Kevin: Welcome back.
I feel like I should do something special as the Stage Manager this week, Rob.
Rob: That's right.
You should do something quite theatrical.
Kevin: The, uh, podcast began in darkness, as it always does.
We are here to discuss the latest in the Star Trek universe with Subspace Radio.
It's me, Kevin,
Rob: and me Rob.
Kevin: And uh, yeah.
We are here to talk about season one, episode eight of Starfleet
Academy, The Life of the Stars,
Rob: Raise the curtain.
Spotlight Center stage.
Kevin: Hmm, it turns out is a reference to Our Town, which is a
play that I knew of, but have had never studied or read or seen before.
What was your familiarity with Our Town before this Rob?
Rob: Our Town is definitely a cultural milestone within
American culture especially.
It's a huge, hugely popular play, especially amongst, uh, uh,
within the high school community.
Kevin: I was gonna say, I'm not sure it is in itself a, a theater
behemoth, but it has a huge presence in in, in schools, as a teaching tool.
Rob: Uh, the way it is staged as a performance is very minimal.
So it's all done, all done through mime and bare sets and limited
Kevin: For a high school budget.
Rob: Perfect for high school budgets.
Um, it's about the sentimentality of that Americana lifestyle.
A small town like a day in the life.
So you've got elements of sort of like, uh, um, Dylan Thomas in
there and stuff like that, uh, from an American point of view.
So, um.
I remember seeing a version of it when I was in high school.
I went to the New South Wales state drama camp when I was in year 10, back
in the nineties, and what they had there was the high school, the Sydney
High School Theatre Ensemble, which was this elite group of high school drama
students, and they did a presentation.
Some of the students were at this state drama camp, and they put on a
performance of Our Town that they had recently presented, and it just blew
my mind, blew my mind that, you know, high school kids could do this type of
stuff, could do this type of theatre.
I've never, I've never done a performance of it.
Um, and I haven't seen that many since.
But, um, it's sort of like, it's sort of like known anywhere else,
but in America it is a huge thing.
Kevin: Yeah, it's also, uh, getting some, uh, airing in, uh, Wales at the moment,
strangely, uh, the Welsh National Theatre has just opened up with its very first
season of Our Town, uh, directed I believe by Michael Sheen also it, uh, it seems,
plays the Stage Manager in the show.
Uh, and yeah, it's being called out as like, you know, an an odd choice
for the Welsh National Theater to put on a piece of Americana as its first
performance, but by being odd, I think it it by being an odd choice, I think
it makes it an interesting choice and, and, and lets it explore things that this
text maybe wouldn't normally explore.
Rob: It being such a bold, uh, unusual choice to include elements
of theater and the dramatics within the Star Trek universe.
With any major franchise, it's always hard to find connections with
the performing arts because we in itself join into that franchise.
We become the characters ourselves, so we use our dramatic elements to
become Picard or become, uh, you know, um, Data or Sulu or anyone like that.
Kevin: Yeah.
Fiction within fiction is tricky.
It, it draws attention to the fact that you, yourself, are fiction when
you try to encompass a work like that.
Rob: To and have such a spec, normally, I mean, we've had a long.
Uh, history of connecting Star Trek with Shakespeare, especially within the,
uh, the movies with, uh, Leonard Nimoy loved a good Shakespearean reference,
in a Shakespeare in a Star Trek film.
But to have such a, something as specific as Our Town is, um, is a
fascinating, uh, angle to go with.
Kevin: Hmm.
Yes.
Well, let's take a step back from Our Town and talk about this episode in itself.
What did you think of The Life of the Stars, Rob?
Rob: Um, it, it, it caught up on me, especially the, uh, the, the B plot
of, uh, SAM and the Doctor that, uh, particularly worked, uh, for me, the
Kevin: uh, you must, you must, uh, have a soft spot for a, uh, long
way round plot from Doctor Who.
Rob: Oh, are you, are you, are you kidding me?
It's, uh, and it's always good to have a emotionally detached character who,
and, and certain events lead to the point where they have to, you know, let out the
reasons for why they are behaving the way they are, and we feel even more for them.
Um, and stellar work from our SAM actor, uh, doing incredible work
this week, as did Robert Picardo.
Kevin: Mm. Yeah, absolutely.
I loved it.
Uh, this was so good.
I've watched it twice now, and it made me cry both times.
Um, yeah, it's so good.
Uh, I, this is another one of those episodes where I feel like I almost
don't want to diminish it by pulling it apart on my podcast, uh, because it,
it was such a, um, a magical experience that, uh, gave me all the feels, but
yeah, really, really, really good.
Rob: And they used Tilly well, great to, it was worth the wait for Tilly.
Kevin: Yes.
I love wise Tilly.
Uh, it feels like this is the Tilly we were meant to have all along.
Rob: I was going to say that.
Kevin: It's, she has come, a like a long way in a very short period of time
when you think of what that character has been through from being a cadet
on Discovery in season one, getting whisked off to the future, and, um,
very quickly progressing, not just through her own career as an officer,
but into teaching future officers.
It's, it's a bit quick, I think, but she suits it so well and plays
it so well that I wanna look past it and, uh, just en enjoy her.
I do wish she could be the, the, uh, one more professor that we had
at this school on a regular basis, but also like great in small doses.
And so maybe if we only see her once a season or so, then, then so be it.
I think we'll relish it every time we do.
