I'm Travis Bader and this is The
Silvercore Podcast.
Join me as I discuss matters related to
hunting, fishing, and outdoor pursuits
with the people in businesses that comprise
of the community.
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properly covered during your outdoors adventures.
Today, I'm remotely recording online with
Todd Hisey, Canadian combat veteran and
founder of Veteran Hunters in Alberta.
Veteran Hunters takes veterans and first
responders suffering from PTSD and provides
them with a positive experience and a
supportive group.
So Todd, you and I spoke earlier and the value
that we're hoping to bring to our listeners
here is we're hoping to talk about mental
health and PTSD from your perspective.
Your journey that brought you to the
inception of Veteran Hunters and what Veteran
Hunters is and does.
So Todd, welcome to The Silvercore Podcast.
Travis, thanks for having me on and making time for
this important issue with respect to mental health
and particular mental health in veterans,
and first responders.
You served in the Canadian military
for some time and you're open a boat
suffering from PTSD.
Can you tell me a little bit about PTSD?
Can you educate me and the listeners about,
at least from your perspective, PTSD?
Sure.
So I'll just talk a little bit about my
experience and how I ended up getting
diagnosed with with PTSD.
So I served for a total of 22 years in
the Canadian army.
Mostly with the First Battalion Princess
Patricia's Canadian Light Infantry, just a little
plug for the Patricia's.
So yeah, no, graduated the royal military
college, served in both the regular
rounds reserve army.
Like I said, for 22 years, 15 of that on
full-time service, served overseas, three times.
It was in my Kosovo tour in 1999 that unbeknownst
to me that, when I got home, I was actually
starting to suffer the early effects of PTSD.
And then in 2001, I decided to leave the
Canadian military and really it was the fight
or flight aspects of PTSD that were causing
me to have, unbeknownst to me, mental health
issues at that time.
And I left the Canadian army the first time
and the medical system actually in my departure,
medical actually knew I had PTSD and actually
withheld it from me.
In fact, wrote in the margins, on my medical
records, that I had PTSD where I not getting
out, they would have been treating me for it.
And then they went so far, is that when I
requested copies of my medical records later,
they actually redacted those portions, so
that I didn't even know that I had it.
Crazy.
Yeah.
So, and I'm not the only one that's
had this happen to.
It's been, it's an ongoing issue with
the Canadian forces in particular, a lot of
issues that came out of the former Yugoslavia
where medical conditions or periods of time were
actually completely wiped clean of military
records, so that's a whole other story.
But in my case, it was my medical records that were
kept kind of from me.
I got back in 2007, got a letter from the
Canadian army, asking me to come back with
the war in Afghanistan.
Didn't deploy to Afghanistan largely
because they started to, I and others, started
to figure out that there was probably something
wrong with my mental health at the time.
Hmm.
That started kind of the long process
towards a treatment.
It was actually a civilian mental health
practitioner who was working with soldiers
in another practice who was very interested in
my military service.
And he kind of put two and two together
and said, hey, I think you have PTSD.
And I was like, okay.
So he encouraged me to put in an application
to Veterans Affairs for some kind of operational
stress injury.
At that time then the Canadian army didn't
need me anymore.
We were winding down from our tours in Afghanistan.
So I transitioned to a job with oil and gas
in Calgary and ended up getting put into
the operational stress injury clinic here in
Calgary and was one of the early intakes.
And they diagnosed me with PTSD and I started
the next six and a half years of treatment.
In 2014 I was laid off for the oil and
gas and that kind of started the big downturn
here in Alberta with respect to oil and gas.
But I had a couple of different things
that were going on at the same time.
So one, I was being treated for my PTSD
and in my case, my PTSD didn't
necessarily a result from being shot at.
I was in a helicopter in Kosovo, took five,
five rounds from a 12.7 up into the belly.
We'd have little kids that would throw
firecrackers at us with, you know, pieces
of metal attached to it, et cetera.
I previously served in Bosnia and one of the
things that I'd been responsible for was doing
the intelligence prep for battle going into Kosovo.
Which we were sent into an area that had the bulk
of the issues relating to the genocides in Kosovo.
But also one of the things we, for those
of us who had already been in the form of
Yugoslavia, we kind of had generalized
culturally that they were going to be, the
Kosovor's were going to be very similar to the
Bosniaks or the Croats or the Serb's that we,
that we had dealt with.
And I was sorely sorely mistaken on that one.
I had actually in preparation to go over,
I'd actually found a German officer's diary
and he'd served, in Kosovo and a lot of the
issues that he talked about logistically,
and then culturally with the locals we
actually encountered like decades later.
And we ran into all the same issues.
So one of the things I found challenging over
there was in the 1990s and going into early
2000, the Canadian military or Canadian
army was still very, you know, very political,
senior leadership was very hesitant
to make decisions.
You know, we used to have a saying where, you know,
a better to be judged by 12 then carried by six.
When the reality is, was, it was actually
better to be carried by six than to attend,
to be judged by 12.
And so we had a very gun shy leadership.
So when we went into Kosovo, the federal
government at the time, the liberal
government had restricted the number of guys
that we could take.
So we had a battle group of just over 600.
Now, when I went in there, I had seven jobs
and no staff to do it because of the numbers.
So I worked six months, 19 hour days, the five
hours that I did get to sleep we're not
a consecutive and so basically when you're
sleep deprived, your ability to make sound
mental decisions or your brain's ability
to cope with stress is greatly reduced.
Sure.
So couple that with leadership that is
not making decisions, my bosses would
not make decisions.
So really it was left to me and two other
captains to pretty much run this battle group.
And as a result, we ended up basically
getting PTSD as well as our careers ended
up getting sacrificed because of it, but it
was to do, but we did the right thing, you know?
So I ain't, so the attributes of my
PTSD is I have issues with authority.
I have issues, so I have anxiety, I have
anger management issues.
So I could go on.
There's about six different attributes
of PTSD that I have and they classified
my PTSD is one of the most severe that they
had seen at the time.
Plus what made it more severe was that I
went, you know, almost 15 years undiagnosed
and untreated.
Right.
