WEBVTT NOTE This file was generated by Descript 00:00:12.070 --> 00:00:18.130 Welcome to Transformative Principal, where I help you stop putting out fires and start leading. 00:00:18.640 --> 00:00:20.140 I'm your host, Jethro Jones. 00:00:20.140 --> 00:00:22.840 You can follow me on Twitter at Jethro Jones. 00:00:22.840 --> 00:00:22.900 Okay. 00:00:35.791 --> 00:00:38.161 Welcome everybody to Transformative Principal. 00:00:38.161 --> 00:00:39.781 I'm your host, Jethro Jones. 00:00:39.781 --> 00:00:42.211 You can find me on all the social networks at Jethro Jones. 00:00:42.631 --> 00:00:51.601 Today we're doing one of the fun things that I like to do, which is have somebody come on and interview me about what's going on in my life and what I'm doing. 00:00:51.601 --> 00:01:00.271 And so I'm excited to have Mike Caldwell on the show today, and he was just barely on the podcast talking about Link to leaders. 00:01:00.601 --> 00:01:03.421 And so he is here and he's going to be interviewing me. 00:01:03.601 --> 00:01:05.281 So Mike, welcome. 00:01:05.491 --> 00:01:06.241 Thank you. 00:01:06.631 --> 00:01:08.461 I will turn it over to you. 00:01:08.641 --> 00:01:09.271 Let's go. 00:01:09.610 --> 00:01:10.420 Let's do it. 00:01:10.510 --> 00:01:11.110 Awesome. 00:01:11.230 --> 00:01:12.520 Uh, well, I'm excited about this. 00:01:12.520 --> 00:01:23.560 When I sh brought this to you, I don't know, a month or so ago, we, we've been talking about it and, uh, I was excited to do this and, uh, I was glad you said yes, and I know it's not a new thing for you. 00:01:23.980 --> 00:01:40.060 Um, and I've done my own podcast in a very small way, and so it's not completely foreign to me, but a little bit intimidating yet the, the Transformative Principal Podcast has been going a long time and, and you're the guru of podcasting. 00:01:40.060 --> 00:01:40.450 So, um. 00:01:42.820 --> 00:01:43.750 Let's just start there. 00:01:43.780 --> 00:01:46.660 Let's, let's talk about your journey as a podcaster. 00:01:46.660 --> 00:01:52.270 There's so many different layers of Jethro to of, of that, but I think that's, let's start there. 00:01:52.270 --> 00:01:53.410 That's how we met. 00:01:53.440 --> 00:01:53.860 I guess. 00:01:53.860 --> 00:02:01.990 You were somebody, somebody, you know, a mutual friend Craig Randall introduced us and a little over a year ago, I think sometime in November of last year. 00:02:01.990 --> 00:02:04.960 And so I've got to know you really, you know, just over the last year. 00:02:05.050 --> 00:02:08.050 Um, but your podcasting guru, let's talk about your journey. 00:02:09.531 --> 00:02:14.736 Yeah, I mean, uh, if people have been around for a long time, they, they know this. 00:02:14.736 --> 00:02:23.106 But I started as an assistant principal in a district where I was not getting the training that I wanted, um, to be a better 00:02:23.420 --> 00:02:23.840 System. 00:02:24.216 --> 00:02:27.936 And I, I wanted to be a principal that really. 00:02:28.776 --> 00:02:30.936 a difference and made big changes. 00:02:30.996 --> 00:02:34.356 And so, my district wasn't doing that. 00:02:34.386 --> 00:02:36.246 I didn't feel like they were doing an adequate job. 00:02:36.246 --> 00:02:43.056 So I said, I am gonna go interview other people and, and then I'm just gonna share their stories. 00:02:43.356 --> 00:02:48.006 And this is literally how I've used the podcast for the whole entire time. 00:02:48.276 --> 00:02:56.316 I have a problem and I go find somebody who is smarter than me or has done it, and I get their answer to whatever that problem is. 00:02:56.316 --> 00:03:03.966 And so if you go listen to every episode that I've done, brought the problems that I've currently been facing and ask them how to solve them. 00:03:04.296 --> 00:03:05.646 And I don't set it up like that. 00:03:05.646 --> 00:03:07.686 I'm not like, Hey, here's the problem I'm facing. 00:03:07.686 --> 00:03:11.076 I have this teacher who's doing this thing or this student who's doing this thing. 00:03:11.676 --> 00:03:13.926 I just found people who could answer my questions. 00:03:13.926 --> 00:03:21.696 And then I asked them they would do, how they would solve these problems, and, and then they shared it. 00:03:21.756 --> 00:03:24.186 And so I called this learning and dog years. 00:03:25.171 --> 00:03:27.541 For the last, uh, 13 years. 00:03:27.871 --> 00:03:37.441 Um, not missing a week, recording something every single week or publishing something every, every single week I should say, because I do batch it and take some breaks occasionally throughout the year. 00:03:37.861 --> 00:03:49.621 But this has just been so incredibly awesome to have access to people that I wouldn't typically have access to, to have conversations with people that I wouldn't typically have conversations with. 00:03:49.981 --> 00:04:01.291 And to not only talk to big time amazing people, but also talk to, uh, less well-known people who are just doing awesome work in schools. 00:04:01.291 --> 00:04:11.191 And that is, is probably one of the best things that I've been able to do, is find people who are doing something really cool and share their story and have them help me solve my problems. 00:04:11.521 --> 00:04:13.561 Uh, it's just, it's been awesome. 00:04:14.875 --> 00:04:26.980 I imagine when you started, you didn't, well, I don't know, maybe you did, but did you envision doing it for this long and this consistent or did you just start and this is where you are? 00:04:27.760 --> 00:04:27.820 Um. 00:04:27.871 --> 00:04:42.601 No, as, as a matter of fact, I was so nervous in the beginning that I wouldn't get multiple people on the show, that I did my first few interviews and I split the interviews in half, so I'd have enough content to still release stuff. 00:04:42.606 --> 00:04:51.151 And so it's mind boggling to me now that I am turning away more people than I am seeking at this point. 00:04:51.211 --> 00:04:56.521 Uh, which is totally fascinating to me because, um, I probably get. 00:04:57.421 --> 00:05:00.601 20 to 30 emails a week saying, I want to be on your show. 00:05:00.961 --> 00:05:15.211 And I just, I reject almost all of them because, uh, again, I'm looking for solutions to the problems that I'm facing, not looking for people who can solve, uh, problems that I'm not facing, you know? 00:05:15.301 --> 00:05:17.851 And so I've been very selfish in that regard. 00:05:17.971 --> 00:05:37.741 Um, but it's paid off because people listen to the show and have, and there are people who, is literally someone listening to this right now, Mike, this is crazy, who has listened to almost every single episode that I've released and waits for it to come out and has never talked to me or interacted with me in any other way. 00:05:37.921 --> 00:05:41.071 And they probably feel like they know me better than I know myself. 00:05:41.071 --> 00:05:41.761 And they might. 00:05:42.871 --> 00:05:47.821 if that is you and you're listening, you haven't reached out, you should just reach out and say hi, because I'd love to chat with you. 00:05:48.525 --> 00:05:48.825 Yeah. 00:05:49.095 --> 00:05:49.545 Yeah. 00:05:49.935 --> 00:05:50.715 That's crazy. 00:05:51.285 --> 00:05:54.315 Um, and that's probably kept, kept things fresh too. 00:05:54.315 --> 00:06:21.855 If you're, if you're coming to it like, hey, it's another weekly conversation, um, to talk about, you know, what's on my mind in terms of current challenge and you're, you're reaching out to, you know, you're, you're, you've lined up somebody that you feel can kinda lean into that, that's probably kept it fresh as opposed to say, thinking about it in a way that, well, I have to do this because, you know, it's, I'm trying to make a business out of it, or I'm trying to use it for marketing or whatever else. 00:06:21.855 --> 00:06:29.565 It's like, you're using it, I wanna say for selfish reasons, but that's, that's, you know, tongue in cheek. 00:06:29.625 --> 00:06:31.605 Um, but that's probably kept it fresh. 00:06:31.635 --> 00:06:32.835 And because it's personal. 00:06:34.036 --> 00:06:37.401 It's, it's kept it fresh, but it's also kept it relevant. 00:06:37.461 --> 00:06:52.611 And even as I left being a principal and still continue to do the podcast for the last five years, um, I haven't been in a school for five years as a leader, but I've been coaching principals and I ask questions that will help me solve their problems too. 00:06:52.761 --> 00:06:56.601 And so, uh, that has been really beneficial also. 00:06:56.601 --> 00:06:59.571 So I'm very grateful for that opportunity too. 00:06:59.931 --> 00:07:02.271 Um, it, also. 00:07:03.076 --> 00:07:08.851 A a lot of people come to me now and ask about starting a podcast and they want to use it to grow their business. 00:07:09.001 --> 00:07:12.151 And I always tell them that you can do that. 00:07:12.151 --> 00:07:29.911 And I certainly have because I'm full-time not working, uh, in a school because I started this podcast in 2013, it took seven full years of producing content every single week to get to the point where I could leave the school and feel comfortable about that. 00:07:30.391 --> 00:07:33.451 And to be honest, I probably could have done it sooner. 