1 00:00:08,901 --> 00:00:10,755 Kevin: Welcome back. 2 00:00:11,445 --> 00:00:15,285 I feel like I should do something special as the Stage Manager this week, Rob. 3 00:00:15,688 --> 00:00:16,498 Rob: That's right. 4 00:00:16,498 --> 00:00:18,358 You should do something quite theatrical. 5 00:00:19,380 --> 00:00:23,040 Kevin: The, uh, podcast began in darkness, as it always does. 6 00:00:24,150 --> 00:00:29,460 We are here to discuss the latest in the Star Trek universe with Subspace Radio. 7 00:00:29,460 --> 00:00:30,600 It's me, Kevin, 8 00:00:31,288 --> 00:00:32,128 Rob: and me Rob. 9 00:00:32,790 --> 00:00:34,050 Kevin: And uh, yeah. 10 00:00:34,080 --> 00:00:37,670 We are here to talk about season one, episode eight of Starfleet 11 00:00:37,800 --> 00:00:40,170 Academy, The Life of the Stars, 12 00:00:40,493 --> 00:00:41,848 Rob: Raise the curtain. 13 00:00:42,005 --> 00:00:43,430 Spotlight Center stage. 14 00:00:44,062 --> 00:00:48,442 Kevin: Hmm, it turns out is a reference to Our Town, which is a 15 00:00:48,442 --> 00:00:55,162 play that I knew of, but have had never studied or read or seen before. 16 00:00:55,282 --> 00:00:59,032 What was your familiarity with Our Town before this Rob? 17 00:00:59,518 --> 00:01:03,838 Rob: Our Town is definitely a cultural milestone within 18 00:01:04,258 --> 00:01:06,298 American culture especially. 19 00:01:06,688 --> 00:01:13,138 It's a huge, hugely popular play, especially amongst, uh, uh, 20 00:01:13,528 --> 00:01:15,153 within the high school community. 21 00:01:15,450 --> 00:01:20,190 Kevin: I was gonna say, I'm not sure it is in itself a, a theater 22 00:01:20,190 --> 00:01:26,370 behemoth, but it has a huge presence in in, in schools, as a teaching tool. 23 00:01:27,028 --> 00:01:31,168 Rob: Uh, the way it is staged as a performance is very minimal. 24 00:01:31,288 --> 00:01:37,138 So it's all done, all done through mime and bare sets and limited 25 00:01:37,545 --> 00:01:38,685 Kevin: For a high school budget. 26 00:01:39,253 --> 00:01:40,873 Rob: Perfect for high school budgets. 27 00:01:40,903 --> 00:01:45,553 Um, it's about the sentimentality of that Americana lifestyle. 28 00:01:45,703 --> 00:01:47,563 A small town like a day in the life. 29 00:01:47,563 --> 00:01:51,133 So you've got elements of sort of like, uh, um, Dylan Thomas in 30 00:01:51,133 --> 00:01:54,373 there and stuff like that, uh, from an American point of view. 31 00:01:54,373 --> 00:01:55,423 So, um. 32 00:01:55,713 --> 00:01:59,643 I remember seeing a version of it when I was in high school. 33 00:01:59,673 --> 00:02:05,013 I went to the New South Wales state drama camp when I was in year 10, back 34 00:02:05,013 --> 00:02:09,663 in the nineties, and what they had there was the high school, the Sydney 35 00:02:09,663 --> 00:02:14,373 High School Theatre Ensemble, which was this elite group of high school drama 36 00:02:14,373 --> 00:02:16,413 students, and they did a presentation. 37 00:02:16,623 --> 00:02:21,453 Some of the students were at this state drama camp, and they put on a 38 00:02:21,453 --> 00:02:24,660 performance of Our Town that they had recently presented, and it just blew 39 00:02:24,660 --> 00:02:29,010 my mind, blew my mind that, you know, high school kids could do this type of 40 00:02:29,010 --> 00:02:30,440 stuff, could do this type of theatre. 41 00:02:31,020 --> 00:02:34,650 I've never, I've never done a performance of it. 42 00:02:34,710 --> 00:02:37,320 Um, and I haven't seen that many since. 43 00:02:37,680 --> 00:02:43,110 But, um, it's sort of like, it's sort of like known anywhere else, 44 00:02:43,110 --> 00:02:45,420 but in America it is a huge thing. 45 00:02:45,737 --> 00:02:52,187 Kevin: Yeah, it's also, uh, getting some, uh, airing in, uh, Wales at the moment, 46 00:02:52,277 --> 00:02:59,387 strangely, uh, the Welsh National Theatre has just opened up with its very first 47 00:02:59,387 --> 00:03:07,687 season of Our Town, uh, directed I believe by Michael Sheen also it, uh, it seems, 48 00:03:07,687 --> 00:03:09,997 plays the Stage Manager in the show. 49 00:03:10,477 --> 00:03:15,367 Uh, and yeah, it's being called out as like, you know, an an odd choice 50 00:03:15,367 --> 00:03:20,632 for the Welsh National Theater to put on a piece of Americana as its first 51 00:03:20,632 --> 00:03:25,222 performance, but by being odd, I think it it by being an odd choice, I think 52 00:03:25,222 --> 00:03:29,632 it makes it an interesting choice and, and, and lets it explore things that this 53 00:03:29,632 --> 00:03:33,052 text maybe wouldn't normally explore. 54 00:03:33,260 --> 00:03:38,271 Rob: It being such a bold, uh, unusual choice to include elements 55 00:03:38,271 --> 00:03:41,361 of theater and the dramatics within the Star Trek universe. 56 00:03:41,361 --> 00:03:46,251 With any major franchise, it's always hard to find connections with 57 00:03:46,311 --> 00:03:50,751 the performing arts because we in itself join into that franchise. 58 00:03:51,021 --> 00:03:55,581 We become the characters ourselves, so we use our dramatic elements to 59 00:03:55,581 --> 00:04:02,211 become Picard or become, uh, you know, um, Data or Sulu or anyone like that. 60 00:04:02,635 --> 00:04:02,855 Kevin: Yeah. 61 00:04:02,855 --> 00:04:04,638 Fiction within fiction is tricky. 62 00:04:04,658 --> 00:04:08,048 It, it draws attention to the fact that you, yourself, are fiction when 63 00:04:08,048 --> 00:04:09,479 you try to encompass a work like that. 64 00:04:09,529 --> 00:04:12,851 Rob: To and have such a spec, normally, I mean, we've had a long. 65 00:04:13,761 --> 00:04:18,741 Uh, history of connecting Star Trek with Shakespeare, especially within the, 66 00:04:18,741 --> 00:04:24,141 uh, the movies with, uh, Leonard Nimoy loved a good Shakespearean reference, 67 00:04:24,141 --> 00:04:26,571 in a Shakespeare in a Star Trek film. 68 00:04:27,021 --> 00:04:31,491 But to have such a, something as specific as Our Town is, um, is a 69 00:04:31,491 --> 00:04:33,591 fascinating, uh, angle to go with. 70 00:04:34,013 --> 00:04:34,643 Kevin: Hmm. 71 00:04:34,703 --> 00:04:35,063 Yes. 72 00:04:35,063 --> 00:04:40,523 Well, let's take a step back from Our Town and talk about this episode in itself. 73 00:04:40,523 --> 00:04:42,593 What did you think of The Life of the Stars, Rob? 74 00:04:43,461 --> 00:04:49,791 Rob: Um, it, it, it caught up on me, especially the, uh, the, the B plot 75 00:04:49,911 --> 00:04:56,631 of, uh, SAM and the Doctor that, uh, particularly worked, uh, for me, the 76 00:04:57,278 --> 00:05:00,728 Kevin: uh, you must, you must, uh, have a soft spot for a, uh, long 77 00:05:00,728 --> 00:05:03,368 way round plot from Doctor Who. 78 00:05:04,521 --> 00:05:06,081 Rob: Oh, are you, are you, are you kidding me? 79 00:05:06,081 --> 00:05:12,071 It's, uh, and it's always good to have a emotionally detached character who, 80 00:05:12,071 --> 00:05:17,261 and, and certain events lead to the point where they have to, you know, let out the 81 00:05:17,261 --> 00:05:21,971 reasons for why they are behaving the way they are, and we feel even more for them. 82 00:05:22,061 --> 00:05:27,251 Um, and stellar work from our SAM actor, uh, doing incredible work 83 00:05:27,251 --> 00:05:28,251 this week, as did Robert Picardo. 84 00:05:29,083 --> 00:05:30,793 Kevin: Mm. Yeah, absolutely. 85 00:05:30,793 --> 00:05:31,663 I loved it. 86 00:05:31,783 --> 00:05:34,783 Uh, this was so good. 87 00:05:34,783 --> 00:05:37,363 I've watched it twice now, and it made me cry both times. 88 00:05:37,928 --> 00:05:39,908 Um, yeah, it's so good. 89 00:05:39,938 --> 00:05:43,658 Uh, I, this is another one of those episodes where I feel like I almost 90 00:05:43,658 --> 00:05:47,978 don't want to diminish it by pulling it apart on my podcast, uh, because it, 91 00:05:47,978 --> 00:05:54,128 it was such a, um, a magical experience that, uh, gave me all the feels, but 92 00:05:54,128 --> 00:05:55,718 yeah, really, really, really good. 93 00:05:55,926 --> 00:05:59,646 Rob: And they used Tilly well, great to, it was worth the wait for Tilly. 94 00:05:59,903 --> 00:06:00,353 Kevin: Yes. 95 00:06:00,353 --> 00:06:01,943 I love wise Tilly. 96 00:06:02,063 --> 00:06:05,603 Uh, it feels like this is the Tilly we were meant to have all along. 97 00:06:06,263 --> 00:06:07,203 Rob: I was going to say that. 98 00:06:07,443 --> 00:06:11,303 Kevin: It's, she has come, a like a long way in a very short period of time 99 00:06:11,303 --> 00:06:14,978 when you think of what that character has been through from being a cadet 100 00:06:15,503 --> 00:06:23,063 on Discovery in season one, getting whisked off to the future, and, um, 101 00:06:23,093 --> 00:06:27,233 very quickly progressing, not just through her own career as an officer, 102 00:06:27,233 --> 00:06:29,813 but into teaching future officers. 103 00:06:30,053 --> 00:06:35,513 It's, it's a bit quick, I think, but she suits it so well and plays 104 00:06:35,513 --> 00:06:39,593 it so well that I wanna look past it and, uh, just en enjoy her. 105 00:06:39,593 --> 00:06:45,893 I do wish she could be the, the, uh, one more professor that we had 106 00:06:45,893 --> 00:06:51,593 at this school on a regular basis, but also like great in small doses. 107 00:06:51,593 --> 00:06:55,523 And so maybe if we only see her once a season or so, then, then so be it. 108 00:06:55,523 --> 00:06:57,173 I think we'll relish it every time we do. 109 00:06:58,236 --> 00:07:01,566 Rob: Definitely I got a little bit of a sense, like I got defensive 110 00:07:01,566 --> 00:07:07,791 as you know, a drama nerd all these Starfleet, you know, jocks are, they're 111 00:07:07,791 --> 00:07:09,231 going, oh, do we have to do this? 112 00:07:09,231 --> 00:07:12,501 Oh my God, can't we just go do like simulators and stuff like that? 113 00:07:12,501 --> 00:07:13,341 Oh my God. 114 00:07:13,491 --> 00:07:15,111 And I'm going, you back off, all right? 