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Learn how to build a better sign
and prt shop from a few crusty

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sign guys who've made more
mistakes than they care to admit.

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Conversations and advice on
pricing, sales, marketing,

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workflow, growth, and more.

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Your listening to The Better Sign Shop
podcast with your hosts, Peter Kunis,

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Michael O'Reilly, and Bryant Gillespie.

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Before we jump into the episode,
I'd like to give a shout out to

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our sponsor, GCI Digital Printing
Grand Format Printer to the trade

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GCI is not your average print shop.

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They pride themselves on
providing you a fast stress-free

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experience when outsourcing.

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There are no excuses.

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Mindset means no matter the job.

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They'll have it done every time.

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No other vendor will go to the links
that GCI does to ensure you are

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a satisfied customer to hear more
about their approach to business.

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Hop back into the archives to episode nine
where the guys and I interview owner TJ

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be act about top tier customer experience.

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If you're looking for a high quality trade
printer for banners, mesh, core Plast and

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more, TJ and his crew will have your back.

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For jobs, big or small, GCI does them
all, check them out@printgci.com.

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Alright guys, welcome back to the next
episode of the Better Sign Shop podcast.

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I've got my co-host, as always,
Peter Caris, the sign Shop Yoda.

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Pete, how are you sir?

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Pretty good.

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I'm pretty good.

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Uh, no longer sick.

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Getting ready to, uh, ring

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in the holiday season here.

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Finish up here with a
couple of decorations.

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I am working on my first Christmas
life-sized wooden soldier.

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Now, now hear me out

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on this.

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Hear me out on

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this because when you go
down this rabbit hole,

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it's a long journey.

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Okay?

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Uh, with my sign shop experience and using
all raw materials, I've been able to build

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a seven foot wooden soldier for my kids,
and they're absolutely in love with it.

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Now, I'm not finished.

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It's, I will reveal the finished product
on Christmas Eve, but this thing.

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Is huge.

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It's made out of all raw materials.

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There's nothing bought from, you know,
a supplier I'm using like those, uh,

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you know, like those banner tubes
and the vinyl rolls for its arms and

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legs and doing

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it very sparingly, but it is
coming out looking awesome.

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I'm I, I'm excited to see it now, dude.

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I, I can imagine your
kids are stoked for it.

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I'm using some of

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my, uh, experience working with
raspberry Pies and I, I got some

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of the Christmas music playing.

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I got, oh no, I got his arms
gonna move a little bit.

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His eyes are gonna have LED lights in it.

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It, I'm, I'm, I'm, like I said, you
go down a deep, like I said, you can

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go down a deep rabbit hole and make
like, uh, a very nice put together.

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Soldier to the point where it's
like, man, can I sell this thing?

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Like, can, can, can

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I make

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these?

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Don't do it.

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Don't

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do.

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And can I make a business outta this?

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And, and, and in a lot of regards, that's
a great segue into today's, uh, episode

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here is what, and what we're gonna be
talking about with our guests about like

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how you, how easy it is to take something

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and make another business model out of it.

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It was like a

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byproduct.

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Maybe this time of the year, I'm thinking
about selling seven foot wooden soldiers.

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Wooden

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soldiers.

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Yeah.

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Yeah.

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That's a good market.

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Maybe.

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Maybe that could be my new

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franchise business.

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Who knows?

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I tried that once with cornhole boards.

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Like we built a set using our flatbed
printer, like we had some half inch birch.

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You know, real smooth finish.

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Uh, we printed it direct on the
flatbed, so you could still see the

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wood grain coming through on the ink.

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Oh, that's cool.

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And we, uh, like we built these
cornhole boards and then we made the

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mistake of having a client come in.

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They were like, holy crap,
did you guys make these?

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We were like, yeah, we did.

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And they were like, okay, let I, I'm,
I'm smashing records in our business.

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Um, this was a, a coal mine at the time.

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Um, they were smashing
records in their business.

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They were like, Hey, I wanna order
35 sets of these for my guys.

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So being, you know, Hey,
like the, the sign guys.

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We were, can you guys make those for us?

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Yeah, of course we can.

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Great.

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So then the sign shop turned into wood
shop for like two weeks or a week.

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I can't remember how long it took us to
produce those, but that's a, a lesson

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that I learned of, you know, just because
it's fun on the surface doesn't mean it's

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necessarily profitable on the back end.

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Profitability, fun.

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It all goes into it, right?

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I mean, I think I have a similar story.

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It wasn't quite cornhole boards.

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My, my ex-business partner, he wanted
to make, uh, cutting boards, engraved,

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cutting boards, you know, and I'm like,
ah, pretty sure you can get that at

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like, in any store or online store.

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But it's amazing the raw materials
that we use here in the sign

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industry with the tools that we have.

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How much is it really capable
to generate revenue in

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other ways?

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It could be, it could

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be acrylic plaques, it could be
cornhole boards, it could be wooden

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soldiers, wooden soldiers, sneeze
guards from during the pandemic, right?

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Oh

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yeah.

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I mean, absolutely.

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How can I forget about that?

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How easy was it to like
laser cut acrylic to make a.

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Sneeze guards, uh, like face shields,

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what, whatever, whatever it was in bulk.

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I mean, you can really do a lot.

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And that's what we're gonna be
talking about here today, right?

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Yeah.

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Yeah.

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Without further ado,
let's bring on our guest.

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Alright guys, we are back with
today's guest, Paul Gardner of Sign

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Enterprise and like 35 other businesses
that, that I find fascinating.

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Paul, welcome to the podcast.

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Super happy

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to have you.

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Thanks for having me.

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Yeah.

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Yeah.

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So you and I have, uh, chased
each other to get you onto

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the podcast for a long time.

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Um, really enjoyed all the conversations
that we've had leading up to this.

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And like every time that we chat,
you've started something new.

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You got your hands in something new.

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You know, I was just telling Peter about
a few of those things before we jumped on.

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But for the audience, you know, give us.

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Your story, give us the story of Sign
Enterprise just for some context.

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Sure.

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So, uh, this is actually busy
season for me because all of my

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businesses are busy right now.

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And, uh, originally started
out in the sign business.

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I got into the sign business.

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It was, it was kind of a, uh,
a hobby more than anything.

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I was, uh, I, I used to race
go-karts when I was a kid.

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And then I graduated
into racing, uh, cars.

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And if you know anything about
the racing industry, you're

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constantly pairing up stuff.

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So you're constantly going into
the sign shop, the local sign shop.

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And, uh, so I got familiar with
printers and plotters and whatnot.

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So.

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You know, this is in my youth.

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This is as a teenager, and I, I, I, I
was using this local sign shop and, uh,

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I would go in there and, you know, just
try to make it as cheap as possible.

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So I, I started designing stuff myself,
which I probably made it hard on him.

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Um, it's kind of funny because the
guy that owned that sign shop, uh,

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did work for me up until a year ago.

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He, he retired, but he, uh, I bought
him, I bought his company out later.

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But anyways, uh, I, I, I probably
made it really hard on him, but

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I tried to design my own stuff.

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I'd come in there, you know, with the,
the idea and the concept, and I would

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tell him, Hey, don't worry about it.

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I'll weed the vinyl.

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Just give me, give every, you
know, I would try to make it as.

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Absolutely cheap as possible.

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And back then, you know, people
weren't printing, they were

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airbrushing to get the effect, you
know, that's what they were doing.

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Sure.

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And so it was a whole other, you
know, talk about labor intensive.

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It was major labor

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intensive.

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Let me ask you one question
before you continue.

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Did you ask him to sponsor you?

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Yeah, I did a million times.

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Yeah.

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I started hating race car drivers
after I became a side guy.

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It's funny because, uh, you, I had all
these friendships within the racing world

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and of course when I opened a sign shop,
I realized to my real friends' work,

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'cause most of 'em did not wanna pay.

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You know, I was like, man, I
could sponsor every one of y'all

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and it'd be broken in two months.

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So,

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yeah.

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No, that's a awesome origin story, man.

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I love

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it.

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That that's where it kind of started.

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And then, um, I was just looking
for a, you know, a, a summer job.

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Uh, ended up working at a,
uh, a transportation company.

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And that transportation company
was hiring a sign company from

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New York every year to come.

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They would to buy up a hundred
trailers every, every summer.

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And those a hundred trailers were
getting, you know, decals were being

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installed by this company outta New York.

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And so I looked at the owner, I said,
I know how to install those graphics.

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I had no idea what I was getting
into because I'm thinking, okay,

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I've done race cars and go-karts.

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I can do this.

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Not thinking about the fact that
these are 53 foot trailers, but

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the, and again, this is back before
printers, you know, were relevant

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and there wasn't before Air aggress.

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Yeah.

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Yeah.

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And, and we were using, you know,
hardcore 3M reflective vinyls.

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It was, it was intense.

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Um, but I got, I became
a really good installer.

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I mean, obviously I learned the
hardest way you could possibly

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learn how to install a vinyl, but,
um, I got really good at it and.

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00:10:04,575 --> 00:10:07,485
I got out when I, when I finished
college, my wife and I got married.

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00:10:07,665 --> 00:10:10,305
It was, it was just about a month
before we got married and I was

217
00:10:10,305 --> 00:10:12,345
working in corrections and I hated it.

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I just hated corrections and
yeah, I was working at six at

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night till six in the morning.

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I had 12 hour shift.

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And we live in Virginia.

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My wife works in DC at the time and she
was leaving work by 6:00 AM not getting

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home till 6:00 PM And so I was like,
oh, we're gonna, we're gonna end up in a

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divorce our first year 'cause we don't see
each other, but like three times a month.

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Yeah, right.

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So it's like, this is terrible.

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And so I said something to a buddy
of mine, I said, I'd love to start

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00:10:39,770 --> 00:10:40,965
a sign company if I had money.

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And yeah, that's just my thought because
I have no idea how to start a business.

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And I looked at him, I go, your parents
know all about starting businesses.

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00:10:50,100 --> 00:10:52,650
Maybe they can help us because
they ha owned a carpet business.

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00:10:53,010 --> 00:10:55,140
So all of a sudden he's my partner.

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Well, that lasted one week.

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He fell out.

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He doesn't wanna do it.

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He just wants to stay at home.

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And I ended up borrowing $5,000
and I bought a used plotter,

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00:11:06,270 --> 00:11:07,740
um, and some equipment.

239
00:11:08,400 --> 00:11:09,870
And that's how I got my start.

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00:11:10,110 --> 00:11:15,510
And so move forward, you know, 20 plus
years since then, I've acquired, um,

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00:11:15,540 --> 00:11:20,730
six sign companies, um, companies that
usually were struggling, having problems.

242
00:11:20,730 --> 00:11:22,950
I hired them for their people
and brought the owners in.

243
00:11:23,430 --> 00:11:25,740
And then I also acquired some
companies that were doing fairly well.

244
00:11:25,745 --> 00:11:28,620
Just the, the, the ownership
was at the point of retirement.

245
00:11:29,220 --> 00:11:31,890
And so that helped me,
you know, grow quickly.

246
00:11:32,130 --> 00:11:35,310
And then through the sign industry, just
like we were speaking about before, it's

247
00:11:35,310 --> 00:11:38,040
like if you learn the sign industry, you
can pretty much get into any industry.

248
00:11:38,580 --> 00:11:41,760
And since then I've started,
um, a few different companies.

249
00:11:41,790 --> 00:11:45,510
Um, I did end up purchasing a, a
design build landscape company.

250
00:11:45,870 --> 00:11:48,570
We do a lot of entrance monument signs.

251
00:11:48,630 --> 00:11:51,660
And so we were hiring the Masons
to come in and do all that work

252
00:11:51,660 --> 00:11:54,270
and we're doing the landscape and
we were doing the whole package.

253
00:11:54,270 --> 00:11:56,250
So we were hiring and
outsourcing that work.

254
00:11:56,490 --> 00:11:59,130
So what I decided to do is
just bring that internal And

255
00:11:59,130 --> 00:12:00,300
so I was able to buy a company.

256
00:12:00,305 --> 00:12:01,651
I'd been around for 25 years locally.

257
00:12:02,190 --> 00:12:02,250
I.

258
00:12:02,609 --> 00:12:05,790
The owner retired and, um,
I took that company over.

259
00:12:06,329 --> 00:12:09,719
And then I'm really big into the
lighting industry here recently,

260
00:12:09,719 --> 00:12:12,959
and the announcement hasn't been
made yet, but I just bought, um, the

261
00:12:12,959 --> 00:12:17,969
largest permanent light, uh, in, uh,
company in, in the United States.

262
00:12:18,209 --> 00:12:19,380
And they're out of Texas.

263
00:12:19,800 --> 00:12:24,000
And I definitely am gonna introduce
this to the sign industry, you know,

264
00:12:24,000 --> 00:12:27,810
and over the next year it's something
that the Christmas light industry, so

265
00:12:27,810 --> 00:12:30,209
I'm in the Christmas light industry,
which if you know anything about

266
00:12:30,209 --> 00:12:32,790
the Christmas light industry, it's
really blown up the last few years.

267
00:12:33,089 --> 00:12:36,510
Everyone's, you know, they even
have television shows about it now.

268
00:12:36,515 --> 00:12:36,930
So I.

269
00:12:37,635 --> 00:12:37,814
And

270
00:12:37,814 --> 00:12:38,954
No, no.

271
00:12:38,954 --> 00:12:41,685
Short part of your own as well, right?

272
00:12:41,685 --> 00:12:41,925
Like

273
00:12:42,165 --> 00:12:43,185
Yeah.

274
00:12:43,185 --> 00:12:43,185
Yeah.

275
00:12:43,485 --> 00:12:45,795
And it's, it's, it's, it's pretty fun.

276
00:12:45,795 --> 00:12:47,745
And it's, it's an intense business.

277
00:12:47,745 --> 00:12:51,405
It's a whole nother dynamic of, of
people that you're dealing with, but

278
00:12:51,405 --> 00:12:55,155
it's the same end result, you know, it's
like you get the same kind of baggage,

279
00:12:55,545 --> 00:12:57,314
you get the same kind of responses.

280
00:12:57,344 --> 00:12:59,805
It's, but it's a different,
it's a different vibe.

281
00:12:59,834 --> 00:13:01,334
It's obviously seasonal.

282
00:13:01,665 --> 00:13:05,564
Um, and then I also am in the
landscape, uh, lighting business.

283
00:13:05,745 --> 00:13:09,314
So all that led me to this permanent
light, uh, industry that I'm in now.

284
00:13:09,314 --> 00:13:13,005
And so now I'm, I'm, I'm, I
bought 50% of a company that has

285
00:13:13,005 --> 00:13:14,985
been around for, uh, 11 years.

286
00:13:15,645 --> 00:13:18,974
And, uh, the, the manufacturer's
doing really well.

287
00:13:19,035 --> 00:13:19,785
They have been.

288
00:13:20,595 --> 00:13:24,255
Primarily selling to the Christmas
light and landscape lighting industry.

289
00:13:24,795 --> 00:13:28,455
And so when I got my hands on, I'm
like, this is more sign business

290
00:13:28,460 --> 00:13:30,135
worthy because we have the equipment.

291
00:13:30,705 --> 00:13:34,125
And so I bought into the
company specifically to push

292
00:13:34,125 --> 00:13:35,535
it to the, the sign industry.

293
00:13:35,595 --> 00:13:39,525
And, you know, the sign business has
definitely opened up a whole, you

294
00:13:39,525 --> 00:13:42,105
know, avenue of opportunities for me.

