Welcome to Transformative Principal, where I help you stop putting out fires and start leading.
I'm your host, Jethro Jones.
You can follow me on Twitter at Jethro Jones.
Okay.
Good morning and welcome to Transformative Principal.
Maybe it's not morning for you.
That's okay.
Okay.
Principal.
I'm your host, Jethro Jones.
Principal is a proud member of the BE Podcast Network, which is a great place to go for all your education focused podcasts.
Come here and we've got 50 shows or so on the podcast Network and you can go find something for your role and if, if there's something that's not for you.
Reach out to me and let's make something for you.
That would be awesome.
Uh, today I'm excited to
on the program.
He is the co-founder of Reset Teen Coaching, and he was previously the founder and executive director of Match Charter School, charter High School in Boston.
And his new book is called, I'll Do It Later, surviving School and Renewing the Love With Your Teenage Son.
So Mike, welcome, uh, thanks for being here today.
To be here.
What we need to open with, if I have this right, is that you're doing hundreds of burpees.
Is that, did I get that correct?
Like WI, I immediately read that and felt ashamed own lack of.
my physical exercise into a, you know, larger cause.
Could I, did, I don't even know if I'm allowed to ask a question, but I know about that.
Yeah.
for sure.
And uh, it's funny because I am really, really struggling with working out right now, and I did that for Lent earlier this year.
I've never done Lent before, so I did it for the first time and I wrote a book during that time called Latter Day Lent, uh, which you can, anybody who's interested can go check out.
And, um, it was my first experience doing it.
And what, and my.
Some of my Catholic friends said that you, you give something up or you give yourself a burden.
And so I gave a burden, which was to do a hundred burpees every day.
And so I did that during the whole time of lent and up getting, about 4,500, uh, burpees in during those, those 40 or so days.
And it was, it was good.
And what's so fascinating is that.
figured out the time to do it.
I figured out what I needed to, to do to make sure that I had it, and, and I did it.
And then, um, that ended and I did it for a few more days because I, I was in the habit.
And then, um, and then over the summer I just basically, uh, gave up on all my workouts and I don't know why, and I don't know what caused that.
But I have really been struggling for the last, uh, four months of actually doing anything.
physical.
And so just a couple weeks ago I said, all right, I'm gonna start walking again.
And so I go on walks each day and I try.
I tried and it worked for about a week to get 10,000 steps in before I ate breakfast.
Um, yeah, it's been a real struggle and uh, and I'm not doing it right now, but I've been thinking that I should.
So you might be the inspiration for me to get back on, back on track.
Well, first of all, I'm, I'm loving this because I feel like this story pretty organically connects to a lot of what we observe with teenagers struggling with executive function, right?
Like a very common story is you meet kids
You know, mom calls up, Hey, kiddo, can't get their homework done.
You talk to kiddo he's essentially like you described the, the burpees where, you know, it's like seven o'clock.
Good faith, like I wanna sit down and do my homework.
7 0 7. I haven't quite gotten started.
7 29. I'm starting to feel bad about this thing.
I've picked up my phone and this whole cycle has happened.
so I do think, like since so many of us struggle to do exercise, but if we are school leaders.
We've probably done pretty well academically.
Not everybody, and we've all have different paths, but there's a certain amount of achievement it takes.
I, I think those are good analogs because, you know, what's the conventional wisdom about kids who struggle with, you know, executive function I think maps pretty well to a lot of our personal journeys of going high and low on exercise and, finding it for a while, and then losing it again.
Yeah, and, and it's interesting because I know.
The right thing to do, and I know what I want to do deep down, and yet I sometimes cannot get my body and often cannot get my body to follow through on it.
Same with eating right.
And those kinds of things.
And you know, it just is is one of those things that, um, especially kids with A DHD is they, they probably know what they should be doing and just can't figure out how to make those things happen.
And sometimes it's a, it's a will issue where they, they want it deep down, but they certainly don't want it on the surface.
And something else is more enticing right now.
And other times it's a, they really want it and they literally cannot figure out how to make it come to pass.
Yeah, and I think we wrote this book, so our little book is called, I'll Do It Later.
It's a Breezy read.
Um, and we wanted to do case studies of actual teens where we kind of track this up and down behavior where you show 'em a strategy, you wonder if it'll work and it doesn't, and then you try strategy two.
