WEBVTT NOTE This file was generated by Descript 00:00:11.994 --> 00:00:18.054 Welcome to Transformative Principal, where I help you stop putting out fires and start leading. 00:00:18.564 --> 00:00:20.064 I'm your host, Jethro Jones. 00:00:20.064 --> 00:00:22.764 You can follow me on Twitter at Jethro Jones. 00:00:22.764 --> 00:00:22.824 Okay. 00:00:36.085 --> 00:00:38.965 Good morning and welcome to Transformative Principal. 00:00:39.115 --> 00:00:40.375 Maybe it's not morning for you. 00:00:40.465 --> 00:00:41.125 That's okay. 00:00:41.350 --> 00:00:41.640 Okay. 00:00:42.115 --> 00:00:42.535 Principal. 00:00:42.535 --> 00:00:43.975 I'm your host, Jethro Jones. 00:00:45.205 --> 00:00:51.715 Principal is a proud member of the BE Podcast Network, which is a great place to go for all your education focused podcasts. 00:00:52.195 --> 00:01:01.375 Come here and we've got 50 shows or so on the podcast Network and you can go find something for your role and if, if there's something that's not for you. 00:01:01.855 --> 00:01:04.225 Reach out to me and let's make something for you. 00:01:04.225 --> 00:01:05.515 That would be awesome. 00:01:06.175 --> 00:01:07.255 Uh, today I'm excited to 00:01:08.365 --> 00:01:09.265 on the program. 00:01:09.295 --> 00:01:17.935 He is the co-founder of Reset Teen Coaching, and he was previously the founder and executive director of Match Charter School, charter High School in Boston. 00:01:18.265 --> 00:01:24.535 And his new book is called, I'll Do It Later, surviving School and Renewing the Love With Your Teenage Son. 00:01:25.015 --> 00:01:28.075 So Mike, welcome, uh, thanks for being here today. 00:01:29.200 --> 00:01:29.920 To be here. 00:01:29.920 --> 00:01:36.040 What we need to open with, if I have this right, is that you're doing hundreds of burpees. 00:01:36.280 --> 00:01:38.740 Is that, did I get that correct? 00:01:38.770 --> 00:01:44.980 Like WI, I immediately read that and felt ashamed own lack of. 00:01:46.275 --> 00:01:53.175 my physical exercise into a, you know, larger cause. 00:01:53.205 --> 00:01:57.915 Could I, did, I don't even know if I'm allowed to ask a question, but I know about that. 00:01:58.375 --> 00:01:58.675 Yeah. 00:01:58.675 --> 00:01:59.335 for sure. 00:01:59.335 --> 00:02:08.965 And uh, it's funny because I am really, really struggling with working out right now, and I did that for Lent earlier this year. 00:02:08.965 --> 00:02:19.735 I've never done Lent before, so I did it for the first time and I wrote a book during that time called Latter Day Lent, uh, which you can, anybody who's interested can go check out. 00:02:19.795 --> 00:02:22.435 And, um, it was my first experience doing it. 00:02:22.435 --> 00:02:23.335 And what, and my. 00:02:24.505 --> 00:02:30.145 Some of my Catholic friends said that you, you give something up or you give yourself a burden. 00:02:30.295 --> 00:02:34.465 And so I gave a burden, which was to do a hundred burpees every day. 00:02:34.495 --> 00:02:45.115 And so I did that during the whole time of lent and up getting, about 4,500, uh, burpees in during those, those 40 or so days. 00:02:45.565 --> 00:02:47.635 And it was, it was good. 00:02:47.635 --> 00:02:49.855 And what's so fascinating is that. 00:02:50.455 --> 00:02:52.195 figured out the time to do it. 00:02:52.195 --> 00:02:57.595 I figured out what I needed to, to do to make sure that I had it, and, and I did it. 00:02:57.655 --> 00:03:03.175 And then, um, that ended and I did it for a few more days because I, I was in the habit. 00:03:03.175 --> 00:03:13.675 And then, um, and then over the summer I just basically, uh, gave up on all my workouts and I don't know why, and I don't know what caused that. 00:03:13.675 --> 00:03:19.525 But I have really been struggling for the last, uh, four months of actually doing anything. 00:03:20.365 --> 00:03:20.995 physical. 00:03:20.995 --> 00:03:25.285 And so just a couple weeks ago I said, all right, I'm gonna start walking again. 00:03:25.675 --> 00:03:28.225 And so I go on walks each day and I try. 00:03:28.585 --> 00:03:34.525 I tried and it worked for about a week to get 10,000 steps in before I ate breakfast. 00:03:34.585 --> 00:03:41.095 Um, yeah, it's been a real struggle and uh, and I'm not doing it right now, but I've been thinking that I should. 00:03:41.305 --> 00:03:44.575 So you might be the inspiration for me to get back on, back on track. 00:03:45.535 --> 00:03:57.055 Well, first of all, I'm, I'm loving this because I feel like this story pretty organically connects to a lot of what we observe with teenagers struggling with executive function, right? 00:03:57.055 --> 00:04:03.025 Like a very common story is you meet kids 00:04:05.095 --> 00:04:08.845 You know, mom calls up, Hey, kiddo, can't get their homework done. 00:04:09.865 --> 00:04:22.495 You talk to kiddo he's essentially like you described the, the burpees where, you know, it's like seven o'clock. 00:04:23.530 --> 00:04:27.310 Good faith, like I wanna sit down and do my homework. 00:04:27.970 --> 00:04:31.120 7 0 7. I haven't quite gotten started. 00:04:32.200 --> 00:04:36.640 7 29. I'm starting to feel bad about this thing. 00:04:36.640 --> 00:04:39.970 I've picked up my phone and this whole cycle has happened. 00:04:40.780 --> 00:04:48.970 so I do think, like since so many of us struggle to do exercise, but if we are school leaders. 00:04:49.750 --> 00:04:52.600 We've probably done pretty well academically. 00:04:52.600 --> 00:04:57.130 Not everybody, and we've all have different paths, but there's a certain amount of achievement it takes. 