Welcome to Transformative Principal, where I help you stop putting out fires and start leading.
I'm your host, Jethro Jones.
You can follow me on Twitter at Jethro Jones.
Okay.
Welcome everybody to Transformative Principal.
I'm your host, Jethro Jones.
You can find me on all the social networks at Jethro Jones.
Today we're doing one of the fun things that I like to do, which is have somebody come on and interview me about what's going on in my life and what I'm doing.
And so I'm excited to have Mike Caldwell on the show today, and he was just barely on the podcast talking about Link to leaders.
And so he is here and he's going to be interviewing me.
So Mike, welcome.
Thank you.
I will turn it over to you.
Let's go.
Let's do it.
Awesome.
Uh, well, I'm excited about this.
When I sh brought this to you, I don't know, a month or so ago, we, we've been talking about it and, uh, I was excited to do this and, uh, I was glad you said yes, and I know it's not a new thing for you.
Um, and I've done my own podcast in a very small way, and so it's not completely foreign to me, but a little bit intimidating yet the, the Transformative Principal Podcast has been going a long time and, and you're the guru of podcasting.
So, um.
Let's just start there.
Let's, let's talk about your journey as a podcaster.
There's so many different layers of Jethro to of, of that, but I think that's, let's start there.
That's how we met.
I guess.
You were somebody, somebody, you know, a mutual friend Craig Randall introduced us and a little over a year ago, I think sometime in November of last year.
And so I've got to know you really, you know, just over the last year.
Um, but your podcasting guru, let's talk about your journey.
Yeah, I mean, uh, if people have been around for a long time, they, they know this.
But I started as an assistant principal in a district where I was not getting the training that I wanted, um, to be a better
System.
And I, I wanted to be a principal that really.
a difference and made big changes.
And so, my district wasn't doing that.
I didn't feel like they were doing an adequate job.
So I said, I am gonna go interview other people and, and then I'm just gonna share their stories.
And this is literally how I've used the podcast for the whole entire time.
I have a problem and I go find somebody who is smarter than me or has done it, and I get their answer to whatever that problem is.
And so if you go listen to every episode that I've done, brought the problems that I've currently been facing and ask them how to solve them.
And I don't set it up like that.
I'm not like, Hey, here's the problem I'm facing.
I have this teacher who's doing this thing or this student who's doing this thing.
I just found people who could answer my questions.
And then I asked them they would do, how they would solve these problems, and, and then they shared it.
And so I called this learning and dog years.
For the last, uh, 13 years.
Um, not missing a week, recording something every single week or publishing something every, every single week I should say, because I do batch it and take some breaks occasionally throughout the year.
But this has just been so incredibly awesome to have access to people that I wouldn't typically have access to, to have conversations with people that I wouldn't typically have conversations with.
And to not only talk to big time amazing people, but also talk to, uh, less well-known people who are just doing awesome work in schools.
And that is, is probably one of the best things that I've been able to do, is find people who are doing something really cool and share their story and have them help me solve my problems.
Uh, it's just, it's been awesome.
I imagine when you started, you didn't, well, I don't know, maybe you did, but did you envision doing it for this long and this consistent or did you just start and this is where you are?
Um.
No, as, as a matter of fact, I was so nervous in the beginning that I wouldn't get multiple people on the show, that I did my first few interviews and I split the interviews in half, so I'd have enough content to still release stuff.
And so it's mind boggling to me now that I am turning away more people than I am seeking at this point.
Uh, which is totally fascinating to me because, um, I probably get.
20 to 30 emails a week saying, I want to be on your show.
And I just, I reject almost all of them because, uh, again, I'm looking for solutions to the problems that I'm facing, not looking for people who can solve, uh, problems that I'm not facing, you know?
And so I've been very selfish in that regard.
Um, but it's paid off because people listen to the show and have, and there are people who, is literally someone listening to this right now, Mike, this is crazy, who has listened to almost every single episode that I've released and waits for it to come out and has never talked to me or interacted with me in any other way.
And they probably feel like they know me better than I know myself.
And they might.
if that is you and you're listening, you haven't reached out, you should just reach out and say hi, because I'd love to chat with you.
Yeah.
That's crazy.
Um, and that's probably kept, kept things fresh too.
If you're, if you're coming to it like, hey, it's another weekly conversation, um, to talk about, you know, what's on my mind in terms of current challenge and you're, you're reaching out to, you know, you're, you're, you've lined up somebody that you feel can kinda lean into that, that's probably kept it fresh as opposed to say, thinking about it in a way that, well, I have to do this because, you know, it's, I'm trying to make a business out of it, or I'm trying to use it for marketing or whatever else.
It's like, you're using it, I wanna say for selfish reasons, but that's, that's, you know, tongue in cheek.
Um, but that's probably kept it fresh.
And because it's personal.
It's, it's kept it fresh, but it's also kept it relevant.
And even as I left being a principal and still continue to do the podcast for the last five years, um, I haven't been in a school for five years as a leader, but I've been coaching principals and I ask questions that will help me solve their problems too.
And so, uh, that has been really beneficial also.
So I'm very grateful for that opportunity too.
Um, it, also.
A a lot of people come to me now and ask about starting a podcast and they want to use it to grow their business.
And I always tell them that you can do that.
And I certainly have because I'm full-time not working, uh, in a school because I started this podcast in 2013, it took seven full years of producing content every single week to get to the point where I could leave the school and feel comfortable about that.
