1 01:00:00,000 --> 01:00:01,083 Welcome back to the show. 2 01:00:01,500 --> 01:00:03,583 Today we have with us Steve Bauman, 3 01:00:03,791 --> 01:00:06,083 who created a brand new package. 4 01:00:07,583 --> 01:00:09,583 It's called IMAP Engine, 5 01:00:10,000 --> 01:00:11,750 which is deep into the 6 01:00:11,750 --> 01:00:13,250 abyss of email, correct? 7 01:00:15,458 --> 01:00:15,500 (laughs) 8 01:00:15,958 --> 01:00:17,333 So tell us, if you don't mind, 9 01:00:17,333 --> 01:00:18,166 just tell us a little 10 01:00:18,166 --> 01:00:19,750 bit about IMAP Engine 11 01:00:19,750 --> 01:00:21,125 and how this got 12 01:00:21,125 --> 01:00:22,666 started, why you created it, 13 01:00:22,666 --> 01:00:24,375 and sort of the backstory on it. 14 01:00:25,166 --> 01:00:27,291 Yeah, yeah, so I have a 15 01:00:27,291 --> 01:00:28,250 side project right now, 16 01:00:28,958 --> 01:00:29,791 not product promoting, 17 01:00:29,791 --> 01:00:31,041 but it's called SpamWise, 18 01:00:31,041 --> 01:00:32,416 and it's an email-based service. 19 01:00:32,791 --> 01:00:35,500 And so users can sign up 20 01:00:35,500 --> 01:00:37,500 and they can attach 21 01:00:37,500 --> 01:00:39,375 their email to my service, 22 01:00:39,375 --> 01:00:41,541 and I need to process incoming emails, 23 01:00:41,541 --> 01:00:42,625 and I had to do it through IMAP. 24 01:00:43,666 --> 01:00:45,541 And so I did what kind of 25 01:00:45,541 --> 01:00:47,958 any kind of PHP developer does 26 01:00:47,958 --> 01:00:48,541 when they have to 27 01:00:48,541 --> 01:00:50,125 access some kind of protocol 28 01:00:50,416 --> 01:00:52,000 or something that 29 01:00:52,000 --> 01:00:53,000 appears super complicated, 30 01:00:53,166 --> 01:00:54,000 and they go, "I wonder if there's a 31 01:00:54,000 --> 01:00:54,791 package for this," right? 32 01:00:55,666 --> 01:00:57,375 And so I went searching, 33 01:00:57,500 --> 01:01:00,208 and I went and found what I thought 34 01:01:00,208 --> 01:01:01,583 was kind of the best at the time, 35 01:01:02,791 --> 01:01:05,375 and I installed that, and over, 36 01:01:06,083 --> 01:01:06,916 I started, after I 37 01:01:06,916 --> 01:01:07,833 started working with that, 38 01:01:08,166 --> 01:01:08,791 once you start working 39 01:01:08,791 --> 01:01:09,500 with this kind of stuff, 40 01:01:09,500 --> 01:01:10,375 you start noticing issues. 41 01:01:10,625 --> 01:01:13,583 You're like, "Oh, I bet I could fix this 42 01:01:13,583 --> 01:01:14,166 "or I could make this 43 01:01:14,166 --> 01:01:16,166 better in some certain ways," 44 01:01:16,166 --> 01:01:18,041 and once you start getting a handle 45 01:01:18,166 --> 01:01:20,041 of how it works and such. 46 01:01:21,125 --> 01:01:23,791 And I started getting a lot of issues 47 01:01:24,166 --> 01:01:25,375 with the package that it shows, 48 01:01:26,500 --> 01:01:28,250 and I was kind of 49 01:01:28,250 --> 01:01:30,416 just, I ended up forking it 50 01:01:30,541 --> 01:01:32,416 and rebuilding it from scratch, 51 01:01:32,750 --> 01:01:35,458 and that ended up just being a nightmare 52 01:01:35,583 --> 01:01:36,916 because it was so 53 01:01:36,916 --> 01:01:39,041 convoluted and complicated. 54 01:01:39,041 --> 01:01:39,833 I'm like, "There's no way 55 01:01:39,833 --> 01:01:42,333 that it's this complicated. 56 01:01:42,916 --> 01:01:44,041 "It can't be true that it 57 01:01:44,041 --> 01:01:45,166 has to be this complicated 58 01:01:45,166 --> 01:01:46,125 "to work with this protocol. 59 01:01:46,333 --> 01:01:46,833 "There's no way." 60 01:01:47,458 --> 01:01:49,541 And so I was like, "You know what? 61 01:01:49,541 --> 01:01:51,916 "I'm gonna dive into the RFC. 62 01:01:52,375 --> 01:01:54,166 "I'm gonna read the whole RFC 63 01:01:54,458 --> 01:01:56,208 "and see why this is so complicated." 64 01:01:56,708 --> 01:01:58,916 Because I was also, because when I was 65 01:01:58,916 --> 01:01:59,791 having these issues, 66 01:01:59,791 --> 01:02:00,458 I was like, "Okay, maybe 67 01:02:00,458 --> 01:02:01,083 there's another package 68 01:02:01,083 --> 01:02:01,750 "that I could use." 69 01:02:02,083 --> 01:02:03,125 I started looking around, I'm like, 70 01:02:03,791 --> 01:02:04,458 "I'm looking in the 71 01:02:04,458 --> 01:02:05,875 source of these packages." 72 01:02:05,875 --> 01:02:07,500 I'm like, "Why does 73 01:02:07,500 --> 01:02:08,541 this look so complicated?" 74 01:02:09,333 --> 01:02:10,458 I'm like, "I'm having a hard time 75 01:02:10,458 --> 01:02:11,250 understanding this." 76 01:02:12,041 --> 01:02:13,208 And so, and yeah, so I 77 01:02:13,208 --> 01:02:14,541 just dove into the RFC. 78 01:02:14,791 --> 01:02:15,375 I'm like, "I'm gonna 79 01:02:15,375 --> 01:02:16,708 just take what I know 80 01:02:16,708 --> 01:02:17,583 "and try to just 81 01:02:17,583 --> 01:02:19,041 build from the ground up, 82 01:02:19,333 --> 01:02:21,125 "like connect with the stream, 83 01:02:21,375 --> 01:02:25,000 "read the stream character by character 84 01:02:25,125 --> 01:02:25,875 "and create a 85 01:02:25,875 --> 01:02:27,333 tokenizer and create a parser 86 01:02:27,958 --> 01:02:28,791 "and all this stuff." 87 01:02:29,083 --> 01:02:30,250 And eventually I got 88 01:02:30,250 --> 01:02:31,208 to a point, I'm like, 89 01:02:31,208 --> 01:02:33,000 "Oh, okay, it's not 90 01:02:33,000 --> 01:02:35,041 actually this difficult. 91 01:02:35,291 --> 01:02:36,500 "I've just been reading 92 01:02:36,500 --> 01:02:38,208 convoluted and difficult solutions 93 01:02:38,375 --> 01:02:40,000 "and I could just make it simpler." 94 01:02:41,708 --> 01:02:42,333 That's awesome. 95 01:02:44,041 --> 01:02:45,541 Speaking of reading the 96 01:02:45,541 --> 01:02:48,458 RFC, do you enjoy that? 97 01:02:48,458 --> 01:02:49,791 Is that like a good hobby 98 01:02:49,791 --> 01:02:51,083 that you have on the side? 99 01:02:51,125 --> 01:02:53,583 That's like the driest read 100 01:02:53,583 --> 01:02:54,666 you'll ever find in your life. 101 01:02:54,666 --> 01:02:56,125 Yeah, no, I didn't like it at all. 102 01:02:56,583 --> 01:03:00,083 It was so painful and it was 103 01:03:00,083 --> 01:03:01,500 born out of the frustration. 104 01:03:01,791 --> 01:03:03,041 I think a lot of other 105 01:03:03,041 --> 01:03:04,041 developers make feels that, 106 01:03:04,333 --> 01:03:05,625 you know, I'm like, "You 107 01:03:05,625 --> 01:03:06,500 know what, I'm gonna do this 108 01:03:06,500 --> 01:03:07,875 "and I'm gonna grind through it 109 01:03:08,083 --> 01:03:09,333 "'cause I don't want 110 01:03:09,333 --> 01:03:11,000 anyone, if I'm gonna do this, 111 01:03:11,000 --> 01:03:12,291 "I don't want anyone to have to do, 112 01:03:12,500 --> 01:03:14,416 "to read an RFC, this RFC again 113 01:03:14,416 --> 01:03:17,541 "and I want to never have to have 114 01:03:17,541 --> 01:03:19,041 "other developers experience this pain." 115 01:03:19,625 --> 01:03:22,125 And so that was a motivation for it. 116 01:03:22,125 --> 01:03:23,125 I'm like, "I'm gonna sit there, 117 01:03:23,125 --> 01:03:24,125 "I'm gonna do this every night 118 01:03:24,125 --> 01:03:25,083 "and I'm gonna finish it 119 01:03:25,083 --> 01:03:26,083 and it's gonna be beautiful." 120 01:03:27,083 --> 01:03:27,750 (laughing) 121 01:03:28,666 --> 01:03:29,125 That's awesome. 122 01:03:30,541 --> 01:03:31,791 Well, I guess that's what 123 01:03:31,791 --> 01:03:33,125 relates me into, you know, 124 01:03:34,125 --> 01:03:35,250 what was your sort of 125 01:03:35,250 --> 01:03:36,125 the biggest challenges 126 01:03:36,125 --> 01:03:37,125 while reading this? 127 01:03:38,791 --> 01:03:39,833 Reading the RFC itself 128 01:03:39,833 --> 01:03:41,250 or was there any code thing 129 01:03:41,250 --> 01:03:42,416 that was like super hard or? 130 01:03:43,125 --> 01:03:45,625 Yeah, definitely the 131 01:03:45,625 --> 01:03:47,958 parser and the tokenizer 132 01:03:48,083 --> 01:03:49,791 the trickiest thing for sure. 133 01:03:50,625 --> 01:03:52,833 I use a lot of back and forth, 134 01:03:53,458 --> 01:03:54,625 like rubber ducking with 135 01:03:54,625 --> 01:03:56,583 chat GPT and various models 136 01:03:56,583 --> 01:03:58,041 and stuff, just trying to figure out 137 01:03:58,791 --> 01:04:01,291 how to properly parse some pieces 138 01:04:01,583 --> 01:04:02,250 and what the proper 139 01:04:02,250 --> 01:04:04,208 format was of some responses 140 01:04:04,416 --> 01:04:07,208 and error codes and all that. 141 01:04:07,916 --> 01:04:10,125 It's definitely, it 142 01:04:10,125 --> 01:04:11,833 was tricky to nail down 143 01:04:11,833 --> 01:04:14,708 and it took two weeks to kind of really, 144 01:04:15,000 --> 01:04:15,916 two weeks every night just 145 01:04:15,916 --> 01:04:17,625 kind of really wrestling with it, 146 01:04:17,791 --> 01:04:19,583 nailing it, writing tests for it 147 01:04:19,875 --> 01:04:22,541 and keep iterating and iterating on it. 148 01:04:23,166 --> 01:04:25,416 And I'm not typically one to write 149 01:04:25,416 --> 01:04:26,875 tokenizers and parsers. 150 01:04:27,083 --> 01:04:29,458 Like I rarely ever do that, 151 01:04:29,458 --> 01:04:30,791 that's super in the weeds, right? 152 01:04:30,791 --> 01:04:32,000 Like talking and listening 153 01:04:32,000 --> 01:04:33,333 to a stream back and forth 154 01:04:33,333 --> 01:04:37,500 is super like low level, which is 155 01:04:37,500 --> 01:04:38,166 something I don't do. 156 01:04:38,500 --> 01:04:39,791 And that was definitely the hardest. 157 01:04:42,000 --> 01:04:42,291 Gotcha. 158 01:04:45,416 --> 01:04:47,583 I guess one of the 159 01:04:47,583 --> 01:04:48,625 question that I see come, 160 01:04:49,583 --> 01:04:51,208 that I've seen come up a lot 161 01:04:51,208 --> 01:04:54,333 is how does this package differ 162 01:04:54,500 --> 01:04:57,625 from like the native PHP IMAP function, 163 01:04:57,958 --> 01:05:00,166 from back in the day? 164 01:05:00,166 --> 01:05:01,416 I mean, that thing was probably created 165 01:05:01,416 --> 01:05:02,625 in the early 90s, I'm guessing. 166 01:05:03,541 --> 01:05:04,083 Yeah, yeah. 167 01:05:04,750 --> 01:05:06,708 And I probably would 168 01:05:06,708 --> 01:05:08,375 have leaned into using it 169 01:05:09,416 --> 01:05:11,708 if the methods or the 170 01:05:11,708 --> 01:05:14,000 extension was like available easily, 171 01:05:14,000 --> 01:05:16,875 but right now the IMAP extension 172 01:05:17,041 --> 01:05:18,916 doesn't get shipped with PHP by default. 173 01:05:18,916 --> 01:05:19,333 So you can't just 174 01:05:19,333 --> 01:05:22,083 toggle it on the INAML file. 175 01:05:22,541 --> 01:05:23,000 And so you have to 176 01:05:23,000 --> 01:05:25,791 actually like compile PHP with it, 177 01:05:25,791 --> 01:05:27,041 which is its own process. 178 01:05:27,041 --> 01:05:29,416 And it's all like complex and convoluted. 