WEBVTT NOTE This file was generated by Descript 00:00:00.170 --> 00:00:01.120 Rupert Isaacson: Thanks for joining us. 00:00:01.190 --> 00:00:03.230 Welcome to Live Free, Ride Free. 00:00:03.410 --> 00:00:06.810 I'm your host, Rupert Isaacson, New York Times bestselling author of 00:00:06.830 --> 00:00:08.389 The Horseboy and The Long Ride Home. 00:00:08.450 --> 00:00:13.089 Before I jump in with today's guest, I want to say a huge thank you to you, our 00:00:13.089 --> 00:00:14.989 audience, for helping to make this happen. 00:00:15.000 --> 00:00:15.949 I have a request. 00:00:16.219 --> 00:00:19.750 If you like what we do here, please give it a thumbs up, 00:00:19.799 --> 00:00:22.380 like, subscribe, tell a friend. 00:00:22.770 --> 00:00:24.910 It really, really helps us to make the pro. 00:00:24.910 --> 00:00:28.930 To find out about our certification courses, online video libraries, 00:00:29.435 --> 00:00:33.325 books, and other courses, please go to rupertisaacson.com. 00:00:34.894 --> 00:00:36.125 So now let's jump in. 00:00:36.885 --> 00:00:38.565 Welcome back to Live Free, ride Free. 00:00:38.565 --> 00:00:42.595 I've got a very, very dear friend, old friend Paul Illingworth here. 00:00:43.125 --> 00:00:48.525 Paul is someone I've known for quite a while and who has done many, many, 00:00:48.555 --> 00:00:50.445 many interesting things in his life. 00:00:50.845 --> 00:00:59.605 And one of the reasons I asked him to come on was he really started from a place that 00:01:01.735 --> 00:01:02.815 I wouldn't say disadvantaged. 00:01:02.815 --> 00:01:06.355 I wouldn't say advantaged, but I'd say without an, an awful lot of 00:01:06.355 --> 00:01:09.625 support and made his way in the world. 00:01:09.805 --> 00:01:14.995 And has actually helped quite a few people along the way as well, and has 00:01:14.995 --> 00:01:19.885 been a great supporter of our work with Horse Boy Foundation and the work we've 00:01:19.885 --> 00:01:21.535 done with autism and that sort of thing. 00:01:21.995 --> 00:01:23.985 Big guy, big Heart big story. 00:01:25.590 --> 00:01:29.640 What I'd quite like to frame this story against though is, is we, I 00:01:29.640 --> 00:01:32.160 think we all know that we're dealing with a bit of an epidemic at the 00:01:32.160 --> 00:01:35.790 moment of lost young men, lost boys. 00:01:36.060 --> 00:01:39.460 And this is something that's kind of crept up on us over the last 00:01:41.530 --> 00:01:44.170 10 15, but it's become more acute since COVID. 00:01:44.590 --> 00:01:52.210 And in the work that I do, I get a lot of moms who have say three kids daughters 00:01:52.300 --> 00:01:56.130 doing great you know, one at one married and off in the career, one at college and 00:01:56.550 --> 00:02:01.620 getting her masters and a son age 21 to 25 who can't come out of the basement. 00:02:02.580 --> 00:02:04.500 And this never used to be the case. 00:02:04.860 --> 00:02:09.310 And it occurred to me, you know, while we were doing this podcast, you know, 00:02:09.310 --> 00:02:16.630 why is this, and friends of mine that I've known who could have been lost boys. 00:02:17.570 --> 00:02:19.490 But who went out into world to find themselves? 00:02:19.790 --> 00:02:22.010 Can we examine this question a little bit? 00:02:22.010 --> 00:02:26.240 How do you, how do you find your way to this kind of self-actualization? 00:02:26.670 --> 00:02:28.590 It's a, it's a pressing question at the moment. 00:02:28.920 --> 00:02:30.720 So Paul, thanks for coming on the show. 00:02:30.930 --> 00:02:34.770 Can you tell the listeners and viewers a little bit about who 00:02:34.770 --> 00:02:36.330 you are and what you do currently? 00:02:36.330 --> 00:02:37.950 And then we'll start with how you got there. 00:02:38.880 --> 00:02:39.390 Paul Illingworth: Sure, yeah. 00:02:39.540 --> 00:02:41.130 Well, my name is Paul Linworth. 00:02:41.160 --> 00:02:43.320 I currently live in Texas. 00:02:43.470 --> 00:02:46.530 I've been over here for 27 years now. 00:02:47.280 --> 00:02:51.960 I moved over here back in 1998 when I was working in the oil and gas business. 00:02:51.960 --> 00:02:54.790 I'm now actually retired and I moved from Aberdeen. 00:02:55.930 --> 00:03:02.370 To Houston in 1998 to start a business there for a very good friend of mine who 00:03:02.490 --> 00:03:04.410 company was actually based in Singapore. 00:03:05.150 --> 00:03:06.230 So I came over here. 00:03:06.290 --> 00:03:10.460 I was supposed to, to initially come to Texas for three months to get the 00:03:10.460 --> 00:03:13.340 business started, then go back to Aberdeen and carry on what I was doing 00:03:13.340 --> 00:03:16.160 over there and things kind of snowballed. 00:03:16.310 --> 00:03:20.300 I was very, very lucky and that having made the decision that I did wanna 00:03:20.300 --> 00:03:24.839 move to Texas, that I managed to to get myself a green card pre nine 11, 00:03:25.109 --> 00:03:28.290 which is which happened very quickly, and now it takes about 10 years. 00:03:28.709 --> 00:03:29.009 Wow. 00:03:29.219 --> 00:03:32.129 Yeah, it's it's taken at least 10 years to get a green card. 00:03:32.639 --> 00:03:38.769 And then I lived in Houston for 14 years and then moved out to the country. 00:03:38.769 --> 00:03:43.580 I live about 30, 40 miles north northeast of Austin, out in the countryside. 00:03:43.580 --> 00:03:45.260 I've got a 20 acre ranch here. 00:03:45.929 --> 00:03:46.529 I continued. 00:03:47.984 --> 00:03:51.074 Houston for a while after we did move out of the Houston area 00:03:51.074 --> 00:03:52.514 because I was still working there. 00:03:53.234 --> 00:03:57.284 And then I finally retired from the oil and gas business in 2019. 00:03:57.564 --> 00:04:01.794 Ran my own business in Austin until about a couple of months 00:04:01.794 --> 00:04:03.114 ago when we sold the business. 00:04:03.114 --> 00:04:05.514 So no, I am officially retired. 00:04:06.294 --> 00:04:09.504 Rupert Isaacson: So you, you make yourself sound like a bloke who sort of just 00:04:09.504 --> 00:04:11.514 kind of climbed the corporate ladder. 00:04:13.584 --> 00:04:16.344 It's anything but the case. 00:04:16.654 --> 00:04:20.514 And just so that listeners get a bit of an idea, while I've known Paul 'cause 00:04:20.514 --> 00:04:22.164 we, I used to live in Austin as well. 00:04:22.534 --> 00:04:29.204 I've known him running a skydiving business, which is keeping people alive 00:04:29.414 --> 00:04:31.184 while you chuck 'em out of airplanes. 00:04:31.184 --> 00:04:31.964 Not easy. 00:04:32.234 --> 00:04:32.294 Yeah. 00:04:32.294 --> 00:04:36.974 And I've also known you run a series of escape rooms as well, even when 00:04:36.974 --> 00:04:40.664 you didn't have to, even when you'd retired from the oil and gas business. 00:04:40.724 --> 00:04:43.784 Because one of the things about Paul, ladies and gentlemen, he gets bored 00:04:43.784 --> 00:04:48.074 very fast and he can't, you know, he can't, he can't abide not having 00:04:48.074 --> 00:04:52.334 something to do and he tends to be very successful at, at what he does. 00:04:52.664 --> 00:04:54.254 Before we start with how you got. 00:04:54.884 --> 00:04:59.354 Up through the non-corporate ranks of, of, of your, of your career. 00:04:59.864 --> 00:05:07.034 Why do you think it is, Paul, that when you pick up a business, you make it work? 00:05:07.064 --> 00:05:10.904 I've only ever seen you make them work, and I've often watched you kind of a bit 00:05:10.904 --> 00:05:12.374 awestruck and go, what, what's he got? 00:05:12.374 --> 00:05:14.594 What is this Midas touch that Paul's got? 00:05:14.599 --> 00:05:16.034 What, what, what do you put it down to? 00:05:17.024 --> 00:05:18.824 Paul Illingworth: I don't, I don't actually think I do have a 00:05:18.824 --> 00:05:22.514 Midas touch at all because I've. 00:05:22.994 --> 00:05:26.474 Over the, over the years I've been involved in four, maybe 00:05:26.474 --> 00:05:27.914 five different businesses. 00:05:28.014 --> 00:05:33.144 The skydiving business was very, very much an opportunistic thing whereby my 00:05:33.144 --> 00:05:36.004 wife Jen and myself were sky divers. 00:05:36.004 --> 00:05:39.694 I started jumping when I was in the military originally, but we 00:05:39.694 --> 00:05:44.474 got into, into sports skydiving in the early two thousands in Texas. 00:05:44.474 --> 00:05:47.564 The weather's a lot better over here, so obviously it's, it's a lot easier to 00:05:47.564 --> 00:05:49.484 skydive than it was living in Scotland. 00:05:50.144 --> 00:05:55.424 And an opportunity came up to buy a drop zone that was very poorly 00:05:55.424 --> 00:05:58.094 managed, not particularly well run. 00:05:58.664 --> 00:06:02.904 And the guy that, the guy and the girl that owned it were ready to 00:06:02.904 --> 00:06:04.704 leave and go do something else. 00:06:04.704 --> 00:06:09.204 So, we could, we, the, the wife and I could just simply see the 00:06:09.204 --> 00:06:13.644 potential there that we could really turn it into something special. 00:06:14.464 --> 00:06:15.004 And we did. 00:06:15.709 --> 00:06:17.209 We invested a bit more money in. 00:06:17.209 --> 00:06:18.799 We bought another couple of airplanes. 00:06:18.799 --> 00:06:20.809 We both got ourselves certified as part Love. 00:06:20.809 --> 00:06:20.869 How? 00:06:21.139 --> 00:06:21.559 Oh, and we 00:06:21.559 --> 00:06:22.454 Rupert Isaacson: bought another couple of airplanes. 00:06:23.209 --> 00:06:25.094 Paul Illingworth: Yeah, well, just as you do, just like, like, 00:06:25.194 --> 00:06:27.439 Rupert Isaacson: you know, I'm actually nipping out to get one now, Paul. 00:06:27.439 --> 00:06:27.949 Do you want me to Yeah, right. 00:06:28.094 --> 00:06:28.174 Yeah. 00:06:28.234 --> 00:06:28.894 Put up for you as well. 00:06:29.239 --> 00:06:29.359 Paul Illingworth: Yeah. 00:06:29.359 --> 00:06:32.599 We're not, you know, we're not talking about Cessna citations or, 00:06:32.689 --> 00:06:36.739 you know, billion dollar airplanes, skydiving airplanes tend to be at 00:06:36.739 --> 00:06:39.769 the bottom end of the barrel as far as airplanes are concerned. 00:06:39.769 --> 00:06:42.439 So it wasn't really terribly difficult and we didn't have 00:06:42.439 --> 00:06:43.639 to put a lot of money in it. 00:06:43.639 --> 00:06:47.359 But, so to start off with, we just started very, very small and we built 00:06:47.359 --> 00:06:51.529 things up slowly and, and, you know, over the 13 years we owned the business, we 00:06:51.529 --> 00:06:54.799 turned it into a very, very successful business with a lot of hard work. 00:06:54.829 --> 00:06:57.614 I mean, it was hard, Rupert, I remember, I remember it stressing you. 00:06:57.644 --> 00:07:03.019 Yeah, I was working, I was working as the CEO of an oil and gas service 00:07:03.019 --> 00:07:05.419 company, spending about 200 days a year. 00:07:05.794 --> 00:07:09.814 Traveling overseas, working in business development, and we were 00:07:09.814 --> 00:07:13.384 also running the skydiving business that was open seven days a week. 00:07:13.554 --> 00:07:17.874 I would come, we would travel out to the skydiving business at the weekends. 00:07:17.874 --> 00:07:21.594 We had a manager out there that ran it during the week, and we'd be, 00:07:21.774 --> 00:07:24.084 my wife was a skydiving instructor. 00:07:24.134 --> 00:07:25.934 And I would be flying the airplanes. 00:07:25.934 --> 00:07:27.584 You know, we work seven days a week. 00:07:27.644 --> 00:07:28.694 That's all there is to it. 00:07:28.994 --> 00:07:29.204 Yeah. 00:07:29.294 --> 00:07:30.164 You know, and then. 00:07:30.239 --> 00:07:30.359 After. 00:07:31.424 --> 00:07:32.314 It's just putting in the hours. 00:07:32.879 --> 00:07:34.109 It's just putting the hours in. 00:07:34.109 --> 00:07:35.249 It's as simple as that. 00:07:35.309 --> 00:07:40.049 I mean, I'll be quite honest with you, I didn't get where I was in this position in 00:07:40.049 --> 00:07:43.559 the world today by sitting around reading a newspaper and watching television. 00:07:43.739 --> 00:07:47.279 You know, you've got, you've gotta be prepared to work hard 00:07:47.279 --> 00:07:48.389 and that's all there is to it. 00:07:48.389 --> 00:07:50.369 But it's finding the thing to do. 00:07:50.459 --> 00:07:54.599 And as, as you mentioned, you know, the escape room business as well, that 00:07:54.719 --> 00:07:56.519 Jen and I love doing escape rooms. 00:07:56.519 --> 00:07:57.269 And it's the same thing. 00:07:57.269 --> 00:07:58.109 We love skydiving. 00:07:58.109 --> 00:08:00.389 We bought skydiving business, we love escape rooms. 00:08:00.629 --> 00:08:03.869 And escape room business came up for sale that was 30 minutes drive 00:08:03.869 --> 00:08:05.339 from our house here in Austin. 00:08:05.939 --> 00:08:08.489 We went and had a look at it, looked at the books, thought I 00:08:08.489 --> 00:08:11.639 think we can make something outta this and actually do better. 00:08:12.119 --> 00:08:13.019 And that's what we did. 00:08:14.009 --> 00:08:17.219 But you know, it's almost like, you know, they say. 00:08:18.194 --> 00:08:18.704 What, what? 00:08:18.944 --> 00:08:20.594 What's the best thing about owning a boat? 00:08:20.624 --> 00:08:23.474 Well, the best thing about owning a boat is when you sell it, and 00:08:23.474 --> 00:08:24.974 it's a bit like owning a business. 00:08:24.974 --> 00:08:27.734 You've gotta have an exit strategy if you own a business. 00:08:27.734 --> 00:08:30.464 We had an exit strategy for the skydiving business. 00:08:30.464 --> 00:08:33.704 We had an exit strategy for the escape prune business. 00:08:33.944 --> 00:08:35.084 What, what those strategies? 00:08:35.444 --> 00:08:38.744 Well, it was basically just simply get to a certain point in terms of 00:08:38.744 --> 00:08:40.544 income and, and own the business. 00:08:40.544 --> 00:08:43.934 For so many years, the skydiving business was supposed to be 10 years. 00:08:45.354 --> 00:08:47.514 X number of dollars of, of profit. 00:08:48.154 --> 00:08:50.554 We ended up owning the business for 13 years. 00:08:50.554 --> 00:08:53.164 It just took a little bit longer to sell it than we expected. 00:08:53.524 --> 00:08:55.924 The Escape Room business, we had a five year plan. 00:08:56.504 --> 00:09:00.404 We hit all the targets on the escape room business despite the fact that we bought 00:09:00.404 --> 00:09:04.484 it a year before COVID, where we bought it six months before COVID actually happened. 00:09:05.175 --> 00:09:08.984 But very quickly we recovered after COVID expanded the business as well. 00:09:08.984 --> 00:09:12.045 Took a punt that things would come back strong, and they did. 00:09:12.555 --> 00:09:13.785 We had a five year plan. 00:09:13.785 --> 00:09:15.435 We sold the business. 00:09:16.395 --> 00:09:21.795 If you look at COVID and when COVID sort of started to ease off a little 00:09:21.795 --> 00:09:25.094 bit, we sold the business five years from then, three months ago. 00:09:25.635 --> 00:09:25.814 Okay. 00:09:27.074 --> 00:09:30.644 So, you know, I, I've been lucky, Rupert. 00:09:30.644 --> 00:09:34.185 It's not just, it's not, but you've gotta be prepared to work hard. 00:09:34.185 --> 00:09:37.004 You've gotta seize an opportunity when you see it. 00:09:37.004 --> 00:09:38.175 And never be afraid. 00:09:38.714 --> 00:09:40.844 Never be afraid to go and do something. 00:09:40.844 --> 00:09:42.104 That's really what it comes down to. 00:09:42.104 --> 00:09:43.844 Rupert Isaacson: Well, let, let's talk about never be afraid. 00:09:43.844 --> 00:09:47.484 So again, for listeners you will have read the show notes so you actually 00:09:47.484 --> 00:09:52.284 know the sort of slightly more swashbuckling story that, that, that 00:09:52.314 --> 00:09:54.264 than Paul is giving away right now. 00:09:54.264 --> 00:09:56.634 But we're gonna go back and we're gonna swash and buckle a bit. 00:09:57.174 --> 00:10:00.474 You know, Paul, I also know you as an aviator. 00:10:00.474 --> 00:10:02.514 I also know you as Ex Special Forces. 00:10:02.514 --> 00:10:06.804 I also know you as Ex Merchant Navy, and I know you, you know, and all of 00:10:06.804 --> 00:10:15.904 these tough envi environments to come up through Rugby League, in which there's a 00:10:15.904 --> 00:10:17.854 ton of fear and okay, you're a big guy. 00:10:19.219 --> 00:10:23.089 You know, whenever I'm referring to Paul to friends, I automatically 00:10:23.089 --> 00:10:24.829 say, big Paul, you're a big guy. 00:10:24.829 --> 00:10:26.209 But that's being big's. 00:10:26.209 --> 00:10:28.130 Not, you know how it is. 00:10:28.130 --> 00:10:30.110 It's not the dog in the fight, it's the fight and the dog. 00:10:30.589 --> 00:10:33.920 You've had to face an awful lot of fear in your life. 00:10:34.520 --> 00:10:36.589 So let's start back now. 00:10:37.160 --> 00:10:38.930 Let's start with you as a boy. 00:10:39.229 --> 00:10:40.219 Where are you born? 00:10:40.339 --> 00:10:41.359 How'd you grow up? 00:10:42.020 --> 00:10:46.489 And then how do you end up going from there to the military? 00:10:46.550 --> 00:10:48.139 And then let's take it from there. 00:10:48.709 --> 00:10:49.160 Paul Illingworth: Okay. 00:10:49.550 --> 00:10:53.550 I was actually born in Australia but at a very, very early age 00:10:53.550 --> 00:10:55.290 my parents moved back to London. 00:10:55.620 --> 00:10:57.870 So let's talk about my father for a start. 00:10:58.050 --> 00:11:03.080 My father joined the Scots guards in 1936 when he was 16 years old. 00:11:03.080 --> 00:11:04.245 So well before can tell us us what the 00:11:04.245 --> 00:11:06.560 Rupert Isaacson: Scots guards are, because not every listener's gonna know. 00:11:06.680 --> 00:11:07.250 Paul Illingworth: Okay. 00:11:07.250 --> 00:11:08.810 They, they, they. 00:11:09.515 --> 00:11:14.105 So there are, there are, I think there's five or six guards regiments in the uk. 00:11:14.105 --> 00:11:17.195 They're basically the guys that wear the red tunics and have the big 00:11:17.435 --> 00:11:21.005 hats, the big black hats, and they do the guard at Buckingham Palace. 00:11:21.005 --> 00:11:22.505 So those are what the guards do, 00:11:22.925 --> 00:11:24.605 Rupert Isaacson: but they're also crack troops. 00:11:24.785 --> 00:11:25.640 When it comes combat. 00:11:25.640 --> 00:11:26.000 They're 00:11:26.375 --> 00:11:28.115 Paul Illingworth: very, very much crack, crack troops. 00:11:28.115 --> 00:11:31.055 They're always at the front of, of pretty much any battle. 00:11:31.575 --> 00:11:35.975 My dad joined in 1936 but he actually started work at 00:11:35.975 --> 00:11:37.565 10 years old down the mines. 00:11:37.565 --> 00:11:40.655 He was a Yorkshire born lad in Castleford in Yorkshire, 00:11:40.655 --> 00:11:41.915 which is in northern England. 00:11:42.365 --> 00:11:45.155 And at 10 years old, he was working down the coal mines, 00:11:45.515 --> 00:11:46.295 Rupert Isaacson: which is amazing. 00:11:46.295 --> 00:11:49.505 And I'm thinking about my son Ian, who you know, little man. 00:11:49.565 --> 00:11:50.465 He's 10 now. 00:11:51.125 --> 00:11:51.485 Paul Illingworth: And 00:11:51.485 --> 00:11:54.035 Rupert Isaacson: he was just on the field helping me pull rag what? 00:11:54.365 --> 00:11:57.950 And I'm feeling a bit guilty about, you know, asking him to, you know, help me. 00:11:58.230 --> 00:12:02.705 And now you say 10, your dad was down the mines in York back then. 00:12:02.765 --> 00:12:02.825 Wow. 00:12:02.910 --> 00:12:03.090 He was, he was 00:12:03.090 --> 00:12:05.765 Paul Illingworth: working, yeah, he was working down the mines, which 00:12:05.765 --> 00:12:08.705 was a hard thing to do because his father was actually killed when he 00:12:08.705 --> 00:12:10.445 was three years old in a mine crash. 00:12:10.595 --> 00:12:11.045 Okay. 00:12:11.165 --> 00:12:14.905 So he was raised by his aunt his mother. 00:12:15.205 --> 00:12:19.855 I think my grandmother on my father's side died when he was a very, very early age. 00:12:19.855 --> 00:12:22.315 I'm not really too sure, but he was basically brought 00:12:22.315 --> 00:12:24.495 up on his own by my aunt. 00:12:25.335 --> 00:12:27.795 He joined the Scots guards in 1936. 00:12:27.795 --> 00:12:29.775 I said before the second World War started. 00:12:30.165 --> 00:12:33.885 I don't really know why, other than the fact that he wanted to get out the mines. 00:12:33.885 --> 00:12:35.565 And the earliest you could join the Army, army was six. 00:12:35.565 --> 00:12:36.170 Why not a 00:12:36.170 --> 00:12:37.125 Rupert Isaacson: Yorkshire line regimen? 00:12:37.155 --> 00:12:37.305 Yeah. 00:12:37.305 --> 00:12:38.535 Why, why the s Scott scars. 00:12:38.535 --> 00:12:39.585 He's not, wasn't Scottish. 00:12:39.585 --> 00:12:40.395 And you know, 00:12:41.295 --> 00:12:41.715 Paul Illingworth: that. 00:12:42.135 --> 00:12:44.085 That I honestly don't know, Rupert. 00:12:44.085 --> 00:12:44.955 I mean, I really don't. 00:12:44.955 --> 00:12:48.815 Yeah, I think he, he probably just headed down to London at 16 with 00:12:48.815 --> 00:12:53.045 the idea of doing something and, and the Scots guards took him on. 00:12:53.045 --> 00:12:54.060 I And you have 00:12:54.060 --> 00:12:54.725 Rupert Isaacson: to be tall Right? 00:12:54.725 --> 00:12:55.445 To go in the guard. 00:12:55.445 --> 00:12:56.405 So he was probably a tall, you gotta 00:12:56.405 --> 00:12:58.325 Paul Illingworth: be, you gotta be at least six foot. 00:12:58.415 --> 00:12:58.715 Rupert Isaacson: Yeah. 00:12:58.720 --> 00:12:58.820 Yeah. 00:12:59.165 --> 00:13:00.995 Paul Illingworth: I think they've dropped that requirement now. 00:13:00.995 --> 00:13:03.785 But in those days you had to be six foot and my dad was six two. 00:13:03.785 --> 00:13:05.315 Pretty much the same as I was. 00:13:06.005 --> 00:13:08.495 Yeah, so he was a pretty big guy as, as well. 00:13:08.975 --> 00:13:12.815 And you know, he was, he was in the Scots guards, he went to North 00:13:12.815 --> 00:13:14.420 Africa with the eight farming. 00:13:15.575 --> 00:13:17.645 During the war is where my grandfather was 00:13:17.645 --> 00:13:17.945 Rupert Isaacson: too. 00:13:18.305 --> 00:13:18.605 Was he? 00:13:18.755 --> 00:13:19.145 Yeah. 00:13:19.715 --> 00:13:22.745 Paul Illingworth: So he was, he was part of the eighth Army and, and then 00:13:22.745 --> 00:13:27.855 he ended up being recruited into the Lrd gs, which is a long range desert group. 00:13:27.855 --> 00:13:33.555 And those, those guys were the four, the forerunners to the formation of the SAS. 00:13:34.125 --> 00:13:37.515 So the lard, dgs, long Range Desert Group, they basically used to go and 00:13:37.515 --> 00:13:41.025 scout things out in North Africa, which is where they were formed. 00:13:41.025 --> 00:13:43.365 And then the SAS were formed in North Africa. 00:13:43.935 --> 00:13:45.705 I think it was in 1942. 00:13:45.705 --> 00:13:47.445 I can't remember exactly what the date was. 00:13:48.075 --> 00:13:50.205 So he was a career soldier pretty much. 00:13:50.305 --> 00:13:56.875 He stayed in the Scots guards, until, I think it was 1948 or 1950, he got 00:13:56.875 --> 00:14:00.805 injured pretty badly at Monte Casino during the Second World War when they 00:14:00.805 --> 00:14:02.665 were fighting coming up through Italy. 00:14:03.435 --> 00:14:05.865 And he took some time off then and he went back in again. 00:14:05.865 --> 00:14:08.895 But eventually he was medically discharged because he took some 00:14:08.895 --> 00:14:12.105 shrapnel in his back and never really recovered properly from it. 00:14:13.035 --> 00:14:15.545 But very, very much an army man. 00:14:15.905 --> 00:14:17.675 That's, that, you know, that's what he was. 00:14:18.245 --> 00:14:21.995 My mother also lied about her age during the Second World War and ended 00:14:21.995 --> 00:14:23.735 up being what they call an AKA girl. 00:14:23.735 --> 00:14:29.145 So in London, she was firing the, the guns at the German aircraft that 00:14:29.145 --> 00:14:30.675 were coming over a bomb in London. 00:14:31.425 --> 00:14:35.025 And they met in London somewhere around about 1950. 00:14:35.025 --> 00:14:38.475 I'm not too sure exactly when it was, but that's when my parents got together 00:14:40.995 --> 00:14:42.015 Rupert Isaacson: and okay. 00:14:42.015 --> 00:14:42.615 So. 00:14:44.010 --> 00:14:45.540 How did they end up going to Australia? 00:14:45.540 --> 00:14:48.205 How did they end up having you and then you come back? 00:14:48.345 --> 00:14:48.565 My 00:14:48.565 --> 00:14:48.685 Paul Illingworth: dad. 00:14:48.835 --> 00:14:49.125 Okay. 00:14:49.755 --> 00:14:55.785 My dad got into the building business with my uncle, who was my mother's brother. 00:14:56.325 --> 00:14:58.545 They got into rebuilding London. 00:14:58.545 --> 00:15:00.075 That's really what it came down to. 00:15:00.075 --> 00:15:02.715 And they, they had a pretty successful building business 00:15:02.715 --> 00:15:04.395 in London in the early fifties. 00:15:05.215 --> 00:15:09.355 And there was an opportunity because on my mother's side, there was my mother's side 00:15:09.355 --> 00:15:11.535 of the family had Australian connections. 00:15:11.535 --> 00:15:13.815 'cause my grandfather went down to Australia. 00:15:14.175 --> 00:15:15.255 He was a policeman. 00:15:15.285 --> 00:15:19.510 He went down to Australia back in the the, the twenties, I think it 00:15:19.510 --> 00:15:20.890 was the twenties and the thirties. 00:15:20.890 --> 00:15:22.780 So there was family connections down there. 00:15:23.230 --> 00:15:27.670 And they decided to go to Australia to, to, because there was a lot of building 00:15:27.670 --> 00:15:29.680 going on, on the west coast in Perth. 00:15:30.010 --> 00:15:30.190 Mm-hmm. 00:15:30.240 --> 00:15:31.980 So they went down, they went down there. 00:15:31.980 --> 00:15:34.650 And that's how I ended up being born down there, basically. 00:15:34.650 --> 00:15:38.550 But there was a lot going on in London and my dad felt that he really had to get 00:15:38.550 --> 00:15:42.870 back to London, you know, which was where the, the, the main thrust of business was. 00:15:42.870 --> 00:15:46.020 So that's why we moved back there when I was three months old. 00:15:46.725 --> 00:15:49.965 Rupert Isaacson: Alright, so you are then born and brought up in London 00:15:50.955 --> 00:15:51.555 Paul Illingworth: pretty much? 00:15:51.555 --> 00:15:51.855 Yep. 00:15:51.855 --> 00:15:54.405 You can, you can say that we lived in Bayswater. 00:15:54.465 --> 00:15:58.645 The earliest recollections I have of like three, four years old was 00:15:58.645 --> 00:16:01.405 living in a, a townhouse in Bayswater. 00:16:02.065 --> 00:16:06.985 And we pretty much stayed there until my dad had had his first back 00:16:07.075 --> 00:16:11.135 problem which was what caused him to end up selling, having to sell 00:16:11.135 --> 00:16:13.325 his business, et cetera, et cetera. 00:16:13.385 --> 00:16:18.275 And that kind of like almost leads to the story of how we ended up 00:16:18.455 --> 00:16:24.585 living in a council house on social security with no money because 00:16:24.735 --> 00:16:26.475 he ended up losing the business. 00:16:26.565 --> 00:16:30.975 You know, I think people took advantage of him, or should I say, he was a bit 00:16:30.975 --> 00:16:33.855 too generous with the way that he was doing things and he went from having 00:16:33.855 --> 00:16:38.595 a very successful building business to nothing in a fairly short period of time. 00:16:39.780 --> 00:16:41.730 Rupert Isaacson: And being somewhat of an invalid from the Walgreens. 00:16:41.730 --> 00:16:42.150 Yes. 00:16:42.240 --> 00:16:42.600 Paul Illingworth: Yeah. 00:16:42.600 --> 00:16:43.140 As well. 00:16:43.140 --> 00:16:46.570 He ended up, he had a a spinal fusion. 00:16:47.330 --> 00:16:51.140 I think the first one was in 1962 when I was six years old. 00:16:51.600 --> 00:16:54.300 And he was laid up in bed for three, four months with that. 00:16:54.300 --> 00:16:56.400 And he never really fully recovered. 00:16:56.400 --> 00:16:59.910 The spinal fusions, even nowadays, are dodgy things back in the sixties. 00:16:59.910 --> 00:17:02.580 It was just, it was horrendous, the stuff that they were doing. 00:17:03.030 --> 00:17:06.990 And he never really recovered and he never really w work was able to work again. 00:17:07.490 --> 00:17:11.030 He had a second spinal fusion a couple of years later because the first one 00:17:11.030 --> 00:17:12.830 didn't take, and that was even worse. 00:17:13.380 --> 00:17:15.630 And it just got to the point where he couldn't do anything. 00:17:15.900 --> 00:17:16.230 Rupert Isaacson: Right. 00:17:16.230 --> 00:17:20.400 So he went from being kind of a swashbuckling pirate, semi prior war 00:17:20.400 --> 00:17:26.760 hero to a successful entrepreneur to losing it and being an invalid 00:17:27.180 --> 00:17:27.420 Paul Illingworth: Yeah. 00:17:27.480 --> 00:17:28.650 Rupert Isaacson: With a young family. 00:17:28.860 --> 00:17:32.250 So it must have been that pretty much a big knock to his self-esteem. 00:17:32.250 --> 00:17:32.880 I would've thought 00:17:33.305 --> 00:17:34.765 Paul Illingworth: it, it was, and it, and. 00:17:35.820 --> 00:17:38.520 He was never the easiest of people to get on with. 00:17:38.520 --> 00:17:42.320 But obviously because he was in a lot of pain he became very, 00:17:42.320 --> 00:17:43.910 very difficult to live with. 00:17:44.010 --> 00:17:47.665 Bitter perhaps, you know, to, to the point where, you know, my, 00:17:47.665 --> 00:17:51.515 I had a I have a younger sister who's four years younger than me. 00:17:51.515 --> 00:17:55.565 And, and you know, we pretty much both realized as we were growing up that the 00:17:55.565 --> 00:17:58.625 best thing to do was get out the house and spend as much time out the house as 00:17:58.625 --> 00:18:00.365 possible, which is literally what we did. 00:18:01.085 --> 00:18:04.715 You know, just as my dad did at 10 years old, I got myself a 00:18:04.715 --> 00:18:06.425 paper round and started working. 00:18:06.515 --> 00:18:09.485 So at 10 years old I was doing, getting up at five o'clock in the morning. 00:18:09.485 --> 00:18:09.815 Where was that? 00:18:10.325 --> 00:18:11.780 Which part of was that was in? 00:18:12.180 --> 00:18:17.475 I was in, that was in, we moved out to the country to Hartfordshire so about 00:18:17.475 --> 00:18:19.845 30 miles north of, of central London. 00:18:20.115 --> 00:18:20.145 Mm. 00:18:20.145 --> 00:18:22.335 And we moved into a council house out there. 00:18:23.070 --> 00:18:27.705 So I was delivering newspapers on a, on a house estate in a place called Hoon. 00:18:28.185 --> 00:18:28.545 I know Hoist. 00:18:28.545 --> 00:18:28.665 Yeah. 00:18:28.665 --> 00:18:30.065 Which is in Har Har, you know, Hoon? 00:18:31.080 --> 00:18:31.150 Yeah, yeah. 00:18:31.150 --> 00:18:31.170 Near hitching. 00:18:31.170 --> 00:18:31.425 Yeah. 00:18:31.490 --> 00:18:32.360 Yeah, that's it. 00:18:32.360 --> 00:18:32.630 Yeah. 00:18:32.635 --> 00:18:32.805 Yeah. 00:18:33.230 --> 00:18:37.460 And I, you know, I, I helped with a milk round at the weekends, but, 00:18:37.670 --> 00:18:40.340 but seven days a week, no matter what the weather was doing, I was up 00:18:40.340 --> 00:18:44.570 delivering newspapers and, you know, my mom and dad didn't have any money. 00:18:44.640 --> 00:18:48.145 You know, so in order to, if you wanted anything, I mean, I can remember I bought 00:18:48.145 --> 00:18:50.845 my first pair of Levi's Levi Jeans myself. 00:18:50.845 --> 00:18:52.705 'cause my mom and dad couldn't afford anything. 00:18:52.705 --> 00:18:54.355 We were living off social security. 00:18:54.835 --> 00:18:55.075 Rupert Isaacson: Yeah. 00:18:55.135 --> 00:18:57.025 Paul Illingworth: And that was all done through paper round money. 00:18:57.865 --> 00:18:59.785 Rupert Isaacson: So you become, you know, yeah. 00:18:59.785 --> 00:19:04.555 That boy who's out there making a bit of money pre-adolescence, 00:19:05.275 --> 00:19:06.865 take us now into your adolescence. 00:19:06.895 --> 00:19:07.825 Where does it go from there? 00:19:08.695 --> 00:19:09.145 Paul Illingworth: Hmm. 00:19:10.465 --> 00:19:10.885 Well. 00:19:11.695 --> 00:19:13.015 I did pretty well at school. 00:19:13.235 --> 00:19:14.135 God knows why. 00:19:14.285 --> 00:19:17.135 I actually do have a, a, a relatively high iq. 00:19:17.645 --> 00:19:19.745 Not that anybody realize that at the time you did. 00:19:19.745 --> 00:19:25.835 Well, I really, yeah, I, I struggled with reading Rupert and I, I guess 00:19:25.835 --> 00:19:29.885 that now I would be, what you would call dis I was dyslexic basically. 00:19:29.890 --> 00:19:30.100 Right. 00:19:30.440 --> 00:19:31.640 I was very, very But you still got through 00:19:31.640 --> 00:19:32.415 Rupert Isaacson: the school system though. 00:19:32.475 --> 00:19:34.995 Paul Illingworth: Yeah, I was, it was a bit of a struggle. 00:19:34.995 --> 00:19:37.515 I was very, very good at math, but I couldn't read and 00:19:37.515 --> 00:19:39.105 writing was a struggle for me. 00:19:39.495 --> 00:19:39.585 Right. 00:19:39.585 --> 00:19:44.985 And, and at the age of 11, when when you had to do what was called the 00:19:45.135 --> 00:19:49.515 11 plus, 11 plus, that's it, the 11 plus, I had to do the 11 plus. 00:19:50.205 --> 00:19:54.315 And I managed to pass the 11 plus barely, which gave me access to 00:19:54.315 --> 00:19:56.025 go into local grammar school. 00:19:56.535 --> 00:19:56.565 Okay. 00:19:56.565 --> 00:19:58.995 But my parents couldn't afford the school uniform. 00:19:59.805 --> 00:20:03.695 And there was a secondary modern school only about half 00:20:03.695 --> 00:20:05.255 a mile from where we lived. 00:20:05.255 --> 00:20:08.615 So I went to the secondary model school, secondary model school. 00:20:09.275 --> 00:20:11.105 But I did manage to pass the 11 plus. 00:20:11.135 --> 00:20:15.125 And then, but the first couple of years at school, I really struggled with English. 00:20:15.125 --> 00:20:19.775 And, and you know, even then, I think moving forward a little bit, when 00:20:19.775 --> 00:20:23.645 I, when I came to join the Navy, one of the qualifications I needed to 00:20:23.645 --> 00:20:26.945 become an officer in the Navy was I had to have an English O level. 00:20:26.945 --> 00:20:28.385 I failed it three times. 00:20:28.895 --> 00:20:33.965 I had math, A level physics, a level technical drawing, 00:20:33.965 --> 00:20:36.275 chemistry, and one other. 00:20:36.335 --> 00:20:39.095 I had four A levels, but I couldn't pass English O level. 00:20:39.305 --> 00:20:40.400 That's how bad I was. 00:20:40.565 --> 00:20:41.225 I mean, really. 00:20:41.225 --> 00:20:44.975 So, you know, I managed to take it and, and get it eventually and that 00:20:44.975 --> 00:20:47.015 then allowed me to, to join the Navy. 00:20:47.015 --> 00:20:49.595 But I was gonna go in the forces. 00:20:49.595 --> 00:20:51.875 It was either that or go to university. 00:20:51.875 --> 00:20:54.575 But again, gonna university in those days without any money 00:20:54.575 --> 00:20:56.225 was very, very difficult. 00:20:56.715 --> 00:21:00.825 I actually wanted to be an architect because of my dad's connection 00:21:00.825 --> 00:21:01.815 with the building business. 00:21:01.815 --> 00:21:06.645 He, even though he was invalid, he did teach me a lot of stuff growing up. 00:21:06.645 --> 00:21:09.135 I, I got a lot of skills that he taught me. 00:21:09.705 --> 00:21:11.505 You know, I mean, he taught me how to lay bricks. 00:21:11.505 --> 00:21:15.685 He taught me how to sew the pipe, how to do electric work which you're messing 00:21:15.685 --> 00:21:19.075 around as a kid with two 20 volts isn't a lot of fun if you get it wrong. 00:21:19.465 --> 00:21:19.645 Yeah. 00:21:19.695 --> 00:21:23.565 But he, he gave me all of the basic skills that I think I 00:21:23.565 --> 00:21:26.355 built on as I got older myself. 00:21:26.625 --> 00:21:26.835 Right. 00:21:26.835 --> 00:21:30.795 But, you know, I left school when I was, when I was 16. 00:21:31.515 --> 00:21:35.355 I could have stayed on, but I had the qualifications that I needed to join 00:21:35.355 --> 00:21:37.725 the Navy as a, as a cadet officer. 00:21:37.875 --> 00:21:40.815 My dad wanted me to go in the Army, as you can imagine. 00:21:40.965 --> 00:21:43.575 He did not want me to go in the, in the Navy. 00:21:43.815 --> 00:21:48.225 My first choice was the Air Force, but I would've had to have gone to college 00:21:48.225 --> 00:21:51.535 to become a flight officer because they didn't take you straight from school. 00:21:51.535 --> 00:21:56.155 So the Navy was the best way for me to go into the armed forces as an officer 00:21:56.155 --> 00:21:59.155 without having to go to university and spend a whole hell of a lot of money. 00:21:59.365 --> 00:22:00.955 That's why I ended up joining the Navy. 00:22:01.255 --> 00:22:03.295 Rupert Isaacson: There's, let's, just before we get to the Navy 00:22:03.475 --> 00:22:06.685 you spent a little bit of time playing professional rugby as well. 00:22:07.400 --> 00:22:07.680 Mm-hmm. 00:22:08.005 --> 00:22:09.715 And not rugby union, but rugby league. 00:22:09.715 --> 00:22:11.695 And I think it, people need to know what the difference is. 00:22:11.695 --> 00:22:11.965 Yeah. 00:22:11.995 --> 00:22:12.475 Paul Illingworth: So 00:22:12.595 --> 00:22:15.535 Rupert Isaacson: what, how did that happen and then how did that play into forces? 00:22:15.955 --> 00:22:16.285 Paul Illingworth: Alright. 00:22:16.285 --> 00:22:20.425 So my dad growing up in Yorkshire. 00:22:21.085 --> 00:22:23.185 As a yorkshireman played rugby league. 00:22:23.735 --> 00:22:27.545 There's a big divide between, well, there was in those days, not so much now, but, 00:22:27.545 --> 00:22:33.185 but Rugby Union was played down south in the uk, which was a non-professional 00:22:33.185 --> 00:22:37.025 sport that was just simply played for fun Guys played it at the weekend. 00:22:37.025 --> 00:22:37.895 They didn't get paid. 00:22:37.895 --> 00:22:42.725 Rugby league was a professional sport, just like soccer was in the uk. 00:22:42.725 --> 00:22:45.515 Then where you actually got paid to play. 00:22:46.235 --> 00:22:48.785 Rugby league was only played in the north of England. 00:22:49.355 --> 00:22:52.475 My dad played rugby league when he was a kid growing up. 00:22:52.935 --> 00:22:57.405 And also when he was a teen and, and I think even a, not after 00:22:57.405 --> 00:22:58.575 the war, but before the war. 00:22:58.575 --> 00:23:01.665 He played rugby league and he played for, for Castleford, which 00:23:01.665 --> 00:23:03.635 was the the town he grew up in. 00:23:04.535 --> 00:23:06.905 So I kind of grew up with a rugby ball. 00:23:07.325 --> 00:23:09.515 In, in my hands all the time. 00:23:09.785 --> 00:23:13.385 I always had a rugby ball, never played, really played soccer. 00:23:13.925 --> 00:23:17.825 So when I went into secondary school, they didn't play rugby 00:23:17.975 --> 00:23:19.595 because it was a secondary school. 00:23:19.745 --> 00:23:21.695 Only the grammar schools played rugby. 00:23:21.695 --> 00:23:23.555 The secondary schools played soccer. 00:23:24.005 --> 00:23:29.105 I was very lucky because at 11 years old, when I went into secondary school, which 00:23:29.105 --> 00:23:35.865 is like the American high school we got a new gym teacher, stroke coach who was 00:23:35.865 --> 00:23:38.505 a welshman that was very much into rugby. 00:23:39.345 --> 00:23:45.915 I had a desire to play rugby and the school I went to, it wasn't 00:23:45.915 --> 00:23:48.225 the best of school, shall we say. 00:23:48.225 --> 00:23:51.555 There was a very, very high proportion of Italian immigrants 00:23:51.555 --> 00:23:53.175 lived in the area that I lived in. 00:23:53.985 --> 00:23:57.825 And those guys, although they were all soccer mad, they also liked to fight. 00:23:59.070 --> 00:24:03.270 So rugby being a lot more physical game than soccer, they saw it as an 00:24:03.270 --> 00:24:06.840 opportunity to go on the pitch third ball around and fight with different people. 00:24:07.355 --> 00:24:11.160 And isn't that that, what It's pretty much, yeah. 00:24:11.165 --> 00:24:13.770 I I even today it's, it's pretty much the same thing. 00:24:13.980 --> 00:24:14.160 Yeah. 00:24:14.250 --> 00:24:19.140 So I ended up with the gym teacher, if you like it, 11, 12 years old. 00:24:19.250 --> 00:24:22.580 Starting a rugby team at the school, we didn't have any, we didn't have 00:24:22.580 --> 00:24:26.150 any h posts or anything like that, so we had to play on the soccer pitch. 00:24:26.800 --> 00:24:28.900 And we managed to get a group of guys together that were 00:24:28.900 --> 00:24:30.190 interested in playing rugby. 00:24:30.190 --> 00:24:35.260 So with what I knew about rugby and obviously what the, our Welsh gym teacher 00:24:35.320 --> 00:24:39.280 knew who played Rugby Foot virtually all of his life, we managed to get things 00:24:39.280 --> 00:24:41.830 together and get a rugby team going. 00:24:41.890 --> 00:24:46.610 The first game that we played the very first season we lost 50 N nil. 00:24:46.700 --> 00:24:49.710 We got absolutely hammered, but there was a lot of fighting, 00:24:49.740 --> 00:24:51.090 which my guys really, really. 00:24:52.195 --> 00:24:54.025 And then things sort of moved on from there. 00:24:54.265 --> 00:24:58.765 And as, as the years passed, we got better and better and better. 00:24:58.765 --> 00:25:02.275 It was always the same guys just moving from one year up to the next. 00:25:02.785 --> 00:25:06.925 I was captain of the rugby team pretty well from, from day one because I was 00:25:06.925 --> 00:25:09.835 the only person I actually knew anything about the game to start off with. 00:25:10.515 --> 00:25:13.665 And the last year that I was at school, we actually did very, very well. 00:25:13.765 --> 00:25:15.645 We we won the county cup. 00:25:16.285 --> 00:25:20.675 I got capped for for Hartfordshire for Southeast England and I 00:25:20.675 --> 00:25:23.825 actually got a junior cap to and played for England as well. 00:25:23.825 --> 00:25:29.765 So as a result of that, I was scouted, if you like, to go and play rugby league. 00:25:30.065 --> 00:25:31.145 Rupert Isaacson: What position did you play? 00:25:31.445 --> 00:25:31.865 Number 00:25:31.865 --> 00:25:32.075 Paul Illingworth: eight. 00:25:32.735 --> 00:25:33.485 So number eight. 00:25:33.485 --> 00:25:36.245 Number eight is the guy that's at the very back of the pack. 00:25:36.245 --> 00:25:39.395 So the, you've got your forwards and which are in a pack. 00:25:40.055 --> 00:25:42.695 And I was at the very back, so I played number eight. 00:25:43.055 --> 00:25:46.085 Now in rugby, rugby union there's 15 players. 00:25:46.085 --> 00:25:49.715 Rugby league, there's only 13 because they have two less people in the pack. 00:25:49.925 --> 00:25:54.275 And the position I played in Rugby Union number eight was called 00:25:54.355 --> 00:25:56.935 lock, lock Forward in Rugby League. 00:25:57.685 --> 00:26:03.025 So I ended up getting scouted and was offered an opportunity to go 00:26:03.025 --> 00:26:05.155 and play for Featherston Rovers. 00:26:05.725 --> 00:26:08.545 And as a result of that, I went to Featherston. 00:26:08.665 --> 00:26:09.985 And how old were you at this point? 00:26:10.585 --> 00:26:11.515 I was 15. 00:26:11.785 --> 00:26:12.145 Wow. 00:26:12.625 --> 00:26:16.795 So it would've been, it would've been an opportunity to play for 00:26:16.855 --> 00:26:18.865 the, what they call the Cols team. 00:26:19.125 --> 00:26:22.575 And basically, you know, you learn to play rugby league. 00:26:22.935 --> 00:26:23.655 It, it, it's. 00:26:24.225 --> 00:26:26.445 It's rugby, but it's a different type of rugby. 00:26:26.445 --> 00:26:28.395 It's very, very different from rugby union. 00:26:28.395 --> 00:26:32.355 And I'd never played rugby league before, so I went there for six. 00:26:32.355 --> 00:26:32.775 What's the main 00:26:32.775 --> 00:26:33.315 Rupert Isaacson: difference? 00:26:34.965 --> 00:26:39.435 Paul Illingworth: Oh, the main difference basically is when somebody is tackled 00:26:39.435 --> 00:26:43.905 in, in rugby union and you end up going down on the ground, the pack 00:26:43.905 --> 00:26:48.975 form around you in order to be able to protect the ball and keep the ball 00:26:48.975 --> 00:26:53.445 on your side with rugby league when you're tackled, you get up, you and 00:26:53.445 --> 00:26:56.925 you just kick the ball back so there's no rucking, what they call rucking. 00:26:57.345 --> 00:27:02.235 So it's Rugby league is kind of a faster game than rugby Union was at the time. 00:27:02.715 --> 00:27:05.205 But it also was, it was, it was a tough game. 00:27:05.205 --> 00:27:08.745 It was played by by miners, basically. 00:27:08.745 --> 00:27:08.805 Yeah. 00:27:08.805 --> 00:27:10.845 It was Yorkshire, it was Lancashire. 00:27:11.535 --> 00:27:16.185 It was tough and it, for a London boy to go up to Yorkshire and try to play 00:27:16.185 --> 00:27:18.495 rugby league, it just didn't work. 00:27:18.615 --> 00:27:18.645 Okay. 00:27:18.855 --> 00:27:23.295 It wasn't that it, I wasn't used to the, to the environment 00:27:23.295 --> 00:27:24.795 to live in for one thing. 00:27:25.195 --> 00:27:28.975 I wasn't really happy about leaving my family at the time as, as well. 00:27:29.760 --> 00:27:33.420 My dad said I was nuts even considering going to Featherston because he 00:27:33.420 --> 00:27:35.310 hated Featherston as a place. 00:27:35.700 --> 00:27:38.340 And he, you know, he said the only team to play for is Castleford. 00:27:38.400 --> 00:27:41.520 So it just, I went up there, I gave it a go. 00:27:41.880 --> 00:27:44.010 Could I become a professional rugby player? 00:27:44.010 --> 00:27:44.430 Yes. 00:27:44.430 --> 00:27:45.570 There's no doubt about it. 00:27:45.570 --> 00:27:47.610 I had the skills to be able to do it. 00:27:48.240 --> 00:27:50.940 I would've had to have lived in Yorkshire in order to be able to do 00:27:50.940 --> 00:27:54.990 it, you know, and then looking back on it now, it was a no brainer really. 