WEBVTT

NOTE
This file was generated by Descript 

00:00:00.210 --> 00:00:02.110
Rupert Isaacson: Welcome
to Equine Assisted World.

00:00:02.140 --> 00:00:05.260
I'm your host, Rupert Isaacson,
New York Times best selling

00:00:05.280 --> 00:00:08.330
author of The Horse Boy, The Long
Ride Home, and The Healing Land.

00:00:08.379 --> 00:00:11.889
Before I jump in with today's
guest, I just want to say a huge

00:00:12.000 --> 00:00:15.139
thank you to you, our audience,
for helping to make this happen.

00:00:15.229 --> 00:00:15.999
I have a request.

00:00:16.520 --> 00:00:22.009
If you like what we do, please
like, subscribe, tell a friend.

00:00:22.579 --> 00:00:24.319
It really helps us get this work done.

00:00:24.529 --> 00:00:27.299
As you might know from my
books, I'm an autism dad.

00:00:27.805 --> 00:00:30.645
And over the last 20 years,
we've developed several

00:00:31.345 --> 00:00:35.285
equine assisted, neuroscience
backed certification programs.

00:00:35.884 --> 00:00:38.485
If you'd like to find out more
about them, go to newtrailslearning.

00:00:40.664 --> 00:00:40.814
com.

00:00:41.065 --> 00:00:43.665
So without further ado,
let's meet today's guest.

00:00:44.419 --> 00:00:47.249
Welcome back to equine Assisted World.

00:00:47.309 --> 00:00:53.110
Today I've got Troy Shaw from NewLeaf
Triangle in Leicestershire in the uk.

00:00:53.569 --> 00:00:58.879
One of the reasons I'm really excited to
have him is I first met Troy, God we're

00:00:58.879 --> 00:01:00.800
gonna have to peel back through the years.

00:01:01.489 --> 00:01:05.330
It was somewhere, it was between
the Cretaceous and the plyo scene,

00:01:05.330 --> 00:01:08.879
I think roughly when the first
mammals appeared after the dinosaurs.

00:01:09.239 --> 00:01:16.000
And when I first met Troy, he was
manager at, I believe Pepsi Cola

00:01:16.149 --> 00:01:24.039
and Walker's Crisps, but a horseman
and his better half, Lorraine was

00:01:24.100 --> 00:01:28.620
also a horseman and working in a
special needs school in in the uk.

00:01:29.130 --> 00:01:35.130
And they made a switch, a rather sudden
switch to the equine assisted field.

00:01:35.500 --> 00:01:39.699
And I was in at the birth of
that and I watched them say,

00:01:39.699 --> 00:01:40.810
yeah, we're gonna do this.

00:01:41.410 --> 00:01:48.039
And I just watched them over the years
create this, massively successful

00:01:48.119 --> 00:01:55.820
massively positive service in the East
Midlands of the uk, really from nothing.

00:01:56.269 --> 00:01:59.719
But if you look at it now, you think, oh,
these guys must have, you know, come from

00:01:59.719 --> 00:02:05.089
so much money and because it's just, you
know, you've got two now, three locations.

00:02:05.089 --> 00:02:13.940
And so I think for the listeners and
the viewers to really know your story,

00:02:13.945 --> 00:02:18.469
Troy, Troy, of how you and Lorraine
bootstrapped this thing up, I think

00:02:18.469 --> 00:02:24.079
would be really educational for a lot of
us because you came in like through the

00:02:24.079 --> 00:02:28.489
back door and made it more successful
than a lot of people I know who've

00:02:28.489 --> 00:02:30.410
done it through a more Orthodox way.

00:02:30.769 --> 00:02:35.480
So tell us who you are, why
did you get involved in this?

00:02:35.870 --> 00:02:36.950
And yeah.

00:02:36.950 --> 00:02:39.320
And then let's go into how you've,
you've built this thing and what you do.

00:02:40.640 --> 00:02:41.029
Troy Shaw: Okay.

00:02:41.029 --> 00:02:41.690
Thank you very much.

00:02:41.929 --> 00:02:43.249
Thanks for the history lesson as well.

00:02:44.209 --> 00:02:45.770
I've forgotten all the dinosaur stuff.

00:02:46.100 --> 00:02:46.580
Rupert Isaacson: That's right.

00:02:46.580 --> 00:02:49.580
Well, you know, back in the
di we, we have, we have, yeah,

00:02:50.810 --> 00:02:52.310
Troy Shaw: it does feel
like a lifetime ago.

00:02:52.640 --> 00:02:53.210
Rupert Isaacson: It does.

00:02:53.480 --> 00:02:53.780
It does.

00:02:53.960 --> 00:02:54.650
Troy Shaw: So, yeah.

00:02:54.655 --> 00:02:57.519
So I'm, I'm Troy a director
at New Leaf Triangle.

00:02:58.389 --> 00:03:05.920
New Leaf Triangle started way back
in 2014, so sounds like not a long

00:03:05.920 --> 00:03:07.749
time ago, but it's a long time ago.

00:03:08.259 --> 00:03:15.160
And the change from that initial start
point in 2014 to where we are now is huge.

00:03:15.889 --> 00:03:19.099
It is pretty almost unrecognizable
to the service we provide today.

00:03:19.459 --> 00:03:19.819
Rupert Isaacson: Yeah.

00:03:20.299 --> 00:03:24.859
Troy Shaw: So from a history perspective,
really, so this is all Lorraine's

00:03:25.069 --> 00:03:30.439
my wife's and fellow director's
brainchild, so I'm just the pretty

00:03:30.439 --> 00:03:31.879
one, obviously in the partnership.

00:03:32.329 --> 00:03:33.319
Rupert Isaacson: Well, that's
why I had you on the show.

00:03:34.614 --> 00:03:39.959
Troy Shaw: So she, she was effectively a
operations manager for national Charity.

00:03:40.589 --> 00:03:45.779
And she spent most of her time in the
car up and down the country from one

00:03:45.779 --> 00:03:49.779
end to the other looking at different
services that was being provided.

00:03:50.469 --> 00:03:53.929
And I think by chance she met
you at one of the services she

00:03:53.929 --> 00:03:55.579
was working for or working at.

00:03:56.144 --> 00:03:56.809
And, and there's

00:03:56.809 --> 00:03:59.599
Rupert Isaacson: a funny story there
actually, which I wanna tell after this.

00:03:59.604 --> 00:04:00.604
Yeah, but you go on.

00:04:00.604 --> 00:04:00.804
Yeah.

00:04:01.159 --> 00:04:01.549
Troy Shaw: Yeah.

00:04:01.549 --> 00:04:06.349
And, and, and I think if I, if the story
I've got from that one is she, she said

00:04:06.349 --> 00:04:10.219
she'd met this interesting guy called
Rupert, you know, dressed like a cowboy.

00:04:10.589 --> 00:04:14.969
And I think I was working at Walker's
at the time for PepsiCo and she

00:04:14.969 --> 00:04:15.899
said, we're gonna go meet him.

00:04:16.979 --> 00:04:18.249
And it was like, oh okay.

00:04:18.279 --> 00:04:20.469
Where Oh, soho when?

00:04:20.709 --> 00:04:21.399
Tonight.

00:04:22.089 --> 00:04:23.559
So we both, and for those

00:04:23.559 --> 00:04:27.009
Rupert Isaacson: listeners who dunno what
he means by Soho, so this, they live up

00:04:27.009 --> 00:04:30.699
in, Troy and Lorraine live up in about
two and a half hours north of London.

00:04:30.819 --> 00:04:32.769
Soho is of course the middle of London.

00:04:33.159 --> 00:04:35.829
So she's telling him, no, we're
gonna drive, you know, two and

00:04:35.829 --> 00:04:38.439
a half, three hours to meet this
bloke that you've never heard of.

00:04:38.589 --> 00:04:38.649
Yeah.

00:04:38.989 --> 00:04:39.059
Yeah.

00:04:39.929 --> 00:04:40.589
Troy Shaw: Yeah, no.

00:04:40.589 --> 00:04:44.039
So we, we, we, I actually finished
work five o'clock or something.

00:04:44.249 --> 00:04:46.769
I think we actually got the train
in the end rather than drive.

00:04:47.219 --> 00:04:51.479
So we trundled down to soho, sat, I can't
even what the restaurant's name is now.

00:04:51.479 --> 00:04:55.259
But I just remember being like a, a
real whirlwind experience of like,

00:04:55.619 --> 00:04:58.109
you know, whoa, what's going on?

00:04:58.769 --> 00:04:58.979
Yes.

00:04:59.029 --> 00:05:02.494
And then then the, the train journey
back was just a, you know, like

00:05:02.494 --> 00:05:07.114
a head spinning moment of, oh,
Blamy, maybe we could do something.

00:05:07.114 --> 00:05:11.084
And the rain was like really hooked
on it and the opportunity arose

00:05:11.744 --> 00:05:16.214
and almost like the little nudge
you need to take that leap of faith

00:05:16.484 --> 00:05:18.584
and start something for ourselves.

00:05:19.454 --> 00:05:24.874
We al already had the facilities to an
extent, so we had the the land and the

00:05:24.874 --> 00:05:27.424
sites, but nothing like it is today.

00:05:27.994 --> 00:05:33.064
And so we had a sort of starting point and
a place to start from, but that's where

00:05:33.394 --> 00:05:35.104
the initial sort of kickoff came from.

00:05:36.424 --> 00:05:40.484
So 2014 it was right, let's go
and do this and let's go and

00:05:40.484 --> 00:05:41.594
register on company's house.

00:05:41.594 --> 00:05:44.924
And, you know, we're gonna start a
business that's predominantly working

00:05:44.924 --> 00:05:47.034
around young children with autism.

00:05:47.304 --> 00:05:49.554
That was Lorraine's
background, her specialism.

00:05:49.554 --> 00:05:53.244
So she's got a master's in
autism, so she's a really sort of

00:05:53.304 --> 00:05:55.134
academically clued up in the area.

00:05:56.094 --> 00:05:59.214
So it seemed like a natural
progression to go into that field.

00:06:00.024 --> 00:06:02.694
And it started off very, very steadily.

00:06:03.579 --> 00:06:07.419
With a, a couple of children
that came at the weekend.

00:06:08.199 --> 00:06:11.829
So, and I think one of them was one of
the guys you met years and years ago.

00:06:13.269 --> 00:06:19.149
And he, he was a very interesting
character and we sort of

00:06:19.149 --> 00:06:20.349
just did weekend activities.

00:06:20.739 --> 00:06:22.779
All we did was every Saturday and Sunday.

00:06:23.139 --> 00:06:23.379
Rupert Isaacson: Right.

00:06:23.379 --> 00:06:24.849
'cause you was, you still had
your day job at this point.

00:06:24.854 --> 00:06:25.419
I still, I was still

00:06:25.419 --> 00:06:28.989
Troy Shaw: working at Walker, so 2014
I was still at Walker's every day,

00:06:29.049 --> 00:06:30.429
so I volunteered at the weekends.

00:06:30.789 --> 00:06:31.059
Rupert Isaacson: Yeah.

00:06:31.299 --> 00:06:34.059
Troy Shaw: Who just sort of support
and get involved and learn really.

00:06:34.059 --> 00:06:39.429
So I, I've got no background in this,
so I had to learn through hands-on

00:06:39.429 --> 00:06:43.629
experience and trying to understand
the world of, you know, Lorraine's life

00:06:44.619 --> 00:06:46.274
and her background and stuff like that.

00:06:46.274 --> 00:06:49.869
I had to learn through putting my feet on
the ground and understanding it that way.

00:06:50.649 --> 00:06:53.109
So we had, we started for a
couple of students and I was

00:06:53.109 --> 00:06:54.189
still working at Walker's.

00:06:54.849 --> 00:07:01.339
And then we had another slightly older
child came during the week who was

00:07:01.909 --> 00:07:06.919
more, less on the autism side, but
more on the social emotional side and

00:07:06.919 --> 00:07:11.239
just needed some support in his own
sort of mental health and how he worked

00:07:11.239 --> 00:07:12.859
and how he saw the world and stuff.

00:07:13.219 --> 00:07:17.039
So Lorraine worked closely
with him on a one-to-one basis.

00:07:17.039 --> 00:07:20.489
I was still at Walkers again and they
were, they were doing things just

00:07:20.489 --> 00:07:23.459
like using the environment, using
the countryside, using the tools

00:07:23.579 --> 00:07:26.249
to hand to actually get involved
and build things and create things.

00:07:27.299 --> 00:07:29.519
Which is, is quite interesting
'cause Lorraine's background's

00:07:29.519 --> 00:07:30.569
not in creating things.

00:07:30.869 --> 00:07:32.219
So she was learning at the same time.

00:07:32.249 --> 00:07:34.869
So they were, they were building
things like little brick built

00:07:34.989 --> 00:07:37.479
goat hooks, which is like wow.

00:07:37.629 --> 00:07:38.409
From scratch.

00:07:38.919 --> 00:07:42.819
So they were both learning through,
you know, just doing it and exploring

00:07:43.839 --> 00:07:45.159
and that, that was sort of fantastic.

00:07:45.849 --> 00:07:49.809
So, but still very, very low coverage.

00:07:49.809 --> 00:07:52.239
So we still got the students at
the weekend and then this one

00:07:52.239 --> 00:07:54.309
child that came during the week.

00:07:54.534 --> 00:07:54.954
Mm-hmm.

00:07:55.479 --> 00:08:00.579
And then leaping forwards a little bit,
we started to work with a local college,

00:08:01.029 --> 00:08:05.889
a local special needs college, and they
would send several students over couple

00:08:05.889 --> 00:08:13.659
of times a week to use the environment
to start to explore the horses and try

00:08:13.659 --> 00:08:15.909
and build some of their own capability.

00:08:16.839 --> 00:08:18.849
And that, that went on
for a, a year or so.

00:08:19.509 --> 00:08:20.709
But again, it was just Lorraine.

00:08:21.069 --> 00:08:23.979
And I think by that time we
just employed somebody else on a

00:08:23.979 --> 00:08:26.349
part-time basis to support Lorraine.

00:08:27.339 --> 00:08:32.769
And then I noticed from the
background that she, Lorraine

00:08:32.769 --> 00:08:33.699
was having a lot of fun.

00:08:34.839 --> 00:08:36.249
And, and I wasn't funnily enough.

00:08:36.999 --> 00:08:41.649
So I was going to work in the morning at
six o'clock and when we both got home, at

00:08:41.649 --> 00:08:45.999
the end of the day, we were very different
people in our How's your day been?

00:08:46.299 --> 00:08:50.559
I was like, oh, you know, all this and
the finance and all the things you get in

00:08:50.559 --> 00:08:54.009
all the corporate world where Lorraine was
like, oh, I've done this, it's been great,

00:08:54.009 --> 00:08:56.979
and I've been building this, and I'm, you
know, it's like a bit, hang on a second.

00:08:56.979 --> 00:08:58.329
Something's not quite right here.

00:08:59.559 --> 00:09:05.109
So in 2016, as the work for us
started to increase, I took the

00:09:05.109 --> 00:09:07.239
gamble to leave my corporate job,

00:09:07.899 --> 00:09:10.104
Rupert Isaacson: which was a
hell of a risk, a massive risk.

00:09:10.239 --> 00:09:11.104
Very secure job.

00:09:11.214 --> 00:09:11.504
Yeah.

00:09:11.509 --> 00:09:15.009
You had a nice paycheck, you
know, you could support the

00:09:15.009 --> 00:09:16.719
work that Lorraine was doing.

00:09:17.329 --> 00:09:22.159
You pulling out of your corporate
job in a funny way, put that at risk.

00:09:22.569 --> 00:09:23.559
And yet you went for it.

00:09:23.659 --> 00:09:28.344
Talk to us about, like, did you have some
gut feeling that it would really be okay?

00:09:28.349 --> 00:09:30.259
'cause as you say, you didn't
have a background in this.

00:09:30.529 --> 00:09:33.829
What, what made you take that big leap?

00:09:34.339 --> 00:09:35.359
Because you're also a dad.

00:09:35.359 --> 00:09:38.269
I mean, you know, it's, you've got, you've
got financial commitments, you know, you,

00:09:40.249 --> 00:09:40.519
Troy Shaw: yeah.

00:09:40.849 --> 00:09:43.219
It's a real difficult one to answer,
but I think it's one of those things,

00:09:43.219 --> 00:09:45.769
you just work on emotions at the time.

00:09:45.979 --> 00:09:46.099
Rupert Isaacson: Mm-hmm.

00:09:46.639 --> 00:09:50.359
Troy Shaw: So you see
how your life is going.

00:09:51.334 --> 00:09:53.854
And the, the corporate world
where I was working was fantastic.

00:09:53.859 --> 00:09:55.204
It was a great company to work for.

00:09:55.474 --> 00:09:58.204
Had all the benefits you can have,
you know, the financial benefits

00:09:58.204 --> 00:10:01.919
of a a, a really good pension plan.

00:10:03.089 --> 00:10:06.269
So, you know, looking at the end goal of
a pension, you're thinking, oh, fantastic.

00:10:06.269 --> 00:10:08.279
I could just work up to that point.

00:10:08.879 --> 00:10:09.119
Rupert Isaacson: Yeah.

00:10:09.149 --> 00:10:12.209
Troy Shaw: But there was
just that missing ingredient.

00:10:12.539 --> 00:10:13.949
I could, I could see
Lorraine was having fun.

00:10:13.949 --> 00:10:16.799
And that's something you don't
normally see at work, is that right?

00:10:17.189 --> 00:10:20.549
Ingrained fun and, and you're seeing
people and making a difference.

00:10:20.939 --> 00:10:23.579
Sounds like a bit of a cliche, making
a difference, but you could actually

00:10:23.579 --> 00:10:24.359
physic you see the difference.

00:10:24.359 --> 00:10:24.899
Well, cliches

00:10:24.899 --> 00:10:25.949
Rupert Isaacson: a cliche
'cause they're true.

00:10:26.074 --> 00:10:26.714
Yeah, yeah.

00:10:26.734 --> 00:10:26.954
But

00:10:27.359 --> 00:10:30.329
Troy Shaw: you very often are
very seldom see that difference

00:10:30.569 --> 00:10:31.559
playing out in front of you.

00:10:32.099 --> 00:10:32.459
Rupert Isaacson: Yeah.

00:10:32.729 --> 00:10:38.329
Troy Shaw: You know, and so by this time
we were doing things like weekend camps.

00:10:38.599 --> 00:10:42.319
So during the summer holidays we'd
got our TPS up and we were bringing

00:10:42.319 --> 00:10:43.579
families in at the weekends.

00:10:43.609 --> 00:10:47.869
And I was working more and more
with students and I was getting

00:10:47.869 --> 00:10:51.409
more and more of the, seeing
more and more of the outcomes.

00:10:51.409 --> 00:10:52.399
Rupert Isaacson: Mm-hmm.

00:10:52.519 --> 00:10:54.799
Troy Shaw: And being part of the
outcomes and sort of just seeing

00:10:54.799 --> 00:11:01.189
how, not just individuals which had
a diagnosis, diagnosis of some kind.

00:11:01.194 --> 00:11:01.414
Rupert Isaacson: Mm-hmm.

00:11:01.514 --> 00:11:01.999
The whole

00:11:01.999 --> 00:11:03.979
Troy Shaw: family were benefiting
from what we were doing.

00:11:04.069 --> 00:11:04.129
Yeah.

00:11:05.419 --> 00:11:09.199
So I was getting, it's almost like
getting hooked on it, if that makes sense.

00:11:09.449 --> 00:11:10.994
Rupert Isaacson: I, I
absolutely know what you mean.

00:11:10.994 --> 00:11:13.874
'cause of course this is, it
describes a lot of my own journey too.

00:11:14.084 --> 00:11:14.204
Yeah.

00:11:14.204 --> 00:11:17.924
Even though of course I was, you
know, pulled into it 'cause of my son.

00:11:18.224 --> 00:11:18.494
Yeah.

00:11:18.524 --> 00:11:21.074
Very, very quickly I saw how
fulfilling this work was.

00:11:21.074 --> 00:11:21.719
Yeah, yeah.

00:11:21.719 --> 00:11:22.724
I know exactly what you mean.

00:11:23.084 --> 00:11:23.384
Troy Shaw: Yeah.

00:11:23.384 --> 00:11:26.834
And, and it, and it was sort of like
a, and I think one of the, one of the

00:11:26.834 --> 00:11:32.034
trigger points for me was we had a, a
family that came and they had a young

00:11:32.034 --> 00:11:34.884
boy who was preverbal at the time,

00:11:34.909 --> 00:11:35.259
Rupert Isaacson: Uhhuh,

00:11:36.144 --> 00:11:38.274
Troy Shaw: and he, he just wouldn't talk.

00:11:38.934 --> 00:11:40.734
His behavior was quite extreme.

00:11:40.974 --> 00:11:41.754
He wouldn't talk.

00:11:42.354 --> 00:11:47.404
And he came to us for family sessions
over the summer holidays and he

00:11:47.404 --> 00:11:53.464
camped and really, really quickly
he started talking and he started,

00:11:53.464 --> 00:11:56.464
just starts with a couple of words
and it starts with a few more words.

00:11:56.614 --> 00:11:59.734
And then, then the, how old
came, he was six at the time.

00:12:01.064 --> 00:12:04.064
I actually saw him when he came to
our 10 year anniversary last year.

00:12:04.064 --> 00:12:08.744
And he's like a, he's like a grownup now,
and he's so polite and he's articulate

00:12:08.744 --> 00:12:11.084
and it's like, it's a different person.

00:12:11.324 --> 00:12:11.564
Right.

00:12:11.569 --> 00:12:14.654
It's, it's such an amazing thing to
have been on that person's journey.

00:12:14.864 --> 00:12:15.284
Rupert Isaacson: Absolutely.

00:12:15.584 --> 00:12:17.594
Troy Shaw: And to be sort
of instru in the start.

00:12:18.044 --> 00:12:22.454
But he, he was in the very early days
and we did things like back riding.

00:12:23.564 --> 00:12:27.589
So he was on the horse with me, and
we'd be going round with some horr.

00:12:27.989 --> 00:12:28.189
Yeah.

00:12:28.689 --> 00:12:30.099
We'd, he'd be coming
round the arena with me.

00:12:30.099 --> 00:12:33.129
We'd be trotting around, cantering
around, and he'd be giggling and

00:12:33.129 --> 00:12:36.309
we'd be playing cowboys and, you
know, all things I like to do anyway.

00:12:36.309 --> 00:12:39.519
So all I was doing was just playing
at the same time as he was playing.

00:12:39.759 --> 00:12:40.284
Rupert Isaacson: Absolutely.

00:12:40.284 --> 00:12:43.689
Troy Shaw: And he was talking and
chatting away and, you know, and

00:12:43.689 --> 00:12:45.609
it became an addiction almost.

00:12:45.819 --> 00:12:46.209
Rupert Isaacson: Yes.

00:12:46.209 --> 00:12:49.539
Troy Shaw: So I wanted part of
that and I could see the benefit.

00:12:49.869 --> 00:12:54.339
It, like I say, it's a gamble, but
sometimes you can't regret what you try.

00:12:55.299 --> 00:12:55.569
Rupert Isaacson: No.

00:12:55.569 --> 00:12:57.159
And you've obviously made a go of it.

00:12:57.249 --> 00:13:00.519
What did you, did you, I'm just
thinking about other people who are

00:13:00.519 --> 00:13:01.929
listening now and, and watching.

00:13:02.199 --> 00:13:02.259
Yeah.

00:13:02.259 --> 00:13:04.899
Who might be thinking, well, you
know, maybe I'm in the same position.

00:13:04.899 --> 00:13:07.089
Troy was, maybe I've got a nice job.

00:13:07.359 --> 00:13:09.729
Maybe I'm feeling unfulfilled.

00:13:09.729 --> 00:13:11.979
Maybe I want to do this.

00:13:11.979 --> 00:13:13.449
Or my spouse is doing this.

00:13:13.670 --> 00:13:17.780
But I don't quite know how
I'm gonna take that leap.

00:13:18.170 --> 00:13:22.069
Is it, you know, fiscally responsible,
I've got kids, blah, blah, blah, blah.

00:13:22.280 --> 00:13:24.319
So obviously all of these
things went through your mind.

00:13:24.680 --> 00:13:24.800
Mm-hmm.

00:13:24.900 --> 00:13:26.400
How did you make a go of it?

00:13:26.579 --> 00:13:30.150
Like what, I know that there was a
point where you said, you know, sort it,

00:13:30.150 --> 00:13:32.339
I'm just going to have a go and do it.

00:13:32.490 --> 00:13:36.210
But at the same time, you would've
also had a plan in the back of

00:13:36.210 --> 00:13:40.560
your mind saying, okay, I have
to replace some of that security.

00:13:40.890 --> 00:13:41.160
Troy Shaw: Yeah.

00:13:41.400 --> 00:13:42.360
Rupert Isaacson: How am I gonna do that?

00:13:43.199 --> 00:13:46.189
Troy Shaw: So, we were lucky when I left
for, 'cause we got a little bit of money.

00:13:47.119 --> 00:13:50.899
Which we could use to effectively pay me.

00:13:51.139 --> 00:13:51.619
Rupert Isaacson: Okay.

00:13:51.709 --> 00:13:54.169
Troy Shaw: While in that transition
period, while we were sort of like

00:13:54.769 --> 00:13:58.069
growing the business, so we were, yeah.

00:13:58.549 --> 00:14:01.669
We, the risk was smaller,
but it was still a risk.

00:14:01.699 --> 00:14:03.649
'cause that partly never sort of lasted.

00:14:03.649 --> 00:14:03.859
Right.

00:14:03.859 --> 00:14:05.209
Rupert Isaacson: And you said
goodbye to the pension at

00:14:05.209 --> 00:14:06.289
that point, I should imagine.

00:14:06.349 --> 00:14:06.499
Troy Shaw: Yeah.

00:14:06.499 --> 00:14:07.699
The pension got frozen and that was it.

00:14:07.699 --> 00:14:07.759
Yeah.

00:14:07.759 --> 00:14:11.459
So there's no pension, so there's
no more golden handshake in 20 years

00:14:11.459 --> 00:14:13.110
time or 30 years time from there.

00:14:13.230 --> 00:14:13.350
Right.

00:14:13.810 --> 00:14:14.830
So that, that had gone.

00:14:15.490 --> 00:14:16.380
But it is I don't know.

00:14:16.830 --> 00:14:19.860
I think if I keep talking through this
now, I'm gonna, I'm gonna think of myself.

00:14:19.860 --> 00:14:20.610
Why did I do it?

00:14:20.670 --> 00:14:21.240
Oh my God.

00:14:21.240 --> 00:14:22.290
Rupert Isaacson: You
could go back to walkers.

00:14:22.290 --> 00:14:22.470
Yeah.

00:14:22.470 --> 00:14:22.530
I

00:14:22.530 --> 00:14:28.489
Troy Shaw: could've retired by now, but
it, we took the risk and there wasn't

00:14:28.489 --> 00:14:31.550
the income to cover me on my wages

00:14:31.939 --> 00:14:32.359
Rupert Isaacson: Right.

00:14:32.479 --> 00:14:33.170
Troy Shaw: At that time.

00:14:33.170 --> 00:14:34.699
So I was basically paying for myself.

00:14:35.060 --> 00:14:35.390
Rupert Isaacson: Yeah.

00:14:35.640 --> 00:14:37.020
Troy Shaw: And it is a huge risk.

00:14:37.740 --> 00:14:42.870
It's, I, I'm, I suppose one of the
reasons why it works so well with Lorraine

00:14:42.870 --> 00:14:46.590
now, we've both got very different
skill sets and different backgrounds.

00:14:46.590 --> 00:14:46.620
Okay.

00:14:47.219 --> 00:14:51.420
So, Lorraine, with her real in-depth
knowledge and her, I don't know,

00:14:51.750 --> 00:14:57.390
expertise in the field, not just of
autism, but of education itself as well.

00:14:57.390 --> 00:15:03.000
And her, her, I don't know, just
her sheer capability in that field

00:15:03.420 --> 00:15:03.689
Rupert Isaacson: Hmm.

00:15:03.750 --> 00:15:05.640
Troy Shaw: Gave me the confidence
to know that, you know what,

00:15:05.640 --> 00:15:06.750
we have got an expert here.

00:15:07.410 --> 00:15:07.530
Rupert Isaacson: Right.

00:15:07.530 --> 00:15:07.800
And then

00:15:07.800 --> 00:15:09.770
Troy Shaw: with me, with
my equine background.

00:15:10.070 --> 00:15:10.310
Rupert Isaacson: Yeah.

00:15:10.835 --> 00:15:14.525
Troy Shaw: It sort of fits well, so I
can, I could take on the horse side of

00:15:14.525 --> 00:15:19.895
things and make that work and make it
work safely and also develop horses and

00:15:19.895 --> 00:15:21.425
bring them to where they need to be.

00:15:21.965 --> 00:15:22.235
Right.

00:15:22.535 --> 00:15:27.485
Is still out there doing the, you know,
the, the, the real, the real hard work,

00:15:27.485 --> 00:15:30.425
the challenge you work, which is making
yourself credible with local authorities.

00:15:31.445 --> 00:15:31.895
Rupert Isaacson: Right.

00:15:32.015 --> 00:15:33.965
I think that's, that's the
key of where I want to get to.

00:15:33.965 --> 00:15:34.025
Yeah.

00:15:34.445 --> 00:15:38.185
And by the way for listeners and, and
viewers who don't know Troy's background,

00:15:38.185 --> 00:15:41.635
which I should have talked about earlier,
Troy came out of the household cavalry.

00:15:41.855 --> 00:15:46.265
So, and Leicestershire, which is
that area of the UK where they're

00:15:46.265 --> 00:15:49.925
operating from, which is partly
where I grew up as well, is a very,

00:15:49.925 --> 00:15:51.995
very, very entrenched horse culture.

00:15:51.995 --> 00:15:55.265
It's probably one of the big horse
cultures in the world, really.

00:15:55.265 --> 00:15:55.355
Mm-hmm.

00:15:55.955 --> 00:15:59.435
Jumping and cross country riding
as we know it was actually invented

00:15:59.435 --> 00:16:01.415
there in the late 18th century.

00:16:01.415 --> 00:16:02.315
It's an interesting history.

00:16:02.615 --> 00:16:06.775
So I know the background that
Troy comes out of in terms of that

00:16:06.775 --> 00:16:10.645
really solid old school horseman.

00:16:10.885 --> 00:16:17.995
This is how you produce like fit
muscle horses who are good in

00:16:17.995 --> 00:16:22.675
the head can do the job and can
stand up to work over 20 years.

00:16:22.775 --> 00:16:25.530
No problem with that kind of
equine wellbeing they call it now.

00:16:25.530 --> 00:16:25.810
Mm-hmm.

00:16:25.890 --> 00:16:27.755
When you and I were kids
they didn't call it that.

00:16:27.755 --> 00:16:30.245
They just call, call it a horse
that can do the job, you know?

00:16:30.575 --> 00:16:30.785
Yeah.

00:16:30.835 --> 00:16:33.865
But obviously the wellbeing's
a huge part of that, and it's

00:16:33.865 --> 00:16:34.795
interesting that you sort of.

