Chapters
0:07 Is charging interest immoral?
1:21 Benefits of Lending
2:55 Scriptural Support for Borrowing
5:24 The Connection of Debt
8:55 Capital and Microcredit
9:34 Categories of Loans
11:14 Old Testament Loan Guidelines
15:20 History of Lending Practices
24:10 Modern Lending Dynamics
25:01 Dangers of Borrowing
28:57 Stewardship and Debt
32:17 Predatory Lending Awareness


Transcript
[0:01]All right. All right. Good morning. So, is all debt sinful?
[0:07]Is charging interest immoral?
[0:07]Is charging interest immoral? Is all borrowing and lending, are they evils to be tolerated or gifts to be stewarded? Of course, we hear, owe no one anything. That's one thing. And on the other side, it says, it is well for a man who deals generously and lends. And then, of course, we have the The main one, neither a bower nor a lender be, for a loan oft looses itself in friend, and borrowing dulls the end of husbandry. Sorry, that's Shakespeare. So, we're talking about debts, lending, interest, those sorts of things this morning. We're going off of primarily Wayne Grudem's ethics book. It's a fairly short chapter, so I'm going to kind of push through the stuff that Grudem has, and at the end, maybe we'll have some discussion and bring up some other things that might be pertinent to this. But Grudem's main kind of banner statement is that borrowing and lending are remarkably beneficial human activities.
[1:21]Benefits of Lending
[1:21]Lending is the temporary transfer of the use of property, but not the ownership of the property to another person.
[1:31]And so whether it's lending your lawnmower or lending your car or something, you're giving someone else the right to use that, but you're not transferring the ownership. And when we talk about debt, debt is simply lending someone money to use for a temporary time. after that time, they will give the money back. And the interest that is charged is simply the rental fee of that money. So you owe whatever your next payment is due. And so when we get to Romans 13, 7 through 8, where it says, pay to all what is owed to them and owe no one anything, we can think of that Grudem's way of explaining that. I've heard other explanations, but Grudem's way of saying that is simply to say, you owe your next payment. So if you have a $100,000 mortgage, you don't owe $100,000 today. You owe your next payment. And when that next payment is due, you pay it. And then you don't owe anyone anything. If you have a apartment lease, a 12-month apartment lease for $2,000 a month, you don't owe $24,000. You owe your next month's apartment lease. And so you pay that $2,000, then you don't owe anyone anything until the next two months, until the next, uh.
[2:55]Scriptural Support for Borrowing
[2:55]Payment is due. So we'll take a look at some positive scriptural witnesses. And so if we just pull, I'm going to just read through these. So we kind of blow through these fairly quickly, but, and make some comments. So Deuteronomy 24, when you make a pledge, when you make your neighbor a loan of any sort, you shall not go into his house to collect a pledge. And so, this is assuming there is loans, that people are making loans, and this is talking about how they should be conducted. Psalm 112.5, it is well with the man who deals generously and lends, who conducts all of his affairs with justice. Psalm 37, he is ever lending generously and his children become a blessing. Matthew 25, then you ought to have invested my money with the bankers. And at my coming, I should have at least received what was my own with interest. That's from the parable of the talents. And so these are verses that would support the say that, A, lending is happening. And it's, at least in some circumstances, is a good thing, is a helpful thing.
[4:13]And so and we'll come back to that to answer some further questions but in general borrowing and lending expands opportunities it allows specialization because you can borrow money and one person can be making shoes and another person can borrow money and make a little.
[4:36]Jacket store, and then you can specialize in that. It enables cooperation between the borrower and the lender. And if you think of last week, Logan's social security, social security, It says SS there in it. Sorry, Logan's Sunday School, where he talked about the value of work.
[4:58]The value of work is helped by borrowing. And I don't know if you came away from last week thinking, yeah, let's do stuff. Let's be proactive. Let's move out. God has given us a world where we should be fruitful and we
[5:24]The Connection of Debt
[5:14]should be doing things. Well, debt is part of that, enables people to get together and do things. Debt simply connects people together. So one person might have a sum of money that they don't need now, but they need it in the future. And then there's another person that needs money now, but they don't have the money, but they'll have money in the future. Well, you connect those two people together and the person with money now lends it to the person that doesn't have it now. And when that person gets money in the future, that person gives it back to the rightful owner.