So in 2014, when I got laid off and was in
treatment, what I was doing with Veterans
Affairs was I was, I'd been in a seven year
battle I'll use those terms appropriately
battle with the mid-level management within
Veterans Affairs, and then including my member
of parliament, Blake Richards, and his staff,
they were struggling to try and get into
Veterans Affairs to look at, because of my
PTSD diagnosis, it was like largely believed
that, if I got my PTSD from Kosovo in 99, and
I had to release medical in 2001, you know.
Ahh, that game.
Yeah.
That game.
So should I have been medically released.
So long story short, just so happens, a total God
thing I tell people, I happened to call into
a local radio station here in the Calgary
area and Daniel Smith at the time was the host.
And she had Kent Hare who was the new minister of
Veterans Affairs on there and this was in 2014.
So I hadn't been getting any funding yet from
Veterans Affairs, so I'm on air with him and
I'm bawling my eyes out.
I'd burned through like a hundred thousand
dollars of my life savings, trying to
support my family and I after getting laid
off with oil and gas.
My treatment was in was in question because I'm
trying to find jobs.
And he basically, I put him on the spot and he
had no choice, but to say, hey, you know what,
we're going to help you.
We're going to go off air, he says, I'm going
to give you my executive assistance, phone number,
you're going to call her tomorrow and he says.
Wow.
We'll take it from there.
And really, and he did follow through.
Wow.
He ended up organizing a meeting with the
current Minister of National Defence.
Interesting enough, we served
together in Bosnia.
Himself, my member of parliament and then he,
basically told a bunch of generals to go on redact
my medical files and they had a meeting in Ottawa
and it basically, it was a holy crap, when they
saw what was written.
And it was basically flood gates opened up,
you know, put me in a rehabilitation or
retraining program.
At the time, put me on the earnings
loss program, they were likely facing a
massive lawsuit if they didn't do something.
But that was a lengthy battle, that
took seven years to get to that moment.
And that doesn't help PTSD.
No it doesn't.
And that's one of the issues and we can talk
about that a little bit more when we talk
about specifically about the Veteran Hunters.
But you know, a lot of guys are not in a
frame of mind to be able to deal with a
massive bureaucracy that is Veterans Affairs.
Right.
And I had, and I worked briefly for Parks Canada
for about three months.
That was in an attempt for Veterans Affairs
for me to see if I could get reintegrated back
into the workplace.
And my boss there had been a director
in Veterans Affairs for coming over
to Parks Canada.
And she told me, she said, you know, the issue
was middle-management and Veterans Affairs
is that right?
So Veterans Affairs is completely managed out of
Prince Edward Island and it's staffed by people
in Prince Edward Islands.
So she goes, the issue is, is that the people
from PEI who have jobs with VAC, look at the
issues and go, well, I have 20 years to resolve
this issue because they just look at it as a job.
Right.
But a veteran, we don't have 20 years.
No, you don't.
Some of us might not be here next week, let
alone 20 years from now and we have families
and different things.
And so it was when I saw that, I was like,
Whoa, you know, that's why some of us take
seven years dealing with these guys and or,
you know, I have other injuries, you know, like
being in the infantry is really, it's like
playing on a pro football team without padding.
Mhmm.
That's what I tell people.
And we suffer like, you know, I tore my
lisfranc ligament, and if you look that up,
that's a common NFL injury that's usually a
casting for eight weeks.
Well, I wrapped it with a tensor bandage
and took a bottle of aspirin and kept going.
And that resulted in the knee left
knee and hip issues.
And I went to three hearings on those,
but was successful.
So one of the things that I found was good was all
of these struggles that I went through really helps
me relate with veterans.
CAuse I've gone through many cases, it's taken
me longer and through more challenges to
get the benefits that I have today.
And so that puts me in a position where, when I'm
working one-on-one with veterans or talking to
guys through our social media or we're just
happen to be out hunting with the Veteran Hunters.
It helps me better relate with guys and
then and I hope my experiences are able to
encourage other guys.
So that they go well, you know, Todd went through
way more than what I'm currently going through
so hopefully we can inspire and encourage
other veterans to just stick with the fight.
Suicide has been a huge issue.
I know, I talk to my American counterparts
and we've got a really good relationship with
a group like us out of like the Veteran
Hunters out of Oregon.
I mean, they were seeing 22 a day.
Now, we're not seeing those numbers up here,
but at one point we were seeing probably
four to five a week.
Geez.
One of my hunter hosts, he's one of the few guys
still alive from his platoon in Afghanistan.
Those that didn't die in Afghanistan have
taken their lives here.
Well before we go too far into the advent
of Veteran Hunters and looking at you as a
role model for other people to be able
to take their lead.
You mentioned a lot of things here and there's.
Sorry, yeah.
I know it's a huge topic and I'm trying to keep it
specific to me, but yeah.
It's massive and I gotta, maybe I'll just
jump right into this question as you're
going through that.
It's very clear to me that you've said
this before, and you've told us before.
And tone, the pitch, the verbal, the pair
of verbal, there are instances of activation
that, that you can see as you're going through it.
The areas that are going to be more
difficult to talk about.
Do you find it's like going down a dirt
road where you end up wearing some ruts in
it and the more you go down that same road,
the more you keep going to those same ruts.
And you start ingraining the same sort of physical
and psychophysiological responses to what
you're talking about.
Like, is it difficult to go through and talk about
this over and over again?
Well, in some ways yes and in some ways no.
So I mean, while we've been talking about this,
so I've been having like mental flashbacks to
all of the conversations and all the incidences.
Right.
Of everything about it.
But one of the things I've learned is that,
you know, so the whole time I'm talking about
it and we're doing this interview, I'm
also self-talking.
So in the back of my mind, I'm telling myself,
you know what, it's okay.
Like, I know why I'm feeling these ways, but
you know, the benefits outweigh the negative
feelings I'm have.
Like, you know, if I can encourage and inspire and
help and serve others, then that's better then,
you know, for half hour or so interview, I can
endure that and then decompress afterwards.
You mentioned that at the beginning there you
three times overseas, 2001 left the military,
but you said that you can look back now and
see that at one point you were suffering the
early effects of PTSD.