295
00:13:42,285 --> 00:13:47,565
And I, I've, I've, I've expanded the
sign business along the way, and it's

296
00:13:47,565 --> 00:13:48,885
allowed me a lot of opportunities.

297
00:13:48,885 --> 00:13:51,735
I just, I, I embrace the opportunities
I've had, I've had a lot more

298
00:13:51,735 --> 00:13:53,625
opportunities than I even speak of.

299
00:13:53,630 --> 00:13:56,265
But, you know, in the business,
in the sign business, you

300
00:13:56,265 --> 00:13:57,315
work in business to business.

301
00:13:57,315 --> 00:13:58,665
So all you meet is business owners.

302
00:13:59,115 --> 00:14:02,265
And you constantly are, are, are
being consumed with ideas and

303
00:14:02,265 --> 00:14:05,954
so your mind just keeps running
and my, my mind runs nonstop, so

304
00:14:06,855 --> 00:14:06,974
Yeah.

305
00:14:07,814 --> 00:14:08,745
Clearly, clearly.

306
00:14:08,775 --> 00:14:09,074
No.

307
00:14:09,314 --> 00:14:09,555
Yeah.

308
00:14:09,560 --> 00:14:12,255
And, and I can't wait to get
into all of those things.

309
00:14:12,314 --> 00:14:15,765
Um, if we back up to talk about
like, signed enterprise, just just

310
00:14:15,765 --> 00:14:19,785
for a little bit, like, like roughly
what's the, the size of the shop,

311
00:14:19,785 --> 00:14:21,555
what are you guys doing sales wise?

312
00:14:21,795 --> 00:14:23,115
How many people do you have?

313
00:14:24,194 --> 00:14:27,735
So we have, I don't know the exact
count of people because we have

314
00:14:27,735 --> 00:14:31,094
three locations, but it's around
50, um, 50 people, employees.

315
00:14:31,125 --> 00:14:31,365
Okay.

316
00:14:31,454 --> 00:14:31,755
Yeah.

317
00:14:31,760 --> 00:14:32,084
Gotcha.

318
00:14:32,145 --> 00:14:38,564
Um, as far as, uh, sales, our central
location, which is our, our main location,

319
00:14:38,925 --> 00:14:40,665
we, we do between five and 10 million.

320
00:14:41,385 --> 00:14:41,505
Gotcha.

321
00:14:41,505 --> 00:14:41,535
Okay.

322
00:14:41,535 --> 00:14:44,745
So when all the sales come in,
we'll be between five and 10.

323
00:14:44,745 --> 00:14:49,094
I think this year we're gonna end up being
around 7 million for the one location, so.

324
00:14:49,635 --> 00:14:49,995
Gotcha.

325
00:14:50,550 --> 00:14:55,110
As far as our, you know, as far as the way
we work, so we have a central location,

326
00:14:55,110 --> 00:14:59,250
which is where I work out of, that's where
we manufacture about 90% of our signage.

327
00:14:59,730 --> 00:15:02,579
We have another location that
really is just an office.

328
00:15:02,939 --> 00:15:05,099
That location is just
south of us, about an hour.

329
00:15:05,105 --> 00:15:06,180
And then we have another location.

330
00:15:06,180 --> 00:15:09,150
We manufacture about 10
to 15% of our signage.

331
00:15:09,660 --> 00:15:14,550
And, uh, that location has, you know,
we have, we're fully outfitted to

332
00:15:14,555 --> 00:15:18,449
manufacture install, and we have offices
there and we have sales reps outta there.

333
00:15:18,900 --> 00:15:23,849
So we, we, we separate the businesses
for different reasons, but they

334
00:15:23,855 --> 00:15:27,209
contribute all as one company and
they're all under one umbrella.

335
00:15:27,825 --> 00:15:28,215
Gotcha.

336
00:15:28,380 --> 00:15:31,635
And, and like, what type of
projects are you guys doing?

337
00:15:31,635 --> 00:15:34,395
Like, you know, who are the
clients that you work with?

338
00:15:34,935 --> 00:15:38,505
Um, you know, there's, there's
obviously like various facets to

339
00:15:38,505 --> 00:15:42,135
the sign industry, so I just wanna
clarify for the listeners out

340
00:15:42,135 --> 00:15:42,435
there.

341
00:15:42,885 --> 00:15:46,665
So, when I first got into the industry,
honestly, my ideal client was the

342
00:15:46,665 --> 00:15:50,325
guy that wanted a cruising, a memory
sticker on the back of his car, or

343
00:15:51,225 --> 00:15:55,125
the race car driver who wanted a free
sponsorship, you know, just from decals.

344
00:15:55,485 --> 00:15:58,875
Uh, I have definitely
graduated past that point.

345
00:15:58,875 --> 00:16:02,565
And, you know, I, I
enjoy the decal industry.

346
00:16:02,565 --> 00:16:05,775
I enjoy vinyl, I enjoy
banners, I enjoy yard signs.

347
00:16:05,775 --> 00:16:07,935
There's a lot of money in that industry.

348
00:16:08,485 --> 00:16:12,925
But specifically in my area, what I
noticed is there was, um, a lack of

349
00:16:12,925 --> 00:16:18,535
good, knowledgeable professionals in
the, uh, lighting part of the industry,

350
00:16:18,865 --> 00:16:20,665
uh, the electrical more specifically.

351
00:16:20,965 --> 00:16:24,235
And at the time when I got into
it, LED wasn't even really a thing.

352
00:16:24,235 --> 00:16:28,045
It was kind of coming into the horizon,
but it was a thing that I started

353
00:16:28,050 --> 00:16:31,705
embracing early on and said, okay, I could
see this take off in the sign industry.

354
00:16:31,765 --> 00:16:37,105
And I can remember specifically all the,
the locals were using Neon and I can

355
00:16:37,110 --> 00:16:42,175
remember specifically talking to those
guys and they all, you know, rejected

356
00:16:42,175 --> 00:16:43,945
the idea that LED would take over.

357
00:16:44,545 --> 00:16:49,045
And so I was like, you know, if I'm right
on this, and based on the technology, you

358
00:16:49,045 --> 00:16:53,755
know, that I'm seeing advances in this
industry, most of the time the old school

359
00:16:53,755 --> 00:16:56,215
sign guy gets stuck thinking he's right.

360
00:16:56,665 --> 00:16:59,065
And I'm like, it's probably the same thing
in the lighting industry, even though at

361
00:16:59,070 --> 00:17:00,385
the time I know nothing about lighting.

362
00:17:00,895 --> 00:17:03,505
And so I'm like, I'm gonna learn
as much as I can about LEDs.

363
00:17:04,095 --> 00:17:05,535
So I went overseas.

364
00:17:05,535 --> 00:17:09,075
I went to China out of all places,
and I was like, I wanna learn

365
00:17:09,075 --> 00:17:11,085
about LEDs as quickly as possible.

366
00:17:11,115 --> 00:17:15,075
And so if you've ever been over
to China and you go to Guango or

367
00:17:15,075 --> 00:17:19,365
Shenzhen, you'll be consumed with
manufacturers in the lighting industry.

368
00:17:19,369 --> 00:17:23,115
I, I, I've visited in about 10
days, I've visited probably about 50

369
00:17:23,115 --> 00:17:26,295
locations of manufacturers, different
type of lighting manufacturers.

370
00:17:26,295 --> 00:17:26,355
Wow.

371
00:17:26,744 --> 00:17:30,915
And so that opened my world
up to the lighting industry.

372
00:17:30,975 --> 00:17:38,385
And so I got, I got used and familiar
with the terms early on that it, it, when

373
00:17:38,389 --> 00:17:43,004
people were manufacturing this locally
and, and, and in the sign shops, I was

374
00:17:43,004 --> 00:17:46,635
very familiar with what they, they were
producing and what was good quality, what

375
00:17:46,635 --> 00:17:50,055
wasn't, because that really gave me an
advantage in that part of the industry.

376
00:17:50,625 --> 00:17:54,855
And, um, I think from there, I don't
know exactly when this happened, but

377
00:17:54,855 --> 00:17:59,264
I will say that I went to ISA and I,
I would say this is probably not that

378
00:17:59,264 --> 00:18:00,795
long ago, maybe about 12 years ago.

379
00:18:00,885 --> 00:18:02,805
So it was after I started the electrical.

380
00:18:03,330 --> 00:18:06,629
But, um, I mean, I guess 12 years
is a long time, but, um, it's,

381
00:18:07,139 --> 00:18:09,870
it goes by so quick for me, it
just seems like it was yesterday.

382
00:18:10,050 --> 00:18:13,649
But I can remember we went out to dinner
one night and I always, I always laugh

383
00:18:13,649 --> 00:18:20,700
about this because we, we were, um, we,
we were sitting at a table outside on

384
00:18:20,700 --> 00:18:24,360
this balcony and all these people were,
and I was with a bunch of sign guys.

385
00:18:24,360 --> 00:18:28,050
Like, I just got invited to this impromptu
dinner with a bunch of sign guys and

386
00:18:28,050 --> 00:18:29,220
I only knew like two or three of them.

387
00:18:29,909 --> 00:18:32,940
And, uh, we're sitting on this balcony
and all these people are flooding

388
00:18:32,940 --> 00:18:34,620
in and I'm like, what's going on?

389
00:18:34,625 --> 00:18:36,690
And they were like, oh, there's
gonna be a Snoop Dogg concert.

390
00:18:36,990 --> 00:18:39,929
So I actually was, I called my wife,
I'm like, I'm in a Snoop Dogg concert.

391
00:18:39,929 --> 00:18:44,220
I'm literally, I'm like, that's not my,
you know, that's not my, my, my style.

392
00:18:44,225 --> 00:18:47,129
So my wife was, it was kind of funny
'cause we were there for like two and

393
00:18:47,129 --> 00:18:50,190
a half hours at that table, but we
literally had a front row seat, Snoop

394
00:18:50,190 --> 00:18:53,040
Doggs, like running underneath and
us, that's where the, the stage was.

395
00:18:53,495 --> 00:18:57,600
Sure enough, I, I got the, the,
the, the restaurant said, y'all

396
00:18:57,600 --> 00:18:58,950
are so lucky y'all get this table.

397
00:18:58,950 --> 00:19:00,000
Everybody wants this table.

398
00:19:00,450 --> 00:19:02,879
And, but our party was so big,
they had to give us the table.

399
00:19:03,330 --> 00:19:07,410
But during those conversations,
listening to Snoop Dogg, it was hard.

400
00:19:07,410 --> 00:19:09,150
But we, listen, I, I listened intently.

401
00:19:09,360 --> 00:19:12,390
There was this guy, and I don't know
him to this day, I can't remember his

402
00:19:12,390 --> 00:19:18,060
name, but I remember we were exchanging
and we were just sharing pricing, like

403
00:19:18,060 --> 00:19:19,740
where, what's your minimum pricing?

404
00:19:19,770 --> 00:19:24,090
And at the time, I don't know specifics
about where I was and where he was, but

405
00:19:24,090 --> 00:19:25,770
I remember we were like night and day.

406
00:19:26,190 --> 00:19:28,050
And he specifically was like, double what?

407
00:19:28,050 --> 00:19:31,800
I was on his hourly rates,
on his man rates, everything.

408
00:19:31,800 --> 00:19:33,750
And I was just like,
okay, well why is that?

409
00:19:33,750 --> 00:19:38,580
Because this guy lives in a
very, you know, um, rural area.

410
00:19:38,640 --> 00:19:42,390
He doesn't live in a area where it's,
um, overly populated with businesses.

411
00:19:42,390 --> 00:19:45,930
He said he has to drive for the average,
you know, good business an hour.

412
00:19:45,990 --> 00:19:49,680
And here I am overwhelmed
by business opportunities.

413
00:19:50,010 --> 00:19:51,810
I'm thinking to myself that
just doesn't make sense, right?

414
00:19:52,200 --> 00:19:55,230
And so when I told him that, he looked
at me specifically and he said, Paul,

415
00:19:55,230 --> 00:19:56,640
you seem like a pretty smart guy.

416
00:19:56,640 --> 00:19:59,400
He goes, but man, your
pricing is way too low.

417
00:19:59,760 --> 00:20:01,710
He goes, I'm telling you right
now, you could get double.

418
00:20:02,010 --> 00:20:04,590
For what you're producing,
the knowledge you have.

419
00:20:05,040 --> 00:20:08,700
And I thought to myself, if this guy's
right, then I'm really missing out.

420
00:20:08,700 --> 00:20:10,500
This is where the struggle is happening.

421
00:20:11,100 --> 00:20:16,560
So with without hesitation, I kid you not,
I mean this is, that was the lecture I got

422
00:20:17,130 --> 00:20:18,960
and that was like a weekend or whatever.

423
00:20:18,960 --> 00:20:21,690
I come back Monday morning and
I doubled my prices overnight.

424
00:20:21,690 --> 00:20:22,680
I doubled my prices.

425
00:20:22,705 --> 00:20:22,925
Wow.

426
00:20:23,910 --> 00:20:25,110
Across the board.

427
00:20:25,740 --> 00:20:27,840
And no exaggeration.

428
00:20:27,870 --> 00:20:31,060
People have asked me this a few times
'cause I'm also, I'm a, I'm a, I'm a

429
00:20:31,060 --> 00:20:35,610
business coach and I coach businesses
and I tell them, it's all in our

430
00:20:35,610 --> 00:20:39,750
heads how often we believe that,
you know, if, if we're delivering.

431
00:20:39,810 --> 00:20:40,830
Now, this is what I always tell people.

432
00:20:40,830 --> 00:20:43,470
If you're delivering the exceptional
service and you're giving people

433
00:20:43,470 --> 00:20:45,210
the type of experience they expect.

434
00:20:45,824 --> 00:20:49,365
You should be able to raise your prices
and there shouldn't be any pushback

435
00:20:49,485 --> 00:20:52,514
because if you are attracting those
type of clients that demand that type of

436
00:20:52,514 --> 00:20:54,014
service, they're willing to pay for it.

437
00:20:54,495 --> 00:20:58,245
And so at the time I was really, even
though I was young and I was learning

438
00:20:58,245 --> 00:21:01,935
still, I was still delivering a much
better product than the competition.

439
00:21:01,935 --> 00:21:05,534
I knew that, like up here, I, I could
tell, I was like, I'm confident what

440
00:21:05,534 --> 00:21:07,030
I'm delivering, but I wasn't confident.

441
00:21:07,030 --> 00:21:08,175
Well, you took pride in it, right?

442
00:21:08,179 --> 00:21:08,270
Yeah.

443
00:21:08,274 --> 00:21:08,715
Yeah.

444
00:21:08,715 --> 00:21:12,314
I mean, like, we talked to so many
owners that do, like, they take deep

445
00:21:12,320 --> 00:21:14,475
pride in what they do every single day.

446
00:21:14,475 --> 00:21:17,235
And it shows that it is just Yeah.

447
00:21:17,235 --> 00:21:17,655
Up here

448
00:21:17,655 --> 00:21:17,985
though.

449
00:21:18,284 --> 00:21:18,435
Yeah.

450
00:21:18,439 --> 00:21:21,225
It's like, I mean, I, I want it
to be the best, Brian, just to

451
00:21:21,225 --> 00:21:25,125
be able to deliver to my clients
because I know what I would expect.

452
00:21:25,129 --> 00:21:25,425
Right?

453
00:21:25,425 --> 00:21:29,625
And so I just examined myself daily
and I was like, what can I do better?

454
00:21:29,625 --> 00:21:32,504
What can Paul Gardner
do better to deliver?