00:04:58.030 --> 00:05:17.380 I, I think those are good analogs because, you know, what's the conventional wisdom about kids who struggle with, you know, executive function I think maps pretty well to a lot of our personal journeys of going high and low on exercise and, finding it for a while, and then losing it again. 00:05:18.120 --> 00:05:21.570 Yeah, and, and it's interesting because I know. 00:05:22.330 --> 00:05:32.170 The right thing to do, and I know what I want to do deep down, and yet I sometimes cannot get my body and often cannot get my body to follow through on it. 00:05:32.200 --> 00:05:33.430 Same with eating right. 00:05:33.430 --> 00:05:34.510 And those kinds of things. 00:05:34.510 --> 00:05:51.205 And you know, it just is is one of those things that, um, especially kids with A DHD is they, they probably know what they should be doing and just can't figure out how to make those things happen. 00:05:52.015 --> 00:05:58.555 And sometimes it's a, it's a will issue where they, they want it deep down, but they certainly don't want it on the surface. 00:05:58.555 --> 00:06:00.445 And something else is more enticing right now. 00:06:00.835 --> 00:06:07.140 And other times it's a, they really want it and they literally cannot figure out how to make it come to pass. 00:06:09.310 --> 00:06:13.210 Yeah, and I think we wrote this book, so our little book is called, I'll Do It Later. 00:06:13.210 --> 00:06:14.890 It's a Breezy read. 00:06:15.250 --> 00:06:29.945 Um, and we wanted to do case studies of actual teens where we kind of track this up and down behavior where you show 'em a strategy, you wonder if it'll work and it doesn't, and then you try strategy two. 00:06:31.735 --> 00:06:36.055 That one doesn't, and then you try strategy three and it clicks. 00:06:36.055 --> 00:06:45.175 Although you had no way of understanding why or predicting accurately that it would until four months later when it stops working and you kind of need to be back there. 00:06:45.865 --> 00:06:58.255 I feel like of the things that Sean Garrity and I, the co-author and I, and as guys who spent a fair amount of time in schools ourselves, one of the things. 00:06:59.095 --> 00:07:13.405 I would Provo provoke, I suppose on EF is I don't like how neatly the canon is organized, where people are like, all right, here's like the tier one binders and checklists and how to be more organized. 00:07:13.705 --> 00:07:18.025 Here's the tier two internal processes around time sense and self-talk. 00:07:18.030 --> 00:07:27.355 It's sort of like presented if there's this cannon of expertise, then we, educators are supposed to impart it to kids. 00:07:29.050 --> 00:07:35.710 When you meet teens that are struggling with this, that story doesn't usually hold up. 00:07:35.770 --> 00:07:40.575 In other words, if you really audit the interventionists, they're. 00:07:41.440 --> 00:07:47.770 They're having a lot of failures along the way at the people they're supposed to be coaching and they're not really disclosing that. 00:07:48.760 --> 00:07:57.220 And so I feel like part of this is like, can we all get honest and have more of a Sherlock Holmes curious puzzle mentality. 00:07:57.220 --> 00:08:10.345 It sounds like you have that a little bit about yourself and exercise, but it's like, can, can even the educators that are supposed to be working on this more open the trial and error nature of this work with teams. 00:08:12.600 --> 00:08:12.960 Yeah. 00:08:12.960 --> 00:08:21.180 You know, that's something that's so fascinating to me because we act like we have all the right answers in education, but the reality is, is that we don't, for. 00:08:21.420 --> 00:08:31.080 Of all and we're doing every single time is just trying our best to do something with, with what we've got in front of us. 00:08:31.110 --> 00:08:44.250 And, and there is this perception, especially in schools, that is a one single right way to do things and that is the, the way that we should all do it. 00:08:44.280 --> 00:08:49.260 And so, for example, paper planner system, I have tried. 00:08:49.600 --> 00:08:52.360 Numerous times in my life to make that work. 00:08:53.140 --> 00:08:56.170 the paper planner system does not work for me. 00:08:56.620 --> 00:09:06.280 And what does work is a digital, organization thing, that I can see here are the things that I need to do next. 00:09:06.280 --> 00:09:10.570 and even that I struggle with because I have. 00:09:11.050 --> 00:09:11.890 I have this 00:09:12.010 --> 00:09:12.550 Have this, 00:09:12.790 --> 00:09:17.110 of what needs to be accomplished and then I do the things that are most important in the moment. 00:09:17.470 --> 00:09:18.940 And, and I worry 00:09:19.180 --> 00:09:20.304 I worry less about 00:09:21.520 --> 00:09:23.530 you know, following this, this to-do list. 00:09:23.530 --> 00:09:26.140 What really works is having the tools at my 00:09:26.305 --> 00:09:26.505 tools. 00:09:26.710 --> 00:09:29.230 to be able to do whatever I need to do at that time. 00:09:30.490 --> 00:09:33.220 And that's a, an interesting thing is that 00:09:33.340 --> 00:09:33.910 Thing is that 00:09:33.970 --> 00:09:35.980 their own unique way of going about things. 00:09:35.980 --> 00:09:38.350 And sure, there are some things that work for a lot of people. 00:09:38.725 --> 00:09:46.405 But that doesn't mean that they're going to work for everybody all the time, and we need to recognize that and be okay with 00:09:46.520 --> 00:09:47.379 everybody's okay with that? 00:09:47.485 --> 00:09:48.175 try this different 00:09:48.370 --> 00:09:48.885 try this to 00:09:49.465 --> 00:09:50.275 be more focused 00:09:50.495 --> 00:09:50.775 more focused. 00:09:50.785 --> 00:09:54.505 the multitude of strategies rather than the one right way to do things. 