Mike Kostyo (00:00) On this episode of The Mess Hall, we discuss just how fancy the food was at this year's Fancy Food Show, and then we talk to Susie Badaraco, who went from tracking serial killers to serial bars. Mike Kostyo (00:47) All right, for today's episode, I thought we would talk about the Fancy Food Show because we just came back from the show. Was that last week, two weeks ago, whenever it was? That's actually insane, seriously. And just kind of talk about our thoughts. We can talk a little bit about the area that we curated at the show. I mean, overall, what did you think of the show this year? Maeve Webster (00:55) Last week. Yeah, it's hard to keep track. was good. I thought it was interesting. don't know if you agree with this because we really haven't had a chance to chat about it too much. But I know it's so busy, so busy. I don't know that I saw any overarching trends. I mean, there have been other times when we've been at either the Summer or the Winter show and there have been clear like winter last year was clearly due by chocolate was beginning to kick off, right? That was the foreshadowing of what we were in the middle of now. But Mike Kostyo (01:13) It's true, been so busy. Dubai Dubai Dubai. ⁓ Maeve Webster (01:34) Yeah, I didn't see anything where I would say this looks to be the next trend. It seemed like a lot of similar trends that we've seen before and just kind of them continuing. But nothing that really struck me. There were some great products. mean, certainly some really great products, but I didn't see any trends. What did you think? Mike Kostyo (01:50) Mm-hmm. No, I agree. You know, yes, I think we certainly saw some of the trends from previous years were on display, but almost I hate to say sputtering out. Maybe a better way to term it is that, some of the brands that are doing a great job in those areas are surviving. And some of those brands that just kind of latched onto the trend and kind of shoved it out there maybe haven't survived. So there were, plenty of Dubai chocolate brands that you saw at the show. Maeve Webster (02:10) Mm-hmm. Mike Kostyo (02:19) But I didn't feel like it was every third booth like we saw at the summer show. And I also felt like there was kind of this feeling on behalf of the attendees that there was enough to buy chocolate. You know what we've been talking about. We don't need to see so much of it. I think there were a lot of beverages as usual. But again, it wasn't necessarily all kind of the spirit free or. Maeve Webster (02:22) Mm-hmm. Mike Kostyo (02:42) or no alcohol, whatever you want to call it. It wasn't all that. It was just a wider range of beverages. So I think for me, yeah, the theme was just some really good products, some really passionate entrepreneurs who were producing things that they were very proud of, which was nice. Maeve Webster (02:58) agree, the thing that stood out to me was quality and not necessarily premium like caviar level quality, right? But just great quality at the price point that they were aiming for and smaller product lines, right? More concentrated producers that were really specializing in something with very strong backstories, right? So not to your point, do buy chocolate because isn't that what everybody wants? But Mike Kostyo (03:01) Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. Yeah. Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. Yes. Mm-hmm. Maeve Webster (03:25) This was my family's heritage. This is ⁓ something I'm passionate about. This is where I've spent all of my professional life honing the skill kind of thing. So I did think that that was notable at the show. Mike Kostyo (03:28) Mm-hmm. I agree. And I think the nice thing about that kind of the storytelling and the family driven brands is, know, sometimes when we talk about the food industry, there's almost been, I think for the past, I would say few years, but even five, six, seven years, almost a negativity that has settled in. I think we talked about it this year when it came to our consumer needs where everybody's skeptical of the food industry. And, we've talked about same of vacation. And I think the nice thing that we saw this show was There really are some great food brands that are up and coming in the industry and even fairly established in the industry that are passionate, that are making great products, that those, teams behind them really believe in the products that they're producing. I think I actually purchased more products just for myself or for family members after this show than I've ever purchased from a previous show just because the products were great. I'm not going to purchase it if it's not delicious. but also because you want to support them and you really believe in that family. So we curated an area of the show that was in Discovery Point. So Discovery Point was kind of the hands-on area. And so we curated a sensory aspect of the show where we had two different entrepreneurs that were there showcasing sensory aspects of their products. And over the past few months as we curated that area, we got to talk to them in depth. We got to hear about their brands. And I feel like we're all friends now. I feel like I'm as passionate about their brands as they are. And well, they are very passionate about their brands. I think that skepticism that is built into the food industry, sure. There are some brands out there that do not have consumers' best interests at heart or just phoning it in. But there are some really, really great small producers out there that really do deserve our support. Maeve Webster (05:27) I mean, I, you know what I thought was, because this was the first time we had done this discovery point. Obviously it was the first time at winter fancy fair. Exactly. And obviously it was new to everybody who was involved from the show down to the entrepreneurs. I, because it was so new, because nothing had been done like that before. You and I had an idea of what could work, but that was just our idea. wasn't our products. Mike Kostyo (05:32) Yeah, yeah. That they had done it, yeah. Maeve Webster (05:52) And I was so impressed by how every one of the entrepreneurs took that idea and really ran with it and really thought through what does this mean? Not broadly, what is everyone else doing? But each one thought, can I do that will showcase my product in the best way? Which obviously they should be doing in general. But the fact that they really embraced that idea, it wasn't just, we'll do a tasting, right? Which is what they're doing anyway. Every one of them came with a really unique way of showcasing why their products, their expertise, what they're offering is unique to anything else out there. And that was really impressive and it was very fun to watch. Mike Kostyo (06:36) Absolutely, agreed. part of the reason that we were asked to curate this area was because of some of the sensory research that we had done previously. And so that research really showed that at a time when consumers are so glued to their screens, if you give them a more multi-sensory experience, it just engages them more. It gets them to put their phone down. Or if they're going to pick their phone down, it's to really engage with their product because they want to take a video of it. We presented that data at the Fancy Food Show last year, and then that became this Discovery Point Sensory Pod area. It brought all of that research and data and the ideas behind it to life in a way that was so exciting. It's exactly what you said. At the last day, we had Club Magic Hour, which is a tea brand, and Zina, the founder of that brand, she knows tea, she's very passionate about tea, but she also has this spiritual side to her. And so she did tarot readings. And so you could come up to the booth and you can have your tarot card read. And then based on that, she not only talked about what that meant for you, but then here's the perfect tea for you based on that. You know, here's the blend that kind of aligns with what you may need in life. We had bougie brown butter was there, which I think is a phenomenal product. And she took that, it's brown butter. It's a very basic product. She took it and she thought through all five senses and what that sensory experience would be tied to each of those five senses. First, you lift up the packaging, which is gorgeous. It's called bougie. It's wrapped in this gold wrapping. She has individual servings that are in these plastic containers, so you can see right into them. There was the great visual element. Then she had you hold it up to your nose and you got that great nutty aroma from it. By the end of that five-minute experience, You had experienced every single sense through one product. It was a great job that she did. I wish we could talk about all 10 because exactly