And to be honest, I probably could have done it sooner.
Um, but I, I wasn't quite ready yet.
And I, and I know that my, my skills and income level were not there yet either.
So I, when people ask about that, like what's the return on investment for this?
Um, it's really hard to quantify because it's not like the podcast itself has led to all of this business, but the business would not have existed without the podcast.
Does that make sense?
Yeah.
Totally does.
So a couple more questions just, you know, I'm just curious about, if you think back the last, um, 12 years, did I get my math right?
You started in 2013?
yep, that's right.
In fact, 12 years ago, right around December.
So it, uh, that's, that's the other amazing thing is it, it, I started it in December and, and there's a whole other story there.
I won't go into all of it, but just, there's never a right time to do it.
Just do it.
Like December was a really bad time to start a podcast because everybody's going on break.
Nobody's thinking about this kind of stuff, but I was like, I'm just gonna do it.
And, there you go.
You just do it.
And that, that's what really matters, is just take an action.
Just do it.
That's a, that's catchy, that's a catchy, uh, slogan.
There's some, some, some companies should pick that up.
I like it.
Just do it.
Um, that would be, maybe they could sell shoes or something.
I don't know.
Um, where was I going?
I got distracted on that.
Uh.
I am sorry.
You could probably sell anything with just Do it.
There, there's a lot of opportunity there.
Um, if you think back the last 12 years, is there particular guests that like, or, or conversation that, and that's a tough one, I would imagine, but that really sticks out.
And you don't have to include my recent podcast on Link leaders.
I, I'm gonna assume that that's one of the top, so you can just skip that one, but.
Saving the best for last for, you know, 12 years and one of my latest ones is the best one.
Um, the cool thing is, is that every time I finish a podcast, uh, I'll, I'll finish, go get a drink, go to the bathroom, all that stuff, and I'll see my wife and I'll be like, man, that was such a good interview.
That was awesome.
And that is literally still the case, which is just amazing.
And.
And on that note, the things that I think I'm gonna get out of a podcast episode are not always the things that I actually get.
Like, there's so much more that I'm like, oh, that really resonates with me.
So, um, it, I looked at my podcast feed this morning.
There are 827, uh, items in my podcast feed.
Uh, there are about 700 actual episodes, but then I would do some, some specials, some some off week things and, and whatever, and a few short ones in there.
So I have over 800 things that I've produced on this podcast feed, which is, which is quite a lot when you think about it.
And to be honest, it's impossible to even remember that many people.
And what I really wish is that I had a. Still had a personal connection with each one of those people, even though I feel like I probably could reach out to any of 'em and, and get some, some conversation with them.
But there are a few that have really made an impact and so I won't go through everything, but, uh, I'll try to talk in themes.
Uh, so there was.
with, uh, my assistant principal Dam Hargraves, who I've, whom I've had on a lot of times.
he, he was like the best coworker I've ever had, and I just love him to death.
He is such a stellar human being and I'm so grateful that I got to work with him when he really should have been the principal at the school that I became the principal of.
Um, and he is just a humble, amazing guy that, uh, that I just think the world of.
But when we did an episode, episode, I believe it was 100, um, we talked about RTI in our school and what we were doing, and I just remember that was so much fun.
And that is probably the episode I send to people most often because we were doing some really amazing things and we described it really well and I attribute that to him being so awesome.
another one that was really amazing was around that time was,
I wanna jump in there, but that's really cool.
So right now you have one episode, 100 in your, in your catalog of past to episodes.
So if somebody's right now going.
I'm kind of trying to figure out our RRTI model and I'm struggling with that.
Boom.
There is some content right now that's available to them that they can go and listen and
Yeah.
probably glean from.
Yes.
And, and that's the amazing thing is that, uh, part of what I've tried to do is make all of my interviews evergreen.
So I'm not like, here's what you should do this fall, because times are gonna change.
Of course, during COVID, I did a bunch of episodes around stuff about COVID, uh, which would've been crazy to not do that.
But almost all my other content is really focused on, any, any time period.
It is not just right.
Then it's relevant to anything, which, which I think is really, uh.
I, I'm so grateful I made that decision early on to not be focused on the here and now.
Even though my problems were always focused on what I was struggling with, then I tried to ask it in such a way that it wasn't like, uh, you know, how do I do this back to school thing?
Um, how do, but how do I make teachers feel welcome in a culture in a school, and what does that look like?
And that, that's been really valuable.
So the interview with Damon, that one i, I send out all the time.
Um, another one that was really great was the interview with Seth Godin, and that one was awesome because Seth, I've admired for a long time, and I, I will never forget talking to him on the phone about the podcast interview where I emailed him outta the blue and said, Hey, here's what.
I I'm doing, would you be interested in coming on the show?
And he said, this sounds like a conversation that's better suited for a phone call.
Here's my phone number, gimme a call.
So I call him thinking I'm gonna get an assistant 'cause this guy's big time, or at least that's what it seemed like.
And he answers the phone and he is like, Hey, this is Seth.
And I was like, what?
This is, uh, uh, as I stammer.
But what was so powerful about that is that it taught me that I didn't have to, I, I could reach out to anybody and doesn't mean they'll say yes, but I don't have to be afraid about reaching out to people.
And that was really powerful.
And then our conversation was awesome.
And, uh, and he was such a generous person with his time and his thoughts and the things he said.
