James Dooley: How important do you think a knowledge panel is and having a KGM ID and Google like we're moving into the age of AI and stuff like that and being a known entity? How how important do you think it will be to have a knowledge panel?

Craig Campbell: Google can see that you are a real business and you really are there and you've got reviews and you've got all of those kind of trust signals. It would be one of the first parts of the processing.

James Dooley: Yours is a much more fun story than mine. But I was impulsive, getting frustrated, and I'm going in two-footed uh and [ __ ] all up.

James Dooley: Triggering knowledge panels in Google Ser. Today I'm joined with Craig Campbell who's done some very interesting things to trigger a knowledge panel. We've both for many years wanted to work on triggering it. We both succeeded. We both improved it quite a lot. So, let's dig straight into yourself and some of the stories of what you've done and what you've done wrong as well over the years. And there's been plenty of those.

Craig Campbell: Yeah.

James Dooley: That you did to try and trigger knowledge panels.

Craig Campbell: So, obviously for anyone who doesn't know, knowledge panel, it's a source of trust from Google as well. There's a bit of ego involved in it as well. We all want to Google our name and see all the photos and all the the other stuff there as well. So, there's a bit of ego in it. So, you know, you see someone having it, you're going, I want one of those [ __ ] So, with the mentality I've got, I I didn't care who uh I ran over or whatever. So, obviously, the biggest thing for me is I also had or still have a famous singer and a famous comedian with the same name. So, when you Google Craig Campbell, this [ __ ] singer guy comes up. I'm like, man, I always try I always try and boost that singers to annoy

James Dooley: Yeah, you probably do, you bastard.

Craig Campbell: Uh, slightly tougher for me. You know, if you've got an obscure name, it's probably slightly easier to to trigger, but I wanted it regardless. And went down the rabbit hole probably seven, eight years ago trying to to do that. And I lost four or five knowledge panels along the way. So, uh, one of the first, uh, steps that I done that that resulted in failure was I got the I got the guy to trigger the knowledge panel, paid a guy to do it, you know, he he basically done whatever he does, and uh, paid him to update Wiki data, which is an important trusted source of information. So, he does that. My knowledge panel triggers and it's got Craig Campbell and I think it my data buff. That was it. There was no picture, no [ __ ] all else, but claimed the profile, done all that kind of stuff, started, you know, leaving the feedback and, you know, putting in here's my social medias, here's this, here's that. And, uh, I'm I'm looking at this wiki data and naively and there's an important part to learn from this naively. Um, I I wasn't happy with the wiki data profile because it only had the basics on there. Like, why has you not [ __ ] added my social media on there? Why has he not done this? why you not done that? So I went, [ __ ] it, lazy bastard. I've logged into Wiki data, my own email address and all that. Went in, added all the [ __ ] [ __ ] and boom, the the [ __ ] knowledge panel disappears. I message I'm like, [ __ ] Robin bastard that says, "Uh, the [ __ ] have you, you [ __ ] dodgy bastard. I want a [ __ ] refund. What the [ __ ] are you doing?" So he's went away and reverse engineered what's went on. Uh, and he's like, "Did you edit your own profile?" And I went, "Yeah." He says, "Why not? It's [ __ ] me." So, I had to fill out with more information. I went, "No, that's why you've been taken down." Like, you cannot edit your own wiki data profile. And I've done that multiple times. But like you, just an impulsive guy. I'm going, "Right, I've got my profile now. I can just [ __ ] weed in."

James Dooley: The guy that created that wiki data for you, if he had added in all those socials, would they have stuck or you only got so much

Craig Campbell: So he started off with the bare basics and trigger the [ __ ] thing. But he didn't [ __ ] tell me in 3 months or 6 months or whatever the times are and we'll add a little bit here and a little bit there.

Craig Campbell: So that's where I was impulsive getting frustrated and I'm going in two-footed uh and [ __ ] it all up. So lost a couple of knowledge panels by doing that and I didn't really understand what was happening but I'm like mate you're a robin bastard and he's like no you are editing your own profile and that is not allowed same way Wikipedia and all that kind of stuff you cannot uh be doing stuff for yourself or whatever you need to get a trusted third party account that's got all this history of doing good things for the internet to do that. So that that was one little thing um you know mistake that I made along the way. Um, and it probably that will probably save you a year or two worth of pain and torture. Just that one little tip. Um, but obviously following on from that, you know, it's not just about wiki data. There's all of the other entities, your crunch bases, your LinkedIn, and uh, all of those kind of little wikis, uh, wiki genius, I think it's the latest one that's out there, which you're uh, I know you were on that now, and and stuff like that. So getting all of those kind of things were important as well. But from there uh when I I was got the first two banned and I was struggling to get the third or the fourth or whatever it was. I was struggling to get it to trigger