115 00:07:16,433 --> 00:07:17,723 Kevin: Theater is state craft. 116 00:07:20,421 --> 00:07:24,471 Rob: Um, and it was, yeah, so the development that we never got with 117 00:07:24,471 --> 00:07:29,931 Tilly and the place where her character should have been on Discovery, um, is, 118 00:07:29,961 --> 00:07:36,231 is one of the big disappointments of, of Discovery as a whole, but, and especially 119 00:07:36,231 --> 00:07:39,501 with this episode, you're going, the potential was there and what she could 120 00:07:39,501 --> 00:07:41,571 have achieved as a, as an actor and 121 00:07:41,738 --> 00:07:43,358 Kevin: Yeah, I see what you mean. 122 00:07:43,358 --> 00:07:46,508 We were kind of robbed of the journey, but I feel like they're giving us the 123 00:07:46,508 --> 00:07:49,928 destination anyway, and nice to be there. 124 00:07:51,008 --> 00:07:56,583 Just the scene with when she arrived with Reno and uh, the chancellor, 125 00:07:57,163 --> 00:08:01,753 um, in, in the chancellor's quarters and, you know, It's okay to love 126 00:08:01,753 --> 00:08:05,563 and, and calling, calling themselves the women that time forgot. 127 00:08:05,563 --> 00:08:10,423 And it was just delightful to like, yeah, have these, these women who have traveled 128 00:08:10,423 --> 00:08:16,963 through time acknowledge the momentous distance they have come through time and 129 00:08:16,963 --> 00:08:21,133 space to be where they are and to just to allow that to sit for a moment and be 130 00:08:21,133 --> 00:08:26,473 acknowledged before going back to the, the quippy wisecracks, uh, was, it fun too. 131 00:08:26,904 --> 00:08:27,594 Rob: Most definitely. 132 00:08:27,624 --> 00:08:32,064 So this was also a, um, an episode of healing for Tarima, trying to deal 133 00:08:32,064 --> 00:08:37,554 with her, uh, uh, trauma and her new state of mind and how she fits in with 134 00:08:37,554 --> 00:08:43,654 everything and, uh, how she perceives her life and her career within Starfleet 135 00:08:44,394 --> 00:08:49,464 and, um, and how that all connects to, um, the joy that is Our Town. 136 00:08:50,545 --> 00:08:55,535 Kevin: I loved how they played with the format, which is something they've 137 00:08:55,535 --> 00:09:00,445 done once or twice already this season of, of being, making the show 138 00:09:00,835 --> 00:09:04,465 bend a little bit to the perspective of the person telling the story 139 00:09:04,465 --> 00:09:07,045 and be a little non naturalistic. 140 00:09:07,075 --> 00:09:12,655 And we got a bit of that here as the, the show itself, you know, it opens 141 00:09:12,655 --> 00:09:18,025 with a monologue from the Doctor who we learn, we realize later is 142 00:09:18,025 --> 00:09:22,855 kind of inhabiting the persona of the Stage manager from Our Town. 143 00:09:22,855 --> 00:09:28,095 He's quoting the lines about the sunrise and, and, and that's 144 00:09:28,095 --> 00:09:31,575 something that when I went back and looked at the play is there a lot. 145 00:09:31,575 --> 00:09:36,285 Every time, every time the sun sets and the sun rises, the stage manager is there 146 00:09:36,285 --> 00:09:41,145 talking, basically tucking everyone into bed with his words and then, and then 147 00:09:41,595 --> 00:09:46,455 he's, he's the first one up before anyone else opens their eyes and, and that role 148 00:09:46,455 --> 00:09:51,075 is put on the Doctor here at the start, and then very deftly, when the Doctor 149 00:09:51,795 --> 00:09:57,285 chooses, finally, to step into the role of parent for SAM, it is handed to Ake in 150 00:09:57,285 --> 00:10:01,515 a, in a single line of dialogue that if you're not paying attention closely, as 151 00:10:01,515 --> 00:10:04,365 I wasn't on first viewing, you'd miss it. 152 00:10:04,665 --> 00:10:07,635 But on second viewing, it is so delicious when she says to the 153 00:10:07,635 --> 00:10:10,545 Doctor, it's time for you to stop telling the story and be a part of it. 154 00:10:10,845 --> 00:10:13,635 I've got it from here, she says. 155 00:10:13,695 --> 00:10:17,625 And the first time I saw the show, I, I was not entirely clear what she 156 00:10:17,625 --> 00:10:22,125 meant by, I've got it from here, but it is revealed, what she's got is 157 00:10:22,125 --> 00:10:24,015 the narration, the role of narrator. 158 00:10:24,015 --> 00:10:28,455 And she, she narrates the rest of the episode from that point and these 159 00:10:28,455 --> 00:10:33,675 delightful little bits of theater in our TV show, I really enjoyed. 160 00:10:34,933 --> 00:10:36,793 Rob: Yeah, it's a, it's a real credit. 161 00:10:36,823 --> 00:10:40,633 It's a, it's really clever writing, really beautiful writing and how to, 162 00:10:41,233 --> 00:10:43,453 um, play with the format like that. 163 00:10:43,453 --> 00:10:51,193 So, um, you can't really find any real criticisms with how the show is written, 164 00:10:51,193 --> 00:10:53,113 because it's structured so beautifully. 165 00:10:53,383 --> 00:10:57,973 So any criticism would be coming from a purely, you know, trolling point of view. 166 00:10:58,063 --> 00:11:02,713 Uh, sitting there and taking it in as a piece of art and a 167 00:11:02,713 --> 00:11:04,783 piece of, you know, television 168 00:11:05,055 --> 00:11:08,055 Kevin: what, yeah, if this were a straight Star Trek episode, that 169 00:11:08,055 --> 00:11:12,585 would played purely naturalistically, there are things about the plot 170 00:11:12,645 --> 00:11:15,615 that I would be nitpicking with. 171 00:11:16,005 --> 00:11:22,365 Like this, this concept that what SAM was lacking was a, uh, childhood 172 00:11:22,365 --> 00:11:25,065 in order to be a resilient adult. 173 00:11:25,125 --> 00:11:27,375 I'm not sure how much water that holds. 174 00:11:27,765 --> 00:11:32,175 And I'm not sure what kind of childhood she can have on Kasq with just the Doctor. 175 00:11:32,175 --> 00:11:36,350 Like, uh, will she have a high school bully on Kasq? 176 00:11:36,390 --> 00:11:37,060 I don't know. 177 00:11:37,450 --> 00:11:43,180 Um, what, what experiences does she have in those 17 years apart from running 178 00:11:43,180 --> 00:11:47,170 through that garden and laughing with the Doctor that will actually promote 179 00:11:47,170 --> 00:11:49,540 resilience that was not present otherwise? 180 00:11:50,035 --> 00:11:54,085 Um, that sort of stuff is the stuff that, like, if you hold it too 181 00:11:54,085 --> 00:11:56,395 tightly, it doesn't quite make sense. 182 00:11:56,395 --> 00:12:02,125 But this, this show had the courage to hold it loosely and let it kind 183 00:12:02,125 --> 00:12:05,815 of be there to be interpreted and enjoyed and take what you will 184 00:12:05,815 --> 00:12:07,525 and find the meaning you will. 185 00:12:07,525 --> 00:12:08,395 And it's okay 186 00:12:09,223 --> 00:12:09,703 Rob: Yeah. 187 00:12:09,985 --> 00:12:11,005 Kevin: and I like that too. 188 00:12:11,713 --> 00:12:12,013 Rob: Yeah. 189 00:12:12,013 --> 00:12:16,423 I saw it a bit as sort of like just literal time just to 190 00:12:16,423 --> 00:12:19,423 feel and live those 17 years. 191 00:12:20,263 --> 00:12:24,013 To feel that experience, not go through, you know, obviously it's a quite closed 192 00:12:24,013 --> 00:12:28,658 environment, but to, to feel those, those years and that experience of 193 00:12:29,563 --> 00:12:35,143 interactions in whatever capacity, um, uh, to build up to that point, to return. 194 00:12:35,143 --> 00:12:38,503 Because as, as, as we knew when she first arrived, she was in the 195 00:12:38,503 --> 00:12:43,993 appearance of, you know, or the, had the personality of a 17-year-old, but 196 00:12:43,993 --> 00:12:48,973 she was only, you know, a couple of weeks, or, you know, yeah, days old. 197 00:12:49,393 --> 00:12:53,293 So to have literally lived 17 years build up. 198 00:12:53,293 --> 00:12:57,103 It'll be interesting to see if there is a change of characterization slightly 199 00:12:57,403 --> 00:13:03,763 when, um, when we get her back in, back in, uh, full, full fatigues as it 200 00:13:03,763 --> 00:13:05,443 were for the, for the remaining season. 201 00:13:05,940 --> 00:13:06,570 Kevin: Yeah. 202 00:13:06,660 --> 00:13:12,090 Uh, fun to have, uh, the Doctor's holographic family name checked. 203 00:13:12,150 --> 00:13:12,780 Uh, in this 204 00:13:12,848 --> 00:13:13,508 Rob: and shown! 205 00:13:13,830 --> 00:13:16,470 Kevin: We talked about it just a few, uh, episodes ago. 206 00:13:16,470 --> 00:13:22,290 Uh, the Belle who was tragically killed after a Parrises Squares accident. 207 00:13:22,920 --> 00:13:28,230 Um, I, I felt very, very happy for us, Rob, that we had had found that 208 00:13:28,230 --> 00:13:30,390 connection before it was even referenced. 209 00:13:31,003 --> 00:13:33,463 Rob: See what I'm doing right here, Kevin, for those who are listening, 210 00:13:33,630 --> 00:13:36,060 Kevin: Your finger is on the pulse of your own neck. 211 00:13:38,593 --> 00:13:43,783 Rob: Um, because a part of me was there going, there has been a mention earlier, 212 00:13:44,263 --> 00:13:49,363 possibly with something that went wrong with the Prodigy crew, um, that we kind of 213 00:13:49,363 --> 00:13:53,773 get the imp impli implication of when SAM first had interactions with the Doctor. 214 00:13:53,923 --> 00:13:58,593 But it's the smarter move to focus on the Doctor's, you know, you know, 215 00:13:58,813 --> 00:14:05,583 trauma of dealing with the loss of his, you know, uh created daughter. 