That one doesn't, and then you try strategy three and it clicks.
Although you had no way of understanding why or predicting accurately that it would until four months later when it stops working and you kind of need to be back there.
I feel like of the things that Sean Garrity and I, the co-author and I, and as guys who spent a fair amount of time in schools ourselves, one of the things.
I would Provo provoke, I suppose on EF is I don't like how neatly the canon is organized, where people are like, all right, here's like the tier one binders and checklists and how to be more organized.
Here's the tier two internal processes around time sense and self-talk.
It's sort of like presented if there's this cannon of expertise, then we, educators are supposed to impart it to kids.
When you meet teens that are struggling with this, that story doesn't usually hold up.
In other words, if you really audit the interventionists, they're.
They're having a lot of failures along the way at the people they're supposed to be coaching and they're not really disclosing that.
And so I feel like part of this is like, can we all get honest and have more of a Sherlock Holmes curious puzzle mentality.
It sounds like you have that a little bit about yourself and exercise, but it's like, can, can even the educators that are supposed to be working on this more open the trial and error nature of this work with teams.
Yeah.
You know, that's something that's so fascinating to me because we act like we have all the right answers in education, but the reality is, is that we don't, for.
Of all and we're doing every single time is just trying our best to do something with, with what we've got in front of us.
And, and there is this perception, especially in schools, that is a one single right way to do things and that is the, the way that we should all do it.
And so, for example, paper planner system, I have tried.
Numerous times in my life to make that work.
the paper planner system does not work for me.
And what does work is a digital, organization thing, that I can see here are the things that I need to do next.
and even that I struggle with because I have.
I have this
Have this,
of what needs to be accomplished and then I do the things that are most important in the moment.
And, and I worry
I worry less about
you know, following this, this to-do list.
What really works is having the tools at my
tools.
to be able to do whatever I need to do at that time.
And that's a, an interesting thing is that
Thing is that
their own unique way of going about things.
And sure, there are some things that work for a lot of people.
But that doesn't mean that they're going to work for everybody all the time, and we need to recognize that and be okay with
everybody's okay with that?
try this different
try this to
be more focused
more focused.
the multitude of strategies rather than the one right way to do things.
I.
Yeah, Jethro, I a hundred percent co-sign on that.
And in fact, the way we organize this little book, 'cause I mean there must be 87,000 books about executive function.
So we're like, what's the marginal value of, of the 87,000?
And first, probably low, but the way we organized it is we took these four teens and we created five or six questions about each one.
So if you're reading it.
It's like, here's the interaction, here's a strategy.
We are about to try the, you know, reset coach is about to try it with this particular kid.
And as a reader, before you turn the page, what do you think happened?
And we do that format and I'll, I'll, I'll preview it as to say about half of these things work, half don't.
And no way anybody's ever, you know, been particularly accurate about guessing which ones worked and which ones didn't.
when we do it with like people inside of a school, what we're trying to teach is the humility that you're going to try different things for different kids.
have no professional way to guess how they will respond to different treatments.
It's kind of just a shot in the dark.
And if you can take that kind of curious approach, it helps you and the kid to not get discouraged.
So in your example of the, you know, getting organized, it's like, hey, like I've been trying to keep track in this notebook.
And then it's like, coach Mike says to young Jethro, okay, let's try this digital approach, but that doesn't work.
It's like, okay, let's not get freaked out.
We'll try this, we'll try that.
And you're sort of iterating with this.
Expectation of lots of sort of small failures along the way, which is not really the way it works.
If you believe clinically, like you pretty much know what's best and you're gonna be right 90% of the time.
Yeah, so, so talk a little bit about how, um, how A DHD is
One of the, one of the ways that people manage it is by giving medication or accommodations or whatever.
And, and sometimes those things work, but sometimes they, they actually do more harm than good and they don't help the kid in the way that we want them to.
And a lot of kids report feeling like they're not themselves.
And one of the things that I've.
That I've talked a lot about with kids with, with all kinds of disabilities, but certainly with A DHD, is you have to recognize that this is just a system that you have to get through and then you can live your life however you want
Yes, yes.
and, so that's not great advice, but it is.
It is the reality.
Like you, school is not designed for kids.
With a DHD and school's not designed for most kids, to be honest.
