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Welcome to The Crucible, Conversations for the Curious.

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I am Hamish, your host.

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This podcast is for anyone going through awakenings, trying to make sense of life.

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Whether dark nights are the soul, needing to make life -changing decisions, struggling
with addiction or critical illness, or simply realizing that their life as they know it is

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not aligned to values and purpose.

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You are not alone.

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You can get through this, promise you.

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Life is far more beautiful on the other side.

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Good morning everybody and welcome to another episode of the Crucible Conversations for
the Curious.

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Today we've got Nick with us and Nick's got a wonderful story.

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Like me, he had a dance with the alcohol and things like that.

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And then he turned his life around and he's now doing amazing things, helping people with
all sorts of addictions, whether it's drugs or alcohol or all sorts of things.

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So Nick, thank you so much for turning up here today.

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Thank you.

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It's a pleasure.

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It's a pleasure.

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Can you tell me a little bit about your start with your dance with drugs and alcohol and
what really tipped you down that path of tumbling, tumbling, tumbling down?

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Yeah, well, I guess, I mean, when I work with people, I always ask the question, what
makes sense about this situation?

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You know, have people who doing things that objectively don't make sense, but there's
always a sense there.

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And when I discovered alcohol when I was about 14 or 15, it made sense, you know?

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It made sense to me.

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It made too much sense.

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I remember a kind of a real lightning moment of, know, you have that moment that all
children do in the experiment with alcohol.

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And it's normally down in the woods or somebody's house.

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were, there's a patch of woods near where myself and my friends lived.

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And somebody brought with them a bottle of cider.

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And everybody had a drink and I drank.

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And after everybody else had had a bit of a drink, somebody said, well, let's stop this
now.

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and let's go to somebody else and listen to some music.

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To which it seemed like an absolute madness that anybody would choose to do that.

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Anyone would choose to stop going further into this moment, this thing where this huge
sense of kind of wholeness came from.

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It's obviously the illusion of wholeness.

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but this powerful sense of almost liberation, liberation from this kind of rather
frustrating world I existed in where nothing really worked out and nothing really was any

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good, to this other space.

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was walking through a magic door for me.

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And I think everyone I know, all the people I know in recovery, all the people I've worked
with in recovery have a similar magic door story.

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And some people have had, you know, horrendous experiences and, you know, escape from that
makes makes perfect sense.

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And other people, they are just kind of like me.

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And maybe this is true of everybody, I'm trying not to do special and different here, but
kind of kind of square pegs in round holes, you know, that life

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when I was 15, I haven't been without its little traumas, you know, and certainly there
would be more to come.

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But the main issue was that I found myself in a world that didn't seem to have any kind of
accommodation for me at all.

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you're someone like me whose mind wanders all over the place and who...

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spends a great deal of their formative years off in some kind of strange dream world, then
the world is pretty merciless.

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And my experience of my teenage years was a kind of a this weird, slightly obscured, but
ever-present sort of brutalisation, you know.

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schools and things around you and the way families work and things like that.

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The whole of life seemed to be some kind of bat whacking you in one direction or another
and then alcohol.

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And alcohol in that moment I the moment I discovered it weaved a certain kind of magic
which was with me for the next 15 years.

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Yep.

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I love the way you phrase that and completely resonate with that.

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did something.

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It made sense.

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It helped me confidently.

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You know, I could dance, I could chat to girls, could actually avoid stuff that I didn't
understand.

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You know, it was a really successful coping mechanism.

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Yeah.

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Yeah, I mean, that's why people do it, isn't it?

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Because for a while, or a long while, it really works.

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What was it helping you avoid?

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I think it was that kind of shortcut to social functioning.

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think, you know, the awkwardness of being 15.

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I think when you're 50, it's hard to remember what that was like.

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My son is nine now and I kind of look at...

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on the next few years with a sense of wonder and joy, but also, God.

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But it's, you know, and you can edit this out, it's fucking embarrassing, it?

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It really is.

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That period of, you know, think Eric Erickson called it this, called it the psychosocial
moratorium, where we, in theory, give teenagers that time and space to become themselves.

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But I don't think that that actually exists.

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I think we, think it's hard.

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to go from that transition in that period between childhood and adulthood, things that
really difficult to navigate.

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And yet we create all these means to kind of evade that and perhaps the discomfort of
growing up and finding out who you are and becoming an adult, at least physically an

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adult, and maybe people aren't.

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actually adults now until they're about 45, I don't know, being able to have your first
sexual thoughts, for example, and navigate that complicated process to be able to continue

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with that, that the kind of...

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Because where you're at when you become a teenager depends awful lot on how socially you
developed as a child and, you know, were you good at making friends, good at playing with

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others, were you securing yourself?

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An awful lot of people when they hit a teenager is the answer is to no to all of those
things.

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So they have to figure it out and maybe they do and maybe they don't.

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And then they're spewed into the adult world and...

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No wonder addiction exists.

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I mean, honestly, why wouldn't it?

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I think that sort of answers, but yeah, it was a useful tool.

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And what did it help me escape?

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I think it helped me escape...

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kind of a world of not sort of expectations, because I didn't come from a family where
there were these kind of hard expectations, but a family where there was a kind of a

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suspicion of and a discouragement of the kind of the imaginary world.

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I spent my life as a writer, as a journalist, as a teacher and as a counselor.

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So I've lived in different ways in that world completely and utterly ever since I got my
first job.

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But for some reason within my family there was this great scepticism towards that, that
kind of whatever you want to call it.

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And found that really, really hard.

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Yeah, really, really, really, really hard.

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And alcohol was a place where you can sort of create that really.

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You can, you can sit in a pub and be in a dream world for hours and ends.

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Yeah.

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Yep.

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Makes a lot of sense, doesn't it?

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It's that, it is that expectation.

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It is, you know, our, our parents are our caregivers.

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They are, they are our frame of reference.

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and as you said, you, you had that, creativity, that, that will to write and to dream and
think.

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And, know, when, when we're not allowed to be ourselves, we have to fit in, we have to, we
have to fit in because they are

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our caregivers, they feed us, nourish us, keep us alive.

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So we have to stop being authentic to ourselves and start attaching to what they require.

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I need love, I need support.

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And you know, who Nick was, who Hamish was, sort of gets marginalized.

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And I think that is, it's tragic.

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It's not no one's fault.

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It's just tragic.

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And I think that's the process of almost all childhoods.

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I think that everybody graduates from childhood into adulthood with the love their parents
could give for them.

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And nobody graduates from childhood into adulthood with all the love or all the nurture or
all or whatever it was that they needed.

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don't think it's possible for anyone to parent like that, you know.

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And I would, you know, I won't even say that of my own parenting.

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But I think that, I think that when we journey through adult life, everyone is journeying
with some sort of wound that they acquired in childhood.

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For some people, it's a horror story.

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There's, you know, obviously childhood sexual abuse or...

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Sometimes, you know, bereavement or some sort of major trauma.

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And I think, thankfully, that's not the majority of people's stories.

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If it was, you know, then we'd be in a different kind of world.

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And I think for everybody else, there is something, some kind of minor, either crisis or a
minor kind of cram.

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between the parent-child relationship.

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I think if parents try to be too much, then you get this other kind of narcissistic,
smothering parent where, know, mum won't actually go away.

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And so parents can never, they can kind of get it right, but they can never be absolutely
everything that a child requires.

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And part of the journey through life, I think, is in adult life.

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the child reflecting on this and taking that responsibility we all got to take to go,
right, well, where, do I address that?

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How do I address that lack, that thing and fill the hole myself?

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And the first thing that lots of people do and they do it instinctually and they do it
unwittingly is that they find alcohol or sex or food or drugs or gambling or pornography

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or whatever the thing is.