00:16:36.565 --> 00:16:37.465
Brought that in.

00:16:37.465 --> 00:16:41.065
I think that that's often kind of
a missing link within the equine

00:16:41.065 --> 00:16:44.785
assisted world because a lot of
people that are attracted to it don't

00:16:44.785 --> 00:16:49.435
necessarily have that same solid
background that say you did coming out.

00:16:49.865 --> 00:16:54.485
But then you talked about, just
now, you touched on Lorraine making

00:16:54.485 --> 00:16:56.344
herself credible to local authorities.

00:16:56.344 --> 00:16:56.405
Yeah.

00:16:56.405 --> 00:17:01.295
And I guess that is the beginning
of talking about that financial

00:17:01.295 --> 00:17:04.355
security bit and the longevity piece.

00:17:04.954 --> 00:17:05.045
Yeah.

00:17:05.344 --> 00:17:08.315
Because as a lot of people know
who run these programs, if you are

00:17:08.554 --> 00:17:12.304
endlessly fundraising, and we talked
about this a little bit before I hit

00:17:12.525 --> 00:17:17.615
record you can get kind of caught in
a loop of never quite having enough.

00:17:17.615 --> 00:17:17.704
Mm-hmm.

00:17:18.444 --> 00:17:20.994
Whereas if you can get to that point
where you're being paid for your

00:17:20.994 --> 00:17:26.694
services properly by local authorities,
then you have that stability that

00:17:26.694 --> 00:17:32.475
say a school or so, you know, a a,
a mental health service would have

00:17:32.475 --> 00:17:35.115
that's, you know, un under government.

00:17:35.115 --> 00:17:41.205
So how did you guys
engineer that credibility?

00:17:41.205 --> 00:17:46.125
What, what was the sort of 1, 2, 3
learning curve that you had to go through?

00:17:46.305 --> 00:17:47.985
What steps did you have to implement?

00:17:49.065 --> 00:17:51.825
Troy Shaw: So I, I think probably
the biggest thing from a credibility

00:17:51.825 --> 00:17:54.315
perspective is having the paperwork.

00:17:55.590 --> 00:17:56.550
Sits in the background.

00:17:56.550 --> 00:18:01.889
So it's probably the, the most boring
side of the business is the paperwork

00:18:01.889 --> 00:18:04.919
and the procedures and the legislation
and all of those kind of things.

00:18:05.490 --> 00:18:09.990
But without those, you can't talk
the same language as the people that

00:18:09.990 --> 00:18:12.899
are potentially promoting you inside.

00:18:12.899 --> 00:18:14.040
Can you be specific?

00:18:14.040 --> 00:18:16.770
Rupert Isaacson: What, when you say
paperwork, what do you actually mean?

00:18:16.979 --> 00:18:20.189
Troy Shaw: Risk assessments for start, we
have risk assessment for everything we do.

00:18:20.189 --> 00:18:23.459
So every kind of activity
has its own risk assessment.

00:18:23.490 --> 00:18:27.540
And those risk assessments
grow as the business grows or

00:18:27.540 --> 00:18:29.200
as the world grows, I guess.

00:18:29.200 --> 00:18:33.820
'cause something new will be
found that now adds a, a, a need

00:18:33.820 --> 00:18:34.840
for another risk assessment.

00:18:35.110 --> 00:18:35.530
Rupert Isaacson: Mm.

00:18:36.070 --> 00:18:39.850
Troy Shaw: So they, they, they
tend to grow with the business, but

00:18:39.850 --> 00:18:44.140
then there's also the procedural
documentation, the how tos and stuff

00:18:44.140 --> 00:18:46.300
like that, which are also as important,

00:18:47.350 --> 00:18:47.860
Rupert Isaacson: right?

00:18:48.220 --> 00:18:54.290
Troy Shaw: So when you have those, when
you get those conversations of local

00:18:54.290 --> 00:18:58.340
authorities coming around to pay a visit
and you've got all that information to

00:18:58.340 --> 00:19:03.560
hand, they can almost si a, a bit of a
relief and go, oh, thank gosh for that.

00:19:04.250 --> 00:19:04.670
Rupert Isaacson: I see.

00:19:04.790 --> 00:19:06.380
Troy Shaw: They sort of know
what they're talking about.

00:19:07.100 --> 00:19:09.020
Rupert Isaacson: Because you, what
you're saying basically is these,

00:19:09.050 --> 00:19:13.860
the local authorities have an
obligation to provide these services.

00:19:13.980 --> 00:19:14.100
Yeah.

00:19:14.100 --> 00:19:18.000
But they can't provide these services
unless you make it possible for them to

00:19:18.300 --> 00:19:18.480
Troy Shaw: Yeah.

00:19:18.720 --> 00:19:20.040
Rupert Isaacson: By
speaking that language.

00:19:20.139 --> 00:19:22.899
How do you approach the services that you
know, because it's very interesting for

00:19:22.899 --> 00:19:26.469
me, as you know, I came up through a very
different route 'cause I was in Texas.

00:19:26.559 --> 00:19:26.649
Mm-hmm.

00:19:26.959 --> 00:19:29.449
There is no government money
for anything, you know, it's

00:19:29.449 --> 00:19:30.799
just completely the wild West.

00:19:31.309 --> 00:19:36.299
So there we absolutely had to rely
on fundraising, but of course,

00:19:36.329 --> 00:19:40.259
horse Boy foundation and horse boy
in general became a global thing.

00:19:40.259 --> 00:19:46.379
So now I'm fascinated by how each group
of people build it in their place.

00:19:46.619 --> 00:19:46.679
Yeah.

00:19:46.759 --> 00:19:51.709
So yeah, I, I would not even know
how to approach local authorities

00:19:51.709 --> 00:19:53.269
and, and so how does one do that?

00:19:53.749 --> 00:19:57.049
Troy Shaw: So we're, we're, it's a
real strange journey, to be honest.

00:19:57.049 --> 00:19:59.989
So when we, when we first started,
as you know, we did quite a lot of

00:19:59.989 --> 00:20:05.179
fundraising and we had grants and we
had a lot of help to initially get the

00:20:05.179 --> 00:20:09.019
business off the ground and to help us
with the facilities that were required.

00:20:09.619 --> 00:20:13.099
Well, we didn't get help with was
things like staff wages and how

00:20:13.099 --> 00:20:15.589
we pay for the animals, how we
pay for their food, vets bills.

00:20:15.589 --> 00:20:15.769
Right.

00:20:15.829 --> 00:20:16.459
All those things.

00:20:16.459 --> 00:20:18.169
Rupert Isaacson: Capital
costs, not running costs.

00:20:18.169 --> 00:20:18.409
Yeah,

00:20:18.409 --> 00:20:18.419
Troy Shaw: yeah,

00:20:18.419 --> 00:20:18.684
Rupert Isaacson: yeah.

00:20:19.039 --> 00:20:22.119
Troy Shaw: So, and this is where
that changeover period happened

00:20:22.119 --> 00:20:25.359
where we had to support ourselves
quite a lot in the early days.

00:20:25.539 --> 00:20:25.659
Rupert Isaacson: Mm-hmm.

00:20:26.079 --> 00:20:30.189
Troy Shaw: And it's, it sounds
almost impossible, but it's

00:20:30.189 --> 00:20:31.599
grown fairly organically.

00:20:32.049 --> 00:20:32.499
Rupert Isaacson: Yeah.

00:20:32.559 --> 00:20:36.669
Troy Shaw: So we, we in the initial
days sort of made ourselves known by

00:20:36.669 --> 00:20:39.819
going out to local, fair kind of thing.

00:20:39.819 --> 00:20:44.529
So we'd have like a, a, a big
open event at the Kerr Theater in

00:20:44.529 --> 00:20:48.459
Leicester where providers would
go and talk about what they did.

00:20:48.909 --> 00:20:49.389
Rupert Isaacson: Okay.

00:20:49.389 --> 00:20:52.269
Troy Shaw: And in those early days,
we, we had all the facilities, but

00:20:52.269 --> 00:20:53.649
we didn't have all of the students.

00:20:53.649 --> 00:20:55.179
We had, we can do this, we can do that.

00:20:55.299 --> 00:21:00.319
You know, we have all these horses
and we can help with the mental

00:21:00.319 --> 00:21:03.109
health with people, especially
around the autism side of things.

00:21:03.439 --> 00:21:03.529
Mm-hmm.

00:21:03.679 --> 00:21:05.119
But that was our offering at the time.

00:21:05.119 --> 00:21:05.209
Mm-hmm.

00:21:05.509 --> 00:21:11.089
And it's, we've not really
gone out and pedaled that.

00:21:11.089 --> 00:21:12.049
We've local authorities.

00:21:12.049 --> 00:21:16.279
What we've done is we've, we did
those faires in the first couple of

00:21:16.279 --> 00:21:19.699
early years, so 2015, 16, probably 17.

00:21:20.209 --> 00:21:20.569
Rupert Isaacson: Right.

00:21:20.659 --> 00:21:27.709
Troy Shaw: And as the students started to
roll in, it's grown through word of mouth.

00:21:28.669 --> 00:21:29.059
Rupert Isaacson: Yeah.

00:21:29.149 --> 00:21:31.099
Troy Shaw: And not, not through
our word of mouth, not from us

00:21:31.129 --> 00:21:36.269
going out and saying, you know,
we please come and do our program.

00:21:36.329 --> 00:21:37.259
This what we provide.

00:21:37.559 --> 00:21:39.149
It's grown through our customer base.

00:21:40.259 --> 00:21:40.649
Rupert Isaacson: Right.

00:21:40.649 --> 00:21:42.629
Because just the service
is a good service.

00:21:45.269 --> 00:21:46.799
Troy Shaw: I say, so local authorities

00:21:46.899 --> 00:21:47.979
Rupert Isaacson: so do they contact you?

00:21:47.979 --> 00:21:49.749
The local authorities
end up contacting you?

00:21:49.869 --> 00:21:50.079
Troy Shaw: Yeah.

00:21:50.079 --> 00:21:50.229
Or

00:21:50.229 --> 00:21:50.589
Rupert Isaacson: schools.

00:21:50.589 --> 00:21:51.009
Interesting.

00:21:51.279 --> 00:21:51.429
Yeah.

00:21:51.429 --> 00:21:51.519
So

00:21:52.089 --> 00:21:54.219
Troy Shaw: we don't, we, we don't
advertise, we don't chase business.

00:21:54.219 --> 00:21:55.479
We don't chase work at the moment.

00:21:55.999 --> 00:21:57.919
It is done organically
through word of mouth.

00:21:57.919 --> 00:21:58.249
So there was

00:21:58.249 --> 00:22:01.280
Rupert Isaacson: never a moment where
you were like knocking on the doors of

00:22:01.520 --> 00:22:03.709
schools and local health authorities?

00:22:03.709 --> 00:22:04.040
Troy Shaw: No.

00:22:04.254 --> 00:22:04.544
Rupert Isaacson: Okay.

00:22:04.645 --> 00:22:04.864
No.

00:22:05.189 --> 00:22:07.139
Troy Shaw: In the early days, like
I say, we'd go to these events where

00:22:07.139 --> 00:22:10.860
you'd sit in a room with other providers
who were doing a similar kind of

00:22:10.860 --> 00:22:14.979
thing, but not in the outdoors and
not with a horse boy method or with

00:22:15.080 --> 00:22:16.670
any kind of animal intervention Yeah.

00:22:16.820 --> 00:22:18.379
Or environment thoughts.

00:22:19.280 --> 00:22:20.660
It was all done.

00:22:21.379 --> 00:22:23.860
You know, we just went to these open
days where we'd stand there for the

00:22:23.860 --> 00:22:25.959
day in front of a big flip chart.

00:22:25.959 --> 00:22:29.110
We have lots of pictures of the
activities we'd done at the weekend.

00:22:29.800 --> 00:22:29.949
Mm-hmm.

00:22:30.189 --> 00:22:32.800
I, I, I would probably
go dressed as a cowboy.

00:22:33.249 --> 00:22:35.050
'cause it always generates
interest when you go there.

00:22:35.050 --> 00:22:35.379
It does.

00:22:35.379 --> 00:22:36.010
Absolutely.

00:22:36.280 --> 00:22:36.879
And look at you and go,

00:22:36.969 --> 00:22:38.139
Rupert Isaacson: always
wear those britches.

00:22:38.979 --> 00:22:39.070
Yeah, I always do.

00:22:39.070 --> 00:22:39.820
Can start a conversation.

00:22:39.879 --> 00:22:39.969
Yeah.

00:22:40.209 --> 00:22:41.320
Troy Shaw: Well, let's not
go down that one again.

00:22:41.770 --> 00:22:45.340
But then, but then, but then it
generates people's interest and intrigue

00:22:45.340 --> 00:22:50.080
and you start talking and, and it's
quite easy to talk about these things

00:22:50.080 --> 00:22:52.630
with a real huge degree of passion.

00:22:53.020 --> 00:22:53.500
Rupert Isaacson: Yes.

00:22:53.650 --> 00:22:55.180
Troy Shaw: And once you
do that, people get.

00:22:55.614 --> 00:22:59.215
Hooked on it doesn't mean you're gonna
generate the income, but people will

00:22:59.215 --> 00:23:04.354
start to remember and start to think
about you in their, in their day to day

00:23:04.354 --> 00:23:06.454
and the what ifs, et cetera, et cetera.

00:23:06.934 --> 00:23:07.144
Rupert Isaacson: Yeah.

00:23:07.144 --> 00:23:07.204
So

00:23:07.684 --> 00:23:10.594
Troy Shaw: we, that, that's how we
sort of put ourselves out there.

00:23:10.594 --> 00:23:12.394
We didn't go knocking on people's doors.

00:23:14.404 --> 00:23:19.624
What of one of the things actually did
change and had a big massive credibility

00:23:19.624 --> 00:23:21.034
thing for us in the early days.

00:23:21.304 --> 00:23:21.394
Mm-hmm.

00:23:21.485 --> 00:23:24.544
I used to work with a, a young
lad over the weekends who used to

00:23:24.544 --> 00:23:26.104
come with his mother and father.

00:23:26.794 --> 00:23:30.004
And he, he was really, really unconfident.

00:23:31.235 --> 00:23:34.354
You know, I can't remember how old he was
at the time, but he was fairly unconfident

00:23:34.714 --> 00:23:41.104
and what we did, it got him to a point
where he came with me to a local council

00:23:41.104 --> 00:23:46.204
meeting at night and talked about what
we did ah, and how it changed his life.

00:23:46.204 --> 00:23:48.364
And he sort of sat there and
this, this is a guy who's fairly

00:23:48.364 --> 00:23:51.725
unconfident and he's, he's sitting
in front of this crowd of people all

00:23:51.725 --> 00:23:55.024
staring up at him on the platform
and he's talking about what he does.

00:23:55.924 --> 00:23:59.314
And that was like a, you know,
that was a proper moment.

00:23:59.824 --> 00:24:01.204
Rupert Isaacson: Yeah, yeah.

00:24:01.204 --> 00:24:02.374
No, it's, it's intriguing to me.

00:24:02.374 --> 00:24:06.834
'cause I had assumed, I had assumed
that having watched your progress over

00:24:06.834 --> 00:24:11.214
the, the last years, I'd assumed that
you had a mechanism for approaching

00:24:11.364 --> 00:24:12.714
the authorities and the schools.

00:24:13.114 --> 00:24:15.784
So I'm intrigued actually that
it was the other way around.

00:24:16.084 --> 00:24:16.264
Yeah.

00:24:16.364 --> 00:24:19.064
You know, I just, here, I want
to back up a little bit because I

00:24:19.064 --> 00:24:20.594
said I had a funny story to tell.

00:24:20.955 --> 00:24:23.295
About that night that, you know, we met.

00:24:23.685 --> 00:24:26.835
But I think it's not just funny, it's,
it's sort of poignant because I think

00:24:26.835 --> 00:24:33.825
it also does serve as, you know, if,
if someone is listening to this and

00:24:33.825 --> 00:24:39.075
they're hovering about whether or not
they should take the leap to do something

00:24:39.075 --> 00:24:40.455
like what you've done or what I've done.

00:24:40.885 --> 00:24:46.060
So as, as you know, Troy the, the way
it happened was I had actually been sent

00:24:46.060 --> 00:24:51.200
to have a meeting with this school in
Buckinghamshire, I think it was which

00:24:51.200 --> 00:24:55.130
was a residential school for kids with
slightly, you know, severe autism and had

00:24:55.130 --> 00:25:01.010
been set up by somebody who runs charities
in the UK and they said, oh, this is quite

00:25:01.010 --> 00:25:02.630
a big organization and you should go.

00:25:02.630 --> 00:25:04.670
And so they said, yeah, we'll
talk to this Rupert guy.

00:25:04.670 --> 00:25:10.470
So, I show up as you say, you know, in
my cowboy boots and everything and as

00:25:10.470 --> 00:25:12.480
I'm, I, I approach this huge building.

00:25:12.480 --> 00:25:14.940
'cause of course it's an
old stately home right.

00:25:15.000 --> 00:25:17.400
Set in Parkland and
think, oh, this is nice.

00:25:17.400 --> 00:25:19.620
You know, kids must be
running around in nature.

00:25:19.620 --> 00:25:22.710
And, and of course I, there's not
a kid in sight under the trees.

00:25:23.040 --> 00:25:25.860
And then I go in and inside
it's just like a prison.

00:25:26.460 --> 00:25:26.700
Troy Shaw: Yeah.

00:25:26.790 --> 00:25:31.900
Rupert Isaacson: And then I'm sat
there in the room waiting for the

00:25:31.900 --> 00:25:33.130
people to come in to talk to me.

00:25:33.640 --> 00:25:37.300
And I see down in the courtyard,
below the window, there's this

00:25:37.300 --> 00:25:39.490
autistic boy with a minder.

00:25:40.360 --> 00:25:41.200
And.

00:25:42.100 --> 00:25:43.960
The boy is clearly miserable.

00:25:44.620 --> 00:25:44.650
Troy Shaw: Mm.

00:25:44.700 --> 00:25:49.680
Rupert Isaacson: Crying and yeah,
let's just say expressing suffering

00:25:50.490 --> 00:25:59.100
and the young-ish minder male,
just not engaged, just impatient.

00:25:59.160 --> 00:26:02.220
Just, and the, and,
and, you know, concrete.

00:26:02.280 --> 00:26:05.250
And, you know, I've just come
from, and I, I'm gonna talk to

00:26:05.250 --> 00:26:08.580
these guys about horse boy method
and movement, method and nature.

00:26:08.580 --> 00:26:11.790
And like, they're, they're, they're just,
they're not gonna be interested, you know?

00:26:11.790 --> 00:26:16.410
And so, sure enough, you know, the
people come in and I give them my, my

00:26:16.410 --> 00:26:19.920
spiel and I can just see their eyes
going, well, we are not gonna do this.

00:26:20.460 --> 00:26:21.750
And of course, Lorraine was in the room.

00:26:21.750 --> 00:26:22.650
She was one of the people.

00:26:23.110 --> 00:26:24.760
And I couldn't read her at all.

00:26:24.760 --> 00:26:31.030
I was just, but I could read that
this was not gonna be a trip that was

00:26:31.030 --> 00:26:34.210
gonna result in horse boy method or
movement method being in this school.

00:26:34.210 --> 00:26:34.810
That was clear.

00:26:35.080 --> 00:26:38.920
And it made me very sad because I
was like, wow, you guys are gonna

00:26:39.250 --> 00:26:42.910
really make the decision to just
effectively do the wrong thing.

00:26:42.910 --> 00:26:42.970
Yeah.

00:26:43.470 --> 00:26:50.190
And okay, you may not like me, but there
is no there's no question anymore among

00:26:50.190 --> 00:26:53.940
the neuroscientists that if you want
mental health, good mental health, you've

00:26:53.940 --> 00:26:56.160
gotta have nature, you've gotta have
movement, you've gotta have these things.

00:26:56.160 --> 00:26:57.870
You've gotta have compassion, you know?

00:26:57.870 --> 00:26:59.940
So whether it's me or someone
else, you, you're gonna have

00:26:59.940 --> 00:27:00.960
to make some sort of change.

00:27:01.620 --> 00:27:05.910
But Lorraine, your wife
then pulled me aside.

00:27:06.915 --> 00:27:12.915
After that meeting and said, can't
talk here, can we go get a coffee?

00:27:12.915 --> 00:27:15.855
And I was like, sure.

00:27:16.305 --> 00:27:21.465
And so I had to then go take a taxi
to go get a train from Ailsbury or

00:27:21.465 --> 00:27:25.395
wherever it was, back into London
to, and so we agreed to meet there.

00:27:25.455 --> 00:27:29.805
And Lorraine just said, and obviously,
you know, your wife is somebody

00:27:29.805 --> 00:27:30.885
who gets things done, you know?

00:27:30.975 --> 00:27:31.095
Yeah.

00:27:31.100 --> 00:27:31.390
Oh yeah.

00:27:31.395 --> 00:27:34.155
She sort of just took me aside and
said, Ru all right, I heard it.

00:27:35.145 --> 00:27:36.045
Absolutely.

00:27:36.495 --> 00:27:39.615
I wanna do this, but I
wanna do this privately.

00:27:40.155 --> 00:27:40.335
Yeah.

00:27:40.335 --> 00:27:44.085
And I'm like, wow, I'm so, how glad
am I that I went to that meeting?

00:27:44.565 --> 00:27:49.875
Because I can tell that you're one of
those people that if you say you're

00:27:49.875 --> 00:27:54.255
gonna do something, you're gonna do
something that's clear and that there's

00:27:54.255 --> 00:28:00.255
gonna be a way greater reach from that
than there would've been if I, you

00:28:00.255 --> 00:28:03.525
know, if the school decided to implement
what we did in a half our sort of way.

00:28:04.075 --> 00:28:06.535
And then of course she said, but you
know, I need to talk to my husband.

00:28:06.865 --> 00:28:10.435
And I said, well, you know, I'm only in
London, in England for a couple of days,

00:28:10.435 --> 00:28:15.325
and I'm meeting some of the other horse
boy people in this restaurant in Soho.

00:28:15.325 --> 00:28:17.815
I mean, it's a long shot,
but do you guys wanna come?

00:28:17.815 --> 00:28:18.775
She goes, yes, we'll be there.

00:28:18.985 --> 00:28:21.685
I'm like, damn, you really
are serious, aren't you?

00:28:21.835 --> 00:28:24.655
And then you think, well, maybe she'll
show up, maybe she won't, you know?

00:28:24.655 --> 00:28:28.405
And then we're all there in the
restaurant and then you guys show up.

00:28:28.825 --> 00:28:30.745
And I'm like, they showed up.

00:28:31.195 --> 00:28:32.215
That's impressive.

00:28:32.705 --> 00:28:35.015
And ever since then, I've
just watched you, you do it.

00:28:35.165 --> 00:28:40.545
So, but because as you say Lorraine who's
this driving force and has this very

00:28:40.545 --> 00:28:44.115
good academic background, and of course,
you know, a lot of knowledge of the

00:28:44.115 --> 00:28:49.155
institutions, I assumed that she had been
able to go directly to the institutions

00:28:49.515 --> 00:28:50.955
and drum up that business for you.

00:28:50.955 --> 00:28:53.925
So I'm actually very
intrigued to hear that.

00:28:53.925 --> 00:28:54.315
No, no.

00:28:54.315 --> 00:28:56.505
It wasn't done that way,
that it was the opposite.

00:28:56.505 --> 00:29:00.765
It was more exactly what we did at Horse
Boy with bootstrapping up and just sort

00:29:00.765 --> 00:29:03.465
of saying, here is something that works.

00:29:03.825 --> 00:29:06.645
And then people going, yeah, it does work.

00:29:06.825 --> 00:29:09.315
And then going and talking to their
friends and going, this thing works,

00:29:09.855 --> 00:29:11.445
and then the authorities coming to you.

00:29:11.445 --> 00:29:15.015
I, I had assumed it was the other way
around, so thank you for, so, so for

00:29:15.015 --> 00:29:20.105
those, for those listeners and viewers
who maybe are hovering, you know, just

00:29:20.105 --> 00:29:26.405
take a little bit of a, of a page of a
leaf out of New Leaf Triangle that both

00:29:26.405 --> 00:29:33.695
Lorraine and Troy made these kinds of
instinctive, emotional, intuitive leaps

00:29:33.875 --> 00:29:43.415
despite coming out of very secure jobs
that you guys could have just stayed

00:29:43.415 --> 00:29:46.805
doing what you were doing and run your
thing off at the side at weekends, right?

00:29:46.805 --> 00:29:46.865
Yeah.

00:29:47.375 --> 00:29:50.825
You know, so to make that
leap again, it's, it's, it's,

00:29:50.825 --> 00:29:52.055
it's, it's just so impressive.

00:29:52.310 --> 00:29:52.400
There,

00:29:53.330 --> 00:29:55.580
Troy Shaw: there's always gonna be a risk
where everything you do isn't there, so.

00:29:55.675 --> 00:29:55.995
Mm-hmm.

00:29:56.075 --> 00:29:58.970
You know, there's probably just
as much risk as not doing it.

00:30:00.290 --> 00:30:00.620
Rupert Isaacson: Yeah.

00:30:00.620 --> 00:30:02.300
But it's, it's interesting to hear you.

00:30:02.570 --> 00:30:05.870
I'm used to that sort of thing, I would
say, because I've never had a job.

00:30:05.900 --> 00:30:06.200
Right.

00:30:06.200 --> 00:30:10.130
I mean, you know, I've
always been, you know, me.

00:30:10.320 --> 00:30:10.330
Yeah.

00:30:10.380 --> 00:30:12.570
But, so I've always been a freelancer.

00:30:13.470 --> 00:30:18.240
So that sort of insecurity, you know,
I, I, I, I won't say I've always enjoyed

00:30:18.240 --> 00:30:19.760
it, but you know, I'm used to it.

00:30:20.120 --> 00:30:23.390
But you guys were, you know, even
before you were in the corporate

00:30:23.390 --> 00:30:24.170
world, you're in the Army.

00:30:24.170 --> 00:30:25.850
And in the Army they look after you.

00:30:25.850 --> 00:30:26.060
Right.

00:30:26.060 --> 00:30:28.100
You know, you're not gonna worry about
your paycheck, you're not gonna worry

00:30:28.100 --> 00:30:29.840
about, you know, things like that.

00:30:29.840 --> 00:30:35.120
You, you are to a large degree, you know,
it's, well, it is a corporate environment.

00:30:35.120 --> 00:30:37.010
Corporate environment is
basically based on the merger.

00:30:37.040 --> 00:30:37.310
Corporate.

00:30:37.310 --> 00:30:37.430
Troy Shaw: Yeah.

00:30:37.880 --> 00:30:43.490
Rupert Isaacson: So, given that you, you
hadn't had that, you know, you were not

00:30:43.580 --> 00:30:49.370
used to being a freelancer in that way
and having that insecurity, how difficult

00:30:49.370 --> 00:30:50.960
was it for you to make the adjustment?

00:30:53.990 --> 00:30:57.950
Troy Shaw: I don't think it, I can't
remember being difficult at all.

00:30:59.240 --> 00:31:01.820
'cause I think, I think all of the
challenges that come with making

00:31:01.820 --> 00:31:07.760
these big leaps and stuff like that,
were far outweighed by the fun.

00:31:09.230 --> 00:31:09.500
Okay.

00:31:09.500 --> 00:31:10.880
It, it, it almost sounds impossible.

00:31:11.090 --> 00:31:13.400
And I don't wanna make it sound
like it's this big fairytale

00:31:13.400 --> 00:31:14.840
world 'cause it's not, it's hard.

00:31:15.200 --> 00:31:17.630
But the stuff we were doing.

00:31:18.440 --> 00:31:22.790
Especially in the early
days, it was so, so much fun.

00:31:23.180 --> 00:31:23.570
Rupert Isaacson: Yeah.

00:31:23.960 --> 00:31:27.320
Troy Shaw: That you are able to forget
that I might have a bill to pay tomorrow.

00:31:27.320 --> 00:31:30.560
That's actually quite large and I've gotta
find the money for that from somewhere.

00:31:30.950 --> 00:31:31.340
Rupert Isaacson: Yeah.

00:31:31.410 --> 00:31:33.990
Troy Shaw: Or there's a vet's bill that
we've now got to try and cover because,

00:31:33.990 --> 00:31:35.610
you know, that's what animals do.

00:31:35.670 --> 00:31:41.340
But it, yeah, it was all far
outweighed by the positivity

00:31:41.340 --> 00:31:42.750
out of it, if that makes sense.

00:31:42.755 --> 00:31:43.800
So what I, so, and

00:31:43.800 --> 00:31:44.670
Rupert Isaacson: I so hear you.

00:31:44.730 --> 00:31:48.900
And I think this is, this is,
this is, you know, just not

00:31:48.900 --> 00:31:50.790
talked about enough in our field.

00:31:50.790 --> 00:31:55.230
It, it particularly nowadays that
it's becoming like a field, you know,

00:31:55.230 --> 00:31:58.650
because 10 years ago when you and
I were first sort of doing it, it

00:31:58.650 --> 00:32:02.400
wasn't a field, it was just people
like you and me doing this thing.

00:32:02.400 --> 00:32:04.860
And now there's this thing called
equine assisted stuff and it's all

00:32:04.920 --> 00:32:07.560
quite serious, so you can take degrees
in it now and blah, blah, blah.

00:32:07.680 --> 00:32:13.530
But that didn't, so the crack
the fun was the whole point.

00:32:13.530 --> 00:32:17.670
And I'm a great believer that if
that is not there, it doesn't work.

00:32:17.970 --> 00:32:18.150
Troy Shaw: No.

00:32:18.200 --> 00:32:22.280
Rupert Isaacson: Because you're not gonna
fire those neurons in the brain of, of

00:32:22.280 --> 00:32:23.840
the service user, if you wanna call it.

00:32:23.870 --> 00:32:24.080
Yeah.

00:32:24.080 --> 00:32:27.000
You know, whether child or adult
the fun is the inspiration.

00:32:27.000 --> 00:32:30.810
It's the fire, it's the spark,
it's the and I think the fun is a

00:32:30.810 --> 00:32:32.850
little bit going from our field.

00:32:32.880 --> 00:32:36.870
I, I, you know, I, I'm off to, to
another conference in a few days.

00:32:37.380 --> 00:32:40.350
And I can be pretty sure that.

00:32:41.205 --> 00:32:43.275
Fun will not be high on the
list of what's talked about.

00:32:43.635 --> 00:32:45.585
I, I, I will make sure
it gets talked about.

00:32:45.865 --> 00:32:45.985
Yeah.

00:32:45.990 --> 00:32:49.705
And people will probably roll their
eyes, but talk to us about fun.

00:32:49.915 --> 00:32:51.385
Why does fun work?

00:32:51.535 --> 00:32:53.305
Why is fun the key here?

00:32:53.965 --> 00:32:56.195
Troy Shaw: Because I, I think the,
the big key with fun and the, and

00:32:56.195 --> 00:33:01.140
the thing about fun, if it's genuine,
no, there's no disguise in it.

00:33:01.490 --> 00:33:01.780
Rupert Isaacson: Yeah.

00:33:01.880 --> 00:33:05.060
Troy Shaw: You can't hide away from
the funds aspect, and you can't hide

00:33:05.060 --> 00:33:06.835
away from, you can't make it up.

