Engineering Calmer Agencies & Consulting Firms: Calm is the New KPI

Today we're going full-on geek and talking about project management software with two of my fellow project management software nerds.

We're talking about why you would pick one particular software tool over another, the importance of making sure the software you pick works with your brain, and how to avoid sabotaging yourself with getting distracted by the latest shiny new tool.

Key take-aways:

- Different approaches to setting up our software and why we chose the particular software tool we did
- Philosophies of picking out or recommending software
- How constantly looking at new tools can result in self-sabotage
- Things Marie and Layla are doing in Notion and ClickUp that have really changed how productive or focused they’re able to be
- Strong systems create stability – something that we all can use right now

Show Notes

Most businesses grow on the fly. We add software and processes and systems here and there – patching in tools “for now” because “it’ll do”.

But “for now” almost always turns into “forever”. Because who wants to spend time picking out (and setting up) project management software when you could be out closing clients or delivering white-glove service?

You probably picked your project management software based on a recommendation or because it’s something you’re “supposed” to have. Maybe you got started on Asana or Trello because that’s what "everybody" was using at the time.

But now, 3 or 5 or 10 years down the road, it's become a major limitation to you and your team being able to actually DO your work.

When you're focusing on getting lean and efficient in your business, evaluating your software is an easy place to start.  For remote companies, not only is software usually one of the biggest expenses, but it's also usually a primary communication tool.

It's what you use to let your team know what to work on and it keeps everyone in the loop on what's happening. Or, at least it SHOULD.

So it's worth your time to take a few minutes and evaluate the tools you're using.

And that's why today we're going full-on geek and talking about project management software with two of my fellow project management software nerds.

Marie Poulin, of Notion Mastery, helps ambitious business owners level up their digital systems, workflow, and productivity, so they can spend more time on what matters. She's been an influential voice in the Notion community and has created a lot of the Notion resources available today.

Layla Pomper is a fellow member of Team ClickUp. She owns ProcessDriven.co where she equips “old school” teams with the right software to increase their consistency and profitability in day-to-day operations.

We're talking about why you would pick one particular software tool over another, the importance of making sure the software you pick works with your brain, and how to avoid sabotaging yourself with getting distracted by the latest shiny new tool.

Listen to the full episode to hear:
  • How we have different approaches to setting up our software and why we chose the particular software tool we did
  • What our philosophies are when you're picking out or recommending software
  • How constantly looking at new tools can result in self-sabotage
  • What cool things Marie and Layla are doing in Notion and ClickUp that have really changed how productive or focused they’re able to be
  • How strong systems create stability – something that we all can use right now
Marie’s Links:
Layla’s Links:
Susan’s Links:

Grab the Calm Service Design + Delivery Swipe File here

Creators and Guests

Host
Susan Boles
Speaker, Podcaster & Consultant at Beyond Margins | 15+ years of experience as both a CFO and COO

What is Engineering Calmer Agencies & Consulting Firms: Calm is the New KPI?

Can you build a business based on… “calm?” Host Susan Boles looks beyond the usual metrics of success to help you build a business where calm is the new KPI. With over 15 years of experience as an entrepreneur, CFO, and COO, Susan shares the business strategies that lead to a business with comfortable margins—financial, emotional, energetic, and scheduling margins. Join her and her guests as they counter the prevailing “wisdom” about business growth, productivity, and success to provide a framework for making choices that align with your values and true goals. Episode by episode, you’ll get a look at the team management, operations, financials, product development, and marketing of a calmer business.

Susan Boles:

Strong systems create stability, and if there's one thing we could all use right now, it's a little stability. If you're in a position right now to shore up the foundation of your business and create stability, you can ride towards future growth. This is a great time to examine the systems your business is built on and how you manage those systems. And since most of us manage those systems with a core piece of software, I figured that was as good of a place as any to start. I'm Susan Boles, and you're listening to break the ceiling, the show where we break down unconventional strategies you can use to save time, boost your profit, and increase your operational capacity.

Susan Boles:

Most businesses grow on the fly. We add software and processes and systems here and there, patching in tools for now because, well, it'll do. But for now almost always turns into forever because who wants to spend time picking out and setting up project management software when you could be out closing clients or delivering white glove service? You probably picked your project management software based on a recommendation or because it's something you're supposed to have. Maybe you got started on Asana or Trello because that's what, well, everybody was using at the time.

Susan Boles:

But now 3 or 5 or 10 years down the road, it's become a major limitation to you and your team being able to actually do your work. When you're focusing on getting lean and efficient in your business, evaluating your software is an easy place to start. For remote companies, not only is software usually one of the biggest expenses, it's also usually a primary communication tool. It's what you use to let your team know what to work on and it keeps everyone in the loop on what's happening or at least it should. So it's worth your time to take a few minutes and evaluate the tools you're using.

Susan Boles:

And that's what we'll be talking about today, project management software. Can I just tell you how excited I am for this? We are going full on geek this week. I've brought in 2 of my fellow project management software nerds to chat with me. Marie Poulin of Notion Mastery helps ambitious business owners level up their digital systems, workflow, and productivity so they can spend more time on what matters.

