Brian James Polak

Show Notes

Intro: speaking up for yourself, sharing your wins, jealousy
Let Me Run This By You: Boz explains how she maintains having many close friendships, when Boz called an ex 89 times in 4 hours, What About Bob?
Interview: We talk to Brian James Polak (host of the Subtext Podcast!) about taking a circuitous route to playwriting, Marymount University, Keane, NH, opting for a philosophy major, do you need to be reflected by your parents?, being an RA, when his college guidance counselor told him to go to a trade school, early adulthood financial naïveté, Meisner, improv, Jeremy O. Harris, posthumous playwriting.
FULL TRANSCRIPT (unedited):
1 (8s):
And Jen Bosworth from me this and I'm Gina . We went to theater school together. We survived it, but we didn't quite understand it. 20 years later, we're digging deep talking to our guests about their experiences and trying to make sense of it all. We survived theater school and you will too. Are we famous yet? Hello? How are you today? Well, I'm better than yesterday in terms of my, I really spoke up for myself and with my friend and for podcast listeners. I think we did not record this cause we were just having a meeting, but we did record it, but not on a podcast format.

1 (49s):
Anyway, the point is I had a friend that had sort of tried to, or did set a boundary in a really messy way that I did not receive, but, and then I, I was proud of myself. I just called and I like, I it's interesting as I get older, I don't have a charge on things like I wasn't charged about it. I was like, listen, I mean, I was charged about it when I talked to you because that's what you do when you talk things out. But like I just listed, I totally appreciate that you have this issue and you don't want to hear me talk about certain things. Cause that was the whole thing is that she said, you know, it basically comes down to jealousy and envy and I get those things a hundred percent.

1 (1m 33s):
Believe me, if you listen to the podcast, you know, that like all of my theater school experience and until like maybe four years ago was spent basically living in one state of constant, less than feeling and envy. So I don't, but I'm trying not to do that anymore and I'm working on it. So anyway, I just said like, Hey, like here's the thing. If you need to set a boundary, which it sounds like you do to not hear about certain wins of mine, I just need you to know that that's gonna really affect our relationship. And also I've spent, and this is the core I whittled down. I'm trying lately to whittle down to the core issue. And so, because it just saves a lot of time in conversations.

1 (2m 15s):
Like literally it same with pitching, same with anybody like whittle it down. What are you really saying? And what I'm saying is I spent my whole life not feeling like I wasn't allowed to celebrate my wins, which started in my family of origin. I don't want to do that anymore. It's painful. It'll kill me. It lead to depression, anxiety. I'm not doing it anymore. So I said, if we need to take a break in general from chatting for, well, great. I'd much rather do that. Then, then me censor myself. I'm not, I'm not going to do that with people on my free time. Like, I feel like we have to do that in, in professional settings all the time. Or like as adults in, in the world.

1 (2m 56s):
Right. We can't go around saying, I mean, when you can't and you end up in an institution or a jail, so, so, and, and she was totally receptive and was like, oh yeah, I was shocked just because that's not been my experience with people, not her, but people and oh yeah. And myself. And so we're going to, we're going to give it a shot to, to try it again. And then I just said like, literally, I'm not going to look. I everyone's got to do what they need to do, but like, I, I, I L I am not willing to, yeah. Not share to, to hide from people I'm supposedly supposed to be close with.

1 (3m 37s):
Like, I just, it's just not working. It doesn't work out. If it worked out, I would have continued doing what I did my whole life. Well,

2 (3m 46s):
It works out if you're in a people pleasing relationship where all you can get out of it is the satisfaction in any given moment of telling the person exactly what they want to hear. But of course we've long discovered that that is not a great long-term solution because it leads to all of the aforementioned maladies. So good for you.

1 (4m 6s):
Thank you. And, and, and not only does it lead to, you know, certain inevitable death, really it, once you, once I know the, in my heart, it doesn't work. I can't in good faith, keep people pleasing because I don't have the evidence anymore that it actually does anything other than create depression. Like I have that visceral experience. So I, I, I'm not the kind of person, I don't think many people are sociopath aside or psychopaths that like, can pretend. So I I'm like not going to pretend anymore that I can function that way. It's just, it's just a waste of everybody.

2 (4m 45s):
Yeah. And I'm, I'm about to say the world's least profound thing, but it's been profound for me cause I'm just like really getting to it, which is the thing that you run out of steam for, with the people pleasing is just simply the fact that in the effort to please other people, you, you don't please yourself. And so it'd be like trying to fill your gas tank with like Daisy pedals, you know, because somebody wants you to fill it. And it's like, okay, well maybe it'll get somewhere for awhile. But at the end of the day, you still need gas. Like you still need to meet your own needs. You still need to be in charge of your own. I mean, that's it, you need to meet your own needs.

2 (5m 25s):
And so the, the thing that ends up always underneath the people pleasing is, oh, I haven't met my own needs. And funny thing, the needs didn't disappear just because I wasn't, you know, because I chose not to meet them. That's been my thing recently of like, I don't know how I was previously formulating my lack of willingness to take care of myself. I think I was formulating it as like being heroic in some way or being tough in some way, which it just completely isn't, it's just being afraid to like, engage with me and that's, Hey everybody, it's only you at the end.

2 (6m 9s):
So might as well get cozy with you now and figure out how to meet your needs now. So agree. And she received it well. So like, that's the best possible outcome.

1 (6m 21s):
Yeah. She totally received it. Well, we're going to give it a shot, you know, because I talked to you and then I talked to my other friend and my other friend, it just, everyone talks from where they're coming from. My other friend was like, oh, you need to just cut her off. Like you can't ever talk to her again. She's crazy. She's crazy. And like, you, you can't, you that's enough. And I was like, oh man, I could. But like,

2 (6m 45s):
And I can relate to that too. I mean, I can really, because of what that person is saying is like, it's so hurtful, you know? Right. Cause that that's an instinct. We sometimes have somebody hurt us. So they're dead.

1 (6m 56s):
Yeah. And they're crazy. Like write them off as bonkers and you don't have time for it. Here's the thing. I think it's all a wait and see situation. Like, you know, relationships evolve and change. And, and I don't want to like end the friendship right now. I mean, if this continued, of course, but like I give people a chance, you know? But like, yeah. It's so funny.

2 (7m 22s):
Cute. So funny to me about jealousy. I'm always surprised when, when, when, when it's revealed to me in any way that anybody has any jealousy of,

1 (7m 32s):
Oh my God. I told miles, my husband, the exact same thing, cheetah. I said, it's absurd. That any, cause we, we think so low of ourselves that like, it's absurd that anyone think once anything that I have, I'm like, wait, what? It doesn't make any sense to me.

2 (7m 53s):
It does not compute it. Totally. Doesn't compute Question. I'm not sure I've ever asked you, which is you, you really do have quite a lot of friends. How do you maintain your relationships? I mean, it's a lot of work, isn't it?

1 (8m 19s):
It is a lot of work. I feel that I'm getting better at saying, okay, like, this is what I can give to you. Cause I have a, you know, I have a lot of friends that are going through a really hard stuff. You know, I talk a lot about my friend. His dad is really sick and I just know like, I have to be able to say, this is what I'm available for. It's really hard. And then back away, it is all on me to back away. It's not them. It's not them saying, oh, can you no, no, it's me saying this. How can I be of service? Here's how I'm available to be of service in these times of trouble. And here's how I'm not. And, or I don't even have to set those rules, but I have to know if my, within myself, like how does this feel?

1 (9m 1s):
A go, I'm starting to feel a little bit crazy. I can't, but I feel like my friendships now you see, it was interesting. Growing up. I had zero friends in high school, like real friends, like Ryder dyes, 0 0, 0, 0, 0. I had acquaintances and stuff like that. I've talked a lot about a friend I had on here that I was like her fan, you know? And that started this whole journey to become an actor. Right? But like now the people in my life, my friends who I would consider real friends, I have made a priority to be there authentically and also tell the truth in the relationships.

1 (9m 42s):
So the truth is the only thing that keeps the friendships going. And even if that truth is like, I'm not available. Like I have, I have so much shit going. Like the other day, my friend who was, who was whose dad is sick called me twice during the day. But I did not pick up because I was literally looking for a fucking job and applying for jobs and like I needed to do that. So I felt there was a twinge of like, I gotta pick up the phone like, oh God, she's called twice now. But I said, no, you know what? You gotta

2 (10m 13s):
Do. You gotta take care of you.

1 (10m 15s):
I have to be literally if I want a house, the other thing is having goals. Right? So like really getting centered in what my goals are in the true sense. It's that Doris, my dog has a patch of grass and we have a patch of grass. I talked to the realtor who said, in order to make that happen, you have to do these things, which is bringing a certain amount of money a year. Each of us, my husband went, okay, that's the case. And I got to do certain things. And that means doing them, even if the phone rings and my friend wants to talk.

2 (10m 48s):
Yeah. Yeah. But it's hard. So just like with everything else, as you kind of talking about winnowing away, when you went away at the parts of yourself that are working in that, it just makes your relationships, it just makes, it sounds like it just makes everything come into greater focus for you,

1 (11m 5s):
Greater focus and you don't have to lie. I don't have to lie and say, oh, like I didn't pick up because I was no, I, and I told the truth. I said, Hey, I'm so sorry. I didn't get back to you yesterday. I was literally like knee deep in like focus, land, trying to get this interview for this job or whatever. And that's the truth of what was going on. I wasn't with someone else. I wasn't partying. I wasn't. I told the truth about the situation. And then I called the person at the end of the day and just said like, this was my day. It was fucking intense. Sorry, I didn't pick up the phone, but like I had to do this

2 (11m 35s):
And she loves you. So

1 (11m 36s):
She understands. And that's the thing, right? Gina, if people don't get it, then that's on them. And then maybe they need a different kind of friend. And like, that's just the truth. And it's not, I don't even fault people. Same with, with me, if I'm in the reverse, if I, and then, and then that's why it's good to have more than one friend. Right? Because then you can go to see this in program all the time. Like you need a phone list, you don't need one person. So that if that person's not available, you go to someone else and say, Hey, I'm really having a hard time. You have people in your, in your, in your, in your Rolodex that you can call and say, you know, instead of just having one and that's what I did growing up was like, you would either have one friend or then it became one boy, right?

