,541
value because obviously they

2712
01:08:51,541 --> 01:08:52,750
need something to anchor

2713
01:08:52,750 --> 01:08:55,875
to and a real good world.

2714
01:08:56,458 --> 01:08:57,875
Real world tangible.

2715
01:08:58,375 --> 01:08:59,708
Think that you can point to,

2716
01:08:59,708 --> 01:09:01,250
I guess, the intrinsic value

2717
01:09:01,250 --> 01:09:02,250
in the, in the sense that

2718
01:09:02,250 --> 01:09:03,500
they need to understand it.

2719
01:09:04,041 --> 01:09:05,875
I wonder if that comes to

2720
01:09:05,875 --> 01:09:08,125
like on chain data, things

2721
01:09:08,125 --> 01:09:10,166
like hash rate, how, you

2722
01:09:10,166 --> 01:09:11,625
know, how many miners are

2723
01:09:11,625 --> 01:09:13,375
investing in infrastructure

2724
01:09:13,375 --> 01:09:15,208
to, to maintain this network.

2725
01:09:15,625 --> 01:09:17,000
What are the nodes doing?

2726
01:09:17,000 --> 01:09:18,208
How much are they increasing

2727
01:09:18,208 --> 01:09:20,416
by the adoption rates?

2728
01:09:20,416 --> 01:09:22,791
The, the way how many people

2729
01:09:22,791 --> 01:09:24,208
are holding Bitcoin like

2730
01:09:24,208 --> 01:09:25,458
for longer periods of time,

2731
01:09:25,458 --> 01:09:26,458
like longer than 12 months?

2732
01:09:26,458 --> 01:09:27,750
You can, you can get all

2733
01:09:27,750 --> 01:09:28,875
of this information from,

2734
01:09:28,875 --> 01:09:30,083
so is would this be a

2735
01:09:30,083 --> 01:09:32,875
better way maybe to Yeah.

2736
01:09:32,875 --> 01:09:33,875
Intrinsic them away?

2737
01:09:35,125 --> 01:09:36,375
I, no, I actually

2738
01:09:36,708 --> 01:09:37,416
hadn't considered

2739
01:09:37,416 --> 01:09:39,375
that, but I, I agree.

2740
01:09:39,375 --> 01:09:42,291
Those are like the, um, the

2741
01:09:42,291 --> 01:09:44,375
key metrics of Bitcoin, I

2742
01:09:44,375 --> 01:09:45,208
guess, that, that you've

2743
01:09:45,208 --> 01:09:46,625
just listed, especially

2744
01:09:46,625 --> 01:09:48,791
looking at hash rate minus.

2745
01:09:49,166 --> 01:09:50,750
Nodes all over the world and

2746
01:09:50,750 --> 01:09:52,208
unique Bitcoin addresses.

2747
01:09:52,208 --> 01:09:53,333
Obviously one person can

2748
01:09:53,333 --> 01:09:54,250
have a hundred different

2749
01:09:54,250 --> 01:09:55,208
Bitcoin addresses.

2750
01:09:55,250 --> 01:09:56,208
Um, so it doesn't map

2751
01:09:56,208 --> 01:09:58,375
to, to people one-to-one.

2752
01:09:58,791 --> 01:10:00,000
Um, but as long as those

2753
01:10:00,000 --> 01:10:01,750
numbers are growing, um, and

2754
01:10:01,750 --> 01:10:02,958
there's a good trend in them,

2755
01:10:03,041 --> 01:10:04,666
um, obviously Bitcoin, the

2756
01:10:04,666 --> 01:10:06,125
network itself is growing.

2757
01:10:06,541 --> 01:10:08,666
Um, and I guess the, the

2758
01:10:08,666 --> 01:10:09,791
energy input is probably

2759
01:10:09,791 --> 01:10:10,750
another thing that you could

2760
01:10:10,750 --> 01:10:12,416
look at where obviously

2761
01:10:12,416 --> 01:10:13,708
Bitcoin mining is highly

2762
01:10:13,708 --> 01:10:15,750
energy intensive, but if more

2763
01:10:15,750 --> 01:10:16,958
and more energy is going into

2764
01:10:16,958 --> 01:10:18,375
the network and securing it,

2765
01:10:18,666 --> 01:10:20,916
then maybe that is some, some

2766
01:10:20,916 --> 01:10:22,875
real world anchor that it has,

2767
01:10:22,916 --> 01:10:24,375
um, not just from Bitcoin back

2768
01:10:24,375 --> 01:10:25,416
into the physical world, but

2769
01:10:25,416 --> 01:10:26,541
also from the physical world

2770
01:10:26,541 --> 01:10:28,166
into Bitcoin in terms of the

2771
01:10:28,166 --> 01:10:29,333
value that's flowing into it.

2772
01:10:30,708 --> 01:10:31,000
Yep.

2773
01:10:31,250 --> 01:10:31,583
Yep.

2774
01:10:31,958 --> 01:10:32,625
Noise.

2775
01:10:33,083 --> 01:10:35,166
Um, I wanted to now pivot

2776
01:10:35,166 --> 01:10:37,541
a little bit and ask you

2777
01:10:37,875 --> 01:10:39,500
just broadly, what are

2778
01:10:39,500 --> 01:10:40,875
some of the pros and cons

2779
01:10:40,916 --> 01:10:42,791
of investing into Bitcoin

2780
01:10:43,125 --> 01:10:44,875
directly versus investing

2781
01:10:44,875 --> 01:10:46,625
into Bitcoin futures?

2782
01:10:47,083 --> 01:10:49,583
I'm not like a high

2783
01:10:49,583 --> 01:10:51,041
finance person.

2784
01:10:51,333 --> 01:10:51,375
Yeah.

2785
01:10:51,875 --> 01:10:52,666
You mentioned like

2786
01:10:52,666 --> 01:10:53,750
anything derivatives.

2787
01:10:53,750 --> 01:10:55,000
I'm like, woo, la la.

2788
01:10:56,166 --> 01:10:57,791
So these the, I would just

2789
01:10:57,791 --> 01:10:59,291
love to know from a quant.

2790
01:11:00,625 --> 01:11:00,666
So.

2791
01:11:01,791 --> 01:11:03,541
There For an institutional

2792
01:11:03,541 --> 01:11:05,958
investor like us, there

2793
01:11:05,958 --> 01:11:07,125
are a lot of advantages to

2794
01:11:07,125 --> 01:11:08,500
using futures rather than

2795
01:11:08,583 --> 01:11:10,375
underlying um, assets, but

2796
01:11:10,375 --> 01:11:11,625
especially for Bitcoin.

2797
01:11:12,250 --> 01:11:13,666
Um, part of the reason why

2798
01:11:13,666 --> 01:11:14,916
we did it with futures is

2799
01:11:14,916 --> 01:11:17,000
that in the framework that

2800
01:11:17,000 --> 01:11:19,041
we use to invest in Bitcoin,

2801
01:11:19,125 --> 01:11:20,875
which is our dynamic asset

2802
01:11:20,875 --> 01:11:22,208
allocation, it's like this

2803
01:11:22,208 --> 01:11:23,625
basket of trading strategies

2804
01:11:23,625 --> 01:11:25,875
that we have for, for shares,

2805
01:11:25,875 --> 01:11:28,208
bonds, commodities, um,

2806
01:11:28,333 --> 01:11:30,458
foreign exchange currencies.

2807
01:11:30,875 --> 01:11:32,208
Um, we basically trade

2808
01:11:32,208 --> 01:11:33,041
everything through

2809
01:11:33,041 --> 01:11:34,166
futures anyway because

2810
01:11:34,166 --> 01:11:35,250
they're highly liquid.