00:07:33.661 --> 00:07:35.911 Um, but I, I wasn't quite ready yet. 00:07:36.211 --> 00:07:41.191 And I, and I know that my, my skills and income level were not there yet either. 00:07:41.521 --> 00:07:46.111 So I, when people ask about that, like what's the return on investment for this? 00:07:46.411 --> 00:07:58.771 Um, it's really hard to quantify because it's not like the podcast itself has led to all of this business, but the business would not have existed without the podcast. 00:07:58.771 --> 00:07:59.581 Does that make sense? 00:07:59.815 --> 00:08:00.085 Yeah. 00:08:00.295 --> 00:08:00.625 Yeah. 00:08:01.435 --> 00:08:02.065 Totally does. 00:08:03.295 --> 00:08:12.325 So a couple more questions just, you know, I'm just curious about, if you think back the last, um, 12 years, did I get my math right? 00:08:12.415 --> 00:08:13.675 You started in 2013? 00:08:14.041 --> 00:08:14.851 yep, that's right. 00:08:15.241 --> 00:08:18.901 In fact, 12 years ago, right around December. 00:08:18.961 --> 00:08:27.211 So it, uh, that's, that's the other amazing thing is it, it, I started it in December and, and there's a whole other story there. 00:08:27.211 --> 00:08:31.771 I won't go into all of it, but just, there's never a right time to do it. 00:08:32.041 --> 00:08:32.671 Just do it. 00:08:33.091 --> 00:08:37.681 Like December was a really bad time to start a podcast because everybody's going on break. 00:08:37.681 --> 00:08:41.701 Nobody's thinking about this kind of stuff, but I was like, I'm just gonna do it. 00:08:41.731 --> 00:08:43.411 And, there you go. 00:08:43.411 --> 00:08:44.161 You just do it. 00:08:44.161 --> 00:08:47.161 And that, that's what really matters, is just take an action. 00:08:47.470 --> 00:08:48.085 Just do it. 00:08:48.145 --> 00:08:51.055 That's a, that's catchy, that's a catchy, uh, slogan. 00:08:51.055 --> 00:08:53.995 There's some, some, some companies should pick that up. 00:08:54.025 --> 00:08:54.565 I like it. 00:08:55.135 --> 00:08:55.945 Just do it. 00:08:56.605 --> 00:09:00.535 Um, that would be, maybe they could sell shoes or something. 00:09:00.535 --> 00:09:00.985 I don't know. 00:09:01.285 --> 00:09:04.045 Um, where was I going? 00:09:04.045 --> 00:09:05.185 I got distracted on that. 00:09:05.245 --> 00:09:05.605 Uh. 00:09:05.746 --> 00:09:06.196 I am sorry. 00:09:06.196 --> 00:09:07.816 You could probably sell anything with just Do it. 00:09:08.920 --> 00:09:10.390 There, there's a lot of opportunity there. 00:09:10.750 --> 00:09:20.800 Um, if you think back the last 12 years, is there particular guests that like, or, or conversation that, and that's a tough one, I would imagine, but that really sticks out. 00:09:20.800 --> 00:09:24.610 And you don't have to include my recent podcast on Link leaders. 00:09:24.610 --> 00:09:29.260 I, I'm gonna assume that that's one of the top, so you can just skip that one, but. 00:09:30.646 --> 00:09:35.686 Saving the best for last for, you know, 12 years and one of my latest ones is the best one. 00:09:36.136 --> 00:09:47.026 Um, the cool thing is, is that every time I finish a podcast, uh, I'll, I'll finish, go get a drink, go to the bathroom, all that stuff, and I'll see my wife and I'll be like, man, that was such a good interview. 00:09:47.176 --> 00:09:47.956 That was awesome. 00:09:48.316 --> 00:09:52.576 And that is literally still the case, which is just amazing. 00:09:52.696 --> 00:09:53.206 And. 00:09:54.526 --> 00:10:01.756 And on that note, the things that I think I'm gonna get out of a podcast episode are not always the things that I actually get. 00:10:01.816 --> 00:10:06.406 Like, there's so much more that I'm like, oh, that really resonates with me. 00:10:06.406 --> 00:10:10.066 So, um, it, I looked at my podcast feed this morning. 00:10:10.066 --> 00:10:15.526 There are 827, uh, items in my podcast feed. 00:10:15.976 --> 00:10:25.816 Uh, there are about 700 actual episodes, but then I would do some, some specials, some some off week things and, and whatever, and a few short ones in there. 00:10:26.086 --> 00:10:33.766 So I have over 800 things that I've produced on this podcast feed, which is, which is quite a lot when you think about it. 00:10:33.766 --> 00:10:38.596 And to be honest, it's impossible to even remember that many people. 00:10:38.806 --> 00:10:51.406 And what I really wish is that I had a. Still had a personal connection with each one of those people, even though I feel like I probably could reach out to any of 'em and, and get some, some conversation with them. 00:10:51.406 --> 00:11:02.086 But there are a few that have really made an impact and so I won't go through everything, but, uh, I'll try to talk in themes. 00:11:02.446 --> 00:11:03.316 Uh, so there was. 00:11:04.776 --> 00:11:08.976 with, uh, my assistant principal Dam Hargraves, who I've, whom I've had on a lot of times. 00:11:10.176 --> 00:11:15.756 he, he was like the best coworker I've ever had, and I just love him to death. 00:11:15.756 --> 00:11:23.886 He is such a stellar human being and I'm so grateful that I got to work with him when he really should have been the principal at the school that I became the principal of. 00:11:24.246 --> 00:11:29.616 Um, and he is just a humble, amazing guy that, uh, that I just think the world of. 00:11:30.006 --> 00:11:40.566 But when we did an episode, episode, I believe it was 100, um, we talked about RTI in our school and what we were doing, and I just remember that was so much fun. 00:11:40.566 --> 00:11:51.546 And that is probably the episode I send to people most often because we were doing some really amazing things and we described it really well and I attribute that to him being so awesome. 00:11:53.706 --> 00:11:56.496 another one that was really amazing was around that time was, 00:11:57.000 --> 00:11:58.740 I wanna jump in there, but that's really cool. 00:11:58.740 --> 00:12:05.370 So right now you have one episode, 100 in your, in your catalog of past to episodes. 00:12:05.580 --> 00:12:07.410 So if somebody's right now going. 00:12:08.350 --> 00:12:12.700 I'm kind of trying to figure out our RRTI model and I'm struggling with that. 00:12:13.240 --> 00:12:13.720 Boom. 00:12:13.720 --> 00:12:18.880 There is some content right now that's available to them that they can go and listen and 00:12:19.716 --> 00:12:20.006 Yeah. 00:12:20.110 --> 00:12:20.545 probably glean from. 00:12:21.451 --> 00:12:21.811 Yes. 00:12:21.841 --> 00:12:29.041 And, and that's the amazing thing is that, uh, part of what I've tried to do is make all of my interviews evergreen. 00:12:29.101 --> 00:12:34.411 So I'm not like, here's what you should do this fall, because times are gonna change. 00:12:34.471 --> 00:12:41.281 Of course, during COVID, I did a bunch of episodes around stuff about COVID, uh, which would've been crazy to not do that. 00:12:41.521 --> 00:12:48.331 But almost all my other content is really focused on, any, any time period. 00:12:48.481 --> 00:12:50.971 It is not just right. 00:12:50.971 --> 00:12:53.641 Then it's relevant to anything, which, which I think is really, uh. 00:12:54.316 --> 00:12:58.816 I, I'm so grateful I made that decision early on to not be focused on the here and now. 00:12:59.116 --> 00:13:07.846 Even though my problems were always focused on what I was struggling with, then I tried to ask it in such a way that it wasn't like, uh, you know, how do I do this back to school thing? 00:13:08.236 --> 00:13:14.026 Um, how do, but how do I make teachers feel welcome in a culture in a school, and what does that look like? 00:13:14.326 --> 00:13:15.916 And that, that's been really valuable. 00:13:15.916 --> 00:13:20.596 So the interview with Damon, that one i, I send out all the time. 00:13:20.956 --> 00:13:39.976 Um, another one that was really great was the interview with Seth Godin, and that one was awesome because Seth, I've admired for a long time, and I, I will never forget talking to him on the phone about the podcast interview where I emailed him outta the blue and said, Hey, here's what. 00:13:40.426 --> 00:13:42.886 I I'm doing, would you be interested in coming on the show? 00:13:42.976 --> 00:13:46.756 And he said, this sounds like a conversation that's better suited for a phone call. 00:13:46.906 --> 00:13:48.406 Here's my phone number, gimme a call. 00:13:48.646 --> 00:13:54.046 So I call him thinking I'm gonna get an assistant 'cause this guy's big time, or at least that's what it seemed like. 00:13:54.376 --> 00:13:57.826 And he answers the phone and he is like, Hey, this is Seth. 00:13:57.826 --> 00:13:58.756 And I was like, what? 00:13:59.206 --> 00:14:01.426 This is, uh, uh, as I stammer. 00:14:01.876 --> 00:14:12.736 But what was so powerful about that is that it taught me that I didn't have to, I, I could reach out to anybody and doesn't mean they'll say yes, but I don't have to be afraid about reaching out to people. 00:14:12.766 --> 00:14:13.786 And that was really powerful. 00:14:13.786 --> 00:14:15.886 And then our conversation was awesome. 00:14:15.976 --> 00:14:21.406 And, uh, and he was such a generous person with his time and his thoughts and the things he said. 00:14:21.406 --> 00:14:22.756 It was, it was just great. 00:14:23.926 --> 00:14:29.476 Um, and then, the third one that I'll mention is the one about data dashboards. 