what you just said, they all did such a great job. Maeve Webster (08:32) And you know what I thought was really interesting about bougie butter and I agree, I feel bad that we're not gonna have the time to run through everybody. But because everyone did a great job. So if you're listening, we appreciate all of the effort that you put in. Mike Kostyo (08:37) I know. Yeah. Yeah. Yes, yes. And go to our LinkedIn because we've named all of the brands and we've talked about what they did at the show so you can connect with each of them. Maeve Webster (08:47) Yes. Yeah, absolutely. But what I thought was really interesting that bougie butter did was they had for the sense of smell, what plain butter without being brown smells like, what brown butter smells like, but then also what brown butter that's been taken too far smells like. And I thought that was so smart because browning butter seems like a very easy thing and then technically it is. But if you're not paying attention, it can go. Mike Kostyo (08:58) Mm-hmm. Burnt, yeah, mhm. Maeve Webster (09:15) one step too far very, very fast. And then what you're left with is unusable, right? Because the smell is horrible, the taste is horrible. So I thought that it was really smart for her to do that, to demonstrate the fact that sure, you can brown your own butter, but why take that chance if this is what you can end up with? Mike Kostyo (09:32) She really is solving a need. And that is the nice thing about the show is, I mean, there were so many things that I saw and I think we both saw. that it's very easy to, as you've been in the industry for years, to feel like, there anything new left? What more can we do when it comes to fried chicken or coffee or whatever it may be? There's always an entrepreneur who's thinking of something new that really wows you. There is a great cake brand. There are a lot of actually interesting high-end cake mixes. You can tell when they're walking through the store and they're looking for parts of the store to disrupt. Then you can tell that a lot of brands think that the cake mix area is very disruptible and they're probably right. There was a great cake brand. I always get the name wrong. I want to say it was the Mixologist's Bakery or it's the Mixologist Cake Mixer. It's something like that. Basically, it's a cake mix and then you add whatever the Mixologist branding calls to mind. Maeve Webster (10:20) Hmm. ⁓ right. Yeah, I can't Mike Kostyo (10:32) adding some type of liqueur or a spirit, but you can add anything you want. She said, you can add Alipop if you love Alipop. There's a matcha brand next to her. She's like the next day they were going to add some of the matcha soda that they had into the cake. But you add whatever you want. It's three-quarters of a cup to the cake mix. Then you add, I think it's oil or egg or butter or something like that. Then you microwave it. You microwave it for seven to eight minutes. One, it's ⁓ an immediate reaction that you get in seven minutes, you get a full cake. But two, it allows you to personalize that cake and it's a clean ingredient for something that's microwaveable, it's a clean ingredient label. But it allows you to personalize it with a category that has been so vibrant in recent years. We've obviously seen so many great beverage brands, so many great on the alcohol and non-alcohol side. brands come to life and really engage with consumers. All it takes is three-quarters of a cup of that liquid, whatever it is, added to this cake. Now your favorite beverage is infused into that cake. What a great idea. Maeve Webster (11:41) Yeah. You know, It seemed like this year, part of the reason it felt a little bit more positive was that I do think a lot of brands have said, you know what, we're just going to do what we do best. And, and they're moving away from following the trends, which I think has freed up a lot of, of mental and emotional space for a lot of them to just focus on how do I make a great product? And it doesn't matter if it's on trend or not, which I actually think is very healthy for the industry. ⁓ Mike Kostyo (12:06) Absolutely. Agreed. Agreed. I think the hard thing and the thing that we always talk about is for these great brands that have these great stories. At a time when we are inundated with content and information, how do you get that great story across? The one that comes to mind is Gowin Cider Company, which was in our discovery area. Maeve Webster (12:24) Mm. Mike Kostyo (12:26) ⁓ that is a true family brand. It's an incredible cider. I think they've won every award that you can win for a cider company at this point. They have a really great premium cider product line. To me, if you want to graduate from those really sweet canned ciders that maybe you had in college to something that's a little bit more upscale and adult and interesting, Gowens would be the one that I would go to. Maeve Webster (12:46) Mm-hmm. Mike Kostyo (12:50) But the passion that Sharon, the owner ⁓ and the head of the family, that runs this print, the passion that she has on that show floor is incredible. I think in all of these trade shows, ⁓ a crowd begets more crowds where, people see, my gosh, there's 50 people at that booth. I have to see what's happening over there. And we saw that happen in our area where when she was out there and talking to people and people felt like they had to experience her cider. And actually she even had a little hiccup where the bartender couldn't make it over so she couldn't even sample her products. And yet people were still so excited to come meet her. So that passion that she has, Maeve Webster (13:24) Mm-hmm. Mike Kostyo (13:28) How do you translate that in a time when we're all exhausted by content and inundated with every video on earth? We scroll through TikTok and we see a hundred of them. How do you showcase those stories and really break through to people? Maeve Webster (13:43) you and I have already talked about our need states in another podcast, but that idea of creating meaning. And if anything is meaningful, it's seeing somebody who's creating a product and they're that passionate about it and it means that much to them. And they're excited about it and want to share it and not just because they want to make a sale and it's transactional, but because they really want you to understand they really want you to love it as much as they love it. And I think Mike Kostyo (13:50) Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. Maeve Webster (14:11) that meaning that was so inherent in everything that she was doing without being overt by saying this is meaningful and trying to make that the message, the fact that it simply was meaningful to her, that connects with people. And I think people are looking for that now because it is lacking in a lot of food brands, a lot of restaurants, it's just the same old, same old without any kind of passion or meaning behind it when it's meaningful. Mike Kostyo (14:19) Yes, yeah. Maeve Webster (14:36) that connects. You don't need to make an effort to make it connect. It simply does. Mike Kostyo (14:40) Agreed. I'll end on one last thing that I thought was interesting too. I think this is the first year that the Specialty Food Association that puts on the winter fancy fair, I apologize. They rebranded the winter option, came up with the trend of the year. I think it's their way of doing a Pantone color of the year or something like that. I was a little nervous when I heard about it because I thought it would be exactly what we talk about, to buy chocolate or have honey or something like that. Maeve Webster (14:58) Mm-hmm. Mike Kostyo (15:05) And instead, no, it was a theme. And maybe we're just happy because it was a theme that was really related to what we've been saying. But the theme was sense maxing. And so it's kind of exactly what we just talked about. This idea that in order to break through and reach a consumer at the end of the day, you'd need to think through that full sensory experience. And in some cases, boldness does not have to be adding every hot flavor or every, Maeve Webster (15:18) Mm-hmm. Mike Kostyo (15:32) bitter flavor. It can be a really engaging, crazy, over-the-top texture. It can be really cool, over-the-top, engaging packaging. So I love this idea of the trend of the year being something that is really applicable to a wide range of brands. And I think this one in particular, they really hit it head on. Maeve Webster (15:51) I couldn't agree more. I thought it was great and it's so appropriate. Mike Kostyo (15:54) Absolutely. Okay, well, until the summer fancy food show. And next up, we have a great guest that we're excited to share with you. Mike Kostyo (16:14) Well, I'm so excited to have this month's guest with us, who is easily one of the most interesting