Susan Boles:

She's been an influential voice in the Notion community, and she's created a lot of the Notion resources that are available today. Leila Pomper is a fellow member of team ClickUp. She owns process driven dotc0 where she equips old school teams with the right software to increase their consistency and profitability in day to day operations. And we're talking about why you would pick one particular software tool over another, the importance of making sure the software you pick works with your brain, and how to avoid sabotaging yourself with getting distracted by the latest shiny new tool. Alright.

Susan Boles:

Hi, ladies. Thanks so much for being here today. I think this is gonna be an awesome conversation. Yeah. Yeah.

Marie Poulin:

Thanks for having us.

Susan Boles:

So, Marie, you are the resident Notion expert. You have become, like, the Notion person. So what made you choose Notion as your tool of choice?

Marie Poulin:

Funny enough, I was actually doing my permaculture diploma, and I needed a place to do really messy thinking, but also track to dos, to track research, to track, images, videos. It's a little strange, but I just needed a place that I could just get really messy and kind of pull a number of different types of media together. And I stumble I had actually tried Notion a year prior and was like, okay, this is kinda cool, but I don't really see, like, what I can do with this. And I kinda let it sit for about a year. And then I picked it back up again when I was doing my diploma.

Marie Poulin:

And once I started to see what was possible, and then all of my like personal to dos were in there, our business to dos were still in Asana and I still felt like I was kind of pulled between 2 different systems. Mhmm. So I needed to like get my husband's buy in on Notion, which meant I then had to recreate what we were doing in Asana inside of Notion. Because I knew it was like show, don't tell. There was no way I gonna get his buy.

Marie Poulin:

And if I was like, look at this, like, shiny tool that can do all these things, I was like, look what it can do. We can recreate our to dos and our priority system and everything. So that was kind of the beginning of opening that whole can of worms with Notion.

Susan Boles:

Yeah. I like you, I had a very similar reaction when I first was in Notion, was, this is this seems cool, but also I can't figure out how to make this. Like, the learning curve of it felt so steep that

Marie Poulin:

It's huge.

Susan Boles:

It was just I was just like, yeah. This is cool, but that seems like a lot of effort. So, Leila, I know that you are on the ClickUp bandwagon with me. Can you talk a little bit about why ClickUp felt like the right tool for you?

Layla Pomper:

Yeah. Team ClickUp here. But, you know, it's funny because I kind of had a similar story to what Marie was saying. Because I started using ClickUp, and I was kinda, like, this is kinda clunky. It's the opposite.

Layla Pomper:

Right? It was too much structure. And so I started using it. I was like, I don't know. And I kind of I had a free account, and I was like, I'm not sure if this makes sense to move my team to it.

Layla Pomper:

So I was using Asana and Trello and just about every other tool partially, and I can't say what it was. But at some point, I was like, alright. I need a little bit more. I think it was specifically Asana. I needed a little bit more complexity than what Asana could do, even on the pro plan.

Layla Pomper:

It was just kind of felt like everything was extra. And so I was like, let me just go back to this ClickUp thing and start playing with it more seriously. And, yeah, I just kind of, fell in love with what exactly, ClickUp can do. So the reason I really like it is because it has a little bit more structure to it, but it can be it views the same data in so many different ways, which is kind of like an Asana attribute. It lets you view one thing in a Kanban, one thing in a list, one thing in a Gantt chart.

Layla Pomper:

And I think because certain times, I wanna be really Excel spreadsheet y, and sometimes I just feel like I need to almost mind map. Being able to do that all in the same tool without having to have a 1,000,000 tabs open, which was kind of my usual, was really refreshing.

Susan Boles:

Yeah. I had, a similar experience with ClickUp to you, Leila, where when I first started it, so I was apparently a very early like, I think I was one of the first 100 users, which I didn't realize until they started doing the ClickUp 2 point o releases Yep. When they're like, we're rolling it out by how old your account is. And I was like, oh, I I didn't know I was that early. Yeah.

Susan Boles:

And for me, ClickUp 1 point o was like you. It was nice, but not enough. So I was still, I was using Excello, which is another, project management software that is kind it's sort of the opposite, I feel like, of Notion and ClickUp, in that it is extremely structured. It is very specifically, a project management tool that works exactly the way you would expect project management tools to work, and it has a CRM and some invoicing stuff. So it's a really nice tool if you are an agency that invoices people, like, time and materials, and you're trying to do a lot of, like, project based costing, but it is the completely other end of the spectrum because it is very robust and it's flexible, but really only in the, like, automation kind of triggers.

Susan Boles:

And so, I was using Accelo and then using Todoist for my personal stuff because I really liked how streamlined it was. I'm very checklisted y. And for me, ClickUp, once ClickUp got to, like, 2.0 where there were so many other features and, like, custom fields and all of those things, it felt, like it was familiar Mhmm. In a way that Notion didn't feel familiar to me. Notion felt like I had to go build the relational database, and I was too lazy to do that, where ClickUp felt like the relational database was there and I could just take advantage of it.