Yes.
At the time you probably didn't recognize it
and maybe somebody.
No.
Listening to this podcast might be going
through something similar and not recognize it.
Would you be willing to identify some of
those early effects of PTSD that with the
benefit of hindsight, you're able to.
Sure.
One of the things, one of the things I
used to call it was passionate frustration.
I like that term.
Yeah.
And cause I've always been, one of the
things that's always frustrated me is that,
as a leader is when the organization does
not allow it to reach its maximum potential
because usually senior leaders are in the way.
So for me, in our recall, you know,
having that passionate frustration was one
of the early signs of having PTSD and really
that's a combination of, I'll try and break it
down into sentiments.
So, anxiety, fight or flight, there's a lot
of anger, anger and frustration in there.
So when I was working in the civilian sector from
2001 till 2007, I either left organizations by
choice or were laid off.
Sometimes I didn't stay with an organization
for very long, and that was also one of the
indicators when I was doing the intake for
the operational stress injury clinic here.
Was, you know, how many jobs did you have in a
given period of time?
So I think, trying to remember now, but
you know, I've worked for almost every
oil and gas producer in the oil sands.
If you were to know then what you know now, when
you first saw those early signs, what advice would
you give to somebody.
What advice would you give yourself?
My dad told me when I was getting out.
He's like, you know, well what are you going to do?
And I was getting out without even a plan.
I just wanted out.
Right.
And so my advice to you or any of your listeners
would be, take a deep breath and stay in,
don't don't leave out of anger or frustration.
And I know that it's hard because if you're
early onset, it's hard.
Cause all you want to do is just, it's just
get out, get away.
I mean, for five years, I couldn't even stand
to look at a uniform and then I went and then
we go into Afghanistan and then one day
in August, 2006 for soldiers, I used to serve
that I used to serve with died in one day.
And that just changed, now I wanted back again.
Yeah, you know what, just be patient, seek
help, find the right people to talk to.
And I didn't, when I think back now, I went
to different people to try and get advice, but
their careers had already been, their careers
were already over.
So there were guys in JTF2, that I knew.
And those are guys that I should have
been talking to who are still serving and we're
having good careers.
In fact, we were at bowling and spending
time together and my wife's actually related
to one of the guys that was serving at the time.
And those were the guys I should have been talking
to and looking for some advice, not looking
at older guys whose careers were now over.
So I would say be patient, take a deep
breath, try and get the medical system
onside for you.
And then reach out to guys whose careers are
still moving forward and who you can trust.
And that's one of the things I think back now,
and even my wife, we were talking about it
last week on our kind of on our date night.
Was that like, she even agreed.
She was like, yeah, why didn't we, we
sat down was a couple all the time, like
one was her cousin.
And I'm like, yeah, I don't know why I didn't
even like talk to him.
And, cause he could have probably helped
me out better than any of the other officers
that I was talking to.
So anyhow, I mean, hindsight's 2020.
Of course.
But being able to share that with others can
be helpful for sure.
Yeah.
Now, and I'm just speculating here
a little bit, but.
Yep.
Mental health has a social stigma
attached to it.
I mean, there.
Yes.
Unfortunately, it does and people look at mental
health as a bad thing.
And you'd mentioned that I was at the
lithfranc tendon?
IS that what you called it?
Yeah, the lisfranc.
Yeah.
Okay.
So you'd injured your lisfranc tendon and if
you were to go into a doctor and have them
take a look at you, a doctor could probably
diagnose that there's a procedure for being
able to look at them.
Yeah, simple Xray and yeah.
Right.
And you were saying what, six to eight weeks,
put it in a cast and.
Yep.
There we go.
We know the process in order to be able to deal
with an injury like that.
And if left unabated, it will develop into
other things like knee and hip problems
like it did in you.
Sure.
Different people with different genetic makeups
will, maybe they're more heavy set and they're
going to need a little bit longer before they
could put weight on it or maybe there, but
these are all variables that we know about.
And it's easy to look at.
With mental health, it seems that since
there is this level of unknown, which is
actually starting to get narrowed down, I
mean they're learning more and more about how
to quantitatively and qualitatively define
the mental health.
But since it's sort of this more nebulous
sort of thing, it seems that, I don't know
and I'm just speaking from observation here.
But one of two things happen either A.
I people will look at it and be dismissive
of it because they say, oh, I can't be
anything, I can't see the issue right.
Or B.
somebody who is suffering from mental illness
may look at themselves as bad or wrong or
something that needs to be fixed as opposed
to this being a natural response, a natural,
psychological and physiological response
to a stressor in a life.
Just like the lisfranc tendon being
injured from too much stress or injury,
however it happened.
And with that, I don't know.
It can become.
Yeah.
I mean, you make a great analogy there and I'll
just carry with it.
Sure.
So with the lisfranc there's, yeah an x-ray
shows it, and there's a standard course of
treatment, but if it doesn't get treated,
then there's consequences and mental health
injuries like your brain.
So the issue is, people see a cast on
an arm or on a leg or, and that injury is
totally obvious, right?
Well, we don't physically see mental
health injuries.
We see the consequences of it, we can see
tremors or even while we're chatting and you
probably watch, I fidget.
Sure.
My wife gets nauseous all the time cause I
have one leg that just constantly moves and
it's funny, and it's from all the shooting
and training that I do.
Sure.
If we're watching a TV show and guys are
shooting, I don't even notice it, but
by muscles are still flinching, like I'm
shooting in the show and she totally notices it.
And she's been awesome.
You know, I've given her over the years,
lots of cause to leave and a lot of guys
do and she hasn't.
And I thank God for that.
That's massive.
And I thank her and she's been a really
key to my treatment.
So I'll back up a little bit, so just like the
lisfranc, not getting properly treated, and
I ended up with left knee and hip issues.
Well, with your PTSD not getting treated, then you
end up with, so I have irritable bowel, I have,
oh trying to think all the other consequences.
So veteran's affairs has a number of, I
think, 6 -10 other illnesses that you can
get just by having PTSD.
I mean, if your civilian doctor does the paperwork
for it, they like, yup.