It was, it was just great.
Um, and then, the third one that I'll mention is the one about data dashboards.
Uh, with, with Rick Myers, I believe is his last name.
Sorry, Rick, uh, um, he, we talked about data dashboards and he shared what he's doing and I was just blown away with how cool it is, what he's doing and how, how complex his system is.
And yet he makes it so simple for his teachers, which is, which is awesome.
So he's got all the data in these Google sheets and he's just pulling everything together.
That one, I made a, uh, a video of it as well so people could see it and see his screen share, uh, share and everything.
That one was, was really fun and I loved getting really deep and nerdy into his processes and systems and all that kind of stuff.
'cause it was, it was awesome.
So there's three out of 829, uh, and there's a ton more that are really great.
Yeah.
I wanna go back to something, something you said, you know, when you, you talked about kinda walking away going, uh, that was just, you know, one of our best ones or great conversation or whatever else.
Um, as, as you know, you know, I did a, a one year podcast, um, you know, with, with a friend of mine, you know, uh, related to grief after, after losing my son and we just focused on kind of this series of conversation.
It was just a conversation with another dad, you know, and, and, and.
I don't know about you.
Sometimes when I went in with expectations of a podcast, like I was always blown away, or I would say expectations of a podcast, expectations of a conversation, like, we're gonna sit down and have this conversation.
On the other end of it, when I was done, it was like, I was like blown away at like what actually occurred versus what I maybe anticipated happening.
And that's the beauty I think in having those conversations in the podcast is like I, and I think sometimes it's better to let go of your expectations and just go into it with here's ano, here's, here's another awesome person that I'm gonna go talk to.
And where it goes, where is where it goes?
And you walk out of it, you just had an authentic conversation with somebody.
And there's so much value in that.
And then you're capturing that for other people to, to, to lean in and listen to.
And I think there's so much, so much to that that, uh, I've found personally rewarding.
And so that's, that resonated with me when you were saying that.
Well, and the other thing about that is, um.
It, I, somebody gave me the best compliment I have ever heard.
Uh, a couple weeks ago they said it sounded like I was just listening to two friends having a conversation.
And I was, I was basically at lunch with them while they were talking, and it just felt so natural.
And that's really what I strive for.
And so I always have questions and I always have ideas of what I want to ask, but then I really try hard to let the conversation go where it needs to.
And again, after doing with my other podcasts, well over a thousand different interviews at this point, um, that is, that is a skill that has to be worked on and honed and improved.
And you gotta be able to pick up on things that people hint at, but don't talk a lot about.
And you know, it just takes time and effort to hear the thing that's interesting and, and dig a little bit deeper.
And some of that you can do through intense preparation and, and that's cool.
Um, but.
But it's also really valuable when you can just do that with people that you don't know that much about, because there's not time to do eight hours of preparation for every podcast interview, um, and, and produce something every week.
Uh, and so you gotta, you gotta find a balance.
And a lot of people, when they talk to me about doing a podcast, they're like, I need to spend, you know, hours preparing for this.
And, you know, if you're gonna be prolific in what, how much you produce, then you've gotta, you've gotta find a balance.
And especially when at first, and for most people a long time, it's not gonna bring in the money.
Uh, then you can't be, quote unquote wasting time, uh, doing research for something that's, that's not gonna bring a, a result if that's what you really need it for.
Yeah.
Yeah, for sure.
Um, you started this at 13 years ago.
The technology was very different back then.
So what did you use originally for your podcast back then?
Was that like a Skype or something, or what?
Uh.
Uh, I've used Skype.
I, I found Zoom quickly and I used that, in fact, fun story.
Zoom was my very first sponsor.
Can you believe that?
Oh wow.
Yeah.
Isn't that crazy?
Uh, yeah.
They gave me a thousand dollars to do the Transformative Leadership Summit in 2016, and I, I reached out to them and I said, Hey, I'm using Zoom to record all these interviews.
Um, would you consider doing a, a sponsorship?
And they said, yep.
And they sent me a check.
And, and that was, that was pretty awesome.
Um, so I, I used Skype, uh, I used a webcam, uh, and a and a microphone for my first in-person interview 'cause I didn't really have anything else.
And it was so terrible.
It's still up there.
Sandra Jovi Motz.
You can go listen to how bad it was in the beginning.
Um, and there's still a lot of value, but the recording quality was terrible.
And now you and I are in different locations.
We're recording in script.
It's going to make an automatic transcript of this and then I'm gonna edit it.
Uh, like you edit a, a Word document, take out the things that I want to, and leave the things in that I, that I want to keep.
And, uh, yeah, it's, it's pretty amazing how times have changed.
It used to be really difficult to get good audio from both people.
I used to have to have people record on their end and send me a file.
that was tough, especially for principals who are not that tech savvy.
So, uh, this is much better.
You hit a link and we show up in the room and we start recording and it's very, very simple at this point.
It's pretty unreal.
When I was, when I left as an assistant principal, I took a job as the direct one of the directors for the Idaho Digital Learning Academy here in Idaho.
And one of my early like initiatives was to help connect, you know, different organizations, agencies with, with a virtual live platform.
And we had, we used this a platform that, I think it was connected maybe to Blackboard or, or something called wiba.
Um,
I've used that.
you have,
Yeah.
and so my, in my first year or so, I was, I was training like, you know.