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And that's how they start off by self-nurturing.

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You know, this, this will make me feel better and start comforting.

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And I think all, all people sort of do that to some extent anyway.

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You know, you, you would, if somebody says, well, I've had a horrible day, it's a rainy
day, was a rubbish day at work.

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Tonight, I'm to go home.

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I'm going to watch a movie and I'm going to get a piece of chocolate cake and a glass of
wine.

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and I'm just going to, you know, comfort myself.

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You're not going to say to that person, my you terrible addicts, you we need to rush you
to rehab, you know, because they're not really.

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They're just somebody that's reaching for things outside of themselves to do the nurture.

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And I think so widespread, you can probably call that being as part of human nature.

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I think you have nailed the most important thing to help people make sense of addiction.

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I think that is so profoundly important because when, I mean, I think everyone who's an
addict and is still alive is a flipping superhero.

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You know, I found a way to cope.

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You found a way to cope.

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She did by that eating.

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He did by the pornography.

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Doesn't mean that behavior is okay, but we found a way to survive rather than

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shoot ourselves, hang ourselves, crash a car, go mad, whatever.

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So I love the fact that you've beautifully explained that we find ways to cope with life.

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And I think just that allows people to take that shame away to go, I am a hero.

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I'm not an insert expletive of choice when it comes to what people perceive.

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And I think that is probably

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an incredibly important step in that journey of being able to, let's just say, sober up to
actually look at what we're really facing.

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Yeah, and there was a story I heard recently and this came from a piece of science.

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it's, and it's, you know, if you break down the walls between addiction and other mental
health phenomena, this story kind of makes a lot of sense.

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But there was some, some young lads in, a study was done of the mental health of some
young lads in quite a rough part of London.

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I think it was probably the East End because

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from where they were living, they could look down the river and see Canary Wharf and all
these big shining towers of banking and stuff like that.

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And these, you know, rich guys would drive past their neighborhood on the way to work in
Porsches and Ferraris and stuff like that.

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And they found that amongst this demographic, the incidence of psychosis were much higher
than in neighboring areas.

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So they looked at these young men and they thought,

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Actually, they're not smoking lots of cannabis, is a big indicator of psychosis.

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There's not high incidences of others' childhood experiences, know, child violence,
physical or sexual abuse or anything like that.

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On paper, these guys should have reasonably good mental health, but they don't.

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And the reason why they don't is because all day long these are working class young men.

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often black and minority ethnic, so likely to be poor and likely to face more challenges
to access wealth.

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And all day long, they're being bombarded with images of wealth.

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If it's not on Instagram, as they walk or TikTok or YouTube, it's all around them.

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They're seeing, know, Ferraris and Porsches zip past their neighborhoods.

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And they're being told all day long, if you don't have...

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some supermodel girlfriend.

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If you don't have some jacked body, if you don't have access to champagnes and private
jets and ferraris and things like that, you don't deserve to exist.

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You know, you are the scum of the earth and you should go and just cease existing.

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This is the message that they get.

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There's this huge society, has this huge paywall and if you want to have any of the things
that give you

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not just fun, but value and self-esteem and purpose and worth.

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And you have to be able to cross through the paywall.

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And if you can't, then, you know, fuck off, go away, stop existing.

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And so the psychoses amongst these young men were them essentially creating alternative
realities to exist in.

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Not particularly pleasant or logical ones, because the mind doesn't do that.

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It doesn't create narnia for us when we have psychosis.

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And it's, but if you really trace that back to the question of addiction.

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What the mind will do if it's in unbearable circumstances, it will try to solve the
problem.

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It will try to solve the problem of trying to make things bearable.

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Well, what else can we do?

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And often that is disorganized and chaotic because I'm not suggesting for a moment that,
you know, if you're depressed, going and drinking a bottle of vodka is going to help.

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But on the mind's kind of...

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illogical logic, that evasion, that escape is sometimes the only thing it can think to do.

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It's tried to solve the problem of whatever the problem is, umpteen different ways.

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And sometimes people are just boxed in.

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Sometimes there aren't alternatives to them.

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And so flight is the one that makes sense.

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know what the answer is to that because we've got social media, as you said, we've got the
TikTok, Instagram, Glamour, this, that and the other, all the lies and nonsense that we

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actually forget that we see all of that.

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It's taken me till my late 40s to realize that comparison really is the thief of joy.

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Now, early 50s, I still battle with it from time to time to time time time to time.

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But

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You know, it's, it's, I've had to work through that.

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And I guess if you're in your twenties or thirties and life is tough and things like that,
it's, it's, it's less important to actually appreciate and realize.

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I mean I would say, and this is not to go down any sort of political route, because that's
not what we're really here for, but a less radically unequal society would help, but also

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You know, the pedagogies, the way in which we educate people and the purposes for which we
educate people, you know, arguably a century or so out of date.

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And you would find, I think, if, if sort of a regular part of the school curriculum from,
and it is there, but sort of in piecemeal fashion, from primary school.

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through to school leaver at 18 is about just developing that robust self-worth and
acknowledging that bloody hell, the kids, there are huge challenges against them to kind

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of hold on to and maintain that self-worth.

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We supposedly educate people in English and maths so they can become...

203
00:20:21,947 --> 00:20:33,183
economic agents within society and be good workers and all this this this kind of stuff
but think of the value of Because this is a very unwell society we live in a very very

204
00:20:33,183 --> 00:20:47,051
emotionally unwell society a very distressed society You know if you were a politician and
you wanted to add sort of X percentage to the GDP deal with distress Yeah, deal with human

205
00:20:47,051 --> 00:20:50,383
distress won't make any good newspaper headlines.

206
00:20:50,383 --> 00:20:51,653
I'm pretty sure but

207
00:20:52,080 --> 00:20:58,060
That would be, in the long term, a real game changer, I think, and would make us all
happier.

208
00:20:58,060 --> 00:20:59,630
Happier and generally better off, I think.

209
00:20:59,630 --> 00:21:00,584
But there you go.

210
00:21:01,436 --> 00:21:05,896
So how do we help people who realize they're in this situation?

211
00:21:05,896 --> 00:21:08,996
Because, you know, they realize that this is not healthy.

212
00:21:08,996 --> 00:21:13,636
They realize that I am not where I want to be.

213
00:21:13,636 --> 00:21:19,716
I don't necessarily know where I want to go, but, you know, this isn't working for me.

214
00:21:19,716 --> 00:21:22,380
How do people get out of that trap?

215
00:21:22,845 --> 00:21:31,569
Well, when I hear those words from a service user or client, you know, I'm Jump for Joy
because

216
00:21:31,809 --> 00:21:35,852
you've laid, you've set out there a huge part of the answer.

217
00:21:36,233 --> 00:21:48,643
So imagine, and for legal purposes I'm not talking about any particular person, alive or
dead, because I have obviously done counselling with many, many people, but imagine

218
00:21:48,643 --> 00:21:58,091
somebody comes into my counselling room and they're feeling they've got a problem with
alcohol and they say things like that to me.

219
00:21:58,091 --> 00:21:59,692
They say, you know,

220
00:22:00,597 --> 00:22:02,778
My marriage is on the rocks.

221
00:22:02,879 --> 00:22:05,281
I think I'm in big trouble at work.

222
00:22:05,281 --> 00:22:07,680
I was arrested last week for drink driving.

223
00:22:07,680 --> 00:22:10,164
I've got my court appearance next week.

224
00:22:10,325 --> 00:22:14,968
And they say, you know, I can see this isn't working for me.

225
00:22:14,968 --> 00:22:15,689
Great.

226
00:22:15,689 --> 00:22:16,510
Brilliant.