It's in that list of 6 to 10 that we know,
because guys like me have slogged in the
trenches going through this and they've made a
lot of mistakes and you know what, I don't fault
the people that, that helped treat me, in the
six and a half years.
I mean, I was part of the plan, that was part
of the plan that Todd Hisey was going back to
the civilian workforce and that didn't work out
and we can, we'll talk about that in a bit.
So yeah, I mean mental health injuries
aren't usually seen.
My mom saw me as a different person when I
came home from Kosovo.
I mean she knew me, she knew me pre Kosovo,
my wife and I had been dating before
going to Kosovo.
But I mean your family is the one who knows
you the best right?
So my mom actually was, played a role in talking
to Veterans Affairs case management because she
knew baseline Todd Hisey.
My wife knew PTSD Todd and we were talking
about consequences too, you know, I
raised three kids being undiagnosed with PTSD.
So all three of them unfortunately, whether
it's, they're still doing studies to
determine whether there's genetics to PTSD, but
nurture versus nature.
Each one of them have a couple attributes of
my PTSD and one of the things I will say is the
treatment that I ever received from Veterans
Affairs, with respect to treating my PTSD is
far and away superior to anything you will
see in a provincial mental health system.
It is absolutely.
Really?
Disgusting.
Really?
Our provincial mental health
programs, especially here in Alberta.
I've seen, cause veterans afairs didn't have much
to give for my family.
So a lot of what my kids got, their
treatment was in the public system and it is
absolutely disgusting.
In fact, I personally know more about trauma
treatment and therapy than the people being
paid to do trauma treatment and therapy.
I believe that.
And it's funny, I could feel that like right in
my chest, it's like, Oh my, I could feel that
more than talking about Kosovo because it just
really, it's just really bothersome about it.
So, I know veterans who I've hunted with,
complain about Veterans Affairs and then, but I
also have the privilege of being able to see the
provincial public system.
And I'm like, hey man, count yourself lucky
that you did not get stuck in the provincial
mental health system.
I mean, when I first started, I was seeing a
therapist twice a week.
I went six and a half years of treatment,
that's like, unheard of.
Wow.
Like you do that, figure out the dollars and cents
that Veterans Affairs had to pay to get me to
a point where I could run a non-for-profit
organization.
Sure.
And host guys for 75 days.
Now, do I get burnout?
Yeah, sure.
And we'll talk about that too.
Well, one thing that I've noticed and you brought
up a really interesting point and you're bringing
up a whole bunch of points and I'll apologize
for interrupting, but I want to make sure we can.
No it's all good, yeah, yeah, no.
Yeah.
I want to make sure we touch on some of these
points because I think they're important.
So you mentioned about the nature and nurture.
Yep.
And your children having different symptoms of
PTSD and from everyone's different, everyone's
going to have different carriers for a logical
or emotional or cognitive resilience as that'll
allow them to react to stressors differently.
Yep.
But historically speaking PTSD was something
that people looked at as well, it's shell
shock or, it was under the DSM4, I think as a
general anxiety disorder, DSM5 a few years ago,
they brought it into its own new category
and it's more, what the stressor related
trauma and stressor related disorders.
And it's constantly evolving.
And the criteria being a cluster disorder,
cause it affects there's a numerous, it's not
just one thing, it's not just hey, I've got
a broken bone, right?
It's got all these different parts.
You got your stressor.
And then from what I understand, we're looking
at recurring thoughts, avoidance, hyper arousal,
and you start putting all these things together
and they say, Hey, let's call that PTSD.
The fact that it's being taken outside
of just those who are in the military
or first responders or in these hugely
traumatic situations I find interesting.
And I also find it interesting the
response from some.
I was talking with a friend of mine a couple
of days ago, an American individual, his family
is all in the military.
His brother's best friend's a seal and
diagnosed with PTSD now my friend's wife was in
a horrific car accident and brain injury, few
other things, but she was diagnosed with PTSD.
And when this Navy seal fellow heard
about this, he lost it.
He's like, how the hell does she have PTSD
from this car accident?
And she hasn't seen the horrors that I've seen.
And I guess it comes down to the perception
of what PTSD is.
And it's constantly changing, I guess to
some degree, with the lack of understanding,
there's going to be a level of ownership that
people take over it.
They maybe wear it, and instead of being,
Hey, I'm Bob with the broken foot, no
one would say that.
But they will say, Hey, there's Bob with PTSD
and I think that adds to the social stigma
associated with PTSD.
Cause personally, I think it's a
very natural thing.
I think it's absolutely natural for somebody
who's gone through the things that you've gone
through to have the same physiological and
psychological response.
And it's evident in the fact that lots of other
people go through the exact same thing as well.
Yeah.
And you know, and I really feel for some of
those people, like for civilians, because they
ended up having some of the same issues that
we do and they don't have the same support
structure that those of us who were served
in the military or are first responders.
And like I said, I've seen the civilian side
because of my kids, or because of other family
that have had to go through this, the public
health system in Canada.
When I was going through early treatment for
PTSD and it's part of like my, one of the
things they tell you in therapy is you start to
change how you react or look at things right.
So I used to, I used to get angry at civilians
in the workplace because they'd freak out if
the photocopier stopped working, like to them
that was absolutely the worst day ever.
And I was like, seriously, it's not
life or death, you're not being shot at like,
you know, seriously.
And I found actually getting shot at was
both exhilarating and terrifying at
the same moment.
So you're like cool I'm getting shot at, holy
crap I'm getting shot at.
Right.
But then it was started, you get to you flip that
upside down and like, yeah for most civilians,
the worst day in their life is gonna be when
that photocopier doesn't work, when they they're
five minutes from doing a presentation because,
one they're not trained the same as we are.
It wouldn't have prepared, they're
waiting till the last minute to make those
photocopies rather than planning well an ahead
and all those times.
So they're just not, they just don't see
the world the same way we do because, Hey,
I've been been in the army since I was 19.
So my brain, so one of the things they found
too, like for those of us who joined 18, 19,
our brains are still adapting and molding
so by 25, your human brain doesn't really
start solidifying itself till it's about age 25.
Right.
And my dad used to say, you don't grow a brain
until you're about 25.