Susan Boles:

But for me, another big factor was, the Zapier integration that ClickUp has that, as far as I know, Notion still doesn't. I know it's on the roadmap. It's coming. Yep. That's a big one.

Susan Boles:

But also the recurring tasks. So a lot of my tasks are like, bookkeeping kind of things that I have to do the same thing at the same point of the month every month. And that was a big aspect of ClickUp that I really enjoyed. What I'm interested in, in your take on this is a lot of the folks that I've talked to that are very, Notion y people, people that like Notion, are, more content people. So, like, when thoughts come out of your head, they come out like writing in full sentences versus project manager y type people, like Leila and I are, that are that like the ClickUp style because stuff comes out in tasks.

Susan Boles:

Like, when when things come out of your head, like, when things come out of my head, it's, okay, here's a project, and here are all the steps that have to happen, versus I'm gonna, like, write about what my idea is from a philosophical point of view and then turn that into a project. How how does that resonate with you guys? Does that feel at all

Marie Poulin:

Yes. Legit? Yeah. I I think I can totally relate to what you're saying because I think the the problem I've had with some of those tools is they're already ready for the to dos. They're already ready for the projects, but there's no, almost step before things are ready to be activated.

Marie Poulin:

And so Notion is almost a little bit more resource heavy. Like it's the planning, it's the messiness. It's the messy thinking that can happen before something gets translated into a project, which then you could also do as well. But all of those pieces, the way you handle projects, the way you handle tasks, all has to be designed. And so I don't know if it's like a left brain, right brain thinker, like or whether it's a a type of role that people tend to have where they lean toward 1 or the other.

Marie Poulin:

But what I didn't like about Asana was that everything is a task. So Mhmm. My clients have like standard operating procedures and there's ways of doing things and there's sort of lists of things, but they're not necessarily a specific thing to do yet that might influence tasks and it might turn into tasks. But so I didn't feel like there were these interim places where we could store some thinking and resources and sort of messy thinking around and that support the projects, if that

Susan Boles:

makes sense. No. That totally makes sense. And I think, I I think both ClickUp and, Notion now offer those kinds of things, in a way that Asana and Trello and a lot of the, like, standard Mhmm. I don't even really like to call them project management system because they're really more like task management systems.

Susan Boles:

They're just, like, glorified to do lists. Yeah. Yes. So, like, to me, Asana is a checklist, and, Trello is a Kanban board. And, I always had a hard time with Trello.

Susan Boles:

At least, Asana to me, I felt like you could manage multiple projects relatively easily ish. But that Trello, I always had a hard time being able to manage multiple projects at the same time and, like, have a good Yep. If you are somebody who has a lot of irons in the fire or a lot of clients that you're working with, I always found Trello to be really challenging in that respect that I think Notion and ClickUp, both do really well. Okay. So talk to me a little bit about your philosophies about, picking out software or, if folks ask you to recommend a software.

Susan Boles:

Once it it seems like once people know that you know a little bit about software, they're like, tell me all like, recommend other things to me. So what what are your philosophies when you're, like, doing that or picking it out for yourself?

Layla Pomper:

I love this question because I feel like this space is exploding, but everyone approaches it from different angles. So I think even as we go here, we're probably all gonna say completely different things. I think for me, I start with functionality. Like, what are we actually trying to accomplish? I think often people are saying we want a project manager, but they really just want a task tool.

Layla Pomper:

Or I want a task tool, but really they want a knowledge base. And I feel like unpacking that is my first step. But after that, and I'm glad you said something about, like, Zapier or Zapier. I always say that wrong. Zapier.

Layla Pomper:

Rhymes with happier. Rhymes with happier. Rhymes with happier. Yeah. Right?

Layla Pomper:

But I think integrations and automation for me is probably the number like, number 2 right behind function is what does it talk to? Because I'm I mostly work with small teams. I'm not sure about everyone else here, but tiny teams, its manpower is the most scarce resource. And so integrations or the ability to automate work is, like, the number one thing beyond just what exactly is it built to do.

Marie Poulin:

I, I really love that you said that too, because, in some ways I have a somewhat opposite experience, but I can, but I can totally appreciate, like tools that integrate with Zapier are super important with my clients' workflows. But in some cases, I've worked with clients who are so very not tech savvy that the automation has actually added more complexity because they actually don't, it's almost magic is happening behind the scenes and they don't even know what's happening. And that has actually proven to be a bit of a problem in, in some cases with certain clients. So while that is a factor of like, which things make sense to automate, which things do I need to kind of include instructions for and make sure that they know what is happening. I think another part that I like to check-in on is like what's already working in your workflow.

Marie Poulin:

What are the parts that are working well? Where is there friction? Where are things always falling through the cracks? Right. So it comes down to that functionality of like what's working, what's not working based on what is working or what's not working.