2811
01:11:36,000 --> 01:11:36,666
And the good thing with

2812
01:11:36,666 --> 01:11:37,833
futures is you, you

2813
01:11:38,083 --> 01:11:39,041
usually don't have to put

2814
01:11:39,041 --> 01:11:41,125
up the whole capital, um,

2815
01:11:41,125 --> 01:11:43,333
of the, the underlying

2816
01:11:43,333 --> 01:11:44,291
thing that you wanna hold.

2817
01:11:44,291 --> 01:11:46,291
So oftentimes if you have, if

2818
01:11:46,291 --> 01:11:47,500
you want to invest, let's say.

2819
01:11:48,000 --> 01:11:50,833
10 million into, um, the s

2820
01:11:50,833 --> 01:11:52,708
and p 500 through futures.

2821
01:11:52,708 --> 01:11:53,666
You don't have to actually put

2822
01:11:53,666 --> 01:11:55,000
up 10 million, but you might

2823
01:11:55,000 --> 01:11:56,375
only have to put up 1 million

2824
01:11:56,375 --> 01:11:58,125
to get exposure to 10 million.

2825
01:11:58,333 --> 01:11:59,666
So it's almost like you're

2826
01:11:59,666 --> 01:12:01,291
getting a leveraged exposure,

2827
01:12:01,625 --> 01:12:02,708
um, that, that you have to

2828
01:12:02,708 --> 01:12:04,041
manage through the margins

2829
01:12:04,041 --> 01:12:05,041
that you have to maintain.

2830
01:12:05,041 --> 01:12:05,708
So that, that's one of

2831
01:12:05,708 --> 01:12:06,666
the benefits is lost.

2832
01:12:06,875 --> 01:12:07,750
It's less capital

2833
01:12:07,750 --> 01:12:09,416
intensive, but also futures

2834
01:12:09,416 --> 01:12:10,708
are highly regulated,

2835
01:12:10,958 --> 01:12:12,666
um, instruments, so.

2836
01:12:13,625 --> 01:12:14,458
ETFs obviously

2837
01:12:14,458 --> 01:12:15,208
now are as well.

2838
01:12:15,208 --> 01:12:16,125
But the, uh, bitcoin

2839
01:12:16,125 --> 01:12:16,916
futures have been around

2840
01:12:16,916 --> 01:12:18,000
for a lot longer and like,

2841
01:12:18,000 --> 01:12:19,916
especially the CME Bitcoin

2842
01:12:20,333 --> 01:12:21,500
futures from, from the

2843
01:12:21,500 --> 01:12:23,250
US are highly regulated.

2844
01:12:23,250 --> 01:12:25,250
So for us, rather than

2845
01:12:25,250 --> 01:12:26,458
trying to do some kind of

2846
01:12:26,458 --> 01:12:28,500
self custody, um, or, I

2847
01:12:28,500 --> 01:12:29,958
mean Bitcoin, ETFs, uh, in

2848
01:12:29,958 --> 01:12:31,041
Australia didn't exist at

2849
01:12:31,041 --> 01:12:32,000
the time when we started

2850
01:12:32,000 --> 01:12:33,791
investing into Bitcoin through

2851
01:12:33,791 --> 01:12:35,500
mp, um, futures was really

2852
01:12:35,500 --> 01:12:37,416
the only institutional grade

2853
01:12:37,416 --> 01:12:38,666
exposure that we could get.

2854
01:12:38,666 --> 01:12:40,208
And with futures, it's easy

2855
01:12:40,208 --> 01:12:41,541
to dynamically manage them the

2856
01:12:41,541 --> 01:12:42,625
way that we do, where we can

2857
01:12:42,625 --> 01:12:44,000
dial our exposure up and down

2858
01:12:44,000 --> 01:12:45,416
because they're super liquid.

2859
01:12:45,833 --> 01:12:48,000
Um, and, and trade, um, yeah,

2860
01:12:48,000 --> 01:12:49,000
almost around the clock.

2861
01:12:50,041 --> 01:12:50,375
Yep.

2862
01:12:50,458 --> 01:12:51,625
Nice, nice.

2863
01:12:51,625 --> 01:12:52,000
Okay.

2864
01:12:52,000 --> 01:12:52,791
That makes sense.

2865
01:12:52,958 --> 01:12:53,833
I'm just a simple

2866
01:12:53,833 --> 01:12:54,958
woman and I like to buy

2867
01:12:54,958 --> 01:12:56,000
my Bitcoin directly.

2868
01:12:56,833 --> 01:12:58,208
And I mean, to be honest,

2869
01:12:58,208 --> 01:12:59,541
like not financial advice

2870
01:12:59,541 --> 01:13:00,958
obviously, but I think on a

2871
01:13:00,958 --> 01:13:03,458
personal level, um, the, the,

2872
01:13:03,541 --> 01:13:05,750
the best thing to do is to buy

2873
01:13:05,875 --> 01:13:08,291
Bitcoin directly and to try to

2874
01:13:08,291 --> 01:13:09,750
self custody at least a part

2875
01:13:09,750 --> 01:13:11,583
of that because unless you do

2876
01:13:11,583 --> 01:13:13,250
that, you don't actually get

2877
01:13:13,250 --> 01:13:14,791
a lot of the benefits that,

2878
01:13:14,875 --> 01:13:16,416
um, you know, Bitcoin offers.

2879
01:13:16,416 --> 01:13:17,875
Like, you don't get the

2880
01:13:17,875 --> 01:13:19,000
sovereignty, you don't

2881
01:13:19,000 --> 01:13:20,041
get the ability to take

2882
01:13:20,041 --> 01:13:20,916
it anywhere with you

2883
01:13:20,916 --> 01:13:21,958
as long as you're still

2884
01:13:21,958 --> 01:13:23,125
holding it on an exchange.

2885
01:13:23,166 --> 01:13:24,625
Or even worse if you're

2886
01:13:24,625 --> 01:13:25,791
holding it through futures.

2887
01:13:25,791 --> 01:13:27,583
Personally, all you're getting

2888
01:13:27,583 --> 01:13:29,166
is price exposure to Bitcoin,

2889
01:13:29,458 --> 01:13:31,250
but you're not getting any of

2890
01:13:31,250 --> 01:13:32,541
the monetary properties of it.

2891
01:13:32,541 --> 01:13:33,250
You only get the

2892
01:13:33,250 --> 01:13:34,125
monetary properties if

2893
01:13:34,125 --> 01:13:35,041
you self custody it.

2894
01:13:36,000 --> 01:13:36,250
Yep.

2895
01:13:36,791 --> 01:13:37,166
Yeah.

2896
01:13:37,833 --> 01:13:38,250
Yep.

2897
01:13:38,833 --> 01:13:39,291
I like it.

2898
01:13:40,541 --> 01:13:40,583
Yeah.

2899
01:13:40,583 --> 01:13:42,500
And this leads in very

2900
01:13:42,500 --> 01:13:44,208
nicely to the next question.

2901
01:13:44,458 --> 01:13:46,291
In your personal life,

2902
01:13:46,833 --> 01:13:48,291
do you wear your quant

2903
01:13:48,291 --> 01:13:49,708
hat or do you wear your

2904
01:13:49,958 --> 01:13:51,583
Bitcoin Maximus hat when

2905
01:13:51,583 --> 01:13:52,791
it comes to buying Bitcoin?

2906
01:13:54,916 --> 01:13:57,458
Let's just say the, the

2907
01:13:57,458 --> 01:14:00,708
orange hat, it's the one

2908
01:14:00,708 --> 01:14:01,708
that I'm wearing more.