[5:51]That's all lending is. And so Grudem has a little example here of how this multiplication effect works in the economy. And I'll just say right off the bat, so he has this little example. I went to AI. I said, AI, make me a PowerPoint slideshow. And I probably spent more time trying to get that to work than my whole entire rest of my classroom. But this is what it ended up after many tries. So let's just say that there is a person that has $100,000. This person doesn't need that $100,000. So what could that person do? Well, they could take that $100,000. They could put it under their blanket, you know, under their mattress, because they don't need it, and they don't want to be a lender or bowler. They just want that money, and that's out of commission.
[6:42]Or they could take that money, and they could bring it to a bank. They give it to the bank. They're getting interest. Well, what does that bank do? they would lend it out. Let's say there's a person over here that would like to buy a house for $100,000, but they only have $10,000. That person goes to the bank, takes out a loan for $90,000, and goes and buys the house for $100,000 with somebody else's money. That person buys the house, pays the builder $100,000. So now that money's gone to the builder, and the builder pays his employees and things. And let's say that builder has $90,000. and, He puts it back into the bank. So now the bank has that $90,000. Now let's say there's someone that needs $100,000, but they have $20,000. And so they go into the bank and take out a loan for $80,000. And guess what they do? They go out and buy a house. They pay the builder $100,000. That builder gets the $100,000. He takes $80,000 and puts it back in the bank. And guess what? There's another person that wants to buy a house, and they have $30,000. So they go to the bank and they take out a loan for $70,000. They go out and buy a house for $100,000, gives the builder the $100,000. The builder pays the employees and everything and now puts back $70,000 back into the bank. I don't know if you're keeping up on the slides there.
[8:08]So in the end, the bank has...
[8:12]I've lost track. What is it? $80,000. There's still $80,000 in the bank, but there's been three houses that have been built, three households that have been formed that are having shelter. There are three builders that have gotten paid. There's three sets of employees that have gotten paid. And then they go out and they buy groceries and all the rest of the things. And all that wouldn't have happened if the person with the $100,000 would not have lent it out through the intermediary of the bank. And so that is in an economy, that's one way that debt is very beneficial for
[8:55]Capital and Microcredit
[8:53]the economy as a whole and for people as a whole. That person that didn't have a house would not have a house, would still be renting or whatever they were doing if they had not, if they didn't have access to capital. So, you know, you might be, you know, little flags coming up. Whoa, wait a minute. That, you know, you're making this sound too good. We all know the bad things with debt. Well, let me go another step further and talk about the need for capital. And in 2006, there were economists that won the Nobel Peace Prize.
[9:34]Categories of Loans
[9:33]And do you know what they want it for? For developing the concept of microcredit.
[9:38]Where people go and they make loans to poor people, usually women, in third world countries. Because what these people lack is actually capital. That's what they're missing. They're not missing education or anything else. They need a cow or they need whatever it is so they can get established. So these figured out how to make microloans. And we actually have one of these organizations in town, in Knife River, and they are called Farms International. And I put the thing up there. And so this is a Christian organization saying, we are going to spread the love of God by putting you in debt. It's like, well, that's kind of interesting. But that is literally what they do. And what does it say? We have, therefore, opportunity. we have opportunity the opportunity comes through lending money now I'm, Does Farms International, do they want the person that is taking the loan to succeed?
[10:49]Yeah. This is a time when we are trying to increase things and help better. Both parties are on the same side. Both parties have a stated goal. There's value being created. And they've thought through what happens if they
[11:14]Old Testament Loan Guidelines
[11:08]don't pay and all that stuff. But the point here is that there is good being done. And one of the things that we have hard time to think of are different categories of loans. So there's a category of loans that we would call charitable gifts.
[11:28]Oh, actually, before we go to that, we'll go to, you can back up one. So other lending benefits. Lending is the temporary transfer. Through lending, you give the owner of the property control over that property. The owner gets to determine how long to lend out the property, how much, what sort of risk level they are willing to accept, and what sort of interest rate they would need to receive. Through lending, we can demonstrate trustworthiness, faithful stewardship, honesty, wisdom, and thanksgiving. Lending is actually distinctively human. Only humans can enter into voluntary, future-orientated, covenantal agreements. Now, at this point, you might be thinking, like, I'm putting a lot of lipstick on this pig. Like, we all know how bad debt is, right? And all I've been saying is how good it is.
[12:23]Well, probably we haven't thought of different categories. So a lot of times people will categorize loans when thinking through this into charitable loans, sustainment loans, and business loans.