Marie Poulin:

Are there ways we can kind of streamline? Could, could there be one tool that could hit 3 of those and get you 80% of the way there? And they don't have to be perfect. Right? There's even though I love Notion and I'm on the Notion bandwagon and it has replaced most of my tools, I know it's not always the best fit for everyone.

Marie Poulin:

Not everyone loves tinkering with it the way that I do. Like that's that's my fun pastime, but that I don't I don't want my clients to have to suddenly add a new hobby that is learning notion to their, their timeline. So I think it's, it's also, automation is a piece of it, but also what's already working. And I don't wanna add this whole new learning curve to them. So sometimes we'll take it in steps too.

Marie Poulin:

Like this month, we're gonna focus on like getting your note keeping or your meeting notes or whatever in place. And then next month we can layer in something new and layer in something new. And with some clients that can take half a year to get them to the point where I want to get them to because their, their tech skills aren't really there. And other people, it's a lot easier to just say, let's let's change everything all at once. Let's just do it in one go.

Marie Poulin:

Right?

Susan Boles:

Yeah. I think, for me, my philosophy is kind of a a combination of both of yours, and my emphasis is always on looking at the software as an ecosystem. Yeah. So often, the often, the person that comes in after they have set up Zapier, like, 5 years ago, and now they're afraid to touch it because they're afraid they're gonna break something, and so they can't update the their procedures, where I think Zapier can be really, really powerful, and it is, like, the main piece that often is connecting all of these different tools. I I think there is an aspect of if you're not technologically savvy or you're not interested in, like, tweaking your process continually, that it can seem like a little bit of a of a black box.

Susan Boles:

But, yeah, generally, my philosophy is, like, let's look at everything that you have, figure out what's working, figure out what needs to be replaced, but let's look at all of it as a whole. Because if you don't, you end up with that, like, you picked up that one thing on AppSumo, and it seems like a really good idea, and either you forgot about it or and you're still paying for it, or you, like, hacked it onto your system, and now, you know, software has evolved to the point where you can replace 4 of your tools with one that now has all of the features that you needed for those kinds of things. So there are a lot of you know, right now, we're talking specifically about ClickUp and Notion primarily because that's, you know, where we tend to operate, but there are a lot of other flexible project management tools out there like Airtable or Coda or, some of the new ones, Fiber, Room. Yeah. Let's talk a little bit about why those weren't right, like, weren't a good fit for your business or who they might be a good fit for or use cases that they might be a good fit for.

Susan Boles:

For me Airtable? I think so. Like so for me, Airtable is one that I actually do use Airtable. It's not my main project management system, and I don't necessarily love it as a project management system. But I love it for its database capabilities.

Susan Boles:

I think that's a place where, like, Notion is really good on the database side of things where ClickUp can kind of be hacked to be a database, but it's still not like, you have a if you have a lot of data or you really need to organize it in a specific way, it's not great yet. And I don't know that it necessarily is ever going to be there because it's still, at its core, a task based. Everything is essentially a task. But I love using Airtable for database like things where you have to update a row or keep a big piece of content. I have a client that created a content library in Airtable.

Susan Boles:

So every piece of content that has ever been written and every piece of art that completely searchable. So if you're looking for a resource to provide to somebody, like, you can just search it and it just shows up, and I love that, like, aspect of it. What do you

Layla Pomper:

I mean, I will say that

Susan Boles:

you guys. What do you think? I love Excel and, by extension, Google Sheets. Right? I'm sorry.

Susan Boles:

I'm Like, I

Layla Pomper:

I say it like an extension Google Sheets. Right? I'm sorry. I'm like, I I say in economics, like I had to lower some of that sheet. But, I feel like Airtable does do a really good job of giving those, like, traditional tools a run for their money on the cloud.

Layla Pomper:

And I think one of the biggest things like, I agree with you. Totally database, not tasks, even though people try to use it.

Susan Boles:

People use it as a project management tool? Yeah. I don't get that. I think if you have really, like, not very complicated projects, it could probably work. Maybe.

Susan Boles:

Maybe. People I'm like, I still think there's better things out there for it,

Layla Pomper:

but Like ClickUp, no. Yeah. But you know what? Airtable has a really nice functionality around tags, and I feel like that is where it beats out the spreadsheet game. Like, when you have multiple attributes, like, that's where ClickUp actually does as well, but I think Airtable does a smoother job of it having ways for you to categorize and sort data into multiple categories and sort by it and track things by it.

Layla Pomper:

And because Airtable we're talking about connections. Airtable connects to so many things. I feel like it's because no one views it as a competitor. Everyone integrates with it. I don't know what it is.

Layla Pomper:

Well, I think it's like it can

Susan Boles:

be an ad hoc back end database. Like, there's a lot of no code companies now running their like, their Airtable is their database because of that connection quality.

Marie Poulin:

Yeah. I think the the ease too of being able to capture data in the in a visual form. Right? Like, a really nice sort of put your name and your details in there. And then suddenly it's in a database that you can access in so many different ways, I think is really valuable.