2909
01:14:02,625 --> 01:14:04,125
It's, uh, the, the hat

2910
01:14:04,125 --> 01:14:05,500
is based on conviction.

2911
01:14:05,791 --> 01:14:06,625
Um, yeah.

2912
01:14:07,291 --> 01:14:07,583
Yep.

2913
01:14:07,875 --> 01:14:08,375
I love it.

2914
01:14:08,375 --> 01:14:08,916
I love it.

2915
01:14:08,916 --> 01:14:11,583
It's just, yeah, conviction

2916
01:14:11,583 --> 01:14:13,333
is so important and the only

2917
01:14:13,333 --> 01:14:14,833
way to maintain it is to

2918
01:14:14,833 --> 01:14:16,375
continually keep reading,

2919
01:14:16,375 --> 01:14:17,708
continue, keep studying.

2920
01:14:17,833 --> 01:14:19,083
And I've, you know, I've

2921
01:14:19,083 --> 01:14:20,125
had moments as well, 'cause

2922
01:14:20,125 --> 01:14:21,750
I'm very new to Bitcoin.

2923
01:14:21,750 --> 01:14:23,208
I've had moments where I'm

2924
01:14:23,208 --> 01:14:24,875
like, am I right about this?

2925
01:14:25,125 --> 01:14:26,416
Have I, are there any risks

2926
01:14:26,416 --> 01:14:28,333
that I, that I missed out on?

2927
01:14:28,333 --> 01:14:28,875
And I'm like.

2928
01:14:29,166 --> 01:14:30,500
You know, trying to find

2929
01:14:30,500 --> 01:14:31,750
my friendliest og and

2930
01:14:31,750 --> 01:14:32,750
I'd be like, this is

2931
01:14:32,750 --> 01:14:33,500
what I'm worried about.

2932
01:14:33,500 --> 01:14:34,375
They're like, oh,

2933
01:14:35,875 --> 01:14:37,291
a 30% drawback.

2934
01:14:37,416 --> 01:14:39,375
Oh, welcome to Bitcoin.

2935
01:14:39,583 --> 01:14:41,166
Like, yeah, yeah.

2936
01:14:41,625 --> 01:14:42,916
Wait till you hit 80.

2937
01:14:42,916 --> 01:14:44,166
You're like, I don't

2938
01:14:44,166 --> 01:14:45,083
think we will anymore.

2939
01:14:45,083 --> 01:14:46,541
But yeah, hopefully we won't.

2940
01:14:46,541 --> 01:14:47,958
But you know, still your

2941
01:14:47,958 --> 01:14:49,791
first, your first experience

2942
01:14:49,791 --> 01:14:51,000
can be quite emotional,

2943
01:14:51,000 --> 01:14:52,250
but I think the best way

2944
01:14:52,250 --> 01:14:53,375
to manage the emotion is

2945
01:14:53,375 --> 01:14:55,333
just to, to keep studying.

2946
01:14:55,666 --> 01:14:58,291
Um, and a hundred

2947
01:14:58,291 --> 01:15:00,458
percent like, and this

2948
01:15:00,458 --> 01:15:01,791
is what I say to people.

2949
01:15:02,666 --> 01:15:03,500
That asks me about

2950
01:15:03,625 --> 01:15:05,125
Bitcoin all the time.

2951
01:15:05,125 --> 01:15:06,916
It's like the best thing for

2952
01:15:06,916 --> 01:15:08,583
me about Bitcoin hasn't even

2953
01:15:08,583 --> 01:15:10,041
been investing in Bitcoin.

2954
01:15:10,250 --> 01:15:11,416
Yeah, that's been good.

2955
01:15:11,458 --> 01:15:12,666
But the best thing about

2956
01:15:12,666 --> 01:15:14,708
Bitcoin has been everything

2957
01:15:14,708 --> 01:15:16,875
that I learned along the way

2958
01:15:16,875 --> 01:15:18,291
in order to try to understand

2959
01:15:18,291 --> 01:15:19,708
Bitcoin as well as I can.

2960
01:15:19,708 --> 01:15:20,958
And nobody will ever fully

2961
01:15:20,958 --> 01:15:21,875
understand Bitcoin like

2962
01:15:21,875 --> 01:15:22,708
this is the other crazy

2963
01:15:22,708 --> 01:15:24,000
thing, is like no matter

2964
01:15:24,000 --> 01:15:25,541
how much you study it, there

2965
01:15:25,541 --> 01:15:26,541
will always be something

2966
01:15:26,541 --> 01:15:27,416
that you don't understand.

2967
01:15:27,416 --> 01:15:28,250
Nobody has a full

2968
01:15:28,250 --> 01:15:28,791
understanding.

2969
01:15:28,791 --> 01:15:29,541
Nobody ever will,

2970
01:15:29,541 --> 01:15:30,166
I don't think.

2971
01:15:30,625 --> 01:15:32,541
Um, but what you learn along

2972
01:15:32,541 --> 01:15:34,916
the way makes you grow so much

2973
01:15:34,916 --> 01:15:36,416
in terms of understanding how

2974
01:15:36,416 --> 01:15:38,000
the world works, understanding

2975
01:15:38,000 --> 01:15:39,958
how the financial system that

2976
01:15:39,958 --> 01:15:41,500
we operate in work works.

2977
01:15:41,500 --> 01:15:42,666
How fractional reserve

2978
01:15:42,666 --> 01:15:43,666
banking works, what the

2979
01:15:43,666 --> 01:15:44,958
role of central banks is.

2980
01:15:45,708 --> 01:15:46,833
As we talked about, like the

2981
01:15:46,833 --> 01:15:47,958
history of money and how we

2982
01:15:47,958 --> 01:15:49,625
got here, you, you can also

2983
01:15:49,625 --> 01:15:50,833
go down rabbit holes about

2984
01:15:50,833 --> 01:15:52,458
cryptography, information

2985
01:15:52,458 --> 01:15:55,083
systems, energy use, energy

2986
01:15:55,083 --> 01:15:56,458
grids, how Bitcoin mining

2987
01:15:56,458 --> 01:15:57,958
can be plugged in to help,

2988
01:15:58,291 --> 01:16:00,125
uh, finance sustainable

2989
01:16:00,208 --> 01:16:01,416
renewable projects.

2990
01:16:01,416 --> 01:16:02,875
How Bitcoin mining can

2991
01:16:02,875 --> 01:16:04,375
help stabilize energy grids

2992
01:16:04,375 --> 01:16:05,708
all over the world and

2993
01:16:05,958 --> 01:16:07,458
can really push us towards

2994
01:16:07,458 --> 01:16:09,208
this renewable, um, energy

2995
01:16:09,208 --> 01:16:10,333
that we want to move to.

2996
01:16:11,041 --> 01:16:11,666
And like all of

2997
01:16:11,666 --> 01:16:12,333
these other things.

2998
01:16:12,333 --> 01:16:13,166
And like all of a sudden

2999
01:16:13,166 --> 01:16:14,333
you're going down rabbit

3000
01:16:14,333 --> 01:16:16,041
holes about thermodynamics

3001
01:16:16,041 --> 01:16:17,250
and like all these crazy

3002
01:16:17,250 --> 01:16:19,125
things and you just, you

3003
01:16:19,125 --> 01:16:20,208
just start to see the world

3004
01:16:20,208 --> 01:16:20,958
through a different lens.