Yeah.
So for a lot of us who have served in the
military, especially guys on the pointy end
of the spear and you learn to be hypervigilant
and you've been trained that way since, you
know, you're like 18.
MY sons are joining the army reserves and I
got one who's probably gonna join when he's 16.
So when you start training kids that are
16, 17, 18, and you're training them a certain
way and you're teaching them to be on, it's, and
they're on all the time until they're 25 and
then their brain is just, it's just stuck that way.
It's hard because the army doesn't train
you to integrate back into society.
We train you to integrate into the military.
Right.
But we don't train you to reintegrate back
into society and how to integrate, to deal
with deal with civilians and interact with them.
that also for veterans and first responders
that's that could be a trigger to just having
to deal with people that just don't think
or get it, like we do.
So, but yeah.
I guess where I was sort of going with the
perception of PTSD and what causes PTSD and how
this seal can be upset because somebody else
is in a car accident and they haven't seen
the same sort of things.
I would have to imagine that with that
perception, it can be difficult for those
in the military and those that have served
to come forward with issues of PTSD if they
personally look at their situation maybe
not as bad as the JTF2 fellows situation or.
You know, I was in some stuff, but I shouldn't
complain because this person seems fine and
they're in a whole bunch, a whole lot
worse than I was.
And I think just, well I guess I'll just ask.
Do you find that, is that something that you
see that people would be embarrassed or afraid
to come out because they don't feel that their
level of experience meets a threshold for PTSD or
what they feel PTSD is?
Yeah.
You know, and I know guys today who have hunted
with us who are hesitant to still put in a claim
with Veterans Affairs for mental health, because
they're like, well there's other guys that
need it more than me.
You know what, like seriously put it in, let
the medical practitioners be the ones who make the
final decision whether or not you need to be
needed to be treated.
That's one of the reasons why I talk so
candidly, and as much as I can about my own
PTSD, it's really just to encourage other
guys to come forward.
It's not a stigma, it's something that happened.
And for me, I wouldn't be in a situation to be
able to serve soldiers again with the Veteran
Hunters had I not got the PTSD that I did get.
I look back and look at the journey, so, yeah
they redacted my files and yeah, I went through
seven years in this kind of stuff, but it set me
up to be in a perfect situation to be able to
have these discussions, to encourage and inspire
others, to start an organization like the
Veteran Hunters, and then really relate to guys.
Yeah.
I didn't, you know, I wasn't downrange
in Afghanistan, but I served in the former
Yugoslavia and just as a note, the actually the
guys who served in the former Yugoslavia, we
are the largest group of veterans that are
currently being treated.
You can go on a VAC's site, like
we're in the tens of thousands of guys.
In 2017, there were about 7,500 Afghan veterans
that were being treated for PTSD and they were a
fraction of the overall guys getting treated.
And based on my experience, it takes
a guy about five to eight years before they
actually are in getting treated, because it
there's that journey where you have to get
to the right frame of mind where you're able
to to seek and accept help and treatment
Cause a lot of guys like me, like in 2001,
I wouldn't have been ready for treatment.
I would've been like, no, I don't have PTSD.
And it would probably would have triggered
me more and made me more angry.
It would have actually given the mental
health practitioners more ammunition to
say, yes, you do.
Because the more I resist it, but in 2012,
I was definitely in a place where I wanted to
get better and wanted to get treatment.
The unfortunate part is, you know, you know, I
wasn't the best father or husband for that first
13 years before I started getting treatment.
And so when I think about that, that can
really depress me, but I don't want to go, I
don't like to go there.
I kind of look at the here and now, and I spend
a lot of time with my kids and, heck I don't
know too many kids that can say they'd been
to Africa hunting with their dad, like twice.
No kidding.
Yeah.
And I mean, I have kids that have like top 50,
top 100, SCI animals.
Holy crow.
Yeah.
I always had a passion to go to Africa and I'm
one of these guys that's like, I'm not going
to Africa when I'm 70.
So I put a little bit of money, put a little
bit of money aside that I had received from
Veterans Affairs and took my whole family.
And we spent three weeks in South Africa and
the outfitter that I hunted with Rob Birch,
Royal Karoo Safaris, they're a sponsor of
the Veteran Hunters.
He's become a great friend and we're
like family and yeah, no it's great.
Actually our animals from the last trip
are probably getting shipped this week,
only about a year and a half behind schedule.
That's fantastic.
Yeah.
So yeah, so I try and make up for the
past, in the present.
Have you ever read the book, mans
search for meaning?
Or heard of it?
No.
You just made an interesting comment
and it was a book, it's an old book.
It's translated in a bunch of different
languages, but you said, if not for my experience,
I would not be in a position to help others.
And I like that.
I mean that's a really positive way to
frame what's happened and really change,
essentially, the way that you're looking at things
and change the way that you will respond to it.
Is that conscious?
You know, I think it's part of the other side
of treatments and therapy where you're kind of, and
I was fortunate that with part of my treatment,
you know, I was able to do a master's degree.
So I did a master's of science in international
construction management, because when I've been
in oil and gas, I'd been doing a lot of
project to maintenance management as well.
So they were looking for ways to build on
my existing civilian resume and get me
back in the workforce.
So it was one of those things.
But with that, I had to do a dissertation and I
did, went on a landmark study on leadership
styles of project and construction managers
in the oil sands.
And did a bunch of surveys and did some
comparative analysis for other regions in
the world that were heavy on project and
construction management.
And one of the things that I found was, why
I struggled in the oil sands was, man my
leadership style did not fit the prominent
style that's used in oil and gas in Alberta.
So they use a total authoritarian style.
Right.
So they bounce off between authoritarian or
Laissez-faire, depending on how politically
sensitive the decision is, whereas I use a
servant leadership style.
So basically I think from there just
started building more introspective and
I was able to start thinking more about
how I fit in, you know.
Your purpose.
Am I here for, yeah.
Yeah.
So and that was one of the things that I
struggled with, you know, when you can't soldier
anymore, it's like, what's your purpose?
Cause as guys, you know, we don't look at the
meat, the real meaning is, we're fathers
and husbands, right.