Marie Poulin:

Like, so I have a course on notion, but I took applications using an air table form because notion doesn't have that capability. So there are still small ways that I will still use Airtable, but I actually just recently downgraded my account, because I think I was trying to use Airtable in ways that now I can do in notion. So I don't I didn't really need it anymore. But for a while there, I was trying to, again, help those clients that weren't super tech savvy, automate some of those pieces. And it was way over their head.

Marie Poulin:

Like, it didn't matter how much of that awesomeness I put in place and was like, oh, and as soon as someone signs up for your program Yep. You can like, it didn't matter how much I explained it. It was, it felt really over their head. And I, I don't know if it's just the sort of, spreadsheet view that just, it can be a little intimidating for people that don't, don't really use that. So, I was like, well, if my clients aren't using it, it's, it's not really making sense for me to kind of push this.

Marie Poulin:

So how can I simplify this? How can I make this even easier? And so in some cases, I will actually build kind of rebuild what I had built in air table in notion, but with a more manual process. So now their instruction is import the CSV once a week, get your VA to do it. It takes 5 minutes and your data is already there.

Marie Poulin:

So there's some things. Just in my experience where the automation has been too complex for my clients. And so I've just kind of rebuilt some of those pieces in notion and that's been that's been more helpful. But it's still I think it's still an awesome tool. I think Airtable's awesome for so many use cases.

Marie Poulin:

I'm sure there's lots of other,

Susan Boles:

posts. Ready to build an Airtable database for a speaking engagement process. So I have a client that does public speaking, and we're trying to, like he he was working with a speaking company, like, a company that, like, does all of that speaking engagement coordination for you, and he's trying to make it in house. And we're gonna use Airtable with, like, the inquiry form on the website is gonna populate the Airtable database. And then we are actually gonna use Airtable as kind of the main project management system because we want to use it to, populate, like, Google Calendar invites with all of those little data points.

Susan Boles:

And Airtable is one of those, because it is a database, you can populate in, the pieces of in information and then, like, format it in a text way a little bit easier than some other tools. So, yeah. I definitely Airtable is still a really critical piece of the back end of a lot of businesses. I think it's really good for database type stuff. Most businesses grow on the fly.

Susan Boles:

We add software and systems here and there, patching in our tools for now because it'll do. But for now almost always turns into forever because who wants to spend time picking out and setting up software when you could be out closing clients or doing, well, pretty much anything else? Most of the tools and systems in your back end are probably there because you went with the flow. You picked something that was recommended to you or because it's something you're just supposed to have. When you're starting to focus on getting lean and efficient in your business, evaluating your software is a great place to start.

Susan Boles:

For remote companies, it's usually your 2nd highest expense right after your team. So taking a few minutes to evaluate the tools you're paying for can pay big dividends. You can see if they're still useful. Are you still getting the value out of them? This can be a quick way to cut at least a few $100 of costs and sometimes even a few thousand, which is a pretty decent payoff for an hour or 2 of work.

Susan Boles:

If you're ready to tackle that software audit, I have created an easy tool for you to use. It'll take you step by step through auditing your current tools and evaluating them to see if they're the right tool. It'll also give you access to a library of software tools that I recommend regularly for my 1 on 1 clients, so you don't have to slog endlessly shopping through the masses of tools on the market. Head to scalespark.c0/software tool to get started. How about Coda?

Susan Boles:

So Coda is one that I have been intrigued about forever and still don't I'm like, it's such a cool thing, but I don't have necessarily a good I've never had a great use case for it. Do you guys have any any thoughts? Have you heard any use cases?

Layla Pomper:

Yeah. When I've set it up so I've set it up a few times, not a ton, but I think that goes with all of these tools, even though I love ClickUp. ClickUp isn't the majority of the PMs I set up. It's always based on what is gonna click with someone. But I think what Marie was saying about setting up kind of like a more friendly looking spreadsheet, I would use Coda for those kind of clients who need a spreadsheet.

Layla Pomper:

Yeah. But they just But

Susan Boles:

it looks like a document.

Layla Pomper:

Exactly. Exactly. Like, trick them into thinking it's Notion. But guess what? It does things.

Susan Boles:

I love it.

Layla Pomper:

But as a use case, an actual example of how I've had it used, I've used Coda as the recipient of a Zap to keep data, just like you were saying, where it keeps a record of things that have happened in other systems. Systems. That's really for like low tech people. I think that's the extent of what I'll use apps for is for data entry and for keeping things manually in sync that wouldn't otherwise stay in sync, like contacts, etcetera, because then they don't have to interact with it. It's just when they're looking for that data, it's there.

Layla Pomper:

But I've had, a client who actually used Coda because it's so mobile friendly for anything that they're doing on the road, even like collecting people's information or having sign ins or check ins or email newsletter sign ups, creating a little Coda, like tab, it automatically added them onto their Mailchimp or whatever it would be. That was a really nice use case because it is just so friendly to have on your phone, and it looks like they have a custom app for signing in.

Susan Boles:

I like that.