227
00:22:16,510 --> 00:22:24,836
That's get, because actually sometimes somebody comes into the counseling room and they
can't even see that.

228
00:22:24,836 --> 00:22:28,539
They're like, you know, well, my wife has told me I have to come.

229
00:22:28,539 --> 00:22:30,359
Well, I can't do anything for you if...

230
00:22:30,359 --> 00:22:33,219
you don't feel you have to come.

231
00:22:34,159 --> 00:22:43,359
Or, yeah, you know, maybe I've got a bit of a problem, I still like to the odd drink or,
you know, I don't really want to stop drinking.

232
00:22:43,559 --> 00:22:45,599
I just want to be able to control it more.

233
00:22:45,599 --> 00:22:50,119
And it's like, you were arrested yesterday for drink driving.

234
00:22:50,119 --> 00:22:53,379
Perhaps that ship has sailed, possibly.

235
00:22:53,459 --> 00:22:58,894
But in the first instance, with what I'm hearing is what they refer to as change talk.

236
00:22:59,328 --> 00:23:06,061
So somebody's already in this contemplative stage, they're thinking, I've got to do
something, but I don't know what.

237
00:23:06,362 --> 00:23:13,725
And so then you're in a position to be the collaborative person in that relationship.

238
00:23:14,366 --> 00:23:19,029
And you're in the position to go, cool, all right, you'd like to do something.

239
00:23:19,029 --> 00:23:22,030
And I hear that and I can sense the motivation there.

240
00:23:22,110 --> 00:23:29,174
What if you and I, as a kind of partnership, figured out what you could do and what's
feasible?

241
00:23:29,174 --> 00:23:32,156
what's feasible, even now.

242
00:23:33,037 --> 00:23:40,241
And you start to ignite, hopefully, in that person, the sense that the first big hurdle is
change is possible.

243
00:23:40,682 --> 00:23:51,128
Because you might have had somebody who come in to you and they've seen three different
counsellors, they've been to do hypnotherapy, they've been to AA, they've run the

244
00:23:51,128 --> 00:23:59,027
Samaritans, they've reached out to their friends in desperation, and they've tried all
those things and it hasn't worked.

245
00:23:59,027 --> 00:24:06,359
And they might be at the point where they just think, I don't know what it is you can do
for me, nothing else works, maybe I'm just doomed.

246
00:24:06,839 --> 00:24:14,921
And supporting the person to hold onto a little glimmer of hope, you've got to have hope.

247
00:24:14,921 --> 00:24:16,622
It's hugely important.

248
00:24:17,082 --> 00:24:27,965
And then I think the first thing that normally happens when somebody is working, wants to
do something about the drinking, is that they have the, I call the...

249
00:24:29,580 --> 00:24:31,941
Snowdonia Everest problem.

250
00:24:31,961 --> 00:24:40,501
So if you and I were going for a walk up Snowdonia, that's manageable, know, not
necessarily easy, but manageable.

251
00:24:40,541 --> 00:24:44,741
And if I said, cool, let's have a go at Everest now, shall we?

252
00:24:44,741 --> 00:24:52,541
You know, I don't know anything about mountaineering and unless you are an expert
mountaineer, you're probably going to go, you'll probably give up before you started.

253
00:24:53,021 --> 00:24:56,204
So in terms of, you know,

254
00:24:56,308 --> 00:25:00,948
If you said at the end of the first counselling session with somebody, right, you must
never drink again now.

255
00:25:01,348 --> 00:25:10,268
They're almost certain to drink because you've just presented them with something that's
in their mind, their way of seeing the world is now completely impossible.

256
00:25:10,508 --> 00:25:14,448
But if you say, let's just focus on today, okay?

257
00:25:14,448 --> 00:25:20,888
Let's give ourselves one job, making it tonight without a drink.

258
00:25:20,888 --> 00:25:22,638
And if that's hard, let's break it down.

259
00:25:22,638 --> 00:25:25,043
It's now 10 in the morning, so let's...

260
00:25:25,043 --> 00:25:26,334
see if we can get, we'll get to lunchtime.

261
00:25:26,334 --> 00:25:29,397
When we get to lunchtime, we're just gonna worry about getting to tea time.

262
00:25:29,397 --> 00:25:32,349
When we get to tea time, we're gonna worry about getting to bedtime.

263
00:25:32,349 --> 00:25:34,150
And that's it.

264
00:25:34,191 --> 00:25:37,434
And then want you to call me tomorrow and let me know how you're doing.

265
00:25:37,434 --> 00:25:43,198
And they would almost always ring the centre I was working at in the morning saying, yeah,
I did it, I did my first day.

266
00:25:43,299 --> 00:25:43,999
Brilliant.

267
00:25:43,999 --> 00:25:53,797
And then give them so, support and reward and show to that person that they have actually
just climbed Mount Everest.

268
00:25:54,195 --> 00:26:04,960
they've actually done something that they're like Neo in the Matrix with the bullets,
they've stopped the bullets and they've done it and they've found their superpower.

269
00:26:07,542 --> 00:26:11,384
But I think that it's about, it's about the relationship.

270
00:26:11,384 --> 00:26:19,788
And I was thinking about this the other day when I was watching the Lord of the Rings show
on Amazon.

271
00:26:19,969 --> 00:26:22,971
And if you think about, I'm often to some movie analogies now, but.

272
00:26:22,971 --> 00:26:32,376
You think about in Lords of the Rings, you should always try to be a Gandalf and not
anybody else because Gandalf doesn't do anything for Frodo, really.

273
00:26:32,816 --> 00:26:34,937
He accompanies him.

274
00:26:34,977 --> 00:26:37,228
He says, well, it's probably that way.

275
00:26:37,228 --> 00:26:46,463
And he also he also says, we realize he realizes that the burden of the ring is for Frodo
to carry.

276
00:26:46,643 --> 00:26:52,406
He won't abandon Frodo, but he won't do things when it's Frodo's turn to do them.

277
00:26:52,824 --> 00:26:56,306
And that is in counselling is I think how you should be.

278
00:26:56,306 --> 00:27:11,684
Obviously you should try not to think of yourself as the wise old wizard either because
the person is actually the expert on their own problems and you know, but if you place

279
00:27:11,684 --> 00:27:20,829
yourself as the powerful person in the therapeutic relationship then it will all turn to
absolute horror and all sorts of terrible things will happen.

280
00:27:21,494 --> 00:27:22,575
So I...

281
00:27:22,575 --> 00:27:23,534
always avoid that.

282
00:27:23,534 --> 00:27:34,369
It's about, I think, it's about when you're with somebody and you're firstly, as they
start to divulge their story, which might just be about their drinking, but it might be

283
00:27:34,369 --> 00:27:38,650
about a whole bunch of other stuff, things that they've never told anybody.

284
00:27:38,650 --> 00:27:47,244
They're trusting you with something that is beyond any kind of numerical value.

285
00:27:47,244 --> 00:27:52,582
You know, if somebody trusted you with the crown jewels, it's not as anywhere near

286
00:27:52,582 --> 00:28:07,802
level of trust that this person is placing with you for the first time in your life and
it's a privilege you know it's the privilege of my life really to be that person there and

287
00:28:07,802 --> 00:28:19,782
also they're inviting you to come on the journey with them and so not only I said earlier
on hope

288
00:28:19,782 --> 00:28:23,842
is the thing that you have to inculcate in the person, that you think that can be
achieved.

289
00:28:23,842 --> 00:28:29,969
But you yourself, as the therapist, have to believe in that person.

290
00:28:29,969 --> 00:28:30,743
believe in them.