That should mean a lot to us, but unfortunately
we're guys and we're like, what do you do?
And even in the army it's like okay, are
you regular army?
Are you a special forces guy?
Or, and then the regular army, you're like, Oh,
do you have jump wings?
And all that kind of stuff.
It's like, we try and compare ourselves
based on who we are and what we've done.
And then when you can't do it anymore, it's like.
Then who are you?
Yeah.
Who am I?
What's my meaning, my purpose.
Right.
And I found meaning and purpose again, when I
started hunting again.
And I found that when I got into archery that
had started reinforcing the mindfulness
techniques and the grounding techniques.
And then when I coupled that with
the hunting piece, bow hunting is hard.
And I choose to make it even harder for myself.
I spot and stalk with bow.
So now I'm having to use all the skills that the
army taught me to hunt a human being, which if
you've hunted animals with bow spot and stalk.
Man hunting humans is way easier than hunting,
the smartest mule deer or elk or a white tail
or stuff like that.
And so I remember one season I broke
my collarbone in the summertime, mountain
biking with my boys, and then I was bow
hunting that fall with a broken collarbone.
So really it was just looking for
things to work on.
Cause I knew I couldn't make a long
bow shot given the broken collarbone.
So I worked really on my stalking and really,
I stalked this mule deer buck for an hour
and a half and came face-to-face with him.
And for me, that was it, that was awesome.
Cause I knew if I'd been healthy and you were
bigger, than I was in a position to take you.
So in my own mind, what that was
meaning and purpose.
I was able to use those skills that
I'd learned, I still had it, as a soldier,
that I could still do this stuff and, it's.
Good point.
It's funny, I found actually I'm going to
Africa for a hunt was actually really, I was
nearing the end of my treatment and found that
it's going to Africa was a really good way to
kind of close the books on my PTSD, my ability
to shoot and to soldier and because where I hunt
in Africa, it's spot and stalk with rifle and bow.
And it's five guys in a Jeep, so you're out
early morning and so it's kind of like being
in the army and you're in rugged train and
you're making, in some cases, making long shots
and that kind of stuff.
So again, for me, it was like just reinforcing
the positive things that I liked about
the army and then you reinforce like success.
I remembered the last shot I made to the first
time I went to Africa, it was a 300 metre shot
on sticks, 642 feet, different elevation and
an animal running uphill, passing another animal.
And I hit him in the vitals and then put a.
Wow.
Second round of broke and broke his femur.
Right.
And I was like, done.
Like that's, I don't know if I could make that
shot again today but.
I'll take it.
Yeah.
You know what, at that time to drop
that kudu, the way that we did was, yeah.
That's impressive.
I was elated.
Yeah.
I was elated.
And it just proved that no I still, though I'm
not wearing uniform anymore, I still have
what it takes to soldier.
Have you seen the short video?
I think Sitka put it out, called a place of peace.
Yes.
Yeah.
That's a great, totally resonates with me.
That's a great piece that they did.
I'll put a link to it in the podcast and
on the YouTube here so that other people
listening can watch that.
But when you're talking there, that just
kind of came to mind.
You mentioned something about brain development
and being about 25 when the brain starts
fully coagulating and solidifying and
into something and you talked about the
brain being stuck.
And from some of the reading and research
I've done, people are talking about neural
plasticity and the fact that the brain
can basically create new neural pathways and
it's something that's being used for PTSD.
And I guess when we talk about being able to
take an x-ray and there it is, you can see the
broken bone, but it's not as self-evident in
a mental health injury.
They're finding that essentially three main
parts of the brain are being affected the
amygdala where your emotions are affected
your hippocampus or your memory is.
And your prefrontal cortex or planning,
cognitive functions, short-term memory, all
of these sorts of things kind of take place.
I think looking at that and knowing a little
bit about some of the new techniques that
people are dealing with, do you think
that really a person's brain is stuck at 25?
Let's say they've got the PTSD and greened
them at that point.
Are they stuck or do you think they're able to
find proper function and enjoy through, whether
it's sort of a cognitive based therapy or some
sort of a mixture of medications and different
types of talk therapy?
Or do you think it's just something that that's
going to be cemented in?
Well, I think, I mean the trauma piece is
cemented in, or the hypervigilance piece is
probably cemented in.
Okay.
And there's a part of it that where, the day I
broke my collarbone was like the best day ever.
And so for those of us, who've been like
trained to deal with the emergency situation,
so a lot of us, like we don't, our PTSD doesn't
prevent us from handling an emergency situation.
Like an active shooter or dealing with a
medical emergency or that kind of stuff.
Sure.
Actually, it actually drives.
You thrive.
The opposite.
We thrive.
Cause.
That's the best.
Your outside matches your inside.
What's happening outside matches what's
going on in your head.
Right.
So that's the best drug piece ever.
Right.
The problem is, is that.
You can't live that way right.
Even though your brain loves that you
can't live that way.
So I'll try and answer this as best as I
can and succinctly.
So for me, one of the things I think
anybody with PTSD, if they're in a position
where they're willing to get better, can.
I'll speak from my own personal perspective.
So for me, we looked at it from a
holistic standpoint.
So yes, I had talk therapy, I did EMDR.
Right.
Was the therapy that worked for me, not
the light bar, but my therapist using
his hand up and down.
The finger back and forth and.
Yeah.
And just for the listeners who are, might
not be familiar with it, that's, you can do
tapping, you can do an eye light bar going back
and forth, tracking a finger, but essentially
it's taking from the hippocampus a long-term
memory and you're recalling it as a short
term memory, and you're essentially fuzzing it
out by looking back and forth really quickly or
tapping really quickly.
And that would be an accurate
description right?
You're taking the emotional impact
out of the memory.
Yep.
Okay.
And then, so we're talking about,
we've got the talk therapy in there.
We've got the EMDR, drug therapy.
So finding the right, so I'm on three
different meds, the rest of my life.
And for some guys, the meds aren't their
thing and they find other things, but I'm
just talking about my own personal.
So I felt, physical fitness.
Right.
Staying active.
Right.
And because I mean, our brains, my brain got
injured in Kosovo because I was sleep deprived.