It's, it's definitely designed for the adults in the building to make life easy for them.
Um, but comes to to to kids with a DHD specifically, how, how do you frame that in a way that is like, there's a better way to do this and it's not just, you know, struggle through school and then you can live your life.
Yeah, so two great points there.
I, I'll hit the what you were just talking about and then let's return to this medication question.
So you meet a kid and the kid says, listen, mom's on my case.
I'm struggling in school.
not going well.
And I do think there is value in keeping it real.
And what you're saying that kind of tries to thread the needle is acknowledging that high school is likely to continue to be challenging for you.
It's to say if you do go to college, that will.
Probably be even worse 'cause there's less structure, although there's an upside if you can find, you know, subjects that you are deeply interested in.
Because then the A DHD doesn't apply.
A DHD is basically how we react all the things that feel like chores.
And you know, if you're suddenly fascinated with public policy and you're majoring in that, might find that, you know, you're able to get a lot more stuff done.
So college can cut both ways, but expect a grind there.
I think the way to thread the needle is instead of saying, I will be one more adult in your life who will hand you a bunch of strategies if it will cure your condition, it's to accept that it's chronic and instead say what I'm trying to accomplish.
we meet 30 minutes on Sunday, 30 minutes on Wednesday.
I'm just trying to unlock more independent hours of work by you.
It's like it's just gain over baseline.
So if you're reporting, you're basically doing five real hours of work week with a coach's help, can you do 12?
Can you do 15 in the same way, Jethro, like I love walking, so I have no trouble getting all my steps.
I love basketball, so I have no trouble.
Kind of like keeping up with the cardio.
I hate strength training, hate it.
Won't do it.
I pay Ashley like two miles away, go over to like my personal trainer and like I know how to do these lifts, but if I don't and what she's trying to do is unlock, you know, my overall, helping me with the things that I don't really want to do.
I think that like with coaching, can unlock more independent time from the kid, except that it's chronic and keep it real.
That high school might be a grind for you, make them better than they were before.
That's I think, where kids get excited and then their parents get pumped if they see the kid now starting to, let's say, reasonably flourish in school.
Yeah, so tell me more about this idea of A DHD only applies to things that feel like chores.
So I think there's a lot of layers to this and I don't know like how technical versus layperson, we should keep this, but I would say, and I think this will connect back to your.
Uh, previous question about medication, I feel like one of the best recent treatments of the larger, what is a DHD and how do we treatment is Paul Tuft's article from April.
Of this year, of 2025 in the New York Times Magazine, and that article basically says he's interviewing the leading lights in A DHD research in medication research, they're feverishly disagreeing about.
What is a DHD?
What is the role of medication?
Does it help long term?
Who does it help?
And all those kinds of things.
I feel like that's a really good sort of long magazine article treatment of some of these questions.
For now, I would just say a shorthand version that seems to work with many teens is they'll say.
I find a lot of this stuff that I'm supposed to do fairly boring.
If there happens to be a topic that I find interesting, I don't have these kind of motivation and follow through issues.
In other words, like I'm excited about my band and I don't find that I have the same degree of executive function challenges as it, you know, comes to showing up for practice and making the flyers and getting organized.
So.
While there is a domain of executive function that broadly applies, I think what seems to resonate the most with teens, if you're just sort of willing to stipulate, look, keeping up with, you know, math, english, science, history, some of those subjects you might find is, you know, uninteresting.
And as a result, your motivation to know what's expected.
To sit there and launch whatever your task is that night and to persist with it.
Those are all kind of compared to some of your classmates.
And so the question is how do we best work around that?
I.
Yeah, and what I appreciate about that approach is that it is freeing.
To the person that there's not something wrong with them, which is how all of these things get portrayed, but that they are different from the norm and that that is actually an okay thing.
And all of us are different from the norm.
And the norm is this conglomeration of things that, uh, that person who is the dorm doesn't exist because everybody's a variation from that.
So.
Um, so the, the thing that's really beneficial there is that it, it is valuable to see that you're not broken or, or a terrible human being, just that you're, you're not built in the way that this system was designed for, and, and that's okay.
And we can figure out a way to work through that.
And if we do that in an appropriate way, then I think that it's.
Very beneficial for everybody involved.
I did link to that, uh, that article.