Marie Poulin:

I will admit I don't dabble a lot anymore since using Notion. Like to me, I've just I've refined my systems. I have so many templates in there. And whenever I work with a client, I'm like, oh, you don't have a system here. I'll spin up all my templates into your into your workspace.

Marie Poulin:

So to me, it almost almost feels irresponsible to, like, keep, you know, shiny object syndrome exploring all of these different pieces of tech. And I know that, again, Notion isn't always it's not gonna be the best fit for everybody. But I work with very few clients at a time. And because it's so they have access to me. It's so easy for me to explain anything.

Marie Poulin:

I have built in SOPs. Everything is sort of ready. So I honestly don't spend a lot of time. Anytime there's a new tool, people are like, have you heard the new hotness? I'm like, that's nice.

Marie Poulin:

My systems are working really well. I have faith in the API. Like, I feel good about that. So I know that I'm maybe a little heavier on that on that bandwagon, and I don't always explore every single bus. I just feel like I'm gonna take some time off.

Susan Boles:

Also, like, a little bit of the difference in business models here in that Leila and I do software implementation for, like, that's Right. A core functionality of our business model, where, you know, Marie, you build software. So, actually, that brings up a really interesting point, Marie, though. You and Tiago Forte, who is the founder of Building a Second Brain, had a really interesting conversation on Twitter the other day about kind of that next new tool idea and how, like, Notion is the cool kid in town right now, but that there is kind of there's always gonna be another one on the horizon and how constantly looking at new tools can be, kind of self sabotage y, which I, you know, part of my job is to look at new tools. Mhmm.

Susan Boles:

So it can be really hard to fight that, like, shiny object syndrome. Can you talk to me a little bit about that?

Marie Poulin:

Yeah. And I think, like you said, it probably makes a lot more sense for your business model just to be aware of even what are your clients familiar with. So when they have certain language and they're coming to you being like, oh, I heard about Rome. Do I need that for my business? You know, it makes sense, I think, for you guys to be on top of what's happening there.

Marie Poulin:

But, I guess the ex one of the recent experiences I've noticed is, like, people who've taken building a second brain, Tiago I mean, the teaching is very tool agnostic, but he relies heavily on Evernote. So almost all of the lessons, all the examples, everything is done using Evernote. Now he's hearing a lot more people using notion and I took the second brain course and I implemented all of it in Notion. It was like, Notion is clearly the best tool for this. It's so organic.

Marie Poulin:

You can do almost anything. You can link any text. So I really implemented a system and I went really deep on it and started teaching other people like, Hey, here's how I'm using building a second brain and Notion together. And so I think he's noticed a lot of his audience is saying, hey, I know you talk about Evernote, but like, what about Notion over here? And I think because he definitely leans more toward being tool agnostic, but he's still clearly opinionated about using Evernote as his I

Susan Boles:

mean, everybody has their preferences, I think.

Marie Poulin:

Totally. And I, and I think because he, there's almost like a, you know, like the early adopters, you know, the laggards and whatever. And so Evernote's been kind of this like classic for a long time. Right? People have been using it for a very long time, and it's sort of one of those classic tools, but as more and more tools come about and there's more competition, people are moving away from Evernote and they're finding more tools that I think are more activating and less archival.

Marie Poulin:

And they're a little bit more like, how do I take what I'm saving here and apply it to a project and apply it to a task? So it has a different like texture to it in a way. And so I've, I've been very vocal on Twitter and especially with Tiago in saying, I think your methods make so much sense with Notion. If you ever wanna connect about this, like, I'm happy to have this conversation. And there's been a little bit of of resistance there, I think, as like, it's just a new hot tool, you know, and same with Rome Research.

Marie Poulin:

Right? There's another place that people have been, oh, I was using Notion, and now there's this Rome Research. Oh, no. My world is imploding. It's like, it doesn't have to be either or Rome Research is a research tool.

Marie Poulin:

It doesn't it's not a project management tool necessarily. It's not a data like, it's a type of database. It doesn't have to be either or. And so I do think no matter what tool you're using, people do kind of hear about a new one and they get all like, oh no, I just spent all this time learning this tool and now you don't have to, if there isn't like a gap in your process and what you're doing is working well, there's no need to kinda, oh, god. It's all or nothing and having to explore something different.

Marie Poulin:

So, I feel like sometimes Tiago and I, we agree. And other times, I'm like, I don't necessarily agree with the way that you that you see this. And so we sometimes get into little Twitter arguments about that.

Susan Boles:

Leila, talk to talk to me a little bit about your perspective on this. You probably have the same issue I do, which is that part of our business model is to know all of the new shiny tools. And at least for me, sometimes that can, you go down the rabbit hole and you're like, maybe I should switch. And, so talk to me a little bit how that works for you.

Layla Pomper:

Yeah. Oh, my gosh. It's so hard. But part of why, you know, I got into this business or this business model is because I love learning about the new tools. I, you know, I view the work that we're doing as kind of an ambassador of product.