291
00:28:30,743 --> 00:28:41,096
There's been the odd occasion in a therapeutic relationship where the person has, they
find it so hard to be honest with me that I had to kind of eventually bring that and call

292
00:28:41,096 --> 00:28:45,152
that out and say, look, you we're not, you and I aren't telling the truth to one another.

293
00:28:45,152 --> 00:28:52,226
I haven't been telling the truth to you in a way because I haven't raised this until now.

294
00:28:54,388 --> 00:28:56,171
And because if you lose...

295
00:28:56,171 --> 00:29:04,427
If you lose that, if you find a situation where you and the other person can't believe in
one another, then you're kind of done really.

296
00:29:04,807 --> 00:29:12,694
So that in itself, little, there's two little flames of hope and belief you have to kind
of nurture.

297
00:29:12,694 --> 00:29:13,574
Yep.

298
00:29:14,676 --> 00:29:15,557
I love that.

299
00:29:15,557 --> 00:29:16,227
love the...

300
00:29:16,227 --> 00:29:21,704
you're holding their hand or you're shining a torch where their feet go next.

301
00:29:21,704 --> 00:29:24,897
And it's not up to top of the mountain.

302
00:29:24,897 --> 00:29:30,392
It is literally, you know, just in front where the next foot goes if you're playing in the
dark.

303
00:29:30,548 --> 00:29:31,208
That's right.

304
00:29:31,208 --> 00:29:41,388
And it's about asking those useful questions that gives the person autonomy and power in
the relationship to go, what do you reckon?

305
00:29:41,388 --> 00:29:42,748
Is it that way?

306
00:29:43,108 --> 00:29:44,528
What do you reckon?

307
00:29:44,668 --> 00:29:45,528
Or what about there?

308
00:29:45,528 --> 00:29:46,858
Do you want to go and look over there?

309
00:29:46,858 --> 00:29:48,668
Because we can if you want.

310
00:29:48,748 --> 00:29:50,248
Maybe we should.

311
00:29:51,868 --> 00:29:58,728
Sometimes there are things that are too painful for people to, or they don't feel safe to
explore.

312
00:29:58,968 --> 00:30:00,422
And that's cool.

313
00:30:00,422 --> 00:30:01,353
You know?

314
00:30:02,232 --> 00:30:09,025
The best thing that was ever said to me about therapy is it should feel like a dance, not
like a struggle.

315
00:30:09,025 --> 00:30:10,445
It is, isn't it?

316
00:30:11,465 --> 00:30:15,275
It's, you're being led by the other person, but you're just guiding them.

317
00:30:15,275 --> 00:30:20,785
I think that is, I love everything that you've explained there.

318
00:30:20,785 --> 00:30:25,725
But we've started with somebody who has said, hey, I think I've got a problem.

319
00:30:26,505 --> 00:30:38,137
What about the people who are unaware that, as you said, right at the beginning of this
little bit, they've had the car crash, they've got the DUI, and they still think...

320
00:30:38,901 --> 00:30:40,300
They still think it's okay.

321
00:30:40,300 --> 00:30:40,723
What?

322
00:30:40,723 --> 00:30:45,903
How do we bring awareness to these people or is it just case of just sitting and watching?

323
00:30:46,058 --> 00:30:49,760
Well, I think also, I mean, it's you believe what you believe.

324
00:30:49,760 --> 00:30:55,422
You know, there are certain things in the world I don't believe to be true and certain
things I do believe to be true.

325
00:30:55,422 --> 00:31:03,027
And some people believe in the things that I don't believe and disbelieve the things I do
believe in, know, each to the right in a way.

326
00:31:03,647 --> 00:31:08,738
And you have to say, well, why is the conversation between you and I?

327
00:31:08,738 --> 00:31:09,758
happening.

328
00:31:09,878 --> 00:31:12,359
Okay, you came here for a reason.

329
00:31:13,759 --> 00:31:22,202
You've said that, you know, being arrested for drink driving, that that's not related to
alcohol somehow.

330
00:31:22,202 --> 00:31:24,922
That's an interesting kind of...

331
00:31:26,023 --> 00:31:30,584
Perhaps we can explore that argument.

332
00:31:32,485 --> 00:31:37,066
But also it's about saying, well, okay, well, how can I be helpful to you?

333
00:31:37,998 --> 00:31:39,158
How can I help?

334
00:31:39,338 --> 00:31:42,038
And often the person says, well, I don't know.

335
00:31:42,538 --> 00:31:48,158
And the point and what they're articulating is, I mean, I've got a problem now.

336
00:31:48,418 --> 00:31:53,238
Drinking has caught up with me and I'm really in trouble.

337
00:31:53,258 --> 00:31:55,608
I've been arrested.

338
00:31:55,608 --> 00:31:56,978
I'm going to leave my job.

339
00:31:56,978 --> 00:31:59,238
My wife's probably going to leave me.

340
00:31:59,878 --> 00:32:07,978
And if you follow the chain of thought forward, it is probably, and they very rarely
articulate this,

341
00:32:07,978 --> 00:32:13,740
I was kind of coming here today to hope that you would get me out of trouble somehow.

342
00:32:14,121 --> 00:32:19,013
And it's like, well, when I thought of myself as Gandalf, I didn't actually mean wizard,
you know, I don't actually do magic.

343
00:32:19,013 --> 00:32:27,926
cause that, but it's like, well, actually you have to experience the trouble.

344
00:32:27,926 --> 00:32:29,787
You have to be in the discomfort.

345
00:32:29,787 --> 00:32:36,790
You have to experience that life will bring consequences to you and you know,

346
00:32:36,942 --> 00:32:40,224
for doing driving with very good reason, fortunately.

347
00:32:43,347 --> 00:32:45,450
And it's not the therapist's role.

348
00:32:45,450 --> 00:32:58,500
And here's why you have to really check your boundaries and look at how are you starting
to collaborate with this person actually against themselves.

349
00:32:58,500 --> 00:33:05,866
Because if you did something miraculously to help get this person off the hook, what then?

350
00:33:06,200 --> 00:33:13,554
what happens then, what are the consequences of that, are you you helping or harming?

351
00:33:13,894 --> 00:33:27,602
And it can be very easy to become kind of collaborative in a negative way with somebody
when they're coming to you to ask you for things which are actually ultimately harmful to

352
00:33:27,602 --> 00:33:28,462
them.

353
00:33:28,822 --> 00:33:32,344
And so you have to really watch that one.

354
00:33:34,176 --> 00:33:45,289
I think it's easiest to say, well look, there is a finite amount without your buy-in,
because this only works if there's a partnership here, without your buy-in.

355
00:33:45,850 --> 00:33:47,970
There's a finite amount I can do.

356
00:33:48,710 --> 00:34:01,154
And if they are not at that stage where they recognise that alcohol's a problem, because
you do, you know, you, as the person can see, is placing the obvious.

357
00:34:01,154 --> 00:34:02,954
But what I can see is irrelevant.

358
00:34:02,954 --> 00:34:04,694
It doesn't matter what I can see.

359
00:34:04,694 --> 00:34:06,714
It's about what they can see.

360
00:34:06,714 --> 00:34:09,014
So bring it down.

361
00:34:09,014 --> 00:34:11,454
Say, you know, life's hard for you.

362
00:34:11,454 --> 00:34:12,974
Let's talk about that.

363
00:34:12,974 --> 00:34:14,534
Let's talk about that.

364
00:34:14,534 --> 00:34:18,114
Tell me about yourself and get to know them.

365
00:34:18,114 --> 00:34:26,286
And gradually, as they tell their story, you'll find where alcohol or drugs or whatever
else it is exists within the story.

366
00:34:26,588 --> 00:34:26,996
Hmm.