Rob: Definitely I got a little bit of a sense, like I got defensive
as you know, a drama nerd all these Starfleet, you know, jocks are, they're
going, oh, do we have to do this?
Oh my God, can't we just go do like simulators and stuff like that?
Oh my God.
And I'm going, you back off, all right?
Kevin: Theater is state craft.
Rob: Um, and it was, yeah, so the development that we never got with
Tilly and the place where her character should have been on Discovery, um, is,
is one of the big disappointments of, of Discovery as a whole, but, and especially
with this episode, you're going, the potential was there and what she could
have achieved as a, as an actor and
Kevin: Yeah, I see what you mean.
We were kind of robbed of the journey, but I feel like they're giving us the
destination anyway, and nice to be there.
Just the scene with when she arrived with Reno and uh, the chancellor,
um, in, in the chancellor's quarters and, you know, It's okay to love
and, and calling, calling themselves the women that time forgot.
And it was just delightful to like, yeah, have these, these women who have traveled
through time acknowledge the momentous distance they have come through time and
space to be where they are and to just to allow that to sit for a moment and be
acknowledged before going back to the, the quippy wisecracks, uh, was, it fun too.
Rob: Most definitely.
So this was also a, um, an episode of healing for Tarima, trying to deal
with her, uh, uh, trauma and her new state of mind and how she fits in with
everything and, uh, how she perceives her life and her career within Starfleet
and, um, and how that all connects to, um, the joy that is Our Town.
Kevin: I loved how they played with the format, which is something they've
done once or twice already this season of, of being, making the show
bend a little bit to the perspective of the person telling the story
and be a little non naturalistic.
And we got a bit of that here as the, the show itself, you know, it opens
with a monologue from the Doctor who we learn, we realize later is
kind of inhabiting the persona of the Stage manager from Our Town.
He's quoting the lines about the sunrise and, and, and that's
something that when I went back and looked at the play is there a lot.
Every time, every time the sun sets and the sun rises, the stage manager is there
talking, basically tucking everyone into bed with his words and then, and then
he's, he's the first one up before anyone else opens their eyes and, and that role
is put on the Doctor here at the start, and then very deftly, when the Doctor
chooses, finally, to step into the role of parent for SAM, it is handed to Ake in
a, in a single line of dialogue that if you're not paying attention closely, as
I wasn't on first viewing, you'd miss it.
But on second viewing, it is so delicious when she says to the
Doctor, it's time for you to stop telling the story and be a part of it.
I've got it from here, she says.
And the first time I saw the show, I, I was not entirely clear what she
meant by, I've got it from here, but it is revealed, what she's got is
the narration, the role of narrator.
And she, she narrates the rest of the episode from that point and these
delightful little bits of theater in our TV show, I really enjoyed.
Rob: Yeah, it's a, it's a real credit.
It's a, it's really clever writing, really beautiful writing and how to,
um, play with the format like that.
So, um, you can't really find any real criticisms with how the show is written,
because it's structured so beautifully.
So any criticism would be coming from a purely, you know, trolling point of view.
Uh, sitting there and taking it in as a piece of art and a
piece of, you know, television
Kevin: what, yeah, if this were a straight Star Trek episode, that
would played purely naturalistically, there are things about the plot
that I would be nitpicking with.
Like this, this concept that what SAM was lacking was a, uh, childhood
in order to be a resilient adult.
I'm not sure how much water that holds.
And I'm not sure what kind of childhood she can have on Kasq with just the Doctor.
Like, uh, will she have a high school bully on Kasq?
I don't know.
Um, what, what experiences does she have in those 17 years apart from running
through that garden and laughing with the Doctor that will actually promote
resilience that was not present otherwise?
Um, that sort of stuff is the stuff that, like, if you hold it too
tightly, it doesn't quite make sense.
But this, this show had the courage to hold it loosely and let it kind
of be there to be interpreted and enjoyed and take what you will
and find the meaning you will.
And it's okay
Rob: Yeah.
Kevin: and I like that too.
Rob: Yeah.
I saw it a bit as sort of like just literal time just to
feel and live those 17 years.
To feel that experience, not go through, you know, obviously it's a quite closed
environment, but to, to feel those, those years and that experience of
interactions in whatever capacity, um, uh, to build up to that point, to return.
Because as, as, as we knew when she first arrived, she was in the
appearance of, you know, or the, had the personality of a 17-year-old, but
she was only, you know, a couple of weeks, or, you know, yeah, days old.
So to have literally lived 17 years build up.
It'll be interesting to see if there is a change of characterization slightly
when, um, when we get her back in, back in, uh, full, full fatigues as it
were for the, for the remaining season.
Kevin: Yeah.
Uh, fun to have, uh, the Doctor's holographic family name checked.
Uh, in this
Rob: and shown!
Kevin: We talked about it just a few, uh, episodes ago.
Uh, the Belle who was tragically killed after a Parrises Squares accident.
Um, I, I felt very, very happy for us, Rob, that we had had found that
connection before it was even referenced.
Rob: See what I'm doing right here, Kevin, for those who are listening,
Kevin: Your finger is on the pulse of your own neck.
Rob: Um, because a part of me was there going, there has been a mention earlier,
possibly with something that went wrong with the Prodigy crew, um, that we kind of
get the imp impli implication of when SAM first had interactions with the Doctor.
But it's the smarter move to focus on the Doctor's, you know, you know,
trauma of dealing with the loss of his, you know, uh created daughter.
Um, and that Picardo is so good.