1 (12m 22s):
One man that I was obsessed with that was going to solve all my problems. It did not work out. It did not work out for me. Like that was misery.

2 (12m 32s):
Yeah. That that's, that I've done that my whole life too. And really what it does is it leads to a lot of burnout because everybody's, if you're putting all of your eggs in one basket and somebody steps on your basket, you have no eggs left. So maybe diversify,

1 (12m 48s):
Diversify, your eggs is basically the thing. But also when I think of, when I think of how I behaved in particular with people, but in particular with men that I wanted to love me, I am so aware of how terrible that must have been for them. And that even in, not even in a like, oh, poor them, like the bind I put them in is intolerable. Like no wonder they were like, you're I can't deal with like, they were like had to set a boundary of like go away because it's intolerable how they couldn't take care of my needs, even if it was their job and which it wasn't.

1 (13m 32s):
So I went to the wrong person to do the wrong job and only had one of them. Oh my God, no, no, I'm not.

2 (13m 39s):
That's that, that hit me. That's so that's so real. I'm just flashing on, you know, these sort of pseudo relationships, things that I was calling relationships that I had in college. And right after where I did that, I made that, you know, the second somebody showed me one tiny iota of interest. I'm like, I'm in love with you. And we're going to spend the rest of our lives together. And you know what happened in 99% of these relationships is they're like, oh cool, you want to have sex with me. Great. And you, and you're not going to ask me for anything else.

2 (14m 19s):
You're, you know, cause in my mind, I'm holding on to all of these expectations, but I'm never ever, ever saying anything about what I need. I'm just sitting over here, praying that you're going to call me, oh my God. Or page me praying that, you know, whatever. And like, to the point that I just had no awareness that this one guy who only ever called me at midnight, I just had no aware. I just thought, oh, well he sleeps late.

1 (14m 53s):
Bless your heart. Like literally bless your heart. You couldn't see it. I, once this is so embarrassing and I'm friends with the guy now, Jonah. So I can say I, once I shit, you not, he wouldn't pick up because he was smart and wanted space. Right. I called him from work. I'm supposed to be working at Nicholas Cage's office. Okay. That's my job I'm paid for. And I, and, and I think he tracked it. How many times I called in for hours? 89.

2 (15m 26s):
Oh my God. Oh. And, and you're probably from times three to 89 years, like you fucker just dialing it over, like yeah. Oh yeah. Oh yeah. Oh

1 (15m 37s):
Nah, hell no sick, sick, sick person, sick, sick person need help.

2 (15m 43s):
Especially when you realize after all these years that, I mean, you, you, you, you now have a real and true relationship with Jonah. He's a person that you love, whatever. But at the time, you know, it was not about Jonah

1 (15m 57s):
And also no person. It's

2 (15m 58s):
About no person. It's about no person. It's just like me, me, me, me. I need you to feed me. <em></em> one of my favorite movies of all time is what about Bob? Yeah. I relate so wholly to Bob, Dr. Leo, Marvin, he says, get me, get me, get me. Well today on the podcast, we are talking to Brian, James Polack. Brian is a playwright and he's the host of American theater magazines to the Subutex podcast.

2 (16m 45s):
And we had a great conversation about New Hampshire and Meisner and improv and circuitous routes to playwriting. So please enjoy our conversation with Brian, James Polack, Whatever, whatever comes out well as a person with highly unpronounceable last name. I mean, unless you know me, I feel your, I feel your pain police.

3 (17m 15s):
I've said that to myself properly then. Cool.

2 (17m 19s):
Yeah. Before my telling you, you knew how to pronounce it.

3 (17m 24s):
I think that was what I wanted it to be.

2 (17m 28s):
Okay. Oh well, that's I, you know the choices I tip my hat to you, sir. Mostly people say police are clueless,

3 (17m 37s):
So I didn't want it to be policed.

2 (17m 39s):
Yeah. Yeah. You and me both. So Brian, Paula, congratulations. You survived theater school. You survived. I play MFA at USC if I'm correct. Okay. But you had a circuitous route.

1 (17m 56s):
I got to say like looking at your website. I, I have so many things to ask you, but we have a little bit of time, so I won't rush into it, but I just want to say your mission statement. You're like art is brilliant. So people should go, go, go to your website and we'll give them their information later. But anyway, yes, you had a circuitous route to where you are now. More so than others, I would say so. But congratulations. And I just want to know, how did you end up to, where are you in Chicago? Right.

3 (18m 27s):
Madison, Wisconsin right now,

2 (18m 29s):
The Hampshire. And you went to undergrad for philosophy, first of all, what made you pay

3 (18m 35s):
Philosophy? Yeah, I literally had no ambitions or interests coming out of high school, going into undergrad. I really only went to undergrad because that's what most of my friends were doing. And it was what my mom said I was doing. So the one smart choice I made was I knew my based on my personality that I would drown if I went to a large college with like thousands and thousands of students. So I, that the, the, the stack that I had included, like the university or Boston university and new Haven, not Yale, but the university of new Haven and colleges that were just like a little bit bigger.

3 (19m 22s):
And when I pulled them all out and looked for small colleges in a city away from New Hampshire, I had one and it was Marymount university in Arlington, Virginia, which is the DC area. And that's why I applied there. No other I'd never visited. That's fantastic. Never went to see it just, just applied. Got in. I also in my mother may be applied to Keene state college and the university of New Hampshire. I got into all three and a, and I was like, I want to go to Marymount. Why? Just because it was away from New Hampshire. And I had no clue what the college was like.

3 (20m 2s):
And my mother said, fine. If you get a financial aid package that will make the cost equivalent to what it would be at, say, university of New Hampshire, then she let me go. And I did, I got the, I got the financial aid package I needed and she let me go. And I saw the school for the first time when I moved into my dorm.

1 (20m 24s):
Holy shit. Yeah.

3 (20m 26s):
So at that point, what am I going to major in still? No idea. I, I

2 (20m 34s):
Wait, that's what they should call philosophy is no, I majored in no idea. I still have no.

3 (20m 39s):
So here's my, here's my reasoning. I, at that age, and for several following was desperate to have an identity of some kind like who am I? And I, I felt very beige and boring. I felt like there was nothing interesting about me because I had no focus. I was not going to become a great athlete. I was essentially nothing. So from my own point of view and I chose philosophy because it sounded interesting. I knew zero about philosophy.

1 (21m 21s):
Nobody knows anything

3 (21m 22s):
About I still don't, but I, it was, there was nothing about the sort of like academic approach to philosophy and studying it and learning it. No clue didn't care was like, I'm a philosophy major and saying those words, I'm a philosophy major is all I needed.

1 (21m 42s):
Yeah. It's interesting. I think you're younger than we are, but I, there is this. Okay, well, I'm just making shit up based on your lovely physical appearance and your snappy website. But I, I, I, there was something about the time period that I, at least I, I grew up in the eighties and the, and the nineties of like this real vague sort of parents aren't that involved. Cause we've talked to so many people of this generation parents weren't involved. I don't think in any of this, other than you have to make sure you can pay this or whatever, other than the financial part, there was no, like figuring out with parents about who we were as kiddos.

1 (22m 29s):
I don't think. And like taking the time, I don't know if you had that experience, but like, it sounds like from what you're saying, your mom was mostly focused on the financial aspect understandably, but like, I'm not sure that's the only decision that should go into a college where you're going to decide who you are as an adult. No,

3 (22m 47s):
No. And I was so in the dark about this school that I received, like the student handbook a month before, like during the summer, before I went to school and I'm thumbing through this handbook and I see that the president of Marymount had an Sr before their name. And the name was like, I couldn't even tell that the gender of the name, but it just had Sr I can't remember their name, but it was like weird name. And there were pictures of nuns. And I was like, why the hell are there nuns in this handbook?

3 (23m 27s):
And what does Sr mean? And my mom's like, you idiot, this is a Catholic college. You're going to a Catholic college. That's Sr mean sister a nun is the president of your college. I was like, are you

2 (23m 44s):
Serious? Both. So while you were getting the degree, were you thinking, okay, I'm just gonna, I'll end up going for my PhD and being a professor.

3 (23m 51s):
Oh, no, no, no. My first two years of undergrad, I didn't even think about the classes I was taking. I studied becoming friends with people From my first two years. And I had like a C average after my sophomore year, I was a TA. I was just a terrible, terrible student. And this connects to why I ended up at grad school years later, which saw that's why I mentioned it. I was a very, very terrible student. I did the minimal amount of work I showed up to class the, the least amount of time possible.

3 (24m 31s):
And all I cared about was making friends with people and being, trying to be happy like that, which was a struggle for me in that age, just being happy. But I just wanted to be friends with people and that's really all I did. But then when I got to be like a junior, senior, I was like, I got to just like, they're going to try a little bit harder. And I did until my final semester where I just mailed it in for the whole semester, but I had no thought about the day after graduation and all of the days that followed that zero until not until like maybe two months after I graduated is when I started to think about what, what's my future now.

2 (25m 16s):
Well, I mean, but like literally, what were you doing when you graduated?