216 00:14:05,823 --> 00:14:10,133 Um, and that Picardo is so good. 217 00:14:10,253 --> 00:14:12,483 Picardo is so good. 218 00:14:12,723 --> 00:14:17,223 He's such a great comedic actor, but he has those dramatic elements as well. 219 00:14:17,523 --> 00:14:22,203 Um, and it's, you know, it's a credit to him that he's been able 220 00:14:22,203 --> 00:14:26,073 to come back and they've given him something, you know, really, you 221 00:14:26,073 --> 00:14:28,413 know, meaty to sink his teeth into. 222 00:14:28,860 --> 00:14:29,220 Kevin: Yeah. 223 00:14:30,180 --> 00:14:30,480 Yeah. 224 00:14:30,480 --> 00:14:35,760 It's interesting to think back on the Prodigy Doctor now and, and see him 225 00:14:35,760 --> 00:14:39,990 as like was, I guess he was kind of standoffish then, and it's because they 226 00:14:39,990 --> 00:14:44,265 were writing him for, for comedy and the, like, I think they were leaning into the 227 00:14:44,265 --> 00:14:50,625 fact that he is just a hologram in Uh, and, and, but because of that, they can 228 00:14:50,625 --> 00:14:56,085 now tell this, this like deft thing of the reason he was so standoffish and he 229 00:14:56,085 --> 00:15:01,995 wasn't a mentor to any of those kids, uh, in the way perhaps Hologram Janeway was 230 00:15:01,995 --> 00:15:08,385 in that, uh, show, um, was because he was protecting himself from, from loss again. 231 00:15:08,475 --> 00:15:08,775 Yeah. 232 00:15:09,883 --> 00:15:13,994 Rob: Um, I love, there's some really beautiful compositions 233 00:15:13,994 --> 00:15:15,524 of shots and color choices. 234 00:15:15,524 --> 00:15:18,764 Like with on, on, Kasq, there was like a lot of black and 235 00:15:18,764 --> 00:15:20,409 white with hints of color. 236 00:15:20,461 --> 00:15:23,881 Kevin: It seems directly inspired by our, Our Town again. 237 00:15:24,031 --> 00:15:28,981 Um, in the, in the shuttle, they gave us as audience members who they know 238 00:15:29,131 --> 00:15:32,941 may not be familiar with Our Town, which I wasn't as I was watching it, 239 00:15:32,941 --> 00:15:36,871 they give us just enough to understand the reference they're about to make. 240 00:15:36,871 --> 00:15:42,451 They talk about how the, the Stage Manager, uh, sets things up in, 241 00:15:42,541 --> 00:15:47,551 in a, uh, muted half light and how color does not appear until 242 00:15:47,551 --> 00:15:49,201 someone is allowed to look back. 243 00:15:49,351 --> 00:15:53,541 And then the very next scene, they are in a muted half light with no 244 00:15:53,541 --> 00:15:58,551 color until we see SAM's memories coming out the back of her head. 245 00:15:58,791 --> 00:15:59,961 And yeah, it is. 246 00:15:59,961 --> 00:16:04,551 It's like, oh, yes, you, the, you are doing the thing you just described. 247 00:16:04,581 --> 00:16:08,871 That must be a little weird to the characters who are, who are like, hang on, 248 00:16:09,076 --> 00:16:15,466 I was just describing this, but it works for us as the audience, which is great. 249 00:16:15,584 --> 00:16:17,899 Rob: All in all, um, I, I loved the episode. 250 00:16:17,949 --> 00:16:23,369 Again, the, the high school drama stuff is, you know, evident 251 00:16:23,369 --> 00:16:24,959 because that's what this show is. 252 00:16:25,229 --> 00:16:30,329 Um, and so them being all teenager and going, I don't wanna do this stupid play, 253 00:16:30,329 --> 00:16:36,239 kind of, you know, uh, annoyed me a little bit, but I was understanding what it was 254 00:16:36,239 --> 00:16:40,499 achieving and there was some great, uh, developments there for these characters. 255 00:16:40,499 --> 00:16:43,859 And Tilly did a great job of coming in and, um, you know, 256 00:16:43,859 --> 00:16:45,779 getting them out of their funk. 257 00:16:46,671 --> 00:16:49,681 Kevin: Just like in Our Town, I think some of the sweetest stuff here were 258 00:16:49,681 --> 00:16:54,586 the little scenes that were just moments in the life, that were not necessary to 259 00:16:54,586 --> 00:16:57,946 the story, but enriched the characters. 260 00:16:57,976 --> 00:17:03,556 Um, Genesis looking after drunk Tarina after she comes back 261 00:17:03,556 --> 00:17:06,166 from her close shave with Caleb. 262 00:17:06,376 --> 00:17:10,856 Seeing, Tarina get to know SAM in their new shared quarters. 263 00:17:10,856 --> 00:17:15,356 These little, these little scenes, I, uh, were some of my favorite in the show, 264 00:17:15,356 --> 00:17:20,231 and they, they, they were allowed to be quiet and there were moments of silence 265 00:17:20,231 --> 00:17:26,876 of characters looking at each other and I caught myself as an audience, kind of 266 00:17:26,876 --> 00:17:32,036 like letting my breath out and going, wow, we are, we are being allowed to 267 00:17:32,036 --> 00:17:34,226 sit here and live with these characters. 268 00:17:34,226 --> 00:17:38,966 This, uh, to, to use a term I I used last week, it feels luxurious. 269 00:17:39,021 --> 00:17:43,761 It feels like the kind of stuff we have not made time for in our Star 270 00:17:43,761 --> 00:17:47,571 Trek lately, because it's been rush, rush, rush to the next plot point. 271 00:17:47,961 --> 00:17:51,471 And, uh, yeah, I, I love the confidence that this show is showing 272 00:17:51,471 --> 00:17:52,881 by spending its time this way, 273 00:17:53,619 --> 00:17:54,189 Rob: Agreed. 274 00:17:54,351 --> 00:17:57,891 Kevin: letting episodes be an hour and four minutes if that's what they need. 275 00:17:57,891 --> 00:18:01,606 We, we've had really long episodes this season as well, which I've really enjoyed. 276 00:18:02,677 --> 00:18:08,927 Rob: Yeah, I definitely appreciated the lack of the gimmick of being within a high 277 00:18:08,927 --> 00:18:15,107 school situation and making it too flashy, to take those moments um, to really sink 278 00:18:15,107 --> 00:18:19,417 in, so any of that annoyingness because they're just young people and I'm getting 279 00:18:19,417 --> 00:18:24,047 too old and all young people annoy me, um, to that point of, yeah, those moments 280 00:18:24,047 --> 00:18:29,289 of quiet, those moments of connection, those moments of compassion, those moments 281 00:18:29,289 --> 00:18:32,769 that we haven't really had a chance within other Star Trek, like you said. 282 00:18:33,129 --> 00:18:36,849 Um, it's, yeah, it's a bold decision and so, and it sneaks up on you. 283 00:18:37,038 --> 00:18:39,863 Kevin: There's definitely lots of fun classroom hijinks here as well. 284 00:18:39,863 --> 00:18:44,183 Like when Ocam gets assigned the role of Stage Manager and he's like snapping his 285 00:18:44,183 --> 00:18:47,093 fingers and goes Sick, and it's just like, 286 00:18:49,373 --> 00:18:53,078 you know, it's 2026 high school kids all over the place. 287 00:18:53,108 --> 00:18:57,668 But, but that stuff is there too and, and, uh, is allowed to, we're allowed 288 00:18:57,668 --> 00:18:59,678 to relish it for its own sake too. 289 00:19:00,154 --> 00:19:03,364 The last thing I watched in preparation for this was actually 290 00:19:03,364 --> 00:19:05,674 a production of Our Town. 291 00:19:05,704 --> 00:19:09,334 Um, I found there is one on YouTube starring, um. 292 00:19:10,594 --> 00:19:18,355 it's circa 2004 or, but it, uh, it has Paul Newman as the Stage Manager who 293 00:19:18,355 --> 00:19:20,425 brings a lot of gravitas to that role. 294 00:19:20,905 --> 00:19:27,205 Um, and it is, unlike a lot of these like filmed productions of 295 00:19:27,205 --> 00:19:31,825 Our Town that are like they, they've reinterpreted it as a movie, this one 296 00:19:31,825 --> 00:19:34,435 is very much staged as a stage show. 297 00:19:34,465 --> 00:19:39,025 It, it, it is shot definitely for television and lit for television, 298 00:19:39,025 --> 00:19:43,885 but everything happens on a stage with, with pieces of set moving 299 00:19:43,885 --> 00:19:48,265 here and there and, and, you know, vignettes existing amongst each other. 300 00:19:48,745 --> 00:19:51,115 Um, and yeah, I, I enjoyed it. 301 00:19:51,115 --> 00:19:56,815 It's, uh, it's interesting watching a production that is now old enough to 302 00:19:56,815 --> 00:20:03,621 be a bit retro on its own, producing a story from the 1940s that therefore has 303 00:20:03,621 --> 00:20:09,711 its own second level of like looking back on it, it of a, of a script that 304 00:20:09,711 --> 00:20:14,691 itself is kind of reflecting on the nature of American society at that time. 305 00:20:14,691 --> 00:20:17,826 It felt like there were kind of three layers of, of, of 306 00:20:17,826 --> 00:20:21,636 reflectiveness competing for each, uh, for attention with each other. 307 00:20:21,936 --> 00:20:24,666 Uh, but I do, I did enjoy it, and it's free on YouTube. 308 00:20:24,666 --> 00:20:29,586 So if anyone, uh, is listening to this going, I, I didn't quite 309 00:20:29,586 --> 00:20:33,546 get what they were going for with the Our Town references, um. 310 00:20:33,981 --> 00:20:38,631 I don't think it's mandatory viewing by any means; I think they give us everything 311 00:20:38,631 --> 00:20:42,321 we need in this episode to understand what they're talking about, but it, 312 00:20:42,321 --> 00:20:44,421 it's, it's an interesting play for sure. 313 00:20:44,421 --> 00:20:49,671 It feels, you know, to, to Tilly calling it statecraft, it feels like a piece 314 00:20:49,671 --> 00:20:55,831 of theater that is attempting to, set a definition for what good American 315 00:20:55,831 --> 00:21:00,841 society, what, what, uh, you know, the small town life that we should be 316 00:21:00,841 --> 00:21:04,471 aspiring to produce as good Americans is. 317 00:21:04,651 --> 00:21:10,441 That's, my take of it, is that it was, it was a little bit prescriptive, but 318 00:21:10,711 --> 00:21:12,601 not in any way that I disagree with. 319 00:21:12,601 --> 00:21:16,951 So I was kind of really, like happy to go along with it, but at the 320 00:21:16,951 --> 00:21:21,241 same time, I just did feel this kind of odd sense of this play is 321 00:21:21,241 --> 00:21:23,191 telling us how to be as people. 322 00:21:24,059 --> 00:21:28,514 Rob: I do love the fact that, of, you know, Star Trek does have a tendency 323 00:21:28,514 --> 00:21:34,904 to have this almost naive mythologizing its own, uh, history and culture. 