Craig Campbell: and I'm looking at Jason Bernard's Caliube thing and you know it tells you all the entities you know you've got to be on Wikipedia, you've got to be on this, you've got to be on that crud base, all of that. Th these are all coming from Bernard H or Bernard's tool Amazon and all that. I've done the Amazon author [ __ ] and all that stuff. But the one that was there that uh I didn't have was the IMDb IMDb. Now this came at a time, bear in mind this was six, seven years ago. This was at a time where, you know, podcasts and all that weren't really a thing and you couldn't just go on there and do it all. So, I'm looking at IMDb and I'm going, "The [ __ ] am I going to get on that bastard?" Uh, and I Googled my name. I put my name into it. And so, lo and behold, there was a a Craig Campbell who had been in a pawn flick in 2009, but hadn't claimed his profile. So, I just clicked claim profile and it said, "Can you upload your passport?" And whatever. So, I've uploaded the passport. I went, "Boom. You know, you're verified and all this kind of stuff." And I'm like, "Fucking hell, that was easy." I've stuck my face on there, [ __ ] edited the all the stuff. Craig's a SEO guy, businessman and actor and all that [ __ ] stuff.

James Dooley: Porn star

Craig Campbell: and the porn star was at the bottom aye. So obviously that happened and the knowledge panel triggered. Everything was going well. 3 months later, I got a message in Facebook. Hi Craig, are you an actor? And I'm like, who's asking? And she said, oh, I'll tell you what it is. My husband's an actor with the same name as you and and your face is all over. It's IMDb. And I'm like, bear in mind I'm two [ __ ] years deep into this [ __ ] crap and I've bumped a couple already. [ __ ] this [ __ ] man. She's going to [ __ ] my knowledge panel up. Like, so I blocked her. Just ignored it. But something was eating away at me inside going, "This is fake as shit." So, it's only a matter of time before you get caught. So I went on and there was other local TV programs and all that kind of stuff. They didn't know who the actor was. So it was like Boy B just shitty guys in the background. So I went into a few of those local programs said that was me. Boy B was me. So on IMDb, which you now know, edit and all that, you can [ __ ] literally [ __ ] on there. Um, so I've said I've been in Holly Oaks, River City, and a few other local things. So on looking at my profile, you'd think the guy's a bit bit inexperienced actor. So another three months passes and uh and this guy messaged me. He says, "Hi Craig, are you an actor?" And I'm like, "Man, not this [ __ ] carry on again." I went, "What's up?" And he said, "Listen, I'm a local film director. Do do you want to be in this TV series? I've seen you in YouTube and I think you'd be, you know, you've got the tattoos. I think you'd be uh a good good fit for it. And I'm like, this is a [ __ ] stitch up. So I said, come to my office. So he came down and we're speaking about it. And um I was like, listen, love you to come in and get involved. So I done it and you know, I'm in we actually filmed some of it in here. And uh and I'm shaking hand. The guy's like, "Oh man, it's a privilege to work you. Did you work in Holly Oaks and all that? Do you know so and so?" And I'm like, "Yeah, yeah, yeah." Um I mean my big mate [ __ ] Darren from the the nightclub down your way uh you know showing pictures like oh me and big Darren are [ __ ] buddies. Um big Darren from Holly Oak. So they're like man [ __ ] these guys are I've watched Hollywood for years. So they were buzzing like I'm [ __ ] bullshitting. Anyway done the done the the acting and all that and uh and the guy's like [ __ ] done really well. H cuz I don't give a [ __ ] on camera. I just it doesn't matter whether I'm being recorded or not. I'm just the same. But he's like, "Man, I'd love you to be in the whole [ __ ] thing." And I was telling him that I've got a boat and all that. He's like, "Mate, we could fill him out in the boat and all that [ __ ] I'm like, so the guy's buzzing and I end up in the whole [ __ ] thing." And uh and then obviously you've got the pictures, the footage and everything else. And and you know, I went to that length to get that IMDb to corroborate that fake Craig Campbell profile into being a real one. And obviously I've been in several other things since just for shits and giggles. You know, I even filmed something uh a couple of weeks ago. Um Psycho Sex Dolls, which is a whole different beast, but um yeah, I had the part in that as well. So, it was just fun. But um you know, went down that rabbit hole, but it was all to get the IMDb link. And now you can literally go and be in a podcast and get your IMDb thing. But IMDb is still a trusty thing. And a lot of people are not doing it. And I know you're now uh you know deep into the rabbit hole of of fully understanding it through obviously years of testing and getting things right and you're bulk deep in the IMDb and everything else. So um you can obviously do that now and you know get IMDb Pro. So you don't need to go and do what I done again you jumping around in movies and [ __ ] all that. I just found it fun to do that [ __ ] and the the the the other stuff it wasn't as popular out there. But um so IMDb,