367
00:34:26,996 --> 00:34:35,138
you'll find out, you know, just as if you were reading a novel and you find out there's an
interesting character on page two, by the time you get to page 200, you know a heck of a

368
00:34:35,138 --> 00:34:36,669
lot about this character.

369
00:34:36,766 --> 00:34:40,950
And alcohol is like a character, know, addiction is a character in the story.

370
00:34:41,610 --> 00:34:46,911
It's played all sorts of roles and has sometimes been a good guy and sometimes been a
villain.

371
00:34:47,232 --> 00:34:56,586
And at the end of the conversation, often the person can reflect a little.

372
00:34:56,586 --> 00:35:02,800
and see the character in the story perhaps a bit of the way that you see the character in
the story.

373
00:35:02,800 --> 00:35:08,503
And I think that's a helpful, empowering place, but you can't want for people things they
don't want for themselves.

374
00:35:08,503 --> 00:35:10,583
She sounds like an obvious thing to say.

375
00:35:12,364 --> 00:35:19,097
And sometimes people I've talked to have been exactly as the case study I describe.

376
00:35:19,097 --> 00:35:23,769
And, you know, unfortunately bad things do happen.

377
00:35:24,057 --> 00:35:34,777
As a result, further crises occur until eventually that individual says, do you know what?

378
00:35:35,077 --> 00:35:38,457
I think you're right and maybe I do need some help.

379
00:35:38,977 --> 00:35:44,433
I was, sometimes I believe this idea of the 11th person.

380
00:35:44,604 --> 00:35:59,784
And if you imagine that there's somebody and they have from the ages of like me, so 15 to
30, say, in that year, in that 15 year period, let's say there are 10 help points that I

381
00:35:59,784 --> 00:36:00,743
reached.

382
00:36:02,084 --> 00:36:08,604
A telephone helpline, a school counselor, a particularly enlightened friend.

383
00:36:08,844 --> 00:36:12,281
And each of those help points, go, I think you need to do something to make you drink.

384
00:36:12,281 --> 00:36:17,461
And it's not the 10th, but it's the 11th person that says, right, you do need to do
something about your drinking.

385
00:36:17,461 --> 00:36:20,061
And finally the penny drops and I do something about my drinking.

386
00:36:20,061 --> 00:36:29,601
Well, the people from one to 10 are all just as useful as the 11th person.

387
00:36:30,061 --> 00:36:40,320
Because what they do is they're handing on in helping ways the problem to the, you know,
from the fifth to the sixth, to the seventh, to the eighth person.

388
00:36:40,320 --> 00:36:42,801
And so they were really, important in the chain.

389
00:36:42,801 --> 00:36:49,524
And you as a therapist might be the fifth person and it depends how that person leaves
you.

390
00:36:49,964 --> 00:36:54,266
Whether or not they'll find the sixth, whether or not they'll find the seventh.

391
00:36:54,446 --> 00:37:03,630
Because if they're supported and helped bit by bit, the chance of them getting there in
the end are pretty good.

392
00:37:05,291 --> 00:37:09,232
And a bad therapist or somebody that says, shall we say,

393
00:37:09,484 --> 00:37:13,515
things that are really, really counterproductive, they might end the chain.

394
00:37:13,515 --> 00:37:14,636
That's harrowing.

395
00:37:14,636 --> 00:37:18,051
I'm sorry, I've got goosebumps and I'm not sure whether they're good or bad.

396
00:37:18,051 --> 00:37:19,960
I haven't quite worked that one out.

397
00:37:22,342 --> 00:37:23,413
But I like that.

398
00:37:23,413 --> 00:37:25,195
It's not denial.

399
00:37:25,195 --> 00:37:27,036
It's nothing as harsh as that.

400
00:37:27,036 --> 00:37:29,567
It's just curious, curious, curious.

401
00:37:29,728 --> 00:37:30,669
Actually, it's that, isn't it?

402
00:37:30,669 --> 00:37:37,544
It's curious, curious, because normally they're going downhill and then I've actually got
to take some accountability for my life.

403
00:37:37,544 --> 00:37:40,045
I've actually got to take some responsibility for my life.

404
00:37:40,045 --> 00:37:45,585
Those around me, my peers, my friends, my partner, partners, work, whatever.

405
00:37:45,585 --> 00:37:48,907
If I don't show up, the consequences are.

406
00:37:48,907 --> 00:37:52,098
Yeah.

407
00:37:52,098 --> 00:37:54,189
And it's, it's, that, it's that simple, isn't it?

408
00:37:54,189 --> 00:37:57,530
It's, there's no, it's just your journey.

409
00:37:57,530 --> 00:38:03,542
It's just your journey, one's journey of life and then deciding whether you want to change
or not.

410
00:38:03,542 --> 00:38:05,392
Right back to the beginning, change.

411
00:38:05,704 --> 00:38:06,565
yeah.

412
00:38:06,925 --> 00:38:27,942
And it's about, I mean, you know, the basic principles of somebody feeling accepted and
valued and judged and not judged, obviously, sorry, when they're in the space and seen for

413
00:38:28,102 --> 00:38:32,986
the hurting human being that they are and not the

414
00:38:33,917 --> 00:38:38,565
the problem that probably lots of other people think that they are.

415
00:38:38,998 --> 00:38:40,258
Yeah.

416
00:38:41,040 --> 00:38:41,920
Yeah.

417
00:38:42,041 --> 00:38:43,021
I yeah, that's it.

418
00:38:43,021 --> 00:38:43,612
Isn't it?

419
00:38:43,612 --> 00:38:44,723
It's not.

420
00:38:44,823 --> 00:38:46,024
It's not seeing the behavior.

421
00:38:46,024 --> 00:38:56,344
It's seeing the person behind it and understanding that, that, that appalling behavior is
based on insecurity, on fear, on regret, on shame.

422
00:38:56,344 --> 00:39:00,709
Because when I, when I look back at me, you know, I was

423
00:39:00,709 --> 00:39:11,353
I was obviously drinking, I was lying, I was being generally horrible, but all those
things, right back to the beginning, they were coping strategies so I didn't have to feel,

424
00:39:11,353 --> 00:39:16,575
so I didn't have to experience what was too overwhelming.

425
00:39:16,575 --> 00:39:20,897
However, it was damaging my relationships at work, personal and things like that.

426
00:39:20,897 --> 00:39:23,158
was the consequences stacked up.

427
00:39:23,158 --> 00:39:28,860
As I went downhill, the consequences went up and it got to that point where I had two
choices.

428
00:39:28,860 --> 00:39:29,412
Yeah.

429
00:39:29,412 --> 00:39:31,372
Absolutely, absolutely.

430
00:39:31,372 --> 00:39:42,152
unfortunately, you know, I often wish, is there a, often, is there not a kind of a kind of
a gentler way to deal with addiction, but often it's the consequences.

431
00:39:42,712 --> 00:39:56,816
And I did this radio phone in years ago on, in Wales, on Radio Wales, about, it was some
kind of new employment law about

432
00:39:57,602 --> 00:40:00,253
mandatory breathalysation at work or something like that.

433
00:40:00,793 --> 00:40:04,823
And, you know, I've got, I have mixed views about that.

434
00:40:04,823 --> 00:40:09,705
I think in certain jobs, you know, train driving and things like that, you know, you just
have to have it.

435
00:40:09,705 --> 00:40:18,938
In certain roles, I think it's kind of oppressive and unnecessary.

436
00:40:18,938 --> 00:40:27,440
But the conversation went and the presenters that said, well, you know, if you found out
that your colleague was

437
00:40:28,332 --> 00:40:34,432
drink driving at work or turning up to work drunk on a job, would you tell on them?

438
00:40:34,432 --> 00:40:37,656
I was like, well, I wouldn't put it like that.