people in the entire industry with one of, think it's fair to say, the most unusual backgrounds in the industry. So we have Susie Baderacca with us, whenever we see you at conferences or events, Susie, you are always one of the people that I am most excited to see on stage because you always have a really unique way of coming at the industry. Maeve Webster (16:28) Yeah. So, No. Mike Kostyo (16:41) and the way that you view trends and what's happening and predictions, I think is just really singular when it comes to the food industry. So I will pass it over to you to introduce yourself and your company and that background that I was just talking about. Suzy Badaracco (16:54) Sure. So I am a trans foresight expert for the industry. I started a thousand years ago as a criminalist. So I was crime scene serial killers. was a drug toxicologist, et cetera, trained with FBI in US, trained with Scotland Yard in London for serial killers specifically. When I stopped stepping over dead bodies, I naturally went to culinary school. So I am a certified chef. and didn't know enough, I thought, in the industry. So I went back again. So my master's is actually in human nutrition. years ago, I got picked up by, I mean, a lot of years ago, got picked up by a think tank. And they're the ones that knew the original background. And so they said, instead of tracking serial killers, track serial bars. I was like, I totally get what you mean. And so that's how I started over like 24, 25 years ago, turned the military analytics and chaos analytics on their head. Maeve Webster (17:30) Thank you. Mike Kostyo (17:36) Hehehehehe Maeve Webster (17:37) Thank you. Suzy Badaracco (17:46) ⁓ to look at an industry instead of a single person, a criminal. Yeah. Mike Kostyo (17:51) Did I say that she has an interesting background or does she have an interesting background? Then as you do. Maeve Webster (17:56) I also like how you just put it and you're like, well, then that's it. That's my background. Simple as that. Mike Kostyo (18:01) All of us work in some capacity in food trends and forecasting. One of the questions I always ask is just what is your view of what a food trend even is? We throw that term around so often. Maeve Webster (18:06) Yeah. Mike Kostyo (18:13) And I think for a lot of people, it's just, it's something that I've been seeing a lot of, and I think it's kind of cool. So for you, if you had to define kind of a food trend or an industry trend, what would that definition be? You Suzy Badaracco (18:25) Think about that for a second. So. Maeve Webster (18:27) So. Suzy Badaracco (18:27) A trend is it can be a product or can be an event. It depends on like what context it can even be a behavior, could be a health anomaly that's going on. It's something that has the ability to form alliances, allies or adversaries. And it can evolve. a trend we think of trends, we always call trends him, her, he, she, because they actually have a life. Maeve Webster (18:37) It's. The end. Suzy Badaracco (18:54) of their own and they can interact, can evolve, they can die. But it has to be something that's multifaceted. Otherwise, what you've got is usually a poster child under a trend, like a little one hit wonder. But a trend itself is a living breathing entity that ⁓ has the ability to move, grow, die, transition, do a number of things. So they're extremely complicated little critters. Maeve Webster (19:19) the terms that you're using adversary and poster child. Those are obviously the names are intuitive, but people in the industry don't really use those terms when they're talking about trends. So can you give everybody a little bit of a background on what all those terms mean with regard to the trends? Mike Kostyo (19:21) That's always my question. Suzy Badaracco (19:35) So think of a trend like a human being. So for instance, if you wanna know if a trend is gonna be long lived, like it's gonna be around for a while, you wanna get on that bandwagon. And we talk in metaphors a lot, I agree. What you want to do with the trend is you want to look at, in layman's terms, what other trends does the first trend hook into? So give an example. Whole grains as a trend in general, like the idea of whole grains, single grains, ancient grains, that can go multiple locations. That can go into cereal, it can go into the bakery, it can go into beverage, it can go anywhere. And it has lots of health properties. that's it. So health is an ally to it. other categories are allies. It can get along with different fruit trends, vegetable trends, meat trends. So those are all allies. So we call them girlfriends. Sometimes we're like, who's our girlfriends? Does she play well? I'll give you a different example. Avocado toast has no girlfriends. Avocado toast operated off of pure ego. So if Mike Kostyo (20:27) You Suzy Badaracco (20:36) So it died after about a year, right? Like avocado toast stills there, just calm down everybody. But do you know what I mean? She's kind of a one hit wonder. So think of a party, here's what's going to happen. If whole grains as trend, if that comes, if you have a party, want to buy whole grains, whole grains is going to come in a beautiful, you know, just trend forward outfit. They're going to come just about 10 minutes after the party starts, they're absolutely going to give you an amazing gift. Mike Kostyo (20:43) Hehehehe. Suzy Badaracco (21:02) right, little hostess gift, they're going to circulate evenly, and they're probably going to stay and help you clean up. Right? If avocado toast comes to your party, she's going to be late, drunk already, probably spilled someone's drink, you know, leave early and you may or may not have jewelry missing when she goes. And you're not going to invite her back. Mike Kostyo (21:09) You Ha ha You Maeve Webster (21:23) you Mike Kostyo (21:24) So where where would Dubai chocolate be? Maeve Webster (21:26) Let's be clear, by the way, that this is not avocado. the avocado groups don't think that we're talking about avocado in general. Suzy Badaracco (21:34) specifically as it trends. A little avocado toe has an attitude and it's not it's not warranted. Maeve Webster (21:35) There we go. Yeah. Right. Yeah. Mike Kostyo (21:42) So what would Dubai chocolate as a party go or be like? Suzy Badaracco (21:47) It's not far behind avocado. Maeve Webster (21:49) we'll go home. Mike Kostyo (21:49) Yeah, takes over the room, Suzy Badaracco (21:50) He's gonna pass Mike Kostyo (21:51) burst through the door. Suzy Badaracco (21:51) out on your couch, you're gonna have to call his wife to come pick him up, you know, he's got all these stains on the couch too, because he's chocolate, like, and then he's gonna, you know, he may have, you know, he may cheat on the wife with a muffin or something, you know, but then, you know, it's... Mike Kostyo (21:58) ⁓ huh Maeve Webster (21:58) Yeah. Yeah. Mike Kostyo (22:09) With a muffin. Well, yes, he does get around. I think we have certainly seen that. Yeah. Maeve Webster (22:11) ⁓ God, too much. Yep, yep. Suzy Badaracco (22:12) Well because you couldn't wake up! You could break up and put it into a muffin. That's about as far as it would get. Right? You can't go very many places. like avocado toast can't Avocado toast is better than a ring though. She would never have an affair with anybody. But to buy chocolate, I wouldn't put it past him. Mike Kostyo (22:22) Ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha Maeve Webster (22:22) I think that- However, Susie, we were presenting at the New York Produce Show and both of us presented separately and I was presenting and I was using Dubai Chocolate as an example of how trends have gone too far and gotten completely out of hand very quickly. And while I was presenting, said, you know, we'll have reached max Dubai Chocolate when it's in a pasta product. And while I was up there, Mike searched and in fact, there's Dubai Chocolate Pasta. Mike Kostyo (22:36) Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. Hm. Sure enough. Suzy Badaracco (22:55) Yeah. Mike Kostyo (22:59) Of course, of course. ⁓ Suzy Badaracco (23:00) Well, it's... Maeve Webster (23:00) So never underestimate people's ability to jam a trend into every product possible, whether it deserves to be there or not. Mike Kostyo (23:09) To your point, do my chocolate sleeps around? There's no doubt about it. When this way of looking at trends, did this come from, I love that phrase, tracking serial killers to tracking serial bars. Did this way of looking at it come from that background? I guess what is the through line from that background to what you do now? Maeve Webster (23:14) I'm sorry. Suzy Badaracco (23:33) Yeah, it's exactly from that background because the military intelligence and chaos analytics that I practiced way back when as