179 01:05:30,375 --> 01:05:31,750 And the package that I 180 01:05:31,750 --> 01:05:33,000 was using at the time 181 01:05:33,500 --> 01:05:36,375 was just using a raw stream to do it. 182 01:05:36,375 --> 01:05:37,625 And its feature was like, 183 01:05:37,708 --> 01:05:38,250 oh, you don't have to 184 01:05:38,250 --> 01:05:39,583 have the extension for it. 185 01:05:40,083 --> 01:05:41,000 And I know the pain of 186 01:05:41,000 --> 01:05:42,291 having to like install 187 01:05:42,291 --> 01:05:43,500 the IMAP extension too, 188 01:05:43,500 --> 01:05:44,625 because I tried that at the very 189 01:05:44,625 --> 01:05:46,000 beginning of this product 190 01:05:46,000 --> 01:05:46,666 that I was building. 191 01:05:47,250 --> 01:05:48,208 And that was difficult. 192 01:05:49,333 --> 01:05:51,583 And one of the other primary things 193 01:05:51,708 --> 01:05:52,833 that the IMAP extension 194 01:05:52,833 --> 01:05:55,291 doesn't have is called idle, 195 01:05:55,958 --> 01:05:57,583 which is basically it opens 196 01:05:57,583 --> 01:05:59,291 up a stream and keeps it open 197 01:05:59,500 --> 01:06:01,416 and receives notifications 198 01:06:01,416 --> 01:06:02,750 of when new emails come in. 199 01:06:03,208 --> 01:06:03,666 And so it basically 200 01:06:03,666 --> 01:06:05,833 allows you to just get alerted 201 01:06:06,041 --> 01:06:07,833 or pinged as soon as emails arrive, 202 01:06:08,083 --> 01:06:09,458 and you can immediately process them 203 01:06:09,458 --> 01:06:10,500 or do something with them. 204 01:06:10,833 --> 01:06:13,250 Versus if you're working with like POP3, 205 01:06:13,250 --> 01:06:14,833 like in other email protocol, 206 01:06:14,833 --> 01:06:15,916 you have to introduce polling. 207 01:06:16,458 --> 01:06:16,833 So you're just 208 01:06:16,833 --> 01:06:18,833 constantly like asking the inbox 209 01:06:18,833 --> 01:06:19,416 if you have new 210 01:06:19,416 --> 01:06:21,375 emails every 15, 20 minutes 211 01:06:21,375 --> 01:06:22,291 or whatever interval. 212 01:06:23,083 --> 01:06:23,791 And so that was something 213 01:06:23,791 --> 01:06:25,500 that I had to have as well, 214 01:06:26,250 --> 01:06:27,583 which isn't possible in 215 01:06:27,583 --> 01:06:29,416 the PHP IMAP extension. 216 01:06:31,666 --> 01:06:32,250 Understood. 217 01:06:32,958 --> 01:06:34,833 Yeah, because I was trying to think, 218 01:06:34,833 --> 01:06:36,166 because I used to do a lot of email 219 01:06:36,166 --> 01:06:37,208 parsing back in the day 220 01:06:37,333 --> 01:06:39,583 and we would basically 221 01:06:39,583 --> 01:06:40,666 just had an old Chrome job. 222 01:06:40,666 --> 01:06:44,250 It would just log in through IMAP, 223 01:06:44,250 --> 01:06:45,750 check and see what's new, download it, 224 01:06:45,750 --> 01:06:47,333 and then go about its life. 225 01:06:48,375 --> 01:06:50,041 So with this idle thing, 226 01:06:50,375 --> 01:06:51,250 you don't even have to 227 01:06:51,250 --> 01:06:52,083 do that anymore, right? 228 01:06:52,083 --> 01:06:55,000 It's more real time, I 229 01:06:55,000 --> 01:06:55,958 guess is the right wording. 230 01:06:56,000 --> 01:06:56,750 Yeah, exactly. 231 01:06:56,791 --> 01:06:57,250 It's real time. 232 01:06:57,583 --> 01:07:00,875 So you can basically just get to boot up 233 01:07:01,000 --> 01:07:03,333 some kind of daemon in the background. 234 01:07:03,500 --> 01:07:04,375 So you just register, 235 01:07:04,791 --> 01:07:06,333 like I just use a Laravel command 236 01:07:06,333 --> 01:07:08,125 that I registered as a daemon on Forge 237 01:07:08,666 --> 01:07:10,541 and it just sits there open, 238 01:07:11,208 --> 01:07:12,500 basically in its own loop 239 01:07:12,500 --> 01:07:13,583 and its own stream loop. 240 01:07:14,250 --> 01:07:15,625 And it just waits for new 241 01:07:15,625 --> 01:07:16,541 messages from the server. 242 01:07:18,416 --> 01:07:18,583 Sweet. 243 01:07:18,791 --> 01:07:19,916 So, and then I assume 244 01:07:19,916 --> 01:07:22,416 that's like super beneficial for, 245 01:07:23,125 --> 01:07:25,000 you know, for, I guess 246 01:07:25,000 --> 01:07:26,958 for like speed or, you know. 247 01:07:27,416 --> 01:07:27,958 Yeah, yeah. 248 01:07:28,375 --> 01:07:30,250 Basically there's just lots of benefits 249 01:07:30,250 --> 01:07:31,375 to doing it this way versus 250 01:07:31,375 --> 01:07:32,958 the sort of the old school way. 251 01:07:33,750 --> 01:07:34,500 Yeah, yeah, absolutely. 252 01:07:34,833 --> 01:07:37,625 Because especially in 253 01:07:37,625 --> 01:07:40,250 the product that I built, 254 01:07:40,500 --> 01:07:41,666 and it's imperative 255 01:07:41,666 --> 01:07:42,958 that I act on the email 256 01:07:42,958 --> 01:07:43,958 as fast as possible. 257 01:07:44,416 --> 01:07:45,291 And if I was going to build it, 258 01:07:45,291 --> 01:07:46,875 I had to get at the 259 01:07:46,875 --> 01:07:48,208 emails as soon as they arrive, 260 01:07:48,208 --> 01:07:48,750 if possible. 261 01:07:49,250 --> 01:07:49,875 And if I wasn't going 262 01:07:49,875 --> 01:07:50,541 to be able to get them 263 01:07:50,541 --> 01:07:51,750 like as they came in, 264 01:07:51,750 --> 01:07:52,916 then there's kind of no point. 265 01:07:52,916 --> 01:07:54,041 Because if I'm 266 01:07:54,041 --> 01:07:55,750 looking for spam or phishing 267 01:07:55,750 --> 01:07:57,208 or whatever emails and the 268 01:07:57,208 --> 01:07:58,583 user can interact with it 269 01:07:58,583 --> 01:08:00,000 before I actually scan it, 270 01:08:00,000 --> 01:08:01,791 then the product's kind of defunct. 271 01:08:01,791 --> 01:08:02,708 I can't really, 272 01:08:03,125 --> 01:08:04,500 I'm kind of not helping them much there. 273 01:08:04,791 --> 01:08:05,333 So, yeah. 274 01:08:07,208 --> 01:08:07,416 Yeah. 275 01:08:08,708 --> 01:08:12,916 So how about, let me go get my note here. 276 01:08:14,375 --> 01:08:16,916 This, I think we touched on this, 277 01:08:16,916 --> 01:08:18,291 but we'll just clarify, 278 01:08:18,291 --> 01:08:19,500 does it support parsing 279 01:08:19,500 --> 01:08:21,083 and handling, you know, 280 01:08:21,083 --> 01:08:22,708 sort of the different character encodings 281 01:08:22,708 --> 01:08:25,500 or non-UTF8 emails or all the other mess 282 01:08:25,500 --> 01:08:27,666 that you might get out of a email inbox? 283 01:08:28,416 --> 01:08:29,416 Yeah, luckily that's 284 01:08:29,416 --> 01:08:31,458 handled by the package 285 01:08:31,583 --> 01:08:32,125 we're talking about 286 01:08:32,125 --> 01:08:34,458 Z-Bates and Mail, Mine parser. 287 01:08:35,208 --> 01:08:36,750 Mine Mail parser, it's 288 01:08:36,750 --> 01:08:38,333 whatever combination is. 289 01:08:38,583 --> 01:08:39,791 But yeah, luckily, 290 01:08:39,791 --> 01:08:40,708 because that package 291 01:08:40,708 --> 01:08:41,875 saved me months of work 292 01:08:42,041 --> 01:08:44,791 and huge kiddos to him to 293 01:08:44,791 --> 01:08:46,166 build some solid package 294 01:08:46,166 --> 01:08:47,708 and out of the code there 295 01:08:47,708 --> 01:08:49,416 to make sure I was like, 296 01:08:49,416 --> 01:08:50,750 if I'm going to install this, 297 01:08:51,291 --> 01:08:52,833 I can't just have this 298 01:08:52,833 --> 01:08:54,416 package wrap some other library 299 01:08:54,666 --> 01:08:55,958 that I don't think is well built. 300 01:08:56,166 --> 01:08:57,500 I really want it to be 301 01:08:57,500 --> 01:08:58,541 like a complete solution 302 01:08:58,541 --> 01:09:00,083 that feels good and is also, 303 01:09:00,583 --> 01:09:01,750 if any packages that I was 304 01:09:01,750 --> 01:09:04,625 going to have to be reliant on 305 01:09:04,625 --> 01:09:06,166 that those also be well built. 306 01:09:06,458 --> 01:09:07,541 And so I think he did a 307 01:09:07,541 --> 01:09:08,583 great job on that, luckily. 308 01:09:09,958 --> 01:09:10,958 Yeah, that's sweet. 309 01:09:11,166 --> 01:09:13,041 Yeah, that's, we were talking about it 310 01:09:13,041 --> 01:09:14,083 kind of before we started the 311 01:09:14,083 --> 01:09:16,208 show and that was a package. 312 01:09:16,208 --> 01:09:18,208 I was, had some familiarity with 313 01:09:18,916 --> 01:09:19,833 because it takes a lot of 314 01:09:19,833 --> 01:09:21,791 the headaches out of parsing. 315 01:09:22,541 --> 01:09:24,500 Like, you know, what you, like, 316 01:09:24,500 --> 01:09:25,583 I don't know if you've 317 01:09:25,583 --> 01:09:26,666 never parsed the emails before, 318 01:09:27,000 --> 01:09:27,875 you will get into the 319 01:09:27,875 --> 01:09:30,500 most random bugs and issues 320 01:09:30,500 --> 01:09:31,916 and just weird stuff that 321 01:09:31,916 --> 01:09:33,000 you've ever seen in your life. 322 01:09:33,000 --> 01:09:34,125 Yeah, oh my gosh. 323 01:09:34,708 --> 01:09:36,041 Yeah, holy moly. 324 01:09:36,250 --> 01:09:39,000 I was so surprised at how complicated 325 01:09:39,458 --> 01:09:40,916 and deep in the weeds you 326 01:09:40,916 --> 01:09:42,166 have to get for email parsing. 327 01:09:42,375 --> 01:09:44,291 Email parsing is so complicated. 328 01:09:44,625 --> 01:09:46,583 I was like, I hope someone wrote 329 01:09:46,583 --> 01:09:48,041 something well for this. 330 01:09:49,833 --> 01:09:50,375 Yeah, yeah. 331 01:09:50,375 --> 01:09:51,000 And then everybody's 332 01:09:51,000 --> 01:09:52,125 like, well, you know, 333 01:09:52,125 --> 01:09:53,541 there's this SaaS app you can just 334 01:09:53,541 --> 01:09:54,625 install and use there. 335 01:09:54,625 --> 01:09:56,666 So I was like, well, I can't use that 336 01:09:56,750 --> 01:09:58,916 when we do self, you know, self installs, 337 01:09:58,916 --> 01:10:00,000 all this other stuff, but yeah. 338 01:10:00,208 --> 01:10:01,666 So then it was just, you know, 339 01:10:02,000 --> 01:10:04,000 parsing it yourself is not fun. 340 01:10:04,958 --> 01:10:05,583 Yeah, yeah. 341 01:10:05,791 --> 01:10:08,125 And I think we need these solutions. 342 01:10:09,375 --> 01:10:12,500 If like, I feel like it's really common 343 01:10:12,791 --> 01:10:15,458 in the JavaScript land that 344 01:10:15,458 --> 01:10:16,500 you just kind of outsource 345 01:10:16,666 --> 01:10:18,958 these core functionalities in your auth 346 01:10:18,958 --> 01:10:21,916 and your queues and your 347 01:10:21,916 --> 01:10:23,375 email service and all this stuff. 348 01:10:23,416 --> 01:10:26,291 You outsource all these huge components 349 01:10:26,791 --> 01:10:27,875 that I feel like we should 350 01:10:27,875 --> 01:10:31,250 be able to have ourselves 351 01:10:31,250 --> 01:10:33,083 and PHP without having 352 01:10:33,083 --> 01:10:34,125 to sign up for the service 353 01:10:34,125 --> 01:10:35,791 and pay them to do it, you know. 354 01:10:36,666 --> 01:10:37,958 And they've offered so 355 01:10:37,958 --> 01:10:39,000 much of that, you know, 356 01:10:39,208 --> 01:10:40,375 so much of that for free 357 01:10:40,375 --> 01:10:41,541 that you can just host locally, 358 01:10:41,875 --> 01:10:42,500 like on your machine 359 01:10:42,500 --> 01:10:43,500 or on your own server. 360 01:10:45,291 --> 01:10:45,916 Yeah, for sure. 361 01:10:46,166 --> 01:10:47,000 I think that's one of 362 01:10:47,000 --> 01:10:47,958 the benefits, you know, 363 01:10:48,208 --> 01:10:50,166 to a true full stack or a 364 01:10:50,166 --> 01:10:51,500 full framework, you know, 365 01:10:51,500 --> 01:10:52,875 it handles all this stuff 366 01:10:52,958 --> 01:10:55,291 and you technically don't have to go 367 01:10:55,291 --> 01:10:56,291 reach for third parties 368 01:10:56,291 --> 01:10:57,291 unless you just have some 369 01:10:57,291 --> 01:10:58,666 obscure use case or something. 