324 00:21:34,904 --> 00:21:38,834 So sort of like, you know, it's wonderful watching, you know, Voyager and they 325 00:21:38,834 --> 00:21:44,125 have hologram re representations of the guy who started Woodstock or, 326 00:21:44,125 --> 00:21:49,165 you know, references to the past in, um, uh, uh, the journey home. 327 00:21:49,465 --> 00:21:57,160 So to have this, this very singular play experience that is a part of the, the US 328 00:21:57,400 --> 00:22:04,600 zeitgeist to become a part of this Star Trek myth of America, um, and that, well, 329 00:22:04,660 --> 00:22:10,480 you know, of theater and society, but it's American society in some ways is, uh. 330 00:22:10,752 --> 00:22:12,492 Kevin: Yeah, that was conspicuous too. 331 00:22:12,492 --> 00:22:16,692 They never call this an American play or, or talk about 332 00:22:16,872 --> 00:22:18,792 America was between two wars. 333 00:22:18,792 --> 00:22:23,502 They say Earth was between two wars and they round the United States up to the 334 00:22:23,502 --> 00:22:28,647 entire, uh, Earth in the same way that they do with every society in Star Trek. 335 00:22:28,647 --> 00:22:33,927 It's like, this is the, this is the beach planet because it is entirely beach. 336 00:22:33,957 --> 00:22:38,217 And the, the, the president of the beach is the president of the planet. 337 00:22:38,217 --> 00:22:42,830 You know, the, the, is no, there is missing a, a level of scale 338 00:22:42,830 --> 00:22:48,470 between the, the, yeah, the one country and the, the entire world. 339 00:22:48,475 --> 00:22:51,830 They, they kind of collapse that upwards, uh, in Star Trek and they, 340 00:22:52,010 --> 00:22:54,350 they do that to historical Earth here, 341 00:22:55,348 --> 00:22:55,888 Rob: Yes. 342 00:22:56,128 --> 00:23:01,168 And the, the importance of Our Town to the entire history of, of the Earth. 343 00:23:01,755 --> 00:23:02,085 Kevin: Of the, 344 00:23:06,075 --> 00:23:06,095 Earth. 345 00:23:06,585 --> 00:23:10,875 Well, it's, that is funny 'cause like I think an American audience, you'd have a 346 00:23:10,875 --> 00:23:16,665 pretty good chance that you have, you have studied Our Town in high school yourself, 347 00:23:17,025 --> 00:23:20,295 but here in Australia and in other places around the world watching this 348 00:23:20,295 --> 00:23:21,735 show, they would probably go Our Town? 349 00:23:21,735 --> 00:23:22,245 Never heard of it. 350 00:23:22,963 --> 00:23:23,323 Rob: Yeah. 351 00:23:24,193 --> 00:23:24,493 Yeah. 352 00:23:24,493 --> 00:23:27,703 And pretty much it's, it, it, especially, yeah, here in Australia, 353 00:23:27,703 --> 00:23:31,628 it would only be known by, uh, the nerdiest of theater nerds. 354 00:23:31,920 --> 00:23:32,070 Kevin: Yeah. 355 00:23:32,070 --> 00:23:32,580 Yeah, yeah. 356 00:23:33,450 --> 00:23:33,690 Hmm. 357 00:23:34,860 --> 00:23:38,040 Well, well done, uh, well done Starfleet Academy. 358 00:23:38,040 --> 00:23:39,540 I thought this was a triumph. 359 00:23:39,660 --> 00:23:43,200 I, uh, I would happily accept this as our season finale, 360 00:23:43,200 --> 00:23:44,700 but we've got two more to go. 361 00:23:45,343 --> 00:23:45,943 Rob: Two more to go. 362 00:23:45,943 --> 00:23:48,673 I think we need to resolve some issues with the, uh, a 363 00:23:48,673 --> 00:23:50,863 certain, uh, uh, nasty character. 364 00:23:51,525 --> 00:23:53,055 Kevin: Yes, it does seem that way. 365 00:23:53,175 --> 00:23:59,445 And, uh, so before we, um, head off into the rest of this season, let's take a 366 00:23:59,445 --> 00:24:02,655 moment to look at theater in Star Trek. 367 00:24:02,685 --> 00:24:06,375 So you talked a bit there, Rob, about how Shakespeare is a 368 00:24:06,375 --> 00:24:08,955 recurring element of, of Star Trek. 369 00:24:08,955 --> 00:24:15,225 We've, we've on it recently in some of our, our, our movie chats, but, uh, yeah. 370 00:24:15,225 --> 00:24:18,375 Let's, let's go, uh, a little more deeply into times that 371 00:24:18,375 --> 00:24:22,065 we have seen the stage Star 372 00:24:22,243 --> 00:24:29,473 Rob: I'm, I'm very intrigued to see, uh, I was intrigued to see how the world 373 00:24:29,473 --> 00:24:33,643 of theater, the world of the stage, the world of acting has been presented 374 00:24:33,643 --> 00:24:36,733 within the Star Trek world, because especially like we've talked about 375 00:24:36,733 --> 00:24:40,383 within the movies, especially Star Trek VI, a little bit of Star Trek IV and 376 00:24:40,383 --> 00:24:47,173 Star Trek II, they have that element of even, even the stories that are being 377 00:24:47,173 --> 00:24:51,523 told are quite Shakespearean, want to use that, especially in Star Trek VI. 378 00:24:52,093 --> 00:24:57,673 Um, you know, it's all Hamlet and Macbeth and even Richard III a little bit. 379 00:24:58,033 --> 00:25:06,163 But, um, just to, to look at the down and dirty day-to-day process of being 380 00:25:06,193 --> 00:25:09,643 in the theater and what putting a play on means and what it connects 381 00:25:09,643 --> 00:25:11,923 to you as a person and a human being. 382 00:25:12,283 --> 00:25:14,473 Um, I'm very interested. 383 00:25:14,473 --> 00:25:20,413 I was interested to see the almost clinical, scientific kind of, you know, 384 00:25:20,413 --> 00:25:28,828 utopian view of the world could fit the down and dirty and muddy and, uh, and, 385 00:25:28,888 --> 00:25:32,968 and deliciously dramatic world of theater. 386 00:25:33,058 --> 00:25:35,848 Uh, they seemed quite, you know, incongruous to me. 387 00:25:35,848 --> 00:25:40,318 There's a, there's a juxtaposition between the two, but, um, but 388 00:25:40,318 --> 00:25:41,578 yes, it was been fun to explore. 389 00:25:42,170 --> 00:25:42,620 Kevin: Yeah. 390 00:25:43,040 --> 00:25:49,100 Well, I'm gonna start us off with, uh, what I think must have, must be, uh, the 391 00:25:49,100 --> 00:25:53,360 first appearance of theater in Star Trek, which is season one, episode 12 of the 392 00:25:53,360 --> 00:25:55,520 original series, the Conscience of the 393 00:25:55,858 --> 00:25:56,453 Rob: of the King! 394 00:25:56,763 --> 00:25:57,053 Jinx. 395 00:25:57,590 --> 00:25:58,070 Kevin: Jinx. 396 00:25:58,070 --> 00:25:58,460 All right. 397 00:25:58,460 --> 00:25:59,090 We've matched. 398 00:26:00,305 --> 00:26:02,195 Had you seen this episode before, Rob? 399 00:26:02,658 --> 00:26:03,618 Rob: I had not. 400 00:26:03,678 --> 00:26:05,508 I had not seen this episode before. 401 00:26:05,508 --> 00:26:06,558 I hadn't heard of it. 402 00:26:06,588 --> 00:26:07,338 Um. 403 00:26:07,535 --> 00:26:08,405 Kevin: a classic. 404 00:26:08,525 --> 00:26:11,975 This is one of those episodes I feel like when I was growing up with Star 405 00:26:11,975 --> 00:26:17,195 Trek and, uh, it was just watching whatever show they, whatever episode 406 00:26:17,195 --> 00:26:21,455 they happened to put on as a rerun that week, The Conscience of the King 407 00:26:21,455 --> 00:26:25,250 came up more often, than, average. 408 00:26:25,250 --> 00:26:28,130 I feel like this is one that I've seen again and again. 409 00:26:28,520 --> 00:26:33,860 Uh, I don't know if I just, I watched it on a particular, particularly susceptible 410 00:26:33,860 --> 00:26:38,120 day where it, it burned itself into my synapses, but I feel like I can 411 00:26:38,120 --> 00:26:40,370 see this episode with my eyes closed. 412 00:26:41,478 --> 00:26:45,593 Rob: It's, um, things that stood out for me: how it's lit. It 413 00:26:46,013 --> 00:26:48,683 is lit incredibly beautifully. 414 00:26:48,683 --> 00:26:54,263 There's so much range of purples and, and greens and blues and 415 00:26:54,263 --> 00:26:59,033 pinks, and it just, uh, it's just incredible for the, for the eye. 416 00:26:59,345 --> 00:27:02,735 Kevin: They comment on the lighting at one point in this episode, when Kirk 417 00:27:02,735 --> 00:27:09,665 is, uh, you know, taking Lenore on the, their date to the observation windows one 418 00:27:09,665 --> 00:27:14,975 of, one of the very few peeks outside, like through a window, uh, that we 419 00:27:15,335 --> 00:27:17,465 in, in Star Trek, the original series. 420 00:27:17,495 --> 00:27:22,295 And, uh, she says, did you arrange the, the romantic lighting for me, especially? 421 00:27:23,268 --> 00:27:26,628 Rob: Um, any, uh, yeah, should be candlelight as well. 422 00:27:26,628 --> 00:27:27,078 I think she 423 00:27:27,155 --> 00:27:28,085 Kevin: Yeah, yeah, yeah. 424 00:27:28,205 --> 00:27:28,745 That's right. 425 00:27:28,838 --> 00:27:36,948 Rob: Um, also, particularly, there's the, the, the enhanced CGI shots were a lot 426 00:27:36,948 --> 00:27:42,168 more involved than in future ones that I've seen, which is kind of like a stock 427 00:27:42,168 --> 00:27:44,718 standard, just recreation just a bit. 428 00:27:44,748 --> 00:27:50,423 But this one had camera turns and um, and tilts and all this type 429 00:27:50,628 --> 00:27:54,348 of stuff and, and long shots of getting in closer to the Enterprise. 430 00:27:54,348 --> 00:27:55,608 I'm going, alright. 431 00:27:55,608 --> 00:27:58,038 So they've put a little bit more money behind that. 432 00:27:58,488 --> 00:28:01,323 Um, and notice that. 433 00:28:01,413 --> 00:28:05,823 But what I noticed about the representation of the theater 434 00:28:05,823 --> 00:28:09,483 world, especially this Shakespearean world, it was very classic. 435 00:28:09,663 --> 00:28:14,583 So sets were almost like a high school set, but it was 436 00:28:14,583 --> 00:28:17,103 like a fairytale type look. 437 00:28:17,103 --> 00:28:20,763 So it's like old school castles, medieval type castles. 438 00:28:20,763 --> 00:28:26,253 The costumes are so old school, medieval, they didn't wanna do any sort of 439 00:28:26,253 --> 00:28:29,103 like anything other than this is old. 440 00:28:29,103 --> 00:28:33,963 The big frilly shirts, big velvet jackets and uh, doublets 441 00:28:33,963 --> 00:28:35,163 and all that type of stuff. 