James Dooley: yours is a much more fun story than mine,

Craig Campbell: but dude, like you could go and pay someone on legit or Fiverr to get an IMDb [ __ ] link and pretend you were a producer of a movie now like um or or you know, presenter or whatever you wanted to put yourself on as. So, um, obviously I done it the long winded, the hardworking way, but it's a fun story, but as a business person, time is important and I I didn't I I don't want to be doing all of that all of the time, you know? It's too much [ __ ] time and effort. I would do acting again and all that just for a laugh. But yeah, so I I've done that and some of these stories are quite interesting just your way in and seeing how far you can push it. And you know from there I was even able to get an acting agent sign me up and all of this [ __ ] bollocks and had opportunities to do other TV and and film work which I've declined because there's not a lot of money in it unless you're you know going to Hollywood and and you know being in the new Star Wars or something. I'm sure there'd be a few quid in it. But

James Dooley: what on triggering knowledge panels? What about tell us about the Wikipedia stuff that happened as well.

Craig Campbell: Oh the Wikipedia stuff man. [ __ ] there's a funny story behind that. So for years again always wanted the Wikipedia just for my own ego really but obviously we know it's all a kind of source of trust and uh so tried for years and and you know even on Upwork I think it was 2015 and I put an ad up saying I need somebody to sort me out with a Wikipedia. Um and you know lots of people said oh I can do it I can do it I can do it. Anyway, people done it. It kind of get whipped down and and whatever. Um, and you know, my perception is that Wikipedia hate SEO people because we always manipulate stuff, edit stuff and all that. And you're not noteworthy enough. You you're supposed to be noteworthy to be on Wikipedia. So, you know, Mike should have a Wikipedia. You know, he's football legend. [ __ ] douchebags like us don't. But, you know, we're not. We're just [ __ ] SEO people. Um, so anyway, I I was talking to a guy who was a Wikipedia editor at Brighton SEO. He's a friend of mine and he he done Wikipedia editing for about 12 years. [ __ ] one of the highest people up in there like top top moderator and all that stuff. All his mates were all in there and he's like, Craig, I'm telling him a story. I'll [ __ ] sort you Wikipedia. I'm the I'm the [ __ ] main man and all that [ __ ] stuff. I'm like, mate, if you could do it, you'd be an absolute legend. and they'll pay you whatever you want, whatever. So, he's went away and done it and he's made the page. Do you like it, Craig? Blah blah blah. I said, "I'm going to submit it now to the wiki editors or whatever the process is." And uh and he comes back and they're going, "We're not sure about this to the guy. H we're not sure about this. We think this is a kind of commercial thing, like try to promote this guy." And I went, "No, no, no, no. This guy's a [ __ ] SEO legend and you know, he deserves one and all that." Uh, and they said to me, "You sure you want to proceed with this application?" I went, "Yep, I can vouch for them." And uh, they they come back with a [ __ ] screenshot of my Upwork asking for a Wikipedia for a Wikipedia. I don't know how they done it, but he get [ __ ] kicked off of being a moderator. Lost his account because of that. And the guy's like, "You motherfucker." He said, "You never [ __ ] told me you done that." I went, "I [ __ ] forgot I done that as well. like I stupidly done it in my own name. Um, and since then, you know, when I done the acting and that, uh, I tried a couple other times and a guy said to me, Craig, set it up in Portuguese, uh, with the acting thing. Don't mention SEO or none of that stuff. And I'm like, that was cool. So, we done the the Portugal one. Stuck for about 3, four months. Uh, and he said, right, what we'll now do is switch it to English. Um, and do the English one as well, and hopefully that sticks because the Portuguese ones there and all that stuff. Soon as the English one went up, the [ __ ] two of them went down. Um, and it, you know, there's a we red thing at the top and, you know, they leave a reason why they've taken it down. It said complete SEO puffery or words to that. This guy's an SEO and all this is all puffery. That was the word they used. I'm like, you [ __ ] charlatan. Somebody in there's got it in for me. But yeah, so I [ __ ] gave up the end. Um, but you can obviously pay guys to do it, but realistically, see, if you're not worthy enough and you've not got the press and all that stuff, um, to to back it up, um, then you're not getting it. And I'll tell you another fun story. The we guy, we bogdan, he's local to here. He's a Romanian guy and he's he does a bit of podcast production and and he dabbles in a bit of SEO and all that. Um and he was in the X Factor um like 10 years ago and we're in talking and he's like talking about knowledge panels and I'm like mate [ __ ] he's been in every paper every press there's [ __ ] videos on my YouTube and the X Factor and everything like I went uh mate you should be able to get a Wikipedia and an allies panel like that and he did he just joined the dots up together and even getting a a Wikipedia for him because he was able to site like 80 plus sources boom no bother. But he is not worthy enough to get that. I'm not. And that's the thing. And if you don't replicate that or do good PR or whatever, you're not going to get that. You need to build your brand if you really want that Wikipedia page. So, a lot of wasted money on that as well. So, and as much as my ego says I deserve one, I'm I'm a big dog SEO or whatever my my brain tells me, you know, you're you know, you're in a very niche market and you're a [ __ ] nobody in the grand scheme of Wikipedia. So, um, it's hard.