Picardo is so good.
He's such a great comedic actor, but he has those dramatic elements as well.
Um, and it's, you know, it's a credit to him that he's been able
to come back and they've given him something, you know, really, you
know, meaty to sink his teeth into.
Kevin: Yeah.
Yeah.
It's interesting to think back on the Prodigy Doctor now and, and see him
as like was, I guess he was kind of standoffish then, and it's because they
were writing him for, for comedy and the, like, I think they were leaning into the
fact that he is just a hologram in Uh, and, and, but because of that, they can
now tell this, this like deft thing of the reason he was so standoffish and he
wasn't a mentor to any of those kids, uh, in the way perhaps Hologram Janeway was
in that, uh, show, um, was because he was protecting himself from, from loss again.
Yeah.
Rob: Um, I love, there's some really beautiful compositions
of shots and color choices.
Like with on, on, Kasq, there was like a lot of black and
white with hints of color.
Kevin: It seems directly inspired by our, Our Town again.
Um, in the, in the shuttle, they gave us as audience members who they know
may not be familiar with Our Town, which I wasn't as I was watching it,
they give us just enough to understand the reference they're about to make.
They talk about how the, the Stage Manager, uh, sets things up in,
in a, uh, muted half light and how color does not appear until
someone is allowed to look back.
And then the very next scene, they are in a muted half light with no
color until we see SAM's memories coming out the back of her head.
And yeah, it is.
It's like, oh, yes, you, the, you are doing the thing you just described.
That must be a little weird to the characters who are, who are like, hang on,
I was just describing this, but it works for us as the audience, which is great.
Rob: All in all, um, I, I loved the episode.
Again, the, the high school drama stuff is, you know, evident
because that's what this show is.
Um, and so them being all teenager and going, I don't wanna do this stupid play,
kind of, you know, uh, annoyed me a little bit, but I was understanding what it was
achieving and there was some great, uh, developments there for these characters.
And Tilly did a great job of coming in and, um, you know,
getting them out of their funk.
Kevin: Just like in Our Town, I think some of the sweetest stuff here were
the little scenes that were just moments in the life, that were not necessary to
the story, but enriched the characters.
Um, Genesis looking after drunk Tarina after she comes back
from her close shave with Caleb.
Seeing, Tarina get to know SAM in their new shared quarters.
These little, these little scenes, I, uh, were some of my favorite in the show,
and they, they, they were allowed to be quiet and there were moments of silence
of characters looking at each other and I caught myself as an audience, kind of
like letting my breath out and going, wow, we are, we are being allowed to
sit here and live with these characters.
This, uh, to, to use a term I I used last week, it feels luxurious.
It feels like the kind of stuff we have not made time for in our Star
Trek lately, because it's been rush, rush, rush to the next plot point.
And, uh, yeah, I, I love the confidence that this show is showing
by spending its time this way,
Rob: Agreed.
Kevin: letting episodes be an hour and four minutes if that's what they need.
We, we've had really long episodes this season as well, which I've really enjoyed.
Rob: Yeah, I definitely appreciated the lack of the gimmick of being within a high
school situation and making it too flashy, to take those moments um, to really sink
in, so any of that annoyingness because they're just young people and I'm getting
too old and all young people annoy me, um, to that point of, yeah, those moments
of quiet, those moments of connection, those moments of compassion, those moments
that we haven't really had a chance within other Star Trek, like you said.
Um, it's, yeah, it's a bold decision and so, and it sneaks up on you.
Kevin: There's definitely lots of fun classroom hijinks here as well.
Like when Ocam gets assigned the role of Stage Manager and he's like snapping his
fingers and goes Sick, and it's just like,
you know, it's 2026 high school kids all over the place.
But, but that stuff is there too and, and, uh, is allowed to, we're allowed
to relish it for its own sake too.
The last thing I watched in preparation for this was actually
a production of Our Town.
Um, I found there is one on YouTube starring, um.
it's circa 2004 or, but it, uh, it has Paul Newman as the Stage Manager who
brings a lot of gravitas to that role.
Um, and it is, unlike a lot of these like filmed productions of
Our Town that are like they, they've reinterpreted it as a movie, this one
is very much staged as a stage show.
It, it, it is shot definitely for television and lit for television,
but everything happens on a stage with, with pieces of set moving
here and there and, and, you know, vignettes existing amongst each other.
Um, and yeah, I, I enjoyed it.
It's, uh, it's interesting watching a production that is now old enough to
be a bit retro on its own, producing a story from the 1940s that therefore has
its own second level of like looking back on it, it of a, of a script that
itself is kind of reflecting on the nature of American society at that time.
It felt like there were kind of three layers of, of, of
reflectiveness competing for each, uh, for attention with each other.
Uh, but I do, I did enjoy it, and it's free on YouTube.
So if anyone, uh, is listening to this going, I, I didn't quite
get what they were going for with the Our Town references, um.
I don't think it's mandatory viewing by any means; I think they give us everything
we need in this episode to understand what they're talking about, but it,
it's, it's an interesting play for sure.
It feels, you know, to, to Tilly calling it statecraft, it feels like a piece
of theater that is attempting to, set a definition for what good American
society, what, what, uh, you know, the small town life that we should be
aspiring to produce as good Americans is.
That's, my take of it, is that it was, it was a little bit prescriptive, but
not in any way that I disagree with.
So I was kind of really, like happy to go along with it, but at the
same time, I just did feel this kind of odd sense of this play is
telling us how to be as people.