442 00:28:35,193 --> 00:28:36,993 It was, uh, it was 443 00:28:37,355 --> 00:28:39,060 Kevin: Completely by the numbers, Shakespeare. 444 00:28:40,868 --> 00:28:44,088 Rob: And the performance style as well was quite classical 445 00:28:44,088 --> 00:28:45,708 and, and all that type of stuff. 446 00:28:45,708 --> 00:28:47,598 There was no room for any nuance here. 447 00:28:47,598 --> 00:28:50,118 It was theater, old school. 448 00:28:50,148 --> 00:28:54,078 You get, uh, love the shots behind the scenes with Kirk trying to 449 00:28:54,198 --> 00:28:55,938 convince Riley to drop the gun. 450 00:28:56,000 --> 00:28:58,845 Kevin: They had so many layers of red curtains back there. 451 00:29:00,258 --> 00:29:03,768 Rob: who could, when did, did the acting troupe bring that with 452 00:29:03,768 --> 00:29:05,748 them or is that on the Enterprise? 453 00:29:05,748 --> 00:29:07,068 I know the sets they brought in. 454 00:29:07,475 --> 00:29:11,225 Kevin: I remember when, uh, they called, uh, security to the theater. 455 00:29:11,225 --> 00:29:14,195 They mentioned the ship's theater specifically. 456 00:29:14,778 --> 00:29:17,358 Rob: As, as Kirk walks out, he goes, I'm heading to the ship's theater. 457 00:29:17,358 --> 00:29:19,818 I'm going, that's, that's not a thing you 458 00:29:19,955 --> 00:29:21,695 Kevin: The ship isn't big enough to have a theater. 459 00:29:22,218 --> 00:29:26,088 Rob: You have just turned a rec room into a theater, okay? 460 00:29:26,465 --> 00:29:27,210 Kevin: That's what I expect. 461 00:29:27,498 --> 00:29:29,658 Rob: I think you're being a bit too presumptuous there. 462 00:29:30,140 --> 00:29:36,140 Kevin: I liked how, um, non sci-fi this episode was. 463 00:29:36,170 --> 00:29:41,210 It a day in the life of this world without any wild sci-fi things. 464 00:29:41,210 --> 00:29:48,335 I mean, the, the most sci-fi thing that happens is, uh, I guess, this 465 00:29:48,335 --> 00:29:54,785 reference to a colony that ran out of food, and, and so Kodos who became known 466 00:29:54,785 --> 00:30:01,385 as kudos, the executioner, um, decided to snap his fingers, if you will, and 467 00:30:01,925 --> 00:30:06,905 half of the colony in order to, uh, preserve the life of the other half. 468 00:30:06,905 --> 00:30:09,695 And that, that, that, that is, uh, something that Kirk 469 00:30:09,695 --> 00:30:11,225 witnessed in his childhood. 470 00:30:11,885 --> 00:30:17,165 Like I suppose that's a bit, um, heightened slash sci-fi. 471 00:30:17,195 --> 00:30:19,860 But as far as the events that take place here, you know, it's a ship 472 00:30:20,480 --> 00:30:25,220 going from one port to another, picking up a, a traveling, uh, 473 00:30:25,220 --> 00:30:27,530 troupe of thespians along the way. 474 00:30:27,530 --> 00:30:32,180 There, there is nothing much that that could not happen in, 475 00:30:32,240 --> 00:30:34,460 uh, an earthbound show here. 476 00:30:34,460 --> 00:30:38,950 And I kind of like that, that the, the setting is used, um, 477 00:30:39,030 --> 00:30:44,780 matter-of-factly rather than to, to hold up some improbable piece of plot. 478 00:30:46,188 --> 00:30:51,018 Rob: Yeah, and it gave us a little bit of Kirk lore that I wasn't aware 479 00:30:51,018 --> 00:30:55,458 of, that was sort of like a, a, a blank, uh, space within my knowledge. 480 00:30:55,458 --> 00:30:57,948 So, yeah, this was 20 years ago. 481 00:30:57,948 --> 00:31:00,978 So at this point he's in his, what, early thirties. 482 00:31:01,098 --> 00:31:04,168 So yeah, he's saying he would've been a young, you know, young, 483 00:31:04,408 --> 00:31:07,198 early teenager or you know, preteen. 484 00:31:07,588 --> 00:31:11,788 Um, but it was giving almost the impression that he was a little bit older. 485 00:31:12,148 --> 00:31:15,658 'cause Riley was there as well, but Riley even younger, so 486 00:31:16,535 --> 00:31:16,545 Kevin: yeah. 487 00:31:16,738 --> 00:31:20,848 Rob: so he would've been like under the age of 10 possibly? 488 00:31:21,178 --> 00:31:23,608 But how long was Kirk on this colony? 489 00:31:23,608 --> 00:31:25,528 Was he ba because he was born in Iowa? 490 00:31:25,558 --> 00:31:26,458 We know about that. 491 00:31:27,178 --> 00:31:28,678 Um, so. 492 00:31:29,238 --> 00:31:34,638 Why was a early teenager preteen Kirk on this colony? 493 00:31:34,638 --> 00:31:35,778 Very interesting to see. 494 00:31:35,778 --> 00:31:40,338 And he didn't lose any family, it didn't seem to imply. 495 00:31:40,518 --> 00:31:40,848 Yes. 496 00:31:41,328 --> 00:31:42,978 Um, lots of questions and 497 00:31:43,385 --> 00:31:46,505 Kevin: There's a bit of that stuff that, like Kirk lore that was 498 00:31:46,505 --> 00:31:49,715 established in just one episode and never referenced again. 499 00:31:50,508 --> 00:31:50,898 Rob: Yeah. 500 00:31:50,980 --> 00:31:51,110 Kevin: Uh. 501 00:31:51,905 --> 00:31:56,555 We talked about that in a previous episode of Strange New Worlds where there's a, 502 00:31:56,555 --> 00:32:03,185 there's a disaster, uh, for Kirk that we know about that, uh, is either coming or 503 00:32:03,185 --> 00:32:06,015 recently passed, uh, onboard the Farragut. 504 00:32:06,035 --> 00:32:07,205 I think it is coming. 505 00:32:07,205 --> 00:32:13,025 The, the Obsession disaster that shakes his confidence as a captain for a while. 506 00:32:13,415 --> 00:32:17,465 Um, but yeah, just mentioned in one episode and never dealt with 507 00:32:17,465 --> 00:32:20,105 again, so, yeah, not the first one. 508 00:32:21,383 --> 00:32:21,603 Rob: No. 509 00:32:21,903 --> 00:32:24,598 And um, yeah, it was very much dealing with a, 510 00:32:26,733 --> 00:32:29,973 a very human, uh, type of situation. 511 00:32:29,973 --> 00:32:33,843 It would be, it did feel like a lot of sci-fi from the sixties. 512 00:32:33,843 --> 00:32:35,313 It happened with Doctor Who as well. 513 00:32:35,673 --> 00:32:38,913 It feels like a remnant of World War II. 514 00:32:39,603 --> 00:32:42,093 It's very much that that was still fresh in the minds of 515 00:32:42,093 --> 00:32:44,223 the writers and of of society. 516 00:32:44,373 --> 00:32:49,233 So those people who were escaping justice or hiding who weren't caught for the 517 00:32:49,233 --> 00:32:56,853 Nuremberg trials or, you know, stories of Nazis, fleeing to Brazil, um, finding 518 00:32:56,853 --> 00:33:00,603 sanctuary in, you know, South American countries and all that type of stuff. 519 00:33:00,633 --> 00:33:06,813 So there's definitely a deep connection to, uh, war that was, you know, 520 00:33:06,818 --> 00:33:09,543 modern, modern history at that time. 521 00:33:09,770 --> 00:33:10,190 Kevin: Hmm. 522 00:33:10,373 --> 00:33:13,883 Rob: I love the reveal of, and I could see it coming, 'cause 523 00:33:13,883 --> 00:33:15,503 it was staged so beautifully. 524 00:33:15,833 --> 00:33:21,023 But he's, you know, the opening cold sequence, uh, is in the theater and 525 00:33:21,023 --> 00:33:25,973 Kirk's with, uh, his old friend Tom, uh, and Tom has only ever seen him. 526 00:33:26,843 --> 00:33:27,323 Yes. 527 00:33:27,323 --> 00:33:32,573 And he and Tom is only ever seen in profile, and it isn't until they, then, 528 00:33:32,573 --> 00:33:37,013 after we go to the credits and we come back and he's in, in Tom's apartment 529 00:33:37,013 --> 00:33:39,233 with his wife and he's still in profile. 530 00:33:39,233 --> 00:33:41,123 And he goes, you know, can you move on from this? 531 00:33:41,123 --> 00:33:45,173 And he turns and he reveals like his whole half of his face is covered in 532 00:33:45,173 --> 00:33:48,053 this like black tape to cover it off. 533 00:33:48,053 --> 00:33:49,463 He goes, I can never move on. 534 00:33:49,660 --> 00:33:51,100 Kevin: It's so strange. 535 00:33:51,100 --> 00:33:51,640 Yeah. 536 00:33:52,480 --> 00:33:58,060 Yeah, obviously you know, it, it says a lot without saying anything at all, 537 00:33:58,120 --> 00:34:03,610 that, but then hearing what actually happened on that colony that people 538 00:34:03,610 --> 00:34:09,070 were put to death, it does not really explain what happened to his face, like, 539 00:34:09,293 --> 00:34:11,213 Rob: Especially 'cause they talk about the fact they, they 540 00:34:11,213 --> 00:34:12,983 kill them with with no pain. 541 00:34:13,025 --> 00:34:14,080 Kevin: Yeah, yeah, exactly. 542 00:34:14,453 --> 00:34:15,083 Rob: Yeah. 543 00:34:16,013 --> 00:34:18,293 Of there going, all right, O Okay. 544 00:34:18,863 --> 00:34:19,283 What's. 545 00:34:19,375 --> 00:34:19,675 Kevin: Yeah. 546 00:34:19,765 --> 00:34:20,125 Yeah. 547 00:34:20,125 --> 00:34:22,255 It's uh, it's a strange one for sure. 548 00:34:23,018 --> 00:34:26,768 Rob: Um, but I was kind of caught up in it 'cause I had never seen it before. 549 00:34:26,768 --> 00:34:30,698 So I'm there going, all right, is it, is it, is it him, is it not? 550 00:34:30,908 --> 00:34:33,848 And part of me was thinking, oh, there's something glaring 551 00:34:34,045 --> 00:34:35,305 Kevin: They walked a fine line there. 552 00:34:35,305 --> 00:34:39,445 Even when you see the two, like Kirk puts them side by side on the screen and 553 00:34:39,445 --> 00:34:41,035 it's the same actor playing them both. 554 00:34:41,035 --> 00:34:43,075 But you're still like, are they the same? 555 00:34:43,105 --> 00:34:44,305 They, different. 556 00:34:44,515 --> 00:34:46,585 That mustache is pretty wild on that one. 557 00:34:46,585 --> 00:34:47,845 Maybe it is a different person. 558 00:34:48,413 --> 00:34:51,743 Rob: And a part of me was going, well, maybe it could be, uh, the daughter. 559 00:34:52,073 --> 00:34:54,983 And then you go, oh, no, okay, they're gonna do the whole thing. 560 00:34:54,983 --> 00:34:57,173 It's, they're the same but not conclusive. 