3005
01:16:20,958 --> 01:16:22,125
And that's why Bitcoin

3006
01:16:22,125 --> 01:16:22,916
has called it taking

3007
01:16:22,916 --> 01:16:24,041
the orange pill as well.

3008
01:16:24,041 --> 01:16:25,083
Just like in the Matrix

3009
01:16:25,083 --> 01:16:27,416
where Morpheus offers neo the

3010
01:16:27,416 --> 01:16:28,666
choice of the, the red pill

3011
01:16:28,666 --> 01:16:30,291
or the blue pill where, you

3012
01:16:30,291 --> 01:16:31,708
know, one is he goes back

3013
01:16:31,708 --> 01:16:32,666
in the matrix and doesn't

3014
01:16:32,666 --> 01:16:33,625
know that, you know, he's

3015
01:16:33,625 --> 01:16:34,625
in the matrix and he is,

3016
01:16:34,708 --> 01:16:35,875
uh, blissfully ignorant.

3017
01:16:36,125 --> 01:16:37,125
And the other one is that

3018
01:16:37,125 --> 01:16:38,208
he stays awake to it.

3019
01:16:38,208 --> 01:16:39,458
And outside of the matrix.

3020
01:16:40,125 --> 01:16:41,000
And knows what's going on.

3021
01:16:41,000 --> 01:16:42,708
And as a Bitcoin, once you've

3022
01:16:42,708 --> 01:16:43,833
studied it enough, you, you,

3023
01:16:43,916 --> 01:16:45,125
you've taken the orange pill

3024
01:16:45,125 --> 01:16:46,416
and you never see the world

3025
01:16:46,416 --> 01:16:47,500
the same way, which is a bit

3026
01:16:47,500 --> 01:16:48,708
frightening, but it's also

3027
01:16:49,083 --> 01:16:50,708
really empowering because

3028
01:16:50,708 --> 01:16:52,208
all of a sudden you like

3029
01:16:52,208 --> 01:16:53,291
everything that happens,

3030
01:16:53,291 --> 01:16:54,125
like you read something in

3031
01:16:54,125 --> 01:16:55,750
the news and you're, you're

3032
01:16:55,916 --> 01:16:56,833
as a Bitcoin, you're like,

3033
01:16:56,833 --> 01:16:58,375
ah, yeah, no, I know what

3034
01:16:58,375 --> 01:16:59,625
the agenda behind that is.

3035
01:16:59,625 --> 01:17:00,541
And like you, you see

3036
01:17:00,541 --> 01:17:01,666
everything a bit differently.

3037
01:17:02,125 --> 01:17:03,666
Um, so that's the best thing

3038
01:17:03,666 --> 01:17:05,541
about Bitcoin is it's free

3039
01:17:05,541 --> 01:17:06,791
the money, but it can also

3040
01:17:06,791 --> 01:17:09,208
free your mind, um, to escape

3041
01:17:09,500 --> 01:17:12,041
this fiat matrix that the

3042
01:17:12,041 --> 01:17:13,250
world has constructed for us.

3043
01:17:13,625 --> 01:17:15,708
Yeah, yeah, absolutely

3044
01:17:15,708 --> 01:17:16,291
agree with you.

3045
01:17:16,333 --> 01:17:17,625
It is very empowering

3046
01:17:17,625 --> 01:17:18,458
in that sense.

3047
01:17:18,458 --> 01:17:20,041
It has completely renewed

3048
01:17:20,333 --> 01:17:21,916
my thirst for knowledge,

3049
01:17:22,041 --> 01:17:23,750
unlike anything ever before.

3050
01:17:23,750 --> 01:17:24,791
And I just like, I

3051
01:17:24,791 --> 01:17:26,416
genuinely enjoy learning.

3052
01:17:26,416 --> 01:17:27,541
I genuinely enjoy, I

3053
01:17:27,625 --> 01:17:28,958
genuinely enjoy reading

3054
01:17:28,958 --> 01:17:30,250
and consuming content.

3055
01:17:30,500 --> 01:17:31,916
And it feels empowering

3056
01:17:31,916 --> 01:17:33,250
because I remember.

3057
01:17:33,666 --> 01:17:35,333
Um, I always used to be

3058
01:17:35,333 --> 01:17:37,541
quite intimidated by older

3059
01:17:37,541 --> 01:17:39,416
people, by more educated

3060
01:17:39,416 --> 01:17:41,041
people, by, you know, people

3061
01:17:41,041 --> 01:17:42,375
who are in higher positions.

3062
01:17:42,375 --> 01:17:43,708
And that is really no

3063
01:17:43,708 --> 01:17:45,041
longer the case when it

3064
01:17:45,041 --> 01:17:46,500
comes to Bitcoin at least.

3065
01:17:46,500 --> 01:17:48,041
And, and, you know, any,

3066
01:17:48,041 --> 01:17:50,250
anyone with a position title

3067
01:17:50,375 --> 01:17:51,375
or, you know, in some sort

3068
01:17:51,375 --> 01:17:53,083
of position of authority,

3069
01:17:53,833 --> 01:17:54,833
what, no matter what they

3070
01:17:54,833 --> 01:17:56,291
say, I don't feel like

3071
01:17:57,125 --> 01:17:58,791
intimidated by it or, you

3072
01:17:58,791 --> 01:17:59,791
know, they can say whatever

3073
01:17:59,791 --> 01:18:00,791
they want and I'm like, it

3074
01:18:00,791 --> 01:18:03,125
doesn't waver my conviction.

3075
01:18:03,125 --> 01:18:04,541
And that, that is a very

3076
01:18:04,916 --> 01:18:06,875
empowering place to be in.

3077
01:18:07,291 --> 01:18:08,666
Um, so I couldn't, I

3078
01:18:08,666 --> 01:18:09,708
couldn't agree with you more.

3079
01:18:10,791 --> 01:18:11,083
Yeah.

3080
01:18:11,083 --> 01:18:13,958
Um, it's also like the

3081
01:18:13,958 --> 01:18:15,041
beautiful thing about it is

3082
01:18:15,041 --> 01:18:16,666
all these like side benefits

3083
01:18:16,666 --> 01:18:19,208
that you get, like very

3084
01:18:19,208 --> 01:18:20,833
organically, it has lowered

3085
01:18:20,833 --> 01:18:23,750
my time preference and the

3086
01:18:23,750 --> 01:18:24,875
longer I'm in Bitcoin, the

3087
01:18:24,875 --> 01:18:26,375
longer that, that, that.

3088
01:18:27,333 --> 01:18:28,166
Time preference

3089
01:18:28,166 --> 01:18:29,125
kind of extends.

3090
01:18:29,333 --> 01:18:31,125
I can't wait to start painting

3091
01:18:31,125 --> 01:18:33,083
and you know, just going back

3092
01:18:33,083 --> 01:18:34,375
to you, you know, studying

3093
01:18:34,375 --> 01:18:35,458
just for the sake of it.

3094
01:18:35,583 --> 01:18:37,166
Like, just because I

3095
01:18:37,166 --> 01:18:38,833
can, like, just random

3096
01:18:38,875 --> 01:18:39,583
things like that.

3097
01:18:39,583 --> 01:18:43,125
Um, and it's, it, it's

3098
01:18:43,125 --> 01:18:45,625
almost like Bitcoin is like

3099
01:18:45,625 --> 01:18:48,500
a mind virus that's positive.

3100
01:18:48,916 --> 01:18:50,708
You know, like usually if,

3101
01:18:50,708 --> 01:18:52,000
if we think about viruses,

3102
01:18:52,000 --> 01:18:53,166
it's a, a negative thing

3103
01:18:53,166 --> 01:18:54,291
because they make us sick.