00:27:55.050 --> 00:27:56.640 At 30 years old, I'd be done. 00:27:56.730 --> 00:27:58.170 I wouldn't have made an awful lot of money. 00:27:58.170 --> 00:28:01.050 It's not like soccer where you make millions and millions of dollars. 00:28:01.380 --> 00:28:01.650 Yeah. 00:28:01.700 --> 00:28:04.730 It wasn't particularly well paid and all I was getting when I was 00:28:04.730 --> 00:28:06.410 up there was expenses anyway. 00:28:06.745 --> 00:28:07.190 Yeah, yeah. 00:28:07.540 --> 00:28:10.900 But it was a good, it was a good experience because it gave me the 00:28:10.900 --> 00:28:15.850 opportunity at that age to make the first career decision of my life. 00:28:16.815 --> 00:28:17.355 Rupert Isaacson: Right. 00:28:17.355 --> 00:28:22.275 And also because you had to start this rugby team at school and get it going 00:28:22.275 --> 00:28:26.985 and get it up to this point of excellence from a, a pretty crappy beginning. 00:28:27.165 --> 00:28:27.255 Mm-hmm. 00:28:27.495 --> 00:28:30.495 That would've given you a kind of 00:28:33.345 --> 00:28:39.225 mentor mentorship on the go in leadership and your, your Welsh mentor 00:28:39.225 --> 00:28:40.785 himself must have helped you with that. 00:28:41.205 --> 00:28:44.025 But then by the time you find yourself later going into the 00:28:44.025 --> 00:28:49.605 forces, you already kind of know how to take a group of standard 00:28:49.605 --> 00:28:51.885 idiots and turn them into something. 00:28:52.365 --> 00:28:52.665 Paul Illingworth: Yeah. 00:28:52.875 --> 00:28:57.135 Rupert Isaacson: And if you, I think if you've been doing that since adolescence, 00:28:57.675 --> 00:29:01.575 it's probably something which you don't even notice in yourself probably 00:29:01.575 --> 00:29:04.575 by the time you're getting into your twenties, but that you can command. 00:29:04.905 --> 00:29:09.955 And by commanding I don't mean just bossing people about to know about. 00:29:09.955 --> 00:29:13.195 I mean, actually organizing people and getting a job done. 00:29:13.590 --> 00:29:14.760 That could be a difficult job. 00:29:14.760 --> 00:29:15.870 That could be a scary job. 00:29:17.250 --> 00:29:17.490 Paul Illingworth: Yeah. 00:29:17.495 --> 00:29:19.050 I th I think that's very true. 00:29:19.080 --> 00:29:23.280 I mean, the playing rugby at school, it wasn't just a case of, oh, I'm 00:29:23.280 --> 00:29:26.520 gonna go play rugby at school on a Saturday afternoon, and that's it. 00:29:26.520 --> 00:29:28.650 It was, it was every day of my life. 00:29:28.710 --> 00:29:33.270 I mean, I lived and breathed for rugby and at 13 years old, I started playing 00:29:33.270 --> 00:29:35.070 for the local rugby club as well. 00:29:35.100 --> 00:29:39.720 Because Dave James, who was the gym teacher, played for the local rugby 00:29:39.720 --> 00:29:42.360 club, and they had a, a junior team. 00:29:42.630 --> 00:29:48.060 So 13 years old, I was, I was playing rugby for the club on a Saturday 00:29:48.060 --> 00:29:50.880 afternoon and playing rugby for the school on Saturday morning, 00:29:50.880 --> 00:29:52.740 and we had practice twice a week. 00:29:52.740 --> 00:29:54.960 So, I mean, you know. 00:29:55.635 --> 00:29:59.745 I think a lot of young people today, the problem that, that they have is they, they 00:29:59.745 --> 00:30:01.605 don't know what to do with themselves. 00:30:01.845 --> 00:30:02.145 Mm-hmm. 00:30:02.205 --> 00:30:05.835 You know, and I hate bringing up computer games and things like that. 00:30:05.835 --> 00:30:07.755 There was no computer games when I was growing up. 00:30:07.755 --> 00:30:10.485 I didn't, we didn't even have a television in the house, so it's not like I 00:30:10.485 --> 00:30:11.775 could watch television or do anything. 00:30:12.135 --> 00:30:13.845 You had to go out and do something. 00:30:14.325 --> 00:30:20.655 So rugby for me, rugby for me was, was really the way, I guess, of ignoring 00:30:20.655 --> 00:30:24.225 everything else that was going on and just doing something that I really enjoyed. 00:30:24.225 --> 00:30:24.405 You know? 00:30:24.405 --> 00:30:26.565 I mean, we, you know, like I said, we didn't have any 00:30:26.565 --> 00:30:27.855 money when I was growing up. 00:30:27.855 --> 00:30:27.915 Yeah. 00:30:27.915 --> 00:30:28.785 We didn't have a car. 00:30:29.175 --> 00:30:31.905 My dad had a motorbike, which eventually I inherited. 00:30:32.305 --> 00:30:35.905 But he couldn't ride the motorbike, not after he had his accident. 00:30:36.265 --> 00:30:39.745 My mum used to go and get a groceries on a, on a bicycle, you 00:30:39.745 --> 00:30:41.125 know, with a basket on the front. 00:30:41.155 --> 00:30:47.095 So, you know, but I, but I think, yes, the leadership skills, certainly 00:30:47.095 --> 00:30:48.565 started with the rugby team. 00:30:48.565 --> 00:30:50.125 There's absolutely no doubt about that. 00:30:50.305 --> 00:30:51.865 Rupert Isaacson: I guess too, the thing with leadership is 00:30:51.865 --> 00:30:53.275 it's also responsibility, right? 00:30:53.275 --> 00:30:55.765 If you are the one who says, okay, I'm gonna organize this team. 00:30:55.765 --> 00:30:58.495 I'm gonna be the captain, I'm gonna take a group of boys who 00:30:58.495 --> 00:31:00.895 are aggressive and chaotic. 00:31:01.285 --> 00:31:02.815 It's a, it's a lot of responsibility. 00:31:02.815 --> 00:31:06.085 You have to make it work or you look like it, you know, an idiot. 00:31:06.085 --> 00:31:06.145 Yeah. 00:31:06.655 --> 00:31:08.065 And the pack will turn on you. 00:31:08.575 --> 00:31:08.815 Yeah. 00:31:08.905 --> 00:31:11.625 And, so in a way where it's sort of do or die, isn't it? 00:31:11.625 --> 00:31:12.555 That you have to Yes. 00:31:12.940 --> 00:31:16.155 You, you have to take that risk and that must have been quite intimidating, 00:31:16.155 --> 00:31:20.535 you know, equally going up to, to play rugby in the north like that. 00:31:20.535 --> 00:31:25.965 And, and anyone who's never played rugby, honestly, you know, it was compulsory 00:31:25.965 --> 00:31:27.405 at school when I, when I was a kid. 00:31:27.675 --> 00:31:33.435 It, when Ablo like Paul is running at you, he's gonna hit you like a car, you 00:31:33.435 --> 00:31:36.165 know, and you know it's gonna hurt, right? 00:31:36.255 --> 00:31:38.115 Or if I, I am not a big guy. 00:31:38.115 --> 00:31:43.185 If I have to tackle Paul, I've gotta hope that three of my mates are gonna 00:31:43.185 --> 00:31:45.645 jump on as well, or it's just not fair. 00:31:45.645 --> 00:31:49.575 I'm just sort of hanging onto his leg, just keeps running up the pitch, kicking 00:31:49.575 --> 00:31:53.775 at my face, you know, as, as he does it, there is quite a lot of fear involved. 00:31:53.775 --> 00:31:57.805 And when you end up on the bottom of the scrum, you know, when it collapses it 00:31:57.805 --> 00:31:58.855 doesn't matter actually how big you are. 00:31:58.855 --> 00:32:02.095 You can't breathe, you know, and I, I, you know, that panic that you get 00:32:02.095 --> 00:32:06.385 when you, you just have to sort of wait until you can breathe again. 00:32:06.835 --> 00:32:07.255 So. 00:32:08.290 --> 00:32:14.920 I do wonder, you know, one of the things which I think young men need is they do 00:32:14.920 --> 00:32:18.040 need a certain amount of risk and they do need a certain amount of danger. 00:32:18.280 --> 00:32:21.670 We are supposed to go and hunt wildebeest with a spear kind of thing. 00:32:22.230 --> 00:32:30.090 And do you feel that that's just less available these days? 00:32:30.210 --> 00:32:32.520 Because I, I feel that young men need it, like they need oxygen. 00:32:34.500 --> 00:32:38.700 Paul Illingworth: I, yes, it most definitely is unavailable. 00:32:39.060 --> 00:32:43.920 But I think society has had an awful lot to do with this, Rupert, because 00:32:44.880 --> 00:32:47.700 we, we multi, we mollycoddle kids now. 00:32:48.300 --> 00:32:49.410 There's no doubt about it. 00:32:49.410 --> 00:32:51.090 I know I'm not, I'm not a firm believer. 00:32:51.090 --> 00:32:53.640 I don't think we should be going around beating our kids for no. 00:32:53.670 --> 00:32:55.050 Every single thing that we do. 00:32:55.140 --> 00:32:58.020 But the trouble is they're getting wrapped in cotton wool. 00:32:58.710 --> 00:33:00.870 They're being, they're, they're being protected. 00:33:00.870 --> 00:33:05.160 You know, you get a situation where if anything happens at school, if somebody 00:33:05.160 --> 00:33:09.000 even turns around and yells at somebody, the parents can get called into the 00:33:09.000 --> 00:33:10.800 school and the child gets disciplined. 00:33:11.100 --> 00:33:11.430 Mm-hmm. 00:33:11.430 --> 00:33:16.470 You know, there's is, you know, it's, it's easy for me in my sixties to 00:33:16.470 --> 00:33:19.650 turn around and say that, you know, we produced a soft generation because 00:33:19.650 --> 00:33:23.430 my father used to say exactly the same thing, you know about me when I was 00:33:23.430 --> 00:33:27.145 growing up, and everybody says that, but I think it's just got to the point now. 00:33:28.155 --> 00:33:33.555 Where there isn't enough things for, particularly for young men to do that 00:33:33.555 --> 00:33:39.165 really challenge them enough and, and not only, not just challenge them 00:33:39.165 --> 00:33:44.415 physically, but but challenge them mentally and prepare them for the world. 00:33:44.415 --> 00:33:46.275 I mean, the world's a scary place, right? 00:33:46.785 --> 00:33:46.975 Yes, it is. 00:33:46.975 --> 00:33:47.865 The world is a scary place. 00:33:47.865 --> 00:33:48.555 Believe you're me. 00:33:48.555 --> 00:33:51.795 I mean, you know, I'm still scared of some of the things that I see happen. 00:33:52.095 --> 00:33:55.155 I'm terrified when I go out and try driving on the roads at the moment. 00:33:55.455 --> 00:33:55.575 Yeah. 00:33:55.655 --> 00:34:01.145 But you know, there, there's, there isn't enough things for, but, and I don't 00:34:01.145 --> 00:34:03.575 know, you know, I, I agree with you 100%. 00:34:03.575 --> 00:34:06.935 There's a huge difference between young men and young women, the way that they, 00:34:06.965 --> 00:34:11.915 they interact, but young girls aren't really brought up to be scared of things. 00:34:12.305 --> 00:34:16.955 And, and, and, but young men seem to have lost. 00:34:17.555 --> 00:34:21.095 The whole sense of, of fear and, and, and they don't want 00:34:21.095 --> 00:34:22.595 anything to do with it anymore. 00:34:22.685 --> 00:34:28.055 I think this is why they become insular and they go to things like computer games 00:34:28.055 --> 00:34:31.865 because they don't wanna actually face what's going on outside in the real world. 00:34:31.895 --> 00:34:32.495 And interestingly, 00:34:32.495 --> 00:34:33.995 Rupert Isaacson: a lot of the computer games are showing the 00:34:33.995 --> 00:34:36.125 very things that Yeah, right. 00:34:36.125 --> 00:34:37.535 In the old days they'd have actually been doing 00:34:38.045 --> 00:34:40.565 Paul Illingworth: Exactly, that's exactly what they are. 00:34:41.375 --> 00:34:43.865 Rupert Isaacson: So, alright, then tell us, you enter the 00:34:43.865 --> 00:34:46.025 forces, you go into the Navy. 00:34:46.445 --> 00:34:46.685 Paul Illingworth: Mm-hmm. 00:34:46.955 --> 00:34:49.655 Rupert Isaacson: Do you do that just because it's not what your dad wants you 00:34:49.655 --> 00:34:51.425 to do or do you do that to a certain ex? 00:34:51.575 --> 00:34:53.105 Paul Illingworth: No, to a certain extent, yes. 00:34:53.105 --> 00:34:53.375 And what's 00:34:53.375 --> 00:34:54.065 Rupert Isaacson: his reaction? 00:34:54.875 --> 00:34:55.475 Paul Illingworth: No, he hated it. 00:34:55.715 --> 00:34:57.965 I don't think we talked for the first two years. 00:34:58.505 --> 00:35:01.925 I mean, I was, I was going away for long periods of time, you know, I 00:35:01.925 --> 00:35:03.575 mean, I'd be gone for nine months. 00:35:03.605 --> 00:35:03.665 Yeah. 00:35:03.745 --> 00:35:04.540 So, and, and. 00:35:05.110 --> 00:35:08.440 But, you know, my mother and I used to write letters every week. 00:35:08.440 --> 00:35:11.890 I mean, I've still got a big box full of letters that my mother wrote me 00:35:11.890 --> 00:35:16.660 while I, in my early days in the Navy, I was very, very close to my mum. 00:35:16.660 --> 00:35:18.940 She was the one that used to get me up at five o'clock in the 00:35:18.940 --> 00:35:20.350 morning to do my paper round. 00:35:20.350 --> 00:35:22.570 She'd gimme a cup of tea, she'd gimme some toast. 00:35:23.080 --> 00:35:23.350 Yeah. 00:35:23.400 --> 00:35:25.050 I was very, very close to her. 00:35:25.560 --> 00:35:28.920 I don't think, I never got a letter from my father at any point in time. 00:35:28.920 --> 00:35:30.930 I mean, he didn't really believe in writing anyway. 00:35:30.930 --> 00:35:33.660 There was no telephones or anything like that in those days. 00:35:33.660 --> 00:35:36.330 There's no way of communicating other than through letters. 00:35:36.690 --> 00:35:37.515 But he, he was angry with 00:35:37.710 --> 00:35:38.640 Rupert Isaacson: you for going in the Navy. 00:35:38.700 --> 00:35:39.360 Paul Illingworth: He was, yeah. 00:35:39.360 --> 00:35:42.030 He was, he, he was ang he was angry. 00:35:42.480 --> 00:35:44.370 He was pretty well angry all the time. 00:35:44.370 --> 00:35:47.820 I think the only thing he really liked about me growing up was playing rugby. 00:35:48.210 --> 00:35:48.330 Right. 00:35:48.400 --> 00:35:51.370 And even then when I made the decision not to go to Castleford and 00:35:51.370 --> 00:35:53.170 play rugby, he was annoyed at that. 00:35:53.170 --> 00:35:56.740 And then I decided I was gonna go in the Navy and not in the Army. 00:35:56.740 --> 00:36:00.070 And as I said, my first choice would've been the Air Force anyway, but Right. 00:36:00.580 --> 00:36:03.340 It was, it was the Navy. 00:36:04.180 --> 00:36:09.520 I'll be, I'll be quite honest with you, the Navy was a, an easy solution for me. 00:36:10.150 --> 00:36:12.130 And that's probably why I took that route. 00:36:12.160 --> 00:36:16.090 I know it's, it, it's not necessarily the way that I have done things since 00:36:16.090 --> 00:36:21.970 then, but at that time it was the easiest way for me to get out the house, go 00:36:21.970 --> 00:36:25.690 and see some of the world, which was the big thing because I didn't have to 00:36:25.690 --> 00:36:31.360 get posted in the UK or go to a train in school or go to college for months. 00:36:31.600 --> 00:36:36.880 I went to a ship, I went out to Singapore, I went to a ship and I was gone. 00:36:37.480 --> 00:36:37.780 Right. 00:36:37.780 --> 00:36:40.450 I started seeing the world from day one, literally. 00:36:40.480 --> 00:36:42.880 And that was the big appeal I wanted to travel. 00:36:44.380 --> 00:36:45.610 Rupert Isaacson: What did you do in the Navy? 00:36:45.610 --> 00:36:46.240 What was the job? 00:36:46.825 --> 00:36:49.925 Paul Illingworth: I was I started off as a, as a weaponry officer. 00:36:50.705 --> 00:36:54.755 And then when I moved from the Royal Navy into the Merchant Navy 00:36:55.165 --> 00:36:58.345 I had sufficient time in the Royal Navy and the qualifications to 00:36:58.345 --> 00:37:00.815 be able to go to Naval College. 00:37:01.365 --> 00:37:04.875 And worked my way up through the certification process. 00:37:04.880 --> 00:37:08.415 So, so that I ended up with a captain certificate, so it would've 00:37:08.415 --> 00:37:10.935 taken a lot of years in the Royal Navy to get to that point. 00:37:10.935 --> 00:37:11.025 Right. 00:37:11.025 --> 00:37:12.705 But in the Merchant Navy, it was quicker. 00:37:13.035 --> 00:37:13.335 Rupert Isaacson: Okay. 00:37:13.335 --> 00:37:18.105 So that was gonna be a question A, why did you choose the merchant Navy B? 00:37:18.165 --> 00:37:21.225 Explain to, and again, not everyone knows the British system, so if you can explain 00:37:21.225 --> 00:37:26.495 what the Merchant Navy is and talk us through what life was like with that. 00:37:26.495 --> 00:37:28.985 So, so first, why the change, then what is it? 00:37:28.985 --> 00:37:30.275 And then talk us through life. 00:37:30.575 --> 00:37:35.675 As you know, if you followed any of my work, I'm an autism dad and we have 00:37:35.675 --> 00:37:42.235 a whole career before this podcast in helping people with neurodivergence, 00:37:42.914 --> 00:37:45.135 either who are professionals in the field. 00:37:45.214 --> 00:37:46.055 Are you a therapist? 00:37:46.475 --> 00:37:47.745 Are you a caregiver? 00:37:48.135 --> 00:37:49.145 Are you a parent? 00:37:49.580 --> 00:37:51.610 Or are you somebody with neurodivergence? 00:37:53.050 --> 00:37:57.990 When my son, Rowan, was diagnosed with autism in 2004, 00:37:58.030 --> 00:37:59.660 I really didn't know what to do. 00:37:59.860 --> 00:38:05.129 So I reached out for mentorship, and I found it through an amazing adult 00:38:05.170 --> 00:38:07.970 autistic woman who's very famous, Dr. 00:38:08.120 --> 00:38:09.010 Temple Grandin. 00:38:09.210 --> 00:38:10.850 And she told me what to do. 00:38:10.900 --> 00:38:15.140 And it's been working so amazingly for the last 20 years. 00:38:15.490 --> 00:38:19.940 That not only is my son basically independent, but we've helped 00:38:20.200 --> 00:38:23.950 countless, countless thousands of others reach the same goal. 00:38:24.290 --> 00:38:28.190 Working in schools, working at home, working in therapy settings. 00:38:29.220 --> 00:38:33.660 If you would like to learn this cutting edge, neuroscience backed 00:38:33.879 --> 00:38:35.919 approach, it's called Movement Method. 00:38:36.579 --> 00:38:39.937 You can learn it online, you can learn it very, very simply. 00:38:39.937 --> 00:38:42.199 It's almost laughably simple. 00:38:43.140 --> 00:38:45.840 The important thing is to begin. 00:38:46.770 --> 00:38:49.920 Let yourself be mentored as I was by Dr. 00:38:49.920 --> 00:38:53.210 Grandin and see what results can follow. 00:38:54.240 --> 00:38:57.170 Go to this website, newtrailslearning. 00:38:59.440 --> 00:39:01.945 com Sign up as a gold member. 00:39:02.385 --> 00:39:05.275 Take the online movement method course. 00:39:05.765 --> 00:39:07.135 It's in 40 countries. 00:39:07.745 --> 00:39:09.805 Let us know how it goes for you. 00:39:10.005 --> 00:39:10.774 We really want to know. 00:39:10.785 --> 00:39:15.284 We really want to help people like me, people like you, out there 00:39:15.634 --> 00:39:18.915 live their best life, to live free, ride free, see what happens. 00:39:19.905 --> 00:39:20.175 Paul Illingworth: Okay. 00:39:20.175 --> 00:39:24.505 Well, the, the, the main reason for the change was, money. 00:39:25.410 --> 00:39:25.700 Okay? 00:39:25.825 --> 00:39:29.425 You earn a lot more money in the Merchant Navy than you did in the Royal Navy. 00:39:29.855 --> 00:39:34.355 Also it was to do with the ranking systems of the two different navies. 00:39:34.355 --> 00:39:38.105 Now, the Merchant Navy is the same as the, the US Merchant Marine. 00:39:38.655 --> 00:39:42.495 You could join the Merchant Marine and you can go to college as a, as a cadet 00:39:42.495 --> 00:39:46.505 officer and work your way up through the, through the different ranks in 00:39:46.505 --> 00:39:48.365 the Merchant Navy to become a captain. 00:39:48.905 --> 00:39:51.245 The Royal Navy pretty well, works the same way, except the 00:39:51.245 --> 00:39:53.135 process is, is a lot slower. 00:39:53.745 --> 00:39:57.255 In order to be get to become a captain in the Royal Navy, you'd probably have 00:39:57.255 --> 00:39:59.565 to have 25 or 30 years of service. 00:39:59.565 --> 00:40:02.955 You could get to captain in the Merchant Navy with 10 years of service. 00:40:02.955 --> 00:40:04.845 So it was a much, much quicker process. 00:40:05.475 --> 00:40:08.955 Merchant Navy paid a a lot more money than the Royal Navy, and I 00:40:08.955 --> 00:40:15.105 was, I was quite lucky in that I followed my and my older cousin. 00:40:15.810 --> 00:40:17.880 Really was, he was kind of like my mentor. 00:40:17.880 --> 00:40:19.500 He went into the Merchant Navy. 00:40:19.500 --> 00:40:22.320 He was 12 years older than me, and he was more like a big brother 00:40:22.320 --> 00:40:24.240 than a, than a than a cousin. 00:40:24.870 --> 00:40:29.910 He went straight into the Merchant Navy fairly shortly probably six or seven 00:40:29.910 --> 00:40:31.920 years after he went in the merchant Navy. 00:40:31.950 --> 00:40:34.350 He went into the oil and gas business. 00:40:34.710 --> 00:40:36.210 That's where the big money was. 00:40:36.790 --> 00:40:40.180 So I was able, when I went in the Merchant Navy to do a couple of 00:40:40.210 --> 00:40:43.870 trips on, on big cargo ships, see a bit of the world doing that. 00:40:44.170 --> 00:40:47.470 And then I moved into the oil and gas business and the oil and gas business, 00:40:47.470 --> 00:40:51.610 which was basically working on supply boats that ran supplies to the oil rigs. 00:40:52.180 --> 00:40:54.460 That's where, where the money really was. 00:40:54.460 --> 00:40:56.980 So, you know, it was a transition. 00:40:57.790 --> 00:41:01.570 From really just one naval service to another naval service 00:41:01.690 --> 00:41:02.950 doing something different. 00:41:03.460 --> 00:41:06.490 Not so much of the, the military regime. 00:41:06.980 --> 00:41:09.650 You know, not so much of the Yes sir, no sir. 00:41:09.650 --> 00:41:12.110 Three bags full serve that you had in the Royal Navy. 00:41:12.110 --> 00:41:16.290 A a lot more relaxed and to be quite honest with you, a lot more fun. 00:41:17.130 --> 00:41:18.000 Why is it more fun? 00:41:19.410 --> 00:41:25.320 It's, it, I I'm not really the type of person that, that is a disciplinarian. 00:41:25.390 --> 00:41:29.200 I never really enjoyed the Yes, sir, no sir. 00:41:29.200 --> 00:41:34.075 Stuff that came with the, with being in the Royal Navy, there was, so, it was a 00:41:34.080 --> 00:41:37.900 more relaxed atmosphere, which I think just, just made it a little bit more fun. 00:41:38.380 --> 00:41:43.570 Also, the other thing as well is, you know, when you go ashore, when you're 00:41:43.570 --> 00:41:47.650 in the Navy and you've been at sea a long time, and you go ashore, you know, 00:41:47.650 --> 00:41:49.960 you wanna really go and enjoy yourself. 00:41:50.830 --> 00:41:54.880 In the Royal Navy, if you enjoyed yourself a little bit too, too much, there would 00:41:54.880 --> 00:41:58.180 be somebody there to put handcuffs on you and take you back to the ship. 00:41:58.480 --> 00:41:58.750 Right. 00:41:58.750 --> 00:42:03.820 In the Merchant Navy, you just had to avoid the local police, and that was a lot 00:42:03.820 --> 00:42:06.355 easier than avoid avoiding the the sps. 00:42:07.920 --> 00:42:09.390 So that's why it was more fun. 00:42:09.570 --> 00:42:17.520 And I went, I went to some very, very remote very uncivilized places when 00:42:17.520 --> 00:42:19.170 I was in the, in the merchant Navy. 00:42:19.950 --> 00:42:23.250 I worked in Nigeria, well, I worked in Nigeria for a number of years. 00:42:23.250 --> 00:42:25.680 I worked in Angola when the war was going on. 00:42:25.740 --> 00:42:26.040 Mm-hmm. 00:42:26.520 --> 00:42:31.720 Were East Africa, went all around India all around South America pretty well. 00:42:32.320 --> 00:42:34.930 I don't think there's, there's very many coasts in the world. 00:42:34.930 --> 00:42:38.560 I haven't actually touched at some point in time, but I spent a lot of time 00:42:38.560 --> 00:42:42.790 working in Africa and you really see some terrible, terrible things there. 00:42:43.210 --> 00:42:43.900 Rupert Isaacson: What did you see? 00:42:45.565 --> 00:42:46.345 Paul Illingworth: A lot of death. 00:42:47.605 --> 00:42:47.725 A lot. 00:42:47.725 --> 00:42:47.785 What sort of 00:42:47.785 --> 00:42:48.595 Rupert Isaacson: death and why? 00:42:48.905 --> 00:42:50.915 Paul Illingworth: Just dead bodies lying on the side of the road. 00:42:50.915 --> 00:42:54.215 Poverty, starvation, shooting robbery. 00:42:54.245 --> 00:42:58.055 It was India, this was Nigeria, specifically Nigeria. 00:42:58.055 --> 00:43:00.125 Nigeria, Angola was the same. 00:43:00.125 --> 00:43:01.535 Civil war was going on there. 00:43:01.535 --> 00:43:04.175 Virtually the whole of West Africa, and I was there in the, 00:43:04.175 --> 00:43:05.885 in the eighties was just a mess. 00:43:06.545 --> 00:43:07.415 But the ports that you 00:43:07.415 --> 00:43:09.785 Rupert Isaacson: were landing in had a certain amount of security to them? 00:43:10.355 --> 00:43:11.255 Paul Illingworth: Not really, no. 00:43:11.255 --> 00:43:12.455 They were pretty well open. 00:43:12.615 --> 00:43:17.320 And, and that was half the problem as well, you know, I mean, we were working 00:43:17.320 --> 00:43:19.105 on, on the offshore supply boats. 00:43:19.105 --> 00:43:21.910 Pirate wasn't really an issue then. 00:43:21.910 --> 00:43:24.730 The pirate in thing didn't, I was gonna ask you about piracy, you know, 00:43:24.730 --> 00:43:26.650 compared to today off Yemen, for example. 00:43:26.650 --> 00:43:28.270 Oh, it's, it's terrible Today. 00:43:28.270 --> 00:43:30.520 I, I would, I would not want a to. 00:43:30.955 --> 00:43:32.515 Be having to deal with that. 00:43:32.815 --> 00:43:37.255 You know, when we, we carried guns on board more for protection against 00:43:37.255 --> 00:43:38.815 robbers and things like that. 00:43:38.925 --> 00:43:43.065 Now they say, I mean, to deal with pirates, now they've got AK 40 00:43:43.065 --> 00:43:44.925 sevens, they've got automatic weapons. 00:43:44.925 --> 00:43:47.445 You know, you don't really want to get involved in things like that. 00:43:47.445 --> 00:43:52.535 It was a, it was a lot simpler when I was doing things in 00:43:52.535 --> 00:43:54.634 West Africa apart from Angola. 00:43:54.634 --> 00:43:57.109 And that, that is a different story because I, yeah, I, I, 00:43:57.180 --> 00:43:58.230 that was the, the war zone. 00:43:58.230 --> 00:43:59.549 Yeah, it was the war zone. 00:43:59.794 --> 00:43:59.944 Yeah. 00:43:59.975 --> 00:44:02.254 We'll talk about, we can talk about that a bit later on. 00:44:02.645 --> 00:44:02.765 Okay. 00:44:02.875 --> 00:44:05.575 But it was really just a case of protecting yourself. 00:44:05.575 --> 00:44:06.475 You know, you had to. 00:44:08.170 --> 00:44:10.960 My, shall we say, some of the training that I received when I 00:44:10.960 --> 00:44:14.320 was in the military helped me a lot in terms of personal protection. 00:44:14.440 --> 00:44:18.910 That I had a few instances in West Africa where I had to look after myself. 00:44:19.430 --> 00:44:20.540 And that helped a lot. 00:44:20.630 --> 00:44:24.680 But it was really just, if you went ashore, you went ashore in a group and you 00:44:24.680 --> 00:44:27.090 were armed you, you just had to be armed. 00:44:27.090 --> 00:44:27.930 It's as simple as that. 00:44:27.930 --> 00:44:30.870 Not necessarily with a gun, but we used to take knives and clubs 00:44:30.870 --> 00:44:33.030 and things like that with us. 00:44:33.140 --> 00:44:37.910 And you know, to a certain extent it, it was just a way of life. 00:44:38.300 --> 00:44:39.140 Was I scared? 00:44:39.140 --> 00:44:39.470 No. 00:44:39.650 --> 00:44:41.150 You know, would it stop me going to shore? 00:44:41.150 --> 00:44:45.080 No, but it stopped me doing all the things I did know because I wasn't 00:44:45.080 --> 00:44:46.940 really, I wasn't, I just wasn't scared. 00:44:46.940 --> 00:44:47.990 It's as simple as that. 00:44:48.320 --> 00:44:49.490 Rupert Isaacson: Why do you think you weren't scared 00:44:52.160 --> 00:44:53.090 given that it was scary? 00:44:55.730 --> 00:44:58.850 Paul Illingworth: That's a good, I think it all comes back to. 00:44:59.540 --> 00:45:02.030 Just the way that I prepared myself for life. 00:45:02.090 --> 00:45:06.410 There's, there's nothing I can honestly say that, that really scares me. 00:45:06.410 --> 00:45:08.840 I mean, you, you know, you know my background, Rupert, you know, and 00:45:08.840 --> 00:45:13.419 I I'll happily toss myself out of an airplane, you know, any point in 00:45:13.419 --> 00:45:15.369 time and hope the parachutes work. 00:45:15.369 --> 00:45:16.899 It's, I, I don't know. 00:45:16.899 --> 00:45:20.019 You know, I, I think the fear is something that you build up inside you. 00:45:20.019 --> 00:45:23.410 And if you let it overtake you, it can do you a lot of harm. 00:45:23.410 --> 00:45:25.419 And the simplest thing is push it to one side. 00:45:25.569 --> 00:45:26.950 Just get on and deal with life. 00:45:26.950 --> 00:45:28.089 And that's what I've always done. 00:45:28.959 --> 00:45:32.769 I was bullied, believe it or not, I was bullied as a kid. 00:45:32.799 --> 00:45:36.700 One of the things we haven't touched on is when I was 10 years old I was riding 00:45:36.700 --> 00:45:38.740 my bicycle and I got hit by a car. 00:45:38.799 --> 00:45:40.509 Very, very lucky to survive. 00:45:40.899 --> 00:45:43.569 I have a scar that goes from here all the way, my face, 00:45:43.569 --> 00:45:44.709 and around the back of my ear. 00:45:44.709 --> 00:45:46.479 I had 140 stitches there. 00:45:46.479 --> 00:45:48.189 I had another scar down here. 00:45:48.899 --> 00:45:50.789 My head hit the, the curb. 00:45:50.789 --> 00:45:51.929 I wasn't wearing a helmet. 00:45:52.589 --> 00:45:54.269 Smashed open the back of my head. 00:45:54.989 --> 00:45:59.369 As a result of that, I got bullied at school 'cause the kids called me 00:45:59.369 --> 00:46:04.589 Scarface, the older kids, a lot of whom were the, some of the immigrants I talked 00:46:04.589 --> 00:46:08.909 about, I got bullied and I, I just, I had to learn, stand up for myself. 00:46:08.909 --> 00:46:13.049 My father's attitude was basically, if you're gonna get into a fight, 00:46:13.109 --> 00:46:14.699 have something to help you win it. 00:46:15.719 --> 00:46:16.529 I got bullied. 00:46:17.339 --> 00:46:18.899 It happened two or three times. 00:46:18.970 --> 00:46:22.419 I ended up picking up a branch of a tree, hitting a couple of kids with it. 00:46:22.419 --> 00:46:23.559 They never touched me again. 00:46:23.919 --> 00:46:24.279 Mm-hmm. 00:46:24.879 --> 00:46:28.809 And I'd be one of these people that if threatened, I just lash out. 00:46:29.589 --> 00:46:31.059 You know, I am a fighter. 00:46:31.240 --> 00:46:32.619 I always have been a fighter. 00:46:33.259 --> 00:46:37.039 I've certainly quieted down a little bit now, but you know, you know me 00:46:37.039 --> 00:46:40.009 well enough to know that I won't put up with any crap from anybody. 00:46:40.279 --> 00:46:41.719 And No, but interestingly, 00:46:41.719 --> 00:46:44.239 Rupert Isaacson: I do know that about you, but I also know you as actually 00:46:44.239 --> 00:46:47.629 a very tolerant man with actually you've got a short fuse in that. 00:46:48.184 --> 00:46:52.384 You, you can be a bit grumpy, but one of the things I've always respected 00:46:52.384 --> 00:46:55.524 about you, Paul, is actually you don't throw your weight around. 00:46:55.594 --> 00:46:58.114 You could, 'cause I think we're gonna, let's go into some more of 00:46:58.114 --> 00:47:00.964 your background in a minute, but I, I've never seen you be a bully. 00:47:01.364 --> 00:47:02.384 I've never seen you be cruel. 00:47:02.384 --> 00:47:06.584 I've never seen you use that power misuse, that power. 00:47:07.034 --> 00:47:08.204 So yes. 00:47:08.204 --> 00:47:10.784 I mean, I think if, if somebody threatens you or something like sure. 00:47:10.784 --> 00:47:15.764 I mean, you, I, I don't think I would want to do that, but I've ne oddly enough, I've 00:47:15.764 --> 00:47:18.324 never seen you misuse that aggression. 00:47:18.484 --> 00:47:18.544 No, 00:47:19.114 --> 00:47:21.064 Paul Illingworth: I don't, I don't, I use it to defend myself. 00:47:21.154 --> 00:47:21.274 Mm-hmm. 00:47:22.024 --> 00:47:25.654 It's a, it's a, it's a, it's just a defensive reaction. 00:47:26.044 --> 00:47:26.344 Mm-hmm. 00:47:26.469 --> 00:47:30.004 And, and I mean, you know, anybody in the same situation, 00:47:30.544 --> 00:47:31.954 you know, you can do two things. 00:47:32.164 --> 00:47:35.194 You can run or you can stand and fight. 00:47:36.034 --> 00:47:37.264 And I've run. 00:47:37.684 --> 00:47:40.174 At times, and I can't run very well. 00:47:40.174 --> 00:47:42.124 Sometimes it's very much the right thing to do, but sometimes it's 00:47:42.124 --> 00:47:43.234 definitely the right thing to do. 00:47:43.654 --> 00:47:47.284 Other times, other times it's stand up and fight and sometimes you 00:47:47.284 --> 00:47:48.544 don't have a need to, to fight. 00:47:48.544 --> 00:47:50.134 You just have to stand up for yourself. 00:47:50.134 --> 00:47:51.184 It's as simple as that. 00:47:51.724 --> 00:47:56.254 But, but again, you know, you, you asked me why am I not afraid of anything? 00:47:56.284 --> 00:47:59.644 I mean, I guess I'll, I may well find something I'm afraid of. 00:47:59.644 --> 00:48:02.974 Like I said, the one thing terrifies me at the moment is driving on the roads 00:48:03.004 --> 00:48:06.694 because it, it, they're just, there's so many idiots out there and it just seems 00:48:06.694 --> 00:48:08.194 to be getting worse and worse and worse. 00:48:08.194 --> 00:48:11.794 And I think there's more chance of dying in a car wreck than anything else. 00:48:11.794 --> 00:48:12.424 I mean, I'm not, yeah. 00:48:12.814 --> 00:48:15.574 You know, I don't have to deal with wild animals. 00:48:15.704 --> 00:48:18.134 I don't have to deal with, with war anymore. 00:48:18.134 --> 00:48:21.044 There's no, there's really no fighting, no war or anything like 00:48:21.044 --> 00:48:22.364 that, that I would get involved in. 00:48:22.694 --> 00:48:25.394 So the most dangerous thing I do is go out and drive. 00:48:25.514 --> 00:48:26.474 I ride a motorbike. 00:48:27.149 --> 00:48:28.529 I was on the motorbike yesterday. 00:48:28.889 --> 00:48:29.519 That is dangerous. 00:48:29.519 --> 00:48:29.834 I riding motorbike. 00:48:30.114 --> 00:48:30.434 Dangerous. 00:48:30.439 --> 00:48:33.689 I've rid, but I've ridden a bike since I was 10, 11 years old. 00:48:33.839 --> 00:48:33.959 Mm-hmm. 00:48:33.959 --> 00:48:36.059 You know, only had a couple of spills. 00:48:36.059 --> 00:48:40.019 Fortunately Touchwood, I've never seriously hurt myself, but you've just 00:48:40.019 --> 00:48:45.299 gotta be, you've gotta be def you, you have to ride defensively yesterday and 00:48:45.299 --> 00:48:46.829 it's just like everything else, isn't it? 00:48:46.949 --> 00:48:48.209 You gotta be defensive. 00:48:48.779 --> 00:48:48.929 Yeah. 00:48:48.929 --> 00:48:51.419 You just gotta be prepared to look after yourself. 00:48:51.899 --> 00:48:53.249 That's really what it comes down to. 00:48:53.249 --> 00:48:53.519 So 00:48:53.519 --> 00:48:55.919 Rupert Isaacson: you were talking about war there, so let's talk about that. 00:48:55.919 --> 00:48:59.239 So, how do you end up going from the Merchant Navy back into the 00:48:59.239 --> 00:49:01.969 forces and end up in Special forces? 00:49:01.969 --> 00:49:03.114 What's the trick to be there? 00:49:03.114 --> 00:49:03.314 Okay. 00:49:03.349 --> 00:49:07.169 Paul Illingworth: Well, when I was in the, in the Royal Navy I was given 00:49:07.169 --> 00:49:12.569 the opportunity to move sideways into the Royal Marine Commandos. 00:49:13.059 --> 00:49:17.319 Which is, which is just like the, the American Marines. 00:49:17.319 --> 00:49:20.229 The Marines are part of the US Navy. 00:49:20.874 --> 00:49:24.354 So they're Royal Marine Commandos are actually technically not 00:49:24.354 --> 00:49:25.524 part of the British Army. 00:49:25.524 --> 00:49:28.044 They're, they're more part of the British Navy. 00:49:28.814 --> 00:49:33.074 I was always interested in special forces, special forces training 00:49:33.074 --> 00:49:34.514 because of what my father went through. 00:49:35.534 --> 00:49:39.224 And so when an opportunity came for me to step sideways, if you like, 00:49:39.224 --> 00:49:41.714 into the RMC, I took that opportunity. 00:49:42.314 --> 00:49:48.444 And as a result of that ended up going to going to Special Forces Selection, 00:49:49.014 --> 00:49:51.054 which I failed miserably the first time. 00:49:51.704 --> 00:49:55.514 And then going through it again a second time, I managed, I didn't 00:49:55.514 --> 00:49:56.864 know they gave you a second chance. 00:49:56.864 --> 00:49:57.404 That's interesting. 00:49:57.404 --> 00:49:57.914 Yeah, they do. 00:49:58.004 --> 00:49:58.574 They do. 00:49:58.694 --> 00:50:00.104 Yes, you can go back again. 00:50:00.764 --> 00:50:05.234 And I ended up going back and, and basically getting through that. 00:50:05.234 --> 00:50:09.774 So, so that was how how I ended up getting through and, and. 00:50:10.509 --> 00:50:15.249 I just carried that, that training and that responsibility through with 00:50:15.249 --> 00:50:20.229 some of the other stuff that I got, that I got involved in later on, so. 00:50:20.319 --> 00:50:20.829 Rupert Isaacson: Okay. 00:50:20.859 --> 00:50:24.069 So what did you get involved in later on? 00:50:24.069 --> 00:50:25.959 You, you ended up in the SASI know. 00:50:26.059 --> 00:50:27.859 Tell us what you wanna tell us. 00:50:29.419 --> 00:50:32.044 Paul Illingworth: I can't really say too much about anything that, 00:50:32.209 --> 00:50:35.239 that, that happened during that period, to be quite honest with 00:50:35.239 --> 00:50:36.469 you, and I'd really rather not. 00:50:36.709 --> 00:50:37.009 Hmm. 00:50:37.069 --> 00:50:41.119 However, one of the interesting things that, that did happen later 00:50:41.119 --> 00:50:45.079 on when I was in the oil and gas business, I was I was working in 00:50:45.079 --> 00:50:48.889 Angola when the war was actually on the, the Civil War was going on. 00:50:49.639 --> 00:50:54.539 And through some contacts that I had that I met down there there was an 00:50:54.539 --> 00:51:00.359 opportunity to, to actually do some work for the night for the Angola government. 00:51:00.689 --> 00:51:05.339 So basically what the, the situation in, in Angola was that you had two 00:51:05.339 --> 00:51:09.329 different political parties as quite often happens with a civil war. 00:51:09.929 --> 00:51:14.969 And you had one ruling party, which was NPLA, and there was another ruling. 00:51:15.029 --> 00:51:20.459 There was another party, which was you to, and the, the Civil War was really 00:51:20.789 --> 00:51:23.279 you to, was being funded by the Russians. 00:51:23.579 --> 00:51:28.679 MPLA was being funded, if you like, by the West, by non Russians. 00:51:29.309 --> 00:51:33.659 The Russian funding got to the point where they were starting to, to get tooled up 00:51:33.659 --> 00:51:35.579 with some very, very serious equipment. 00:51:36.289 --> 00:51:41.739 And the government needed some help, if you like suppressing some 00:51:41.739 --> 00:51:44.709 of the things that were going on, particularly fairly close to Luanda, 00:51:45.099 --> 00:51:46.629 which was a capital of Angola. 00:51:47.349 --> 00:51:54.549 So as a result of some of the associations that I had I was able to step to one 00:51:54.549 --> 00:51:58.449 side of the oil and gas work that I was actually doing because I was working down 00:51:58.449 --> 00:52:02.649 there as a consultant for Sogo, which is a national oil company of Angola. 00:52:03.039 --> 00:52:06.829 So I got to meet some very high people up in the government including the 00:52:06.829 --> 00:52:08.599 president of the country at the time. 00:52:09.139 --> 00:52:14.079 And, ended up, if you like, helping them with some of the military 00:52:14.139 --> 00:52:15.879 issues that, that, that they had. 00:52:15.999 --> 00:52:22.099 It was really more protecting some of the, some of the, as the oil and gas assets 00:52:22.099 --> 00:52:26.209 that they had that were being threatened by the, should we say, the Rebel forces. 00:52:27.049 --> 00:52:29.989 And you know, there were, there were South African mercenaries 00:52:29.989 --> 00:52:31.039 that were actually working there. 00:52:31.039 --> 00:52:34.879 Ex special forces guys from South Africa that were working in Angola all the time. 00:52:35.389 --> 00:52:37.339 I had some association with them. 00:52:37.709 --> 00:52:41.459 Not working as a, I didn't work as a mercenary per se, but I, but I was 00:52:41.459 --> 00:52:46.439 associated with some, should we say some of the strategic decisions that were made 00:52:46.439 --> 00:52:49.199 in order to be able to help protect Luanda 00:52:51.569 --> 00:52:51.869 And 00:52:52.409 --> 00:52:54.599 Rupert Isaacson: what, what years are we talking there and 00:52:54.599 --> 00:52:55.859 how long did that go on for? 00:52:56.924 --> 00:52:59.234 Paul Illingworth: Well, I mean, my involvement was from 00:52:59.234 --> 00:53:04.154 1992 to 1996, primarily 1994. 00:53:04.484 --> 00:53:04.634 Okay. 00:53:04.694 --> 00:53:09.194 I think the Civil War went on, I think for almost 20 years, Rupert, to be called. 00:53:09.194 --> 00:53:10.059 Yeah, it did. 00:53:10.059 --> 00:53:10.184 It did. 00:53:10.184 --> 00:53:14.774 I remember I was in Angola a long, long, long time. 00:53:14.844 --> 00:53:15.414 Yeah, 30 years. 00:53:15.419 --> 00:53:15.789 There was a lot. 00:53:15.979 --> 00:53:16.269 Yeah. 00:53:16.374 --> 00:53:19.404 I think it was, there was a lot of very, very heavy fights around 00:53:19.404 --> 00:53:22.474 Orlando and Soya during the nineties. 00:53:22.474 --> 00:53:26.884 And, and most, you know, most of the rest of the, the problem was more in 00:53:26.884 --> 00:53:30.724 land, but when it got to the coast and it started to threaten the the oil and 00:53:30.724 --> 00:53:33.694 gas business that, you know, that's when the government realized that they 00:53:33.694 --> 00:53:35.434 really needed to do something about it. 00:53:36.164 --> 00:53:37.514 So it was during that period 00:53:37.934 --> 00:53:41.954 Rupert Isaacson: and you had been deployed within the British forces as well. 00:53:41.954 --> 00:53:42.044 Mm-hmm. 00:53:42.504 --> 00:53:44.514 I don't, I know you don't wanna go too much into it, but you had 00:53:44.514 --> 00:53:47.304 been, you, you had been deployed in the Falklands, correct. 00:53:47.304 --> 00:53:47.874 And then, yeah, that's 00:53:47.874 --> 00:53:48.174 Paul Illingworth: correct. 00:53:48.354 --> 00:53:48.684 Rupert Isaacson: Yeah. 00:53:49.134 --> 00:53:51.534 And that was Special forces, so you'd taken that. 00:53:52.504 --> 00:53:54.734 Experience over absolutely. 00:53:55.244 --> 00:53:55.634 Yes. 00:53:57.014 --> 00:53:59.204 You know, Angola's a scary place. 00:53:59.314 --> 00:54:00.454 Or at least it certainly was. 00:54:00.454 --> 00:54:05.454 I remember staring down a barrel of a child soldiers automatic 00:54:05.454 --> 00:54:09.034 that with a, with a comp compan. 00:54:09.034 --> 00:54:12.424 I was, I had a traveling companion who was a German girl who we didn't 00:54:12.424 --> 00:54:13.804 realize at the time was bipolar. 00:54:14.254 --> 00:54:17.914 And she later sent me, 10 years later, sent me an apology letter. 00:54:18.184 --> 00:54:20.524 She almost got me killed like two, three times. 00:54:20.674 --> 00:54:22.024 And it was just her and a friend. 00:54:22.024 --> 00:54:23.554 And we, there was nothing going on with us. 00:54:23.554 --> 00:54:24.994 We were just travelers. 00:54:24.994 --> 00:54:27.274 I was writing a guidebook actually and being a journalist, and I 00:54:27.454 --> 00:54:29.884 just wanted people from youth hostels to split costs with. 00:54:30.424 --> 00:54:33.844 And we ended up crossing the border into Angola briefly. 00:54:33.844 --> 00:54:37.074 And she got. 00:54:38.124 --> 00:54:39.774 Verbally aggressive with the wrong people. 00:54:40.074 --> 00:54:41.004 And I was like, what are you doing? 00:54:41.064 --> 00:54:41.844 You're gonna get us killed. 00:54:41.844 --> 00:54:42.624 You're gonna get us killed. 00:54:42.684 --> 00:54:44.514 You know, like, you really are gonna get us killed. 00:54:44.784 --> 00:54:45.924 You've got to stop. 00:54:46.554 --> 00:54:51.044 And you know how that thing is, you, you're looking down the 00:54:51.044 --> 00:54:54.404 barrel of, of somebody who's 15 pointing that gun at you. 00:54:55.604 --> 00:54:58.874 And you know that whatever decision they're making is not gonna be rational. 00:54:59.354 --> 00:55:00.854 Paul Illingworth: That's, that, that's, that's actually, 00:55:00.854 --> 00:55:02.654 you know, a, a good point. 00:55:02.654 --> 00:55:05.204 Something, something very, very similar happened to me. 00:55:05.204 --> 00:55:08.444 Funnily enough, not in Angola or Nigeria, it was actually Mozambique, 00:55:08.474 --> 00:55:10.274 but that was during the Civil War there. 00:55:10.454 --> 00:55:10.694 Yeah. 00:55:10.934 --> 00:55:13.754 That was also nice, you know, where, where they were are, I mean, a lot of 00:55:13.754 --> 00:55:17.114 the kids did have automatic weapons, and those were the ones that you 00:55:17.114 --> 00:55:19.274 really did have to be worried about. 00:55:19.334 --> 00:55:19.514 Yeah. 00:55:19.514 --> 00:55:20.624 There's no doubt about it. 00:55:20.624 --> 00:55:24.134 It, it, the regular soldiers, to a certain extent, weren't so bad 00:55:24.134 --> 00:55:26.984 the kids, the kids just really didn't know what they were doing. 00:55:27.074 --> 00:55:30.494 They had no training and, you know, they just saw, especially if you 00:55:30.494 --> 00:55:32.804 were being aggressive with them, you are lucky you didn't get shot. 00:55:33.134 --> 00:55:35.564 Rupert Isaacson: Yeah, well, I was, I did just a lot of apologizing, you 00:55:35.564 --> 00:55:39.169 know, and you know, you talk about having no fear, I had a lot of fear. 00:55:39.464 --> 00:55:43.634 I was catching myself, you know, because Yeah, yeah, yeah. 00:55:44.084 --> 00:55:50.214 But yeah, as you say, the, the, the way through is sometimes there, there are ways 00:55:50.214 --> 00:55:53.094 to stand up for yourself and sometimes it's actually to talk your way through. 00:55:53.664 --> 00:55:53.724 Yeah. 00:55:53.964 --> 00:55:57.114 And in that case it was to sort of appeal to somebody's 00:55:57.114 --> 00:55:59.304 sense of reason and humanity. 