00:33:06.835 --> 00:33:07.585
It's not false.

00:33:08.095 --> 00:33:08.515
Rupert Isaacson: Yeah.

00:33:08.635 --> 00:33:11.935
Troy Shaw: And I know of our students
and families and stuff, when they

00:33:11.935 --> 00:33:14.575
see genuine fun, it's addictive.

00:33:15.325 --> 00:33:16.225
They, they want in.

00:33:16.435 --> 00:33:18.205
Rupert Isaacson: Right, because
that's quality of life, isn't it?

00:33:18.210 --> 00:33:18.760
That's mental.

00:33:18.895 --> 00:33:19.495
That's positive.

00:33:19.495 --> 00:33:20.725
Mental health is fun, right?

00:33:20.905 --> 00:33:21.205
Troy Shaw: Yeah.

00:33:21.535 --> 00:33:24.295
So when, once they're, once they're in
there and they're, they're feeling that

00:33:24.295 --> 00:33:28.285
oxytocin and, you know, they're, they're
getting involved and they, especially

00:33:28.285 --> 00:33:33.305
in the early days when you'd get parents
who were really wound up, you know,

00:33:33.365 --> 00:33:38.645
wound up tight because of their a the
stigma that sometimes their children

00:33:38.645 --> 00:33:40.835
represent maybe in a supermarket or Yeah.

00:33:40.835 --> 00:33:41.735
Just in general life.

00:33:42.155 --> 00:33:45.815
When they saw that
actually it's not that bad.

00:33:46.655 --> 00:33:49.210
You know, there's people here
that are prepared to have a, a

00:33:49.215 --> 00:33:52.505
proper laugh and, you know, get
involved and do some stupid things.

00:33:52.775 --> 00:33:53.135
Rupert Isaacson: Yeah.

00:33:53.185 --> 00:33:56.185
Troy Shaw: And they themselves
could go, oh, blind me.

00:33:56.270 --> 00:34:00.115
I, I can actually reconnect with my
children and have a laugh myself.

00:34:00.655 --> 00:34:06.385
You know, some, some, some of the real
milestones is when you get a, a, a father.

00:34:07.390 --> 00:34:08.800
Who's, you know, oh, I'm
not gonna do anything.

00:34:08.800 --> 00:34:11.260
I'm gonna sit in the corner
and get my iPhone out, or do

00:34:11.260 --> 00:34:12.280
whatever and just read a book.

00:34:12.280 --> 00:34:15.550
Or getting those involved and being silly.

00:34:15.910 --> 00:34:16.300
Rupert Isaacson: Yeah.

00:34:16.480 --> 00:34:18.880
Troy Shaw: The, the, the benefit for
the whole family was just phenomenal.

00:34:18.910 --> 00:34:21.370
'cause you can see there's a, there's
light switches going off everywhere

00:34:21.370 --> 00:34:22.660
and everyone's going, blow me.

00:34:22.660 --> 00:34:24.340
The child's going, that's my dad.

00:34:24.340 --> 00:34:26.410
And he's, he's messing
about what's going on here.

00:34:26.845 --> 00:34:29.770
And then the child, this parent
would be going, hang on a minute,

00:34:29.770 --> 00:34:31.390
I've not done this for centuries.

00:34:31.735 --> 00:34:32.025
Rupert Isaacson: Yeah.

00:34:32.205 --> 00:34:33.265
Troy Shaw: So it's a,

00:34:34.565 --> 00:34:35.185
Rupert Isaacson: it's a, yeah.

00:34:35.185 --> 00:34:35.470
Fun.

00:34:35.470 --> 00:34:36.220
Real fun.

00:34:37.090 --> 00:34:44.050
Is life changing in to, what I
mean by that is back the idea of

00:34:44.050 --> 00:34:45.940
neurons and new neural pathways.

00:34:46.690 --> 00:34:47.410
What is fun?

00:34:47.410 --> 00:34:55.930
But exploration and l and curiosity and
looking at new, even the same situation

00:34:55.930 --> 00:34:57.790
through new eyes or new perspective.

00:34:58.420 --> 00:35:00.490
And of course, that's going to
have a knock on effect, isn't it?

00:35:00.490 --> 00:35:03.520
That's gonna mean that you can then
go and look at your own situation

00:35:03.730 --> 00:35:07.330
or things that you thought were
closed doors and go, well, hold on.

00:35:07.330 --> 00:35:10.360
Actually, no, maybe there's a way around,
because this perspective I had through

00:35:10.360 --> 00:35:16.755
humor I I is now generalizing over to,
you know, perspectives on, you know Yeah.

00:35:16.755 --> 00:35:17.835
Day-to-day stuff.

00:35:18.465 --> 00:35:19.845
Talk to us about silliness.

00:35:19.845 --> 00:35:21.405
I mean, I, I like that you bring this up.

00:35:21.615 --> 00:35:23.595
I mean, obviously we, Brits
are quite silly people.

00:35:23.965 --> 00:35:25.255
We pretend not to be, but we are.

00:35:25.505 --> 00:35:27.935
But you know, through
the years I've known you.

00:35:28.325 --> 00:35:31.925
I love that you've got this whimsical
side to you, you know, because you

00:35:31.925 --> 00:35:35.255
were this army dude, and then you
were this corporate dude, but you

00:35:35.255 --> 00:35:40.655
love to dress up, you love to mess
about, you have these passions that

00:35:40.655 --> 00:35:43.835
are outside of the therapeutic side.

00:35:43.835 --> 00:35:46.715
Like you, you, you know, you've
got this big thing with mounted

00:35:46.715 --> 00:35:51.775
archery but you also love to go
and ride on movie sets and Yeah.

00:35:51.805 --> 00:35:52.795
Play, dress up and do all that.

00:35:52.795 --> 00:35:55.585
And you bring that of
course, into the sessions.

00:35:56.215 --> 00:35:58.105
Talk to us about that whimsical thing.

00:35:58.105 --> 00:36:08.215
What, what do you think, what does that
spark in the child or the family when they

00:36:08.215 --> 00:36:10.795
see you getting up in medieval gear or you

00:36:11.635 --> 00:36:15.470
Troy Shaw: I, yeah, I think, I think
it's the, it's really hard to sort of

00:36:15.470 --> 00:36:18.570
put into words, but when I get, if I
get dressed up in something, I don't

00:36:18.570 --> 00:36:19.530
feel like I'm getting dressed up.

00:36:19.530 --> 00:36:22.830
I just feel like I'm putting some
clothes on today, but today I'm gonna be,

00:36:23.190 --> 00:36:23.640
Rupert Isaacson: yes.

00:36:23.690 --> 00:36:25.100
Troy Shaw: And it, but taking on a role,

00:36:25.160 --> 00:36:25.520
Rupert Isaacson: right?

00:36:25.550 --> 00:36:25.760
Troy Shaw: Yeah.

00:36:25.765 --> 00:36:28.520
And it, it's just, it's, and I,
and I think it, again, it comes

00:36:28.520 --> 00:36:31.280
across as like fairly genuine.

00:36:31.670 --> 00:36:32.090
Rupert Isaacson: Yes.

00:36:32.180 --> 00:36:34.400
Troy Shaw: I'm not, I'm not,
I'm not putting clothes on to

00:36:34.400 --> 00:36:36.320
acts and I'm not playing a role.

00:36:36.470 --> 00:36:40.250
I've just been me, but dressed
as, you know, and, and it's to

00:36:40.250 --> 00:36:44.990
tell a story or to facilitate a
session or to just to get, yeah.

00:36:45.080 --> 00:36:46.070
I, I engagement,

00:36:46.515 --> 00:36:48.995
Rupert Isaacson: I, I think what comes
across from it when I see you do it.

00:36:49.670 --> 00:36:53.900
Is, it would be really easy in
your position, Troy, to be a

00:36:53.900 --> 00:36:58.730
kind of, I'm the authoritative,
slightly macho horseman here.

00:36:59.180 --> 00:37:05.450
I think that when you dress up to
make, you know, a session happen, okay,

00:37:05.450 --> 00:37:08.420
we're gonna do something medieval,
so let's dress in that costume.

00:37:08.420 --> 00:37:10.820
Well, we're gonna do something
Napoleonic, we're gonna do something.

00:37:10.820 --> 00:37:11.780
Let's dress in that costume.

00:37:11.785 --> 00:37:11.905
Yeah.

00:37:11.930 --> 00:37:17.180
Well, A of course you're teaching
history, but BI think what what it

00:37:17.180 --> 00:37:20.000
sparks is you make yourself vulnerable.

00:37:20.960 --> 00:37:21.290
Troy Shaw: Yeah.

00:37:21.590 --> 00:37:24.590
Rupert Isaacson: You say to the
person, you can judge me if you want.

00:37:25.160 --> 00:37:28.250
You can say, oh, here's this grown
man playing dress up, but you know

00:37:28.250 --> 00:37:33.320
what, I'm gonna do it anyway and
you're gonna see why I'm doing it.

00:37:33.740 --> 00:37:33.980
Troy Shaw: Yeah.

00:37:34.340 --> 00:37:39.335
Rupert Isaacson: And we're gonna have a
laugh, but that vulnerability, that's it.

00:37:39.340 --> 00:37:45.650
It takes some balls and it takes, it
takes a certain egolessness actually.

00:37:46.040 --> 00:37:46.220
Troy Shaw: Yeah.

00:37:46.275 --> 00:37:47.135
Rupert Isaacson: Do you know what I mean?

00:37:48.125 --> 00:37:48.415
Troy Shaw: Yeah.

00:37:49.070 --> 00:37:51.020
I, I'll just remember back when
I, when I first started doing

00:37:51.020 --> 00:37:52.940
this, because I've always had a
thing about dressing up right.

00:37:52.940 --> 00:37:53.570
From as child.

00:37:53.570 --> 00:37:56.950
So when I was young and I used to go for
a ride on my horse, I used to dress up as

00:37:56.950 --> 00:38:00.130
a cowboy and ride around the field as a
cowboy because that, that got me riding.

00:38:00.220 --> 00:38:03.250
So, otherwise I probably wouldn't have
been riding if I couldn't have done that.

00:38:03.790 --> 00:38:05.620
Like a role play kind of thing or, yes.

00:38:05.740 --> 00:38:10.030
Where I saw myself being, but I
remember one sort of dressed up event.

00:38:10.160 --> 00:38:10.970
I think it was a pirate.

00:38:10.970 --> 00:38:11.960
We did a pirate day.

00:38:13.430 --> 00:38:17.450
I was so sort of engrossed in being a
pirate that I actually forgot that I

00:38:17.450 --> 00:38:22.850
was dressed as a pirate walking around
Tesco's, and I was wa just walking around.

00:38:22.940 --> 00:38:23.960
I had to go and get something.

00:38:23.960 --> 00:38:26.120
I can't remember what the event was,
but I was walking around Tesco's

00:38:26.120 --> 00:38:29.750
dressed in full pirate kit, and
people looking at me, I'm, I'm sort

00:38:29.750 --> 00:38:30.950
of going, what are they looking at?

00:38:32.150 --> 00:38:32.900
What's, what's the big deal?

00:38:33.080 --> 00:38:34.070
And I, I was sort of lost.

00:38:34.070 --> 00:38:36.950
So lost in that world that,
you know, it became the norm.

00:38:38.550 --> 00:38:42.530
Rupert Isaacson: It's, it's, it's funny
if you, I think when you do that stuff,

00:38:42.800 --> 00:38:50.240
it allows the person watching you to think
I could take on a different persona too.

00:38:50.630 --> 00:38:50.840
Troy Shaw: Yeah.

00:38:52.370 --> 00:38:54.410
Rupert Isaacson: What
persona do I want to take?

00:38:55.110 --> 00:38:58.400
And it's an interesting conversation
that's often been had around autism,

00:38:58.400 --> 00:39:00.260
particularly people talk about masking.

00:39:00.710 --> 00:39:00.980
Troy Shaw: Mm-hmm.

00:39:01.160 --> 00:39:02.360
Rupert Isaacson: As if
it's always negative.

00:39:03.350 --> 00:39:05.090
And I think they're right.

00:39:05.090 --> 00:39:08.690
It's negative if you constantly
have to mask 'cause it's no choice.

00:39:09.020 --> 00:39:11.030
But it's also a very good
survival skill, right?

00:39:11.090 --> 00:39:11.180
Yeah.

00:39:11.600 --> 00:39:16.040
To blend in and let, let's say
you are, I don't know, a hunter

00:39:16.040 --> 00:39:17.780
gatherer and you wanna go hunt deer.

00:39:17.990 --> 00:39:20.750
Well, it makes sense to put on a
deer skin and a pair of antlers,

00:39:20.750 --> 00:39:22.850
you will get closer to the deer.

00:39:23.270 --> 00:39:26.720
And this, I, you know, the shamanic
side of things, you, you shapeshift,

00:39:26.720 --> 00:39:31.560
you take on another persona in order
to get a perspective, in order to

00:39:31.560 --> 00:39:33.990
get information, in order to get.

00:39:35.200 --> 00:39:40.030
If you like, even a series of
instructions to better your current

00:39:40.030 --> 00:39:45.550
situation, I would argue that the
amount of dress up that you guys do at

00:39:45.550 --> 00:39:49.670
at NewLeaf, and I wish more people did
it is actually a shamanic exercise.

00:39:50.060 --> 00:39:50.180
Mm-hmm.

00:39:50.210 --> 00:39:54.320
In the same way that going to the theater
is right or go getting lost in story.

00:39:55.730 --> 00:39:57.890
And then story of course is
transformation, isn't it?

00:39:59.030 --> 00:39:59.330
Troy Shaw: Yeah.

00:39:59.420 --> 00:40:03.570
I, and I think it when you think about
masking, even in the neurotypical

00:40:03.570 --> 00:40:07.020
world, everyone does it because, we'll,
depending on who we're talking to.

00:40:07.380 --> 00:40:07.620
Rupert Isaacson: Yeah.

00:40:07.890 --> 00:40:11.400
Troy Shaw: So it's a natural part of life
to learn how to interact with different

00:40:11.400 --> 00:40:14.130
people based on what they expect.

00:40:14.130 --> 00:40:18.180
So it's a, it is a way of being able
to flex your life skills really.

00:40:18.420 --> 00:40:18.750
Rupert Isaacson: Right.

00:40:18.750 --> 00:40:19.890
And meet people where they are.

00:40:19.950 --> 00:40:20.190
Troy Shaw: Yeah.

00:40:20.280 --> 00:40:21.360
We just go to the extreme.

00:40:22.290 --> 00:40:25.020
So we might, you know, we, you know,
it might be a cowboy or a pirate or

00:40:25.050 --> 00:40:29.925
a dic turian or whatever it is that
we need to dress up as, but it's, it,

00:40:29.930 --> 00:40:36.420
it just shows especially of our more
quiet, reserved students that it's

00:40:36.420 --> 00:40:39.960
okay to just do what you want really.

00:40:39.960 --> 00:40:42.120
And go back to that word fun again.

00:40:42.810 --> 00:40:43.140
Rupert Isaacson: Yeah.

00:40:43.145 --> 00:40:43.335
You know?

00:40:43.485 --> 00:40:43.775
Yeah.

00:40:43.830 --> 00:40:45.270
'cause fun is courage, isn't it?

00:40:45.570 --> 00:40:45.690
Troy Shaw: Yeah.

00:40:46.140 --> 00:40:47.880
' Rupert Isaacson: cause if
you're having enough fun, you

00:40:47.880 --> 00:40:48.990
lose your fear of judgment.

00:40:49.170 --> 00:40:49.320
Yeah.

00:40:50.730 --> 00:40:53.570
If you're in the equine assisted
field, or if you're considering

00:40:53.570 --> 00:40:57.490
a career in the equine assisted
field, you might want to consider

00:40:57.560 --> 00:41:01.830
taking one of our three neuroscience
backed equine assisted programs.

00:41:01.890 --> 00:41:07.470
Horseboy method, now established
for 20 years, is the original

00:41:08.065 --> 00:41:14.375
Equine assisted program specifically
designed for autism, mentored by and

00:41:14.375 --> 00:41:17.045
developed in conjunction with Dr.

00:41:17.045 --> 00:41:19.925
Temple Grandin and many
other neuroscientists.

00:41:20.265 --> 00:41:23.535
We work in the saddle
with younger children.

00:41:24.030 --> 00:41:28.980
Helping them create oxytocin in their
bodies and neuroplasticity in the brain.

00:41:29.640 --> 00:41:31.080
It works incredibly well.

00:41:31.080 --> 00:41:32.800
It's now in about 40 countries.

00:41:33.510 --> 00:41:34.260
Check it out.

00:41:34.940 --> 00:41:39.090
If you're working without horses,
you might want to look at movement

00:41:39.100 --> 00:41:42.470
method, which gets a very, very
similar effect, but can also be

00:41:42.470 --> 00:41:44.220
applied in schools, in homes.

00:41:44.420 --> 00:41:49.410
If you're working with families, you can
give them really tangible exercises to do

00:41:49.410 --> 00:41:50.950
at home that will create neuroplasticity.

00:41:52.305 --> 00:41:53.585
when they're not with you.

00:41:54.095 --> 00:41:57.535
Finally, we have taquine
equine integration.

00:41:57.895 --> 00:42:00.515
If you know anything about our
programs, you know that we need a

00:42:00.515 --> 00:42:04.515
really high standard of horsemanship
in order to create the oxytocin

00:42:04.545 --> 00:42:08.835
in the body of the person that
we're working with, child or adult.

00:42:09.275 --> 00:42:12.615
So, this means we need to train
a horse in collection, but this

00:42:12.635 --> 00:42:16.875
also has a really beneficial
effect on the horse's well being.

00:42:17.075 --> 00:42:21.365
And it also ends your time conflict,
where you're wondering, oh my gosh, how

00:42:21.365 --> 00:42:24.665
am I going to condition my horses and
maintain them and give them what they

00:42:24.665 --> 00:42:27.760
need, as well as Serving my clients.

00:42:28.000 --> 00:42:32.500
Takine equine integration aimed
at a more adult client base

00:42:32.830 --> 00:42:34.480
absolutely gives you this.

00:42:34.540 --> 00:42:34.900
Troy Shaw: Yeah.

00:42:34.960 --> 00:42:37.180
And once, once that fund's engaged,
you can pretty much do anything.

00:42:37.180 --> 00:42:40.120
So once you've got people
laughing, you can then all the

00:42:40.120 --> 00:42:41.950
stuff that was frightening Yeah.

00:42:41.950 --> 00:42:46.990
Before the fund started is now on the
cards to do probably like horse, horse

00:42:46.990 --> 00:42:48.580
riding's probably a really prime example.

00:42:48.580 --> 00:42:50.950
Well, I'm not gonna ride a horse, not
gonna ride a horse, but now I'm laughing.

00:42:50.950 --> 00:42:51.550
I can do that.

00:42:51.665 --> 00:42:51.955
Rupert Isaacson: Yeah.

00:42:52.955 --> 00:42:53.245
Yeah.

00:42:53.265 --> 00:42:53.495
So, yeah.

00:42:53.845 --> 00:42:54.160
Yeah, yeah.

00:42:54.160 --> 00:42:55.900
And that transfers to other Yes.

00:42:55.900 --> 00:42:56.710
Situations in life.

00:42:56.920 --> 00:42:58.600
Do you, I mean, you
have a lot of staff now.

00:42:58.600 --> 00:42:59.680
How many staff do you have?

00:42:59.950 --> 00:43:00.580
Troy Shaw: 24.

00:43:00.580 --> 00:43:00.610
Oh,

00:43:01.780 --> 00:43:05.020
Rupert Isaacson: not every one of
those people coming in probably has

00:43:05.020 --> 00:43:10.570
the natural ability for dress up,
laugh, fun, and story that you do.

00:43:10.870 --> 00:43:14.230
How do you bring that out
of people in the staff too?

00:43:14.860 --> 00:43:15.880
Troy Shaw: And that's,
that's one of the challenges.

00:43:15.880 --> 00:43:18.480
So you talked earlier on about
the world changing slightly and

00:43:18.480 --> 00:43:21.540
the fun side and the, the laughter
side drifting away a little bit.

00:43:21.690 --> 00:43:21.990
Rupert Isaacson: Yeah.

00:43:22.290 --> 00:43:26.760
Troy Shaw: And as, as the organization
grows, you can sort of see it's harder

00:43:26.760 --> 00:43:32.670
and harder to get that kind of early
days fun where everybody was comfortable

00:43:32.670 --> 00:43:35.240
around each other to let themselves go.

00:43:35.240 --> 00:43:35.300
Yeah.

00:43:35.720 --> 00:43:38.810
So the, the way we do it at
the moment is, we'll, we'll get

00:43:38.810 --> 00:43:39.800
in there and do it ourselves.

00:43:39.800 --> 00:43:42.770
So we are, you know, the directors
and all the very serious people

00:43:42.770 --> 00:43:43.460
and all that sort of stuff.

00:43:43.460 --> 00:43:48.200
But if they see me going to work
one day dressed ridiculously,

00:43:48.500 --> 00:43:48.920
Rupert Isaacson: yes,

00:43:48.950 --> 00:43:49.850
Troy Shaw: it's actually okay.

00:43:49.850 --> 00:43:51.770
It's almost like a, you
wrote it's okay to be silly.

00:43:52.700 --> 00:43:56.120
And one, one of the things we really
keen on is when we recruit people, we,

00:43:56.330 --> 00:44:00.110
we guess we get the cvs and we get all of
the backgrounds and all the information,

00:44:00.650 --> 00:44:04.280
but we really need to the person who
sat in front, and you can get a really

00:44:04.280 --> 00:44:08.180
fairly good indication of what they're
gonna be like just from a conversation.

00:44:08.630 --> 00:44:09.050
Rupert Isaacson: Yes.

00:44:09.680 --> 00:44:11.930
Troy Shaw: You know, we, we get
obviously have to go through all

00:44:11.930 --> 00:44:15.720
of the legislation, the right
recruitment process and all those.

00:44:16.050 --> 00:44:19.680
The conversation still says what they're
gonna be like when they start work.

00:44:20.310 --> 00:44:20.580
Rupert Isaacson: Right.

00:44:20.580 --> 00:44:24.870
But a young person, you know, coming
into the field and it's, you know,

00:44:24.870 --> 00:44:28.320
mental health and, you know, they
feel they've gotta be kind of serious.

00:44:28.320 --> 00:44:32.460
I, I, I hear that you lead from the front.

00:44:32.460 --> 00:44:36.150
You will come in to the workday
dressed up and say, yeah,

00:44:36.330 --> 00:44:37.440
therefore it's all right to this.

00:44:37.740 --> 00:44:41.220
But nonetheless, you know, when
you're dealing with people, how do

00:44:41.220 --> 00:44:42.870
you draw out of them in the sessions?

00:44:42.870 --> 00:44:45.360
How do you help them build that skill?

00:44:46.830 --> 00:44:49.385
Troy Shaw: A lot to be fair on
our staff that, that most of

00:44:49.385 --> 00:44:50.495
'em have got that there anyway.

00:44:50.495 --> 00:44:53.525
Then they've got this, they've
got this desire to want to make

00:44:53.525 --> 00:44:56.285
a change for people and they'll,
they'll bring the fun element in.

00:44:56.885 --> 00:44:59.645
There's, there's always gonna
be the people that through life

00:44:59.645 --> 00:45:02.675
that find it a little bit more
challenging to want to dress up.

00:45:03.155 --> 00:45:03.515
Rupert Isaacson: Yeah.

00:45:03.965 --> 00:45:06.695
Troy Shaw: You know, but even when
they don't dress up, they still

00:45:06.695 --> 00:45:07.865
might be sat in the back laughing.

00:45:08.405 --> 00:45:08.645
Rupert Isaacson: Yeah.

00:45:08.825 --> 00:45:09.275
Okay.

00:45:09.275 --> 00:45:11.915
Troy Shaw: You know, because they're still
laughing, they're still taking part, you

00:45:11.915 --> 00:45:14.105
know, they're not sitting there serious.

00:45:14.435 --> 00:45:16.790
I don't, there's not one
of our staff that won't.

00:45:17.810 --> 00:45:20.960
Openly ball out laughing
when something's funny.

00:45:21.680 --> 00:45:24.770
You know, they'll absolutely,
you know, be in tears sometimes.

00:45:26.540 --> 00:45:28.460
Rupert Isaacson: It's, it's so unusual.

00:45:28.460 --> 00:45:31.690
I'm just thinking about all of the I
mean I'm, you know, we used to see joy

00:45:31.690 --> 00:45:33.520
with horses 'cause horses joy, right?

00:45:33.820 --> 00:45:34.030
Yeah.

00:45:34.030 --> 00:45:34.050
That's, yeah.

00:45:34.055 --> 00:45:35.020
You can agree.

00:45:35.350 --> 00:45:42.500
But when I go round looking at equine
assisted things, it's not that often

00:45:42.500 --> 00:45:46.790
that people are just like on the
floor, proper job belly laughing.

00:45:47.085 --> 00:45:47.375
Troy Shaw: Okay.

00:45:49.790 --> 00:45:52.235
The problem is people do it for a
textbook and, you know, a lot of the

00:45:52.235 --> 00:45:58.040
time having the expertise because you've
read it and you're able to interpret

00:45:58.040 --> 00:46:03.110
what it means and how it doesn't mean
necessarily that you can deliver Yeah.

00:46:03.110 --> 00:46:08.720
On those on that text, because it, it is,
we talk about the environment quite a lot.

00:46:08.930 --> 00:46:11.030
So there's the natural environment,
the nature around you, but

00:46:11.030 --> 00:46:13.580
the human environment is so
much more important as well.

00:46:13.850 --> 00:46:14.210
Rupert Isaacson: Yes.

00:46:14.330 --> 00:46:17.960
Troy Shaw: You know, if that person's
happy and engaging and laughing

00:46:19.550 --> 00:46:24.410
and, and open and listening and all
those things, that has a massive

00:46:24.410 --> 00:46:27.620
impact on how, how everything works.

00:46:28.970 --> 00:46:29.510
Rupert Isaacson: It's so true.

00:46:29.510 --> 00:46:32.090
You know, as you know, with
the Horse Boy trainings, we.

00:46:33.365 --> 00:46:35.735
The environment's, actually the
thing we talk about the most, right?

00:46:35.765 --> 00:46:36.725
Get the environment right.

00:46:36.725 --> 00:46:38.405
It does 60% of your work for you.

00:46:38.495 --> 00:46:42.635
And as you very correctly pointed out
there, human environment, huge part.

00:46:42.635 --> 00:46:46.745
And in fact, we generally find the
human environment will, at the end of

00:46:46.745 --> 00:46:48.515
the day, top the natural environment.

00:46:48.515 --> 00:46:52.595
Meaning that if you went out into a
beautiful forest, but with someone

00:46:52.595 --> 00:46:57.335
who was a complete asshole and you
felt threatened by it, wouldn't

00:46:57.335 --> 00:46:59.105
matter how beautiful that forest was.

00:46:59.375 --> 00:47:01.205
Your entire experience is cortisol.

00:47:01.265 --> 00:47:02.855
It's stress and fear.

00:47:03.305 --> 00:47:09.005
You could be in some really pretty, not
nice environment, but if you're with

00:47:09.005 --> 00:47:16.805
the like, super empathetic, cool, nice,
funny person, it's gonna override what's

00:47:16.955 --> 00:47:18.335
missing from the nature, isn't it?

00:47:18.785 --> 00:47:19.025
Troy Shaw: Yeah.

00:47:19.205 --> 00:47:21.005
And, and it does, it
really does work as well.

00:47:21.005 --> 00:47:24.005
So, and that's why we're so keen
on getting the right people.

00:47:25.035 --> 00:47:25.380
Rather how

00:47:25.380 --> 00:47:27.915
Rupert Isaacson: do you, you you say you
can find out a lot from the conversation,

00:47:27.915 --> 00:47:33.555
but how do you make it safe for them in
the course of like your job interviews

00:47:33.925 --> 00:47:37.675
to say, not only is it all right to be
silly here, we actually quite, you know,

00:47:37.735 --> 00:47:39.835
we'd like it if you show us you're silly,

00:47:40.345 --> 00:47:40.495
Troy Shaw: you know?

00:47:40.545 --> 00:47:42.570
I, I guess from an interview
perspective, they can't sit there and

00:47:42.765 --> 00:47:46.035
like crack jokes off because they're
not gonna feel comfortable doing it.

00:47:46.150 --> 00:47:46.440
Sure.

00:47:46.440 --> 00:47:46.560
Exactly.

00:47:46.560 --> 00:47:47.565
They're gonna be very insecure.

00:47:48.085 --> 00:47:49.465
But you can just sort of.

00:47:50.245 --> 00:47:54.475
Just by the way, people are, the, the
way they talk, the, the, whether they're

00:47:54.655 --> 00:47:58.315
just reading from a text saying, I,
you know, I'm a team player and I work

00:47:58.315 --> 00:47:59.545
alone well, and all that sort of stuff.

00:47:59.545 --> 00:48:00.985
That all those things go out the window.

00:48:01.435 --> 00:48:01.645
Rupert Isaacson: Yeah.

00:48:01.695 --> 00:48:07.155
Troy Shaw: And, and it really, it shows
with our team in the first week of them

00:48:07.155 --> 00:48:09.765
starting, whether it's for them or not.

00:48:10.125 --> 00:48:10.545
Okay.

00:48:10.725 --> 00:48:13.605
You can sort of say they're
coming to work and within the

00:48:13.605 --> 00:48:14.835
first week you can sort of say,

00:48:15.465 --> 00:48:15.585
Rupert Isaacson: Ugh,

00:48:16.785 --> 00:48:17.715
Troy Shaw: it's not gonna work.

00:48:18.255 --> 00:48:18.495
Rupert Isaacson: Yeah.

00:48:18.555 --> 00:48:20.415
Troy Shaw: And it's, and it's
not as everybody thinks, it's not

00:48:20.595 --> 00:48:24.135
based on whether it's raining or
snowing or sunny or all that's just

00:48:24.135 --> 00:48:25.905
like a, that's out of our control.

00:48:26.235 --> 00:48:26.535
Yes.

00:48:26.535 --> 00:48:29.715
It's literally on how
they're finding the approach.

00:48:30.555 --> 00:48:33.675
And what, what we've actually found
is, and it's it's only really occurred

00:48:33.675 --> 00:48:39.195
to me just now sat here, is as the
team grows, the team's become a little

00:48:39.195 --> 00:48:40.635
bit more self-supportive in this.

00:48:41.835 --> 00:48:46.755
So we went through a stage where we had
less people, but more than the original.

00:48:47.415 --> 00:48:52.305
So we were sort of losing contact
with that day-to-day stuff, and we

00:48:52.305 --> 00:48:56.115
sort of went down the gap where the,
the, the team was bonding well, but

00:48:56.115 --> 00:48:59.535
they weren't necessarily bringing
that fun element, if that makes sense.

00:48:59.865 --> 00:49:00.165
Rupert Isaacson: Yeah.

00:49:00.225 --> 00:49:02.625
Troy Shaw: Because they didn't
know how to lead it out themselves.

00:49:03.075 --> 00:49:04.335
But now the team's got bigger.