a criminalist. basically think of the food industry as just a giant crime scene, right? So all trends are just crime. So that's all we're doing. So for instance, to do the work, to watch all, instead of watching one crazy serial killer, I'm watching... Mike Kostyo (23:36) Really? Okay. Maeve Webster (23:36) Yeah. Perfect. Perfect. Suzy Badaracco (23:57) hundreds of them, right? All at the same time playing out in the industry. So, know, with a crime scene, you have all these different pieces of evidence that don't, may or not, maybe not related directly towards each other, but they're related through the single lens of the crime. So it trends the same way. You have to look at all the patterns that are surrounding, are causing that trend to come forward. Maeve Webster (23:59) you Mike Kostyo (24:08) Mmm. Suzy Badaracco (24:18) So for instance, to do the work that we do with the analytics that we use, the military and chaos analytics that we have to use, we have to review about 17,600 research reports and news items a week in a five day work week. So we're dealing with mass amounts of data. We're looking at government technologies, clinical health research daily. We're looking at these worldwide. We're looking at consumer. Mike Kostyo (24:38) Mm-hmm. Suzy Badaracco (24:46) research, behavioral research. So we're looking across many, many different parental voices, many patterns that can then coalesce on any one trend and direct it, cause it to be born, cause it to die. So we're looking at much more data than most forecasters are. Usually they're looking at product launches and consumer surveys. Like we're looking way upstream, way upstream. Maeve Webster (25:00) So I really do think that's what I would do. Mike Kostyo (25:04) Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. Suzy Badaracco (25:11) way before those items ever come out. Mike Kostyo (25:14) For that, how do you weight all of those factors? I think it's interesting because we do a lot of that as well. We'll look at what's happening in fashion or in technology or in travel. But part of it is trying to figure out how much of an impact will this really have on the consumer at the end of the day, and then on the product For you, how do you weight all of that information? This is going to have Maeve Webster (25:18) I think it's interesting. Suzy Badaracco (25:24) Yes! Maeve Webster (25:26) Thank you. Mike Kostyo (25:38) an outsized impact on the trend And this one is maybe something to watch, maybe is it going to be quite as impact. Maeve Webster (25:42) Thank Suzy Badaracco (25:46) Yeah, so I don't, we don't really start with what's loud. We start with like, what could change something's trajectory or even cause a new birth? So, and again, that's way upstream, that's parental forces. And so when I say a parent, think of a parent as something no one can control. So government legislation, an election year, hurricanes on the coast, a pandemic. Mike Kostyo (25:49) Mm-hmm. Yeah. Suzy Badaracco (26:11) ⁓ All of these things know you can't control that those are parental forces and that's what we're watching. So If a data point like if a trend is is there or you know, something interesting in the news is happening If it doesn't connect I talked about allies if it doesn't connect to any real like consumer drivers or that You know that social media person is talking about something but they're actually ignorant of those parental forces Maeve Webster (26:17) Yeah. Suzy Badaracco (26:37) that are just going to drown out the one little trend they're talking about. It's usually just noise. So what we're waiting is we look at something that may be the press or hitting social media or whatever, but we're actually looking at the parental forces. Like why is that thing in the news? Why are people paying attention? So we're looking way upstream. And by the way, by the time it hits social media or the news or conference, we thought we, my team has already known about it way before it's ever born or before Mike Kostyo (26:43) Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. Maeve Webster (26:43) So. Suzy Badaracco (27:05) not before it's, but we know about it before it's born. But we know about it before consumers know about it by most before most of industry. So we're already anticipating it's going to hit. So, and like I said, trends can have allies or adversaries. like girlfriends, so again, you want to know if something's hitting or who else is she hooking into? Who else can she associate with? That's why I say whole grains is never going to go away. Right. But avocado toast came and went in about a year. She has no allies. That's how we know she's going to be all right. She'll be fun. We'll definitely hang out with her, maybe to invite her to one party, but not more. And then we're over it and we're out, but grains. my gosh. She's amazing. We're inviting her to every single party we're having forever. Like she's going to change party dresses, but she's always going to come to the party and be fabulous. So we fill in the information by what could this cause of behavior change? Maeve Webster (27:40) Thanks. Suzy Badaracco (27:57) Or is it just a moment of attention? Who benefits from the narrative, right? Think about gluten-free, who benefited from that, who didn't benefit. What pressure does it relieve or create for the consumer? So relevance really comes from context, not volume. So a lot of people will get caught up in what we call media darlings, right? It's a big, think of the corona, right? It was all over the media. Most Americans have never had a corona in their life. it was coming originally out of a bakery that could make 200 a day, right? So it's a media darling. You couldn't produce it. You couldn't get a hold of it. It took Dunkin' Donuts like three years, I think, before it even got into their stores. So you watch, you don't watch the volume. You watch what it's, what its impact could be. Mike Kostyo (28:41) Hmm. Maeve Webster (28:41) Hey, Suzy, is there a parental trend with all the analysis you've been doing? Is there one parental trend that you think is either really interesting or concerning or like if you were to pick one right now that you've been tracking, which one do you think is the most notable? Suzy Badaracco (29:00) There's actually, ⁓ we just did our quarterly report. So there's actually five main parental trends we're tracking right now. Maeve Webster (29:02) You're safe. Suzy Badaracco (29:08) And I'm trying to think of the five, two of them are government. know, one is government here in the US, two is government conflict that's going on right now around the world. Those two are really critical because what they're causing, they're causing fear. And when fear occurs, that completely can upend consumer behavior. So those two are really critical. But the other, the other parental trend that's really significant and has been for a while is the economy. is the other parental trend or the other parent is not a trend is the parent. The other parent is the economy because inflation going into recession, all of that absolutely upends consumer behavior, consumer mindset. So between kind of the government forces and then the economic forces, those are two of the five that are really kind of wreaking a significant havoc right now. Both of them cause fear and then fear has its own set of behaviors it causes. Mike Kostyo (30:05) Is there anything that you think impacts, trends or what's happening in the food industry that you think a consumer might be surprised by? So something that you track all the time that actually has an impact on the food we eat or what we want. And yet a consumer would never think that it's something that you are tracking or would pay attention to or would have any type of correlation. Suzy Badaracco (30:26) consumers would never know to look at government or school shootings or hurricanes on the coast, which could upend supply chains, right? A consumer would never know that you would look at any of that too, that could cause downstream or try to occur. Another one that's a little closer than that they might understand better would be travel trends and pharmaceutical trends. Mike Kostyo (30:30) Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm, mm-hmm, Suzy Badaracco (30:49) because travel, Mike Kostyo (30:49) mm-hmm. Suzy Badaracco (30:50) and those are actually a whole industries, the travel trends, trends coming from the travel industry, trends coming from the pharmaceutical industry, then impact the food industry in two very different ways. But those are, those are another example of like consumers might not put it to, it's not super intuitive until you say it out loud, that pharmaceutical and what they're doing impacts food and then travel, what they're doing impacts the industry as