WEBVTT 00:00:00.220 --> 00:00:11.940 Jason Boyd: I really think if we, in literary studies, if we just completely ignore video games, we are missing out on a huge body of work that could really enrich our teaching and our research. 00:00:13.620 --> 00:00:18.629 Neil McPhedran: Welcome to Continuing Studies, a podcast for higher education podcasters to learn and get inspired. 00:00:18.800 --> 00:00:19.744 I'm Neil McPhedran. 00:00:20.065 --> 00:00:24.125 Founder of Podium Podcasts, an agency for higher education podcasters. 00:00:24.535 --> 00:00:29.395 Jennifer-Lee: And I'm Jennifer Lee, founder of Jpod Creations and Podcasting is Broadcasting. 00:00:29.405 --> 00:00:31.035 We want you to know you're not alone. 00:00:31.035 --> 00:00:36.044 In fact, there are many of you higher ed podcasters out there and we can all learn from each other. 00:00:36.064 --> 00:00:39.814 Please join our community at HigherEdPods.com. 00:00:40.405 --> 00:00:50.185 Neil McPhedran: Okay Jen, in this episode we speak with Jason Boyd and Patrick Dolan from the Playable Stories: Unarchived podcast. 00:00:50.965 --> 00:00:59.735 And this is a podcast from the Toronto Metropolitan University formerly known as Ryerson. 00:01:00.725 --> 00:01:02.725 This is a really interesting one actually. 00:01:02.725 --> 00:01:04.785 I say that about all of them but it is. 00:01:05.455 --> 00:01:10.615 Playable Stories Archive is a curated guide for teachers and researchers. 00:01:11.075 --> 00:01:20.810 Now this is primarily for those that are in literary studies, so quite a focused podcast audience that they're targeting here. 00:01:20.970 --> 00:01:48.085 Ultimately, this podcast and the program that Jason and Patrick are part of is a resource for teachers, post secondary and secondary teachers, who are interested in learning about and teaching story rich video games, digital games that can be included in their literary media and cultural studies courses. 00:01:48.745 --> 00:01:55.405 This is our second one we've done that has a video game focus, but really interesting. 00:01:55.524 --> 00:02:08.545 Although both these guys are interested in video games, obviously, coming out of literary studies, and it's really about these super immersive video games and how they teach about that and they've created this podcast out of it. 00:02:08.815 --> 00:02:11.035 Jennifer-Lee: Yeah, and I just love their passion for it. 00:02:11.035 --> 00:02:19.285 Jason admitted to us, he's very honest, that he didn't really fall in love with video games until later in life because he realized that there was more than just violent video games. 00:02:19.285 --> 00:02:23.810 There was different puzzle ones and things that we'll get into in a little bit when we talk to them. 00:02:24.100 --> 00:02:36.550 But that narrative and the storytelling was really rich and deep and, and there was a lot of like really cool things that they would never even think about that was encompassed in the world of video games. 00:02:36.550 --> 00:02:37.889 So I'm really excited to talk about this. 00:02:37.889 --> 00:02:50.510 The fact that it is a tool for teachers, like that's also another cool element because, you know, you always heard teachers back in the day being like, don't do video games, it'll rot your brain out. 00:02:50.529 --> 00:02:53.199 And so now that these are courses, I think this is cool. 00:02:53.210 --> 00:02:54.370 So, uh, let's get into it. 00:02:54.380 --> 00:02:54.690 Neil McPhedran: Let's do it. 00:02:56.040 --> 00:03:00.900 Well, why don't we just start with a quick introduction for each of you, Patrick, why don't you start? 00:03:01.450 --> 00:03:02.050 Patrick Dolan: Oh, sure. 00:03:02.090 --> 00:03:03.400 My name is Patrick R. 00:03:03.410 --> 00:03:03.840 Dolan. 00:03:03.870 --> 00:03:21.989 I am a PhD candidate in communications and culture at York slash Toronto Metropolitan University, studying games, pixel graphics, and sort of like affect emotion aesthetics and the politics therein, being supervised by Jason. 00:03:22.520 --> 00:03:23.860 Jason Boyd: My name's Jason Boyd. 00:03:23.860 --> 00:03:28.270 I'm an Associate Professor in the Department of English at Toronto Metropolitan University. 00:03:28.590 --> 00:03:36.689 I also direct the Stories in Play initiative, of which the Playable Stories Archive and Playable Stories Unarchived podcast are a part of. 00:03:36.880 --> 00:03:46.300 I'm interested in digital humanities and electronic literature and digital games, particularly narrative rich games. 00:03:46.610 --> 00:04:01.910 Jennifer-Lee: Probably a dumb question to ask, but did you guys play video games when you were growing up and what really sparked you to kind of head yourself to university to be involved in many of these different facets, I guess, of the game culture 00:04:01.910 --> 00:04:23.680 Jason Boyd: I wasn't a huge video game player when I was younger, but when I came to TMU, I ended up teaching a course called Narrative in a Digital Age, and I realized that it was, it was really important to teach video games when we were talking about narrative in a digital age, because so many games do really interesting things with telling stories. 00:04:24.060 --> 00:04:33.360 And so I really started ramping up my game, playing as as I, as much as I could because I wanted to find games to teach in that course. 00:04:33.360 --> 00:04:38.670 And so that was the sort of real impetus for, you know, getting involved in games and game studies. 