3 (25m 21s):
I got a little bit of money from like FA you know, family members like congrats, here's a check. Right. You know, and I spent the next two months, I moved into where, like I moved into a house with like seven or eight other disgusting, dirty men. And, and I

2 (25m 43s):
Dated

3 (25m 45s):
So gross. This place was so gross. And I spent all my money on rent and living and going to the movies and buying food. And I would say around the end of June, I graduated like the first week of may. And around the end of June, beginning of July, I was like, Hey, I'm running out of money. I, I need to get a job. And so what I did, I made a couple of choices. Some were good. Some were set me on a really bad trajectory for a long time. But I, I was aware that credit card companies give credit cards to college students.

3 (26m 27s):
I don't like the threshold to get accepted for the credit card at that age was very low. So I got two credit cards. So that extended my ability to live for a while because it's credit cards as you know, or a free money.

1 (26m 44s):
Sure.

3 (26m 47s):
Yeah. So I had that free money and I spent that too. And then I started like, it's now like July and I'm like, I need to get, I need to get a job. Like when, how am I going to get a job? I had, I had an internship as an undergrad at the patent and trademark office. So I, I had like some research, she type of experience on my one line resume. And I, part of the, and then the other thing was I was an RA, a resident assistant for two years.

3 (27m 27s):
And so those are my two areas of experience and the degree of philosophy, which is not going to get you a job. It'll get you maybe to law school or to the seminary or some shit like that. So I started looking for jobs and I started in DC. And then I started to expand that circle because I couldn't find anything. And then, and that was applying for jobs. I was applying for tons of jobs. I was going, I was almost caught in like several, like pyramid schemes, multilevel marketing things like, yeah, you're signed up for this interview. Brian, come to this meeting, you show up, there's like 40 people sitting in a prison.

3 (28m 11s):
And I was like, this doesn't seem right.

1 (28m 15s):
You know, side note, side note, my husband got involved with those and he's 54, like just a couple of years ago. Like, I'm like, what are you doing? He's like, it's an interview. I'm like, dude, this is a zoom mark. Multi-level marketing fucking presentation. This is Glen Gary, Glen Ross. And he had to, and then he like logged out really fast. Anyway,

2 (28m 36s):
She did not know that MLMs advertised, just like as a job job. That's yeah. So sinister

3 (28m 45s):
A hundred percent.

2 (28m 47s):
So let me stop you for a second. Were any of the adults in your life, reflecting back to you, what you were doing saying to you, like you're hoping to parlay this RA thing into a career or, I mean, was anybody saying to, I mean, okay, so you're a playwright. You that's, that's, that's the, that's the PS to the story is that you're a player right now and you, and you have your own podcast, but who, who was reflecting back to you? Like what you're good at and what you might want to pursue? Or was it more like what boss and I had, which is nobody and saying anything to you and you were just expected to cover your own rent.

3 (29m 27s):
Oh, good. Yeah. I don't remember ever having a conversation with any adult in my life about what I'm good at and what I could and what I could do. As a matter of fact, I had a guidance counselor in school. And during that period of time, when they're there guidance counseling students about what to do after high school, telling me to go into the trades to work, to get, to get a job working on cars or, or something like that, because I wasn't college material. And I was so offended by this person. I can't even remember their name, but if I could remember this guidance counselor's name, I would be, I would be like shouting it out because they, they were, I thought this was the worst advice ever.

3 (30m 14s):
And I was like, by the time when I got accepted to the three colleges I applied to and granted, they weren't like Ivy league schools, but still this person with no, that isn't college material got accepted to three schools. I was like, you, like I got in. And I was sure to go to the office and be like, by the way, just wanted to let you know. I applied to three schools and got into all of them. And I'm, I I'm going, I'm moving to Washington DC. So see you later. Good for you. But I had my family and I even back then my mom, my mom divorced my biological father when I was a remarried. My stepfather when I was 11, had two kids with him when I was like 13 and 15 is when my little sisters were born.

3 (31m 2s):
So they occupied a significant amount of focus from my, from my parents. I had an older sister, Karen who, two years older than me. She was ahead of me in this whole go to college, start a life kind of thing. She was just, she was a very good student, very focused, knew what she wanted to do. And I think my, my, my mother was just like, I've got kids. I need to focus on because by the time I was going to college, they were three and eight or there were, there were like three at five or something like that or whatever. So she had no bandwidth and that's just not really her personality type.

3 (31m 44s):
And so there was a part of me that wanted to be funny and wanted to be involved in theater, but what happened? So in, in, in undergrad, I had, there were people in school that were like putting on plays, like on their own. There wasn't a theater department in undergrad. If there was, I probably would've, I probably would've found it. I can't be sure, but I have a feeling I would have found it if there was like a theater department of theater classes and that kind of stuff. But I, but I remember a moment when somebody I knew on campus wrote a one-act play and asked me to be a tree in it.

3 (32m 28s):
Fantastic. And I was like, that sounds like fun. So I did that and I was like, this is kind of fun. And then every year the school produces a and they were producing little shop of horrors. And I was very involved in campus activities. My main responsibility was like booking bands to come perform. I really liked doing that, but I was kind of like, you know, I was an RA and I was student activity nerd. So I got roped into auditioning for little shop of horrors. And I got cast as if you know the play.

3 (33m 13s):
Yeah. Mush Nick, the owner of the flower shop, who was the old man. And I have a feeling mate, the main reason I got cast as much Nick was because his songs were just easier to sing. The funny thing is, I, you know, w you were commenting on my age earlier, I look a little bit younger than I am. And back then I looked, looked younger than I was so, and you're playing an old, I had long hair, like I had long hair pulled back in a pony tail.

3 (33m 54s):
And I had to play this old, this old man. And they aged me with makeup and putting gray in my long hair, long, luxurious curly hair. Right. And it was a bad experience. I'll have to say because of the pro really, because of the process, but I very much enjoyed it. And, but it wasn't the thing I was going to continue doing. So I'll stop there.

2 (34m 21s):
Wait, what was bad about it? Yeah.

3 (34m 22s):
Well, if it's just like interpersonal dynamics, like the cast was great. I loved everybody I worked with in the cast, but it was sort of like the dynamic with the director and then the main administrator on campus who was responsible for, for hiring the director and making sure the show goes on. It was kind of a nightmare. Like the director was there. I remember one day the director, sorry, there's this flood? The director canceled a rehearsal one, one night because of an illness and was like, his daughter was ill or something. And the administrator from campus refused to let us have the night off.

3 (35m 3s):
So he came in and try and started directing. And I didn't have all that experience. We now know the dynamics of the rehearsal room. Right. And, and, and all of that, I didn't know. I wasn't, I didn't have that experience yet because this was my, really my first experience. But my instinct was the director's been telling us what to do. And you, you have not been in this room and don't know what he's been telling us. So why are you kind of in here, you surfing this, it doesn't seem right. So I, I rebelled against it. I left rehearsal and to kind of like, Ooh, left a bad taste in my mouth about

1 (35m 45s):
Loved it. You love the experiences because of the other people, like the people in your house.

3 (35m 49s):
Oh, two left for sure. 100%. Yeah. I loved, I loved being with that group.

1 (35m 55s):
So would you say you have like a, like, there's a rebel, like part of you, like a big rebel part of you? Because like, my ass would have been like, well, just sit here and be quiet, like eight, okay. At an adult is doing bad things. I'll just sit and be quiet. You must have something in you. That was like a Nokia.

3 (36m 10s):
Yeah. And this really came about at this, in this, you know, 18 to 22 age range when I'm an undergrad, this sort of like questioning of authority. I became very rebellious and I just didn't trust authority who were, I didn't trust people, giving instructions without context. You can't tell me what to do. I need to know why. And I need to, I need to understand why you're telling me what to do. And when you're, when that's not happening, I don't trust you.

1 (36m 42s):
Huh. Interesting. I, I think that's interesting. And I also, it ties into, and we don't have to talk about this, but like you said, that you made some bad life choices and I, I love bad life choices, bad life choices. We made. So many of her, I made so many, and it's interesting that you brought it up that took you down a bad path. Do you want to, do you want to just say any more about,

3 (37m 6s):
Yeah. I mean, I mean, a lot of it started with finances. I, because as I mentioned before, I didn't have, I didn't have like that adult person. I, I wasn't trained with his finances, you know? So I just spent naively and got myself into debt right away. And, and, and even later in, later in my twenties, when I was getting jobs that paid more money, I spent everything I earned because my focus was on living life. So every time I had another $500 in my account, I was like, oh, that's a flight to San Francisco for a long weekend to see friends.

3 (37m 49s):
I pick, I was always picking up bills at dinner for my friends, just because I could, I was just like, I was like, I have $300 in my savings account, so sure. I can afford this $85 meal for everybody. So, so a lot of my bad choices were around that, but the other, other bad choices were like, I got this job as a research assistant in DC. And it was my first sort of real ish job. And I enjoyed it. And I was there for a little over a year. And I asked for a raise because the way my job worked, like I had to invoice the work I was doing.

3 (38m 30s):
And I knew I was, I was invoicing my entire year salary every week. Oh. And my salary was really low. So I went to, I went to my, my boss and I was just like, I want, I want a pay raise. And he was like, how much do you want? I said, $6,000 a year more. And he was like, no way, that's out of the question. I can give you $1,500 a year more. And I was like, listen, I know how much the books are not secret here. Like, I know how much we're earning. I know how much I'm personally earning for the, for the, his company. And he said, he said, he goes, it seems, Brent, Brent said, you will never make the amount of money doing this work.

3 (39m 15s):
And I said, in that moment, without any forethought, hadn't been thinking about it. I said, I quit and I'm moving to Boston. But in this, in this time period, before I sent that a key moment of my life that's connects me to theater directly for the first time was I got this research assistant job and I started it and I was working it for a few weeks. I was going to work in the morning, coming home at night, going to work in the morning and coming home at night, hanging out with my friends on the weekends, repeating over and over again. And I did this for a few weeks and I was just like, wait, is this life is 45 years of this rinse.