00:09:55.620 --> 00:09:55.740 I. 00:09:56.080 --> 00:09:59.650 Yeah, Jethro, I a hundred percent co-sign on that. 00:09:59.650 --> 00:10:06.910 And in fact, the way we organize this little book, 'cause I mean there must be 87,000 books about executive function. 00:10:06.910 --> 00:10:10.810 So we're like, what's the marginal value of, of the 87,000? 00:10:10.810 --> 00:10:22.180 And first, probably low, but the way we organized it is we took these four teens and we created five or six questions about each one. 00:10:22.180 --> 00:10:23.110 So if you're reading it. 00:10:24.010 --> 00:10:27.370 It's like, here's the interaction, here's a strategy. 00:10:27.370 --> 00:10:34.900 We are about to try the, you know, reset coach is about to try it with this particular kid. 00:10:35.080 --> 00:10:39.130 And as a reader, before you turn the page, what do you think happened? 00:10:40.120 --> 00:10:45.315 And we do that format and I'll, I'll, I'll preview it as to say about half of these things work, half don't. 00:10:46.195 --> 00:10:54.745 And no way anybody's ever, you know, been particularly accurate about guessing which ones worked and which ones didn't. 00:10:55.915 --> 00:11:06.385 when we do it with like people inside of a school, what we're trying to teach is the humility that you're going to try different things for different kids. 00:11:07.255 --> 00:11:13.225 have no professional way to guess how they will respond to different treatments. 00:11:13.225 --> 00:11:14.660 It's kind of just a shot in the dark. 00:11:16.045 --> 00:11:23.695 And if you can take that kind of curious approach, it helps you and the kid to not get discouraged. 00:11:23.965 --> 00:11:30.085 So in your example of the, you know, getting organized, it's like, hey, like I've been trying to keep track in this notebook. 00:11:30.085 --> 00:11:37.345 And then it's like, coach Mike says to young Jethro, okay, let's try this digital approach, but that doesn't work. 00:11:37.525 --> 00:11:39.475 It's like, okay, let's not get freaked out. 00:11:39.475 --> 00:11:41.095 We'll try this, we'll try that. 00:11:41.155 --> 00:11:44.335 And you're sort of iterating with this. 00:11:45.115 --> 00:11:53.035 Expectation of lots of sort of small failures along the way, which is not really the way it works. 00:11:53.035 --> 00:11:58.345 If you believe clinically, like you pretty much know what's best and you're gonna be right 90% of the time. 00:12:00.100 --> 00:12:07.715 Yeah, so, so talk a little bit about how, um, how A DHD is 00:12:09.865 --> 00:12:16.885 One of the, one of the ways that people manage it is by giving medication or accommodations or whatever. 00:12:17.275 --> 00:12:26.485 And, and sometimes those things work, but sometimes they, they actually do more harm than good and they don't help the kid in the way that we want them to. 00:12:26.485 --> 00:12:29.905 And a lot of kids report feeling like they're not themselves. 00:12:29.905 --> 00:12:32.360 And one of the things that I've. 00:12:33.385 --> 00:12:47.245 That I've talked a lot about with kids with, with all kinds of disabilities, but certainly with A DHD, is you have to recognize that this is just a system that you have to get through and then you can live your life however you want 00:12:47.485 --> 00:12:48.345 Yes, yes. 00:12:48.715 --> 00:12:52.915 and, so that's not great advice, but it is. 00:12:52.975 --> 00:12:53.995 It is the reality. 00:12:53.995 --> 00:12:57.295 Like you, school is not designed for kids. 00:12:57.685 --> 00:13:02.275 With a DHD and school's not designed for most kids, to be honest. 00:13:02.575 --> 00:13:06.955 It's, it's definitely designed for the adults in the building to make life easy for them. 00:13:07.405 --> 00:13:24.145 Um, but comes to to to kids with a DHD specifically, how, how do you frame that in a way that is like, there's a better way to do this and it's not just, you know, struggle through school and then you can live your life. 00:13:25.795 --> 00:13:27.865 Yeah, so two great points there. 00:13:27.925 --> 00:13:32.755 I, I'll hit the what you were just talking about and then let's return to this medication question. 00:13:33.955 --> 00:13:39.775 So you meet a kid and the kid says, listen, mom's on my case. 00:13:39.835 --> 00:13:41.575 I'm struggling in school. 00:13:42.385 --> 00:13:43.345 not going well. 00:13:44.245 --> 00:13:47.965 And I do think there is value in keeping it real. 00:13:48.505 --> 00:13:57.625 And what you're saying that kind of tries to thread the needle is acknowledging that high school is likely to continue to be challenging for you. 00:13:58.285 --> 00:14:00.685 It's to say if you do go to college, that will. 00:14:00.985 --> 00:14:09.265 Probably be even worse 'cause there's less structure, although there's an upside if you can find, you know, subjects that you are deeply interested in. 00:14:09.265 --> 00:14:11.155 Because then the A DHD doesn't apply. 00:14:11.155 --> 00:14:16.195 A DHD is basically how we react all the things that feel like chores. 00:14:17.485 --> 00:14:25.525 And you know, if you're suddenly fascinated with public policy and you're majoring in that, might find that, you know, you're able to get a lot more stuff done. 00:14:25.525 --> 00:14:29.605 So college can cut both ways, but expect a grind there. 00:14:30.985 --> 00:14:53.425 I think the way to thread the needle is instead of saying, I will be one more adult in your life who will hand you a bunch of strategies if it will cure your condition, it's to accept that it's chronic and instead say what I'm trying to accomplish. 00:14:54.175 --> 00:14:57.595 we meet 30 minutes on Sunday, 30 minutes on Wednesday. 