370 01:11:00,458 --> 01:11:01,416 But that does bring me, 371 01:11:01,666 --> 01:11:02,916 speaking of third party stuff, 372 01:11:03,583 --> 01:11:05,958 if didn't like Google and 373 01:11:05,958 --> 01:11:07,250 Microsoft and all those guys 374 01:11:08,416 --> 01:11:10,791 or Habs, didn't they try to 375 01:11:10,791 --> 01:11:12,291 prevent you from using IMAP 376 01:11:12,291 --> 01:11:13,166 and wanting you to go 377 01:11:13,166 --> 01:11:14,958 directly to API calls now 378 01:11:15,041 --> 01:11:17,708 or am I mistaken on my memory there? 379 01:11:18,416 --> 01:11:20,166 No, you're partially correct for sure. 380 01:11:20,208 --> 01:11:22,333 So you can actually 381 01:11:22,333 --> 01:11:25,666 connect to IMAP through like to, 382 01:11:26,416 --> 01:11:27,708 you can use IMAP to connect 383 01:11:27,708 --> 01:11:30,625 to Google and Microsoft inboxes 384 01:11:30,833 --> 01:11:31,958 if you use either 385 01:11:31,958 --> 01:11:35,125 OAuth or a app password. 386 01:11:35,708 --> 01:11:37,083 App passwords is easier, but 387 01:11:37,083 --> 01:11:38,208 you kind of have to go deep 388 01:11:38,208 --> 01:11:39,375 in your weeds, deep in 389 01:11:39,375 --> 01:11:40,125 the weeds of the account 390 01:11:40,125 --> 01:11:42,208 to generate an app password. 391 01:11:42,208 --> 01:11:43,583 And usually they won't even advertise it, 392 01:11:43,583 --> 01:11:44,625 they do, you have to grab 393 01:11:44,625 --> 01:11:45,708 like a link from somewhere 394 01:11:45,708 --> 01:11:47,000 to navigate directly 395 01:11:47,000 --> 01:11:48,291 into your account to do it. 396 01:11:49,000 --> 01:11:50,541 Google, for example, doesn't even display 397 01:11:50,541 --> 01:11:51,458 that they have the functionality, 398 01:11:51,750 --> 01:11:53,000 you have to actually navigate directly 399 01:11:53,500 --> 01:11:54,875 to like an account manage 400 01:11:54,875 --> 01:11:56,833 link with app passwords on it 401 01:11:56,833 --> 01:11:57,791 and generate them there. 402 01:11:58,916 --> 01:12:00,208 So really deep in the weeds, 403 01:12:00,416 --> 01:12:05,500 but getting access to connect over IMAP 404 01:12:05,625 --> 01:12:06,416 with Google in 405 01:12:06,416 --> 01:12:08,708 particular is extremely difficult. 406 01:12:09,583 --> 01:12:10,875 I had to do it, I had to go 407 01:12:10,875 --> 01:12:13,458 through CASA2 verification 408 01:12:14,541 --> 01:12:16,333 because if you connect through IMAP, 409 01:12:16,625 --> 01:12:17,375 you ultimately have 410 01:12:17,375 --> 01:12:18,416 full access to the mailbox, 411 01:12:18,791 --> 01:12:19,958 you can move emails 412 01:12:19,958 --> 01:12:21,000 around, you can delete them, 413 01:12:21,000 --> 01:12:22,000 basically full spread, right? 414 01:12:22,000 --> 01:12:22,833 You can do whatever you want. 415 01:12:23,833 --> 01:12:25,458 And they consider that as like a 416 01:12:25,458 --> 01:12:26,583 dangerous level of scope. 417 01:12:27,958 --> 01:12:30,750 And so because they see it that way, 418 01:12:30,750 --> 01:12:32,166 you have to go through their intense 419 01:12:32,166 --> 01:12:33,125 security verification. 420 01:12:33,833 --> 01:12:35,458 And it took me four 421 01:12:35,458 --> 01:12:37,666 months of just back and forth, 422 01:12:37,666 --> 01:12:39,458 back and forth, getting 423 01:12:39,458 --> 01:12:40,833 like trying to figure out 424 01:12:40,833 --> 01:12:42,000 what they wanted next to 425 01:12:42,000 --> 01:12:43,375 make sure I was compliant. 426 01:12:44,166 --> 01:12:44,833 You also have to go 427 01:12:44,833 --> 01:12:45,583 through a third party, 428 01:12:45,833 --> 01:12:48,500 which does some pen 429 01:12:48,500 --> 01:12:52,250 testing on your live application, 430 01:12:53,083 --> 01:12:53,833 just to make sure that 431 01:12:53,833 --> 01:12:55,750 there's no obvious like polls 432 01:12:55,750 --> 01:12:56,875 and all that stuff, 433 01:12:58,166 --> 01:13:00,291 which made it very painful, 434 01:13:00,625 --> 01:13:01,250 very painful. 435 01:13:01,750 --> 01:13:04,666 And now they even, they made 436 01:13:04,666 --> 01:13:06,166 the process even more difficult 437 01:13:06,291 --> 01:13:07,541 because they stopped 438 01:13:07,541 --> 01:13:08,416 offering it for free. 439 01:13:08,666 --> 01:13:11,125 So you have to pay 600 US dollars a year 440 01:13:11,666 --> 01:13:13,458 to keep your CASA2 verification 441 01:13:14,166 --> 01:13:16,625 just for the privilege of OAuth thing 442 01:13:17,166 --> 01:13:19,500 and connecting through IMAP. 443 01:13:21,666 --> 01:13:24,291 So now I basically, but 444 01:13:24,291 --> 01:13:26,458 luckily there's a workaround to OAuth 445 01:13:26,458 --> 01:13:28,250 and it's for Google and it's just 446 01:13:28,250 --> 01:13:29,583 generating an app password 447 01:13:30,166 --> 01:13:32,000 and you bypass all of that. 448 01:13:32,666 --> 01:13:33,791 So that's basically what 449 01:13:33,791 --> 01:13:35,208 I've had to instruct users 450 01:13:35,208 --> 01:13:36,583 to do on my platform is 451 01:13:36,583 --> 01:13:39,208 connect over app password. 452 01:13:40,375 --> 01:13:41,875 Yeah, yeah, that makes sense. 453 01:13:41,916 --> 01:13:44,083 I seem to remember like 454 01:13:44,083 --> 01:13:45,458 a couple of years ago, 455 01:13:45,875 --> 01:13:46,791 we were using app 456 01:13:46,791 --> 01:13:48,541 passwords and then they were like, 457 01:13:49,291 --> 01:13:51,125 we're shutting that down and like you 458 01:13:51,125 --> 01:13:53,458 have to move to OAuth 459 01:13:53,458 --> 01:13:54,208 or move to something 460 01:13:54,208 --> 01:13:56,041 else by a certain day. 461 01:13:56,041 --> 01:13:56,875 And it was the same way, 462 01:13:56,875 --> 01:13:57,250 it was like you had to 463 01:13:57,250 --> 01:13:58,041 go through all the stuff 464 01:13:58,041 --> 01:13:59,625 and it was just the pain. 465 01:14:01,458 --> 01:14:03,250 But speaking of your product, 466 01:14:03,250 --> 01:14:03,625 I know you mentioned 467 01:14:03,625 --> 01:14:04,541 it's called Spamwise. 468 01:14:04,916 --> 01:14:05,833 So just tell me about 469 01:14:05,833 --> 01:14:07,083 that, like how does that work? 470 01:14:08,083 --> 01:14:11,833 Yeah, so Spamwise isn't, it's Spamwise.ai 471 01:14:11,833 --> 01:14:14,166 and it's an AI based app. 472 01:14:15,000 --> 01:14:17,458 And it kind of came 473 01:14:17,458 --> 01:14:20,708 from me getting phish. 474 01:14:21,125 --> 01:14:23,375 I got phished once by a 475 01:14:23,375 --> 01:14:25,916 perfectly targeted email, 476 01:14:26,458 --> 01:14:27,791 a delivery notification email. 477 01:14:27,791 --> 01:14:28,750 I was expecting a delivery 478 01:14:28,750 --> 01:14:30,333 from a company about a year later 479 01:14:30,666 --> 01:14:32,541 and I got an email like 480 01:14:32,541 --> 01:14:34,250 the next day saying that, 481 01:14:34,333 --> 01:14:37,416 they tried to deliver and 482 01:14:37,416 --> 01:14:40,500 to attempt to re-delivery, 483 01:14:40,500 --> 01:14:41,666 we're gonna have to charge you fee. 484 01:14:42,250 --> 01:14:43,083 And I've had to pay 485 01:14:43,083 --> 01:14:44,125 this kind of fee before 486 01:14:44,125 --> 01:14:46,583 and so I go through and I 487 01:14:46,583 --> 01:14:48,208 enter in all my information, 488 01:14:48,208 --> 01:14:49,458 my credit card and they had 489 01:14:49,458 --> 01:14:50,833 the whole peer later website 490 01:14:50,833 --> 01:14:52,041 all mocked out and stuff. 491 01:14:53,166 --> 01:14:57,666 And so luckily I thought that was weird 492 01:14:57,666 --> 01:15:00,458 as soon as I went through the payment. 493 01:15:00,458 --> 01:15:01,375 I'm like, that was kind of weird. 494 01:15:01,625 --> 01:15:02,583 I should probably check if, 495 01:15:02,958 --> 01:15:04,125 this is on my smartphone at the time. 496 01:15:04,833 --> 01:15:06,166 I was doing this all to my phone. 497 01:15:07,208 --> 01:15:08,083 And I was like, that was kind of weird. 498 01:15:08,083 --> 01:15:08,541 Maybe I should check 499 01:15:08,541 --> 01:15:09,708 to see, like make sure, 500 01:15:10,000 --> 01:15:10,916 go back to the link and 501 01:15:10,916 --> 01:15:12,083 double check the domain name. 502 01:15:12,083 --> 01:15:12,791 And of course it was 503 01:15:12,791 --> 01:15:13,750 some weird domain name. 504 01:15:13,750 --> 01:15:17,041 I'm like, oh my gosh, why did this email, 505 01:15:17,625 --> 01:15:19,208 this obviously not peer 506 01:15:19,208 --> 01:15:20,958 later email land in my inbox? 507 01:15:21,208 --> 01:15:22,750 Like why did Microsoft, 508 01:15:23,208 --> 01:15:23,958 because I use Outlook. 509 01:15:24,250 --> 01:15:25,500 And I was like, why, this is such an 510 01:15:25,500 --> 01:15:27,125 obvious phishing email 511 01:15:27,125 --> 01:15:28,375 because the address wasn't 512 01:15:28,375 --> 01:15:29,333 even a peer later address, 513 01:15:29,333 --> 01:15:30,916 but at the time they didn't 514 01:15:30,916 --> 01:15:32,416 show the address in there. 515 01:15:32,458 --> 01:15:34,416 So anyway, once they were short, 516 01:15:34,666 --> 01:15:35,875 that was, I was so 517 01:15:35,875 --> 01:15:38,166 upset that I got phished 518 01:15:38,166 --> 01:15:39,500 that I'm like, I'm gonna make sure 519 01:15:39,500 --> 01:15:41,000 that this never happens to me again. 520 01:15:41,750 --> 01:15:43,333 And anyone else who may 521 01:15:43,333 --> 01:15:44,750 have also happened to. 522 01:15:45,375 --> 01:15:46,166 And so I built the 523 01:15:46,166 --> 01:15:48,375 product that I tested first. 524 01:15:48,750 --> 01:15:49,250 I was like, I wonder 525 01:15:49,250 --> 01:15:50,500 if I could use Chagibiti 526 01:15:50,500 --> 01:15:53,208 to determine if an email 527 01:15:53,208 --> 01:15:54,916 is like phishing or not. 528 01:15:55,375 --> 01:15:56,500 And I was like, oh my 529 01:15:56,500 --> 01:15:57,916 gosh, this is so accurate. 530 01:15:57,916 --> 01:15:59,500 It's so, so accurate. 531 01:15:59,708 --> 01:16:03,333 It's like 95 to 99% accurate. 532 01:16:03,708 --> 01:16:05,791 It's highly accurate in figuring out 533 01:16:06,000 --> 01:16:07,125 just IO3 header 534 01:16:07,125 --> 01:16:09,208 checks or by like contents 535 01:16:09,458 --> 01:16:10,833 or by the links and 536 01:16:10,833 --> 01:16:13,541 having like AI context 537 01:16:13,916 --> 01:16:14,958 to determine if something 538 01:16:14,958 --> 01:16:17,416 is spanned is super accurate. 539 01:16:17,625 --> 01:16:20,000 And so the issue is gone for me. 540 01:16:20,000 --> 01:16:20,958 Like I don't have that 541 01:16:20,958 --> 01:16:23,875 anymore because of the product. 542 01:16:24,208 --> 01:16:26,291 And that's why I built it. 543 01:16:26,833 --> 01:16:28,208 And I'm really glad that. 544 01:16:29,750 --> 01:16:30,250 It works. 545 01:16:31,500 --> 01:16:32,666 Yeah, that's like, yeah. 546 01:16:32,666 --> 01:16:34,250 Those are the best product ever is like, 547 01:16:34,625 --> 01:16:35,708 I had this problem and 548 01:16:35,708 --> 01:16:37,000 I'm just gonna fix it. 549 01:16:37,000 --> 01:16:38,083 And if people wanna buy it, good. 550 01:16:38,583 --> 01:16:40,166 But it's gonna solve all my problems. 