00:49:05.205 --> 00:49:09.165
They're starting to self support each
of the now and bring it out of each

00:49:09.165 --> 00:49:12.015
other so that there's, you know, it's
more of a community within the team

00:49:12.555 --> 00:49:15.555
and they're all sort of helping each
other to develop in the right direction.

00:49:17.925 --> 00:49:20.805
Rupert Isaacson: I'd be interested,
I think maybe we should plan this

00:49:20.805 --> 00:49:22.365
for some time in the coming year.

00:49:22.370 --> 00:49:26.235
You know, you, I dunno how many of these
things you go out to these days, but

00:49:26.235 --> 00:49:31.305
I, I go and speak up a lot of equine
conferences of one kind or another.

00:49:31.485 --> 00:49:31.695
Troy Shaw: Yeah.

00:49:31.915 --> 00:49:35.665
Rupert Isaacson: I think we
should go and do something on fun.

00:49:36.085 --> 00:49:36.355
Troy Shaw: Yeah.

00:49:37.675 --> 00:49:42.715
Rupert Isaacson: Because I just think,
I just think it's being un undervalued.

00:49:42.865 --> 00:49:46.285
And I think more people, you know,
wish they could but feel they can't.

00:49:47.045 --> 00:49:50.435
And it might be really useful, I think,
for somebody like you to come along

00:49:50.435 --> 00:49:54.995
and say, look, I've built this very
successful, very kind of by the book

00:49:55.565 --> 00:49:59.555
service here, which does work with the
local councils, the local authorities, and

00:49:59.555 --> 00:50:01.685
the local, and yet we can still be silly.

00:50:02.255 --> 00:50:02.585
Yeah.

00:50:02.795 --> 00:50:04.325
One does not preclude the other.

00:50:04.925 --> 00:50:05.165
Troy Shaw: No.

00:50:05.225 --> 00:50:07.745
I mean, the funny is the
underpinning of making things happen.

00:50:07.745 --> 00:50:12.905
It it does unlocks that,
that self-consciousness.

00:50:13.355 --> 00:50:13.685
Rupert Isaacson: Yeah.

00:50:13.985 --> 00:50:14.765
Troy Shaw: That you it does.

00:50:15.695 --> 00:50:16.175
Rupert Isaacson: It does.

00:50:16.175 --> 00:50:16.685
It does.

00:50:16.685 --> 00:50:19.175
You know, and, and if, if, you know,
again, it just comes down to if

00:50:19.175 --> 00:50:21.905
what we're trying to really achieve
here is a positive mental health.

00:50:22.385 --> 00:50:22.655
Troy Shaw: Yeah.

00:50:22.985 --> 00:50:25.265
Rupert Isaacson: I don't see how
that can happen without laughter.

00:50:25.865 --> 00:50:27.815
And that laughter has to be prioritized.

00:50:28.205 --> 00:50:30.995
Now, the other side of things, of
course, is the equine wellbeing.

00:50:31.535 --> 00:50:33.215
I know that you produce very good horses.

00:50:33.215 --> 00:50:34.205
I've seen your horses.

00:50:34.205 --> 00:50:34.820
I know that they're.

00:50:35.585 --> 00:50:36.185
Fit Well.

00:50:36.185 --> 00:50:37.325
They've got nice top lines.

00:50:37.325 --> 00:50:39.065
They've got the things we look for.

00:50:39.545 --> 00:50:43.835
Talk to us about how you produce your
horses and how you maintain your horses.

00:50:44.225 --> 00:50:46.325
Troy Shaw: So I, I think probably
the starting point of our horses,

00:50:46.325 --> 00:50:50.195
and the one thing that I always
talk about with a team is those

00:50:50.195 --> 00:50:53.585
horses are a key member of our team.

00:50:53.585 --> 00:50:54.485
They're not horses.

00:50:54.485 --> 00:50:55.745
They're not riding score horses.

00:50:56.105 --> 00:51:00.275
They are part of the team and we
need to look after them, you know,

00:51:00.305 --> 00:51:01.385
like any other part of the team.

00:51:01.385 --> 00:51:02.675
They're really, really important.

00:51:03.425 --> 00:51:11.135
So we treat them in that way with
that in our mind so that their, their,

00:51:11.135 --> 00:51:12.875
their needs are met all of the time.

00:51:13.115 --> 00:51:14.975
Which again, for me is a
little bit like the cavalry.

00:51:15.845 --> 00:51:18.215
So in the cavalry, the horses came
first, no matter what you've been doing.

00:51:18.515 --> 00:51:21.545
You know, you come off troop in the color,
for example, and you do your horses first.

00:51:21.545 --> 00:51:24.485
Before you went for a sit down
or a cup of tea or anything like

00:51:24.485 --> 00:51:25.835
that, your horses came first.

00:51:26.405 --> 00:51:27.335
And it's the same with ours.

00:51:27.335 --> 00:51:28.685
The horses get looked after first.

00:51:28.955 --> 00:51:29.075
Mm-hmm.

00:51:29.075 --> 00:51:33.095
So their, their mental health, their
wellbeing is in the right place so

00:51:33.095 --> 00:51:36.545
that when they're asked to do something
with a student, they're not gonna

00:51:36.545 --> 00:51:38.105
go, well no, I don't fancy it today.

00:51:38.495 --> 00:51:38.855
Rupert Isaacson: Yeah.

00:51:38.975 --> 00:51:39.845
Troy Shaw: Or I don't feel like it.

00:51:39.845 --> 00:51:42.005
They're, they're open to it
and they're keen and eager.

00:51:43.695 --> 00:51:46.570
Rupert Isaacson: But talk, talk
to me about the nuts and bolts of

00:51:46.960 --> 00:51:50.590
the training and the maintaining
and also the living conditions.

00:51:50.590 --> 00:51:53.170
Like give, gimme that 1, 2, 3.

00:51:53.200 --> 00:51:56.020
'cause because stuff that you
take for granted, a lot of people

00:51:56.020 --> 00:51:58.660
don't, you know, that old school
horsemanship that you come out of.

00:51:59.485 --> 00:52:01.765
Yeah, it's not something
one can take for granted.

00:52:02.035 --> 00:52:04.905
Troy Shaw: And I think that's, that's,
that's, it's quite hard to put a a finger

00:52:04.905 --> 00:52:06.165
on the training side of things, isn't it?

00:52:06.165 --> 00:52:07.965
So you, you sort of
just do it organically.

00:52:07.965 --> 00:52:09.795
You just do it because that's
what you do all the time.

00:52:10.275 --> 00:52:13.995
Rupert Isaacson: What do you make
sure that every horse has in the

00:52:13.995 --> 00:52:15.315
course of their working week?

00:52:15.585 --> 00:52:18.645
Like outside of the client sessions?

00:52:19.065 --> 00:52:20.805
Troy Shaw: They have
all the horses live out.

00:52:21.255 --> 00:52:21.675
Rupert Isaacson: Okay.

00:52:21.675 --> 00:52:22.065
That's a good

00:52:22.425 --> 00:52:22.965
Troy Shaw: In a herd.

00:52:22.965 --> 00:52:23.045
In a herd,

00:52:23.325 --> 00:52:23.685
Rupert Isaacson: okay.

00:52:23.985 --> 00:52:26.595
Troy Shaw: So they have their natural
environment and they get a chance to

00:52:26.595 --> 00:52:28.725
socialize as a horse with the horses,

00:52:29.175 --> 00:52:29.625
Rupert Isaacson: right.

00:52:29.895 --> 00:52:32.295
Troy Shaw: And they get
all the food they need.

00:52:32.385 --> 00:52:33.675
So they're not scrubbing for food.

00:52:33.675 --> 00:52:38.085
So they're, they're not, there's
no sort of, I don't know.

00:52:38.085 --> 00:52:39.555
They never feel hungry,

00:52:40.605 --> 00:52:40.875
Rupert Isaacson: right.

00:52:40.875 --> 00:52:43.875
So they got, they've got freedom
forage and friends, right?

00:52:43.875 --> 00:52:43.995
Yeah.

00:52:43.995 --> 00:52:44.955
Troy Shaw: All the five freedoms.

00:52:44.960 --> 00:52:45.700
I don't don't Right.

00:52:45.900 --> 00:52:45.940
Whatever.

00:52:45.940 --> 00:52:47.540
They're never remember, but Yeah.

00:52:48.040 --> 00:52:49.275
But they get all those kind of things.

00:52:49.275 --> 00:52:50.835
So they, they, they're
treated really well.

00:52:50.935 --> 00:52:54.805
And when, when we work with
horses with the students,

00:52:54.805 --> 00:52:56.155
they're treated with compassion.

00:52:56.155 --> 00:53:00.925
So we take things at the pace
that that horse will tolerate.

00:53:01.405 --> 00:53:02.425
Horses just like people.

00:53:02.845 --> 00:53:04.015
Mm, different personalities.

00:53:04.015 --> 00:53:06.535
You know, some people, some horses
don't like the girth being done up.

00:53:06.535 --> 00:53:08.635
Some horses don't like
the saddle going on.

00:53:08.635 --> 00:53:11.185
Some horses don't like, you
know, being interrupted while

00:53:11.185 --> 00:53:12.115
they're eating the breakfast.

00:53:12.685 --> 00:53:15.145
But as long as we understand
those personalities, we can then

00:53:15.145 --> 00:53:18.505
work around them and work with
them to make them work with us.

00:53:18.955 --> 00:53:20.005
And we sort of respect.

00:53:21.025 --> 00:53:23.965
Each individual horse as an
individual horse and build

00:53:23.965 --> 00:53:25.225
the program according to that.

00:53:25.855 --> 00:53:29.275
So for example, we have a, we talk
about the archery world of things.

00:53:29.275 --> 00:53:32.755
We have got a horse that we tried
archery with when we first started

00:53:33.415 --> 00:53:36.835
and it was a real, no, I'm not gonna
anywhere near, I'm never gonna do that.

00:53:37.555 --> 00:53:39.805
And we tried it a couple times
and it was quite clear that

00:53:39.805 --> 00:53:40.765
it was never gonna happen.

00:53:41.185 --> 00:53:41.545
Rupert Isaacson: Right.

00:53:41.905 --> 00:53:42.955
Troy Shaw: We could have forced that.

00:53:43.855 --> 00:53:44.785
We could have made it happen.

00:53:44.785 --> 00:53:46.855
You know, we could have got in
there, we could have tried all sorts

00:53:46.855 --> 00:53:48.190
of methods and stuff and Right.

00:53:48.190 --> 00:53:51.115
But it would've been forced and then
the horse wouldn't have been happy.

00:53:51.115 --> 00:53:52.105
It would've done the work.

00:53:52.345 --> 00:53:52.645
Rupert Isaacson: Yeah.

00:53:52.825 --> 00:53:55.645
Troy Shaw: But it would've done it
from a, a, an area of resistance

00:53:55.645 --> 00:53:58.285
and never been a hundred percent
comfortable doing what it's doing.

00:53:58.825 --> 00:53:59.065
Rupert Isaacson: Yeah.

00:53:59.155 --> 00:54:02.455
Troy Shaw: So the sim similar with the
horses when they're working with students.

00:54:03.655 --> 00:54:05.995
Some are fine with, the students
are making lots of noise,

00:54:06.265 --> 00:54:09.925
jumping around, flapping their
arms, you know, and jumping off.

00:54:10.405 --> 00:54:11.155
Others don't like it.

00:54:12.145 --> 00:54:17.095
So we'll just, we'll just mix the
personalities and from a, from training

00:54:17.095 --> 00:54:21.835
them to get there, it's not really
training as such, it's more observation.

00:54:22.285 --> 00:54:22.405
Rupert Isaacson: Mm-hmm.

00:54:22.885 --> 00:54:25.495
Troy Shaw: So we'll just sit and we'll
watch, we'll observe, we'll know, we'll

00:54:25.495 --> 00:54:30.625
understand and we'll try and do our
best to know each horse individually

00:54:32.155 --> 00:54:34.795
and what they can, you know, because
there's no point forcing things.

00:54:34.825 --> 00:54:37.585
'cause if you're forcing your horse,
you can end up with an accident and end

00:54:37.585 --> 00:54:39.745
with a, somebody falling off in a heap.

00:54:40.285 --> 00:54:40.615
Rupert Isaacson: Yeah.

00:54:40.705 --> 00:54:43.135
Troy Shaw: You've done something that's
not comfortable for either of them.

00:54:43.645 --> 00:54:43.915
Rupert Isaacson: Yeah.

00:54:45.070 --> 00:54:48.210
Troy Shaw: And we, so we do have
going back to the paperwork side of

00:54:48.210 --> 00:54:52.500
things, we've got a, a huge paperwork
trail with each individual horse on

00:54:52.500 --> 00:54:56.250
what they've done, where they've,
where they've been, how they reacted.

00:54:56.880 --> 00:54:58.530
You know, is there any concerns?

00:54:58.980 --> 00:55:02.070
And then we have a, a, a matrix that
feeds into, to what they can and

00:55:02.070 --> 00:55:05.460
can't do, and who they can and can't
do with either as well with a team.

00:55:06.000 --> 00:55:07.080
Rupert Isaacson: Right, right, right.

00:55:07.080 --> 00:55:10.470
So the horse has never been put in
a position where No, they're being

00:55:10.470 --> 00:55:11.580
forced to do something they don't wanna

00:55:11.580 --> 00:55:11.640
Troy Shaw: do.

00:55:11.640 --> 00:55:11.760
No.

00:55:11.790 --> 00:55:15.360
Or, or the, the team are being put in
a position where they're working with a

00:55:15.360 --> 00:55:16.710
horse, they're not skilled to work with.

00:55:17.070 --> 00:55:17.520
Yes.

00:55:17.520 --> 00:55:19.660
Or the horse is not capable
of working with them 'cause

00:55:19.660 --> 00:55:20.770
the personalities, et cetera.

00:55:21.430 --> 00:55:26.140
So it's, it is, it almost sounds
more complex than, well, I suppose

00:55:26.140 --> 00:55:29.020
it's quite complex, but it's through
years of observation and watching.

00:55:29.020 --> 00:55:29.110
Right.

00:55:29.110 --> 00:55:29.230
No,

00:55:29.230 --> 00:55:31.270
Rupert Isaacson: it, it, it is, it's
complex, but it's the functional

00:55:31.270 --> 00:55:34.060
complexity in terms of like Yeah.

00:55:34.065 --> 00:55:36.850
I, I love that you talk about
matching up personality.

00:55:37.000 --> 00:55:37.210
Troy Shaw: Mm-hmm.

00:55:37.270 --> 00:55:39.790
Rupert Isaacson: Because I, I see this
a lot with our work too, that sometimes

00:55:39.790 --> 00:55:43.270
we ha we might get people who are
technically really quite good with horses,

00:55:43.660 --> 00:55:47.170
but for whatever reason, you know, that
they and that horse don't really jive.

00:55:47.500 --> 00:55:47.680
Troy Shaw: Yeah.

00:55:47.800 --> 00:55:51.640
Rupert Isaacson: And if I'm now
going to put that person and that

00:55:51.640 --> 00:55:53.860
horse in a position with your kid

00:55:54.280 --> 00:55:54.550
Troy Shaw: Yeah.

00:55:54.555 --> 00:55:57.430
Rupert Isaacson: Is that
really a, a good decision?

00:55:58.000 --> 00:55:58.360
No.

00:55:58.360 --> 00:56:04.120
You know, or am I forcing those two
personalities into a situation that.

00:56:05.020 --> 00:56:05.320
Troy Shaw: Yeah.

00:56:06.490 --> 00:56:07.630
Rupert Isaacson: You know,
something bad can happen

00:56:07.840 --> 00:56:10.180
Troy Shaw: unless you using that
situation to try and teach something

00:56:10.180 --> 00:56:13.180
about an individual's own personality,
then you can sort of really get

00:56:13.180 --> 00:56:16.840
into the nitty gritty and start
some mirroring and things like that.

00:56:16.840 --> 00:56:17.590
But that's right.

00:56:17.590 --> 00:56:20.110
You know, that's a another skill.

00:56:20.800 --> 00:56:21.160
Rupert Isaacson: Right.

00:56:21.160 --> 00:56:23.500
But that's still gotta happen
within certain safety protocols.

00:56:23.500 --> 00:56:23.560
Yeah.

00:56:23.560 --> 00:56:23.620
Yeah.

00:56:23.620 --> 00:56:26.800
Like you can do that with like
horse foy for example, where you are

00:56:26.950 --> 00:56:30.940
back riding with a kid or something
like No, that chemistry between

00:56:30.940 --> 00:56:32.050
horse and rider has gotta be there.

00:56:32.830 --> 00:56:34.600
And speaking about
things like back riding.

00:56:34.690 --> 00:56:40.540
Okay, so I, I notice with your horses
nice top line, nice muscle, nice fitness.

00:56:40.810 --> 00:56:45.100
I don't always see that when I
go to therapeutic riding places.

00:56:45.210 --> 00:56:47.190
And I tend to jump up
and down about it a bit.

00:56:47.190 --> 00:56:49.350
I'm like, dude, the horses are athletes.

00:56:49.500 --> 00:56:50.340
Yes, they are.

00:56:50.550 --> 00:56:54.900
And they're bred selectively over
the last 4,000 years to be athletes.

00:56:55.020 --> 00:56:58.620
And if they don't get that outlet,
they go squiffy in the head.

00:56:59.070 --> 00:57:01.260
Sometimes people take this
on, sometimes they don't.

00:57:02.310 --> 00:57:07.650
What do you do to ensure the top
line, the fitness and the muscling

00:57:07.650 --> 00:57:08.880
and suckling of your horses?

00:57:09.240 --> 00:57:12.990
Talk us through the sort of 1, 2,
3 of what's your baseline that you

00:57:12.990 --> 00:57:14.580
want to make sure that your team.

00:57:15.030 --> 00:57:17.190
Does with the horses on
a week to week basis.

00:57:17.700 --> 00:57:21.890
Troy Shaw: So, so our horses really the
keeping them fit is done by the students.

00:57:22.220 --> 00:57:22.670
Rupert Isaacson: Okay.

00:57:22.820 --> 00:57:26.000
Troy Shaw: So we don't, because we have
so many students now, we don't have to

00:57:26.000 --> 00:57:28.820
do really that much intervention work.

00:57:29.150 --> 00:57:29.690
Okay.

00:57:29.690 --> 00:57:30.740
We keep the horses fit.

00:57:31.700 --> 00:57:34.340
One of the things we do like to
do to keep the horses mentally fit

00:57:34.580 --> 00:57:36.410
is change their variety slightly.

00:57:37.880 --> 00:57:38.000
Go on.

00:57:38.000 --> 00:57:38.030
Okay.

00:57:38.030 --> 00:57:42.620
What we'll do is for example, we'll take
the horses to the beach, take 'em to sea.

00:57:42.620 --> 00:57:44.510
So last week we took a
couple horses to the beach.

00:57:45.170 --> 00:57:46.310
It's a reward for us.

00:57:46.310 --> 00:57:47.300
It's a reward for the horses.

00:57:47.720 --> 00:57:47.930
Right.

00:57:48.590 --> 00:57:49.850
Or we'll take 'em to the forest.

00:57:50.810 --> 00:57:54.110
So, or we'll take just, just
out for a general hack just

00:57:54.110 --> 00:57:55.130
to change the environment.

00:57:55.130 --> 00:57:57.500
You know, they'll, they love going
out for a hack and standing on

00:57:57.500 --> 00:58:01.640
the corner eating grass while the
team just talk and have a chat.

00:58:02.840 --> 00:58:03.950
So it, so

00:58:03.950 --> 00:58:04.880
Rupert Isaacson: trail riding.

00:58:04.880 --> 00:58:05.270
Troy Shaw: Yeah.

00:58:05.630 --> 00:58:05.780
Rupert Isaacson: Yeah.

00:58:05.780 --> 00:58:06.170
Right.

00:58:06.260 --> 00:58:08.810
So again, this is something
you take that for granted.

00:58:08.810 --> 00:58:11.930
I can tell you Troy a lot of
the places I go to do not do it.

00:58:12.170 --> 00:58:12.320
Troy Shaw: Yeah.

00:58:12.370 --> 00:58:15.940
Rupert Isaacson: I'm a great believer
that all of my horses need, whether

00:58:15.940 --> 00:58:19.630
they're got their dressage hats on, or
whether they got their therapy hats on,

00:58:20.080 --> 00:58:22.270
they need tons and tons of trail riding.

00:58:22.780 --> 00:58:26.110
So obviously I try to serve
my clients on the trail.

00:58:26.410 --> 00:58:26.620
Troy Shaw: Yeah.

00:58:26.890 --> 00:58:31.960
Rupert Isaacson: So it's, I'm not
battling for time, but, and then

00:58:31.960 --> 00:58:33.280
I'm trying to vary the trails.

00:58:33.950 --> 00:58:36.620
But I also know that, say in the UK.

00:58:37.235 --> 00:58:39.575
You know, I'm lucky 'cause I, I
was in Texas and I was in Germany.

00:58:39.575 --> 00:58:40.475
Now I'm here in Spain.

00:58:40.785 --> 00:58:42.165
Trail riding is pretty easy.

00:58:42.945 --> 00:58:43.155
Troy Shaw: Yeah.

00:58:43.155 --> 00:58:43.245
But

00:58:43.335 --> 00:58:47.245
Rupert Isaacson: a lot of places in the
UK it's not unless you happen to have like

00:58:47.245 --> 00:58:48.595
a really good bridal away system Right.

00:58:48.595 --> 00:58:53.065
By you, people are often forced to
hack on the lanes, on the roads.

00:58:53.065 --> 00:58:53.125
Yeah.

00:58:53.785 --> 00:58:54.565
They're not safe.

00:58:54.565 --> 00:58:55.615
People drive really fast.

00:58:55.615 --> 00:58:58.915
So people often end up not
trail riding their horses.

00:58:59.005 --> 00:58:59.125
Yeah.

00:58:59.125 --> 00:59:00.385
How do you get around that problem?

00:59:00.475 --> 00:59:01.555
Troy Shaw: We're, we're really lucky.

00:59:01.555 --> 00:59:04.375
So, our local roads are quite quiet.

00:59:04.405 --> 00:59:04.435
Okay.

00:59:05.275 --> 00:59:10.255
And we've got a, a, a very good loop,
which takes about an hour to ride round

00:59:10.975 --> 00:59:12.895
where it is safe to take the students.

00:59:13.675 --> 00:59:13.765
Okay.

00:59:13.765 --> 00:59:15.355
For a ride out, for a trail road hack.

00:59:16.015 --> 00:59:19.885
Our limitation there is all about the
time that the students got with us.

00:59:20.110 --> 00:59:20.460
Right.

00:59:20.485 --> 00:59:24.415
So we can't go out for a day because
the student's got to go to their next

00:59:24.415 --> 00:59:26.565
place or they've got on their agenda.

00:59:27.090 --> 00:59:31.145
They, they, they might be with us to
do a course like an animal care course.

00:59:31.475 --> 00:59:35.315
So they have to go and fulfill that
part of their sort of time with us.

00:59:36.125 --> 00:59:41.425
So the, it's, it's we are lucky that we
have got those roads that are quiet and

00:59:41.425 --> 00:59:43.045
they do have those grass verges, but you

00:59:43.045 --> 00:59:44.905
Rupert Isaacson: are having
to ride along the roads.

00:59:44.905 --> 00:59:45.055
Yeah.

00:59:45.535 --> 00:59:45.745
Okay.

00:59:45.775 --> 00:59:45.985
Yeah.

00:59:46.105 --> 00:59:46.645
Yeah, that's right.

00:59:46.645 --> 00:59:49.255
Unless you have those big grass
verges along the sides of the roads.

00:59:49.255 --> 00:59:49.405
Yeah.

00:59:49.585 --> 00:59:54.135
Troy Shaw: But is they can be a blessing
and a a bit of a curse in, in both sort

00:59:54.135 --> 00:59:58.085
of terms because the, the roads can be
a bit quick when they're a bit open.

00:59:59.225 --> 01:00:01.415
People tend not to be
looking ahead and thinking.

01:00:01.905 --> 01:00:04.515
But also they can be nice and relaxing.

01:00:04.515 --> 01:00:07.995
And, but like I said, where we are, we're
very lucky to have this sort of area to

01:00:07.995 --> 01:00:09.675
ride around where it's reasonably safe.

01:00:10.725 --> 01:00:13.485
Rupert Isaacson: And you take your
students out on the, your, your,

01:00:13.545 --> 01:00:14.775
your clients out on the trail.

01:00:15.165 --> 01:00:15.405
Troy Shaw: Yeah.

01:00:16.245 --> 01:00:16.515
Yeah.

01:00:16.725 --> 01:00:17.595
So it's more of a summer thing.

01:00:17.595 --> 01:00:20.895
'cause in the winter it's too
dark and too dingy and nobody

01:00:20.895 --> 01:00:21.915
really wants to do it anyway.

01:00:22.395 --> 01:00:23.925
But it's in the summer it's fantastic,

01:00:24.465 --> 01:00:26.745
Rupert Isaacson: you know, which means
that you got to be also pretty confident

01:00:26.745 --> 01:00:28.215
in the bomb proofing of your horses.

01:00:28.215 --> 01:00:30.105
So if the fire engine comes
around the corner Yeah.

01:00:30.475 --> 01:00:33.175
Your client's not gonna
get dumped or hurt.

01:00:33.445 --> 01:00:34.435
Talk to us about that.

01:00:34.435 --> 01:00:35.365
How do you bombproof them?

01:00:36.115 --> 01:00:37.675
Troy Shaw: Just by exposure
really more than anything else.

01:00:37.675 --> 01:00:41.425
So you, you, you're never gonna know what
a horse is gonna know do until you put

01:00:41.425 --> 01:00:42.925
it in that situation to see what it does.

01:00:43.255 --> 01:00:43.555
Rupert Isaacson: Yeah.

01:00:43.735 --> 01:00:46.765
Troy Shaw: And it, we've had
horses come to us that, you know,

01:00:47.065 --> 01:00:48.265
oh, it can't go past tractors.

01:00:48.355 --> 01:00:50.185
Oh, it can't, oh, it's
terrified of tractors.

01:00:50.545 --> 01:00:53.845
Reality is it's the rider that's terrified
of the tractors and not the horse.

01:00:54.205 --> 01:00:54.445
Rupert Isaacson: Yeah.

01:00:54.535 --> 01:00:56.515
Troy Shaw: And once you put somebody
who's fairly confident in there, you

01:00:56.515 --> 01:01:00.985
can start to get the horse on side
and get used to the environment.

01:01:01.135 --> 01:01:02.395
The environment's always gonna be there.

01:01:02.395 --> 01:01:03.745
You can't take the environment away.

01:01:04.135 --> 01:01:04.495
Rupert Isaacson: Right.

01:01:04.555 --> 01:01:06.445
Troy Shaw: They just need
that exposure, how they manage

01:01:06.445 --> 01:01:07.795
themselves in those conditions.

01:01:08.035 --> 01:01:08.485
Rupert Isaacson: Indeed.

01:01:08.485 --> 01:01:12.685
But you can't, you can't do the
exposure by being out there with a kid.

01:01:13.765 --> 01:01:13.825
Troy Shaw: Yeah.

01:01:13.825 --> 01:01:14.095
We'll do it ourselves.

01:01:14.095 --> 01:01:15.085
We'll get, we'll, we'll go out hack.

01:01:15.085 --> 01:01:19.295
So one of the, one of the big
paybacks for the team is this ability

01:01:19.295 --> 01:01:23.555
to take advantage of the horses
to an extent and go out for hack.

01:01:24.125 --> 01:01:27.065
After work in the summer, you
know, we'll go out as a group and

01:01:27.065 --> 01:01:28.025
go, right, let's go for a hack.

01:01:28.445 --> 01:01:28.565
Right?

01:01:29.045 --> 01:01:32.405
This is where we can go a little bit
more onto the bridal paths through

01:01:32.405 --> 01:01:36.335
some rivers, that kind of stuff, and
start to have a bit more fun, you know?

01:01:36.335 --> 01:01:36.575
Yeah.

01:01:37.115 --> 01:01:41.015
And it, it gives the horses that mental
break, but you can also give the horses

01:01:41.015 --> 01:01:45.245
a bit more exposure to stuff that you
can't necessarily get with the students.

01:01:45.695 --> 01:01:46.205
Rupert Isaacson: Absolutely.

01:01:46.570 --> 01:01:50.555
Troy Shaw: One, one of the things we do
do is we have very clear procedures on

01:01:50.555 --> 01:01:55.625
what if, you know, so what happens if the
big scary tractor comes down the road?

01:01:55.625 --> 01:01:56.225
What are you gonna do?

01:01:56.225 --> 01:01:57.035
Mm-hmm.

01:01:57.070 --> 01:02:00.155
Because we have, we do have horses
that have had a history that that've

01:02:00.155 --> 01:02:01.535
looked and spook at tractors.

01:02:02.345 --> 01:02:04.355
So we have a program, we have, you
know, we'll, we'll know exactly what

01:02:04.355 --> 01:02:08.325
we're going to do and whether we
take the child off or take it to a

01:02:08.325 --> 01:02:12.255
gateway or stand flapping her arms in
front of the tractor to make it stop.

01:02:12.765 --> 01:02:13.005
Right.

01:02:13.005 --> 01:02:13.545
It is.

01:02:13.545 --> 01:02:17.325
We'll have something that actually
we follow to make it work and

01:02:17.325 --> 01:02:18.375
make it work for everybody.

01:02:19.545 --> 01:02:23.085
Rupert Isaacson: What I love about that
though is you don't take the, if you

01:02:23.085 --> 01:02:26.805
like, the easy option of saying, well, we
just won't go out in case it's a tractor.

01:02:27.225 --> 01:02:27.375
Troy Shaw: No.

01:02:27.375 --> 01:02:27.435
Do,

01:02:28.455 --> 01:02:30.825
Rupert Isaacson: because one of
the things I like about that is

01:02:32.955 --> 01:02:36.205
if we're in the business of also
trying to help people deal with

01:02:36.205 --> 01:02:38.455
the world, which is our job, right?

01:02:38.785 --> 01:02:38.905
Yeah.

01:02:39.005 --> 01:02:44.675
Then if we aren't that way with
our horses, how are we gonna

01:02:44.675 --> 01:02:46.385
transfer it to the people?

01:02:46.655 --> 01:02:48.695
And if, and if, one things I
love about horses is 'cause they

01:02:48.695 --> 01:02:50.135
carry you through situations.

01:02:50.840 --> 01:02:54.590
You know, so yeah, I might be afraid
of going up that hill, or I might be

01:02:54.710 --> 01:02:59.390
not fit enough to go up that hill,
or the horse can carry me, or I can't

01:02:59.390 --> 01:03:03.920
understand cognitively yet how to play a
game, but the horse can carry me through

01:03:03.920 --> 01:03:09.350
a game and then as my neuroplasticity
develops, entry cognitively, I will be

01:03:09.350 --> 01:03:11.270
there, but the horse can really help me.

01:03:11.600 --> 01:03:18.520
But, you know, frequently people in the
interest of safety will often dumb it down

01:03:18.520 --> 01:03:20.410
to the point that there is no exploration.

01:03:20.410 --> 01:03:20.470
Yeah.