00:14:58.690 --> 00:15:03.040 I'm just trying to unlock more independent hours of work by you. 00:15:03.880 --> 00:15:07.000 It's like it's just gain over baseline. 00:15:07.060 --> 00:15:17.800 So if you're reporting, you're basically doing five real hours of work week with a coach's help, can you do 12? 00:15:17.890 --> 00:15:26.680 Can you do 15 in the same way, Jethro, like I love walking, so I have no trouble getting all my steps. 00:15:27.085 --> 00:15:29.545 I love basketball, so I have no trouble. 00:15:29.545 --> 00:15:31.615 Kind of like keeping up with the cardio. 00:15:31.705 --> 00:15:33.985 I hate strength training, hate it. 00:15:34.345 --> 00:15:35.125 Won't do it. 00:15:35.815 --> 00:15:54.715 I pay Ashley like two miles away, go over to like my personal trainer and like I know how to do these lifts, but if I don't and what she's trying to do is unlock, you know, my overall, helping me with the things that I don't really want to do. 00:15:55.330 --> 00:16:04.150 I think that like with coaching, can unlock more independent time from the kid, except that it's chronic and keep it real. 00:16:04.150 --> 00:16:09.040 That high school might be a grind for you, make them better than they were before. 00:16:09.220 --> 00:16:16.915 That's I think, where kids get excited and then their parents get pumped if they see the kid now starting to, let's say, reasonably flourish in school. 00:16:17.455 --> 00:16:22.760 Yeah, so tell me more about this idea of A DHD only applies to things that feel like chores. 00:16:24.190 --> 00:16:35.290 So I think there's a lot of layers to this and I don't know like how technical versus layperson, we should keep this, but I would say, and I think this will connect back to your. 00:16:36.400 --> 00:16:47.740 Uh, previous question about medication, I feel like one of the best recent treatments of the larger, what is a DHD and how do we treatment is Paul Tuft's article from April. 00:16:48.505 --> 00:17:06.025 Of this year, of 2025 in the New York Times Magazine, and that article basically says he's interviewing the leading lights in A DHD research in medication research, they're feverishly disagreeing about. 00:17:06.400 --> 00:17:07.810 What is a DHD? 00:17:08.440 --> 00:17:10.300 What is the role of medication? 00:17:10.750 --> 00:17:12.220 Does it help long term? 00:17:12.610 --> 00:17:13.630 Who does it help? 00:17:13.960 --> 00:17:15.160 And all those kinds of things. 00:17:15.160 --> 00:17:21.970 I feel like that's a really good sort of long magazine article treatment of some of these questions. 00:17:22.750 --> 00:17:32.110 For now, I would just say a shorthand version that seems to work with many teens is they'll say. 00:17:33.895 --> 00:17:37.915 I find a lot of this stuff that I'm supposed to do fairly boring. 00:17:39.685 --> 00:17:45.835 If there happens to be a topic that I find interesting, I don't have these kind of motivation and follow through issues. 00:17:45.865 --> 00:18:00.715 In other words, like I'm excited about my band and I don't find that I have the same degree of executive function challenges as it, you know, comes to showing up for practice and making the flyers and getting organized. 00:18:01.465 --> 00:18:01.825 So. 00:18:02.815 --> 00:18:20.815 While there is a domain of executive function that broadly applies, I think what seems to resonate the most with teens, if you're just sort of willing to stipulate, look, keeping up with, you know, math, english, science, history, some of those subjects you might find is, you know, uninteresting. 00:18:21.445 --> 00:18:25.765 And as a result, your motivation to know what's expected. 00:18:26.755 --> 00:18:31.885 To sit there and launch whatever your task is that night and to persist with it. 00:18:32.665 --> 00:18:37.255 Those are all kind of compared to some of your classmates. 00:18:37.705 --> 00:18:40.345 And so the question is how do we best work around that? 00:18:41.215 --> 00:18:41.245 I. 00:18:43.045 --> 00:18:47.725 Yeah, and what I appreciate about that approach is that it is freeing. 00:18:48.145 --> 00:19:02.035 To the person that there's not something wrong with them, which is how all of these things get portrayed, but that they are different from the norm and that that is actually an okay thing. 00:19:02.125 --> 00:19:04.705 And all of us are different from the norm. 00:19:04.915 --> 00:19:13.315 And the norm is this conglomeration of things that, uh, that person who is the dorm doesn't exist because everybody's a variation from that. 00:19:13.345 --> 00:19:13.825 So. 00:19:14.230 --> 00:19:35.260 Um, so the, the thing that's really beneficial there is that it, it is valuable to see that you're not broken or, or a terrible human being, just that you're, you're not built in the way that this system was designed for, and, and that's okay. 00:19:35.350 --> 00:19:37.480 And we can figure out a way to work through that. 00:19:37.510 --> 00:19:40.870 And if we do that in an appropriate way, then I think that it's. 00:19:41.695 --> 00:19:44.455 Very beneficial for everybody involved. 00:19:44.455 --> 00:19:47.665 I did link to that, uh, that article. 00:19:47.665 --> 00:19:49.795 Have we been thinking about a DHD All wrong. 00:19:49.795 --> 00:19:50.455 Is that the one? 00:19:51.955 --> 00:19:52.375 Excellent. 