Layla Pomper:

So we have to really know the product. Like, what product is currently and what product is becoming. It's kinda like being a fashion stylist. Right? Like, you need to know what's on the runway.

Layla Pomper:

Yes. That's cool.

Susan Boles:

Like, are you con I am constantly looking at everybody's road maps. Like, the fact that software now have public road maps, I am constantly, like, okay. Cool. What's the timeline? I really need this thing.

Susan Boles:

How long is it gonna be? Like, I Candy.

Layla Pomper:

Candy. I know. You know, where every a lot of people are using that or Trello for their road map. Oh, it is dangerous, but it's super fun to check out. And I think, like, we need to keep up on those things.

Layla Pomper:

But I think more like Marie was saying, it's it's about knowing what the shiny objects are, so you can talk people off the ledge. I think one tool am I allowed to hate on software on

Susan Boles:

here? Absolutely. Absolutely.

Layla Pomper:

One tool there are 2 tools even that are getting a lot of, I'm just gonna focus on 1. Trainual. Okay. Tons of money on advertising, big names Yeah. Speaking about it.

Layla Pomper:

If anyone's not familiar, it's supposed to be an SOP tool, helping you create your standard operating procedures, and that's all it does. But it's basically just a table of contents for a bunch of Word docs.

Susan Boles:

Yes.

Layla Pomper:

And I think if I hadn't tried that account, when I had someone come to me who was looking to build out a pretty robust training system, and they're like, yeah, we've been paying for Train You All, and it's super expensive, but it's the tool. And by being familiar with it, I think that that gives you an edge to understand, like, my first thing is always what are you actually trying to accomplish? And understanding what the tool is meant to do and where it's heading, I think it helps you talk people off of the ledge and get them to what they actually actually fundamentally want versus what they think they want or what they think they need. Because someone said something about it on Facebook or on a podcast like this, and they just went out and bought it.

Marie Poulin:

Someone said that.

Susan Boles:

Yeah. ClickUp or Notion. Like, that's No. At no point are we saying we're just saying, like, let's have a discussion about this. Nobody's telling you that you need to switch your systems.

Susan Boles:

Please don't.

Marie Poulin:

Yeah. Please don't switch your systems yet.

Layla Pomper:

I have stuck with ClickUp, and I'm in this space. I've stuck with ClickUp since I found it when it was in one point o.

Susan Boles:

And the

Layla Pomper:

reason yeah. And I think I think one thing for me at least when I'm deciding to switch or not switch, I think you have to look at software as evolutions, and you're you're investing in a team who's building the product team. It's like your people. They're your outsourced tech team. And so looking at the road map of where a tool is going, I mean, you're along for the ride in my mind.

Layla Pomper:

And I think not liking the road map or the industry niche or the direction, that's a good reason to switch, but something that got a lot of money on paid ads, not so much.

Susan Boles:

Oh, I agree. And I actually, Trainual is a great example. I have a real hard time with people that are documenting processes outside of the system where they are executing the processes. Like, to me, we'll be like, we need SOPs. I'm like, how about you just set up your task tool so that it has the SOPs in it because nobody is gonna look at your Word doc about how this is supposed to happen except when they start out.

Susan Boles:

Like, take your SOPs and make them actionable. Make them put them where where they live.

Layla Pomper:

You don't need a digital dusty binder.

Marie Poulin:

Yes.

Susan Boles:

Yes. That is literally the best definition of, like, the trainual or

Layla Pomper:

No. It's trainual.

Susan Boles:

What is, Process Street is another kind of similar product that a lot of people do, that it becomes literally that digital dusty binder that lives outside of where people are actually doing their work.

Marie Poulin:

It's almost overengineered. Right? It's

Layla Pomper:

Yes.

Susan Boles:

And even like, I haven't found a great use case. Even for, like, really big companies, I'm still like, wouldn't it be better where, you know, your other stuff is? Like, maybe

Layla Pomper:

I have used Process Street. I have to confess. I feel like I'm coming up into a crime here.

Susan Boles:

I have

Layla Pomper:

had one use case. Right?

Susan Boles:

Tell me the use case.

Layla Pomper:

So I was working with a nonprofit who was a branch of a larger national organization, so they couldn't control or get data in or out of their main systems for anything. Mhmm. But all they did, the only task that was taking up their entire admin's full week was and they had one paid staff person. So, like, it was they needed the time back, was sending emails. And so that's the only automated task that comes out of Process Street is sending emails that are scripted with dynamic fields based on a process.

Layla Pomper:

And so I did actually Interesting. I gotta confess. That was a pretty good use case of Process Street, and they're able to do it on the free plan, which is pretty cool. Amazing. Yeah.

Layla Pomper:

That's my guilty secret.

Marie Poulin:

No. I think that's great. No.

Susan Boles:

I think, like, the software is there for a reason, and there are really good use cases for all of the tools that we're talking about.

Marie Poulin:

Yeah.