00:04:38.880 --> 00:04:45.570 And also the fact that there were a number of doctoral students who were looking for supervisors who wanted to work in game studies. 00:04:45.720 --> 00:04:49.025 Patrick Dolan: Yeah, I've played games since I was like really young with my parents. 00:04:49.840 --> 00:04:56.670 Had a Pong machine that I loved, and then when I was younger, we got like a family NES Nintendo. 00:04:57.010 --> 00:05:04.140 And so like, I've been moving up, kind of like a generation behind until recently with video games, like playing on and off. 00:05:04.400 --> 00:05:09.370 I got into studying video games through studying movies. 00:05:09.440 --> 00:05:14.910 My master's was in collectors of like horror DVDs and VHS. 00:05:15.405 --> 00:05:18.335 I found Jenkins, Henry Jenkins, like, Aca-fan thing. 00:05:18.365 --> 00:05:21.145 I was like a fan of collecting horror videos. 00:05:21.365 --> 00:05:25.445 And I kind of moved towards collecting retro games and playing retro games. 00:05:25.894 --> 00:05:28.795 And my interest shifted towards game studies. 00:05:29.215 --> 00:05:32.385 And then that formed into sort of modern pixel graphics. 00:05:32.585 --> 00:05:35.395 Jennifer-Lee: And how did your parents feel about your degree choices? 00:05:37.115 --> 00:05:43.304 Patrick Dolan: Actually, my dad, I remember when I was getting my master's, he told me, and this was about horror movies. 00:05:43.765 --> 00:05:51.365 But he said, I can't believe that watching all those terrible movies has finally paid off. 00:05:52.425 --> 00:05:56.445 I mean, it hasn't paid, paid off, but I'm doing something with it. 00:05:56.775 --> 00:05:59.024 Jennifer-Lee: Well, it's funny because I have a theater degree. 00:05:59.065 --> 00:06:01.235 So I feel like my parents were like, what are you doing now? 00:06:01.265 --> 00:06:04.035 Now that I own a podcast company, they're like, oh, wow, we see it. 00:06:04.035 --> 00:06:07.065 But I think when I first told them, they were like, okay, good luck. 00:06:07.085 --> 00:06:09.295 Like, do we have to support you for the rest of your life? 00:06:09.345 --> 00:06:09.755 So. 00:06:10.315 --> 00:06:11.445 Great, great backstories. 00:06:12.815 --> 00:06:22.474 Neil McPhedran: And actually Jen, I think maybe plucked out that first question from our interview with Emma Vossen, who recommended the two of you guys. 00:06:22.485 --> 00:06:23.695 So thank you, Emma. 00:06:23.725 --> 00:06:32.610 But also she let us know that one of the things they like to do on their podcast is ask about the video games in their background to start with before they jump into it. 00:06:32.620 --> 00:06:36.020 So Jen, nice work there of applying what we learned from other podcasters. 00:06:36.020 --> 00:06:38.340 Jennifer-Lee: My video game experience isn't very great, guys. 00:06:38.340 --> 00:06:39.220 It's like Mario. 00:06:39.220 --> 00:06:40.330 It's like very basic. 00:06:42.000 --> 00:06:43.130 Patrick Dolan: Still valid. 00:06:44.310 --> 00:06:44.420 Jennifer-Lee: Duck Hunter? 00:06:44.940 --> 00:06:46.130 Do we remember that? 00:06:46.130 --> 00:06:46.480 Patrick Dolan: Oh yeah. 00:06:46.480 --> 00:06:47.020 Neil McPhedran: Duck Hunter. 00:06:47.190 --> 00:06:48.530 That was a good one. 00:06:48.570 --> 00:06:49.230 I love that one. 00:06:49.410 --> 00:06:58.830 Maybe we should start, before we jump into the podcast, maybe we can get our heads around the Playable Stories Archive initiative. 00:06:59.109 --> 00:07:06.390 So perhaps give us a little bit of insight into that and then we can jump to how the podcast lives within that initiative. 00:07:06.560 --> 00:07:07.050 Jason Boyd: Yeah, sure. 00:07:07.050 --> 00:07:23.310 So the inspiration for the Playable Stories Archive was basically realization that I had had that in literary studies, we weren't talking about video games, even though they are really interesting storytelling vehicles. 00:07:23.310 --> 00:07:26.100 And I really thought this was a problem, right? 00:07:26.140 --> 00:07:38.660 I really think if we in literary studies, if we just completely ignore video games, we are missing out on a huge body of work that could really enrich our teaching and our research. 00:07:38.900 --> 00:07:54.240 And I realized that one of the big stumbling blocks is that, you know, a lot of my peers and colleagues either don't have experience playing games or just don't know where to start in thinking about how would I include a game in my traditional literature course on X. 00:07:54.875 --> 00:08:06.335 So, the Playable Stories Archive was basically a way to help teachers realize how they could teach certain games in their courses. 00:08:06.335 --> 00:08:12.404 So it picks games that are appropriately scoped and that have an interesting literary connection. 00:08:12.650 --> 00:08:23.410 Provides a fairly comprehensive introduction to those games so that teachers can look through the entries, understand what the game is about, and then make a decision whether or not they could include it in a course. 00:08:23.520 --> 00:08:29.059 Jennifer-Lee: Yeah, I think there's such a stigma though around certain subjects especially when it comes to post secondary education. 00:08:29.290 --> 00:08:31.610 Like games, like theater, know it. 00:08:31.800 --> 00:08:35.840 People don't take these courses valid because they just think, oh, video games. 00:08:35.890 --> 00:08:42.070 That's what my kid did in the eighties and he rotted his brain out and then he's living on my couch and draining all my money, but that's not what it is. 00:08:42.090 --> 00:08:53.530 And now that I've gone on to move my career more into podcasting, I really realize that so many topics that you learn in university, the film courses, the theater courses, the gaming courses. 