Have we been thinking about a DHD All wrong.
Is that the one?
Excellent.
So I linked to that in the show notes at Transformative Principal dot org so people can go check it out and read it because, uh, that is definitely, I think a beneficial, thing to, to look at.
And I remember seeing that come out and I didn't read it then.
Uh, but I'm gonna read it now, so thank you.
Hey, uh, one thing I wonder about, I'm curious about with, with, you know.
Your work with school leaders, I'll tell you a conflict that I felt and feel, and I'm curious how you react to it.
So I think as a school leader, you know, most of us probably agree that one of the key attributes a kid needs to develop is a sense of grit and persistence
I, our message at Match Charter School was like, we'll do more than meet you halfway.
We will, you know, work around the clock.
If you put in the effort, we'll be right there, you know, sort of by your side.
We'll build close relationships with you to motivate you and so forth.
And some kids who had not in their prior schools, ever tried hard, responded well to that message.
It's kind of.
We care, we know you can do it, suck it up, work hard.
And, and they changed their behavior and that was really good.
And yet there was another cohort of kids that, in good faith, tried to react in that, but probably, you know, on the A DHD scale, were probably farther along and so they struggled.
Even in the face of like teachers who've built these really close relationships and all these kind of sort of school scaffolding.
And so it made me wonder like, what is our message to school leaders?
Which is pretty tricky.
Like, I don't wanna give up the upside of a school leader that manages to get the whole team rowing, to get the kids trying really hard.
By creating this big carve out of some type of exemptions for the kids who can't really grind out their homework, 7:00 PM 8:00 PM, 9:00 PM and so forth.
And yet I don't wanna give that up.
school effect.
But here I am working pretty closely and very sympathetic with a lot of teenagers that there's no version of the school within reason that's going to easily unlock them to independently be good at doing this kind of homework.
And I, I feel some kind of tension there.
And actually totally sure what my message is to a school leader.
'cause I think these are both trade offs.
Are you trying to accommodate the kids?
Are struggling in your system or are you trying to, you know, create a system that allows a lot of other kids to really find their grit for the first time and, and really perform for their teachers?
I.
Well, there are a couple, couple things that come off of this question in my mind.
Uh, number one.
Education is a responsibility of the family and the student and the school or the state or whatever steps in to support them in that.
So that's number one.
Instead of thinking that it's our responsibility as schools to teach students, we need
need to.
the reality of the situation, which is that it is family's responsibilities.
raise and teach students and we just support them in that.
So we need to take this position from, it's, all on us as the educators to, it's all on the parents, and they need help.
Let's go help them.
That number one, changes the frame and is number one, the appropriate thing.
And number two helps us see that we don't, we may not have to do as much as we originally thought.
The second thing along the lines of what, what you're talking about specifically in your question is that homework is unethical and it is inappropriate for a school to say to a family, this is how you should spend your time at home.
That's absolutely inappropriate.
And I made that very clear with my teachers and they knew if they ever had a problem, somebody arguing about homework.
They were not going to get support from me because I believe that it's unethical.
So like, I'm not gonna be on your side.
And that's all there is to it.
And, and that's good to know because then people understand, okay, I'm not gonna have a fight about this.
And we can, we can move that along.
And if, if we
We.
what we need to do in the time we have the kids at school, we're either asking, expecting to do too much or.
We're not using our time wisely in school and we know that we are not using our time wisely in school because there is so much wasted time.
So, so those are a couple pieces that those basic assumptions and beliefs, they're in place, this changes the whole dynamic of the conversation.
And so does a parent want their kid to learn grit and resilience?
Yes.
Every single one of them does.
No matter how.
Uninvolved, do you think that parent may be, they want their kid to learn that.
And so how do you partner with the parent instead of asking the parent to partner with you?
How do you partner with them to teach these things to them and to their kids?
That's what the, the key really comes down to.
And then the third thing that I'll say about that is that every single person's educational journey is unique.
if they are a twin and have been in the same classes as their twin the whole entire time, their individual educational journey is unique and we have to respect that and recognize that and appreciate that and, and lean into that, that they're going to have a different experience than the kids next to 'em in the same classroom.
And even if they heard the same exact things from their teachers, they're going to have different understandings of what's there.