00:56:00.084 --> 00:56:00.474 Okay. 00:56:00.474 --> 00:56:02.124 So you're in the Merchant Navy. 00:56:02.124 --> 00:56:05.544 You are not a mercenary in Angola. 00:56:09.704 --> 00:56:11.834 At what point do you start aviating? 00:56:12.504 --> 00:56:14.334 I presume with jumping out of airplanes, that must have 00:56:14.334 --> 00:56:15.504 started with special forces. 00:56:15.654 --> 00:56:15.774 Paul Illingworth: Yeah. 00:56:16.804 --> 00:56:22.054 I, you know, I did do some helicopter flying when I was in in the military. 00:56:22.584 --> 00:56:27.314 Didn't get into it too seriously, but the aviating really just simply came 00:56:27.314 --> 00:56:32.114 about as a result of buying a skydiving business and inheriting an airplane. 00:56:32.204 --> 00:56:33.344 It came with an airplane. 00:56:33.344 --> 00:56:34.244 We had a pilot. 00:56:34.309 --> 00:56:34.599 Okay. 00:56:34.994 --> 00:56:36.294 And one of the things that I think. 00:56:37.094 --> 00:56:39.674 Jen and I realized pretty quickly, and we really knew 00:56:39.674 --> 00:56:41.234 this just from our experiences. 00:56:41.234 --> 00:56:41.529 Jen being your wife. 00:56:41.529 --> 00:56:41.729 Yeah. 00:56:41.864 --> 00:56:42.824 Jen being my wife. 00:56:42.824 --> 00:56:43.154 Yeah. 00:56:43.184 --> 00:56:47.654 Through our experience at other drop zones is if the pilot gets 00:56:47.654 --> 00:56:49.814 sick, you don't do any business. 00:56:50.264 --> 00:56:53.294 Most drop zones can't afford to hire more than one pilot. 00:56:53.294 --> 00:56:56.144 So if you, you know, literally if the pilot does get sick, if 00:56:56.144 --> 00:56:59.174 he gets a cold, he can't fly and then the business is shut down. 00:56:59.864 --> 00:57:04.704 So when we bought the business, we had a pilot that if you like, 00:57:04.704 --> 00:57:06.414 that was working for the business. 00:57:06.414 --> 00:57:10.614 He'd already, he told us fairly quickly he was looking to move into the airlines. 00:57:10.614 --> 00:57:14.424 'cause a lot of the times skydiving pilots use it to build hours, right. 00:57:14.424 --> 00:57:16.344 So they can then go and fly for the airlines. 00:57:16.344 --> 00:57:19.374 He told us that he was looking to go to the airline, so we 00:57:19.374 --> 00:57:20.604 needed to find another pilot. 00:57:21.759 --> 00:57:24.759 We found another pilot, luckily that stayed with us for almost 10 00:57:24.759 --> 00:57:30.279 years, but it did make us realize that while it's fairly easy to hire 00:57:30.279 --> 00:57:36.159 skydiving instructors, binding pilots is hard and keeping pilots is hard. 00:57:36.729 --> 00:57:40.509 So Jen and I decided to have flying lessons. 00:57:40.659 --> 00:57:42.069 We took flying lessons. 00:57:42.099 --> 00:57:43.689 We started in 2005. 00:57:43.689 --> 00:57:47.409 We both got our private pilot's license within about a year, nine months I 00:57:47.409 --> 00:57:51.009 think it was, brought ourselves a little sesor airplane because we were 00:57:51.009 --> 00:57:55.509 living in Houston and the business we owned was a two hour drive away, but 00:57:55.509 --> 00:57:56.979 it was only a half an hour flight. 00:57:56.979 --> 00:57:59.739 So we brought little airplane and then we could fly out there 00:58:00.349 --> 00:58:02.119 for the weekends with the kids. 00:58:02.239 --> 00:58:03.679 My kids were growing up at the time. 00:58:05.044 --> 00:58:09.994 I decided that rather than just stop at private pilot's license, I'd get my 00:58:09.994 --> 00:58:14.374 instrument rating, I'd get my multi-engine rating, I'd get my commercial. 00:58:14.764 --> 00:58:19.564 So basically I had all of the different ratings that I'd need to fly any of 00:58:19.564 --> 00:58:23.074 the airplanes we were ever likely to use in the skydiving business. 00:58:23.074 --> 00:58:27.724 And I went through all of those over the next year or so, got all those ratings. 00:58:28.294 --> 00:58:31.024 And then as soon as I is, it used be 00:58:31.024 --> 00:58:31.294 Rupert Isaacson: so quick. 00:58:31.299 --> 00:58:32.794 Doesn't it take longer normally to get 00:58:32.794 --> 00:58:37.234 Paul Illingworth: No, I was, I was flying almost every day having lessons. 00:58:37.354 --> 00:58:37.684 Okay. 00:58:37.744 --> 00:58:41.014 You know, because, because we were running a business and it was 00:58:41.014 --> 00:58:44.254 important that I got the ratings, the cost of, I mean, it's, it's. 00:58:45.064 --> 00:58:48.244 Cost prohibitive for most people as well to do all of that because 00:58:48.244 --> 00:58:49.474 of the cost of the instruction. 00:58:49.954 --> 00:58:50.044 Mm-hmm. 00:58:50.044 --> 00:58:53.674 But I was fortunate in that the business was able to help with the cost. 00:58:53.974 --> 00:58:54.184 Mm-hmm. 00:58:54.284 --> 00:58:58.184 And I literally, I would go and have a fly lesson at seven o'clock in the morning, 00:58:58.184 --> 00:59:00.194 finish at nine o'clock, go to the office. 00:59:00.614 --> 00:59:00.854 Right. 00:59:00.914 --> 00:59:03.134 Work in the office till seven, eight o'clock at night. 00:59:03.134 --> 00:59:05.444 Come home, go repeat the same, the same thing. 00:59:05.744 --> 00:59:09.914 It's, and then, like I said, weekends, we'd be going out to a skydiving business. 00:59:09.914 --> 00:59:14.024 So it's really, it was, you know, it was seven days a week working 00:59:14.054 --> 00:59:15.854 and very, very long hours as well. 00:59:16.154 --> 00:59:17.534 That's how we got into flying. 00:59:17.564 --> 00:59:20.144 That's how both Jen and I got, got into flying. 00:59:20.624 --> 00:59:21.914 We still fly today. 00:59:21.914 --> 00:59:25.194 You know, we still, we, we still own a little airplane that we fly. 00:59:25.194 --> 00:59:28.374 Even though we sold the skydiving business a number of years ago. 00:59:29.064 --> 00:59:31.554 We owned a small jet for a period of time. 00:59:31.554 --> 00:59:32.814 I mean, you've flown with us. 00:59:32.814 --> 00:59:33.294 Well, I have. 00:59:33.294 --> 00:59:33.834 It's my only. 00:59:34.204 --> 00:59:34.324 You know, 00:59:34.754 --> 00:59:37.814 Rupert Isaacson: experience of flying a private jet, I'm very, very, very great. 00:59:37.814 --> 00:59:37.874 Yeah. 00:59:39.164 --> 00:59:39.404 Paul Illingworth: Yeah. 00:59:39.404 --> 00:59:42.874 We've done, you know, we've done a, a lot of stuff and I mean, as I get older 00:59:42.874 --> 00:59:47.974 now, we, you know, I'm almost 70 now, we sold the jet because once you hit 70, 00:59:47.974 --> 00:59:53.024 it's pretty difficult to get insurance to fly small pri, you know, private jets. 00:59:53.024 --> 00:59:55.904 So we, we are just scaling things down, but that's how, that's how 00:59:55.904 --> 00:59:58.094 we got into the aviation side. 00:59:58.094 --> 00:59:59.174 And I must say I love it. 01:00:00.059 --> 01:00:02.234 I, I always wanted to join the Royal Air Force. 01:00:02.234 --> 01:00:07.664 I think I said that very, very early on because I had, I'd never flown 01:00:07.664 --> 01:00:10.784 at the time, but I just thought it looked like a lot of fun to do. 01:00:10.784 --> 01:00:10.844 Yeah. 01:00:10.874 --> 01:00:13.364 And it is a lot of fun and I really, really enjoy it. 01:00:13.364 --> 01:00:18.884 So it's, you know, it's one of the things I think that probably motorcycling and, 01:00:18.884 --> 01:00:23.054 and flying, I still get the most enjoyment out of, of pretty much everything we do. 01:00:23.114 --> 01:00:24.704 We still enjoy jumping as well. 01:00:24.704 --> 01:00:27.644 Just don't jump as much as, as, as we could do. 01:00:29.519 --> 01:00:29.739 Rupert Isaacson: So. 01:00:31.969 --> 01:00:36.259 Then you, you go from the Merchant Navy into the oil and gas business and you 01:00:36.319 --> 01:00:36.679 Paul Illingworth: Yeah, 01:00:36.859 --> 01:00:38.029 Rupert Isaacson: you, you do Well. 01:00:38.509 --> 01:00:40.549 Paul Illingworth: And so let, let's just, let's talk about that. 01:00:40.579 --> 01:00:41.149 Okay? 01:00:41.149 --> 01:00:41.159 Yeah. 01:00:41.209 --> 01:00:41.479 Yeah. 01:00:41.479 --> 01:00:42.139 The same thing. 01:00:42.139 --> 01:00:43.459 It's the same thing again. 01:00:43.639 --> 01:00:50.479 I wanted, I wanted to, I wanted basically to get to a point where 01:00:50.479 --> 01:00:51.889 I was caption in my own ship. 01:00:51.919 --> 01:00:53.269 That was my target. 01:00:53.989 --> 01:00:57.739 And when I went in the Navy, I can remember way, way 01:00:57.739 --> 01:00:59.119 before I joined the Navy. 01:00:59.539 --> 01:01:01.879 There was a guy that was playing at my rugby club. 01:01:01.879 --> 01:01:04.609 I was probably 14 years old, 14 or 15. 01:01:04.609 --> 01:01:09.229 He was a captain in the Merchant Navy, and he was earning, and I 01:01:09.229 --> 01:01:11.119 remember this like it was yesterday. 01:01:11.119 --> 01:01:13.309 He was earning 5,000 pounds a year. 01:01:13.339 --> 01:01:14.719 That was a hundred pounds a week. 01:01:14.719 --> 01:01:17.149 That was a huge amount of money. 01:01:17.269 --> 01:01:17.809 I was earning 10. 01:01:17.809 --> 01:01:19.189 What year was that? 01:01:19.189 --> 01:01:19.519 Would that have been 70? 01:01:19.519 --> 01:01:22.469 That, that, that would've been in let me think. 01:01:22.469 --> 01:01:23.579 60. 01:01:24.659 --> 01:01:26.129 69 70. 01:01:26.309 --> 01:01:26.669 Oh yeah. 01:01:26.669 --> 01:01:26.969 That would've 01:01:26.969 --> 01:01:27.629 Rupert Isaacson: been a lot of money. 01:01:27.719 --> 01:01:28.709 Paul Illingworth: Yeah, it was a lot of money. 01:01:28.859 --> 01:01:28.919 Yeah. 01:01:28.919 --> 01:01:31.859 I was earning 10 shillings a week till in newspapers. 01:01:31.859 --> 01:01:33.989 He was earning a hundred pounds a week as a captain. 01:01:33.989 --> 01:01:37.769 So ultimately my target was to get to be captain. 01:01:37.799 --> 01:01:40.289 'cause I thought, well, you know, I've not had any money growing up, but 01:01:40.289 --> 01:01:43.829 I'll be doing fairly well because he, you know, he drove a nice sports car. 01:01:43.829 --> 01:01:46.829 I think he had a knee type jag and, you know, and he seemed 01:01:46.829 --> 01:01:48.119 to live very comfortably. 01:01:48.119 --> 01:01:50.939 So that was always really my target was to become a captain. 01:01:50.939 --> 01:01:51.029 Mm-hmm. 01:01:51.659 --> 01:01:57.929 Once I transitioned into a merchant Navy, 1984, I got, I went 01:01:57.929 --> 01:02:02.009 to college for six months and I passed my captain's license test. 01:02:02.429 --> 01:02:07.499 So from 1984, I had a license to captain any ship of any 01:02:07.499 --> 01:02:09.029 size, anywhere in the world. 01:02:09.779 --> 01:02:13.139 And at the time the company that I was working for, which was an 01:02:13.139 --> 01:02:17.009 American offshore company, were desperately short of captains. 01:02:17.439 --> 01:02:21.219 And I got an opportunity to move from first officer to captain, 01:02:21.219 --> 01:02:23.199 working on the old Vig supply boats. 01:02:23.769 --> 01:02:27.549 So I took that opportunity and then I ended up moving from 01:02:27.549 --> 01:02:29.259 West Africa into the North Sea. 01:02:29.259 --> 01:02:32.619 So I was captain of supply boats working the North Sea and some of 01:02:32.619 --> 01:02:36.819 the most horrendous weather you'll ever I can imagine, possibly imagine. 01:02:37.509 --> 01:02:40.939 And I did that until about 1990. 01:02:41.659 --> 01:02:45.019 But in the interim period of time with a couple of other guys in 01:02:45.019 --> 01:02:50.629 Aberdeen I end and we started our own company, a marine consultancy company. 01:02:51.179 --> 01:02:55.449 And what we were doing was we were providing tow masters to move 01:02:55.449 --> 01:02:57.159 oil rigs around the North Sea. 01:02:57.849 --> 01:02:59.709 So I moved from being captain of a. 01:03:00.579 --> 01:03:04.419 I worked as captain on the oil rigs in the Middle East for a couple of years. 01:03:04.839 --> 01:03:09.039 Then I went back to the North Sea working for my own company with 01:03:09.039 --> 01:03:10.809 these, with these two other gentlemen. 01:03:11.229 --> 01:03:14.919 And we set the company up and we, we very, we've become very, very 01:03:14.919 --> 01:03:19.689 successful at renting our services out to move oil rigs around to the 01:03:19.689 --> 01:03:23.949 point where we ended up having to start hiring people to work for us. 01:03:24.369 --> 01:03:26.139 So then the company started to grow. 01:03:27.349 --> 01:03:31.789 I think the last, the last job I did when I was actually working on, on the 01:03:31.789 --> 01:03:36.199 oil rig, the big tugs, because I was moving oil rigs around as a, as a tow 01:03:36.199 --> 01:03:38.629 master at the time was probably 1990. 01:03:39.379 --> 01:03:44.109 And then there was an opportunity shortly thereafter to go and work 01:03:44.109 --> 01:03:48.339 for a small Canadian oil company as a marine superintendent. 01:03:48.339 --> 01:03:53.139 So, and this was in Aberdeen, so I'm still working, I'm managing director of my own. 01:03:54.474 --> 01:03:58.524 Consultancy company, they needed a marine superintendent. 01:03:58.524 --> 01:04:04.164 So we literally contracted my services to this small Canadian 01:04:04.164 --> 01:04:06.864 company as a marine superintendent. 01:04:07.494 --> 01:04:12.274 And that's how I ended up, I did some work in the North Sea installing platforms in 01:04:12.274 --> 01:04:14.644 the North Sea oil rig platforms for them. 01:04:15.274 --> 01:04:18.184 And they also had a license in Angola. 01:04:18.184 --> 01:04:22.864 And that's how I ended up in Angola, working for them down in Angola, meeting 01:04:22.864 --> 01:04:27.004 the, the government officials from Sonal and doing and doing that sort of stuff. 01:04:27.724 --> 01:04:37.084 So I ran that company as managing director for 13 years until 1998 when I ended up. 01:04:37.804 --> 01:04:43.444 As a result of meeting some guys, funnily enough in Angola getting an opportunity 01:04:43.444 --> 01:04:47.554 to come to Houston and I'd been in Aberdeen for eight years at that time. 01:04:47.704 --> 01:04:50.524 I wanted to take the company International. 01:04:50.584 --> 01:04:53.314 My two partners did not want to go international. 01:04:53.314 --> 01:04:56.494 They wanted to stay in the uk So we started to come to a 01:04:56.494 --> 01:04:58.264 point where we were gonna split. 01:04:59.054 --> 01:05:03.764 The opportunity came up for me to go to Houston, so I ended up going to 01:05:03.764 --> 01:05:08.774 Houston as a consultant working for this Singaporean based company to set up the 01:05:08.774 --> 01:05:10.514 business development office for them. 01:05:11.114 --> 01:05:16.154 And that was really an opportunity for me to just simply say, okay, I like it here. 01:05:16.154 --> 01:05:17.114 I'm gonna stay here. 01:05:17.114 --> 01:05:21.824 They're gonna pay me, well, I'll leave the UK consultancy company. 01:05:22.184 --> 01:05:26.414 I'll just step back, keep my shares in the company, but not have anything 01:05:26.414 --> 01:05:27.764 to do with the day-to-day running. 01:05:27.794 --> 01:05:29.504 That's how I ended up in the us 01:05:29.894 --> 01:05:30.344 Rupert Isaacson: Right. 01:05:31.094 --> 01:05:31.724 Paul Illingworth: So. 01:05:32.309 --> 01:05:34.479 Rupert Isaacson: You're talking about moving all platforms 01:05:34.479 --> 01:05:39.759 around and as if that's an easy thing to do in the North Sea. 01:05:40.209 --> 01:05:40.479 Paul Illingworth: Yeah. 01:05:40.659 --> 01:05:43.239 Rupert Isaacson: As you said, I've seen, I've seen what the weather can be. 01:05:43.479 --> 01:05:44.799 You talk about not being afraid. 01:05:44.799 --> 01:05:49.239 You must have been afraid sometimes in those storms that the ship might go down. 01:05:49.839 --> 01:05:50.469 Not 01:05:51.249 --> 01:05:55.029 Paul Illingworth: I was, I, there, there's a, there was a couple of 01:05:55.029 --> 01:05:58.089 opportunities where I never thought I'd ever see weather worse than that. 01:05:58.089 --> 01:05:59.769 And then there was weather worse than that. 01:06:00.219 --> 01:06:02.109 I was never bothered about a ship going down. 01:06:02.469 --> 01:06:06.129 And one of the things I should probably point out is that, remember 01:06:06.129 --> 01:06:09.009 I told you I had an older cousin who was 12 years older than me. 01:06:09.369 --> 01:06:13.719 I also had another cousin that was four years older than me, Neil, 01:06:14.109 --> 01:06:17.799 he was actually on an offshore supply boat that did go down in the 01:06:17.799 --> 01:06:19.929 Mediterranean and he was lost at sea. 01:06:20.499 --> 01:06:20.529 Mm. 01:06:20.529 --> 01:06:22.779 The ship, the ship just disappeared. 01:06:23.079 --> 01:06:23.439 Wow. 01:06:23.859 --> 01:06:25.179 And that was in the Mediterranean. 01:06:25.299 --> 01:06:25.689 Rupert Isaacson: Wow. 01:06:25.749 --> 01:06:27.879 You don't expect to see that kind of weather. 01:06:27.939 --> 01:06:30.309 Paul Illingworth: And, and I'd been in the Navy, I think 01:06:30.309 --> 01:06:31.689 two years when that happened. 01:06:31.809 --> 01:06:37.839 And, you know, it, it was, it, it really brought it home with the vulnerability. 01:06:37.839 --> 01:06:41.409 Now, when I was on my own ship as captain working in the North Sea, we 01:06:41.409 --> 01:06:43.029 went out in some horrendous weather. 01:06:43.029 --> 01:06:45.939 There was, I remember there was one Christmas where the 01:06:45.939 --> 01:06:47.829 storms were really, really bad. 01:06:48.009 --> 01:06:52.539 And I was, I was flown out by helicopter to a rig, which had broken a couple of his 01:06:52.539 --> 01:06:59.529 moorings to try to be able to to get some, some tugs attached to the rig so we could 01:06:59.529 --> 01:07:03.519 actually pull it away from the platform that it was gonna end up drifting towards. 01:07:04.069 --> 01:07:06.439 That was some of the worst weather that I ever saw when I 01:07:06.439 --> 01:07:08.119 was captain on a ship myself. 01:07:08.119 --> 01:07:10.999 We went out in Force 10 a couple of times from Aberdeen. 01:07:11.629 --> 01:07:14.929 I was never bothered about the ship going down. 01:07:15.039 --> 01:07:15.879 Could it have happened? 01:07:15.879 --> 01:07:16.269 Yes. 01:07:16.269 --> 01:07:21.849 But I think, I guess that I felt that my superior seamanship skills were 01:07:21.849 --> 01:07:25.059 able to deal with anything that the weather threw out us at the time. 01:07:25.219 --> 01:07:27.469 And again, I think I was, I was very, very lucky. 01:07:27.529 --> 01:07:29.509 We never got into a serious situation. 01:07:30.239 --> 01:07:33.239 But I mean, I, that there was a lot of really, really nasty 01:07:33.239 --> 01:07:34.319 things happened out there. 01:07:34.799 --> 01:07:39.839 I'll tell you what, you know, one time I was a bit twitchy, I was, one 01:07:39.839 --> 01:07:43.589 of the things that I had to do was move jack up rigs alongside platforms. 01:07:44.089 --> 01:07:46.759 And when you're moving a jack up rig alongside a platform, and Jack 01:07:46.759 --> 01:07:48.259 up rig basically is an oil rig. 01:07:48.259 --> 01:07:52.339 They work in relatively shallow water up to about 150, two a hundred feet. 01:07:52.369 --> 01:07:55.219 They go deeper now, but in those days, 152 feet. 01:07:55.909 --> 01:08:00.259 And it's like, it's, it's a, it's a triangular shaped rig that has three legs. 01:08:00.649 --> 01:08:05.179 It floats with the legs jacked up, and then you put it to 01:08:05.179 --> 01:08:06.289 wherever you want it to go. 01:08:06.289 --> 01:08:08.209 And there's normally three tugs attached. 01:08:08.209 --> 01:08:09.619 One at one at each corner. 01:08:09.619 --> 01:08:13.759 'cause it's a triangle and you move it where you want to go with the tugs. 01:08:13.759 --> 01:08:15.289 And then you lower the legs down. 01:08:15.289 --> 01:08:19.579 The legs, hit the sea bed, and they raise the rig up off, off the sea. 01:08:19.579 --> 01:08:20.659 It literally comes up. 01:08:20.899 --> 01:08:23.389 So you have a gap between the sea and the bottom of the rig. 01:08:23.389 --> 01:08:24.319 It's called the air gap. 01:08:25.069 --> 01:08:28.309 Now, one of the things we had to do in the southern part of the North 01:08:28.309 --> 01:08:33.349 Sea was to actually move these jack up rigs alongside a fixed platform. 01:08:34.129 --> 01:08:38.029 So now you've got something that is attached to the seabed that 01:08:38.029 --> 01:08:41.989 has accommodation on top and it's got wells going through it. 01:08:41.989 --> 01:08:46.039 And the jack up rig has to go right up close to that. 01:08:46.279 --> 01:08:47.449 You jack it up. 01:08:48.049 --> 01:08:52.159 It has a drilling deck that then can levers over the top of the 01:08:52.159 --> 01:08:55.219 platform so they can get the drilling equipment down the well. 01:08:56.389 --> 01:08:58.279 You have to move those rigs. 01:08:59.509 --> 01:09:04.279 Four to six feet away from the legs of the fixed platform. 01:09:05.299 --> 01:09:11.149 So the accuracy, the way that we do this is a combination of using anchors 01:09:11.149 --> 01:09:16.699 and tugs, but you are literally moving the rig six inches at a time. 01:09:17.179 --> 01:09:23.239 So I'm giving instructions to one of the tugs to pull six inches in on a toe line. 01:09:23.239 --> 01:09:25.489 Another one, pull six inches in here. 01:09:26.449 --> 01:09:30.469 That is the most, I won't say it's scary, it's nerve wracking 01:09:31.249 --> 01:09:33.469 because there's no room for error. 01:09:34.234 --> 01:09:35.164 Absolutely no. 01:09:35.464 --> 01:09:38.434 And the way that we used to tell if we were in the right place is quite funny. 01:09:38.974 --> 01:09:41.974 We have what we called surveyors on board, and the surveyors 01:09:41.974 --> 01:09:43.684 were technical guys, okay? 01:09:44.074 --> 01:09:47.024 We didn't have sat nav or anything like that. 01:09:47.684 --> 01:09:51.524 So in order to tell whether or not we were in the right place on the platform, 01:09:51.554 --> 01:09:54.884 'cause you had to get in exactly the right place, we'd get two aluminum 01:09:54.884 --> 01:09:59.714 ladders, stick them out the back of the rig with a scaffolding pole going 01:09:59.714 --> 01:10:01.604 across and a couple of paint marks. 01:10:02.054 --> 01:10:07.304 And when that scaffolding po and the paint marks touched the legs of the platform, 01:10:07.304 --> 01:10:08.774 we knew we were in the right place. 01:10:10.159 --> 01:10:11.379 That's how technical, 01:10:11.479 --> 01:10:14.294 Rupert Isaacson: that's that technical and what would happen if you got it wrong. 01:10:15.189 --> 01:10:17.889 Paul Illingworth: You'd end up hitting the rig would hit the platform 01:10:18.339 --> 01:10:20.559 and that was really, really bad. 01:10:20.619 --> 01:10:24.309 Because, because, because if you have make contact with a platform 01:10:24.309 --> 01:10:25.749 or the rig, you can't do anything. 01:10:25.749 --> 01:10:26.829 You have to pull away. 01:10:27.099 --> 01:10:31.749 You then have to, to fly a surveyor out to survey the rig to make 01:10:31.749 --> 01:10:33.219 sure it doesn't have any damage. 01:10:33.699 --> 01:10:37.989 You have to get divers to do NDT on the platform to make sure you haven't damaged 01:10:37.989 --> 01:10:39.759 the integrity of the, of the platform. 01:10:39.759 --> 01:10:43.239 'cause even if you say, oh, we just kissed it, we just touched it. 01:10:43.239 --> 01:10:43.869 Doesn't matter. 01:10:44.319 --> 01:10:45.249 Game is off. 01:10:45.429 --> 01:10:46.779 Rig gets pulled away. 01:10:46.989 --> 01:10:52.239 Oil company that you're working for get really angry because you've now 01:10:52.239 --> 01:10:55.389 got a rig that's costing them a hundred thousand dollars a day and it's not 01:10:55.389 --> 01:10:57.459 doing anything because you've screwed up. 01:10:59.499 --> 01:10:59.859 Rupert Isaacson: Okay. 01:10:59.859 --> 01:11:01.089 And you're doing this in rough weather. 01:11:01.599 --> 01:11:01.929 Paul Illingworth: Yeah. 01:11:02.229 --> 01:11:02.559 Yeah. 01:11:02.859 --> 01:11:03.129 Rupert Isaacson: Rough 01:11:03.129 --> 01:11:03.459 Paul Illingworth: weather. 01:11:03.459 --> 01:11:03.969 Rupert Isaacson: How, how'd you do it? 01:11:03.969 --> 01:11:04.509 How'd you do it? 01:11:04.509 --> 01:11:06.819 How'd you get that level of accuracy in rough weather when the 01:11:06.999 --> 01:11:08.409 waves are just tossing you about? 01:11:08.619 --> 01:11:08.999 Paul Illingworth: Well, I mean. 01:11:09.759 --> 01:11:13.209 In the Southern North Sea, the current is a, is a major issue as well. 01:11:13.209 --> 01:11:17.229 So you have to wait for what they call slack water, which occurs every six hours. 01:11:17.979 --> 01:11:21.849 And then there is a, there is a point with the weather where you 01:11:21.849 --> 01:11:23.319 just say, no, we can't do it. 01:11:23.679 --> 01:11:23.979 Okay. 01:11:24.159 --> 01:11:28.269 But, you know, so there's a maximum wave height because obviously if you are 01:11:28.269 --> 01:11:31.539 moving up and down and you're surging back and forward, you gotta be really, 01:11:31.539 --> 01:11:33.039 really careful with what you're doing. 01:11:33.529 --> 01:11:36.019 So you do get to the point where if the weather's really 01:11:36.019 --> 01:11:37.279 bad, you just have to stop. 01:11:37.789 --> 01:11:38.059 Okay. 01:11:38.359 --> 01:11:40.999 And it's the same in the Northern North Sea when you're moving 01:11:40.999 --> 01:11:44.359 the semi-submersible rigs around that float and have anchors. 01:11:44.659 --> 01:11:47.869 You get to the point where when the weather, the waves get beyond 01:11:47.869 --> 01:11:52.129 a certain height, you just have to stop, hold position and wait for 01:11:52.129 --> 01:11:53.899 the weather to, to calm down a bit. 01:11:54.499 --> 01:11:54.859 Rupert Isaacson: Okay. 01:11:55.309 --> 01:11:58.969 So yeah, went back to the subject of fear and you said, you know, it's nerve 01:11:58.969 --> 01:12:01.699 wracking that, that that's another whole. 01:12:02.479 --> 01:12:06.109 Thing with fear is that, well, there's fear for your own personal 01:12:06.109 --> 01:12:07.729 safety, but then there's also fear. 01:12:07.999 --> 01:12:08.929 Paul Illingworth: Fear of damage. 01:12:09.139 --> 01:12:11.599 Rupert Isaacson: Well, and fear of effing up. 01:12:11.604 --> 01:12:12.014 Screwing up. 01:12:12.124 --> 01:12:12.414 Yeah. 01:12:12.534 --> 01:12:13.254 Screwing up. 01:12:13.254 --> 01:12:13.264 Yeah. 01:12:13.819 --> 01:12:16.669 When it comes down to is responsibility, like these types 01:12:16.669 --> 01:12:19.129 of job that you're talking about, they're ver they're very difficult. 01:12:19.909 --> 01:12:22.609 And you've got to manage these natural conditions. 01:12:22.609 --> 01:12:27.019 You've got to manage groups of people who are, you know, doing 01:12:27.019 --> 01:12:29.959 this stuff, and that there's gonna naturally be human error in there, 01:12:30.469 --> 01:12:32.359 not to mention the weather, you know? 01:12:33.289 --> 01:12:39.499 So do you think that, you know, that's a lot of pressure to handle. 01:12:40.069 --> 01:12:40.279 Paul Illingworth: Mm-hmm. 01:12:42.319 --> 01:12:45.619 Rupert Isaacson: Do you think that it really, if you, if you look at where were 01:12:45.619 --> 01:12:51.469 the skills that you built to be able to handle that sort of pressure that you 01:12:51.469 --> 01:12:53.299 built them sort of in the paper rounds. 01:12:53.359 --> 01:12:53.989 Age 10. 01:12:53.989 --> 01:12:54.079 Yes. 01:12:55.399 --> 01:12:56.104 Is that, is that where it all began? 01:12:57.814 --> 01:12:58.984 Paul Illingworth: Standing up for yourself. 01:12:58.984 --> 01:13:02.974 And, and I mean, it's really just, if you're gonna take on a job that has 01:13:02.974 --> 01:13:07.594 that sort of level of responsibility, you have got to have a huge 01:13:07.594 --> 01:13:09.214 amount of confidence in yourself. 01:13:09.544 --> 01:13:10.024 Mm-hmm. 01:13:10.234 --> 01:13:16.234 And you know, a as I said, one of the things that we were doing was we were 01:13:16.234 --> 01:13:18.934 hiring people to work as tow masters. 01:13:18.994 --> 01:13:21.214 Well, you don't just pull these guys off the street. 01:13:22.354 --> 01:13:22.414 No. 01:13:22.414 --> 01:13:24.034 They have got to be trained. 01:13:24.844 --> 01:13:30.214 So, every single one of the people that we hired was a cer, a qualified captain. 01:13:30.214 --> 01:13:31.864 They all had captains licenses. 01:13:31.864 --> 01:13:35.884 They thought most of them had worked as captain on supply boats or on big tugs. 01:13:35.884 --> 01:13:39.604 They knew what moving all rigs around was all about, but 01:13:39.604 --> 01:13:41.014 you still had to train them. 01:13:41.644 --> 01:13:46.474 So if you like, because I had my own company, I became a 01:13:46.474 --> 01:13:48.814 tow master instructor per se. 01:13:49.414 --> 01:13:49.834 And. 01:13:50.689 --> 01:13:54.739 In order to be able to do, to do that type of job with a very, very high 01:13:54.739 --> 01:13:57.349 level of responsibility, we're, you know, we're talking about hundreds 01:13:57.349 --> 01:14:01.249 and hundreds of thousands of dollars worth of equipment and potential 01:14:01.249 --> 01:14:04.279 damage, not necessarily lives at stake. 01:14:04.309 --> 01:14:09.229 Because, because it, it wasn't that type of a job, but you've gotta have a lot of 01:14:09.229 --> 01:14:14.329 confidence in yourself and you've gotta not be afraid of what you're doing in 01:14:14.329 --> 01:14:16.009 order to be able to do it successfully. 01:14:16.009 --> 01:14:16.099 Right? 01:14:16.129 --> 01:14:22.429 And in all, you've also gotta have the patience and the communication 01:14:22.429 --> 01:14:26.219 skills to be able to pass that onto somebody when you're training them. 01:14:27.154 --> 01:14:32.434 That the self-confidence definitely came, it started. 01:14:33.439 --> 01:14:39.049 With me having to go out at five o'clock in the morning in the UK in the winter 01:14:39.049 --> 01:14:44.119 when it was dark on my bicycle and go and deliver newspapers, and I was delivering 01:14:44.119 --> 01:14:46.939 newspapers in the snow and in the rain. 01:14:47.299 --> 01:14:47.599 Mm-hmm. 01:14:47.959 --> 01:14:52.879 And actually not having that was probably the most fearful thing. 01:14:52.939 --> 01:14:56.629 You know, as a, a 10-year-old actually going out in the dark on a bicycle and 01:14:56.629 --> 01:14:59.629 having to go onto a house in estate and walk up people's drives with 01:14:59.629 --> 01:15:01.609 dogs barking and deliver newspapers. 01:15:01.939 --> 01:15:02.239 Hmm. 01:15:02.359 --> 01:15:07.279 And it, it built up a certain amount of self-confidence, almost to the 01:15:07.279 --> 01:15:09.469 point where you think, screw this. 01:15:09.469 --> 01:15:12.589 You know, I mean, I can do this, I can do pretty much anything. 01:15:12.679 --> 01:15:18.589 And one of the things I will say to you is I've never been, 01:15:21.559 --> 01:15:22.459 how can I put this? 01:15:22.729 --> 01:15:25.339 There hasn't been a situation where somebody's asked me if I could 01:15:25.339 --> 01:15:28.519 do something where I've said, no. 01:15:30.709 --> 01:15:32.929 I might have said, I have to think about it. 01:15:33.259 --> 01:15:34.369 And I've done that a lot. 01:15:34.819 --> 01:15:38.599 But in most cases, if somebody's asked me to do something, if I 01:15:38.599 --> 01:15:42.049 haven't got the skills to do it, I can figure out how to do it. 01:15:42.079 --> 01:15:43.729 'cause I'm very good at figuring things out. 01:15:44.599 --> 01:15:48.739 But if it's just something that's completely off, off the wall, then I 01:15:48.739 --> 01:15:50.899 would simply say, I'll think about it. 01:15:51.169 --> 01:15:55.129 Which just really means no, I probably won't do it, but I'm gonna think about it. 01:15:55.369 --> 01:16:00.019 'cause I like to be able to process things and, and that really does, it does 01:16:00.019 --> 01:16:02.149 come down, there's no doubt about it. 01:16:03.559 --> 01:16:07.219 Having that paper round and having to go out to work at such an early age 01:16:07.249 --> 01:16:09.379 was, it was a great character builder. 01:16:09.529 --> 01:16:10.819 There's no doubt about that. 01:16:11.119 --> 01:16:12.079 And I did that. 01:16:12.499 --> 01:16:14.599 I did that every day for six years. 01:16:14.869 --> 01:16:19.309 I stopped my paper around the day I left the UK to join the Navy. 01:16:20.419 --> 01:16:22.399 Rupert Isaacson: As you may know, if you've been following my work, 01:16:22.429 --> 01:16:24.829 we are also horsey folk here. 01:16:25.334 --> 01:16:29.824 And we have been training horses for many, many years in the manner of 01:16:29.874 --> 01:16:33.034 the old classical dressage masters. 01:16:33.464 --> 01:16:36.254 This is something which is often very confusing for people. 01:16:36.644 --> 01:16:41.644 We shine a light on that murky, difficult stuff and make it crystal clear. 01:16:41.904 --> 01:16:46.734 If you'd like to learn to train your horse in the manner of the old masters and 01:16:46.734 --> 01:16:52.534 really have fun and joy for you and your equine, go to our website, heliosharmony. 01:16:52.534 --> 01:16:54.864 com Sign up as a premium member. 01:16:55.184 --> 01:16:59.194 and begin to take the Helios Harmony course, which will take you from zero 01:16:59.664 --> 01:17:04.794 to the Piaf, where the horse is dancing on the spot in hand on the ground. 01:17:05.384 --> 01:17:09.094 And then from there, you can develop out to anywhere you want to. 01:17:10.054 --> 01:17:10.794 Heliosharmony. 01:17:11.304 --> 01:17:14.974 com to unlock the secrets of the old masters. 01:17:15.379 --> 01:17:15.769 Wow. 01:17:16.399 --> 01:17:19.784 I'm also thinking about, the, you, you talked about communication 01:17:19.784 --> 01:17:24.254 skills, and that's important too, because it's not enough to be 01:17:25.034 --> 01:17:26.744 big and tough or even competent. 01:17:27.104 --> 01:17:27.164 Paul Illingworth: No. 01:17:27.164 --> 01:17:27.374 If you're 01:17:27.374 --> 01:17:30.884 Rupert Isaacson: going to manage teams, you can't be going around scaring 01:17:31.124 --> 01:17:35.144 your team because then you, there's no job getting rather the opposite. 01:17:35.144 --> 01:17:37.664 They've got to feel that the big scary guy has their back. 01:17:38.234 --> 01:17:42.794 Do you feel, do you think that the do you think that the communication skills came 01:17:42.794 --> 01:17:44.324 with having to build that rugby team? 01:17:44.864 --> 01:17:45.044 Paul Illingworth: Yes. 01:17:46.559 --> 01:17:51.899 Absolutely, because I didn't, I didn't get, learn any communication skills from 01:17:51.899 --> 01:17:53.879 being at home with Doesn't sound like 01:17:54.094 --> 01:17:54.214 Rupert Isaacson: it. 01:17:54.514 --> 01:17:56.534 No, I mean, I, although your mom sounds very warm. 01:17:56.634 --> 01:17:58.049 My, my mom sounds, my mom was 01:17:58.049 --> 01:17:58.979 Paul Illingworth: really, really great. 01:17:58.979 --> 01:18:03.239 She was, she was a, a great help to me, but we weren't the sort of family 01:18:03.239 --> 01:18:07.649 that we sat around in the evening, if you like, drinking tea and chatting 01:18:07.649 --> 01:18:09.059 about what we did during the day. 01:18:09.059 --> 01:18:09.119 Yeah. 01:18:09.209 --> 01:18:10.679 That just, that didn't happen. 01:18:10.709 --> 01:18:15.719 It was, it was being at school, playing rugby with the team, with the lads. 01:18:15.719 --> 01:18:18.869 They were, you know, they were the closest group that we had 01:18:18.869 --> 01:18:21.119 as any sports team really. 01:18:21.509 --> 01:18:24.059 And then taking those communication skills. 01:18:24.119 --> 01:18:30.119 I mean, I was, I was assessed very, very early on after I joined the 01:18:30.119 --> 01:18:33.179 Navy as having natural leadership. 01:18:33.629 --> 01:18:38.729 Qualities because I was able to, to guide people and I, and I was 01:18:38.729 --> 01:18:40.409 able to communicate with people. 01:18:40.949 --> 01:18:45.449 So I was actually given the opportunity to accelerate through the whole Navy 01:18:45.629 --> 01:18:49.379 process very, very quickly because I had that ability to be able to talk 01:18:49.379 --> 01:18:53.669 to people, to be able to communicate and be able to get over what I 01:18:53.669 --> 01:18:55.589 was trying to communicate quickly. 01:18:56.129 --> 01:18:56.369 Right. 01:18:56.479 --> 01:18:59.839 Rupert Isaacson: So let's dive back to where we began. 01:18:59.899 --> 01:19:05.239 We have this epidemic of young men who can't get out of the basement, 01:19:05.509 --> 01:19:05.929 Paul Illingworth: who 01:19:05.989 --> 01:19:10.669 Rupert Isaacson: are maybe doing playing video games that simulate 01:19:10.669 --> 01:19:14.629 some of the adventures that you might have actually had in real life and 01:19:16.879 --> 01:19:23.239 are lacking self-confidence on a level that is disabling. 01:19:26.774 --> 01:19:28.969 What do we do about this? 01:19:31.624 --> 01:19:33.844 Paul Illingworth: That's a 10, $10 million question, isn't it? 01:19:34.414 --> 01:19:37.744 You know, 10-year-old kids nowadays can't go out and deliver papers. 01:19:37.749 --> 01:19:38.464 No, no. 01:19:38.464 --> 01:19:38.824 They can't. 01:19:38.824 --> 01:19:39.724 It's a different world, you know. 01:19:39.784 --> 01:19:39.994 Yeah. 01:19:39.994 --> 01:19:41.614 You know, you, you just can't do it. 01:19:41.614 --> 01:19:45.424 I mean, you know, when my kids were growing up, I was, I was, to be quite 01:19:45.424 --> 01:19:49.474 honest with you, quite scared of them even just going and riding their bicycles 01:19:49.774 --> 01:19:50.904 in our sub subdivision in Houston. 01:19:50.904 --> 01:19:51.089 Sure. 01:19:51.189 --> 01:19:54.214 You know, in Houston, you know, it's as simple as that. 01:19:54.454 --> 01:19:56.764 But I think what you've gotta do is, 01:20:00.004 --> 01:20:04.024 I think it really comes down to you've got to take an interest in 01:20:04.024 --> 01:20:05.944 something that community is doing. 01:20:06.484 --> 01:20:06.664 Okay. 01:20:06.694 --> 01:20:07.174 That's interesting. 01:20:07.249 --> 01:20:10.624 And, and, you know, that can be through a club. 01:20:11.134 --> 01:20:11.494 Mm-hmm. 01:20:11.584 --> 01:20:16.144 YMCA, you know, I, I, again, it's a Christian association. 01:20:16.414 --> 01:20:20.614 I think a lot of people, certainly where I live, I mean, I live in, in 01:20:20.644 --> 01:20:22.324 Texas in what they call the Bible Belt. 01:20:22.354 --> 01:20:25.744 I'm not religious person myself, but I know that. 01:20:26.509 --> 01:20:32.569 The young lads I've met here that do extremely well for themselves. 01:20:32.569 --> 01:20:37.489 They are Christians and the religious, the, the religious side 01:20:37.489 --> 01:20:42.109 of things over here, they go to church, which is a club in effect, 01:20:42.169 --> 01:20:44.149 they communicate with other people. 01:20:44.719 --> 01:20:49.279 And I'm talking about a lot of the young guys around here that grow up on farms 01:20:49.279 --> 01:20:51.679 or on ranches and do things like that. 01:20:51.679 --> 01:20:52.699 They get themselves out. 01:20:52.729 --> 01:20:55.579 They don't get the opportunity to sit around watching television 01:20:55.579 --> 01:20:57.794 or playing computer games 'cause they're out doing stuff. 01:20:57.794 --> 01:20:58.274 They're, 01:20:58.609 --> 01:21:03.589 Rupert Isaacson: exactly, and I mean, look, the life that we leave Paul, it's 01:21:03.589 --> 01:21:06.589 not, it's not representative anymore. 01:21:06.649 --> 01:21:11.179 I mean, you know, no, my kids also are out on the farm working with horses and doing 01:21:11.179 --> 01:21:16.639 stuff and, you know, I don't force them to do it, but there's just stuff to do, 01:21:16.639 --> 01:21:18.109 so, and it's kind of interesting to do. 01:21:18.109 --> 01:21:18.769 So why wouldn't you? 01:21:19.459 --> 01:21:24.769 But if you are living in, as you said, you know, you, you were 01:21:24.769 --> 01:21:29.079 scared when your kids were going out in a subdivision in in Houston. 01:21:29.199 --> 01:21:31.719 And that's of course where most people are is, is in those 01:21:31.719 --> 01:21:33.039 types of suburban environments. 01:21:33.039 --> 01:21:35.949 And you kids are not allowed to work anymore. 01:21:35.979 --> 01:21:40.389 It's also not terribly is is less safe now than it used to be. 01:21:40.869 --> 01:21:44.919 But I like what you said about involvement in community. 01:21:45.609 --> 01:21:45.729 Yeah. 01:21:45.729 --> 01:21:48.849 'cause if, if you haven't got a farm or a ranch to be part of, well 01:21:48.999 --> 01:21:50.289 that just doesn't exist for you. 01:21:51.429 --> 01:21:54.789 But if you're growing up in a, let's say you're on a housing state 01:21:54.789 --> 01:21:56.379 today, in, let, let, let's yeah. 01:21:56.379 --> 01:21:58.149 Dial it back to where you were as a boy. 01:21:58.449 --> 01:22:01.149 You're in a housing state, outskirts of London. 01:22:01.989 --> 01:22:02.799 What's around you? 01:22:02.829 --> 01:22:03.639 There's gonna be 01:22:05.709 --> 01:22:07.839 on the bad side, there's gonna be drugs, there's gonna be. 01:22:08.244 --> 01:22:11.214 Gang stuff, there's going to, but that to some degree was always there. 01:22:11.694 --> 01:22:11.934 Paul Illingworth: Mm-hmm. 01:22:12.234 --> 01:22:14.664 Rupert Isaacson: On the positive side, there's going to be kids who 01:22:14.664 --> 01:22:19.354 are doing creative things like music perhaps sport other things like that. 01:22:19.834 --> 01:22:23.194 But I think, I like that you put your finger on something with community 01:22:23.194 --> 01:22:25.234 involvement and, and service. 01:22:25.444 --> 01:22:29.104 Most people are not gonna be in a church environment, but it's, 01:22:29.104 --> 01:22:30.994 that's a good place to start from. 01:22:30.994 --> 01:22:38.074 I think you are now in this housing estate today in 2025. 01:22:38.704 --> 01:22:43.954 As a father of a bo of a 10-year-old boy. 01:22:43.954 --> 01:22:44.434 What do you do? 01:22:49.414 --> 01:22:51.334 Paul Illingworth: I think what I would, what I would, what I'd 01:22:51.334 --> 01:22:56.394 want to try to do is obviously, you know, school is community. 01:22:56.694 --> 01:22:57.114 Mm-hmm. 01:22:57.384 --> 01:23:01.604 And, not only is school community, but your neighbors are community as well. 01:23:01.754 --> 01:23:01.844 Mm-hmm. 01:23:02.114 --> 01:23:06.974 And certainly when my kids were growing up and, and you know, this wasn't 01:23:06.974 --> 01:23:11.174 that long ago, what was important was actually finding out what the other 01:23:11.174 --> 01:23:12.974 kids in the neighborhood are doing. 01:23:13.244 --> 01:23:15.344 Where are they going, where are they hanging out? 01:23:15.344 --> 01:23:16.724 Are they the tennis court? 01:23:16.724 --> 01:23:20.924 So that the swimming pool, you know, there are places where they, that 01:23:21.254 --> 01:23:25.544 they're gonna go and they're going to, if you like, group together. 01:23:25.544 --> 01:23:27.704 And I don't mean in gangs or anything like that Yeah. 01:23:27.884 --> 01:23:30.674 But just to do, you know, following their interests, basically. 01:23:31.244 --> 01:23:35.564 Interests, you know, do, do you know any, you've get, I, I just think you've 01:23:35.564 --> 01:23:37.184 gotta get the kids out the houses. 01:23:37.424 --> 01:23:37.634 Yeah. 01:23:37.634 --> 01:23:39.254 That's really what it comes down to. 01:23:39.914 --> 01:23:40.454 If you can get, which means you gotta do it 01:23:40.454 --> 01:23:40.904 Rupert Isaacson: with them. 01:23:41.224 --> 01:23:42.434 Paul Illingworth: You've gotta go do it with 'em. 01:23:42.434 --> 01:23:46.454 So, I mean, over here, when my kids were growing up, when my son was growing 01:23:46.454 --> 01:23:50.924 up, we did T-ball, we did baseball, we'd all, I know it's sports again, but 01:23:50.924 --> 01:23:52.964 it's very sport orientated over here. 01:23:52.964 --> 01:23:54.134 And that's what you gotta remember. 01:23:54.644 --> 01:23:57.644 But you know, friends that we have now, they have girls that are in 01:23:57.644 --> 01:23:59.984 gymnastics, that are in swim clubs. 01:24:00.494 --> 01:24:05.714 Most of most of the things are some form of sport orientated. 01:24:05.714 --> 01:24:08.894 But I mean, is there anything wrong with kids getting involved in sport? 01:24:08.894 --> 01:24:13.784 I mean, I got involved in sport, you can't work or you can work, 01:24:13.784 --> 01:24:17.144 but you can't work till you're 13 or 14 or even older than that. 01:24:17.564 --> 01:24:20.384 But working doesn't really seem to be the important thing. 01:24:20.384 --> 01:24:23.174 I think it's, it's community activities. 01:24:23.174 --> 01:24:26.294 And community activities can be sports. 01:24:26.384 --> 01:24:26.744 Rupert Isaacson: Yeah. 01:24:26.834 --> 01:24:28.244 Paul Illingworth: It could be stamp collecting. 01:24:28.454 --> 01:24:29.354 They could be, well, I mean, I think 01:24:29.354 --> 01:24:29.834 Rupert Isaacson: that's the thing. 01:24:29.834 --> 01:24:34.094 I mean, so in my case, the kind of nerd I was, obviously I was riding, right? 01:24:34.364 --> 01:24:35.804 But I'm a huge nature nerd. 01:24:35.804 --> 01:24:41.314 So for me it would've been birdwatching plant identification, animal watching, 01:24:41.584 --> 01:24:44.824 and then from there you get into hiking, you get into mountaineering, you get into, 01:24:45.304 --> 01:24:46.084 Paul Illingworth: exactly. 01:24:46.084 --> 01:24:47.584 And that's one of the things I love now. 01:24:47.584 --> 01:24:50.704 I mean, you know, I'd rather be, I'd rather be outside than 01:24:50.704 --> 01:24:51.634 sitting here at the moment. 01:24:51.634 --> 01:24:54.694 I'd rather be riding my tractor around riding my a TV, going and 01:24:54.694 --> 01:24:56.884 mowing grass, walking with my dogs. 01:24:57.094 --> 01:24:57.724 Yes. 01:24:57.784 --> 01:25:01.264 You know, and, and that's another thing that we, we used to do as well. 01:25:01.264 --> 01:25:02.704 But you did this with your kids? 01:25:02.974 --> 01:25:04.504 I did it with my kids, yeah. 01:25:04.504 --> 01:25:07.774 We used to go to the park, we used to walk the dogs on a regular basis, 01:25:07.834 --> 01:25:10.174 teach them things to do with nature. 