[12:39]So a charitable loan is when you are giving, not giving, sorry, when you are lending money or assets to someone in need with the idea that you are going to help this person out of their need. Someone's in trouble and you are going to help them by lending. Now, in our culture, that hardly even ever happens anymore because money is so easy. Anyone practically can take out a loan.
[13:09]But if we went back even 50, 60, 70 years, it would not be that easy. And certainly if we go back 200 years, and certainly if we go back into the time of when it was in the Bible times, you couldn't just open up a credit card and cover your needs. You would need to go to somebody or a church or something and say, I am in need here. How can you help me out? And one of those ways would be through a charitable loan. And this is when you are trying to help somebody in loaning. And then sustainment loans is more like, if we would think of taking out a mortgage, a loan that helps sustain your living. And that obviously there's a lot that would fall into that. And then the third is business loans. So business loans are two people that make an agreement to take out a loan, to lend money for business purposes. And almost everyone, commentators and Grudem, agree that the Bible...
[14:15]Is almost silent on business loans. So if you want to talk with someone and you want to come up with a plan where, hey, I'm going to lend you money and you're going to pitch in something else, you know, you're a great chef. And so I'm going to lend you money. We're going to go into business together and build a restaurant. I'll provide the capital. You provide the menu and we'll do this together. Hey, have at it. Go do things, be prosperous and multiply.
[14:48]These are arrangements that both parties enter into by agreement. They're both accepting the deals and they're both want the others to succeed. And so as far as like lending, the Bible is saying, uh, relatively silent on that. Now there's morality. So planning, and if you're going to build a tower or plan and things like that, but that's not necessarily talking about the loan itself.
[15:20]History of Lending Practices
[15:16]And then I added in a couple others. So these are, we'll maybe talk about these. Um, that's not generally what you think about, but, uh, I put in consumption loans and that's in our culture. It's easy to consume things just by taking out loans. And so I put that other, and then there's predatory lending, which we might talk about in a little bit. But in general, the point is, is that there's charitable loans where people are trying to help. There's value being created.
[15:51]Holy cow. Yeah, sorry. That was, so, okay, let's get into Old Testament restrictions.
[16:00]And so I'll burn through these pretty quick as well. But Psalm 15, he who walks blamelessly and does what is right, who does not put out his money at interest and does not take a bribe against the innocent. He who does these things shall never be moved. Deuteronomy 23, you shall not charge interest on loans to your brother, interest on money, interest on food, interest on anything that is lent for interest. No, no, no, no. All right, get the point? So most commentators agree that these are specifically referring to charitable loans. When you are lending to your brother or your fellow Israelite, it's like, don't charge them interest. You're helping them. This isn't the purpose of these loans are not to get rich. They are to help your brother in need. If you lend somebody a blanket to stay warm, when they give the blanket back, take the blanket. But don't charge interest on that blanket. Let them use the blanket.
[17:05]Exodus 22. If you lend money to my people with you who is poor, you shall not be like a money lender to them. You shall not exact interest from them. So now this is getting a little bit more to the point. If you are lending to someone who is poor, don't be like a moneylender. So there are moneylenders. There's lending that's going on in this culture. But when you lend to someone that's poor, don't charge that person interest. That's not a place for you to be getting interest. Leviticus, if your brother becomes poor and cannot maintain himself, you shall support him as though he were a stranger and a soldier, and he shall live with you. Take no interest from him or profit, but fear your God, that your brother may live beside you. You shall not lend him your money at interest, nor give him your food for profit. And so, again, we're talking about charitable loans where we're lending to someone in need.
[18:02]Another, Deuteronomy 23. I don't know if that's, yeah. So, you shall not charge interest on your loans to your brother. Interest on money, interest on food, interest on anything for interest. You may charge a foreigner interest. Hold on. Here it is, foreigner interest, but you may not charge your brother interest, that the Lord your God may bless you. So now we're talking about if there's a foreigner in town, and think about in Israel, you know, a caravan of merchants or whatever, you may lend them money, you may charge interest, and there's probably a higher risk that they might leave town and not pay you back. So charging interest is acceptable because there's a level of risk there that you are taking on for doing that.