439
00:40:37,656 --> 00:40:46,479
think firstly, everybody in a situation needs to know the truth for the most part.

440
00:40:46,860 --> 00:40:55,083
And I think once you start covering for somebody, then you're collaborating in their self
harm.

441
00:40:57,172 --> 00:41:05,099
you're compromised as well and all this kind of stuff and the one of the interviews was
like yes but you know you might you might harm them you're not tipping over the edge and

442
00:41:05,099 --> 00:41:17,939
it was this this basic lack of and I don't blame anybody because you sort of have to be in
this field and have walked this walk to get what I'm talking about but that shielding that

443
00:41:18,600 --> 00:41:24,156
colleague who has an alcohol problem or an addiction problem from the consequences of
their own behaviors is not helping

444
00:41:24,156 --> 00:41:30,867
it's collaborating in their harm and sometimes the hard stuff needs to happen.

445
00:41:30,867 --> 00:41:31,637
Yep.

446
00:41:32,378 --> 00:41:33,099
It isn't it.

447
00:41:33,099 --> 00:41:46,498
It's, it must be brutal for a mom or a dad whose child, teenager has got a drinking
problem or a drug problem because you know, you, you love them, you want to support them

448
00:41:46,498 --> 00:41:50,330
and giving them 50 quid for food is not the right answer.

449
00:41:50,330 --> 00:41:51,671
You're enabling.

450
00:41:52,852 --> 00:41:54,353
and then kick it, kicking them out.

451
00:41:54,353 --> 00:42:00,308
mean, I'm on one or two forums where this is, this is what's happening, kicking out
spouses, kicking out children.

452
00:42:00,308 --> 00:42:03,521
I am so grateful I'm never going to be in that situation.

453
00:42:04,883 --> 00:42:07,746
But I mean, yeah, it must just be appalling.

454
00:42:07,746 --> 00:42:14,393
But you have you've got that you've got to do something if they're not going to look after
themselves, then yeah, I don't know what the answer is.

455
00:42:14,657 --> 00:42:25,765
Well, I've run a family group for family members, which is obviously different from family
therapy, but it's a family support group for many years.

456
00:42:26,166 --> 00:42:34,893
And there have been a number of occasions where particularly an adult child has to be
forcibly ejected from the home.

457
00:42:36,194 --> 00:42:38,996
And it's horrible.

458
00:42:39,156 --> 00:42:43,499
is, make no mistake, is a horrible, horrible...

459
00:42:44,250 --> 00:42:45,580
procedure.

460
00:42:45,700 --> 00:42:59,714
But if you have an adult child with a drug problem, say a gambling issue, who's stealing
from the family and whom red line after red line after red line has been placed down.

461
00:42:59,714 --> 00:43:11,048
And the purpose of breaking through those red lines is to go ha ha, know, your boundaries
mean nothing and maybe it's been quite a boundaryless childhood you never know.

462
00:43:13,488 --> 00:43:23,308
And sometimes it's just been a case of organising the family, know, mum and dad and the
other siblings, to stand as one and say, enough now.

463
00:43:23,488 --> 00:43:32,348
If you break this red line, if you steal from the family, if you assault a family member,
then you're homeless.

464
00:43:33,608 --> 00:43:43,204
And sometimes when you do that, the person for the first time who's got the problem has to
confront the problem, When we're going to live.

465
00:43:43,280 --> 00:43:46,500
Well, you're to have to figure that out now.

466
00:43:47,900 --> 00:43:55,360
And then they start looking at the consequences that addiction is causing them.

467
00:43:57,140 --> 00:44:04,100
sometimes family relations never quite return to something kind of amicable.

468
00:44:04,100 --> 00:44:05,980
Sometimes they don't.

469
00:44:06,300 --> 00:44:10,800
And it's like, well, that's what addiction does in families.

470
00:44:10,980 --> 00:44:12,905
It's not nice.

471
00:44:12,905 --> 00:44:14,546
Yeah, it's not.

472
00:44:14,546 --> 00:44:17,867
It's that simple, isn't it?

473
00:44:17,867 --> 00:44:19,378
It's not sanitized.

474
00:44:19,378 --> 00:44:21,238
It's not easy.

475
00:44:21,238 --> 00:44:22,139
It's not clean.

476
00:44:22,139 --> 00:44:23,560
It is just a mess.

477
00:44:23,560 --> 00:44:25,661
It is a mess.

478
00:44:25,661 --> 00:44:31,315
yeah, the result of not taking accountability, not being able to.

479
00:44:31,315 --> 00:44:35,385
I mean, I'm not trying to portion blame here because it's not as simple as that.

480
00:44:35,385 --> 00:44:37,706
It's just, yeah, it's just, it's what's happened, isn't it?

481
00:44:37,706 --> 00:44:39,933
I suppose you can't really look back and say,

482
00:44:39,933 --> 00:44:42,686
If you did this, if you did that doesn't help.

483
00:44:43,008 --> 00:44:45,350
It's going forward.

484
00:44:45,867 --> 00:44:47,241
Yeah, yeah.

485
00:44:47,241 --> 00:44:49,182
This has been a fabulous conversation.

486
00:44:49,182 --> 00:44:56,028
I want to dive in very quickly because you've talked about you had a problem with alcohol.

487
00:44:56,028 --> 00:45:01,483
How did you realize that it was a problem and how did you get out of it?

488
00:45:01,483 --> 00:45:08,839
Because I think where you are now, helping people, supporting people, you've had that
experience.

489
00:45:08,839 --> 00:45:12,532
what got you to that point?

490
00:45:12,532 --> 00:45:16,425
What was that point where you had, let's say, two choices?

491
00:45:17,237 --> 00:45:19,851
And how did you make sense going forwards there?

492
00:45:19,851 --> 00:45:37,271
Well, I would say that probably from the age of about 20, for about 10 years, I had a
succession of pretty huge kind of, about every couple of years, a fairly huge alcohol

493
00:45:37,271 --> 00:45:40,571
crisis, a mental health crisis.

494
00:45:41,551 --> 00:45:46,550
And what alcohol does is, or what addiction does,

495
00:45:47,114 --> 00:45:50,365
is it's very good at sweeping things under the carpet.

496
00:45:50,365 --> 00:46:09,680
So you have a period, I had a period say at end of my university days where I'd a complete
mental breakdown and I'd admit myself to a psychiatric hospital and was diagnosed with

497
00:46:09,680 --> 00:46:11,257
alcohol-induced anxiety.

498
00:46:11,257 --> 00:46:15,562
I only got to see those medical notes years later and it would have been...

499
00:46:15,634 --> 00:46:22,619
probably quite helpful to have seen the doctor's write up there.

500
00:46:22,899 --> 00:46:36,990
And then I kind of went home and got addicted to this weird thing where you can sort of
look at face value and go, that was pretty bad, yeah.

501
00:46:36,990 --> 00:46:38,090
What caused it?

502
00:46:38,090 --> 00:46:39,091
I don't know.

503
00:46:39,091 --> 00:46:40,452
What could it be?

504
00:46:40,452 --> 00:46:42,193
Anyway, let's move on.

505
00:46:43,866 --> 00:46:47,828
Addiction works, I think, in the way that collectively we look at climate change.

506
00:46:47,828 --> 00:46:50,350
think, pretty bad hurricane.

507
00:46:50,350 --> 00:46:51,280
Yeah, I know.

508
00:46:51,280 --> 00:46:52,891
But what could have caused it?

509
00:46:52,931 --> 00:46:53,982
All sorts of things.

510
00:46:53,982 --> 00:46:54,342
Wind.

511
00:46:54,342 --> 00:46:54,852
I don't know.

512
00:46:54,852 --> 00:46:56,333
Anyway, let's move on.