455
00:21:32,865 --> 00:21:36,225
And so I tried to get all the
education I could, as much as

456
00:21:36,225 --> 00:21:37,485
I could, as often as I could.

457
00:21:37,965 --> 00:21:42,135
And, uh, when this guy told me
this, I, I, I, I, I went in and I,

458
00:21:42,189 --> 00:21:43,514
I looked at the girl in the office.

459
00:21:43,514 --> 00:21:44,955
I was like, all right, we
need to double our prices.

460
00:21:45,419 --> 00:21:46,245
And she's like, what?

461
00:21:46,635 --> 00:21:47,865
I'm like across the board.

462
00:21:48,074 --> 00:21:50,115
And I said, we're gonna
have a minimum rate.

463
00:21:50,324 --> 00:21:54,735
I do remember this part, our minimum rate,
now it's now it's more, but our minimum

464
00:21:54,735 --> 00:21:56,835
rate at the time was gonna be 3 25.

465
00:21:56,835 --> 00:21:59,205
So no matter what, we were gonna be $325.

466
00:21:59,985 --> 00:22:02,294
And I don't know what we were at the time.

467
00:22:02,294 --> 00:22:06,585
I wanna say we were only like $90,
like $90, you know, something simple.

468
00:22:07,034 --> 00:22:09,945
And I said, we gotta have a two
hour minimum on every job we do.

469
00:22:10,784 --> 00:22:13,544
And so when we did that,
we implemented that change.

470
00:22:13,544 --> 00:22:17,175
Immediately I'm thinking to myself, okay,
I'm gonna sacrifice some business here.

471
00:22:17,179 --> 00:22:18,254
I'm gonna lose some business.

472
00:22:18,495 --> 00:22:21,105
But I can honestly look at both
of you and say, I don't know

473
00:22:21,105 --> 00:22:22,125
of any business we ever lost.

474
00:22:22,125 --> 00:22:22,695
As a matter of fact.

475
00:22:23,010 --> 00:22:27,780
We started the, the, we started
just pounding the pavement and

476
00:22:27,780 --> 00:22:28,890
getting more and more work.

477
00:22:29,010 --> 00:22:30,360
And we were so busy.

478
00:22:30,390 --> 00:22:34,410
I don't think if we did lose business,
I noticed it because the compounding

479
00:22:34,410 --> 00:22:38,730
effect it was having, raising our prices,
I was able to bring in more revenue.

480
00:22:38,730 --> 00:22:39,960
I was bringing in better people.

481
00:22:39,960 --> 00:22:41,340
I was bringing in better equipment.

482
00:22:41,345 --> 00:22:43,140
I was educating myself quicker.

483
00:22:43,470 --> 00:22:47,160
There was so many things that happened
along that journey of that price

484
00:22:47,160 --> 00:22:50,190
transition that I, I'd never looked back.

485
00:22:50,190 --> 00:22:51,870
I never even thought
that was a bad decision.

486
00:22:51,930 --> 00:22:55,620
And so I've constantly
increased my prices since.

487
00:22:55,740 --> 00:23:00,240
And our, our minimum prices is even higher
now, and no one, you know, bats an eye.

488
00:23:00,240 --> 00:23:03,450
And I know the type of service that
we're delivering, the quality of service

489
00:23:03,450 --> 00:23:05,070
we're delivering is better than it was.

490
00:23:05,970 --> 00:23:08,460
Therefore I have every right
to demand that type of price.

491
00:23:08,460 --> 00:23:11,820
And plus there was covid, so we
jacked the prices up a lot then.

492
00:23:12,960 --> 00:23:13,170
Yeah.

493
00:23:13,170 --> 00:23:14,250
As, as you had to.

494
00:23:14,670 --> 00:23:17,820
No, I mean, that's a great point because
it, like, obviously you do have to

495
00:23:17,820 --> 00:23:21,180
have that, that level of service that
you're providing in order to do that.

496
00:23:21,185 --> 00:23:25,890
But like so many times we sell ourselves
short of like, just like, oh, no

497
00:23:25,890 --> 00:23:27,480
way we could raise prices on this.

498
00:23:27,480 --> 00:23:30,090
Or like, oh, we can't get
it in, in this market.

499
00:23:30,090 --> 00:23:34,680
And for a lot of owners, like
that's not the case, you know?

500
00:23:35,005 --> 00:23:35,425
Mm-Hmm.

501
00:23:35,850 --> 00:23:36,810
It is just not the case.

502
00:23:37,050 --> 00:23:41,610
Like, would you, like, it sounds
like that was a, like a pivotal

503
00:23:41,610 --> 00:23:44,430
moment in like your signed career.

504
00:23:44,490 --> 00:23:48,930
Like would, would you say that's like the
turning point for everything else to, to

505
00:23:48,930 --> 00:23:49,260
come?

506
00:23:49,710 --> 00:23:50,010
Yeah.

507
00:23:50,520 --> 00:23:51,300
Yeah, definitely.

508
00:23:51,720 --> 00:23:57,270
So, I, you know, I, I plan on, so
all my companies right now are under

509
00:23:57,390 --> 00:23:59,040
an umbrella of Sign Enterprise.

510
00:23:59,250 --> 00:24:03,270
And so we, we've constantly
separated those companies.

511
00:24:03,645 --> 00:24:07,215
Over the years, and this, this
is the last year that Elf Pros

512
00:24:07,215 --> 00:24:08,415
will fall under the umbrella.

513
00:24:08,745 --> 00:24:12,435
And so it'll go on its
own here, uh, next 2024.

514
00:24:13,125 --> 00:24:17,565
So in each case where I've
started a new business, now I,

515
00:24:17,565 --> 00:24:19,245
I, I look at the average market.

516
00:24:19,665 --> 00:24:22,365
I look at the average market,
and I'm like, what is, what is,

517
00:24:22,395 --> 00:24:24,615
what is the industry asking for?

518
00:24:24,915 --> 00:24:26,775
What is the industry willing to pay?

519
00:24:27,345 --> 00:24:30,495
And I take all that information
and I'm like, okay, everything

520
00:24:30,495 --> 00:24:31,485
based on the averages.

521
00:24:31,485 --> 00:24:32,775
What can I do to make it better?

522
00:24:33,105 --> 00:24:35,625
And then based on that,
how can I charge more?

523
00:24:36,135 --> 00:24:38,955
And so when I started, just to
give you an example, I started my

524
00:24:38,955 --> 00:24:40,635
Christmas site business four years ago.

525
00:24:41,145 --> 00:24:46,245
We started out the highest priced
Christmas light installer in the area.

526
00:24:46,740 --> 00:24:50,190
And, and we've increased our
prices in the last four years.

527
00:24:50,550 --> 00:24:52,170
To this day, we're the highest price.

528
00:24:52,170 --> 00:24:56,430
We actually have guys that are
pricing the same type of work that we

529
00:24:56,435 --> 00:24:59,040
are doing for a third of the price.

530
00:24:59,250 --> 00:25:03,420
And I know this because it's
very, that industry is, it's not

531
00:25:03,425 --> 00:25:04,980
as broad as the sign industry.

532
00:25:05,010 --> 00:25:06,960
There's only a certain type
of applications, right?

533
00:25:07,260 --> 00:25:11,520
And so the pricing margins are
very transparent and people

534
00:25:11,520 --> 00:25:12,480
put that stuff out there.

535
00:25:12,990 --> 00:25:15,300
And so a lot of people tell us,
you know, we're the most expensive.

536
00:25:15,300 --> 00:25:17,220
And we understand that's
not our type of clientele.

537
00:25:17,430 --> 00:25:21,420
But here's the thing, the type of
service we're delivering and the

538
00:25:21,425 --> 00:25:25,649
experience that people get with that
service is, is not even comparable.

539
00:25:25,770 --> 00:25:26,610
And we know that.

540
00:25:26,610 --> 00:25:29,490
We know the type of quality,
the product that we're using.

541
00:25:29,639 --> 00:25:33,750
We know that a lot of the manufacturers
of products that they're using are

542
00:25:33,750 --> 00:25:37,710
just outsourced overseas, which
most of the LED products are.

543
00:25:37,710 --> 00:25:41,010
It's just, you gotta know the different
things about diodes, chips, you gotta

544
00:25:41,010 --> 00:25:43,649
know different things about casings,
the type of wiring you're using.

545
00:25:43,770 --> 00:25:44,940
And I know all that stuff.

546
00:25:44,940 --> 00:25:45,300
So.

547
00:25:45,615 --> 00:25:49,305
When I am delivering a product to my
client, I'm guarantee 'em that this

548
00:25:49,305 --> 00:25:52,905
is the most premium product you can
get your hands on right now when a lot

549
00:25:52,905 --> 00:25:55,875
of the guys, they don't know enough
information to know the difference

550
00:25:55,880 --> 00:25:57,465
between that bulb and the next bulb.

551
00:25:58,155 --> 00:25:58,785
And so, yeah.

552
00:25:59,235 --> 00:26:03,225
Then on top of that, the type of service
we're giving them is exceptional.

553
00:26:03,405 --> 00:26:07,065
You know, it's, it's, it's the Starbucks
of the Christmas light industry.

554
00:26:07,065 --> 00:26:11,025
You know, we're gonna go out of our
way to perform and give them this,

555
00:26:11,055 --> 00:26:16,575
you know, this ambiance of ideas and
gets the Christmas spirit growing

556
00:26:16,905 --> 00:26:18,825
and, and, and we do so many things.

557
00:26:18,830 --> 00:26:20,685
Like one of the things
we do is every year I.

558
00:26:20,939 --> 00:26:25,229
We go back to the, um, to,
to the customer's home a

559
00:26:25,229 --> 00:26:26,189
couple days before Christmas.

560
00:26:26,189 --> 00:26:27,510
So we're actually doing this in a week.

561
00:26:27,929 --> 00:26:31,469
And, uh, we'll deliver, uh, I don't
know if you've heard of nothing, bunt

562
00:26:31,469 --> 00:26:34,110
cakes, but, uh, we do all their signage.

563
00:26:34,110 --> 00:26:38,310
So I made a deal with the owners
and we, we do a little barter there.

564
00:26:38,314 --> 00:26:41,310
And so we deliver bunt cakes
to all of our customers.

565
00:26:41,310 --> 00:26:46,500
So we deliver hundreds of bunk cakes,
and of course we have a mascot with the

566
00:26:46,500 --> 00:26:48,479
Elf Pros theme, and his name is Winky.

567
00:26:49,080 --> 00:26:53,040
And so we show up in the mascot
with the bunt cake and kids love it.

568
00:26:53,550 --> 00:26:56,490
And it's just that kind of exceptional
experience that people expect

569
00:26:56,495 --> 00:26:59,610
nowadays because we live in a
world of experiences, whether it's

570
00:26:59,610 --> 00:27:01,169
online, whether it's in person.

571
00:27:01,949 --> 00:27:04,375
And I read this book years
ago, it's called the, uh,

572
00:27:04,740 --> 00:27:06,570
um, the Experience Economy.

573
00:27:07,530 --> 00:27:09,570
Um, and, and Joseph Pine wrote that book.

574
00:27:09,570 --> 00:27:12,209
And the, the idea is to kind of.

575
00:27:12,855 --> 00:27:15,615
Turn your business into the
same concept that Di Walt

576
00:27:15,615 --> 00:27:17,625
Disney turned Disney World into.

577
00:27:17,625 --> 00:27:17,626
Yep.

578
00:27:17,670 --> 00:27:20,235
Yeah, it's like to make
everything an experience.

579
00:27:20,265 --> 00:27:23,565
And so when you go to Walt, you
know, when you go to Disney, anybody

580
00:27:23,565 --> 00:27:26,355
that's been the magic Kingdom,
it's quite the experience, right?

581
00:27:26,445 --> 00:27:28,845
And it doesn't matter if you're
four years old or if you're 40

582
00:27:28,850 --> 00:27:32,385
years old, the experience is grand
and you're gonna enjoy yourself.

583
00:27:32,475 --> 00:27:35,655
And so we try to do the same
thing within every industry I own.

584
00:27:35,685 --> 00:27:35,895
Yeah.

585
00:27:36,260 --> 00:27:38,895
And, and when you do that, like
the price doesn't matter, right?

586
00:27:38,895 --> 00:27:42,945
Because No, it doesn't, you know,
like I, I've taken my kids to Disney

587
00:27:42,945 --> 00:27:47,295
several times, and like my wife and
I have like, you know, obviously like

588
00:27:47,295 --> 00:27:50,805
it's an expensive proposition, like,
you know, you know, going well into it.

589
00:27:50,805 --> 00:27:54,165
Like, like, hey, this is gonna take a nice
chunk of change to do what we wanna do.

590
00:27:54,165 --> 00:27:56,805
But like, when you're in the
moment, like you don't blink

591
00:27:56,810 --> 00:27:57,855
an eye about it, like Yeah.

592
00:27:57,855 --> 00:28:03,225
You know, to, to see like the look on your
kids' faces or, or just have that, that

593
00:28:03,225 --> 00:28:07,725
experience as you mentioned, like, like
the money doesn't matter at that point.

594
00:28:08,415 --> 00:28:10,395
And like, how do you guys.

595
00:28:11,070 --> 00:28:13,710
How do you work that into
like the sign side, right?

596
00:28:13,710 --> 00:28:16,650
Because, so the sign side on the
Christmas light, you're, you're selling

597
00:28:16,650 --> 00:28:21,000
to consumers, you know, they, they
want to, you know, impress their own

598
00:28:21,000 --> 00:28:24,630
families, impress the neighbors, you
know, spread Christmas cheer, all of that.

599
00:28:24,635 --> 00:28:28,830
But like, how do you work some of
that experience magic into the sign

600
00:28:28,830 --> 00:28:29,310
industry?

601
00:28:29,910 --> 00:28:32,040
So that is the challenge, right?

602
00:28:32,040 --> 00:28:32,970
Because it's not the same.

603
00:28:32,970 --> 00:28:35,580
You're dealing with, you're
dealing business to business.

604
00:28:35,580 --> 00:28:38,130
You're not dealing with the, the,
you know, the homeowner who you

605
00:28:38,135 --> 00:28:42,840
get to see, you know, the joy on
her face when you push the button.

606
00:28:42,870 --> 00:28:45,780
It's like, you know, we always,
always think of ourselves as

607
00:28:45,785 --> 00:28:47,490
like, um, what, what is it?

608
00:28:47,495 --> 00:28:49,350
Chevy Chase's Christmas,
whatever that one was.

609
00:28:50,610 --> 00:28:51,240
We plug it.

610
00:28:51,240 --> 00:28:52,350
It's like we always do that.

611
00:28:52,350 --> 00:28:54,180
We make the homeowner
come out, come watch this.

612
00:28:54,570 --> 00:28:56,280
I'm always waiting for that
one where it doesn't work.

613
00:28:56,735 --> 00:28:57,025
Yeah.

614
00:28:57,510 --> 00:29:00,900
But you know, you get to see the
response because when we deliver the

615
00:29:00,900 --> 00:29:04,830
cakes, when we send the emails out,
when we do the things on social media,

616
00:29:04,830 --> 00:29:09,270
I mean, on our, on our Elf Pros,
um, uh, Facebook page, we're getting

617
00:29:09,275 --> 00:29:11,250
50,000 engagements a week right now.

618
00:29:11,580 --> 00:29:14,160
And so during Christmas,
that's phenomenal.

619
00:29:14,160 --> 00:29:16,740
I mean, that's, that's a lot of,
and that's local, by the way.

620
00:29:16,980 --> 00:29:18,540
That's a local engagement.