So actually I have permanent insomnia as a
consequence to my PTSD.
So I actually wake up every day, more
tired than I was when I fell asleep.
Geez.
So for me, morning hunts are really hard.
No kidding.
But so yeah, and then a good sleep and a
good social network.
So I had no veteran buddies, at all
when I was going through treatment.
I had no mentoring at all.
I knew nobody else at the OSI clinic that
I was going through, there was no group.
It was me, my wife, my parents, our
church, that was kinda my social network.
Right.
Yeah.
So that was kind of like, those multiple
factors and you have to, it's something
you have to work at.
Yeah, it's like, you can't go to the gym
and try and work out with a trainer and
expect to be fit if you don't put the reps in.
Right.
And there are some guys out there that
are stuck in a rut with their PTSD because
they just can't get the tire out of the hole.
Right.
And I feel for those guys and one of the things
that the Veteran Hunters is really helping guys
overcome that anxiety.
Because that indicted piece really can rob you
of having a very fruitful and productive life.
I'm 48 years old and I got a lot more
years to go and I love hunting with guys.
Most of the guys that I, that I take out hunting
are 10 to 15 years younger than me and this
old guy is just pounding them into the dirt.
So that's awesome.
So I can still ruck with the rest with
the best of them.
That's awesome.
Well, want to talk about Veteran Hunters,
how it got started?
Sure.
So I started looking around and found in
Canada, there was no hunting organizations
that focused on veterans and dealing
with mental health and that kind of stuff.
But there were lots of guys in the US.
In fact I connected with one guy in
Oregon in particular, 22 outdoors is the
organization in Oregon.
And hopefully, big picture, long down the
road, we're able to do a joint hunt, whether here
in Alberta or in Montana.
Well that'd be cool.
For elk.
Yeah.
It's kind of something he and I have talked
about kind of big picture down the road.
So just threw the dice, put it out there
and came up with the term Veteran Hunters.
So one, I mean, I like kind of using plays
on playing on words, having kind of worked
with the media and stuff in the past.
Yeah.
We're veterans and we're hunting, but we're also
hunting for veterans.
We're trying to find guys to connect with
and to get into the organization and find out
about the organization and that kind of stuff.
Right.
So there's a little bit of duology there.
So, started the Veteran Hunter's got the website
up and running self self-funded for the
first year, connected with the right guys on
social media who helped get us some exposure.
We did a snow goose hunt that first year in 19,
and then it kind of just snowballed from there.
And by the end of 2019 we'd facilitated
activities for over 50 guys.
We had been talking to sponsors throughout
the year, in particular Vortex Canada, who
came on board right away at the beginning
of this year.
They've been a great sponsor, Reg Wells,
one of their field reps, he served in
Croatia with the RCR, was injured himself.
So, I mean, so there's some personal things
there when you look when you're looking
for sponsors, right?
So if you've got veterans inside another
organization that are able to vouch for
you too, it helps.
But they've been really generous with
us this year and there are still people out
there and I won't name organizations, but there
are organizations out there that are paid to
support veterans who market their products
using the veteran name.
Okay.
But do not agree that veterans with PTSD
should be hunting or using firearms.
Okay.
Yes.
So.
Interesting.
I'm running into those challenges.
Yeah.
That's gotta be difficult.
Yeah.
And you just kinda have to wash your hands
with that one cause I could see that being
one of the things that could bring in, what
was the term you use?
The passionate frustration.
Oh yeah.
I can feel it inside myself, especially when
you got on the record.
Like, I did a podcast with a psychologist from
the operational stress injury clinic saying we
are doing, what we're doing is exactly what
some veterans need.
Right.
Every veteran.
Some.
First responder.
Yeah.
I mean.
Not all.
We were a gap.
Right.
There's two groups doing fishing in Canada
and we're the only ones doing hunting.
Right.
We're the only organization of our kind
and we're a national organization this year.
So I have volunteers in BC, I have volunteers in
New Brunswick and Nova Scotia and Newfoundland
and I mean, majority of our hunts are here
in Alberta and we've actually had, we had guys
fly out from Ontario.
Wow.
To hunt elk this year.
We had a guy last year fly out from Ontario to
hunt because actually, we found out like, we can
actually bring veterans here into Alberta for
really reasonable rate with what we're doing.
Right.
So we're not an outfitter, have a great
relationship with the Outfitters Association,
but we're a hunter hosts.
So back to your initial question, so, what we do
is every year I sit down with the various hunter
hosts and I'll probably, I'm going to bring on a
few more guys next year.
And, we basically we'll sit down for a day,
probably this year it'll be on a zoom call
or something like that and we'll hammer out
kind of the hunting schedules tentatively,
especially the spring ones, we'll try and
get them up right away.
So if a veteran is out there, if actually,
if you were to Google Veteran Hunter or Veteran
Hunters, we're probably the number one Google
search to come up.
So that makes it easy.
Yeah.
You go on there and you'll find you'll
scroll down and you'll look at our calendar.
And really, we'll post all of their dates and
those are the dates that our hunter hosts, put
up and say, Hey, I'm willing and able to take
a guy for this period, in this locale, for
this specific animal.
And really it's connecting with the
organization, which would be me ,by email and I
try and talk to every veteran that connects
with our organization.
We've got over 500 now on our Facebook group,
so if I don't get back to you right away, it's
nothing personal, it's just, I'm a busy guy.
Just one man.
Just one man, yeah.
So it's just one man and you know what, I'm
a father with teenagers and I'm married and I've
got, this is supposed to be a side thing, right?
Not my full-time.
So that's the whole work-life balance peice.
So veteran would pay their own way, come
on out, be set up with somebody from
the organization.
Yep.
And when you guys go out, they've got the
opportunity to connect with somebody else who
may have similar life experiences and maybe
in a better place than they are, and able to
help them navigate from where they are now,
to someplace better.
Is that essentially the crux?
Yeah, that's essentially it.
Yeah.
Basically you contact us, tell us what you're
interested for dates, we'll connect to you.
Get yourself here and we'll take care of it.
We'll take care of the rest.
If you need accommodations, we'll
sort that out for you at a reasonable cost.