551 01:16:40,750 --> 01:16:42,083 Those always seem to 552 01:16:42,083 --> 01:16:43,625 be really good products. 553 01:16:44,125 --> 01:16:44,750 You mentioned Forge. 554 01:16:45,041 --> 01:16:46,750 I know it started off the same way. 555 01:16:46,750 --> 01:16:47,625 Taylor's like, this is annoying. 556 01:16:47,916 --> 01:16:49,166 Let's build something. 557 01:16:49,500 --> 01:16:50,541 And then it took off 558 01:16:50,541 --> 01:16:51,875 and now it's successful. 559 01:16:52,791 --> 01:16:55,125 But yeah, that's a perfect use case. 560 01:16:55,833 --> 01:16:57,041 Scratch your own itch kind of stuff. 561 01:16:57,541 --> 01:16:57,750 Absolutely. 562 01:16:58,333 --> 01:16:59,125 It is wild though. 563 01:16:59,166 --> 01:17:02,250 I use Gmail, like Google apps 564 01:17:02,250 --> 01:17:03,458 for your domain or whatever. 565 01:17:03,666 --> 01:17:04,583 And there'll still be 566 01:17:04,583 --> 01:17:06,000 occasional like PayPal ones 567 01:17:06,000 --> 01:17:08,958 that come in and I'm like, this is shady. 568 01:17:09,291 --> 01:17:10,208 Like none of this makes sense. 569 01:17:10,208 --> 01:17:10,583 I'm like, I don't even 570 01:17:10,583 --> 01:17:11,416 know why it's in my inbox. 571 01:17:11,708 --> 01:17:13,333 And it's like, it's even 572 01:17:13,333 --> 01:17:14,458 like to the wrong person. 573 01:17:14,458 --> 01:17:15,375 But for some reason, 574 01:17:15,625 --> 01:17:16,500 I don't even know how. 575 01:17:16,875 --> 01:17:17,458 I need to go back and 576 01:17:17,458 --> 01:17:18,208 look through all the headers. 577 01:17:18,208 --> 01:17:19,583 But I end up just deleting them always. 578 01:17:19,833 --> 01:17:21,333 I'm like, oh no, not touching that. 579 01:17:22,500 --> 01:17:25,500 But yeah, it's crazy. 580 01:17:26,375 --> 01:17:27,000 Yeah, it's frustrating. 581 01:17:29,291 --> 01:17:33,583 So as far as like the IMAP stuff, 582 01:17:35,291 --> 01:17:37,541 at its core, since you're 583 01:17:37,541 --> 01:17:38,708 sort of using another package 584 01:17:38,708 --> 01:17:40,666 for the parsing and stuff like that. 585 01:17:40,666 --> 01:17:42,333 So the IMAP side of 586 01:17:42,333 --> 01:17:44,416 it is you're just like 587 01:17:44,500 --> 01:17:47,041 logging into the mailbox, just checking, 588 01:17:47,791 --> 01:17:48,916 I guess folders that you've 589 01:17:48,916 --> 01:17:50,416 sent in your search string. 590 01:17:51,041 --> 01:17:52,166 And then just grabbing 591 01:17:52,166 --> 01:17:53,458 new emails that come out. 592 01:17:53,458 --> 01:17:54,833 Is that sort of, am I 593 01:17:54,833 --> 01:17:56,583 thinking of IMAP the right way 594 01:17:56,875 --> 01:17:59,333 as far as how in works technology was? 595 01:18:00,083 --> 01:18:04,666 Yeah, it's like a mailbox management API. 596 01:18:05,541 --> 01:18:07,916 So you can get all your mailbox folders. 597 01:18:07,916 --> 01:18:09,000 You can get all your 598 01:18:09,000 --> 01:18:10,625 messages in your folders. 599 01:18:11,166 --> 01:18:11,583 You can execute 600 01:18:11,583 --> 01:18:13,416 queries, like they support 601 01:18:14,083 --> 01:18:15,750 like their own query syntax. 602 01:18:16,333 --> 01:18:19,500 So you can look for messages before or 603 01:18:19,500 --> 01:18:20,416 after a certain date 604 01:18:20,416 --> 01:18:22,333 that are not seen or flagged 605 01:18:22,333 --> 01:18:24,333 or that are within certain folders. 606 01:18:24,500 --> 01:18:26,625 And you can move them 607 01:18:26,625 --> 01:18:27,583 around, delete them, 608 01:18:27,916 --> 01:18:29,250 flag them, unflag them and 609 01:18:29,250 --> 01:18:31,041 kind of do whole management 610 01:18:31,583 --> 01:18:32,583 across, oh, you can also 611 01:18:32,583 --> 01:18:34,250 create draft emails as well 612 01:18:34,791 --> 01:18:37,166 through IMAP and then like later pick 613 01:18:37,166 --> 01:18:39,083 those up through SMTP 614 01:18:39,333 --> 01:18:40,791 and throw those, like send those away. 615 01:18:41,791 --> 01:18:42,541 So basically it's just 616 01:18:42,541 --> 01:18:43,958 like a complete solution 617 01:18:44,041 --> 01:18:45,708 to managing your mailbox. 618 01:18:47,416 --> 01:18:47,916 I like that. 619 01:18:48,958 --> 01:18:52,125 And as far as like, I know 620 01:18:52,125 --> 01:18:53,125 since you're running SpamWise 621 01:18:53,208 --> 01:18:54,208 and you've created this, 622 01:18:54,958 --> 01:18:56,500 is the majority of people 623 01:18:56,500 --> 01:18:58,750 sticking with like Google and Outlook 624 01:18:58,875 --> 01:19:01,250 or Gmail and Outlook or is, 625 01:19:02,125 --> 01:19:03,041 or there are still quite 626 01:19:03,041 --> 01:19:04,000 a few people still running 627 01:19:04,000 --> 01:19:04,458 their own mail 628 01:19:04,458 --> 01:19:05,625 servers and stuff like that? 629 01:19:06,208 --> 01:19:07,041 Oh yeah, it's a good question. 630 01:19:07,041 --> 01:19:10,541 I've actually seen, it's pretty split. 631 01:19:10,541 --> 01:19:12,750 I've seen, like I don't have many users. 632 01:19:12,750 --> 01:19:14,041 I think I have probably like 12 633 01:19:14,041 --> 01:19:15,583 subscribers right now. 634 01:19:15,833 --> 01:19:17,291 It's very, very small still. 635 01:19:19,416 --> 01:19:21,125 I think I have a half 636 01:19:21,125 --> 01:19:22,875 our Outlook and Gmail 637 01:19:23,000 --> 01:19:24,500 and half our like custom, 638 01:19:24,500 --> 01:19:26,541 custom my mount servers for sure. 639 01:19:27,125 --> 01:19:27,791 That's interesting. 640 01:19:27,791 --> 01:19:28,458 I didn't think anybody 641 01:19:28,458 --> 01:19:29,166 would still be running 642 01:19:29,166 --> 01:19:29,875 their own mail servers. 643 01:19:30,166 --> 01:19:30,958 For sure, yeah. 644 01:19:31,583 --> 01:19:32,333 I was definitely, I'm 645 01:19:32,333 --> 01:19:33,291 definitely surprised there. 646 01:19:34,000 --> 01:19:35,000 Yeah, yeah, me too. 647 01:19:35,416 --> 01:19:35,833 Yeah, I'm surprised. 648 01:19:36,583 --> 01:19:37,916 I can't imagine running that. 649 01:19:37,916 --> 01:19:38,708 Cause that would be, 650 01:19:38,958 --> 01:19:39,750 that would certainly be 651 01:19:39,750 --> 01:19:41,208 an uphill painful battle 652 01:19:41,208 --> 01:19:42,708 to run your own mail server 653 01:19:42,708 --> 01:19:44,000 and keep the 654 01:19:44,000 --> 01:19:46,541 reputation alive to make sure 655 01:19:46,666 --> 01:19:48,666 they're at all deliverable. 656 01:19:50,458 --> 01:19:51,083 Yeah, yeah. 657 01:19:51,333 --> 01:19:53,583 And I assume like you need to, 658 01:19:54,666 --> 01:19:55,833 I didn't even look at 659 01:19:55,833 --> 01:19:57,666 that on the read me. 660 01:19:58,000 --> 01:19:59,458 You gotta make sure, you know, 661 01:20:00,375 --> 01:20:02,833 if they're using IMAP engine package, 662 01:20:03,041 --> 01:20:04,833 then they should be using spam wise 663 01:20:05,000 --> 01:20:07,333 because what better way to make sure 664 01:20:07,333 --> 01:20:08,041 you're not pulling in 665 01:20:08,041 --> 01:20:10,000 spam than to run spam wise 666 01:20:10,458 --> 01:20:12,041 along with IMAP engine. 667 01:20:12,583 --> 01:20:13,625 Yeah, that's right. 668 01:20:15,583 --> 01:20:17,208 Gotta cross market this stuff, you know? 669 01:20:18,291 --> 01:20:18,916 Yeah, yeah. 670 01:20:19,000 --> 01:20:20,500 I'm always careful about kind of like 671 01:20:20,541 --> 01:20:21,791 cheapening the message a bit though. 672 01:20:22,083 --> 01:20:23,958 I always, like I don't, 673 01:20:23,958 --> 01:20:25,000 and it is also like a 674 01:20:25,000 --> 01:20:25,833 scratch manage thing. 675 01:20:26,208 --> 01:20:29,000 Like it's so nice to not 676 01:20:29,000 --> 01:20:30,541 care if it's successful or not. 677 01:20:30,541 --> 01:20:31,000 I'm like, I don't 678 01:20:31,000 --> 01:20:31,666 care if it's successful. 679 01:20:31,791 --> 01:20:32,500 I'm gonna run it and 680 01:20:32,500 --> 01:20:33,250 maintain it regardless 681 01:20:33,250 --> 01:20:34,208 of anyone who uses it 682 01:20:34,208 --> 01:20:35,000 because I'm gonna use it 683 01:20:35,000 --> 01:20:36,875 every single day and it doesn't matter. 684 01:20:36,875 --> 01:20:37,916 And that's, I think 685 01:20:37,916 --> 01:20:39,333 also very freeing, right? 686 01:20:39,833 --> 01:20:40,958 You don't, you have to be like, 687 01:20:41,125 --> 01:20:42,166 I don't have my 688 01:20:42,166 --> 01:20:44,375 livelihood riding on this app. 689 01:20:45,250 --> 01:20:47,375 And also it gives confidence. 690 01:20:47,750 --> 01:20:49,875 I would think to the users that, 691 01:20:50,375 --> 01:20:52,291 okay, this guy's gonna be running it 692 01:20:52,291 --> 01:20:53,500 whether or not it's successful. 693 01:20:53,791 --> 01:20:55,166 So it doesn't matter. 694 01:20:55,500 --> 01:20:57,583 Like it'll always be online essentially. 695 01:20:58,458 --> 01:20:58,708 Right. 696 01:20:59,791 --> 01:21:02,750 What are some other apps like the, 697 01:21:03,125 --> 01:21:04,375 as far as like the IMAP engine, 698 01:21:05,166 --> 01:21:07,000 like how do you see it being used or, 699 01:21:08,125 --> 01:21:08,958 I know it's pretty new, 700 01:21:08,958 --> 01:21:10,000 so you might not have a 701 01:21:10,000 --> 01:21:11,416 lot of data behind all this, 702 01:21:11,416 --> 01:21:14,333 but I guess kind of anything 703 01:21:14,333 --> 01:21:16,250 that you're building PHP with email, 704 01:21:16,500 --> 01:21:17,583 you might need this. 705 01:21:17,583 --> 01:21:19,625 Is that sort of what you've been seeing 706 01:21:19,625 --> 01:21:21,291 or is it like more specific use cases? 707 01:21:22,291 --> 01:21:23,791 Yeah, I would think a lot. 708 01:21:24,750 --> 01:21:25,708 I would think of used 709 01:21:25,708 --> 01:21:28,166 a lot in intranet apps. 710 01:21:28,958 --> 01:21:31,541 I came from, like my 711 01:21:31,541 --> 01:21:33,416 career was kind of born 712 01:21:33,500 --> 01:21:35,458 in the enterprise world, 713 01:21:35,750 --> 01:21:38,083 building intranet apps for the federal 714 01:21:38,083 --> 01:21:38,708 government of Canada. 715 01:21:39,500 --> 01:21:41,166 I was a young kid just 716 01:21:41,166 --> 01:21:44,708 building in siloed servers, 717 01:21:44,708 --> 01:21:45,791 not having access to the internet, 718 01:21:46,000 --> 01:21:46,916 but we had all of our 719 01:21:46,916 --> 01:21:48,125 infrastructure internally. 720 01:21:48,625 --> 01:21:50,000 And so I was using PHP at the time 721 01:21:50,000 --> 01:21:51,666 to kind of talk to all of 722 01:21:51,666 --> 01:21:53,666 our internal services and stuff 723 01:21:54,333 --> 01:21:55,500 without access to the internet. 724 01:21:56,125 --> 01:21:57,250 And so I think it would be, 725 01:21:57,833 --> 01:21:59,166 I think IMAP engine would be 726 01:21:59,166 --> 01:22:00,541 probably particularly useful 727 01:22:00,541 --> 01:22:02,500 in those circumstances where you do have 728 01:22:02,666 --> 01:22:04,208 maybe some in-house email servers 729 01:22:04,208 --> 01:22:05,916 or you are kind of 730 01:22:05,916 --> 01:22:08,000 processing incoming emails 731 01:22:08,000 --> 01:22:09,500 to act upon them for something, 732 01:22:09,500 --> 01:22:11,500 maybe like an IT help desk or something. 