And rather than thinking that that's a bad thing, we need to recognize that that is exactly how learning works, and that everybody's path is unique and different, and we have to accept that and lean into that and provide tools and supports recognizing that that's the case.
So those three core assumptions are, um.
Are are the main things.
response, one thing that you said, it's so interesting to hear the, you know.
Homework take and to connect that to parents.
I would say a typical mom, it's probably 90% moms who would call up reset team coaching and say, our kid has a DHD, we've tried this, that the other thing, it's not working.
Please help.
A very common way to help, I'm trying to connect the, the, the homework question to the parent question.
A lot of parents are getting tripped up because is assigning a lot of homework.
They have an LMS, you know, Google Classroom or Schoology or whatever, but it's really six free agent teachers, like the math teacher uses it differently than the science teacher, the English, and it actually takes them real detective work just to know what kiddo is supposed to do.
Like that's not easy.
And it's particularly difficult the context of that question between mom and teen, or in our case like teen's son, is a little bit antagonistic.
Like the kid's already like, oh, you're already on my case and now you're trying to figure out what I have tonight.
So the kid's not necessarily helping the kid, by the way, isn't necessarily that great at navigating this stuff.
Anyway, to your point of earlier about, you know, it's hard for.
People to find organization systems that work and school imposes the same system on everybody.
Teachers are using this differently.
They're basically hiding assignments in different spots.
And so a very easy win put up on the board that moms seem to like is obviously if you're an educator and you've been around the block and you know all these systems, you kind of know where to click and where to look.
I think a coach.
Can often find in five minutes what's due in something that might take a parent two hours and they're still gonna miss stuff
Well, and
oh, go ahead.
Yeah.
I I, I have four kids myself.
Uh, three of them are still in high school and middle school.
finding the things for them is a nightmare.
And despite teachers' best efforts, and I, I believe they're trying to do what's right and trying their best to do good work.
Uh, I don't know what's going on in my kids' classes.
And I am an educator.
I've been a principal and I know how to navigate the system, and I'm still confused.
Well, that's actually I think a piece of advice for school leaders to consider would be, you know, back when Jeff Bezos was starting Amazon famously, he would take shifts in customer service, deal with like the frustration of navigating his.
Company, his online company, and then he would call up people on his team and light 'em up, right?
Like, Hey, fix this.
You know, I'm just whatever.
I think school leaders, than some of these really elaborate efforts to try to help A DHD through this whole school embedding of like 27 different strategies.
I don't know.
It is just hard to get to the finish line on some of that stuff.
It's like very well intentioned.
I do think a school leader, if they just audit, say, all right, I'm gonna be, you know, Joe Smith, the kid, and I'm gonna log in and try to figure out what I have.
And just as a very routine thing, I'm gonna see how long does it take me the principal actually correctly know what is due tomorrow?
And then I'm gonna let.
All of the teachers know what it was today.
It took 23 minutes.
Yesterday, it took four.
Tomorrow it takes 77, and I still got it wrong.
I feel like that's a productive, where the, the CEO that Jeff Bezos, the school leader, stepped in.
has a particularly large positive effect for A DHD students and their parents, obviously, because organized kids.
They're just gonna know.
They're attuned to all the little clues.
And they noticed when the science teacher mentioned as class was being dismissed, blah, blah, blah.
They picked that up.
They're always good at that.
this group of kids, Jethro that we're talking about, even if they wanna sit down and get stuff done, they struggle with it and, and I think principals can make a dent there.
It seems plausible to me.
Yeah, for sure.
And those, those, those kinds of things.
You know, I, one of the other things that I talk about in my speeches is I ask participants who taught them how to use, uh, Amazon and, nobody says they went to a class and got a lesson on how to use Amazon.
And part of the issue, uh, and I have a a, a podcast about this with, uh, Damon Hargraves where we talk about school software.
Part of the issue is that school software is very complex to navigate and Amazon.
Like, they're literally taking your money and you figured out how to give them your money because they had something that you wanted to buy, and, and they made
it so easy
you don't even remember not knowing how to use Amazon.
You just know that it's there and it's saved and like you just go buy stuff and like somehow.
Millions of people have figured out how to do that without ever
taking
use Amazon class.
And maybe some people have made YouTube videos.
Sure.
But you also went and found the answer to that.
You know, you searched or you asked someone, or you figured it out on your own.