01:03:20.920 --> 01:03:23.380
There is no risk.

01:03:23.770 --> 01:03:25.600
Now I know that, you know, a
certain number of listeners

01:03:25.600 --> 01:03:26.650
and viewers are gonna go risk.

01:03:26.650 --> 01:03:35.080
You can't have risk, you know, but, but
I, I feel that you have to because you,

01:03:35.080 --> 01:03:37.420
you can't actually get away from risk.

01:03:37.810 --> 01:03:38.020
Troy Shaw: No.

01:03:38.500 --> 01:03:40.990
Rupert Isaacson: So one can think,
one is controlling the environment to

01:03:40.990 --> 01:03:44.500
get away from risk, but you and I both
know that sooner or later something

01:03:44.500 --> 01:03:47.770
is gonna happen, like outside of
your control, they're gonna land a

01:03:47.770 --> 01:03:52.480
helicopter in that field next to your
arena that you never leave or something.

01:03:52.960 --> 01:03:53.380
Yeah.

01:03:53.380 --> 01:03:57.100
And despite all your best efforts,
your horse is gonna totally freak out.

01:03:57.520 --> 01:03:59.860
So rather have them
exposed to helicopters.

01:04:00.550 --> 01:04:05.590
Do you, do you also take them
through like sound bomb proofing

01:04:05.840 --> 01:04:09.150
tarpaulins that sort of thing as well?

01:04:10.335 --> 01:04:13.665
Troy Shaw: We, we will put obstacles in
the menage like Tar Paul is on the floor.

01:04:13.695 --> 01:04:13.785
Right.

01:04:14.105 --> 01:04:17.615
And then because they all live in
the local area to the menage around

01:04:17.615 --> 01:04:20.645
their fields, around the outside
of it, if we're doing a session in

01:04:20.645 --> 01:04:23.045
there, which requires lots of noise
and stuff, they're watching it.

01:04:23.465 --> 01:04:23.705
Rupert Isaacson: Right.

01:04:23.710 --> 01:04:23.910
They're there,

01:04:24.155 --> 01:04:24.935
Troy Shaw: they're in the environment.

01:04:24.935 --> 01:04:28.595
They're not, not being forced the
environment, they're actually sat watching

01:04:28.595 --> 01:04:30.365
it from the safety of their own field.

01:04:30.365 --> 01:04:31.535
So they're sort, they can observe it.

01:04:31.595 --> 01:04:31.805
Yeah.

01:04:31.985 --> 01:04:33.785
Learning from osmosis,
learning through their friends.

01:04:34.265 --> 01:04:37.685
You know, we'll do silly things like
if we're trying to get horses used to

01:04:37.685 --> 01:04:41.645
flags, we'll put a flag over the water
trough, they're gonna want to drink.

01:04:41.675 --> 01:04:44.615
They're not gonna, they'll have to find
a way of getting their manage their

01:04:44.615 --> 01:04:46.265
own sort of fear to get through that.

01:04:46.715 --> 01:04:46.955
Rupert Isaacson: Right.

01:04:47.005 --> 01:04:49.705
Troy Shaw: And it's interesting how
you talked about the the risk level.

01:04:50.215 --> 01:04:53.185
The thing about risk is the other
side of risk is achievement.

01:04:54.175 --> 01:04:56.755
So once you've got through that risk,
you've actually achieved something.

01:04:57.205 --> 01:04:57.565
Rupert Isaacson: Yeah.

01:04:57.660 --> 01:04:59.320
You know, if you And self-esteem Yeah.

01:04:59.320 --> 01:04:59.600
Yeah.

01:05:00.260 --> 01:05:03.775
Troy Shaw: You know, it, it might
be jumping over a small cross pole.

01:05:04.195 --> 01:05:04.435
Rupert Isaacson: Yeah.

01:05:04.495 --> 01:05:05.635
Troy Shaw: There's a hell
of a lot of risk in jumping.

01:05:05.635 --> 01:05:05.785
Yeah.

01:05:06.025 --> 01:05:07.285
Especially for a new rider.

01:05:07.705 --> 01:05:08.005
Rupert Isaacson: Yeah.

01:05:08.095 --> 01:05:12.565
Troy Shaw: But the achievement, once
they've done it far out risk, far

01:05:12.565 --> 01:05:15.565
outweighs out risks as long as the
work's been done in the background.

01:05:16.105 --> 01:05:16.555
Rupert Isaacson: Yeah.

01:05:16.675 --> 01:05:20.005
Troy Shaw: And, you know, you take all
the precautions, which you need to leading

01:05:20.005 --> 01:05:22.735
up without being dramatic about it.

01:05:24.120 --> 01:05:24.650
Rupert Isaacson: It's yes.

01:05:24.650 --> 01:05:26.495
It, it it's about preparation as you say.

01:05:26.495 --> 01:05:26.555
Yeah.

01:05:27.030 --> 01:05:27.845
Troy Shaw: But you, and maybe

01:05:27.845 --> 01:05:30.185
Rupert Isaacson: I think your military
background helps with that because

01:05:30.875 --> 01:05:32.675
you know, or maneuvers and operations.

01:05:32.915 --> 01:05:33.305
Troy Shaw: Yeah.

01:05:33.455 --> 01:05:33.995
Possibly

01:05:34.235 --> 01:05:35.105
Rupert Isaacson: you are putting people.

01:05:35.705 --> 01:05:39.545
In risky situations, but you
wanna bring 'em all back in alive.

01:05:39.605 --> 01:05:39.785
Troy Shaw: Yeah.

01:05:39.965 --> 01:05:45.545
Rupert Isaacson: But also get, you know,
so there must be a certain amount of that

01:05:45.545 --> 01:05:49.395
training that rubbed off on you to think
about how do I prepare from the ground

01:05:49.395 --> 01:05:54.465
up so that when we do have that situation
with the risk, we know that the horse and

01:05:54.465 --> 01:05:56.865
the human are as prepared as they can be.

01:05:57.405 --> 01:05:57.825
Troy Shaw: Yeah.

01:05:57.825 --> 01:05:59.835
And, and you've also, yes, you've
done all your pre-work, you've done as

01:05:59.835 --> 01:06:05.445
much background work as you possibly
can, but there, there comes a time

01:06:05.445 --> 01:06:08.235
when you've almost got to say, you
know what, let's just go for it.

01:06:08.535 --> 01:06:08.865
Rupert Isaacson: Yeah.

01:06:09.015 --> 01:06:10.965
Troy Shaw: Otherwise it becomes
like you'll never do anything

01:06:10.965 --> 01:06:14.955
because, you know, you just won't
actually put that risk in the way.

01:06:15.435 --> 01:06:15.765
Rupert Isaacson: Yeah.

01:06:15.790 --> 01:06:17.805
Troy Shaw: And, and then, and then
there comes a point where you say,

01:06:18.075 --> 01:06:21.495
well actually, I better not run the
menage in case the pheasants fly

01:06:21.495 --> 01:06:22.905
out today because they might fly.

01:06:22.995 --> 01:06:24.045
You know, that's a bigger risk.

01:06:24.045 --> 01:06:28.340
Or you, you, and it's like, I think
you see that in society as a whole

01:06:28.340 --> 01:06:31.430
now you, you risk just gets in the
way of everything and people tend to

01:06:32.180 --> 01:06:34.580
do the less risky thing of sitting
at home and look at the phones.

01:06:35.150 --> 01:06:35.750
Rupert Isaacson: Exactly.

01:06:35.810 --> 01:06:36.500
No, exactly.

01:06:36.960 --> 01:06:38.580
Which of course is a
whole other set of risks.

01:06:39.180 --> 01:06:39.190
Yeah.

01:06:39.240 --> 01:06:39.360
Yeah.

01:06:39.360 --> 01:06:41.370
I'm just thinking back to when we
were in Texas, you know, we had

01:06:41.370 --> 01:06:43.320
everyone and their dog had guns.

01:06:43.320 --> 01:06:43.590
Right.

01:06:43.590 --> 01:06:46.630
So there would be so much
firearms activity going on.

01:06:47.250 --> 01:06:52.770
And then my neighbor, Robert Nam
Vet would build his own artillery

01:06:52.770 --> 01:06:55.500
grade ordinance and set it off Yeah.

01:06:55.500 --> 01:06:56.610
In his front field.

01:06:56.955 --> 01:06:59.565
Which was on the other side
of the woods from our arena.

01:06:59.805 --> 01:07:03.915
And I'd be in there with a kid
and there'd be an explosion, which

01:07:03.915 --> 01:07:05.985
you'd feel like in your bones.

01:07:06.315 --> 01:07:06.495
Troy Shaw: Yeah.

01:07:06.585 --> 01:07:09.705
Rupert Isaacson: And even though it's
happening, you know, 500 meters away.

01:07:10.395 --> 01:07:13.245
And I'm like, what am I gonna do?

01:07:13.335 --> 01:07:16.875
So I thought, well, I can't tell
Robert he can't set off bombs in

01:07:16.875 --> 01:07:18.435
his field because this is Texas.

01:07:18.765 --> 01:07:21.855
So what I'm gonna do is I'm gonna ask
Robert if I can graze my horses in

01:07:21.855 --> 01:07:23.085
the field where he sets his bombs off.

01:07:23.415 --> 01:07:23.625
Troy Shaw: Yeah.

01:07:23.805 --> 01:07:26.355
Rupert Isaacson: And a couple of my
friends from Europe were like, well,

01:07:26.355 --> 01:07:29.055
that, you know, you can't do that 'cause
your horses will freak out and said,

01:07:29.055 --> 01:07:34.245
well, they will initially, but I bet you
after two days they won't give a toss.

01:07:34.485 --> 01:07:34.785
Yeah.

01:07:34.785 --> 01:07:39.505
And then I will know that I'm safe
when he randomly does that thing.

01:07:39.595 --> 01:07:41.515
I have no, I have no control.

01:07:41.515 --> 01:07:44.365
He's not gonna call me and tell
me, you know, he is gonna do it.

01:07:44.635 --> 01:07:47.875
And then it was the same
with, with my other neighbors.

01:07:47.875 --> 01:07:54.125
They would just come and start, you know,
setting off automatic fire but often

01:07:54.125 --> 01:07:58.445
like really close to where we were and we
just had to get the horses okay with it.

01:07:58.450 --> 01:07:58.620
Yeah.

01:07:58.690 --> 01:08:01.030
And so then we took it stage further
and I would think, okay, well

01:08:01.030 --> 01:08:06.250
why don't we go down to the fire
station with our horses and slowly

01:08:06.250 --> 01:08:07.750
bombproof them to the fire truck.

01:08:07.750 --> 01:08:12.370
Then why don't we go to the supermarket
and why don't we go to the car wash and

01:08:12.370 --> 01:08:15.400
why don't we, so we actually started
making a big point about all of that.

01:08:15.550 --> 01:08:18.010
And then of course we started
including our, our students

01:08:18.010 --> 01:08:19.240
and our clients in those Yeah.

01:08:19.600 --> 01:08:20.320
Fun sessions.

01:08:20.320 --> 01:08:21.490
Then we realized, oh my gosh.

01:08:22.240 --> 01:08:26.500
All of this thing, which normally
was taking time out from, and

01:08:26.500 --> 01:08:28.030
it is like a time conflict.

01:08:28.540 --> 01:08:30.310
When are we gonna get the
time to bombproof the horses?

01:08:30.310 --> 01:08:30.970
Like, no, no, no.

01:08:30.970 --> 01:08:31.240
Hold on.

01:08:31.240 --> 01:08:34.330
We can do that with the students
provided you know, you're not

01:08:34.330 --> 01:08:36.190
gonna do anything too crazy.

01:08:36.370 --> 01:08:36.430
Yeah.

01:08:36.430 --> 01:08:37.450
They can be part of it.

01:08:37.875 --> 01:08:38.165
Yeah.

01:08:38.230 --> 01:08:38.500
Yeah.

01:08:39.010 --> 01:08:40.990
Troy Shaw: We had a really, a really,
really good example last year.

01:08:41.020 --> 01:08:46.500
So we take our students to a big
BHS event, a big dressage show

01:08:46.500 --> 01:08:49.230
jumping event over at a place called
Pickering Range in Leicester year.

01:08:49.920 --> 01:08:52.140
And it's, it's a really big
significant thing for the students

01:08:52.140 --> 01:08:54.945
to go out to a dressage, get
dressed up in all of the yes.

01:08:55.325 --> 01:08:57.520
All of the requirements
of a dressage test.

01:08:58.090 --> 01:09:01.960
And last year, or this, sorry, this year
when we went, it was a really windy day.

01:09:02.170 --> 01:09:06.790
I mean, really windy, and they're doing
the dressage tests, but nobody thought

01:09:06.850 --> 01:09:08.350
that the dressage boards might blow.

01:09:09.640 --> 01:09:13.720
So the, when our students riding around
doing the nice dressage tests, and all of

01:09:13.720 --> 01:09:18.020
a sudden these, like big plastic dressage
tests boards just lifted off the ground

01:09:18.950 --> 01:09:22.100
into the air, there must have been the
height of the student riding the horse.

01:09:22.130 --> 01:09:22.520
Wow.

01:09:22.730 --> 01:09:25.430
In normal circumstances, horses would've
just completely freaked on that.

01:09:25.490 --> 01:09:29.810
But our horses tend to be able to accept
something, changing something different

01:09:29.810 --> 01:09:31.460
and they, they'd manage themselves.

01:09:31.880 --> 01:09:33.980
Rupert Isaacson: We can't manage better
than the average foot horse would.

01:09:34.010 --> 01:09:34.490
Yes.

01:09:34.640 --> 01:09:36.980
Troy Shaw: We, we can't manage the
horses emotions for themselves.

01:09:36.980 --> 01:09:38.990
We can't sit on the horse's back
and say, no, you are all right.

01:09:38.990 --> 01:09:39.440
You're all right.

01:09:39.440 --> 01:09:40.160
'cause they won't listen.

01:09:40.490 --> 01:09:40.790
Rupert Isaacson: Yeah.

01:09:41.270 --> 01:09:43.670
Troy Shaw: They have to be able to
manage it themselves, you know, and

01:09:43.670 --> 01:09:46.760
be able to go, right, rationally, what
am I gonna do now, you know, my, my,

01:09:46.880 --> 01:09:48.200
my brain's telling me to run away.

01:09:48.275 --> 01:09:48.335
Yeah.

01:09:48.845 --> 01:09:49.025
Rupert Isaacson: You

01:09:49.205 --> 01:09:51.035
Troy Shaw: know, I'll get rid of
this rider now and I'll be off into

01:09:51.035 --> 01:09:52.415
the sunset 'cause I'll be safe then.

01:09:52.415 --> 01:09:57.305
But, but they seem to just manage
themselves to the point where they can go.

01:09:58.535 --> 01:10:01.745
Like we would take a deep breath, let's
think logically, which doesn't sound right

01:10:01.745 --> 01:10:03.125
of a horse, but actually it does work.

01:10:03.395 --> 01:10:03.845
Rupert Isaacson: Yeah.

01:10:04.025 --> 01:10:05.345
Troy Shaw: And that's
what we try and get to.

01:10:05.975 --> 01:10:07.385
Rupert Isaacson: Well it's
interesting you say that.

01:10:07.385 --> 01:10:10.055
And again, I think that the, the
calvary background, the hunting

01:10:10.055 --> 01:10:13.325
background, all of these things
bring us into these situations.

01:10:13.325 --> 01:10:16.445
I grew up very much in the hunt
world and you just never know what

01:10:16.445 --> 01:10:17.615
you're gonna encounter at hunting.

01:10:17.615 --> 01:10:19.535
It could be anything.

01:10:19.835 --> 01:10:26.225
And your horse kind of after a while
becomes kind of okay with everything.

01:10:26.345 --> 01:10:26.525
Troy Shaw: Yeah.

01:10:26.765 --> 01:10:28.595
Rupert Isaacson: Through
slow exposure as you say.

01:10:29.015 --> 01:10:34.055
And sometimes strategic exposures, you
know, before you might meet something.

01:10:34.475 --> 01:10:38.465
But I love the fact that you, you
have that example of, you know,

01:10:38.675 --> 01:10:41.195
going to that show that happening.

01:10:41.315 --> 01:10:44.435
I would posit that probably
some of the dressage horses

01:10:44.585 --> 01:10:46.265
probably freaked out a lot more

01:10:46.625 --> 01:10:46.835
Troy Shaw: Yeah.

01:10:46.865 --> 01:10:50.285
Rupert Isaacson: Than your horses
did because the sport rider

01:10:50.285 --> 01:10:55.355
wouldn't necessarily feel the need
to create that safety in a horse.

01:10:55.355 --> 01:10:55.415
No.

01:10:55.655 --> 01:10:58.895
Because they're not dealing with the risks
that you're dealing with, with the riders.

01:10:58.900 --> 01:10:58.910
Yeah.

01:11:00.125 --> 01:11:00.335
Troy Shaw: Yeah.

01:11:00.335 --> 01:11:03.575
And I think one of the other things
well is to exposing the horses is one

01:11:03.575 --> 01:11:08.735
thing, but it's also exposing the team
to these situations so you can expose the

01:11:08.735 --> 01:11:10.685
horses yourself to the cows come home.

01:11:10.685 --> 01:11:15.245
But you are, if you are riding them,
you are the person who is effectively.

01:11:15.935 --> 01:11:17.465
With them while you're exposing them.

01:11:17.855 --> 01:11:18.155
Rupert Isaacson: Yes.

01:11:18.335 --> 01:11:22.115
Troy Shaw: If you don't get the rest
of the team in those circumstances,

01:11:22.115 --> 01:11:23.255
they might be a dressage rider.

01:11:23.255 --> 01:11:25.025
That's all they do is dressage.

01:11:25.025 --> 01:11:28.385
So anything different
is, you know, a horror.

01:11:28.865 --> 01:11:29.255
Rupert Isaacson: Yeah.

01:11:29.345 --> 01:11:30.605
Troy Shaw: They don't ride through those.

01:11:31.775 --> 01:11:35.495
They're, they're, they're not
gonna learn that actually it

01:11:35.495 --> 01:11:36.845
is okay to ride in the wind.

01:11:37.325 --> 01:11:37.415
Yeah.

01:11:37.420 --> 01:11:41.825
Or it's okay to ride, you know, in these
circumstances or those circumstances.

01:11:41.825 --> 01:11:41.915
Right.

01:11:41.915 --> 01:11:42.155
Feather gets

01:11:42.155 --> 01:11:42.755
Rupert Isaacson: up in front of you.

01:11:42.755 --> 01:11:43.625
It's not the end of the world.

01:11:43.625 --> 01:11:44.075
Yeah.

01:11:44.080 --> 01:11:44.090
Yeah.

01:11:44.555 --> 01:11:46.360
Troy Shaw: So you've gotta build
the, it's almost like building the,

01:11:46.380 --> 01:11:50.105
the team's responsibility and, and
reactions as well as the horses.

01:11:51.305 --> 01:11:52.295
Rupert Isaacson: It's true because Yeah.

01:11:52.295 --> 01:11:55.445
It's the humans' involved also are
not freaking out when the tractor

01:11:55.445 --> 01:11:58.355
comes or the, then the horse is gonna
take their cues from the humans.

01:11:58.475 --> 01:11:58.805
Troy Shaw: Yeah.

01:11:58.805 --> 01:11:58.815
Yeah.

01:11:59.375 --> 01:12:02.370
Because I mean, the, the, I always
tell everybody as well, one of the

01:12:02.370 --> 01:12:03.955
things to remember is you've got time.

01:12:04.405 --> 01:12:06.685
It doesn't feel like you've got time,
but you can take a couple of seconds

01:12:06.685 --> 01:12:08.065
to a think about what you're gonna do.

01:12:08.070 --> 01:12:08.220
Mm-hmm.

01:12:09.355 --> 01:12:09.535
Rupert Isaacson: This,

01:12:09.535 --> 01:12:11.275
Troy Shaw: the circumstances,
this is what I'm gonna do.

01:12:13.165 --> 01:12:16.015
And you can just think rationally
and it helps you just a little,

01:12:16.855 --> 01:12:17.995
have a bit of a head start.

01:12:19.255 --> 01:12:19.795
Rupert Isaacson: Yeah.

01:12:19.795 --> 01:12:22.345
I, I, I'm thinking back to, you know,
this is where, again, back to where

01:12:22.345 --> 01:12:23.875
we're talking about fun and silliness.

01:12:23.965 --> 01:12:28.225
I think that when you've got that
kind of culture in your barn, then

01:12:28.225 --> 01:12:32.845
there's also kind of a base under
underlying message that's always there.

01:12:33.145 --> 01:12:33.235
Yeah.

01:12:33.240 --> 01:12:36.355
For the horses and the humans
saying it's always all right.

01:12:36.355 --> 01:12:37.555
It's always gonna be all right.

01:12:37.615 --> 01:12:37.825
Troy Shaw: Yeah.

01:12:38.305 --> 01:12:42.085
Rupert Isaacson: And most
situations will be fun actually.

01:12:42.085 --> 01:12:42.095
Yeah.

01:12:42.510 --> 01:12:44.580
So what that I think
breeds is a certain faith.

01:12:45.060 --> 01:12:46.560
The horses have faith in the humans.

01:12:46.740 --> 01:12:48.420
The humans have faith in the horses.

01:12:48.900 --> 01:12:50.520
Give me some examples.

01:12:50.550 --> 01:12:53.670
You know, we, we, we touched on
the dress up and the silliness.

01:12:53.790 --> 01:12:59.490
Can you give me some examples, some
stories that stand out in your mind about

01:12:59.940 --> 01:13:06.900
breakthroughs that happened in the course
of those silly dress up sessions And,

01:13:07.170 --> 01:13:12.510
and why you, and, and also what, what's
the pattern of the dress up sessions,

01:13:12.810 --> 01:13:14.400
the historical ones, the pirate ones?

01:13:14.580 --> 01:13:15.270
When do you do them?

01:13:15.270 --> 01:13:16.170
Why do you do them?

01:13:16.480 --> 01:13:19.570
What makes you choose okay, to
this today's the medieval day.

01:13:19.750 --> 01:13:20.710
Tomorrow's a pirate day.

01:13:20.710 --> 01:13:23.770
Like what, what's the rationale
going on with all that?

01:13:23.980 --> 01:13:27.610
And then, yeah, give us some
examples of changes you've seen

01:13:27.610 --> 01:13:28.930
in those, in those moments.

01:13:28.930 --> 01:13:34.490
if you're a horse nerd, and if you're on
this podcast, I'm guessing you are, then

01:13:34.500 --> 01:13:39.490
you've probably also always wondered a
little bit about the old master system.

01:13:39.955 --> 01:13:41.265
of dressage training.

01:13:41.305 --> 01:13:49.875
If you go and check out our Helios Harmony
program, we outline there step by step

01:13:49.945 --> 01:13:56.225
exactly how to train your horse from
the ground to become the dressage horse

01:13:56.235 --> 01:14:02.755
of your dreams in a way that absolutely
serves the physical, mental and emotional

01:14:02.805 --> 01:14:05.575
well being of the horse and the rider.

01:14:05.635 --> 01:14:06.375
Intrigued?

01:14:06.575 --> 01:14:07.435
Like to know more?

01:14:08.305 --> 01:14:11.135
Go to our website, Helios Harmony.

01:14:12.835 --> 01:14:14.525
Check out the free introduction course.

01:14:15.085 --> 01:14:15.605
Take it from there.

01:14:16.109 --> 01:14:16.139
I,

01:14:16.139 --> 01:14:19.204
Troy Shaw: I think the, the dress
up day sometimes just work on how

01:14:19.204 --> 01:14:21.984
you're feel in the morning or depends
on what student you're working with.

01:14:22.314 --> 01:14:23.934
Rupert Isaacson: So you might
just do that spontaneously.

01:14:23.994 --> 01:14:24.654
Troy Shaw: Yeah, yeah.

01:14:25.074 --> 01:14:28.514
I've got, I've got a pretty pretty
horror story for one of our new starters.

01:14:28.934 --> 01:14:32.504
So we had a, a lady, this is going
back probably six, seven years ago.

01:14:32.864 --> 01:14:36.344
It was her first day at work, and
I was working for a particular

01:14:36.344 --> 01:14:39.224
student, and I decided this
week was gonna be Scottish week.

01:14:39.674 --> 01:14:40.004
Rupert Isaacson: Okay.

01:14:40.274 --> 01:14:42.194
Troy Shaw: So I dressed up in a
kilt, it wasn't a kilt, it was a

01:14:42.194 --> 01:14:43.394
blanket that looked like a kilt.

01:14:44.354 --> 01:14:46.574
I wrapped around my legs, but it
actually looked like a miniskirt.

01:14:48.014 --> 01:14:51.224
And, and it sounds horrific now when
you think about it, but I had a drum.

01:14:51.884 --> 01:14:55.274
I was marching around the yard
playing a drum in this miniskirt,

01:14:55.274 --> 01:14:56.504
which I had trousers underneath it.

01:14:56.954 --> 01:15:01.304
Talking Scottish and just to try
and get the student to engage

01:15:01.309 --> 01:15:02.144
it, it worked really well.

01:15:02.144 --> 01:15:06.764
But the, the poor new starter staff
was like, what have I let myself into?

01:15:07.874 --> 01:15:11.684
But it, it sort of, the dressing
up doesn't really, sometimes it'll,

01:15:12.104 --> 01:15:14.504
in fact, sometimes when you plan
it, it doesn't work as well as

01:15:14.504 --> 01:15:15.614
it does when it's spontaneous.

01:15:16.334 --> 01:15:19.964
Rupert Isaacson: So you'll do it
sort of by, you just wake up in the

01:15:19.964 --> 01:15:21.074
morning and you say, you know what?

01:15:21.074 --> 01:15:24.389
I fancy today's pirate day and Okay.

01:15:24.659 --> 01:15:24.949
Troy Shaw: Yeah.

01:15:24.949 --> 01:15:25.389
Or, and

01:15:25.904 --> 01:15:28.214
Rupert Isaacson: so you won't necessarily
call all your staff and say, okay,

01:15:28.214 --> 01:15:32.174
lads, today's pirate day you'll just
show up as a pirate, or, or will you

01:15:32.234 --> 01:15:33.989
send out a bunch of texts and say it?

01:15:34.004 --> 01:15:34.874
Troy Shaw: It's quite,
it's quite interesting.

01:15:34.874 --> 01:15:37.724
So when we, what, what we most
of the dress up takes place

01:15:37.724 --> 01:15:39.034
now over the holiday period.

01:15:39.034 --> 01:15:41.494
So we'll say that the theme
for this week for the holiday

01:15:41.494 --> 01:15:45.724
sessions is, I know we're gonna be
pirates or we're gonna be cowboys.

01:15:46.294 --> 01:15:50.104
And the problem with that,
because you, you're reliant on

01:15:50.104 --> 01:15:51.574
the confidence of the individuals

01:15:51.724 --> 01:15:52.084
Rupert Isaacson: mm-hmm.

01:15:52.324 --> 01:15:55.534
Troy Shaw: It can sometimes not
work as well because they won't

01:15:55.534 --> 01:15:56.824
come in fully committed to it.

01:15:57.274 --> 01:15:57.574
Rupert Isaacson: Right.

01:15:57.574 --> 01:15:58.834
A bit like kind of forced fund.

01:15:58.839 --> 01:15:59.079
Yeah.

01:15:59.084 --> 01:15:59.344
Yeah.

01:15:59.344 --> 01:15:59.914
You've got

01:15:59.914 --> 01:16:02.704
Troy Shaw: to, you have to be like,
go back to the authenticity of it.

01:16:02.704 --> 01:16:07.144
If you don't put, if you do it half cocked

01:16:07.474 --> 01:16:07.864
Rupert Isaacson: Yeah.

01:16:08.014 --> 01:16:09.664
Troy Shaw: Across a lot worse
than if you didn't do it at all.

01:16:11.074 --> 01:16:16.304
So it's something that's better done if
it's less spontaneous or more spontaneous

01:16:16.964 --> 01:16:18.854
and people get involved through actually.

01:16:18.944 --> 01:16:19.664
I dunno.

01:16:19.694 --> 01:16:22.094
I, I'll get dressed up,
there's a box of stuff there.

01:16:22.754 --> 01:16:24.494
Put it on if you want
to, that kind of thing.

01:16:24.494 --> 01:16:24.614
Rupert Isaacson: Right.

01:16:25.094 --> 01:16:26.474
Troy Shaw: Rather than
be a force kind of thing.

01:16:26.534 --> 01:16:28.724
Rupert Isaacson: But will
you do it like weekly?

01:16:28.724 --> 01:16:29.684
Will you do it monthly?

01:16:29.684 --> 01:16:31.874
Will like months go by
and you don't do it or?

01:16:32.234 --> 01:16:32.394
Troy Shaw: Yeah, yeah.

01:16:32.394 --> 01:16:35.144
We go, we could go months without
doing any kind of dress up or

01:16:35.289 --> 01:16:36.639
mean this time of year is perfect.

01:16:36.639 --> 01:16:37.989
Got Halloween and stuff like that.

01:16:38.049 --> 01:16:38.319
Yeah.

01:16:38.319 --> 01:16:41.649
I mean, today I been up the field
this morning and half the students

01:16:41.649 --> 01:16:44.349
have come in dressed as skeletons and

01:16:44.649 --> 01:16:45.009
Rupert Isaacson: Yeah.

01:16:45.279 --> 01:16:46.389
Troy Shaw: Wizards and all sorts.

01:16:46.389 --> 01:16:46.869
So it's great.

01:16:46.869 --> 01:16:47.229
Like, okay.

01:16:47.829 --> 01:16:50.499
They've really embraced the
dressing up, so that's really good.

01:16:51.259 --> 01:16:53.719
Rupert Isaacson: And then in terms
of the silliness, like for example

01:16:53.799 --> 01:16:58.509
Henrik and Giddy Bert Coffee run that
amazing place horse by place in Germany.

01:16:58.719 --> 01:16:58.839
Troy Shaw: Yeah.

01:16:58.919 --> 01:17:01.729
Rupert Isaacson: They have all these
really cool mechanisms for sitting.

01:17:01.729 --> 01:17:06.529
It's like they do these pillow fights
on horses and then she gi has these

01:17:06.529 --> 01:17:11.339
toilet brushes where she uses them
as like, microphones in an interview.

01:17:11.639 --> 01:17:11.699
Yeah.

01:17:11.699 --> 01:17:15.449
And then she gets the kids to also
go dip them in a bucket and then

01:17:15.449 --> 01:17:18.209
go and chuck the water from the
toilet brush at their parents.

01:17:18.599 --> 01:17:18.719
Yeah.

01:17:18.719 --> 01:17:20.459
And so, and then they
have like a toilet Yeah.

01:17:20.459 --> 01:17:21.989
That sits in a sandpit.

01:17:22.329 --> 01:17:24.879
And they pretend to use the
toilet like in front of the kids.

01:17:25.089 --> 01:17:28.149
And of course this actually often
does end up being a breakthrough for

01:17:28.149 --> 01:17:31.179
toilet training, but they're prepared
to make themselves very silly.

01:17:31.419 --> 01:17:34.819
Do you have some, you know,
specific strategies like that?

01:17:36.139 --> 01:17:37.399
Some go-tos.