513
00:46:56,733 --> 00:47:02,667
And then addiction is all about trying to return to this kind of illusion of normality.

514
00:47:02,667 --> 00:47:11,061
And it's about trying to return to the illusion of the normal drinker or the normal
cannabis user or gambler or whatever it is.

515
00:47:11,061 --> 00:47:12,702
I can handle this.

516
00:47:13,581 --> 00:47:24,769
And whenever crisis, I think human beings do this in all sorts of different ways, when
crises come along, we have to sort of kill ourselves, the things that we do and the

517
00:47:24,769 --> 00:47:28,931
systems that we use kind of function and everyone will stop looking at it now.

518
00:47:29,471 --> 00:47:41,260
And when I was about 27, I think, I got fired from my first job due to my drinking.

519
00:47:42,178 --> 00:47:50,812
And at that point, it was there for a moment there, I got close to getting well.

520
00:47:51,573 --> 00:48:00,597
But when I was confronted, particularly by my parents about my drinking, I worked
overtime.

521
00:48:00,597 --> 00:48:06,200
worked, you know, if you think of like a moment in your life where you put...

522
00:48:06,512 --> 00:48:18,092
110 % of effort and focus into one thing, whether it's setting up a business or learning
how to play purple haze or whatever it is, you you did it and you pulled it off and it

523
00:48:18,092 --> 00:48:19,312
meant so much to you.

524
00:48:19,312 --> 00:48:21,632
I did that to save my drinking.

525
00:48:22,452 --> 00:48:24,792
And I saved it.

526
00:48:25,252 --> 00:48:33,912
And if you think about the meaning of alcoholism there, you know, my life had fallen apart
for about the third or the fourth time.

527
00:48:33,912 --> 00:48:35,624
And yet...

528
00:48:35,669 --> 00:48:44,157
It was important for me to go to any lengths, to tell any lie, any deception, anything at
all, to save my drinking.

529
00:48:44,157 --> 00:48:49,411
To particularly prevent my family from really understanding.

530
00:48:51,654 --> 00:49:01,823
And to kid them, to use them and to kid them into helping me to return to the normalcy of
supposed sensible drinking again.

531
00:49:02,767 --> 00:49:06,287
But the reality was I didn't want to be a sensible drinker, no alcoholic does.

532
00:49:06,287 --> 00:49:16,447
I mean, I remember one night when I was at university, a friend of mine saying, because
you must have known I had a drinking problem, why don't we just go down to the pub down

533
00:49:16,447 --> 00:49:19,387
the road and we'll just have one drink and come home?

534
00:49:19,507 --> 00:49:24,487
And I thought, because that would be a torture, that would be like gouging out one of my
eyes.

535
00:49:24,487 --> 00:49:27,147
I mean, why would you do that to me?

536
00:49:28,307 --> 00:49:30,922
Anyway, so.

537
00:49:30,922 --> 00:49:36,566
About two years after I'd been fired from this job as a newspaper journalist.

538
00:49:37,928 --> 00:49:46,694
And what they say about newspaper journalists, I don't know whether it's true now, but
certainly then it was, of, you know, an alcoholics career.

539
00:49:49,537 --> 00:49:52,459
A friend of mine who was...

540
00:49:53,122 --> 00:49:56,954
I won't talk about this person too much because they're not...

541
00:49:56,954 --> 00:49:58,891
You know, don't want to talk about them too much.

542
00:49:58,891 --> 00:50:04,851
But they were, an old friend of mine who was also an alcoholic and we'd done a lot of
drinking together in my newspaper days.

543
00:50:04,851 --> 00:50:06,611
They did something else.

544
00:50:06,611 --> 00:50:10,031
They got themselves into way, way more trouble.

545
00:50:10,471 --> 00:50:17,011
They were sort of on kind of page three of some national newspapers for some of the things
they'd done with their drinking.

546
00:50:17,391 --> 00:50:19,511
And they wound up in rehab.

547
00:50:19,631 --> 00:50:28,849
And this wonderful friend of mine, who I love to the bottom of my heart, the first thing
he did when he got out of rehab...

548
00:50:29,193 --> 00:50:31,993
was he rang me up.

549
00:50:32,393 --> 00:50:39,253
And I thought I kind of knew this was a phone call I should avoid.

550
00:50:40,253 --> 00:50:45,823
I kind of knew, you know, sometimes alcoholics have a sixth sense about things.

551
00:50:45,823 --> 00:50:48,573
I think it's what keeps alcoholics alive, actually.

552
00:50:48,573 --> 00:50:51,533
But I knew something was up about his phone call.

553
00:50:51,533 --> 00:50:58,556
And so I started to kind of waffle and fill the noise and fill the spaces with noise and

554
00:50:59,112 --> 00:51:02,972
plather on and tried to say to him, you know, how are you?

555
00:51:02,972 --> 00:51:04,632
And you know, how are you doing?

556
00:51:04,632 --> 00:51:06,812
And yes, you need to sort your drink out.

557
00:51:06,812 --> 00:51:09,592
And he just went, will you shut up?

558
00:51:09,832 --> 00:51:12,452
And he said, shut up.

559
00:51:12,552 --> 00:51:15,272
You, you are an alcoholic.

560
00:51:15,892 --> 00:51:18,592
And I don't know what it was about that moment.

561
00:51:18,592 --> 00:51:23,512
Maybe in a different timeline, I missed that moment in some of the Paradell universe.

562
00:51:23,552 --> 00:51:26,512
When I was able just to go, I could just blurt it out.

563
00:51:26,512 --> 00:51:27,732
I just said, I know.

564
00:51:27,732 --> 00:51:28,704
Yeah, I know.

565
00:51:28,936 --> 00:51:30,896
I know, I know, I know.

566
00:51:30,896 --> 00:51:36,556
And the relief then of going, finally I've said it, I've said it.

567
00:51:36,556 --> 00:51:40,036
Because that's word you can't put away again, isn't it?

568
00:51:40,036 --> 00:51:44,296
Bit of a problem with my drinking, drink a bit too much.

569
00:51:45,436 --> 00:51:48,256
That's, can survive that.

570
00:51:48,256 --> 00:51:51,316
The A word, you can't.

571
00:51:51,316 --> 00:51:54,376
And that was the beginning.

572
00:51:54,376 --> 00:51:56,836
And that was in 2004.

573
00:51:57,217 --> 00:52:04,910
and in April 2004 and it took me another couple of months finally finding to embrace
recovery.

574
00:52:04,910 --> 00:52:14,613
So I sort of had a few weeks here and a drink there and a few weeks there and a drink
there and then finally I went to AA.

575
00:52:14,874 --> 00:52:19,135
And I don't go to AA, I went there for about five years, I don't go anymore.

576
00:52:19,135 --> 00:52:27,058
have some, in some ways, a kind of complex and conflicted relationship with AA, but what I
would say...

577
00:52:27,422 --> 00:52:29,842
is kind of don't listen to me.

578
00:52:29,842 --> 00:52:36,062
If you're listening to this, you want to go to a meeting and you need to go to a meeting,
bloody go.

579
00:52:37,522 --> 00:52:53,162
Because the science, if you look at this, they did a study in America in the 1990s and
they found of the people that got well into the long term, there were three things that

580
00:52:53,162 --> 00:52:54,862
played a part.

581
00:52:54,902 --> 00:52:55,558
There were

582
00:52:55,558 --> 00:53:09,318
Two of them were therapies, one being cognitive behavioral therapy, the other being
motivational interviewing, and the third was some form of support group, peer group.

583
00:53:10,818 --> 00:53:16,898
You shouldn't really equate AA with being group therapy because it's not, it's a support
group.

584
00:53:16,898 --> 00:53:19,198
Group therapy is slightly different.