Rob: I do love the fact that, of, you know, Star Trek does have a tendency
to have this almost naive mythologizing its own, uh, history and culture.
So sort of like, you know, it's wonderful watching, you know, Voyager and they
have hologram re representations of the guy who started Woodstock or,
you know, references to the past in, um, uh, uh, the journey home.
So to have this, this very singular play experience that is a part of the, the US
zeitgeist to become a part of this Star Trek myth of America, um, and that, well,
you know, of theater and society, but it's American society in some ways is, uh.
Kevin: Yeah, that was conspicuous too.
They never call this an American play or, or talk about
America was between two wars.
They say Earth was between two wars and they round the United States up to the
entire, uh, Earth in the same way that they do with every society in Star Trek.
It's like, this is the, this is the beach planet because it is entirely beach.
And the, the, the president of the beach is the president of the planet.
You know, the, the, is no, there is missing a, a level of scale
between the, the, yeah, the one country and the, the entire world.
They, they kind of collapse that upwards, uh, in Star Trek and they,
they do that to historical Earth here,
Rob: Yes.
And the, the importance of Our Town to the entire history of, of the Earth.
Kevin: Of the,
Earth.
Well, it's, that is funny 'cause like I think an American audience, you'd have a
pretty good chance that you have, you have studied Our Town in high school yourself,
but here in Australia and in other places around the world watching this
show, they would probably go Our Town?
Never heard of it.
Rob: Yeah.
Yeah.
And pretty much it's, it, it, especially, yeah, here in Australia,
it would only be known by, uh, the nerdiest of theater nerds.
Kevin: Yeah.
Yeah, yeah.
Hmm.
Well, well done, uh, well done Starfleet Academy.
I thought this was a triumph.
I, uh, I would happily accept this as our season finale,
but we've got two more to go.
Rob: Two more to go.
I think we need to resolve some issues with the, uh, a
certain, uh, uh, nasty character.
Kevin: Yes, it does seem that way.
And, uh, so before we, um, head off into the rest of this season, let's take a
moment to look at theater in Star Trek.
So you talked a bit there, Rob, about how Shakespeare is a
recurring element of, of Star Trek.
We've, we've on it recently in some of our, our, our movie chats, but, uh, yeah.
Let's, let's go, uh, a little more deeply into times that
we have seen the stage Star
Rob: I'm, I'm very intrigued to see, uh, I was intrigued to see how the world
of theater, the world of the stage, the world of acting has been presented
within the Star Trek world, because especially like we've talked about
within the movies, especially Star Trek VI, a little bit of Star Trek IV and
Star Trek II, they have that element of even, even the stories that are being
told are quite Shakespearean, want to use that, especially in Star Trek VI.
Um, you know, it's all Hamlet and Macbeth and even Richard III a little bit.
But, um, just to, to look at the down and dirty day-to-day process of being
in the theater and what putting a play on means and what it connects
to you as a person and a human being.
Um, I'm very interested.
I was interested to see the almost clinical, scientific kind of, you know,
utopian view of the world could fit the down and dirty and muddy and, uh, and,
and deliciously dramatic world of theater.
Uh, they seemed quite, you know, incongruous to me.
There's a, there's a juxtaposition between the two, but, um, but
yes, it was been fun to explore.
Kevin: Yeah.
Well, I'm gonna start us off with, uh, what I think must have, must be, uh, the
first appearance of theater in Star Trek, which is season one, episode 12 of the
original series, the Conscience of the
Rob: of the King!
Jinx.
Kevin: Jinx.
All right.
We've matched.
Had you seen this episode before, Rob?
Rob: I had not.
I had not seen this episode before.
I hadn't heard of it.
Um.
Kevin: a classic.
This is one of those episodes I feel like when I was growing up with Star
Trek and, uh, it was just watching whatever show they, whatever episode
they happened to put on as a rerun that week, The Conscience of the King
came up more often, than, average.
I feel like this is one that I've seen again and again.
Uh, I don't know if I just, I watched it on a particular, particularly susceptible
day where it, it burned itself into my synapses, but I feel like I can
see this episode with my eyes closed.
Rob: It's, um, things that stood out for me: how it's lit. It
is lit incredibly beautifully.
There's so much range of purples and, and greens and blues and
pinks, and it just, uh, it's just incredible for the, for the eye.
Kevin: They comment on the lighting at one point in this episode, when Kirk
is, uh, you know, taking Lenore on the, their date to the observation windows one
of, one of the very few peeks outside, like through a window, uh, that we
in, in Star Trek, the original series.
And, uh, she says, did you arrange the, the romantic lighting for me, especially?
Rob: Um, any, uh, yeah, should be candlelight as well.
I think she
Kevin: Yeah, yeah, yeah.
That's right.
Rob: Um, also, particularly, there's the, the, the enhanced CGI shots were a lot
more involved than in future ones that I've seen, which is kind of like a stock
standard, just recreation just a bit.
But this one had camera turns and um, and tilts and all this type
of stuff and, and long shots of getting in closer to the Enterprise.
I'm going, alright.
So they've put a little bit more money behind that.
Um, and notice that.
But what I noticed about the representation of the theater
world, especially this Shakespearean world, it was very classic.
So sets were almost like a high school set, but it was
like a fairytale type look.
So it's like old school castles, medieval type castles.
The costumes are so old school, medieval, they didn't wanna do any sort of
like anything other than this is old.