621
00:29:18,900 --> 00:29:22,290
So that's, that's a phenomenal
amount of engagement in one week.

622
00:29:22,500 --> 00:29:25,530
Whereas in the sign business,
I'm lucky if I get 50,000

623
00:29:25,530 --> 00:29:27,115
engagements in a year, so Yeah.

624
00:29:27,285 --> 00:29:27,635
Right.

625
00:29:28,465 --> 00:29:31,350
It's like, okay, how do you, how
do you, yeah, you made a sign

626
00:29:31,355 --> 00:29:31,560
who,

627
00:29:33,360 --> 00:29:33,540
yeah.

628
00:29:33,540 --> 00:29:35,400
So how do you create
that type of experience?

629
00:29:35,400 --> 00:29:37,860
So it's definitely I'll, I'll be honest
with you, it's definitely something

630
00:29:37,860 --> 00:29:42,780
I haven't injected into the mold of
the sign industry as much, but it's

631
00:29:42,780 --> 00:29:46,830
something I'm definitely thinking
about, how can I create more of this

632
00:29:46,835 --> 00:29:49,020
experience factor in the sign industry?

633
00:29:49,170 --> 00:29:51,210
One of the ways I have done that is.

634
00:29:51,510 --> 00:29:55,125
And I'll tell you, we do work for some
of the biggest companies in the United

635
00:29:55,125 --> 00:29:58,200
States, and we actually do work for
some of the biggest sign companies.

636
00:29:58,260 --> 00:30:03,270
And the one company who's, you know, one
of the more recognized companies in the

637
00:30:03,270 --> 00:30:08,250
industry, they, they, they sent us a lot
of work and they, they recently told us,

638
00:30:08,250 --> 00:30:13,650
uh, one, one of the PMs called me and
I guess he needed, he needed a favor.

639
00:30:14,040 --> 00:30:15,540
And so he got my number.

640
00:30:15,540 --> 00:30:16,320
He called me.

641
00:30:16,325 --> 00:30:19,470
He said, look, I really need a favor
from you on, and your PM said y'all can't

642
00:30:19,470 --> 00:30:21,450
do it, so I'm hoping you'll help me.

643
00:30:21,450 --> 00:30:22,380
Someone told me to call you.

644
00:30:22,830 --> 00:30:24,540
So I'm talking to him and he goes, wow.

645
00:30:24,545 --> 00:30:27,300
He goes, I'm gonna be honest with you,
I've been with this company for 32 years.

646
00:30:27,300 --> 00:30:29,190
And he goes, you have the highest rating.

647
00:30:29,400 --> 00:30:32,640
And I've only seen this high
rating one time across the

648
00:30:32,640 --> 00:30:33,900
board with other sign companies.

649
00:30:34,200 --> 00:30:36,510
He said, we have a rating system
and you, your company has the

650
00:30:36,510 --> 00:30:37,770
highest rating in our system.

651
00:30:38,159 --> 00:30:39,120
You can possibly get.

652
00:30:39,120 --> 00:30:41,190
He says, I've only seen it
one other time in 32 years.

653
00:30:41,430 --> 00:30:45,300
So in my opinion, I'm like, okay, we're
creating a great experience for people

654
00:30:45,480 --> 00:30:48,600
by just communicating well, because
I feel like that's what we do really

655
00:30:48,600 --> 00:30:51,450
well, is our communication factors.

656
00:30:51,480 --> 00:30:51,570
Mm-hmm.

657
00:30:51,840 --> 00:30:53,790
Are, are, are prevalent in every meeting.

658
00:30:53,970 --> 00:30:55,110
Like, how did we do here?

659
00:30:55,115 --> 00:30:58,200
What did we not do well, you
know, how can we fix, fix this?

660
00:30:58,200 --> 00:30:59,730
And we put systems in place.

661
00:30:59,790 --> 00:31:05,220
So my, my opinion is everything,
every reaction should have a response.

662
00:31:05,520 --> 00:31:09,570
So everything that happens now
needs, you know, we need to, we need

663
00:31:09,570 --> 00:31:11,879
to, whether it's a negative thing
that happened or a positive thing,

664
00:31:12,030 --> 00:31:13,350
now we need to respond to that.

665
00:31:13,379 --> 00:31:14,550
What's the response to that?

666
00:31:14,700 --> 00:31:15,480
And so.

667
00:31:16,335 --> 00:31:21,225
When we have a, an exceptional install,
everything goes exactly as planned.

668
00:31:21,375 --> 00:31:24,495
You know, we let the customer know,
Hey, this was an exceptional install.

669
00:31:24,495 --> 00:31:26,385
This is a, everything
happened just as planned.

670
00:31:26,655 --> 00:31:28,965
If things don't happen as planned,
you know, we let 'em know.

671
00:31:29,024 --> 00:31:32,085
We let 'em know that, hey, there
were some, you know, barriers.

672
00:31:32,090 --> 00:31:35,145
There were some things, obstacles,
but we got through it and, and, and,

673
00:31:35,145 --> 00:31:37,635
and we finished a job and we got it
complete and everything looks great.

674
00:31:37,814 --> 00:31:40,304
And so we, we communicate often.

675
00:31:40,335 --> 00:31:44,774
We, we we're a big com uh, proponent
of using things like company cam.

676
00:31:44,804 --> 00:31:48,675
I don't know if a lot of your clientele
is using that, but we use company Cam.

677
00:31:49,754 --> 00:31:54,044
You know, I, I think I, I, I, I, in my
sleep, I'm getting pictures from people,

678
00:31:54,044 --> 00:31:59,865
like literally my, but I, I company Cam
is going off the rails with us right now.

679
00:31:59,870 --> 00:32:03,675
It's, it's like we use it in
all of our businesses, but that

680
00:32:03,679 --> 00:32:05,595
information is information that.

681
00:32:06,104 --> 00:32:10,844
The PM can instantly get updates on
the job, send it to the customer,

682
00:32:11,084 --> 00:32:14,415
the customer's being told in real
time how things are going on a job.

683
00:32:14,415 --> 00:32:17,594
I mean, the customer really that we're
speaking to might be in Texas, but

684
00:32:17,600 --> 00:32:19,814
their location might be here local.

685
00:32:20,084 --> 00:32:23,445
And so for them, that kind
of feedback and that type of

686
00:32:23,445 --> 00:32:27,135
communication is, is unparalleled
to most people in the industry.

687
00:32:27,135 --> 00:32:30,074
I'm not saying there's not other people
using company cam, it's just the way we

688
00:32:30,080 --> 00:32:32,925
use it, I think is, is is not the norm.

689
00:32:33,284 --> 00:32:36,975
And so that type of instant
communication, constant communication

690
00:32:36,975 --> 00:32:40,064
has been the exceptional experience
that we've been delivering thus

691
00:32:40,064 --> 00:32:41,084
far in the design industry.

692
00:32:41,820 --> 00:32:46,230
I love to hear you say that because
that, like, communication is like one

693
00:32:46,230 --> 00:32:50,790
of the biggest fail points or break
points or where just things fall apart

694
00:32:51,120 --> 00:32:55,230
that I've seen for a lot of shops
that, that we've had on the podcast.

695
00:32:55,530 --> 00:32:58,919
You know, we had, like Pete and I
have done a couple of, uh, interviews

696
00:32:58,919 --> 00:33:02,399
with, with, uh, shop owners where
things are just falling apart

697
00:33:02,399 --> 00:33:03,750
because of communication issues.

698
00:33:03,750 --> 00:33:07,470
Like, hey, we're, we're not passing the
torch correctly to the next department

699
00:33:07,470 --> 00:33:09,419
or communicating back to the client.

700
00:33:09,870 --> 00:33:13,590
Um, but client communication being like
the most prevalent one of like, Hey,

701
00:33:14,939 --> 00:33:16,439
here's all the details of the project.

702
00:33:16,500 --> 00:33:19,500
We're just gonna squirrel ourselves away
for a couple days, come back with an

703
00:33:19,500 --> 00:33:21,689
estimate like, Hey, do you want it or not?

704
00:33:21,689 --> 00:33:25,679
And then like, oh, hey, here's
the mockups that we created.

705
00:33:26,304 --> 00:33:27,030
Boom, boom, boom.

706
00:33:27,030 --> 00:33:30,720
Then you don't hear from somebody else,
like, you know, what, what kind of systems

707
00:33:30,720 --> 00:33:32,429
do you have guys have in place for that?

708
00:33:32,429 --> 00:33:35,460
Like what, like how did
you get to that point?

709
00:33:35,639 --> 00:33:37,350
You know, like, so obviously.

710
00:33:38,130 --> 00:33:41,340
You know, uh, I would say aside
from company Cam, I guess, yeah.

711
00:33:41,340 --> 00:33:43,260
Yeah, I mean, there's
a lot of things we use.

712
00:33:43,290 --> 00:33:46,560
Um, I'll be honest with you, I'm not
even familiar with some of the apps

713
00:33:46,560 --> 00:33:49,920
that we're using now because there's
some that we're using that have been

714
00:33:49,925 --> 00:33:53,610
implemented by the leadership here that
I'm not, I don't even know how to use 'em.

715
00:33:54,000 --> 00:33:58,110
We're using a product now called chirp,
and I'm not even familiar with how

716
00:33:58,110 --> 00:34:01,530
it works, but it's basically, it's a
communication with the customer through

717
00:34:01,530 --> 00:34:06,480
text, you know, and it constantly is
giving them, you know, updates and

718
00:34:06,480 --> 00:34:09,720
it's o obviously at the end of the job,
it's letting them know the job's done.

719
00:34:09,725 --> 00:34:11,460
It's communicating to
them how well did we do.

720
00:34:11,465 --> 00:34:12,690
So we're getting that feedback.

721
00:34:13,889 --> 00:34:19,409
Generally speaking, uh, people are
more prone to, um, communicate more.

722
00:34:19,469 --> 00:34:19,770
Well.

723
00:34:19,770 --> 00:34:22,770
I say generally speaking, I'm
not the best when it comes to

724
00:34:22,770 --> 00:34:24,330
texting according to my wife.

725
00:34:24,465 --> 00:34:28,409
So that's, so, so I'm more
of a phone call type of guy.

726
00:34:28,409 --> 00:34:33,029
But I think the general population is
used to communicate and quickly and,

727
00:34:33,029 --> 00:34:35,520
and responding promptly with a text.

728
00:34:35,730 --> 00:34:39,300
So that's where chirp comes in is, and
you know, when you think about the design

729
00:34:39,304 --> 00:34:42,900
industry, at least I haven't thought
about it until we started using this

730
00:34:42,900 --> 00:34:49,590
particular, um, software, is that we
normally were communicating through email.

731
00:34:49,650 --> 00:34:49,949
Email.

732
00:34:50,009 --> 00:34:53,130
And to me that's a slow communication
anyways because, you know,

733
00:34:53,130 --> 00:34:54,360
the person's gone for the day.

734
00:34:54,659 --> 00:34:57,779
I've always, so when I was the
technician, when I was in the

735
00:34:57,779 --> 00:35:01,740
field, my system was pick up the
phone after I'm done with the job.

736
00:35:01,740 --> 00:35:03,390
Hey, your, your sign job's done.

737
00:35:03,509 --> 00:35:06,630
You know, take one picture,
send it to 'em, you're good.

738
00:35:07,140 --> 00:35:09,420
Now there's this whole
other system, right?

739
00:35:09,420 --> 00:35:11,160
There's a hundred pictures
that go with that job.

740
00:35:11,490 --> 00:35:15,810
There's constant communication, email,
phone calls, text messages, and I think

741
00:35:15,810 --> 00:35:18,780
that's, you know, some of the things that
we've implemented over the years that

742
00:35:18,780 --> 00:35:22,680
have been probably different than maybe
what the normal sign company is doing.

743
00:35:23,280 --> 00:35:27,330
Um, I know that some of the other
softwares that we're using aren't

744
00:35:27,330 --> 00:35:28,950
even relevant to the sign industry.

745
00:35:29,460 --> 00:35:32,880
Um, some of the, some of the things
that we're, we're using are kind

746
00:35:32,880 --> 00:35:37,260
of things that we would use in
other industries, and we've merged

747
00:35:37,260 --> 00:35:39,090
'em over into the industry here.

748
00:35:39,810 --> 00:35:44,370
The other thing that, you know,
we, we like to do is we like to

749
00:35:44,370 --> 00:35:47,940
know ourselves what our staff
is doing on an hourly basis.

750
00:35:47,940 --> 00:35:49,380
Like we wanna know what's going on.

751
00:35:49,650 --> 00:35:53,130
And so we evaluate each job every day.

752
00:35:53,160 --> 00:35:56,970
When it comes in, they have the
paperwork they turn in, and all that

753
00:35:56,970 --> 00:35:58,680
gets uploaded onto the computers.

754
00:35:58,685 --> 00:36:00,450
There's spreadsheets that we have that.

755
00:36:00,750 --> 00:36:06,689
All that data is, uh, inputted by, uh,
an an individual and it goes to the PMs

756
00:36:06,689 --> 00:36:11,040
and the PM can see, okay, did we allocate
enough time for each of those jobs?

757
00:36:11,250 --> 00:36:13,740
I feel like one of the things in the
design industry, and you know, we,

758
00:36:13,745 --> 00:36:17,669
we still struggle with this time at
times, our estimator has this idea

759
00:36:17,669 --> 00:36:19,410
that a job's gonna take eight hours.

760
00:36:19,410 --> 00:36:22,859
It's a full day's worth of work,
two crews, four men on the job.

761
00:36:22,980 --> 00:36:25,200
And then it turns out
the job took 12 hours.

762
00:36:25,230 --> 00:36:28,439
Well, 12 hours, four
times, four extra hours.

763
00:36:28,439 --> 00:36:29,339
That's a lot of overtime.

764
00:36:29,700 --> 00:36:32,399
That's a whole other day's
worth of work for a whole crew.

765
00:36:32,700 --> 00:36:34,529
And so you can lose a
lot of money that way.

766
00:36:34,890 --> 00:36:38,370
And so one of the things that we
constantly are doing is evaluating

767
00:36:39,060 --> 00:36:42,569
how we're pricing things and are
our guys communicating to us.

768
00:36:42,569 --> 00:36:44,879
Because, you know, it, you
guys have been signing industry

769
00:36:44,884 --> 00:36:45,870
long enough to know it's like.

770
00:36:46,410 --> 00:36:51,180
Most jobs are not what you, no matter
how good of a site survey you do,

771
00:36:51,360 --> 00:36:54,600
they're not what you thought they
were until you start exposing things.

772
00:36:54,960 --> 00:36:58,920
And so then all of a sudden you,
you run into, you run into problems.

773
00:36:59,220 --> 00:37:02,010
And so one of the things that is
on our contracts is we make sure

774
00:37:02,010 --> 00:37:05,910
this is very specific and they sign
it, is that, hey, all this pricing

775
00:37:05,910 --> 00:37:07,230
is based on normal conditions.

776
00:37:07,290 --> 00:37:12,990
And we actually talk about drywall
behind the wall, you know, exposed

777
00:37:12,990 --> 00:37:14,430
walls versus non-exposed walls.

778
00:37:14,430 --> 00:37:16,200
We talk about hitting rock.

779
00:37:16,200 --> 00:37:21,450
We talk about things that you are
gonna run into in the, in the case that

780
00:37:21,450 --> 00:37:25,170
you do run into 'em, that you already
have that in there in your contract.

781
00:37:25,170 --> 00:37:28,740
So we do a lot of change orders, but
that all, that, the change order is only

782
00:37:28,740 --> 00:37:32,490
effective if you communicate upfront and
all that language is in your contract.