01:25:10.414 --> 01:25:10.804 Mm-hmm. 01:25:10.904 --> 01:25:16.574 The problem we have right now, Ruper, is that you've got kids that are growing up 01:25:16.664 --> 01:25:23.654 with parents that almost grew up exactly the same way that they're growing up. 01:25:24.074 --> 01:25:24.164 Mm-hmm. 01:25:24.164 --> 01:25:27.014 Because you had computer games started in the nineties. 01:25:27.014 --> 01:25:27.044 Mm. 01:25:27.254 --> 01:25:28.964 They grew up with computer games. 01:25:28.964 --> 01:25:30.224 They're now having kids. 01:25:30.614 --> 01:25:33.914 So if the, if the parents don't know to go out. 01:25:34.454 --> 01:25:36.134 Themselves and get things done. 01:25:36.134 --> 01:25:36.224 Mm-hmm. 01:25:36.524 --> 01:25:39.524 And want to stay in the house and want to watch television. 01:25:39.824 --> 01:25:42.704 The kids are gonna be grow up exactly the same way. 01:25:43.424 --> 01:25:48.644 So I, it's really, should our, should we be dealing with this from the point of 01:25:48.644 --> 01:25:49.994 view of what should the kids be doing? 01:25:49.994 --> 01:25:54.164 Or should we try, try to educate the parents in what they should be doing? 01:25:54.974 --> 01:25:55.514 I guess 01:25:55.514 --> 01:25:57.434 Rupert Isaacson: that's the other, you know, too, as you 01:25:57.434 --> 01:25:58.784 say, like when, when I was a kid. 01:25:58.784 --> 01:26:02.084 When you were a kid even like when I was in the country in England growing up, 01:26:02.084 --> 01:26:04.034 that not everyone had a car by any means. 01:26:04.524 --> 01:26:04.824 We didn't 01:26:04.824 --> 01:26:05.184 Paul Illingworth: have one. 01:26:05.394 --> 01:26:05.694 Rupert Isaacson: No. 01:26:05.944 --> 01:26:08.224 And I'm talking about also people that lived like out on farms, 01:26:08.224 --> 01:26:09.484 didn't necessarily have cars. 01:26:09.604 --> 01:26:12.334 They'd walked to the top of their driveway, walk to the village, get 01:26:12.334 --> 01:26:14.524 a bus or take a bicycle or whatever. 01:26:14.614 --> 01:26:14.824 Paul Illingworth: Mm-hmm. 01:26:15.414 --> 01:26:17.904 Rupert Isaacson: A lot of places didn't have electricity even growing 01:26:17.904 --> 01:26:20.184 up, I remember on remote farms. 01:26:20.284 --> 01:26:22.474 And then of course that will change somewhere in the eighties. 01:26:22.894 --> 01:26:27.514 But crucially, I think that there was a lot of movement. 01:26:28.564 --> 01:26:30.094 You had to move, right? 01:26:30.389 --> 01:26:34.624 You, you, you, you didn't have an option if you wanted to move 01:26:35.524 --> 01:26:40.414 yourself from one place to another to not do it with your body. 01:26:40.984 --> 01:26:41.074 Paul Illingworth: Yeah. 01:26:41.154 --> 01:26:41.724 Rupert Isaacson: Okay. 01:26:41.724 --> 01:26:43.014 Now this is difficult. 01:26:43.014 --> 01:26:47.424 If you grew up in a subdivision that has no public transport and you are 01:26:47.754 --> 01:26:51.634 the only option is cars you might be able to ride your bicycle around, you 01:26:51.634 --> 01:26:53.314 know, the cul-de-sacs or whatever. 01:26:53.314 --> 01:26:56.554 But, but as you say, I guess then you do have things like skateboarding. 01:26:56.554 --> 01:26:59.884 You do have things like, but it's very difficult not to 01:26:59.884 --> 01:27:02.434 end up indoors on a computer. 01:27:03.244 --> 01:27:03.484 Yeah. 01:27:03.584 --> 01:27:07.904 And it's marketed at you and as you say, with parents who are maybe, 01:27:07.904 --> 01:27:12.644 you know, two job parents or single parent, you know, more than one kid. 01:27:13.844 --> 01:27:18.734 But I think you did put your finger on it when you talked about community. 01:27:19.244 --> 01:27:22.394 So the way I would think about community as tribe. 01:27:23.519 --> 01:27:27.029 And as you know, I spent a lot of time in Africa living with tribes 01:27:27.089 --> 01:27:29.369 and my own family's very tribal. 01:27:29.769 --> 01:27:33.639 I grew up with a lot of cousins, you know, southern Africans and there were 01:27:33.639 --> 01:27:36.309 always just a procession of cousins coming through the house from everywhere. 01:27:36.939 --> 01:27:40.809 And it was considered normal that we'd all end up at each other's 01:27:40.809 --> 01:27:44.199 places at whenever, and you could kind of stay as long as you wanted. 01:27:44.199 --> 01:27:45.099 It was all right. 01:27:45.249 --> 01:27:48.549 You had to muck in, but everyone was always welcome everywhere. 01:27:49.209 --> 01:27:51.699 That level of, so, you know, and so to some degree we were 01:27:51.699 --> 01:27:52.869 all in service to each other. 01:27:52.869 --> 01:27:53.109 Right. 01:27:57.579 --> 01:28:01.809 I think I, I wonder if we've lost the habit of that, so that as you 01:28:01.809 --> 01:28:06.654 say, yes, sometimes church, you know, but, and, and then you moved, you, 01:28:06.659 --> 01:28:07.929 you didn't have that growing up. 01:28:08.949 --> 01:28:13.659 But when you got to say Houston with your kids, you saw the value of it. 01:28:13.659 --> 01:28:16.089 Why did you see the value of it when you didn't have it growing 01:28:16.089 --> 01:28:18.669 up, and why did you know that that was something you had to give them? 01:28:19.629 --> 01:28:21.699 Paul Illingworth: Well, you know, I think, to be quite honest with 01:28:21.699 --> 01:28:27.459 you, it was, it was a really a case of what are the community doing. 01:28:27.879 --> 01:28:32.229 So, you know, when we first moved over here and, and started to make contact 01:28:32.229 --> 01:28:36.969 with, with local people and, and they had kids in the subdivision that we lived in, 01:28:36.969 --> 01:28:38.229 it's like, well, what are the kids doing? 01:28:38.259 --> 01:28:40.689 Oh, they're going down the road and they're playing T-ball, 01:28:40.689 --> 01:28:41.919 they're playing baseball there. 01:28:41.979 --> 01:28:44.679 Right, right next to where the house was. 01:28:44.679 --> 01:28:47.019 There was there was a little sports field there. 01:28:47.499 --> 01:28:50.679 And so, you know, we went down there to see what was going on. 01:28:50.709 --> 01:28:53.469 Knew nothing about baseball T-Ball, you know. 01:28:54.009 --> 01:28:56.139 Or any of the sports whatsoever. 01:28:56.679 --> 01:29:00.879 Jack, my son was six at the time when we moved to the us. 01:29:00.879 --> 01:29:02.379 My daughter wasn't even born. 01:29:02.379 --> 01:29:04.539 She was born a couple of years after I moved over here. 01:29:05.259 --> 01:29:09.939 So, you know, I had a 6-year-old that would've ended up being 01:29:09.939 --> 01:29:12.219 stuck in the house all the time for didn't do something with him. 01:29:12.219 --> 01:29:14.709 And I was, I was working, I mean, I, you know, I had a very, 01:29:14.709 --> 01:29:16.899 very high busy, high level job. 01:29:17.649 --> 01:29:18.789 But I had to do something. 01:29:18.789 --> 01:29:22.179 So yeah, we would talk to the neighbors, the neighbors had kids, 01:29:22.179 --> 01:29:23.469 find out what the kids were doing. 01:29:23.679 --> 01:29:29.679 We used the community, if you like, to figure out what to do with the kids. 01:29:30.069 --> 01:29:32.559 And, and that's what we did all the time. 01:29:32.709 --> 01:29:36.459 So your tribe really, it, it's almost like. 01:29:37.149 --> 01:29:39.459 It was a small subdivision that we lived in. 01:29:39.489 --> 01:29:43.119 There was probably only about 20, 25 houses, but that was our community. 01:29:43.509 --> 01:29:43.659 Yeah. 01:29:43.689 --> 01:29:48.939 And that's plus the fact, you know, that I would, when I would go to work, I, I, as I 01:29:48.939 --> 01:29:53.229 built the business up in Houston and start to hire people, I'd go to their houses, 01:29:53.229 --> 01:29:55.179 talk to their families, what do you do? 01:29:55.179 --> 01:29:57.189 You know, blah, blah, blah, blah. 01:29:57.189 --> 01:29:58.239 Where do you do things? 01:29:58.239 --> 01:30:03.519 How I needed to learn how the American system worked as well as you, you know 01:30:03.519 --> 01:30:07.719 this because you came over here and lived over here for a number of years. 01:30:07.719 --> 01:30:07.779 Yeah. 01:30:07.779 --> 01:30:08.739 It's very different. 01:30:08.799 --> 01:30:11.409 Very different from being living in Europe. 01:30:11.414 --> 01:30:11.864 Yes, it is. 01:30:13.149 --> 01:30:18.189 And we, but we've now got to the point 20 years later where you're absolutely right. 01:30:18.369 --> 01:30:19.989 There is no public transport. 01:30:20.589 --> 01:30:24.639 There is no way of getting around other than being driven by your parents. 01:30:24.669 --> 01:30:24.729 Yeah. 01:30:24.729 --> 01:30:29.859 So as a kid, all you do get, you get put in a car, you get taken somewhere. 01:30:30.099 --> 01:30:30.219 Yeah. 01:30:30.219 --> 01:30:32.889 You go and do that activity, you go back home. 01:30:32.979 --> 01:30:38.439 And how much of those activities are related to the actual community that 01:30:38.439 --> 01:30:41.649 you live in, and how much are related to the school is difficult to say. 01:30:41.649 --> 01:30:45.579 It's probably more school orientated. 01:30:45.579 --> 01:30:49.719 In other words, whatever the school kids do, that's what you do, but 01:30:49.719 --> 01:30:52.779 the kids are being transported from one place to another. 01:30:53.199 --> 01:30:53.439 Yeah. 01:30:53.539 --> 01:30:59.569 One of the things that I have noticed is getting, and I dunno what it's like in 01:30:59.569 --> 01:31:05.919 Europe, but is getting very, very bad over here, is what I call self gratification. 01:31:07.089 --> 01:31:12.669 People are growing up with an attitude that the world owes them something, 01:31:12.759 --> 01:31:18.189 community owes them something, and they expect to get that out of the 01:31:18.189 --> 01:31:21.519 community without really putting an awful lot back into it again. 01:31:22.189 --> 01:31:23.869 It, it's, it's almost like. 01:31:24.859 --> 01:31:27.409 It's a bit of selfishness to a certain extent. 01:31:28.029 --> 01:31:31.659 You know, I've always looked at life as you get out of it, whatever you put in. 01:31:32.469 --> 01:31:35.409 So you've got to be prepared to put something into life in order 01:31:35.409 --> 01:31:36.669 to be able to get something out. 01:31:36.939 --> 01:31:42.249 And unfortunately, I think kids today, particularly in the, certainly where 01:31:42.249 --> 01:31:45.849 I live in the US, expects everything to be handed to them on a plate. 01:31:46.719 --> 01:31:49.479 Rupert Isaacson: I mean, I think every older generation has always said this 01:31:49.479 --> 01:31:50.859 about every younger generation forever. 01:31:50.859 --> 01:31:51.249 I'm sure 01:31:51.249 --> 01:31:51.729 Paul Illingworth: they have. 01:31:51.729 --> 01:31:51.999 Absolutely. 01:31:51.999 --> 01:31:52.839 I mean, you remember 01:31:52.839 --> 01:31:54.759 Rupert Isaacson: your dad would've moaned at you about that. 01:31:54.759 --> 01:31:54.849 Yes. 01:31:54.849 --> 01:31:59.379 And my dad and granddad moaned at me about that, you know, but I think 01:31:59.559 --> 01:32:05.649 perhaps each generation is right in that what they observe is young 01:32:05.649 --> 01:32:08.319 people trying to figure it out and. 01:32:09.939 --> 01:32:14.259 While they're in that figuring out process, they get stuff wrong, you know? 01:32:14.259 --> 01:32:14.439 Yeah. 01:32:14.679 --> 01:32:18.789 And that noise, the older generation, but I, I do think it's more acute now 01:32:18.789 --> 01:32:22.149 in terms of like, so for example, here in Germany where I am, my kids can 01:32:22.149 --> 01:32:23.739 take a bicycle and ride to the store. 01:32:23.739 --> 01:32:27.609 They can walk to the store, they can go and figure out how to do 01:32:27.609 --> 01:32:30.699 their own shopping, and they're at their 10 and eight, and they can do 01:32:30.699 --> 01:32:32.079 that, they can do that safely here. 01:32:32.449 --> 01:32:34.709 They can walk to their grandparents' house. 01:32:35.059 --> 01:32:36.589 This is all very normal, right? 01:32:36.619 --> 01:32:38.539 They can go down to the creek and play. 01:32:39.069 --> 01:32:45.109 And you are not paranoid about their safety in the way 01:32:45.109 --> 01:32:47.240 that one would be in the USA. 01:32:47.245 --> 01:32:47.444 Mm-hmm. 01:32:47.524 --> 01:32:51.349 I wouldn't probably let them do it in the USA unless we were in a very, very 01:32:51.349 --> 01:32:54.619 rural area and kind of had control of the land and the environment. 01:32:55.064 --> 01:32:55.484 Mm-hmm. 01:32:55.584 --> 01:32:55.804 And. 01:32:57.194 --> 01:32:59.564 It is still safer here. 01:32:59.954 --> 01:33:02.924 And then you have, you do have a lot of what are called vet 01:33:02.924 --> 01:33:04.334 irons here, which are clubs. 01:33:04.814 --> 01:33:09.864 So, you know, we're part of a, a right vet in a riding club, which means that 01:33:09.924 --> 01:33:13.734 if we all put our money in, we all have access to these facilities like arenas 01:33:13.734 --> 01:33:17.244 and jumps and things like that, that we wouldn't be able to put in ourselves 01:33:17.244 --> 01:33:19.074 privately, but collectively we can. 01:33:19.104 --> 01:33:19.254 Mm-hmm. 01:33:19.349 --> 01:33:24.144 But we have to do a certain number of work hours as well as putting in dues. 01:33:24.504 --> 01:33:27.834 We've actually, so the kids have to show up and, and, and, and there's 01:33:27.834 --> 01:33:29.334 work hours for kids in the V Right. 01:33:29.364 --> 01:33:30.744 It's not just for the, for the parents. 01:33:31.254 --> 01:33:36.954 And then there's nabu, which is our local nature conservation, and we have 01:33:36.954 --> 01:33:42.504 to go out and into the orchards around here and clean out the owl boxes. 01:33:43.024 --> 01:33:46.234 Get up a ladder, do that, deal, scoop out the ship. 01:33:46.234 --> 01:33:47.404 But there's interesting stuff in there. 01:33:47.494 --> 01:33:51.544 And then you find door mice and you find, you know, and there is this. 01:33:52.654 --> 01:33:55.564 Yeah, I think, I think you nailed it with community. 01:33:55.714 --> 01:33:58.564 It's there people say it's not as good as it was. 01:33:59.104 --> 01:34:01.594 You know, you talk to the old generation here, they say it's, it's, 01:34:01.864 --> 01:34:03.574 Paul Illingworth: oh no, I'm, it's been eroded, but, 01:34:03.664 --> 01:34:05.554 Rupert Isaacson: but it's still much stronger, I think. 01:34:05.674 --> 01:34:07.474 And there's a very good public transport. 01:34:07.474 --> 01:34:12.484 So you, you know, we're out here, for example, Rowan, my 23-year-old son who 01:34:12.484 --> 01:34:13.774 you know very well, who's autistic. 01:34:13.864 --> 01:34:13.954 Paul Illingworth: Mm-hmm. 01:34:14.194 --> 01:34:14.314 When 01:34:14.314 --> 01:34:16.264 Rupert Isaacson: he's in Texas, he has to drive everywhere 01:34:16.264 --> 01:34:17.374 and thank God he can drive. 01:34:17.614 --> 01:34:21.754 But here he takes the trains all over and he stays in youth hostels and he 01:34:22.264 --> 01:34:24.664 explores different cities in, in Europe. 01:34:24.784 --> 01:34:29.524 And he can do that because there is still kind of a, of a system. 01:34:29.734 --> 01:34:30.274 But 01:34:32.704 --> 01:34:37.144 you, you, when you were a kid, you didn't have that community involvement. 01:34:37.144 --> 01:34:39.124 You had to make it through that rugby team, right. 01:34:39.124 --> 01:34:40.234 You had to manufacture it. 01:34:40.414 --> 01:34:42.244 What would've happened to you if you hadn't done that? 01:34:45.094 --> 01:34:45.604 Paul Illingworth: Oh. 01:34:49.054 --> 01:34:52.054 I'll be quite honest with you, I think I would've ended up being a 01:34:52.054 --> 01:34:56.714 lot more insular and isolated Okay. 01:34:58.964 --> 01:35:00.284 Than, than I was. 01:35:00.284 --> 01:35:05.654 I mean, you know, the community I went, you know, my, my high school 01:35:05.654 --> 01:35:09.954 had 600 kids which is nothing compared to what you have today. 01:35:10.314 --> 01:35:14.814 And as you worked your way up through the years in the school, you almost 01:35:14.814 --> 01:35:16.314 got to know everybody in the school. 01:35:16.314 --> 01:35:20.129 I wouldn't say you knew everybody, but you know, you, you, you got it. 01:35:20.134 --> 01:35:23.304 It really was being part of the community. 01:35:23.334 --> 01:35:26.904 Now, it didn't matter whether you played a sport, you could be part of 01:35:26.904 --> 01:35:31.624 the community by supporting one of the teams or just hanging out with 01:35:31.624 --> 01:35:32.824 the guys that played in the teams. 01:35:32.854 --> 01:35:36.124 If I did, if I hadn't have had anything to do with rugby, this. 01:35:36.784 --> 01:35:40.294 I was involved in a lot of stuff at school as far as sports are concerned, 01:35:40.294 --> 01:35:41.764 because I was a very sporty person. 01:35:41.764 --> 01:35:46.234 Now, if I wasn't a sporty person or for whatever reason I couldn't do 01:35:46.234 --> 01:35:51.634 the sport, I think I would've been a very, very insular type of person. 01:35:52.084 --> 01:35:55.054 'Cause I think that's what made me, you know, I'm quite 01:35:55.054 --> 01:35:57.004 gregarious, I'm very outgoing. 01:35:57.004 --> 01:35:59.194 I'll talk to anybody, you know, that mm-hmm. 01:35:59.309 --> 01:36:02.224 That has, that has, that's part of my character that really 01:36:02.224 --> 01:36:04.024 built up through those years. 01:36:04.504 --> 01:36:04.594 Mm-hmm. 01:36:04.654 --> 01:36:11.374 Because prior to going to, at 10 years old, so, so I, I 01:36:11.374 --> 01:36:12.574 wanna backtrack a little bit. 01:36:12.574 --> 01:36:12.904 Okay. 01:36:13.144 --> 01:36:17.164 So when my father got really, really sick and the building business started 01:36:17.164 --> 01:36:23.284 to collapse in London I was six, seven years old and we couldn't afford 01:36:23.284 --> 01:36:24.994 to live in the townhouse in London. 01:36:25.054 --> 01:36:31.274 So, my mother who had some contacts, shall we say with the theater people 01:36:31.274 --> 01:36:34.814 in London, I'm not gonna mention any names, but she she was good friends 01:36:34.814 --> 01:36:36.734 with a couple of very famous actresses. 01:36:37.304 --> 01:36:41.054 One of the actresses had an old cottage out in the Hartford sheer 01:36:41.054 --> 01:36:43.724 countryside that had no electricity. 01:36:43.964 --> 01:36:47.154 It had no water, running water, just as you were talking about. 01:36:48.224 --> 01:36:49.994 And it needed work doing to it. 01:36:49.994 --> 01:36:52.364 Well, my dad was able to do some work. 01:36:52.394 --> 01:36:54.794 He couldn't do a lot of heavy work, but he was able to do some work. 01:36:55.034 --> 01:36:57.884 We moved into that cottage and spent three years there. 01:36:59.564 --> 01:37:03.854 But I went to a local school that had 20 kids in it. 01:37:04.214 --> 01:37:06.969 So my junior school year Village school, 01:37:07.184 --> 01:37:07.604 Rupert Isaacson: right? 01:37:07.664 --> 01:37:07.904 Yeah. 01:37:07.904 --> 01:37:08.084 Village 01:37:08.084 --> 01:37:08.684 Paul Illingworth: school. 01:37:08.804 --> 01:37:09.044 Yeah. 01:37:09.074 --> 01:37:10.244 20 kids, right? 01:37:10.754 --> 01:37:11.344 Yeah, yeah, yeah. 01:37:12.014 --> 01:37:13.244 And tribe. 01:37:14.234 --> 01:37:15.314 So I tribe, yeah. 01:37:16.064 --> 01:37:19.184 I spent this little cottage was in the middle of nowhere. 01:37:19.184 --> 01:37:19.244 Yeah. 01:37:19.274 --> 01:37:21.494 With fields all round country. 01:37:21.494 --> 01:37:21.974 All round. 01:37:21.974 --> 01:37:24.314 I was surrounded by nature, but it was tribes. 01:37:24.314 --> 01:37:30.854 So when we then moved into the council house in Hoon, which was a lot more urban, 01:37:30.854 --> 01:37:36.104 shall we say, than than rural, that's when I started to get bullied because I wasn't 01:37:36.104 --> 01:37:37.814 used to, I didn't know anybody there. 01:37:37.814 --> 01:37:40.394 There was no tribe I'd lost it all completely. 01:37:40.964 --> 01:37:42.284 And I was a bit of a loner. 01:37:42.464 --> 01:37:43.694 I mean, I really, really was. 01:37:43.694 --> 01:37:45.314 It was just me and my sister living there. 01:37:45.314 --> 01:37:46.754 My mom and dad didn't know anybody. 01:37:46.754 --> 01:37:47.594 They couldn't go out. 01:37:47.594 --> 01:37:48.524 They couldn't do anything. 01:37:48.524 --> 01:37:50.174 There was no community whatsoever. 01:37:51.164 --> 01:37:53.894 So I became, 01:37:56.144 --> 01:37:57.554 I definitely did become a loner. 01:37:57.584 --> 01:37:59.804 'cause I can remember going out, what do I wanna do? 01:37:59.804 --> 01:38:03.434 Well, I'm gonna go buy some, get some bicycle parts and build myself a bicycle. 01:38:03.434 --> 01:38:04.574 'cause I couldn't afford to buy one. 01:38:04.574 --> 01:38:08.624 So I ended up building a bicycle and then I started to get round. 01:38:08.924 --> 01:38:13.934 But then I went into the high school, the secondary school, and all of a sudden. 01:38:14.774 --> 01:38:18.194 I was able to build my own community there, and that's when 01:38:18.194 --> 01:38:19.844 I started to be more outgoing. 01:38:19.844 --> 01:38:22.064 So it's very, very easy. 01:38:22.754 --> 01:38:25.784 Not you, you've, you've gotta work on those skills. 01:38:25.784 --> 01:38:26.324 I think. 01:38:26.534 --> 01:38:28.574 It doesn't come naturally and it doesn't come natural. 01:38:28.724 --> 01:38:28.784 Yeah. 01:38:28.819 --> 01:38:29.174 I, I think, I 01:38:29.174 --> 01:38:29.684 Rupert Isaacson: think you're right. 01:38:29.684 --> 01:38:32.084 I'm sort of thinking back to some of my own, because as you know, 01:38:32.084 --> 01:38:37.214 I'm also very gregarious, but I wasn't always, and everyone's had 01:38:37.214 --> 01:38:40.634 the experience of being bullied and everyone's had, everyone's had that and 01:38:40.844 --> 01:38:41.264 Paul Illingworth: yeah, I 01:38:41.264 --> 01:38:42.224 Rupert Isaacson: had to deal with it. 01:38:42.224 --> 01:38:42.524 Right. 01:38:42.614 --> 01:38:48.004 And there was also, I think, yeah, a crucial period of learning how to build 01:38:48.454 --> 01:38:50.554 community through my love of horses. 01:38:50.944 --> 01:38:53.374 And then of course, you, you find other people that have 01:38:53.374 --> 01:38:54.634 that and you share that with us. 01:38:54.634 --> 01:38:55.384 It was the local hunt. 01:38:56.029 --> 01:38:57.529 Because you didn't need money to be in the hunt. 01:38:57.589 --> 01:39:00.529 You know, you, you, you just had to be part of the pony club, right. 01:39:00.619 --> 01:39:04.259 And the pony club let you hunt for free and subsidized everything 01:39:04.259 --> 01:39:06.179 to get people onto that track. 01:39:06.509 --> 01:39:09.419 And it was good 'cause it ended up being kind of a career track for me 01:39:09.479 --> 01:39:10.829 alongside everything else I've done. 01:39:11.249 --> 01:39:16.139 But it wasn't always like that and I wasn't terribly well accepted 'cause 01:39:16.139 --> 01:39:18.689 I was a London boy not for English. 01:39:18.719 --> 01:39:23.069 Like in less coming up through that and you had to kind of find your way. 01:39:23.789 --> 01:39:28.509 Do you think that if the computer games and that whole thing had been 01:39:28.509 --> 01:39:33.129 around when you were a kid on there, on that estate, would you have 01:39:33.129 --> 01:39:34.509 fallen into that trap, do you think? 01:39:35.109 --> 01:39:35.919 Paul Illingworth: Quite possibly. 01:39:36.999 --> 01:39:37.959 I can't say no. 01:39:38.049 --> 01:39:42.279 Yeah, because, you know, it's, it's, it's one of these things. 01:39:42.339 --> 01:39:45.039 I mean, I think I mentioned earlier on, you know, I don't sit around watching 01:39:45.039 --> 01:39:47.019 television or reading newspapers. 01:39:47.349 --> 01:39:51.429 I gave up reading newspapers about 40 years ago when every time I opened the 01:39:51.429 --> 01:39:53.289 newspaper, there was nothing good in them. 01:39:53.319 --> 01:39:54.489 So I just stopped reading. 01:39:54.489 --> 01:39:55.569 Was there anything good in that? 01:39:55.569 --> 01:39:58.989 No, I don't think, I don't think there ever was any, anyway. 01:39:59.409 --> 01:40:02.889 You know, and I mean, I would, I would watch the television really just to find 01:40:02.889 --> 01:40:04.059 out what was happening with the news. 01:40:04.059 --> 01:40:06.999 And even today, if I watch television, it's B, B, C, I just 01:40:06.999 --> 01:40:09.849 watch B, you know, the B, b, C news, because I get worldwide news. 01:40:09.849 --> 01:40:12.909 I don't get the, shall we say the American stuff that get 01:40:12.909 --> 01:40:14.169 shoved down your throat here. 01:40:14.199 --> 01:40:14.409 Yeah. 01:40:14.829 --> 01:40:15.844 But yeah, you know. 01:40:17.064 --> 01:40:18.954 If there was computer games around. 01:40:18.984 --> 01:40:22.674 I mean, I've tried computer games when my kids were grown up and 01:40:22.674 --> 01:40:24.009 they had computer games, but yeah. 01:40:24.029 --> 01:40:27.894 But they're just not something that really, they don't engage me enough. 01:40:27.954 --> 01:40:28.254 You know? 01:40:28.254 --> 01:40:31.584 It, it's, it's, it's too tunnel vision for me. 01:40:31.584 --> 01:40:34.554 I like to look at the broader picture of what's going on around me. 01:40:35.244 --> 01:40:42.804 But, you know, it definitely being able to, to go out and get involved 01:40:42.804 --> 01:40:45.534 with community activities Yeah. 01:40:45.599 --> 01:40:48.564 Is, is, is, and it is, it comes back to the tribe. 01:40:48.564 --> 01:40:50.274 It doesn't matter what your tribe is. 01:40:50.274 --> 01:40:54.419 It can be a subdivision, you know, it can be a team at school, it can be anything. 01:40:54.559 --> 01:40:57.474 But I think tribe is very, very important. 01:40:58.134 --> 01:41:02.449 There, there was, there's, there's somewhere that, that I want to go here 01:41:02.449 --> 01:41:05.329 and it's like in, it's, it's in the back of my mind and I'm just trying 01:41:05.329 --> 01:41:07.519 to find the, the right words for it. 01:41:07.519 --> 01:41:07.849 But. 01:41:10.069 --> 01:41:14.869 One of my most recent experiences is running the escape room business. 01:41:15.349 --> 01:41:15.439 Mm-hmm. 01:41:15.589 --> 01:41:15.619 Okay. 01:41:15.949 --> 01:41:19.219 Now, for those of you that may not know what an escape room 01:41:19.219 --> 01:41:20.569 is, I'm sure most people do. 01:41:20.689 --> 01:41:23.599 You actually, you don't get locked into a room and have to escape. 01:41:23.999 --> 01:41:28.139 It's a themed room where there are puzzles that you have to solve to 01:41:28.139 --> 01:41:29.519 work your way through the game. 01:41:29.519 --> 01:41:32.399 So it's kind of a game, it's an interactive game. 01:41:33.179 --> 01:41:37.509 And the staff that I had running the, this business, it, it know it was 01:41:37.509 --> 01:41:39.039 a very, very successful business. 01:41:39.039 --> 01:41:41.619 We had eight different games all themed differently. 01:41:41.619 --> 01:41:46.669 We had a pirate one, we had a Scooby-Doo one we had a laboratory one, a haunted 01:41:46.669 --> 01:41:49.279 mansion, so different types of things. 01:41:50.329 --> 01:41:53.569 Almost all the staff that we employed at that business, and 01:41:53.569 --> 01:41:57.109 we had 12 to 15 people were. 01:41:58.159 --> 01:42:02.509 Guys and girls that were anything from high school age that's literally 01:42:02.569 --> 01:42:06.559 17 years old through to 23, 24. 01:42:06.559 --> 01:42:12.499 So mainly young people that were either at school or were at college or had 01:42:12.499 --> 01:42:16.729 decided not to go to college, but needed, were looking for another career. 01:42:17.929 --> 01:42:23.869 So I had five years of dealing with people, both guys and 01:42:23.869 --> 01:42:26.899 girls of that age group, right? 01:42:27.679 --> 01:42:31.849 And so I've got quite a lot of experience of actually what we are 01:42:31.849 --> 01:42:33.764 talking about here to date through that. 01:42:35.149 --> 01:42:42.079 Now, the people that we employed, there were basically three different positions, 01:42:42.439 --> 01:42:44.869 but everybody started off as a host. 01:42:45.379 --> 01:42:48.289 And as a host, you're, you're dealing with the customers when they 01:42:48.289 --> 01:42:51.919 come in the store, you're talking to them, you're engaging them. 01:42:52.309 --> 01:42:56.349 You have to learn to basically explain to them what. 01:42:56.739 --> 01:43:00.129 The business is about what the game is about, that they're gonna play. 01:43:00.399 --> 01:43:05.109 And then you help them to go into the room, brief them going in the room, and 01:43:05.109 --> 01:43:09.459 then when they finish playing the game, you take them out of the room, take a 01:43:09.459 --> 01:43:11.859 photograph, say thank you very much. 01:43:11.859 --> 01:43:12.999 So it's customer service. 01:43:12.999 --> 01:43:15.189 You are teaching people to communicate? 01:43:15.459 --> 01:43:15.729 Mm-hmm. 01:43:15.734 --> 01:43:16.004 Okay. 01:43:17.469 --> 01:43:20.979 The other side of the business, once they've learned all that side 01:43:20.979 --> 01:43:24.489 of the business, is going into the rooms and resetting the room. 01:43:24.489 --> 01:43:27.159 So after you play a game, you've gotta put all the props 01:43:27.159 --> 01:43:28.599 and everything back in place. 01:43:28.629 --> 01:43:28.959 Okay. 01:43:29.439 --> 01:43:33.309 That's attention to detail, totally different skillset, but 01:43:33.309 --> 01:43:35.349 everybody has to learn it and. 01:43:36.084 --> 01:43:39.744 Eventually when you're good, you start to time yourself. 01:43:40.224 --> 01:43:43.614 So now you, you're giving yourself a challenge because you're seeing 01:43:43.614 --> 01:43:46.614 how fast you can actually put all that stuff back in place again. 01:43:46.614 --> 01:43:49.554 And there was little competitions we used to have, and you'd get a 01:43:49.554 --> 01:43:53.574 $25 gift card for the fastest person per, you know, at a certain time. 01:43:54.264 --> 01:43:58.194 The next set of skills you learn, when you learn how to reset the games, you 01:43:58.194 --> 01:44:00.204 know, the games, you become a game master. 01:44:00.954 --> 01:44:06.324 A game master is like playing a computer game, but with real people. 01:44:07.404 --> 01:44:11.004 You're looking at a TV screen that has multiple cameras. 01:44:11.394 --> 01:44:15.144 You are helping the people in the rooms, you're sending them clues, 01:44:15.564 --> 01:44:17.454 it, you're answering questions. 01:44:17.454 --> 01:44:23.184 So it's very, very focused, but looking like a computer going right. 01:44:23.454 --> 01:44:25.284 And you don't run one game at a time. 01:44:25.284 --> 01:44:28.404 The game Masters are running three or four games at a time. 01:44:28.404 --> 01:44:32.424 So you may have, you can have eight people playing a game. 01:44:32.844 --> 01:44:37.044 You can have four times eight people, or 32 people that you're responsible 01:44:37.044 --> 01:44:38.904 for making sure they have a good time. 01:44:39.264 --> 01:44:40.884 That's what the business is all about. 01:44:41.874 --> 01:44:43.524 So where am I going with this? 01:44:44.424 --> 01:44:46.824 How do you pick people that you're gonna hire? 01:44:47.334 --> 01:44:51.204 Because you don't hire people as a game master straight away. 01:44:51.204 --> 01:44:52.404 They've gotta learn the business. 01:44:52.404 --> 01:44:55.074 It's like starting off as a deckhand and becoming the captain. 01:44:55.194 --> 01:44:56.844 The captain is the game master. 01:44:57.054 --> 01:44:57.414 Alright. 01:44:58.404 --> 01:45:05.334 So we had to pick people and nine times outta 10, nine times outta 10, 01:45:05.664 --> 01:45:10.104 the people that we interviewed had no communication skills whatsoever. 01:45:10.404 --> 01:45:13.464 They could be 17, 18 years old, high schoolers. 01:45:13.824 --> 01:45:15.984 They could be people that have been to college. 01:45:16.314 --> 01:45:19.194 We ha we would interview people and we do zoom interviews. 01:45:19.194 --> 01:45:24.564 We'd interview people that have very good resumes, five years of customer service. 01:45:25.239 --> 01:45:26.559 They couldn't talk to anybody. 01:45:26.739 --> 01:45:30.159 I'd do a Zoom interview with people and ask 'em questions, and they'd just stare 01:45:30.159 --> 01:45:31.629 at me like a deer in the headlights. 01:45:31.629 --> 01:45:32.409 They had no idea. 01:45:33.639 --> 01:45:34.959 Did we hire those people? 01:45:34.959 --> 01:45:39.489 Yes, we did, because it's a way of actually teaching what what we 01:45:39.489 --> 01:45:41.829 made them was part of our tribe. 01:45:43.389 --> 01:45:44.894 This is where I'm coming with this, right? 01:45:44.894 --> 01:45:48.609 Because it was a great opportunity for us to actually take people from the 01:45:48.609 --> 01:45:54.129 outside world, bring them into our tribe, and teach them skills going forward. 01:45:55.029 --> 01:46:00.819 And the ones that succeeded were the ones that were able to embrace 01:46:00.909 --> 01:46:03.219 the, the, the job responsibilities. 01:46:03.669 --> 01:46:09.879 We, we hired high school girls that, that wouldn't say boo to a mouse three months 01:46:09.879 --> 01:46:13.269 after coming to work for us, if, you know, they were literally throwing people 01:46:13.269 --> 01:46:16.599 out the door that, you know, somebody came in drunk on a Saturday night. 01:46:17.019 --> 01:46:22.119 That's, that's how good they got because they got confidence in themselves. 01:46:22.764 --> 01:46:25.044 Now there's a point I'm going here with this. 01:46:25.224 --> 01:46:25.584 Okay. 01:46:26.424 --> 01:46:33.984 The point is that a lot of the boys, the boys struggled more with 01:46:33.984 --> 01:46:37.494 the customer service side and the interaction than the girls did. 01:46:37.554 --> 01:46:41.784 The girls always seemed to have the ability to be able to deal with customers. 01:46:42.774 --> 01:46:44.244 What did the boys wanna do? 01:46:44.784 --> 01:46:49.524 They wanted to become game masters because they were all gamers and 01:46:49.524 --> 01:46:50.409 they wanted Right, that's, yeah. 01:46:50.439 --> 01:46:50.729 Yeah. 01:46:50.784 --> 01:46:55.074 They wanted to sit in a room on their own, not have to deal with, 01:46:55.074 --> 01:46:58.314 not have to deal with the real world, but they were very good at 01:46:58.314 --> 01:46:59.904 controlling what people were doing. 01:47:00.354 --> 01:47:03.954 And they were the best game masters we had were gamers. 01:47:04.674 --> 01:47:09.294 But because we made them go through the whole customer service thing 01:47:09.354 --> 01:47:12.984 and they, once they got to become game masters, they didn't just sit 01:47:12.984 --> 01:47:14.544 there and be a game master forever. 01:47:14.544 --> 01:47:17.424 We used to make 'em go back up front and do customer service. 01:47:17.694 --> 01:47:18.084 Okay. 01:47:18.084 --> 01:47:18.264 But. 01:47:19.149 --> 01:47:23.349 They were also very, very good at resetting the games 'cause they became 01:47:23.349 --> 01:47:25.029 focused on what they were doing. 01:47:25.779 --> 01:47:28.259 Rupert Isaacson: This is really interesting because basically what 01:47:28.259 --> 01:47:32.399 you're, you're saying is that Yeah, something So community involvement, 01:47:32.399 --> 01:47:35.069 that is an escape room business. 01:47:35.459 --> 01:47:35.789 Paul Illingworth: Yeah. 01:47:36.329 --> 01:47:40.169 Rupert Isaacson: With tribe run by somebody like you who's taught people to 01:47:40.169 --> 01:47:44.639 do much more complex and dangerous things with much high levels of responsibility. 01:47:44.639 --> 01:47:47.789 So you're not worried, you, you, you like, you know, you can get these 01:47:47.789 --> 01:47:50.249 people to where they need to go. 01:47:50.249 --> 01:47:52.169 And yet at the same time, it's very real. 01:47:53.009 --> 01:47:57.119 And that to my mind is a very interesting place to end up in this conversation 01:47:57.119 --> 01:48:04.229 because you are, you are in the gaming world there in subdivision world. 01:48:04.319 --> 01:48:06.959 This, these things are happening in the suburbs, often in strip malls. 01:48:07.439 --> 01:48:10.709 I mean they might be downtown, but a lot of escape malls around, 01:48:10.739 --> 01:48:12.209 you know, in, in strip mall land. 01:48:12.809 --> 01:48:17.339 It's tapping into what that generation knows. 01:48:18.369 --> 01:48:22.089 And I'm thinking, you know, one of the other things that we've often looked 01:48:22.089 --> 01:48:26.409 at and and done stuff with with our autism work is LARPing Live action. 01:48:26.409 --> 01:48:26.919 Role play. 01:48:27.459 --> 01:48:28.359 Yeah, yeah. 01:48:28.359 --> 01:48:32.259 Because it's, it's also, you know, it it, and that, that world is a brilliant world 01:48:32.749 --> 01:48:38.159 for people that are sometimes neurodiverse that, you know, the Ren fare world, the 01:48:38.159 --> 01:48:40.619 SCA, those of you dunno, the SCA is Yeah. 01:48:40.799 --> 01:48:42.539 Or do a whole episode on the SCA. 01:48:42.569 --> 01:48:44.999 It's, it's, it's, that's a great rabbit hole. 01:48:45.299 --> 01:48:49.079 But gaming actually, because what, what is gaming? 01:48:49.079 --> 01:48:49.919 Gaming is. 01:48:50.609 --> 01:48:54.419 When you do it live well then you're back to your rugby team, aren't you? 01:48:54.419 --> 01:48:56.129 You're back to community. 01:48:56.369 --> 01:48:59.069 You're back to community and, and having this challenge that you have 01:48:59.069 --> 01:49:01.709 to fulfill when then you're back to the hunting and gathering group. 01:49:01.709 --> 01:49:05.279 You're back to the group of lads going out there with the spear, you know, 01:49:05.279 --> 01:49:08.729 and there's an older one trying to keep them safe, but also enough risk 01:49:08.729 --> 01:49:10.079 that they can actually get the kill. 01:49:10.259 --> 01:49:13.439 There's the girls out there gathering and it's very dangerous. 01:49:13.439 --> 01:49:14.939 They've got to dodge lines while they do it. 01:49:14.939 --> 01:49:19.109 They've got a track, they've got to know that this plant is poisonous and looks 01:49:19.109 --> 01:49:23.069 exactly like that one that isn't and beyond absolute high alert with that 01:49:23.069 --> 01:49:24.759 while keeping all the kids safe and da da. 01:49:25.289 --> 01:49:27.029 All of this takes a lot of communication. 01:49:27.209 --> 01:49:28.199 Communication takes drive. 01:49:28.199 --> 01:49:32.489 So it is just really interesting that you, you ended up actually, I think answering 01:49:32.489 --> 01:49:34.199 the question of what, what do we do? 01:49:34.199 --> 01:49:39.629 Which is go reach out to an escape room if, if, if you are that mom 01:49:40.589 --> 01:49:43.404 whose son can't come out the basement. 01:49:44.829 --> 01:49:48.909 Perhaps you could do worse than to look up who's your local live action 01:49:48.909 --> 01:49:52.059 role play group and who's your It's, it's, I I mean, it, it is, 01:49:53.079 --> 01:49:58.089 Paul Illingworth: there is, it's, it's something that, that escape rooms can 01:49:58.089 --> 01:50:03.009 be played by, by kids young as seven years old and really, really enjoy it. 01:50:03.519 --> 01:50:06.879 And we've seen a, over the five years of running that business, we've seen 01:50:06.879 --> 01:50:10.209 multiple families that every time we'd have a new game, they'd play all our 01:50:10.209 --> 01:50:13.269 games, the whole family would come, they play all our games, we get a new one. 01:50:13.719 --> 01:50:17.109 They would hassle us when you open in a new game so we can come back and play. 01:50:17.499 --> 01:50:19.839 You've convinced me, I'm gonna take my kids to an escape route. 01:50:20.259 --> 01:50:23.739 They were, they were treating it as community, as a child. 01:50:23.739 --> 01:50:24.309 Yeah, no, 01:50:24.339 --> 01:50:27.069 Rupert Isaacson: you, you've, you've totally hit the nail on the head here. 01:50:27.069 --> 01:50:30.369 I think Paul, because I, I did a, I did a podcast a few months 01:50:30.369 --> 01:50:34.129 back with a, a really interesting lady called Lainey Liberty, who. 01:50:34.984 --> 01:50:39.274 Took a year off to travel with her son and they just never went back. 01:50:39.544 --> 01:50:41.614 And they now run a business together. 01:50:41.714 --> 01:50:44.714 And what they do is get, they do board games, they run gaming cafes. 01:50:44.719 --> 01:50:44.899 Mm-hmm. 01:50:45.119 --> 01:50:45.539 Paul Illingworth: Mm-hmm. 01:50:46.124 --> 01:50:46.274 Yeah. 01:50:46.274 --> 01:50:46.394 And it's 01:50:46.394 --> 01:50:46.934 Rupert Isaacson: very similar. 01:50:46.939 --> 01:50:48.434 It's, it's, it's, it's the same thing. 01:50:48.584 --> 01:50:48.824 Yeah. 01:50:48.854 --> 01:50:49.184 Paul Illingworth: Yeah. 01:50:49.574 --> 01:50:51.134 It's exactly the same thing. 01:50:51.584 --> 01:50:55.394 It's getting the kids, you know, if, if you get kids that, that are 01:50:55.394 --> 01:50:58.574 not sporty and there's a lot of kids that aren't sure, the majority of 01:50:58.664 --> 01:51:00.344 them I think are not sporty at all. 01:51:00.734 --> 01:51:03.854 And you're not gonna get involved with that type of community. 01:51:03.854 --> 01:51:05.054 Well pick something else. 01:51:05.264 --> 01:51:05.534 Yes. 01:51:05.564 --> 01:51:08.324 Playing chess, you know, checkers, board games. 01:51:09.944 --> 01:51:12.914 What we do here with friends, you know, we live in the countryside. 01:51:12.914 --> 01:51:13.994 We are miles from anywhere. 01:51:13.994 --> 01:51:14.294 Right. 01:51:14.504 --> 01:51:16.544 But what do we do Every month? 01:51:16.544 --> 01:51:19.094 There's six or eight of us all get together, couples, 01:51:19.094 --> 01:51:20.174 and we play board games. 01:51:20.444 --> 01:51:20.624 Yeah. 01:51:20.624 --> 01:51:23.984 We sit round, we drink wine, we play board games, we talk. 01:51:24.044 --> 01:51:24.914 It's community. 01:51:25.304 --> 01:51:25.694 Rupert Isaacson: Yeah. 01:51:25.694 --> 01:51:29.354 Lainey convinced me, she said play board games with the kids if we game changer. 01:51:29.359 --> 01:51:29.419 Yeah. 01:51:29.419 --> 01:51:29.579 And. 01:51:30.719 --> 01:51:34.169 I, I hadn't been, you know, I thought, oh, I don't need to do that. 01:51:34.169 --> 01:51:35.309 You know, we're out with the horses. 01:51:35.309 --> 01:51:37.169 We do, and I thought, no, she's right. 01:51:37.199 --> 01:51:40.379 And we started and it completely changed the family dynamic. 01:51:40.649 --> 01:51:40.889 Paul Illingworth: Mm-hmm. 01:51:41.459 --> 01:51:41.609 Rupert Isaacson: It does. 01:51:42.279 --> 01:51:45.819 So, so that is, listen to your Auntie Paul moms. 01:51:45.819 --> 01:51:45.879 Yeah. 01:51:45.979 --> 01:51:46.339 Paul Illingworth: There you go. 01:51:46.429 --> 01:51:50.269 Rupert Isaacson: Start going to the escape rooms together and maybe, maybe 01:51:50.269 --> 01:51:54.749 your son can escape the room that he's in and escape into somewhere. 01:51:55.169 --> 01:51:56.579 It's gotta start somewhere. 01:51:56.609 --> 01:52:00.149 I love that because, you know, you know me, I'm such a proponent of nature. 01:52:00.569 --> 01:52:00.869 Yeah. 01:52:00.929 --> 01:52:02.639 But not everyone has access. 01:52:02.909 --> 01:52:06.929 And you also know how it is in, in Texas for example, you've gotta own that land. 01:52:06.929 --> 01:52:08.549 There's not much public land out there. 01:52:08.609 --> 01:52:08.759 Paul Illingworth: No. 01:52:09.189 --> 01:52:09.399 Rupert Isaacson: And it's 01:52:09.399 --> 01:52:11.139 Paul Illingworth: also too hot a lot of the time. 01:52:11.139 --> 01:52:16.209 It is too hot Wanna go out, you know, in Texas, but other places not necessarily. 01:52:16.269 --> 01:52:16.839 There you go. 01:52:17.169 --> 01:52:18.189 Go find the and only get all Well, you 01:52:18.854 --> 01:52:19.374 Rupert Isaacson: answered the question. 01:52:19.734 --> 01:52:22.494 I I thought we were just gonna go round philosophical circle. 01:52:22.989 --> 01:52:24.279 But that's so Paul, isn't it? 01:52:24.279 --> 01:52:27.129 It's like, well actually Rupert, here's a solution. 01:52:27.369 --> 01:52:28.869 I'm like, well Paul, actually 01:52:28.869 --> 01:52:30.849 Paul Illingworth: you have Well the thing is that if I'd have mentioned that right 01:52:30.849 --> 01:52:33.429 at the beginning, you know, they, we'd have had nothing to talk about for that. 01:52:33.429 --> 01:52:33.534 That is true. 01:52:33.534 --> 01:52:34.359 For the next two hours. 01:52:34.359 --> 01:52:35.409 So there we go. 01:52:35.439 --> 01:52:36.339 We got there in the end. 01:52:36.699 --> 01:52:37.419 Got an escape room. 01:52:37.869 --> 01:52:40.059 Rupert Isaacson: We, alright, well, I think, let, let's end on that note. 01:52:40.059 --> 01:52:43.269 I've, I've got to go get horses off the hill before it gets dark. 01:52:43.599 --> 01:52:46.389 Paul Illingworth: I've gotta go mo mo mow another 20 acres. 01:52:46.389 --> 01:52:47.139 So here we go. 01:52:47.139 --> 01:52:47.679 Rupert Isaacson: All right. 01:52:47.684 --> 01:52:48.429 In the hot sun. 01:52:48.549 --> 01:52:48.939 All right. 01:52:48.939 --> 01:52:48.999 The 01:52:49.134 --> 01:52:49.494 Paul Illingworth: hot sun. 01:52:50.304 --> 01:52:50.664 Rupert Isaacson: Alright. 01:52:51.354 --> 01:52:52.104 Paul Illingworth: You take care. 01:52:52.284 --> 01:52:52.644 Rupert Isaacson: Alright. 01:52:52.644 --> 01:52:55.524 I, I'm, I'm, I'm, I'm off to an escape room with my kids. 01:52:55.609 --> 01:52:56.659 Paul Illingworth: Alright, good luck. 01:52:56.659 --> 01:52:56.669 Alright, 01:52:56.814 --> 01:52:57.174 Rupert Isaacson: Cheers. 