3 (39m 59s):
And repeat, I, I can't do that. Like, like, this is terrible. So I had this, I had this existential crisis and I said, I need to do something. And the other part of it was, do I know everybody I'm ever going to know, like, do I, am I only going to date the people that, how do I meet other people? How do like, how do like, is this the entirety of my world, this job in a series of jobs, nine to five. And then here are my 20 friends for the rest of my life. Like no shade, no shade to my friends, love them, but I just had some kind of instinct for more.

3 (40m 43s):
So I thought about that experience in undergrad and being in a play. And I thought about my friends in high school and my friend Corey. And I was like, you know what? I think I'm going to take an acting class. I think that would be fun. And that would meet new people because I don't know anybody that involved in this world at all. So I took an acting class and it was a Meisner class, which was jumping into the deep end. But I was amongst a group of people who like, it was like, I don't remember how long the class was, but 10 weeks. And then we would re up for another 10 weeks and the group kind of stayed together.

3 (41m 25s):
So here I am with a group now, and we're learning this acting together. And I kind of, I never understood Meisner, but I realized I had an aptitude for what we were doing. So when I, when I drew the line on the stand said, I'm moving to Boston. The things that I were, the things I would, I was, I was losing were my friends in DC and this acting class. But I was like, it's a sacrifice, it's a sacrifice I'm going to make, because I just feel inside that I need this. And, and so I said to my acting teacher, I said, do you know, do you happen to know anybody in Boston that teaches what you teach?

3 (42m 11s):
And I can just sort of pick up what we're doing. And he said, Nope, I do not. But what you should do is take improv. And that piece of advice that I took changed the trajectory of my life and to the, to the, to where I am right now as a, as a.

1 (42m 35s):
And so what do you think that that teacher saw? Why improv for you? Like why that, why not say, Hey, you should go to, you know, Boston university for acting.

3 (42m 47s):
I have no idea. I, I had, I didn't have the ability to see myself and I still, I never did have the ability to see myself as an actor. I wasn't aware of what improv was. I think maybe vaguely. I think, I think the British version of whose line is it anyway, entered my psyche at some point. So I had a very small idea of what the concept of improv was, but I didn't really know what he saw no clue, but you know, a couple months later I was living in Boston and I was looking for improv classes and I found an improv theater that was just starting a school.

3 (43m 35s):
So there were, they were booking their very first class ever. And I signed up and got in and worked through the six, whatever levels of this improv thing. And when it was done, the theater was auditioning for essentially like a B team. Like they had their main stage group. They wanted a second group to do touring shows to do off night performances. And I auditioned for it and got in. So, so that's, I mean, the advice to go seek out improv and taking that advice changed my life.

3 (44m 16s):
Getting cast in this improv group that was getting cast and starting to perform is what really changed the trajectory.

2 (44m 28s):
I have a question for the, both of you. Do you guys think that this, do you think there's any connection between not having adults reflecting back to you who you are or not enough? And these existential crises? I mean, what I'm hearing you say is your whole life has been an improv because you've had to just sort of like figure it out literally in the moment, literally the moment occurs to you, which may be why you were drawn, you know, to, to improv, but like, what do you guys think about this connection between, I don't know that if you had had a very directed experience in your childhood, I don't know if you would have gotten to the place of, is this all there is, is this, is this, you know what I mean?

2 (45m 23s):
Because if people who get put on a path by their they're the adults in their lives often don't really question,

1 (45m 32s):
Right? Yeah. I mean, I think you're right. I think there's something about our generation or that, that not having. Right. So I definitely feel like I had to figure it out on my own, all of it, every single thing, and that led to crises, but also it led to opportunity. Right? So like maybe for you, Brian, it's like, we didn't have a lot of direction. So it was internally directed. Right. We were internally directed and we acted in the moment and it made for some huge mistakes for me anyway, but also some huge freaking opportunities. Right. So like going to Boston, I mean, that is like, whoa, like intense, like, you didn't know you were how old

3 (46m 12s):
23. I was 23 turning 24.

1 (46m 17s):
Exactly. When I went to LA, I didn't know what was happening. I was like, I'll just go to Los Angeles. That'd be great. Yeah.

2 (46m 23s):
Yeah. You just bump along to the next thing and the next thing, but so then how did you get from improv to the MFS?

3 (46m 29s):
Yeah. So you've described my path. My life path is sir crew, sir. God, I can't say that.

1 (46m 38s):
So cute. Okay. It's like a charcuterie board to say

3 (46m 43s):
My life has been a charcuterie board of multiple cheeses. So, so it's still circuitous to get from, from, from that point a, to the point of grad school. But I, so I did this improv for two years and what I learned in that two year period was I loved being with the group. I love traveling for, for shows. I love performing on our off nights during the week. I love these just became my, my group of close, close friends, loved them, loved them all to this day. And I'm still friends with some of them.

3 (47m 24s):
And, but what I also learned was that my Achilles heel of inability sing was coming back to haunt me because music, musical improv and song parodies were a big part of what this improv theater was focused on. And that just wasn't my skillset. My skillset really was as a supporting player. I was I'm. I was very, at the time I was very, very good at supporting scenes. I was very good at being like glue for the friend cluster, but I just was like, I was just not a great improv actor.

3 (48m 7s):
You know, like I could not take the stage. I couldn't command the stage and be funny and entertain people. But if you two were doing a scene together and I could watch that scene be happening and recognize it needs an, it needs an influx of energy of some sort. I could bring that, you know, and I could help the scene that you're creating become better. And that that's not, that's a skillset that plenty of people have. Right? So I wasn't like an in demand type of person. So after two years, the hire, I, I saw that all of my friends were periodically being called up to the main stage to fill in.

3 (48m 47s):
Some of them were being promoted to full-time main stage and other people were joining the second group. And I was one of the original members and I was the only original member never called up. And I knew I was, I saw what that meant about two years in the artistic directors of the theater told us that everybody had to re audition for their role. Oh shit. I knew what that meant. So one of my bad, one of my sort of rash decisions that I talked about I talked about is the next rehearsal.

3 (49m 28s):
After learning that I just walked into rehearsal and quit and I walked away from it because I could not. I've recognized. Now the reason is I couldn't stomach being faced with being, and I, I was, I was developing a self-awareness like, I'm aware of who I am as a performer. I recognize that I'm probably not going to make it. So why go through this process, which is going to be horrible, it's going to be like depressing. So I walked away and, and that was the end of my, those the end of my improv life.

3 (50m 11s):
But I, so I was very sad and I missed being part of a group. So not, you love you a

1 (50m 18s):
Group, you love a group. You're a

3 (50m 20s):
Group kind. I am so happy collaborating with people. Like that's where I am at my absolute happiest. My like my goal, every time I'm writing something, I'm like, I got, I want to be around that goddamn table. Like, all I think about is the table being around the table with other people, working on a play like that is everything to me,

2 (50m 46s):
Community unit's unity. And yet you did pick a pretty isolated, I mean, you know, obviously if you're, if you're a ver obviously the goal is to be a playwright who's always being produced and that where you're always going to the theater where they're producing your play and you're available to continue working on it. But that

3 (51m 9s):
I became a playwright who has never produced. So it's like, it's like so, so sad. But the reason I ended up as a playwright was after the improv experience, not long after I left that left the improv people that I met doing improv or starting a theater company, cast me in a play. So it was like, now I'm like studying and now I'm performing a play. And now I'm helping run a theater company and, and producing theater and part of the acting ensemble of the theater company. And, and so that was like the next few years of my life, I was doing this.

3 (51m 54s):
And so I didn't really have the experience of auditioning and having the life of an actor. It was like, I was cast. I was just, but like the self-awareness that I talked about earlier doing improv came back to haunt me again. I never, because I never studied theater. I never felt comfortable performing. I was always in my head. I was never inside the character. And there was, we were, I was performing in a, a two hander titled it's called the sugar plum and lights open on me, lights go down on me and the other. So I'm like onstage from lights up to the lights down.

3 (52m 37s):
And I remember performing one day and it was like one of those things where it's running for three or four weeks, you know, in a small black box theater. But I remember performing and one particular night, I'm doing my going over here and picking up the newspaper and I'm doing all my blocking. I'm reciting my lines. And then there's a track in my head going, what the hell does this play mean? Why are you doing this? Why this newspaper, why are you saying these lines? I had

2 (53m 9s):
Philosophy. Is that philosophy?

3 (53m 11s):
I don't know if it's, I think it was actually more literal. Like I did not understand the story. What like who my character was. I knew I understood nothing. And it, me so much anxiety performing. And I did a couple more, a couple more plays. And I really enjoyed being part of this company. And I would have kept going forever, but people start to age. The two founders who were married together were having a child and they moved to Ohio. I took over being the artistic director for a minute.

3 (53m 54s):
And in this time period, I started to write because I knew that for a couple of reasons, one, I just knew that acting wasn't the thing. And I still had that emptiness I needed to fill, and I still want it to be part of this art form that I was starting to love. But I also, at the time met somebody who was a writer and I started to meet writers for the first time. And through, through them, sort of started to understand what craft was like. I met a lot of very serious writers and writers who were making their living either as writers or as writers slash teachers.

3 (54m 35s):
And, and it was like inspiring having conversations with them and just, and just the concept of craft just really made sense to me. So I decided, I think writing is the thing I want to do. And I started to do it. And when I started to do it, I'm now at this point in my 30, 31 32, I mean, in my early thirties. And, and I'm like, I think this is the thing. This might be the thing light bulbs are going off, you know, and I'd never would have gotten there, had it, had I not started at improv, gotten into theater and sort of, because the reason I was writing plays is because I was performing plates.

3 (55m 21s):
Like, you know, and I wasn't a reader. I wasn't like reading books and short stories and poems. So that wasn't what was motivating me or what I was inspired to write.