783
00:37:32,490 --> 00:37:32,550
Yeah.

784
00:37:33,090 --> 00:37:34,770
And so you have to do that.

785
00:37:34,890 --> 00:37:35,130
So

786
00:37:35,130 --> 00:37:39,630
I'd like to interject here for
just a quick minute and, uh, ask

787
00:37:39,630 --> 00:37:42,095
a couple of questions because I.

788
00:37:42,509 --> 00:37:44,100
Ryan's been asking all of the

789
00:37:44,100 --> 00:37:44,640
questions,

790
00:37:44,759 --> 00:37:44,910
dude.

791
00:37:44,910 --> 00:37:47,340
I, yeah man, I, I was, I was waiting

792
00:37:47,340 --> 00:37:49,380
for you, man, and I'm
sitting here just with

793
00:37:50,190 --> 00:37:51,300
waiting for an opportunity.

794
00:37:51,300 --> 00:37:54,420
So I have some, I have a couple of
points here I'd like to ask about.

795
00:37:55,020 --> 00:37:58,590
I would like to, I would like to
actually ask a very direct question here.

796
00:37:59,160 --> 00:38:03,060
Uh, in your opinion, you've gotten
to five to, I think you said you're

797
00:38:03,060 --> 00:38:06,090
gonna do $7 million this year,
so we'll use that number here.

798
00:38:06,090 --> 00:38:06,795
So you're a $7

799
00:38:06,795 --> 00:38:07,200
million.

800
00:38:07,205 --> 00:38:07,884
That's the sign.

801
00:38:07,884 --> 00:38:11,610
That's the sign company, but our combine
companies will probably do close to 10.

802
00:38:11,880 --> 00:38:12,180
Okay.

803
00:38:12,360 --> 00:38:13,590
So the sign company's

804
00:38:13,710 --> 00:38:14,910
doing 7 million.

805
00:38:15,000 --> 00:38:15,450
Right.

806
00:38:16,020 --> 00:38:19,710
And you just mentioned a really
interesting piece here that comes up a

807
00:38:19,710 --> 00:38:25,560
lot on our calls and, and certainly a lot
in my meetings with my clients is that.

808
00:38:26,295 --> 00:38:32,384
Do you find it that you are
not I one of two reasons.

809
00:38:32,384 --> 00:38:35,445
If you're questioning your pricing, I,
I find it that it's one of two reasons.

810
00:38:35,445 --> 00:38:39,015
So I'm gonna ask you very direct,
which one do you think in your

811
00:38:39,015 --> 00:38:40,365
business is something that affects

812
00:38:40,365 --> 00:38:41,145
your company?

813
00:38:41,595 --> 00:38:42,195
Is it

814
00:38:42,645 --> 00:38:46,935
not charging the right rate
or not charging the right

815
00:38:46,935 --> 00:38:47,924
amount of hours?

816
00:38:48,825 --> 00:38:49,215
Hmm.

817
00:38:49,634 --> 00:38:51,435
Well, let me put it to you this way.

818
00:38:51,765 --> 00:38:53,775
I might not be able to answer
your question, but I might

819
00:38:53,775 --> 00:38:55,575
answer it in a different way.

820
00:38:56,325 --> 00:39:05,145
So, a lot of installs are specific to how
many hours are you working on those jobs,

821
00:39:05,775 --> 00:39:09,645
but we do not price jobs based on hours.

822
00:39:10,215 --> 00:39:10,665
Okay?

823
00:39:11,025 --> 00:39:12,435
So let me give you an example.

824
00:39:12,435 --> 00:39:14,955
And I, I, I, I've preached
just to a lot of sign guys.

825
00:39:14,960 --> 00:39:15,315
I know.

826
00:39:16,005 --> 00:39:19,275
So when you're doing work for
other sign companies, they

827
00:39:19,275 --> 00:39:20,505
wanna know your hourly rate.

828
00:39:21,555 --> 00:39:25,815
And I, I won't go into specifics,
but we have one contract and it's

829
00:39:25,820 --> 00:39:27,255
a million dollar contract a year.

830
00:39:27,255 --> 00:39:29,145
We do a million just for this one client.

831
00:39:29,415 --> 00:39:33,645
They make us document, so
they have their own system.

832
00:39:33,705 --> 00:39:37,485
We have to, when we get to the job site,
and they, and this is tracked, I mean,

833
00:39:37,665 --> 00:39:41,115
they got GPS capability, they'll know
where there, they'll know when we leave.

834
00:39:41,625 --> 00:39:47,685
So when we get on the site, we have to log
into their system, we're on site, we have

835
00:39:47,690 --> 00:39:51,255
to then fill out their own spreadsheet.

836
00:39:51,285 --> 00:39:52,395
That's different than ours.

837
00:39:52,400 --> 00:39:54,735
Have to dot, you know, fill
in all the dotted lines.

838
00:39:54,795 --> 00:39:56,955
And then when we leave,
we have to clock out.

839
00:39:56,955 --> 00:39:59,505
So we, we red strap and we leave the site.

840
00:40:00,255 --> 00:40:08,445
They want us to only use the hours that we
worked for that job to be, to be billed.

841
00:40:08,985 --> 00:40:12,945
Is I, is that how one of your clients
are or is this just one specific one?

842
00:40:13,005 --> 00:40:16,785
No, no, this is one client,
but they're, they're probably

843
00:40:17,055 --> 00:40:18,405
first or second largest client.

844
00:40:18,405 --> 00:40:19,995
I mean, they're, they're up there.

845
00:40:20,745 --> 00:40:22,935
So this one client required this.

846
00:40:22,995 --> 00:40:27,165
So just to give you a backstory on this,
I bought, I bought a company a few years

847
00:40:27,165 --> 00:40:31,424
ago that had been around for a hundred
years and that was their biggest client.

848
00:40:32,354 --> 00:40:34,544
When I looked at how they did
this, I had a problem with that.

849
00:40:34,549 --> 00:40:35,265
And here's why.

850
00:40:35,714 --> 00:40:39,225
It's because, first off, I pay
my installers a lot more than

851
00:40:39,254 --> 00:40:40,875
local installers get paid.

852
00:40:40,935 --> 00:40:42,884
I have the best working for me.

853
00:40:43,665 --> 00:40:44,625
I also have the best equipment.

854
00:40:44,745 --> 00:40:49,214
I mean, if you go outside, all
of our trucks are 2017 or newer.

855
00:40:49,274 --> 00:40:53,325
You know, they're all five years old
or younger, and we have good equipment.

856
00:40:53,714 --> 00:40:55,754
We also are fully outfitted.

857
00:40:55,845 --> 00:41:00,165
We have some of the best tools and
we have some of the best training

858
00:41:00,165 --> 00:41:03,015
I feel that the industry can allow.

859
00:41:03,825 --> 00:41:07,154
And so when our guys go out, I'm confident
that they're gonna do it in a fraction

860
00:41:07,154 --> 00:41:09,104
of the time than most saw installers.

861
00:41:09,915 --> 00:41:14,895
So why should I be penalized knowing
that I'm gonna get it done in a

862
00:41:14,895 --> 00:41:17,354
fraction of the time because I'm
providing the better equipment?

863
00:41:17,384 --> 00:41:18,645
'cause I'm providing the better install.

864
00:41:19,650 --> 00:41:24,990
So I've gotten far away from, now we
have our hourly rate internally, right?

865
00:41:25,020 --> 00:41:26,940
So we have our internal hourly rate.

866
00:41:27,330 --> 00:41:31,380
When someone calls us off, you
know, say it's just a random store

867
00:41:31,380 --> 00:41:35,430
owner who has lights out, we give
'em a minimum charge and we tell

868
00:41:35,430 --> 00:41:36,870
'em it's a two hour minimum rate.

869
00:41:37,680 --> 00:41:38,700
That's a little different.

870
00:41:38,700 --> 00:41:42,930
But when we're pricing jobs for
installs, or we're pricing jobs of

871
00:41:42,930 --> 00:41:46,020
our own that we're manufacturing and
installing, we're pricing out on what

872
00:41:46,025 --> 00:41:47,760
the value of that job is worth to us.

873
00:41:48,240 --> 00:41:51,720
So a lot of the jobs, if you were to do
it hourly, you would only get paid like

874
00:41:51,720 --> 00:41:56,670
600 bucks, but we're getting paid 1800
and it's just because we're doing it in

875
00:41:56,670 --> 00:41:59,430
three hours versus, you know, a whole day.

876
00:42:00,150 --> 00:42:00,180
Okay?

877
00:42:00,180 --> 00:42:02,040
And so we know this going into it.

878
00:42:02,040 --> 00:42:06,570
So we, I feel like most guys are
not doing it this way 'cause I've

879
00:42:06,570 --> 00:42:07,920
talked to a lot of sign guys now.

880
00:42:07,920 --> 00:42:10,560
I don't know what y'all, y'all
have experienced a lot more here

881
00:42:10,560 --> 00:42:13,560
recently with your podcast and
the, the circles you guys are in.

882
00:42:14,085 --> 00:42:16,275
I don't know what you guys are
seeing, but I'm seeing guys are still

883
00:42:16,275 --> 00:42:17,625
doing everything based on the hour.

884
00:42:17,655 --> 00:42:18,525
That's what I've been seeing.

885
00:42:18,615 --> 00:42:19,035
Yeah.

886
00:42:19,035 --> 00:42:19,845
It's, it's,

887
00:42:20,415 --> 00:42:24,555
I think it's very normal to be
reliant on time and materials.

888
00:42:24,555 --> 00:42:27,945
It's a, it's a, there is a
formula, there is a calculation

889
00:42:27,945 --> 00:42:29,325
to how to become profitable.

890
00:42:29,385 --> 00:42:35,085
I think for my question here, it was more,
you, you're not a $500,000 a year company.

891
00:42:35,085 --> 00:42:37,335
You're not a million
dollar a year sign company.

892
00:42:37,340 --> 00:42:40,635
And there are a lot of our clients,
a lot of our listeners here are in

893
00:42:40,635 --> 00:42:46,125
that world of 2 million or a sub
2 million gross operation where

894
00:42:46,455 --> 00:42:49,815
they're struggling like, what is,
why am I working my butt off here?

895
00:42:49,820 --> 00:42:50,055
And, and.

896
00:42:51,735 --> 00:42:54,165
At the end of the day, I have
nothing to show for it other

897
00:42:54,165 --> 00:42:55,635
than my bills being paid.

898
00:42:55,635 --> 00:42:58,275
And, um, I basically bought myself a job.

899
00:42:58,515 --> 00:43:02,415
And there's been a lot of messages here
of, well, maybe you're not charging

900
00:43:02,415 --> 00:43:06,855
enough and, or maybe you're not charging
enough hours or you're undervaluing

901
00:43:06,915 --> 00:43:08,595
how long projects are going to take.

902
00:43:08,895 --> 00:43:11,925
It is interesting to hear how a
shop, like yours is saying, I'm

903
00:43:11,925 --> 00:43:14,085
pricing based off of internal value.

904
00:43:14,475 --> 00:43:17,205
Uh, I would say that
that's not the normal.

905
00:43:17,260 --> 00:43:18,705
I, I, I like, I love it.

906
00:43:18,710 --> 00:43:20,625
I have met shops that do that.

907
00:43:20,985 --> 00:43:24,945
I think Brian and I have a, a
colleague here that we know of.

908
00:43:24,945 --> 00:43:26,775
I remember thinking of
one off the top of my head

909
00:43:27,195 --> 00:43:28,755
that this

910
00:43:28,760 --> 00:43:30,220
sign's gonna last you 20 years.

911
00:43:30,440 --> 00:43:35,625
So it's, I'm putting a crazy price
on this project because that's what

912
00:43:35,630 --> 00:43:37,185
it's worth to you, the customer.

913
00:43:37,845 --> 00:43:37,935
Mm-Hmm.

914
00:43:38,175 --> 00:43:41,235
Lots of, lots of really interesting
theories around pricing.

915
00:43:41,295 --> 00:43:43,695
Uh, I wanted to, before we
got too far ahead, I wanted to

916
00:43:43,700 --> 00:43:45,375
ask my second question here.

917
00:43:45,795 --> 00:43:47,625
Uh, and you alluded to this.

918
00:43:48,615 --> 00:43:52,995
Sign doing a change order
and, and having that ability

919
00:43:53,055 --> 00:43:54,075
of pivoting,

920
00:43:54,795 --> 00:44:01,095
uh, if the job went outside the
boundaries of a normal, uh, scope of work.

921
00:44:01,875 --> 00:44:03,435
Now, that

922
00:44:03,440 --> 00:44:04,965
is hard to do, right?

923
00:44:04,965 --> 00:44:09,075
I would say that that's hard to do
if you've never mentioned it before.

924
00:44:09,075 --> 00:44:11,115
The the, the job commenced, right?

925
00:44:11,115 --> 00:44:14,775
If you're mentioning it midway
through or even after the job

926
00:44:14,775 --> 00:44:16,785
is over, it's a hard sell.

927
00:44:16,785 --> 00:44:20,175
So what are you doing in the
beginning to communicate that to

928
00:44:20,180 --> 00:44:25,005
your customer on, you know, if this
happens, it's gonna be this price.

929
00:44:25,035 --> 00:44:28,035
I mean, after all it is, they
are called estimates, right?

930
00:44:28,035 --> 00:44:33,585
So this is your estimate and it's
estimated it could be this way, but if

931
00:44:33,585 --> 00:44:35,805
it doesn't, it could be X, Y, and Z.

932
00:44:35,810 --> 00:44:37,275
And how do you navigate

933
00:44:37,275 --> 00:44:38,205
those waters?

934
00:44:39,585 --> 00:44:42,440
So I think the biggest thing
is the upfront contract is

935
00:44:42,975 --> 00:44:46,365
we, we emphasize the details.

936
00:44:46,845 --> 00:44:49,395
In the bottom and we make them assignment.

937
00:44:49,785 --> 00:44:53,805
And we are very specific to, to indicate
the fact that this is just an estimate

938
00:44:53,805 --> 00:44:55,245
and it's based on normal conditions.

939
00:44:55,634 --> 00:45:00,255
So we know specifically the two things
that we run into are when we're digging

940
00:45:00,255 --> 00:45:04,515
a hole, if we're gonna run into rock,
if we're gonna run into boulders, if

941
00:45:04,515 --> 00:45:09,705
we're gonna run into, if some type of
obstructive device that our equipment

942
00:45:09,705 --> 00:45:12,645
won't dig through, then we're gonna
have a problem as, as a matter of fact,

943
00:45:12,855 --> 00:45:17,535
recently we were in the mountains of
Virginia and we were digging, and we

944
00:45:17,535 --> 00:45:20,955
didn't even make it two inches and we're
hitting like a boulder and it ended up

945
00:45:20,960 --> 00:45:28,845
costing us, our cost was $16,000 to drill
through that, that rock, original cost

946
00:45:28,845 --> 00:45:33,465
for that to the customer was $3,500 to
drill that hole and put the foundation in.

947
00:45:33,765 --> 00:45:35,115
So we would've lost.

948
00:45:35,430 --> 00:45:38,250
Or tell on that had we not
had the language we had.

949
00:45:38,460 --> 00:45:39,625
And so the customer understood it.

950
00:45:39,630 --> 00:45:42,210
It was a gas station, they
understood it, they realized that

951
00:45:42,240 --> 00:45:44,339
they wanted to sign there, they
were gonna have to deal with it.