00:14:29.716 --> 00:14:32.776 Uh, with, with Rick Myers, I believe is his last name. 00:14:33.361 --> 00:14:46.741 Sorry, Rick, uh, um, he, we talked about data dashboards and he shared what he's doing and I was just blown away with how cool it is, what he's doing and how, how complex his system is. 00:14:46.801 --> 00:14:51.901 And yet he makes it so simple for his teachers, which is, which is awesome. 00:14:51.901 --> 00:14:56.251 So he's got all the data in these Google sheets and he's just pulling everything together. 00:14:56.581 --> 00:15:04.141 That one, I made a, uh, a video of it as well so people could see it and see his screen share, uh, share and everything. 00:15:04.141 --> 00:15:11.191 That one was, was really fun and I loved getting really deep and nerdy into his processes and systems and all that kind of stuff. 00:15:11.191 --> 00:15:13.051 'cause it was, it was awesome. 00:15:13.171 --> 00:15:19.111 So there's three out of 829, uh, and there's a ton more that are really great. 00:15:19.460 --> 00:15:19.850 Yeah. 00:15:20.720 --> 00:15:31.340 I wanna go back to something, something you said, you know, when you, you talked about kinda walking away going, uh, that was just, you know, one of our best ones or great conversation or whatever else. 00:15:31.910 --> 00:15:46.160 Um, as, as you know, you know, I did a, a one year podcast, um, you know, with, with a friend of mine, you know, uh, related to grief after, after losing my son and we just focused on kind of this series of conversation. 00:15:46.160 --> 00:15:50.300 It was just a conversation with another dad, you know, and, and, and. 00:15:50.365 --> 00:15:51.655 I don't know about you. 00:15:51.655 --> 00:16:02.995 Sometimes when I went in with expectations of a podcast, like I was always blown away, or I would say expectations of a podcast, expectations of a conversation, like, we're gonna sit down and have this conversation. 00:16:03.505 --> 00:16:12.325 On the other end of it, when I was done, it was like, I was like blown away at like what actually occurred versus what I maybe anticipated happening. 00:16:12.985 --> 00:16:26.365 And that's the beauty I think in having those conversations in the podcast is like I, and I think sometimes it's better to let go of your expectations and just go into it with here's ano, here's, here's another awesome person that I'm gonna go talk to. 00:16:26.635 --> 00:16:28.915 And where it goes, where is where it goes? 00:16:29.005 --> 00:16:33.415 And you walk out of it, you just had an authentic conversation with somebody. 00:16:33.415 --> 00:16:35.095 And there's so much value in that. 00:16:35.335 --> 00:16:39.895 And then you're capturing that for other people to, to, to lean in and listen to. 00:16:39.895 --> 00:16:45.715 And I think there's so much, so much to that that, uh, I've found personally rewarding. 00:16:46.045 --> 00:16:48.625 And so that's, that resonated with me when you were saying that. 00:16:49.206 --> 00:16:51.126 Well, and the other thing about that is, um. 00:16:51.916 --> 00:16:55.516 It, I, somebody gave me the best compliment I have ever heard. 00:16:55.846 --> 00:17:03.976 Uh, a couple weeks ago they said it sounded like I was just listening to two friends having a conversation. 00:17:03.976 --> 00:17:09.466 And I was, I was basically at lunch with them while they were talking, and it just felt so natural. 00:17:09.466 --> 00:17:11.086 And that's really what I strive for. 00:17:11.116 --> 00:17:20.086 And so I always have questions and I always have ideas of what I want to ask, but then I really try hard to let the conversation go where it needs to. 00:17:20.476 --> 00:17:32.566 And again, after doing with my other podcasts, well over a thousand different interviews at this point, um, that is, that is a skill that has to be worked on and honed and improved. 00:17:32.836 --> 00:17:38.176 And you gotta be able to pick up on things that people hint at, but don't talk a lot about. 00:17:38.236 --> 00:17:44.536 And you know, it just takes time and effort to hear the thing that's interesting and, and dig a little bit deeper. 00:17:44.836 --> 00:17:50.146 And some of that you can do through intense preparation and, and that's cool. 00:17:50.236 --> 00:17:51.106 Um, but. 00:17:51.781 --> 00:18:06.991 But it's also really valuable when you can just do that with people that you don't know that much about, because there's not time to do eight hours of preparation for every podcast interview, um, and, and produce something every week. 00:18:07.321 --> 00:18:10.171 Uh, and so you gotta, you gotta find a balance. 00:18:10.201 --> 00:18:17.761 And a lot of people, when they talk to me about doing a podcast, they're like, I need to spend, you know, hours preparing for this. 00:18:18.121 --> 00:18:25.801 And, you know, if you're gonna be prolific in what, how much you produce, then you've gotta, you've gotta find a balance. 00:18:25.861 --> 00:18:31.291 And especially when at first, and for most people a long time, it's not gonna bring in the money. 00:18:31.561 --> 00:18:40.651 Uh, then you can't be, quote unquote wasting time, uh, doing research for something that's, that's not gonna bring a, a result if that's what you really need it for. 00:18:41.455 --> 00:18:41.645 Yeah. 00:18:42.035 --> 00:18:42.875 Yeah, for sure. 00:18:43.565 --> 00:18:47.675 Um, you started this at 13 years ago. 00:18:47.675 --> 00:18:50.675 The technology was very different back then. 00:18:50.675 --> 00:18:54.995 So what did you use originally for your podcast back then? 00:18:55.055 --> 00:18:57.515 Was that like a Skype or something, or what? 00:18:57.515 --> 00:18:57.575 Uh. 00:18:58.126 --> 00:19:00.106 Uh, I've used Skype. 00:19:00.256 --> 00:19:04.606 I, I found Zoom quickly and I used that, in fact, fun story. 00:19:04.966 --> 00:19:07.066 Zoom was my very first sponsor. 00:19:07.156 --> 00:19:07.936 Can you believe that? 00:19:08.200 --> 00:19:08.595 Oh wow. 00:19:09.166 --> 00:19:09.556 Yeah. 00:19:09.586 --> 00:19:10.396 Isn't that crazy? 00:19:11.986 --> 00:19:12.376 Uh, yeah. 00:19:12.376 --> 00:19:20.806 They gave me a thousand dollars to do the Transformative Leadership Summit in 2016, and I, I reached out to them and I said, Hey, I'm using Zoom to record all these interviews. 00:19:21.436 --> 00:19:24.376 Um, would you consider doing a, a sponsorship? 00:19:24.376 --> 00:19:24.976 And they said, yep. 00:19:24.976 --> 00:19:25.816 And they sent me a check. 00:19:25.816 --> 00:19:28.216 And, and that was, that was pretty awesome. 00:19:28.366 --> 00:19:39.286 Um, so I, I used Skype, uh, I used a webcam, uh, and a and a microphone for my first in-person interview 'cause I didn't really have anything else. 00:19:39.586 --> 00:19:41.296 And it was so terrible. 00:19:41.356 --> 00:19:42.226 It's still up there. 00:19:42.256 --> 00:19:43.396 Sandra Jovi Motz. 00:19:43.396 --> 00:19:45.436 You can go listen to how bad it was in the beginning. 00:19:45.826 --> 00:19:51.826 Um, and there's still a lot of value, but the recording quality was terrible. 00:19:52.186 --> 00:19:54.736 And now you and I are in different locations. 00:19:54.736 --> 00:19:56.386 We're recording in script. 00:19:56.656 --> 00:20:01.096 It's going to make an automatic transcript of this and then I'm gonna edit it. 00:20:01.216 --> 00:20:08.086 Uh, like you edit a, a Word document, take out the things that I want to, and leave the things in that I, that I want to keep. 00:20:08.116 --> 00:20:12.496 And, uh, yeah, it's, it's pretty amazing how times have changed. 00:20:12.526 --> 00:20:16.126 It used to be really difficult to get good audio from both people. 00:20:16.126 --> 00:20:18.976 I used to have to have people record on their end and send me a file. 00:20:20.401 --> 00:20:23.491 that was tough, especially for principals who are not that tech savvy. 00:20:23.491 --> 00:20:25.591 So, uh, this is much better. 00:20:25.591 --> 00:20:30.601 You hit a link and we show up in the room and we start recording and it's very, very simple at this point. 00:20:31.405 --> 00:20:32.305 It's pretty unreal. 00:20:32.785 --> 00:20:41.155 When I was, when I left as an assistant principal, I took a job as the direct one of the directors for the Idaho Digital Learning Academy here in Idaho. 00:20:41.155 --> 00:20:53.965 And one of my early like initiatives was to help connect, you know, different organizations, agencies with, with a virtual live platform. 00:20:54.115 --> 00:21:01.285 And we had, we used this a platform that, I think it was connected maybe to Blackboard or, or something called wiba. 00:21:01.765 --> 00:21:02.275 Um, 00:21:02.371 --> 00:21:03.121 I've used that. 00:21:03.205 --> 00:21:03.835 you have, 00:21:04.081 --> 00:21:04.591 Yeah. 00:21:04.615 --> 00:21:10.480 and so my, in my first year or so, I was, I was training like, you know. 00:21:11.950 --> 00:21:18.490 State government officials or whatever else on how to use that platform so that they could do meetings virtually. 00:21:18.790 --> 00:21:21.760 This is back in what, 2008 or something like that? 00:21:22.330 --> 00:21:28.330 Um, and it was, it's just kind of funny that that even required training one back then. 00:21:28.330 --> 00:21:28.630 Right. 00:21:28.630 --> 00:21:31.210 And the technology was somewhat foreign. 00:21:31.210 --> 00:21:36.160 Like it was moving from the conference calls to, um, where you could actually see each other. 