2 (55m 31s):
Wow, well, I'm here. So go ahead. No, no, no, no. What I am also hearing you talk about a lot is just, you're in a constant quest for meaning, which, you know, is the thing that brings a lot of people to writing, not just playwriting, but now that you have settled on playwright, do you find the meaning in it? Do you find, like, I feel like when you really find your avocation, whether or not it's your vocation, what you feel is I've, I've plugged in, like I've been floating in the miasma and now I've now I've attached and this is my organism.

2 (56m 14s):
Now, do you, do you have that feeling?

3 (56m 17s):
Yeah, so, you know, I started writing, then it took me several years to get in, to get to grad school degree and then have the postgrad school experience and through the ups and downs, the constant rejections and all of that. I mean, they all matter to me. Like, I, I'm always sad when I get rejected, but I'm at the point now where nothing's pushing me off this, the thing that I, that I've repeated over and over again is that I will likely die under a pile of unproduced plays. And I'm accepting of that. You know?

3 (56m 57s):
So at first, when I first said that out loud, it was like, I was bemoaning the state of my playwriting career and now it's fine, you know, because I, I love doing it and I love trying to be better and trying to be a, become a better writer. And I love connecting with people through writing and theater, but I, I probably going to continue doing it regardless of the, of how the theater industry responds to my work. I'll probably continue doing it until I'm literally incapable of doing it anymore, like physically and mentally.

2 (57m 41s):
So you're the person who is Mo who's most closely connected with what we're doing here, because you have a podcast, you interview playwrights. What is, would you say kind of a key difference between playwrights and actors in terms of their training? Oh,

3 (57m 58s):
Mm. I think that the playwright experience is, is much, it seems much more independent and isolated than the actor's experience because as I am understanding the actor, I not an actor, I didn't go through a theater school as an actor, but the way I'm understanding it is there's very much a more of a cohort mentality where you're experiencing the traumas together. Like you're having your own independent experience, but you're in this group. And it's, it's, the intensity is, is shared in a way that with playwrights, the intensity is not as shared.

2 (58m 46s):
It's not. So you don't have the same thing in, in a playgroup program where you feel like, oh, we all, you know, went through this battle together.

3 (58m 55s):
Yeah. I mean, I, I, I definitely felt by the end of my, my program was three years at USC and I had a cohort of three. And by the end of that three year program, because of the, because of specific things that went on during our three years, I really felt like I went through a battle with my cohort and we survived in the end. Like there was this feeling of togetherness and just sort of journey, but it was, and I can't speak for the other two of my cohort, but I, I can only assume it w if you talked to either of them, they would have a lot of different things to say about the experience, you know,

1 (59m 37s):
Did you start out with many more or, or was it always just the,

3 (59m 41s):
Yeah, the program by design is a cohort of three for each year. So there's nine people. There's nine playwrights in the program at any given time.

2 (59m 51s):
Wow. Did you interact with the acting?

3 (59m 55s):
Oh, yes. Definitely. There was a, I think in my first year, I think in my first year in my, and my second year, we had shared classes. So I, so I think in my first year, first semester I had a shared class with the first first year act. So it was like the first year and first year was together in the text analysis class. And then I think that same year I had a class the first year is plus second year actors in another sort of text analysis class. And then in the second year I had a class with, I can't remember what year actor program.

3 (1h 0m 36s):
It was whichever, yeah. I can't remember if the first or second or third year actors, but we had another class that was about generative work about collaboration and creating work together. So, yeah. So over the course of three years, I had three classes with them and the program not being particularly large, you know, you're always around each other, you know? And when you are trying to do put together like a quick, first reading of a script before you submit it for something, you know, those MFA actors would be the ones who you'd reach out to first.

2 (1h 1m 13s):
Yeah. I'll cut this part out, but do you, did you go there in the, what year did you go? What years did you go?

3 (1h 1m 22s):
I graduated in 2014 in may of 2014, started it. So I started in the fall of 2011.

2 (1h 1m 31s):
Okay. Oh, so your wait. So does that mean you're much younger than us or did you have a break? Okay, so you, that, so you did the, because you did the circuitous route?

3 (1h 1m 41s):
I was third. I think I was 37 when I started, I was the person in the program and it really led to a lot of conflict, I think.

1 (1h 1m 55s):
Yeah. Wow.

3 (1h 1m 58s):
Well, I think, you know, going back to some things I said in the, in the first part of this, that I was not a good student when I was an undergrad and that experience of being a terrible student and not being focused or interested in anything academic or professional, that was, I carried that with me through all the years, graduating undergrad in, through my twenties, into my thirties. And when I found playwriting as like the thing I really cared about and I've made the decision, I wanted to try to go to grad school. I was very, very serious about it. I wanted to get a 4.0, I wanted to be present in every single class.

3 (1h 2m 41s):
I wanted to milk the experience for everything it was worth because I, I was also working in theater at this time. So I kind of had like a 360 degree view of what this experience will lead to and not lead to and could potentially be in there. And I realized there were no promises made with an MFA and that I'm not getting an MFA because it's going to give me X, Y, and Z. I went to get my MFA because I wanted to be in school. I wanted to study this. I wanted to be in the classroom. I wanted to have discussions with the, with the, you know, with my classmates and my teachers. And I wanted this educational experience and that's the energy I brought in.

3 (1h 3m 24s):
And I also had, you know, all of this life experience and professional work experience in the theater. So I brought all of this with me and it, I think, and again, this is from my own perspective. If you talked to others in my program, you, you might get a completely different answer. But from my perspective, especially in the first half of the three years, I had an intensity that I think made it hard to be in class with me for some folks, because you know, every, everybody is very different. People are introverted. People are extroverted, people behave in classrooms and in engage in the work in very different ways.

3 (1h 4m 9s):
And for me, particularly at the very beginning, I was so excited to be in grad school. I was just so intense about doing the work. And if you weren't as serious as I was, I had a problem with you.

1 (1h 4m 25s):
That's so interesting because that's exactly what we're S we hear from actors. Same thing that go into acting conservatories. And the rest of us are like drinking. Mickey's big mouth, forties on the sidewalk. And they're like actually trying to act and like into it. And it said the phase, you mean? And they're like, even, even people that are like serious business actors and the rest of us are trying to just figure it out. I could see how it would be really fucking annoying to be like around people who maybe don't have their shit together. Right. Yeah.

3 (1h 5m 1s):
I mean, I have a lot of conflict with one with, and I, I don't think this is, I mean, cause it's really more a reflection on me and my own behavior than on them. But Jessie who was in my cohort, he was much closer to having completed undergrad. I don't think he went straight from undergraduate to grad school, but there wasn't a lot of time that passed from undergrad to grad school for him. So our age difference was huge. And I, at the very, very first semester, I got so irritated with him and I called, like, I pulled him aside and I called him out and good for you really?

3 (1h 5m 43s):
But here's the other in the moment I was like, good for me. And I was doing what I felt like I needed to do. And I thought I was giving a gift to, to Jesse, but in

1 (1h 5m 59s):
Exactly

3 (1h 5m 59s):
What you're talking in retrospect who gives a shit, it's none of my business, everybody's on their own journey. Let anyone do what they want to do to get through it. Like, like,

1 (1h 6m 14s):
Okay, I guess. Yeah. And I guess what I say good for you is the fact that you didn't, you did that instead of passive aggressively act it out shit during class, which is what the rest of us would have done. I mean, I would have done, it said that you took the personal side, like look great. Granted. It was probably, you know, whatever, but I'm glad you did it instead of like, we're just an asshole in class. Cause that's what most of us do.

3 (1h 6m 40s):
Yeah. Well, I try, you know, I tried not to be in who, and I'm not the one to say whether I was an asshole in class or not, because I, I could have been, I could have lacked the awareness to know whether or not from somebody else's perspective. I wasn't asshole, but I really tried not to be. I tried to just be in charge of my experience as much as I possibly can because ultimately what I came around to by the end was that just to use Jessie as an example, again, he's a good person, but like that's the most important thing for me. Like, and like, he's not a bad person. He's a good, he's a good person.

3 (1h 7m 20s):
And that's why I, I, in retrospect, I come around to like, what is it, my business, how somebody else decides to, you know, participate in class or not?

1 (1h 7m 36s):
Well, that's an interesting, it's interesting because like I do, it leads me to the question of like mentorship and like having older people in our lives and younger, but then Gino had brought up the point of having like a mentor that's younger than you do new Gina. So I think we need mentors that are younger than us and mentors that are older than us. And he maybe was a mentor, like a spiritual guru in some way for you because he pushed your buttons and shit like that. But I wonder if we asked Jesse what he thought, if it, cause people have pulled, put someone pulled me aside on set once when I was young on ER and said, what the fuck are you actually doing? You're like behaving poorly. And I was mortified and also hated their guts.

1 (1h 8m 16s):
But really they saved me later. I'm just saying, I'm not saying you do that for Jesse, but you could have. And I was like, oh, it was clunky the way they did it. My feelings were hurt. They also caused me to not lose jobs in the future. Just FYI, just throwing it out there anyway. So, so yeah, I just, so you, you, here's my question about USC, just like a technical question, like when you applied to this program, this, this playwriting program, did you, did they, is it one of those things where they pay for your thing or you have to pay? Or how does it,

3 (1h 8m 46s):
Yeah, that's a good question. It's a little, it's a little bit of both. So when I, so I was, I was in sort of entrenched in Los Angeles by the time I decided to go to LA. So going to another, go into S like applying to grad schools around the country, wasn't really an option for me. I kind of ended up just zeroing in, on USC for several reasons. One a year earlier, I had met Luis Alfaro by producing one of his plays at Boston court, where I was working. And I, I was only a couple of years into being a playwrights. When I watched this, you know, experience with him having a play world premiere and the way he interacted with staff and actors and the entire production crew was, was really sort of like motivating to me to, to, to want to be like very generous person, very warm, open.