00:19:52.375 --> 00:20:03.775 So I linked to that in the show notes at Transformative Principal dot org so people can go check it out and read it because, uh, that is definitely, I think a beneficial, thing to, to look at. 00:20:03.775 --> 00:20:06.535 And I remember seeing that come out and I didn't read it then. 00:20:06.925 --> 00:20:09.235 Uh, but I'm gonna read it now, so thank you. 00:20:10.435 --> 00:20:14.540 Hey, uh, one thing I wonder about, I'm curious about with, with, you know. 00:20:16.000 --> 00:20:25.390 Your work with school leaders, I'll tell you a conflict that I felt and feel, and I'm curious how you react to it. 00:20:25.390 --> 00:20:35.350 So I think as a school leader, you know, most of us probably agree that one of the key attributes a kid needs to develop is a sense of grit and persistence 00:20:37.855 --> 00:20:43.405 I, our message at Match Charter School was like, we'll do more than meet you halfway. 00:20:43.435 --> 00:20:46.165 We will, you know, work around the clock. 00:20:46.405 --> 00:20:49.885 If you put in the effort, we'll be right there, you know, sort of by your side. 00:20:50.245 --> 00:20:53.395 We'll build close relationships with you to motivate you and so forth. 00:20:54.235 --> 00:21:03.235 And some kids who had not in their prior schools, ever tried hard, responded well to that message. 00:21:03.655 --> 00:21:04.105 It's kind of. 00:21:04.870 --> 00:21:08.920 We care, we know you can do it, suck it up, work hard. 00:21:09.040 --> 00:21:12.310 And, and they changed their behavior and that was really good. 00:21:12.940 --> 00:21:30.490 And yet there was another cohort of kids that, in good faith, tried to react in that, but probably, you know, on the A DHD scale, were probably farther along and so they struggled. 00:21:31.495 --> 00:21:38.515 Even in the face of like teachers who've built these really close relationships and all these kind of sort of school scaffolding. 00:21:39.775 --> 00:21:43.975 And so it made me wonder like, what is our message to school leaders? 00:21:43.975 --> 00:21:45.175 Which is pretty tricky. 00:21:45.175 --> 00:21:53.185 Like, I don't wanna give up the upside of a school leader that manages to get the whole team rowing, to get the kids trying really hard. 00:21:54.475 --> 00:22:05.995 By creating this big carve out of some type of exemptions for the kids who can't really grind out their homework, 7:00 PM 8:00 PM, 9:00 PM and so forth. 00:22:07.105 --> 00:22:08.875 And yet I don't wanna give that up. 00:22:09.650 --> 00:22:10.580 school effect. 00:22:10.760 --> 00:22:26.420 But here I am working pretty closely and very sympathetic with a lot of teenagers that there's no version of the school within reason that's going to easily unlock them to independently be good at doing this kind of homework. 00:22:26.420 --> 00:22:28.340 And I, I feel some kind of tension there. 00:22:28.340 --> 00:22:32.180 And actually totally sure what my message is to a school leader. 00:22:32.210 --> 00:22:33.950 'cause I think these are both trade offs. 00:22:33.950 --> 00:22:35.420 Are you trying to accommodate the kids? 00:22:36.505 --> 00:22:49.555 Are struggling in your system or are you trying to, you know, create a system that allows a lot of other kids to really find their grit for the first time and, and really perform for their teachers? 00:22:49.740 --> 00:22:49.860 I. 00:22:50.575 --> 00:22:55.555 Well, there are a couple, couple things that come off of this question in my mind. 00:22:56.035 --> 00:22:57.205 Uh, number one. 00:22:57.970 --> 00:23:08.080 Education is a responsibility of the family and the student and the school or the state or whatever steps in to support them in that. 00:23:08.470 --> 00:23:09.970 So that's number one. 00:23:10.060 --> 00:23:15.790 Instead of thinking that it's our responsibility as schools to teach students, we need 00:23:15.985 --> 00:23:16.285 need to. 00:23:16.510 --> 00:23:21.790 the reality of the situation, which is that it is family's responsibilities. 00:23:22.585 --> 00:23:26.215 raise and teach students and we just support them in that. 00:23:26.515 --> 00:23:35.515 So we need to take this position from, it's, all on us as the educators to, it's all on the parents, and they need help. 00:23:35.575 --> 00:23:36.595 Let's go help them. 00:23:37.075 --> 00:23:42.235 That number one, changes the frame and is number one, the appropriate thing. 00:23:42.235 --> 00:23:48.595 And number two helps us see that we don't, we may not have to do as much as we originally thought. 00:23:49.705 --> 00:24:03.655 The second thing along the lines of what, what you're talking about specifically in your question is that homework is unethical and it is inappropriate for a school to say to a family, this is how you should spend your time at home. 00:24:04.045 --> 00:24:05.575 That's absolutely inappropriate. 00:24:05.575 --> 00:24:12.150 And I made that very clear with my teachers and they knew if they ever had a problem, somebody arguing about homework. 00:24:12.925 --> 00:24:17.515 They were not going to get support from me because I believe that it's unethical. 00:24:17.515 --> 00:24:20.275 So like, I'm not gonna be on your side. 00:24:20.275 --> 00:24:21.265 And that's all there is to it. 00:24:21.295 --> 00:24:28.195 And, and that's good to know because then people understand, okay, I'm not gonna have a fight about this. 00:24:28.315 --> 00:24:30.175 And we can, we can move that along. 00:24:30.205 --> 00:24:31.165 And if, if we 00:24:31.450 --> 00:24:31.670 We. 00:24:31.795 --> 00:24:39.025 what we need to do in the time we have the kids at school, we're either asking, expecting to do too much or. 00:24:39.715 --> 00:24:46.165 We're not using our time wisely in school and we know that we are not using our time wisely in school because there is so much wasted time. 00:24:46.675 --> 00:24:57.115 So, so those are a couple pieces that those basic assumptions and beliefs, they're in place, this changes the whole dynamic of the conversation. 00:24:57.565 --> 00:25:02.755 And so does a parent want their kid to learn grit and resilience? 