well. So we call them. ⁓ Mike Kostyo (31:02) Mm-hmm. Suzy Badaracco (31:17) when a trend is occurring in a totally different industry, but it bumps up against us and then impacts our industry. Mike Kostyo (31:24) Mm-hmm. Maeve Webster (31:25) Suzy, you and I have talked about this before, this idea of pattern recognition and looking beyond just this is on trend, so therefore, go forth and conquer, but more where are the patterns in order to understand what's happening. As you're talking about these other industries, one that I always find really fascinating, just because I think it's interesting in general, but also how it does foreshadow some food trends is like architectural and interior design. Suzy Badaracco (31:29) Yes. Maeve Webster (31:52) right? And how those trends speak to what consumers are looking for, where their mindset is, where emotionally they're at. And even as we saw it, like for example, in interior design, the shift from Nordic and Japanese simplicity to Bohemian maximalism, right? In interior design is, was the heading, yeah, exactly, came before all of the sensory max, maxing, which is the Suzy Badaracco (32:11) Yes! Maeve Webster (32:18) trend of the year based on the fancy food show, right? So it is important to not get stuck only looking at food trends and looking beyond what's happening in order to get ahead of it, right? And not be as so often happens, taken completely by surprise when it ends up coming to the food industry. Suzy Badaracco (32:38) Exactly like one of the one of the big trends cited for 2026 it with like interior design and stuff is thrifting is like okay what five items should you be looking for at thrift stores whether it's quilts whether but then that translates into nostalgic food nostalgic you know antiques you're looking for quilts it translates into upcycling food scraps in restaurants and in the home it's second-purposing what do you do with Maeve Webster (32:46) this. Suzy Badaracco (33:06) extra pasta water, do you know what I mean? So that filters it. So it's the same trend. It's got a different party dress. She looks different when she shows up in the food industry, but she's the same trend, whether it's thrifting in the store or going doing something in the home or in a restaurant. It's the same trend. just has a different voice, a different little party dress she wears. But yeah, they're not born in a bubble. Maeve Webster (33:28) And even taking that- No, correct, exactly. There is no bubble. the other thing about the thrifting is the idea of deal hunting. Well, not just deal hunting, but surprise and delight, right? Excitement of the find, looking for something unusual and unique. So I think if somebody were to hear thrifting, they immediately go to nostalgia, historic stuff, classic. But- Suzy Badaracco (33:39) Yes! Maeve Webster (33:49) That isn't as much about finding things you're not expecting to find and being excited by the new thing you've never seen before, right? So it's also not looking through these things with your own lens and your own expectations, but taking kind of the whole universe of potential impacts into account. Suzy Badaracco (34:06) Yes, yes. Mike Kostyo (34:07) And so thinking through all of this, one of the questions that I always ask is I think we get into these really interesting conversations about theory and what we do on our side of the industry. But for you, how does this actually ladder down to making a product? Or when a client comes to you and says, hey, we want to work with culinary tides, what does that mean? OK, it's really cool that I see people are thrifting. But what do I actually have to make at the end of the day? What do I put on the shelf or on a menu? So what does that actually look like from the client perspective? Suzy Badaracco (34:44) so clients usually don't. Yeah, no clients usually don't say like, they usually don't say like, what's the next flavor? What they're really asking us usually is like, what's safe to invest in? And what's risky? Is this trend something we should act on now later or never? While it's still mattering two to five years? How do we adapt without breaking what already works? Mike Kostyo (34:44) Just easy questions on the mess. Mm-hmm. Suzy Badaracco (35:09) So our job is not to tell them what to do. Our job is to make sure they don't go off a cliff doing it. We're setting guardrails. So typically a client kind of already has an idea of, we have five directions we want to go in. And so our job is really to lay out the evidence for the five areas to show the client, and then help them decide. Well, which one fits you best? Like long-term, even which one fits you best? Like, by the way, is this a messaging problem? Is this a line extension? Is it just brand new product? Like what is it they're trying to do? But they typically kind of come to you not as a blank slate. They typically kind of already have an idea. like, Hey, what about this plant protein? Let's, what can we do there? Do you know what I mean? And from there you can like guide them. So our job is to guide them with giving them all the guardrails, all the facts. Mike Kostyo (35:53) Mm-hmm. Suzy Badaracco (35:58) So I'll give you a quick example. So we just had a client, we do three different types of workshops. So the new product workshop, they were going, this client was going through a whole, whole new innovation for spring, right? And so they had, when they came to us and we encouraged lots of ideas, they had, it was in this one category, they had 147 individual ideas for, and they needed about 30, right? Mike Kostyo (36:22) you Suzy Badaracco (36:24) So once we took them through the workshop, we do all the work for, do not have to go research this topic. They don't have to do anything like that. We do all that for them in the workshop, but then it comes down to for one hour, we give them here's one hour. Here's everything you need to know about this category you're launching in. And by the way, we took your 147 products or whatever, and we put them through longevity lens, affinity lens, all fixed lenses, meaning like what each one might have a problem. Mike Kostyo (36:24) Yeah. ⁓ Suzy Badaracco (36:51) took them through all these lenses, gave them every, in one hour gave them this and then let them go off by themselves. And in 30 minutes, they went from 147 to 45 products. That's in 30 minutes. And we didn't tell them what, all we did was give them the guardrails. It's like, here's everything. And they're like done. And it was super obvious which 45. And then we went through a second round to get from 45 down to the 30. Mike Kostyo (37:10) You Suzy Badaracco (37:13) And then we do more analysis. ⁓ so yeah, we never told them what to do or which ones to pick because the big thing is the product has to be right for that corporate personality, right? You can have five different products. All of them will work effectively, but the one that they go with has to fit them corporately. Who are we? Who are our clients? Do you know what I mean? That's why we specifically don't ever tell them exactly what to do. help. We, we educate them so they can narrow their own choices confidently and quickly. Maeve Webster (37:44) That is the challenge with a lot of the trend lists and the trend reports and the trend this and the trend that is that the tone is always here's the trend, so you should all jump on it. And every one of us on this podcast and anybody listening and anybody in the industry has seen an operator or brand crowbar a trend into their menu or into their product line that you look at that and you're like, why? Why? It doesn't make sense to me. How can it make sense to your customer or your patron or, you know, whoever? And we've all seen it happen. And that's the problem with a lot of those lists is that it's here's the trend. So, you know, make it work. Suzy Badaracco (38:24) Yes. And the trends list are spoken as if all of those trends are equal and they're not. They have totally different longevity scale. They have different personalities. They interact with other foods and consumer lifestyle and health trends differently. Like they're not equal, their conferences, their presenters here at the top 10, they're all equal. I'm like, oh no, oh no, no, no, They're not all equal. Maeve Webster (38:26) Thank you. Right. Mike Kostyo (38:47) Mm-hmm. Maeve Webster (38:51) Yeah, even over the course of a full year, you can end up getting, you know, from any one source up to 50 or 60 trends. And at that point, it's like, well, then everything's on trend. So everything's on trend. That's great. So whatever you do, you're probably okay. It's probably gonna it's probably gonna be in that list. Mike Kostyo (39:00) Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. Suzy Badaracco (39:06) And here's the thing with one client... Mike Kostyo (39:07) And it's always a one year timeline. Suzy Badaracco (39:08) Yes. And here's the thing with one client, trends one, two, and three might absolutely be a great fit, but for a different client, it's trend six, seven, eight. Do you know what I mean? So that's why I the tender never even it's who's that company? Who's your clientele? Who are you selling to? Do you know, there's several questions you have to ask before you can even say, we should engage this trend or we should sidestep the trend. Mike Kostyo (39:10) go ahead, yeah. Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. Maeve Webster (39:19) Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. Suzy Badaracco (39:36) We've had clients who absolutely did not go into plant protein like the phone meat at all and their meat companies and they're like, nope. And they made a killing by not going into that trend. made a huge amount of money by sidestepping that trend and their suppliers are like, Mike Kostyo (39:51) I think one of the things that always makes me crazy is the one-year timeline for it. It's a completely arbitrary, okay, it's a new year, we got to come up with our list of 10 to 12 new trends. It doesn't mean the things that we were talking about a year ago are suddenly passe or not applicable. We do it over and over and over. To Mae's point, at this point, we're doing the mid-year trends list and the quarterly trends list. You have companies coming up with 50 to 60 trends on an annual basis, in a five-year timeline. Are there really 500 trends that are relevant in that time? It's ridiculous. Yes. ⁓ Suzy Badaracco (40:15) Yes. Maeve Webster (40:26) And at that point, is any trend relevant? If there were 500 of them, that's pretty much everything. That's it. It's fashion at this point. I feel like every time I look at a fashion trend list, they Suzy Badaracco (40:27) Yes. Maeve Webster (40:38) come out every single day at this point. And by the time you read a month of them, you're like, well, everything's on trend. Is there anything not on trend? Tell me what's not on trend. That might be easier, right? Tell me what's definitely I shouldn't be doing. Mike Kostyo (40:40) Mm-hmm. Suzy Badaracco (40:50) And we really look at. Mike Kostyo (40:50) Well, I think that's what's so funny. Suzy Badaracco (40:52) Look ahead. Mike Kostyo (40:53) I was just going to say, I think that's what's so funny. Everybody's latched on to the Pantone color of the year thing. Now you see all of the paint brands and so every color at this point, Pantone is what the cloud kind of off white color. One of them has a blue color, one of them, one, who do you trust? Two, to your point, Maeve, is it every color? Suzy Badaracco (41:05) Yes, it's yes. And let's talk about Pantone for a split second. Okay, so yeah. Oh my God. So it's Cloud Dancer is the Pantone color of the year. By the way, we track all the paint companies and all the, everyone. So we have lists and lists of all the different colors. And so when you say there's 500, there are 500, but what we do is we're looking at, we're thinking of it kind of waves in the ocean, right? So we're looking, we're not looking at a single seashell, meaning one color. Mike Kostyo (41:16) Yeah, I would love to. That's it, Dancer. Suzy Badaracco (41:39) we're looking at the entire weight. Like what is the pattern of the 500 telling us? And it's actually really depressing what the pattern is saying, honestly, because, okay, I'll put it this way. When you start going to kind of muted earth tones, you should probably panic because we're absolutely headed into recession. And so what is this year? It's all muted earth tones. So Cloud Dancer, but Cloud Dancer in a particular, has a problem. And Pantone, I don't think clearly anticipated the problem it caused for itself. So what Pantone is saying with Cloud Dancer, which is like basically an off-white, they're saying, it's a calming influence, serenity, it's a fresh start, but because of the political climate, there's a whole nother voice going, this is about white nationalism. And Pantone's like, what now? What? What? What? Maeve Webster (42:31) That's right. Mike Kostyo (42:32) ⁓ I do. Yeah, I remember that conversation happening when it came out. Suzy Badaracco (42:35) Pantone not predict that was going to happen? How did Pantone not get that that would could happen with the internet? Do you know what I'm saying? Like that was not Pantone's intention. I'm sure. It, it so it back. Yeah, so Pantone like Maeve Webster (42:46) I'm sure. Yes, I'm sure it had nothing to do with that at all. Mike Kostyo (42:50) actually brings up a good Suzy Badaracco (42:51) Go ahead. Mike Kostyo (42:52) That brings up a good question, which is, in this day and age where it's outrage culture and almost anything that you put on social media, people are going to come after you. I mean, we saw with Cracker Barrel and the bot situation and everybody coming after them. I mean, is there an element to, like, you're going to have a pushback no matter what you put out there? I mean, it's just kind of our outrage culture and just what you have to prepare for constantly no matter what you do? Suzy Badaracco (43:07) Yes. Yes, you kind of do. I mean, an extent, like so another one of our workshops is actually, it's a military workshop, but it's called Red Selling and it's a strategy workshop. But the entire workshop is set up to poke holes in your strategic planning for like the next five, 10 years. It's just to say, okay, let me tell you, if you do that, five things could happen. How are you going to prep for those five things? Do know what I mean? So the entire workshop is built around, you think you have a great sound strategy, but let's just take a look at what social media can do to it or what a different company can do to it. What if there is a pandemic, what would that do to your plan? Do you know what I mean? So military wise, have a way to anticipate that. So I'm not kidding when I said about Pantone, how did they not see that coming? Like that. completely obvious if you step back and look at the political scene right now, right? Someone's going to say that. And Pantone doesn't really have, clearly we're not prepared for it because they don't have a fallback. all they keep saying is, well, no, it's about refresh and restart. I'm like, yeah, that also works with the whole political scene in a negative way. Do you know what I mean? So little Pantone is caught up and they don't really have a way to... speak about their pure intention without someone else attacking again through a different lens. it's really like, but yeah, no, they didn't see that coming. Cracker Barrel didn't see it coming. How did Cracker Barrel not see that coming? Again, it's, and it's not even hindsight, it's foresight. Like the second Cracker Barrel made the move, we were like, oh honey, yeah, that's not gonna go well. The second they did, we're like, oh no, no, no, no. And it's hard to backtrack from that. So unfortunately, you kind of do have to look at it from a different lens and say, well, what could potentially happen with this? Mike Kostyo (44:58) When- You brought up the pandemic, I think is one thing that has come up so often when we talk about future forecasting is how do you prepare for those crazy, I mean, maybe you'll argue that they didn't come out of nowhere, but these really destabilizing forces that kind of just topple everything on their heads. Can you prepare for that? Is that something that businesses can and should do? And is there anything that you're watching? Maeve Webster (45:03) And then. Mike Kostyo (45:29) on the same kind of scale as the pandemic that we should be prepared for. Suzy Badaracco (45:36) Yeah, you absolutely can prepare for it. you predict disruption again by watching parents. No other forecaster watches parents that we're aware of except us, but we are trained on how to watch the parents. So we're not watching, the trend is the child. The trend comes later. We're watching the parents. So when the child, the trend shows up, we're like that told you so. That's the position we work off of in our company. So. For instance, with the pandemic, we already watched it out of China as far as like September to December 2019, we already knew it was spreading worldwide. So by December 2019, remember we weren't shut down till March of 2020, right? As a country. December 2019, we had alerted all of our clients and they had a four month lead on everybody else in the country, it seemed. So they changed their pipelines, they changed their marketing, they changed their suppliers. They had four months run time to do this and then the country shut down and everybody was shocked. Our clients already knew about it because we were tracking the parents of a