01:52:57.444 --> 01:52:57.714 Bye. 01:52:58.134 --> 01:52:58.494 Bye. 01:52:58.671 --> 01:53:02.051 Rupert Isaacson: I hope you enjoyed today's conversation as much as I did. 01:53:02.881 --> 01:53:06.631 If you did, please help us to make more. 01:53:06.631 --> 01:53:10.511 Please like, subscribe, tell a friend, give us a thumbs up. 01:53:10.961 --> 01:53:16.211 If you'd like to support us on Patreon, please go to my website, rupertisakson. 01:53:16.531 --> 01:53:16.881 com. 01:53:17.081 --> 01:53:20.261 And if you'd like to find out about our certification courses with. 01:53:20.651 --> 01:53:24.601 autism, education, horsemanship, everyday shamanism. 01:53:24.661 --> 01:53:27.001 There's a whole range of cool stuff. 01:53:27.421 --> 01:53:30.451 Putting a show together like this is not an easy task. 01:53:31.701 --> 01:53:36.631 If you'd like to support us, please consider going to our Patreon page 01:53:37.141 --> 01:53:38.371 and showing us some love there. 01:53:39.011 --> 01:53:44.461 Even the smallest donation, it really helps us to keep the good content coming. 01:53:44.841 --> 01:53:46.771 So go to rupertisakson. 01:53:46.811 --> 01:53:49.396 com and click on the Patreon link. 01:53:50.566 --> 01:53:52.476 Not to mention our excellent merch. 01:53:52.536 --> 01:53:57.616 Please go to our shop and check out some of our really cool 01:53:57.626 --> 01:53:59.016 rock and roll themed merch. 01:53:59.056 --> 01:54:00.856 T shirts, hoodies, all that sort of thing. 01:54:01.376 --> 01:54:02.446 rupertisatson. 01:54:02.486 --> 01:54:03.346 com, it's all there. 01:54:03.406 --> 01:54:06.956 I can't wait for our next guest and also to meet you there. 01:54:07.756 --> 01:54:11.546 In the meantime, remember, live free. 01:54:12.476 --> 01:54:13.026 Ride free. 01:54:16.046 --> 01:54:17.726 Welcome back to Live Free, ride Free. 01:54:17.726 --> 01:54:22.106 I've got a very, very dear friend, old friend, um, Paul Illingworth here. 01:54:22.676 --> 01:54:28.736 Um, Paul is someone I've known for quite a while and who has done many, many, 01:54:28.766 --> 01:54:30.656 many interesting things in his life. 01:54:31.106 --> 01:54:35.096 Um, and one of the reasons I asked him to come on was he 01:54:35.096 --> 01:54:40.316 really started from a place that 01:54:42.446 --> 01:54:43.526 I wouldn't say disadvantaged. 01:54:43.526 --> 01:54:47.066 I wouldn't say advantaged, but I'd say without an, an awful lot of 01:54:47.066 --> 01:54:50.336 support and made his way in the world. 01:54:50.516 --> 01:54:56.966 Um, and has actually helped quite a few people along the way as well, and has 01:54:56.966 --> 01:55:01.856 been a great supporter of our work with Horse Boy Foundation and the work we've 01:55:01.856 --> 01:55:03.506 done with autism and that sort of thing. 01:55:04.016 --> 01:55:07.106 Um, big guy, big Heart, um, big story. 01:55:08.711 --> 01:55:12.761 What I'd quite like to frame this story against though is, is we, I 01:55:12.761 --> 01:55:15.281 think we all know that we're dealing with a bit of an epidemic at the 01:55:15.281 --> 01:55:18.911 moment of lost young men, lost boys. 01:55:19.181 --> 01:55:23.201 And this is something that's kind of crept up on us, um, over the last 01:55:25.271 --> 01:55:27.911 10 15, but it's become more acute since COVID. 01:55:28.331 --> 01:55:34.781 And in the work that I do, I get a lot of moms who have say three kids, 01:55:35.321 --> 01:55:40.001 um, daughters doing great, um, you know, one at one married and off in 01:55:40.001 --> 01:55:45.551 the career, one at college and getting her masters and a son age 21 to 25 01:55:45.551 --> 01:55:46.781 who can't come out of the basement. 01:55:47.741 --> 01:55:49.661 And this never used to be the case. 01:55:50.021 --> 01:55:54.761 And it occurred to me, you know, while we were doing this uh, podcast, you know, 01:55:54.761 --> 01:56:02.081 why is this, and friends of mine that I've known who could have been lost boys. 01:56:03.071 --> 01:56:05.441 Um, but who went out into world to find themselves? 01:56:05.741 --> 01:56:07.961 Can we examine this question a little bit? 01:56:07.961 --> 01:56:12.191 How do you, how do you find your way to this kind of self-actualization? 01:56:12.671 --> 01:56:14.951 Um, it's a, it's a pressing question at the moment. 01:56:15.281 --> 01:56:17.081 So Paul, thanks for coming on the show. 01:56:17.291 --> 01:56:21.131 Can you tell the listeners and viewers a little bit about who 01:56:21.131 --> 01:56:22.691 you are and what you do currently? 01:56:22.691 --> 01:56:24.311 And then we'll start with how you got there. 01:56:25.241 --> 01:56:25.751 Paul Illingworth: Sure, yeah. 01:56:25.901 --> 01:56:27.491 Well, my name is Paul Linworth. 01:56:27.521 --> 01:56:30.191 Um, I currently live in Texas. 01:56:30.341 --> 01:56:33.401 I've been over here for 27 years now. 01:56:34.151 --> 01:56:39.821 Um, I moved over here back in 1998 when I was working in the oil and gas business. 01:56:39.821 --> 01:56:43.271 I'm now actually retired, um, and I moved from Aberdeen. 01:56:44.411 --> 01:56:50.471 To Houston in 1998, uh, to start a business there, um, for a very 01:56:50.471 --> 01:56:53.891 good friend of mine who company was actually based in Singapore. 01:56:54.671 --> 01:56:56.201 Um, so I came over here. 01:56:56.261 --> 01:57:00.431 I was supposed to, to initially come to Texas for three months to get the 01:57:00.431 --> 01:57:03.311 business started, then go back to Aberdeen and carry on what I was doing 01:57:03.311 --> 01:57:06.131 over there and things kind of snowballed. 01:57:06.281 --> 01:57:11.321 Um, I was very, very lucky and that having made the decision that I did 01:57:11.321 --> 01:57:15.821 wanna move to Texas, that I managed to, um, to get myself a green card pre nine 01:57:15.821 --> 01:57:20.051 11, which is, uh, which happened very quickly, and now it takes about 10 years. 01:57:20.471 --> 01:57:20.771 Wow. 01:57:20.981 --> 01:57:25.391 Um, yeah, it's, uh, it's taken at least 10 years to get a green card. 01:57:25.901 --> 01:57:32.171 Um, and then I lived in Houston, um, for 14 years and 01:57:32.171 --> 01:57:33.641 then moved out to the country. 01:57:33.641 --> 01:57:37.751 I live, uh, about 30, 40 miles north, uh, northeast of 01:57:37.751 --> 01:57:39.491 Austin, out in the countryside. 01:57:39.491 --> 01:57:41.171 I've got a 20 acre ranch here. 01:57:41.891 --> 01:57:42.971 Uh, I continued. 01:57:44.426 --> 01:57:47.516 Houston for a while after we did move out of the Houston area 01:57:47.516 --> 01:57:48.956 because I was still working there. 01:57:49.676 --> 01:57:54.596 Um, and then I finally retired from the oil and gas business in 2019. 01:57:54.926 --> 01:57:59.726 Uh, ran my own business in Austin until about a couple of months 01:57:59.726 --> 01:58:01.046 ago when we sold the business. 01:58:01.046 --> 01:58:03.446 So no, I am officially retired. 01:58:04.226 --> 01:58:07.436 Rupert Isaacson: So you, you make yourself sound like a bloke who sort of just 01:58:07.436 --> 01:58:09.446 kind of climbed the corporate ladder. 01:58:11.516 --> 01:58:14.276 It's anything but the case. 01:58:14.636 --> 01:58:18.026 Um, and just so that listeners get a bit of an idea, while I've 01:58:18.026 --> 01:58:20.936 known Paul, um, 'cause we, I used to live in Austin as well. 01:58:21.356 --> 01:58:26.486 Um, I've known him running a, uh, skydiving business, which 01:58:26.486 --> 01:58:31.046 is keeping people alive while you chuck 'em out of airplanes. 01:58:31.046 --> 01:58:31.826 Not easy. 01:58:32.096 --> 01:58:32.156 Yeah. 01:58:32.156 --> 01:58:38.516 And I've also known you run, um, a series of escape rooms, um, as well, even when 01:58:38.516 --> 01:58:42.206 you didn't have to, even when you'd retired from the oil and gas business. 01:58:42.266 --> 01:58:45.326 Because one of the things about Paul, ladies and gentlemen, he gets bored 01:58:45.326 --> 01:58:49.616 very fast and he can't, you know, he can't, he can't abide not having 01:58:49.616 --> 01:58:53.876 something to do and he tends to be very successful at, at what he does. 01:58:54.206 --> 01:58:55.796 Before we start with how you got. 01:58:56.426 --> 01:59:00.896 Up through the non-corporate ranks of, of, of your, of your career. 01:59:01.406 --> 01:59:08.576 Why do you think it is, Paul, that when you pick up a business, you make it work? 01:59:08.606 --> 01:59:12.446 I've only ever seen you make them work, and I've often watched you kind of a bit 01:59:12.446 --> 01:59:13.916 awestruck and go, what, what's he got? 01:59:13.916 --> 01:59:16.136 What is this Midas touch that Paul's got? 01:59:16.141 --> 01:59:17.576 What, what, what do you put it down to? 01:59:18.566 --> 01:59:20.366 Paul Illingworth: I don't, I don't actually think I do have a 01:59:20.366 --> 01:59:24.056 Midas touch at all because I've. 01:59:24.536 --> 01:59:28.016 Over the, over the years I've been involved in four, maybe 01:59:28.016 --> 01:59:29.456 five different businesses. 01:59:29.516 --> 01:59:35.846 Um, the skydiving business was very, very much an opportunistic thing whereby my 01:59:35.846 --> 01:59:39.026 wife Jen, uh, and myself were sky divers. 01:59:39.026 --> 01:59:42.866 I started jumping when I was in the military originally, but we got 01:59:42.866 --> 01:59:47.816 into, into sports skydiving, uh, in the early two thousands in Texas. 01:59:47.816 --> 01:59:50.906 The weather's a lot better over here, so obviously it's, it's a lot easier to 01:59:50.906 --> 01:59:52.826 skydive than it was living in Scotland. 01:59:53.486 --> 01:59:58.766 And an opportunity came up to buy a drop zone that was very poorly 01:59:58.766 --> 02:00:01.436 managed, not particularly well run. 02:00:02.006 --> 02:00:06.776 And the guy that, the guy and the girl that owned it, um, were ready 02:00:06.776 --> 02:00:08.696 to leave and go do something else. 02:00:08.696 --> 02:00:13.886 So, um, we could, we, the, the wife and I could just simply see the 02:00:13.886 --> 02:00:18.326 potential there that we could really turn it into something special. 02:00:19.196 --> 02:00:20.096 Uh, and we did. 02:00:20.801 --> 02:00:22.301 We invested a bit more money in. 02:00:22.301 --> 02:00:23.891 We bought another couple of airplanes. 02:00:23.891 --> 02:00:25.901 We both got ourselves certified as part Love. 02:00:25.901 --> 02:00:25.961 How? 02:00:26.231 --> 02:00:26.651 Oh, and we 02:00:26.651 --> 02:00:27.546 Rupert Isaacson: bought another couple of airplanes. 02:00:28.301 --> 02:00:30.186 Paul Illingworth: Yeah, well, just as you do, just like, like, 02:00:30.286 --> 02:00:32.531 Rupert Isaacson: you know, I'm actually nipping out to get one now, Paul. 02:00:32.531 --> 02:00:33.041 Do you want me to Yeah, right. 02:00:33.186 --> 02:00:33.266 Yeah. 02:00:33.326 --> 02:00:33.986 Put up for you as well. 02:00:34.331 --> 02:00:34.451 Paul Illingworth: Yeah. 02:00:34.451 --> 02:00:37.691 We're not, you know, we're not talking about Cessna citations or, 02:00:37.781 --> 02:00:41.831 you know, billion dollar airplanes, skydiving airplanes tend to be at 02:00:41.831 --> 02:00:44.861 the bottom end of the barrel as far as airplanes are concerned. 02:00:44.861 --> 02:00:47.531 So it wasn't really terribly difficult and we didn't have 02:00:47.531 --> 02:00:48.731 to put a lot of money in it. 02:00:48.731 --> 02:00:52.451 But, so to start off with, we just started very, very small and we built 02:00:52.451 --> 02:00:56.621 things up slowly and, and, you know, over the 13 years we owned the business, we 02:00:56.621 --> 02:00:59.891 turned it into a very, very successful business with a lot of hard work. 02:00:59.921 --> 02:01:02.706 I mean, it was hard, Rupert, I remember, I remember it stressing you. 02:01:02.736 --> 02:01:08.111 Yeah, I was working, I was working as the CEO of an oil and gas service 02:01:08.111 --> 02:01:10.511 company, spending about 200 days a year. 02:01:10.886 --> 02:01:14.906 Traveling overseas, working in business development, and we were 02:01:14.906 --> 02:01:18.476 also running the skydiving business that was open seven days a week. 02:01:18.686 --> 02:01:23.456 Um, I would come, we would travel out to the skydiving business at the weekends. 02:01:23.456 --> 02:01:27.176 We had a manager out there that ran it during the week, and we'd be, 02:01:27.356 --> 02:01:29.666 my wife was a skydiving instructor. 02:01:29.756 --> 02:01:31.826 Uh, and I would be flying the airplanes. 02:01:31.826 --> 02:01:33.476 You know, we work seven days a week. 02:01:33.536 --> 02:01:34.586 That's all there is to it. 02:01:34.886 --> 02:01:35.096 Yeah. 02:01:35.186 --> 02:01:36.056 You know, and then. 02:01:36.131 --> 02:01:36.251 After. 02:01:37.316 --> 02:01:38.206 It's just putting in the hours. 02:01:38.771 --> 02:01:40.001 It's just putting the hours in. 02:01:40.001 --> 02:01:41.141 It's as simple as that. 02:01:41.201 --> 02:01:45.941 I mean, I'll be quite honest with you, I didn't get where I was in this position in 02:01:45.941 --> 02:01:49.451 the world today by sitting around reading a newspaper and watching television. 02:01:49.631 --> 02:01:54.221 Um, you know, you've got, you've gotta be prepared to work hard 02:01:54.221 --> 02:01:55.331 and that's all there is to it. 02:01:55.331 --> 02:01:57.311 But it's finding the thing to do. 02:01:57.401 --> 02:02:01.541 And as, as you mentioned, you know, the escape room business as well, that 02:02:01.661 --> 02:02:03.461 Jen and I love doing escape rooms. 02:02:03.461 --> 02:02:04.211 And it's the same thing. 02:02:04.211 --> 02:02:05.051 We love skydiving. 02:02:05.051 --> 02:02:07.331 We bought skydiving business, we love escape rooms. 02:02:07.571 --> 02:02:10.811 And escape room business came up for sale that was 30 minutes drive 02:02:10.811 --> 02:02:12.281 from our house here in Austin. 02:02:12.881 --> 02:02:15.431 We went and had a look at it, looked at the books, thought I 02:02:15.431 --> 02:02:18.581 think we can make something outta this and actually do better. 02:02:19.061 --> 02:02:19.961 And that's what we did. 02:02:20.951 --> 02:02:24.251 But uh, you know, it's almost like, you know, they say. 02:02:25.226 --> 02:02:25.736 What, what? 02:02:25.976 --> 02:02:27.626 What's the best thing about owning a boat? 02:02:27.656 --> 02:02:30.506 Well, the best thing about owning a boat is when you sell it, and 02:02:30.506 --> 02:02:32.006 it's a bit like owning a business. 02:02:32.006 --> 02:02:34.766 You've gotta have an exit strategy if you own a business. 02:02:34.766 --> 02:02:37.496 We had an exit strategy for the skydiving business. 02:02:37.496 --> 02:02:40.736 We had an exit strategy for the escape prune business. 02:02:40.976 --> 02:02:42.116 What, what those strategies? 02:02:42.476 --> 02:02:45.776 Well, it was basically just simply get to a certain point in terms of 02:02:45.776 --> 02:02:47.576 income and, and own the business. 02:02:47.576 --> 02:02:50.966 For so many years, the skydiving business was supposed to be 10 years. 02:02:52.436 --> 02:02:54.986 Uh, X number of dollars of, of profit. 02:02:55.676 --> 02:02:58.406 Uh, we ended up owning the business for 13 years. 02:02:58.406 --> 02:03:01.016 It just took a little bit longer to sell it than we expected. 02:03:01.376 --> 02:03:03.776 The Escape Room business, we had a five year plan. 02:03:04.406 --> 02:03:07.586 Uh, we hit all the targets on the escape room business despite the 02:03:07.586 --> 02:03:10.796 fact that we bought it a year before COVID, where we bought it six months 02:03:10.796 --> 02:03:12.656 before COVID actually happened. 02:03:13.346 --> 02:03:17.816 Um, but very quickly we recovered after COVID expanded the business as well. 02:03:17.816 --> 02:03:20.876 Took a punt that things would come back strong, and they did. 02:03:21.386 --> 02:03:22.616 We had a five year plan. 02:03:22.616 --> 02:03:24.266 We sold the business. 02:03:25.226 --> 02:03:30.626 If you look at COVID and when COVID sort of started to ease off a little 02:03:30.626 --> 02:03:33.926 bit, we sold the business five years from then, three months ago. 02:03:34.466 --> 02:03:34.646 Okay. 02:03:35.906 --> 02:03:39.476 So, you know, I, I've been lucky, Rupert. 02:03:39.476 --> 02:03:43.016 It's not just, it's not, but you've gotta be prepared to work hard. 02:03:43.016 --> 02:03:45.836 You've gotta seize an opportunity when you see it. 02:03:45.836 --> 02:03:47.006 And never be afraid. 02:03:47.546 --> 02:03:49.676 Never be afraid to go and do something. 02:03:49.676 --> 02:03:50.936 That's really what it comes down to. 02:03:50.936 --> 02:03:52.676 Rupert Isaacson: Well, let, let's talk about never be afraid. 02:03:52.676 --> 02:03:56.876 So again, for listeners, um, you will have read the show notes so you 02:03:56.876 --> 02:04:01.946 actually know the sort of slightly more swashbuckling story that, that, that 02:04:01.976 --> 02:04:03.926 than Paul is giving away right now. 02:04:03.926 --> 02:04:06.296 But we're gonna go back and we're gonna swash and buckle a bit. 02:04:06.836 --> 02:04:11.306 Um, you know, Paul, I also know you as an aviator. 02:04:11.306 --> 02:04:13.346 I also know you as Ex Special Forces. 02:04:13.346 --> 02:04:17.966 I also know you as Ex Merchant Navy, and I know you, you know, and all of these 02:04:19.436 --> 02:04:27.326 tough, uh, envi environments to come up through Rugby League, in which there's a 02:04:27.326 --> 02:04:29.276 ton of fear and okay, you're a big guy. 02:04:30.641 --> 02:04:34.511 You know, whenever I'm referring to Paul to friends, I automatically 02:04:34.511 --> 02:04:36.251 say, big Paul, you're a big guy. 02:04:36.251 --> 02:04:37.631 But that's being big's. 02:04:37.631 --> 02:04:39.551 Not, you know how it is. 02:04:39.551 --> 02:04:41.531 It's not the dog in the fight, it's the fight and the dog. 02:04:42.011 --> 02:04:47.681 Um, you've had to face an awful lot of fear in your life. 02:04:48.281 --> 02:04:50.351 So let's start back now. 02:04:50.921 --> 02:04:52.691 Let's start with you as a boy. 02:04:52.991 --> 02:04:53.981 Where are you born? 02:04:54.101 --> 02:04:55.121 How'd you grow up? 02:04:55.781 --> 02:05:00.251 And then how do you end up going from there to the military? 02:05:00.311 --> 02:05:01.901 And then let's take it from there. 02:05:02.471 --> 02:05:02.921 Paul Illingworth: Okay. 02:05:03.311 --> 02:05:09.461 Um, I was actually born in Australia, um, but at a very, very early age 02:05:09.461 --> 02:05:11.201 my parents moved back to London. 02:05:11.531 --> 02:05:14.831 Um, so let's talk about my father for a start. 02:05:15.011 --> 02:05:20.591 My father joined the Scots guards, um, in 1936 when he was 16 years old. 02:05:20.591 --> 02:05:21.756 So well before can tell us us what the 02:05:21.756 --> 02:05:24.071 Rupert Isaacson: Scots guards are, because not every listener's gonna know. 02:05:24.191 --> 02:05:24.761 Paul Illingworth: Okay. 02:05:24.761 --> 02:05:26.321 They, they, they. 02:05:27.026 --> 02:05:29.906 So there are, there are, I think there's five or six 02:05:29.906 --> 02:05:31.976 guards regiments, um, in the uk. 02:05:31.976 --> 02:05:35.066 They're basically the guys that wear the red tunics and have the big 02:05:35.306 --> 02:05:38.876 hats, the big black hats, and they do the guard at Buckingham Palace. 02:05:38.876 --> 02:05:40.376 So those are what the guards do, 02:05:40.796 --> 02:05:42.476 Rupert Isaacson: but they're also crack troops. 02:05:42.656 --> 02:05:43.511 When it comes combat. 02:05:43.511 --> 02:05:43.871 They're 02:05:44.246 --> 02:05:45.986 Paul Illingworth: very, very much crack, crack troops. 02:05:45.986 --> 02:05:48.926 They're always at the front of, of pretty much any battle. 02:05:49.496 --> 02:05:54.806 Uh, my dad joined in 1936, um, but he actually started work 02:05:54.806 --> 02:05:56.516 at 10 years old down the mines. 02:05:56.516 --> 02:05:59.606 He was a Yorkshire born lad in Castleford in Yorkshire, 02:05:59.606 --> 02:06:00.866 which is in northern England. 02:06:01.316 --> 02:06:04.106 And at 10 years old, he was working down the coal mines, 02:06:04.466 --> 02:06:05.246 Rupert Isaacson: which is amazing. 02:06:05.246 --> 02:06:08.456 And I'm thinking about my son Ian, who you know, little man. 02:06:08.516 --> 02:06:09.416 He's 10 now. 02:06:10.076 --> 02:06:10.436 Paul Illingworth: And 02:06:10.436 --> 02:06:12.986 Rupert Isaacson: he was just on the field helping me pull rag what? 02:06:13.316 --> 02:06:16.901 And I'm feeling a bit guilty about, you know, asking him to, you know, help me. 02:06:17.181 --> 02:06:21.656 And now you say 10, your dad was down the mines in York back then. 02:06:21.716 --> 02:06:21.776 Wow. 02:06:21.861 --> 02:06:22.041 He was, he was 02:06:22.041 --> 02:06:24.716 Paul Illingworth: working, yeah, he was working down the mines, which 02:06:24.716 --> 02:06:27.656 was a hard thing to do because his father was actually killed when he 02:06:27.656 --> 02:06:29.396 was three years old in a mine crash. 02:06:29.546 --> 02:06:29.996 Okay. 02:06:30.116 --> 02:06:34.496 So he was raised by his aunt, um, his mother. 02:06:34.796 --> 02:06:39.446 I think my grandmother on my father's side died when he was a very, very early age. 02:06:39.446 --> 02:06:42.056 I'm not really too sure, but he was basically brought up 02:06:42.056 --> 02:06:44.756 on his own, um, by my aunt. 02:06:45.596 --> 02:06:48.056 He joined the Scots guards in 1936. 02:06:48.056 --> 02:06:50.036 I said before the second World War started. 02:06:50.426 --> 02:06:54.146 I don't really know why, other than the fact that he wanted to get out the mines. 02:06:54.146 --> 02:06:55.826 And the earliest you could join the Army, army was six. 02:06:55.826 --> 02:06:56.431 Why not a 02:06:56.431 --> 02:06:57.386 Rupert Isaacson: Yorkshire line regimen? 02:06:57.416 --> 02:06:57.566 Yeah. 02:06:57.566 --> 02:06:58.796 Why, why the s Scott scars. 02:06:58.796 --> 02:06:59.846 He's not, wasn't Scottish. 02:06:59.846 --> 02:07:00.656 And you know, 02:07:01.556 --> 02:07:01.976 Paul Illingworth: that. 02:07:02.396 --> 02:07:04.346 That I honestly don't know, Rupert. 02:07:04.346 --> 02:07:05.216 I mean, I really don't. 02:07:05.216 --> 02:07:09.446 Yeah, I think he, he probably just headed down to London, um, at 16 02:07:09.446 --> 02:07:13.766 with the idea of doing something and, and the Scots guards took him on. 02:07:13.766 --> 02:07:14.781 I And you have 02:07:14.781 --> 02:07:15.446 Rupert Isaacson: to be tall Right? 02:07:15.446 --> 02:07:16.166 To go in the guard. 02:07:16.166 --> 02:07:17.126 So he was probably a tall, you gotta 02:07:17.126 --> 02:07:19.046 Paul Illingworth: be, you gotta be at least six foot. 02:07:19.136 --> 02:07:19.436 Rupert Isaacson: Yeah. 02:07:19.441 --> 02:07:19.541 Yeah. 02:07:19.886 --> 02:07:21.716 Paul Illingworth: I think they've dropped that requirement now. 02:07:21.716 --> 02:07:24.506 But in those days you had to be six foot and my dad was six two. 02:07:24.506 --> 02:07:26.036 Pretty much the same as I was. 02:07:26.726 --> 02:07:29.936 Um, yeah, so he was a pretty big guy as, as well. 02:07:30.416 --> 02:07:35.276 Um, and you know, he was, he was in the Scots guards, he went to North 02:07:35.276 --> 02:07:37.781 Africa, um, with the eight farming. 02:07:38.936 --> 02:07:41.006 During the war is where my grandfather was 02:07:41.006 --> 02:07:41.306 Rupert Isaacson: too. 02:07:41.666 --> 02:07:41.966 Was he? 02:07:42.116 --> 02:07:42.506 Yeah. 02:07:43.076 --> 02:07:46.646 Paul Illingworth: So he was, he was part of the eighth Army and, and then he ended 02:07:46.646 --> 02:07:51.956 up, um, being recruited into the Lrd gs, which is a long range desert group. 02:07:51.956 --> 02:07:57.656 And those, those guys were the four, the forerunners to the formation of the SAS. 02:07:58.226 --> 02:08:02.336 Um, so the lard, dgs, long Range Desert Group, they basically used to go and 02:08:02.336 --> 02:08:05.846 scout things out in North Africa, which is where they were formed. 02:08:05.846 --> 02:08:08.186 And then the SAS were formed in North Africa. 02:08:08.756 --> 02:08:10.526 I think it was in 1942. 02:08:10.526 --> 02:08:12.266 I can't remember exactly what the date was. 02:08:12.896 --> 02:08:16.076 Um, so he was a career soldier pretty much. 02:08:16.166 --> 02:08:19.766 Um, he stayed in the Scots guards, uh. 02:08:20.441 --> 02:08:27.251 Until, I think it was 1948 or 1950, he got injured pretty badly at Monte Casino 02:08:27.311 --> 02:08:30.701 during the Second World War when they were fighting coming up through Italy. 02:08:31.481 --> 02:08:34.571 Um, and he took some time off then and he went back in again. 02:08:34.571 --> 02:08:37.601 But eventually he was medically discharged because he took some 02:08:37.601 --> 02:08:40.811 shrapnel in his back and never really recovered properly from it. 02:08:41.741 --> 02:08:45.521 Um, but very, very much, um, an army man. 02:08:45.881 --> 02:08:47.651 That's, that, you know, that's what he was. 02:08:48.221 --> 02:08:52.751 Um, my mother also lied about her age during the Second World War and ended 02:08:52.751 --> 02:08:54.491 up being what they call an AKA girl. 02:08:54.491 --> 02:09:00.251 So in London, she was, uh, firing the, the guns at the German aircraft that 02:09:00.251 --> 02:09:01.781 were coming over a bomb in London. 02:09:02.531 --> 02:09:06.881 Um, and they met in London somewhere around about 1950. 02:09:06.881 --> 02:09:10.331 I'm not too sure exactly when it was, but that's when my parents got together 02:09:12.851 --> 02:09:14.201 Rupert Isaacson: and, uh, okay. 02:09:14.201 --> 02:09:14.801 So. 02:09:16.196 --> 02:09:17.726 How did they end up going to Australia? 02:09:17.726 --> 02:09:20.391 How did they end up having you and then you come back? 02:09:20.531 --> 02:09:20.751 My 02:09:20.751 --> 02:09:20.871 Paul Illingworth: dad. 02:09:21.021 --> 02:09:21.311 Okay. 02:09:21.941 --> 02:09:27.251 My dad got into the building business, um, with my uncle, 02:09:27.251 --> 02:09:28.871 who was my mother's brother. 02:09:29.411 --> 02:09:32.411 Um, they got into rebuilding London. 02:09:32.411 --> 02:09:33.941 That's really what it came down to. 02:09:33.941 --> 02:09:36.581 And they, they had a pretty successful building business 02:09:36.581 --> 02:09:38.261 in London in the early fifties. 02:09:39.131 --> 02:09:42.281 Uh, and there was an opportunity because on my mother's side, there 02:09:42.281 --> 02:09:46.181 was my mother's side of the family, um, had Australian connections. 02:09:46.181 --> 02:09:48.461 'cause my grandfather went down to Australia. 02:09:48.821 --> 02:09:49.901 He was a policeman. 02:09:49.931 --> 02:09:54.431 He went down to Australia back in the, uh, the, the twenties, I think 02:09:54.431 --> 02:09:55.871 it was the twenties and the thirties. 02:09:55.871 --> 02:09:57.761 So there was family connections down there. 02:09:58.211 --> 02:10:02.651 And they decided to go to Australia to, to, because there was a lot of building 02:10:02.651 --> 02:10:04.661 going on, on the west coast in Perth. 02:10:04.991 --> 02:10:05.171 Mm-hmm. 02:10:05.231 --> 02:10:07.391 Um, so they went down, they went down there. 02:10:07.391 --> 02:10:10.061 And that's how I ended up being born down there, basically. 02:10:10.061 --> 02:10:13.961 But there was a lot going on in London and my dad felt that he really had to get 02:10:13.961 --> 02:10:18.281 back to London, you know, which was where the, the, the main thrust of business was. 02:10:18.281 --> 02:10:21.431 So that's why we moved back there when I was three months old. 02:10:22.136 --> 02:10:25.376 Rupert Isaacson: Alright, so you are then born and brought up in London 02:10:26.366 --> 02:10:26.966 Paul Illingworth: pretty much? 02:10:26.966 --> 02:10:27.266 Yep. 02:10:27.266 --> 02:10:29.816 You can, you can say that we lived in Bayswater. 02:10:29.876 --> 02:10:34.616 The earliest recollections I have, uh, of like three, four years old was 02:10:34.616 --> 02:10:37.376 living in a, a townhouse in Bayswater. 02:10:38.036 --> 02:10:44.006 Um, and we pretty much stayed there until my dad had had his first back 02:10:44.096 --> 02:10:48.746 problem, uh, which was what caused him to end up selling, having to sell 02:10:48.746 --> 02:10:50.936 his business, et cetera, et cetera. 02:10:50.996 --> 02:10:55.886 And that kind of like almost leads to the story of how we ended up 02:10:56.066 --> 02:11:02.906 living in a council house on social security with no money, uh, because 02:11:03.056 --> 02:11:04.796 he ended up losing the business. 02:11:04.886 --> 02:11:09.296 You know, I think people took advantage of him, or should I say, he was a bit 02:11:09.296 --> 02:11:12.176 too generous with the way that he was doing things and he went from having 02:11:12.176 --> 02:11:16.916 a very successful building business to nothing in a fairly short period of time. 02:11:18.101 --> 02:11:20.051 Rupert Isaacson: And being somewhat of an invalid from the Walgreens. 02:11:20.051 --> 02:11:20.471 Yes. 02:11:20.561 --> 02:11:20.921 Paul Illingworth: Yeah. 02:11:20.921 --> 02:11:21.461 As well. 02:11:21.461 --> 02:11:25.481 He ended up, he had a, um, a spinal fusion. 02:11:26.291 --> 02:11:31.001 Uh, I think the first one was in 1962 when I was six years old. 02:11:31.511 --> 02:11:34.511 Uh, and he was laid up in bed for three, four months with that. 02:11:34.511 --> 02:11:36.611 And he never really fully recovered. 02:11:36.611 --> 02:11:40.121 The spinal fusions, even nowadays, are dodgy things back in the sixties. 02:11:40.121 --> 02:11:42.791 It was just, it was horrendous, the stuff that they were doing. 02:11:43.241 --> 02:11:47.201 And he never really recovered and he never really w work was able to work again. 02:11:47.711 --> 02:11:51.551 Um, he had a second spinal fusion a couple of years later because the first 02:11:51.551 --> 02:11:53.531 one didn't take, and that was even worse. 02:11:54.131 --> 02:11:56.741 Um, and it just got to the point where he couldn't do anything. 02:11:57.011 --> 02:11:57.341 Rupert Isaacson: Right. 02:11:57.341 --> 02:12:01.511 So he went from being kind of a swashbuckling pirate, semi prior war 02:12:01.511 --> 02:12:07.871 hero to a successful entrepreneur to losing it and being an invalid 02:12:08.291 --> 02:12:08.531 Paul Illingworth: Yeah. 02:12:08.591 --> 02:12:09.761 Rupert Isaacson: With a young family. 02:12:09.971 --> 02:12:13.361 So it must have been that pretty much a big knock to his self-esteem. 02:12:13.361 --> 02:12:13.991 I would've thought 02:12:14.416 --> 02:12:15.876 Paul Illingworth: it, it was, and it, and. 02:12:16.931 --> 02:12:19.631 He was never the easiest of people to get on with. 02:12:19.631 --> 02:12:24.161 But obviously because he was in a lot of pain, um, he became very, 02:12:24.161 --> 02:12:25.751 very difficult to live with. 02:12:25.901 --> 02:12:30.161 Um, bitter perhaps, you know, to, to the point where, you know, my, I 02:12:30.161 --> 02:12:34.151 had a, uh, I have a younger sister who's four years younger than me. 02:12:34.151 --> 02:12:38.201 And, and you know, we pretty much both realized as we were growing up that the 02:12:38.201 --> 02:12:41.261 best thing to do was get out the house and spend as much time out the house as 02:12:41.261 --> 02:12:43.001 possible, which is literally what we did. 02:12:43.721 --> 02:12:48.431 Um, you know, just as my dad did at 10 years old, I got myself a 02:12:48.431 --> 02:12:50.141 paper round and started working. 02:12:50.231 --> 02:12:53.201 So at 10 years old I was doing, getting up at five o'clock in the morning. 02:12:53.201 --> 02:12:53.531 Where was that? 02:12:54.041 --> 02:12:55.496 Which part of was that was in? 02:12:55.896 --> 02:13:01.781 I was in, that was in, we moved out to the country to Hartfordshire, um, so about 02:13:01.781 --> 02:13:04.151 30 miles north of, of central London. 02:13:04.421 --> 02:13:04.451 Mm. 02:13:04.451 --> 02:13:06.641 And we moved into a council house out there. 02:13:07.376 --> 02:13:13.001 Um, so I was delivering newspapers on a, on a house estate in a place called Hoon. 02:13:13.481 --> 02:13:13.841 I know Hoist. 02:13:13.841 --> 02:13:13.961 Yeah. 02:13:13.961 --> 02:13:15.361 Which is in Har Har, you know, Hoon? 02:13:16.376 --> 02:13:16.446 Yeah, yeah. 02:13:16.446 --> 02:13:16.466 Near hitching. 02:13:16.466 --> 02:13:16.721 Yeah. 02:13:16.736 --> 02:13:17.876 Uh, yeah, that's it. 02:13:17.876 --> 02:13:18.146 Yeah. 02:13:18.151 --> 02:13:18.321 Yeah. 02:13:18.746 --> 02:13:23.576 Um, and I, you know, I, I helped with a milk round at the weekends, 02:13:23.576 --> 02:13:26.636 but, but seven days a week, no matter what the weather was doing, I was up 02:13:26.636 --> 02:13:30.866 delivering newspapers and, you know, my mom and dad didn't have any money. 02:13:30.986 --> 02:13:34.361 Um, you know, so in order to, if you wanted anything, I mean, I 02:13:34.366 --> 02:13:37.736 can remember I bought my first pair of Levi's Levi Jeans myself. 02:13:37.736 --> 02:13:39.596 'cause my mom and dad couldn't afford anything. 02:13:39.596 --> 02:13:41.246 We were living off social security. 02:13:41.726 --> 02:13:41.966 Rupert Isaacson: Yeah. 02:13:42.026 --> 02:13:44.396 Paul Illingworth: Um, and that was all done through paper round money. 02:13:45.236 --> 02:13:47.156 Rupert Isaacson: So you become, you know, yeah. 02:13:47.156 --> 02:13:51.926 That boy who's out there making a bit of money pre-adolescence, 02:13:52.646 --> 02:13:54.236 take us now into your adolescence. 02:13:54.266 --> 02:13:55.196 Where does it go from there? 02:13:56.066 --> 02:13:56.516 Paul Illingworth: Hmm. 02:13:57.836 --> 02:13:58.256 Well. 02:13:59.066 --> 02:14:00.386 I did pretty well at school. 02:14:00.656 --> 02:14:02.006 Uh, God knows why. 02:14:02.156 --> 02:14:05.936 Um, I actually do have a, a, a relatively high iq. 02:14:06.446 --> 02:14:08.546 Not that anybody realize that at the time you did. 02:14:08.546 --> 02:14:14.636 Well, I really, yeah, I, I struggled with reading Rupert and I, I guess 02:14:14.636 --> 02:14:18.686 that now I would be, what you would call dis I was dyslexic basically. 02:14:18.691 --> 02:14:18.901 Right. 02:14:19.241 --> 02:14:20.821 Um, I was very, very But you still got through 02:14:20.821 --> 02:14:21.596 Rupert Isaacson: the school system though. 02:14:21.656 --> 02:14:24.176 Paul Illingworth: Yeah, I was, it was a bit of a struggle. 02:14:24.176 --> 02:14:26.696 I was very, very good at math, but I couldn't read and 02:14:26.696 --> 02:14:28.286 writing was a struggle for me. 02:14:28.676 --> 02:14:28.766 Right. 02:14:28.766 --> 02:14:33.356 And, and at the age of 11, when, uh, when you had to do what was called 02:14:33.356 --> 02:14:39.056 the 11 plus, 11 plus, that's it, the 11 plus, I had to do the 11 plus. 02:14:39.746 --> 02:14:44.906 Um, and I managed to pass the 11 plus barely, which gave me access 02:14:44.906 --> 02:14:46.736 to go into local grammar school. 02:14:47.246 --> 02:14:47.276 Okay. 02:14:47.276 --> 02:14:49.706 But my parents couldn't afford the school uniform. 02:14:50.516 --> 02:14:55.136 And there was a secondary modern school, uh, only about half 02:14:55.136 --> 02:14:56.696 a mile from where we lived. 02:14:56.696 --> 02:15:00.056 So I went to the secondary model school, secondary model school. 02:15:00.716 --> 02:15:03.926 Um, but I did manage to pass the 11 plus. 02:15:03.956 --> 02:15:07.946 And then, but the first couple of years at school, I really struggled with English. 02:15:07.946 --> 02:15:12.596 And, and you know, even then, I think moving forward a little bit, when 02:15:12.596 --> 02:15:16.466 I, when I came to join the Navy, one of the qualifications I needed to 02:15:16.466 --> 02:15:19.766 become an officer in the Navy was I had to have an English O level. 02:15:19.766 --> 02:15:21.206 I failed it three times. 02:15:21.716 --> 02:15:26.786 I had math, A level physics, a level technical drawing, 02:15:26.786 --> 02:15:29.096 chemistry, and one other. 02:15:29.156 --> 02:15:31.916 I had four A levels, but I couldn't pass English O level. 02:15:32.126 --> 02:15:33.221 That's how bad I was. 02:15:33.386 --> 02:15:34.046 I mean, really. 02:15:34.046 --> 02:15:38.546 So, um, you know, I managed to take it and, and get it eventually and that 02:15:38.546 --> 02:15:40.586 then allowed me to, to join the Navy. 02:15:40.586 --> 02:15:42.056 But um. 02:15:44.111 --> 02:15:45.641 I was gonna go in the forces. 02:15:45.641 --> 02:15:47.921 It was either that or go to university. 02:15:47.921 --> 02:15:50.621 But again, gonna university in those days without any money 02:15:50.621 --> 02:15:52.271 was very, very difficult. 02:15:52.811 --> 02:15:57.521 Um, I actually wanted to be, um, an architect because of my dad's 02:15:57.521 --> 02:15:58.991 connection with the building business. 02:15:58.991 --> 02:16:03.821 He, even though he was invalid, he did teach me a lot of stuff growing up. 02:16:03.821 --> 02:16:06.311 I, I got a lot of skills that he taught me. 02:16:06.881 --> 02:16:08.681 You know, I mean, he taught me how to lay bricks. 02:16:08.681 --> 02:16:13.271 He taught me how to sew the pipe, how to do electric work, um, which you're 02:16:13.271 --> 02:16:17.021 messing around as a kid with two 20 volts isn't a lot of fun if you get it wrong. 02:16:17.411 --> 02:16:17.591 Yeah. 02:16:17.651 --> 02:16:21.971 Um, but he, he gave me all of the basic skills that I think I 02:16:21.971 --> 02:16:24.761 built on as I got older myself. 02:16:25.031 --> 02:16:25.241 Right. 02:16:25.241 --> 02:16:29.201 But, you know, I left school when I was, when I was 16. 02:16:29.921 --> 02:16:33.761 I could have stayed on, but I had the qualifications that I needed to join 02:16:33.761 --> 02:16:36.131 the Navy as a, as a cadet officer. 02:16:36.281 --> 02:16:40.061 Um, my dad wanted me to go in the Army, as you can imagine. 02:16:40.211 --> 02:16:42.821 He did not want me to go in the, in the Navy. 02:16:43.061 --> 02:16:47.561 My first choice was the Air Force, but I would've had to have gone to college to 02:16:47.591 --> 02:16:51.311 become a flight officer, um, because they didn't take you straight from school. 02:16:51.311 --> 02:16:55.931 So the Navy was the best way for me to go into the armed forces as an officer 02:16:55.931 --> 02:16:58.931 without having to go to university and spend a whole hell of a lot of money. 02:16:59.141 --> 02:17:00.731 That's why I ended up joining the Navy. 02:17:01.031 --> 02:17:03.071 Rupert Isaacson: There's, let's, just before we get to the Navy, 02:17:03.251 --> 02:17:08.441 um, you spent a little bit of time playing professional rugby as well. 02:17:09.156 --> 02:17:09.436 Mm-hmm. 02:17:09.761 --> 02:17:11.471 And not rugby union, but rugby league. 02:17:11.471 --> 02:17:13.451 And I think it, people need to know what the difference is. 02:17:13.451 --> 02:17:13.721 Yeah. 02:17:13.751 --> 02:17:14.231 Paul Illingworth: So 02:17:14.351 --> 02:17:17.291 Rupert Isaacson: what, how did that happen and then how did that play into forces? 02:17:17.711 --> 02:17:18.041 Paul Illingworth: Alright. 02:17:18.041 --> 02:17:22.871 So my dad, um, growing up in Yorkshire. 02:17:23.531 --> 02:17:25.631 As a yorkshireman played rugby league. 02:17:26.231 --> 02:17:30.161 Uh, there's a big divide between, well, there was in those days, not so much now, 02:17:30.161 --> 02:17:36.041 but, but Rugby Union was played down south in the uk, which was a non-professional 02:17:36.041 --> 02:17:39.881 sport that was just simply played for fun Guys played it at the weekend. 02:17:39.881 --> 02:17:40.751 They didn't get paid. 02:17:40.751 --> 02:17:45.581 Rugby league was a professional sport, just like soccer was in the uk. 02:17:45.581 --> 02:17:48.371 Then where you actually got paid to play. 02:17:49.091 --> 02:17:51.641 Rugby league was only played in the north of England. 02:17:52.211 --> 02:17:55.331 My dad played rugby league when he was a kid growing up. 02:17:55.841 --> 02:18:00.251 Uh, and also when he was a teen and, and I think even a, not 02:18:00.251 --> 02:18:01.781 after the war, but before the war. 02:18:01.781 --> 02:18:05.231 He played rugby league and he played for, for Castleford, which was 02:18:05.231 --> 02:18:07.631 the, um, the town he grew up in. 02:18:08.531 --> 02:18:10.901 So I kind of grew up with a rugby ball. 02:18:11.321 --> 02:18:13.511 In, in my hands all the time. 02:18:13.781 --> 02:18:17.381 I always had a rugby ball, never played, really played soccer. 02:18:17.921 --> 02:18:21.821 So when I went into secondary school, they didn't play rugby 02:18:21.971 --> 02:18:23.591 because it was a secondary school. 02:18:23.741 --> 02:18:25.691 Only the grammar schools played rugby. 02:18:25.691 --> 02:18:27.551 The secondary schools played soccer. 02:18:28.001 --> 02:18:32.561 I was very lucky because at 11 years old, when I went into secondary 02:18:32.561 --> 02:18:37.721 school, which is like the American high school, uh, we got a new gym 02:18:37.721 --> 02:18:43.061 teacher, stroke coach who was a welshman that was very much into rugby. 02:18:43.901 --> 02:18:50.471 I had a desire to play rugby and the school I went to, it wasn't 02:18:50.471 --> 02:18:52.781 the best of school, shall we say. 02:18:52.781 --> 02:18:56.111 There was a very, very high proportion of Italian immigrants 02:18:56.111 --> 02:18:57.731 lived in the area that I lived in. 02:18:58.541 --> 02:19:03.521 Um, and those guys, although they were all soccer mad, they also liked to fight. 02:19:04.766 --> 02:19:08.966 So rugby being a lot more physical game than soccer, they saw it as an 02:19:08.966 --> 02:19:12.536 opportunity to go on the pitch third ball around and fight with different people. 02:19:13.051 --> 02:19:16.856 And isn't that that, what It's pretty much, yeah. 02:19:16.861 --> 02:19:19.466 I I even today it's, it's pretty much the same thing. 02:19:19.676 --> 02:19:19.856 Yeah. 02:19:19.946 --> 02:19:27.086 So I ended up, um, with the gym teacher, if you like it, 11, 12 years old. 02:19:27.236 --> 02:19:31.016 Um, starting a rugby team at the school, we didn't have any, we didn't have 02:19:31.016 --> 02:19:34.586 any h posts or anything like that, so we had to play on the soccer pitch. 02:19:35.276 --> 02:19:37.946 Um, and we managed to get a group of guys together that were 02:19:37.946 --> 02:19:39.236 interested in playing rugby. 02:19:39.236 --> 02:19:44.306 So with what I knew about rugby and obviously what the, our Welsh gym teacher 02:19:44.366 --> 02:19:48.326 knew who played Rugby Foot virtually all of his life, we managed to get things 02:19:48.326 --> 02:19:50.876 together and get a rugby team going. 02:19:50.936 --> 02:19:55.946 The first game that we played the very first season, uh, we lost 50 N nil. 02:19:56.036 --> 02:19:59.456 We got absolutely hammered, but um, there was a lot of fighting, 02:19:59.486 --> 02:20:00.836 which my guys really, really. 02:20:01.991 --> 02:20:04.301 Um, and then things sort of moved on from there. 02:20:04.541 --> 02:20:09.041 And as, as the years passed, we got better and better and better. 02:20:09.041 --> 02:20:12.551 It was always the same guys just moving from one year up to the next. 02:20:13.061 --> 02:20:17.771 Um, I was captain of the rugby team pretty well from, from day one because 02:20:17.771 --> 02:20:20.831 I was the only person I actually knew anything about the game to start off with. 02:20:21.521 --> 02:20:25.301 Um, and the last year that I was at school, we actually did very, very well. 02:20:25.391 --> 02:20:29.111 Um, we, um, we won the county cup. 02:20:29.801 --> 02:20:35.261 Um, I got capped for, uh, for Hartfordshire for Southeast England 02:20:35.261 --> 02:20:38.651 and I actually got a junior cap to and played for England as well. 02:20:38.651 --> 02:20:44.591 So as a result of that, I was scouted, if you like, to go and play rugby league. 02:20:44.891 --> 02:20:45.971 Rupert Isaacson: What position did you play? 02:20:46.271 --> 02:20:46.691 Number 02:20:46.691 --> 02:20:46.901 Paul Illingworth: eight. 02:20:47.561 --> 02:20:48.311 So number eight. 02:20:48.311 --> 02:20:51.071 Number eight is the guy that's at the very back of the pack. 02:20:51.071 --> 02:20:54.221 So the, you've got your forwards and which are in a pack. 02:20:54.881 --> 02:20:57.521 And I was at the very back, so I played number eight. 02:20:57.881 --> 02:21:00.911 Now in rugby, rugby union there's 15 players. 02:21:00.911 --> 02:21:04.541 Rugby league, there's only 13 because they have two less people in the pack. 02:21:04.751 --> 02:21:09.551 And the position I played in Rugby Union number eight was called, uh, 02:21:09.851 --> 02:21:12.431 lock, lock Forward in Rugby League. 02:21:13.181 --> 02:21:18.521 So I ended up getting scouted and was offered an opportunity to go 02:21:18.521 --> 02:21:20.651 and play for Featherston Rovers. 02:21:21.221 --> 02:21:24.941 Um, and as a result of that, I went to Featherston. 02:21:25.061 --> 02:21:26.381 And how old were you at this point? 02:21:26.981 --> 02:21:27.911 I was 15. 02:21:28.181 --> 02:21:28.541 Wow. 02:21:29.021 --> 02:21:33.191 So it would've been, it would've been an opportunity to play for 02:21:33.251 --> 02:21:35.261 the, what they call the Cols team. 02:21:35.561 --> 02:21:39.521 Um, and basically, you know, you learn to play rugby league. 02:21:39.881 --> 02:21:40.601 It, it, it's. 02:21:41.171 --> 02:21:43.391 It's rugby, but it's a different type of rugby. 02:21:43.391 --> 02:21:45.341 It's very, very different from rugby union. 02:21:45.341 --> 02:21:50.231 And I'd never played rugby league before, so um, I went there for six. 02:21:50.231 --> 02:21:50.651 What's the main 02:21:50.651 --> 02:21:51.191 Rupert Isaacson: difference? 02:21:52.841 --> 02:21:58.001 Paul Illingworth: Oh, the main difference basically is um, when somebody is 02:21:58.001 --> 02:22:03.071 tackled in, in rugby union and you end up going down on the ground, the pack 02:22:03.071 --> 02:22:08.651 form around you, um, in order to be able to protect the ball and keep the 02:22:08.651 --> 02:22:13.421 ball on your side with rugby league when you're tackled, you get up, you and 02:22:13.421 --> 02:22:16.901 you just kick the ball back so there's no rucking, what they call rucking. 02:22:17.321 --> 02:22:21.071 Um, so it's Rugby league is kind of a faster game than 02:22:21.071 --> 02:22:22.721 rugby Union was at the time. 02:22:23.201 --> 02:22:27.191 Um, but it also was, it was, it was a tough game. 02:22:27.191 --> 02:22:30.731 It was played by by miners, basically. 