3 (1h 9m 43s):
The key will listen to anything, you know, and he just, he had a way of dealing with people that I read myered and I learned that he taught at USC and it started to put this idea in my head that I maybe I want to go to grad school because I wasn't particularly interested in film and television, which is what brought me to LA in the first place. So I, and I was also, you know, in a marriage at the time. So I wasn't the only person with an opinion on the matter, but I looked at all of the area programs, UCLA, Cal arts. And I even sort of looked into San Diego a little bit because they have such a great reputation, but with the parameters of not moving anywhere, staying, you know, where, where I'm living and I need to, I needed to keep my full-time job, which was a humongous factor.

3 (1h 10m 44s):
None of these programs were really built to accommodate people working full time. So I kind of kept that to myself for a bit, but I just settled on USC. And so I'm like, I'm going all in on USC, USC because of its physical location. And that Luis was taught was teaching there. And the money situation to, to actually get to the answer to your question was pretty good, like much better than like Cal arts, for example, which is like, I don't think any money came with that program. It was like all, all loans and cash to it, to pay for that education. And, and I'm like, I'm not really willing to do that.

3 (1h 11m 28s):
So USC, you, you for two years, and I'm not sure what it is today, but back when I went to the, you teach, you're a TA for two years in your second and third year, and the amount of money that you earn as a TA, essentially offsets the costs of the program. And in the first,

1 (1h 11m 54s):
What did you TA what did you theater

3 (1h 11m 57s):
Theater history classes. So like your TA saying essentially the first four classes in a series of theater, history classes for incoming undergrads in the, in the theater program. So you're teaching the Greeks, you're teaching, you know, all the, all the old ship. So that's kind of the money situation. I however, still took out loans because yeah, because you need money. So I did it kind of like I was not, I wasn't particularly smart about it.

3 (1h 12m 37s):
I maintained a full-time job 40 hours a week throughout the three years, including when I was teaching.

1 (1h 12m 47s):
Were you on crack cocaine

3 (1h 12m 49s):
At the time? At the time did not consume any alcohol did not do any drugs. I was just, I don't know, adrenaline. And you were designed to fire and it was terrible. It was, it was so unhealthy. It was literally 5:00 AM go do homework and writing, et cetera. And depending on the class schedule, either go to day job or go to class, come back, go to day job, maybe go to a night class, depending again, depending on the schedule. And then my job was very, very generous with, with my schedule.

3 (1h 13m 34s):
And I lived very close to work, which was, which was helpful. They allowed me to stretch my schedule, however I could seven days a week. So I really was when class was in session, when we were in semester, I was working seven days a week because I was making up work hours on Saturdays and Sundays, which meant I didn't do a lot, especially in the first, in the first year, a lot of bonding, I didn't do a lot of like extra activities on campus because I had to JTFO get to work.

1 (1h 14m 10s):
Yeah.

2 (1h 14m 13s):
Yeah. I bet that's. I mean, I, I'm sorry, but I'll let you say what you're gonna say in a second, but I think that might've had something to do with why you might've been somewhat perceived if you were as a curmudgeon or whatever, because that you, you just knew so precisely what the value of the education was. And also because literally your time was so precious, wherever you were chosen, choosing to put your energy at any given moment, literally meant like money for you. And that is just a classic thing about people who are coming to theater school when they're young and not a carer, not just really not a sense of what it actually means to me to make it in the business versus people that are older.

2 (1h 14m 57s):
So pause, go ahead. What are

1 (1h 14m 59s):
No, that's exactly right on what I was going to say in terms of, like, I thought people, because I was young and ridiculous thought people were being rude and really those people were actually hustling to live. Some of them had kids, some of them had, and I think there's a misunderstanding that like, if you don't bond, if you're not part of the team, if you're that you're just a jerk, but really it's like these people have fucking lives, you know? And so I think that's some of the weirdness of undergrad and grad, you know, like being, you know, it's just, everyone comes into, like you said, in different places. And it's just, I was so self-absorbed, I was so self-absorbed, there were people that were just like, literally like going to be evicted because they couldn't pay their rent.

1 (1h 15m 44s):
You know what I mean?

2 (1h 15m 46s):
So did you, how did it work with the curriculum? Did you, I mean, the practical part, did you get to produce your players? Did you workshop scenes? How did that work

3 (1h 15m 58s):
As part of the program in your second year, you have like a fully produced workshop that is essentially with the undergrad theater students. So you're working with undergrad actors and undergrad designers and stage managers, et cetera, with, with a professional director from outside school. And that's because I have a friend ahead of me in the program who, when I was a first year, she was a third year. So I already knew a lot about, about the program and the dynamics of it and what to expect. So I knew that the second year was like, that really is your, like your big production that you, that happens for you in the three years.

3 (1h 16m 48s):
And, and I've, I already, at this point had like a, an opinion and feelings about how younger actors are thrust into positions that are way outside of their demographic, particularly with age. And I didn't wanna, I didn't want to have that experience. So I ended up writing a play for age appropriate actors, and I didn't use a play that I was already sort of writing for our class or like potentially my thesis, because I was because I think some in some ways, because I was older, I was thinking about characters who were older too. So I didn't want to have, middle-aged like a cast of middle-age folks and, and I wanted to get something out to be experienced and I wanted them to get something out of the experience.

3 (1h 17m 36s):
So I wrote a play about teenagers to give them characters that they could really sink their teeth into

2 (1h 17m 46s):
What I'm to literally what Eric goes in did. He was, yeah. When he was getting his degree,

1 (1h 17m 51s):
The same thing. And also, you know, what I, the word that keeps coming to mind for you is strategic. The shit was strategic. Like it, I think that's comes with age and experience and like hard knocks is we learn, at least I'll speak for myself, how to be more strategic instead of just throwing shit around and seeing what sticks bumbling around. So you were a more strategic student. So how does your play go with the team?

3 (1h 18m 22s):
I, again, depends on who you ask the best experience. I loved my cast. I still love them today. I love my director still. Like we maintained a friendship after this was all over. I just, I just loved the experience so much. It was a play about runaway teenagers and them finding like the found family that is created when they are out in the streets, trying, trying to survive. And it was the best, best experience so much. I, I would, what's it called? What's it called?

3 (1h 19m 2s):
It's called, what is it called now? It was called tales from tent city when I did it. Oh. And I did it back then. And now there's sort of like what sounds like a bit of an esoteric title, but it's now called dance and crawl and sing and fall in the title. The title comes from in the play. It's a play with songs. So there are like, I remember like maybe like seven songs. One of the characters is like a busker. And so that's the title now is a lyric from one of the songs in the play. So yeah, I love it.

3 (1h 19m 44s):
And I ended up having some, a side note. I ended up having the opportunity to workshop it with other college age students over the years at two other colleges. And that's really just sort of super fulfilling. And I really enjoyed that.

2 (1h 19m 60s):
The thing that's sticking out to me about the first part of our conversation was this. You were talking about finding acceptance that you were going to be buried under a pile of your unproduced plays. Now you have published plays, just not produced plays if I, if I've got that right. And it's very timely that we're interviewing you this week because of what just went down with the black list, opening up their services such as they are to play rights for. And so the kerfuffle for people who don't know is that most playwrights have their plays on new play exchange, which has a flat fee per per month for, for hosting your plays in your profile and the black list.

2 (1h 20m 45s):
As far as I understand all the Franklin lettering came out and maybe you've made some clarification, but it's $30 per month per script, or scrapped like, and Brian, James, you have a lot of plays on new play exchange. So that would be completely exorbitantly expensive for you. So I really curious to hear what your thoughts are about the whole.

3 (1h 21m 7s):
Yeah, well, it is really sort of like a collision between capitalism and art in a big way. And from, I mean, Franklin Leonard, my correct me, but it seems like the blacklist is a, is a business endeavor, right? So you have to look at it like a business endeavor. There is a profit to be made. There are employees, right. There are people to be paid, et cetera. And I think it's like, I think it's, it's, it's also collision between what's normal and usual in the film and television world. And what's normal and usual in the theater world and film and television is very much more a capitalistic endeavor and theater is very much not that like we are not making money.

3 (1h 21m 54s):
Nobody is, is running plays to make money. And nobody's making a living as a, as a playwright. I, so with that said, and I followed this, this discussion online and read a lot of what Franklin has said about it. And I think he's a, he's a very good representative for this project that he's started, you know, and I think this project has been for screenwriters really kind of wonderful because there, before the blacklist, there were very few sort of open access channels for people to sort of, to have that feeling of it's it's a little bit more democratized for a screenwriter to get seen.

3 (1h 22m 38s):
It's an opportunity, but there is costs to it. I would not look at it like the new play exchange because the new play exchange is actually a one year or a one it's like $12 a year for new play exchange to host as many plays as you feel like. And he just can't compare the two on, on the blacklist. If I was to use it, I would find my one strongest play and maybe host it at, during this free cycle. Like he's allowing plays to be hosted for free for a period of time.

3 (1h 23m 18s):
But the sort of like catch on on the blacklist is you pay for reviews and it's the reviews that sort of bump your work up. So if you get a strong review of your play, you earn more time on the site. And the more positive reviews you get, the more likelihood it is that the other people will see this script, but it does take, it does take investment

1 (1h 23m 46s):
Basically. Well, basically it's all a multi-level marketing scam. I mean, I know that it's not, but that is what

2 (1h 23m 55s):
No, it is because for the majority of plays that are written, there is no end user. I mean, if you take every single play that's being written in 2022, even, you know, 1% of them have an end user, I E a theater that's going to produce it and all the rest is

1 (1h 24m 15s):
Okay. So the other thing that I'm really wondering is like, okay, so I'm in this in LA I'm, I'm, I'm meeting a lot of people and a lot of them are playwrights turn television writers. Right. And that's how they're making their money now. And so I'm wondering if also, frankly, he, I mean, he's picked up on that, right. And he's like, okay, so Hollywood wants real writers, playwrights. I did quotes air quotes, you know, like they think playwrights have the answers a lot of time to television problems. And so I'm wondering if it's all, it's all just theaters, all, it's all just getting turned into this sort of Hollywood, like stuff.