01:17:37.429 --> 01:17:37.639
Yeah.

01:17:37.644 --> 01:17:39.229
Troy Shaw: It's more of, it's
more of an underpinning rather

01:17:39.229 --> 01:17:40.069
than a strategy, I think.

01:17:40.069 --> 01:17:43.919
'cause once you've got that
approach in your mind you'll

01:17:43.919 --> 01:17:45.479
use it throughout the session.

01:17:45.479 --> 01:17:48.879
So our, our sessions are
fairly, it's education based.

01:17:48.879 --> 01:17:48.939
Yeah.

01:17:49.029 --> 01:17:55.119
So most of the students that come
to us are here for either taken

01:17:55.119 --> 01:17:59.949
away a qualification, like a city in
guilds, in horse care open awards,

01:18:00.009 --> 01:18:01.359
mass in English, that kind of stuff.

01:18:02.089 --> 01:18:06.979
So there is a, a, a tangible outcome
from it, but it, no one can prescribe

01:18:06.979 --> 01:18:08.689
how you get that tangible outcome.

01:18:09.049 --> 01:18:09.199
Rupert Isaacson: Mm-hmm.

01:18:09.619 --> 01:18:13.039
Troy Shaw: So the underpinning part
could be, you might say, I dunno,

01:18:13.039 --> 01:18:14.239
I'm gonna do some maths today.

01:18:14.539 --> 01:18:16.849
I'm gonna dress up as dick Turpen.

01:18:16.879 --> 01:18:20.329
'cause we can talk about how long it
takes to get from London to York and the

01:18:20.329 --> 01:18:21.739
reality of it and all that sort of stuff.

01:18:22.489 --> 01:18:25.129
So you can use those to actually
get what you want out of it.

01:18:25.664 --> 01:18:26.509
Rupert Isaacson: It's, it's just Right.

01:18:26.509 --> 01:18:29.809
Almost like a distraction to say
don't be afraid of the maths.

01:18:29.809 --> 01:18:31.279
Actually, we're gonna
talk about highwayman.

01:18:31.639 --> 01:18:31.789
Yeah.

01:18:31.789 --> 01:18:34.939
And in the course of talking
about highwaymen, we're gonna talk

01:18:34.939 --> 01:18:36.139
about distance and then distance.

01:18:36.139 --> 01:18:37.339
We're gonna talk about numbers, right?

01:18:37.399 --> 01:18:37.609
Troy Shaw: Yeah.

01:18:38.059 --> 01:18:39.889
Or somebody went write or read.

01:18:40.159 --> 01:18:41.989
You can give 'em a bit of paper
and they can make a poster.

01:18:42.439 --> 01:18:42.679
Rupert Isaacson: Yeah.

01:18:43.159 --> 01:18:45.409
Troy Shaw: But they're now writing and
reading because they've got to, to do the

01:18:45.409 --> 01:18:47.749
poster, but they're not doing it because
they've been told to go write and read.

01:18:47.749 --> 01:18:49.219
They're doing it because
it's part of the fun.

01:18:49.699 --> 01:18:50.359
Absolutely.

01:18:50.449 --> 01:18:53.029
We'll catch Dick Turpen if we
buy, put a poster on the woods.

01:18:53.419 --> 01:18:53.929
Rupert Isaacson: Right.

01:18:53.974 --> 01:18:54.064
Right.

01:18:54.664 --> 01:18:58.444
Troy Shaw: So it's, it's, it's all,
it's, it's hard to describe it.

01:18:58.594 --> 01:19:00.874
We don't go out with the intention
of doing it, but it actually becomes

01:19:00.874 --> 01:19:05.944
part of how we plan and move into
the session to get the best outcomes.

01:19:06.814 --> 01:19:07.534
Rupert Isaacson: It's so true.

01:19:07.539 --> 01:19:11.254
And I, yeah, I use this type
of distraction all the time.

01:19:11.254 --> 01:19:13.474
I'm just thinking about, you know,
we often do think all crazy time with

01:19:13.474 --> 01:19:17.774
our horses, so, I like my horses to
be able to go a bit nuts sometimes

01:19:17.804 --> 01:19:20.954
and free jump usually in a group.

01:19:21.074 --> 01:19:22.994
And I'll involve my students with that.

01:19:23.044 --> 01:19:25.764
And so let's say we want to do some math.

01:19:26.074 --> 01:19:27.664
I'm not gonna say we're doing maths.

01:19:27.844 --> 01:19:30.214
I'm gonna say let's give some
crazy time to the horses.

01:19:30.214 --> 01:19:30.934
They'll enjoy it.

01:19:31.924 --> 01:19:34.384
And you'll enjoy moving
the horses as they do it.

01:19:34.389 --> 01:19:34.449
Yeah.

01:19:34.684 --> 01:19:40.354
But while we're doing it, I wonder how
long that long side of the arena is,

01:19:40.564 --> 01:19:42.964
let's walk it, how many paces is it?

01:19:42.969 --> 01:19:42.979
Yeah.

01:19:43.174 --> 01:19:45.124
And then we can time with a stopwatch.

01:19:45.374 --> 01:19:47.474
How long does it take for the
horses to go that distance?

01:19:47.474 --> 01:19:50.414
And then on my cell phone, I could
do distance over time and get

01:19:50.414 --> 01:19:53.444
speed, you know, or there can be
the heights of the jumps and the

01:19:53.444 --> 01:19:57.764
distances and, and then there's a team
building of setting up that course.

01:19:57.974 --> 01:20:03.189
But I want a math outcome, but I'm gonna
use something else to get that math out.

01:20:03.309 --> 01:20:04.189
I mean, if you know what I mean.

01:20:04.189 --> 01:20:04.509
Yeah, yeah.

01:20:04.509 --> 01:20:04.709
Exactly.

01:20:04.714 --> 01:20:06.554
It sounds like you're coming
from a very similar place there.

01:20:06.614 --> 01:20:07.394
Troy Shaw: Yeah, we, it is.

01:20:08.339 --> 01:20:10.334
It's, it's all about how you
get the outcome, isn't it?

01:20:10.339 --> 01:20:11.844
And how you actually get the engagement.

01:20:12.489 --> 01:20:12.699
Rupert Isaacson: And I

01:20:12.699 --> 01:20:15.619
Troy Shaw: think part of the reason
why a lot of the children struggle,

01:20:15.739 --> 01:20:20.389
especially the quieter ones, is they
need something to stimulate them, to

01:20:20.389 --> 01:20:22.519
get the engagement to, to, to that.

01:20:22.699 --> 01:20:23.479
Well, I guess what we are

01:20:23.479 --> 01:20:25.279
Rupert Isaacson: talking
about here is play, right?

01:20:25.669 --> 01:20:25.989
Yeah, yeah, yeah.

01:20:26.419 --> 01:20:31.369
All the neuroscientists now
agree that play is learning, and

01:20:31.369 --> 01:20:34.759
learning is play, and the most
effective learning is always play.

01:20:34.999 --> 01:20:35.269
Troy Shaw: Yeah.

01:20:35.449 --> 01:20:35.689
Right.

01:20:36.529 --> 01:20:39.769
But, but in, I get back to some days in
the corporate world, some of the times

01:20:39.769 --> 01:20:43.879
that you probably had the best team
outputs is when you went on a team day

01:20:44.269 --> 01:20:44.659
Rupert Isaacson: Yeah.

01:20:44.899 --> 01:20:47.659
Troy Shaw: And you did things which
are away from your desk, and you

01:20:47.659 --> 01:20:50.659
were physically active and you'd
make something or you'd be silly.

01:20:51.469 --> 01:20:51.859
Rupert Isaacson: Yeah.

01:20:51.979 --> 01:20:54.259
Troy Shaw: People would talk about those
for a lot longer than they would do,

01:20:54.379 --> 01:20:58.999
you know, how they got to the financial
year end and all that sort of stuff.

01:20:58.999 --> 01:21:00.769
So it became really important.

01:21:02.269 --> 01:21:03.259
Rupert Isaacson: No, it's so true.

01:21:03.259 --> 01:21:06.969
And this, to, to show people
that you can enjoy life

01:21:06.969 --> 01:21:07.569
Troy Shaw: mm-hmm.

01:21:07.744 --> 01:21:09.764
Rupert Isaacson: And that you should
enjoy life, you know, particularly

01:21:09.764 --> 01:21:13.839
people who are coming out of, you
know, some depression and that sort of

01:21:13.839 --> 01:21:14.019
Troy Shaw: thing.

01:21:14.019 --> 01:21:14.079
Yeah.

01:21:14.534 --> 01:21:14.824
Rupert Isaacson: Yeah.

01:21:15.129 --> 01:21:16.059
To be around joy.

01:21:16.509 --> 01:21:16.809
Troy Shaw: Yeah.

01:21:17.889 --> 01:21:21.549
I mean, it's really, it's really important
to, and it's quite easy to get to a

01:21:21.549 --> 01:21:23.259
point where you forget how to laugh.

01:21:23.799 --> 01:21:24.459
Rupert Isaacson: No kidding.

01:21:24.609 --> 01:21:26.229
Troy Shaw: Or when to laugh or, you know,

01:21:26.859 --> 01:21:28.899
Rupert Isaacson: or that it's, is
is it even safe to laugh, you know?

01:21:28.904 --> 01:21:29.174
Yeah,

01:21:29.174 --> 01:21:29.374
Troy Shaw: yeah.

01:21:29.374 --> 01:21:31.599
But yeah, especially nowadays,
you, you, you know, you're not sure

01:21:31.599 --> 01:21:32.919
whether the, what the triggers are.

01:21:33.159 --> 01:21:36.429
You laugh shouldn, you laugh, you
know, and it's, it is quite hard.

01:21:36.434 --> 01:21:36.694
Rupert Isaacson: Yeah.

01:21:38.094 --> 01:21:38.784
No, it is.

01:21:38.844 --> 01:21:41.694
You know, I'm, I'm thinking back
to, to when I had to teach Rowan

01:21:41.694 --> 01:21:43.644
my son to drive, he was 16.

01:21:44.004 --> 01:21:46.704
You know, I'm now, I'm gonna
teach my autistic son to drive.

01:21:46.884 --> 01:21:46.944
Yeah.

01:21:46.944 --> 01:21:49.254
And I'm gonna teach him to
drive on the roads of Texas.

01:21:49.764 --> 01:21:50.364
Terrifying.

01:21:50.754 --> 01:21:50.904
Troy Shaw: Yeah.

01:21:51.054 --> 01:21:52.104
Rupert Isaacson: And I was terrified.

01:21:52.104 --> 01:21:54.924
He was terrified, but he was
adamant he wanted to do it.

01:21:55.494 --> 01:22:03.594
And so we sat there and I said to him,
how are we gonna make this unstressful?

01:22:03.774 --> 01:22:06.684
Because I'm, I'm not gonna
lie, I'm totally stressing it.

01:22:06.984 --> 01:22:10.014
And he said, do it in an Indian accent.

01:22:11.214 --> 01:22:11.394
Troy Shaw: Right.

01:22:11.394 --> 01:22:11.404
Yeah.

01:22:12.619 --> 01:22:13.039
Rupert Isaacson: Genius.

01:22:13.629 --> 01:22:13.919
Troy Shaw: Yeah.

01:22:14.514 --> 01:22:17.694
Rupert Isaacson: It took, it just
made the whole thing hilarious.

01:22:17.694 --> 01:22:21.804
Now, someone today might come, I mean,
it is still today, but, you know, when he

01:22:21.804 --> 01:22:23.634
was 16, that's what, five, six years ago.

01:22:23.634 --> 01:22:29.184
But the advance of, you know,
savage political correctness to the

01:22:29.184 --> 01:22:32.364
point now that someone might say,
you can't do that Rupert, because

01:22:32.574 --> 01:22:36.084
that's, you know, racist or that's,
you know, it's like, no, it's not.

01:22:36.324 --> 01:22:37.284
That's not where it's coming from.

01:22:37.464 --> 01:22:40.524
And by the way, you are very
welcome to make fun of my accent.

01:22:40.884 --> 01:22:41.034
Troy Shaw: Yeah.

01:22:41.124 --> 01:22:44.844
Rupert Isaacson: If that's gonna
help teach someone autistic

01:22:44.849 --> 01:22:46.614
to, to drive, absolutely.

01:22:46.974 --> 01:22:48.204
Take the piss out of me.

01:22:48.444 --> 01:22:48.654
Troy Shaw: Yeah.

01:22:48.654 --> 01:22:48.924
But it

01:22:48.924 --> 01:22:51.624
Rupert Isaacson: wasn't a
disrespect, it wasn't a piss take.

01:22:51.894 --> 01:22:53.904
What it was, was a distraction.

01:22:54.459 --> 01:22:56.829
And using it for comedic effect.

01:22:56.979 --> 01:23:00.669
But we could have used a Yorkshire
accent or we could have used a posh

01:23:00.669 --> 01:23:03.249
accent, or we could have used anything.

01:23:03.699 --> 01:23:03.879
Troy Shaw: Yeah.

01:23:03.939 --> 01:23:04.659
Rupert Isaacson: A French accent.

01:23:04.659 --> 01:23:08.199
But he, but as you say, it's, these
things are becoming harder and harder

01:23:08.529 --> 01:23:13.569
because now I think our reaction
might be, oh, am I allowed to do that?

01:23:13.809 --> 01:23:14.979
You know, is, is that safe?

01:23:15.159 --> 01:23:16.509
Will I get in trouble if I do that?

01:23:16.509 --> 01:23:18.759
You know, and then so
maybe I won't do that.

01:23:18.999 --> 01:23:21.339
And then suddenly that
opportunity is lost.

01:23:21.729 --> 01:23:27.399
It, it's interesting how there's
now an assumption that any sort

01:23:27.399 --> 01:23:28.839
of stereotyping is negative.

01:23:29.379 --> 01:23:33.729
When, of course our entire society's
always stereotyping constantly

01:23:34.119 --> 01:23:37.479
because how can we not, because
we, we have to generalize, right?

01:23:38.079 --> 01:23:39.579
Not everything can be specific.

01:23:39.909 --> 01:23:41.829
That's what advertising,
it's always disrespectful.

01:23:41.889 --> 01:23:42.099
Yeah.

01:23:42.669 --> 01:23:45.759
Troy Shaw: But if you, in the media,
that's how you advertise, isn't it?

01:23:45.759 --> 01:23:48.339
You have to stereotype to
get your, to better do sales.

01:23:49.449 --> 01:23:53.169
Rupert Isaacson: I mean, one has
to stereotype, even to the point of

01:23:53.169 --> 01:24:00.389
saying, for example, let's say I say
Troy is a rider, he's a horse guy.

01:24:01.259 --> 01:24:02.459
Well, that's a stereotype.

01:24:02.639 --> 01:24:02.849
Troy Shaw: Yeah.

01:24:03.099 --> 01:24:04.779
Rupert Isaacson: You might say
to me, well, no, Rupert, that's

01:24:04.779 --> 01:24:05.889
a lot more to me than that.

01:24:05.974 --> 01:24:06.194
Troy Shaw: Mm.

01:24:06.609 --> 01:24:06.759
And

01:24:06.759 --> 01:24:10.659
Rupert Isaacson: I'd say, well, I'm sure
there is, but I also know that you spend

01:24:10.749 --> 01:24:12.999
a big chunk of your day riding horses.

01:24:13.149 --> 01:24:14.979
So therefore I'm gonna
say that you're a rider.

01:24:15.639 --> 01:24:17.979
But that's meaning, no disrespect to you.

01:24:18.519 --> 01:24:22.419
That's just sort of acknowledging
that that is your predominant culture.

01:24:22.419 --> 01:24:22.719
Right?

01:24:22.804 --> 01:24:24.444
I mean, surely that's all right.

01:24:25.119 --> 01:24:27.489
Troy Shaw: But, and I think, I think
it'll eventually come full circle

01:24:27.489 --> 01:24:30.609
because I think people will realize
that we're actually making life so hard

01:24:30.609 --> 01:24:33.639
for ourselves by being overly critical.

01:24:34.089 --> 01:24:34.539
Rupert Isaacson: Yeah.

01:24:34.869 --> 01:24:37.779
Troy Shaw: You know, and, and in fact,
the most critical people out there that

01:24:37.779 --> 01:24:41.199
are yourself, you, you tend to second
guess yourself a little bit too much.

01:24:41.199 --> 01:24:43.509
And then once you start
second guessing yourself

01:24:43.659 --> 01:24:44.229
Rupert Isaacson: Yeah, that's true.

01:24:44.259 --> 01:24:44.349
You

01:24:44.349 --> 01:24:46.179
Troy Shaw: then start going,
well, I better not do that.

01:24:46.374 --> 01:24:46.664
Yeah.

01:24:46.719 --> 01:24:47.679
Or I better not say that.

01:24:47.679 --> 01:24:54.189
Or, and then, then you start to go
down the reading from text and you

01:24:54.189 --> 01:24:59.709
lose that, the ability to connect
through feeling and, you know, nature

01:24:59.709 --> 01:25:02.709
and doing everything through I know.

01:25:02.979 --> 01:25:04.119
Sincerity, I suppose.

01:25:04.119 --> 01:25:04.359
Yeah.

01:25:04.359 --> 01:25:04.479
It's

01:25:04.479 --> 01:25:05.409
Rupert Isaacson: authenticity.

01:25:05.559 --> 01:25:05.829
Troy Shaw: Mm.

01:25:06.699 --> 01:25:07.599
Rupert Isaacson: No, I so agree.

01:25:07.599 --> 01:25:08.259
I so agree.

01:25:08.259 --> 01:25:10.119
And nature, nature doesn't care.

01:25:10.689 --> 01:25:12.909
No horses don, human ideas.

01:25:12.909 --> 01:25:17.214
Like no, what's appropriate
Nature just is, right?

01:25:17.244 --> 01:25:17.534
Yeah,

01:25:17.564 --> 01:25:17.854
Troy Shaw: yeah,

01:25:18.894 --> 01:25:19.184
Rupert Isaacson: yeah.

01:25:19.259 --> 01:25:23.759
And we, and we have to prepare people
for quote unquote, the real world.

01:25:24.329 --> 01:25:30.104
So if they don't encounter humor,
silliness, piss state irony.

01:25:31.224 --> 01:25:34.229
Troy Shaw: I, I think it's the scary
thing is the, the real world is

01:25:34.229 --> 01:25:35.939
horrendous for some of these students.

01:25:35.999 --> 01:25:36.059
Yeah.

01:25:36.059 --> 01:25:36.899
Especially some of ours.

01:25:36.899 --> 01:25:40.679
You know what the, the things
they are exposed to the.

01:25:42.344 --> 01:25:45.164
Especially through things like
social media now where they're

01:25:45.284 --> 01:25:45.674
Rupert Isaacson: Yeah.

01:25:45.764 --> 01:25:49.364
Troy Shaw: Almost like not well, I suppose
they are bullied through social media.

01:25:49.364 --> 01:25:53.054
They're, you know, put pressure on
through having this, having that and

01:25:53.054 --> 01:25:54.314
not having this, not having that.

01:25:54.764 --> 01:25:55.154
Rupert Isaacson: Mm-hmm.

01:25:55.424 --> 01:26:00.314
Troy Shaw: It's, it's so difficult
to know, you know, how they cope.

01:26:00.319 --> 01:26:00.639
No, I,

01:26:00.644 --> 01:26:01.454
Rupert Isaacson: I, I agree.

01:26:01.454 --> 01:26:04.034
And I think, I think what you're putting
your, I I'm just thinking, I was, I was

01:26:04.034 --> 01:26:09.044
in Michigan last week and I was with
the child of a dear friend of mine, and

01:26:10.604 --> 01:26:16.809
I've noticed in, in this generation, of
course, that's us, a couple of old blokes

01:26:16.809 --> 01:26:18.489
that go, well, when I was, I, yeah.

01:26:18.749 --> 01:26:19.289
My day.

01:26:19.559 --> 01:26:19.849
Yeah.

01:26:20.509 --> 01:26:23.414
You, you had it ea you got
it easy when I lived it up.

01:26:23.594 --> 01:26:24.944
Chew box at reservoir.

01:26:25.304 --> 01:26:30.554
But the, the truth is, I do think there
has been an erosion of resilience.

01:26:31.094 --> 01:26:38.684
And by trying to make things for good
intentions, you know, wrapped in bubble

01:26:38.684 --> 01:26:42.794
wrap while at the same time the world
just gets more and more savage out

01:26:42.794 --> 01:26:48.054
there in weird ways because social
media goes right to your brain, right?

01:26:48.084 --> 01:26:48.144
Yeah.

01:26:48.174 --> 01:26:51.624
It's not like it's just something
over there with a, a physical bully

01:26:51.684 --> 01:26:53.274
that maybe you can avoid or ignore.

01:26:53.634 --> 01:26:53.754
Yeah.

01:26:53.754 --> 01:26:56.664
It's gonna invade your life
in a really insidious way.

01:26:57.144 --> 01:27:00.654
And I do think that the current.

01:27:01.974 --> 01:27:08.124
Young adult generation is proportionally
less resilient than the generations

01:27:08.124 --> 01:27:09.144
that have gone before them.

01:27:09.774 --> 01:27:13.494
And your job, you know, particularly
with the silliness and the perspective

01:27:13.494 --> 01:27:21.114
that that brings, you know what you're
saying, I think is learn to be resilient.

01:27:21.834 --> 01:27:22.254
Right.

01:27:22.979 --> 01:27:25.674
That that is resilience
training in a weird way.

01:27:25.854 --> 01:27:26.064
Troy Shaw: Yeah.

01:27:26.064 --> 01:27:29.184
And also learn to laugh and, you know,
it is okay to laugh and it's okay to

01:27:29.184 --> 01:27:30.534
have fun and, you know, and smile.

01:27:30.534 --> 01:27:30.684
Right.

01:27:30.949 --> 01:27:31.029
'cause

01:27:31.029 --> 01:27:31.854
Rupert Isaacson: that
is resilience, right?

01:27:31.854 --> 01:27:31.914
Yeah.

01:27:31.914 --> 01:27:34.614
You can go through a shit
situation and laugh about it.

01:27:34.854 --> 01:27:35.184
Troy Shaw: Yeah.

01:27:35.544 --> 01:27:38.034
And, and you know, you go back to
the going out on trail rides, one of

01:27:38.034 --> 01:27:42.234
the things which we really get the
students to do is when a car goes

01:27:42.234 --> 01:27:46.014
past and they slow down, it's put
that big smile on your face and wave.

01:27:46.464 --> 01:27:46.854
Rupert Isaacson: Yeah.

01:27:46.974 --> 01:27:48.294
' Troy Shaw: cause then you've
got a different outlook

01:27:48.294 --> 01:27:49.164
on the world, haven't you?

01:27:49.169 --> 01:27:52.794
You know, once somebody smiles and
you know, it, it tells you a little

01:27:52.794 --> 01:27:56.394
bit more about them than it does when
they just give you that sort of like

01:27:56.394 --> 01:27:57.984
death dead everyone's got nowadays.

01:27:58.584 --> 01:27:58.914
Yes.

01:27:58.914 --> 01:27:59.034
You know?

01:27:59.034 --> 01:28:02.274
So smiling and waving and being grateful.

01:28:02.274 --> 01:28:04.614
Actually it teaches him so much.

01:28:04.974 --> 01:28:05.904
Just from gratitude.

01:28:05.904 --> 01:28:06.384
Hack out.

01:28:07.074 --> 01:28:07.554
Rupert Isaacson: Yeah.

01:28:08.064 --> 01:28:08.784
No, absolutely.

01:28:08.784 --> 01:28:09.354
Gratitude.

01:28:09.354 --> 01:28:09.924
Gratitude.

01:28:10.524 --> 01:28:11.214
And yeah.

01:28:11.214 --> 01:28:12.114
Kiss your horse.

01:28:12.414 --> 01:28:12.804
Troy Shaw: Yeah.

01:28:13.314 --> 01:28:14.004
Rupert Isaacson: Love your horse.

01:28:14.004 --> 01:28:15.114
Make much of your horse.

01:28:15.174 --> 01:28:15.414
Yeah.

01:28:15.414 --> 01:28:15.744
Troy Shaw: Yeah.

01:28:16.284 --> 01:28:17.154
Rupert Isaacson: Thank your horse.

01:28:17.514 --> 01:28:17.844
Troy Shaw: Yeah.

01:28:19.164 --> 01:28:19.374
Yeah.

01:28:19.374 --> 01:28:22.134
It's such a, it's like a
prime evil thing, isn't it?

01:28:22.134 --> 01:28:24.054
But we sort of lose it a little
bit because we get stuck in it.

01:28:24.054 --> 01:28:26.364
We are in a very technology
driven world, aren't we?

01:28:28.134 --> 01:28:29.754
Instinct has been taken away.

01:28:29.934 --> 01:28:29.994
Yeah.

01:28:30.744 --> 01:28:34.104
Or at least be, we're not allowed to
use instinct or act on instinct as much.

01:28:34.104 --> 01:28:38.244
Now we have to, we have to always
like, go through procedures and

01:28:38.244 --> 01:28:40.404
policies and all those, and then
by the time you've gone it, you've

01:28:40.404 --> 01:28:42.054
lost, you've lost the situation.

01:28:42.054 --> 01:28:42.954
You've lost in a moment.

01:28:43.794 --> 01:28:45.414
And if you don't act on it at the time

01:28:45.834 --> 01:28:46.284
Rupert Isaacson: Yeah.

01:28:46.404 --> 01:28:48.534
Troy Shaw: You sort of like, you know,
you've just missed out a little bit.

01:28:49.254 --> 01:28:49.644
Rupert Isaacson: I do.

01:28:49.699 --> 01:28:53.814
I, I hope you're right about it, coming
full circle, because I, I feel that

01:28:53.814 --> 01:28:57.354
there's a kind of a being a tyranny Yeah.

01:28:57.454 --> 01:29:05.584
In the last decade or so where it,
it is reached a point of Well, I

01:29:05.584 --> 01:29:08.644
think we're starting to see the
casualties of that in a younger

01:29:08.644 --> 01:29:10.774
generation that is not as resilient.

01:29:11.554 --> 01:29:11.614
Troy Shaw: Yeah.

01:29:11.614 --> 01:29:14.344
Rupert Isaacson: And like you say,
if you can't laugh, if you can't be

01:29:14.344 --> 01:29:17.014
grateful, if you can't, then again Yeah.

01:29:17.014 --> 01:29:20.884
You just don't have the
resilience bad situations.

01:29:20.884 --> 01:29:21.184
Yeah.

01:29:21.724 --> 01:29:24.064
Troy Shaw: And, and again, it
comes back down to that, that play,

01:29:24.904 --> 01:29:25.204
Rupert Isaacson: play and,

01:29:25.474 --> 01:29:27.634
Troy Shaw: and not just playing
with Lego, it's the physical

01:29:27.634 --> 01:29:29.434
movement play the imagination games.

01:29:29.434 --> 01:29:29.494
Yeah.

01:29:29.494 --> 01:29:32.374
The ones where they set their own
boundaries and rules and, you know,

01:29:32.374 --> 01:29:36.574
you'll go out and you'll get a group of
friends together and you'll, you use your

01:29:36.574 --> 01:29:40.684
imagination to create a will, which you
are immersed in for however long you're

01:29:40.684 --> 01:29:43.654
allowed out to play, you know, I think.

01:29:43.654 --> 01:29:43.894
Right.

01:29:43.894 --> 01:29:47.134
Rupert Isaacson: Rather than diving into a
computer game where it's all done for you.

01:29:47.224 --> 01:29:47.404
Troy Shaw: Yeah.

01:29:47.644 --> 01:29:48.589
Then you become a character and

01:29:48.589 --> 01:29:49.189
Rupert Isaacson: you
don't create anything.

01:29:49.189 --> 01:29:49.429
Yeah.

01:29:49.529 --> 01:29:49.749
No,

01:29:49.924 --> 01:29:53.734
Troy Shaw: and there's no, sounds
quite harsh, but in a computer game,

01:29:53.734 --> 01:29:55.114
there's no reality when you fall over.

01:29:56.149 --> 01:29:57.319
You don't learn anything from it.

01:29:57.319 --> 01:29:59.539
When you're out with your friends and
you fall over, you graze your knee

01:29:59.539 --> 01:30:01.939
and you've got like a battle scar and
you've got like a bit of a cut and

01:30:01.939 --> 01:30:05.929
it hurts and you remember then that
actions' do that, that's gonna hurt.

01:30:06.349 --> 01:30:06.589
Rupert Isaacson: Yeah.

01:30:06.679 --> 01:30:07.609
Troy Shaw: I won't do that next time.

01:30:08.149 --> 01:30:08.569
Rupert Isaacson: Yeah.

01:30:08.779 --> 01:30:11.569
And you build, or what is
a more skillful way Yeah.

01:30:11.569 --> 01:30:13.609
To jump over that thing or whatever.

01:30:13.639 --> 01:30:14.059
Yeah.

01:30:14.359 --> 01:30:16.609
Troy Shaw: So you build resilience
and you then you'll start to build

01:30:16.789 --> 01:30:19.279
more ability to change things.

01:30:19.579 --> 01:30:20.509
Rupert Isaacson: Yes, yes.

01:30:20.509 --> 01:30:20.854
Skills and

01:30:20.854 --> 01:30:21.529
Troy Shaw: learn and stuff.

01:30:21.529 --> 01:30:26.839
And, and it's, you know, it's, it's not
rocket science, but it feels like it

01:30:26.839 --> 01:30:29.509
is sometimes that it's been moved away.

01:30:29.779 --> 01:30:30.829
Rupert Isaacson: Well, it used to be.

01:30:30.829 --> 01:30:33.319
It used to be, I think that
imagination was built in

01:30:33.619 --> 01:30:33.889
Troy Shaw: Yeah.

01:30:33.949 --> 01:30:38.779
Rupert Isaacson: Because most of
us did not have access, immediate

01:30:38.779 --> 01:30:41.059
access to the stuff we wanted.

01:30:41.064 --> 01:30:41.569
Right, right.

01:30:41.569 --> 01:30:43.099
So we had to imagine it.

01:30:43.339 --> 01:30:43.489
Troy Shaw: Yeah.

01:30:43.819 --> 01:30:47.779
Rupert Isaacson: And maybe if we
imagined it enough, we might eventually

01:30:47.779 --> 01:30:52.369
manifest it, but that wouldn't prevent
us from having fun along the way.

01:30:52.669 --> 01:30:52.879
Troy Shaw: Yeah.

01:30:53.089 --> 01:30:55.459
Rupert Isaacson: It's interesting,
I'm thinking back to a, a, a little

01:30:55.459 --> 01:31:00.909
girl that who was from South Korea
that used to come to us in Germany,

01:31:00.909 --> 01:31:05.769
she would, you know, her parents were
expats and she was in love with horses.

01:31:05.769 --> 01:31:08.789
So she would come and
ride with us and she was.

01:31:09.284 --> 01:31:10.964
Having to move back to, to Korea.

01:31:11.474 --> 01:31:16.754
And she knew she was gonna go back
to the city and the horses were

01:31:16.754 --> 01:31:18.014
not gonna be really available.

01:31:18.014 --> 01:31:19.574
And she was grief stricken about this.

01:31:19.754 --> 01:31:20.714
She was only eight years old.