The big frilly shirts, big velvet jackets and uh, doublets
and all that type of stuff.
It was, uh, it was
Kevin: Completely by the numbers, Shakespeare.
Rob: And the performance style as well was quite classical
and, and all that type of stuff.
There was no room for any nuance here.
It was theater, old school.
You get, uh, love the shots behind the scenes with Kirk trying to
convince Riley to drop the gun.
Kevin: They had so many layers of red curtains back there.
Rob: who could, when did, did the acting troupe bring that with
them or is that on the Enterprise?
I know the sets they brought in.
Kevin: I remember when, uh, they called, uh, security to the theater.
They mentioned the ship's theater specifically.
Rob: As, as Kirk walks out, he goes, I'm heading to the ship's theater.
I'm going, that's, that's not a thing you
Kevin: The ship isn't big enough to have a theater.
Rob: You have just turned a rec room into a theater, okay?
Kevin: That's what I expect.
Rob: I think you're being a bit too presumptuous there.
Kevin: I liked how, um, non sci-fi this episode was.
It a day in the life of this world without any wild sci-fi things.
I mean, the, the most sci-fi thing that happens is, uh, I guess, this
reference to a colony that ran out of food, and, and so Kodos who became known
as kudos, the executioner, um, decided to snap his fingers, if you will, and
half of the colony in order to, uh, preserve the life of the other half.
And that, that, that, that is, uh, something that Kirk
witnessed in his childhood.
Like I suppose that's a bit, um, heightened slash sci-fi.
But as far as the events that take place here, you know, it's a ship
going from one port to another, picking up a, a traveling, uh,
troupe of thespians along the way.
There, there is nothing much that that could not happen in,
uh, an earthbound show here.
And I kind of like that, that the, the setting is used, um,
matter-of-factly rather than to, to hold up some improbable piece of plot.
Rob: Yeah, and it gave us a little bit of Kirk lore that I wasn't aware
of, that was sort of like a, a, a blank, uh, space within my knowledge.
So, yeah, this was 20 years ago.
So at this point he's in his, what, early thirties.
So yeah, he's saying he would've been a young, you know, young,
early teenager or you know, preteen.
Um, but it was giving almost the impression that he was a little bit older.
'cause Riley was there as well, but Riley even younger, so
Kevin: yeah.
Rob: so he would've been like under the age of 10 possibly?
But how long was Kirk on this colony?
Was he ba because he was born in Iowa?
We know about that.
Um, so.
Why was a early teenager preteen Kirk on this colony?
Very interesting to see.
And he didn't lose any family, it didn't seem to imply.
Yes.
Um, lots of questions and
Kevin: There's a bit of that stuff that, like Kirk lore that was
established in just one episode and never referenced again.
Rob: Yeah.
Kevin: Uh.
We talked about that in a previous episode of Strange New Worlds where there's a,
there's a disaster, uh, for Kirk that we know about that, uh, is either coming or
recently passed, uh, onboard the Farragut.
I think it is coming.
The, the Obsession disaster that shakes his confidence as a captain for a while.
Um, but yeah, just mentioned in one episode and never dealt with
again, so, yeah, not the first one.
Rob: No.
And um, yeah, it was very much dealing with a,
a very human, uh, type of situation.
It would be, it did feel like a lot of sci-fi from the sixties.
It happened with Doctor Who as well.
It feels like a remnant of World War II.
It's very much that that was still fresh in the minds of
the writers and of of society.
So those people who were escaping justice or hiding who weren't caught for the
Nuremberg trials or, you know, stories of Nazis, fleeing to Brazil, um, finding
sanctuary in, you know, South American countries and all that type of stuff.
So there's definitely a deep connection to, uh, war that was, you know,
modern, modern history at that time.
Kevin: Hmm.
Rob: I love the reveal of, and I could see it coming, 'cause
it was staged so beautifully.
But he's, you know, the opening cold sequence, uh, is in the theater and
Kirk's with, uh, his old friend Tom, uh, and Tom has only ever seen him.
Yes.
And he and Tom is only ever seen in profile, and it isn't until they, then,
after we go to the credits and we come back and he's in, in Tom's apartment
with his wife and he's still in profile.
And he goes, you know, can you move on from this?
And he turns and he reveals like his whole half of his face is covered in
this like black tape to cover it off.
He goes, I can never move on.
Kevin: It's so strange.
Yeah.
Yeah, obviously you know, it, it says a lot without saying anything at all,
that, but then hearing what actually happened on that colony that people
were put to death, it does not really explain what happened to his face, like,
Rob: Especially 'cause they talk about the fact they, they
kill them with with no pain.
Kevin: Yeah, yeah, exactly.
Rob: Yeah.
Of there going, all right, O Okay.
What's.
Kevin: Yeah.
Yeah.
It's uh, it's a strange one for sure.
Rob: Um, but I was kind of caught up in it 'cause I had never seen it before.
So I'm there going, all right, is it, is it, is it him, is it not?
And part of me was thinking, oh, there's something glaring
Kevin: They walked a fine line there.
Even when you see the two, like Kirk puts them side by side on the screen and
it's the same actor playing them both.
But you're still like, are they the same?
They, different.
That mustache is pretty wild on that one.
Maybe it is a different person.
Rob: And a part of me was going, well, maybe it could be, uh, the daughter.
And then you go, oh, no, okay, they're gonna do the whole thing.
It's, they're the same but not conclusive.