State government officials or whatever else on how to use that platform so that they could do meetings virtually.
This is back in what, 2008 or something like that?
Um, and it was, it's just kind of funny that that even required training one back then.
Right.
And the technology was somewhat foreign.
Like it was moving from the conference calls to, um, where you could actually see each other.
And, and that was new technology back then.
So just think about how much it's, it's progressed and where we're at today and, and everything.
It's just in, uh, insane.
Okay.
So related to technology, have you ever heard of this new thing called artificial intelligence?
Sometimes people call it ai.
It's
As a matter of fact, I have,
okay.
I was, I wasn't sure if you, you had or not.
Um, the newest thing.
No, just kidding.
Um, I know that this is a big part of, of, of your.
You know, work right now and, and, uh, I know you're doing a, a dissertation that's keeping you very busy.
Um, I dunno where you wanna go first.
Um, let's first talk about your dissertation.
We'll come back to AI because we could probably spend hours just talking about tools and craziness of ai.
But tell, talk a little bit about your dissertation.
What do you, what are you focused on?
Where are you at in your process?
Um, yeah.
Yeah, so, uh, exciting news.
The, the, the dissertation is, is done.
I still have to defend it, but I finished writing all the chapters and I've submitted to my professor for review, and he's gonna come back and say, you did this terribly.
You need to rewrite it.
Which is fine.
That's part of the process.
Um, he already said about one chapter recently, so that's, that's all part of it and not a big deal.
But that is just the process you have to go through.
Um, and, and this is when I, when I, I've always wanted to get a doctorate and I've avoided it for a long time because things, I really am frustrated with the education system and going through this process right now.
The frustration is very real.
It is so archaic.
It is so old.
It is so like, difficult to do the things that you need to do.
Um, and it is, it is so much about gatekeeping and saying, you, we are the ones who are in charge and you're not.
And it's really fascinating because the idea of being a. Of getting a doctorate is that you become a peer scholar with the professors and whatnot.
And uh, and it's a really fascinating transition to move from a student to being a scholar with someone else.
And a lot of people have a really hard time, one with becoming the scholar, and then a lot of people who are the scholars have a really hard time letting people into their clique or their group.
And this is just a really fascinating thing that, that I have seen up close and personal as I've been going through this and, and it's so fascinating.
Um, but the thing about how AI works into this is that, um, my.
My dissertation is on how principals can use AI for innovation.
And, and so I did a training that you were at in Wyoming and taught people about how they could use it for innovation.
And it's been really cool to see as I've done a presentation like that many times, uh, this doctorate is a, is a dissertation and practice, which means that I, presentation was part of the, the, the dissertation as a whole.
And it's been really interesting to see how people respond to that, how I set the training up intentionally to have people experience different things as they were going through it and how that has, uh, that, that worked out.
And that's, that's what people did experience.
And my idea was right, that I could get people to feel.
Excitement and frustration about it, and that I could force them into the frustration, but then have them leaving feeling positive about the future, which is not always an easy thing to do.
And, and I'll briefly explain how that works.
When, when you're working with ai, it's really easy to think AI can do anything because it can.
And it says that it can.
But the real challenge comes when you try to get it to do something really specific that solves a problem that you actually need help solving.
And if the problem is complex enough, then it can be very frustrating as you try to get it to do what you need it to.
So, for example, in very simple terms, let's say that you want AI to write a letter and you want it to use very specific verbiage, um, in that letter and.
Like, it's very difficult to get AI to use that very specific verbiage and to use the tone of voice that you would use and, and all that stuff.
So that's a real challenge and that's a very simple example that AI can totally do.
But when you take it to the next level, make it more complex than that.
And you say, for example, I want to create an app that teaches digital citizenship to our students.
that so they can go through and play a game to learn how to be good digital citizens.
That's way more complex, but it's not beyond the realm of possibility, it requires a lot more work to make it happen, and it requires a lot more focus and understanding the problem, what it is and understanding how it can, AI can actually help in that situation because it's not always clear how, how that works.
So.
That's what my, uh, dissertation was about, was how to use it for innovation and create new things instead of just, uh, doing the same old things we've always done.
One of the key points of that presentation was asking the participants there, should you actually be doing this thing that you're trying to get AI to do?
If AI can write a newsletter for you, do you actually need to write the newsletter?
Maybe that's something that you don't even need to do.
And as I read things and I see, and I can tell that they're written by ai, I often zone out and don't pay any attention to it because you can tell when somebody puts their heart and soul into something and when somebody just tries to do it in the fastest way possible.
And there is a difference.
And so that's part of what I'm trying to understand in this new world of AI that we're living in, of, of how, when do we use it and when is it beneficial and when is it actually a detriment to what we're doing?
And so there's, there's a brief overview of something that I could, like you said, go on for hours about.
Let's zero in on the innovation part of education and how AI can play a part in this.
When you talk about the innovation, um, I think what you're talking about is, is that education really feels and looks different because you're leveraging ai.
It's not just making things more efficient in the current model, right?
That's not innovation, that's just efficiency.
So.
Do you have a, either, you know, a specific example of, of how that's being done right now in practice?
Or is it just theory right now?
Well, I, I do think that there is some practice and I want to talk to people who are doing it.
So if you're listening and you're like, yeah, we're doing that, then let me know.
Um, I, I did something very different when I was principal in Fairbanks of, we created this time called Synergy, and we took it out of the classroom, out of the content classroom, I should say.