[18:51]So that kind of falls into the business loans of things. Nehemiah 5.7, I took counsel with myself, brought charges against the nobles. In Nehemiah, there was a famine. There was starvation. And Nehemiah said, you are exacting interest from your brother. and I held an assembly against them because there's people in need. And again, you're charging interest. So the idea is that you are charging interest on somebody that's in need. So that's a little bit of some of the Old Testament prohibitions against lending. What I want to do now is a quick history. So Grudem goes through a little bit of history of how we get to where we are today. So in the ancient world, interest existed, but in general was regulated. The early church, there was loans that were charged at interest. And at the beginning, even clergy was. But then in the mid-4th century, there was a council and they said, clergy, you may not lend money, or clerics, I guess would be the two people. You cannot lend money at interest. Now, through the Middle Ages, that was...
[20:12]There were different practices, but it was certainly frowned upon and the church was not supposed to be making these loans. It was not until Aquinas, Thomas Aquinas came, that he went back to Aristotle. And if you remember from last week, Aristotle, boo, Aristotle like looked down on work. And so that was last week. Well, this week, Aristotle comes and says, no, interest is bad. And Augustine was, Augustine, sorry, Aquinas was very influenced by Aristotle and said that making loans is not good, that money is barren, you should not charge interest, you should not be a moneylender, and made, essentially banned interest from any Christian charging other Christians' interest. Now, interestingly enough, economies, even in the Middle Ages, work on money lending. Just like the example I showed with going to the bank, you can't just say everyone stop money lending because it's happening, it's occurring. So, interesting side note, in the Middle Ages, if Christians couldn't lend to Christians, but they needed to take a loan, what people group was in Europe at that time that could fill that gap?
[21:37]The Jews. And that's essentially how the Jewish culture became known for being moneylenders. And when you lend money, that's a way of accumulating wealth. And so they gained wealth, they gained power, and then they would be looked down upon and they would be drummed out of town or worse. And so a lot of this goes into some of these longtime anti-Semitism things. And it's interesting, this went all the way through modern times. In fact, um, even it wasn't until 50, 60 years ago that a lot of banks and wall streets still came from, uh, company, uh, from, from families. And so I made a list of some, where was it? So if the, the Protestants, the elite Protestants went more into banking. And so if you think of like J.P. Morgan, Wells Fargo, these were Protestant type banks. And if you think of Solomon Brothers, Goldman Sachs, some of these were more Jewish. And it came right into the 20th century where that's kind of how things were. But for our purposes, in the Middle Ages, Because...
[23:00]Interest was looked down upon, and instead of charging interest, they would charge fees, and there was all sorts of other ways to charge interest without actually calling it interest. It wasn't until the Reformation that Luther came, and Luther was in agreement that interest wasn't so good, but he was a little waving, like, well, maybe, I know, he was seeing what was going on. But Calvin came and really said, you know, interest is okay. Loans can have their purpose. And since that time, we've started coming back to more of what we would talk about, the biblical ideas of charitable loans and things like that. Now, in the past, you know, since 50, 60 years, lending has grown and money supply has grown. And that comes in part of a fiat money system that we are in where there's lots of money. Now there's it's easy to get money, right? So we're kind of in a different world today where there's much more danger in money because it's so easy to come by.
[24:10]Modern Lending Dynamics
[24:11]And so we'll talk a little bit about that. Um.
[24:14]And, oh, the other thing with fiat money is when you borrowed someone, when you lent somebody a blanket and they gave you back the blanket, you're getting back what you have. You didn't lose anything. You didn't charge them interest. If you lend somebody money in our system that we have now, that money is losing value. So if you lend someone $1,000 and in a year from now, they pay you back $1,000, you're actually getting back something that is worth less than $1,000 in that time. So even in charitable giving, it is like a lot of people argue that it's still okay to charge a nominal rate of interest so you're not actually losing. But that's another conversation.
[25:01]Dangers of Borrowing
[25:02]So let's talk about dangers of borrowing, okay? So, some of the dangers are, we have a loss of future, there you go. So, I want to list off 1, 2, 3, 4, 5, 6, can I get 6 people to read those verses? So, we are talking about the dangers of money, and this is very relevant in our culture. So, one of the dangers is the loss of future freedom. Number one, Proverbs 22, 7. The slave to the lender. Now, let's go back to Farms International or charitable loans.
[25:44]Is the lender acting like a slave master in that case? No. Right. So there is a way of lending where you are not where this is not happening. If we think of. Well, OK, keep on. Number two, responsibility for loss or damage. So this is my my father in law. He told me while he was alive, you really say, I don't borrow things because if I borrow and I break it, then I got to buy him something and I got to buy it. I end up buying it twice. So, but that is a risk. If you borrow someone's cow and something happens to the cow or the cow gores someone, you're responsible at that time.