733 01:22:13,416 --> 01:22:15,208 And those kinds of apps, yeah. 734 01:22:16,250 --> 01:22:16,916 Yeah, that makes sense. 735 01:22:17,166 --> 01:22:18,750 Yeah, in my past 736 01:22:18,750 --> 01:22:20,208 history, we had a help desk app 737 01:22:20,208 --> 01:22:20,875 and it was the same way 738 01:22:20,875 --> 01:22:21,875 we'd had a bunch of customers 739 01:22:21,875 --> 01:22:22,625 that would just run 740 01:22:22,625 --> 01:22:24,125 it completely offline. 741 01:22:24,916 --> 01:22:26,166 But then I can't remember 742 01:22:26,166 --> 01:22:27,291 how they would get around that, 743 01:22:27,291 --> 01:22:28,541 but they would check emails somehow 744 01:22:28,541 --> 01:22:29,208 and then it would, 745 01:22:30,416 --> 01:22:31,041 but basically you 746 01:22:31,041 --> 01:22:31,916 could run it all offline 747 01:22:32,458 --> 01:22:34,458 or all behind a firewall or something. 748 01:22:35,500 --> 01:22:37,333 So that makes perfect sense there. 749 01:22:38,708 --> 01:22:40,833 And not to sort of, well, 750 01:22:41,250 --> 01:22:42,833 I guess we should close out with this. 751 01:22:42,833 --> 01:22:44,875 Did we miss anything that you 752 01:22:44,875 --> 01:22:45,958 wanna talk about on the IMAP? 753 01:22:46,458 --> 01:22:48,625 Not really. 754 01:22:49,166 --> 01:22:49,541 I think it- 755 01:22:49,541 --> 01:22:51,500 Cause I was gonna say, 756 01:22:51,500 --> 01:22:52,208 cause I would like to talk 757 01:22:52,208 --> 01:22:53,125 about your other package. 758 01:22:53,125 --> 01:22:53,875 You've got one called 759 01:22:53,875 --> 01:22:55,500 LDAP record, is that right? 760 01:22:55,958 --> 01:22:56,833 Yeah, yeah. 761 01:22:57,500 --> 01:22:58,500 Yeah, yeah. 762 01:22:58,791 --> 01:23:00,500 It was born out of the 763 01:23:00,500 --> 01:23:03,291 same kind of frustration, 764 01:23:03,291 --> 01:23:05,041 I think, as IMAP engine. 765 01:23:07,125 --> 01:23:09,416 And for those not familiar with LDAP, 766 01:23:09,625 --> 01:23:12,875 that is directory 767 01:23:12,875 --> 01:23:14,916 access for finding users 768 01:23:14,916 --> 01:23:15,000 or something like that. 769 01:23:15,250 --> 01:23:18,208 I'm thinking about it right there. 770 01:23:18,583 --> 01:23:19,958 Yeah, it's lightweight 771 01:23:19,958 --> 01:23:21,791 directory access protocol. 772 01:23:22,250 --> 01:23:23,708 And it's again, another 773 01:23:23,708 --> 01:23:26,083 intranet focused protocol, 774 01:23:27,000 --> 01:23:29,166 like Microsoft Active Directory, 775 01:23:29,458 --> 01:23:32,125 which is basically a directory of users. 776 01:23:32,541 --> 01:23:35,041 Like if you are working in an enterprise 777 01:23:35,041 --> 01:23:36,666 and you have a user account, 778 01:23:36,666 --> 01:23:37,750 that's where it's gonna be stored. 779 01:23:38,583 --> 01:23:42,208 And so again, since I was building everything internally 780 01:23:42,833 --> 01:23:45,708 in a Microsoft based environment, 781 01:23:46,083 --> 01:23:47,625 we had everything connected 782 01:23:47,625 --> 01:23:49,250 to Microsoft Active Directory, 783 01:23:49,666 --> 01:23:50,500 which uses LDAP. 784 01:23:51,041 --> 01:23:51,875 And so we had like our 785 01:23:51,875 --> 01:23:53,333 printers connected to it. 786 01:23:53,333 --> 01:23:54,583 We had all the computers, all the 787 01:23:54,583 --> 01:23:55,791 devices, all the phones, 788 01:23:55,791 --> 01:23:57,083 like mail servers, 789 01:23:57,416 --> 01:23:58,333 everything is connected 790 01:23:58,333 --> 01:24:01,500 to this Microsoft Active Directory 791 01:24:01,500 --> 01:24:03,375 to manage all the user accounts, 792 01:24:03,375 --> 01:24:04,708 all the permissions, who 793 01:24:04,708 --> 01:24:06,166 accesses what and everything. 794 01:24:06,166 --> 01:24:07,583 And so that's where 795 01:24:07,583 --> 01:24:08,750 that was born from, yeah. 796 01:24:10,166 --> 01:24:11,250 You're just deep into the woods of, 797 01:24:11,291 --> 01:24:13,291 stuff that most people, 798 01:24:13,625 --> 01:24:14,958 I guess most new 799 01:24:14,958 --> 01:24:16,041 developers probably haven't touched 800 01:24:16,041 --> 01:24:17,750 any of these technologies, have they? 801 01:24:19,333 --> 01:24:23,666 But the, which I'm trying to think of, 802 01:24:25,791 --> 01:24:26,708 where I was going with this. 803 01:24:27,000 --> 01:24:33,875 So the LDAP record or LDAP directory 804 01:24:33,875 --> 01:24:35,250 isn't tied to email, 805 01:24:35,500 --> 01:24:37,250 but it can, you can use it 806 01:24:37,250 --> 01:24:39,125 as far as like pulling emails. 807 01:24:39,291 --> 01:24:42,000 Am I thinking, can't they kind of go 808 01:24:42,000 --> 01:24:43,333 together at some point? 809 01:24:43,791 --> 01:24:44,291 Yeah, absolutely. 810 01:24:44,541 --> 01:24:46,791 You can use it to like authenticate, 811 01:24:47,583 --> 01:24:48,416 like using those 812 01:24:48,416 --> 01:24:51,083 credentials to authenticate IMO, 813 01:24:51,541 --> 01:24:52,083 for example. 814 01:24:52,833 --> 01:24:53,375 Yeah, like that's where 815 01:24:53,375 --> 01:24:54,250 the username and password 816 01:24:54,250 --> 01:24:55,458 could be stored for the 817 01:24:55,458 --> 01:24:57,500 mailbox in IMO, for example, 818 01:24:58,333 --> 01:25:01,916 that like Microsoft Exchange server 819 01:25:02,625 --> 01:25:04,958 could be connected to. 820 01:25:06,500 --> 01:25:08,458 Yeah, and it is really deep in the weeds. 821 01:25:09,208 --> 01:25:11,958 It was something that, 822 01:25:12,291 --> 01:25:13,916 that when I again was 823 01:25:13,916 --> 01:25:17,833 interacting with this protocol, 824 01:25:18,125 --> 01:25:18,500 I was like, there's 825 01:25:18,500 --> 01:25:19,708 gotta be something out there 826 01:25:19,833 --> 01:25:21,000 and the solution's 827 01:25:21,000 --> 01:25:22,541 out there that I tried. 828 01:25:22,791 --> 01:25:24,208 Again, I forked another package 829 01:25:24,833 --> 01:25:26,916 and I was like, why is this so difficult? 830 01:25:27,583 --> 01:25:28,708 It can't be this difficult. 831 01:25:29,250 --> 01:25:31,041 I'm like, there's gotta be a reason why 832 01:25:31,041 --> 01:25:31,625 it's this difficult. 833 01:25:32,041 --> 01:25:33,458 And so I started like 834 01:25:33,458 --> 01:25:35,708 playing with it and I rebuilt 835 01:25:35,708 --> 01:25:37,041 that package, but I had to 836 01:25:37,041 --> 01:25:38,166 eventually throw it all out. 837 01:25:38,791 --> 01:25:40,208 And I started something from scratch 838 01:25:40,416 --> 01:25:41,625 and I've been maintaining it 839 01:25:41,625 --> 01:25:44,666 for probably the last three, 840 01:25:44,666 --> 01:25:46,041 three, four years now. 841 01:25:46,375 --> 01:25:47,833 It's matured quite a lot 842 01:25:47,833 --> 01:25:49,208 and it has actually like 843 01:25:49,208 --> 01:25:51,541 a quite significant amount of downloads. 844 01:25:51,750 --> 01:25:54,041 And I think there is an 845 01:25:54,041 --> 01:25:58,041 untapped market in PHP 846 01:25:58,666 --> 01:26:00,166 in the enterprise, in the 847 01:26:00,166 --> 01:26:01,500 intranet enterprise market 848 01:26:01,791 --> 01:26:03,666 where there's an unseen 849 01:26:03,666 --> 01:26:04,833 amount of people building 850 01:26:05,000 --> 01:26:06,583 their full apps internally 851 01:26:07,083 --> 01:26:07,958 that don't actually do 852 01:26:07,958 --> 01:26:08,833 anything on the outside. 853 01:26:09,291 --> 01:26:09,791 I mean, that's what I 854 01:26:09,791 --> 01:26:10,666 was doing for years. 855 01:26:11,250 --> 01:26:12,875 I wasn't building anything public-facing. 856 01:26:12,875 --> 01:26:14,625 I had maybe, I was lucky 857 01:26:14,625 --> 01:26:16,333 to have maybe 10, 20 users 858 01:26:16,708 --> 01:26:20,125 of the enterprise kind of using my app. 859 01:26:20,500 --> 01:26:21,250 And I felt super 860 01:26:21,250 --> 01:26:23,000 proud of that at the time. 861 01:26:23,416 --> 01:26:24,666 That was a kind of a guess. 862 01:26:24,666 --> 01:26:25,500 I got like 10 people 863 01:26:25,500 --> 01:26:26,625 using this, this is sweet. 864 01:26:27,708 --> 01:26:28,125 That's awesome. 865 01:26:28,541 --> 01:26:31,291 But yeah, it was a really fun experience 866 01:26:31,291 --> 01:26:32,208 and it comes with 867 01:26:32,208 --> 01:26:33,083 trade-offs and benefits, 868 01:26:33,250 --> 01:26:34,916 but it was a lot of fun. 869 01:26:35,791 --> 01:26:37,500 On a personal level, like how, 870 01:26:37,750 --> 01:26:38,750 since you're so big into 871 01:26:38,750 --> 01:26:39,666 like the Microsoft world, 872 01:26:39,875 --> 01:26:41,875 what made you go with PHP 873 01:26:41,875 --> 01:26:45,375 versus like ASP or ASP.net 874 01:26:45,375 --> 01:26:46,875 or whatever is over there now? 875 01:26:47,375 --> 01:26:48,208 That was, when I 876 01:26:48,208 --> 01:26:49,541 started it was PHP or ASP. 877 01:26:49,791 --> 01:26:52,541 Those were your two things or ColdFusion. 878 01:26:53,500 --> 01:26:54,375 So I'm just curious 879 01:26:54,375 --> 01:26:56,000 like why PHP and not ASP 880 01:26:56,000 --> 01:26:57,791 since you're so big 881 01:26:57,791 --> 01:26:58,666 into the Microsoft world? 882 01:26:59,458 --> 01:27:00,208 Yeah, that's actually 883 01:27:00,208 --> 01:27:00,750 a really good question. 884 01:27:01,625 --> 01:27:03,583 When I went to community college, 885 01:27:04,000 --> 01:27:07,583 I was taught C-sharp and PHP 886 01:27:08,375 --> 01:27:09,875 and PHP at the time 887 01:27:09,875 --> 01:27:11,500 just seemed a lot easier 888 01:27:12,208 --> 01:27:14,541 and it was kind of easier 889 01:27:14,541 --> 01:27:15,291 because it wasn't 890 01:27:15,291 --> 01:27:17,333 C-sharp is very strictly typed 891 01:27:17,333 --> 01:27:18,625 and you have to compile everything. 892 01:27:19,208 --> 01:27:21,166 And it was a slow moving process. 893 01:27:21,875 --> 01:27:22,958 I think at the time I 894 01:27:22,958 --> 01:27:24,833 was, I gravitated to PHP 895 01:27:24,833 --> 01:27:25,750 because I could just change 896 01:27:25,750 --> 01:27:27,041 something and refresh the page 897 01:27:27,041 --> 01:27:29,208 and it something happened. 898 01:27:30,125 --> 01:27:30,666 Because every time I 899 01:27:30,666 --> 01:27:31,833 did jump into C-sharp, 900 01:27:32,458 --> 01:27:33,500 change something, click 901 01:27:33,500 --> 01:27:35,250 the compile button and play 902 01:27:35,250 --> 01:27:36,500 and then it rebuilds 903 01:27:36,500 --> 01:27:37,250 and then you're able 904 01:27:37,250 --> 01:27:38,416 to access the new code. 905 01:27:38,666 --> 01:27:40,625 And it was such a hard 906 01:27:40,625 --> 01:27:42,458 process, a hard learning process, 907 01:27:42,458 --> 01:27:43,125 especially back then 908 01:27:43,125 --> 01:27:44,875 we didn't have any AI 909 01:27:45,500 --> 01:27:47,250 to tell you what you're doing wrong 910 01:27:47,250 --> 01:27:47,833 and what you're helping. 911 01:27:48,083 --> 01:27:49,125 It was like, I would spend hours 912 01:27:49,125 --> 01:27:50,333 trying to get something to compile. 