561 00:34:57,173 --> 00:34:59,903 So maybe they'll do the whole thing and then at the end 562 00:34:59,903 --> 00:35:01,613 they just go, no, it was her. 563 00:35:01,733 --> 00:35:02,753 She did it whole time. 564 00:35:03,143 --> 00:35:03,893 And I went, aha. 565 00:35:04,763 --> 00:35:08,032 And that was a beautiful little scene, like the, like, Kodos going, 566 00:35:08,332 --> 00:35:12,922 you know, I, that shadow of my past, I didn't want her to infect you. 567 00:35:12,952 --> 00:35:13,822 You were my bright. 568 00:35:13,852 --> 00:35:14,032 You 569 00:35:14,649 --> 00:35:15,039 Kevin: moment. 570 00:35:15,592 --> 00:35:20,752 Rob: and, and, and she doing classic 1960s, uh, gorgeous 571 00:35:20,782 --> 00:35:23,177 actress turning mad and crazy! 572 00:35:24,714 --> 00:35:27,399 Kevin: Just like, uh, lady Macbeth. 573 00:35:27,562 --> 00:35:28,822 Rob: Lady Macbeth. 574 00:35:28,852 --> 00:35:29,542 That's right. 575 00:35:30,232 --> 00:35:32,002 Um, one thing I will note. 576 00:35:33,427 --> 00:35:37,627 McCoy was very weird in this episode, like his first scene, he's 577 00:35:38,124 --> 00:35:39,324 Kevin: Look, I'm drinking. 578 00:35:39,534 --> 00:35:43,794 I'm drinking here, and if you're not with me, don't judge me for drinking. 579 00:35:44,437 --> 00:35:46,387 Rob: and I'm there going, this is like episode 12. 580 00:35:46,387 --> 00:35:48,127 Have they not figured out McCoy yet? 581 00:35:48,157 --> 00:35:51,517 Because he's just, the whole scene, he's just going, let's have a drink. 582 00:35:52,957 --> 00:35:56,017 And it wasn't until later on I go, okay, there's the McCoy we know, all right, 583 00:35:56,017 --> 00:35:57,337 we have to get to the second scene. 584 00:35:57,337 --> 00:35:57,727 I'm going, 585 00:35:57,744 --> 00:36:01,554 Kevin: There's the McCoy we know, uh, recording logs about his patients 586 00:36:01,554 --> 00:36:03,144 while they're standing background. 587 00:36:03,172 --> 00:36:03,772 Rob: he's standing right. 588 00:36:03,952 --> 00:36:05,632 And all the detail just gonna go. 589 00:36:05,992 --> 00:36:08,962 'cause of course, Riley, parents were killed right front him. 590 00:36:09,052 --> 00:36:10,072 I do hope he doesn't. 591 00:36:10,462 --> 00:36:11,962 Oh, good lord, maybe he heard me. 592 00:36:12,052 --> 00:36:13,192 You think McCoy? 593 00:36:13,359 --> 00:36:13,779 Kevin: Oopsie. 594 00:36:14,962 --> 00:36:16,042 Rob: You're meant to be a smart man. 595 00:36:16,042 --> 00:36:17,482 You're a doctor for God's sake. 596 00:36:18,114 --> 00:36:19,044 Kevin: Kevin Riley's good. 597 00:36:19,044 --> 00:36:24,354 He's actually, he appears in two episodes, that character, in The Naked Time, the 598 00:36:24,354 --> 00:36:31,794 one where they all get, uh, uh, you know, kind yeah sexy drunk, um, yeah. 599 00:36:31,794 --> 00:36:32,814 And yeah, he's good. 600 00:36:32,844 --> 00:36:37,374 He, uh, as a, as a day player, I guess he fits right in. 601 00:36:37,374 --> 00:36:44,829 And, um, I really like the, the play back and forth with the rec deck, with Uhura 602 00:36:44,859 --> 00:36:49,359 singing the song, and it, it creates this sense of life aboard the ship in 603 00:36:49,537 --> 00:36:54,012 Rob: And we rarely s we, we rarely see that in, uh, TOS. 604 00:36:54,772 --> 00:36:57,232 I'm just going, this is, they should do more of that. 605 00:36:57,262 --> 00:37:00,592 It's like, if they did that in Discovery, I'm going do more of that. 606 00:37:00,952 --> 00:37:06,742 Like Uhura with her musical instrument and just singing and she sounded great and it 607 00:37:06,742 --> 00:37:09,922 was a way of keeping him, um, entertained. 608 00:37:09,982 --> 00:37:11,932 'cause he was down to the lower levels. 609 00:37:11,932 --> 00:37:13,072 I went, this is great. 610 00:37:13,582 --> 00:37:17,482 If the whole show was, you know, not just focused on the, the, the main three 611 00:37:17,482 --> 00:37:19,192 you could expend to have a little bit. 612 00:37:21,294 --> 00:37:27,234 Kevin: So the theater here, um, I, I like the idea of the traveling troupe that, 613 00:37:27,234 --> 00:37:31,474 uh, plays at Starfleet installations all around the galaxy that, uh, they move. 614 00:37:31,852 --> 00:37:35,722 Rob: And they talk about the Galactic, Galactic Theatrical, 615 00:37:35,754 --> 00:37:36,894 Kevin: yeah, yeah. 616 00:37:37,402 --> 00:37:40,012 Rob: the Galactic Dramatic Society or something. 617 00:37:40,552 --> 00:37:45,412 And they do a little speech at the start about, you know, to preserve the way that, 618 00:37:45,504 --> 00:37:46,314 Kevin: Yeah. 619 00:37:47,092 --> 00:37:49,252 Rob: stories were told in the past. 620 00:37:49,252 --> 00:37:53,962 And, and I, I, I love that type of, you know, representation of keeping 621 00:37:53,962 --> 00:37:57,832 culture, uh, as you know, alive. 622 00:37:57,952 --> 00:38:01,102 And the, the, their responsibility is to travel from ship to 623 00:38:01,102 --> 00:38:02,602 ship and travel the Galaxy. 624 00:38:02,902 --> 00:38:04,402 It's, very old school. 625 00:38:04,719 --> 00:38:07,989 Kevin: And later in the movies and Next Gen, it feels like every 626 00:38:07,989 --> 00:38:12,794 second Starfleet officer is now a Shakespearean connoisseur. 627 00:38:13,374 --> 00:38:13,594 Uh. 628 00:38:14,424 --> 00:38:17,454 But back here in the original series, it was fun to see them kind 629 00:38:17,454 --> 00:38:20,994 of plant that seed and you kind of get the sense that Kirk doesn't 630 00:38:20,994 --> 00:38:22,644 really care about Shakespeare. 631 00:38:22,644 --> 00:38:28,104 Like he is not moved by any of the quotes or, or anything like that. 632 00:38:28,104 --> 00:38:29,484 He's like, yeah, whatever. 633 00:38:29,514 --> 00:38:31,464 We're taking you to prison, you know? 634 00:38:33,114 --> 00:38:39,144 And it, it is, it interesting here to see it, on the one hand, given 635 00:38:39,234 --> 00:38:42,384 enough importance that apparently like these people's full-time job 636 00:38:42,384 --> 00:38:47,904 is to tour Starfleet installations and keep Shakespeare alive. 637 00:38:48,204 --> 00:38:54,264 But on the other hand, seeing Kirk kind of go, kind of be not moved by it, 638 00:38:54,534 --> 00:39:01,009 but um, but this feels like it plants the seed for, sh Shakespeare as the, 639 00:39:01,129 --> 00:39:07,369 as a touchpoint or a springing off a springboard for this story kind of 640 00:39:07,369 --> 00:39:11,269 allows Shakespeare to grow in the Star Trek consciousness to the point where 641 00:39:11,269 --> 00:39:13,279 it, it becomes much larger later on. 642 00:39:14,067 --> 00:39:14,637 Rob: Agreed. 643 00:39:15,044 --> 00:39:15,494 Kevin: Yeah. 644 00:39:16,039 --> 00:39:22,004 I, I, I, I feel like I, I wonder if the, the big book of plays in Picard's quarters 645 00:39:22,004 --> 00:39:26,084 would've been Shakespeare's Complete Works, if not for this episode, or if 646 00:39:26,084 --> 00:39:31,304 this had chosen some other touchpoint of, of theatrical history, whether, 647 00:39:31,304 --> 00:39:33,134 whether that's where we would've gone. 648 00:39:33,494 --> 00:39:36,734 Um, yeah, this, this does feel like the, the start to me. 649 00:39:37,602 --> 00:39:41,682 Rob: There's some great stuff in, in this ep of, yeah, we, you could 650 00:39:41,682 --> 00:39:46,497 read into it and see how, um, this connection with Shakespeare, 651 00:39:46,497 --> 00:39:48,747 does it start here for, for Kirk? 652 00:39:49,047 --> 00:39:53,517 Um, and you know, Spock is the one who does a lot of the 653 00:39:53,517 --> 00:39:56,577 Shakespeare in references or acknowledgements within the movies. 654 00:39:56,577 --> 00:40:01,257 And here he's just very much focused on trying to solve the 655 00:40:01,257 --> 00:40:03,567 riddle of what Kirk is doing. 656 00:40:03,687 --> 00:40:08,007 'cause Kirk is very cold and cuts him off and going, this is my own business. 657 00:40:08,189 --> 00:40:09,179 Kevin: Yeah, yeah, yeah. 658 00:40:09,689 --> 00:40:14,219 I'm, uh, I'm, I'm making some questionable decisions and I'm keeping you out 659 00:40:14,219 --> 00:40:15,869 of it, so it's entirely my fault. 660 00:40:16,529 --> 00:40:22,259 That's fun little trope as well happens now and then when Kirk suddenly, suddenly 661 00:40:22,259 --> 00:40:28,199 goes, uh, incommunicado from his own first officer and, uh, to watch them 662 00:40:28,499 --> 00:40:30,539 test the trust between them is fun. 663 00:40:31,557 --> 00:40:36,207 Rob: And the usual lead, lead man of the sixties, when McCoy comes in, 664 00:40:36,207 --> 00:40:37,232 he goes, you want to talk about it? 665 00:40:38,607 --> 00:40:40,467 Well, clearly you don't wanna talk about it. 666 00:40:41,127 --> 00:40:44,127 You wanna say something about this woman you kinda liked? 667 00:40:44,787 --> 00:40:45,687 Let's move forward. 668 00:40:46,167 --> 00:40:47,427 Think you just told me then. 669 00:40:47,517 --> 00:40:47,817 I'm going, 670 00:40:48,674 --> 00:40:50,084 Kevin: You tell me everything I need to know. 671 00:40:50,097 --> 00:40:51,777 Rob: You told everything I need to know. 672 00:40:52,077 --> 00:40:53,397 And that's all right. 673 00:40:53,607 --> 00:40:56,757 'cause men don't share their opinions or their feelings. 674 00:40:57,087 --> 00:40:58,107 They share their opinions. 675 00:40:58,257 --> 00:40:59,787 They don't share their feelings. 676 00:41:00,147 --> 00:41:01,617 That's what a real man is, blah. 677 00:41:04,572 --> 00:41:07,482 Talk, god— that's why I like Kirk in the movies better. 678 00:41:07,572 --> 00:41:08,412 He talks. 679 00:41:08,729 --> 00:41:09,299 Kevin: Yes, he's 680 00:41:09,582 --> 00:41:10,122 Rob: Kirk comes. 681 00:41:10,152 --> 00:41:12,612 Yeah, McCoy comes over and goes, what the hell's wrong? 682 00:41:12,612 --> 00:41:13,602 Goes, I'm feeling old. 683 00:41:13,602 --> 00:41:14,472 I'm feeling useless. 684 00:41:14,472 --> 00:41:15,522 I'm feeling worn out. 685 00:41:15,642 --> 00:41:16,092 Great. 686 00:41:16,182 --> 00:41:17,172 That's what you do, Kirk. 687 00:41:17,262 --> 00:41:18,792 You talk about your feelings. 