02:22:30.731 --> 02:22:30.791 Yeah. 02:22:30.791 --> 02:22:32.831 It was Yorkshire, it was Lancashire. 02:22:33.521 --> 02:22:38.171 It was tough and it, for a London boy to go up to Yorkshire and try to play 02:22:38.171 --> 02:22:40.481 rugby league, it just didn't work. 02:22:40.601 --> 02:22:40.631 Okay. 02:22:40.841 --> 02:22:45.281 It wasn't that it, I wasn't used to the, to the environment 02:22:45.281 --> 02:22:46.781 to live in for one thing. 02:22:47.231 --> 02:22:51.551 Um, I wasn't really happy about leaving my family at the time as, as well. 02:22:52.336 --> 02:22:55.996 My dad said I was nuts even considering going to Featherston because he 02:22:55.996 --> 02:22:57.886 hated Featherston as a place. 02:22:58.276 --> 02:23:01.786 Um, and he, you know, he said the only team to play for is Castleford. 02:23:01.846 --> 02:23:04.966 So it just, I went up there, I gave it a go. 02:23:05.326 --> 02:23:07.456 Could I become a professional rugby player? 02:23:07.456 --> 02:23:07.876 Yes. 02:23:07.876 --> 02:23:09.016 There's no doubt about it. 02:23:09.016 --> 02:23:11.056 I had the skills to be able to do it. 02:23:11.686 --> 02:23:15.316 Um, I would've had to have lived in Yorkshire in order to be able to do 02:23:15.316 --> 02:23:19.366 it, you know, and then looking back on it now, it was a no brainer really. 02:23:19.426 --> 02:23:21.016 At 30 years old, I'd be done. 02:23:21.106 --> 02:23:22.546 I wouldn't have made an awful lot of money. 02:23:22.546 --> 02:23:25.426 It's not like soccer where you make millions and millions of dollars. 02:23:25.756 --> 02:23:26.026 Yeah. 02:23:26.086 --> 02:23:29.356 Um, it wasn't particularly well paid and all I was getting when I 02:23:29.356 --> 02:23:31.216 was up there was expenses anyway. 02:23:31.551 --> 02:23:31.996 Yeah, yeah. 02:23:32.356 --> 02:23:35.866 Um, but it was a good, it was a good experience because it gave me the 02:23:35.866 --> 02:23:40.816 opportunity at that age to make the first career decision of my life. 02:23:41.781 --> 02:23:42.321 Rupert Isaacson: Right. 02:23:42.321 --> 02:23:47.241 And also because you had to start this rugby team at school and get it going 02:23:47.241 --> 02:23:51.951 and get it up to this point of excellence from a, a pretty crappy beginning. 02:23:52.131 --> 02:23:52.221 Mm-hmm. 02:23:52.461 --> 02:23:56.331 Um, that would've given you a kind of 02:23:59.181 --> 02:24:05.061 mentor mentorship on the go in leadership and your, your Welsh mentor 02:24:05.061 --> 02:24:06.621 himself must have helped you with that. 02:24:07.041 --> 02:24:09.861 But then by the time you find yourself later going into the 02:24:09.861 --> 02:24:15.441 forces, you already kind of know how to take a group of standard 02:24:15.441 --> 02:24:17.721 idiots and turn them into something. 02:24:18.201 --> 02:24:18.501 Paul Illingworth: Yeah. 02:24:18.711 --> 02:24:22.401 Rupert Isaacson: And, um, if you, I think if you've been doing that since 02:24:22.401 --> 02:24:27.471 adolescence, it's probably something which you don't even notice in yourself 02:24:27.471 --> 02:24:30.711 probably by the time you're getting into your twenties, but that you can command. 02:24:31.041 --> 02:24:36.531 And by commanding I don't mean, um, just bossing people about to know about. 02:24:36.531 --> 02:24:39.771 I mean, actually organizing people and getting a job done. 02:24:40.166 --> 02:24:41.336 That could be a difficult job. 02:24:41.336 --> 02:24:42.446 That could be a scary job. 02:24:43.826 --> 02:24:44.066 Paul Illingworth: Yeah. 02:24:44.071 --> 02:24:45.626 I th I think that's very true. 02:24:45.656 --> 02:24:49.856 I mean, the playing rugby at school, it wasn't just a case of, oh, I'm 02:24:49.856 --> 02:24:53.096 gonna go play rugby at school on a Saturday afternoon, and that's it. 02:24:53.096 --> 02:24:55.226 It was, it was every day of my life. 02:24:55.286 --> 02:24:59.846 I mean, I lived and breathed for rugby and at 13 years old, I started playing 02:24:59.846 --> 02:25:01.646 for the local rugby club as well. 02:25:01.676 --> 02:25:06.686 Um, because Dave James, who was the gym teacher, played for the local rugby 02:25:06.686 --> 02:25:09.326 club, and they had a, a junior team. 02:25:09.596 --> 02:25:15.026 So 13 years old, I was, I was playing rugby for the club on a Saturday 02:25:15.026 --> 02:25:17.846 afternoon and playing rugby for the school on Saturday morning, 02:25:17.846 --> 02:25:19.706 and we had practice twice a week. 02:25:19.706 --> 02:25:21.926 So, I mean, you know. 02:25:22.601 --> 02:25:26.711 I think a lot of young people today, the problem that, that they have is they, they 02:25:26.711 --> 02:25:28.571 don't know what to do with themselves. 02:25:28.811 --> 02:25:29.111 Mm-hmm. 02:25:29.171 --> 02:25:33.731 You know, uh, uh, and I hate bringing up computer games and things like that. 02:25:33.731 --> 02:25:35.651 There was no computer games when I was growing up. 02:25:35.651 --> 02:25:38.381 I didn't, we didn't even have a television in the house, so it's not like I 02:25:38.381 --> 02:25:39.671 could watch television or do anything. 02:25:40.031 --> 02:25:41.741 You had to go out and do something. 02:25:42.221 --> 02:25:49.541 Um, so rugby for me, rugby for me was, was really the way, I guess, of ignoring 02:25:49.541 --> 02:25:53.111 everything else that was going on and just doing something that I really enjoyed. 02:25:53.111 --> 02:25:53.291 You know? 02:25:53.291 --> 02:25:55.451 I mean, we, you know, like I said, we didn't have any 02:25:55.451 --> 02:25:56.741 money when I was growing up. 02:25:56.741 --> 02:25:56.801 Yeah. 02:25:56.801 --> 02:25:57.671 We didn't have a car. 02:25:58.061 --> 02:26:00.791 My dad had a motorbike, which eventually I inherited. 02:26:01.241 --> 02:26:05.111 Um, but he couldn't ride the motorbike, not after he had his accident. 02:26:05.471 --> 02:26:08.951 My mum used to go and get a groceries on a, on a bicycle, you 02:26:08.951 --> 02:26:10.331 know, with a basket on the front. 02:26:10.361 --> 02:26:16.991 So, um, you know, but I, but I think, yes, the leadership skills, um. 02:26:17.726 --> 02:26:19.796 Certainly started with the rugby team. 02:26:19.796 --> 02:26:21.356 There's absolutely no doubt about that. 02:26:21.536 --> 02:26:23.096 Rupert Isaacson: I guess too, the thing with leadership is 02:26:23.096 --> 02:26:24.506 it's also responsibility, right? 02:26:24.506 --> 02:26:26.996 If you are the one who says, okay, I'm gonna organize this team. 02:26:26.996 --> 02:26:29.726 I'm gonna be the captain, I'm gonna take a group of boys who 02:26:29.726 --> 02:26:32.126 are aggressive and chaotic. 02:26:32.516 --> 02:26:34.046 It's a, it's a lot of responsibility. 02:26:34.046 --> 02:26:37.316 You have to make it work or you look like it, you know, an idiot. 02:26:37.316 --> 02:26:37.376 Yeah. 02:26:37.886 --> 02:26:39.296 And the pack will turn on you. 02:26:39.806 --> 02:26:40.046 Yeah. 02:26:40.136 --> 02:26:41.096 And, um. 02:26:41.516 --> 02:26:43.766 So in a way where it's sort of do or die, isn't it? 02:26:43.766 --> 02:26:44.696 That you have to Yes. 02:26:45.081 --> 02:26:48.296 You, you have to take that risk and that must have been quite intimidating, 02:26:48.296 --> 02:26:52.676 you know, equally going up to, to play rugby in the north like that. 02:26:52.676 --> 02:26:58.106 And, and anyone who's never played rugby, honestly, you know, it was compulsory 02:26:58.106 --> 02:26:59.546 at school when I, when I was a kid. 02:26:59.816 --> 02:27:05.576 It, when Ablo like Paul is running at you, he's gonna hit you like a car, you 02:27:05.576 --> 02:27:08.306 know, and you know it's gonna hurt, right? 02:27:08.396 --> 02:27:10.256 Or if I, I am not a big guy. 02:27:10.256 --> 02:27:15.326 If I have to tackle Paul, I've gotta hope that three of my mates are gonna 02:27:15.326 --> 02:27:17.786 jump on as well, or it's just not fair. 02:27:17.786 --> 02:27:21.716 I'm just sort of hanging onto his leg, just keeps running up the pitch, kicking 02:27:21.716 --> 02:27:25.916 at my face, you know, as, as he does it, there is quite a lot of fear involved. 02:27:25.916 --> 02:27:30.566 And when you end up on the bottom of the scrum, you know, when it collapses, um, it 02:27:30.566 --> 02:27:31.616 doesn't matter actually how big you are. 02:27:31.616 --> 02:27:34.856 You can't breathe, you know, and I, I, you know, that panic that you get 02:27:34.856 --> 02:27:39.146 when you, you just have to sort of wait until you can breathe again. 02:27:39.596 --> 02:27:40.736 Um, so. 02:27:41.771 --> 02:27:48.401 I do wonder, you know, one of the things which I think young men need is they do 02:27:48.401 --> 02:27:51.521 need a certain amount of risk and they do need a certain amount of danger. 02:27:51.761 --> 02:27:55.151 We are supposed to go and hunt wildebeest with a spear kind of thing. 02:27:55.751 --> 02:28:04.211 Um, and do you feel that that's just less available these days? 02:28:04.331 --> 02:28:06.641 Because I, I feel that young men need it, like they need oxygen. 02:28:08.621 --> 02:28:12.821 Paul Illingworth: I, yes, it most definitely is unavailable. 02:28:13.181 --> 02:28:18.881 Um, but I think society has had an awful lot to do with this, Rupert, because 02:28:19.841 --> 02:28:22.661 we, we multi, we mollycoddle kids now. 02:28:23.261 --> 02:28:24.371 There's no doubt about it. 02:28:24.371 --> 02:28:26.051 I know I'm not, I'm not a firm believer. 02:28:26.051 --> 02:28:28.601 I don't think we should be going around beating our kids for no. 02:28:28.631 --> 02:28:30.011 Every single thing that we do. 02:28:30.101 --> 02:28:32.981 But the trouble is they're getting wrapped in cotton wool. 02:28:33.671 --> 02:28:35.831 They're being, they're, they're being protected. 02:28:35.831 --> 02:28:40.121 You know, you get a situation where if anything happens at school, if somebody 02:28:40.121 --> 02:28:43.961 even turns around and yells at somebody, the parents can get called into the 02:28:43.961 --> 02:28:45.761 school and the child gets disciplined. 02:28:46.061 --> 02:28:46.391 Mm-hmm. 02:28:46.391 --> 02:28:51.431 You know, there's is, you know, it's, it's easy for me in my sixties to 02:28:51.431 --> 02:28:54.611 turn around and say that, you know, we produced a soft generation because 02:28:54.611 --> 02:28:58.391 my father used to say exactly the same thing, you know about me when I was 02:28:58.391 --> 02:29:02.106 growing up, and everybody says that, but I think it's just got to the point now. 02:29:03.116 --> 02:29:08.516 Where there isn't enough things for, particularly for young men to do that 02:29:08.516 --> 02:29:14.126 really challenge them enough and, and not only, not just challenge them 02:29:14.126 --> 02:29:19.376 physically, but but challenge them mentally and prepare them for the world. 02:29:19.376 --> 02:29:21.236 I mean, the world's a scary place, right? 02:29:21.746 --> 02:29:21.936 Yes, it is. 02:29:21.936 --> 02:29:22.826 The world is a scary place. 02:29:22.826 --> 02:29:23.516 Believe you're me. 02:29:23.516 --> 02:29:26.756 I mean, you know, I'm still scared of some of the things that I see happen. 02:29:27.056 --> 02:29:30.116 I'm terrified when I go out and try driving on the roads at the moment. 02:29:30.416 --> 02:29:30.536 Yeah. 02:29:30.566 --> 02:29:36.866 Um, but you know, there, there's, there isn't enough things for, but, and I don't 02:29:36.866 --> 02:29:39.296 know, you know, I, I agree with you 100%. 02:29:39.296 --> 02:29:42.656 There's a huge difference between young men and young women, the way that they, 02:29:42.686 --> 02:29:47.636 they interact, but young girls aren't really brought up to be scared of things. 02:29:48.026 --> 02:29:52.676 And, and, and, but young men seem to have lost. 02:29:53.276 --> 02:29:56.816 The whole sense of, of fear and, and, and they don't want 02:29:56.816 --> 02:29:58.316 anything to do with it anymore. 02:29:58.406 --> 02:30:03.776 I think this is why they become insular and they go to things like computer games 02:30:03.776 --> 02:30:07.586 because they don't wanna actually face what's going on outside in the real world. 02:30:07.616 --> 02:30:08.216 And interestingly, 02:30:08.216 --> 02:30:09.716 Rupert Isaacson: a lot of the computer games are showing the 02:30:09.716 --> 02:30:11.846 very things that Yeah, right. 02:30:11.846 --> 02:30:13.256 In the old days they'd have actually been doing 02:30:13.766 --> 02:30:16.286 Paul Illingworth: Exactly, that's exactly what they are. 02:30:17.096 --> 02:30:19.586 Rupert Isaacson: So, alright, then tell us, you enter the 02:30:19.586 --> 02:30:21.746 forces, you go into the Navy. 02:30:22.166 --> 02:30:22.406 Paul Illingworth: Mm-hmm. 02:30:22.676 --> 02:30:25.376 Rupert Isaacson: Do you do that just because it's not what your dad wants you 02:30:25.376 --> 02:30:27.146 to do or do you do that to a certain ex? 02:30:27.296 --> 02:30:28.826 Paul Illingworth: No, to a certain extent, yes. 02:30:28.826 --> 02:30:29.096 And what's 02:30:29.096 --> 02:30:29.786 Rupert Isaacson: his reaction? 02:30:30.596 --> 02:30:31.196 Paul Illingworth: No, he hated it. 02:30:31.436 --> 02:30:33.686 I don't think we talked for the first two years. 02:30:34.226 --> 02:30:37.646 I mean, I was, I was going away for long periods of time, you know, I 02:30:37.646 --> 02:30:39.296 mean, I'd be gone for nine months. 02:30:39.326 --> 02:30:39.386 Yeah. 02:30:39.416 --> 02:30:40.961 Um, so, and, and. 02:30:41.531 --> 02:30:44.861 But, you know, my mother and I used to write letters every week. 02:30:44.861 --> 02:30:48.311 I mean, I've still got a big box full of letters that my mother wrote me 02:30:48.311 --> 02:30:53.081 while I, in my early days in the Navy, I was very, very close to my mum. 02:30:53.081 --> 02:30:55.361 She was the one that used to get me up at five o'clock in the 02:30:55.361 --> 02:30:56.771 morning to do my paper round. 02:30:56.771 --> 02:30:58.991 She'd gimme a cup of tea, she'd gimme some toast. 02:30:59.501 --> 02:30:59.771 Yeah. 02:30:59.861 --> 02:31:02.051 Um, I was very, very close to her. 02:31:02.561 --> 02:31:06.581 Um, I don't think, I never got a letter from my father at any point in time. 02:31:06.581 --> 02:31:08.591 I mean, he didn't really believe in writing anyway. 02:31:08.591 --> 02:31:11.321 There was no telephones or anything like that in those days. 02:31:11.321 --> 02:31:13.991 There's no way of communicating other than through letters. 02:31:14.351 --> 02:31:15.176 But he, he was angry with 02:31:15.371 --> 02:31:16.301 Rupert Isaacson: you for going in the Navy. 02:31:16.361 --> 02:31:17.021 Paul Illingworth: He was, yeah. 02:31:17.021 --> 02:31:19.691 He was, he, he was ang he was angry. 02:31:20.141 --> 02:31:22.031 He was pretty well angry all the time. 02:31:22.031 --> 02:31:25.481 I think the only thing he really liked about me growing up was playing rugby. 02:31:25.871 --> 02:31:25.991 Right. 02:31:26.021 --> 02:31:29.561 Um, and even then when I made the decision not to go to Castleford and 02:31:29.561 --> 02:31:31.361 play rugby, he was annoyed at that. 02:31:31.361 --> 02:31:34.931 And then I decided I was gonna go in the Navy and not in the Army. 02:31:34.931 --> 02:31:38.261 And as I said, my first choice would've been the Air Force anyway, but Right. 02:31:38.771 --> 02:31:39.191 Um. 02:31:40.286 --> 02:31:43.046 It was, it was the Navy. 02:31:43.886 --> 02:31:49.226 I'll be, I'll be quite honest with you, the Navy was a, an easy solution for me. 02:31:49.856 --> 02:31:52.736 Um, and that's probably why I took that route. 02:31:52.766 --> 02:31:56.696 I know it's, it, it's not necessarily the way that I have done things since 02:31:56.696 --> 02:32:02.576 then, but at that time it was the easiest way for me to get out the house, go 02:32:02.576 --> 02:32:06.296 and see some of the world, which was the big thing because I didn't have to 02:32:06.296 --> 02:32:11.966 get posted in the UK or go to a train in school or go to college for months. 02:32:12.206 --> 02:32:17.486 I went to a ship, I went out to Singapore, I went to a ship and I was gone. 02:32:18.086 --> 02:32:18.386 Right. 02:32:18.386 --> 02:32:21.056 I started seeing the world from day one, literally. 02:32:21.086 --> 02:32:23.486 And that was the big appeal I wanted to travel. 02:32:24.986 --> 02:32:26.216 Rupert Isaacson: What did you do in the Navy? 02:32:26.216 --> 02:32:26.846 What was the job? 02:32:27.431 --> 02:32:30.881 Paul Illingworth: I was, uh, I started off as a, as a weaponry officer. 02:32:31.661 --> 02:32:36.401 Um, and then, uh, when I moved from the Royal Navy into the Merchant 02:32:36.401 --> 02:32:41.051 Navy, um, I had sufficient time in the Royal Navy and the qualifications to 02:32:41.051 --> 02:32:43.901 be able to go to, uh, Naval College. 02:32:44.501 --> 02:32:48.431 Uh, and worked my way up through the certification process. 02:32:48.436 --> 02:32:52.031 So, so that, um, I ended up with a captain certificate, so it 02:32:52.031 --> 02:32:54.761 would've taken a lot of years in the Royal Navy to get to that point. 02:32:54.761 --> 02:32:54.851 Right. 02:32:54.851 --> 02:32:56.531 But in the Merchant Navy, it was quicker. 02:32:56.861 --> 02:32:57.161 Rupert Isaacson: Okay. 02:32:57.161 --> 02:33:01.931 So that was gonna be a question A, why did you choose the merchant Navy B? 02:33:01.991 --> 02:33:04.691 Um, explain to, and again, not everyone knows the British system, 02:33:04.691 --> 02:33:09.671 so if you can explain what the Merchant Navy is, um, and talk us 02:33:09.671 --> 02:33:11.531 through what life was like with that. 02:33:11.531 --> 02:33:14.021 So, so first, why the change, then what is it? 02:33:14.021 --> 02:33:15.311 And then talk us through life. 02:33:15.611 --> 02:33:15.881 Paul Illingworth: Okay. 02:33:15.881 --> 02:33:19.871 Well, the, the, the main reason for the change was, uh. 02:33:20.471 --> 02:33:21.611 Uh, money. 02:33:22.516 --> 02:33:22.806 Okay? 02:33:22.931 --> 02:33:26.531 You earn a lot more money in the Merchant Navy than you did in the Royal Navy. 02:33:27.011 --> 02:33:31.931 Uh, also it was to do with the ranking systems of the two different navies. 02:33:31.931 --> 02:33:35.681 Now, the Merchant Navy is the same as the, the US Merchant Marine. 02:33:36.281 --> 02:33:40.211 Um, you could join the Merchant Marine and you can go to college as a, as a 02:33:40.211 --> 02:33:45.011 cadet officer, um, and work your way up through the, through the different ranks 02:33:45.011 --> 02:33:46.991 in the Merchant Navy to become a captain. 02:33:47.531 --> 02:33:49.871 The Royal Navy pretty well, works the same way, except the 02:33:49.871 --> 02:33:51.761 process is, is a lot slower. 02:33:52.391 --> 02:33:56.411 Um, in order to be get to become a captain in the Royal Navy, you'd probably 02:33:56.411 --> 02:33:58.961 have to have 25 or 30 years of service. 02:33:58.961 --> 02:34:02.351 You could get to captain in the Merchant Navy with 10 years of service. 02:34:02.351 --> 02:34:04.241 So it was a much, much quicker process. 02:34:04.871 --> 02:34:09.071 Um, merchant Navy paid a a lot more money than the Royal Navy, and I 02:34:09.071 --> 02:34:16.631 was, I was quite lucky in that I followed, uh, my and my older cousin. 02:34:17.336 --> 02:34:19.406 Really was, he was kind of like my mentor. 02:34:19.406 --> 02:34:21.026 He went into the Merchant Navy. 02:34:21.026 --> 02:34:23.846 He was 12 years older than me, and he was more like a big brother 02:34:23.846 --> 02:34:25.766 than a, than a than a cousin. 02:34:26.396 --> 02:34:31.796 He went straight into the Merchant Navy fairly shortly, uh, probably six or seven 02:34:31.796 --> 02:34:33.806 years after he went in the merchant Navy. 02:34:33.836 --> 02:34:36.236 He went into the oil and gas business. 02:34:36.596 --> 02:34:38.096 That's where the big money was. 02:34:38.726 --> 02:34:42.296 Um, so I was able, when I went in the Merchant Navy to do a couple 02:34:42.296 --> 02:34:46.196 of trips on, on big cargo ships, see a bit of the world doing that. 02:34:46.496 --> 02:34:49.796 And then I moved into the oil and gas business and the oil and gas business, 02:34:49.796 --> 02:34:53.936 which was basically working on supply boats that ran supplies to the oil rigs. 02:34:54.506 --> 02:34:56.786 That's where, where the money really was. 02:34:56.786 --> 02:34:59.306 So, you know, it was a transition. 02:35:00.116 --> 02:35:00.386 Um. 02:35:01.496 --> 02:35:05.276 From really just one naval service to another naval service 02:35:05.396 --> 02:35:06.656 doing something different. 02:35:07.166 --> 02:35:10.196 Not so much of the, the military regime. 02:35:10.706 --> 02:35:14.336 Um, you know, not so much of the Yes sir, no sir. 02:35:14.336 --> 02:35:16.796 Three bags full serve that you had in the Royal Navy. 02:35:16.796 --> 02:35:21.566 A a lot more relaxed, um, and to be quite honest with you, a lot more fun. 02:35:22.406 --> 02:35:23.276 Why is it more fun? 02:35:24.686 --> 02:35:25.286 Um, 02:35:28.196 --> 02:35:34.106 it's, it, I I'm not really the type of person that, that is a disciplinarian. 02:35:34.226 --> 02:35:38.396 Uh, I never really enjoyed the Yes, sir, no sir. 02:35:38.396 --> 02:35:43.271 Stuff that came with the, with being in the Royal Navy, there was, so, it was a 02:35:43.276 --> 02:35:47.096 more relaxed atmosphere, which I think just, just made it a little bit more fun. 02:35:47.576 --> 02:35:52.766 Also, the other thing as well is, you know, when you go ashore, when you're 02:35:52.766 --> 02:35:56.846 in the Navy and you've been at sea a long time, and you go ashore, you know, 02:35:56.846 --> 02:35:59.156 you wanna really go and enjoy yourself. 02:36:00.026 --> 02:36:04.076 In the Royal Navy, if you enjoyed yourself a little bit too, too much, there would 02:36:04.076 --> 02:36:07.376 be somebody there to put handcuffs on you and take you back to the ship. 02:36:07.676 --> 02:36:07.946 Right. 02:36:07.946 --> 02:36:11.276 In the Merchant Navy, you just had to avoid the local police, 02:36:12.326 --> 02:36:16.101 and that was a lot easier than avoid avoiding the, uh, the sps. 02:36:17.666 --> 02:36:20.006 Um, so that's why it was more fun. 02:36:20.186 --> 02:36:30.836 And I went, I went to some very, very, uh, remote, um, very uncivilized places 02:36:31.226 --> 02:36:33.056 when I was in the, in the merchant Navy. 02:36:33.836 --> 02:36:37.136 I worked in Nigeria, well, I worked in Nigeria for a number of years. 02:36:37.136 --> 02:36:39.566 I worked in Angola when the war was going on. 02:36:39.626 --> 02:36:39.926 Mm-hmm. 02:36:40.406 --> 02:36:45.836 Were East Africa, went all around India, uh, all around South America pretty well. 02:36:46.436 --> 02:36:49.046 I don't think there's, there's very many coasts in the world. 02:36:49.046 --> 02:36:52.676 I haven't actually touched at some point in time, but I spent a lot of time 02:36:52.676 --> 02:36:56.906 working in Africa and you really see some terrible, terrible things there. 02:36:57.326 --> 02:36:58.016 Rupert Isaacson: What did you see? 02:36:59.681 --> 02:37:00.461 Paul Illingworth: A lot of death. 02:37:01.721 --> 02:37:02.981 Uh, a lot. 02:37:02.981 --> 02:37:03.041 What sort of 02:37:03.041 --> 02:37:03.851 Rupert Isaacson: death and why? 02:37:04.211 --> 02:37:06.431 Paul Illingworth: Uh, just dead bodies lying on the side of the road. 02:37:06.431 --> 02:37:09.731 Poverty, starvation, shooting robbery. 02:37:09.761 --> 02:37:13.571 It was India, this was Nigeria, specifically Nigeria. 02:37:13.571 --> 02:37:15.641 Nigeria, Angola was the same. 02:37:15.641 --> 02:37:17.051 Civil war was going on there. 02:37:17.051 --> 02:37:19.691 Virtually the whole of West Africa, and I was there in the, 02:37:19.691 --> 02:37:21.401 in the eighties was just a mess. 02:37:22.061 --> 02:37:22.931 But the ports that you 02:37:22.931 --> 02:37:25.301 Rupert Isaacson: were landing in had a certain amount of security to them? 02:37:25.871 --> 02:37:26.771 Paul Illingworth: Not really, no. 02:37:26.771 --> 02:37:27.971 They were pretty well open. 02:37:28.181 --> 02:37:33.131 Um, and, and that was half the problem as well, you know, I mean, we were 02:37:33.131 --> 02:37:35.396 working on, on the offshore supply boats. 02:37:35.396 --> 02:37:38.201 Pirate wasn't really an issue then. 02:37:38.201 --> 02:37:41.021 The pirate in thing didn't, I was gonna ask you about piracy, you know, 02:37:41.021 --> 02:37:42.941 compared to today off Yemen, for example. 02:37:42.941 --> 02:37:44.561 Oh, it's, it's terrible Today. 02:37:44.561 --> 02:37:46.811 I, I would, I would not want a to. 02:37:47.246 --> 02:37:48.806 Be having to deal with that. 02:37:49.106 --> 02:37:53.846 You know, when we, we carried guns on board, um, more for protection 02:37:53.846 --> 02:37:55.826 against robbers and things like that. 02:37:55.886 --> 02:38:01.106 Um, now they say, I mean, to deal with pirates, now they've got AK 40 02:38:01.106 --> 02:38:02.966 sevens, they've got automatic weapons. 02:38:02.966 --> 02:38:05.486 You know, you don't really want to get involved in things like that. 02:38:05.486 --> 02:38:11.156 It was a, it was a lot simpler, uh, when I was doing things, uh, 02:38:11.186 --> 02:38:13.466 in West Africa apart from Angola. 02:38:13.466 --> 02:38:15.941 And that, that is a different story because I, yeah, I, I, 02:38:16.011 --> 02:38:17.061 that was the, the war zone. 02:38:17.061 --> 02:38:18.381 Yeah, it was the war zone. 02:38:18.626 --> 02:38:18.776 Yeah. 02:38:18.806 --> 02:38:21.086 We'll talk about, we can talk about that a bit later on. 02:38:21.476 --> 02:38:21.596 Okay. 02:38:21.656 --> 02:38:25.136 Um, but it was really just a case of protecting yourself. 02:38:25.136 --> 02:38:26.036 You know, you had to. 02:38:27.731 --> 02:38:30.521 My, shall we say, some of the training that I received when I 02:38:30.521 --> 02:38:33.881 was in the military helped me a lot in terms of personal protection. 02:38:34.001 --> 02:38:38.471 Um, that I had a few, uh, instances in West Africa where 02:38:38.471 --> 02:38:39.791 I had to look after myself. 02:38:40.361 --> 02:38:41.831 Uh, and that helped a lot. 02:38:41.921 --> 02:38:44.801 But it was really just, if you went ashore, you went ashore in 02:38:44.801 --> 02:38:48.641 a group and you were armed, uh, you, you just had to be armed. 02:38:48.641 --> 02:38:49.481 It's as simple as that. 02:38:49.481 --> 02:38:52.421 Not necessarily with a gun, but we used to take knives and clubs 02:38:52.421 --> 02:38:54.581 and things like that with us. 02:38:54.641 --> 02:39:00.731 Um, and you know, to a certain extent it, it was just a way of life. 02:39:01.121 --> 02:39:01.961 Was I scared? 02:39:01.961 --> 02:39:02.291 No. 02:39:02.471 --> 02:39:03.971 You know, would it stop me going to shore? 02:39:03.971 --> 02:39:07.901 No, but it stopped me doing all the things I did know because I wasn't 02:39:07.901 --> 02:39:09.761 really, I wasn't, I just wasn't scared. 02:39:09.761 --> 02:39:10.811 It's as simple as that. 02:39:11.141 --> 02:39:12.311 Rupert Isaacson: Why do you think you weren't scared 02:39:14.981 --> 02:39:15.911 given that it was scary? 02:39:18.551 --> 02:39:21.671 Paul Illingworth: That's a good, I think it all comes back to. 02:39:22.361 --> 02:39:24.851 Just the way that I prepared myself for life. 02:39:24.911 --> 02:39:29.231 There's, there's nothing I can honestly say that, that really scares me. 02:39:29.231 --> 02:39:31.841 I mean, you, you know, you know my background, Rupert, you know, and I, 02:39:32.531 --> 02:39:36.881 um, I'll happily toss myself out of an airplane, you know, uh, any point 02:39:36.881 --> 02:39:38.981 in time and hope the parachutes work. 02:39:38.981 --> 02:39:40.511 It's, I, I don't know. 02:39:40.511 --> 02:39:43.631 You know, I, I think the fear is something that you build up inside you. 02:39:43.631 --> 02:39:47.021 And if you let it overtake you, it can do you a lot of harm. 02:39:47.021 --> 02:39:49.031 And the simplest thing is push it to one side. 02:39:49.181 --> 02:39:50.561 Just get on and deal with life. 02:39:50.561 --> 02:39:51.701 And that's what I've always done. 02:39:52.571 --> 02:39:56.381 I was bullied, believe it or not, I was bullied as a kid. 02:39:56.411 --> 02:40:01.091 One of the things we haven't touched on is when I was 10 years old, um, I was 02:40:01.091 --> 02:40:03.431 riding my bicycle and I got hit by a car. 02:40:03.491 --> 02:40:05.201 Very, very lucky to survive. 02:40:05.591 --> 02:40:08.261 I have a scar that goes from here all the way, my face, 02:40:08.261 --> 02:40:09.401 and around the back of my ear. 02:40:09.401 --> 02:40:11.171 I had 140 stitches there. 02:40:11.171 --> 02:40:12.881 I had another scar down here. 02:40:13.631 --> 02:40:15.911 Uh, my head hit the, the curb. 02:40:15.911 --> 02:40:17.051 I wasn't wearing a helmet. 02:40:17.711 --> 02:40:19.391 Smashed open the back of my head. 02:40:20.111 --> 02:40:24.491 As a result of that, I got bullied at school 'cause the kids called me 02:40:24.491 --> 02:40:29.711 Scarface, the older kids, a lot of whom were the, some of the immigrants I talked 02:40:29.711 --> 02:40:34.031 about, I got bullied and I, I just, I had to learn, stand up for myself. 02:40:34.031 --> 02:40:38.171 My father's attitude was basically, if you're gonna get into a fight, 02:40:38.231 --> 02:40:39.821 have something to help you win it. 02:40:40.841 --> 02:40:41.651 I got bullied. 02:40:42.461 --> 02:40:44.021 It happened two or three times. 02:40:44.081 --> 02:40:48.161 Um, I ended up picking up a branch of a tree, hitting a couple of kids with it. 02:40:48.161 --> 02:40:49.301 They never touched me again. 02:40:49.661 --> 02:40:50.021 Mm-hmm. 02:40:50.621 --> 02:40:54.551 And I'd be one of these people that if threatened, I just lash out. 02:40:55.331 --> 02:40:56.801 You know, I am a fighter. 02:40:56.981 --> 02:40:58.361 I always have been a fighter. 02:40:59.051 --> 02:41:03.041 Um, I've certainly quieted down a little bit now, but you know, you know 02:41:03.041 --> 02:41:06.161 me well enough to know that I won't put up with any crap from anybody. 02:41:06.431 --> 02:41:07.871 And No, but interestingly, 02:41:07.871 --> 02:41:10.391 Rupert Isaacson: I do know that about you, but I also know you as actually 02:41:10.391 --> 02:41:14.591 a very tolerant man, um, with actually you've got a short fuse in that. 02:41:15.146 --> 02:41:19.346 You, you can be a bit grumpy, but one of the things I've always respected 02:41:19.346 --> 02:41:23.516 about you, Paul, is actually, um, you don't throw your weight around. 02:41:23.636 --> 02:41:26.456 Um, you could, 'cause I think we're gonna, let's go into some more of 02:41:26.456 --> 02:41:29.306 your background in a minute, but I, I've never seen you be a bully. 02:41:29.756 --> 02:41:31.256 Um, I've never seen you be cruel. 02:41:31.256 --> 02:41:35.456 I've never seen you use that power misuse, that power. 02:41:35.906 --> 02:41:38.816 Um, so yes. 02:41:38.816 --> 02:41:41.396 I mean, I think if, if somebody threatens you or something like sure. 02:41:41.396 --> 02:41:45.446 I mean, you, I, I don't think I would want to do that, but I've 02:41:45.446 --> 02:41:50.366 ne oddly enough, I've never seen you, um, misuse that aggression. 02:41:50.576 --> 02:41:50.996 Um, no, 02:41:51.566 --> 02:41:53.516 Paul Illingworth: I don't, I don't, I use it to defend myself. 02:41:53.606 --> 02:41:53.726 Mm-hmm. 02:41:54.476 --> 02:41:58.106 It's a, it's a, it's a, it's just a defensive reaction. 02:41:58.496 --> 02:41:58.796 Mm-hmm. 02:41:58.921 --> 02:42:02.456 And, and I mean, you know, anybody in the same situation, 02:42:02.996 --> 02:42:04.406 you know, you can do two things. 02:42:04.616 --> 02:42:07.646 You can run or you can stand and fight. 02:42:08.486 --> 02:42:09.716 And I've run. 02:42:10.136 --> 02:42:12.626 At times, and I can't run very well. 02:42:12.626 --> 02:42:14.576 Sometimes it's very much the right thing to do, but sometimes it's 02:42:14.576 --> 02:42:15.686 definitely the right thing to do. 02:42:16.106 --> 02:42:19.736 Other times, other times it's stand up and fight and sometimes you 02:42:19.736 --> 02:42:20.996 don't have a need to, to fight. 02:42:20.996 --> 02:42:22.586 You just have to stand up for yourself. 02:42:22.586 --> 02:42:23.636 It's as simple as that. 02:42:24.176 --> 02:42:29.636 Um, but, but again, you know, you, you asked me why am I not afraid of anything? 02:42:29.666 --> 02:42:33.026 I mean, I guess I'll, I may well find something I'm afraid of. 02:42:33.026 --> 02:42:36.356 Like I said, the one thing terrifies me at the moment is driving on the roads 02:42:36.386 --> 02:42:40.076 because it, it, they're just, there's so many idiots out there and it just seems 02:42:40.076 --> 02:42:41.576 to be getting worse and worse and worse. 02:42:41.576 --> 02:42:45.176 And I think there's more chance of dying in a car wreck than anything else. 02:42:45.176 --> 02:42:45.806 I mean, I'm not, yeah. 02:42:46.196 --> 02:42:48.956 You know, I don't have to deal with wild animals. 02:42:49.136 --> 02:42:51.926 Um, I don't have to deal with, with war anymore. 02:42:51.926 --> 02:42:54.836 There's no, there's really no fighting, no war or anything like 02:42:54.836 --> 02:42:56.156 that, that I would get involved in. 02:42:56.486 --> 02:42:59.186 So the most dangerous thing I do is go out and drive. 02:42:59.306 --> 02:43:00.266 I ride a motorbike. 02:43:00.941 --> 02:43:02.321 I was on the motorbike yesterday. 02:43:02.681 --> 02:43:03.311 That is dangerous. 02:43:03.311 --> 02:43:03.626 I riding motorbike. 02:43:03.906 --> 02:43:04.226 Dangerous. 02:43:04.231 --> 02:43:07.481 I've rid, but I've ridden a bike since I was 10, 11 years old. 02:43:07.631 --> 02:43:07.751 Mm-hmm. 02:43:07.751 --> 02:43:09.851 You know, only had a couple of spills. 02:43:09.851 --> 02:43:13.811 Fortunately Touchwood, I've never seriously hurt myself, but you've just 02:43:13.811 --> 02:43:19.091 gotta be, you've gotta be def you, you have to ride defensively yesterday and 02:43:19.091 --> 02:43:20.621 it's just like everything else, isn't it? 02:43:20.741 --> 02:43:22.001 You gotta be defensive. 02:43:22.571 --> 02:43:22.721 Yeah. 02:43:22.721 --> 02:43:25.211 You just gotta be prepared to look after yourself. 02:43:25.691 --> 02:43:27.041 That's really what it comes down to. 02:43:27.041 --> 02:43:27.311 So 02:43:27.311 --> 02:43:29.711 Rupert Isaacson: you were talking about war there, so let's talk about that. 02:43:29.711 --> 02:43:33.671 So, um, how do you end up going from the Merchant Navy back into the 02:43:33.671 --> 02:43:36.401 forces and end up in Special forces? 02:43:36.401 --> 02:43:37.546 What's the trick to be there? 02:43:37.546 --> 02:43:37.746 Okay. 02:43:37.781 --> 02:43:41.951 Paul Illingworth: Well, when I was in the, in the Royal Navy, um, I was 02:43:41.951 --> 02:43:47.651 given the opportunity to move sideways into the Royal Marine Commandos. 02:43:48.191 --> 02:43:52.991 Um, which is, which is just like the, the American Marines. 02:43:52.991 --> 02:43:55.901 The Marines are part of the US Navy. 02:43:56.546 --> 02:44:00.026 So they're Royal Marine Commandos are actually technically not 02:44:00.026 --> 02:44:01.196 part of the British Army. 02:44:01.196 --> 02:44:03.716 They're, they're more part of the British Navy. 02:44:04.496 --> 02:44:09.266 Um, I was always interested in special forces, special forces training 02:44:09.266 --> 02:44:10.706 because of what my father went through. 02:44:11.726 --> 02:44:16.346 Um, and so when an opportunity came for me to step sideways, if you like, 02:44:16.346 --> 02:44:18.836 into the RMC, I took that opportunity. 02:44:19.436 --> 02:44:26.246 Um, and as a result of that, uh, ended up going to, um, going to 02:44:26.246 --> 02:44:30.416 Special Forces Selection, which I failed miserably the first time. 02:44:31.076 --> 02:44:35.576 Um, and then going through it again a second time, I managed, I didn't 02:44:35.576 --> 02:44:36.926 know they gave you a second chance. 02:44:36.926 --> 02:44:37.466 That's interesting. 02:44:37.466 --> 02:44:37.976 Yeah, they do. 02:44:38.066 --> 02:44:38.636 They do. 02:44:38.756 --> 02:44:40.166 Yes, you can go back again. 02:44:40.826 --> 02:44:46.316 Um, and I ended up going back and, and basically getting through that. 02:44:46.316 --> 02:44:51.356 So, so that was how, uh, how I ended up getting through and, and. 02:44:52.091 --> 02:44:56.831 I just carried that, that training and that responsibility through with 02:44:56.831 --> 02:45:01.811 some of the other stuff that I got, that I got involved in later on, so. 02:45:01.901 --> 02:45:02.411 Rupert Isaacson: Okay. 02:45:02.441 --> 02:45:05.651 So what did you get involved in later on? 02:45:05.651 --> 02:45:07.541 You, you ended up in the SASI know. 02:45:07.631 --> 02:45:10.211 Um, tell us what you wanna tell us. 02:45:11.771 --> 02:45:16.196 Paul Illingworth: Um, I can't really say too much about anything that, 02:45:16.361 --> 02:45:19.391 that, that happened during that period, to be quite honest with 02:45:19.391 --> 02:45:20.621 you, and I'd really rather not. 02:45:20.861 --> 02:45:21.161 Hmm. 02:45:21.251 --> 02:45:27.101 Um, however, one of the interesting things that, that did happen, um, later on when 02:45:27.101 --> 02:45:29.891 I was in the oil and gas business, um. 02:45:30.476 --> 02:45:34.106 I was, uh, I was working in Angola when the war was actually on 02:45:34.106 --> 02:45:35.906 the, the Civil War was going on. 02:45:36.656 --> 02:45:43.766 Um, and through some contacts that I had that I met down there, um, there was an 02:45:43.766 --> 02:45:49.586 opportunity to, to actually do some work for the night for the Angola government. 02:45:49.916 --> 02:45:54.236 Um, so basically what the, the situation in, in Angola was that you 02:45:54.236 --> 02:45:59.366 had two different political parties as quite often happens with a civil war. 02:45:59.966 --> 02:46:05.816 Um, and you had one ruling party, which was NPLA, and there was another ruling. 02:46:05.876 --> 02:46:11.546 There was another party, which was, uh, you to, and the, the Civil War was really 02:46:11.876 --> 02:46:14.366 you to, was being funded by the Russians. 02:46:14.666 --> 02:46:19.766 MPLA was being funded, if you like, by the West, by non Russians. 02:46:20.396 --> 02:46:20.876 Um. 02:46:21.896 --> 02:46:26.246 The Russian funding got to the point where they were starting to, to get tooled up 02:46:26.246 --> 02:46:28.166 with some very, very serious equipment. 02:46:28.886 --> 02:46:35.306 Um, and the government needed some help, if you like, uh, suppressing 02:46:35.306 --> 02:46:37.886 some of the things that were going on, particularly fairly close to 02:46:37.886 --> 02:46:40.436 Luanda, which was a capital of Angola. 02:46:41.156 --> 02:46:48.386 Um, so as a result of some of the associations that I had, um, I was 02:46:48.386 --> 02:46:53.456 able to step to one side of the oil and gas work that I was actually 02:46:53.456 --> 02:46:57.326 doing because I was working down there as a consultant for Sogo, which 02:46:57.326 --> 02:46:59.036 is a national oil company of Angola. 02:46:59.426 --> 02:47:03.686 So I got to meet some very high people up in the government, um, including the 02:47:03.686 --> 02:47:05.456 president of the country at the time. 02:47:05.996 --> 02:47:08.186 Um, and, um. 02:47:09.296 --> 02:47:13.766 Ended up, if you like, helping them with some of the military, uh, 02:47:13.766 --> 02:47:15.506 issues that, that, that they had. 02:47:15.626 --> 02:47:20.936 It was really more, uh, protecting some of the, some of the, as the 02:47:20.936 --> 02:47:24.566 oil and gas assets that they had that were being threatened by the, 02:47:24.596 --> 02:47:26.246 should we say, the Rebel forces. 02:47:27.086 --> 02:47:31.436 Um, and you know, there were, there were South African mercenaries 02:47:31.436 --> 02:47:32.486 that were actually working there. 02:47:32.486 --> 02:47:36.326 Ex special forces guys from South Africa that were working in Angola all the time. 02:47:36.836 --> 02:47:38.786 I had some association with them. 02:47:39.206 --> 02:47:43.256 Uh, not working as a, I didn't work as a mercenary per se, but I, but I was 02:47:43.256 --> 02:47:48.236 associated with some, should we say some of the strategic decisions that were made 02:47:48.236 --> 02:47:50.996 in order to be able to help protect Luanda 02:47:53.366 --> 02:47:53.666 And 02:47:54.206 --> 02:47:56.396 Rupert Isaacson: what, what years are we talking there and 02:47:56.396 --> 02:47:57.656 how long did that go on for? 02:47:58.721 --> 02:48:01.451 Paul Illingworth: Well, I mean, my involvement was, uh, from 02:48:01.451 --> 02:48:06.371 1992 to 1996, primarily 1994. 02:48:06.701 --> 02:48:06.851 Okay. 02:48:06.911 --> 02:48:11.651 Uh, I think the Civil War went on, I think for almost 20 years, Rupert, to be called. 02:48:11.651 --> 02:48:12.516 Yeah, it did. 02:48:12.516 --> 02:48:12.641 It did. 02:48:12.641 --> 02:48:17.231 I remember I was in Angola a long, long, long time. 02:48:17.351 --> 02:48:18.461 Um, yeah, 30 years. 02:48:18.466 --> 02:48:18.836 There was a lot. 02:48:19.026 --> 02:48:19.316 Yeah. 02:48:19.421 --> 02:48:22.871 I think it was, there was a lot of very, very heavy fights around Orlando 02:48:23.111 --> 02:48:26.081 and Soya, uh, during the nineties. 02:48:26.081 --> 02:48:30.491 And, and most, you know, most of the rest of the, the problem was more in 02:48:30.491 --> 02:48:34.301 land, but when it got to the coast and it started to threaten the, uh, the oil 02:48:34.301 --> 02:48:37.361 and gas business that, you know, that's when the government realized that they 02:48:37.361 --> 02:48:39.101 really needed to do something about it. 02:48:39.881 --> 02:48:41.561 Um, so it was during that period 02:48:41.981 --> 02:48:46.001 Rupert Isaacson: and you had been deployed within the British forces as well. 02:48:46.001 --> 02:48:46.091 Mm-hmm. 02:48:46.601 --> 02:48:48.851 Um, I don't, I know you don't wanna go too much into it, but 02:48:48.851 --> 02:48:51.971 you had been, you, you had been deployed in the Falklands, correct. 02:48:51.971 --> 02:48:52.541 And then, yeah, that's 02:48:52.541 --> 02:48:52.841 Paul Illingworth: correct. 02:48:53.021 --> 02:48:53.351 Rupert Isaacson: Yeah. 02:48:53.801 --> 02:48:57.161 Um, and that was Special forces, so you'd taken that. 02:48:58.181 --> 02:49:00.821 Uh, experience over, um, absolutely. 02:49:01.331 --> 02:49:01.721 Yes. 02:49:03.101 --> 02:49:05.291 You know, Angola's a scary place. 02:49:05.351 --> 02:49:07.391 Um, or at least it certainly was. 02:49:07.391 --> 02:49:15.821 I remember staring down a barrel of a child soldiers, uh, uh, automatic 02:49:15.821 --> 02:49:19.991 that, um, with a, with a comp compan. 02:49:19.991 --> 02:49:23.381 I was, I had a traveling companion who was a German girl who we didn't 02:49:23.381 --> 02:49:24.761 realize at the time was bipolar. 02:49:25.211 --> 02:49:28.871 And she later sent me, 10 years later, sent me an apology letter. 02:49:29.141 --> 02:49:31.481 She almost got me killed like two, three times. 02:49:31.631 --> 02:49:32.981 And it was just her and a friend. 02:49:32.981 --> 02:49:34.511 And we, there was nothing going on with us. 02:49:34.511 --> 02:49:35.951 We were just travelers. 02:49:35.951 --> 02:49:38.231 I was writing a guidebook actually and being a journalist, and I 02:49:38.411 --> 02:49:40.841 just wanted people from youth hostels to split costs with. 02:49:41.381 --> 02:49:46.121 And, um, we ended up crossing the border into Angola, um, briefly. 02:49:46.121 --> 02:49:49.961 And, um, she got. 02:49:51.011 --> 02:49:52.661 Verbally aggressive with the wrong people. 02:49:52.961 --> 02:49:53.891 And I was like, what are you doing? 02:49:53.951 --> 02:49:54.731 You're gonna get us killed. 02:49:54.731 --> 02:49:55.511 You're gonna get us killed. 02:49:55.571 --> 02:49:57.401 You know, like, you really are gonna get us killed. 02:49:57.671 --> 02:49:58.811 You've got to stop. 02:49:59.441 --> 02:50:03.131 And, um, you know how that thing is, you, you're looking down 02:50:04.751 --> 02:50:08.321 the barrel of, of somebody who's 15 pointing that gun at you. 02:50:09.521 --> 02:50:12.791 And you know that whatever decision they're making is not gonna be rational. 02:50:13.271 --> 02:50:14.021 Um. 02:50:15.671 --> 02:50:17.171 Paul Illingworth: That's, that, that's, that's actually, 02:50:17.171 --> 02:50:18.971 you know, a, a good point. 02:50:18.971 --> 02:50:21.521 Something, something very, very similar happened to me. 02:50:21.521 --> 02:50:24.761 Funnily enough, not in Angola or Nigeria, it was actually Mozambique, 02:50:24.791 --> 02:50:26.591 but that was during the Civil War there. 02:50:26.771 --> 02:50:27.011 Yeah. 02:50:27.251 --> 02:50:30.071 That was also nice, you know, where, where they were are, I mean, a lot of 02:50:30.071 --> 02:50:33.431 the kids did have automatic weapons, and those were the ones that you 02:50:33.431 --> 02:50:35.591 really did have to be worried about. 02:50:35.651 --> 02:50:35.831 Yeah. 02:50:35.831 --> 02:50:36.941 There's no doubt about it. 02:50:36.941 --> 02:50:40.451 It, it, the regular soldiers, to a certain extent, weren't so bad 02:50:40.451 --> 02:50:43.301 the kids, the kids just really didn't know what they were doing. 02:50:43.391 --> 02:50:46.811 They had no training and, you know, they just saw, especially if you 02:50:46.811 --> 02:50:49.121 were being aggressive with them, you are lucky you didn't get shot. 02:50:49.451 --> 02:50:52.151 Rupert Isaacson: Yeah, well, I was, I did just a lot of apologizing, you know, 02:50:52.151 --> 02:50:56.806 and, uh, you know, um, you talk about having no fear, I had a lot of fear. 02:50:57.101 --> 02:51:01.271 I was catching myself, you know, because Yeah, yeah, yeah. 02:51:01.721 --> 02:51:06.341 Um, but yeah, as you say, um. 02:51:06.881 --> 02:51:10.661 The, the, the way through is sometimes there, there are ways to stand up 02:51:10.661 --> 02:51:13.061 for yourself and sometimes it's actually to talk your way through. 