00:21:36.160 --> 00:21:38.380 And, and that was new technology back then. 00:21:38.770 --> 00:21:44.440 So just think about how much it's, it's progressed and where we're at today and, and everything. 00:21:44.440 --> 00:21:46.000 It's just in, uh, insane. 00:21:46.960 --> 00:21:47.230 Okay. 00:21:47.230 --> 00:21:52.600 So related to technology, have you ever heard of this new thing called artificial intelligence? 00:21:52.600 --> 00:21:54.550 Sometimes people call it ai. 00:21:54.940 --> 00:21:55.300 It's 00:21:55.741 --> 00:21:56.851 As a matter of fact, I have, 00:21:56.890 --> 00:21:57.610 okay. 00:21:57.610 --> 00:21:59.590 I was, I wasn't sure if you, you had or not. 00:22:00.400 --> 00:22:01.930 Um, the newest thing. 00:22:01.960 --> 00:22:02.590 No, just kidding. 00:22:02.830 --> 00:22:08.620 Um, I know that this is a big part of, of, of your. 00:22:09.205 --> 00:22:14.875 You know, work right now and, and, uh, I know you're doing a, a dissertation that's keeping you very busy. 00:22:15.295 --> 00:22:17.395 Um, I dunno where you wanna go first. 00:22:17.425 --> 00:22:19.705 Um, let's first talk about your dissertation. 00:22:19.705 --> 00:22:26.245 We'll come back to AI because we could probably spend hours just talking about tools and craziness of ai. 00:22:26.245 --> 00:22:29.245 But tell, talk a little bit about your dissertation. 00:22:29.245 --> 00:22:30.745 What do you, what are you focused on? 00:22:31.045 --> 00:22:32.725 Where are you at in your process? 00:22:33.145 --> 00:22:34.375 Um, yeah. 00:22:35.511 --> 00:22:37.636 Yeah, so, uh, exciting news. 00:22:37.666 --> 00:22:41.121 The, the, the dissertation is, is done. 00:22:42.571 --> 00:22:51.271 I still have to defend it, but I finished writing all the chapters and I've submitted to my professor for review, and he's gonna come back and say, you did this terribly. 00:22:51.271 --> 00:22:52.231 You need to rewrite it. 00:22:52.321 --> 00:22:52.951 Which is fine. 00:22:52.951 --> 00:22:54.691 That's part of the process. 00:22:54.961 --> 00:22:59.731 Um, he already said about one chapter recently, so that's, that's all part of it and not a big deal. 00:22:59.731 --> 00:23:02.341 But that is just the process you have to go through. 00:23:02.701 --> 00:23:17.791 Um, and, and this is when I, when I, I've always wanted to get a doctorate and I've avoided it for a long time because things, I really am frustrated with the education system and going through this process right now. 00:23:17.851 --> 00:23:19.381 The frustration is very real. 00:23:19.801 --> 00:23:21.031 It is so archaic. 00:23:21.031 --> 00:23:22.081 It is so old. 00:23:22.321 --> 00:23:26.761 It is so like, difficult to do the things that you need to do. 00:23:27.151 --> 00:23:34.651 Um, and it is, it is so much about gatekeeping and saying, you, we are the ones who are in charge and you're not. 00:23:34.711 --> 00:23:44.326 And it's really fascinating because the idea of being a. Of getting a doctorate is that you become a peer scholar with the professors and whatnot. 00:23:44.386 --> 00:23:54.376 And uh, and it's a really fascinating transition to move from a student to being a scholar with someone else. 00:23:54.766 --> 00:24:08.236 And a lot of people have a really hard time, one with becoming the scholar, and then a lot of people who are the scholars have a really hard time letting people into their clique or their group. 00:24:08.446 --> 00:24:17.956 And this is just a really fascinating thing that, that I have seen up close and personal as I've been going through this and, and it's so fascinating. 00:24:18.226 --> 00:24:25.246 Um, but the thing about how AI works into this is that, um, my. 00:24:26.041 --> 00:24:30.121 My dissertation is on how principals can use AI for innovation. 00:24:30.631 --> 00:24:38.311 And, and so I did a training that you were at in Wyoming and taught people about how they could use it for innovation. 00:24:38.311 --> 00:24:54.001 And it's been really cool to see as I've done a presentation like that many times, uh, this doctorate is a, is a dissertation and practice, which means that I, presentation was part of the, the, the dissertation as a whole. 00:24:54.091 --> 00:25:07.531 And it's been really interesting to see how people respond to that, how I set the training up intentionally to have people experience different things as they were going through it and how that has, uh, that, that worked out. 00:25:07.531 --> 00:25:09.481 And that's, that's what people did experience. 00:25:09.481 --> 00:25:13.081 And my idea was right, that I could get people to feel. 00:25:13.771 --> 00:25:25.201 Excitement and frustration about it, and that I could force them into the frustration, but then have them leaving feeling positive about the future, which is not always an easy thing to do. 00:25:25.201 --> 00:25:27.811 And, and I'll briefly explain how that works. 00:25:28.231 --> 00:25:33.511 When, when you're working with ai, it's really easy to think AI can do anything because it can. 00:25:33.661 --> 00:25:34.831 And it says that it can. 00:25:35.401 --> 00:25:42.601 But the real challenge comes when you try to get it to do something really specific that solves a problem that you actually need help solving. 00:25:43.291 --> 00:25:51.241 And if the problem is complex enough, then it can be very frustrating as you try to get it to do what you need it to. 00:25:51.451 --> 00:26:03.961 So, for example, in very simple terms, let's say that you want AI to write a letter and you want it to use very specific verbiage, um, in that letter and. 00:26:04.441 --> 00:26:12.511 Like, it's very difficult to get AI to use that very specific verbiage and to use the tone of voice that you would use and, and all that stuff. 00:26:12.601 --> 00:26:17.851 So that's a real challenge and that's a very simple example that AI can totally do. 00:26:18.151 --> 00:26:21.781 But when you take it to the next level, make it more complex than that. 00:26:21.841 --> 00:26:29.521 And you say, for example, I want to create an app that teaches digital citizenship to our students. 00:26:30.181 --> 00:26:34.471 that so they can go through and play a game to learn how to be good digital citizens. 00:26:34.801 --> 00:26:56.311 That's way more complex, but it's not beyond the realm of possibility, it requires a lot more work to make it happen, and it requires a lot more focus and understanding the problem, what it is and understanding how it can, AI can actually help in that situation because it's not always clear how, how that works. 00:26:56.791 --> 00:26:57.391 So. 00:26:58.321 --> 00:27:07.141 That's what my, uh, dissertation was about, was how to use it for innovation and create new things instead of just, uh, doing the same old things we've always done. 00:27:07.171 --> 00:27:15.776 One of the key points of that presentation was asking the participants there, should you actually be doing this thing that you're trying to get AI to do? 00:27:16.546 --> 00:27:21.076 If AI can write a newsletter for you, do you actually need to write the newsletter? 00:27:21.316 --> 00:27:23.626 Maybe that's something that you don't even need to do. 00:27:23.986 --> 00:27:39.166 And as I read things and I see, and I can tell that they're written by ai, I often zone out and don't pay any attention to it because you can tell when somebody puts their heart and soul into something and when somebody just tries to do it in the fastest way possible. 00:27:39.496 --> 00:27:40.546 And there is a difference. 00:27:40.546 --> 00:27:51.826 And so that's part of what I'm trying to understand in this new world of AI that we're living in, of, of how, when do we use it and when is it beneficial and when is it actually a detriment to what we're doing? 00:27:52.156 --> 00:27:58.066 And so there's, there's a brief overview of something that I could, like you said, go on for hours about. 00:27:59.940 --> 00:28:07.395 Let's zero in on the innovation part of education and how AI can play a part in this. 00:28:07.695 --> 00:28:17.445 When you talk about the innovation, um, I think what you're talking about is, is that education really feels and looks different because you're leveraging ai. 00:28:17.445 --> 00:28:21.435 It's not just making things more efficient in the current model, right? 00:28:21.435 --> 00:28:24.195 That's not innovation, that's just efficiency. 00:28:25.965 --> 00:28:26.205 So. 00:28:28.405 --> 00:28:34.915 Do you have a, either, you know, a specific example of, of how that's being done right now in practice? 00:28:34.915 --> 00:28:36.295 Or is it just theory right now? 00:28:37.666 --> 00:28:42.646 Well, I, I do think that there is some practice and I want to talk to people who are doing it. 00:28:42.646 --> 00:28:45.466 So if you're listening and you're like, yeah, we're doing that, then let me know. 00:28:45.886 --> 00:28:57.496 Um, I, I did something very different when I was principal in Fairbanks of, we created this time called Synergy, and we took it out of the classroom, out of the content classroom, I should say. 00:28:57.796 --> 00:29:01.546 So a math teacher wasn't in a math classroom when this was happening. 00:29:01.576 --> 00:29:05.056 She was just an adult supervising a group of kids. 00:29:05.416 --> 00:29:12.616 And the things that the kids were able to do from this Synergy program was truly amazing. 