So maybe they'll do the whole thing and then at the end
they just go, no, it was her.
She did it whole time.
And I went, aha.
And that was a beautiful little scene, like the, like, Kodos going,
you know, I, that shadow of my past, I didn't want her to infect you.
You were my bright.
You
Kevin: moment.
Rob: and, and, and she doing classic 1960s, uh, gorgeous
actress turning mad and crazy!
Kevin: Just like, uh, lady Macbeth.
Rob: Lady Macbeth.
That's right.
Um, one thing I will note.
McCoy was very weird in this episode, like his first scene, he's
Kevin: Look, I'm drinking.
I'm drinking here, and if you're not with me, don't judge me for drinking.
Rob: and I'm there going, this is like episode 12.
Have they not figured out McCoy yet?
Because he's just, the whole scene, he's just going, let's have a drink.
And it wasn't until later on I go, okay, there's the McCoy we know, all right,
we have to get to the second scene.
I'm going,
Kevin: There's the McCoy we know, uh, recording logs about his patients
while they're standing background.
Rob: he's standing right.
And all the detail just gonna go.
'cause of course, Riley, parents were killed right front him.
I do hope he doesn't.
Oh, good lord, maybe he heard me.
You think McCoy?
Kevin: Oopsie.
Rob: You're meant to be a smart man.
You're a doctor for God's sake.
Kevin: Kevin Riley's good.
He's actually, he appears in two episodes, that character, in The Naked Time, the
one where they all get, uh, uh, you know, kind yeah sexy drunk, um, yeah.
And yeah, he's good.
He, uh, as a, as a day player, I guess he fits right in.
And, um, I really like the, the play back and forth with the rec deck, with Uhura
singing the song, and it, it creates this sense of life aboard the ship in
Rob: And we rarely s we, we rarely see that in, uh, TOS.
I'm just going, this is, they should do more of that.
It's like, if they did that in Discovery, I'm going do more of that.
Like Uhura with her musical instrument and just singing and she sounded great and it
was a way of keeping him, um, entertained.
'cause he was down to the lower levels.
I went, this is great.
If the whole show was, you know, not just focused on the, the, the main three
you could expend to have a little bit.
Kevin: So the theater here, um, I, I like the idea of the traveling troupe that,
uh, plays at Starfleet installations all around the galaxy that, uh, they move.
Rob: And they talk about the Galactic, Galactic Theatrical,
Kevin: yeah, yeah.
Rob: the Galactic Dramatic Society or something.
And they do a little speech at the start about, you know, to preserve the way that,
Kevin: Yeah.
Rob: stories were told in the past.
And, and I, I, I love that type of, you know, representation of keeping
culture, uh, as you know, alive.
And the, the, their responsibility is to travel from ship to
ship and travel the Galaxy.
It's, very old school.
Kevin: And later in the movies and Next Gen, it feels like every
second Starfleet officer is now a Shakespearean connoisseur.
Uh.
But back here in the original series, it was fun to see them kind
of plant that seed and you kind of get the sense that Kirk doesn't
really care about Shakespeare.
Like he is not moved by any of the quotes or, or anything like that.
He's like, yeah, whatever.
We're taking you to prison, you know?
And it, it is, it interesting here to see it, on the one hand, given
enough importance that apparently like these people's full-time job
is to tour Starfleet installations and keep Shakespeare alive.
But on the other hand, seeing Kirk kind of go, kind of be not moved by it,
but um, but this feels like it plants the seed for, sh Shakespeare as the,
as a touchpoint or a springing off a springboard for this story kind of
allows Shakespeare to grow in the Star Trek consciousness to the point where
it, it becomes much larger later on.
Rob: Agreed.
Kevin: Yeah.
I, I, I, I feel like I, I wonder if the, the big book of plays in Picard's quarters
would've been Shakespeare's Complete Works, if not for this episode, or if
this had chosen some other touchpoint of, of theatrical history, whether,
whether that's where we would've gone.
Um, yeah, this, this does feel like the, the start to me.
Rob: There's some great stuff in, in this ep of, yeah, we, you could
read into it and see how, um, this connection with Shakespeare,
does it start here for, for Kirk?
Um, and you know, Spock is the one who does a lot of the
Shakespeare in references or acknowledgements within the movies.
And here he's just very much focused on trying to solve the
riddle of what Kirk is doing.
'cause Kirk is very cold and cuts him off and going, this is my own business.
Kevin: Yeah, yeah, yeah.
I'm, uh, I'm, I'm making some questionable decisions and I'm keeping you out
of it, so it's entirely my fault.
That's fun little trope as well happens now and then when Kirk suddenly, suddenly
goes, uh, incommunicado from his own first officer and, uh, to watch them
test the trust between them is fun.
Rob: And the usual lead, lead man of the sixties, when McCoy comes in,
he goes, you want to talk about it?
Well, clearly you don't wanna talk about it.
You wanna say something about this woman you kinda liked?
Let's move forward.
Think you just told me then.
I'm going,
Kevin: You tell me everything I need to know.
Rob: You told everything I need to know.
And that's all right.
'cause men don't share their opinions or their feelings.
They share their opinions.
They don't share their feelings.
That's what a real man is, blah.
Talk, god— that's why I like Kirk in the movies better.
He talks.
Kevin: Yes, he's
Rob: Kirk comes.
Yeah, McCoy comes over and goes, what the hell's wrong?
Goes, I'm feeling old.