00:08:53.905 --> 00:09:04.175 There's a lot of really good core skills that you learn on that, especially for like critical thinking and people don't think about management later in life, being able to lead. 00:09:04.384 --> 00:09:10.805 And I think sometimes we pooh pooh these because they're not the traditional things like learning math and learning sciences. 00:09:10.815 --> 00:09:17.230 So I love the fact that you guys were able to open this up and be like, actually what we're doing is we're showcasing games. 00:09:17.280 --> 00:09:21.710 And something that Emma said too, and I noticed in their podcast was something I didn't really think about. 00:09:21.710 --> 00:09:28.230 They really look at the design of video games and that people are bringing more diversity and inclusion and emotion into the games. 00:09:28.270 --> 00:09:31.649 We're practicing what we're preaching through other mediums. 00:09:31.869 --> 00:09:32.600 Patrick Dolan: Yeah, definitely. 00:09:32.640 --> 00:09:38.330 I think also games, the stuff Games Institute are doing at Waterloo is fantastic. 00:09:38.580 --> 00:09:42.829 I think also there's definitely like a deemphasis of the importance of play. 00:09:43.325 --> 00:09:49.825 Just in life, it's just as, you know, important as everything else to life and well being. 00:09:49.865 --> 00:09:53.315 And so that's seen as frivolous, as like, less than. 00:09:53.325 --> 00:10:04.085 So when you're studying play, especially something that is kind of similar to how movies were seen as spectacles, it's really hard to get them taken seriously. 00:10:04.085 --> 00:10:21.024 And I think in academia, in certain areas of academia that I've encountered in my little like humanities, media studies bubble, that they're totally, you know, departments are like, ooh, let's get some game studies in, but I think general public, they're still seen as frivolous kind of kid's toys. 00:10:22.834 --> 00:10:25.255 Neil McPhedran: Which reality is it's a wrong way to think about it. 00:10:25.255 --> 00:10:30.145 The gaming industry is actually, outsizes massively the movie industry. 00:10:30.500 --> 00:10:36.800 It's probably bigger, I don't know this for a fact, but it's probably as big as the book industry if you've sort of looked at it as a whole. 00:10:36.800 --> 00:10:46.210 So, to put a lens of not as important on it is definitely a flawed approach when you sort of look at the size of the economy of the gaming industry, for sure. 00:10:46.250 --> 00:10:47.800 Yeah, really interesting stuff. 00:10:47.800 --> 00:10:51.189 So, let's jump to the podcast. 00:10:51.190 --> 00:10:55.180 How does a podcast play into the initiative? 00:10:55.490 --> 00:11:01.120 And maybe start with a little bit of a genesis of how you arrived at launching a podcast. 00:11:01.530 --> 00:11:10.070 Jason Boyd: I think the inspiration was, I think it was probably due to the first game we looked at in our first episode, which was The Witness, right? 00:11:10.110 --> 00:11:13.739 The Witness was a game where I'm like, oh, this is such an interesting game. 00:11:14.159 --> 00:11:17.060 It's such an interesting game to, to talk about. 00:11:17.150 --> 00:11:21.390 I could never, ever see including it in a course, right? 00:11:22.330 --> 00:11:25.750 And we talk about why that is, like, it's fairly long. 00:11:26.110 --> 00:11:28.290 It's fairly challenging. 00:11:28.360 --> 00:11:33.975 It's not entirely clear what the story is, or if there's a story. 00:11:34.045 --> 00:11:46.795 So there's all of these kind of vague aspects of the game, but it's still a really interesting game to talk about, to give context maybe to games that you might teach in a course. 00:11:46.795 --> 00:12:00.555 So the idea behind the podcast was like, look, there are all these games that are never going to make it into the Playable Stories Archive, that are highly unlikely that anyone would actually be able to teach in a course, but we still want to talk about them, right? 00:12:00.555 --> 00:12:04.235 Because they are doing something interesting in terms of story and narrative. 00:12:04.245 --> 00:12:06.314 So, so let's have a podcast. 00:12:06.315 --> 00:12:14.665 And it turns out, you know, there are just as many, if not more games that would be suitable for the Unarchived Podcast than there is for the Playable Stories Archive. 00:12:14.775 --> 00:12:25.010 Jennifer-Lee: For someone that doesn't have an amazing repertoire of knowledge of video games, can you just give us, just so I have a better idea and the audience, a little premise of The Witness. 00:12:25.290 --> 00:12:31.070 Is it more like shooting or is it more like really deep and storytelling? 00:12:31.170 --> 00:12:44.130 Jason Boyd: Yeah, so essentially it's a first person walking simulator where you're wandering around this very strange island and you have to solve all of the basically, line puzzles. 00:12:44.195 --> 00:12:56.954 And you stumble across things like these statues and these audio recordings that have these very deep philosophical quotations from people like Einstein and, and other sort of great thinkers, right? 00:12:57.374 --> 00:13:12.460 But it's just a kind of open exploration game, and you, as you work your way through it, part of the challenge is trying to figure out, what is actually going on in this island, and who am I, and why am I here, and what is the entire purpose of what I'm doing, right? 