So a math teacher wasn't in a math classroom when this was happening.
She was just an adult supervising a group of kids.
And the things that the kids were able to do from this Synergy program was truly amazing.
And we measured one group and looked at the, the, the standards that they passed off.
And this group of seventh grade girls was passing off standards all the way up through 12th grade, and even passing off some standards beyond 12th grade adult life skills that we don't even bother teaching in school.
I can only imagine how much better their growth and development would have been if they had AI as a tool back then, because all we had was automation and early steps in, machine learning.
So there wasn't a lot there that was, that was happening.
But now the, the, the theoretical part that I am harping on constantly is we, we have to change how we do, uh, schoolwork.
It has to go from being assignment based to process based.
And the way that it works in school right now is you, you get an assignment, you do the assignment, you turn it in, and the whole point.
From a student's perspective is to get the assignment done and get it turned in so they can get a grade.
And in my mind, if I were to recreate schools right now, what I would say is you're not allowed to give any assignments.
You're not allowed to give any tests and those completely out and instead focus on the process that kids are going through to learn things and actually do something that is worthwhile and meaningful.
That's exactly the approach that we took with Synergy in Fairbanks, and it was incredible and kids are totally capable of it.
our system is designed to make everything easy for the teachers and the adults in the building.
Our system is not designed to increase learning.
The only way that it is designed to increase learning is when we are talking about very specific, uh, what they call primary biological knowledge, which is stuff that you can say.
Here, there's a right answer and a wrong answer.
And, and here it is.
Simple edition math, uh, learning how to read those kinds of things.
Learning how to read, super important.
We know how to do it, and yet there are tons of kids who aren't there with their reading scores yet.
a real issue.
But once they can read, then you have to switch, in my opinion, immediately to start working on projects and learn through the projects and keep track of the learning through the projects.
'cause it's not about finishing or accomplish anything, but that's all that our current system is focused on.
It's about the process of learning as you're going through whatever you're trying to accomplish.
And failure is absolutely okay in that situation, but failure is not okay in our current system.
Let me, um.
Let me talk through some things that come to mind when you're, you're saying that, that I think listeners, including myself, um, might challenge the theory of what you're saying with the practicality.
Um, I wanna start with accountability on the student, student side sometime, and I'm not just saying I'm not, I'm not gonna say this is the right way or whatever else right now, but I want to, I wanna just put this on the table, that when you talk about assignments and assessments, um, in some ways those are accountability measures that the student is held to, to, um, that they're, that they're, yeah.
That they're measured on, on in terms of their accountability for, for learning and also for their effort.
Right.
Um, what are you, are you saying that that goes away and if so.
What replaces, if anything, the accountability that for, for the students.
Well, and this, this brings up the point of why do we need students to be accountable?
What are they accountable to?
And we don't have a good answer for that because the accountability is, are you doing what I say you need to be doing In our current system?
really what it is.
love to learn.
Every human being loves to learn.
We thrive on it.
We, we feel so good about every opportunity that we have to learn.
when they are hard.
We go back through any experience in our life that taught us anything that is worthwhile and we are like, really sucked.
I'm glad that I learned what I learned from it, even though I never want to go through that again.
We can still learn something.
Balance that.
Agree.
Everyone loves to learn, but sometimes including myself and especially, you know, kids, they would love to just sleep in all day instead.
Or they would love to just scroll through on their phone, you know, or they would just like to sit on the couch and eat Cheetos.
And I'm not just saying that for Stu, for, for, for adolescents.
I'm saying humans
Yes,
love comfort, right?
And do what's comfortable.
And sometimes the accountability is pushing you either by mandate or expectation or whatever else, pushing you out of comfort to accountability that forces you in some ways to be a learner.
Yeah.
Because also we've designed our system based on that, right?
So we have these accountability measures in place to ensure that our kids are learning because we have to show that they're learning because if we don't, then somebody's going to get upset.
I had someone, uh, in, I was talking to a group of principals and one of was like talking about parents who aren't engaged in their kids' lives and how there's no accountability for parents.
And I was like, are you kidding me?
There is definitely accountability for parents if you have a 30-year-old kid.
on your couch, living in your basement because you did not train them up in how to live their own life, and they're still dependent on you for everything.
That's some pretty harsh accountability.
reality is, is that these accountability measures that we have in schools are, are made up and fake get to the point where we can force kids to do what we need them to do.
that's the system that we've designed.
I, it is what it is.
So what I'm proposing is that if we had a different system and we said, instead of forcing kids to do this accountability thing, we found things that they were interested in, gave them opportunities to pursue learning in the areas that they're interested in, then that would open up a lot of opportunities for them.
Now, I did this with my whole school of 500 kids.
And were there kids who were not interested, who flitted around from group to group and could not find anything and appeared from our perspective that they weren't doing anything and weren't being productive.
And weren't contributing, and weren't learning.
Yes, those kids did exist, but first and foremost, it was like 10 kids out of 500.
else was like, I can get on board with this and let's do something cool.
So those 10 kids we needed to focus on and help provide additional support, and they needed some sort of external accountability to help them, that is the exception rather than the rule.
We can unlock our students' potential in amazing ways.
And the reason why nobody believes that that is possible is because all they've experienced is kids are required to do this.
This is accountability to make sure they do what we want them to do.