3104
01:18:54,375 --> 01:18:56,416
Um, but Bitcoin is like a

3105
01:18:56,416 --> 01:18:57,833
type of virus that you catch

3106
01:18:57,833 --> 01:18:59,000
that makes you healthier and

3107
01:18:59,000 --> 01:19:00,375
healthier over time mentally

3108
01:19:00,375 --> 01:19:01,500
and potentially physically

3109
01:19:01,500 --> 01:19:02,416
for a lot of people as well.

3110
01:19:02,416 --> 01:19:04,375
Because you, you, you start to

3111
01:19:04,375 --> 01:19:06,333
get this low time preference

3112
01:19:06,333 --> 01:19:07,958
thinking, and if you really

3113
01:19:07,958 --> 01:19:09,541
think about like everything.

3114
01:19:10,166 --> 01:19:11,375
Beautiful and worthwhile

3115
01:19:11,375 --> 01:19:13,083
in life requires this

3116
01:19:13,083 --> 01:19:13,958
type of thinking.

3117
01:19:13,958 --> 01:19:15,458
Like if you want to have a

3118
01:19:15,458 --> 01:19:17,375
fit, strong, healthy body,

3119
01:19:17,833 --> 01:19:19,083
that requires you eating

3120
01:19:19,083 --> 01:19:20,500
healthy on a daily basis,

3121
01:19:20,500 --> 01:19:22,541
moving a lot, sleeping enough,

3122
01:19:22,750 --> 01:19:24,125
stretching your body, you

3123
01:19:24,125 --> 01:19:25,125
know, doing all the right

3124
01:19:25,125 --> 01:19:26,375
things, but not just for a

3125
01:19:26,375 --> 01:19:28,458
week or month or one year, but

3126
01:19:28,458 --> 01:19:29,791
like a whole life basically.

3127
01:19:30,666 --> 01:19:32,500
If you wanna start a family,

3128
01:19:32,500 --> 01:19:34,541
if you wanna be mentally

3129
01:19:34,541 --> 01:19:35,583
well, if you know, you'd

3130
01:19:35,583 --> 01:19:36,916
want to be in a good head

3131
01:19:36,916 --> 01:19:38,500
space like that, those are

3132
01:19:38,500 --> 01:19:39,333
all things that you have

3133
01:19:39,333 --> 01:19:40,333
to take care of, that have

3134
01:19:40,333 --> 01:19:41,708
to be day-to-day things.

3135
01:19:42,125 --> 01:19:43,333
Um, and that require you

3136
01:19:43,333 --> 01:19:44,166
to think for the long

3137
01:19:44,166 --> 01:19:45,250
term and not just live in

3138
01:19:45,250 --> 01:19:46,583
the here and now and live

3139
01:19:46,666 --> 01:19:48,583
hedonistic, um, you know,

3140
01:19:48,583 --> 01:19:50,083
short term thinking lifestyle.

3141
01:19:50,291 --> 01:19:52,375
So Bitcoin is like perfectly

3142
01:19:52,375 --> 01:19:54,375
aligned with what all the

3143
01:19:54,375 --> 01:19:55,750
philosophers have always told

3144
01:19:55,750 --> 01:19:57,458
us about wanting to live a

3145
01:19:57,458 --> 01:19:58,625
happy and fulfilled life.

3146
01:19:58,625 --> 01:20:00,000
And Bitcoin just is like a

3147
01:20:00,000 --> 01:20:01,625
money that fits in perfectly

3148
01:20:01,625 --> 01:20:03,250
into that whole idea.

3149
01:20:03,791 --> 01:20:04,208
It's beautiful.

3150
01:20:04,208 --> 01:20:05,458
Yeah, absolutely.

3151
01:20:05,458 --> 01:20:06,250
I mean, I wanna eat

3152
01:20:06,250 --> 01:20:07,416
healthy and exercise so

3153
01:20:07,416 --> 01:20:08,666
I can see Bitcoin become

3154
01:20:08,666 --> 01:20:09,750
a medium of exchange.

3155
01:20:09,750 --> 01:20:10,500
Is that quite bad?

3156
01:20:10,500 --> 01:20:10,875
Exactly.

3157
01:20:13,250 --> 01:20:14,291
I just wanna be around to see

3158
01:20:14,291 --> 01:20:15,708
how everything's going unfold.

3159
01:20:18,916 --> 01:20:20,416
Um, last question or

3160
01:20:20,416 --> 01:20:21,500
second, last question.

3161
01:20:21,583 --> 01:20:23,916
Um, I, is there a person in

3162
01:20:23,916 --> 01:20:25,291
your life or at work that

3163
01:20:25,291 --> 01:20:26,333
you orange peel that you're

3164
01:20:26,333 --> 01:20:28,416
super proud of that you, you

3165
01:20:28,416 --> 01:20:30,416
know, saw go from like really

3166
01:20:30,416 --> 01:20:31,833
skeptical to like, oh my

3167
01:20:31,833 --> 01:20:32,875
God, this is the best thing.

3168
01:20:32,875 --> 01:20:33,666
Thank you so much

3169
01:20:33,666 --> 01:20:34,708
for introducing me.

3170
01:20:37,541 --> 01:20:37,916
Wow.

3171
01:20:38,791 --> 01:20:40,625
I don't know if there's

3172
01:20:40,625 --> 01:20:42,958
someone, I mean, my fiance,

3173
01:20:43,166 --> 01:20:45,250
um, I think I, I managed to

3174
01:20:45,250 --> 01:20:47,291
orange peel her a, a fair bit.

3175
01:20:47,875 --> 01:20:51,833
Um, but at work I, like,

3176
01:20:51,958 --> 01:20:53,041
I don't think that I've

3177
01:20:53,041 --> 01:20:54,083
necessarily completely

3178
01:20:54,083 --> 01:20:56,375
orange peeled anybody.

3179
01:20:56,458 --> 01:20:58,041
Stuart is quite orange peeled,

3180
01:20:58,041 --> 01:20:59,625
but he, he was a gold bug

3181
01:20:59,625 --> 01:21:00,750
before discovering Bitcoin.

3182
01:21:00,750 --> 01:21:01,583
He understood all of

3183
01:21:01,583 --> 01:21:03,250
the underlying issues

3184
01:21:03,250 --> 01:21:04,166
that need to be fixed

3185
01:21:04,166 --> 01:21:05,416
with hard money already.

3186
01:21:06,125 --> 01:21:07,125
But what I'm actually quite

3187
01:21:07,125 --> 01:21:09,166
proud of is Shane Oliver, who

3188
01:21:09,166 --> 01:21:10,375
I was on the podcast with.

3189
01:21:10,375 --> 01:21:11,041
He.

3190
01:21:11,791 --> 01:21:12,708
He used to be really

3191
01:21:12,708 --> 01:21:14,375
outspoken, um,

3192
01:21:14,416 --> 01:21:15,791
negatively about Bitcoin.

3193
01:21:16,166 --> 01:21:17,291
He, he used to be a big

3194
01:21:17,333 --> 01:21:18,875
Bitcoin critic and he's still

3195
01:21:18,875 --> 01:21:20,791
skeptical, but as you would've

3196
01:21:20,791 --> 01:21:22,541
heard on the podcast Yep.

3197
01:21:22,833 --> 01:21:24,458
He's, he's now very open

3198
01:21:24,458 --> 01:21:25,833
to it potentially being

3199
01:21:25,833 --> 01:21:27,875
this new form of digital

3200
01:21:27,875 --> 01:21:30,000
gold and for, to have a

3201
01:21:30,041 --> 01:21:31,333
place, at least as a reserve

3202
01:21:31,333 --> 01:21:32,500
asset and as a store value.