00:25:03.055 --> 00:25:03.775 Yes. 00:25:03.865 --> 00:25:05.545 Every single one of them does. 00:25:05.755 --> 00:25:06.235 No matter how. 00:25:07.225 --> 00:25:11.635 Uninvolved, do you think that parent may be, they want their kid to learn that. 00:25:11.665 --> 00:25:16.495 And so how do you partner with the parent instead of asking the parent to partner with you? 00:25:17.455 --> 00:25:21.835 How do you partner with them to teach these things to them and to their kids? 00:25:22.105 --> 00:25:24.625 That's what the, the key really comes down to. 00:25:24.625 --> 00:25:32.875 And then the third thing that I'll say about that is that every single person's educational journey is unique. 00:25:33.655 --> 00:25:53.725 if they are a twin and have been in the same classes as their twin the whole entire time, their individual educational journey is unique and we have to respect that and recognize that and appreciate that and, and lean into that, that they're going to have a different experience than the kids next to 'em in the same classroom. 00:25:54.070 --> 00:25:59.380 And even if they heard the same exact things from their teachers, they're going to have different understandings of what's there. 00:25:59.680 --> 00:26:15.190 And rather than thinking that that's a bad thing, we need to recognize that that is exactly how learning works, and that everybody's path is unique and different, and we have to accept that and lean into that and provide tools and supports recognizing that that's the case. 00:26:15.400 --> 00:26:18.670 So those three core assumptions are, um. 00:26:19.075 --> 00:26:20.395 Are are the main things. 00:26:21.647 --> 00:26:27.897 response, one thing that you said, it's so interesting to hear the, you know. 00:26:28.562 --> 00:26:31.682 Homework take and to connect that to parents. 00:26:31.682 --> 00:26:44.912 I would say a typical mom, it's probably 90% moms who would call up reset team coaching and say, our kid has a DHD, we've tried this, that the other thing, it's not working. 00:26:44.912 --> 00:26:45.482 Please help. 00:26:46.712 --> 00:26:55.232 A very common way to help, I'm trying to connect the, the, the homework question to the parent question. 00:26:56.912 --> 00:27:05.162 A lot of parents are getting tripped up because is assigning a lot of homework. 00:27:05.192 --> 00:27:24.482 They have an LMS, you know, Google Classroom or Schoology or whatever, but it's really six free agent teachers, like the math teacher uses it differently than the science teacher, the English, and it actually takes them real detective work just to know what kiddo is supposed to do. 00:27:25.577 --> 00:27:27.557 Like that's not easy. 00:27:27.977 --> 00:27:40.547 And it's particularly difficult the context of that question between mom and teen, or in our case like teen's son, is a little bit antagonistic. 00:27:40.607 --> 00:27:44.897 Like the kid's already like, oh, you're already on my case and now you're trying to figure out what I have tonight. 00:27:44.897 --> 00:27:50.177 So the kid's not necessarily helping the kid, by the way, isn't necessarily that great at navigating this stuff. 00:27:50.177 --> 00:27:53.147 Anyway, to your point of earlier about, you know, it's hard for. 00:27:53.882 --> 00:28:00.182 People to find organization systems that work and school imposes the same system on everybody. 00:28:00.452 --> 00:28:02.162 Teachers are using this differently. 00:28:02.162 --> 00:28:05.012 They're basically hiding assignments in different spots. 00:28:05.342 --> 00:28:17.702 And so a very easy win put up on the board that moms seem to like is obviously if you're an educator and you've been around the block and you know all these systems, you kind of know where to click and where to look. 00:28:18.422 --> 00:28:19.382 I think a coach. 00:28:20.267 --> 00:28:27.062 Can often find in five minutes what's due in something that might take a parent two hours and they're still gonna miss stuff 00:28:28.187 --> 00:28:28.847 Well, and 00:28:29.122 --> 00:28:29.622 oh, go ahead. 00:28:29.622 --> 00:28:29.782 Yeah. 00:28:30.162 --> 00:28:32.657 I I, I have four kids myself. 00:28:32.957 --> 00:28:35.537 Uh, three of them are still in high school and middle school. 00:28:36.767 --> 00:28:39.857 finding the things for them is a nightmare. 00:28:39.977 --> 00:28:47.717 And despite teachers' best efforts, and I, I believe they're trying to do what's right and trying their best to do good work. 00:28:48.107 --> 00:28:50.807 Uh, I don't know what's going on in my kids' classes. 00:28:50.867 --> 00:28:52.487 And I am an educator. 00:28:52.727 --> 00:28:57.857 I've been a principal and I know how to navigate the system, and I'm still confused. 00:28:58.832 --> 00:29:18.332 Well, that's actually I think a piece of advice for school leaders to consider would be, you know, back when Jeff Bezos was starting Amazon famously, he would take shifts in customer service, deal with like the frustration of navigating his. 00:29:19.157 --> 00:29:24.917 Company, his online company, and then he would call up people on his team and light 'em up, right? 00:29:24.917 --> 00:29:26.237 Like, Hey, fix this. 00:29:26.237 --> 00:29:27.017 You know, I'm just whatever. 00:29:27.917 --> 00:29:41.447 I think school leaders, than some of these really elaborate efforts to try to help A DHD through this whole school embedding of like 27 different strategies. 00:29:41.477 --> 00:29:41.837 I don't know. 00:29:41.987 --> 00:29:44.867 It is just hard to get to the finish line on some of that stuff. 00:29:44.867 --> 00:29:45.632 It's like very well intentioned. 