[26:31]Moral danger in borrowing beyond your ability to pay. Number three. So here we have something that is more applicable to our culture is you're borrowing and borrowing and all of a sudden it's like, oh man, I didn't realize I borrowed so much. and you can't pay it back. And that's a real danger because we are called to pay it back. What was four? Say four, I can't remember what it was. Go for it. Okay, so we also wanted to mention quickly about co-signing and guaranteeing loans. So the Bible does talk about that. So number five. So this is talking against signing a loan and guaranteeing someone else's loan. And number six, that's right. So don't give surety for a debt. And so what this is referring to is someone signing a loan, the bank won't give them the loan, and they come to you and they say, hey, you know, would you sign this? Then the bank will give me the loan.
[27:38]Sense. I mean, right? I'm helping you out. What the Bible is saying, and again, what Grudem and most commentators would say is that that is unwise, but not prohibited. And so that's a place where you can use your own judgment and you can sign. But when you sign that, you need to be thinking that, yes, there's a real possibility that I will be paying that loan.
[28:08]And so there's definitely people that would say, no, no, never. The Bible is clear on that. Yeah. Yeah. And so, exactly. So the point, Warren's point is that we can use our wisdom. We can use our discernment. the Bible, especially in these Proverbs, are simply warning, giving rules and things to follow, but not setting in laws that cannot be broken or transgressed, things like that. So, oh, and then the final one is just a stewardship concern. So this is really in our culture, another biggie is not so much whether lending
[28:57]Stewardship and Debt
[28:52]and borrowing, whether that's right or wrong, but is it good stewardship? So we are stewards of God's resources. And is it good stewardship to enter into debt?
[29:09]Thank you. No. The answer is no. I'm sure we have some Dave Ramsey followers here that we say, no, never. And so Grudem's explanation would be, yeah, there's room to use your wisdom and judgment, as far as taking off these resources. And really what we're doing, we're talking about what are your resource. What resource are you taking? You're taking your future income, and we are going to use that future income that you don't have. And now immediately you're thinking, oh my goodness, you know, you have credit cards or whatever, but really that's a resource that God has given you. And when it comes to places like the church, which falls more in the business side of things, because this is a business from that standpoint. If the church goes bankrupt, none of you will get pulled into the poorhouse.
[30:16]The church is saying we are going to take our resources. Well, one of our resources is future giving. And so we're going to take that future resource and we're going to use it now. Same thing with someone that has a job and you're working. I'm going to take those future dollars, that resource that God has given or will give, and we are going to use that now. We're going to pull that into the future. And so that's the idea is that, but that's where the big worry comes, right? We are stewarding these things. And is that stewarding or is that presuming? Well, there's room to work through there and thinking about that.
[31:05]So that's the basic gist of Grudem's chapter. I have a ton more stuff to go over. But I wanted to kind of throw this out to you and see if there's comments or thoughts before we go further on this. Yes. So, that's a great point, is that there are convictions. You could have the same loan, let's say, but people have different convictions. And it's clear that if you are convicted by this, if you have a conviction that I am not going to take out a loan, don't take out a loan. Don't go against your conscience if when you are reading the Bible, and these are clearly, and it's putting a, if it's binding your conscience in a way, then don't break that conscience. So we have to be careful to go and say, well, of course you should be getting a mortgage to build your house. Well, maybe, maybe, maybe not. But we also don't want to prohibit people from doing that as well.
[32:17]Predatory Lending Awareness
[32:18]So I wanted to kind of bring in the other, a couple other things and think about. So let's talk a little bit about predator. Well, let's talk about the availability of money. So money is available. You go into college and you get letters saying, hey, you're 18 years old. We have a credit card for you. I mean, it's like, really?
[32:45]And so it's easy to get money. So we're in a little different culture. And so some kind of basic principles when we think of taking a loan is one thing that often is said is that you don't take out money. You don't take a loan for a depreciating asset. And so if you're going to pay interest, whatever is you're taking out a loan for, you want that to be appreciating. And what would be a typical appreciating asset that you take out a loan for? A house, right? And so that would make some sense. You don't want to pay interest on a depreciating asset. You don't want to pay somebody to lose money, right? I mean, so what would be a good example of something that you would take out a loan that's depreciating? A car, right? So I'm not saying, you know, this word just, you know, we're in ethics here, right? So ethics is not, we don't have the clear corners of systematic theology.