I'm feeling useless.
I'm feeling worn out.
Great.
That's what you do, Kirk.
You talk about your feelings.
You're learning.
Kevin: I'm
Rob: Not in the sixties, no.
Just gonna kiss this crazy woman I'm not gonna talk about it all.
That's what man does.
Kevin: what a man does.
I have another, uh, episode to talk about.
Rob: Yeah.
Yes
Kevin: episode 21.
Frame of
Rob: Frame of Mind.
Jinx.
Kevin: Double!
Double jinx!
Amazing!
Rob: What a great episode!
Kevin: I thought you like it.
Rob: my.
Not only because, um, the, the play that they're using is excerpts from
a Tom Stoppard play called, Good Boy.
Yeah,
Kevin: I had no idea it was a real world play.
Rob: It's elements of it.
They, so they've shifted it to sort of like, they've changed elements
of it, but it's a tom Stoppard play, incredible rider who passed
away sadly, uh, uh, uh, last year.
Um, Every Good Boy Deserves, uh, Favors.
Um, and it's a similar thing.
It's about, um, Russian, Russian, uh, uh, uh, prisoners of war who
are put into this, uh, trying to be convinced that they're insane.
And music plays a huge part of it.
And at this time, um, uh.
Patrick Stewart directed a production of it using cast
members from, uh, Next Generation.
So it had a premier, I believe, in Boston or Chicago.
And so I think, um, Brett Spiner and Jonathan Frakes were
actually in this production.
So they use elements of that in, um, in Frame of Mind.
Kevin: Wow.
That's amazing.
I had no idea.
I, I thought it felt a little One Flew Over The Cuckoo's Nest to
Rob: Yes.
Kevin: of the, uh, the arguably sane man trapped in an insane asylum.
Rob: That cold opener, which is, you know, not showing Data, but
it's clearly Brent Spiner's voice.
got Riker going insane.
And the beautiful moment, which I love as an actor, as a performer,
when they break it and he goes and he puts his hand on his head and he goes,
I'm sorry, what's that line again?
You go ah!
This is, this is it Star Trek, reality, drama, uh, play, you know,
playwriting, all of it comes together and gone, oh, this is, this is
gonna be an episode I'm gonna love.
Kevin: Jonathan Frakes did a good job with this.
I feel like he's a, uh, it's a fine line.
He often, Jonathan Frakes often talks about disparagingly about his own acting
skill that he, he is a, he is a stand up straight and say your line sort of actor.
But here he is being asked to play a Starfleet officer being asked to be
an amateur actor, and so showing the cracks of that performance and his
limitations, as Riker's limitations as an actor, uh, and that, that's a fine line.
I, I think he does a pretty good job of it here.
Rob: I think so, I'm, I, look, I am a huge fan of Jonathan Frakes
and I love how, uh, humble he is.
And like, especially 'cause he's surrounded himself for decades
now with, you know, Brent Spiner, who's an incredible, incredible
actor and especially, you know, the great Patrick Stewart.
So he never elevates himself at the same level as them.
He just goes, oh look, I'm just a, I was just a soap opera actor.
I just walk and talk and show up and know the
Kevin: Yeah.
Rob: Um, but within the format of, uh, Next Gen him being that, uh, younger,
more active number one, it gave him a lot more, you know, romantic scenes, a
lot more action scenes, uh, that Kirk would usually have done in the original
series, but also have these psychological episodes where their number one is
going down to do a covert operation at the same time as putting on an amdram
performance by the ship's doctor.
Kevin: Oh no, you, you've got a few days before the, uh, the mission.
Um, so you can definitely be in the play first.
Rob: can do opening night of the play.
Kevin: How these people spend their time is, is very funny.
Yes, I agree.
I'm a sucker for these, these brain teaser episodes where you're not
sure what's real and we revisit the same moments again and again.
It was very Cause and Effect in that way.
And, and this was one of the episodes written under the auspices
of Brannon Bragga, who is master of this kind of storytelling, of
like you second guessing yourself.
Uh, uh, yeah, I really enjoy that.
Rob: it's very much of a bygone era, this type of psychological
drama because we have come so much further within our understanding of
psychology of, uh, wellbeing of mental health and the definitions of, you
know, uh, uh, uh, neuro spiciness as we call it, um, as I call it.
Um, and so this is very much of a time of that eighties, nineties with
that almost naive dramatization, uh, and especially putting it within the
confines of a, of a play as well.
So, it almost heightens it to that point of theatricality.
I mean, I'm a huge comic book fan, uh, and uh, Batman fan as well.
And the whole riddle of Batman's villains, uh, uh, all psychologically damaged or
traumatized people, and as a kid you're there going, oh, isn't it so exciting?
This good person, just one bad day sends them crazy and turns
them into a super villain?
And then when you get older and you, and especially you go, okay, well
let's look at actually what this means from a psychological point of view and
psychology and psychiatry, mental health and treatment and all that type of stuff.
So it's, it's not disrespectful in this episode, but there is a
heightened dramatization for that case of what is reality what isn't.
And certainly a case of, uh, old school treatment in a, um, in a
mental health facility was never, was not back in the day, was not
as, um, understanding as it is now.
Kevin: It's, uh, yeah, it's such a well done version of what it is going for here.
The use of the play at like, I feel like that final time where Riker is kind of
teasing it apart and figuring out what's going on, and he starts to play with it
and he's, he's, he shouts you are lying and it gets a, a round of applause and
then he does a bigger one they stand up and give him a standing ovation
and then he breaks the entire reality.