02:51:13.631 --> 02:51:14.411 Um, yeah. 02:51:14.651 --> 02:51:17.801 And in that case it was to sort of appeal to somebody's 02:51:17.801 --> 02:51:19.991 sense of reason and humanity. 02:51:20.771 --> 02:51:23.291 Um, okay. 02:51:23.291 --> 02:51:24.941 So you're in the Merchant Navy. 02:51:24.941 --> 02:51:28.361 You are not a mercenary in Angola. 02:51:32.561 --> 02:51:35.291 Um, at what point do you start aviating? 02:51:36.011 --> 02:51:38.291 Uh, I presume with jumping out of airplanes, that must have 02:51:38.291 --> 02:51:39.461 started with special forces. 02:51:39.611 --> 02:51:39.731 Paul Illingworth: Yeah. 02:51:40.811 --> 02:51:45.371 Uh, I, you know, I did do some helicopter flying, um, when I 02:51:45.371 --> 02:51:47.141 was in, uh, in the military. 02:51:47.681 --> 02:51:53.981 Um, didn't get into it too seriously, but, um, the aviating really just simply came 02:51:53.981 --> 02:51:58.781 about as a result of buying a skydiving business and inheriting an airplane. 02:51:58.871 --> 02:52:00.011 It came with an airplane. 02:52:00.011 --> 02:52:00.911 We had a pilot. 02:52:00.976 --> 02:52:01.266 Okay. 02:52:01.661 --> 02:52:02.961 And one of the things that I think. 02:52:03.761 --> 02:52:06.341 Jen and I realized pretty quickly, and we really knew 02:52:06.341 --> 02:52:07.901 this just from our experiences. 02:52:07.901 --> 02:52:08.196 Jen being your wife. 02:52:08.196 --> 02:52:08.396 Yeah. 02:52:08.531 --> 02:52:09.491 Jen being my wife. 02:52:09.491 --> 02:52:09.821 Yeah. 02:52:09.851 --> 02:52:14.321 Through our experience at other drop zones is if the pilot gets 02:52:14.321 --> 02:52:16.481 sick, you don't do any business. 02:52:16.931 --> 02:52:19.961 Most drop zones can't afford to hire more than one pilot. 02:52:19.961 --> 02:52:22.811 So if you, you know, literally if the pilot does get sick, if 02:52:22.811 --> 02:52:25.841 he gets a cold, he can't fly and then the business is shut down. 02:52:26.531 --> 02:52:31.931 So when we bought the business, we had a pilot, uh, that if you like, 02:52:31.931 --> 02:52:33.641 that was working for the business. 02:52:33.641 --> 02:52:37.841 He'd already, he told us fairly quickly he was looking to move into the airlines. 02:52:37.841 --> 02:52:41.651 'cause a lot of the times skydiving pilots use it to build hours, right. 02:52:41.651 --> 02:52:43.571 So they can then go and fly for the airlines. 02:52:43.571 --> 02:52:46.601 He told us that he was looking to go to the airline, so we 02:52:46.601 --> 02:52:47.831 needed to find another pilot. 02:52:48.986 --> 02:52:51.986 We found another pilot, luckily that stayed with us for almost 10 02:52:51.986 --> 02:52:57.506 years, but it did make us realize that while it's fairly easy to hire 02:52:57.506 --> 02:53:03.386 skydiving instructors, binding pilots is hard and keeping pilots is hard. 02:53:03.956 --> 02:53:07.736 So Jen and I decided to have flying lessons. 02:53:07.886 --> 02:53:09.296 We took flying lessons. 02:53:09.326 --> 02:53:10.916 We started in 2005. 02:53:10.916 --> 02:53:14.636 We both got our private pilot's license within about a year, nine months I 02:53:14.636 --> 02:53:18.236 think it was, brought ourselves a little sesor airplane because we were 02:53:18.236 --> 02:53:22.736 living in Houston and the business we owned was a two hour drive away, but 02:53:22.736 --> 02:53:24.206 it was only a half an hour flight. 02:53:24.206 --> 02:53:27.956 So we brought little airplane and then we could fly out there, uh, 02:53:27.986 --> 02:53:29.756 for the weekends with the kids. 02:53:29.876 --> 02:53:31.316 My kids were growing up at the time. 02:53:32.681 --> 02:53:37.631 I decided that rather than just stop at private pilot's license, I'd get my 02:53:37.631 --> 02:53:42.011 instrument rating, I'd get my multi-engine rating, I'd get my commercial. 02:53:42.401 --> 02:53:46.991 Uh, so basically I had all of the different ratings that I'd need to 02:53:46.991 --> 02:53:51.401 fly any of the airplanes we were ever likely to use in the skydiving business. 02:53:51.401 --> 02:53:56.051 And I went through all of those over the next year or so, got all those ratings. 02:53:56.621 --> 02:54:00.101 Um, and then as soon as I is, it used be 02:54:00.101 --> 02:54:00.371 Rupert Isaacson: so quick. 02:54:00.376 --> 02:54:01.871 Doesn't it take longer normally to get 02:54:01.871 --> 02:54:06.311 Paul Illingworth: No, I was, I was flying almost every day having lessons. 02:54:06.431 --> 02:54:06.761 Okay. 02:54:06.821 --> 02:54:10.091 You know, because, because we were running a business and it was 02:54:10.091 --> 02:54:13.331 important that I got the ratings, the cost of, I mean, it's, it's. 02:54:14.141 --> 02:54:17.321 Cost prohibitive for most people as well to do all of that because 02:54:17.321 --> 02:54:18.551 of the cost of the instruction. 02:54:19.031 --> 02:54:19.121 Mm-hmm. 02:54:19.121 --> 02:54:22.751 But I was fortunate in that the business was able to help with the cost. 02:54:23.051 --> 02:54:23.261 Mm-hmm. 02:54:23.321 --> 02:54:26.951 Um, and I literally, I would go and have a fly lesson at seven 02:54:26.951 --> 02:54:29.771 o'clock in the morning, finish at nine o'clock, go to the office. 02:54:30.191 --> 02:54:30.431 Right. 02:54:30.491 --> 02:54:32.711 Work in the office till seven, eight o'clock at night. 02:54:32.711 --> 02:54:35.021 Come home, go repeat the same, the same thing. 02:54:35.321 --> 02:54:39.491 It's, and then, like I said, weekends, we'd be going out to a skydiving business. 02:54:39.491 --> 02:54:43.601 So it's really, it was, you know, it was seven days a week working 02:54:43.631 --> 02:54:45.431 and very, very long hours as well. 02:54:45.731 --> 02:54:47.111 That's how we got into flying. 02:54:47.141 --> 02:54:49.721 That's how both Jen and I got, got into flying. 02:54:50.201 --> 02:54:51.491 We still fly today. 02:54:51.491 --> 02:54:55.031 You know, we still, we, we still own a little airplane, uh, that we fly. 02:54:55.031 --> 02:54:58.211 Even though we sold the skydiving business a number of years ago. 02:54:58.901 --> 02:55:01.391 We owned a small jet for a period of time. 02:55:01.391 --> 02:55:02.651 I mean, you've flown with us. 02:55:02.651 --> 02:55:03.131 Well, I have. 02:55:03.131 --> 02:55:03.671 It's my only. 02:55:04.041 --> 02:55:04.821 You know, uh, 02:55:04.821 --> 02:55:07.881 Rupert Isaacson: experience of flying a private jet, I'm very, very, very great. 02:55:07.881 --> 02:55:07.941 Yeah. 02:55:09.231 --> 02:55:09.471 Paul Illingworth: Yeah. 02:55:09.471 --> 02:55:13.551 We've done, you know, we've done a, a lot of stuff and, um, I mean, as I get older 02:55:13.551 --> 02:55:18.801 now, we, you know, I'm almost 70 now, we sold the jet because once you hit 70, it's 02:55:18.801 --> 02:55:24.051 pretty difficult to get insurance, um, to fly small pri, you know, private jets. 02:55:24.051 --> 02:55:26.931 So we, we are just scaling things down, but that's how, that's how 02:55:26.931 --> 02:55:29.121 we got into the aviation side. 02:55:29.121 --> 02:55:30.201 And I must say I love it. 02:55:31.086 --> 02:55:33.261 I, I always wanted to join the Royal Air Force. 02:55:33.261 --> 02:55:39.411 I think I said that very, very early on, um, because I had, I'd never 02:55:39.411 --> 02:55:42.891 flown at the time, but I just thought it looked like a lot of fun to do. 02:55:42.891 --> 02:55:42.951 Yeah. 02:55:42.981 --> 02:55:45.471 And it is a lot of fun and I really, really enjoy it. 02:55:45.471 --> 02:55:50.991 So it's, you know, it's one of the things I think that probably motorcycling and, 02:55:50.991 --> 02:55:55.161 and flying, I still get the most enjoyment out of, of pretty much everything we do. 02:55:55.221 --> 02:55:56.811 We still enjoy jumping as well. 02:55:56.811 --> 02:55:59.751 Just don't jump as much as, as, as we could do. 02:56:01.626 --> 02:56:01.846 Rupert Isaacson: So. 02:56:04.076 --> 02:56:08.366 Then you, you go from the Merchant Navy into the oil and gas business and you 02:56:08.426 --> 02:56:08.786 Paul Illingworth: Yeah, 02:56:08.966 --> 02:56:10.136 Rupert Isaacson: you, you do Well. 02:56:10.616 --> 02:56:13.886 Paul Illingworth: Um, and so let, let's just, let's talk about that. 02:56:13.916 --> 02:56:14.486 Okay? 02:56:14.486 --> 02:56:14.496 Yeah. 02:56:14.546 --> 02:56:14.816 Yeah. 02:56:14.816 --> 02:56:15.476 The same thing. 02:56:15.476 --> 02:56:16.796 It's the same thing again. 02:56:16.976 --> 02:56:25.376 Um, I wanted, I wanted to, I wanted basically to get to a point where 02:56:25.376 --> 02:56:26.786 I was caption in my own ship. 02:56:26.816 --> 02:56:28.166 That was my target. 02:56:28.886 --> 02:56:32.636 And when I went in the Navy, I can remember way, way 02:56:32.636 --> 02:56:34.016 before I joined the Navy. 02:56:34.436 --> 02:56:36.776 There was a guy that was playing at my rugby club. 02:56:36.776 --> 02:56:39.506 I was probably 14 years old, 14 or 15. 02:56:39.506 --> 02:56:44.126 He was a captain in the Merchant Navy, and he was earning, and I 02:56:44.126 --> 02:56:46.016 remember this like it was yesterday. 02:56:46.016 --> 02:56:48.206 He was earning 5,000 pounds a year. 02:56:48.236 --> 02:56:49.616 That was a hundred pounds a week. 02:56:49.616 --> 02:56:52.046 That was a huge amount of money. 02:56:52.166 --> 02:56:52.706 I was earning 10. 02:56:52.706 --> 02:56:54.086 What year was that? 02:56:54.086 --> 02:56:54.416 Would that have been 70? 02:56:54.416 --> 02:56:57.926 That, that, that would've been in, uh, let me think. 02:56:57.926 --> 02:56:59.036 60. 02:57:00.116 --> 02:57:01.586 69 70. 02:57:01.766 --> 02:57:02.126 Oh yeah. 02:57:02.126 --> 02:57:02.426 That would've 02:57:02.426 --> 02:57:03.086 Rupert Isaacson: been a lot of money. 02:57:03.176 --> 02:57:04.166 Paul Illingworth: Yeah, it was a lot of money. 02:57:04.316 --> 02:57:04.376 Yeah. 02:57:04.376 --> 02:57:07.316 I was earning 10 shillings a week till in newspapers. 02:57:07.316 --> 02:57:09.446 He was earning a hundred pounds a week as a captain. 02:57:09.446 --> 02:57:13.226 So ultimately my target was to get to be captain. 02:57:13.256 --> 02:57:15.746 'cause I thought, well, you know, I've not had any money growing up, but 02:57:15.746 --> 02:57:19.286 I'll be doing fairly well because he, you know, he drove a nice sports car. 02:57:19.286 --> 02:57:22.286 I think he had a knee type jag and, you know, and he seemed 02:57:22.286 --> 02:57:23.576 to live very comfortably. 02:57:23.576 --> 02:57:26.396 So that was always really my target was to become a captain. 02:57:26.396 --> 02:57:26.486 Mm-hmm. 02:57:27.116 --> 02:57:34.286 Um, once I transitioned into a merchant Navy, 1984, I got, I went 02:57:34.286 --> 02:57:38.366 to college for six months and I passed my captain's license test. 02:57:38.786 --> 02:57:43.856 So from 1984, I had a license to captain any ship of any 02:57:43.856 --> 02:57:45.386 size, anywhere in the world. 02:57:46.136 --> 02:57:46.646 Um. 02:57:47.801 --> 02:57:51.161 And at the time the company that I was working for, which was an 02:57:51.161 --> 02:57:55.031 American offshore company, were desperately short of captains. 02:57:55.511 --> 02:57:59.621 Uh, and I got an opportunity to move from first officer to captain, 02:57:59.621 --> 02:58:01.601 working on the old Vig supply boats. 02:58:02.171 --> 02:58:06.761 So I took that opportunity, um, and then I ended up moving from 02:58:06.761 --> 02:58:08.471 West Africa into the North Sea. 02:58:08.471 --> 02:58:11.831 So I was captain of supply boats working the North Sea and some of 02:58:11.831 --> 02:58:16.031 the most horrendous weather you'll ever I can imagine, possibly imagine. 02:58:16.721 --> 02:58:22.241 And I did that, uh, until, um, about 1990. 02:58:22.961 --> 02:58:27.011 But in the interim period of time with a couple of other guys in Aberdeen, 02:58:27.461 --> 02:58:32.861 um, I end and we started our own company, a marine consultancy company. 02:58:33.461 --> 02:58:38.471 Um, and what we were doing was we were providing, uh, tow masters to 02:58:38.471 --> 02:58:40.511 move oil rigs around the North Sea. 02:58:41.201 --> 02:58:43.061 So I moved from being captain of a. 02:58:43.931 --> 02:58:47.771 I worked as captain on the oil rigs in the Middle East for a couple of years. 02:58:48.191 --> 02:58:52.391 Then I went back to the North Sea working for my own company with 02:58:52.391 --> 02:58:54.161 these, with these two other gentlemen. 02:58:54.581 --> 02:58:59.111 Um, and we set the company up and we, we very, we've become very, very 02:58:59.111 --> 02:59:03.881 successful at renting our services out to move oil rigs around to the 02:59:03.881 --> 02:59:08.141 point where we ended up having to start hiring people to work for us. 02:59:08.561 --> 02:59:10.331 So then the company started to grow. 02:59:11.591 --> 02:59:16.271 Uh, I think the last, the last job I did when I was actually working on, on 02:59:16.271 --> 02:59:20.861 the oil rig, the big tugs, because I was moving oil rigs around as a, as a tow 02:59:20.861 --> 02:59:23.291 master at the time was probably 1990. 02:59:24.041 --> 02:59:30.311 Um, and then there was an opportunity, um, shortly thereafter to go and 02:59:30.311 --> 02:59:34.901 work for a small Canadian oil company as a marine superintendent. 02:59:34.901 --> 02:59:39.701 So, and this was in Aberdeen, so I'm still working, I'm managing director of my own. 02:59:41.036 --> 02:59:45.086 Consultancy company, they needed a marine superintendent. 02:59:45.086 --> 02:59:50.726 So we literally contracted my services to this small Canadian 02:59:50.726 --> 02:59:53.426 company as a marine superintendent. 02:59:54.056 --> 02:59:57.116 And that's how I ended up, I did some work in the North Sea 02:59:57.116 --> 03:00:01.676 installing, uh, platforms in the North Sea oil rig platforms for them. 03:00:02.306 --> 03:00:05.216 And they also had a license in Angola. 03:00:05.216 --> 03:00:09.896 And that's how I ended up in Angola, working for them down in Angola, meeting 03:00:09.896 --> 03:00:14.036 the, the government officials from Sonal and doing and doing that sort of stuff. 03:00:14.756 --> 03:00:24.116 So I ran that company as managing director for 13 years until 1998 when I ended up. 03:00:24.836 --> 03:00:29.936 As a result of meeting some guys, funnily enough in Angola, um, 03:00:30.716 --> 03:00:34.496 getting an opportunity to come to Houston and I'd been in Aberdeen 03:00:34.496 --> 03:00:35.996 for eight years at that time. 03:00:36.146 --> 03:00:39.926 Um, I wanted to take the company International. 03:00:39.986 --> 03:00:42.716 My two partners did not want to go international. 03:00:42.716 --> 03:00:45.896 They wanted to stay in the uk So we started to come to a 03:00:45.896 --> 03:00:47.666 point where we were gonna split. 03:00:48.476 --> 03:00:53.786 Um, the opportunity came up for me to go to Houston, so I ended up going to 03:00:53.786 --> 03:00:58.796 Houston as a consultant working for this Singaporean based company to set up the 03:00:58.796 --> 03:01:00.536 business development office for them. 03:01:01.136 --> 03:01:06.176 And that was really an opportunity for me to just simply say, okay, I like it here. 03:01:06.176 --> 03:01:07.136 I'm gonna stay here. 03:01:07.136 --> 03:01:11.846 They're gonna pay me, well, I'll leave the UK consultancy company. 03:01:12.206 --> 03:01:16.436 I'll just step back, keep my shares in the company, but not have anything 03:01:16.436 --> 03:01:17.786 to do with the day-to-day running. 03:01:17.816 --> 03:01:19.526 That's how I ended up in the us 03:01:19.916 --> 03:01:20.366 Rupert Isaacson: Right. 03:01:21.116 --> 03:01:21.746 Paul Illingworth: So. 03:01:22.331 --> 03:01:26.051 Rupert Isaacson: You're talking about moving, um, all platforms 03:01:26.051 --> 03:01:31.331 around and as if that's an easy thing to do in the North Sea. 03:01:31.781 --> 03:01:32.051 Paul Illingworth: Yeah. 03:01:32.231 --> 03:01:34.811 Rupert Isaacson: As you said, I've seen, I've seen what the weather can be. 03:01:35.051 --> 03:01:36.371 You talk about not being afraid. 03:01:36.371 --> 03:01:40.811 You must have been afraid sometimes in those storms that the ship might go down. 03:01:41.411 --> 03:01:42.041 Not 03:01:42.821 --> 03:01:46.601 Paul Illingworth: I was, I, there, there's a, there was a couple of 03:01:46.601 --> 03:01:49.661 opportunities where I never thought I'd ever see weather worse than that. 03:01:49.661 --> 03:01:51.341 And then there was weather worse than that. 03:01:51.791 --> 03:01:53.681 I was never bothered about a ship going down. 03:01:54.041 --> 03:01:57.701 And one of the things I should probably point out is that, remember 03:01:57.701 --> 03:02:00.581 I told you I had an older cousin who was 12 years older than me. 03:02:00.941 --> 03:02:05.291 I also had another cousin that was four years older than me, Neil, 03:02:05.681 --> 03:02:09.371 he was actually on an offshore supply boat that did go down in the 03:02:09.371 --> 03:02:11.501 Mediterranean and he was lost at sea. 03:02:12.071 --> 03:02:12.101 Mm. 03:02:12.101 --> 03:02:14.351 The ship, the ship just disappeared. 03:02:14.651 --> 03:02:15.011 Wow. 03:02:15.431 --> 03:02:16.751 And that was in the Mediterranean. 03:02:16.871 --> 03:02:17.261 Rupert Isaacson: Wow. 03:02:17.321 --> 03:02:19.451 You don't expect to see that kind of weather. 03:02:19.511 --> 03:02:21.881 Paul Illingworth: And, and I'd been in the Navy, I think 03:02:21.881 --> 03:02:23.261 two years when that happened. 03:02:23.381 --> 03:02:29.411 And, you know, it, it was, it, it really brought it home with the vulnerability. 03:02:29.411 --> 03:02:32.981 Now, when I was on my own ship as captain working in the North Sea, we 03:02:32.981 --> 03:02:34.601 went out in some horrendous weather. 03:02:34.601 --> 03:02:37.511 There was, I remember there was one Christmas where the 03:02:37.511 --> 03:02:39.401 storms were really, really bad. 03:02:39.581 --> 03:02:44.501 Um, and I was, I was flown out by helicopter to a rig, which had broken 03:02:44.501 --> 03:02:50.891 a couple of his moorings to try to be able to, uh, to get some, some, uh, tugs 03:02:50.891 --> 03:02:55.181 attached to the rig so we could actually pull it away from the platform that 03:02:55.181 --> 03:02:56.981 it was gonna end up drifting towards. 03:02:57.581 --> 03:03:00.431 Um, that was some of the worst weather that I ever saw when I 03:03:00.431 --> 03:03:02.111 was captain on a ship myself. 03:03:02.111 --> 03:03:04.991 We went out in Force 10 a couple of times from Aberdeen. 03:03:05.621 --> 03:03:08.921 I was never bothered about the ship going down. 03:03:09.011 --> 03:03:09.581 Um. 03:03:10.856 --> 03:03:11.696 Could it have happened? 03:03:11.696 --> 03:03:12.086 Yes. 03:03:12.086 --> 03:03:17.666 But I think, I guess that I felt that my superior seamanship skills were 03:03:17.666 --> 03:03:20.876 able to deal with anything that the weather threw out us at the time. 03:03:21.086 --> 03:03:23.906 Um, and again, I think I was, I was very, very lucky. 03:03:23.966 --> 03:03:25.946 We never got into a serious situation. 03:03:26.696 --> 03:03:29.816 Um, but I mean, I, that there was a lot of really, really 03:03:29.816 --> 03:03:31.346 nasty things happened out there. 03:03:31.826 --> 03:03:36.866 I'll tell you what, you know, one time I was a bit twitchy, I was, one 03:03:36.866 --> 03:03:40.616 of the things that I had to do was move jack up rigs alongside platforms. 03:03:41.126 --> 03:03:44.216 Um, and when you're moving a jack up rig alongside a platform, and 03:03:44.216 --> 03:03:45.956 Jack up rig basically is an oil rig. 03:03:45.956 --> 03:03:50.036 They work in relatively shallow water up to about 150, two a hundred feet. 03:03:50.066 --> 03:03:52.916 They go deeper now, but in those days, 152 feet. 03:03:53.606 --> 03:03:57.956 And it's like, it's, it's a, it's a triangular shaped rig that has three legs. 03:03:58.346 --> 03:04:02.876 It floats with the legs jacked up, and then you put it to 03:04:02.876 --> 03:04:03.986 wherever you want it to go. 03:04:03.986 --> 03:04:05.906 And there's normally three tugs attached. 03:04:05.906 --> 03:04:07.316 One at one at each corner. 03:04:07.316 --> 03:04:11.456 'cause it's a triangle and you move it where you want to go with the tugs. 03:04:11.456 --> 03:04:12.986 And then you lower the legs down. 03:04:12.986 --> 03:04:17.276 The legs, hit the sea bed, and they raise the rig up off, off the sea. 03:04:17.276 --> 03:04:18.356 It literally comes up. 03:04:18.596 --> 03:04:21.086 So you have a gap between the sea and the bottom of the rig. 03:04:21.086 --> 03:04:22.016 It's called the air gap. 03:04:22.766 --> 03:04:26.006 Now, one of the things we had to do in the southern part of the North 03:04:26.006 --> 03:04:31.046 Sea was to actually move these jack up rigs alongside a fixed platform. 03:04:31.826 --> 03:04:35.726 So now you've got something that is attached to the seabed that 03:04:35.726 --> 03:04:39.686 has accommodation on top and it's got wells going through it. 03:04:39.686 --> 03:04:43.736 And the jack up rig has to go right up close to that. 03:04:43.976 --> 03:04:45.146 You jack it up. 03:04:45.746 --> 03:04:49.856 It has a drilling deck that then can levers over the top of the 03:04:49.856 --> 03:04:52.916 platform so they can get the drilling equipment down the well. 03:04:54.086 --> 03:04:55.976 You have to move those rigs. 03:04:57.206 --> 03:05:01.976 Four to six feet away from the legs of the fixed platform. 03:05:02.996 --> 03:05:08.846 So the accuracy, the way that we do this is a combination of using anchors 03:05:08.846 --> 03:05:14.396 and tugs, but you are literally moving the rig six inches at a time. 03:05:14.876 --> 03:05:20.936 So I'm giving instructions to one of the tugs to pull six inches in on a toe line. 03:05:20.936 --> 03:05:23.186 Another one, pull six inches in here. 03:05:24.146 --> 03:05:28.166 That is the most, I won't say it's scary, it's nerve wracking 03:05:28.946 --> 03:05:31.166 because there's no room for error. 03:05:31.931 --> 03:05:32.861 Absolutely no. 03:05:33.161 --> 03:05:36.131 And the way that we used to tell if we were in the right place is quite funny. 03:05:36.671 --> 03:05:39.671 We have what we called surveyors on board, and the surveyors 03:05:39.671 --> 03:05:41.381 were technical guys, okay? 03:05:41.771 --> 03:05:45.131 We didn't have, uh, sat nav or anything like that. 03:05:45.791 --> 03:05:49.631 So in order to tell whether or not we were in the right place on the platform, 03:05:49.661 --> 03:05:52.991 'cause you had to get in exactly the right place, we'd get two aluminum 03:05:52.991 --> 03:05:57.821 ladders, stick them out the back of the rig with a scaffolding pole going 03:05:57.821 --> 03:05:59.711 across and a couple of paint marks. 03:06:00.161 --> 03:06:05.411 And when that scaffolding po and the paint marks touched the legs of the platform, 03:06:05.411 --> 03:06:06.881 we knew we were in the right place. 03:06:08.266 --> 03:06:09.486 That's how technical, 03:06:09.586 --> 03:06:12.401 Rupert Isaacson: that's that technical and what would happen if you got it wrong. 03:06:13.346 --> 03:06:16.256 Paul Illingworth: Uh, you'd end up hitting the rig would hit the platform 03:06:16.706 --> 03:06:18.926 and that was really, really bad. 03:06:18.986 --> 03:06:22.676 Because, because, because if you have make contact with a platform 03:06:22.676 --> 03:06:24.116 or the rig, you can't do anything. 03:06:24.116 --> 03:06:25.196 You have to pull away. 03:06:25.466 --> 03:06:30.116 You then have to, to fly a surveyor out to survey the rig to make 03:06:30.116 --> 03:06:31.586 sure it doesn't have any damage. 03:06:32.066 --> 03:06:36.356 You have to get divers to do NDT on the platform to make sure you haven't damaged 03:06:36.356 --> 03:06:38.126 the integrity of the, of the platform. 03:06:38.126 --> 03:06:41.606 'cause even if you say, oh, we just kissed it, we just touched it. 03:06:41.606 --> 03:06:42.236 Doesn't matter. 03:06:42.686 --> 03:06:43.616 Game is off. 03:06:43.796 --> 03:06:45.146 Rig gets pulled away. 03:06:45.356 --> 03:06:50.606 Oil company that you're working for get really angry because you've now 03:06:50.606 --> 03:06:53.756 got a rig that's costing them a hundred thousand dollars a day and it's not 03:06:53.756 --> 03:06:55.826 doing anything because you've screwed up. 03:06:57.866 --> 03:06:58.226 Rupert Isaacson: Okay. 03:06:58.226 --> 03:06:59.456 And you're doing this in rough weather. 03:06:59.966 --> 03:07:00.296 Paul Illingworth: Yeah. 03:07:00.596 --> 03:07:00.926 Yeah. 03:07:01.226 --> 03:07:01.496 Rupert Isaacson: Rough 03:07:01.496 --> 03:07:01.826 Paul Illingworth: weather. 03:07:01.826 --> 03:07:02.336 Rupert Isaacson: How, how'd you do it? 03:07:02.336 --> 03:07:02.876 How'd you do it? 03:07:02.876 --> 03:07:05.186 How'd you get that level of accuracy in rough weather when the 03:07:05.366 --> 03:07:06.776 waves are just tossing you about? 03:07:06.986 --> 03:07:07.366 Paul Illingworth: Well, I mean. 03:07:08.126 --> 03:07:11.576 In the Southern North Sea, the current is a, is a major issue as well. 03:07:11.576 --> 03:07:15.596 So you have to wait for what they call slack water, which occurs every six hours. 03:07:16.346 --> 03:07:20.216 And then there is a, there is a point with the weather where you 03:07:20.216 --> 03:07:21.686 just say, no, we can't do it. 03:07:22.046 --> 03:07:22.346 Okay. 03:07:22.526 --> 03:07:26.636 But, you know, so there's a maximum wave height because obviously if you are 03:07:26.636 --> 03:07:29.906 moving up and down and you're surging back and forward, you gotta be really, 03:07:29.906 --> 03:07:31.406 really careful with what you're doing. 03:07:31.946 --> 03:07:34.826 Um, so you do get to the point where if the weather's really 03:07:34.826 --> 03:07:36.086 bad, you just have to stop. 03:07:36.596 --> 03:07:36.866 Okay. 03:07:37.166 --> 03:07:39.806 And it's the same in the Northern North Sea when you're moving 03:07:39.806 --> 03:07:43.166 the semi-submersible rigs around that float and have anchors. 03:07:43.466 --> 03:07:46.676 You get to the point where when the weather, the waves get beyond 03:07:46.676 --> 03:07:50.936 a certain height, you just have to stop, hold position and wait for 03:07:50.936 --> 03:07:52.706 the weather to, to calm down a bit. 03:07:53.306 --> 03:07:53.666 Rupert Isaacson: Okay. 03:07:54.116 --> 03:07:57.776 So yeah, went back to the subject of fear and you said, you know, it's nerve 03:07:57.776 --> 03:08:00.506 wracking that, that that's another whole. 03:08:01.286 --> 03:08:04.916 Thing with fear is that, well, there's fear for your own personal 03:08:04.916 --> 03:08:06.536 safety, but then there's also fear. 03:08:06.806 --> 03:08:07.736 Paul Illingworth: Fear of damage. 03:08:07.946 --> 03:08:11.546 Rupert Isaacson: Well, and fear of, um, effing up. 03:08:11.551 --> 03:08:11.961 Screwing up. 03:08:12.071 --> 03:08:12.361 Yeah. 03:08:12.481 --> 03:08:13.201 Screwing up. 03:08:13.201 --> 03:08:13.211 Yeah. 03:08:13.766 --> 03:08:16.616 When it comes down to is responsibility, like these types 03:08:16.616 --> 03:08:19.076 of job that you're talking about, they're ver they're very difficult. 03:08:19.856 --> 03:08:22.556 And you've got to manage these natural conditions. 03:08:22.556 --> 03:08:26.966 You've got to manage groups of people who are, you know, doing 03:08:26.966 --> 03:08:29.906 this stuff, and that there's gonna naturally be human error in there, 03:08:30.416 --> 03:08:32.306 not to mention the weather, you know? 03:08:33.236 --> 03:08:39.446 So do you think that, you know, that's a lot of pressure to handle. 03:08:40.016 --> 03:08:40.226 Paul Illingworth: Mm-hmm. 03:08:42.266 --> 03:08:45.566 Rupert Isaacson: Do you think that it really, if you, if you look at where were 03:08:45.566 --> 03:08:53.546 the skills that you built to be able to handle that sort of pressure, um, that you 03:08:53.546 --> 03:08:55.376 built them sort of in the paper rounds. 03:08:55.436 --> 03:08:56.066 Age 10. 03:08:56.066 --> 03:08:56.156 Yes. 03:08:57.476 --> 03:08:58.181 Is that, is that where it all began? 03:08:59.891 --> 03:09:01.061 Paul Illingworth: Standing up for yourself. 03:09:01.061 --> 03:09:05.051 And, and I mean, it's really just, if you're gonna take on a job that has 03:09:05.051 --> 03:09:09.671 that sort of level of responsibility, you have got to have a huge 03:09:09.671 --> 03:09:11.291 amount of confidence in yourself. 03:09:11.621 --> 03:09:12.101 Mm-hmm. 03:09:12.311 --> 03:09:18.311 And you know, a as I said, one of the things that we were doing was we were 03:09:18.311 --> 03:09:21.011 hiring people to work as tow masters. 03:09:21.071 --> 03:09:23.291 Well, you don't just pull these guys off the street. 03:09:24.431 --> 03:09:24.491 No. 03:09:24.491 --> 03:09:26.111 They have got to be trained. 03:09:26.921 --> 03:09:31.151 So, um, every single one of the people that we hired was 03:09:31.151 --> 03:09:33.041 a cer, a qualified captain. 03:09:33.041 --> 03:09:34.691 They all had captains licenses. 03:09:34.691 --> 03:09:38.711 They thought most of them had worked as captain on supply boats or on big tugs. 03:09:38.711 --> 03:09:42.431 They knew what moving all rigs around was all about, but 03:09:42.431 --> 03:09:43.841 you still had to train them. 03:09:44.471 --> 03:09:49.301 So if you like, because I had my own company, I became a 03:09:49.301 --> 03:09:51.641 tow master instructor per se. 03:09:52.241 --> 03:09:52.661 And. 03:09:53.516 --> 03:09:57.566 In order to be able to do, to do that type of job with a very, very high 03:09:57.566 --> 03:10:00.176 level of responsibility, we're, you know, we're talking about hundreds 03:10:00.176 --> 03:10:04.076 and hundreds of thousands of dollars worth of equipment and potential 03:10:04.076 --> 03:10:07.106 damage, not necessarily lives at stake. 03:10:07.136 --> 03:10:12.056 Because, because it, it wasn't that type of a job, but you've gotta have a lot of 03:10:12.056 --> 03:10:17.156 confidence in yourself and you've gotta not be afraid of what you're doing in 03:10:17.156 --> 03:10:18.836 order to be able to do it successfully. 03:10:18.836 --> 03:10:18.926 Right? 03:10:18.956 --> 03:10:25.256 And in all, you've also gotta have the patience and the communication 03:10:25.256 --> 03:10:29.046 skills to be able to pass that onto somebody when you're training them. 03:10:29.981 --> 03:10:36.716 Um, that the self-confidence definitely came, it started. 03:10:37.721 --> 03:10:43.331 With me having to go out at five o'clock in the morning in the UK in the winter 03:10:43.331 --> 03:10:48.401 when it was dark on my bicycle and go and deliver newspapers, and I was delivering 03:10:48.401 --> 03:10:51.221 newspapers in the snow and in the rain. 03:10:51.581 --> 03:10:51.881 Mm-hmm. 03:10:52.241 --> 03:10:57.161 And actually not having that was probably the most fearful thing. 03:10:57.221 --> 03:11:00.341 Uh, you know, as a, a 10-year-old actually going out in the dark on a 03:11:00.341 --> 03:11:04.001 bicycle and having to go onto a house in estate and walk up people's drives with 03:11:04.001 --> 03:11:05.981 dogs barking and deliver newspapers. 03:11:06.311 --> 03:11:06.611 Hmm. 03:11:06.731 --> 03:11:11.651 And it, it built up a certain amount of self-confidence, almost to the 03:11:11.651 --> 03:11:13.841 point where you think, screw this. 03:11:13.841 --> 03:11:16.961 You know, I mean, I can do this, I can do pretty much anything. 03:11:17.051 --> 03:11:22.961 And one of the things I will say to you is I've never been, 03:11:25.931 --> 03:11:26.831 how can I put this? 03:11:27.101 --> 03:11:29.711 There hasn't been a situation where somebody's asked me if I could 03:11:29.711 --> 03:11:32.891 do something where I've said, no. 03:11:35.081 --> 03:11:37.301 I might have said, I have to think about it. 03:11:37.631 --> 03:11:38.741 And I've done that a lot. 03:11:39.191 --> 03:11:42.971 But in most cases, if somebody's asked me to do something, if I 03:11:42.971 --> 03:11:46.421 haven't got the skills to do it, I can figure out how to do it. 03:11:46.451 --> 03:11:48.101 'cause I'm very good at figuring things out. 03:11:48.971 --> 03:11:53.111 But if it's just something that's completely off, off the wall, then I 03:11:53.111 --> 03:11:55.271 would simply say, I'll think about it. 03:11:55.541 --> 03:11:59.501 Which just really means no, I probably won't do it, but I'm gonna think about it. 03:11:59.741 --> 03:12:04.391 'cause I like to be able to process things and, and that really does, it does 03:12:04.391 --> 03:12:06.521 come down, there's no doubt about it. 03:12:07.931 --> 03:12:11.591 Having that paper round and having to go out to work at such an early age 03:12:11.621 --> 03:12:13.751 was, it was a great character builder. 03:12:13.901 --> 03:12:15.191 There's no doubt about that. 03:12:15.491 --> 03:12:16.451 And I did that. 03:12:16.871 --> 03:12:18.971 I did that every day for six years. 03:12:19.241 --> 03:12:23.681 I stopped my paper around the day I left the UK to join the Navy. 03:12:24.791 --> 03:12:25.181 Rupert Isaacson: Wow. 03:12:25.811 --> 03:12:27.236 I'm also thinking about, um. 03:12:29.606 --> 03:12:32.996 The, you, you talked about communication skills, and that's important too, 03:12:33.356 --> 03:12:38.486 because it's not enough to be big and tough or even competent. 03:12:38.846 --> 03:12:38.906 Paul Illingworth: No. 03:12:38.906 --> 03:12:39.116 If you're 03:12:39.116 --> 03:12:42.626 Rupert Isaacson: going to manage teams, you can't be going around scaring 03:12:42.866 --> 03:12:46.886 your team because then you, there's no job getting rather the opposite. 03:12:46.886 --> 03:12:49.406 They've got to feel that the big scary guy has their back. 03:12:49.976 --> 03:12:56.456 Um, do you feel, do you think that the, um, do you think that the 03:12:56.456 --> 03:12:59.486 communication skills came with having to build that rugby team? 03:13:00.026 --> 03:13:00.206 Paul Illingworth: Yes. 03:13:01.721 --> 03:13:07.061 Absolutely, because I didn't, I didn't get, learn any communication skills from 03:13:07.061 --> 03:13:09.041 being at home with Doesn't sound like 03:13:09.256 --> 03:13:09.376 Rupert Isaacson: it. 03:13:09.676 --> 03:13:11.696 No, I mean, I, although your mom sounds very warm. 03:13:11.796 --> 03:13:13.211 My, my mom sounds, my mom was 03:13:13.211 --> 03:13:14.141 Paul Illingworth: really, really great. 03:13:14.141 --> 03:13:18.401 She was, she was a, a great help to me, but we weren't the sort of family 03:13:18.401 --> 03:13:22.811 that we sat around in the evening, if you like, drinking tea and chatting 03:13:22.811 --> 03:13:24.221 about what we did during the day. 03:13:24.221 --> 03:13:24.281 Yeah. 03:13:24.371 --> 03:13:25.841 That just, that didn't happen. 03:13:25.871 --> 03:13:30.881 It was, it was being at school, playing rugby with the team, with the lads. 03:13:30.881 --> 03:13:34.031 They were, you know, they were the closest group that we had 03:13:34.031 --> 03:13:36.281 as any sports team really. 03:13:36.671 --> 03:13:39.221 And then taking those communication skills. 03:13:39.281 --> 03:13:45.791 I mean, I was, I was assessed very, very early on after I joined the Navy 03:13:45.791 --> 03:13:48.941 as having, uh, natural leadership. 03:13:49.391 --> 03:13:54.491 Qualities because I was able to, to guide people and I, and I was 03:13:54.491 --> 03:13:56.171 able to communicate with people. 03:13:56.711 --> 03:14:01.211 So I was actually given the opportunity to accelerate through the whole Navy 03:14:01.391 --> 03:14:05.141 process very, very quickly because I had that ability to be able to talk 03:14:05.141 --> 03:14:09.431 to people, to be able to communicate and be able to get over what I 03:14:09.431 --> 03:14:11.351 was trying to communicate quickly. 03:14:11.891 --> 03:14:12.131 Right. 03:14:12.191 --> 03:14:12.641 Um, 03:14:14.621 --> 03:14:17.981 Rupert Isaacson: so let's dive back to where we began. 03:14:18.041 --> 03:14:23.381 We have this epidemic of young men who can't get out of the basement, 03:14:23.651 --> 03:14:24.071 Paul Illingworth: who 03:14:24.131 --> 03:14:29.051 Rupert Isaacson: are maybe doing playing video games that simulate some 03:14:29.051 --> 03:14:34.301 of the adventures that you might have actually had in real life, um, and 03:14:36.551 --> 03:14:42.911 are lacking self-confidence on a level that is disabling. 03:14:46.446 --> 03:14:48.641 What do we do about this? 03:14:51.296 --> 03:14:54.536 Paul Illingworth: Uh, that's a 10, $10 million question, isn't it? 03:14:55.106 --> 03:15:00.086 Um, you know, 10-year-old kids nowadays can't go out and deliver papers. 03:15:00.091 --> 03:15:00.806 No, no. 03:15:00.806 --> 03:15:01.166 They can't. 03:15:01.166 --> 03:15:02.066 It's a different world, you know. 03:15:02.126 --> 03:15:02.336 Yeah. 03:15:02.336 --> 03:15:03.956 You know, you, you just can't do it. 03:15:03.956 --> 03:15:07.766 I mean, you know, when my kids were growing up, I was, I was, to be quite 03:15:07.766 --> 03:15:11.816 honest with you, quite scared of them even just going and riding their bicycles 03:15:12.116 --> 03:15:13.246 in our sub subdivision in Houston. 03:15:13.246 --> 03:15:13.431 Sure. 03:15:13.531 --> 03:15:16.556 You know, in Houston, you know, it's as simple as that. 03:15:16.796 --> 03:15:19.106 But I think what you've gotta do is, 03:15:22.346 --> 03:15:26.366 I think it really comes down to you've got to take an interest in 03:15:26.366 --> 03:15:28.286 something that community is doing. 03:15:28.826 --> 03:15:29.006 Okay. 03:15:29.036 --> 03:15:29.906 Um, that's interesting. 03:15:29.981 --> 03:15:33.356 And, and, you know, that can be through a club. 03:15:33.866 --> 03:15:34.226 Mm-hmm. 03:15:34.316 --> 03:15:38.876 YMCA, you know, I, I, again, it's a Christian association. 03:15:39.146 --> 03:15:43.346 I think a lot of people, certainly where I live, I mean, I live in, in 03:15:43.376 --> 03:15:45.056 Texas in what they call the Bible Belt. 03:15:45.086 --> 03:15:48.476 I'm not religious person myself, but I know that. 03:15:49.241 --> 03:15:55.301 The young lads I've met here that do extremely well for themselves. 03:15:55.301 --> 03:16:00.221 They are Christians and the religious, the, the religious side 03:16:00.221 --> 03:16:04.841 of things over here, they go to church, which is a club in effect, 03:16:04.901 --> 03:16:06.881 they communicate with other people. 03:16:07.451 --> 03:16:11.981 Um, and I'm talking about a lot of the young guys around here 03:16:11.981 --> 03:16:15.821 that grow up on farms or on ranches and do things like that. 03:16:15.821 --> 03:16:16.841 They get themselves out. 03:16:16.871 --> 03:16:19.721 They don't get the opportunity to sit around watching television 03:16:19.721 --> 03:16:21.936 or playing computer games 'cause they're out doing stuff. 03:16:21.936 --> 03:16:22.416 They're, 03:16:22.751 --> 03:16:27.731 Rupert Isaacson: exactly, and I mean, look, the life that we leave Paul, it's 03:16:27.731 --> 03:16:32.201 not, it's not, um, representative anymore. 03:16:32.261 --> 03:16:35.651 I mean, you know, no, my kids also are out on the farm working with 03:16:35.651 --> 03:16:42.041 horses and doing stuff and, you know, um, I don't force them to do it, 03:16:42.251 --> 03:16:45.731 but there's just stuff to do, so, and it's kind of interesting to do. 03:16:45.731 --> 03:16:46.391 So why wouldn't you? 03:16:47.081 --> 03:16:47.651 Um. 03:16:48.566 --> 03:16:54.206 But if you are living in, as you said, you know, you, you were scared 03:16:54.206 --> 03:16:59.096 when your kids were going out in a subdivision in, um, in Houston. 03:16:59.216 --> 03:17:01.736 And that's of course where most people are is, is in those 03:17:01.736 --> 03:17:03.056 types of suburban environments. 03:17:03.056 --> 03:17:05.966 And you kids are not allowed to work anymore. 03:17:05.996 --> 03:17:10.646 Um, it's also not terribly is is less safe now than it used to be. 03:17:11.126 --> 03:17:11.966 Um, 03:17:13.976 --> 03:17:18.026 but I like what you said about involvement in community. 03:17:18.716 --> 03:17:18.836 Yeah. 03:17:18.836 --> 03:17:21.956 'cause if, if you haven't got a farm or a ranch to be part of, well 03:17:22.106 --> 03:17:23.396 that just doesn't exist for you. 03:17:24.536 --> 03:17:27.896 But if you're growing up in a, let's say you're on a housing state 03:17:27.896 --> 03:17:29.486 today, in, let, let, let's yeah. 03:17:29.486 --> 03:17:31.256 Dial it back to where you were as a boy. 03:17:31.556 --> 03:17:34.256 You're in a housing state, outskirts of London. 03:17:35.096 --> 03:17:36.956 Um, what's around you? 03:17:36.986 --> 03:17:37.796 There's gonna be 03:17:39.866 --> 03:17:41.996 on the bad side, there's gonna be drugs, there's gonna be. 03:17:42.401 --> 03:17:45.371 Gang stuff, there's going to, but that to some degree was always there. 03:17:45.851 --> 03:17:46.091 Paul Illingworth: Mm-hmm. 03:17:46.391 --> 03:17:49.421 Rupert Isaacson: On the positive side, there's going to be kids who are doing 03:17:49.421 --> 03:17:55.991 creative things like music, um, perhaps sport, um, other things like that. 03:17:56.471 --> 03:17:59.831 But I think, I like that you put your finger on something with community 03:17:59.831 --> 03:18:01.871 involvement and, and service. 03:18:02.081 --> 03:18:05.741 Most people are not gonna be in a church environment, but it's, 03:18:05.741 --> 03:18:07.631 that's a good place to start from. 03:18:07.631 --> 03:18:14.711 I think you are now in this housing estate today in 2025. 03:18:15.341 --> 03:18:20.591 As a father of a bo of a 10-year-old boy. 03:18:20.591 --> 03:18:21.071 What do you do? 03:18:26.051 --> 03:18:28.241 Paul Illingworth: I think what I would, what I would, what I'd want 03:18:28.241 --> 03:18:34.061 to try to do is, um, obviously, you know, school is community. 03:18:34.361 --> 03:18:34.781 Mm-hmm. 03:18:35.051 --> 03:18:36.161 And, um. 03:18:36.911 --> 03:18:40.511 Not only is school community, but your neighbors are community as well. 03:18:40.661 --> 03:18:40.751 Mm-hmm. 03:18:41.021 --> 03:18:45.881 And certainly when my kids were growing up and, and you know, this wasn't 03:18:45.881 --> 03:18:50.081 that long ago, what was important was actually finding out what the other 03:18:50.081 --> 03:18:51.881 kids in the neighborhood are doing. 03:18:52.151 --> 03:18:54.251 Where are they going, where are they hanging out? 03:18:54.251 --> 03:18:55.631 Are they the tennis court? 03:18:55.631 --> 03:18:59.831 So that the swimming pool, you know, there are places where they, that 03:19:00.161 --> 03:19:04.451 they're gonna go and they're going to, if you like, group together. 03:19:04.451 --> 03:19:06.611 And I don't mean in gangs or anything like that Yeah. 03:19:06.791 --> 03:19:09.581 But just to do, you know, following their interests, basically. 03:19:10.151 --> 03:19:14.471 Interests, you know, do, do you know any, you've get, I, I just think you've 03:19:14.471 --> 03:19:16.091 gotta get the kids out the houses. 03:19:16.331 --> 03:19:16.541 Yeah. 03:19:16.541 --> 03:19:18.161 That's really what it comes down to. 03:19:18.821 --> 03:19:19.361 If you can get, which means you gotta do it 03:19:19.361 --> 03:19:19.811 Rupert Isaacson: with them. 03:19:20.131 --> 03:19:21.341 Paul Illingworth: You've gotta go do it with 'em. 03:19:21.341 --> 03:19:25.361 So, I mean, over here, when my kids were growing up, when my son was growing 03:19:25.361 --> 03:19:29.831 up, we did T-ball, we did baseball, we'd all, I know it's sports again, but 03:19:29.831 --> 03:19:31.871 it's very sport orientated over here. 03:19:31.871 --> 03:19:33.041 And that's what you gotta remember. 03:19:33.551 --> 03:19:36.551 But you know, friends that we have now, they have girls that are in 03:19:36.551 --> 03:19:38.891 gymnastics, that are in swim clubs. 03:19:39.401 --> 03:19:44.621 Most of most of the things are some form of sport orientated. 03:19:44.621 --> 03:19:47.801 But I mean, is there anything wrong with kids getting involved in sport? 03:19:47.801 --> 03:19:52.691 I mean, I got involved in sport, you can't work or you can work, 03:19:52.691 --> 03:19:56.051 but you can't work till you're 13 or 14 or even older than that. 03:19:56.471 --> 03:19:59.291 But working doesn't really seem to be the important thing. 03:19:59.291 --> 03:20:02.081 I think it's, it's community activities. 03:20:02.081 --> 03:20:05.201 And community activities can be sports. 03:20:05.291 --> 03:20:05.651 Rupert Isaacson: Yeah. 03:20:05.741 --> 03:20:07.151 Paul Illingworth: It could be stamp collecting. 03:20:07.361 --> 03:20:08.261 They could be, well, I mean, I think 03:20:08.261 --> 03:20:08.741 Rupert Isaacson: that's the thing. 03:20:08.741 --> 03:20:13.001 I mean, so in my case, the kind of nerd I was, obviously I was riding, right? 03:20:13.271 --> 03:20:14.711 But I'm a huge nature nerd. 03:20:14.711 --> 03:20:18.371 So for me it would've been birdwatching, um, uh. 03:20:19.466 --> 03:20:24.176 Plant identification, animal watching, and then from there you get into hiking, 03:20:24.176 --> 03:20:25.856 you get into mountaineering, you get into, 03:20:26.336 --> 03:20:27.116 Paul Illingworth: exactly. 03:20:27.116 --> 03:20:28.616 And that's one of the things I love now. 03:20:28.616 --> 03:20:31.736 I mean, you know, I'd rather be, I'd rather be outside than 03:20:31.736 --> 03:20:32.666 sitting here at the moment. 03:20:32.666 --> 03:20:35.726 I'd rather be riding my tractor around riding my a TV, going and 03:20:35.726 --> 03:20:37.916 mowing grass, walking with my dogs. 03:20:38.126 --> 03:20:38.756 Yes. 03:20:38.816 --> 03:20:42.296 You know, and, and that's another thing that we, we used to do as well. 03:20:42.296 --> 03:20:43.736 But you did this with your kids? 03:20:44.006 --> 03:20:45.536 I did it with my kids, yeah. 03:20:45.536 --> 03:20:48.806 We used to go to the park, we used to walk the dogs on a regular basis, 03:20:48.866 --> 03:20:51.206 teach them things to do with nature. 03:20:51.446 --> 03:20:51.836 Mm-hmm. 03:20:51.926 --> 03:20:58.106 Um, the problem we have right now, Ruper, is that you've got kids 03:20:58.346 --> 03:21:04.616 that are growing up with parents that almost grew up exactly the 03:21:04.616 --> 03:21:06.416 same way that they're growing up. 03:21:06.836 --> 03:21:06.926 Mm-hmm. 03:21:06.926 --> 03:21:09.776 Because you had computer games started in the nineties. 