And essentially, they've got a hunting buddy,
but not just any hunting buddy, somebody who's,
receptivity helpful.
Right.
Who's walked in their shoes.
Right.
I use these analogies, I mean, one of the things
about veterans hunting with veterans or veterans
hunting with like first responders that kinda
stuff, there are a lot of first responders are
veterans themselves, they just transitioned from
the army into the being a policeman officer or
paramedic or firefighter.
It's just, it's similar work, but just different,
but similar stresses.
Is, when you're hunting, you wake up in the
morning and everyone pulls out their Ziploc
bags with their meds.
We all kind of laugh and look at each other
and it's like, there's a level of comfort, right?
You're not having to explain
anything, everybody knows you're at.
We talked about like having irritable bowel.
Well, when you when I pull over the truck,
the three other guys in the truck probably have
to go at the same time.
So we're all laughing about this.
So it's funny that you talking about
being candid.
Sure.
Like I'm totally candid.
Totally.
Because you know, it is just.
Is what it is.
It is what it is, right.
And so it's awesome.
And when you're hunting with guys and the guy
looks at you, or I look at a guy and I
go, Hey man, no stress, like you let me know
when you're ready to go, I'm going to grab
another cup of coffee.
You want one?
Yup.
And when you're ready, we'll go hunt.
And one of the, a good friend of mine
and former co-host on my podcast, Bryce, he
talked, he calls it windshield therapy.
To and from the hunt you're talking to a guy
and you're sharing your experiences and we've
had one of the guys who flew out here last year
and he got his PTSD from the Swiss air disaster.
He was in the Navy and having to clean that
up for three weeks.
Well, he couldn't fly for 12 years and the
first time he got on an airplane was to fly out
here and hunt with us.
Wow.
And it actually was, he flew on the anniversary
of the Swiss air disaster, but for him,
coming out here to Alberta for the first
time and pursuing elk with a backpack
was more important than, he just wanted
to experience that.
Good for him.
And we did a podcast with Damon when he was
here and then one a couple of weeks later
when he went home and actually we've stayed
good friends and I was talking to him yesterday.
And yeah, the lasting and lingering effect,
positive effects of coming out and
participating in the hunt is huge.
And he was going on, they were doing a family trip
to Costa Rica and he was starting to get kind of
the anxiety from flying on another airplane
and I said, Hey man, go back and listen to your
podcasts, listen to your own voice, telling you.
Right.
How therapeutic it was.
He was like, Oh yeah, that's what a great idea.
So that's why I encourage guys, I say,
check out our website, look at the hunts.
There's 35 podcasts from last year where we talked
to countless veterans.
They talk about their own post-traumatic
stress story, they talk about where they are
now and the successes and the segway in.
And that's one of the things we're going to,
we've focused on with the Veteran Hunters
show that's going to Sportsman's channel
is every episode we're looking at a veteran
or a first responder.
They'll talk about their journey, but
their success today.
So we've got veterans who have their own
businesses, they've overcome their
PTSD and have their own businesses.
Right.
Or they're like me and they're running another
nonprofit organization that's trying to help
first responders.
Just to help people, encourage people.
And then one of the episodes will be about
me, and it's kind of mine I think, is going to be
a bit of a compilation.
It's got to go to the editors still, but
mine will probably be a compilation showing how,
for me, it's therapeutic serving the other guys.
Right.
Having been a former officer and it's funny
you liked my tagline on my cell phone.
I saw that yeah.
So in order to be a leader, you must
first be a servant.
Right.
And so, and I truly believe that, and it's
all that kind of from the adage, know your men and
promote their welfare.
So I get therapy by running the organization,
helping out guys and there's countless guys
who put up testimonials and we try and track
those as many cause sponsors love to
see that stuff.
Just talking about the benefits.
This year we put activities on for over
75 guys this year.
And we'll probably by the end of the hunting
season, who's still got some special elk
season's going on here in Alberta, so we'll
probably have put it on a combined like 190 days
of hunting this year.
Wow.
Yeah and.
That's impressive.
That's kind of that's yeah, and that's a
capacity I think, for where we're at right now.
So we need to kind of grow the organization
a little bit more and that's great, you
know, by bringing on a guy like Jeff, to
look after they'll do the whole sponsorship
piece cause that can be a full-time job.
Looking for organizations to help us with gifts
in kind or dollars to help the operations.
Well, is there anything else we should
be talking about?
Anything that you think we should be
getting out there before we start looking
at wrapping up here?
I think it's just letting other veterans, first
responders know, you know what, you're not alone.
There are over 500 people on our Facebook
group, there's countless guides and ladies the
last couple of years that have hunted with
our organization or that I've spoken with, just
encouraging you to push through the anxiety.
Don't let it rob you of your life, both
physically and mentally.
You know, don't let the demons win.
When we were all in training, we would
push through the demons and finish that ruck
march, or we would push through the struggles
overseas or push through anything to, to
survive and to get home.
And now that we are at home, continue to
push and push through the struggles because
that's what made us who we are as soldiers.
And don't lose the battle here at home,
continue to fight, and you're not alone.
Connects with us.
You know, we brought on a chaplain this year,
one of the pastors from our church came on this
year and he's available.
You can connect with him through our website
and if not, they can shoot me an email as
well, or connect with us through Facebook and we
can help you with that mental health piece or
the peer support piece.
You know, I've talked to every person, every
veteran that's connected with us and it's been
good because there's guys I know that I can't put
together because it'll trigger each other.
But that's another learning too, is that
not all veterans can be with each other.
Right.
Because of their overseas experiences.
So that's why I talked to everybody that
wants to hunt with the organization, just to
know where they're at.
And if you want to hunt with this too, we'll, we
send you, we developed a forum this year that has
some personal questions, but it just helps us
better prepare ourselves and you, to hunt with us.
Todd, thank you very much for being on The
Silvercore Podcast.
I'm really impressed with what you've done so far.
I'm really excited to see where Veteran
Hunters is going to be going in the future.
And I'm very happy to be able to assist you
with your endeavor in any way we can.
Thank you.
Thanks Travis, appreciate it.