And, and, and that stuff of like the, the, the theatrical elements highlight
the climax of this episode that I, I, I, I find it really enjoyable.
Rob: Yes, and turning the metaphors into, into, you know, real visual effects.
So he's literally shattering the walls and breaking down this deception in
Kevin: What did you think of those shattering effects,
those, uh, those 1990s,
Rob: Love
Kevin: video effects?
Rob: Love it.
Love it.
I'm there going, that doesn't need to be updated at all.
You're right, you're
Kevin: When guy breaks apart and he goes, what just happened to him?
It's so good.
Rob: Um, but I love the fact that within this, what you could do with this type
of drama is they created a whole world, a whole reality, even though it was.
So you, you found out a little bit about the, the inmates within this
delusion, guards their position of how and the history, like the guard
saying the history of when we brought you in, you had blood on hands and the
relationship between the guards and um the patients that was fleshed out.
Kevin: And the other patients, whether they're delusional or not, knowing
about Starfleet and being able to talk about starships and, and, and,
and, ranks and things like that.
Yeah.
It really, it really is, uh, fleshed out in a, in a delightful way.
Yeah.
Rob: It's always, always great when you have one of the greatest actors of the
last a hundred years, Patrick Stewart sitting there and they're going, well,
I'm glad that you are doing it 'cause I don't want to be in Beverly's play.
That's
Kevin: It was, yes, it was conspicuous how little acting, uh, Picard
got to do in this episode about
Rob: Just sitting in the audience stone face.
even when claps he stone face.
Kevin: Yeah.
Rob: And a beautiful moment at the end when everything is he, you know,
Riker has got himself out of this situation and, uh, they go, well,
we're striking the set tomorrow.
And he goes, no, no, no.
It's something I need to do.
And the final shot of him is tearing down the set, ripping it
down and going, wonderful stuff.
Kevin: Yeah.
Oh, it's so good.
This one's a Yeah.
There's nothing wrong with this episode at all.
Rob: No, not at all.
Kevin: This is, this is peak Star Trek: The Next Generation.
When they were telling these stories that were within the world, but they were
about the characters, like these character based stories within this very rich world
that they had built up after six seasons.
Just seeing the dynamics between Riker and Troi, the fact that when
you know Riker gets freaked out, it.
It doesn't cut to, oh, I better make an appointment with the ship's counselor.
It cuts to him and Troi at the bar in Ten Forward mid-conversation, this shorthand
that of course, he would go to talk to her and there would be no beating about the
bush because they know each other so well.
They would jump straight into it, and because they have such a clo close ship.
Relationship.
The, the run in with Data in the hallway where he congratulates him on his
improv, uh, for, for a truly realistic portrayal of multi-infarct dementia.
It is all sitting on six seasons of character building and world
building that lets us do these fun things, uh, with very little setup.
Um, and yeah, it's so rewarding to watch peak, peak TNG.
Rob: And like Conscience of the King, very little is focused on sci-fi, really.
It's, it's, it's a very psychological based drama, um, and suspense story.
And there's elements of sort, like,
Kevin: an alien race is introduced but not really commented on.
We, we are left to infer what kind of aliens they are.
Just the, the machine that projects parts of Riker's psyche, which we accept as
a potential sci-fi thing, but turns out to be part of the delusion all along.
Yeah.
So yeah, the great stuff.
Rob: And so like there's, you know, the government has collapsed and
so they're going to this world to find out what's going on that could
be happening on Earth, that could, you it's that type of stuff isn't.
It's sci-fi is at its best when it's dealing with issues of, you know,
our time that we can connect with.
And, um, I just love the fact that the staging as well, like watching,
uh, Conscience of the King and then watching Frame of Mind and the
staging is set up very much the same.
So
Kevin: Yeah, they're reusing a room that's normally something else.
Yeah.
Rob: Even, yeah, 150 years or however many years later, they,
they don't know how to do theater.
Kevin: Yeah.
Rob: just turn this function, this function room, and in, so
they at least they have tiered
Kevin: To be fair, a lot of theater is that way too these days, Rob.
Rob: Lot of independent theater, yes.
Yeah, yeah, yeah.
The fact that they have tiered as opposed just all on the one level.
Kevin: Yeah.
Rob: Um, I'm very impressed that they'll go, well, at least we need to have
it on, on a raised stage at point,
Kevin: We need to replicate some rostra.
Rob: But the lighting is just pure, just one light, no color, no tone at all.
Just yeah.
Lights on.
Lights off.
Kevin: We had exact match this week,
Rob: uh, I think that's the first time.
Kevin: Yeah.
Rob: That is the first time we, uh, have matched that way.
Uh, which shows, uh, how precise, um, how limited there are in the range
of, of theater within Star Trek.
There's also the beautiful episode, which we have talked about before in Prodigy,
where they do a theatrical representation of what Starfleet meets to them in
Kevin: All the World's a Stage.
Rob: Yes.
Yeah, yeah.
Yes.
But we have talked about that one before.
Um, and at one point I would love to see a, uh, the full Klingon version of Hamlet.
Kevin: Very good, or at least the opera that ends with three inches
of blood sloshing around the
Rob: That's right.
J Tilly go.
Well that was a lot of blood.
you Jay-Den.
Lot of murder and a lot blood in those Klingon
Kevin: Snap,
Rob: Snap, snap, snap.