913 01:27:51,041 --> 01:27:52,750 And so when I didn't have to 914 01:27:52,750 --> 01:27:54,416 deal with that in PHP land, 915 01:27:54,416 --> 01:27:55,166 it was such a 916 01:27:55,166 --> 01:27:57,375 significant productivity boost 917 01:27:57,750 --> 01:27:58,500 where you just keep like 918 01:27:58,500 --> 01:27:59,416 change something, refresh, 919 01:27:59,625 --> 01:28:00,458 change something, refresh, 920 01:28:00,458 --> 01:28:01,083 change something, refresh, 921 01:28:01,916 --> 01:28:03,750 it just kind of spiraled from there. 922 01:28:03,750 --> 01:28:04,166 And I'm like, okay, 923 01:28:04,166 --> 01:28:04,750 there's definitely something. 924 01:28:05,333 --> 01:28:06,875 I think I can get something going here. 925 01:28:07,250 --> 01:28:08,833 All right, that's cool. 926 01:28:09,041 --> 01:28:10,291 Yeah, my history. 927 01:28:10,666 --> 01:28:12,166 So when I started, it was, 928 01:28:12,416 --> 01:28:14,291 I used front page and then-- 929 01:28:14,750 --> 01:28:15,750 What's that built on? 930 01:28:17,000 --> 01:28:18,291 Microsoft, Microsoft front 931 01:28:18,291 --> 01:28:19,416 page from back in the day. 932 01:28:19,500 --> 01:28:20,708 Oh, right, right, right. 933 01:28:21,166 --> 01:28:21,833 And you didn't use, 934 01:28:22,208 --> 01:28:23,875 basically it was just a WYSIWYG 935 01:28:24,416 --> 01:28:25,416 and you would publish the web. 936 01:28:25,416 --> 01:28:26,291 And I was like, well, I 937 01:28:26,291 --> 01:28:27,916 wanted to build this little app. 938 01:28:28,750 --> 01:28:30,833 And it was, at the time I was like, 939 01:28:30,958 --> 01:28:32,500 I don't know any language. 940 01:28:33,291 --> 01:28:34,416 And, but the internet was like, 941 01:28:34,416 --> 01:28:35,958 you either do ASP or PHP. 942 01:28:36,333 --> 01:28:37,375 So I started doing ASP 943 01:28:37,625 --> 01:28:38,125 because I was already 944 01:28:38,125 --> 01:28:39,000 on a Windows machine. 945 01:28:39,000 --> 01:28:39,750 I was like, oh, this will be good. 946 01:28:40,166 --> 01:28:41,375 But then I started looking at hosting 947 01:28:41,375 --> 01:28:42,791 and like the ASP 948 01:28:42,791 --> 01:28:44,750 hosting was like $20 a month. 949 01:28:44,750 --> 01:28:46,458 And I was like, well, that's dumb. 950 01:28:46,458 --> 01:28:47,208 I'm just gonna PHP. 951 01:28:48,666 --> 01:28:48,708 (laughing) 952 01:28:48,958 --> 01:28:51,125 That's how I found PHP and never left. 953 01:28:51,666 --> 01:28:52,791 Jesus is kind of like an economic 954 01:28:52,791 --> 01:28:53,666 decision at the time. 955 01:28:53,875 --> 01:28:56,333 Yes, it seemed to work out in the end. 956 01:28:56,791 --> 01:28:57,000 But-- 957 01:28:57,791 --> 01:28:59,750 How was your learning 958 01:28:59,750 --> 01:29:01,500 curve with PHP then? 959 01:29:01,500 --> 01:29:03,208 How did you make that migration? 960 01:29:04,708 --> 01:29:07,916 So I was actually working 961 01:29:07,916 --> 01:29:09,208 at a motorcycle dealership 962 01:29:09,375 --> 01:29:10,583 in sales and I was like, 963 01:29:10,583 --> 01:29:12,041 we need a way to show our 964 01:29:12,041 --> 01:29:13,333 inventory on the internet. 965 01:29:13,791 --> 01:29:15,500 And that sort of got me, so I 966 01:29:15,500 --> 01:29:16,500 just wanted to build an app. 967 01:29:16,500 --> 01:29:19,291 I had no programming experience at all. 968 01:29:20,000 --> 01:29:21,333 And so back then you 969 01:29:21,333 --> 01:29:22,333 would just go visit forums, 970 01:29:22,541 --> 01:29:23,500 ask questions, read 971 01:29:23,500 --> 01:29:24,833 questions, try to help out. 972 01:29:25,041 --> 01:29:26,000 And that's how I kind 973 01:29:26,000 --> 01:29:27,083 of sort of picked up PHP 974 01:29:27,416 --> 01:29:28,500 and figured it all out. 975 01:29:29,458 --> 01:29:31,166 So this was way back. 976 01:29:31,166 --> 01:29:32,875 This was before CSS was around. 977 01:29:33,333 --> 01:29:35,541 It was everything was tables, spacer 978 01:29:35,541 --> 01:29:36,583 gifs, stuff like that. 979 01:29:37,000 --> 01:29:38,375 So it was way back. 980 01:29:39,125 --> 01:29:40,708 When did you personally 981 01:29:40,708 --> 01:29:42,333 discover like Laravel? 982 01:29:43,750 --> 01:29:47,000 So for me, I went from just straight PHP 983 01:29:47,375 --> 01:29:49,791 and then moved into found code igniter 984 01:29:49,791 --> 01:29:51,541 and I was like, oh, this is really good. 985 01:29:53,375 --> 01:29:55,041 And then as soon as I found Laravel, 986 01:29:55,083 --> 01:29:56,958 which was like version, I don't know, 987 01:29:56,958 --> 01:29:58,750 it was super early and Laravel, 988 01:29:58,750 --> 01:30:00,291 because Laravel went from 989 01:30:00,291 --> 01:30:01,500 like version one to three 990 01:30:01,500 --> 01:30:03,208 within a matter of six months probably. 991 01:30:03,500 --> 01:30:05,041 So it was somewhere in that range is 992 01:30:05,041 --> 01:30:06,375 where I found Laravel 993 01:30:06,958 --> 01:30:08,541 and I just never left. 994 01:30:08,541 --> 01:30:09,625 I was like, this is great. 995 01:30:09,625 --> 01:30:10,041 I love it. 996 01:30:10,041 --> 01:30:11,916 I like the way Taylor, 997 01:30:12,416 --> 01:30:13,625 his ideas going forward. 998 01:30:13,791 --> 01:30:15,000 So I just kind of stuck with 999 01:30:15,000 --> 01:30:16,583 it and the rest is history. 1000 01:30:17,083 --> 01:30:17,750 So I guess that was 1001 01:30:17,750 --> 01:30:19,208 what, 13 years ago, 12? 1002 01:30:19,500 --> 01:30:20,416 I don't know, it feels longer, 1003 01:30:20,833 --> 01:30:22,833 but it could be shorter though too. 1004 01:30:23,750 --> 01:30:27,000 Were you in the version three round then 1005 01:30:27,208 --> 01:30:27,625 when you started 1006 01:30:27,625 --> 01:30:29,208 building with it or at four? 1007 01:30:29,208 --> 01:30:29,500 Oh yeah. 1008 01:30:30,333 --> 01:30:31,791 No, I was in the round 1009 01:30:31,791 --> 01:30:33,416 when it didn't have anything 1010 01:30:33,583 --> 01:30:35,500 but just the really simple route. 1011 01:30:36,625 --> 01:30:38,041 Like, I forgot what, 1012 01:30:38,416 --> 01:30:40,958 anyway, it was like sort of right 1013 01:30:41,000 --> 01:30:42,250 after the first 1014 01:30:42,250 --> 01:30:45,166 announcement of where Laravel came out. 1015 01:30:46,166 --> 01:30:48,041 It like didn't have models or controllers 1016 01:30:48,458 --> 01:30:50,166 or anything back then. 1017 01:30:50,500 --> 01:30:51,833 Oh, it was very verbal, okay. 1018 01:30:51,958 --> 01:30:53,083 Yeah, so it was really early 1019 01:30:53,083 --> 01:30:54,166 and really, really, 1020 01:30:54,166 --> 01:30:55,416 really a long time ago. 1021 01:30:57,125 --> 01:30:58,583 But yeah, it's a, 1022 01:30:59,250 --> 01:31:00,583 yeah, back then it was IRC. 1023 01:31:00,583 --> 01:31:02,250 We all just chatted on our IRC. 1024 01:31:04,208 --> 01:31:05,000 So old, yeah. 1025 01:31:07,000 --> 01:31:08,000 Back in the good old days. 1026 01:31:08,333 --> 01:31:09,250 Yeah, yeah, no kidding. 1027 01:31:11,458 --> 01:31:12,541 Well, to go back to 1028 01:31:12,541 --> 01:31:13,416 what you're working on, 1029 01:31:13,666 --> 01:31:15,000 any other projects and stuff 1030 01:31:15,125 --> 01:31:17,416 that you've been working on 1031 01:31:17,416 --> 01:31:18,916 recently or you have launched? 1032 01:31:19,625 --> 01:31:20,291 Yeah, well, I'm 1033 01:31:20,291 --> 01:31:22,708 actually working on a product 1034 01:31:22,708 --> 01:31:23,541 that I didn't think that 1035 01:31:23,541 --> 01:31:26,250 I would ever really think 1036 01:31:26,250 --> 01:31:27,958 I'd be able to build is I'm 1037 01:31:27,958 --> 01:31:30,666 working on my own email client, 1038 01:31:31,083 --> 01:31:33,375 actually, so my own desktop email client. 1039 01:31:33,791 --> 01:31:34,708 And maybe I can ship it 1040 01:31:34,708 --> 01:31:35,958 on a phone at some point 1041 01:31:36,500 --> 01:31:37,708 because I've been an 1042 01:31:37,708 --> 01:31:40,250 Outlook user for my whole life. 1043 01:31:40,625 --> 01:31:41,791 Not really by choice, 1044 01:31:41,791 --> 01:31:42,625 it's just kind of landed. 1045 01:31:43,208 --> 01:31:44,625 And Outlook just when I was a kid 1046 01:31:44,625 --> 01:31:45,458 and I just have used it 1047 01:31:45,458 --> 01:31:46,583 for my whole life and stuff. 1048 01:31:46,625 --> 01:31:47,666 But I've been kind of 1049 01:31:47,666 --> 01:31:50,041 getting a little bit upset 1050 01:31:50,041 --> 01:31:51,708 with the recent changes with Outlook. 1051 01:31:51,916 --> 01:31:52,708 And so I'm like, I wonder 1052 01:31:52,708 --> 01:31:55,791 now that I've built my own 1053 01:31:57,708 --> 01:31:59,916 engine for connecting to IMAP, 1054 01:31:59,916 --> 01:32:00,416 I wonder if I could 1055 01:32:00,416 --> 01:32:02,041 build my own email client 1056 01:32:02,500 --> 01:32:03,875 that I would love to use. 1057 01:32:04,250 --> 01:32:05,833 And maybe others would love to use. 1058 01:32:05,833 --> 01:32:06,625 That is just super 1059 01:32:06,625 --> 01:32:08,000 simple, it's just emails 1060 01:32:08,291 --> 01:32:12,958 and no AI nonsense, no trash all over. 1061 01:32:13,416 --> 01:32:15,291 Because I think all these email clients, 1062 01:32:15,375 --> 01:32:16,000 the same with Gmail 1063 01:32:16,000 --> 01:32:19,291 and they become so heavy 1064 01:32:19,500 --> 01:32:20,875 and convoluted with features 1065 01:32:20,875 --> 01:32:22,041 that you don't want or need. 1066 01:32:22,041 --> 01:32:22,916 It's like, I just want 1067 01:32:22,916 --> 01:32:24,958 my inbox, my folders, 1068 01:32:25,666 --> 01:32:28,000 and my email with a basic 1069 01:32:28,000 --> 01:32:29,791 like markdown editor if possible. 1070 01:32:30,208 --> 01:32:32,000 And that's it, like I don't need anything 1071 01:32:32,000 --> 01:32:32,750 else other than that. 1072 01:32:33,125 --> 01:32:34,708 So I'm wanting to, 1073 01:32:35,208 --> 01:32:36,083 I'm right now building, 1074 01:32:36,750 --> 01:32:38,000 using native PHP 1075 01:32:38,000 --> 01:32:40,000 actually, Simon's native PHP, 1076 01:32:40,583 --> 01:32:41,916 I'm building on top of. 1077 01:32:42,958 --> 01:32:44,375 So I'm gonna see if I can make it happen. 1078 01:32:45,250 --> 01:32:46,166 I was gonna, that was 1079 01:32:46,166 --> 01:32:47,625 actually gonna be my next question, 1080 01:32:47,625 --> 01:32:48,500 is what you're building it on. 1081 01:32:48,750 --> 01:32:50,041 So native PHP seems like a 1082 01:32:50,041 --> 01:32:51,250 perfect pairing for that. 1083 01:32:52,125 --> 01:32:52,291 Yeah. 1084 01:32:52,541 --> 01:32:56,625 And yeah, it's funny, like every year, 1085 01:32:57,583 --> 01:32:58,916 I guess email clients are 1086 01:32:58,916 --> 01:33:00,000 sort of like to-do apps. 1087 01:33:00,000 --> 01:33:00,833 Like every year I go 1088 01:33:00,833 --> 01:33:02,791 searching for a new email app 1089 01:33:02,875 --> 01:33:05,250 and nothing is like perfect. 