688 00:41:20,802 --> 00:41:21,582 You're learning. 689 00:41:22,289 --> 00:41:22,469 Kevin: I'm 690 00:41:22,662 --> 00:41:24,162 Rob: Not in the sixties, no. 691 00:41:24,222 --> 00:41:28,032 Just gonna kiss this crazy woman I'm not gonna talk about it all. 692 00:41:28,722 --> 00:41:29,652 That's what man does. 693 00:41:30,554 --> 00:41:31,454 Kevin: what a man does. 694 00:41:33,574 --> 00:41:37,084 I have another, uh, episode to talk about. 695 00:41:38,267 --> 00:41:39,047 Rob: Yeah. 696 00:41:39,857 --> 00:41:40,967 Yes 697 00:41:41,134 --> 00:41:42,244 Kevin: episode 21. 698 00:41:42,244 --> 00:41:42,754 Frame of 699 00:41:43,157 --> 00:41:44,152 Rob: Frame of Mind. 700 00:41:44,662 --> 00:41:44,952 Jinx. 701 00:41:45,244 --> 00:41:46,054 Kevin: Double! 702 00:41:46,114 --> 00:41:47,044 Double jinx! 703 00:41:47,044 --> 00:41:47,584 Amazing! 704 00:41:48,587 --> 00:41:50,177 Rob: What a great episode! 705 00:41:50,449 --> 00:41:51,604 Kevin: I thought you like it. 706 00:41:52,697 --> 00:41:52,877 Rob: my. 707 00:41:53,507 --> 00:41:57,977 Not only because, um, the, the play that they're using is excerpts from 708 00:41:57,977 --> 00:42:01,037 a Tom Stoppard play called, Good Boy. 709 00:42:01,337 --> 00:42:01,817 Yeah, 710 00:42:02,149 --> 00:42:04,579 Kevin: I had no idea it was a real world play. 711 00:42:04,907 --> 00:42:06,647 Rob: It's elements of it. 712 00:42:06,677 --> 00:42:10,277 They, so they've shifted it to sort of like, they've changed elements 713 00:42:10,277 --> 00:42:13,967 of it, but it's a tom Stoppard play, incredible rider who passed 714 00:42:13,967 --> 00:42:16,817 away sadly, uh, uh, uh, last year. 715 00:42:17,237 --> 00:42:20,747 Um, Every Good Boy Deserves, uh, Favors. 716 00:42:21,137 --> 00:42:23,057 Um, and it's a similar thing. 717 00:42:23,057 --> 00:42:29,192 It's about, um, Russian, Russian, uh, uh, uh, prisoners of war who 718 00:42:29,192 --> 00:42:33,212 are put into this, uh, trying to be convinced that they're insane. 719 00:42:33,482 --> 00:42:35,432 And music plays a huge part of it. 720 00:42:35,432 --> 00:42:38,882 And at this time, um, uh. 721 00:42:39,617 --> 00:42:42,797 Patrick Stewart directed a production of it using cast 722 00:42:42,797 --> 00:42:45,407 members from, uh, Next Generation. 723 00:42:45,407 --> 00:42:49,697 So it had a premier, I believe, in Boston or Chicago. 724 00:42:50,267 --> 00:42:54,497 And so I think, um, Brett Spiner and Jonathan Frakes were 725 00:42:54,497 --> 00:42:55,937 actually in this production. 726 00:42:56,147 --> 00:43:00,197 So they use elements of that in, um, in Frame of Mind. 727 00:43:00,364 --> 00:43:01,324 Kevin: Wow. 728 00:43:01,354 --> 00:43:02,134 That's amazing. 729 00:43:02,134 --> 00:43:03,154 I had no idea. 730 00:43:03,269 --> 00:43:06,874 I, I thought it felt a little One Flew Over The Cuckoo's Nest to 731 00:43:06,917 --> 00:43:07,247 Rob: Yes. 732 00:43:08,524 --> 00:43:12,934 Kevin: of the, uh, the arguably sane man trapped in an insane asylum. 733 00:43:13,352 --> 00:43:17,372 Rob: That cold opener, which is, you know, not showing Data, but 734 00:43:17,372 --> 00:43:18,902 it's clearly Brent Spiner's voice. 735 00:43:19,112 --> 00:43:21,032 got Riker going insane. 736 00:43:21,272 --> 00:43:25,112 And the beautiful moment, which I love as an actor, as a performer, 737 00:43:25,412 --> 00:43:29,402 when they break it and he goes and he puts his hand on his head and he goes, 738 00:43:29,402 --> 00:43:30,752 I'm sorry, what's that line again? 739 00:43:30,752 --> 00:43:31,682 You go ah! 740 00:43:33,302 --> 00:43:37,922 This is, this is it Star Trek, reality, drama, uh, play, you know, 741 00:43:37,952 --> 00:43:41,792 playwriting, all of it comes together and gone, oh, this is, this is 742 00:43:41,792 --> 00:43:43,112 gonna be an episode I'm gonna love. 743 00:43:43,444 --> 00:43:45,184 Kevin: Jonathan Frakes did a good job with this. 744 00:43:45,184 --> 00:43:48,424 I feel like he's a, uh, it's a fine line. 745 00:43:48,934 --> 00:43:54,034 He often, Jonathan Frakes often talks about disparagingly about his own acting 746 00:43:54,034 --> 00:43:59,764 skill that he, he is a, he is a stand up straight and say your line sort of actor. 747 00:44:00,214 --> 00:44:05,859 But here he is being asked to play a Starfleet officer being asked to be 748 00:44:05,859 --> 00:44:10,719 an amateur actor, and so showing the cracks of that performance and his 749 00:44:10,719 --> 00:44:16,659 limitations, as Riker's limitations as an actor, uh, and that, that's a fine line. 750 00:44:16,659 --> 00:44:18,699 I, I think he does a pretty good job of it here. 751 00:44:19,232 --> 00:44:23,417 Rob: I think so, I'm, I, look, I am a huge fan of Jonathan Frakes 752 00:44:23,432 --> 00:44:27,047 and I love how, uh, humble he is. 753 00:44:27,107 --> 00:44:30,467 And like, especially 'cause he's surrounded himself for decades 754 00:44:30,467 --> 00:44:34,817 now with, you know, Brent Spiner, who's an incredible, incredible 755 00:44:34,817 --> 00:44:37,457 actor and especially, you know, the great Patrick Stewart. 756 00:44:37,727 --> 00:44:41,927 So he never elevates himself at the same level as them. 757 00:44:41,927 --> 00:44:45,407 He just goes, oh look, I'm just a, I was just a soap opera actor. 758 00:44:45,407 --> 00:44:47,627 I just walk and talk and show up and know the 759 00:44:47,779 --> 00:44:48,139 Kevin: Yeah. 760 00:44:48,677 --> 00:44:56,267 Rob: Um, but within the format of, uh, Next Gen him being that, uh, younger, 761 00:44:56,297 --> 00:45:01,907 more active number one, it gave him a lot more, you know, romantic scenes, a 762 00:45:01,907 --> 00:45:06,047 lot more action scenes, uh, that Kirk would usually have done in the original 763 00:45:06,047 --> 00:45:09,707 series, but also have these psychological episodes where their number one is 764 00:45:09,707 --> 00:45:15,627 going down to do a covert operation at the same time as putting on an amdram 765 00:45:15,647 --> 00:45:18,347 performance by the ship's doctor. 766 00:45:20,539 --> 00:45:24,199 Kevin: Oh no, you, you've got a few days before the, uh, the mission. 767 00:45:24,229 --> 00:45:26,929 Um, so you can definitely be in the play first. 768 00:45:27,077 --> 00:45:28,397 Rob: can do opening night of the play. 769 00:45:30,619 --> 00:45:33,589 Kevin: How these people spend their time is, is very funny. 770 00:45:33,709 --> 00:45:34,519 Yes, I agree. 771 00:45:34,865 --> 00:45:38,975 I'm a sucker for these, these brain teaser episodes where you're not 772 00:45:38,975 --> 00:45:41,975 sure what's real and we revisit the same moments again and again. 773 00:45:41,975 --> 00:45:44,255 It was very Cause and Effect in that way. 774 00:45:44,255 --> 00:45:48,485 And, and this was one of the episodes written under the auspices 775 00:45:48,485 --> 00:45:52,355 of Brannon Bragga, who is master of this kind of storytelling, of 776 00:45:52,385 --> 00:45:53,975 like you second guessing yourself. 777 00:45:54,365 --> 00:45:56,435 Uh, uh, yeah, I really enjoy that. 778 00:45:57,468 --> 00:46:01,473 Rob: it's very much of a bygone era, this type of psychological 779 00:46:01,473 --> 00:46:07,053 drama because we have come so much further within our understanding of 780 00:46:07,908 --> 00:46:14,628 psychology of, uh, wellbeing of mental health and the definitions of, you 781 00:46:14,628 --> 00:46:20,598 know, uh, uh, uh, neuro spiciness as we call it, um, as I call it. 782 00:46:20,898 --> 00:46:26,178 Um, and so this is very much of a time of that eighties, nineties with 783 00:46:26,178 --> 00:46:31,458 that almost naive dramatization, uh, and especially putting it within the 784 00:46:31,458 --> 00:46:34,158 confines of a, of a play as well. 785 00:46:34,488 --> 00:46:38,373 So, it almost heightens it to that point of theatricality. 786 00:46:38,373 --> 00:46:43,413 I mean, I'm a huge comic book fan, uh, and uh, Batman fan as well. 787 00:46:43,413 --> 00:46:51,108 And the whole riddle of Batman's villains, uh, uh, all psychologically damaged or 788 00:46:51,108 --> 00:46:55,368 traumatized people, and as a kid you're there going, oh, isn't it so exciting? 789 00:46:55,368 --> 00:46:58,668 This good person, just one bad day sends them crazy and turns 790 00:46:58,668 --> 00:46:59,748 them into a super villain? 791 00:46:59,898 --> 00:47:03,348 And then when you get older and you, and especially you go, okay, well 792 00:47:03,348 --> 00:47:07,458 let's look at actually what this means from a psychological point of view and 793 00:47:07,458 --> 00:47:12,868 psychology and psychiatry, mental health and treatment and all that type of stuff. 794 00:47:12,868 --> 00:47:16,918 So it's, it's not disrespectful in this episode, but there is a 795 00:47:16,918 --> 00:47:21,328 heightened dramatization for that case of what is reality what isn't. 796 00:47:21,688 --> 00:47:26,728 And certainly a case of, uh, old school treatment in a, um, in a 797 00:47:26,728 --> 00:47:30,658 mental health facility was never, was not back in the day, was not 798 00:47:30,658 --> 00:47:33,328 as, um, understanding as it is now. 799 00:47:34,325 --> 00:47:40,895 Kevin: It's, uh, yeah, it's such a well done version of what it is going for here. 800 00:47:40,895 --> 00:47:46,655 The use of the play at like, I feel like that final time where Riker is kind of 801 00:47:46,655 --> 00:47:50,135 teasing it apart and figuring out what's going on, and he starts to play with it 802 00:47:50,135 --> 00:47:54,855 and he's, he's, he shouts you are lying and it gets a, a round of applause and 803 00:47:54,855 --> 00:47:58,715 then he does a bigger one they stand up and give him a standing ovation 804 00:47:58,715 --> 00:48:01,205 and then he breaks the entire reality. 805 00:48:01,205 --> 00:48:08,832 And, and, and that stuff of like the, the, the theatrical elements highlight 806 00:48:08,832 --> 00:48:13,962 the climax of this episode that I, I, I, I find it really enjoyable. 