3203
01:21:32,500 --> 01:21:33,458
Like he's really coming

3204
01:21:33,458 --> 01:21:34,250
around to that idea.

3205
01:21:34,250 --> 01:21:35,750
And I think part of it is that

3206
01:21:36,416 --> 01:21:38,500
we are having open dialogues

3207
01:21:38,500 --> 01:21:40,125
within a and p around this.

3208
01:21:40,125 --> 01:21:41,916
I talk about it all the time,

3209
01:21:41,916 --> 01:21:44,500
and I guess through practicing

3210
01:21:44,500 --> 01:21:46,208
that so many times, I've found

3211
01:21:46,625 --> 01:21:47,875
a good narrative and a good

3212
01:21:47,875 --> 01:21:49,333
way of communicating it to

3213
01:21:49,333 --> 01:21:50,500
traditional finance people.

3214
01:21:50,500 --> 01:21:51,625
So I think it resonates with

3215
01:21:51,625 --> 01:21:53,333
him, but also to his credit,

3216
01:21:54,125 --> 01:21:55,291
he's keeping an open mind.

3217
01:21:55,291 --> 01:21:56,166
And like Shane has been

3218
01:21:56,166 --> 01:21:57,916
with a MP for over 40 years

3219
01:21:58,166 --> 01:21:59,250
and he's been a Keynesian

3220
01:21:59,250 --> 01:22:00,875
economist his whole life.

3221
01:22:01,416 --> 01:22:02,666
And usually those

3222
01:22:02,666 --> 01:22:03,708
types of people.

3223
01:22:04,250 --> 01:22:06,083
Uh, unfortunately quite close

3224
01:22:06,083 --> 01:22:07,958
minded about Bitcoin because

3225
01:22:08,125 --> 01:22:09,833
it challenges their whole

3226
01:22:09,833 --> 01:22:11,416
worldview and everything that

3227
01:22:11,416 --> 01:22:12,916
they've been preaching for 40

3228
01:22:12,916 --> 01:22:14,916
years in, in, in Shane's case.

3229
01:22:15,416 --> 01:22:17,208
But he somehow is able to

3230
01:22:17,208 --> 01:22:18,583
keep a really open mind and to

3231
01:22:18,583 --> 01:22:20,000
be open to innovation and to

3232
01:22:20,000 --> 01:22:21,791
actually consider this thing.

3233
01:22:21,791 --> 01:22:22,583
And he understands

3234
01:22:22,583 --> 01:22:23,375
Bitcoin really well.

3235
01:22:23,375 --> 01:22:24,125
You would've heard in the

3236
01:22:24,125 --> 01:22:25,750
podcast, like he, he actually

3237
01:22:25,750 --> 01:22:26,666
understands a lot of the

3238
01:22:26,666 --> 01:22:27,875
dynamics behind it quite

3239
01:22:27,875 --> 01:22:29,875
well, um, for, for someone

3240
01:22:29,875 --> 01:22:31,333
who's an economist and a

3241
01:22:31,416 --> 01:22:32,750
a, a bit older as well.

3242
01:22:33,125 --> 01:22:34,791
Um, so yeah, I'm really

3243
01:22:34,791 --> 01:22:35,958
impressed by his ability

3244
01:22:35,958 --> 01:22:37,625
to do, to do that, but also

3245
01:22:37,875 --> 01:22:40,125
proud of myself for pushing

3246
01:22:40,125 --> 01:22:41,666
him a bit in that direction.

3247
01:22:42,083 --> 01:22:43,166
Yeah, me too.

3248
01:22:43,166 --> 01:22:43,541
Me too.

3249
01:22:43,541 --> 01:22:45,166
It's such an admirable quality

3250
01:22:45,166 --> 01:22:46,791
to see someone, especially

3251
01:22:46,791 --> 01:22:47,708
the longer they've been in

3252
01:22:47,708 --> 01:22:49,250
a certain profession and the

3253
01:22:49,250 --> 01:22:50,666
longer they've subscribed

3254
01:22:50,666 --> 01:22:52,708
to a certain type of, you

3255
01:22:52,708 --> 01:22:53,750
know, economic school of

3256
01:22:53,750 --> 01:22:55,458
thought, then the harder they

3257
01:22:55,458 --> 01:22:57,291
might be to like undo that.

3258
01:22:57,291 --> 01:22:59,000
So yeah, like I think it's

3259
01:22:59,000 --> 01:23:00,833
a, it's a great quality, um,

3260
01:23:00,916 --> 01:23:02,208
for anyone to be able to sort

3261
01:23:02,208 --> 01:23:03,708
of change their mind in light

3262
01:23:03,708 --> 01:23:04,791
of some new information,

3263
01:23:04,791 --> 01:23:06,083
even if it is happening,

3264
01:23:06,083 --> 01:23:07,166
you know, bit by bit.

3265
01:23:07,583 --> 01:23:09,083
But I, last question I wanted

3266
01:23:09,083 --> 01:23:11,125
to ask you is, I have a lot

3267
01:23:11,125 --> 01:23:13,541
of wonderful Bitcoin Maximus

3268
01:23:13,541 --> 01:23:15,291
friends all over Australia

3269
01:23:15,291 --> 01:23:16,625
who are in, you know,

3270
01:23:16,833 --> 01:23:18,333
pretty powerful positions

3271
01:23:18,333 --> 01:23:19,708
within their companies and

3272
01:23:19,708 --> 01:23:21,416
a lot of them are banks and

3273
01:23:21,416 --> 01:23:24,625
superannuations and whatnot,

3274
01:23:24,625 --> 01:23:26,583
and, and they really wanna

3275
01:23:26,583 --> 01:23:28,500
start having that conversation

3276
01:23:28,500 --> 01:23:30,291
and kicking it off at work

3277
01:23:30,291 --> 01:23:31,791
with, with their colleagues

3278
01:23:31,791 --> 01:23:33,750
and, and people who, you

3279
01:23:33,750 --> 01:23:35,333
know, might potentially

3280
01:23:36,291 --> 01:23:38,000
be able to influence,

3281
01:23:38,041 --> 01:23:39,208
you know, some sort of.

3282
01:23:39,750 --> 01:23:41,583
Adoption within their company.

3283
01:23:41,916 --> 01:23:43,958
Um, what advice might be

3284
01:23:44,000 --> 01:23:45,500
for you to those people?

3285
01:23:45,500 --> 01:23:47,708
Like how to, I guess, come

3286
01:23:47,708 --> 01:23:49,625
out of the shell and, and

3287
01:23:49,625 --> 01:23:52,250
navigate, uh, potential

3288
01:23:52,291 --> 01:23:54,000
criticism and potential?

3289
01:23:54,083 --> 01:23:54,375
Yeah.

3290
01:23:54,375 --> 01:23:55,500
Like, no one wants

3291
01:23:55,500 --> 01:23:56,500
to be ostracized.

3292
01:23:56,500 --> 01:23:57,875
No one wants to be treated

3293
01:23:57,875 --> 01:23:59,250
like they're weird, but Yeah.

3294
01:23:59,291 --> 01:24:00,416
How, how, what would you say?

3295
01:24:01,458 --> 01:24:01,875
Yeah.

3296
01:24:02,333 --> 01:24:04,750
Um, it's tri, it's tricky and

3297
01:24:04,750 --> 01:24:06,958
I think everybody needs to

3298
01:24:06,958 --> 01:24:10,000
be aware of their particular

3299
01:24:10,000 --> 01:24:11,250
firm and their particular

3300
01:24:11,250 --> 01:24:12,125
environment and what the

3301
01:24:12,125 --> 01:24:13,333
people around them are like.