00:29:46.757 --> 00:29:59.357 I do think a school leader, if they just audit, say, all right, I'm gonna be, you know, Joe Smith, the kid, and I'm gonna log in and try to figure out what I have. 00:30:00.257 --> 00:30:09.557 And just as a very routine thing, I'm gonna see how long does it take me the principal actually correctly know what is due tomorrow? 00:30:10.517 --> 00:30:12.107 And then I'm gonna let. 00:30:12.482 --> 00:30:15.512 All of the teachers know what it was today. 00:30:15.512 --> 00:30:16.622 It took 23 minutes. 00:30:16.622 --> 00:30:17.852 Yesterday, it took four. 00:30:18.152 --> 00:30:21.272 Tomorrow it takes 77, and I still got it wrong. 00:30:22.382 --> 00:30:29.342 I feel like that's a productive, where the, the CEO that Jeff Bezos, the school leader, stepped in. 00:30:30.062 --> 00:30:39.417 has a particularly large positive effect for A DHD students and their parents, obviously, because organized kids. 00:30:40.352 --> 00:30:41.252 They're just gonna know. 00:30:41.522 --> 00:30:43.442 They're attuned to all the little clues. 00:30:43.442 --> 00:30:47.552 And they noticed when the science teacher mentioned as class was being dismissed, blah, blah, blah. 00:30:47.552 --> 00:30:48.272 They picked that up. 00:30:48.272 --> 00:30:49.562 They're always good at that. 00:30:50.492 --> 00:31:00.572 this group of kids, Jethro that we're talking about, even if they wanna sit down and get stuff done, they struggle with it and, and I think principals can make a dent there. 00:31:00.572 --> 00:31:01.742 It seems plausible to me. 00:31:03.287 --> 00:31:04.157 Yeah, for sure. 00:31:04.157 --> 00:31:07.007 And those, those, those kinds of things. 00:31:07.487 --> 00:31:23.622 You know, I, one of the other things that I talk about in my speeches is I ask participants who taught them how to use, uh, Amazon and, nobody says they went to a class and got a lesson on how to use Amazon. 00:31:24.272 --> 00:31:32.072 And part of the issue, uh, and I have a a, a podcast about this with, uh, Damon Hargraves where we talk about school software. 00:31:32.552 --> 00:31:38.402 Part of the issue is that school software is very complex to navigate and Amazon. 00:31:38.762 --> 00:31:48.002 Like, they're literally taking your money and you figured out how to give them your money because they had something that you wanted to buy, and, and they made 00:31:48.332 --> 00:31:49.352 it so easy 00:31:49.412 --> 00:31:53.072 you don't even remember not knowing how to use Amazon. 00:31:53.372 --> 00:31:58.742 You just know that it's there and it's saved and like you just go buy stuff and like somehow. 00:31:59.702 --> 00:32:03.182 Millions of people have figured out how to do that without ever 00:32:03.437 --> 00:32:03.857 taking 00:32:04.412 --> 00:32:05.672 use Amazon class. 00:32:05.732 --> 00:32:07.922 And maybe some people have made YouTube videos. 00:32:07.922 --> 00:32:08.342 Sure. 00:32:08.762 --> 00:32:11.732 But you also went and found the answer to that. 00:32:11.822 --> 00:32:16.112 You know, you searched or you asked someone, or you figured it out on your own. 00:32:16.382 --> 00:32:17.522 And that's part of the issue, 00:32:17.927 --> 00:32:18.347 is that 00:32:18.572 --> 00:32:18.962 to make 00:32:19.337 --> 00:32:19.817 tools, that 00:32:20.072 --> 00:32:23.132 and easy people to see what's 00:32:23.237 --> 00:32:24.707 what's going on needs to be there. 00:32:24.962 --> 00:32:25.442 and the 00:32:25.697 --> 00:32:26.207 The fact that 00:32:26.402 --> 00:32:27.902 uses it different is the same thing as 00:32:28.182 --> 00:32:28.757 it rates, 00:32:28.892 --> 00:32:29.252 Uh, 00:32:29.657 --> 00:32:29.957 grades 00:32:30.002 --> 00:32:35.342 completely made up because up their own way of assigning points and what it looks like and all that kind of stuff. 00:32:35.342 --> 00:32:39.812 So it becomes this artificial thing that is very difficult for anybody 00:32:39.987 --> 00:32:40.847 Need to navigate 00:32:40.862 --> 00:32:41.042 but 00:32:41.297 --> 00:32:42.377 especially difficult 00:32:42.992 --> 00:32:43.892 certain people. 00:32:43.982 --> 00:32:44.432 People with 00:32:45.002 --> 00:32:45.532 ADHD with 00:32:45.902 --> 00:32:47.462 other disabilities makes 00:32:47.567 --> 00:32:48.677 makes it really difficult for 00:32:49.202 --> 00:32:50.642 and, and figure out. 00:32:51.782 --> 00:32:52.562 And very 00:32:52.757 --> 00:32:53.687 very difficult to put. 00:32:53.777 --> 00:32:55.802 Highly educated, very smart. 00:32:56.792 --> 00:33:02.042 who don't understand the system and aren't in it every day, makes it difficult for them as well. 00:33:02.042 --> 00:33:06.452 So, so there are a lot of, uh, challenges here for sure. 00:33:06.782 --> 00:33:07.262 Um. 00:33:07.537 --> 00:33:09.727 As we are, uh, just about out of time 00:33:10.022 --> 00:33:10.382 Out time 00:33:10.717 --> 00:33:12.547 this has been a, a great conversation 00:33:12.722 --> 00:33:13.142 conversation 00:33:13.177 --> 00:33:16.597 much more that we could have, uh, gotten to, but, but we didn't make 00:33:16.772 --> 00:33:17.432 didn't make it. 00:33:17.432 --> 00:33:17.631 So 00:33:17.677 --> 00:33:17.857 may, 00:33:17.857 --> 00:33:19.267 need to get back together. 00:33:19.627 --> 00:33:23.617 My last question is, uh, is about leadership. 00:33:24.457 --> 00:33:24.637 is 00:33:24.747 --> 00:33:25.427 what is one 00:33:25.567 --> 00:33:27.367 that a principal can do this week 00:33:27.482 --> 00:33:27.812 week? 00:33:27.817 --> 00:33:29.647 transformative leader like you? 00:33:29.647 --> 00:33:30.007 Mike. 00:33:32.312 --> 00:33:33.302 What a great question. 