1 (1h 24m 55s):
It's just amazing.

3 (1h 24m 56s):
It could be, I honestly think Franklin's in it for the right reasons. I don't think he's trying to scam people. He, he seems to, because he's really, he's answering every question and he's confronting and he's being honest and sincere. I really just think it's a mentality that we're, we are very used to in the screenwriting world of paying a lot of fees, like fees are all over the place in a way that it's just, it's just not a, it's becoming less and less common in the theater world. And so I just think it's like a collision of two things that maybe don't belong together.

3 (1h 25m 38s):
You know,

1 (1h 25m 41s):
We'll have to

3 (1h 25m 41s):
Seem like they should, like writing is writing, right. Dramatic writing is dramatic writing. So on the surface, it seems like these two things could co-exist well, but I, I just think that the dynamics are just, the worlds are just so unbelievably different than it's causing all this conflict.

2 (1h 25m 58s):
So I have a question for both of you guys. I directed a play in my town a couple of years ago, and we like it. Like it is the perennial story. We're having a hard time getting tickets. So I, as much as I could, would pay for the house by just inviting people that, that I knew who wouldn't otherwise. And so many of them had never seen a play before. So many of them, it was their first time. And, and there was just so many people saying like, oh, wow, plays. I never really would have thought that, you know, I would enjoy going to a theater. Now I attribute that to the fact that we don't have really anything in the way of arts education in our public school, but systems, but what, what else is the answer?

2 (1h 26m 49s):
Why else is it because of money? Is it because it's so much cheaper to watch television and see movies? I mean, because people pay handsomely, for example, for the experience of going to see a football game, what the, you know, why don't people find inherent value in seeing life before

3 (1h 27m 10s):
I have a roundabout answer to this shocking, I spent some time in Poland during my, during grad school and after grad school, I took several trips to Poland and I got introduced to the way the Polish people and Europeans interact with theater. And my first trip was in, was in 2012 there in my second semester of school. And I met all these playwrights and I attended a play a theater festival, all these amazing Polish productions of plays. And it's, it is like, we're talking about like, just a moment ago, we were talking about how the film and television world is colliding with the theater world.

3 (1h 27m 59s):
I think comparing the way the public interacted with theater in Poland with the way people do in the United States is like too, it's you can't, you almost can't compare it because it's just so unbelievably different. It's part of the cultural fabric they're like going to the theater is one of the options alongside going to the movies in, in Warsaw, Poland, where I, where I was. And I was like astounded by it. And a lot of it is because, and this is changing in Poland and, and other Eastern and central European countries, but the government supports the theaters.

3 (1h 28m 39s):
There are public several public theaters that aren't spending 90% of their time fundraising. They're spending their time on the art. And there are playwrights that money trickles down to them. These playwrights that I met on this first trip to Poland are supported. They don't have, like, they were, they were surprised to hear about our job situation, like playwrights have day jobs and things that working in day jobs that are related to the making of theater. And that was the kind of the status quo. And I think that's like, it's a, it's a difference is so cultural.

3 (1h 29m 21s):
It's so different. It's you can't take the, some kind of secret sauce and apply it here. And then, and then make the things change. It's like teaching plays that aren't Shakespeare from a young age. So that there's an understanding that these, these are works that are created today by living writers, just like there are novels that are created by living writers today. I think consent for speaking for myself as a student, I didn't know theater was something that was made today. When I was a kid, when I was growing up all the theater authors, I thought all the plays were already written in that were already written in the past.

3 (1h 30m 8s):
And it wasn't an active contemporary art form. And that's because my public school upbringing included some Shakespeare and nothing else. And then anything that I saw was like guys and dolls, you know, west side, it was, it was all from before I was born era. And, and I think that's part of that's part of it is like we don't value our living writers in a way that, that we used to maybe, maybe, maybe I don't, I don't, I don't have capitalism is probably the, the reason for everything, but everything that's going wrong, but I don't know.

3 (1h 30m 54s):
I think we may be, we need, maybe we need to start a podcast that is about capitalism and theater.

1 (1h 31m 2s):
Yeah. Like, I definitely feel like, I feel like I don't understand either, like what, but I know this, that, that television, somehow we made television work, like, right, right. Like bright people, Brian people pay for television streaming services. Right. So it's not, it's not just plug it. So we value streaming services. We just don't value theater. Like we used to, and now with the pandemic, of course that's a whole nother thing. But even way before that, obviously like you're talking about, it's interesting. It's like we want, so I studied.

1 (1h 31m 42s):
And maybe you did too. Like I, I studied for awhile, the history of film, right. And history of film, writing and history of, and so, and then, and how it, it, my understanding how it started was like they had, you know, obviously they were silent films, blah, blah, blah. And when they started to write titles and when they started to write things and scripts, and they in the invention of sound for, for films came, they needed people to write the titles and write the things. So they went to, they didn't know who to go to. Right. So they went to, they went to journalists and then when the journalists were all exhausted, they went to, to the theater, to theater folks.

1 (1h 32m 23s):
Right. So I've just, I wonder if there, and now what I'm seeing is literally everyone I talked to is like, oh, you want to get repped by a manager. You want to get it. You want to get into a room writing for television, which is what I'm trying to do. They're like write, start writing plays. I was like, wait, what is happening? So we go to the theater when we are looking for quality, and yet we are not willing to pay people to actually do the theater. It's so interesting. It's like when the theater folks can be used to, to make Hollywood look good, we will go to the theater. Meaning we will pluck the talent from the theater, usually in Chicago, New York and other places.

1 (1h 33m 3s):
And then, and then bring them to LA. But it's like, we don't inherently value the fricking theater. It's so weird to me. And yet also we have conservatories where people's pay, pay hundreds of thousands of dollars to actually still study

3 (1h 33m 17s):
Yes. A grade with all of that. And I'll add that from the perspective of like a regular, everyday person, where do you need to go to access all the great film and television, like, look over my shoulder. Like I have to go two feet behind me to sit on a couch to turn it on and watch it. And if I live in the middle of nowhere, like Northern Wisconsin, where's the nearest theater. Cray knows you. You don't know. It's just like, it's, it's just not as ubiquitous and not as easy to access. It's just like, the TV is very easy to access.

3 (1h 33m 57s):
The theater takes not just monetary investment, but time and physical. Like you need to get up out of your seats to get in the car so much.

2 (1h 34m 11s):
And I actually kind of think that the, another sort of debate that that's been happening since the pandemic is this very tired debate about whether, you know, digital theater is real theater and theater has long had this Luddite sort of backbone where, you know, probably it, to me, it feels like sour grapes, like ever since movies came along, there's just been this rejection of technology, but one of the best ideas I've ever heard for how to ameliorate this problem that we're talking about of theater not being part of our cultural fabric is from Jeremy O. Harris, who really is into this idea of bringing VR to schools so that kids can see plays, but it feels somewhat more like it probably isn't exactly the same so that it feels somewhat more like being there than, you know, watching something on video.

2 (1h 35m 8s):
And I feel like maybe where the dam is going to break is we're going to have to come to the, and we're going to attempt to really embrace technology, not just so that we have cool lighting grids, but like in all of the ways for accessibility, for this very reason, because we're a part of the problem. If we're not making it more accessible. Right.

3 (1h 35m 29s):
Yeah. I love the accessibility that has sort of spawned out of the pandemic timeline that we're still living in. And I love the people that are embracing it and trying to find ways to, to spread this out and embrace it. It's theater, if you think it's theater from my, from my perspective, but ultimately I feel like theater is never gonna go away. Like theater is always going to be meaningful because it's meaningful to some people and it's not for everybody. And I think, I think if we're trying to make it for everybody, we're, we're fighting a losing fight. And maybe that's not the point. I think the point is to keep an eye start locally, you know, you're building your art locally and you're working with people in person locally, and you're starting, you're starting there and who are the people that you can find locally and, and then that's your base.

3 (1h 36m 28s):
And then you can build up from there, you can use VR, you can use, you know, all kinds of digital theater to, to expand outward. But I think if you maintain a focus on the, the local ideal, then I think, I think you can be okay, but it's just theater is just never gonna be this money-making thing where everybody's going to be able to live a sustainable life because they're just, it's not for enough people, the way that film and television is for millions and millions more.

1 (1h 37m 0s):
It's so interesting. So I wonder then about the necessity for theater schools, right? I mean, like, look, if we're, and I, there is no answer, but like these, and I think that's what we're seeing in conservatories are like struggling to stay relevant and to say no, to do training as a theater actor or a playwright is still essential when the job, when you can't really make a living at it, is it essential? I mean, it's so unless the government gets, gets involved in funds it, unless somebody funds the shit, it's going to be interesting to see if theater conservatories, especially for acting, stay around theater wise, unless, you know, cause like film and TV classes, you, you know, you can do on zoom and Bubba, but I teach theater on zoom, right?

1 (1h 37m 54s):
So it a very bizarre fate, but I find myself as I'm teaching these kiddos at conservatories on zoom because of the pandemic, I am naturally naturally teaching more film and television skills. Cause that's what we're on. And it's hard to teach fricking theater on zoom and it just is and masks and all that shit, you know, and the students are together at mast. I can't see what the fuck's going on. So, but anyway, it's just, it's, it's really, really interesting time. And it's also, I think it's good that we're starting to have at least, you know, the conversations about all this stuff because yeah, if not, we're gonna, it's just, it's just going to be miserable for everybody involved.