[33:49]But just financially, when you take out a car loan, you're paying 5% interest. You're paying for the right to lose money. And so that's, you know, yeah, I'm fully, so again, there's a place for it, right? All these things have a place, but we want to have some wisdom in thinking about things.
[34:18]Now, what would even be worse is paying interest on nothing, an unsecured debt, where you're not getting anything you're just paying interest what would that be an example of credit card right it's like hey let's go to eat oh let's do this and now we're spending away and then at the end of the month it's like whoa where did that come from or you know we're going to go to disney world did you hear that the top disney price just went over 200 a person for a day at.
[34:49]So, you know, hey, we'll do it now and then we will pay it later. So, again, we're not saying you can't do that. You're taking future income. You're spending it now. There might be a good reason. But just financially, we want to be good stewards of our money. We also want to be thinking, I saw you had the rule of 72. If you gain assets, rule of 72 is simply you divide by 72 your rate of return and that's how long it takes to double money. So if you are getting, I think, if you have $10,000 and I think it said 8% or something, it takes you like 9 or 10 years and then all of a sudden you have $20,000. And then you wait another 9 or 10 years and that 20 becomes 40 and it's growing exponentially. The same is true with debt. If you take out a loan and you're paying 8% or 10% and you're not paying down that principal, you are going to go back behind faster and faster. Um, wanted to touch on something that is called predatory lending. So predatory lending. So we have over here, we have, uh, charitable lending where the lender wants what's best for the borrower. Then I'll put in this middle where we are in the 20th century, 21st century of.
[36:13]Just spending where there is no relationship there. You get a credit card, you have the bank, and they're some impersonal, you're a number, and nobody knows you. They just say, hey, you can spend money, you can pay it back. But then there's another thing that we would call predatory. And these are people that want you to fail. And they want to make money off of your misfortune. The easiest thing to think about that, you'd have to travel across the bridge, which way? That way. Over to Superior to go to like a payday loan or a title loan. And these are places where if you go in and take out a loan, pay off that loan and leave, well, they'll go out of business. The only way they can stay in business is if you go in and you get hooked and you can't get out. Their rates are easily 400% or 500% annualized. And it is once you go in, you get hooked. And you either are doing a payday and say, hey, my next payday, you'll give me my payday early. Or you take the title of your car, the one asset you have, and you'll sign off. They'll charge enormous interest rates and you won't get out of it and it's not a good situation.
[37:39]So we need to be aware that there are predatory things that people not only are impartial, but they literally want you to go bankrupt because on the way down, they will make a lot of money. Now, what about earlier when I said, you know, giving credit cards to 18-year-olds? Is an 18-year-old mature enough to use a credit card?
[38:06]I would say maybe, okay? So, you know, but I, you know, so, but it's definitely a danger. And there's definitely 18-year-olds that should not have a credit card. And if we go further, so the predatory part of that would be like, what's the lender even doing? Well, the lender knows that if they give all the 18-year-olds and they lose 20% of the people because they go bankrupt, they're going to make a lot of interest on the way. And so, you know, it might not be quite as predatory, but still unwise. Now, that being said, there are people of all ages that should not have a credit card. Right? So we need to be wise stewards and understand our own proclivities. There are people, and that's not even bad, or not saying you or whoever is bad, but people respond differently to different things, and you need to know that. And debt is so accepted and so easy to get. So we have to be careful with that. The other one is things like student loans. Student loans, you have to be super careful with.
[39:19]That is, there's a lot of bad student loans out there. And there are people I've met with someone that was in one of these things. And actually, I put that up there, how it works for these. And so what happens is they will determine your cost of admittance or cost of admission. They add the fees. And then if you don't have money, the government will give you a Pell Grant. So that's a grant. They'll give you $7,000, but then you'll get a cash refund of like $12,000 to live on while you're going to school, getting some potentially not very valuable degree. And in the end you're just increasing debt but you get stuck because if you go back to school you will defer your payments and you can just keep on going. Now, compare that with going to school and whatever, you're an engineer or a doctor or what have you. Now if you go back to appreciating asset that's an appreciating. You're going to make an investment of, whatever it is, 50,000, 100,000, whatever. And with the idea that you are going to appreciate that with your getting something in response with that.
[40:44]So questions or comments, more things. I was hoping I could have a little more time because I'm sure there's... So got to close it there. Thank you, everyone.