952
00:45:44,759 --> 00:45:48,089
I feel like the other thing that you
run across more often than not is,

953
00:45:49,110 --> 00:45:52,049
obviously most of the surveys, and
a lot of times we're not surveying

954
00:45:52,200 --> 00:45:56,160
some of these jobs because we're
getting 20 locations at a time.

955
00:45:56,310 --> 00:45:58,440
They want a simple survey
just for measurements.

956
00:45:58,650 --> 00:46:01,650
We don't get into the inside of the
office space 'cause they don't want us

957
00:46:01,650 --> 00:46:03,900
disrupting their, their work at the time.

958
00:46:04,110 --> 00:46:08,310
So we might pull out a drop ceiling
tile or something just to see what's

959
00:46:08,310 --> 00:46:11,220
behind there, but we still don't
know exactly what's behind that wall.

960
00:46:11,700 --> 00:46:15,569
And I would say on a weekly basis,
we're running into, you know, o

961
00:46:15,660 --> 00:46:20,700
obstacles on channel letter jobs where
you can't necessarily just throw the

962
00:46:20,705 --> 00:46:23,069
whip in and pull it through the wall.

963
00:46:23,075 --> 00:46:24,060
There's, there's.

964
00:46:24,360 --> 00:46:25,500
I beams in the way.

965
00:46:25,500 --> 00:46:30,450
There's, you know, there's separations
of, of, of, of roofs and, and, and,

966
00:46:30,450 --> 00:46:32,790
and, and, uh, the, the office space.

967
00:46:33,090 --> 00:46:35,280
And there's just things
that are unforeseen.

968
00:46:35,310 --> 00:46:39,240
And in those cases, we always
contact the client immediately.

969
00:46:39,510 --> 00:46:43,200
So it's our job to communicate to our PMs.

970
00:46:43,440 --> 00:46:45,570
You know, the installer is
supposed to communicate to the PM

971
00:46:45,570 --> 00:46:47,190
immediately when they realize this.

972
00:46:47,190 --> 00:46:51,840
The first thing our guys are supposed to
do is go inside and start drilling and

973
00:46:51,840 --> 00:46:55,050
one guy's on the inside, one guy's on the
outside and see what we're up against.

974
00:46:55,080 --> 00:46:57,600
And as soon as possible, the
earlier you let know the better.

975
00:46:57,840 --> 00:47:00,720
And the sooner you can communicate
that, normally we're not charging

976
00:47:00,720 --> 00:47:03,630
a lot more, you know, it might be
an extra two hours worth of work.

977
00:47:03,990 --> 00:47:07,830
Nine out of 10 times, you're
not gonna have disruption

978
00:47:07,830 --> 00:47:08,910
in the job because of that.

979
00:47:09,270 --> 00:47:12,300
There are a few instances, a
few times a year where someone's

980
00:47:12,300 --> 00:47:13,440
like, well, we don't have.

981
00:47:14,055 --> 00:47:16,215
The, the PO is what it is.

982
00:47:16,215 --> 00:47:17,985
We gave you our full budget on that.

983
00:47:17,985 --> 00:47:19,095
We don't have any room.

984
00:47:19,275 --> 00:47:20,535
We've gotta go back to the client.

985
00:47:20,535 --> 00:47:21,525
It's gonna take a little bit.

986
00:47:21,705 --> 00:47:22,845
So then we give 'em an option.

987
00:47:22,850 --> 00:47:25,305
Well, if we have to leave the job
site and come back, it's even gonna

988
00:47:25,310 --> 00:47:29,085
cost an extra 600 bucks on top of
that, or whatever the case may be.

989
00:47:29,475 --> 00:47:32,895
So all of a sudden that
changes the conversation.

990
00:47:32,955 --> 00:47:33,915
They were like, okay, you know what?

991
00:47:33,975 --> 00:47:36,194
We're gonna just accept
the responsibility on this.

992
00:47:36,255 --> 00:47:37,095
Go ahead and do it.

993
00:47:37,485 --> 00:47:40,485
And so I can think of very few instances
where we've had to leave the job site.

994
00:47:40,485 --> 00:47:43,515
Most of the time they're going to pay
for it because they're going to have

995
00:47:43,520 --> 00:47:46,665
much, you know, much more coming to them.

996
00:47:46,665 --> 00:47:49,634
If they don't, it's gonna be more
difficult to get the job done later.

997
00:47:50,595 --> 00:47:50,924
Yeah,

998
00:47:51,285 --> 00:47:52,210
no, that's, that's great.

999
00:47:52,270 --> 00:47:58,185
Hey, like to me, like the story here is
just like, you guys are way more prepared

1000
00:47:58,185 --> 00:48:01,154
than the average shop for all scenarios.

1001
00:48:01,545 --> 00:48:04,005
Like, we've got a
communication plan in place.

1002
00:48:04,770 --> 00:48:05,730
For anything.

1003
00:48:05,880 --> 00:48:09,900
Uh, basically like, hey, if,
if somebody loses a shoelace on

1004
00:48:09,900 --> 00:48:14,160
the job or like, hey, like, like
we've, we've got a, an action plan

1005
00:48:14,160 --> 00:48:14,610
for it.

1006
00:48:15,150 --> 00:48:17,430
I don't know if we're that good
'cause we were just talking about that

1007
00:48:17,430 --> 00:48:22,830
earlier where we have found that, you
know, we need to have an inventory of

1008
00:48:23,130 --> 00:48:27,960
truck equipment because sporadically
equipment ends up missing on a job site.

1009
00:48:28,320 --> 00:48:28,410
Hmm.

1010
00:48:28,560 --> 00:48:32,760
And things come off a, a truck, you
know, we've gotta have a system for that.

1011
00:48:32,910 --> 00:48:35,190
But this is, I mean, this is
part of the growing pains, right?

1012
00:48:35,190 --> 00:48:38,970
I mean, one of the advantages
to owning other businesses in

1013
00:48:38,975 --> 00:48:42,810
different industries is you, you
get exposed to other ideas, right?

1014
00:48:42,870 --> 00:48:46,710
And so I will say that a lot of the
ideas compliment the sign industry.

1015
00:48:46,710 --> 00:48:49,680
I would say they actually would be
better in the sign industry than

1016
00:48:49,680 --> 00:48:50,850
the current industry they're in.

1017
00:48:50,910 --> 00:48:53,490
I'm like, wow, why is the sign
industry not familiar with this?

1018
00:48:53,790 --> 00:48:53,880
Right?

1019
00:48:53,880 --> 00:48:55,470
Like the landscape lighting industry.

1020
00:48:55,470 --> 00:48:59,760
I learned a technique and something
in the landscape, uh, industry that.

1021
00:49:00,300 --> 00:49:04,200
Allowed for me to do things quicker and
easier and cheaper in the sign industry.

1022
00:49:04,590 --> 00:49:09,060
And so I think it's, you know, I don't
know, maybe I, being a serial entrepreneur

1023
00:49:09,065 --> 00:49:11,280
can have, its, it, its, its cons too.

1024
00:49:11,280 --> 00:49:15,960
But I feel like there's more pros to it
just because I get exposed to a lot of

1025
00:49:15,960 --> 00:49:18,240
different ideas from different worlds.

1026
00:49:18,600 --> 00:49:23,400
And those worlds might not even have
any relevance to the sign industry.

1027
00:49:23,400 --> 00:49:27,090
It just turns out most of what I'm
in is related to the sign industry.

1028
00:49:27,120 --> 00:49:29,790
'cause I'm in lighting or
manufacturing of some sort.

1029
00:49:30,330 --> 00:49:35,070
But I have learned as much, if not
more from people outside of our

1030
00:49:35,070 --> 00:49:38,940
industry when it comes to ideas
to implement within our industry.

1031
00:49:38,945 --> 00:49:39,035
Mm-Hmm.

1032
00:49:39,300 --> 00:49:41,760
And I feel like sometimes we're
so consumed with the ideas

1033
00:49:41,760 --> 00:49:43,770
of the guys in our industry.

1034
00:49:43,830 --> 00:49:46,110
I'm not saying that that's
a bad thing, by the way.

1035
00:49:46,110 --> 00:49:48,090
I think it's a great
thing you guys are doing.

1036
00:49:48,690 --> 00:49:53,190
But even interviewing out, interviewing
people outside of the industry might be

1037
00:49:53,190 --> 00:49:56,610
an option, you know, or something where
someone's just successful in business.

1038
00:49:57,044 --> 00:49:59,895
Bringing them onto the podcast
because that's where I've gotten a

1039
00:49:59,895 --> 00:50:01,395
lot of my intellect and my knowledge.

1040
00:50:01,424 --> 00:50:03,615
'cause I'm definitely, I'm
as blue collar as they come.

1041
00:50:03,615 --> 00:50:04,634
I grew up on a farm.

1042
00:50:05,145 --> 00:50:09,915
Problem solving was like kind
of my go-to, but problem solving

1043
00:50:10,515 --> 00:50:12,134
for me was a everyday occurrence.

1044
00:50:12,134 --> 00:50:13,575
I'm like, there's gotta be better ways.

1045
00:50:13,575 --> 00:50:16,035
And it was systems, it was like
implementing systems for everything.

1046
00:50:16,365 --> 00:50:16,575
Yeah.

1047
00:50:16,575 --> 00:50:16,845
So

1048
00:50:17,205 --> 00:50:18,404
problem solving.

1049
00:50:18,404 --> 00:50:18,944
Yeah.

1050
00:50:18,975 --> 00:50:19,634
Huge thing.

1051
00:50:19,845 --> 00:50:23,504
Like, you know, we've got probably
just a few minutes remaining.

1052
00:50:23,955 --> 00:50:28,185
I definitely wanna touch on that side
of it, man, because you, you've got all

1053
00:50:28,185 --> 00:50:31,754
these different businesses, but yet when
I look at 'em and when you describe them,

1054
00:50:32,564 --> 00:50:34,995
they all compliment each other very well.

1055
00:50:35,000 --> 00:50:37,544
And, and like, the big question
that I had coming into it was,

1056
00:50:38,145 --> 00:50:39,674
was this in, was that intentional?

1057
00:50:39,674 --> 00:50:42,794
Like, did you do that by design
or was it just like a, like a

1058
00:50:42,794 --> 00:50:45,464
Bob Ross like happy accident type

1059
00:50:45,464 --> 00:50:45,705
of thing?

1060
00:50:46,605 --> 00:50:49,814
Well, so I'm probably not your
traditional business owner.

1061
00:50:49,964 --> 00:50:51,884
I did not go to school for business.

1062
00:50:52,395 --> 00:50:54,285
Um, my major was criminal justice.

1063
00:50:54,810 --> 00:51:01,500
I had no foundation of or
understanding of how to run a business.

1064
00:51:02,215 --> 00:51:06,330
I, I was very passionate about
at the time, vinyl graphics.

1065
00:51:06,335 --> 00:51:10,950
I, I mean, it sounds so simple, not so
complex, but at the time it was right,

1066
00:51:10,950 --> 00:51:15,900
because vinyl was still kind of a newer
thing too, you know, in, in the nineties.

1067
00:51:15,900 --> 00:51:19,020
I mean, I, I remember when I
bought out Dowling Sign, which

1068
00:51:19,020 --> 00:51:19,980
was a hundred year old company.

1069
00:51:19,980 --> 00:51:23,910
I ha I have one employee who has worked
in the sign industry for 50 years.

1070
00:51:24,450 --> 00:51:26,130
Wow, he's 70 years old.

1071
00:51:26,310 --> 00:51:29,940
He started in the business for 20
years and he can tell you every story

1072
00:51:29,970 --> 00:51:31,740
about the advances in technology.

1073
00:51:31,740 --> 00:51:33,210
And it's an interesting story.

1074
00:51:33,210 --> 00:51:36,905
Lemme tell you, his interview
would be much better, I guarantee.

1075
00:51:38,340 --> 00:51:41,490
But he, you know, he would
tell me of all the advances.

1076
00:51:41,490 --> 00:51:45,630
And I think to myself, I remember when I
specifically was doing the airbrushing,

1077
00:51:45,840 --> 00:51:49,410
and I'm sure you guys have seen those
old methods where the guys would airbrush

1078
00:51:49,410 --> 00:51:53,010
the vinyl first, then go cut it, and
you had to align everything perfectly.

1079
00:51:53,010 --> 00:51:54,870
And it, it was quite the task.

1080
00:51:54,870 --> 00:51:59,880
But, you know, the, the reality is I
did all those things because I loved it.

1081
00:52:00,120 --> 00:52:01,200
I was passionate about it.

1082
00:52:01,740 --> 00:52:06,450
And then when I became, I, I guess,
a successful business owner in the

1083
00:52:06,450 --> 00:52:10,110
sign industry, I figured some things
out that I was like, you know what?

1084
00:52:10,620 --> 00:52:13,620
I enjoy building something
from nothing to something I.

1085
00:52:14,235 --> 00:52:18,945
So I started some other companies and
then I saw some struggling businesses

1086
00:52:19,035 --> 00:52:21,945
and I had some rapport with some
of the owners of those businesses.

1087
00:52:22,215 --> 00:52:24,525
So they had reached out to me, what
are you doing that I'm not doing?

1088
00:52:24,885 --> 00:52:26,925
And next thing you know, I'm
buying those companies out.

1089
00:52:27,015 --> 00:52:31,245
And when I saw the things they
weren't doing, it really shocked me.

1090
00:52:31,365 --> 00:52:34,005
I was like, you know, it doesn't
take it a rocket scientist.

1091
00:52:34,035 --> 00:52:38,055
'cause I'm definitely not one to figure
out that you have a communication

1092
00:52:38,055 --> 00:52:41,985
problem, you have a personnel problem.

1093
00:52:42,135 --> 00:52:48,285
I mean, when, when your guys, I mean, so
I have a no smoking policy at at work.

1094
00:52:48,285 --> 00:52:51,795
That sounds really like that's going
out on a limb in the sign industry.

1095
00:52:51,795 --> 00:52:52,065
Right?

1096
00:52:53,895 --> 00:52:56,985
I saw on some of the group pages,
that conversation got brought up

1097
00:52:56,985 --> 00:52:59,685
and I was like, you know, people
probably wouldn't wanna work for me.

1098
00:52:59,685 --> 00:53:03,585
But the reality is I don't, I mean, I have
a lot of smokers that work here, right?

1099
00:53:03,615 --> 00:53:06,645
I mean, I would say probably a
third of the staff probably smokes.

1100
00:53:07,005 --> 00:53:10,125
Um, I don't know who all of 'em are,
but I know who a few of 'em are.

1101
00:53:10,665 --> 00:53:16,305
But the, the fact is, what we found is
that it was distracting from the things

1102
00:53:16,305 --> 00:53:17,685
that need to get done during the day.

1103
00:53:18,165 --> 00:53:20,325
And it wasn't a professional outlook.

1104
00:53:20,325 --> 00:53:23,355
We were actually at complaints at times
where the installers were going out on

1105
00:53:23,355 --> 00:53:25,455
job sites and leaving the cigarette butts.

1106
00:53:25,695 --> 00:53:28,935
And, you know, it's just, I'm
unprofessional and I couldn't, I, I really

1107
00:53:28,935 --> 00:53:32,835
couldn't control it because I was saying,
guys, this is a bad business practice.

1108
00:53:32,835 --> 00:53:33,525
Don't do this.

1109
00:53:33,675 --> 00:53:34,125
Guess what?

1110
00:53:34,125 --> 00:53:34,215
Right.

1111
00:53:34,215 --> 00:53:35,415
A week later I'm getting a call.

1112
00:53:35,655 --> 00:53:36,315
Same thing.