3302
01:24:13,916 --> 01:24:15,666
I think one thing people

3303
01:24:15,666 --> 01:24:17,458
could do is, and they're

3304
01:24:17,458 --> 01:24:18,500
probably doing this already,

3305
01:24:18,500 --> 01:24:19,833
is have, you know, one-on-one

3306
01:24:19,833 --> 01:24:21,333
conversations with colleagues

3307
01:24:21,333 --> 01:24:22,291
and people in their team

3308
01:24:22,666 --> 01:24:24,250
just to gauge where people

3309
01:24:24,250 --> 01:24:25,416
are at with Bitcoin.

3310
01:24:25,791 --> 01:24:27,666
But I think one thing that

3311
01:24:27,750 --> 01:24:29,125
wouldn't hurt anybody, and

3312
01:24:29,125 --> 01:24:31,083
especially at a bank or

3313
01:24:31,083 --> 01:24:32,500
within a superannuation fund.

3314
01:24:33,375 --> 01:24:34,333
If you are either in

3315
01:24:34,333 --> 01:24:35,666
the investment team at a

3316
01:24:35,666 --> 01:24:37,416
superannuation fund or at

3317
01:24:37,416 --> 01:24:38,625
a team that's, you know,

3318
01:24:38,625 --> 01:24:39,875
thinking about, you know,

3319
01:24:40,333 --> 01:24:41,541
future, the future and

3320
01:24:41,541 --> 01:24:43,333
innovation within a bank.

3321
01:24:43,875 --> 01:24:45,375
Um, trying to set up

3322
01:24:45,375 --> 01:24:46,750
something like a workshop

3323
01:24:46,875 --> 01:24:49,666
around Bitcoin, um, could be

3324
01:24:49,750 --> 01:24:50,875
a good idea and super easy.

3325
01:24:50,875 --> 01:24:51,791
'cause like, who's

3326
01:24:51,791 --> 01:24:52,958
gonna say no to you?

3327
01:24:53,333 --> 01:24:55,000
Suggesting you running a

3328
01:24:55,000 --> 01:24:56,833
workshop and dedicating your

3329
01:24:56,833 --> 01:24:58,083
time and energy to doing that.

3330
01:24:58,083 --> 01:24:59,291
Like, there's nothing to

3331
01:24:59,291 --> 01:25:00,916
lose for, uh, you know,

3332
01:25:00,916 --> 01:25:02,083
someone who's, who's

3333
01:25:02,083 --> 01:25:03,250
your boss or in a, in a

3334
01:25:03,250 --> 01:25:04,375
position of power there.

3335
01:25:04,875 --> 01:25:06,250
Um, and then the way that

3336
01:25:06,250 --> 01:25:07,291
you could sell it, I guess

3337
01:25:07,291 --> 01:25:08,416
in the superannuation fund,

3338
01:25:08,416 --> 01:25:09,416
and this is kind of how I

3339
01:25:09,416 --> 01:25:10,708
sold the first workshop that

3340
01:25:10,708 --> 01:25:13,416
we did to, to our CIO, was

3341
01:25:13,416 --> 01:25:15,833
that Bitcoin obviously is

3342
01:25:15,833 --> 01:25:16,750
becoming this thing that

3343
01:25:16,750 --> 01:25:18,833
is institutional grade and.

3344
01:25:19,375 --> 01:25:20,750
I've studied this thing for

3345
01:25:20,875 --> 01:25:22,541
thousands of hours, I would

3346
01:25:22,541 --> 01:25:23,708
say I understand it quite

3347
01:25:23,708 --> 01:25:25,166
well, and I understand the

3348
01:25:25,166 --> 01:25:26,166
investment case quite well

3349
01:25:26,166 --> 01:25:27,666
and what I think more and

3350
01:25:27,666 --> 01:25:28,875
more people are waking up to.

3351
01:25:29,250 --> 01:25:30,333
But what I saw within

3352
01:25:30,333 --> 01:25:31,750
the team at a MP was that

3353
01:25:31,750 --> 01:25:32,500
there was still a lot of

3354
01:25:32,500 --> 01:25:33,833
skeptics, but I thought

3355
01:25:33,833 --> 01:25:34,875
that their skepticism was

3356
01:25:34,875 --> 01:25:37,291
coming from not understanding

3357
01:25:37,375 --> 01:25:38,125
Bitcoin well enough.

3358
01:25:38,291 --> 01:25:39,666
So I went to the CIO and and

3359
01:25:39,666 --> 01:25:40,958
told her basically exactly

3360
01:25:40,958 --> 01:25:41,750
this, and was like, Hey,

3361
01:25:42,500 --> 01:25:43,416
like I think this could be a

3362
01:25:43,416 --> 01:25:45,250
massive opportunity for a MP.

3363
01:25:45,708 --> 01:25:46,375
I've studied this

3364
01:25:46,375 --> 01:25:47,291
for a long time.

3365
01:25:47,958 --> 01:25:49,000
Whenever I tried to talk to

3366
01:25:49,000 --> 01:25:50,416
people about it, I, I find

3367
01:25:50,416 --> 01:25:52,250
that, um, the stuff that they

3368
01:25:52,250 --> 01:25:53,708
say seems like they haven't

3369
01:25:53,916 --> 01:25:55,000
studied it deeply enough,

3370
01:25:55,000 --> 01:25:55,958
or they're still, you know,

3371
01:25:56,375 --> 01:25:59,041
stuck on the fad from 2017.

3372
01:25:59,416 --> 01:26:00,458
How about we just set up.

3373
01:26:00,916 --> 01:26:02,416
A small internal workshop,

3374
01:26:02,416 --> 01:26:03,583
just the investment team.

3375
01:26:04,000 --> 01:26:05,583
I pitch my whole investment

3376
01:26:05,583 --> 01:26:06,625
case for Bitcoin and I

3377
01:26:06,625 --> 01:26:07,916
answer all of the questions

3378
01:26:07,916 --> 01:26:08,791
and criticisms that people

3379
01:26:08,791 --> 01:26:10,250
have, and if they walk

3380
01:26:10,250 --> 01:26:11,291
away from that workshop,

3381
01:26:11,500 --> 01:26:12,583
we'll do a second one.

3382
01:26:12,833 --> 01:26:14,083
If they still have questions,

3383
01:26:14,291 --> 01:26:15,375
let's, let's just get to

3384
01:26:15,375 --> 01:26:16,291
a point where everybody's

3385
01:26:16,291 --> 01:26:17,541
informed enough about Bitcoin

3386
01:26:17,541 --> 01:26:18,458
and then we can all make

3387
01:26:18,458 --> 01:26:19,500
an informed decision about

3388
01:26:19,500 --> 01:26:20,333
whether we wanna embrace

3389
01:26:20,333 --> 01:26:21,250
this together or not.

3390
01:26:21,625 --> 01:26:22,750
Like if you just approach

3391
01:26:22,750 --> 01:26:24,333
it in a way like that,

3392
01:26:24,333 --> 01:26:26,458
where you frame it as all

3393
01:26:26,458 --> 01:26:27,250
that you're doing is you're

3394
01:26:27,250 --> 01:26:28,333
trying to provide something

3395
01:26:28,333 --> 01:26:29,541
for everybody else, but

3396
01:26:29,541 --> 01:26:30,458
you're not asking for

3397
01:26:30,458 --> 01:26:31,833
anything specific in return.