00:29:12.886 --> 00:29:20.116 And we measured one group and looked at the, the, the standards that they passed off. 00:29:20.491 --> 00:29:33.751 And this group of seventh grade girls was passing off standards all the way up through 12th grade, and even passing off some standards beyond 12th grade adult life skills that we don't even bother teaching in school. 00:29:35.131 --> 00:29:48.241 I can only imagine how much better their growth and development would have been if they had AI as a tool back then, because all we had was automation and early steps in, machine learning. 00:29:48.241 --> 00:29:52.201 So there wasn't a lot there that was, that was happening. 00:29:53.371 --> 00:30:04.921 But now the, the, the theoretical part that I am harping on constantly is we, we have to change how we do, uh, schoolwork. 00:30:05.401 --> 00:30:10.171 It has to go from being assignment based to process based. 00:30:10.441 --> 00:30:17.221 And the way that it works in school right now is you, you get an assignment, you do the assignment, you turn it in, and the whole point. 00:30:17.911 --> 00:30:23.431 From a student's perspective is to get the assignment done and get it turned in so they can get a grade. 00:30:23.911 --> 00:30:30.871 And in my mind, if I were to recreate schools right now, what I would say is you're not allowed to give any assignments. 00:30:31.141 --> 00:30:44.941 You're not allowed to give any tests and those completely out and instead focus on the process that kids are going through to learn things and actually do something that is worthwhile and meaningful. 00:30:45.331 --> 00:30:53.551 That's exactly the approach that we took with Synergy in Fairbanks, and it was incredible and kids are totally capable of it. 00:30:54.661 --> 00:31:00.211 our system is designed to make everything easy for the teachers and the adults in the building. 00:31:00.451 --> 00:31:03.451 Our system is not designed to increase learning. 00:31:04.171 --> 00:31:14.251 The only way that it is designed to increase learning is when we are talking about very specific, uh, what they call primary biological knowledge, which is stuff that you can say. 00:31:14.926 --> 00:31:17.236 Here, there's a right answer and a wrong answer. 00:31:17.356 --> 00:31:18.706 And, and here it is. 00:31:18.706 --> 00:31:23.356 Simple edition math, uh, learning how to read those kinds of things. 00:31:23.356 --> 00:31:25.036 Learning how to read, super important. 00:31:25.306 --> 00:31:30.826 We know how to do it, and yet there are tons of kids who aren't there with their reading scores yet. 00:31:31.726 --> 00:31:32.536 a real issue. 00:31:32.866 --> 00:31:44.776 But once they can read, then you have to switch, in my opinion, immediately to start working on projects and learn through the projects and keep track of the learning through the projects. 00:31:45.196 --> 00:31:50.266 'cause it's not about finishing or accomplish anything, but that's all that our current system is focused on. 00:31:50.626 --> 00:31:56.026 It's about the process of learning as you're going through whatever you're trying to accomplish. 00:31:56.026 --> 00:32:01.756 And failure is absolutely okay in that situation, but failure is not okay in our current system. 00:32:04.230 --> 00:32:05.355 Let me, um. 00:32:07.375 --> 00:32:19.855 Let me talk through some things that come to mind when you're, you're saying that, that I think listeners, including myself, um, might challenge the theory of what you're saying with the practicality. 00:32:20.305 --> 00:32:48.355 Um, I wanna start with accountability on the student, student side sometime, and I'm not just saying I'm not, I'm not gonna say this is the right way or whatever else right now, but I want to, I wanna just put this on the table, that when you talk about assignments and assessments, um, in some ways those are accountability measures that the student is held to, to, um, that they're, that they're, yeah. 00:32:48.355 --> 00:32:57.445 That they're measured on, on in terms of their accountability for, for learning and also for their effort. 00:32:57.505 --> 00:32:57.985 Right. 00:32:58.465 --> 00:33:03.835 Um, what are you, are you saying that that goes away and if so. 00:33:04.390 --> 00:33:11.410 What replaces, if anything, the accountability that for, for the students. 00:33:13.631 --> 00:33:18.631 Well, and this, this brings up the point of why do we need students to be accountable? 00:33:19.056 --> 00:33:20.076 What are they accountable to? 00:33:21.886 --> 00:33:29.566 And we don't have a good answer for that because the accountability is, are you doing what I say you need to be doing In our current system? 00:33:30.406 --> 00:33:31.366 really what it is. 00:33:32.416 --> 00:33:33.676 love to learn. 00:33:34.126 --> 00:33:36.526 Every human being loves to learn. 00:33:36.616 --> 00:33:37.786 We thrive on it. 00:33:37.816 --> 00:33:41.566 We, we feel so good about every opportunity that we have to learn. 00:33:42.466 --> 00:33:43.486 when they are hard. 00:33:43.816 --> 00:33:51.796 We go back through any experience in our life that taught us anything that is worthwhile and we are like, really sucked. 00:33:52.786 --> 00:33:57.766 I'm glad that I learned what I learned from it, even though I never want to go through that again. 00:33:58.456 --> 00:33:59.626 We can still learn something. 00:34:05.655 --> 00:34:07.155 Balance that. 00:34:07.605 --> 00:34:08.235 Agree. 00:34:08.235 --> 00:34:18.705 Everyone loves to learn, but sometimes including myself and especially, you know, kids, they would love to just sleep in all day instead. 00:34:18.705 --> 00:34:26.715 Or they would love to just scroll through on their phone, you know, or they would just like to sit on the couch and eat Cheetos. 00:34:27.105 --> 00:34:30.465 And I'm not just saying that for Stu, for, for, for adolescents. 00:34:30.465 --> 00:34:32.265 I'm saying humans 00:34:32.930 --> 00:34:33.150 Yes, 00:34:33.495 --> 00:34:35.235 love comfort, right? 00:34:35.295 --> 00:34:37.155 And do what's comfortable. 00:34:37.365 --> 00:34:56.385 And sometimes the accountability is pushing you either by mandate or expectation or whatever else, pushing you out of comfort to accountability that forces you in some ways to be a learner. 00:34:57.450 --> 00:34:57.740 Yeah. 00:34:58.420 --> 00:34:58.710 Yeah. 00:34:59.165 --> 00:35:02.285 Because also we've designed our system based on that, right? 00:35:02.465 --> 00:35:11.555 So we have these accountability measures in place to ensure that our kids are learning because we have to show that they're learning because if we don't, then somebody's going to get upset. 00:35:11.945 --> 00:35:23.615 I had someone, uh, in, I was talking to a group of principals and one of was like talking about parents who aren't engaged in their kids' lives and how there's no accountability for parents. 00:35:23.675 --> 00:35:25.025 And I was like, are you kidding me? 00:35:25.925 --> 00:35:30.785 There is definitely accountability for parents if you have a 30-year-old kid. 00:35:31.655 --> 00:35:39.605 on your couch, living in your basement because you did not train them up in how to live their own life, and they're still dependent on you for everything. 00:35:40.025 --> 00:35:41.825 That's some pretty harsh accountability. 00:35:42.575 --> 00:35:53.735 reality is, is that these accountability measures that we have in schools are, are made up and fake get to the point where we can force kids to do what we need them to do. 00:35:54.845 --> 00:35:56.465 that's the system that we've designed. 00:35:56.645 --> 00:35:58.385 I, it is what it is. 00:35:58.775 --> 00:36:15.845 So what I'm proposing is that if we had a different system and we said, instead of forcing kids to do this accountability thing, we found things that they were interested in, gave them opportunities to pursue learning in the areas that they're interested in, then that would open up a lot of opportunities for them. 00:36:16.115 --> 00:36:18.845 Now, I did this with my whole school of 500 kids. 00:36:19.520 --> 00:36:31.970 And were there kids who were not interested, who flitted around from group to group and could not find anything and appeared from our perspective that they weren't doing anything and weren't being productive. 00:36:31.970 --> 00:36:33.920 And weren't contributing, and weren't learning. 00:36:34.370 --> 00:36:41.870 Yes, those kids did exist, but first and foremost, it was like 10 kids out of 500. 00:36:43.040 --> 00:36:46.400 else was like, I can get on board with this and let's do something cool. 00:36:46.760 --> 00:36:59.390 So those 10 kids we needed to focus on and help provide additional support, and they needed some sort of external accountability to help them, that is the exception rather than the rule. 00:36:59.540 --> 00:37:03.680 We can unlock our students' potential in amazing ways. 00:37:03.950 --> 00:37:13.910 And the reason why nobody believes that that is possible is because all they've experienced is kids are required to do this. 00:37:14.525 --> 00:37:17.735 This is accountability to make sure they do what we want them to do. 00:37:18.065 --> 00:37:31.415 When if they took the other approach and just tried it, then they would see that kids actually do want to learn, do want to be engaged in interesting things, and that could even relate to the content that you're trying to teach them. 00:37:32.405 --> 00:37:51.365 What that also necessitates is that there are some things that kids are not going to learn all at the same time, and that is super uncomfortable for us as educators because we look at that and we think, oh, if they, if, if this kid is not learning this thing by this time, then they're going to be quote unquote behind. 