807 00:48:14,490 --> 00:48:19,240 Rob: Yes, and turning the metaphors into, into, you know, real visual effects. 808 00:48:19,240 --> 00:48:24,850 So he's literally shattering the walls and breaking down this deception in 809 00:48:25,047 --> 00:48:26,967 Kevin: What did you think of those shattering effects, 810 00:48:26,967 --> 00:48:29,067 those, uh, those 1990s, 811 00:48:29,235 --> 00:48:29,525 Rob: Love 812 00:48:30,327 --> 00:48:31,287 Kevin: video effects? 813 00:48:31,645 --> 00:48:32,305 Rob: Love it. 814 00:48:32,695 --> 00:48:33,565 Love it. 815 00:48:34,345 --> 00:48:36,475 I'm there going, that doesn't need to be updated at all. 816 00:48:36,475 --> 00:48:37,525 You're right, you're 817 00:48:37,617 --> 00:48:40,857 Kevin: When guy breaks apart and he goes, what just happened to him? 818 00:48:40,917 --> 00:48:41,577 It's so good. 819 00:48:45,430 --> 00:48:49,660 Rob: Um, but I love the fact that within this, what you could do with this type 820 00:48:49,660 --> 00:48:54,460 of drama is they created a whole world, a whole reality, even though it was. 821 00:48:54,550 --> 00:49:00,010 So you, you found out a little bit about the, the inmates within this 822 00:49:00,010 --> 00:49:05,350 delusion, guards their position of how and the history, like the guard 823 00:49:05,350 --> 00:49:08,860 saying the history of when we brought you in, you had blood on hands and the 824 00:49:08,860 --> 00:49:15,055 relationship between the guards and um the patients that was fleshed out. 825 00:49:15,462 --> 00:49:18,282 Kevin: And the other patients, whether they're delusional or not, knowing 826 00:49:18,282 --> 00:49:22,722 about Starfleet and being able to talk about starships and, and, and, 827 00:49:22,722 --> 00:49:24,462 and, ranks and things like that. 828 00:49:24,462 --> 00:49:24,702 Yeah. 829 00:49:24,702 --> 00:49:30,492 It really, it really is, uh, fleshed out in a, in a delightful way. 830 00:49:30,732 --> 00:49:31,032 Yeah. 831 00:49:31,195 --> 00:49:34,735 Rob: It's always, always great when you have one of the greatest actors of the 832 00:49:34,735 --> 00:49:38,725 last a hundred years, Patrick Stewart sitting there and they're going, well, 833 00:49:38,725 --> 00:49:41,725 I'm glad that you are doing it 'cause I don't want to be in Beverly's play. 834 00:49:42,490 --> 00:49:42,760 That's 835 00:49:42,942 --> 00:49:47,022 Kevin: It was, yes, it was conspicuous how little acting, uh, Picard 836 00:49:47,022 --> 00:49:48,582 got to do in this episode about 837 00:49:48,760 --> 00:49:51,190 Rob: Just sitting in the audience stone face. 838 00:49:52,150 --> 00:49:53,710 even when claps he stone face. 839 00:49:54,792 --> 00:49:55,122 Kevin: Yeah. 840 00:49:57,197 --> 00:50:00,147 Rob: And a beautiful moment at the end when everything is he, you know, 841 00:50:00,177 --> 00:50:05,307 Riker has got himself out of this situation and, uh, they go, well, 842 00:50:05,307 --> 00:50:06,627 we're striking the set tomorrow. 843 00:50:06,627 --> 00:50:07,287 And he goes, no, no, no. 844 00:50:07,287 --> 00:50:08,157 It's something I need to do. 845 00:50:08,157 --> 00:50:11,997 And the final shot of him is tearing down the set, ripping it 846 00:50:11,997 --> 00:50:14,997 down and going, wonderful stuff. 847 00:50:15,449 --> 00:50:15,839 Kevin: Yeah. 848 00:50:15,929 --> 00:50:16,949 Oh, it's so good. 849 00:50:17,099 --> 00:50:18,239 This one's a Yeah. 850 00:50:18,269 --> 00:50:20,399 There's nothing wrong with this episode at all. 851 00:50:21,297 --> 00:50:22,892 Rob: No, not at all. 852 00:50:23,519 --> 00:50:26,099 Kevin: This is, this is peak Star Trek: The Next Generation. 853 00:50:26,099 --> 00:50:31,949 When they were telling these stories that were within the world, but they were 854 00:50:32,009 --> 00:50:39,504 about the characters, like these character based stories within this very rich world 855 00:50:39,504 --> 00:50:41,544 that they had built up after six seasons. 856 00:50:41,754 --> 00:50:46,134 Just seeing the dynamics between Riker and Troi, the fact that when 857 00:50:46,434 --> 00:50:48,354 you know Riker gets freaked out, it. 858 00:50:49,079 --> 00:50:52,769 It doesn't cut to, oh, I better make an appointment with the ship's counselor. 859 00:50:52,769 --> 00:50:59,489 It cuts to him and Troi at the bar in Ten Forward mid-conversation, this shorthand 860 00:50:59,489 --> 00:51:03,479 that of course, he would go to talk to her and there would be no beating about the 861 00:51:03,479 --> 00:51:05,339 bush because they know each other so well. 862 00:51:05,339 --> 00:51:09,269 They would jump straight into it, and because they have such a clo close ship. 863 00:51:09,289 --> 00:51:10,219 Relationship. 864 00:51:10,669 --> 00:51:14,539 The, the run in with Data in the hallway where he congratulates him on his 865 00:51:14,539 --> 00:51:20,909 improv, uh, for, for a truly realistic portrayal of multi-infarct dementia. 866 00:51:24,939 --> 00:51:29,979 It is all sitting on six seasons of character building and world 867 00:51:29,979 --> 00:51:35,439 building that lets us do these fun things, uh, with very little setup. 868 00:51:35,589 --> 00:51:39,759 Um, and yeah, it's so rewarding to watch peak, peak TNG. 869 00:51:40,487 --> 00:51:46,837 Rob: And like Conscience of the King, very little is focused on sci-fi, really. 870 00:51:46,837 --> 00:51:53,407 It's, it's, it's a very psychological based drama, um, and suspense story. 871 00:51:53,437 --> 00:51:54,937 And there's elements of sort, like, 872 00:51:54,977 --> 00:51:57,977 Kevin: an alien race is introduced but not really commented on. 873 00:51:57,977 --> 00:52:01,307 We, we are left to infer what kind of aliens they are. 874 00:52:01,937 --> 00:52:09,857 Just the, the machine that projects parts of Riker's psyche, which we accept as 875 00:52:09,857 --> 00:52:14,657 a potential sci-fi thing, but turns out to be part of the delusion all along. 876 00:52:14,987 --> 00:52:15,377 Yeah. 877 00:52:15,377 --> 00:52:17,177 So yeah, the great stuff. 878 00:52:17,895 --> 00:52:20,325 Rob: And so like there's, you know, the government has collapsed and 879 00:52:20,325 --> 00:52:23,745 so they're going to this world to find out what's going on that could 880 00:52:23,745 --> 00:52:27,615 be happening on Earth, that could, you it's that type of stuff isn't. 881 00:52:28,335 --> 00:52:32,085 It's sci-fi is at its best when it's dealing with issues of, you know, 882 00:52:32,385 --> 00:52:34,125 our time that we can connect with. 883 00:52:34,185 --> 00:52:42,165 And, um, I just love the fact that the staging as well, like watching, 884 00:52:42,675 --> 00:52:46,095 uh, Conscience of the King and then watching Frame of Mind and the 885 00:52:46,155 --> 00:52:48,285 staging is set up very much the same. 886 00:52:48,285 --> 00:52:48,495 So 887 00:52:48,692 --> 00:52:51,482 Kevin: Yeah, they're reusing a room that's normally something else. 888 00:52:51,482 --> 00:52:51,842 Yeah. 889 00:52:52,455 --> 00:52:55,905 Rob: Even, yeah, 150 years or however many years later, they, 890 00:52:56,115 --> 00:52:57,915 they don't know how to do theater. 891 00:52:58,202 --> 00:52:58,412 Kevin: Yeah. 892 00:52:58,785 --> 00:53:02,145 Rob: just turn this function, this function room, and in, so 893 00:53:02,385 --> 00:53:03,855 they at least they have tiered 894 00:53:03,872 --> 00:53:07,382 Kevin: To be fair, a lot of theater is that way too these days, Rob. 895 00:53:07,485 --> 00:53:08,890 Rob: Lot of independent theater, yes. 896 00:53:09,315 --> 00:53:09,945 Yeah, yeah, yeah. 897 00:53:10,155 --> 00:53:13,575 The fact that they have tiered as opposed just all on the one level. 898 00:53:13,757 --> 00:53:14,177 Kevin: Yeah. 899 00:53:14,850 --> 00:53:17,280 Rob: Um, I'm very impressed that they'll go, well, at least we need to have 900 00:53:17,280 --> 00:53:19,350 it on, on a raised stage at point, 901 00:53:19,877 --> 00:53:21,737 Kevin: We need to replicate some rostra. 902 00:53:24,150 --> 00:53:28,230 Rob: But the lighting is just pure, just one light, no color, no tone at all. 903 00:53:28,530 --> 00:53:28,950 Just yeah. 904 00:53:28,980 --> 00:53:29,490 Lights on. 905 00:53:29,490 --> 00:53:30,030 Lights off. 906 00:53:31,874 --> 00:53:33,569 Kevin: We had exact match this week, 907 00:53:33,590 --> 00:53:35,135 Rob: uh, I think that's the first time. 908 00:53:35,519 --> 00:53:35,849 Kevin: Yeah. 909 00:53:36,158 --> 00:53:38,678 Rob: That is the first time we, uh, have matched that way. 910 00:53:39,068 --> 00:53:43,808 Uh, which shows, uh, how precise, um, how limited there are in the range 911 00:53:43,808 --> 00:53:45,818 of, of theater within Star Trek. 912 00:53:45,848 --> 00:53:49,628 There's also the beautiful episode, which we have talked about before in Prodigy, 913 00:53:49,808 --> 00:53:54,908 where they do a theatrical representation of what Starfleet meets to them in 914 00:53:54,960 --> 00:53:56,215 Kevin: All the World's a Stage. 915 00:53:56,468 --> 00:53:57,128 Rob: Yes. 916 00:53:57,153 --> 00:53:57,578 Yeah, yeah. 917 00:53:57,578 --> 00:53:57,878 Yes. 918 00:53:57,878 --> 00:53:59,678 But we have talked about that one before. 919 00:54:00,038 --> 00:54:06,518 Um, and at one point I would love to see a, uh, the full Klingon version of Hamlet. 920 00:54:08,515 --> 00:54:12,055 Kevin: Very good, or at least the opera that ends with three inches 921 00:54:12,055 --> 00:54:13,435 of blood sloshing around the 922 00:54:14,348 --> 00:54:15,398 Rob: That's right. 923 00:54:15,938 --> 00:54:17,468 J Tilly go. 924 00:54:17,648 --> 00:54:19,448 Well that was a lot of blood. 925 00:54:20,018 --> 00:54:20,178 you Jay-Den. 926 00:54:21,968 --> 00:54:24,758 Lot of murder and a lot blood in those Klingon 927 00:54:24,970 --> 00:54:25,260 Kevin: Snap, 928 00:54:26,228 --> 00:54:26,918 Rob: Snap, snap, snap.