01:31:20.714 --> 01:31:21.614
And I was think, how do I help her?

01:31:21.614 --> 01:31:22.109
What do I do?

01:31:22.214 --> 01:31:25.454
You know, this is, this is hurting.

01:31:25.754 --> 01:31:27.074
I can see how much is this hurting her?

01:31:27.884 --> 01:31:31.124
And so we went through these exercises
when we were, I would just take a

01:31:31.124 --> 01:31:37.274
trail riding in the forest and we would
do imagination exercises where like,

01:31:37.304 --> 01:31:43.424
okay, you are in your room, in your
apartment in Seoul, and I want you

01:31:43.454 --> 01:31:47.534
to be able to project yourself from
that to this trail riding this forest.

01:31:47.744 --> 01:31:50.234
So what are all the, what's going on?

01:31:50.234 --> 01:31:51.284
Like what are the smells?

01:31:51.494 --> 01:31:51.794
Troy Shaw: Yeah,

01:31:52.034 --> 01:31:53.474
Rupert Isaacson: what
are the different greens?

01:31:53.684 --> 01:31:57.824
What are the rhythm of the footfall
of the horse underneath you?

01:31:57.824 --> 01:32:02.594
Like when you touch the horse, is the coat
a bit dusty or is the coat quite slip?

01:32:02.624 --> 01:32:04.694
'cause the time of year, is there mud?

01:32:04.994 --> 01:32:06.974
You know, what birds are there?

01:32:07.364 --> 01:32:09.074
What, what noises are there?

01:32:09.414 --> 01:32:14.454
And it, it really made me focus on this
and try to think about this because

01:32:14.454 --> 01:32:19.614
I knew she was gonna go back to a
situation where resilience would be

01:32:20.244 --> 01:32:25.794
required and suffering would be intense.

01:32:26.004 --> 01:32:26.274
Troy Shaw: Yeah.

01:32:26.994 --> 01:32:28.194
Rupert Isaacson: How can I.

01:32:29.064 --> 01:32:32.604
Project into the future, something
with this horse experience now.

01:32:32.754 --> 01:32:35.304
And I think what you're doing with
all that play and all that dress

01:32:35.304 --> 01:32:37.254
up and the key is imagination.

01:32:37.464 --> 01:32:41.184
What you're saying is you can
imagine a different reality.

01:32:41.394 --> 01:32:43.374
You can imagine your own reality.

01:32:43.794 --> 01:32:43.974
Troy Shaw: Yeah.

01:32:44.124 --> 01:32:46.224
Rupert Isaacson: What reality
do you want to imagine?

01:32:46.644 --> 01:32:46.944
Yeah.

01:32:47.604 --> 01:32:47.754
Troy Shaw: Yeah.

01:32:48.919 --> 01:32:51.894
And it is a, a case of just going
with the flow a little bit as well

01:32:51.894 --> 01:32:53.214
and just seeing where it takes you.

01:32:53.304 --> 01:32:53.694
Rupert Isaacson: Mm-hmm.

01:32:53.874 --> 01:32:57.634
Troy Shaw: And not being as the person
who's sort of leading the the session.

01:32:57.634 --> 01:33:00.544
It is not being fearful, I suppose.

01:33:00.964 --> 01:33:04.384
And just sort of going with it and
just letting it grow and not being,

01:33:04.414 --> 01:33:07.174
if it changes, it changes and you
just go in a different direction.

01:33:08.644 --> 01:33:08.824
Rupert Isaacson: Yeah.

01:33:08.824 --> 01:33:10.414
Not being attached to any one outcome.

01:33:10.474 --> 01:33:10.744
Troy Shaw: Yeah.

01:33:10.744 --> 01:33:12.094
And using what you've got.

01:33:12.214 --> 01:33:14.834
'cause you still might have, you still
might have a like most things, you've

01:33:14.834 --> 01:33:18.494
got a, today you must learn your 10
times table or something like that.

01:33:19.154 --> 01:33:21.854
But no one can prescribe
how you get there.

01:33:23.594 --> 01:33:25.274
And you've gotta use what's
in front of you at the time.

01:33:25.274 --> 01:33:29.524
So whatever you're presented with on
that student or a child on that day,

01:33:29.974 --> 01:33:31.114
that's what you've got to work with.

01:33:31.414 --> 01:33:31.834
Rupert Isaacson: Yeah.

01:33:31.954 --> 01:33:33.304
Troy Shaw: And that might
mean you have to dress up.

01:33:33.304 --> 01:33:34.864
That might mean you
have to be really silly.

01:33:35.374 --> 01:33:35.734
Rupert Isaacson: Yeah.

01:33:35.824 --> 01:33:37.984
Troy Shaw: Or it might mean you've gotta
be really quiet and just sit down and,

01:33:38.134 --> 01:33:39.784
you know, just sit in a safe space.

01:33:40.204 --> 01:33:41.434
Rupert Isaacson: Yeah, exactly.

01:33:41.439 --> 01:33:45.274
Troy Shaw: So it is not, but you've
got, you've got, you can't force it.

01:33:45.779 --> 01:33:48.364
Rupert Isaacson: I, I, I think when
you say you have, sometimes you have to

01:33:48.364 --> 01:33:49.744
sit down and be quiet in a safe space.

01:33:49.744 --> 01:33:56.044
It, it, it's, it's also true, like I
found myself in situations sometimes with.

01:33:57.499 --> 01:34:03.769
A student that who wants to do something
that I don't much care for, like really,

01:34:03.769 --> 01:34:05.074
really talk about Minecraft, you know?

01:34:05.074 --> 01:34:05.314
Yeah.

01:34:05.514 --> 01:34:09.319
And I've, I've got to, I've got to,
you know, be able to fake enough

01:34:09.319 --> 01:34:12.439
of an interest in Minecraft and
create games around Minecraft, even

01:34:12.439 --> 01:34:13.759
though that's a real stretch for me.

01:34:13.999 --> 01:34:14.149
Yeah.

01:34:14.479 --> 01:34:18.909
Or maybe there's even personality
clashes between you and the student,

01:34:18.999 --> 01:34:20.349
but that's not the student's problem.

01:34:20.949 --> 01:34:24.579
And so, it's funny, I find one
can use imagination in that way.

01:34:24.789 --> 01:34:31.179
An environment like, I, I, I, I had this,
this student a couple of years ago and

01:34:31.299 --> 01:34:35.859
it, you know, it's no fault of theirs, but
I would be almost dreading the session.

01:34:36.219 --> 01:34:36.489
Troy Shaw: Yeah.

01:34:36.729 --> 01:34:39.399
Rupert Isaacson: And I'm like,
but that's not their problem.

01:34:39.399 --> 01:34:40.569
I, I still need to serve them.

01:34:40.719 --> 01:34:43.119
How do I make sure that
I'm in my best place?

01:34:43.479 --> 01:34:45.609
So I, I thought, okay, I'm
gonna select my environment.

01:34:45.849 --> 01:34:50.859
There's a, a, a, a a stream
down below the stables.

01:34:50.859 --> 01:34:51.849
I love being there.

01:34:52.629 --> 01:34:52.839
Troy Shaw: Yeah.

01:34:53.019 --> 01:34:54.429
Rupert Isaacson: Let's go there.

01:34:54.819 --> 01:34:57.969
And I bet you this person's
gonna get really into it as well.

01:34:58.149 --> 01:35:02.919
And at least I'll be able to enjoy
that and daydream there a little bit.

01:35:03.219 --> 01:35:03.429
Troy Shaw: Yeah.

01:35:03.729 --> 01:35:04.839
Rupert Isaacson: And then maybe together.

01:35:04.839 --> 01:35:06.429
We'll, you know,

01:35:07.719 --> 01:35:09.549
Troy Shaw: that goes back to that
human environment again, doesn't it?

01:35:09.554 --> 01:35:10.054
So it does.

01:35:10.194 --> 01:35:16.149
If you are human, how you are feeling,
or at least how you help yourself feel

01:35:16.149 --> 01:35:19.479
in the right way is manageable, then
you can get so much more out of it.

01:35:19.869 --> 01:35:20.589
Rupert Isaacson: Yes, it is.

01:35:21.884 --> 01:35:22.209
Troy Shaw: Yes, it is.

01:35:22.304 --> 01:35:24.279
Rupert Isaacson: And and, and it
allows you to access your empathy.

01:35:24.699 --> 01:35:25.029
Troy Shaw: Yeah.

01:35:25.449 --> 01:35:30.099
I'm thinking about, we, we used to
have a student a few years ago who had

01:35:30.099 --> 01:35:34.459
been everywhere across the country,
you know, in different places where

01:35:35.904 --> 01:35:39.419
he, he profoundly deaf, couldn't
hear anything, had a, had her own

01:35:39.419 --> 01:35:42.659
interpreter all the time, even when it
came to us, had to have an interpreter.

01:35:43.409 --> 01:35:48.569
But he'd been across the country
and, and it turns out that the only

01:35:48.569 --> 01:35:51.599
reason he was acting how he was, is
because nobody had listened to him.

01:35:52.499 --> 01:35:52.679
Right.

01:35:52.769 --> 01:35:55.439
'cause his his way of communicating,
he obviously couldn't talk

01:35:55.439 --> 01:35:56.549
because he couldn't hear himself.

01:35:56.909 --> 01:35:57.119
Rupert Isaacson: Yeah.

01:35:57.209 --> 01:36:01.619
Troy Shaw: That he was conscious about
his, his predicament and stuff like that.

01:36:01.619 --> 01:36:01.709
Right.

01:36:01.799 --> 01:36:03.989
And, but at the same time,
he wanted people to listen.

01:36:04.409 --> 01:36:04.499
Mm-hmm.

01:36:04.499 --> 01:36:05.369
But nobody would listen.

01:36:05.369 --> 01:36:09.569
They'd just, you know, basically shuffling
around here, there and everywhere.

01:36:10.079 --> 01:36:13.519
And he came to us and he was probably one
of my the best students I've worked with.

01:36:14.599 --> 01:36:15.619
Really, really challenging.

01:36:15.739 --> 01:36:16.729
'cause he had to have an interpreter.

01:36:17.119 --> 01:36:19.849
But we use the interpreter for
our own advantage to create fun.

01:36:20.569 --> 01:36:21.019
Rupert Isaacson: Okay.

01:36:21.139 --> 01:36:23.959
Troy Shaw: So, for example, when we
used to have, 'cause you have to have

01:36:23.959 --> 01:36:27.289
regular catchups with the authorities
and the, the, the, you know, the,

01:36:28.039 --> 01:36:30.849
the people that are the experts.

01:36:31.449 --> 01:36:33.579
And he taught me swear
words in sign language.

01:36:34.029 --> 01:36:34.509
Rupert Isaacson: Brilliant.

01:36:34.569 --> 01:36:37.779
Troy Shaw: So we'd both sit there in
these meetings and we'd be doing these

01:36:38.444 --> 01:36:43.014
really, really naughty sign languages to
each other, just to make, because he, he,

01:36:43.034 --> 01:36:46.414
he, he found these meetings really hard
work because he f he knows all about him.

01:36:46.929 --> 01:36:47.739
He didn't know what to say.

01:36:47.739 --> 01:36:48.939
He knew no one was listening.

01:36:49.359 --> 01:36:49.659
Rupert Isaacson: Yeah.

01:36:49.659 --> 01:36:51.249
Troy Shaw: We'd sit there and
we'd sort of team up so the

01:36:51.249 --> 01:36:52.359
meeting would go really quick.

01:36:53.079 --> 01:36:55.389
And I think I've share this one story.

01:36:55.389 --> 01:36:58.379
We because he had an
interpreter, we drummed up the

01:36:58.379 --> 01:37:00.629
idea of going to Rotten Water

01:37:01.379 --> 01:37:01.859
Rupert Isaacson: Okay.

01:37:02.189 --> 01:37:04.949
And doing rotten water being a big
lake in your area, big Lake Lester

01:37:04.949 --> 01:37:07.309
Troy Shaw: year, which then it is
it got a lot of outdoor pursuits.

01:37:07.309 --> 01:37:08.449
Pursuits and stuff like that.

01:37:08.839 --> 01:37:11.789
And we decided to go standup kayaking.

01:37:12.419 --> 01:37:12.899
Rupert Isaacson: Okay.

01:37:13.139 --> 01:37:15.899
Troy Shaw: Which it was, I still
picturing now there's the three of

01:37:15.899 --> 01:37:17.639
us on each, on individual boards.

01:37:17.639 --> 01:37:20.639
And we'd got this, he, we
got stay, he's a big guy.

01:37:20.729 --> 01:37:23.159
We got him to stand up on the board
and you know, it was really funny.

01:37:23.159 --> 01:37:23.939
Will falling in.

01:37:24.659 --> 01:37:27.869
But of course the poor interpreters have
gotta stand on the board and try and

01:37:27.869 --> 01:37:29.519
interpret while we are having this laugh.

01:37:29.759 --> 01:37:30.214
Oh, that's brilliant.

01:37:30.434 --> 01:37:31.619
It was just hilarious.

01:37:31.649 --> 01:37:36.269
'cause he was just, he was, I know
uncontrollable laughter because he knew

01:37:36.269 --> 01:37:38.879
what was going on and, you know, and
he was at his comfort zone 'cause he

01:37:38.879 --> 01:37:41.579
didn't like water, but he was in the
middle of getting the water on a board.

01:37:42.119 --> 01:37:44.729
And it was just, it was
just so, so brilliant.

01:37:45.539 --> 01:37:49.649
And he changed so much and
grew confident and, you know.

01:37:51.074 --> 01:37:53.894
Rupert Isaacson: I love the
fact too that you will do things

01:37:53.894 --> 01:37:55.664
that are outside of the equine.

01:37:56.234 --> 01:37:59.504
You know, this is one of the hardest
things I, I find in trainings that I do

01:37:59.984 --> 01:38:06.074
is to say, look, in our job, you've got to
be obsessive about your horse training and

01:38:06.074 --> 01:38:09.284
preparation and willing to abandon that

01:38:09.434 --> 01:38:09.644
Troy Shaw: Yeah.

01:38:09.764 --> 01:38:12.134
Rupert Isaacson: In like 10 seconds
if that's not where the person's

01:38:12.134 --> 01:38:13.814
at and go do something else.

01:38:14.124 --> 01:38:16.524
And of course, horse people
are so horse focused and narrow

01:38:16.524 --> 01:38:20.274
minded that way often that they
can't think outside of the horse.

01:38:21.084 --> 01:38:24.024
And you know, earlier in this conversation
when you were saying, you know, Lorraine

01:38:24.024 --> 01:38:26.909
was coming back in those early days
saying, oh, I've been building these,

01:38:27.144 --> 01:38:29.604
you know, goat houses out of bricks.

01:38:29.904 --> 01:38:30.354
You know.

01:38:30.354 --> 01:38:30.364
Yeah.

01:38:31.794 --> 01:38:34.644
Some person, someone might say, well
that's not equine assisted work.

01:38:35.004 --> 01:38:38.634
You know, but it's nature in the mind.

01:38:38.904 --> 01:38:39.354
Troy Shaw: Yeah.

01:38:39.354 --> 01:38:43.884
Rupert Isaacson: And equine stuff is
only one aspect of nature in the mind.

01:38:43.884 --> 01:38:44.184
Right.

01:38:45.659 --> 01:38:51.494
How do you, when you are training
up your teams get them, because

01:38:51.494 --> 01:38:53.204
most of 'em are probably coming
'cause they're pretty horsey.

01:38:53.724 --> 01:38:54.354
How do, yeah.

01:38:54.354 --> 01:38:56.724
How do you get them to think
with that type of flexibility

01:38:56.994 --> 01:38:58.044
to think beyond the horse?

01:38:58.734 --> 01:39:00.564
Troy Shaw: It's quite interesting
that, 'cause a lot of our people

01:39:00.564 --> 01:39:01.794
that come aren't horsey at all.

01:39:02.154 --> 01:39:02.724
Rupert Isaacson: Okay.

01:39:02.844 --> 01:39:05.064
Troy Shaw: We're actually at the
moment struggling to get horsey people.

01:39:05.064 --> 01:39:05.454
Oh, is it more the

01:39:05.454 --> 01:39:06.054
Rupert Isaacson: other way around?

01:39:06.054 --> 01:39:07.284
Troy Shaw: It's, it's a bit of both.

01:39:07.284 --> 01:39:09.684
So we went through and
it, and it, it is right.

01:39:09.684 --> 01:39:12.264
We get, when you get the horsey people
come in, they're very much, right.

01:39:12.264 --> 01:39:14.964
I've done dressage and this is the
way you do it and you know, let's get

01:39:14.964 --> 01:39:17.669
the horses winched in and you know,
they've gotta be an outline and it,

01:39:17.809 --> 01:39:20.694
and that they, they tend to be one
of the hardest people to work with.

01:39:21.084 --> 01:39:21.414
Rupert Isaacson: Yeah.

01:39:21.504 --> 01:39:23.724
' Troy Shaw: cause they are very
structured in their approach and they,

01:39:23.724 --> 01:39:28.044
they tend to be less open to being
silly and, and that kind of thing.

01:39:28.584 --> 01:39:33.504
So I'd say probably 60% of
our staff aren't horsy at all.

01:39:33.714 --> 01:39:34.104
Rupert Isaacson: Okay.

01:39:34.774 --> 01:39:37.684
Troy Shaw: But they get the concept
of the importance of movement

01:39:38.374 --> 01:39:39.514
and the importance of play.

01:39:40.024 --> 01:39:42.544
And when we do, we have to
do regular training because

01:39:42.814 --> 01:39:43.714
that's what you have to do.

01:39:44.104 --> 01:39:44.434
Yeah.

01:39:44.494 --> 01:39:46.564
But the training has to, but
we don't just do training for

01:39:46.564 --> 01:39:47.404
the sake of doing training.

01:39:47.404 --> 01:39:49.834
We'll do training because
it actually adds value.

01:39:50.614 --> 01:39:54.324
So we recently did, we went
back through the the science

01:39:54.324 --> 01:39:55.374
behind the horse boy method.

01:39:57.444 --> 01:40:00.624
Rupert Isaacson: So you just scratching
my, that little ghost in the background

01:40:00.624 --> 01:40:02.034
is, is my youngest son courier.

01:40:02.389 --> 01:40:02.739
Hello?

01:40:02.739 --> 01:40:02.749
Hello.

01:40:04.794 --> 01:40:05.094
Sorry.

01:40:05.094 --> 01:40:06.774
So the science behind
the horse boy method.

01:40:06.774 --> 01:40:07.134
Go on.

01:40:07.284 --> 01:40:07.554
Troy Shaw: Yeah.

01:40:07.554 --> 01:40:11.204
So we, we, we drew out the horse,
the model, you know, for the, the

01:40:11.824 --> 01:40:12.844
sous and all that sort of stuff.

01:40:12.844 --> 01:40:13.054
And

01:40:13.059 --> 01:40:13.289
Rupert Isaacson: Yeah.

01:40:13.654 --> 01:40:16.834
Troy Shaw: And we, we
got people to act it out.

01:40:17.614 --> 01:40:20.494
So everybody had a part, someone
was a neuro in, they were firing

01:40:20.494 --> 01:40:23.824
up to the head and by the end of
it they were just like in stitches.

01:40:24.184 --> 01:40:24.424
Rupert Isaacson: Yeah.

01:40:24.424 --> 01:40:27.334
Troy Shaw: Then we used that point there
to then go away and they had to create

01:40:27.334 --> 01:40:31.444
an activity to deliver to students to,
and like I gave them all an envelope.

01:40:31.564 --> 01:40:33.394
Here's an envelope, you've gotta
do this, you've gotta do that.

01:40:34.114 --> 01:40:36.694
But you had to use only the stuff
that's in the men to do that.

01:40:37.024 --> 01:40:37.354
Rupert Isaacson: Yeah.

01:40:37.509 --> 01:40:38.854
Troy Shaw: So you had to
be really creative with it.

01:40:38.854 --> 01:40:42.814
So we try and do the training to make
it as creative as possible unless,

01:40:43.444 --> 01:40:46.449
you know, sat down talking to Right.

01:40:46.449 --> 01:40:48.844
Rupert Isaacson: So that people
can make that jump in the moment.

01:40:49.054 --> 01:40:49.324
Troy Shaw: Yeah.

01:40:49.714 --> 01:40:52.474
Rupert Isaacson: Of Oh, I see the
ki I thought we were gonna do this,

01:40:52.624 --> 01:40:54.074
but actually we have to do this.

01:40:54.364 --> 01:40:54.929
Troy Shaw: Yeah, yeah, yeah.

01:40:55.144 --> 01:40:56.824
Or I'm gonna use this
to do the same thing.

01:40:56.824 --> 01:41:01.654
So, you know, I might be doing, go
back to my maths, you might use some

01:41:01.654 --> 01:41:05.584
sticks you found in the woods to work
out percentages or something like that.

01:41:05.644 --> 01:41:06.364
So Yes, yes.

01:41:06.574 --> 01:41:07.654
It's just thinking on the feet.

01:41:07.954 --> 01:41:11.134
But at the same time as while
they're doing it, they've gotta

01:41:11.134 --> 01:41:11.974
be immersed in themselves.

01:41:11.974 --> 01:41:14.324
They've gotta almost like
see that kind of end goal.

01:41:14.804 --> 01:41:15.134
Mm-hmm.

01:41:15.254 --> 01:41:16.634
But have so much fun getting there.

01:41:16.874 --> 01:41:17.144
Rupert Isaacson: Mm-hmm.

01:41:17.264 --> 01:41:18.404
Troy Shaw: That they forget
they're doing it as well.

01:41:18.404 --> 01:41:21.974
So if you can get your staff or
your team to do their sessions and

01:41:21.974 --> 01:41:24.074
they've had such a good day that
they've forgotten they've done it.

01:41:24.614 --> 01:41:24.944
Rupert Isaacson: Yeah.

01:41:25.184 --> 01:41:27.644
Troy Shaw: Because it's been
so, you know, if you look at

01:41:27.644 --> 01:41:30.014
your watch going, oh bloody, oh,
I've got another hour left now.

01:41:30.284 --> 01:41:31.184
Oh, I still another hour.

01:41:31.754 --> 01:41:32.774
That's never gonna work.

01:41:32.924 --> 01:41:33.224
Rupert Isaacson: No,

01:41:33.644 --> 01:41:34.454
Troy Shaw: it's almost the opposite.

01:41:34.454 --> 01:41:35.594
Oh, I've only got an hour left now.

01:41:35.624 --> 01:41:36.734
Oh crap, I gonna get this done.

01:41:36.999 --> 01:41:37.289
Rupert Isaacson: Yeah.

01:41:37.364 --> 01:41:37.634
So,

01:41:37.934 --> 01:41:40.904
Troy Shaw: and that's what we try
and get the whole team doing and

01:41:41.024 --> 01:41:42.494
our team are really, really good at.

01:41:43.664 --> 01:41:45.284
Rupert Isaacson: Well, you've
made a massive success of it.

01:41:45.284 --> 01:41:48.284
You've got now two locations
and a third one coming up.

01:41:48.404 --> 01:41:48.674
Troy Shaw: Yeah.

01:41:48.914 --> 01:41:51.644
Rupert Isaacson: Tell us a bit, because
we, we we're sort of approaching the,

01:41:51.734 --> 01:41:55.604
the two hour mark and we should probably
wrap up and people I think will want

01:41:55.604 --> 01:41:57.344
to know whether can check you out and

01:41:57.479 --> 01:41:57.769
Troy Shaw: Yeah.

01:41:57.789 --> 01:41:58.009
And,

01:41:58.254 --> 01:41:59.364
Rupert Isaacson: How they check you out.

01:41:59.664 --> 01:42:03.594
Can you just talk us through what your
locations are, what they do, and then

01:42:03.594 --> 01:42:05.334
also tell us how do people find you?

01:42:05.514 --> 01:42:06.684
How do people contact you?

01:42:06.864 --> 01:42:10.854
Whether it's as a client, if they're
in the east of England or whether they

01:42:10.854 --> 01:42:12.444
want to actually come work for you.

01:42:13.074 --> 01:42:13.134
Yeah.

01:42:13.194 --> 01:42:15.474
Because Troy's always hiring guys.

01:42:15.834 --> 01:42:16.314
Yeah.

01:42:16.404 --> 01:42:17.394
Give us the logistics.

01:42:17.664 --> 01:42:20.394
Troy Shaw: So we're, we're based in
Leicestershire in a small village called

01:42:20.394 --> 01:42:23.094
Goby Marwood that's never heard of.

01:42:23.544 --> 01:42:27.474
People tend to drive past it 'cause they
say there's no one road in, one road out.

01:42:28.074 --> 01:42:33.114
We have the normal Facebook
page, so new triangle dot co uk.

01:42:33.764 --> 01:42:38.054
All the contact details were on
there, so if anyone wants to get in

01:42:38.054 --> 01:42:39.464
contact, they can send us an email.

01:42:39.464 --> 01:42:42.194
They can give us a phone if,

01:42:42.734 --> 01:42:43.244
Rupert Isaacson: right.

01:42:43.394 --> 01:42:44.324
New Leaf trying.

01:42:44.324 --> 01:42:48.314
So New leaf NewLeaf triangle.co

01:42:48.314 --> 01:42:48.704
uk.

01:42:49.004 --> 01:42:50.504
Co uk not.org

01:42:50.714 --> 01:42:52.124
because you're not a charity, right?

01:42:52.214 --> 01:42:52.394
Troy Shaw: No.

01:42:52.394 --> 01:42:54.804
Dot org is our email
address, not our Okay.

01:42:56.124 --> 01:42:56.514
Rupert Isaacson: Yeah, we're not

01:42:56.569 --> 01:42:56.849
Troy Shaw: a charity.

01:42:57.474 --> 01:42:59.574
Rupert Isaacson: And quickly, why
did you decide not to be a charity?

01:42:59.574 --> 01:43:01.344
Why did you decide to
be a regular business?

01:43:01.719 --> 01:43:03.519
Troy Shaw: So the, the, the
challenge of being a charity

01:43:03.519 --> 01:43:04.769
is you have to have a board.

01:43:05.189 --> 01:43:05.519
Rupert Isaacson: Yeah.

01:43:05.759 --> 01:43:08.579
Troy Shaw: That then the board at any
stage could say, well actually I'm

01:43:08.579 --> 01:43:09.989
not happy with the way this is going.

01:43:10.259 --> 01:43:10.619
Rupert Isaacson: Right.

01:43:10.709 --> 01:43:12.989
Troy Shaw: And they could say, kick
you off, we're gonna kick us off.

01:43:13.379 --> 01:43:13.559
Yeah.

01:43:13.559 --> 01:43:15.539
Which be quite embarrassing
when we started it.

01:43:15.539 --> 01:43:17.369
So, you know, I mean, well I've

01:43:17.369 --> 01:43:18.719
Rupert Isaacson: known it's
happened to a few friends of mine.

01:43:18.719 --> 01:43:19.499
Yeah.

01:43:19.499 --> 01:43:21.419
You get these palace cos
that happened in charity.

01:43:21.419 --> 01:43:24.059
Troy Shaw: No, we just don't want to go
down, didn't wanna go down that avenue.

01:43:24.059 --> 01:43:25.489
So we didn't start that way.

01:43:25.969 --> 01:43:26.359
Rupert Isaacson: Right.

01:43:26.539 --> 01:43:28.669
But when you were fundraising
initially, was that not then

01:43:28.669 --> 01:43:29.989
difficult if you went to charity?

01:43:30.169 --> 01:43:32.749
Troy Shaw: When we first, when we
did, we initially started here at CIC.

01:43:33.079 --> 01:43:33.469
Rupert Isaacson: Okay.

01:43:33.619 --> 01:43:36.079
Troy Shaw: So that gave us a bit of
a, an ability to do some fundraising.

01:43:36.079 --> 01:43:36.229
Just

01:43:36.379 --> 01:43:37.819
Rupert Isaacson: again, not
everyone's at British here.

01:43:37.819 --> 01:43:38.689
So what's the

01:43:38.689 --> 01:43:41.659
Troy Shaw: C-I-C-C-I-C is a, basically
a community interest company, which

01:43:41.659 --> 01:43:45.619
is designed to benefit everybody
in the local area or people in

01:43:45.619 --> 01:43:47.029
the local area to where you are.

01:43:47.509 --> 01:43:49.699
Rupert Isaacson: So it's, it's a
for profit, but you can raise money.

01:43:50.239 --> 01:43:50.479
Yeah.

01:43:50.869 --> 01:43:51.049
Okay.

01:43:51.139 --> 01:43:51.469
It's not

01:43:51.469 --> 01:43:51.769
Troy Shaw: profit.

01:43:51.769 --> 01:43:52.009
We do.

01:43:52.014 --> 01:43:54.559
You've, you've obviously raised
enough money to pay your wages and

01:43:54.589 --> 01:43:58.879
to operate, but it does mean you
could potentially go out and do

01:43:58.879 --> 01:44:00.584
some fundraising and get some Right.

01:44:00.584 --> 01:44:00.674
So it's

01:44:00.674 --> 01:44:03.649
Rupert Isaacson: almost like a hybrid
between regular company and charity.

01:44:05.209 --> 01:44:05.629
Okay.

01:44:05.789 --> 01:44:07.529
And then talk us about the
locations that you've got.

01:44:07.529 --> 01:44:10.289
I know you're in Goby, Marwood, the
Village that No, no one's ever heard of.

01:44:10.529 --> 01:44:10.649
Yeah.

01:44:10.649 --> 01:44:13.049
But why do you have three locations?

01:44:13.079 --> 01:44:14.429
What do these three locations do?

01:44:14.849 --> 01:44:18.689
Troy Shaw: So our main site,
which is our smallest site, is

01:44:18.739 --> 01:44:19.909
only about two and a half acres.

01:44:19.999 --> 01:44:23.359
And it's got a menage in there stables.

01:44:24.529 --> 01:44:25.969
We have access to the woods behind.

01:44:26.149 --> 01:44:28.099
So it gives us quite a big environment.

01:44:28.579 --> 01:44:32.329
And we also, we've just actually just
built a whole new classroom set there.

01:44:33.139 --> 01:44:33.259
Rupert Isaacson: Okay.

01:44:33.259 --> 01:44:35.449
Troy Shaw: The old buildings, were
starting to look a little bit run down.

01:44:35.839 --> 01:44:38.029
We self-funded as well.

01:44:38.059 --> 01:44:42.059
We built this massive three room
classroom with an office on the end as

01:44:42.059 --> 01:44:45.509
well, to give our operations manager
a quiet space to go and work in.

01:44:45.824 --> 01:44:46.114
Okay.

01:44:46.119 --> 01:44:51.969
And we, on that site, we have pigs,
goats, Guinea pigs, rabbits chickens,

01:44:52.929 --> 01:44:54.309
or that it's like a little farm yard.

01:44:54.309 --> 01:44:54.609
Really?

01:44:54.609 --> 01:44:54.639
Okay.

01:44:55.599 --> 01:44:57.099
And that's our pri primary site,

01:44:57.519 --> 01:44:58.989
Rupert Isaacson: but also
the horses there as well.

01:44:59.079 --> 01:44:59.864
Troy Shaw: Some horses there.