When if they took the other approach and just tried it, then they would see that kids actually do want to learn, do want to be engaged in interesting things, and that could even relate to the content that you're trying to teach them.
What that also necessitates is that there are some things that kids are not going to learn all at the same time, and that is super uncomfortable for us as educators because we look at that and we think, oh, if they, if, if this kid is not learning this thing by this time, then they're going to be quote unquote behind.
But that's another misnomer that we have in education.
There's no such thing as you being behind.
In your own learning process, you are only where you are at.
You can't be behind because if, if you could be behind, then that would be your normal.
So it's, it's this artificial thing that is created that wherever you are at personally your pathway.
And it's okay for us each to have our own pathway, but the way the system is designed, we are not interested in each kid having their own pathway.
We're interested in them all going at the same pace, in the same way, in the same direction, getting the same things.
There's part of me that wants to
agree with this theory and there's so much of my, that just wants to say chest row, that's a bunch of bull beep.
There's my practical side that's been in the school leadership side, and that's, that also has, you know, my, you know, has been in the classroom, has been the, you know, all the stuff has, has had my own kids and then, and then the other side that's like, yeah, that sounds theoretically all wonderful.
Um, but you're still dealing with human nature and sometimes, well, not, sometimes humans need.
Structure to thrive within, uh,
Go ahead.
need structure and also accountability to, to produce and to, to reach for what they're capable of.
And to say that, um, how did you say it?
Um, learning at your own pace kind of goes out, or, or, uh, being behind is, is irrelevant.
Totally disagree with that.
Like, you're not gonna have a, a 15-year-old sitting in a first grade desk,
And that's not what I'm talking about though,
but, but pace does matter, right?
I mean, yes, everyone learns differently, but, um, learning at a, at a, at a progression, a a certain progression should.
Should play into this, that it's not just kind of a free form, that if it takes you five years to learn how to read versus five months.
I mean, I don't know if that's realistic either.
Oh, uh, and that's not what I'm saying at all, to be clear.
So a couple things.
Structure does matter and it helps us.
Entropy is very real and we all would prefer to just sit on the couch and not do anything.
And so we create accountability and structure in different ways, is what I'm suggesting.
current accountability is do this or get a bad grade, and that obviously it works.
Also not for everybody.
we're okay with those failures because we're okay with writing those kids off.
And every educator hates it when I say that.
But the reality is we are okay with writing some kids off, and we do things to show that we are okay with that.
Now, none of us wants to be the one to say that we, we believe that.
But the way our system is set up, we do that.
When I was principal of the homeschool program in Alaska, is how te uh, principals and other schools showed that they were okay with failure.
would say, this kid looks like they're gonna drop out.
We should transfer them to the homeschool program that will work for them.
A kid who's not engaged doesn't care.
Do you think they're gonna go to a homeschool program that's set up like school, but you're, you're supposed to do it all on your own, that you think that's gonna work?
No, it's definitely not gonna work.
And they would send them to us one, and I don't think they were malicious in, in their intent about this, but this is a natural consequence of the accountability systems in place.
didn't want that kid to count against their graduation rate because we paid attention to that.
And if that kid wasn't enrolled in their school, them not graduating on time was not a problem because it didn't show up on their school's data.
And so we make little decisions like that unintentionally.
I think, not because we are malicious people, but we work within the accountability structures that we have.
And so the thing is, is that in the system that I'm proposing, students learn way faster.
So it's not about a kid taking forever to learn something.
You would find the structure and accountability to help that kid do learn what they need to learn because you'd be focused on that individual kid and what they need, not whether or not they are working in the system that you already have developed and, and that's a key difference.
Okay, so, so this is getting to a little bit in my mind on the whole school choice, um, discussion, right?
Um, I want to start here by saying, you know, or asking really, like, are you, are you saying that this theoretical system that you're, you're kind of describing is the right solution for all or for some.
So, uh, what I'm saying is that it should be the first choice.
If somebody is really struggling or needs something special, then we can do a different accountability or learning system that works for them.
For example, my oldest daughter has Down syndrome.
She has very different needs than other kids.
We have to recognize that each kid is individual and unique and we need to set them up for the most amount of success regardless of what their specific challenges, weaknesses, strengths, whatever may be.
to me is the key.
That's where we start them opportunities to do things that are interesting to them, that they will be, uh, self or intrinsically motivated to accomplish, makes a huge difference in what they're doing and what they want to spend their time doing.
that then creates their own accountability.
That's way more powerful than you have to do this because I said.
we have kids who struggle with homelessness, with other disabilities, with anxiety, with, uh, Tourette syndrome, whatever the case is, need to adapt to meet their needs and help them be successful.
And that may mean have an assignment and it is due at this time, and you have to do this.
may be what that person needs, but the first thing should be let's find something that you are interested in that you can put your heart into that and, and if it changes every six months, that's totally okay too.
But that's also part that's frustrating for educators because they want it to be this nice little box that fits into this specific time period.
They don't want kids change their mind every six weeks, but that's okay if they do too, because they're still trying to figure out what does interest them.
And it's okay because it's not like they're missing anything by moving from project to project.
They are experiencing and learning and we need to recognize and appreciate that learning as well.
Yeah, I, I, I hear what you're saying and I think where, where, what I, what I like is the idea of, for.
For, you know, maybe it's a large percentage of students.
The, the model you're describing where there is choice in path and pace and, and, and project, et cetera and so forth, can help a student really thrive and get into their kind of flow zone.