1113
00:53:36,390 --> 00:53:36,680
Yeah.

1114
00:53:36,685 --> 00:53:36,915
Yeah.

1115
00:53:36,945 --> 00:53:43,305
And, and so what I found is that
there was no labor laws that told,

1116
00:53:43,485 --> 00:53:45,525
set indicated that I couldn't do this.

1117
00:53:45,555 --> 00:53:47,746
And when I looked into a lot of big
businesses to it, as a matter of

1118
00:53:47,840 --> 00:53:49,005
fact, the federal government does it.

1119
00:53:49,215 --> 00:53:53,985
So, you know, they have no smoking
policies, you know, and so what I

1120
00:53:53,985 --> 00:53:57,405
implement it is that, hey, is while
you're on the clock, while you're

1121
00:53:57,405 --> 00:54:00,645
driving our trucks, while you're
on job sites, while you're in our

1122
00:54:00,645 --> 00:54:04,965
facilities, you're not allowed to smoke
on your breaks and designated areas.

1123
00:54:05,025 --> 00:54:05,715
You're allowed to smoke.

1124
00:54:06,195 --> 00:54:08,385
And I can tell you this, that changed.

1125
00:54:08,745 --> 00:54:12,285
The, the, the pendulum a little bit
because all of a sudden I started

1126
00:54:12,285 --> 00:54:14,595
attracting certain individuals
that were like, you know what?

1127
00:54:14,595 --> 00:54:17,505
I wanna work around guys that are just
passionate about this business, love this

1128
00:54:17,505 --> 00:54:19,335
business, and want to get something done.

1129
00:54:20,085 --> 00:54:23,145
I'm, I'm, you know, and I found that
people shared the same type of passion I

1130
00:54:23,145 --> 00:54:24,825
did, even though they weren't the owner.

1131
00:54:24,825 --> 00:54:26,925
They, they, they loved the industry.

1132
00:54:27,255 --> 00:54:31,065
And so people all of a sudden just
were like a magnet to my company.

1133
00:54:31,125 --> 00:54:35,625
And so we attracted really
good, you know, um, employees.

1134
00:54:35,745 --> 00:54:38,265
And on top of that, we attracted
people outside of the industry.

1135
00:54:38,384 --> 00:54:38,895
I quit.

1136
00:54:38,955 --> 00:54:41,835
That's another thing, by the way, if I
ever was gonna suggest if I was gonna

1137
00:54:41,835 --> 00:54:44,895
start anywhere with some of these guys
that, you know, maybe are struggling,

1138
00:54:45,404 --> 00:54:46,995
don't always look within the industry.

1139
00:54:47,505 --> 00:54:51,765
I did that for so long and that was the
kryptonite that I didn't realize was

1140
00:54:52,005 --> 00:54:57,315
like hindering me from growing because I
was bringing in someone with bad habits.

1141
00:54:57,315 --> 00:55:00,404
And I'm not saying don't hire
within, I'm just saying look outside.

1142
00:55:00,884 --> 00:55:03,615
There might be good people out
there that are worth hiring and can

1143
00:55:03,615 --> 00:55:05,355
learn just about anything we do.

1144
00:55:05,775 --> 00:55:08,325
So I would definitely suggest that.

1145
00:55:09,120 --> 00:55:13,500
Going back to your, your, your
conversation with me earlier, Peter, is I

1146
00:55:13,500 --> 00:55:19,049
would have a hard look at the pricing that
most people are looking at and are they

1147
00:55:19,049 --> 00:55:23,610
looking at it as like, this is what fast
times is charging, this is what Joe signs.

1148
00:55:23,610 --> 00:55:24,265
Joe is down the street.

1149
00:55:24,265 --> 00:55:24,384
Yeah.

1150
00:55:24,384 --> 00:55:25,350
Is that what they're looking at?

1151
00:55:25,350 --> 00:55:26,640
Are they just average pricing?

1152
00:55:26,790 --> 00:55:31,680
Are they really looking at what
they are doing on a daily basis

1153
00:55:31,830 --> 00:55:32,940
to put out a good product?

1154
00:55:33,360 --> 00:55:33,690
Right.

1155
00:55:33,720 --> 00:55:36,720
Or they, or do they really understand
the, what it costs to do business?

1156
00:55:36,960 --> 00:55:40,170
Because if they're just looking at the
averages and everyone calls fast science

1157
00:55:40,170 --> 00:55:41,460
because they're like the model, right?

1158
00:55:41,460 --> 00:55:47,520
They have a huge, you know, they have a,
a, a, a few huge, uh, uh, platform to work

1159
00:55:47,520 --> 00:55:49,590
off of when it comes to average pricing.

1160
00:55:49,950 --> 00:55:53,430
But the reality is I'm probably not
gonna compete with them in certain

1161
00:55:53,430 --> 00:55:54,690
areas when it comes to pricing.

1162
00:55:55,590 --> 00:55:58,170
And so I don't use them
as my model for pricing.

1163
00:55:58,170 --> 00:56:03,720
I wanna deliver a particular product to
a particular client, and I wanna make

1164
00:56:03,720 --> 00:56:05,485
sure I understand my cost to do that.

1165
00:56:06,120 --> 00:56:09,780
And when I do, then I have to
understand the markups to be successful.

1166
00:56:10,620 --> 00:56:14,190
And the markups, everybody
is like, oh, just 50%.

1167
00:56:14,550 --> 00:56:14,760
You know?

1168
00:56:14,760 --> 00:56:15,690
I'm like, no, no.

1169
00:56:16,415 --> 00:56:17,025
Yeah, yeah.

1170
00:56:17,610 --> 00:56:20,820
It's 50% won't get you anywhere, so, no.

1171
00:56:20,910 --> 00:56:21,180
Yeah, I

1172
00:56:21,180 --> 00:56:21,630
love that.

1173
00:56:21,690 --> 00:56:25,170
Um, and because it, it, you know, when
you think about it, when it boils down to

1174
00:56:25,170 --> 00:56:30,570
it, the same product, the same sign to a
different client holds a different value.

1175
00:56:30,690 --> 00:56:33,570
So there's two sides of the coin,
and that's definitely one of

1176
00:56:33,570 --> 00:56:34,740
the things that, that we preach.

1177
00:56:34,770 --> 00:56:36,510
Like you have to know your
numbers, like what does it

1178
00:56:36,570 --> 00:56:37,950
cost to actually deliver this?

1179
00:56:38,550 --> 00:56:41,970
But the rest of it is up
for interpretation, right?

1180
00:56:41,970 --> 00:56:44,880
Depending on who the client
is or what the job is.

1181
00:56:45,240 --> 00:56:48,600
You know, are you dealing with Joe's
Pizza down the street that has one

1182
00:56:48,600 --> 00:56:52,560
location, or are you dealing with a,
like a national chain of pizza shops?

1183
00:56:52,680 --> 00:56:52,890
Yep.

1184
00:56:52,950 --> 00:56:56,520
You know, like, like their tolerance
as far as price is totally different.

1185
00:56:56,910 --> 00:56:59,460
I, I'll tell you too, that
something that really helped

1186
00:56:59,460 --> 00:57:01,680
me is when I was doing a job.

1187
00:57:02,115 --> 00:57:04,335
For a larger corporation.

1188
00:57:04,424 --> 00:57:08,415
They sent me the sign package,
so it was a modeled sign package

1189
00:57:08,415 --> 00:57:09,795
that every location I had to do.

1190
00:57:10,365 --> 00:57:13,455
And I asked specifically, I said,
what is your budget for this?

1191
00:57:14,325 --> 00:57:18,315
And they told me what corporate's
budget guidelines are for those signs.

1192
00:57:18,975 --> 00:57:19,875
I was blown away.

1193
00:57:20,325 --> 00:57:22,214
It was actually the opposite
of what you would think.

1194
00:57:22,214 --> 00:57:25,605
It was much higher than what I
would've originally priced it at.

1195
00:57:26,444 --> 00:57:28,274
Then I realized I was
selling myself short.

1196
00:57:28,395 --> 00:57:33,734
I, that was like the a moment for me where
I was like, wow, if they're doing this all

1197
00:57:33,734 --> 00:57:38,174
over the country, then how am I selling
myself this short when I live in an area

1198
00:57:38,180 --> 00:57:40,935
where I know is growing and can afford it?

1199
00:57:41,444 --> 00:57:43,575
And so I realized I was
undervaluing myself.

1200
00:57:43,575 --> 00:57:46,004
And then I started understanding
what it cost to really do business

1201
00:57:46,004 --> 00:57:50,145
too, because all this time I was
just average pricing and I was like,

1202
00:57:50,174 --> 00:57:53,174
obviously I'm putting a lot more
emphasis on the quality of the product.

1203
00:57:53,415 --> 00:57:54,734
I'm delivering a better product.

1204
00:57:54,740 --> 00:57:57,105
But yeah, I'm pricing like
the guys down the street.

1205
00:57:57,404 --> 00:58:00,285
That's not, that's not a good
way to, to run a business.

1206
00:58:01,995 --> 00:58:04,424
Well, uh, I think we're about at time.

1207
00:58:04,424 --> 00:58:05,444
I, I don't wanna keep you, Paul.

1208
00:58:05,444 --> 00:58:06,615
I know you're super busy.

1209
00:58:07,065 --> 00:58:10,634
I would love to do this again sometime
soon, man, because it like, ah, I feel

1210
00:58:10,640 --> 00:58:12,495
like we could chat for days about it.

1211
00:58:12,855 --> 00:58:13,035
Yeah.

1212
00:58:13,065 --> 00:58:16,815
Um, what's, Hey, one question that we
always ask everybody to kind of wrap

1213
00:58:16,819 --> 00:58:20,924
things up, like, what's, what's the
future for you, for your business?

1214
00:58:20,924 --> 00:58:23,145
Like, is, you know,
you've got a soapbox here.

1215
00:58:23,145 --> 00:58:27,404
Like is there anything you want to, to say
to the audience or do you wanna close with

1216
00:58:27,975 --> 00:58:34,365
Well, I have six kids, so my goal, my goal
right now is to get them out of school

1217
00:58:34,605 --> 00:58:37,065
and, you know, starting their own careers.

1218
00:58:37,154 --> 00:58:41,805
And, um, you know, my focus right
now isn't on retirement or what to

1219
00:58:41,805 --> 00:58:44,415
do, you know, uh, 20 years from now.

1220
00:58:44,415 --> 00:58:47,145
My focus really is to just
continue to build the businesses

1221
00:58:47,145 --> 00:58:48,315
so they can run themselves.

1222
00:58:48,580 --> 00:58:49,904
I, I, I'm very blessed.

1223
00:58:49,904 --> 00:58:51,495
I don't have to go into the sign shop.

1224
00:58:51,495 --> 00:58:53,475
I do it because I love
going into the sign shop.

1225
00:58:53,740 --> 00:58:57,825
I, I, it took me years to figure
out the model of allowing myself to

1226
00:58:57,825 --> 00:58:59,475
not be the guy that had to be there.

1227
00:59:00,060 --> 00:59:04,259
And that to me is the key, if any,
I don't care if you are running

1228
00:59:04,265 --> 00:59:07,740
a $2 million shop or $20 million
shop, it wouldn't matter to me.

1229
00:59:07,740 --> 00:59:09,779
I think you need to set that as your goal.

1230
00:59:10,020 --> 00:59:12,510
Make it so you don't
have to be there 24 7.

1231
00:59:12,899 --> 00:59:16,439
I ran myself ragged and Peter, I
believe you, you, you've owned your

1232
00:59:16,439 --> 00:59:22,049
own company yourself and you know,
you guys know all too well how you

1233
00:59:22,049 --> 00:59:23,520
can be a slave to the business.

1234
00:59:23,970 --> 00:59:24,660
Oh yeah.

1235
00:59:24,720 --> 00:59:25,799
It's all consuming.

1236
00:59:25,979 --> 00:59:26,790
All consuming.

1237
00:59:27,029 --> 00:59:29,640
No, and and, and I don't know if you
guys know this or aware of this or not,

1238
00:59:29,970 --> 00:59:34,379
the suicide rate is higher for business
owners than it is for an average employee.

1239
00:59:34,859 --> 00:59:38,910
The divorce rate is higher, and
there, there's a reason for that.

1240
00:59:38,910 --> 00:59:42,569
And it's because we become so attached
to the business and, you know,

1241
00:59:42,569 --> 00:59:45,689
we're all, we all as, as, as men,
we wanna provide for our families.

1242
00:59:45,689 --> 00:59:48,720
I think that's probably my
goal, ultimately, right?

1243
00:59:48,720 --> 00:59:52,680
That's, I mean, before being
successful and being a millionaire

1244
00:59:52,680 --> 00:59:54,540
and all these things, I wanna be, I.

1245
00:59:54,840 --> 00:59:57,270
A provider to my family, I wanna
make sure they have a home.

1246
00:59:57,275 --> 00:59:58,590
I wanna make sure they
have food on the table.

1247
00:59:58,800 --> 01:00:02,130
So a hundred percent you think when
you're, you think when you're at work, you

1248
01:00:02,130 --> 01:00:05,790
know, at eight o'clock, nine o'clock, 10
o'clock, midnight, and I, I'm not gonna

1249
01:00:05,790 --> 01:00:07,320
ask 'cause I already know the answer.

1250
01:00:07,860 --> 01:00:13,470
All of you have probably at some point
done the all-nighter and I feel constantly

1251
01:00:13,530 --> 01:00:17,130
regretful for those times I did that
because I didn't know what I didn't know.

1252
01:00:17,640 --> 01:00:19,470
And it was just simple little things.

1253
01:00:19,470 --> 01:00:21,990
I had to implement changes
within my own business.

1254
01:00:22,260 --> 01:00:23,610
It was all self-inflicted.

1255
01:00:23,615 --> 01:00:27,960
The reason I was staying at work
after five o'clock and when I made

1256
01:00:27,960 --> 01:00:31,020
my priority, i, i time blocked.

1257
01:00:31,350 --> 01:00:34,920
So I said, you know what, if my
priority is my family, then I'm gonna

1258
01:00:34,925 --> 01:00:39,000
make sure the majority of my time is
contributed to them on a weekly basis.

1259
01:00:39,570 --> 01:00:43,830
And I would encourage anyone who's
struggling with that to, to whatever

1260
01:00:43,830 --> 01:00:47,280
you gotta do, if you gotta get up an
hour earlier, if you've gotta force

1261
01:00:47,280 --> 01:00:51,870
yourself to leave an hour earlier,
whatever you've gotta do, start time

1262
01:00:51,870 --> 01:00:53,610
blocking your time for your family.

1263
01:00:54,165 --> 01:00:55,185
And it will force you.

1264
01:00:55,185 --> 01:00:59,085
And I'm, I'm sure you guys have, uh,
done this yourself When you've gone to,

1265
01:00:59,355 --> 01:01:04,095
to Disney, when you know you're leaving
the next week for a vacation, you're able

1266
01:01:04,100 --> 01:01:05,595
to get a lot more work done that week.

1267
01:01:05,600 --> 01:01:05,690
Mm-Hmm.

1268
01:01:05,770 --> 01:01:07,785
Because, you know, you don't wanna
have to deal with it on vacation.

1269
01:01:08,265 --> 01:01:10,305
Well, you just gotta learn how
to do that on a weekly basis.

1270
01:01:10,305 --> 01:01:15,165
How can I get more work done and less
time so I can, you know, attribute

1271
01:01:15,165 --> 01:01:16,665
the majority of my time to my family?