pandemic months before it ever shut down the country. So you absolutely can by watching parental forces and the parents see some of these things coming. nothing, again, nothing happens in a vacuum. Like the pandemic was shaping up for months and months and months before it ever shut down the country. You could see it if you watch worldwide what was happening with World Health Organization, China, everything else, we could see that we knew what was happening. So nothing just suddenly materializes out of nowhere. If it does, then you have absolutely no idea what was going on. The only way you're blindsided is because you didn't know what to watch for or who to be keeping your eye on. Mike Kostyo (47:15) One, it's the beginning of the year, which is partly why we wanted to talk to you. Is there anything, and again, on the arbitrary timeline of an annual trend list, but we have seen a bunch of the trend forecasts and lists come out. Is there anything that you're seeing that you think is something that should be on everybody's radar, or is there anybody that you think is really calling it and has done a good job? What should be in our focus for 2026? Suzy Badaracco (47:16) Thank Maeve Webster (47:36) Thank Suzy Badaracco (47:40) So can we reverse it for a sec? Can I tell you like what many are talking about, but we are like, ⁓ rolling our eyes. We're like, yeah, that's never gonna happen. That's never gonna happen. And again, you might roll your eyes at me when I say this, but the one thing that is, we absolutely think is still way off base is comfort food. Maeve Webster (47:41) Okay. Mike Kostyo (47:43) Sure. Oh, even better. Well, yes, we'd love that. Yeah. Mm hmm. Maeve Webster (47:49) Yeah, sure love that Suzy Badaracco (48:01) Like pure, like, and when I say comfort food, okay, so there's a difference between comfort food, nostalgia and nostalgia. So comfort food for us, comfort food is children's food. And it could be different, you know, depending on what household you grew up in, but it's, it's very simplistic, one dimensional food. So hot dogs, hamburgers, simple cheese, pizza, pepperoni pizza, macaroni and cheese. So it's children's food is comfort food. Maeve Webster (48:25) it's Suzy Badaracco (48:27) Nostalgia is different and nostalgia was here this year, it's going to be here next year. Nostalgia is something where you tie a food to a time and place in history. So it has much deeper meaning. It can still be comforting. It's familiar. It might be from, but it's not children's food. It's not something only children need, right? It could be a beverage. It could be a cocktail. It could be a certain cake, right? But you tie it to a time and place in history. So it could be a location worldwide. It could be our country. It could be a region. or but it could be a 1960s, it could be a certain 1990s cocktail. It could be something like that. So nostalgia has more relevance and the reason comfort food we think is not coming back, at least this year, there are absolutely no consumer drivers for it whatsoever. If anything, consumers still want, maybe they want familiar, they like nostalgia, they like nostalgia, which takes nostalgia, it on its head, gives it a twist. But what they're not going back to is children's food. And part of the reason is because of the pandemics of long-term effect. They now view new food or beverages or a new restaurant or a different cuisine. That is a psychological escape from everything that's coming down on our heads. And what they desperately need last year, this year is a moment of peace, a moment of excitement, a moment of new, just as a break. Maeve Webster (49:21) Thank with them. Suzy Badaracco (49:48) from everything they can't control. And one thing they control is, I'm gonna order something new. I'm gonna make something new. That gives me control. Comfort food does not give you any of that. It doesn't give you psychological peace. It doesn't give you control back. It doesn't solve any of those issues that psychologically are the drivers right now for consumers. So consumers don't want it. There's no research that shows they're like, yep, we want comfort food. want nostalgia, new style to other things, but they absolutely are not saying, yep, we want plain macaroni and cheese. Nobody's saying that. So companies that are doing that are morons, honestly, because they're not watching what's going on. Really? Do you know what I'm saying? Like, even if you take, like, regional French toast, it is not comfort food. Maeve Webster (50:18) Thanks. Mike Kostyo (50:26) Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. Maeve Webster (50:28) think often. Yeah, I think often that's the easy way out though with innovation. I think it's not so much that they are morons. I mean, they might be. But you know, think more to the point, it's the easy out for innovation. And I think that's true for restaurants. I think that's true. I think that's true for trend watchers. I think it's true for manufacturers to say that comfort is in is an easy out. I think it's just the easier thing to say. It's the easier thing to do. Mike Kostyo (50:38) Mm-hmm. ⁓ Maeve Webster (50:59) We know how to do it. Everybody knows what it is. And I think unfortunately that's been the case for the past six, seven, probably even 10 years. The more we default to comfort other than the year or two of the actual pandemic, I think it's just easy, which is a problem. Suzy Badaracco (51:14) Well, and when they seek out, but if you actually watch many times what they're doing, they may be saying comfort, but they're actually executing nostalgia, right? Like even Kraft macaroni and cheese is not coming out with macaroni and cheese. It's coming out with like Cajun macaroni and cheese. Do you know what I mean? It's not even doing its own comfort food. It's doing a little more innovation, a little more like let's put. Maeve Webster (51:24) Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. Suzy Badaracco (51:40) global flavors with the macaroni, which is not comfort. So even sometimes companies are saying comfort food, what they're actually executing is nostalgia or do you know what I mean? It's not traditional, historic comfort food from anywhere in the US. So sometimes the term I think is even misused, but consumers just say comfort to them, they will run screaming. Maeve Webster (51:59) Mm-hmm. Suzy Badaracco (52:02) They're more likely to want, you know, familiar, that's a different word, familiar, but they're not going to go back to, you know, macaroni and cheese and just plain hot dogs. And what COVID did was it raised forever. It raised our fear set point. So our fear set point is something that would disrupt us and send us to pizza, wouldn't be down here. COVID completely reset it to way up here. So it takes a lot more to jar us and force us back to total comfort food. And so we're a lot more resilient. We're like, meh, inflation. I came through two years of a pandemic. I got this. You know, I'm upset, I'm stressed, I may be depressed, but I'm still looking for new foods. I'm still looking for where's that new restaurant. If I'm gonna go out, I'm gonna treat myself. I'm gonna have one in experience. So they're using restaurants in particular as an escape in a healthy way, right? A moment. like with friends, family, et cetera, but they're not turning towards simplistic food to get that. They're turning towards experiences, et cetera, but they may be, familiar is common, but that's not the same as traditional comfort food. Maeve Webster (53:09) Yeah, agreed. Suzy Badaracco (53:09) So I wouldn't address nakedness. Mike Kostyo (53:10) I want to make sure that we have time to get to the five questions, but is there anything that we haven't covered? Any of those questions that you want to speak to or you wish we had asked? Suzy Badaracco (53:21) one thing I always like to point out is like, if people are looking at like social media, or, you know, something is, you know, maybe still in a restaurant. And what we always say about social media, like, let's say some of the social media personalities, for instance, they never ever started trend. Maeve Webster (53:37) Thank Suzy Badaracco (53:38) However, people think they do, social media people even think they, yeah, I started that trend. They don't. What they're doing is they're reacting to something that's already been born and then they're yapping about it, right? So they usually don't have expertise in whatever it is they're talking about. They have a big mouth and a big following. So social media influencers... Maeve Webster (53:40) Thank Thank you. Suzy Badaracco (53:58) They don't birth a trend. don't cause a trend to be born. What they really are is they're cheerleaders or bullies to a trend. So they can affect the trajectory of a trend. can affect