00:37:51.695 --> 00:37:54.125 But that's another misnomer that we have in education. 00:37:54.125 --> 00:37:56.525 There's no such thing as you being behind. 00:37:56.915 --> 00:38:01.475 In your own learning process, you are only where you are at. 00:38:01.565 --> 00:38:07.955 You can't be behind because if, if you could be behind, then that would be your normal. 00:38:08.015 --> 00:38:16.205 So it's, it's this artificial thing that is created that wherever you are at personally your pathway. 00:38:16.235 --> 00:38:23.435 And it's okay for us each to have our own pathway, but the way the system is designed, we are not interested in each kid having their own pathway. 00:38:23.675 --> 00:38:28.925 We're interested in them all going at the same pace, in the same way, in the same direction, getting the same things. 00:38:32.360 --> 00:38:34.700 There's part of me that wants to 00:38:37.190 --> 00:38:44.480 agree with this theory and there's so much of my, that just wants to say chest row, that's a bunch of bull beep. 00:38:46.970 --> 00:39:04.250 There's my practical side that's been in the school leadership side, and that's, that also has, you know, my, you know, has been in the classroom, has been the, you know, all the stuff has, has had my own kids and then, and then the other side that's like, yeah, that sounds theoretically all wonderful. 00:39:04.370 --> 00:39:14.150 Um, but you're still dealing with human nature and sometimes, well, not, sometimes humans need. 00:39:14.895 --> 00:39:18.885 Structure to thrive within, uh, 00:39:20.525 --> 00:39:20.745 Go ahead. 00:39:22.695 --> 00:39:32.775 need structure and also accountability to, to produce and to, to reach for what they're capable of. 00:39:33.405 --> 00:39:37.905 And to say that, um, how did you say it? 00:39:37.965 --> 00:39:46.995 Um, learning at your own pace kind of goes out, or, or, uh, being behind is, is irrelevant. 00:39:47.805 --> 00:39:49.275 Totally disagree with that. 00:39:49.425 --> 00:39:53.955 Like, you're not gonna have a, a 15-year-old sitting in a first grade desk, 00:39:55.385 --> 00:39:56.915 And that's not what I'm talking about though, 00:39:57.705 --> 00:39:59.925 but, but pace does matter, right? 00:39:59.925 --> 00:40:11.055 I mean, yes, everyone learns differently, but, um, learning at a, at a, at a progression, a a certain progression should. 00:40:12.075 --> 00:40:22.755 Should play into this, that it's not just kind of a free form, that if it takes you five years to learn how to read versus five months. 00:40:22.845 --> 00:40:26.685 I mean, I don't know if that's realistic either. 00:40:27.620 --> 00:40:30.410 Oh, uh, and that's not what I'm saying at all, to be clear. 00:40:30.830 --> 00:40:32.210 So a couple things. 00:40:32.300 --> 00:40:35.270 Structure does matter and it helps us. 00:40:35.420 --> 00:40:40.820 Entropy is very real and we all would prefer to just sit on the couch and not do anything. 00:40:41.210 --> 00:40:47.540 And so we create accountability and structure in different ways, is what I'm suggesting. 00:40:48.290 --> 00:40:55.820 current accountability is do this or get a bad grade, and that obviously it works. 00:40:56.240 --> 00:40:58.070 Also not for everybody. 00:40:59.060 --> 00:41:03.590 we're okay with those failures because we're okay with writing those kids off. 00:41:03.920 --> 00:41:06.110 And every educator hates it when I say that. 00:41:06.110 --> 00:41:11.930 But the reality is we are okay with writing some kids off, and we do things to show that we are okay with that. 00:41:12.260 --> 00:41:16.190 Now, none of us wants to be the one to say that we, we believe that. 00:41:16.490 --> 00:41:19.070 But the way our system is set up, we do that. 00:41:19.070 --> 00:41:26.960 When I was principal of the homeschool program in Alaska, is how te uh, principals and other schools showed that they were okay with failure. 00:41:27.740 --> 00:41:30.620 would say, this kid looks like they're gonna drop out. 00:41:30.740 --> 00:41:35.630 We should transfer them to the homeschool program that will work for them. 00:41:35.660 --> 00:41:38.300 A kid who's not engaged doesn't care. 00:41:38.300 --> 00:41:45.950 Do you think they're gonna go to a homeschool program that's set up like school, but you're, you're supposed to do it all on your own, that you think that's gonna work? 00:41:46.100 --> 00:41:47.870 No, it's definitely not gonna work. 00:41:47.870 --> 00:41:57.740 And they would send them to us one, and I don't think they were malicious in, in their intent about this, but this is a natural consequence of the accountability systems in place. 00:41:58.670 --> 00:42:02.780 didn't want that kid to count against their graduation rate because we paid attention to that. 00:42:02.990 --> 00:42:11.990 And if that kid wasn't enrolled in their school, them not graduating on time was not a problem because it didn't show up on their school's data. 00:42:12.230 --> 00:42:16.040 And so we make little decisions like that unintentionally. 00:42:16.040 --> 00:42:23.000 I think, not because we are malicious people, but we work within the accountability structures that we have. 00:42:23.060 --> 00:42:29.450 And so the thing is, is that in the system that I'm proposing, students learn way faster. 00:42:29.810 --> 00:42:32.900 So it's not about a kid taking forever to learn something. 00:42:33.230 --> 00:42:49.820 You would find the structure and accountability to help that kid do learn what they need to learn because you'd be focused on that individual kid and what they need, not whether or not they are working in the system that you already have developed and, and that's a key difference. 00:42:51.350 --> 00:42:59.095 Okay, so, so this is getting to a little bit in my mind on the whole school choice, um, discussion, right? 00:43:00.105 --> 00:43:18.135 Um, I want to start here by saying, you know, or asking really, like, are you, are you saying that this theoretical system that you're, you're kind of describing is the right solution for all or for some. 00:43:20.075 --> 00:43:23.150 So, uh, what I'm saying is that it should be the first choice. 00:43:23.900 --> 00:43:33.080 If somebody is really struggling or needs something special, then we can do a different accountability or learning system that works for them. 00:43:33.350 --> 00:43:35.600 For example, my oldest daughter has Down syndrome. 00:43:35.780 --> 00:43:39.230 She has very different needs than other kids. 00:43:39.470 --> 00:43:51.860 We have to recognize that each kid is individual and unique and we need to set them up for the most amount of success regardless of what their specific challenges, weaknesses, strengths, whatever may be. 00:43:52.820 --> 00:43:54.080 to me is the key. 00:43:54.080 --> 00:44:10.910 That's where we start them opportunities to do things that are interesting to them, that they will be, uh, self or intrinsically motivated to accomplish, makes a huge difference in what they're doing and what they want to spend their time doing. 00:44:11.780 --> 00:44:14.240 that then creates their own accountability. 00:44:14.240 --> 00:44:17.120 That's way more powerful than you have to do this because I said. 00:44:17.870 --> 00:44:31.250 we have kids who struggle with homelessness, with other disabilities, with anxiety, with, uh, Tourette syndrome, whatever the case is, need to adapt to meet their needs and help them be successful. 00:44:31.250 --> 00:44:36.530 And that may mean have an assignment and it is due at this time, and you have to do this. 00:44:37.460 --> 00:44:52.040 may be what that person needs, but the first thing should be let's find something that you are interested in that you can put your heart into that and, and if it changes every six months, that's totally okay too. 00:44:52.370 --> 00:44:59.300 But that's also part that's frustrating for educators because they want it to be this nice little box that fits into this specific time period. 00:44:59.630 --> 00:45:06.620 They don't want kids change their mind every six weeks, but that's okay if they do too, because they're still trying to figure out what does interest them. 00:45:06.800 --> 00:45:12.500 And it's okay because it's not like they're missing anything by moving from project to project. 00:45:12.890 --> 00:45:19.040 They are experiencing and learning and we need to recognize and appreciate that learning as well. 00:45:21.580 --> 00:45:29.430 Yeah, I, I, I hear what you're saying and I think where, where, what I, what I like is the idea of, for. 00:45:31.290 --> 00:45:34.410 For, you know, maybe it's a large percentage of students. 00:45:34.500 --> 00:45:48.630 The, the model you're describing where there is choice in path and pace and, and, and project, et cetera and so forth, can help a student really thrive and get into their kind of flow zone. 00:45:49.080 --> 00:45:56.940 While other students might really struggle in that, and it might be just the opposite for them, that they need more structure. 