03:21:09.776 --> 03:21:09.806 Mm. 03:21:10.016 --> 03:21:11.726 They grew up with computer games. 03:21:11.726 --> 03:21:12.986 They're now having kids. 03:21:13.376 --> 03:21:16.676 So if the, if the parents don't know to go out. 03:21:17.216 --> 03:21:18.896 Themselves and get things done. 03:21:18.896 --> 03:21:18.986 Mm-hmm. 03:21:19.286 --> 03:21:22.286 And want to stay in the house and want to watch television. 03:21:22.586 --> 03:21:25.466 The kids are gonna be grow up exactly the same way. 03:21:26.186 --> 03:21:31.406 So I, it's really, should our, should we be dealing with this from the point of 03:21:31.406 --> 03:21:32.756 view of what should the kids be doing? 03:21:32.756 --> 03:21:36.926 Or should we try, try to educate the parents in what they should be doing? 03:21:37.736 --> 03:21:38.276 I guess 03:21:38.276 --> 03:21:40.196 Rupert Isaacson: that's the other, you know, too, as you 03:21:40.196 --> 03:21:41.546 say, like when, when I was a kid. 03:21:41.546 --> 03:21:45.926 When you were a kid, um, even like when I was in the country in England growing up, 03:21:45.926 --> 03:21:47.876 that not everyone had a car by any means. 03:21:48.416 --> 03:21:49.076 Um, we didn't 03:21:49.076 --> 03:21:49.436 Paul Illingworth: have one. 03:21:49.646 --> 03:21:49.946 Rupert Isaacson: No. 03:21:50.246 --> 03:21:52.586 Um, and I'm talking about also people that lived like out on 03:21:52.586 --> 03:21:54.326 farms, didn't necessarily have cars. 03:21:54.446 --> 03:21:57.176 They'd walked to the top of their driveway, walk to the village, get 03:21:57.176 --> 03:21:59.366 a bus or take a bicycle or whatever. 03:21:59.456 --> 03:21:59.666 Paul Illingworth: Mm-hmm. 03:22:00.266 --> 03:22:03.026 Rupert Isaacson: Um, a lot of places didn't have electricity even growing 03:22:03.026 --> 03:22:05.306 up, I remember on remote farms. 03:22:05.366 --> 03:22:08.786 Um, and then of course that will change somewhere in the eighties. 03:22:09.206 --> 03:22:14.966 Um, but crucially, I think that there was a lot of movement. 03:22:16.016 --> 03:22:17.546 You had to move, right? 03:22:17.841 --> 03:22:22.076 You, you, you, you didn't have an option if you wanted to move 03:22:22.976 --> 03:22:27.866 yourself from one place to another to not do it with your body. 03:22:28.436 --> 03:22:28.526 Paul Illingworth: Yeah. 03:22:28.556 --> 03:22:30.926 Rupert Isaacson: Um, okay. 03:22:30.926 --> 03:22:32.216 Now this is difficult. 03:22:32.216 --> 03:22:36.626 If you grew up in a subdivision that has no public transport and you are 03:22:36.956 --> 03:22:41.126 the only option is cars, um, you might be able to ride your bicycle around, 03:22:41.156 --> 03:22:42.926 you know, the cul-de-sacs or whatever. 03:22:42.926 --> 03:22:46.166 But, but as you say, I guess then you do have things like skateboarding. 03:22:46.166 --> 03:22:49.496 You do have things like, but it's very difficult not to 03:22:49.496 --> 03:22:52.046 end up indoors on a computer. 03:22:52.856 --> 03:22:53.096 Yeah. 03:22:53.186 --> 03:22:58.076 Um, and it's marketed at you and as you say, with parents who are maybe, you 03:22:58.076 --> 03:23:04.136 know, two job parents, um, or single parent, you know, more than one kid. 03:23:05.336 --> 03:23:10.226 But I think you did put your finger on it when you talked about community. 03:23:10.736 --> 03:23:13.886 So the way I would think about community as tribe. 03:23:15.011 --> 03:23:19.121 And, um, as you know, I spent a lot of time in Africa, um, living with 03:23:19.121 --> 03:23:21.911 tribes and my own family's very tribal. 03:23:22.361 --> 03:23:27.821 Um, I grew up with a lot of cousins, you know, southern Africans, um, and there 03:23:27.821 --> 03:23:30.611 were always just a procession of cousins coming through the house from everywhere. 03:23:31.241 --> 03:23:36.341 Um, and it was considered normal that we'd all end up at each other's 03:23:36.341 --> 03:23:39.731 places at whenever, and you could kind of stay as long as you wanted. 03:23:39.731 --> 03:23:40.631 It was all right. 03:23:40.781 --> 03:23:44.081 You had to muck in, but everyone was always welcome everywhere. 03:23:44.741 --> 03:23:49.181 Um, that level of, so, you know, and so to some degree we were 03:23:49.181 --> 03:23:50.351 all in service to each other. 03:23:50.351 --> 03:23:50.591 Right. 03:23:55.061 --> 03:23:59.291 I think I, I wonder if we've lost the habit of that, so that as you 03:23:59.291 --> 03:24:04.136 say, yes, sometimes church, you know, but, and, and then you moved, you, 03:24:04.141 --> 03:24:05.411 you didn't have that growing up. 03:24:06.431 --> 03:24:11.141 But when you got to say Houston with your kids, you saw the value of it. 03:24:11.141 --> 03:24:13.571 Why did you see the value of it when you didn't have it growing 03:24:13.571 --> 03:24:16.151 up, and why did you know that that was something you had to give them? 03:24:17.111 --> 03:24:19.181 Paul Illingworth: Well, you know, I think, to be quite honest with 03:24:19.181 --> 03:24:24.941 you, it was, it was a really a case of what are the community doing. 03:24:25.361 --> 03:24:29.711 So, you know, when we first moved over here and, and started to make contact 03:24:29.711 --> 03:24:34.451 with, with local people and, and they had kids in the subdivision that we lived in, 03:24:34.451 --> 03:24:35.711 it's like, well, what are the kids doing? 03:24:35.741 --> 03:24:38.171 Oh, they're going down the road and they're playing T-ball, 03:24:38.171 --> 03:24:39.401 they're playing baseball there. 03:24:39.461 --> 03:24:42.161 Right, right next to where the house was. 03:24:42.161 --> 03:24:44.741 There was, uh, there was a little sports field there. 03:24:45.221 --> 03:24:49.541 Um, and so, you know, we went down there to see what was going on. 03:24:49.571 --> 03:24:52.331 Knew nothing about baseball T-Ball, you know. 03:24:52.871 --> 03:24:55.001 Or any of the sports whatsoever. 03:24:55.541 --> 03:24:59.741 Jack, my son was six at the time when we moved to the us. 03:24:59.741 --> 03:25:01.241 My daughter wasn't even born. 03:25:01.241 --> 03:25:03.401 She was born a couple of years after I moved over here. 03:25:04.121 --> 03:25:08.801 So, you know, I had a 6-year-old that would've ended up being 03:25:08.801 --> 03:25:11.081 stuck in the house all the time for didn't do something with him. 03:25:11.081 --> 03:25:13.571 And I was, I was working, I mean, I, you know, I had a very, 03:25:13.571 --> 03:25:15.761 very high busy, high level job. 03:25:16.511 --> 03:25:18.671 Um, but I had to do something. 03:25:18.671 --> 03:25:22.061 So yeah, we would talk to the neighbors, the neighbors had kids, 03:25:22.061 --> 03:25:23.351 find out what the kids were doing. 03:25:23.561 --> 03:25:29.561 We used the community, if you like, to figure out what to do with the kids. 03:25:29.951 --> 03:25:32.441 And, and that's what we did all the time. 03:25:32.591 --> 03:25:36.341 So your tribe really, it, it's almost like. 03:25:37.031 --> 03:25:39.341 It was a small subdivision that we lived in. 03:25:39.371 --> 03:25:43.001 There was probably only about 20, 25 houses, but that was our community. 03:25:43.391 --> 03:25:43.541 Yeah. 03:25:43.571 --> 03:25:48.821 And that's plus the fact, you know, that I would, when I would go to work, I, I, as I 03:25:48.821 --> 03:25:53.111 built the business up in Houston and start to hire people, I'd go to their houses, 03:25:53.111 --> 03:25:55.061 talk to their families, what do you do? 03:25:55.061 --> 03:25:57.071 You know, blah, blah, blah, blah. 03:25:57.071 --> 03:25:58.121 Where do you do things? 03:25:58.121 --> 03:26:03.401 How I needed to learn how the American system worked as well as you, you know 03:26:03.401 --> 03:26:07.601 this because you came over here and lived over here for a number of years. 03:26:07.601 --> 03:26:07.661 Yeah. 03:26:07.661 --> 03:26:08.621 It's very different. 03:26:08.681 --> 03:26:11.291 Very different from being living in Europe. 03:26:11.296 --> 03:26:11.746 Yes, it is. 03:26:13.031 --> 03:26:18.071 And we, but we've now got to the point 20 years later where you're absolutely right. 03:26:18.251 --> 03:26:19.871 There is no public transport. 03:26:20.471 --> 03:26:24.521 There is no way of getting around other than being driven by your parents. 03:26:24.551 --> 03:26:24.611 Yeah. 03:26:24.611 --> 03:26:29.741 So as a kid, all you do get, you get put in a car, you get taken somewhere. 03:26:29.981 --> 03:26:30.101 Yeah. 03:26:30.101 --> 03:26:32.771 You go and do that activity, you go back home. 03:26:32.861 --> 03:26:38.321 And how much of those activities are related to the actual community that 03:26:38.321 --> 03:26:41.531 you live in, and how much are related to the school is difficult to say. 03:26:41.531 --> 03:26:45.461 It's probably more school orientated. 03:26:45.461 --> 03:26:49.601 In other words, whatever the school kids do, that's what you do, but 03:26:49.601 --> 03:26:52.661 the kids are being transported from one place to another. 03:26:53.081 --> 03:26:53.321 Yeah. 03:26:53.381 --> 03:27:00.461 Um, one of the things that I have noticed is getting, and I dunno what 03:27:00.461 --> 03:27:05.861 it's like in Europe, but is getting very, very bad over here, is, um, 03:27:06.701 --> 03:27:08.801 what I call self gratification. 03:27:09.971 --> 03:27:16.391 People are growing up with an attitude that, um, the world owes them something, 03:27:16.481 --> 03:27:21.911 community owes them something, and they expect to get that out of the 03:27:21.911 --> 03:27:25.241 community without really putting an awful lot back into it again. 03:27:25.961 --> 03:27:27.881 Uh, it, it's, it's almost like. 03:27:28.871 --> 03:27:31.421 It's a bit of selfishness to a certain extent. 03:27:32.051 --> 03:27:36.131 Um, you know, I've always looked at life as you get out of it, whatever you put in. 03:27:36.941 --> 03:27:39.881 So you've got to be prepared to put something into life in order 03:27:39.881 --> 03:27:41.141 to be able to get something out. 03:27:41.411 --> 03:27:46.721 And unfortunately, I think kids today, particularly in the, certainly where 03:27:46.721 --> 03:27:50.321 I live in the US, expects everything to be handed to them on a plate. 03:27:51.191 --> 03:27:53.951 Rupert Isaacson: I mean, I think every older generation has always said this 03:27:53.951 --> 03:27:55.331 about every younger generation forever. 03:27:55.331 --> 03:27:55.721 I'm sure 03:27:55.721 --> 03:27:56.201 Paul Illingworth: they have. 03:27:56.201 --> 03:27:56.471 Absolutely. 03:27:56.471 --> 03:27:57.311 I mean, you remember 03:27:57.311 --> 03:27:59.231 Rupert Isaacson: your dad would've moaned at you about that. 03:27:59.231 --> 03:27:59.321 Yes. 03:27:59.321 --> 03:28:03.851 And my dad and granddad moaned at me about that, you know, but I think 03:28:04.031 --> 03:28:10.121 perhaps each generation is right in that what they observe is young 03:28:10.121 --> 03:28:12.791 people trying to figure it out and. 03:28:14.411 --> 03:28:18.731 While they're in that figuring out process, they get stuff wrong, you know? 03:28:18.731 --> 03:28:18.911 Yeah. 03:28:19.151 --> 03:28:23.261 And that noise, the older generation, but I, I do think it's more acute now 03:28:23.261 --> 03:28:26.621 in terms of like, so for example, here in Germany where I am, my kids can 03:28:26.621 --> 03:28:28.211 take a bicycle and ride to the store. 03:28:28.211 --> 03:28:32.081 They can walk to the store, they can go and figure out how to do 03:28:32.081 --> 03:28:35.171 their own shopping, and they're at their 10 and eight, and they can do 03:28:35.171 --> 03:28:36.551 that, they can do that safely here. 03:28:36.971 --> 03:28:39.671 Um, they can walk to their, uh, grandparents' house. 03:28:40.061 --> 03:28:42.371 Um, this is all very normal, right? 03:28:42.401 --> 03:28:44.321 They can go down to the creek and play. 03:28:44.861 --> 03:28:52.151 Um, and you are not paranoid about, uh, their safety in the 03:28:52.151 --> 03:28:54.522 way that one would be in the USA. 03:28:54.527 --> 03:28:54.726 Mm-hmm. 03:28:54.806 --> 03:28:58.631 I wouldn't probably let them do it in the USA unless we were in a very, very 03:28:58.631 --> 03:29:01.901 rural area and kind of had control of the land and the environment. 03:29:02.346 --> 03:29:02.766 Mm-hmm. 03:29:02.846 --> 03:29:03.766 Um, and. 03:29:05.156 --> 03:29:07.526 It is still safer here. 03:29:07.916 --> 03:29:10.886 And then you have, you do have a lot of what are called vet 03:29:10.886 --> 03:29:12.296 irons here, which are clubs. 03:29:12.776 --> 03:29:18.416 So, um, you know, we're part of a, a right vet in a riding club, which means that 03:29:18.476 --> 03:29:22.286 if we all put our money in, we all have access to these facilities like arenas 03:29:22.286 --> 03:29:25.796 and jumps and things like that, that we wouldn't be able to put in ourselves 03:29:25.796 --> 03:29:27.626 privately, but collectively we can. 03:29:27.656 --> 03:29:27.806 Mm-hmm. 03:29:27.901 --> 03:29:32.696 But we have to do a certain number of work hours as well as putting in dues. 03:29:33.056 --> 03:29:36.386 We've actually, so the kids have to show up and, and, and, and there's 03:29:36.386 --> 03:29:37.886 work hours for kids in the V Right. 03:29:37.916 --> 03:29:39.296 It's not just for the, for the parents. 03:29:39.806 --> 03:29:45.506 And then there's nabu, which is our local nature conservation, and we have 03:29:45.506 --> 03:29:51.056 to go out and into the orchards around here and clean out the owl boxes. 03:29:51.626 --> 03:29:55.346 Um, get up a ladder, do that, deal, scoop out the ship. 03:29:55.346 --> 03:29:56.516 But there's interesting stuff in there. 03:29:56.606 --> 03:30:00.656 And then you find door mice and you find, you know, and there is this. 03:30:01.766 --> 03:30:04.676 Yeah, I think, I think you nailed it with community. 03:30:04.826 --> 03:30:09.956 Um, it's there, um, people say it's not as good as it was. 03:30:10.496 --> 03:30:12.986 You know, you talk to the old generation here, they say it's, it's, 03:30:13.256 --> 03:30:14.966 Paul Illingworth: oh no, I'm, it's been eroded, but, 03:30:15.056 --> 03:30:16.946 Rupert Isaacson: but it's still much stronger, I think. 03:30:17.066 --> 03:30:18.866 And there's a very good public transport. 03:30:18.866 --> 03:30:23.876 So you, you know, we're out here, for example, Rowan, my 23-year-old son who 03:30:23.876 --> 03:30:25.166 you know very well, who's autistic. 03:30:25.256 --> 03:30:25.346 Paul Illingworth: Mm-hmm. 03:30:25.586 --> 03:30:25.706 When 03:30:25.706 --> 03:30:27.656 Rupert Isaacson: he's in Texas, he has to drive everywhere 03:30:27.656 --> 03:30:28.766 and thank God he can drive. 03:30:29.006 --> 03:30:33.146 But here he takes the trains all over and he stays in youth hostels and he 03:30:33.656 --> 03:30:36.056 explores different cities in, in Europe. 03:30:36.176 --> 03:30:40.916 And he can do that because there is still kind of a, of a system. 03:30:41.126 --> 03:30:43.106 Um, but 03:30:45.536 --> 03:30:49.976 you, you, when you were a kid, you didn't have that community involvement. 03:30:49.976 --> 03:30:51.956 You had to make it through that rugby team, right. 03:30:51.956 --> 03:30:53.066 You had to manufacture it. 03:30:53.246 --> 03:30:55.076 What would've happened to you if you hadn't done that? 03:30:57.926 --> 03:30:58.436 Paul Illingworth: Oh. 03:31:01.886 --> 03:31:05.096 I'll be quite honest with you, I think I would've ended up being a lot 03:31:05.096 --> 03:31:10.166 more insular, um, and isolated Okay. 03:31:12.416 --> 03:31:13.736 Than, than I was. 03:31:13.736 --> 03:31:19.106 I mean, you know, the community I went, you know, my, my high school 03:31:19.106 --> 03:31:23.846 had 600 kids, um, which is nothing compared to what you have today. 03:31:24.206 --> 03:31:28.706 And as you worked your way up through the years in the school, you almost 03:31:28.706 --> 03:31:30.206 got to know everybody in the school. 03:31:30.206 --> 03:31:34.021 I wouldn't say you knew everybody, but you know, you, you, you got it. 03:31:34.026 --> 03:31:37.196 It really was being part of the community. 03:31:37.226 --> 03:31:40.796 Now, it didn't matter whether you played a sport, you could be part of 03:31:40.796 --> 03:31:45.866 the community by supporting one of the teams, uh, or just hanging out with 03:31:45.866 --> 03:31:47.066 the guys that played in the teams. 03:31:47.096 --> 03:31:50.366 If I did, if I hadn't have had anything to do with rugby, this. 03:31:51.026 --> 03:31:54.536 I was involved in a lot of stuff at school as far as sports are concerned, 03:31:54.536 --> 03:31:56.006 because I was a very sporty person. 03:31:56.006 --> 03:32:00.476 Now, if I wasn't a sporty person or for whatever reason I couldn't do 03:32:00.476 --> 03:32:05.876 the sport, I think I would've been a very, very insular type of person. 03:32:06.326 --> 03:32:10.196 Um, 'cause I think that's what made me, you know, I'm quite 03:32:10.196 --> 03:32:12.146 gregarious, I'm very outgoing. 03:32:12.146 --> 03:32:14.336 I'll talk to anybody, you know, that mm-hmm. 03:32:14.451 --> 03:32:17.366 That has, that has, that's part of my character that really 03:32:17.366 --> 03:32:19.166 built up through those years. 03:32:19.646 --> 03:32:19.736 Mm-hmm. 03:32:19.796 --> 03:32:26.516 Because prior to going to, at 10 years old, so, so I, I 03:32:26.516 --> 03:32:27.716 wanna backtrack a little bit. 03:32:27.716 --> 03:32:28.046 Okay. 03:32:28.286 --> 03:32:32.306 So when my father got really, really sick and the building business started 03:32:32.306 --> 03:32:39.386 to collapse in London, um, I was six, seven years old and we couldn't afford 03:32:39.386 --> 03:32:41.096 to live in the townhouse in London. 03:32:41.156 --> 03:32:45.776 So, uh, my mother who had some contacts, um. 03:32:46.406 --> 03:32:50.636 Shall we say with the theater people in London, I'm not gonna mention any 03:32:50.636 --> 03:32:54.476 names, but she, uh, she was good friends with a couple of very famous actresses. 03:32:55.046 --> 03:32:58.796 One of the actresses had an old cottage out in the Hartford sheer 03:32:58.796 --> 03:33:01.466 countryside that had no electricity. 03:33:01.706 --> 03:33:04.896 It had no water, running water, just as you were talking about. 03:33:05.966 --> 03:33:07.736 And it needed work doing to it. 03:33:07.736 --> 03:33:10.106 Well, my dad was able to do some work. 03:33:10.136 --> 03:33:12.536 He couldn't do a lot of heavy work, but he was able to do some work. 03:33:12.776 --> 03:33:15.626 We moved into that cottage and spent three years there. 03:33:17.306 --> 03:33:21.596 But I went to a local school that had 20 kids in it. 03:33:21.956 --> 03:33:24.711 So my junior school year Village school, 03:33:24.926 --> 03:33:25.346 Rupert Isaacson: right? 03:33:25.406 --> 03:33:25.646 Yeah. 03:33:25.646 --> 03:33:25.826 Village 03:33:25.826 --> 03:33:26.426 Paul Illingworth: school. 03:33:26.546 --> 03:33:26.786 Yeah. 03:33:26.816 --> 03:33:27.986 20 kids, right? 03:33:28.496 --> 03:33:29.086 Yeah, yeah, yeah. 03:33:29.756 --> 03:33:30.986 And tribe. 03:33:31.976 --> 03:33:33.056 So I tribe, yeah. 03:33:33.806 --> 03:33:36.926 I spent this little cottage was in the middle of nowhere. 03:33:36.926 --> 03:33:36.986 Yeah. 03:33:37.016 --> 03:33:39.236 With fields all round country. 03:33:39.236 --> 03:33:39.716 All round. 03:33:39.716 --> 03:33:42.056 I was surrounded by nature, but it was tribes. 03:33:42.056 --> 03:33:48.596 So when we then moved into the council house in Hoon, which was a lot more urban, 03:33:48.596 --> 03:33:53.846 shall we say, than than rural, that's when I started to get bullied because I wasn't 03:33:53.846 --> 03:33:55.556 used to, I didn't know anybody there. 03:33:55.556 --> 03:33:58.136 There was no tribe I'd lost it all completely. 03:33:58.706 --> 03:34:00.656 Um, and I was a bit of a loner. 03:34:00.836 --> 03:34:02.066 I mean, I really, really was. 03:34:02.066 --> 03:34:03.686 It was just me and my sister living there. 03:34:03.686 --> 03:34:05.126 My mom and dad didn't know anybody. 03:34:05.126 --> 03:34:05.966 They couldn't go out. 03:34:05.966 --> 03:34:06.896 They couldn't do anything. 03:34:06.896 --> 03:34:08.546 There was no community whatsoever. 03:34:09.536 --> 03:34:12.266 So I became, 03:34:14.516 --> 03:34:15.926 I definitely did become a loner. 03:34:15.956 --> 03:34:18.176 'cause I can remember going out, what do I wanna do? 03:34:18.176 --> 03:34:21.806 Well, I'm gonna go buy some, get some bicycle parts and build myself a bicycle. 03:34:21.806 --> 03:34:22.946 'cause I couldn't afford to buy one. 03:34:22.946 --> 03:34:26.996 So I ended up building a bicycle and then I started to get round. 03:34:27.296 --> 03:34:32.306 But then I went into the high school, the secondary school, and all of a sudden. 03:34:33.146 --> 03:34:36.566 I was able to build my own community there, and that's when 03:34:36.566 --> 03:34:38.216 I started to be more outgoing. 03:34:38.216 --> 03:34:40.436 So it's very, very easy. 03:34:41.126 --> 03:34:44.156 Not you, you've, you've gotta work on those skills. 03:34:44.156 --> 03:34:44.696 I think. 03:34:44.906 --> 03:34:46.946 It doesn't come naturally and it doesn't come natural. 03:34:47.096 --> 03:34:47.156 Yeah. 03:34:47.191 --> 03:34:47.546 I, I think, I 03:34:47.546 --> 03:34:48.056 Rupert Isaacson: think you're right. 03:34:48.056 --> 03:34:50.546 I'm sort of thinking back to some of my own, because as you know, I'm 03:34:50.546 --> 03:34:56.966 also very gregarious, but I wasn't always, and, um, everyone's had 03:34:56.966 --> 03:35:00.386 the experience of being bullied and everyone's had, everyone's had that and 03:35:00.596 --> 03:35:01.016 Paul Illingworth: yeah, I 03:35:01.016 --> 03:35:01.976 Rupert Isaacson: had to deal with it. 03:35:01.976 --> 03:35:02.276 Right. 03:35:02.366 --> 03:35:09.986 And, um, there was also, I think, yeah, a crucial period of learning how to build 03:35:10.436 --> 03:35:12.536 community through my love of horses. 03:35:12.926 --> 03:35:15.356 And then of course, you, you find other people that have 03:35:15.356 --> 03:35:16.616 that and you share that with us. 03:35:16.616 --> 03:35:17.366 It was the local hunt. 03:35:18.011 --> 03:35:20.081 Um, because you didn't need money to be in the hunt. 03:35:20.141 --> 03:35:23.081 You know, you, you, you just had to be part of the pony club, right. 03:35:23.171 --> 03:35:26.921 And uh, the pony club let you hunt for free and subsidized everything 03:35:26.921 --> 03:35:28.841 to get people onto that track. 03:35:29.171 --> 03:35:33.611 Um, and uh, it was good 'cause it ended up being kind of a career track for me 03:35:33.671 --> 03:35:35.021 alongside everything else I've done. 03:35:35.441 --> 03:35:40.331 But it wasn't always like that and I wasn't terribly well accepted 'cause 03:35:40.331 --> 03:35:42.881 I was a London boy not for English. 03:35:42.911 --> 03:35:47.261 Like in less coming up through that and you had to kind of find your way. 03:35:47.981 --> 03:35:53.231 Do you think that, um, if the computer games and that whole thing had been 03:35:53.231 --> 03:35:57.851 around when you were a kid on there, on that estate, would you have 03:35:57.851 --> 03:35:59.231 fallen into that trap, do you think? 03:35:59.831 --> 03:36:00.641 Paul Illingworth: Quite possibly. 03:36:01.721 --> 03:36:02.261 Um. 03:36:03.746 --> 03:36:04.706 I can't say no. 03:36:04.796 --> 03:36:09.026 Yeah, because, you know, it's, it's, it's one of these things. 03:36:09.086 --> 03:36:11.786 I mean, I think I mentioned earlier on, you know, I don't sit around watching 03:36:11.786 --> 03:36:13.766 television or reading newspapers. 03:36:14.096 --> 03:36:18.176 I gave up reading newspapers about 40 years ago when every time I opened the 03:36:18.176 --> 03:36:20.036 newspaper, there was nothing good in them. 03:36:20.066 --> 03:36:21.236 So I just stopped reading. 03:36:21.236 --> 03:36:22.316 Was there anything good in that? 03:36:22.316 --> 03:36:25.736 No, I don't think, I don't think there ever was any, anyway. 03:36:26.156 --> 03:36:30.386 Um, you know, and I mean, I would, I would watch the television really just to find 03:36:30.386 --> 03:36:31.556 out what was happening with the news. 03:36:31.556 --> 03:36:34.496 And even today, if I watch television, it's B, B, C, I just 03:36:34.496 --> 03:36:37.346 watch B, you know, the B, b, C news, because I get worldwide news. 03:36:37.346 --> 03:36:40.406 I don't get the, shall we say the American stuff that get 03:36:40.406 --> 03:36:41.666 shoved down your throat here. 03:36:41.696 --> 03:36:41.906 Yeah. 03:36:42.326 --> 03:36:43.341 But yeah, you know. 03:36:44.561 --> 03:36:46.451 If there was computer games around. 03:36:46.481 --> 03:36:50.171 I mean, I've tried computer games when my kids were grown up and 03:36:50.171 --> 03:36:51.506 they had computer games, but yeah. 03:36:51.526 --> 03:36:55.391 But they're just not something that really, they don't engage me enough. 03:36:55.451 --> 03:36:55.751 You know? 03:36:55.751 --> 03:36:59.081 It, it's, it's, it's too tunnel vision for me. 03:36:59.081 --> 03:37:02.051 I like to look at the broader picture of what's going on around me. 03:37:02.741 --> 03:37:11.171 Um, but, you know, it definitely being able to, to go out and get involved 03:37:11.171 --> 03:37:13.901 with community activities Yeah. 03:37:13.966 --> 03:37:16.931 Is, is, is, and it is, it comes back to the tribe. 03:37:16.931 --> 03:37:18.641 It doesn't matter what your tribe is. 03:37:18.641 --> 03:37:22.786 It can be a subdivision, you know, it can be a team at school, it can be anything. 03:37:22.926 --> 03:37:25.841 But I think tribe is very, very important. 03:37:26.501 --> 03:37:31.631 Um, there, there was, there's, there's somewhere that, that I want to go here 03:37:31.631 --> 03:37:34.511 and it's like in, it's, it's in the back of my mind and I'm just trying 03:37:34.511 --> 03:37:36.701 to find the, the right words for it. 03:37:36.701 --> 03:37:37.031 But. 03:37:39.251 --> 03:37:44.051 One of my most recent experiences is running the escape room business. 03:37:44.531 --> 03:37:44.621 Mm-hmm. 03:37:44.771 --> 03:37:44.801 Okay. 03:37:45.131 --> 03:37:48.401 Now, for those of you that may not know what an escape room 03:37:48.401 --> 03:37:49.751 is, I'm sure most people do. 03:37:49.871 --> 03:37:52.781 You actually, you don't get locked into a room and have to escape. 03:37:53.231 --> 03:37:57.551 Uh, it's a themed room where there are puzzles that you have to solve 03:37:57.551 --> 03:37:59.051 to work your way through the game. 03:37:59.051 --> 03:38:01.931 So it's kind of a game, it's an interactive game. 03:38:02.711 --> 03:38:07.511 And, um, the staff that I had running the, this business, it, it know it 03:38:07.511 --> 03:38:09.131 was a very, very successful business. 03:38:09.131 --> 03:38:11.711 We had eight different games all themed differently. 03:38:11.711 --> 03:38:15.521 We had a pirate one, we had a Scooby-Doo one, uh, we had a 03:38:15.521 --> 03:38:19.691 laboratory one, a haunted mansion, so different types of things. 03:38:20.741 --> 03:38:23.981 Almost all the staff that we employed at that business, and 03:38:23.981 --> 03:38:27.521 we had 12 to 15 people were. 03:38:28.571 --> 03:38:32.921 Guys and girls that were anything from high school age that's literally 03:38:32.981 --> 03:38:36.971 17 years old through to 23, 24. 03:38:36.971 --> 03:38:42.911 So mainly young people that were either at school or were at college or had 03:38:42.911 --> 03:38:47.141 decided not to go to college, but needed, were looking for another career. 03:38:48.341 --> 03:38:54.281 So I had five years of dealing with people, both guys and 03:38:54.281 --> 03:38:57.311 girls of that age group, right? 03:38:58.091 --> 03:39:02.261 And so I've got quite a lot of experience of actually what we are 03:39:02.261 --> 03:39:04.176 talking about here to date through that. 03:39:05.561 --> 03:39:12.491 Now, the people that we employed, there were basically three different positions, 03:39:12.851 --> 03:39:15.281 but everybody started off as a host. 03:39:15.791 --> 03:39:18.701 And as a host, you're, you're dealing with the customers when they 03:39:18.701 --> 03:39:22.331 come in the store, you're talking to them, you're engaging them. 03:39:22.721 --> 03:39:27.341 You have to learn, uh, to basically explain to them what. 03:39:27.731 --> 03:39:31.121 The business is about what the game is about, that they're gonna play. 03:39:31.391 --> 03:39:36.101 And then you help them to go into the room, brief them going in the room, and 03:39:36.101 --> 03:39:40.451 then when they finish playing the game, you take them out of the room, take a 03:39:40.451 --> 03:39:42.851 photograph, say thank you very much. 03:39:42.851 --> 03:39:43.991 So it's customer service. 03:39:43.991 --> 03:39:46.181 You are teaching people to communicate? 03:39:46.451 --> 03:39:46.721 Mm-hmm. 03:39:46.726 --> 03:39:46.996 Okay. 03:39:48.461 --> 03:39:51.971 The other side of the business, once they've learned all that side 03:39:51.971 --> 03:39:55.481 of the business, is going into the rooms and resetting the room. 03:39:55.481 --> 03:39:58.151 So after you play a game, you've gotta put all the props 03:39:58.151 --> 03:39:59.591 and everything back in place. 03:39:59.621 --> 03:39:59.951 Okay. 03:40:00.431 --> 03:40:04.301 That's attention to detail, totally different skillset, but 03:40:04.301 --> 03:40:06.341 everybody has to learn it and. 03:40:07.076 --> 03:40:10.736 Eventually when you're good, you start to time yourself. 03:40:11.216 --> 03:40:14.606 So now you, you're giving yourself a challenge because you're seeing 03:40:14.606 --> 03:40:17.606 how fast you can actually put all that stuff back in place again. 03:40:17.606 --> 03:40:20.546 And there was little competitions we used to have, and you'd get a 03:40:20.546 --> 03:40:24.566 $25 gift card for the fastest person per, you know, at a certain time. 03:40:25.256 --> 03:40:29.186 The next set of skills you learn, when you learn how to reset the games, you 03:40:29.186 --> 03:40:31.196 know, the games, you become a game master. 03:40:31.946 --> 03:40:37.316 A game master is like playing a computer game, but with real people. 03:40:38.396 --> 03:40:41.996 You're looking at a TV screen that has multiple cameras. 03:40:42.386 --> 03:40:46.136 You are helping the people in the rooms, you're sending them clues, 03:40:46.556 --> 03:40:48.446 it, you're answering questions. 03:40:48.446 --> 03:40:54.176 So it's very, very focused, but looking like a computer going right. 03:40:54.446 --> 03:40:56.276 And you don't run one game at a time. 03:40:56.276 --> 03:40:59.396 The game Masters are running three or four games at a time. 03:40:59.396 --> 03:41:03.416 So you may have, you can have eight people playing a game. 03:41:03.836 --> 03:41:08.036 You can have four times eight people, or 32 people that you're responsible 03:41:08.036 --> 03:41:09.896 for making sure they have a good time. 03:41:10.256 --> 03:41:11.876 That's what the business is all about. 03:41:12.866 --> 03:41:14.516 So where am I going with this? 03:41:15.416 --> 03:41:17.816 How do you pick people that you're gonna hire? 03:41:18.326 --> 03:41:22.196 Because you don't hire people as a game master straight away. 03:41:22.196 --> 03:41:23.396 They've gotta learn the business. 03:41:23.396 --> 03:41:26.066 It's like starting off as a deckhand and becoming the captain. 03:41:26.186 --> 03:41:27.836 The captain is the game master. 03:41:28.046 --> 03:41:28.406 Alright. 03:41:29.396 --> 03:41:36.326 So we had to pick people and nine times outta 10, nine times outta 10, 03:41:36.656 --> 03:41:41.096 the people that we interviewed had no communication skills whatsoever. 03:41:41.396 --> 03:41:44.456 They could be 17, 18 years old, high schoolers. 03:41:44.816 --> 03:41:46.976 They could be people that have been to college. 03:41:47.306 --> 03:41:50.186 We ha we would interview people and we do zoom interviews. 03:41:50.186 --> 03:41:55.556 We'd interview people that have very good resumes, five years of customer service. 03:41:56.231 --> 03:41:57.551 They couldn't talk to anybody. 03:41:57.731 --> 03:42:01.151 I'd do a Zoom interview with people and ask 'em questions, and they'd just stare 03:42:01.151 --> 03:42:02.621 at me like a deer in the headlights. 03:42:02.621 --> 03:42:03.401 They had no idea. 03:42:04.631 --> 03:42:05.951 Did we hire those people? 03:42:05.951 --> 03:42:10.481 Yes, we did, because it's a way of actually teaching what what we 03:42:10.481 --> 03:42:12.821 made them was part of our tribe. 03:42:14.381 --> 03:42:15.886 This is where I'm coming with this, right? 03:42:15.886 --> 03:42:19.601 Because it was a great opportunity for us to actually take people from the 03:42:19.601 --> 03:42:25.121 outside world, bring them into our tribe, and teach them skills going forward. 03:42:26.021 --> 03:42:31.811 And the ones that succeeded were the ones that were able to embrace 03:42:31.901 --> 03:42:34.211 the, the, the job responsibilities. 03:42:34.661 --> 03:42:40.871 We, we hired high school girls that, that wouldn't say boo to a mouse three months 03:42:40.871 --> 03:42:44.261 after coming to work for us, if, you know, they were literally throwing people 03:42:44.261 --> 03:42:47.591 out the door that, you know, somebody came in drunk on a Saturday night. 03:42:48.011 --> 03:42:53.111 That's, that's how good they got because they got confidence in themselves. 03:42:53.756 --> 03:42:56.036 Now there's a point I'm going here with this. 03:42:56.216 --> 03:42:56.576 Okay. 03:42:57.416 --> 03:43:04.976 The point is that a lot of the boys, the boys struggled more with 03:43:04.976 --> 03:43:08.486 the customer service side and the interaction than the girls did. 03:43:08.546 --> 03:43:12.776 The girls always seemed to have the ability to be able to deal with customers. 03:43:13.766 --> 03:43:15.236 What did the boys wanna do? 03:43:15.776 --> 03:43:20.516 They wanted to become game masters because they were all gamers and 03:43:20.516 --> 03:43:21.401 they wanted Right, that's, yeah. 03:43:21.431 --> 03:43:21.721 Yeah. 03:43:21.776 --> 03:43:26.066 They wanted to sit in a room on their own, not have to deal with, 03:43:26.066 --> 03:43:29.306 not have to deal with the real world, but they were very good at 03:43:29.306 --> 03:43:30.896 controlling what people were doing. 03:43:31.346 --> 03:43:34.946 And they were the best game masters we had were gamers. 03:43:35.666 --> 03:43:40.286 But because we made them go through the whole customer service thing 03:43:40.346 --> 03:43:43.976 and they, once they got to become game masters, they didn't just sit 03:43:43.976 --> 03:43:45.536 there and be a game master forever. 03:43:45.536 --> 03:43:48.416 We used to make 'em go back up front and do customer service. 03:43:48.686 --> 03:43:49.076 Okay. 03:43:49.076 --> 03:43:49.256 But. 03:43:50.141 --> 03:43:54.341 They were also very, very good at resetting the games 'cause they became 03:43:54.341 --> 03:43:56.021 focused on what they were doing. 03:43:56.771 --> 03:44:00.161 Rupert Isaacson: This is really interesting because, um, basically what 03:44:00.161 --> 03:44:04.301 you're, you're saying is that Yeah, something So community involvement, 03:44:04.301 --> 03:44:06.971 that is an escape room business. 03:44:07.361 --> 03:44:07.691 Paul Illingworth: Yeah. 03:44:08.231 --> 03:44:12.071 Rupert Isaacson: With tribe run by somebody like you who's taught people to 03:44:12.071 --> 03:44:16.541 do much more complex and dangerous things with much high levels of responsibility. 03:44:16.541 --> 03:44:19.691 So you're not worried, you, you, you like, you know, you can get these 03:44:19.691 --> 03:44:22.151 people to where they need to go. 03:44:22.151 --> 03:44:24.071 And yet at the same time, it's very real. 03:44:24.911 --> 03:44:28.991 Um, and that to my mind is a very interesting place to end 03:44:28.991 --> 03:44:34.061 up in this conversation because you are, you are in the gaming 03:44:34.061 --> 03:44:37.061 world there in subdivision world. 03:44:37.151 --> 03:44:39.791 This, these things are happening in the suburbs, often in strip malls. 03:44:40.271 --> 03:44:44.411 Um, I mean they might be downtown, but a lot of escape malls around, 03:44:44.441 --> 03:44:45.911 you know, in, in strip mall land. 03:44:46.511 --> 03:44:47.171 Um. 03:44:48.161 --> 03:44:52.691 It's tapping into what that generation knows. 03:44:53.741 --> 03:44:57.311 Um, and I'm thinking, you know, one of the other things that we've often 03:44:57.731 --> 03:45:02.501 looked at and and done stuff with with our autism work is LARPing Live action. 03:45:02.501 --> 03:45:03.011 Role play. 03:45:03.551 --> 03:45:04.451 Yeah, yeah. 03:45:04.451 --> 03:45:07.601 Because it's, it's also, you know, it it, and that, that world is a 03:45:07.601 --> 03:45:13.571 brilliant world, uh, for people that are sometimes neurodiverse, um, that, 03:45:13.571 --> 03:45:17.591 you know, the Ren fare world, the SCA, those of you dunno, the SCA is Yeah. 03:45:17.771 --> 03:45:19.511 Or do a whole episode on the SCA. 03:45:19.541 --> 03:45:21.971 It's, it's, it's, that's a great rabbit hole. 03:45:22.271 --> 03:45:26.051 But gaming actually, because what, what is gaming? 03:45:26.051 --> 03:45:26.891 Gaming is. 03:45:27.581 --> 03:45:31.391 When you do it live well then you're back to your rugby team, aren't you? 03:45:31.391 --> 03:45:33.101 You're back to community. 03:45:33.341 --> 03:45:36.041 You're back to community and, and having this challenge that you have 03:45:36.041 --> 03:45:38.681 to fulfill when then you're back to the hunting and gathering group. 03:45:38.681 --> 03:45:42.251 You're back to the group of lads going out there with the spear, you know, 03:45:42.251 --> 03:45:45.701 and there's an older one trying to keep them safe, but also enough risk 03:45:45.701 --> 03:45:47.051 that they can actually get the kill. 03:45:47.231 --> 03:45:50.411 There's the girls out there gathering and it's very dangerous. 03:45:50.411 --> 03:45:51.911 They've got to dodge lines while they do it. 03:45:51.911 --> 03:45:56.081 They've got a track, they've got to know that this plant is poisonous and looks 03:45:56.081 --> 03:46:00.041 exactly like that one that isn't and beyond absolute high alert with that 03:46:00.041 --> 03:46:01.731 while keeping all the kids safe and da da. 03:46:02.261 --> 03:46:04.931 Um, all of this takes a lot of communication. 03:46:05.111 --> 03:46:06.101 Communication takes drive. 03:46:06.101 --> 03:46:10.391 So it is just really interesting that you, you ended up actually, I think answering 03:46:10.391 --> 03:46:12.101 the question of what, what do we do? 03:46:12.101 --> 03:46:17.531 Which is go reach out to an escape room if, if, if you are that mom 03:46:18.491 --> 03:46:21.306 whose son can't come out the basement. 03:46:22.781 --> 03:46:27.191 Um, perhaps you could do worse than to look up who's your local live 03:46:27.191 --> 03:46:30.641 action role play group and who's your It's, it's, I I mean, it, it is, 03:46:31.661 --> 03:46:36.671 Paul Illingworth: there is, it's, it's something that, that escape rooms can 03:46:36.671 --> 03:46:41.591 be played by, by kids young as seven years old and really, really enjoy it. 03:46:42.101 --> 03:46:45.461 And we've seen a, over the five years of running that business, we've seen 03:46:45.461 --> 03:46:48.791 multiple families that every time we'd have a new game, they'd play all our 03:46:48.791 --> 03:46:51.851 games, the whole family would come, they play all our games, we get a new one. 03:46:52.301 --> 03:46:55.691 They would hassle us when you open in a new game so we can come back and play. 03:46:56.081 --> 03:46:58.421 You've convinced me, I'm gonna take my kids to an escape route. 03:46:58.841 --> 03:47:02.321 They were, they were treating it as community, as a child. 03:47:02.321 --> 03:47:02.891 Yeah, no, 03:47:02.921 --> 03:47:05.651 Rupert Isaacson: you, you've, you've totally hit the nail on the head here. 03:47:05.651 --> 03:47:09.461 I think Paul, because I, I did a, I did a podcast, um, a few months back 03:47:09.461 --> 03:47:13.211 with a, a really interesting lady called, um, Lainey Liberty, who. 03:47:14.066 --> 03:47:18.356 Took a year off to travel with her son and they just never went back. 03:47:18.626 --> 03:47:20.696 And they now run a business together. 03:47:20.786 --> 03:47:24.776 Um, and what they do is get, they do board games, they run gaming cafes. 03:47:24.781 --> 03:47:24.961 Mm-hmm. 03:47:25.181 --> 03:47:25.601 Paul Illingworth: Mm-hmm. 03:47:26.186 --> 03:47:26.336 Yeah. 03:47:26.336 --> 03:47:26.456 And it's 03:47:26.456 --> 03:47:26.996 Rupert Isaacson: very similar. 03:47:27.001 --> 03:47:28.496 It's, it's, it's, it's the same thing. 03:47:28.646 --> 03:47:28.886 Yeah. 03:47:28.916 --> 03:47:29.246 Paul Illingworth: Yeah. 03:47:29.636 --> 03:47:31.196 It's exactly the same thing. 03:47:31.646 --> 03:47:35.456 It's getting the kids, you know, if, if you get kids that, that are 03:47:35.456 --> 03:47:38.636 not sporty and there's a lot of kids that aren't sure, the majority of 03:47:38.726 --> 03:47:40.406 them I think are not sporty at all. 03:47:40.796 --> 03:47:43.916 And you're not gonna get involved with that type of community. 03:47:43.916 --> 03:47:45.116 Well pick something else. 03:47:45.326 --> 03:47:45.596 Yes. 03:47:45.626 --> 03:47:48.386 Playing chess, you know, checkers, board games. 03:47:50.006 --> 03:47:52.976 What we do here with friends, you know, we live in the countryside. 03:47:52.976 --> 03:47:54.056 We are miles from anywhere. 03:47:54.056 --> 03:47:54.356 Right. 03:47:54.566 --> 03:47:56.606 But what do we do Every month? 03:47:56.606 --> 03:47:59.156 There's six or eight of us all get together, couples, 03:47:59.156 --> 03:48:00.236 and we play board games. 03:48:00.506 --> 03:48:00.686 Yeah. 03:48:00.686 --> 03:48:04.046 We sit round, we drink wine, we play board games, we talk. 03:48:04.106 --> 03:48:04.976 It's community. 03:48:05.366 --> 03:48:05.756 Rupert Isaacson: Yeah. 03:48:05.756 --> 03:48:09.416 Lainey convinced me, she said play board games with the kids if we game changer. 03:48:09.421 --> 03:48:09.481 Yeah. 03:48:09.481 --> 03:48:09.641 And. 03:48:10.781 --> 03:48:14.231 I, I hadn't been, you know, I thought, oh, I don't need to do that. 03:48:14.231 --> 03:48:15.371 You know, we're out with the horses. 03:48:15.371 --> 03:48:17.231 We do, and I thought, no, she's right. 03:48:17.261 --> 03:48:20.441 And we started and it completely changed the family dynamic. 03:48:20.711 --> 03:48:20.951 Paul Illingworth: Mm-hmm. 03:48:21.521 --> 03:48:21.671 Rupert Isaacson: It does. 03:48:22.391 --> 03:48:25.991 Um, so, so that is, listen to your Auntie Paul moms. 03:48:25.991 --> 03:48:26.051 Yeah. 03:48:26.111 --> 03:48:26.531 Um, 03:48:26.801 --> 03:48:27.161 Paul Illingworth: there you go. 03:48:27.251 --> 03:48:31.091 Rupert Isaacson: Start going to the escape rooms together and maybe, maybe 03:48:31.091 --> 03:48:36.071 your son can escape the room that he's in, um, and escape into somewhere. 03:48:36.491 --> 03:48:37.901 It's gotta start somewhere. 03:48:37.931 --> 03:48:41.471 I love that because, you know, you know me, I'm such a proponent of nature. 03:48:41.891 --> 03:48:42.191 Yeah. 03:48:42.251 --> 03:48:44.321 Um, but not everyone has access. 03:48:44.591 --> 03:48:48.611 And you also know how it is in, in Texas for example, you've gotta own that land. 03:48:48.611 --> 03:48:50.231 There's not much public land out there. 03:48:50.291 --> 03:48:50.441 Paul Illingworth: No. 03:48:50.921 --> 03:48:51.581 Rupert Isaacson: Um, and it's 03:48:51.581 --> 03:48:53.321 Paul Illingworth: also too hot a lot of the time. 03:48:53.321 --> 03:48:58.391 It is too hot Wanna go out, you know, in Texas, but other places not necessarily. 03:48:58.451 --> 03:48:59.021 There you go. 03:48:59.351 --> 03:49:00.371 Go find the and only get all Well, you 03:49:01.036 --> 03:49:01.556 Rupert Isaacson: answered the question. 03:49:01.916 --> 03:49:04.676 I I thought we were just gonna go round philosophical circle. 03:49:05.171 --> 03:49:06.461 But that's so Paul, isn't it? 03:49:06.461 --> 03:49:09.311 It's like, well actually Rupert, here's a solution. 03:49:09.551 --> 03:49:11.051 I'm like, well Paul, actually 03:49:11.051 --> 03:49:13.031 Paul Illingworth: you have Well the thing is that if I'd have mentioned that right 03:49:13.031 --> 03:49:15.611 at the beginning, you know, they, we'd have had nothing to talk about for that. 03:49:15.611 --> 03:49:15.716 That is true. 03:49:15.716 --> 03:49:16.541 For the next two hours. 03:49:16.541 --> 03:49:17.591 So there we go. 03:49:17.621 --> 03:49:18.521 We got there in the end. 03:49:18.881 --> 03:49:19.601 Got an escape room. 03:49:20.051 --> 03:49:22.241 Rupert Isaacson: We, alright, well, I think, let, let's end on that note. 03:49:22.241 --> 03:49:25.451 I've, I've got to go get horses off the hill before it gets dark. 03:49:25.781 --> 03:49:28.571 Paul Illingworth: I've gotta go mo mo mow another 20 acres. 03:49:28.571 --> 03:49:29.321 So here we go. 03:49:29.321 --> 03:49:29.861 Rupert Isaacson: All right. 03:49:29.866 --> 03:49:30.611 In the hot sun. 03:49:30.731 --> 03:49:31.121 All right. 03:49:31.121 --> 03:49:31.181 The 03:49:31.316 --> 03:49:31.676 Paul Illingworth: hot sun. 03:49:32.486 --> 03:49:32.846 Rupert Isaacson: Alright. 03:49:33.536 --> 03:49:34.286 Paul Illingworth: You take care. 03:49:34.466 --> 03:49:34.826 Rupert Isaacson: Alright. 03:49:34.826 --> 03:49:37.706 I, I'm, I'm, I'm, I'm off to an escape room with my kids. 03:49:37.791 --> 03:49:38.841 Paul Illingworth: Alright, good luck. 03:49:38.841 --> 03:49:38.851 Alright, 03:49:38.996 --> 03:49:40.256 Rupert Isaacson: I'm gonna hit the stop recording. 03:49:40.406 --> 03:49:40.766 Cheers. 03:49:41.036 --> 03:49:41.306 Bye. 03:49:41.726 --> 03:49:42.086 Bye.