3398
01:26:31,833 --> 01:26:33,166
It's like, you know, it is

3399
01:26:33,166 --> 01:26:34,083
not like, oh, we have to

3400
01:26:34,083 --> 01:26:34,875
invest a bit Bitcoin, so I

3401
01:26:34,875 --> 01:26:35,916
have to run this workshop so

3402
01:26:35,916 --> 01:26:36,916
everybody gets it, and then

3403
01:26:36,916 --> 01:26:38,708
we, we can go forward with it.

3404
01:26:38,708 --> 01:26:39,958
It's like, no, let, let me

3405
01:26:40,541 --> 01:26:41,500
provide something to all

3406
01:26:41,500 --> 01:26:43,208
of you because I think I,

3407
01:26:43,250 --> 01:26:44,041
I have a lot of knowledge

3408
01:26:44,041 --> 01:26:44,916
that I can share so that

3409
01:26:44,916 --> 01:26:46,000
you don't also have to spend

3410
01:26:46,000 --> 01:26:47,916
thousands of hours and then

3411
01:26:48,458 --> 01:26:49,458
come to me with all of your

3412
01:26:49,458 --> 01:26:50,833
criticisms and questions.

3413
01:26:50,875 --> 01:26:51,875
You obviously, you have

3414
01:26:51,875 --> 01:26:53,500
to prepare for the typical

3415
01:26:53,500 --> 01:26:54,750
questions and criticisms, but.

3416
01:26:55,250 --> 01:26:56,250
They're all the same ones.

3417
01:26:56,250 --> 01:26:57,625
Like there's nothing new

3418
01:26:57,625 --> 01:26:58,416
under the sun when it

3419
01:26:58,416 --> 01:26:59,666
comes to Bitcoin criticism.

3420
01:26:59,666 --> 01:27:00,958
So be prepared for those and

3421
01:27:00,958 --> 01:27:01,833
have a really good answer

3422
01:27:01,833 --> 01:27:03,416
to all of them, because what

3423
01:27:03,416 --> 01:27:04,500
I found is that once you're

3424
01:27:04,500 --> 01:27:05,916
able to answer the criticisms

3425
01:27:05,916 --> 01:27:08,166
in a good way, it takes away

3426
01:27:08,166 --> 01:27:09,833
that fear from people and

3427
01:27:09,833 --> 01:27:11,000
people are more open to it.

3428
01:27:11,458 --> 01:27:12,000
And then you can

3429
01:27:12,000 --> 01:27:12,708
take it from there.

3430
01:27:12,708 --> 01:27:13,916
And if you're in a bank,

3431
01:27:14,416 --> 01:27:15,833
um, maybe you don't have

3432
01:27:15,833 --> 01:27:17,041
that investment narrative

3433
01:27:17,041 --> 01:27:18,125
that you can use, but even

3434
01:27:18,125 --> 01:27:19,250
within the bank you can say,

3435
01:27:19,250 --> 01:27:20,791
look, Bitcoin is obviously

3436
01:27:20,791 --> 01:27:21,833
becoming this big thing.

3437
01:27:21,833 --> 01:27:23,500
They are now, I don't know,

3438
01:27:23,500 --> 01:27:25,166
companies that are providing

3439
01:27:25,166 --> 01:27:26,583
things like Bitcoin backed

3440
01:27:26,583 --> 01:27:28,875
loans or offering their

3441
01:27:28,875 --> 01:27:30,083
their customers to, to

3442
01:27:30,125 --> 01:27:32,125
custody Bitcoin directly.

3443
01:27:32,416 --> 01:27:33,833
Like, and, and maybe for

3444
01:27:33,833 --> 01:27:34,916
a bank even like another

3445
01:27:34,916 --> 01:27:36,125
thing to get ready for as,

3446
01:27:36,125 --> 01:27:36,958
as much as we as Bitcoiners

3447
01:27:37,500 --> 01:27:38,458
might not necessarily like

3448
01:27:38,458 --> 01:27:40,250
the ideas, like stable coins

3449
01:27:40,250 --> 01:27:41,500
becoming more of a thing and

3450
01:27:41,500 --> 01:27:42,833
you know, getting your bank.

3451
01:27:43,541 --> 01:27:44,833
Ready for a blockchain

3452
01:27:44,833 --> 01:27:45,875
in crypto environment

3453
01:27:45,875 --> 01:27:47,291
and then having Bitcoin

3454
01:27:47,291 --> 01:27:48,250
be a big part of that.

3455
01:27:48,250 --> 01:27:49,166
Like maybe there's an

3456
01:27:49,166 --> 01:27:50,250
angle that you can use

3457
01:27:50,250 --> 01:27:52,041
there where you frame it

3458
01:27:52,041 --> 01:27:52,958
as something that could be

3459
01:27:52,958 --> 01:27:53,833
really important for the

3460
01:27:53,833 --> 01:27:56,083
bank to be future ready and,

3461
01:27:56,083 --> 01:27:57,291
you know, to be innovative

3462
01:27:57,291 --> 01:27:58,333
and, and forward thinking

3463
01:27:58,333 --> 01:28:00,666
rather than just stuck on

3464
01:28:00,666 --> 01:28:01,875
in the present or the past.

3465
01:28:01,875 --> 01:28:03,583
So I think if you, if you just

3466
01:28:03,583 --> 01:28:05,583
find ways of communicating

3467
01:28:05,750 --> 01:28:07,666
Bitcoin and why people should

3468
01:28:07,666 --> 01:28:09,125
at least listen to you talk

3469
01:28:09,125 --> 01:28:10,416
about Bitcoin as something

3470
01:28:10,416 --> 01:28:12,125
that can only benefit people

3471
01:28:12,458 --> 01:28:13,750
and worst case, you just

3472
01:28:13,750 --> 01:28:14,666
don't do anything with it.

3473
01:28:14,666 --> 01:28:15,166
And that's it.

3474
01:28:15,250 --> 01:28:16,375
If you can frame it in that

3475
01:28:16,375 --> 01:28:18,708
way, um, I don't see why

3476
01:28:18,708 --> 01:28:19,708
people would say no to it.

3477
01:28:19,875 --> 01:28:20,833
And then start small.

3478
01:28:20,833 --> 01:28:22,458
If people like it, you can

3479
01:28:22,458 --> 01:28:24,666
expand out and, um, who

3480
01:28:24,666 --> 01:28:25,791
knows what's gonna happen.

3481
01:28:26,375 --> 01:28:26,750
Yeah.

3482
01:28:26,916 --> 01:28:27,333
Yeah.

3483
01:28:27,333 --> 01:28:28,583
Thank you so much for that.

3484
01:28:28,583 --> 01:28:29,833
And the only thing I would

3485
01:28:29,833 --> 01:28:31,208
add to that is, um, bring

3486
01:28:31,208 --> 01:28:32,625
some snacks because people

3487
01:28:32,625 --> 01:28:33,750
are a lot more open-minded

3488
01:28:33,750 --> 01:28:34,625
when you're feeding them.

3489
01:28:35,708 --> 01:28:36,250
That's a good idea.

3490
01:28:37,125 --> 01:28:37,625
That's a good idea.

3491
01:28:39,000 --> 01:28:40,375
All right, NUS, thank you

3492
01:28:40,375 --> 01:28:41,666
so much for your time.

3493
01:28:42,541 --> 01:28:43,208
Thanks, Anya.

3494
01:28:43,416 --> 01:28:44,083
Really enjoyed it.

3495
01:28:44,833 --> 01:28:45,791
Great, thanks.

3496
01:28:45,791 --> 01:28:47,208
Bye bye.