00:45:56.940 --> 00:46:04.350 So I think I, you know, that it's not where this whole conversation was meant, you know, like the, this is school choice kind of focus. 00:46:04.350 --> 00:46:16.530 But that is where there's some advantages when you're in a place where there is options because what one model might be to your detriment, where for other students it might be where you thrive. 00:46:16.560 --> 00:46:18.960 And having, having options is great. 00:46:19.020 --> 00:46:22.530 And unfortunately there's not a lot in some way. 00:46:22.560 --> 00:46:24.960 Some, some places where there are a lot of options. 00:46:25.170 --> 00:46:26.610 So, um. 00:46:28.565 --> 00:46:31.895 So let me, let me add just one more thing to this. 00:46:32.285 --> 00:46:40.805 If, if this is the way that we are approaching it and we go back to this idea of kids not being behind or ahead, 'cause they're only behind and ahead. 00:46:40.955 --> 00:46:47.915 When we compare them to others in their own learning journey, there is only one direction and that is forward. 00:46:48.335 --> 00:46:52.145 And even when they don't learn what we think they should learn, they're still learning something. 00:46:52.415 --> 00:47:05.045 And, and we have to take this more comprehensive view of what learning is, that it's not just the things we grade on in school, but it's who they are developing into as a person that matters tremendously. 00:47:05.045 --> 00:47:12.725 And that needs to be accounted for and included in this because that is an important part of, of who they become. 00:47:13.055 --> 00:47:17.915 So there's a great Martin Luther, Martin Luther King Jr. Quote that. 00:47:18.920 --> 00:47:20.120 Character education. 00:47:20.120 --> 00:47:32.570 Teaching them the kind of people we, we want them to become is so important because it doesn't matter how smart you are, if you are a terrible person you are, uh, that's not good. 00:47:32.750 --> 00:47:35.870 So we want to teach them to be good people as well. 00:47:35.870 --> 00:47:54.560 And the best way to teach those things is for them to experience these things and do different projects and things that they're interested in so that they can see what happens when something they really care about is threatened or is successful or is sabotaged or is helped to be even better than it could have been. 00:47:55.970 --> 00:48:07.430 Our limited focus on reading and math and test scores and assignments this, this singular focus on things that nobody remembers later. 00:48:07.910 --> 00:48:12.320 But if we expand our vision of learning to be other things, then every. 00:48:12.815 --> 00:48:23.705 Interaction becomes a learning opportunity where somebody can learn something that may be academic, but most likely that will be about human nature, about who they are and about who they want to become. 00:48:23.915 --> 00:48:27.065 That will be beneficial to them in the long run. 00:48:27.395 --> 00:48:34.985 And again, we are only looking at academics, then yes, a kid could be behind where we expect them to be or where their peers are. 00:48:35.405 --> 00:48:44.435 But again, in their own learning journey, holistically, they cannot possibly be behind because they, they are where they are at. 00:48:45.185 --> 00:48:51.155 And if it's not where we want them to be and not where they want to be, then we can take action to improve that. 00:48:51.575 --> 00:48:59.315 And if they are farther ahead than where we would expect them to be, then we can celebrate and continue on and help them do that even more. 00:49:03.190 --> 00:49:09.870 Ezra, have you ever started an interview expecting it to go one way, only to have it transform into something totally different? 00:49:10.760 --> 00:49:12.050 Every single time. 00:49:12.200 --> 00:49:13.880 That is the beauty of this. 00:49:15.795 --> 00:49:16.365 Awesome. 00:49:16.620 --> 00:49:23.355 I mean, I could just, I could just keep digging into un unlayering the onion here and just going, going deeper. 00:49:23.415 --> 00:49:28.185 Uh, but I'm also conscious of, of the time, uh, for this, for this conversation. 00:49:28.785 --> 00:49:30.615 Um, I love it. 00:49:31.665 --> 00:49:35.385 I think we should have more discussion on that, maybe offline. 00:49:35.475 --> 00:49:38.175 Um, so I like a lot of things you're saying. 00:49:38.205 --> 00:49:40.485 I would challenge some of them in theory. 00:49:40.995 --> 00:49:44.835 So, um, I'm waving at you. 00:49:44.925 --> 00:49:47.445 Hello visitors. 00:49:47.985 --> 00:49:57.195 Um, so let's, I'm gonna, I'm gonna shift a little bit, um, as you think about your next. 00:49:58.065 --> 00:50:01.935 Chapter and kind of where you're going from, from, from here. 00:50:02.235 --> 00:50:14.925 You spent a decade plus on this, on this podcast obviously are working on your, your dissertation, which sounds like it's starting to wrap up and take shape and moving in the right direction of where you want it to be. 00:50:15.315 --> 00:50:21.015 Um, what's next for you and, and, and how do you see Jethro in the future? 00:50:21.075 --> 00:50:22.995 J Jethro 3.0 or 4.0? 00:50:22.995 --> 00:50:24.435 I don't know what, where you are at right now. 00:50:25.110 --> 00:50:25.400 Yeah. 00:50:25.520 --> 00:50:28.970 Um, I will call it, uh, let's see, how old am I? 00:50:28.975 --> 00:50:30.350 I'll call it 44.2. 00:50:31.475 --> 00:50:38.705 It's where I'm at because, uh, like I said, I have this holistic view of people and how they learn and who they are. 00:50:38.705 --> 00:50:47.525 And so that, that version starts at 0.0 when you're born and it just grows every single day and every single year for your whole life. 00:50:47.525 --> 00:50:53.615 So, um, so definitely not way past version 2.0 and 3.0. 00:50:53.975 --> 00:51:01.775 So, um, so here, I I am really excited about my own personal next step. 00:51:01.865 --> 00:51:19.715 Um, I've had a lot of career changes and done a lot of different things and, uh, I just, uh, am gonna start, well, I just accepted a job with a company called Life Lab and uh, it's with my friend Jeff Becker, whom I've known for, uh, about eight years, and he does. 00:51:20.210 --> 00:51:27.110 Uh, life skills curriculum, video curriculum for schools, and I will be helping him with that. 00:51:27.140 --> 00:51:39.470 Uh, it helping with everything, the, the whole business, which I'm really excited about because based on what we've talked about this whole time, truly is the education to me that matters. 00:51:39.890 --> 00:51:42.680 This book's stuff, the academic part. 00:51:43.190 --> 00:51:45.080 Anybody can learn anything at any time. 00:51:45.410 --> 00:51:49.940 And, and there, to me, there's no hurry on that except being able to read. 00:51:49.940 --> 00:51:52.400 Because once you can read, you can do everything else. 00:51:52.400 --> 00:51:53.900 So that should be the priority. 00:51:55.040 --> 00:51:58.825 But all these other things are really vastly more important. 00:51:59.205 --> 00:52:05.630 And, and what I love about this company Life Lab is that they have zero prep teacher lessons. 00:52:05.810 --> 00:52:10.400 So the thing that every teacher loves an interview, what do they say? 00:52:10.400 --> 00:52:11.145 Why'd they go into teaching? 00:52:11.945 --> 00:52:14.555 It's so they could see the light bulb go off in the kids' eyes, right? 00:52:15.035 --> 00:52:23.795 And, and the way that you have those experiences is not by designing this really amazing lesson and, and delivering it. 00:52:23.795 --> 00:52:30.725 So the kids are like, oh, wow, that was amazing because one, that almost never happens because they don't ever want to learn that stuff in the first place. 00:52:31.535 --> 00:52:40.295 what, when it really happens is when you can have these informal conversations about what kids are learning about themselves and the people around them, where it's really powerful. 00:52:40.295 --> 00:52:43.655 And this curriculum sets you up to do just that. 00:52:44.015 --> 00:52:50.045 You watch a video with the kids and then you have time to chat with them about what they learn from it. 00:52:50.045 --> 00:53:00.575 So if you're talking about growth mindset, or you're talking about fixed mindset, or you're talking about, um, how to calculate your GPA or whatever, like how to get a credit card, all these different things. 00:53:01.595 --> 00:53:11.135 When, when kids have an opportunity to talk about that with an adult, that's when the real light bulbs go off, because those are the things that really matter to them. 00:53:11.585 --> 00:53:23.015 And Jeff has done an amazing job of creating these very engaging, uh, interactive videos where the teacher basically just shows it and then we talk about it. 00:53:23.015 --> 00:53:26.375 And that is what every teacher wants to be able to do. 00:53:26.975 --> 00:53:32.825 No teacher wants to give a prepared PowerPoint about some academic or non-academic skill. 00:53:33.890 --> 00:53:35.000 And then be stuck to that. 00:53:35.330 --> 00:53:37.760 They want to have the free flowing open conversations. 00:53:37.760 --> 00:53:41.480 And that's exactly what this does, which I am, I am super excited about. 