1090 01:33:05,500 --> 01:33:06,875 It's like, surely 1091 01:33:06,875 --> 01:33:08,125 something out there is perfect, 1092 01:33:08,125 --> 01:33:09,791 but it's like, I've yet to find it yet. 1093 01:33:10,666 --> 01:33:12,000 So I think there's 1094 01:33:12,000 --> 01:33:13,500 always a market for email apps 1095 01:33:13,500 --> 01:33:14,375 and to-do apps. 1096 01:33:15,041 --> 01:33:16,833 Yeah, yeah, like there's 1097 01:33:16,833 --> 01:33:19,000 always something wrong about it 1098 01:33:19,041 --> 01:33:21,416 or the company you download it from 1099 01:33:21,416 --> 01:33:22,666 is pushing one kind 1100 01:33:22,666 --> 01:33:23,625 of service or another, 1101 01:33:24,000 --> 01:33:25,291 or they want you to pay a 1102 01:33:25,291 --> 01:33:26,416 subscription or something. 1103 01:33:26,666 --> 01:33:27,375 And it's like, can I 1104 01:33:27,375 --> 01:33:29,333 just get like an email app 1105 01:33:29,333 --> 01:33:31,250 that just does email and that's it? 1106 01:33:31,250 --> 01:33:32,500 Like just super bare 1107 01:33:32,500 --> 01:33:33,833 bones and a clean interface, 1108 01:33:33,833 --> 01:33:35,333 that's all I need and that's all I want. 1109 01:33:36,208 --> 01:33:37,375 And all these companies 1110 01:33:37,375 --> 01:33:38,958 are just trying to add 1111 01:33:39,041 --> 01:33:40,000 all these services on 1112 01:33:40,000 --> 01:33:41,666 and especially AI, right? 1113 01:33:41,666 --> 01:33:42,500 Like the AI craze, 1114 01:33:42,708 --> 01:33:43,375 everyone is trying to 1115 01:33:43,375 --> 01:33:44,583 get them at AI craze 1116 01:33:44,583 --> 01:33:46,916 to slap services in your email. 1117 01:33:47,458 --> 01:33:48,833 And I don't want any of that. 1118 01:33:48,833 --> 01:33:49,583 I want like the spam 1119 01:33:49,583 --> 01:33:52,041 protection service that I'm using. 1120 01:33:52,041 --> 01:33:54,416 Like I want just the emails filtered out 1121 01:33:54,416 --> 01:33:55,208 that I shouldn't see, 1122 01:33:55,583 --> 01:33:57,333 but when it comes to actually like 1123 01:33:57,333 --> 01:33:58,333 looking at my email, 1124 01:33:58,583 --> 01:33:59,666 interacting with my email, 1125 01:33:59,666 --> 01:34:00,791 sending emails, replying, 1126 01:34:01,000 --> 01:34:02,000 I want that to be a really 1127 01:34:02,000 --> 01:34:04,333 clean and bare bones experience 1128 01:34:04,750 --> 01:34:07,250 where there's no nonsense, you know? 1129 01:34:08,250 --> 01:34:11,958 Yes, speaking of AI, the best use case, 1130 01:34:11,958 --> 01:34:13,416 I think I've seen in an 1131 01:34:13,416 --> 01:34:16,625 email is it's through the search 1132 01:34:16,833 --> 01:34:18,833 and you can be like, you know, 1133 01:34:19,041 --> 01:34:20,666 what meetings do I have tomorrow? 1134 01:34:21,041 --> 01:34:22,000 And it'll go through all 1135 01:34:22,000 --> 01:34:23,041 your emails and be like, 1136 01:34:23,041 --> 01:34:24,625 these are, you know, these are things 1137 01:34:24,708 --> 01:34:26,083 that might be coming up due 1138 01:34:26,083 --> 01:34:27,416 tomorrow, things like that, 1139 01:34:27,416 --> 01:34:28,166 which is kind of neat, 1140 01:34:28,833 --> 01:34:31,375 especially when you have it like talk to 1141 01:34:31,375 --> 01:34:32,083 somebody in a while. 1142 01:34:32,083 --> 01:34:32,708 It's like, when's the last 1143 01:34:32,708 --> 01:34:34,291 time I talked to, you know, 1144 01:34:35,666 --> 01:34:38,041 John, and it'll just pop up and be like, 1145 01:34:38,208 --> 01:34:39,000 here's all the John's 1146 01:34:39,000 --> 01:34:39,791 you've talked to recently. 1147 01:34:40,250 --> 01:34:40,833 Things like that I 1148 01:34:40,833 --> 01:34:42,083 found kind of interesting. 1149 01:34:43,250 --> 01:34:44,250 Interesting, Abhiu, is 1150 01:34:44,250 --> 01:34:45,500 there an email client right now 1151 01:34:45,500 --> 01:34:47,583 or email service that does that for you? 1152 01:34:48,250 --> 01:34:50,125 Yeah, it's, speaking of 1153 01:34:50,125 --> 01:34:51,541 subscriptions, it's superhuman, 1154 01:34:51,958 --> 01:34:53,583 but it does all that 1155 01:34:53,583 --> 01:34:54,791 with its AI integration, 1156 01:34:55,041 --> 01:34:56,291 but it does a lot more to that. 1157 01:34:56,583 --> 01:34:57,791 That's really the only use case 1158 01:34:57,791 --> 01:34:59,458 that I've actually enjoyed for the AI. 1159 01:34:59,916 --> 01:35:01,833 The rest of it's just like more 1160 01:35:01,833 --> 01:35:02,583 annoyance, you know, 1161 01:35:02,625 --> 01:35:04,291 where it tries to rewrite your, you know, 1162 01:35:04,750 --> 01:35:06,250 it tries to be like a Grammarly 1163 01:35:06,250 --> 01:35:07,625 and like rewrite how you're 1164 01:35:07,625 --> 01:35:08,708 writing and stuff like that. 1165 01:35:08,958 --> 01:35:09,125 Exactly. 1166 01:35:09,166 --> 01:35:10,166 And I hate all that. 1167 01:35:10,458 --> 01:35:11,416 Oh my gosh, yeah. 1168 01:35:11,708 --> 01:35:13,500 Just let me write in my natural tone. 1169 01:35:13,916 --> 01:35:14,791 Yeah, and you know, 1170 01:35:14,791 --> 01:35:15,708 that's so funny you say that 1171 01:35:15,708 --> 01:35:17,500 because the whole 1172 01:35:17,500 --> 01:35:19,000 issue I have with Outlook 1173 01:35:19,208 --> 01:35:20,000 and why I'm building 1174 01:35:20,000 --> 01:35:21,375 this email client now 1175 01:35:22,208 --> 01:35:23,333 is because Outlook 1176 01:35:23,333 --> 01:35:25,041 recently introduced CoPilot 1177 01:35:25,333 --> 01:35:26,416 in their writing experience. 1178 01:35:26,750 --> 01:35:29,333 And so as you type, it shows what they 1179 01:35:29,333 --> 01:35:30,375 think you want to say 1180 01:35:30,750 --> 01:35:31,583 after you're typing. Oh yeah, yes. 1181 01:35:31,875 --> 01:35:33,541 Kind of like in an editor in a way, 1182 01:35:33,875 --> 01:35:35,333 but in editor it helps more. 1183 01:35:35,333 --> 01:35:36,666 It's like I don't need 1184 01:35:36,666 --> 01:35:37,833 help to write an email, 1185 01:35:38,041 --> 01:35:39,833 like stop it and I can't disable it. 1186 01:35:40,125 --> 01:35:42,416 And so now I'm 1187 01:35:42,416 --> 01:35:43,625 building my own email client 1188 01:35:44,208 --> 01:35:45,375 so that no one can mess 1189 01:35:45,375 --> 01:35:46,458 with my email experience. 1190 01:35:47,708 --> 01:35:48,250 That's great. 1191 01:35:48,750 --> 01:35:50,250 That's the new age of clipping, right? 1192 01:35:50,541 --> 01:35:51,958 You know. Yeah, yeah. 1193 01:35:52,666 --> 01:35:53,166 Please stop. 1194 01:35:54,000 --> 01:35:54,958 Please let me know. 1195 01:35:56,291 --> 01:35:57,375 That's wild though, yeah. 1196 01:35:57,791 --> 01:35:58,791 That's probably my 1197 01:35:58,791 --> 01:35:59,916 biggest annoyance with AI 1198 01:36:00,083 --> 01:36:02,083 is the things like that. 1199 01:36:02,083 --> 01:36:02,833 I know Google, like 1200 01:36:02,833 --> 01:36:04,250 Gmail wants to do that too. 1201 01:36:04,250 --> 01:36:05,000 I don't know if you, 1202 01:36:05,416 --> 01:36:06,375 well, since you use Outlook, 1203 01:36:06,375 --> 01:36:07,208 you probably don't use Gmail. 1204 01:36:07,208 --> 01:36:09,125 But as you write in the Gmail interface, 1205 01:36:09,125 --> 01:36:09,958 it tries to 1206 01:36:09,958 --> 01:36:11,791 auto-complete and do all this stuff. 1207 01:36:12,625 --> 01:36:13,875 And it's the same way, it just, 1208 01:36:14,125 --> 01:36:15,166 to me that gets on my nerves. 1209 01:36:15,666 --> 01:36:17,333 And the other one that gets on my nerves 1210 01:36:17,458 --> 01:36:20,083 is actually Grammarly, you know, 1211 01:36:20,083 --> 01:36:21,333 because I write a lot of 1212 01:36:21,333 --> 01:36:22,208 articles for liberal news, 1213 01:36:22,208 --> 01:36:23,458 so I use Grammarly to try 1214 01:36:23,458 --> 01:36:25,291 to help me fix the spelling 1215 01:36:25,375 --> 01:36:26,500 mistakes and commas 1216 01:36:26,500 --> 01:36:27,250 and all that other stuff. 1217 01:36:27,625 --> 01:36:28,666 But now it's like, well, 1218 01:36:29,000 --> 01:36:29,416 you should just 1219 01:36:29,416 --> 01:36:30,541 rewrite this whole sentence. 1220 01:36:30,875 --> 01:36:32,625 And then they like, it loses context. 1221 01:36:32,916 --> 01:36:34,250 It's like, it just don't 1222 01:36:34,250 --> 01:36:35,291 even sound like something 1223 01:36:35,291 --> 01:36:36,291 I would write in the first place. 1224 01:36:36,916 --> 01:36:38,708 And that part's very 1225 01:36:38,708 --> 01:36:39,625 annoying with the AI. 1226 01:36:40,333 --> 01:36:41,208 Yeah, yeah, 100%. 1227 01:36:42,166 --> 01:36:43,416 And I think I've gotten to the point. 1228 01:36:44,416 --> 01:36:46,000 There's a lot of AI tools right now 1229 01:36:46,125 --> 01:36:49,666 that really are trying to 1230 01:36:49,666 --> 01:36:52,958 not get you to write things, 1231 01:36:53,958 --> 01:36:54,958 even though they should be, 1232 01:36:55,166 --> 01:36:56,291 like things that should 1233 01:36:56,291 --> 01:36:58,166 be personal and authentic. 1234 01:36:58,666 --> 01:37:00,583 And I think email and text messages 1235 01:37:01,250 --> 01:37:03,291 and posts on social media, 1236 01:37:03,291 --> 01:37:04,916 these are really like 1237 01:37:04,916 --> 01:37:06,541 services that you should be posting 1238 01:37:06,666 --> 01:37:07,750 things that are authentic 1239 01:37:07,750 --> 01:37:09,458 and stuff that you would write. 1240 01:37:10,000 --> 01:37:11,750 And these services are trying to get, 1241 01:37:12,000 --> 01:37:13,500 like trying to shovel or 1242 01:37:13,500 --> 01:37:14,708 pigeonhole themselves in 1243 01:37:14,750 --> 01:37:16,000 and be like, no, it's okay. 1244 01:37:16,000 --> 01:37:16,708 Like we'll thank for 1245 01:37:16,708 --> 01:37:17,583 you, we'll write for you. 1246 01:37:17,958 --> 01:37:19,000 And say, I don't want that. 1247 01:37:19,291 --> 01:37:20,625 I'm like, I'm okay with like 1248 01:37:20,625 --> 01:37:23,708 code kind of being pushed in 1249 01:37:23,708 --> 01:37:25,041 and I can touch it up and 1250 01:37:25,041 --> 01:37:25,916 change it and everything. 1251 01:37:26,000 --> 01:37:27,875 But when it comes to 1252 01:37:27,875 --> 01:37:30,125 those personal services 1253 01:37:30,500 --> 01:37:31,916 that require authenticity, 1254 01:37:32,500 --> 01:37:33,333 I'd rather be okay 1255 01:37:33,333 --> 01:37:34,416 with making the mistake 1256 01:37:35,333 --> 01:37:37,083 of like grammar mistakes and stuff 1257 01:37:37,083 --> 01:37:37,833 and showing that 1258 01:37:37,833 --> 01:37:39,500 nowadays, especially nowadays, 1259 01:37:39,791 --> 01:37:42,875 because all the AI slop that we're seeing 1260 01:37:42,875 --> 01:37:44,875 and Twitter and Facebook 1261 01:37:44,875 --> 01:37:46,833 and all these posts, right? 1262 01:37:46,958 --> 01:37:48,291 Everyone's using AI to write stuff. 1263 01:37:49,416 --> 01:37:51,750 Yeah, yeah, that's very true. 1264 01:37:52,750 --> 01:37:54,500 It's almost like 1265 01:37:54,500 --> 01:37:56,333 mistakes are now more authentic 1266 01:37:56,333 --> 01:37:57,291 and it makes you 1267 01:37:57,291 --> 01:37:58,708 feel, makes it more human 1268 01:37:58,708 --> 01:38:00,208 than perfect writing. 1269 01:38:00,583 --> 01:38:02,000 Exactly, which is such a 1270 01:38:02,000 --> 01:38:03,166 weird circle of events. 1271 01:38:03,833 --> 01:38:05,625 Yeah, well, even the kids, 1272 01:38:05,916 --> 01:38:08,125 like I've got two kids in high school now 1273 01:38:08,125 --> 01:38:09,583 and when they do their reports, 1274 01:38:10,625 --> 01:38:12,291 if they don't make any mistakes 1275 01:38:12,291 --> 01:38:12,833 then the teachers 1276 01:38:12,833 --> 01:38:13,625 thinks they're cheating. 