00:13:12.460 --> 00:13:20.040 So it becomes a very interesting philosophical exploration, I think, of essentially perception, how we perceive things, right? 00:13:20.040 --> 00:13:28.100 How we come to know things, how we come to understand things, and how, you know, various factors can change our perspective on what we see and what we know. 00:13:28.645 --> 00:13:29.495 Jennifer-Lee: That's deep. 00:13:29.525 --> 00:13:31.925 I didn't know video games got that deep. 00:13:32.235 --> 00:13:34.965 I thought it was just about shooting and getting to the next level. 00:13:34.965 --> 00:13:36.945 I definitely gonna have to re listen. 00:13:36.945 --> 00:13:40.164 Jason Boyd: No shooting, no falling, no dying. 00:13:41.165 --> 00:13:44.485 Jennifer-Lee: I kind of feel like this is a game that I'd rather play actually. 00:13:44.715 --> 00:13:50.655 You kind of mentioned it a little bit versus Unarchived and Archived because you were saying this one's Unarchived. 00:13:51.035 --> 00:13:52.995 Can you explain what you're, you're talking about there? 00:13:53.920 --> 00:14:04.329 Jason Boyd: The basic distinction there is, uh, the Playable Stories Archive contains, you know, written, fairly full entries describing, a game and how you could teach it in a course. 00:14:04.570 --> 00:14:12.750 And often provides things like walkthroughs and descriptions, so that, you know, an instructor or a student can quickly get up to speed on a game. 00:14:12.950 --> 00:14:18.439 And then the Unarchived podcasts are basically all those games that would not be suitable. 00:14:18.860 --> 00:14:22.000 for an entry in the Playable Stories Archive, right? 00:14:22.020 --> 00:14:31.640 So there are more games that you, you might want to talk about in a course, you might want to introduce your students to, but you never would actually ask them to play it as a requirement of the course. 00:14:31.890 --> 00:14:32.590 Neil McPhedran: I see, I see. 00:14:32.590 --> 00:14:38.140 So just for the audience benefit then, is this two separate feeds, or is this the same feed? 00:14:38.570 --> 00:14:42.145 That you're dropping the Unarchived or the Archived in? 00:14:42.195 --> 00:14:49.875 Jason Boyd: They're both hosted on StoriesInPlay.com and there's one area of that site that has the Playable Stories Archive with the entries. 00:14:50.025 --> 00:15:00.225 But then there's another, that's the Unarchived podcast that lists all the episodes, so they're clearly kind of reflecting each other, but the format is completely different. 00:15:00.225 --> 00:15:07.925 So entry, the Playable Stories Archive, written, visual, podcast, audio, people talking. 00:15:08.195 --> 00:15:08.525 Neil McPhedran: Got it. 00:15:08.945 --> 00:15:09.195 Got it. 00:15:09.195 --> 00:15:09.695 Okay, great. 00:15:09.725 --> 00:15:10.165 That's great. 00:15:10.535 --> 00:15:25.205 I think what's really interesting about your podcast is it's, and correct me if I've got this wrong, and from what I've listened and researched and what we've talked about, your audience is actually teachers. 00:15:25.215 --> 00:15:26.185 Is that correct? 00:15:26.195 --> 00:15:33.715 Or does it aperture a little bit wider to, it's also a resource for teachers to share with students as well? 00:15:34.035 --> 00:15:43.860 Patrick Dolan: I think our ideal audience is teachers, educators, and like, scholars, just people interested in learning about games and teaching about games. 00:15:44.270 --> 00:15:56.240 But I don't know, Jason, do we actually, I don't think we've done any kind of statistical survey or work on it, so we don't know for sure, but from the feedback we get, it seems mostly like people teaching in academia. 00:15:56.835 --> 00:16:04.795 Jason Boyd: Yeah, yeah, I think the idea was we wanted basically teachers to get over their anxieties about teaching games, right? 00:16:04.825 --> 00:16:09.415 Um, we wanted to say, okay, uh, you might not be, you know, uh, a hardcore gamer, right? 00:16:09.605 --> 00:16:12.485 But you can still teach these courses and we're going to help you. 00:16:12.485 --> 00:16:14.984 We're going to give you the resources to do that, right? 00:16:15.255 --> 00:16:18.245 But of course, it also, is advantageous. 00:16:18.870 --> 00:16:28.140 to also provide that information for students because, and I've had this happen, you know, students get stuck in a game and say, I can't, I can't get, I'm stuck in this game. 00:16:28.140 --> 00:16:28.940 I gotta finish it. 00:16:28.949 --> 00:16:29.800 How can I finish it? 00:16:29.800 --> 00:16:31.659 You'd say, well, just go to the entry. 00:16:31.659 --> 00:16:33.090 There's a walk through there. 00:16:33.340 --> 00:16:37.330 You know, I don't have to like sort of sit down beside you at the computer and walk you through it. 00:16:37.330 --> 00:16:38.790 You can just look at that resource. 00:16:38.800 --> 00:16:41.710 So it does have that sort of double benefit, right? 00:16:41.730 --> 00:16:57.905 My experience has been that it's wrong to assume that every student under 22 that you have in a class is born with a controller in their hands and can play any game without any problem. 00:16:57.905 --> 00:16:58.895 It's just not the case. 00:16:59.015 --> 00:17:00.695 Jennifer-Lee: People just playing games have it so easy. 00:17:00.695 --> 00:17:05.375 Remember back in the day when you couldn't get to the next level and that's it, you just couldn't get to the next level. 00:17:05.375 --> 00:17:08.045 You couldn't like go on the internet 'cause it didn't exist. 