00:33:33.302 --> 00:33:35.432 Is this a go-to question that you, you 00:33:36.152 --> 00:33:36.452 Th 00:33:36.842 --> 00:33:37.682 often use? 00:33:37.682 --> 00:33:39.152 This is the, the key. 00:33:39.182 --> 00:33:42.981 The key question and I'm stalling 'cause I'm like, oh, I wish I could come up with something 00:33:43.052 --> 00:33:48.842 let me explain it So here's the thing, people listen to this podcast every week, thousands of people, and it's awesome. 00:33:48.842 --> 00:33:52.172 Thank you all for listening and this is all a great discussion. 00:33:52.172 --> 00:33:55.442 But then they really wanna know like, what, what do I need to 00:33:55.577 --> 00:33:55.797 Yes. 00:33:56.732 --> 00:34:05.312 What's my next step and, and I ask this question every single time because I want people to have an actionable thing that they can do after listening. 00:34:05.372 --> 00:34:09.842 And this is episode almost like 6, 6 90 or something like that. 00:34:09.842 --> 00:34:14.817 So we've been around for a long time and it's important to know. 00:34:15.992 --> 00:34:17.252 What, what do I do? 00:34:17.252 --> 00:34:18.962 So, so what's the next step? 00:34:19.172 --> 00:34:24.002 So make it simple, make it make it sweet so somebody can say, yep, I did that. 00:34:24.002 --> 00:34:26.642 And that's one step closer to being a Transformative Principal. 00:34:27.332 --> 00:34:45.482 I think a Transformative Principal can consider that the hours of school, eight-ish to three-ish, whatever, don't really line up well with where A DHD kids get most stuck, which is Monday through Thursday from seven to 11 at night, and something to consider. 00:34:46.142 --> 00:34:48.752 And I realize these can be very delicate conversations. 00:34:49.772 --> 00:34:58.967 But your support staff may be trying to help kids at the wrong time, not the moment of inflection. 00:35:00.347 --> 00:35:25.367 If you happen to have anybody on your team that would be willing zoom, help kids in the evening and possibly to trade off daytime hours, that could be a very powerful experiment because so many kids describe getting stuck after dinner up to the bedroom, intend to do some stuff, devices, it's gone. 00:35:25.487 --> 00:35:26.837 And it's precisely what. 00:35:28.042 --> 00:35:40.642 function coaches, like the, the ones we have at reset, that's when we meet, we meet Sundays and we meet when the kids, you know, are, are, are about to try to sit down and get their stuff done. 00:35:42.322 --> 00:35:44.032 you know, maybe we'll leave it back. 00:35:44.032 --> 00:35:51.052 Jethro, where you started and you talked about, for example, up with your steps if. 00:35:52.022 --> 00:35:56.402 You know the action you should take is at the first moment this afternoon, right? 00:35:56.402 --> 00:36:02.132 That you can walk around Spokane and just get the first 2000 steps, right? 00:36:02.162 --> 00:36:03.482 Just get it started. 00:36:03.752 --> 00:36:06.092 That's like a couple blocks, no big deal. 00:36:07.112 --> 00:36:10.322 I think for kids, if their support person from a high school. 00:36:12.047 --> 00:36:14.192 It could just help them get going. 00:36:14.432 --> 00:36:17.672 That's often an unlock to start a positive spiral. 00:36:17.672 --> 00:36:19.892 So that would be my, my takeaway. 00:36:19.892 --> 00:36:21.362 Could you have that conversation? 00:36:21.572 --> 00:36:24.932 If you're really ambitious as a Transformative Principal, model it. 00:36:26.102 --> 00:36:32.072 See if you can grab a couple kids and for a week or two, be willing to help them on Zoom. 00:36:32.867 --> 00:36:34.967 To get organized and do their stuff. 00:36:35.027 --> 00:36:35.867 Tell your story. 00:36:35.867 --> 00:36:37.307 Share your stories with the teachers. 00:36:37.307 --> 00:36:43.547 They'll appreciate that you were in the trenches trying to help you know this particular kid, and you'll learn a lot doing it. 00:36:44.797 --> 00:36:52.847 Yeah, man, Mike, I think that's a great idea and don't worry about all the union stuff, about working specific contract hours and. 00:36:54.077 --> 00:37:00.377 start with some volunteers and, and try to figure something out and, and then you can work it into the bigger changes later. 00:37:00.377 --> 00:37:01.727 But that's definitely a good idea. 00:37:01.727 --> 00:37:11.027 And starting with yourself and saying, I'm gonna do homework help from seven to nine at night, like that, that may be a totally appropriate thing to do. 00:37:11.027 --> 00:37:15.227 So Mike, how can people get in touch with you and learn more from what you're doing? 00:37:15.947 --> 00:37:19.517 I think the easiest way is go to Reset Teen Coaching. 00:37:19.907 --> 00:37:22.877 You'll see our website, but also our contact information. 00:37:22.877 --> 00:37:24.107 Shoot me an email. 00:37:24.527 --> 00:37:25.097 Couple things. 00:37:25.097 --> 00:37:27.677 I'm happy to help with any school leader for free. 00:37:27.677 --> 00:37:33.167 One is if our book could be helpful to you or some of your support team, we'll get that right out to you. 00:37:33.467 --> 00:37:36.462 Second is we have some lists, some like. 00:37:37.452 --> 00:37:41.262 How to coach kids who have executive function issues. 00:37:41.262 --> 00:37:47.982 So you may have people on your team that are curious about it, they may be, or organically already trying to do it and they're just kind of winging it. 00:37:48.642 --> 00:37:52.062 Maybe some of the stuff we have could be useful to some people on your team. 00:37:52.062 --> 00:37:53.562 So feel free to shoot me an email. 00:37:53.562 --> 00:37:54.437 I promise to write right back. 00:37:55.542 --> 00:37:55.882 Yeah. 00:37:55.912 --> 00:37:56.362 Very good. 00:37:56.362 --> 00:38:01.132 Mike, thanks so much for being part of Transformative Principal today, and this was a, a fantastic conversation. 00:38:01.132 --> 00:38:01.492 Appreciate you.