1277 01:38:14,458 --> 01:38:16,208 So it's like, there's this whole like 1278 01:38:16,208 --> 01:38:17,791 weird dynamic going on 1279 01:38:17,791 --> 01:38:19,916 where they can't trust anything anymore 1280 01:38:19,916 --> 01:38:20,916 unless there's mistakes in it. 1281 01:38:21,041 --> 01:38:21,708 It's like, what? 1282 01:38:23,750 --> 01:38:26,125 Gosh, I wonder what the experience 1283 01:38:26,250 --> 01:38:28,125 of elementary school and 1284 01:38:28,125 --> 01:38:29,375 high school would be right now 1285 01:38:29,500 --> 01:38:32,250 with AI, that'd be interesting. 1286 01:38:32,250 --> 01:38:33,000 And your kids are loving it. 1287 01:38:33,833 --> 01:38:35,541 Yeah, I remember now 1288 01:38:35,541 --> 01:38:37,000 this probably ages me. 1289 01:38:37,250 --> 01:38:41,041 So I took typewriting in high school 1290 01:38:41,500 --> 01:38:45,000 and the guy that sat beside me, 1291 01:38:45,000 --> 01:38:45,958 of course we were on like, 1292 01:38:45,958 --> 01:38:49,041 you know, 1992 Windows machines 1293 01:38:49,500 --> 01:38:51,250 but he taught me how to copy and paste. 1294 01:38:51,500 --> 01:38:52,083 And I was like, 1295 01:38:53,083 --> 01:38:53,500 cause you know, you'd 1296 01:38:53,500 --> 01:38:54,416 have to write the same line 1297 01:38:54,416 --> 01:38:56,333 like four times and that was like, 1298 01:38:56,625 --> 01:38:57,666 oh, this is the future, 1299 01:38:57,666 --> 01:38:58,625 this is the best thing ever. 1300 01:38:59,291 --> 01:39:00,000 And now it's just like 1301 01:39:00,000 --> 01:39:01,791 AI can just do everything. 1302 01:39:02,083 --> 01:39:03,208 Oh my gosh, that's crazy. 1303 01:39:03,791 --> 01:39:04,708 You have such a nice frame 1304 01:39:04,708 --> 01:39:05,833 of reference though, right? 1305 01:39:06,208 --> 01:39:07,541 But it's so 1306 01:39:07,541 --> 01:39:09,333 interesting because, you know, 1307 01:39:10,500 --> 01:39:13,833 you would think that you 1308 01:39:13,833 --> 01:39:15,250 would show anyone, you know, 1309 01:39:15,458 --> 01:39:16,791 from that distance of time, 1310 01:39:17,000 --> 01:39:18,833 if you transported them to now, 1311 01:39:19,291 --> 01:39:21,666 their mind would be absolutely shattered. 1312 01:39:21,666 --> 01:39:22,958 They're like, how is this possible? 1313 01:39:22,958 --> 01:39:24,833 This is like a machine God 1314 01:39:24,833 --> 01:39:26,416 we're speaking with right now. 1315 01:39:27,375 --> 01:39:28,291 But because it's been 1316 01:39:28,291 --> 01:39:29,958 such a gradual increase 1317 01:39:30,166 --> 01:39:32,208 of intelligence, we're kind 1318 01:39:32,208 --> 01:39:33,791 of warmed into it, you know, 1319 01:39:33,791 --> 01:39:35,541 gradually warmed into it. 1320 01:39:36,000 --> 01:39:36,750 And so it's not as 1321 01:39:36,750 --> 01:39:38,458 shocking as it should be 1322 01:39:38,458 --> 01:39:40,041 but it is actually so 1323 01:39:40,041 --> 01:39:42,166 shocking to where we are right now. 1324 01:39:42,166 --> 01:39:43,583 The intelligence is actually wild. 1325 01:39:44,541 --> 01:39:46,750 Yeah, well, that sort of reminds me too. 1326 01:39:47,125 --> 01:39:48,041 I know we're getting so 1327 01:39:48,041 --> 01:39:48,916 kind of off the subject 1328 01:39:49,000 --> 01:39:50,166 but when I first 1329 01:39:50,166 --> 01:39:53,125 started, I really struggled 1330 01:39:53,375 --> 01:39:55,166 on like comprehending 1331 01:39:55,166 --> 01:39:56,750 you had a web server, 1332 01:39:57,333 --> 01:39:58,666 you had a database server, 1333 01:39:59,125 --> 01:40:00,791 and then you had the browser 1334 01:40:01,416 --> 01:40:04,250 and how those all pieces fit together. 1335 01:40:04,250 --> 01:40:05,000 Cause like I could not 1336 01:40:05,000 --> 01:40:06,875 comprehend this database thing 1337 01:40:07,041 --> 01:40:08,500 and how we connect to it 1338 01:40:08,500 --> 01:40:09,500 and talk to it and all this. 1339 01:40:10,000 --> 01:40:10,500 And then all of a 1340 01:40:10,500 --> 01:40:11,125 sudden one day it clicked 1341 01:40:11,125 --> 01:40:12,458 and it's like, well, I was 1342 01:40:12,458 --> 01:40:13,541 sort of an idiot back then, 1343 01:40:13,541 --> 01:40:14,625 you know, but now it's 1344 01:40:14,625 --> 01:40:15,708 just like common knowledge 1345 01:40:15,708 --> 01:40:16,541 that everybody knows. 1346 01:40:16,541 --> 01:40:18,291 It's like, oh yeah, it's basics. 1347 01:40:18,875 --> 01:40:19,541 But we didn't have video 1348 01:40:19,541 --> 01:40:20,625 tutorials back then either. 1349 01:40:20,625 --> 01:40:21,208 You know, it was just 1350 01:40:21,208 --> 01:40:22,375 what you could find. 1351 01:40:23,083 --> 01:40:25,500 Yeah, I mean, yeah, that was so new. 1352 01:40:26,000 --> 01:40:27,875 I mean, MVC, the MVC 1353 01:40:27,875 --> 01:40:30,166 pattern was super, super new 1354 01:40:30,416 --> 01:40:31,500 at that time for sure. 1355 01:40:32,166 --> 01:40:35,125 And figuring out how to do that properly 1356 01:40:35,500 --> 01:40:36,500 and make it feel 1357 01:40:36,500 --> 01:40:38,208 right was very difficult. 1358 01:40:38,916 --> 01:40:40,458 You know, cause when I, I'm 1359 01:40:40,458 --> 01:40:41,208 sure you remember this one 1360 01:40:41,375 --> 01:40:42,583 when PHP first got 1361 01:40:42,583 --> 01:40:44,250 around, everyone was kind of, 1362 01:40:44,875 --> 01:40:47,041 you'd have a form and 1363 01:40:47,041 --> 01:40:48,958 you'd inject PHP tags 1364 01:40:48,958 --> 01:40:49,916 at the top of a form to 1365 01:40:49,916 --> 01:40:51,625 like handle the form submission 1366 01:40:51,958 --> 01:40:53,541 in its own page. 1367 01:40:53,958 --> 01:40:56,000 And that would also like 1368 01:40:56,000 --> 01:40:57,625 execute like a SQL query 1369 01:40:57,625 --> 01:40:59,750 to the backend database and stuff. 1370 01:40:59,750 --> 01:41:02,041 And it was so ugly and it was weird. 1371 01:41:02,291 --> 01:41:02,833 And everyone was trying to 1372 01:41:02,833 --> 01:41:04,083 figure out how does this work? 1373 01:41:04,083 --> 01:41:04,958 How do we make this work? 1374 01:41:07,041 --> 01:41:08,333 Yeah, well, I remember like 1375 01:41:08,333 --> 01:41:09,875 PHP didn't even have classes, 1376 01:41:09,875 --> 01:41:11,000 you know, back, I want to 1377 01:41:11,000 --> 01:41:13,083 say PHP four days or, you know. 1378 01:41:13,083 --> 01:41:13,750 Yeah, that's right. 1379 01:41:14,125 --> 01:41:14,875 It was only functions. 1380 01:41:15,708 --> 01:41:16,666 You could only write functions. 1381 01:41:17,791 --> 01:41:19,041 It's crazy just how far 1382 01:41:19,041 --> 01:41:20,833 we've came in the last 20 years, 1383 01:41:21,250 --> 01:41:23,000 you know, I guess 24 years, 1384 01:41:23,000 --> 01:41:23,500 cause this would have been 1385 01:41:23,500 --> 01:41:24,875 early night or late nineties, 1386 01:41:24,875 --> 01:41:26,791 early 2000s when I was around. 1387 01:41:27,083 --> 01:41:29,041 But yeah, it's just, that part's crazy. 1388 01:41:29,041 --> 01:41:30,125 Just thinking about it. 1389 01:41:30,125 --> 01:41:30,625 Yeah, not having 1390 01:41:30,625 --> 01:41:31,916 classes, that would be wild. 1391 01:41:32,208 --> 01:41:34,416 I've never had PHP 1392 01:41:34,416 --> 01:41:35,833 without that functionality. 1393 01:41:36,333 --> 01:41:38,541 So you were there for the glory days. 1394 01:41:39,583 --> 01:41:41,333 I mean, I'm thinking they didn't, 1395 01:41:41,500 --> 01:41:42,458 I mean, nobody used them. 1396 01:41:42,458 --> 01:41:43,083 I think you're right, yeah. 1397 01:41:43,500 --> 01:41:44,333 If they did have classes, 1398 01:41:44,333 --> 01:41:45,666 I don't remember ever seeing a class 1399 01:41:45,666 --> 01:41:47,458 until like PHP five, 1400 01:41:47,666 --> 01:41:49,333 but I could be totally, totally 1401 01:41:49,333 --> 01:41:50,375 misremembering this stuff. 1402 01:41:50,916 --> 01:41:52,333 You know, I am getting old now. 1403 01:41:52,333 --> 01:41:54,125 I'm quite forgetful. 1404 01:41:56,458 --> 01:41:58,250 But I don't want to do 1405 01:41:58,250 --> 01:41:59,250 this all day, you know, 1406 01:41:59,250 --> 01:41:59,833 I don't want to keep you 1407 01:41:59,833 --> 01:42:02,083 from family life and other life, 1408 01:42:02,291 --> 01:42:04,750 but anything else to work on that we miss 1409 01:42:04,750 --> 01:42:05,291 that you want to bring 1410 01:42:05,291 --> 01:42:07,458 up or people to check out? 1411 01:42:09,916 --> 01:42:10,583 Well, I wouldn't like 1412 01:42:10,583 --> 01:42:11,625 to check out iMap Engine. 1413 01:42:11,916 --> 01:42:13,875 Just take a look and 1414 01:42:13,875 --> 01:42:15,791 if they're interested 1415 01:42:16,000 --> 01:42:17,458 in viewing how it works, 1416 01:42:17,458 --> 01:42:19,125 or if they're thinking about 1417 01:42:19,125 --> 01:42:20,250 building a project with it, 1418 01:42:20,250 --> 01:42:22,500 it'd be nice to give it a 1419 01:42:22,500 --> 01:42:23,125 start if you're interested 1420 01:42:23,416 --> 01:42:25,041 and take a look and all 1421 01:42:25,041 --> 01:42:26,250 the other open source work 1422 01:42:26,250 --> 01:42:26,833 that I have. 1423 01:42:27,583 --> 01:42:29,333 I think they might find 1424 01:42:29,333 --> 01:42:30,708 things that are useful 1425 01:42:30,708 --> 01:42:32,083 they could build with. 1426 01:42:32,791 --> 01:42:36,166 And I really tried really hard. 1427 01:42:36,375 --> 01:42:37,375 I tried really hard in 1428 01:42:37,375 --> 01:42:38,250 all my open source stuff 1429 01:42:38,291 --> 01:42:40,333 to make sure that the 1430 01:42:40,333 --> 01:42:41,333 developer experiences 1431 01:42:41,666 --> 01:42:45,875 is top tier to what my own standards. 1432 01:42:47,541 --> 01:42:48,208 I love that. 1433 01:42:48,208 --> 01:42:48,791 I love that. 1434 01:42:48,791 --> 01:42:50,875 Well, I want to say thank you 1435 01:42:50,875 --> 01:42:52,500 again for coming on the show 1436 01:42:52,500 --> 01:42:53,708 and talking about all 1437 01:42:53,708 --> 01:42:57,375 this very nerdy email stuff 1438 01:42:57,541 --> 01:43:00,166 and active record and all the fun things. 1439 01:43:00,208 --> 01:43:01,916 I can talk about it for days. 1440 01:43:02,333 --> 01:43:03,333 I'm so invested. 1441 01:43:05,000 --> 01:43:06,500 Ask me anything about the RFC 1442 01:43:06,833 --> 01:43:07,458 and I'll tell you. 1443 01:43:09,333 --> 01:43:10,916 (laughing) That's great. 1444 01:43:12,291 --> 01:43:13,208 Oh, that's fun. 1445 01:43:13,708 --> 01:43:14,333 Well, Steve, I want to 1446 01:43:14,333 --> 01:43:15,375 thank you again for coming on 1447 01:43:15,500 --> 01:43:17,500 and everybody I'll have all the links 1448 01:43:17,500 --> 01:43:19,041 that we talked about in the show notes 1449 01:43:19,208 --> 01:43:22,000 and we'll have a post on Laravel News 1450 01:43:22,166 --> 01:43:24,625 dedicated to all this and everything. 1451 01:43:24,958 --> 01:43:26,208 So thanks for tuning 1452 01:43:26,208 --> 01:43:27,791 in and until next time. 1453 01:43:28,208 --> 01:43:28,791 Thank you so much.