00:17:08.795 --> 00:17:10.385 Maybe you talked to your friend. 00:17:10.685 --> 00:17:12.175 Maybe you gave him a call. 00:17:12.175 --> 00:17:12.955 Jason Boyd: Exactly. 00:17:13.135 --> 00:17:14.425 Jennifer-Lee: Way easier. 00:17:14.825 --> 00:17:16.205 I feel like they're cheating in a way. 00:17:16.205 --> 00:17:18.505 You should have to like, get to the next level on your own. 00:17:18.515 --> 00:17:30.804 It's so unique because usually when Neil and I talk to people, especially specifically on this podcast, when it comes to continuing studies, a lot of their podcasts are for prospective students or for students that are currently taking classes. 00:17:30.815 --> 00:17:39.055 The fact that you guys are kind of doing a two prong approach where it's mainly to teachers, but it is also a benefit for the teachers to aid them in helping their students. 00:17:39.055 --> 00:17:41.140 I think that's really cool. 00:17:41.160 --> 00:17:49.640 You also have, which I like, and I don't think enough podcasts do this, but, uh, you do have a narrative approach on how you're telling the story, and you just kind of did it already. 00:17:49.640 --> 00:17:55.550 I kind of gave you a little test earlier when I was like, tell me about The Witness and you did an amazing narrative of that. 00:17:55.550 --> 00:17:56.879 I actually felt like I was there. 00:17:56.879 --> 00:18:01.570 So, um, why was it important for you guys to have this concept for your podcast? 00:18:01.585 --> 00:18:14.555 Patrick Dolan: I think probably, coming from it, from The Witness and then our most recent one, Book of Travels, which was like a special summer one, Jason really kind of set the outline for the podcast. 00:18:14.605 --> 00:18:22.185 And it, and really you're trying to hit, and maybe you could talk better of this, but trying to hit like all aspects of the game that you could want to teach. 00:18:22.185 --> 00:18:29.785 So like narrative, we have aesthetics, we have context, you know, production context, especially for Book of Travels. 00:18:30.015 --> 00:18:34.215 Probably we went into the most of the production context ever. 00:18:34.475 --> 00:18:41.135 I think we talk a bit about it, but in other podcasts we talk a lot more about the formal elements. 00:18:41.285 --> 00:18:51.475 Jason Boyd: Yeah, I think the podcast is great because I think it allows us to expand beyond the very pragmatic approach that the Playable Stories Archive has, right? 00:18:51.475 --> 00:18:58.035 Where you're kind of, get the information, put it in a nice sort of tidy format, and make it available. 00:18:58.265 --> 00:19:15.210 I think the podcast is often, you know, pulls the scope larger and talks about some of these other issues that are relevant to gaming, and so it provides a really good, I think, broader context that the entries of the Playable Stories Archive fit into, right? 00:19:15.390 --> 00:19:30.740 It helps, it helps teachers understand that, you know, games function within a very specific culture, within a very specific context, within a very specific economic system, and those things are important sometimes to draw in because they do affect things like the story. 00:19:30.880 --> 00:19:31.440 Neil McPhedran: That's great. 00:19:31.450 --> 00:19:39.875 Getting into the weeds a bit of, of the podcast itself, looks like we have a fairly large team that work on the podcast. 00:19:39.875 --> 00:19:47.885 And I would imagine this has to do somewhat with the fact that it's not an interview style podcast, like this one is where you're interviewing people. 00:19:47.885 --> 00:19:54.785 And there's a lot of work that would go into the resource side of it, but then also turning that resource into a podcast component. 00:19:54.795 --> 00:20:04.425 So maybe just sort of break down the team, if you will, that works with you both on the podcast and your roles and how you've brought other folks into this larger podcast team. 00:20:05.175 --> 00:20:14.660 Patrick Dolan: Well, I mean, Jason, I don't know if it's just like great people flock to Jason, or Jason has an eye for great people, but this is Jason's sort of, like, vision. 00:20:14.910 --> 00:20:29.420 He brought me in and he brought in just a team of people who are like, enthusiastic about games, enthusiastic about teaching games and enthusiastic about being on and participating in the podcast. 00:20:30.159 --> 00:20:33.000 I just want to name everybody's name out just so they can, 00:20:33.010 --> 00:20:33.539 Neil McPhedran: Please do. 00:20:33.559 --> 00:20:41.620 Patrick Dolan: So we have myself, Patrick, Jason, there's Alex, there's Chelsea, Jeremy, Kevin, Noah, and Taryn. 00:20:41.990 --> 00:20:52.170 And then in the upcoming episode, which will, I think it's on Myst, we're gonna have Tanya, who's a new addition that we're really excited about. 00:20:52.170 --> 00:20:52.919 Tanya's awesome. 00:20:53.480 --> 00:20:58.680 But for the roles, we split it into, I think we try and do three roles in each podcast. 00:20:58.680 --> 00:21:02.950 So we have the writer, we have the producer, and then we have sort of the panelists. 00:21:02.959 --> 00:21:09.775 So the writer would kind of like set the outline, write the script or set up prompts like questions. 00:21:10.045 --> 00:21:13.224 The producer is the person, we record through Discord. 00:21:13.745 --> 00:21:17.494 And I think Jeremy and I are the two editors. 00:21:17.715 --> 00:21:22.415 So we take turns producing and I think he uses Audacity. 