01:44:59.934 --> 01:45:00.224
Rupert Isaacson: Okay.

01:45:00.294 --> 01:45:00.584
Most

01:45:00.584 --> 01:45:03.159
Troy Shaw: horses there tend to be used
more for the pleasure side of things,

01:45:03.159 --> 01:45:05.949
and for the experience for the, you
know, we might go and paint them or we

01:45:05.949 --> 01:45:07.539
might bring them out and just groom them.

01:45:08.139 --> 01:45:09.249
Some people might ride them.

01:45:09.849 --> 01:45:13.689
Then there's site two, which
is about five minutes walk down

01:45:13.689 --> 01:45:15.879
the road two minutes in a car.

01:45:16.569 --> 01:45:22.869
And that's predominantly our horse side,
so that's where we have more acreage.

01:45:23.539 --> 01:45:27.619
The menage is used more for traditional
riding lessons to get people through

01:45:27.619 --> 01:45:31.639
their, either sitting in guilds
course or a open awards course.

01:45:32.119 --> 01:45:34.939
So it's much more structured
in the way the outcomes are.

01:45:35.989 --> 01:45:39.949
So the students will go there, they,
they tend to be a little bit older and

01:45:39.949 --> 01:45:42.709
they tend to be looking towards getting
some kind of vocational qualifications.

01:45:42.949 --> 01:45:42.979
Okay.

01:45:42.979 --> 01:45:44.929
So they don't, don't leave
education with nothing.

01:45:47.239 --> 01:45:48.379
Rupert Isaacson: And
then your third location?

01:45:48.379 --> 01:45:48.949
My third

01:45:48.949 --> 01:45:52.269
Troy Shaw: site is over, it's about 10
miles away from where we are now, and

01:45:52.269 --> 01:45:54.759
that's where we have the most space.

01:45:54.759 --> 01:45:55.989
We've got about 50 acres there.

01:45:56.589 --> 01:45:56.829
Okay.

01:45:56.829 --> 01:46:01.149
It's all hill and we, our, our sort
of ambition there is to make it

01:46:01.149 --> 01:46:02.559
more of a conservation kind of area.

01:46:02.559 --> 01:46:04.634
So we've got, we've planted a wood

01:46:05.174 --> 01:46:06.194
Rupert Isaacson: to rewild it a bit.

01:46:06.224 --> 01:46:06.514
Troy Shaw: Yeah.

01:46:06.554 --> 01:46:10.029
A couple of years ago we
planted a wood, which when woods

01:46:10.029 --> 01:46:10.989
never grow quickly, do they?

01:46:10.989 --> 01:46:12.309
It's like, no, please grow.

01:46:12.849 --> 01:46:13.839
It's not growing quick enough.

01:46:14.319 --> 01:46:19.209
And so we want to try and introduce
lots of different species and

01:46:19.209 --> 01:46:20.169
that kind of thing over there.

01:46:20.469 --> 01:46:23.019
But it's taken, it's taken
a long time to get it done.

01:46:23.079 --> 01:46:26.229
We've put a, a small barn there for
the horses to go in, in the winter.

01:46:26.829 --> 01:46:26.919
Right.

01:46:26.919 --> 01:46:29.769
And all of our old retirees go over
there and live their lives out there.

01:46:30.579 --> 01:46:30.969
Rupert Isaacson: Okay.

01:46:30.969 --> 01:46:34.359
So, and then so you would, you would
serve different types of clients at

01:46:34.364 --> 01:46:36.489
di at these three different locations?

01:46:36.489 --> 01:46:36.549
Yeah.

01:46:36.759 --> 01:46:37.234
So, or, or

01:46:38.139 --> 01:46:40.749
Troy Shaw: Yeah, maybe, but sometimes
actually we might say to some of the

01:46:40.749 --> 01:46:44.319
students who are working at site one
that we're gonna go to Dolby today.

01:46:44.829 --> 01:46:45.039
Rupert Isaacson: Right.

01:46:45.729 --> 01:46:47.559
Troy Shaw: To go and do some care
for the older horses, you know?

01:46:47.559 --> 01:46:47.679
Right.

01:46:47.834 --> 01:46:49.659
It's always, it builds
that kind of empathy.

01:46:49.659 --> 01:46:52.539
So you're gonna go care for
the horses who have retired.

01:46:52.959 --> 01:46:53.319
Rupert Isaacson: Yeah.

01:46:53.409 --> 01:46:55.779
Troy Shaw: They're gonna take that as a
life skill to go and care for other people

01:46:55.779 --> 01:46:58.539
that have, you know, oh, we're gonna need
to look after people that have retired

01:46:58.539 --> 01:47:01.209
and not just shove them off and stuff.

01:47:01.659 --> 01:47:03.959
They they start to build an
understanding of the world

01:47:03.959 --> 01:47:06.929
through doing things for others.

01:47:07.049 --> 01:47:11.879
Although the others are horses, it
still gives them that inroad into it.

01:47:12.854 --> 01:47:13.394
Rupert Isaacson: Yeah.

01:47:13.504 --> 01:47:16.754
I love the fact that you, you do these
different environments when you know, when

01:47:16.754 --> 01:47:18.254
we were working, particularly in Germany

01:47:18.304 --> 01:47:18.314
Troy Shaw: yeah.

01:47:18.874 --> 01:47:23.434
Rupert Isaacson: I would often
not meet clients at our location.

01:47:23.734 --> 01:47:23.944
Troy Shaw: Yeah.

01:47:24.004 --> 01:47:26.224
Rupert Isaacson: I would say this
person really needs more forest time.

01:47:26.224 --> 01:47:30.994
And I'd say, meet me in this car park,
you know, by the forest over there.

01:47:31.264 --> 01:47:34.714
And I would ride the horse over
there and we're gonna do all

01:47:34.714 --> 01:47:36.844
our stuff in that forest today.

01:47:37.264 --> 01:47:38.584
And then you guys drive home.

01:47:38.584 --> 01:47:39.514
I'll ride my horse home.

01:47:39.964 --> 01:47:42.514
I love the fact that, and then
nature would be involved in that

01:47:42.514 --> 01:47:44.224
'cause it never to be wildlife.

01:47:44.224 --> 01:47:48.904
You'd be into trees, you'd be into, you
know, plants and, and rocks and water.

01:47:49.174 --> 01:47:51.154
And I love the fact that you're
bringing that side of things

01:47:51.154 --> 01:47:52.264
over into your third site.

01:47:52.504 --> 01:47:52.744
Yeah.

01:47:52.744 --> 01:47:52.764
You know?

01:47:52.899 --> 01:47:57.004
Are you, what are your plans for
bringing that wilderness nature?

01:47:57.424 --> 01:47:57.604
Yeah.

01:47:57.604 --> 01:47:58.684
What's your vision for that?

01:47:59.164 --> 01:48:01.954
Troy Shaw: So the next step there has
been some drive space, some indoor

01:48:01.954 --> 01:48:07.084
space and some, you know, basic
AM amenities to make it so that,

01:48:07.204 --> 01:48:09.124
'cause at the moment the students
will go there, they go for a visit.

01:48:09.664 --> 01:48:10.744
And it's like almost like a rush.

01:48:10.744 --> 01:48:11.674
They've gotta then get back.

01:48:12.244 --> 01:48:15.214
So what we're trying to do over
the next couple of years is make

01:48:15.214 --> 01:48:16.534
it so they can go and stay there.

01:48:16.564 --> 01:48:16.594
Okay.

01:48:17.494 --> 01:48:19.234
And potentially they'll
start from there as well.

01:48:19.414 --> 01:48:20.794
So we're putting a base staff there.

01:48:20.794 --> 01:48:22.114
At the moment, the staff
aren't based there.

01:48:22.114 --> 01:48:23.404
They drive there with the students.

01:48:23.764 --> 01:48:24.094
Rupert Isaacson: Right.

01:48:24.184 --> 01:48:26.644
Troy Shaw: So we'll end up with it
being a base where staff will go and

01:48:26.884 --> 01:48:28.834
start their day and end their day.

01:48:29.224 --> 01:48:31.204
So it may see a little
bit more of a And are you

01:48:31.204 --> 01:48:33.664
Rupert Isaacson: doing nature education
there that's sort of beyond horses?

01:48:33.664 --> 01:48:37.084
Are you doing, you know, trees,
woodland management, that sort of thing?

01:48:37.144 --> 01:48:37.384
Troy Shaw: Yeah.

01:48:37.414 --> 01:48:39.104
'cause we, we had a group of
students go over there and

01:48:39.104 --> 01:48:40.154
they helped us plant the trees.

01:48:40.454 --> 01:48:41.144
Rupert Isaacson: Fantastic.

01:48:41.204 --> 01:48:43.784
Troy Shaw: So they actually start to dig
the holes and they try and get the lines

01:48:43.784 --> 01:48:45.134
and levels and all that kind of stuff.

01:48:45.134 --> 01:48:48.164
And they get the driver
tractor, but don't tell anybody.

01:48:48.594 --> 01:48:48.654
Yeah.

01:48:50.064 --> 01:48:54.854
So they, they get involved in all sorts
of stuff like that, which is helps with

01:48:54.854 --> 01:48:58.634
their skills, you know, and I, I, I
had a dig of the day and they helped

01:48:58.634 --> 01:49:00.494
me help with digger a little bit.

01:49:01.184 --> 01:49:01.484
So

01:49:02.714 --> 01:49:06.284
Rupert Isaacson: it's what I'm, what I'm
hoping that listeners and viewers get

01:49:06.284 --> 01:49:09.134
from this is that you should diversify.

01:49:09.644 --> 01:49:12.674
You need to, that you should use the
imagination, whether it's for dress up

01:49:12.674 --> 01:49:17.474
and silly, or whether it's for, well,
could we not do something beyond horses?

01:49:17.804 --> 01:49:17.894
Yeah.

01:49:17.894 --> 01:49:20.834
Or could we not have more than one campus?

01:49:21.014 --> 01:49:25.424
Or could one of our campuses
be actually all about nature?

01:49:25.589 --> 01:49:25.879
Troy Shaw: Yeah.

01:49:25.939 --> 01:49:26.159
Or,

01:49:26.579 --> 01:49:29.744
Rupert Isaacson: you know, I,
I, I love this 'cause I, I, this

01:49:29.744 --> 01:49:31.874
doesn't necessarily come naturally,
I think to a lot of people.

01:49:31.874 --> 01:49:31.964
No.

01:49:33.674 --> 01:49:36.674
Troy Shaw: So our, our next sort
of idea for diversifying is to

01:49:36.674 --> 01:49:38.854
probably look at how we expand this.

01:49:38.914 --> 01:49:40.234
So how we sort of franchise it.

01:49:40.864 --> 01:49:41.104
Rupert Isaacson: Okay.

01:49:41.104 --> 01:49:41.194
And

01:49:41.194 --> 01:49:42.904
Troy Shaw: make open to other places.

01:49:42.904 --> 01:49:46.264
So we've, we've spent quite a
lot of time building programs and

01:49:46.264 --> 01:49:49.174
things into our everyday offering.

01:49:49.774 --> 01:49:52.084
So it's how do we rather let
somebody else reinvent this?

01:49:52.084 --> 01:49:55.024
Well, how do we actually expand
this into, I dunno, the north of the

01:49:55.024 --> 01:49:58.744
country or to Scotland or to, you
know, Cornwall or something like that.

01:49:58.744 --> 01:49:58.834
Right.

01:49:59.434 --> 01:50:02.074
So people can just lift what we've done.

01:50:03.014 --> 01:50:03.764
It sounds that easy.

01:50:04.334 --> 01:50:06.494
It still needs to answer
that human environment.

01:50:06.494 --> 01:50:06.614
Well, I

01:50:06.614 --> 01:50:08.624
Rupert Isaacson: mean, you could argue
that's what Horse Boy has done, right?

01:50:08.624 --> 01:50:08.684
Yeah.

01:50:08.689 --> 01:50:09.109
Yeah, exactly.

01:50:09.109 --> 01:50:14.514
And what we, we, we went through this
sort of question in the early days when it

01:50:14.514 --> 01:50:16.674
was pretty clear that it was gonna grow.

01:50:16.884 --> 01:50:17.094
Troy Shaw: Yeah.

01:50:17.214 --> 01:50:19.164
Rupert Isaacson: And we
thought, do we franchise?

01:50:19.644 --> 01:50:23.754
Because then you've got all this
difficulty of controlling a product.

01:50:24.274 --> 01:50:28.954
And inevitably that's gonna be beyond your
control, particularly if you're doing it

01:50:29.134 --> 01:50:29.764
Troy Shaw: in multiple

01:50:29.764 --> 01:50:30.124
Rupert Isaacson: countries.

01:50:30.184 --> 01:50:37.954
Or do you just give people a toolbox
and say, with this toolbox, do what

01:50:37.954 --> 01:50:40.234
you feel is right for your context.

01:50:40.574 --> 01:50:44.684
If you want to put, you know our
name on it, we do require that

01:50:44.684 --> 01:50:47.684
you go through an evaluation
process and meet certain criteria.

01:50:47.684 --> 01:50:48.194
Yes.

01:50:48.524 --> 01:50:52.124
But one of the things I love about Horse
Boy places is I know if I come to New

01:50:52.124 --> 01:50:54.194
Leaf, it's going to look different.

01:50:54.599 --> 01:50:55.619
To my place.

01:50:55.619 --> 01:50:59.069
And that's gonna look different to
Joel Dunlap's place in California.

01:50:59.069 --> 01:51:03.869
And that's gonna look different to Kati
and Henrik KO's place in, in Germany.

01:51:03.869 --> 01:51:10.739
And it should, yeah, because that way each
place is authentically has its, has its

01:51:10.739 --> 01:51:16.079
own energy and charm while making sure
that a certain kind of neuroplasticity

01:51:16.469 --> 01:51:19.319
is guaranteed and a certain kind
of horse welfare is guaranteed.

01:51:19.679 --> 01:51:22.769
But beyond that, I, I, I want
people to be much more creative.

01:51:23.039 --> 01:51:23.099
Yeah.

01:51:23.199 --> 01:51:25.299
And I don't wanna stand in
the way of that, you know?

01:51:25.299 --> 01:51:30.099
So as you, as you begin to think in those
terms you know, you what, what, what are

01:51:30.099 --> 01:51:31.934
your thoughts on how you expand NewLeaf?

01:51:33.039 --> 01:51:34.149
Troy Shaw: That's, that's
the challenge, isn't it?

01:51:34.149 --> 01:51:37.429
'cause what, 'cause how you've
done horse boy and movement method

01:51:37.429 --> 01:51:38.449
and all those sort of things.

01:51:38.989 --> 01:51:41.029
It's, I mean, full credit.

01:51:41.029 --> 01:51:46.099
'cause you've, you've let it
grow, but you've not, sounds bad.

01:51:46.099 --> 01:51:46.909
You've not interfered.

01:51:47.089 --> 01:51:47.779
Does that make sense?

01:51:47.989 --> 01:51:48.169
Yeah.

01:51:48.169 --> 01:51:48.529
No, sure.

01:51:48.534 --> 01:51:50.389
You've, you've not been on
the phone going, well, I don't

01:51:50.389 --> 01:51:51.199
like the way we've done that.

01:51:51.199 --> 01:51:53.839
You need to change this 'cause
you're using, you know, and if you're

01:51:53.839 --> 01:51:55.159
quoting me, you've gotta do this way.

01:51:55.159 --> 01:51:55.939
And I, I'm not saying

01:51:55.939 --> 01:51:58.969
Rupert Isaacson: we've never had that
situation, but very, very little.

01:51:58.969 --> 01:51:59.179
Yeah.

01:51:59.209 --> 01:52:02.389
Troy Shaw: We, we've never
ever had that feeling from, you

01:52:02.389 --> 01:52:03.529
know, working with you guys.

01:52:03.769 --> 01:52:04.069
Rupert Isaacson: No.

01:52:04.249 --> 01:52:05.599
Troy Shaw: So it's always
been a supportive thing.

01:52:05.599 --> 01:52:06.889
And that's, that's something that.

01:52:07.834 --> 01:52:10.474
I dunno how you, it's
such a hard thing to do.

01:52:12.029 --> 01:52:12.754
Well, I'd be really

01:52:12.754 --> 01:52:13.444
Rupert Isaacson: talking about support.

01:52:13.444 --> 01:52:15.424
I'd be really interested in helping you

01:52:15.514 --> 01:52:15.814
Troy Shaw: Yeah.

01:52:16.054 --> 01:52:16.414
Rupert Isaacson: Grow.

01:52:16.414 --> 01:52:18.604
Like, you know me, I'm not territorial.

01:52:18.724 --> 01:52:19.024
Troy Shaw: No.

01:52:19.144 --> 01:52:21.454
Rupert Isaacson: But, you know, if
you're doing war sports, if you want

01:52:21.454 --> 01:52:25.864
to create a New Leaf program, because
I have absolute faith in what New Leaf

01:52:25.864 --> 01:52:28.094
does I'm just honored to be a part of it.

01:52:28.574 --> 01:52:33.569
I, I, I, I find those types of
collaborations really fulfilling

01:52:33.569 --> 01:52:34.799
because they're so creative.

01:52:35.249 --> 01:52:35.789
I'm just, yeah.

01:52:35.789 --> 01:52:39.299
So, so when you've envisaged it in
your mind, let's say there were,

01:52:39.509 --> 01:52:44.019
you know, a dozen new leaf through
the uk what would be the sort of

01:52:46.899 --> 01:52:50.799
underlying denominator
factor that you would want?

01:52:50.799 --> 01:52:53.499
There'd be like these three things that
you want to see, or something like that.

01:52:53.499 --> 01:52:54.579
What, what, what would they be?

01:52:54.579 --> 01:52:54.639
So

01:52:55.659 --> 01:52:57.189
Troy Shaw: the primary focus needs
to be on the outcomes for the

01:52:57.189 --> 01:52:58.599
individual that come to the place.

01:52:58.599 --> 01:52:59.289
Mm-hmm.

01:52:59.619 --> 01:53:03.229
So that it's gonna meet what they
are therefore, whether it's through

01:53:03.229 --> 01:53:06.289
just getting them on the right
track with their mental health or

01:53:06.289 --> 01:53:10.109
whether it's gonna be educational
outcomes, et cetera, et cetera.

01:53:10.739 --> 01:53:13.229
So the focus always needs to be on
the outcomes for the individual.

01:53:14.219 --> 01:53:17.019
The second one is being
true to that environment.

01:53:18.369 --> 01:53:22.539
So working within that environment,
making the environment work for everybody.

01:53:23.859 --> 01:53:27.219
And, you know, especially around the human
environment, which would probably be the

01:53:27.219 --> 01:53:30.249
hardest thing to lift and put in place.

01:53:30.279 --> 01:53:33.189
'cause that's, we've, we've,
we've learned the hard way.

01:53:34.179 --> 01:53:38.439
So we have had people that have
been less adapted to what we do,

01:53:38.439 --> 01:53:41.559
you know, with the right intentions.

01:53:41.559 --> 01:53:44.859
People that tend to be more
of a formal background.

01:53:44.859 --> 01:53:47.259
So teachers and stuff like that
tend to struggle a little bit

01:53:47.259 --> 01:53:49.359
more 'cause they've been in the
environment where it's small targets.

01:53:50.139 --> 01:53:53.139
So we've learned the hard way
on how that human environment

01:53:53.559 --> 01:53:55.119
is such a challenge to create.

01:53:55.119 --> 01:53:55.689
Rupert Isaacson: Mm-hmm.

01:53:55.974 --> 01:54:03.609
Troy Shaw: And then I think the third
one is to, I know, just keep it fun.

01:54:04.179 --> 01:54:04.509
Rupert Isaacson: Yeah.

01:54:04.929 --> 01:54:06.729
Troy Shaw: Because, and, and
then as I'm talking about this

01:54:06.729 --> 01:54:07.899
franchise and, and stuff like that.

01:54:08.814 --> 01:54:12.219
One, one of the things it's almost
like done, if you're not careful

01:54:12.219 --> 01:54:14.019
for us, that goes full circle.

01:54:14.289 --> 01:54:17.619
What we don't want to do is, again, and
get a Lorraine back in a car going between

01:54:17.619 --> 01:54:21.459
little new leaf sites all over the country
doing her, it'd be like a bit of a what?

01:54:21.519 --> 01:54:22.299
How did that happen?

01:54:22.599 --> 01:54:22.959
Yes.

01:54:23.109 --> 01:54:25.749
That's, that's really almost
like a thing to avoid.

01:54:25.749 --> 01:54:26.289
Isn't it going?

01:54:26.289 --> 01:54:27.279
That doesn't sound like fun.

01:54:27.519 --> 01:54:27.819
No.

01:54:28.269 --> 01:54:32.199
So, you know, but out there,
there are people that do enjoy

01:54:32.199 --> 01:54:32.979
doing that kind of stuff.

01:54:32.979 --> 01:54:33.189
So.

01:54:33.369 --> 01:54:36.249
Rupert Isaacson: Well, I love, I love
the fact that you, okay, so let's say

01:54:36.249 --> 01:54:39.609
fun is one of your three denominators.

01:54:39.669 --> 01:54:39.909
Troy Shaw: Yeah.

01:54:40.069 --> 01:54:40.939
Rupert Isaacson: Because we now know Yeah.

01:54:40.939 --> 01:54:41.599
Fun is play.

01:54:41.599 --> 01:54:42.469
Play is imagination.

01:54:42.469 --> 01:54:43.879
Imagination is neuroplasticity.

01:54:44.029 --> 01:54:45.409
Neuroplasticity is resilience.

01:54:45.649 --> 01:54:46.489
Dah, dah, dah, dah, dah.

01:54:47.809 --> 01:54:52.309
I'd be very, very interested
in, in helping to develop that.

01:54:52.504 --> 01:54:52.794
Yeah.

01:54:52.849 --> 01:54:57.174
'Cause I think it's, it's needed now more
than ever as society gets more joyless.

01:54:57.224 --> 01:54:57.504
Troy Shaw: Yeah.

01:54:58.859 --> 01:55:01.449
Rupert Isaacson: Alright, well
listen let's look to that future.

01:55:01.609 --> 01:55:06.919
And I think particularly those viewers
and listeners who are thinking of

01:55:06.919 --> 01:55:10.309
starting a place, worried about
making that leap, those of you who

01:55:10.309 --> 01:55:16.519
are in the UK and want some mentorship
or a job, contact Troy once again.

01:55:16.519 --> 01:55:18.559
Troy, give us the contact details.

01:55:18.769 --> 01:55:20.209
Troy Shaw: So it's,
it's newly of triangle.

01:55:20.309 --> 01:55:21.899
Dot co uk is the website.

01:55:22.229 --> 01:55:23.879
Rupert Isaacson: New Leaf triangle.

01:55:23.884 --> 01:55:24.094
Yeah.

01:55:24.554 --> 01:55:25.654
Do co uk

01:55:25.914 --> 01:55:26.789
Troy Shaw: UK Yeah.

01:55:26.789 --> 01:55:27.629
So that's on there.

01:55:27.759 --> 01:55:28.989
And then all the phone
numbers are on there.

01:55:29.259 --> 01:55:29.559
Rupert Isaacson: Yeah.

01:55:29.559 --> 01:55:30.189
And they can email.

01:55:30.189 --> 01:55:30.339
You're on

01:55:30.579 --> 01:55:31.599
Troy Shaw: a sensible conversation.

01:55:31.599 --> 01:55:32.289
Talk to Lorraine

01:55:33.939 --> 01:55:34.029
Rupert Isaacson: and

01:55:34.029 --> 01:55:35.064
Troy Shaw: if you wanna
know, if you wanna dress up

01:55:35.064 --> 01:55:36.309
Rupert Isaacson: as a
pirate, talk to Yeah.

01:55:37.359 --> 01:55:40.299
Troy Shaw: To be honest, if,
if without her credibility and

01:55:40.299 --> 01:55:43.179
without her tenacity and sort of
enthusiasm, you know, we wouldn't

01:55:43.179 --> 01:55:44.319
be anywhere near where we are today.

01:55:44.769 --> 01:55:48.279
So, all jokes aside, I'm, I'm
allowed to do what I do because

01:55:48.489 --> 01:55:49.929
of the work that she's put in.

01:55:49.929 --> 01:55:50.649
And just that a hundred

01:55:50.649 --> 01:55:53.049
Rupert Isaacson: percent and, and,
and much respect to her, you know?

01:55:53.049 --> 01:55:53.139
Yeah.

01:55:53.949 --> 01:55:57.729
That, that, that the fact that she

01:55:58.539 --> 01:55:58.809
Troy Shaw: Yeah.

01:55:59.289 --> 01:56:01.059
Rupert Isaacson: Met me in that context.

01:56:01.719 --> 01:56:01.779
Yeah.

01:56:01.779 --> 01:56:03.699
Thought actually this
bloke's making sense.

01:56:03.819 --> 01:56:03.969
Yeah.

01:56:03.999 --> 01:56:06.459
Even though the other people
in the room were completely

01:56:06.459 --> 01:56:07.749
rejecting what I was saying.

01:56:08.139 --> 01:56:08.289
Yeah.

01:56:08.289 --> 01:56:13.584
And then pulled you down to London that
same night and said, we are doing this.

01:56:13.784 --> 01:56:17.949
I mean, the human quality
that that takes to Yeah.

01:56:19.149 --> 01:56:21.519
Just sort of say this makes sense.

01:56:21.549 --> 01:56:22.689
Gonna go for it.

01:56:24.084 --> 01:56:25.344
Not everyone has that courage.

01:56:25.344 --> 01:56:25.584
Yeah,

01:56:26.274 --> 01:56:26.694
Troy Shaw: no, no.

01:56:26.694 --> 01:56:28.614
And that, that, that's why
it's worked so well, I think.

01:56:28.614 --> 01:56:32.394
'cause that, you know, I'd, I'd have run
outta steam personally years ago, but

01:56:32.394 --> 01:56:34.494
she's just kept us going and pushing and

01:56:34.764 --> 01:56:35.214
Rupert Isaacson: Yeah.

01:56:35.334 --> 01:56:37.434
Troy Shaw: You know, always in
the right direction, always on

01:56:37.434 --> 01:56:39.384
the right side of the legislation.

01:56:39.384 --> 01:56:40.974
Always one foot, one step ahead.

01:56:40.974 --> 01:56:44.004
And, you know, it's, it's,
it must be exhausting.

01:56:45.654 --> 01:56:46.109
Rupert Isaacson: Well, what I've

01:56:46.109 --> 01:56:46.709
Troy Shaw: gotta do is dress up,

01:56:48.294 --> 01:56:49.944
Rupert Isaacson: well, maybe
you stop her from burning up by

01:56:49.944 --> 01:56:52.914
dressing up so she can always roll
her eyes or there goes Troy again.

01:56:52.914 --> 01:56:53.064
But

01:56:53.369 --> 01:56:56.064
Troy Shaw: the amount of times the eyes
get rolled at me, whether it's Lorraine or

01:56:56.064 --> 01:56:58.824
Tilly or, or the local village or whoever,

01:56:59.034 --> 01:57:00.654
Rupert Isaacson: that's what
we exist for though, isn't it?

01:57:00.654 --> 01:57:03.204
We are the people who give
the other people, people the

01:57:03.204 --> 01:57:04.524
opportunity to roll their eyes.

01:57:04.614 --> 01:57:05.249
Troy Shaw: Yeah, exactly.

01:57:05.559 --> 01:57:06.009
It's a service.

01:57:06.834 --> 01:57:07.164
Rupert Isaacson: Exactly.

01:57:07.164 --> 01:57:07.614
Indeed.

01:57:07.869 --> 01:57:08.289
Indeed.

01:57:08.634 --> 01:57:09.954
For which we should be paid, I think.

01:57:09.954 --> 01:57:10.494
Troy Shaw: Exactly.

01:57:10.764 --> 01:57:11.274
Rupert Isaacson: Exactly.

01:57:11.964 --> 01:57:13.374
Alright, my friend brilliant.

01:57:13.374 --> 01:57:13.404
It's been brilliant.

01:57:13.914 --> 01:57:13.974
Yeah.

01:57:14.024 --> 01:57:18.074
I look forward to the next conversation
about how New Leaf is gonna grow in the uk

01:57:18.284 --> 01:57:19.154
Troy Shaw: Yeah, yeah,

01:57:19.274 --> 01:57:20.834
Rupert Isaacson: let's
talk about that next time

01:57:21.164 --> 01:57:24.704
Troy Shaw: and, and, and anybody we
can help more than happy to help.

01:57:25.064 --> 01:57:25.454
Rupert Isaacson: Okay.

01:57:25.754 --> 01:57:30.584
And yeah, if, if, if, if anyone is
in that East Midland sector of the

01:57:30.584 --> 01:57:35.434
uk, these guys are doing sterling
work with a all manner of population.

01:57:35.434 --> 01:57:36.634
So get in touch with them.

01:57:37.174 --> 01:57:37.324
Troy Shaw: Yeah.

01:57:37.534 --> 01:57:37.834
Awesome.

01:57:37.834 --> 01:57:38.194
Rupert Isaacson: All right.

01:57:38.899 --> 01:57:39.449
Troy Shaw: Thank you.

01:57:39.819 --> 01:57:40.289
Rupert Isaacson: Thank you.

01:57:40.424 --> 01:57:43.544
I hope you enjoyed today's
conversation as much as I did.

01:57:44.084 --> 01:57:48.984
If you like what we're doing here,
please do like, subscribe, tell a friend.

01:57:48.994 --> 01:57:53.164
It so helps us to get this valuable
work done and the message of

01:57:53.164 --> 01:57:55.044
Equine Assisted Stuff out there.

01:57:55.194 --> 01:57:58.274
And if you're interested in more
conversations, you might want to check

01:57:58.284 --> 01:58:00.964
out I'll live free ride free podcast.

01:58:01.354 --> 01:58:06.114
And if you'd like to support the
podcasts, please go to rupertisakson.

01:58:06.164 --> 01:58:08.654
com and click on the Patreon link.

01:58:09.354 --> 01:58:12.874
If you're a professional in the equine
assisted field or considering a career

01:58:13.224 --> 01:58:16.734
in the equine assisted field, you
might want to check out our three

01:58:16.744 --> 01:58:22.504
certification programs, horseboy
method, movement method, and taquin.

01:58:22.589 --> 01:58:24.059
Equine integration.

01:58:24.329 --> 01:58:29.279
You can find all of those over
on new Trails learning.com.

01:58:29.479 --> 01:58:32.869
And finally, if you want to check
out our cool rock and roll themed

01:58:32.869 --> 01:58:35.889
merch back on rupert isaacson.com,

01:58:36.219 --> 01:58:37.359
please click on Shop.

01:58:37.419 --> 01:58:39.099
You'll find all kinds
of fun goodies there.

01:58:39.279 --> 01:58:44.669
And if you're looking for a way to spend
time until the next podcast, you might

01:58:44.669 --> 01:58:48.779
want to consider reading the books that
kicked all this off The Horse Boy, the

01:58:48.779 --> 01:58:51.589
Long Ride Home and The Healing Land.

01:58:51.859 --> 01:58:53.479
So see you next time on Equine Assistant.

01:58:53.599 --> 01:58:53.929
world.

01:58:54.189 --> 01:58:55.379
Join us for the adventure.