And that's part of the issue,
is that
to make
tools, that
and easy people to see what's
what's going on needs to be there.
and the
The fact that
uses it different is the same thing as
it rates,
Uh,
grades
completely made up because up their own way of assigning points and what it looks like and all that kind of stuff.
So it becomes this artificial thing that is very difficult for anybody
Need to navigate
but
especially difficult
certain people.
People with
ADHD with
other disabilities makes
makes it really difficult for
and, and figure out.
And very
very difficult to put.
Highly educated, very smart.
who don't understand the system and aren't in it every day, makes it difficult for them as well.
So, so there are a lot of, uh, challenges here for sure.
Um.
As we are, uh, just about out of time
Out time
this has been a, a great conversation
conversation
much more that we could have, uh, gotten to, but, but we didn't make
didn't make it.
So
may,
need to get back together.
My last question is, uh, is about leadership.
is
what is one
that a principal can do this week
week?
transformative leader like you?
Mike.
What a great question.
Is this a go-to question that you, you
Th
often use?
This is the, the key.
The key question and I'm stalling 'cause I'm like, oh, I wish I could come up with something
let me explain it So here's the thing, people listen to this podcast every week, thousands of people, and it's awesome.
Thank you all for listening and this is all a great discussion.
But then they really wanna know like, what, what do I need to
Yes.
What's my next step and, and I ask this question every single time because I want people to have an actionable thing that they can do after listening.
And this is episode almost like 6, 6 90 or something like that.
So we've been around for a long time and it's important to know.
What, what do I do?
So, so what's the next step?
So make it simple, make it make it sweet so somebody can say, yep, I did that.
And that's one step closer to being a Transformative Principal.
I think a Transformative Principal can consider that the hours of school, eight-ish to three-ish, whatever, don't really line up well with where A DHD kids get most stuck, which is Monday through Thursday from seven to 11 at night, and something to consider.
And I realize these can be very delicate conversations.
But your support staff may be trying to help kids at the wrong time, not the moment of inflection.
If you happen to have anybody on your team that would be willing zoom, help kids in the evening and possibly to trade off daytime hours, that could be a very powerful experiment because so many kids describe getting stuck after dinner up to the bedroom, intend to do some stuff, devices, it's gone.
And it's precisely what.
function coaches, like the, the ones we have at reset, that's when we meet, we meet Sundays and we meet when the kids, you know, are, are, are about to try to sit down and get their stuff done.
you know, maybe we'll leave it back.
Jethro, where you started and you talked about, for example, up with your steps if.
You know the action you should take is at the first moment this afternoon, right?
That you can walk around Spokane and just get the first 2000 steps, right?
Just get it started.
That's like a couple blocks, no big deal.
I think for kids, if their support person from a high school.
It could just help them get going.
That's often an unlock to start a positive spiral.
So that would be my, my takeaway.
Could you have that conversation?
If you're really ambitious as a Transformative Principal, model it.
See if you can grab a couple kids and for a week or two, be willing to help them on Zoom.
To get organized and do their stuff.
Tell your story.
Share your stories with the teachers.
They'll appreciate that you were in the trenches trying to help you know this particular kid, and you'll learn a lot doing it.
Yeah, man, Mike, I think that's a great idea and don't worry about all the union stuff, about working specific contract hours and.
start with some volunteers and, and try to figure something out and, and then you can work it into the bigger changes later.
But that's definitely a good idea.
And starting with yourself and saying, I'm gonna do homework help from seven to nine at night, like that, that may be a totally appropriate thing to do.
So Mike, how can people get in touch with you and learn more from what you're doing?
I think the easiest way is go to Reset Teen Coaching.
You'll see our website, but also our contact information.
Shoot me an email.
Couple things.
I'm happy to help with any school leader for free.
One is if our book could be helpful to you or some of your support team, we'll get that right out to you.
Second is we have some lists, some like.
How to coach kids who have executive function issues.
So you may have people on your team that are curious about it, they may be, or organically already trying to do it and they're just kind of winging it.
Maybe some of the stuff we have could be useful to some people on your team.
So feel free to shoot me an email.
I promise to write right back.
Yeah.
Very good.
Mike, thanks so much for being part of Transformative Principal today, and this was a, a fantastic conversation.
Appreciate you.