00:21:22.415 --> 00:21:23.645 I use Audacity too. 00:21:24.105 --> 00:21:32.454 And yeah, everyone takes turns being a writer and a panelist and everybody has games they want to talk about and post about. 00:21:32.455 --> 00:21:33.635 So it's really great. 00:21:33.655 --> 00:21:36.359 Like we don't run out of things to do. 00:21:36.850 --> 00:21:51.639 Jason Boyd: I just wanted to add, basically, part of the impetus for the podcast was, I found I had all these great students, like, graduate students, and I said, you know what, let's, let's get together, let's do a podcast, right, since you're, since we're all doing game studies, why don't we, you know, do a podcast. 00:21:51.640 --> 00:21:58.815 And, and this has been really helpful because it enables me to work with my students in a way that I otherwise wouldn't be able to. 00:21:59.115 --> 00:22:05.774 And it's led to things like collaborative conference presentations and articles for collections and stuff like that. 00:22:05.774 --> 00:22:13.275 So this has been a great way to kind of incubate this teacher student collaboration that I've really found immensely rewarding. 00:22:13.365 --> 00:22:24.954 Neil McPhedran: I just think that that's really interesting that It's not just you decided to do a podcast as a channel to further the work you're doing with the initiative. 00:22:25.034 --> 00:22:30.484 And obviously there's a benefit for teachers and researchers on the other end who are your listening audience. 00:22:31.085 --> 00:22:39.875 But this is actually part of your process, Jason, in your role as, as a leader for these graduate students and whatnot. 00:22:39.904 --> 00:22:41.095 I really wanted to pause on that. 00:22:41.095 --> 00:22:45.224 I think that's a really interesting insight for our listening audience who are also in academia. 00:22:45.274 --> 00:22:51.845 Jason Boyd: I would say podcasts are a great entry point into collaborating with your students, right? 00:22:51.935 --> 00:22:57.045 If you're kind of worried about, you know, where to start this, this is one way that you can do that. 00:22:57.545 --> 00:23:06.105 Patrick Dolan: I wanted to add that at the communications and culture program, which many of us who do the podcast are in, is very spread out. 00:23:06.135 --> 00:23:07.145 It's very vast. 00:23:07.195 --> 00:23:09.875 It's held across two universities in Toronto. 00:23:10.185 --> 00:23:19.765 So finding a community, like us on the team are, you know, relatively close and it's nice to have sort of like a spot to meet and just kind of like chat about stuff too. 00:23:20.290 --> 00:23:21.810 Talk about games even too. 00:23:21.830 --> 00:23:24.180 Like, so that's, that's been really helpful as well. 00:23:24.280 --> 00:23:31.660 Jennifer-Lee: For people that are thinking about maybe recreating or copying you guys, as I like to call it, what are some things that you would recommend them not to do? 00:23:31.660 --> 00:23:34.149 Like, what are some learnings that you had? 00:23:34.149 --> 00:23:42.360 Because every time we do a podcast, I know everyone has a different things that pop up and they're like, oh, okay, I'll never do that again. 00:23:42.370 --> 00:23:44.210 Or I will do this in the future. 00:23:44.690 --> 00:23:54.255 Patrick Dolan: I think we didn't have this problem because we made the smart choice of releasing the podcast once a month and taking a summer break. 00:23:54.625 --> 00:24:01.015 But making a schedule that is sustainable, like starting at once a month, is such a great idea. 00:24:01.295 --> 00:24:05.315 Having two editors, I think even having three editors would be great. 00:24:05.574 --> 00:24:11.305 But having more than one editor because that, it's not necessarily like a bigger job than say being the host. 00:24:11.645 --> 00:24:13.795 But it is a more intimidating job. 00:24:14.355 --> 00:24:28.275 So depending on how often you want to do or what everybody's capacity is, making sure you have more than one person to fill different roles, especially with academia, where you have a bunch of other things that you're juggling at the same time. 00:24:28.555 --> 00:24:28.785 Jason Boyd: Yeah. 00:24:28.785 --> 00:24:41.000 And I think one of the things that has worked really well for us is, I think we're highly tolerant of different ways of approaching the creation of a podcast. 00:24:41.260 --> 00:24:47.980 I, I am very like, I want a full script, you know, um, ready before we start, right? 00:24:48.240 --> 00:24:53.330 Other people are like, oh, let's just have, you know, a bunch of sort of topics and we'll just kind of freewheel them, right? 00:24:53.380 --> 00:25:01.105 I'm willing to hand things over to other members of the team and let them do a podcast the way that they feel is appropriate. 00:25:01.425 --> 00:25:13.215 Like, I'm not on every podcast, so it really is a kind of collaborative teamwork that I think is accommodating of different ways of thinking about how to do a kind of scholarly podcast. 00:25:13.255 --> 00:25:20.615 And I think that kind of flexibility can be very helpful if you want a sustainable, collaborative project like this. 00:25:21.085 --> 00:25:21.625 Neil McPhedran: That's great. 00:25:21.765 --> 00:25:24.535 I want to go back to one thing, you record on Discord? 00:25:24.675 --> 00:25:25.315 Patrick Dolan: Yes. 00:25:25.655 --> 00:25:25.905 Neil McPhedran: Yeah. 00:25:25.905 --> 00:25:26.975 It's the cool kid platform. 00:25:26.975 --> 00:25:35.155 It's basically it's, for our audience out there, I mean, most of you probably know, but it's essentially Slack for gamers to put it bluntly. 