While other students might really struggle in that, and it might be just the opposite for them, that they need more structure.
So I think I, you know, that it's not where this whole conversation was meant, you know, like the, this is school choice kind of focus.
But that is where there's some advantages when you're in a place where there is options because what one model might be to your detriment, where for other students it might be where you thrive.
And having, having options is great.
And unfortunately there's not a lot in some way.
Some, some places where there are a lot of options.
So, um.
So let me, let me add just one more thing to this.
If, if this is the way that we are approaching it and we go back to this idea of kids not being behind or ahead, 'cause they're only behind and ahead.
When we compare them to others in their own learning journey, there is only one direction and that is forward.
And even when they don't learn what we think they should learn, they're still learning something.
And, and we have to take this more comprehensive view of what learning is, that it's not just the things we grade on in school, but it's who they are developing into as a person that matters tremendously.
And that needs to be accounted for and included in this because that is an important part of, of who they become.
So there's a great Martin Luther, Martin Luther King Jr. Quote that.
Character education.
Teaching them the kind of people we, we want them to become is so important because it doesn't matter how smart you are, if you are a terrible person you are, uh, that's not good.
So we want to teach them to be good people as well.
And the best way to teach those things is for them to experience these things and do different projects and things that they're interested in so that they can see what happens when something they really care about is threatened or is successful or is sabotaged or is helped to be even better than it could have been.
Our limited focus on reading and math and test scores and assignments this, this singular focus on things that nobody remembers later.
But if we expand our vision of learning to be other things, then every.
Interaction becomes a learning opportunity where somebody can learn something that may be academic, but most likely that will be about human nature, about who they are and about who they want to become.
That will be beneficial to them in the long run.
And again, we are only looking at academics, then yes, a kid could be behind where we expect them to be or where their peers are.
But again, in their own learning journey, holistically, they cannot possibly be behind because they, they are where they are at.
And if it's not where we want them to be and not where they want to be, then we can take action to improve that.
And if they are farther ahead than where we would expect them to be, then we can celebrate and continue on and help them do that even more.
Ezra, have you ever started an interview expecting it to go one way, only to have it transform into something totally different?
Every single time.
That is the beauty of this.
Awesome.
I mean, I could just, I could just keep digging into un unlayering the onion here and just going, going deeper.
Uh, but I'm also conscious of, of the time, uh, for this, for this conversation.
Um, I love it.
I think we should have more discussion on that, maybe offline.
Um, so I like a lot of things you're saying.
I would challenge some of them in theory.
So, um, I'm waving at you.
Hello visitors.
Um, so let's, I'm gonna, I'm gonna shift a little bit, um, as you think about your next.
Chapter and kind of where you're going from, from, from here.
You spent a decade plus on this, on this podcast obviously are working on your, your dissertation, which sounds like it's starting to wrap up and take shape and moving in the right direction of where you want it to be.
Um, what's next for you and, and, and how do you see Jethro in the future?
J Jethro 3.0 or 4.0?
I don't know what, where you are at right now.
Yeah.
Um, I will call it, uh, let's see, how old am I?
I'll call it 44.2.
It's where I'm at because, uh, like I said, I have this holistic view of people and how they learn and who they are.
And so that, that version starts at 0.0 when you're born and it just grows every single day and every single year for your whole life.
So, um, so definitely not way past version 2.0 and 3.0.
So, um, so here, I I am really excited about my own personal next step.
Um, I've had a lot of career changes and done a lot of different things and, uh, I just, uh, am gonna start, well, I just accepted a job with a company called Life Lab and uh, it's with my friend Jeff Becker, whom I've known for, uh, about eight years, and he does.
Uh, life skills curriculum, video curriculum for schools, and I will be helping him with that.
Uh, it helping with everything, the, the whole business, which I'm really excited about because based on what we've talked about this whole time, truly is the education to me that matters.
This book's stuff, the academic part.
Anybody can learn anything at any time.
And, and there, to me, there's no hurry on that except being able to read.
Because once you can read, you can do everything else.
So that should be the priority.
But all these other things are really vastly more important.
And, and what I love about this company Life Lab is that they have zero prep teacher lessons.
So the thing that every teacher loves an interview, what do they say?
Why'd they go into teaching?
It's so they could see the light bulb go off in the kids' eyes, right?
And, and the way that you have those experiences is not by designing this really amazing lesson and, and delivering it.
So the kids are like, oh, wow, that was amazing because one, that almost never happens because they don't ever want to learn that stuff in the first place.
what, when it really happens is when you can have these informal conversations about what kids are learning about themselves and the people around them, where it's really powerful.
And this curriculum sets you up to do just that.
You watch a video with the kids and then you have time to chat with them about what they learn from it.
So if you're talking about growth mindset, or you're talking about fixed mindset, or you're talking about, um, how to calculate your GPA or whatever, like how to get a credit card, all these different things.
When, when kids have an opportunity to talk about that with an adult, that's when the real light bulbs go off, because those are the things that really matter to them.
And Jeff has done an amazing job of creating these very engaging, uh, interactive videos where the teacher basically just shows it and then we talk about it.
And that is what every teacher wants to be able to do.
No teacher wants to give a prepared PowerPoint about some academic or non-academic skill.
And then be stuck to that.
They want to have the free flowing open conversations.
And that's exactly what this does, which I am, I am super excited about.