585
00:53:20,097 --> 00:53:32,060
All the science shows that your chances of getting well into the long term with other
people working together in a collaborative way sharing similar problems, working towards

586
00:53:32,060 --> 00:53:43,543
similar goals shoots off the charts when you wind in one of those places and if you try
and do it alone you'll fail because no one gets well alone.

587
00:53:43,664 --> 00:53:44,504
Nobody.

588
00:53:44,504 --> 00:53:49,365
Which is why Hamish you've got this wonderful wonderful community that you have made.

589
00:53:49,455 --> 00:53:51,376
I have immense admiration for it.

590
00:53:52,316 --> 00:53:58,058
So it was finally, it was like the theory of the 11th man again.

591
00:53:58,098 --> 00:54:03,120
My friend was the 11th man who finally said, you have a problem.

592
00:54:03,120 --> 00:54:08,382
And finally I could go, I could let go and embrace that truth.

593
00:54:08,823 --> 00:54:10,503
And then that set me free.

594
00:54:11,123 --> 00:54:18,030
And it was hard, you know, but it's been 20 years now and the thing that...

595
00:54:18,030 --> 00:54:21,923
empowered me into the long term was giving.

596
00:54:21,923 --> 00:54:24,885
If you give, you're not a victim.

597
00:54:24,885 --> 00:54:26,586
If you give, you're empowered.

598
00:54:26,586 --> 00:54:32,729
If you give, then it will transform your life in the most extraordinary of ways.

599
00:54:32,729 --> 00:54:35,830
And I'm not suggesting everyone has to become a drug and alcohol counsellor.

600
00:54:35,831 --> 00:54:41,734
You can give by having a chat with a lonely person.

601
00:54:41,874 --> 00:54:42,264
You know?

602
00:54:42,264 --> 00:54:45,556
You can give by going to see your neighbour.

603
00:54:45,556 --> 00:54:49,845
or whatever, but giving will set you free for your life.

604
00:54:49,845 --> 00:54:50,596
Wonderful.

605
00:54:50,596 --> 00:54:54,068
This has been just a fabulous conversation.

606
00:54:54,068 --> 00:54:55,878
It really, really has.

607
00:54:56,279 --> 00:55:01,502
I love the way the 11th man that is just sticking in my head so profoundly.

608
00:55:02,883 --> 00:55:11,128
And I go to absolutely, it's going to be the title of this podcast is something on the
line of Nick is the 11th man.

609
00:55:11,669 --> 00:55:13,313
Yeah, no truly.

610
00:55:13,313 --> 00:55:16,071
so it me sound kind of more creepy than I am.

611
00:55:16,666 --> 00:55:18,227
Yeah, no.

612
00:55:18,449 --> 00:55:21,714
Nick, this has been fab, as I said, really, really amazing.

613
00:55:21,714 --> 00:55:23,806
Where can people find out more about you?

614
00:55:23,806 --> 00:55:30,682
Because I'm sure there's some people who would love to chat with you and shine you shine
your torch on their feet.

615
00:55:30,682 --> 00:55:35,006
Yeah, well there's a link to me, my counselling bio.

616
00:55:35,006 --> 00:55:41,161
If anyone is looking for somebody helpful to work with, I'm there.

617
00:55:41,161 --> 00:55:49,877
And obviously what I like to do, just to begin with, is just start off with a helpful
chat.

618
00:55:50,738 --> 00:55:54,461
So if you just want to get in touch for a helpful chat and see if we can...

619
00:55:55,155 --> 00:55:59,869
work together and if I'd be helpful to you then follow the link.

620
00:56:00,290 --> 00:56:13,252
You can find me Nick Sheckley on Twitter where I talk about matters therapeutic but also a
whole bunch of other things and yeah that's that's kind of me.

621
00:56:13,252 --> 00:56:13,702
Fab.

622
00:56:13,702 --> 00:56:16,974
We'll put all that information in the show notes because it's very important.

623
00:56:17,356 --> 00:56:24,574
And lastly, the question I always like to ask people, what is your superpower that you've
got from turning your life around?

624
00:56:24,574 --> 00:56:25,605
Wow.

625
00:56:25,987 --> 00:56:30,373
I think it's being there with people, you know.

626
00:56:30,895 --> 00:56:34,241
And I'll describe very briefly before we finish what that's like.

627
00:56:34,241 --> 00:56:52,581
So sometimes when you are with somebody, a counselling client, and you've made the space
that they're in really, really safe for them, and it feels perhaps safer than anything is

628
00:56:52,581 --> 00:57:02,407
felt for a long, time, and they know that you're there to collaborate healthily with them,
they know that you're there to be Gandalf you know?

629
00:57:02,826 --> 00:57:04,641
to say is it this way or that way?

630
00:57:04,641 --> 00:57:05,264
What do you think?

631
00:57:05,264 --> 00:57:10,577
And sometimes they feel safe to tell you something.

632
00:57:10,577 --> 00:57:13,489
Sometimes it's something really very, very, very dark.

633
00:57:13,489 --> 00:57:18,098
And when you tell them, it's okay to say that, it's all right.

634
00:57:18,098 --> 00:57:21,754
And it's okay to shed the tears when they tell you it.

635
00:57:22,655 --> 00:57:28,457
And they feel safe for the first time to be the person that they really are.

636
00:57:28,858 --> 00:57:33,000
Then you can go to a very, very deep place with that person.

637
00:57:33,366 --> 00:57:36,523
And you're there not to take a single thing from

638
00:57:36,523 --> 00:57:40,640
And you're there not even to give anything to them other than time and space.

639
00:57:40,640 --> 00:57:43,335
So there you go, it's a two way street sometimes, it really is.

640
00:57:43,335 --> 00:57:44,846
Isn't it?

641
00:57:45,567 --> 00:57:46,257
Well, thank you.

642
00:57:46,257 --> 00:57:50,169
Thank you for a really profound conversation.

643
00:57:50,565 --> 00:58:00,217
I think this is going to be really interesting and I'm going to enjoy listening back to
this and sharing it with people because it's been very different to what I normally do,

644
00:58:00,217 --> 00:58:08,863
but that's been really profound and coming from your expertise and your knowledge and just
the depth of conversations you've had.

645
00:58:09,444 --> 00:58:11,416
You've just put such a gentle light on.

646
00:58:11,416 --> 00:58:13,868
It's okay, basically, isn't it?

647
00:58:13,868 --> 00:58:14,989
And it's your choice.

648
00:58:14,989 --> 00:58:17,751
And, you know, it is better on the other side.

649
00:58:17,751 --> 00:58:22,814
Yeah, it may be painful stepping across, but it is a bit easier when you're sober.

650
00:58:24,029 --> 00:58:25,789
It's been a real pleasure.

651
00:58:25,789 --> 00:58:26,989
I've loved talking to him.

652
00:58:26,989 --> 00:58:27,999
sure really have.

653
00:58:28,368 --> 00:58:30,687
Brilliant, well thank you ever so much Nick, that's grand.

654
00:58:31,975 --> 00:58:36,335
Thank you for listening to this episode of The Crucible: Conversations for the Curious.

655
00:58:36,335 --> 00:58:44,975
If these powerful stories of transformation resonated with you, be sure to like, subscribe
and share this show with anyone who you think could do with a dose of inspiration for

656
00:58:44,975 --> 00:58:45,915
their own journey.

657
00:58:45,915 --> 00:58:52,495
I would really appreciate it if you could make any comments on your favourite podcast
platform as well, that helps me reach more people.

658
00:58:52,495 --> 00:58:55,955
All the important links and information are in the show notes below.

659
00:58:55,955 --> 00:58:59,039
Thank you very much for listening and catch up with you soon.