00:25:35.754 --> 00:25:39.815 It's an incredible platform, but you actually record on Discord. 00:25:40.295 --> 00:25:40.735 Patrick Dolan: Yes. 00:25:40.735 --> 00:25:43.835 So we have, we have our own Discord for the podcast. 00:25:43.895 --> 00:25:45.635 And then we have like a voice channel. 00:25:45.875 --> 00:25:49.485 If you've ever been in a Discord, there can be like a voice chatting channel. 00:25:49.884 --> 00:26:09.380 And then we have a, I don't know if it's called like a bot or an app that is called Craig and it records your voice and then sends you a link to an option of audios like you can get it all at once in a mp3 file or get it in like an already an Audacity file format. 00:26:09.479 --> 00:26:16.180 And actually I learned to do that through Games Institute podcasting with First Person Scholar. 00:26:16.410 --> 00:26:17.300 That's how they did it. 00:26:17.410 --> 00:26:19.640 And so that's, you know, how I learned to do it. 00:26:20.080 --> 00:26:20.460 Neil McPhedran: Wow. 00:26:20.840 --> 00:26:23.780 Well, you're definitely the first podcast that we've talked to. 00:26:23.780 --> 00:26:30.340 I mean, maybe we just didn't ask the question and we didn't know this, but I think the first time we've come across this as a way to record, that's super interesting. 00:26:30.340 --> 00:26:35.520 Does it record, is it then recording each person locally? 00:26:35.590 --> 00:26:43.749 Like we're in SquadCast here, in SquadCast what it's doing is we get all the files after, um, it's recording locally. 00:26:43.759 --> 00:26:49.260 And then putting those local recordings for each of us into a cloud recording as separate channels. 00:26:49.260 --> 00:26:49.660 Is that? 00:26:49.750 --> 00:26:50.090 Patrick Dolan: Yes. 00:26:50.750 --> 00:26:51.470 Neil McPhedran: Okay, great. 00:26:51.520 --> 00:27:00.530 Patrick Dolan: Yeah, we get it as, how I use it, yeah, is that it comes in the Audacity file, I open up the Audacity file, everybody's voice is in a different channel. 00:27:01.050 --> 00:27:03.839 Yeah, it's so nice for like equalizing and, 00:27:04.039 --> 00:27:04.940 Neil McPhedran: That is really neat. 00:27:04.979 --> 00:27:10.650 I, I love all the just the different ways that, I've been doing podcasting for a little over four years now. 00:27:10.720 --> 00:27:12.060 Jen's been on it longer than I. 00:27:12.080 --> 00:27:24.305 But just even in the last two years the technology advances, outside of all the AI stuff, but just like what we just talked about, it's super fascinating and the different ways that people are approaching. 00:27:24.475 --> 00:27:35.114 Which is an old school medium from an internet perspective, podcasting that is, but there's this renaissance of more and more people coming to it and how people are approaching it. 00:27:35.125 --> 00:27:37.085 And I just love your way of approaching it. 00:27:37.085 --> 00:27:45.655 You just even, you have multiple hosts, uh, and different voices on every episode, which again is something that is not the norm. 00:27:45.665 --> 00:27:50.855 Most podcasts are the same person or the same two people as your regular host. 00:27:50.855 --> 00:27:54.035 So I really like the different approach you're taking. 00:27:54.415 --> 00:28:02.104 Patrick Dolan: Yeah, I like to imagine people listening have their favorite hosts and they're like always excited when they're on or, or like favorite guests. 00:28:02.364 --> 00:28:02.864 Neil McPhedran: There you go. 00:28:02.864 --> 00:28:07.165 You'll have to do a listener survey and find out who truly is the favorite. 00:28:07.165 --> 00:28:07.795 Patrick Dolan: I don't want to know though. 00:28:07.815 --> 00:28:08.585 Neil McPhedran: Maybe you don't want to know that. 00:28:08.585 --> 00:28:14.095 Jennifer-Lee: No, it's going to create a rift and then you guys are going to be like the Beatles or something that like split up. 00:28:14.435 --> 00:28:14.645 Patrick Dolan: Yeah. 00:28:15.135 --> 00:28:23.515 Neil McPhedran: And this great harmonious situation that Jason painted a couple of minutes ago is going to, you don't want that. 00:28:23.905 --> 00:28:24.924 Bad idea, Neil. 00:28:26.784 --> 00:28:27.145 That's wonderful. 00:28:27.205 --> 00:28:31.295 And then, and then once a month, I think is great, but back to your point, Patrick. 00:28:31.435 --> 00:28:35.905 And we like to say this too, like, what is achievable? 00:28:36.270 --> 00:28:37.580 And stick to that. 00:28:37.640 --> 00:28:38.810 Don't try to overreach. 00:28:38.810 --> 00:28:44.580 Like always recommend with new podcasts, we start with like once a week is really aggressive. 00:28:44.880 --> 00:28:48.830 So start with something that's achievable, but you have to stick to it. 00:28:48.880 --> 00:28:51.610 And also I just think it's audience expectation. 00:28:51.970 --> 00:28:57.770 One of my pet peeves is, I don't think there's a problem with taking a summer hiatus, especially in the academic world. 00:28:57.770 --> 00:28:59.500 I think that's a natural fit. 00:28:59.930 --> 00:29:03.165 But not telling the audience what's going on is to me the issue. 00:29:03.185 --> 00:29:05.655 It's like, let them know we're taking a break. 00:29:05.685 --> 00:29:14.644 Like you can put that in the show, you can put that in your show notes, but just giving the audience the expectation that there's an episode once a month, you're going to take a summer break. 00:29:14.935 --> 00:29:16.405 Everyone knows what's going on. 00:29:16.425 --> 00:29:17.145 Then that's great. 