the longevity of a trend, but they don't ever start a trend. So you have to be like really careful. If something's in the social media, you have to, again, look at the parents and say, well, it's just, just a media darling. It's being propped up or, or is this really something that is definitely has like a long life ahead of it. Mike Kostyo (54:27) I I remember there was a woman years ago who claimed that she started the kale trend. I don't know if you remember her. That was her whole claim to fame that she started the kale trend. When you looked, course, the- ⁓ Right, seriously. Yeah. Maeve Webster (54:37) I think there are a lot of people who would not want to take ownership of that. There are plenty of people who would not hanker for that trend. Kale growers would not be among them, but still. Suzy Badaracco (54:42) You got this, girl! Mike Kostyo (54:47) But it was, it was nonsense. When you looked at the data, was nonsense. She was trying to sell her services as an influencer and say that she could make your product or what you were growing become the next cool thing. so we always end every episode with our five questions. So the first question is, what is your hospitality or just food industry or even just in general pet peeve? Suzy Badaracco (55:09) Okay, this is a small one, but it should still be criminal. Okay, underdone potatoes. I think it's undefendable. Like there's nothing worse when your little mouth is expecting one texture and you get a crunch out of something that should not be crunchy. So yeah, that's why I'm like, how can you not cook it straight through? Like what is going on? Mike Kostyo (55:16) Mmm. Maeve Webster (55:17) ⁓ yeah, well. Mike Kostyo (55:35) Yes. Even just hearing that, yeah. It's so unappetizing sounding. And we have plenty of potatoes out there. Yes, you can't get away with undercooking them. Suzy Badaracco (55:36) small but important. Maeve Webster (55:40) Yeah. ⁓ Suzy Badaracco (55:40) Yeah, I can't. Maeve Webster (55:45) If you're supposed to be cooking food, cook it correctly. I mean, this is like, it's a fairly low bar for a restaurant. If you've got something on your menu, make sure it's cooked correctly. Suzy Badaracco (55:45) No. Thank you. Mike Kostyo (55:54) Although Suzy Badaracco (55:54) it's just like, it doesn't look that bad. Yes. Mike Kostyo (55:54) that's my pasta, I cannot stand mushy overdone pasta. But you hear so many restaurants that say when we do it al dente, everybody complains and sends it back. What is something that you've changed your mind about? Maeve Webster (56:01) ⁓ yeah, again! Suzy Badaracco (56:09) Yes. Maeve Webster (56:10) Thank Mike Kostyo (56:13) It can be industry related or just something even beyond the industry. Suzy Badaracco (56:16) Okay, so a million years ago, I think was with a few others who I used to believe kind of like being early to the trend was the goal. But It's really not that at all. It's it's now it's timing and fit matters more than novelty like being the first So you don't what I tell clients is because we have very conservative clients, you know We have very with them. We have like, you know, Jack rabbit clients, right? We're like that other all over the place So you don't have to be the first you just have to do it better than everybody else Mike Kostyo (56:50) Agreed, absolutely, 100%. Yeah. What is one book, TV show, movie, or product that you would recommend? Maeve Webster (56:53) Thank Suzy Badaracco (56:57) I have just a couple. Okay, a book. So it's actually a series. She's got like 17, but I just discovered them. It's so cute. It's Lucy Burdette. And it's a Key West food critic mystery series. And the first book is Appetite for Murder. So she literally is it's in Key West, and I'm a Florida girl. She's setting Key West and she's a food critic, right? So and it's very first person. So it's really fun to read. Maeve Webster (57:05) It's. Mike Kostyo (57:10) Huh. Maeve Webster (57:11) Thank you. Suzy Badaracco (57:22) but every single book there's a murder and she somehow ends up being in the middle of it. It's like so, it's so fun, but it's very food oriented because it's all talking food and restaurant the entire time. So it's for me, it's this perfect combination of like, know, culinary and killing. It's fabulous. So, Appetite for Murderers. Of course, it's like 17 books and it's on Audible. So I listen to them because I'm too lazy to read. Maeve Webster (57:39) you Suzy Badaracco (57:48) And then for TV, there's two, one of them, and both of these are right, like you have to find them because they're not right now active. One of them is Mindhunter out of Netflix. And we're waiting for the third season, but it's set in the 90s. It's Holden Ford and Bill Trench and Dr. Wendy Carr. And they're the originators in the seventies who coined serial killers. And they went through their whole series of ⁓ interviewing serial killers, but they're the ones that coined that term and started the whole. Maeve Webster (57:58) So that was a great show. Suzy Badaracco (58:17) like that caused criminal science to be married with psychology. And that so that whole series is really, it's two seasons really interesting. The other one is lie to me. And that's actually, yeah, yes. Maeve Webster (58:27) Look, that Mindhunter book was amazing. Mike Kostyo (58:30) They keep talking about bringing it back for a third season and I don't know if it's ever going to happen, but yeah. Suzy Badaracco (58:34) Yes, I know it's been a couple years, but it's still you can find it on Netflix. And the other one is Lie to Me, which went four seasons. And then that was the end of that. But that's also based on the research of the researcher who actually first studied micro expressions and pattern recognition in humans. So Lie to Me is a really, really fun series about the lightning group. And they try to help corporations, they help crimes, they help but it's with lie detection, like physical lie detection of pattern recognition in the human, which, so I love that series too. Mike Kostyo (59:07) Good ones. I've not watched Light of Me, so I have to add it to the list. So a question for you from our last guest, Chef Rosalind Darling. She asks, what legacy do you want to leave for the next generation? Maeve Webster (59:10) No, yeah, me neither. Suzy Badaracco (59:11) I love that. the next generation, I want them less impressed by noise and more confident in their own judgment. So if I could help even a few people try pattern recognition over hype, I would just call that a win. And that could be relationships too, do you know what I'm saying? Like don't listen to everything that's telling you, like what are they doing? That's the pattern you need to kind of be watching. Maeve Webster (59:27) It's a great one. Mike Kostyo (59:28) Mm-hmm Mm-mm. Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. Absolutely. Mm-hmm. Suzy Badaracco (59:43) or trust your own judge. So it's food, it could be personal. You could apply that to any industry or your own life. Mike Kostyo (59:49) Absolutely. We actually asked a question like that in our 2026 consumer needs survey. And it was, how confident do you feel in your food decisions? I forget the percent. I think it was like 42 or 45 % of Gen Z said they felt confident. And then of course that, but still, yeah. mean, it wasn't even half that generation that felt confident. And then, which we don't know who the next guest is going to be. Maeve Webster (1:00:02) Yeah. So was higher than we thought, but not as high as it should be. I mean, yeah, right. Suzy Badaracco (1:00:10) Yeah. Mike Kostyo (1:00:14) What question would you like us to ask the next guest? Suzy Badaracco (1:00:17) Okay. You're all sitting down. Okay. My question is what's something the industry is clinging to that no longer serves consumers and why is it so hard to let go of it? Maeve Webster (1:00:29) Love that question. Chef's kiss, great way to end. Mike Kostyo (1:00:31) Excellent question. Can't wait to have that. ⁓ Perfect. Seriously, really, yes. Well, thank you so much, Susie. We're at the hour. Thank you so much. We have to have you back on. We can have this conversation. We always say this at the end of an episode for another hour, but we really could this time. But thank you so much for being on. Is there anything that you want to plug your website, your social media, anything like that? Maeve Webster (1:00:37) Over. Suzy Badaracco (1:00:53) you can find, I'm annoying, you can find ⁓ under either Culinary Tides or Suzy Badaraka, you can find this on YouTube, Instagram, and pretty much daily on LinkedIn also. Mike Kostyo (1:01:04) Perfect. Well, thank you so much for being on the show and hopefully we'll have you back. Thanks, Susie. Maeve Webster (1:01:07) Thanks, Susie. Suzy Badaracco (1:01:09) Yeah. Thanks.