3 (1h 38m 37s):
I said for theater schools, I think it's valuable if it's valuable to you, if the, if it's meaningful, if it means something to you, like you're the one person that gets to say whether or not it matters taking, like attending these schools and learning and learning about theater and acting or play writing or directing. I think where it becomes dangerous is when schools give the impression that when you graduate, there's going to be some kind of like a promise of a professional life based on what you just learned. That's just, that's the fallacy.

3 (1h 39m 20s):
So you can't like, this is not a, this is not a, a study that's going to lead to a promise of jobs. And if you're okay with that, I was okay with that. It's had to attend to grad school and getting my MFA because I knew it wasn't gonna promise me anything. And I, so I was like, that's fine. And I, so I didn't have that as part of my experience, in my expectation of graduating, I hoped like I had hoped ever since that every place would lead to something. But I, you know, I'm aware that that's not in control of that.

2 (1h 40m 3s):
So we've talked a lot about how every single person who, who goes to an acting program hears multiple times and from multiple sources, you know, there's a, there's almost a 0% chance that you will be able to make a living as an actor, just FYI. And then everybody to a person says, yeah, okay. But I'm, I'm going to be the exception. Did you have that thought when you were leaving

3 (1h 40m 27s):
Your MFA? I would be like an exception. Yes I did. Because I saw there's a, this playwright who I love Marjorie shaker, who was a year ahead of me, she won, she won an award before. So before I was at USC USC, wasn't producing a lot of award play rights there. We're producing a lot of playwrights that the carrot at the end of the stick of USDA's program is the film school. Because when I attended a playwright, playwright, students were kind of Trojan horse into the film school.

3 (1h 41m 10s):
You were allowed to take a lot of film classes at USC. And that was a, that would draw. Would you draw a lot of people into the program monitoring came in and she won this great theater and it's play writing award. I can't, no, I can't remember the name of it, but it led to a lot of success for her and, and

1 (1h 41m 31s):
In the theater or in the film later.

3 (1h 41m 35s):
And I was like, Marjorie did it. I can do it. And so I desperately wanted to win the same award that she won, saw the ripple effect. Like it led to this, led to this and led to this and led to this. And my shoe bruhs had me believing that I was, you know, special and that I was going to win that. And I didn't, I didn't even come wasn't even a finalist for it. But however, I did win a couple of Kennedy center, college theater, festival awards. I won two coming in my final semester of grad school. And as far as I know, no other USC writer before me had won any of these and I got two of them and, and it was unbelievable.

3 (1h 42m 25s):
It was like amazing. And I really thought that this would anoint me in some way. So I, I went in very much aware this doesn't lead to anything promised. And, but I came out with some winning things that didn't go in expecting to win and, and thinking that, oh, I'm I, because every year there's a cycle of students graduating with MFAs and a handful of them become anointed to, to the, the commissions and all the things. And I thought I was going to be in that group when I came out and I wasn't, I was just another writer.

3 (1h 43m 8s):
And that was a little surprising to me and deflating.

1 (1h 43m 15s):
I was gonna say, like, I just have to say, I was so touched hearing that you won those two awards. I mean, it's cool that you want them, but I think a deeper meaning for me is like, as human beings, we must have the hope that we are the exception or we wouldn't do anything. I wouldn't do anything. So like I have to hold we're so desperately clinging, especially into the arts in the arts, I think, and entertainment, worlds that we are the exception. And, and maybe in everything, like when we're diagnosed with something or when we're a loved one is I am a bird I love and we'll stand behind people that think they are the exception every time, because it's, it's like part of what is so beautiful about being a human being.

1 (1h 44m 4s):
And the only thing that keeps me going sometimes is hearing these stories and anyway, whatever, that's just what I thought when you were talking was like, of course, like,

2 (1h 44m 13s):
Yeah, yeah, you're right. You're right. No, it's, it's, it's part of our design. It's built into our wiring because otherwise yeah. Why would we keep going? So, but what, what, Brian, what is your understanding of what has been the disconnect in terms of people wanting to make your amazing award winning plays into productions

3 (1h 44m 35s):
Or a multitude of reasons? And I think some of it is, I'm not right. Like I haven't written the right play at the right time. Like the plays that I've written, just aren't landing with people. I'm not as good as I think I am. And sometimes the plays that maybe are good enough are, it's just so hard to find the right eyes to get your play in front of them. That my place I've just, you know, I'm not represented. I haven't, I've never been represented. I've been hustling on my own all along. And I, like you talked about, you described me as strategic when I was in, when I was in grad school.

3 (1h 45m 16s):
And that's kinda like, I kind of like cringe a little bit at that word, but it is the right word. I, I try, like I follow every opportunity I can find and, and I follow through whenever I can. And, and it just, I think, I think the biggest reason is because I just haven't written the right play at the right time and gotten it to the right person. I don't, I don't believe I'm a good writer. I know I'm a good writer, but I also know that there are a million good writers out there. And I know there are a lot of great plays that don't see the light of day. You know, I, I, this is one of the things I've learned doing the podcast is that there are so many playwrights writing and working and trying really hard and just not getting there.

3 (1h 46m 3s):
I also think that the, the, the history of theater has been the majority of privileged white cisgendered men. And I came up, I've been coming up at a time when the industry is trying to push back on that and not just elevate to the same people that it has elevated for generations. And is that a contributing factor? Probably, but like, it's not one I'm complaining about it because it's, I understand, you know, and neither I understand,

1 (1h 46m 38s):
I can ask you because you're, you're, you seem like a really open dude. How do you work with you personally? And there's, you know, cause how do you, how do record with that? Like how do you say, like I'm a good writer and maybe it's not my time, so then what the fuck do you do? Like, I literally don't know what you mean.

3 (1h 47m 1s):
Yeah. Well, I don't feel entitled to anything. So that's kind of my starting point. I'm not entitled to success. I'm not entitled for this next play to be read by the Pulitzer committee or, or be produced on Broadway or be even given them zoom reading, you know, like I don't think I'm entitled to any of it. And because that's kind of my starting point, it makes my ability to just continue working a little bit easier. What I care about is writing the next play and just doing the best I can with it. And then where it goes, I can control like so little of it and part of, part of my journey to get to this point of view.

3 (1h 47m 47s):
Cause I haven't always been, you know, like this is thinking about the concept of success and what success means and, and how I've con, and this question comes up a lot in my podcast. Like what is success to you? And everybody has very different answers to it. And I've decided that it successes of is, is, is fluid. And we define success for ourselves. And if I'm going to say the only way for me to be X success, success, or my new play to be a success is it needs to win a Pulitzer and go to Broadway.

3 (1h 48m 28s):
Then I'm, I'm setting myself up for a lot of sadness. So I've decided that success to me is working as hard as I can to write the best play I can. And at the end of the day, if I've done that work and I'm happy with the thing I created, then that's success.

2 (1h 48m 50s):
I love that. I love that. And I, I'm going to go on and Elim and make a prediction that either later in your life, or God forbid, posthumously, the people will discover your work and they'll come back and listen to this podcast. And they'll say, he said it, he said it right there, because the reason I'm saying that is because that stance you're adopting of not feeling entitled is truly the only stance to have. Like, it's like the only stance you're doing something wrong because

1 (1h 49m 25s):
Yeah. And I just love that you, that it's like, I think you said it, we got to start somewhere. And I think like you've said it, we start and we always talk about it on this podcast, but like it's an inside job, right? So like, and I was just listening to tic, not Han who passed away saying like, you literally, he's not even making a week. You're not even making a pie in the sky kind of thing. It's like, I have to start from the starting point of where am I coming at this work from? And it, and being honest about it because we talk a lot too, like if you want to make a budget dollars, and if you can be honest about that, then you know, okay, I want to be a playwright that they get to, to television that then runs the show.

1 (1h 50m 10s):
And then while I I'm rich or whatever, but if you literally are like, no, no, what matters to me value wise is creating good art with good people. And I am willing to do that. And even if it means that my financial abundance does not come from it, I think it's a lot, you're at least being honest at your and saying, okay, so like maybe I will die. Like you said, it brings it all full circle. So maybe I will die under a pile of unplugged. Maybe not unpublished works. Maybe not, but I'm willing to do it because I want to make good art. The willingness is BR is going to save us all.

3 (1h 50m 47s):
I like what you're saying. And Gina, you saying that I'm maybe posthumously, right? I keep thinking about how I'm dead under a pile of plays. And somebody is like, what's that smell? I come into the room and they push away these scripts and they're like, oh, Brian died. Hey, wait, welcome. This is a great New Hampshire. This is interesting. What's this play. And they sit in the room, they read this play. And then they're like, oh wait, I still have to do something about this dead person here.

1 (1h 51m 24s):
They're like, we better call the guy.

2 (1h 51m 27s):
And then, and then they're like, wait, how did this happen? He was just laying on the ground. So we started <em></em> If you liked what you heard today, please give us a positive five star review and subscribe and tell your friends. I survived. Theater school is an undeniable ink production. Jen Bosworth, Ramirez, and Gina plegia are the co-hosts. This episode was produced, edited and sound mixed by Gina <em></em> for more information about this podcast or other goings on of undeniable, Inc.

2 (1h 52m 15s):
Please visit our [e-mail]. You can also follow us on Facebook, Instagram, and Twitter. Thank you.

What is I Survived Theatre School?

We went to theatre school. We survived it, but we didn't understand it. 20 years later, we're talking to our guests about their experience of going for this highly specialized type of college at the tender age of 18. Did it all go as planned? Are we still pursuing acting? Did we get cut from the program? Did we... become famous yet?