00:29:17.145 --> 00:29:21.005 It's this leaving people hanging like, uh oh, the podcast end? 00:29:21.535 --> 00:29:22.945 So yeah, that's great. 00:29:23.520 --> 00:29:26.130 Jennifer-Lee: Thank you guys so much for being on here. 00:29:26.130 --> 00:29:27.050 We really appreciate it. 00:29:27.330 --> 00:29:29.400 I feel like we've talked to you all day. 00:29:29.460 --> 00:29:31.410 You've actually changed my mind about games. 00:29:31.480 --> 00:29:33.370 I didn't realize there were non shooting games. 00:29:33.990 --> 00:29:34.770 So that's good. 00:29:36.410 --> 00:29:40.430 Patrick Dolan: Jason, you've said you specifically don't like games with violence or combat. 00:29:40.530 --> 00:29:46.270 Jason Boyd: Yeah, and and they're often very mechanically different to play and I'm thinking of accessibility, right? 00:29:46.270 --> 00:29:54.660 You know, I don't want to expect that my students can engage in this sort of very aggressive, very kind of, you know, complicated gameplay. 00:29:54.660 --> 00:30:01.110 So I'm always looking for games that are as widely accessible as possible to as many students as possible. 00:30:01.820 --> 00:30:02.080 Neil McPhedran: Great. 00:30:02.210 --> 00:30:04.340 And your podcast is available? 00:30:04.400 --> 00:30:10.340 We're going to drop the link into our show notes, obviously, but podcast is available across all listening apps I presume. 00:30:10.360 --> 00:30:13.940 Jason Boyd: Yeah, we're on, uh, SoundCloud and, 00:30:13.940 --> 00:30:18.490 Patrick Dolan: We recently got on Spotify, but I think, I think we're hosted elsewhere. 00:30:20.370 --> 00:30:25.522 That's another team member that got us on Spotify and elsewhere. 00:30:25.772 --> 00:30:25.982 Jason Boyd: Yeah. 00:30:26.102 --> 00:30:29.210 And there are links to the Spotify and to the SoundCloud channel. 00:30:29.220 --> 00:30:31.979 So you can go to either of those, your preference. 00:30:32.010 --> 00:30:35.560 Neil McPhedran: Well, we'll be sure to drop those into our show notes, but yeah. 00:30:35.560 --> 00:30:36.850 Thanks for joining us today. 00:30:36.890 --> 00:30:41.730 And it was really, really interesting to hear about your podcast and your podcast journey. 00:30:41.730 --> 00:30:42.440 So thank you so much. 00:30:42.630 --> 00:30:43.860 Patrick Dolan: It was so nice meeting you guys. 00:30:43.860 --> 00:30:51.989 Jennifer-Lee: You know, I'm starting to love video games after a few of these episodes we've been doing. 00:30:52.379 --> 00:31:00.304 I was just like a Mario and a Sonic person, but now I really kind of want to go to these schools and study these interesting courses. 00:31:00.314 --> 00:31:08.604 And the neat thing about this podcast, which is a bit different than the one that we did with Emma Vossen, is this is actually for teachers. 00:31:08.864 --> 00:31:22.014 And that they are helping teachers teach this curriculum that's, you know, still kind of new, in a fun, engaging way and helping the students and the teacher understand the purpose of it. 00:31:22.014 --> 00:31:23.724 So, I think that's really neat. 00:31:23.914 --> 00:31:24.324 Neil McPhedran: Yeah. 00:31:24.554 --> 00:31:38.244 It's interesting in our journey of talking to higher education podcasters about how different and focused on different niches podcasts can be within this space. 00:31:38.254 --> 00:31:46.924 So we've talked to podcasters that have created resources for students so that go along with their podcasts textbook. 00:31:46.924 --> 00:31:49.754 Or podcasts that for alumni. 00:31:49.754 --> 00:31:55.154 And then this one is for other teachers, whether that's post secondary or secondary. 00:31:55.564 --> 00:32:17.864 And how they're using the medium of podcasting in a really interesting way for, well, in this case, super dense subject matter, both these long form video games that are quite a dense journey, and then they're creating these resources for teaching. 00:32:17.864 --> 00:32:21.424 And then the podcast is a key component of those resources. 00:32:21.434 --> 00:32:35.894 So really, really interesting as we move along on our journey of interviewing higher education podcasters, we continue to be surprised and delighted by the different ways people are using this fantastic podcasting medium. 00:32:35.894 --> 00:32:36.154 So. 00:32:36.729 --> 00:32:49.039 Excited to keep going, Jen, and, uh, keep interviewing exciting things that are happening in the higher education podcasting space, but why don't we call it, uh, for this episode and why don't you read us out? 00:32:49.379 --> 00:32:54.269 Jennifer-Lee: Thank you for tuning into the Continuing Studies Podcast, a podcast for higher education podcasters. 00:32:54.599 --> 00:32:57.469 We hope you found this episode informative and inspiring. 00:32:57.519 --> 00:33:04.029 If you enjoyed the show, we encourage you to follow and subscribe to our podcast on your preferred platform, so you never miss an episode. 00:33:04.359 --> 00:33:13.369 But if you found this episode particularly valuable, please consider sharing it with your friends and colleagues who also might be interested in higher education podcasts. 00:33:13.759 --> 00:33:23.939 We also invite you to join your peers on HigherEdPods.com where you can connect with other podcasters in higher education and learn from others in the fields. 00:33:24.009 --> 00:33:26.069 Thank you for being part of our community. 00:33:26.339 --> 00:33:32.629 We look forward to continuing to bring you valuable insights and conversations around a higher education podcast. 00:33:32.819 --> 00:33:34.089 See you in the next episode.