1272
01:01:17,025 --> 01:01:19,335
And so that's, that's what I
would encourage anyone to do.

1273
01:01:19,335 --> 01:01:20,175
That's what I've done.

1274
01:01:20,655 --> 01:01:24,135
That, that has allowed me to open these
other businesses and continue to do that.

1275
01:01:24,855 --> 01:01:29,625
But I'm never, I'm never at a
point where I've become complacent

1276
01:01:29,685 --> 01:01:31,065
and say, oh, I figured it out.

1277
01:01:31,455 --> 01:01:34,755
I'm still, I'm still learning,
you know, listening to you like.

1278
01:01:35,085 --> 01:01:38,805
Your podcasts and other podcasts that
are out there getting as much education.

1279
01:01:38,805 --> 01:01:39,345
'cause guess what?

1280
01:01:39,345 --> 01:01:43,005
Next week you might have a guest on
here that might give me that idea

1281
01:01:43,125 --> 01:01:45,585
that I've never thought of, and
save me another hour of my week.

1282
01:01:45,915 --> 01:01:46,995
So that's all it takes.

1283
01:01:47,175 --> 01:01:48,015
That's the reason why we

1284
01:01:48,015 --> 01:01:48,675
do what we do.

1285
01:01:48,675 --> 01:01:51,375
Even if it you, you're probably
not the average viewer.

1286
01:01:51,375 --> 01:01:54,855
The average listener is not gonna
sit here and listen to an hour

1287
01:01:54,855 --> 01:01:56,745
worth of knowledge they might grasp.

1288
01:01:57,840 --> 01:01:59,520
A, a nugget here or two.

1289
01:02:00,065 --> 01:02:03,600
And, and, and that's why I do it because
I, I come away with every one of these

1290
01:02:03,600 --> 01:02:06,870
episodes and, and, and I, and I've
learned here something here today.

1291
01:02:07,259 --> 01:02:09,210
Uh, but, but again, I've

1292
01:02:09,210 --> 01:02:10,529
seen Peter's notes, man.

1293
01:02:10,620 --> 01:02:13,590
They're like, if you are, if
each episode after he is done,

1294
01:02:13,980 --> 01:02:16,410
if you are listening to this
and, and you're thinking like,

1295
01:02:16,740 --> 01:02:20,759
how do, how do I grow myself
to a five, $10 million company?

1296
01:02:21,300 --> 01:02:24,450
You probably could learn a lot
from just listening to what

1297
01:02:24,450 --> 01:02:26,100
you've discussed here today, Paul.

1298
01:02:26,250 --> 01:02:28,259
So I wanted to say
thank you for coming on.

1299
01:02:28,770 --> 01:02:29,970
This has been great for me.

1300
01:02:30,270 --> 01:02:34,890
Uh, I, I think we should definitely
have you on again and, and, and

1301
01:02:34,890 --> 01:02:37,800
let's talk some more about some
of these businesses that you have.

1302
01:02:37,800 --> 01:02:39,990
Maybe you'll be in another
business by then, who knows.

1303
01:02:40,610 --> 01:02:44,100
But, uh, happy to have you on here
and thanks for jumping on our, uh,

1304
01:02:44,190 --> 01:02:46,050
on the Better Sign Shot podcast here.

1305
01:02:47,190 --> 01:02:48,300
Yeah, well, I appreciate it.

1306
01:02:48,305 --> 01:02:49,500
I appreciate what you guys do.

1307
01:02:49,505 --> 01:02:50,610
Keep, keep doing it.

1308
01:02:51,509 --> 01:02:53,430
And, uh, I, I wish you the best.

1309
01:02:53,850 --> 01:02:54,509
When's the,

1310
01:02:54,509 --> 01:02:55,980
when's the announcement
on the lighting company?

1311
01:02:56,819 --> 01:02:57,919
So before ISA.

1312
01:02:58,470 --> 01:02:59,955
Okay, so before INA.

1313
01:02:59,955 --> 01:03:00,584
Yeah, for sure.

1314
01:03:00,584 --> 01:03:02,055
So are you guys gonna be there?

1315
01:03:02,415 --> 01:03:03,134
That's the plan.

1316
01:03:03,375 --> 01:03:03,825
Okay.

1317
01:03:03,915 --> 01:03:07,515
Well hopefully we'll, but definitely
keep us on the loop on that.

1318
01:03:07,575 --> 01:03:09,615
Um, happy to spread the gospel.

1319
01:03:10,064 --> 01:03:10,754
Yeah, yeah.

1320
01:03:10,759 --> 01:03:11,535
No, absolutely.

1321
01:03:11,535 --> 01:03:13,334
It's, it's gonna, it's gonna be good.

1322
01:03:13,334 --> 01:03:17,354
I can tell you this, I've only been doing
that for a little period of time here,

1323
01:03:17,685 --> 01:03:20,294
and it is a money maker for sign guys.

1324
01:03:20,294 --> 01:03:22,245
I mean, really, truly, I'm
not just saying that because

1325
01:03:22,245 --> 01:03:23,325
I'm about to push the product.

1326
01:03:23,625 --> 01:03:26,205
It, it, it is something that
sign guys can do in their sleep.

1327
01:03:26,265 --> 01:03:28,484
It really is Awesome.

1328
01:03:28,754 --> 01:03:29,564
I look forward to it.

1329
01:03:29,685 --> 01:03:31,095
Paul, thanks for coming on, man.

1330
01:03:31,214 --> 01:03:31,604
Alright guys.

1331
01:03:31,604 --> 01:03:32,325
Fountain of knowledge.

1332
01:03:32,384 --> 01:03:33,075
Super excited.

1333
01:03:33,075 --> 01:03:33,375
We could do

1334
01:03:33,375 --> 01:03:33,645
this.

1335
01:03:34,004 --> 01:03:34,125
Yeah.

1336
01:03:34,125 --> 01:03:34,334
See you.

1337
01:03:34,334 --> 01:03:34,995
Thank you very much.

1338
01:03:34,995 --> 01:03:35,325
All right, bye-Bye.

1339
01:03:35,384 --> 01:03:35,475
Take

1340
01:03:35,475 --> 01:03:35,714
care, man.

1341
01:03:35,984 --> 01:03:37,515
Alright guys, that's the episode.

1342
01:03:38,265 --> 01:03:39,404
Wow, what a doozy.

1343
01:03:39,645 --> 01:03:43,395
Um, I, I feel like we could have
probably talked to Paul for like

1344
01:03:43,395 --> 01:03:48,584
three days at a time here, but,
uh, Pete, rapid fire takeaways.

1345
01:03:48,944 --> 01:03:49,125
Yeah.

1346
01:03:49,125 --> 01:03:50,865
Well, I mean, let's talk
about the obvious one.

1347
01:03:51,044 --> 01:03:55,455
The obvious one being how easy it is
to get into the lighting business.

1348
01:03:56,174 --> 01:04:00,225
I'm not too familiar with this area, but
as somebody who has taken my service,

1349
01:04:00,285 --> 01:04:04,545
my sign service vehicles and used them
to hang my own Christmas lights, I mean,

1350
01:04:04,545 --> 01:04:10,275
like, yeah, if you could make a business
out of that, uh, that sounds phenomenal.

1351
01:04:10,279 --> 01:04:15,464
I'm sure we could have gotten into like
all the processes and, you know, it

1352
01:04:15,464 --> 01:04:19,545
is a totally different business model
and I would've liked to have heard a

1353
01:04:19,545 --> 01:04:24,674
little bit more, come to think of it
on, you know, how he structures that

1354
01:04:24,674 --> 01:04:26,325
business versus his sign business.

1355
01:04:26,330 --> 01:04:28,095
You know, how different
those worlds could be.

1356
01:04:28,095 --> 01:04:34,605
But ideally you buy the supply, you use
your truck, you put on another shirt, you

1357
01:04:34,605 --> 01:04:39,225
go outside and you hang some lights on
people's, on people's houses, and then

1358
01:04:39,225 --> 01:04:40,785
you gotta go and take those lights down.

1359
01:04:41,025 --> 01:04:42,734
I think that that's part of the model too.

1360
01:04:42,740 --> 01:04:45,674
If I had to guess, it's a, it's
not just installing, it's removing.

1361
01:04:45,680 --> 01:04:50,025
So, you know, what do
those rates look like and.

1362
01:04:51,060 --> 01:04:53,145
I think it could be a great
money maker for a lot of shops

1363
01:04:53,149 --> 01:04:55,305
with, with bucket trucks.

1364
01:04:55,334 --> 01:04:56,535
If you have more than one.

1365
01:04:56,625 --> 01:05:02,564
It's a great way to get them out into the
service area and start making some money.

1366
01:05:03,015 --> 01:05:03,345
Yeah.

1367
01:05:03,555 --> 01:05:03,734
Yeah.

1368
01:05:03,734 --> 01:05:06,765
It's just super excited about
that side of it, or, yeah.

1369
01:05:06,765 --> 01:05:10,694
I wish we had more time to dive into
that, but, uh, for me, I think the, the

1370
01:05:10,694 --> 01:05:17,024
biggest takeaway is Paul was just like,
Hey, this guy imparted the wisdom on me.

1371
01:05:17,024 --> 01:05:18,375
I need to double my prices.

1372
01:05:18,375 --> 01:05:20,444
Like, let's not waste time on it.

1373
01:05:20,444 --> 01:05:22,365
Like I, I go back and double my prices.

1374
01:05:22,365 --> 01:05:22,604
Right.

1375
01:05:23,205 --> 01:05:27,015
Like, for me, I, I think
like increasing your pricing.

1376
01:05:27,435 --> 01:05:32,564
I, I don't think we've talked to a shop
owner yet that we weren't like, don't.

1377
01:05:33,044 --> 01:05:33,674
Oh, yeah, yeah.

1378
01:05:33,674 --> 01:05:37,515
Like, Hey, you need to increase your
prices or you should increase your prices.

1379
01:05:38,084 --> 01:05:38,984
Uh, and what was that?

1380
01:05:38,984 --> 01:05:40,604
I don't think I've ever given that advice.

1381
01:05:40,604 --> 01:05:43,185
Like, no, you need to lower your
prices because you're too high.

1382
01:05:44,055 --> 01:05:44,924
Not once.

1383
01:05:45,645 --> 01:05:46,064
Yeah.

1384
01:05:46,069 --> 01:05:46,120
I,

1385
01:05:47,024 --> 01:05:47,805
I don't think I.

1386
01:05:49,035 --> 01:05:52,335
Say, I think I could say the same,
you know, maybe you'll deal with a

1387
01:05:52,335 --> 01:05:56,985
client that's, or a shop owner that's
10% lower than they should be, 15%

1388
01:05:56,985 --> 01:05:58,605
lower than they should be, but double.

1389
01:05:59,085 --> 01:06:02,475
I mean, that takes a lot of,
that takes a lot of guts.

1390
01:06:02,895 --> 01:06:04,605
It also takes a lot of self-awareness.

1391
01:06:04,605 --> 01:06:09,405
Like he seemed pretty confident in
the quality of his work, you know?

1392
01:06:09,405 --> 01:06:09,406
Yeah.

1393
01:06:09,411 --> 01:06:14,055
And he's, he, some of the other takeaways,
just minor ones for me, where he did say

1394
01:06:14,055 --> 01:06:17,955
that he's like the top paying sign shop
in the area, so he only hires the best,

1395
01:06:18,705 --> 01:06:21,525
you know, and that, that is interesting.

1396
01:06:21,585 --> 01:06:22,245
That is interesting.

1397
01:06:22,245 --> 01:06:25,695
If you're gonna be that top paying
guy, you gotta produce the best, but

1398
01:06:25,695 --> 01:06:27,255
you also gotta charge the, the most.

1399
01:06:28,125 --> 01:06:31,905
So there are some balances to
that, that, uh, I would love to

1400
01:06:32,355 --> 01:06:34,485
ask him on our, on our next time.

1401
01:06:34,485 --> 01:06:37,455
But he was a great guest,
a great entrepreneur, a

1402
01:06:37,455 --> 01:06:39,225
great, uh, sign shop owner.

1403
01:06:39,465 --> 01:06:43,275
And, uh, I think a lot of our
shop listeners here can, can

1404
01:06:43,275 --> 01:06:46,520
learn from, from Paul and, and
what we've discussed here today.

1405
01:06:47,115 --> 01:06:47,325
All right,

1406
01:06:47,325 --> 01:06:48,705
let's, let's take it out guys.

1407
01:06:49,005 --> 01:06:49,785
That's the episode.

1408
01:06:49,785 --> 01:06:52,695
If you are interested in being
a guest on the podcast, hit us

1409
01:06:52,695 --> 01:06:55,215
up at hey@bettersignshop.com.

1410
01:06:55,665 --> 01:06:59,145
And if you are a shop
owner, join our community.

1411
01:06:59,145 --> 01:06:59,955
It's free.

1412
01:07:00,165 --> 01:07:01,815
We have a Facebook group.

1413
01:07:01,875 --> 01:07:06,435
Uh, there'll be a URL somewhere in
the description, like it is free for

1414
01:07:06,435 --> 01:07:09,075
owners and leadership of sign companies.

1415
01:07:09,855 --> 01:07:13,995
Uh, we screen all, everybody that
comes through the door, so it is a safe

1416
01:07:13,995 --> 01:07:18,225
space to talk about all these things
we talk about on the podcast, except

1417
01:07:18,230 --> 01:07:19,455
you could talk about your own business.

1418
01:07:19,845 --> 01:07:21,735
And that's it.

1419
01:07:22,275 --> 01:07:25,515
Um, we look forward to seeing
you on the next episode.

1420
01:07:27,180 --> 01:07:28,260
So that's the episode.

1421
01:07:28,260 --> 01:07:29,250
I hope you enjoyed it.

1422
01:07:29,460 --> 01:07:33,960
I'd like to give one final shout out
to our sponsor, GCI Digital Printing

1423
01:07:34,200 --> 01:07:39,150
Grand Format Printer to the trade
GCI is not your average print shop.

1424
01:07:39,540 --> 01:07:43,380
They pride themselves on
providing you a fast stress-free

1425
01:07:43,385 --> 01:07:45,090
experience when outsourcing.

1426
01:07:45,600 --> 01:07:46,770
They're no excuses.

1427
01:07:46,770 --> 01:07:50,940
Mindset means no matter the job,
they'll have it done every time.

1428
01:07:51,420 --> 01:07:55,380
No other vendor will go to the
links that GCI does to ensure

1429
01:07:55,380 --> 01:07:57,150
you are a satisfied customer.

1430
01:07:57,750 --> 01:08:01,380
To hear more about their approach
to business, hop back into the

1431
01:08:01,380 --> 01:08:05,819
archives to episode nine where the
guys and I interview owner TJ B Act

1432
01:08:06,120 --> 01:08:08,370
about top tier customer experience.

1433
01:08:08,759 --> 01:08:13,080
If you're looking for a high quality
trade printer for banners, mesh,

1434
01:08:13,170 --> 01:08:18,300
core blasts and more, TJ and his
crew were small, GCI does them all.

1435
01:08:18,750 --> 01:08:22,019
Check them out@printgci.com.

1436
01:08:23,309 --> 01:08:23,609
If you

1437
01:08:23,609 --> 01:08:26,790
liked this episode, make sure
you hit subscribe to get all the

1438
01:08:26,790 --> 01:08:31,500
latest episodes and check out our
website, better sign shop.com.

1439
01:08:32,160 --> 01:08:35,460
Get free resources and helpful
tools on growing your shop.

1440
01:08:35,819 --> 01:08:36,809
Thanks for listening.