James Dooley: How important do you think a knowledge panel is and having a KGM ID in Google? Like now we're moving into the age of AI and stuff like that and being a known entity. How how important do you think it will be to have a knowledge panel?

Craig Campbell: I think more so now than it was previously. I think a lot of it was kind of ego chasing, but with AI looking for trusted sources and you know, Google's constantly looking for corroboration of if you say you're the top raceh horse guy or whatever, prove it. You know, where's the press that says this? Where's the trusted other entities that say that this is true? And if that's not there, then you're [ __ ] You know, the AI is not going to pick up. It's not going to trust it. Google are not going to trust it. So I think you know in the the age of AI now you know doing things that is trusted and a signal for Google is obviously going to be a positive thing and I think you know the knowledge panel is certainly a sign of trust you know you are uh not quite Wikipedia uh style famous as such but you know certainly from a Google trust perspective I think you've got to tick a lot of those boxes and join all of those dots together and then they go ah right he deserves there's a knowledge panel and here's these images and here's these social medias and all that stuff. So I think it's like a a a tick of authority uh from from that perspective. You know, do people really get a huge amount of traffic or or anything like that from it? I wouldn't imagine you do, but I think the trust and authority is the the big thing we're all trying to play into now. And you know, for feeding the LLM and everything else, I think having that and stuff like that is important. So

James Dooley: there's obviously different types of knowledge panel. You've got like a book can have a knowledge panel. A podcast can have one. Obviously people like yourself um me can have one. Um you can have a location one which is a Google business profile and a company can have one. How would you say away from let's say Craig Campbell as being an individual and a person having one? How important do you think it is to have a knowledge panel for like a Google business profile or corporate knowledge panel for the business? If you was to invest into a company and they don't have one, would that be one of the first things you'd be trying to sell?

Craig Campbell: Yeah. I mean, so I've got one for me as a person, but I've also got one for Craig Campbell SEO, which is just a business profile with the reviews and, you know, all of the other stuff. And I think, you know, again, signaling that trust that you're a real [ __ ] business is going to help with everything else that that goes on, you know, your your GMBB and and everything else. So if the Google can see that you are a real business and you really are there and you've got reviews and you've got all of those kind of trust signals, it would be one of the first parts of the uh process and and you know triggering a a business ones a hell of a lot easier than all the the crap that I had to to go through and and trying to trigger uh you know with all of those entities. You can do a lot of that with kind of citations and everything else for a for a business. So it's a bit somewhat easier but again it's the trust thing from a Google perspective and you know even when we were when I done that presentation in Manchester uh and stuff you know I paid to get the casbula dash uh knowledge panel triggered and we done a GMBB uh and all that kind of stuff people say why these are things that Google trust if you know if it's got a GMBB it's got a knowledge panel has it got this is it got that but you done part of that process as well with the Google books um under casbula dash and whatever else. Uh so it combining all of that is all part of what I would consider basic trust signals uh you know for any business and uh absolutely if I you know if you come to me a new business these are the first things I'd be doing.

James Dooley: Yeah for sure. Anyone who's watching this do you have a knowledge panel? Do you have a KGM ID? Do you even know how to check whether you've got one? Let us know whether you want us to take a deeper dive at some point into how to trigger them if you don't have one yet. I hope you like the episode on knowledge panels.