So Jeff's been doing this for a long time and he is expanding and growing and needs some extra help.
And, uh, and I have some skills that are gonna be really beneficial to him.
And I have a lot to learn in that area also.
So I'm really excited and if you're interested in that, discover life lab.com.
Go check it out and, and say hello when I send you an email later.
First, congratulations.
That's exciting for you.
Um, and, and exciting for Jeff to, to get, to bring you on, on board.
Um, and I, you know, some skills Jeff throw, you have a lot of skills and a lot to bring to the table, so he's super fortunate to, to snag you and to bring you on board.
I love the name.
Um, discover Life Lab.
The Life Lab idea and kind of what, what you are focused on.
Huge opportunity there and, uh, what a great resource for educators.
So, um, and tell, tell me a little bit about what you're gonna be doing.
It sounds like kinda like ops type stuff, at least initially, initially.
Yeah, so I've actually spent the last month just working, uh, on a contract basis with him to one, see if we're a good fit and we like working together.
And two, to see what kind of skills I gravitate towards, which, what a brilliant way to bring someone on to, uh, to anything.
And I got a whole theory of how we should onboard teachers in schools also, but, um, but that, that is part of it, that you give people an opportunity to, to test the waters and see how it works.
Um, but the operations stuff of figuring out, um, automations to make things work better, we are very, uh, focused company as we should be.
And so using AI in a way that the human connection and doesn't, um, take away from it, which is something that Jeff and I have talked about before and super important.
Um, but doing all, all the things to make it easy for a. a school to adopt this and, and put it into, into practice with their, with their school, and, you know, provide training for the teachers so they know how to do it.
Um, there's a whole bunch of stuff around that, but there's, most people don't understand all the things that go into, uh, running a business in a successful way.
And not just like having money come in and, and limiting expenses, but also what kinds of things you have to do to make it a good experience for someone.
And so all, all the, all the little things that go on in the background, that's where I'm gonna be focusing.
And that's a, that's a different kind of position for me, but that is the only way that I've been able to make my own business work, is by having all these systems and processes in place so that I can, as we talked about before, so that I can be lazy do as little work as possible, because that's really what I want to do too.
And so.
Just kidding.
Yep.
And I, I don't disagree with you on that at all.
So that
about the Chino?
what's that?
Eat.
What about the Cheetos?
Eating the Cheetos on the couch or just being lazy?
Cheetos are good too.
Uh, my daughter's into talks right now, so
Little, little messy.
Alright, keep going.
Carry on.
Yeah.
So, you know, doing all these things in the background that need to happen, that is, that's, that's what I'm trying to do, is to make it as easy as possible for the company and for the schools to get started and have this working and make it as easy as possible for everybody involved.
Awesome, awesome.
All right.
If you could give one message directly to every school leader listening right now, or whoever listening right now, um, what would you wanna say?
You know, I, I think it's this, the, the question I ask at every, at the end of every show is, what should a principal do this week to be a Transformative Principal like you?
And.
Yeah, this goes to you as a person.
You cannot predict the future, you can put things in place to make the future you want a little bit more likely.
And, and that doesn't mean that you can, you can do anything to, to make that perfect and have it be exactly what you want.
And what I really strive to do with my own kids and in my own life is take away all expectations.
Don't have any expectations for anyone or anything.
You can set goals.
You can have standards, but don't worry about expectations.
And this is a really moment to to, to take that expectation off and not have it because you just can't control it.
So you can have standards and say, I'm going to do these specific things, and this is a standard that I live by.
You can have goals and say, I'm going to try to achieve this thing.
And that's all well and good, but when it becomes an expectation, then it, it, it reacts differently in your life.
And when you don't get it, you feel disappointed because you didn't get it.
but when it's a goal, it's different.
'cause if you don't reach your goal, then you're like, oh, I worked really hard and I, and it didn't happen and it's outta my control and that's okay.
Or, I worked really hard and the thing I wanted happened.
And that's because I, I worked really hard and it's really empowering to just take away expectations and say, I'm not expecting anything.
I don't expect anything from my relationships with people.
I don't expect anything when I invest in something.
I don't expect anything when, when I do anything.
still a work in progress.
That's not like a hundred percent perfect in that, but as I've taken away expectations, it has helped me a ton.
And so I would start right now this week.
What is something that you have an expectation of someone else or something, and you can just get rid of that and reframe that so that it's not an expectation.
This is a standard, this is how we operate.
Uh, it's not a, an expectation that someone does a certain thing.
It is an agreement or it is a goal that we do this.
That really changes your perception on things.
And so I would say find one thing, take away the expectation, and then send me a message and say, this is what I'm taking away the expectation on.
And then let's talk about how to improve that and, and help you with that, because that is, that is a really empowering, freeing thing that takes so much weight off your shoulders.
Jethro, thank you for being, uh, my guest on your podcast.
Um, it's been a wonderful conversation as, uh, as I hoped it would be.
So thanks and congratulations on your 13 or 12 years running this podcast and on your new endeavor, um, going into the next few months.
And, and so I'm excited for you and, and, uh, and excited for Life Lab, um, and where they're heading as well.
So thank you.
Thank you and thanks for being here and interviewing me.
This is always fun because, uh, I obviously, I love to talk, that's why I have a podcast.
So it's good to to have the tables turned and I appreciate you.
You did a great job and, and maybe you should come do this more often.
Sounds fun.