00:53:41.480 --> 00:53:47.990 So Jeff's been doing this for a long time and he is expanding and growing and needs some extra help. 00:53:48.290 --> 00:53:53.360 And, uh, and I have some skills that are gonna be really beneficial to him. 00:53:53.630 --> 00:53:55.760 And I have a lot to learn in that area also. 00:53:55.760 --> 00:53:59.990 So I'm really excited and if you're interested in that, discover life lab.com. 00:54:00.050 --> 00:54:04.280 Go check it out and, and say hello when I send you an email later. 00:54:06.585 --> 00:54:07.785 First, congratulations. 00:54:07.785 --> 00:54:09.015 That's exciting for you. 00:54:09.075 --> 00:54:14.055 Um, and, and exciting for Jeff to, to get, to bring you on, on board. 00:54:14.145 --> 00:54:24.585 Um, and I, you know, some skills Jeff throw, you have a lot of skills and a lot to bring to the table, so he's super fortunate to, to snag you and to bring you on board. 00:54:24.615 --> 00:54:25.695 I love the name. 00:54:25.755 --> 00:54:27.405 Um, discover Life Lab. 00:54:27.405 --> 00:54:30.765 The Life Lab idea and kind of what, what you are focused on. 00:54:31.125 --> 00:54:36.285 Huge opportunity there and, uh, what a great resource for educators. 00:54:36.285 --> 00:54:40.605 So, um, and tell, tell me a little bit about what you're gonna be doing. 00:54:40.605 --> 00:54:44.770 It sounds like kinda like ops type stuff, at least initially, initially. 00:54:45.545 --> 00:54:53.915 Yeah, so I've actually spent the last month just working, uh, on a contract basis with him to one, see if we're a good fit and we like working together. 00:54:53.915 --> 00:55:02.555 And two, to see what kind of skills I gravitate towards, which, what a brilliant way to bring someone on to, uh, to anything. 00:55:02.615 --> 00:55:14.225 And I got a whole theory of how we should onboard teachers in schools also, but, um, but that, that is part of it, that you give people an opportunity to, to test the waters and see how it works. 00:55:14.795 --> 00:55:25.085 Um, but the operations stuff of figuring out, um, automations to make things work better, we are very, uh, focused company as we should be. 00:55:25.085 --> 00:55:36.125 And so using AI in a way that the human connection and doesn't, um, take away from it, which is something that Jeff and I have talked about before and super important. 00:55:36.185 --> 00:55:51.755 Um, but doing all, all the things to make it easy for a. a school to adopt this and, and put it into, into practice with their, with their school, and, you know, provide training for the teachers so they know how to do it. 00:55:52.205 --> 00:56:00.965 Um, there's a whole bunch of stuff around that, but there's, most people don't understand all the things that go into, uh, running a business in a successful way. 00:56:01.235 --> 00:56:10.475 And not just like having money come in and, and limiting expenses, but also what kinds of things you have to do to make it a good experience for someone. 00:56:10.625 --> 00:56:16.745 And so all, all the, all the little things that go on in the background, that's where I'm gonna be focusing. 00:56:16.865 --> 00:56:36.395 And that's a, that's a different kind of position for me, but that is the only way that I've been able to make my own business work, is by having all these systems and processes in place so that I can, as we talked about before, so that I can be lazy do as little work as possible, because that's really what I want to do too. 00:56:36.665 --> 00:56:37.355 And so. 00:56:37.835 --> 00:56:38.325 Just kidding. 00:56:38.810 --> 00:56:39.200 Yep. 00:56:39.230 --> 00:56:41.780 And I, I don't disagree with you on that at all. 00:56:41.990 --> 00:56:43.040 So that 00:56:43.220 --> 00:56:43.910 about the Chino? 00:56:44.960 --> 00:56:45.530 what's that? 00:56:45.570 --> 00:56:45.810 Eat. 00:56:45.810 --> 00:56:46.590 What about the Cheetos? 00:56:46.590 --> 00:56:48.450 Eating the Cheetos on the couch or just being lazy? 00:56:49.760 --> 00:56:50.900 Cheetos are good too. 00:56:51.020 --> 00:56:53.420 Uh, my daughter's into talks right now, so 00:56:53.675 --> 00:56:54.810 Little, little messy. 00:56:54.870 --> 00:56:55.590 Alright, keep going. 00:56:55.740 --> 00:56:56.175 Carry on. 00:56:56.420 --> 00:56:56.660 Yeah. 00:56:56.660 --> 00:57:12.110 So, you know, doing all these things in the background that need to happen, that is, that's, that's what I'm trying to do, is to make it as easy as possible for the company and for the schools to get started and have this working and make it as easy as possible for everybody involved. 00:57:13.530 --> 00:57:14.020 Awesome, awesome. 00:57:15.180 --> 00:57:15.600 All right. 00:57:15.600 --> 00:57:24.810 If you could give one message directly to every school leader listening right now, or whoever listening right now, um, what would you wanna say? 00:57:26.120 --> 00:57:34.550 You know, I, I think it's this, the, the question I ask at every, at the end of every show is, what should a principal do this week to be a Transformative Principal like you? 00:57:35.060 --> 00:57:35.630 And. 00:57:37.445 --> 00:57:40.235 Yeah, this goes to you as a person. 00:57:41.405 --> 00:57:50.765 You cannot predict the future, you can put things in place to make the future you want a little bit more likely. 00:57:51.245 --> 00:57:59.765 And, and that doesn't mean that you can, you can do anything to, to make that perfect and have it be exactly what you want. 00:58:00.215 --> 00:58:07.535 And what I really strive to do with my own kids and in my own life is take away all expectations. 00:58:08.255 --> 00:58:11.765 Don't have any expectations for anyone or anything. 00:58:12.485 --> 00:58:13.595 You can set goals. 00:58:13.655 --> 00:58:17.255 You can have standards, but don't worry about expectations. 00:58:17.285 --> 00:58:26.045 And this is a really moment to to, to take that expectation off and not have it because you just can't control it. 00:58:26.285 --> 00:58:32.105 So you can have standards and say, I'm going to do these specific things, and this is a standard that I live by. 00:58:32.585 --> 00:58:36.545 You can have goals and say, I'm going to try to achieve this thing. 00:58:36.845 --> 00:58:44.075 And that's all well and good, but when it becomes an expectation, then it, it, it reacts differently in your life. 00:58:44.165 --> 00:58:48.815 And when you don't get it, you feel disappointed because you didn't get it. 00:58:50.105 --> 00:58:52.085 but when it's a goal, it's different. 00:58:52.325 --> 00:58:59.555 'cause if you don't reach your goal, then you're like, oh, I worked really hard and I, and it didn't happen and it's outta my control and that's okay. 00:58:59.885 --> 00:59:03.875 Or, I worked really hard and the thing I wanted happened. 00:59:04.355 --> 00:59:12.065 And that's because I, I worked really hard and it's really empowering to just take away expectations and say, I'm not expecting anything. 00:59:13.145 --> 00:59:15.635 I don't expect anything from my relationships with people. 00:59:15.875 --> 00:59:19.115 I don't expect anything when I invest in something. 00:59:19.145 --> 00:59:22.325 I don't expect anything when, when I do anything. 00:59:23.075 --> 00:59:24.065 still a work in progress. 00:59:24.065 --> 00:59:31.145 That's not like a hundred percent perfect in that, but as I've taken away expectations, it has helped me a ton. 00:59:31.445 --> 00:59:33.905 And so I would start right now this week. 00:59:34.685 --> 00:59:43.025 What is something that you have an expectation of someone else or something, and you can just get rid of that and reframe that so that it's not an expectation. 00:59:43.025 --> 00:59:45.545 This is a standard, this is how we operate. 00:59:45.845 --> 00:59:49.895 Uh, it's not a, an expectation that someone does a certain thing. 00:59:50.225 --> 00:59:54.155 It is an agreement or it is a goal that we do this. 00:59:54.485 --> 00:59:56.795 That really changes your perception on things. 00:59:56.795 --> 01:00:04.565 And so I would say find one thing, take away the expectation, and then send me a message and say, this is what I'm taking away the expectation on. 01:00:04.565 --> 01:00:15.875 And then let's talk about how to improve that and, and help you with that, because that is, that is a really empowering, freeing thing that takes so much weight off your shoulders. 01:00:19.935 --> 01:00:23.775 Jethro, thank you for being, uh, my guest on your podcast. 01:00:23.835 --> 01:00:29.415 Um, it's been a wonderful conversation as, uh, as I hoped it would be. 01:00:29.415 --> 01:00:40.545 So thanks and congratulations on your 13 or 12 years running this podcast and on your new endeavor, um, going into the next few months. 01:00:40.545 --> 01:00:48.435 And, and so I'm excited for you and, and, uh, and excited for Life Lab, um, and where they're heading as well. 01:00:48.495 --> 01:00:49.005 So thank you. 01:00:49.940 --> 01:00:52.520 Thank you and thanks for being here and interviewing me. 01:00:52.580 --> 01:00:57.980 This is always fun because, uh, I obviously, I love to talk, that's why I have a podcast. 01:00:57.980 --> 01:01:01.550 So it's good to to have the tables turned and I appreciate you. 01:01:01.550 --> 01:01:04.910 You did a great job and, and maybe you should come do this more often. 01:01:05.279 --> 01:01:05.909 Sounds fun.