Susan Boles:

There are really good use cases for Coda or for Roam or for like, all of these things have use cases where that is actually the specific best tool for the thing that you're trying to do. And that's really what we're what we're talking about is find the best tool for what you're actually trying to accomplish, whether that's managing your entire workflow or, you know, one single process that this is the best tool for that.

Marie Poulin:

Yep.

Susan Boles:

So let's say that folks are going to pick a system, double down on it, and really get it working well. What cool things are you guys doing in either Notion or ClickUp that have really changed how productive or focused you're able to be?

Marie Poulin:

Yeah. I can speak to my my personal experience is a lot of the personal processes that connect with the business processes, because I'm a solo show. And so all of my business and personal stuff is in there. And so daily journaling, weekly agenda, monthly, I guess you could say a monthly agenda, but all of those are connected to my sales databases. So I can see on a monthly, weekly, daily basis, how much revenue I'm earning.

Marie Poulin:

In the same place that I'm also keeping track of like, how was I feeling that day? How productive was I that day? What was going on? My daily tasks. And so for me, it's the integration of so many different data points.

Marie Poulin:

What was I reading that day? What was I reading that week? I can zoom in or zoom out at any scale and see that data at any level. A lot of that's done through automated rollups. So it'll be like, pull the data from this field, like relational fields or whatever.

Marie Poulin:

And so I personally just love being able to see the data to see and to see whatever data I want to in a single instance. Right? Like, I can have a filtered view. That's like, just show me my, my progress or just show me my moods. Just show me my photo of the day.

Marie Poulin:

Right. I can really just kind of see what I wanna see. I can visualize my goals and kind of see how far along I am in an automated fashion. Like there's just so much be, I think the data is so beautiful and it has actually made me more mindful of where my time is going, how I'm feeling day to day, and that impacts my business. So I just, again, love being able to see all of that in one beautiful place that actually looks visually appealing to me.

Susan Boles:

How about you, Leila?

Layla Pomper:

Yeah. Totally opposite. I love it. I love it. I would go crazy if my journal was right next to all the things I had to do.

Layla Pomper:

But, like, I I'm listening to this. I'm like, okay. Yeah. And I think that's that's a lot of what I associate notion with, and that makes sense why it doesn't work for how I work. I would say if there's one thing that I've really changed with, I think, ClickUp.

Layla Pomper:

Right? I'm gonna use that as the example of how I've been using that to kinda make my life a little bit easier. I stay pretty up on what's coming out next in ClickUp, and I know automations are coming out very soon and Can't wait. I'm

Susan Boles:

so impatient.

Layla Pomper:

It's gonna be so good. Zaps in ClickUp. What? But I think the number one thing that I've really, been using that's been really helpful is not getting all of my stuff in one place, but all of my client stuff in one place. So I admit, like, I'm not using Airtable currently.

Layla Pomper:

I'm still using Google Sheets because I haven't found you know, it just hasn't been justified for me. But I have, been setting up a client portal kind of system within ClickUp. So now that there's public sharing using the embed view, so just like in, Notion, you can have data points from all over the place pull in. ClickUp's now moving towards that kind of, platform approach to where you can embed a view from your Dubsado client portal. You can embed your invoice from here.

Layla Pomper:

You can embed your data spreadsheet from here. Like, I've embedded, I think, my my knowledge base, embedded my billings platform, embedded all these things into what is a task space or a task folder, and it shared with my client. And I think that's I haven't really fully gone all the way into it yet, but I see this being the replacement of so many other tools. Sorry, Dubsado. As I'm moving forward to just kind of condense by just embedding rather than needing to have all these different places that clients have to go.

Layla Pomper:

Yep.

Susan Boles:

Yeah. I've done a lot of the embedding as well, particularly, like, if it's a Google Sheet and it's something that's always gonna be a Google Sheet, like, just being able to put the link there to be like, oh, here it is. I don't have to go look for it has been really helpful. For me, the thing that I have started to do is kind of take the it was very heavily influenced by, Marie, your daily journal. And, Tara McMullen, it has been sharing a lot about her leadership dashboard, and I have taken those 2 and kind of, applied them in ClickUp.

Susan Boles:

So I now have a daily journal using, like, custom fields, to have, like, what's my mood and, how much sleep did I get and

Layla Pomper:

That dashboard must be scary.

Susan Boles:

Those so those little bits, like, it's in its separate area that every day, like, I have a recurring task that pops up. That's my journal. And also the thing that I took from Tara's is that she I always kind of struggled as a, founder, particularly like a solo person, of getting my annual, my quarterly, my, monthly plans tied into the actual tasks Yeah. In my, system. And so what I've kind of done is do that.

Susan Boles:

So Tara has, like, here's your quarterly plan. Here's what's gonna happen every quarter, every month, every, so I now have it down to quarter, month, and week so that I can use that kind of visual drop box that, Notion allows you to do where you're like, I'm gonna put this thing here and this thing here and this thing here. All of those are kind of set up in my, ClickUp now to replicate kind of that personal thing that ties my goals back to what am I doing that really helped me figure out, like, what am I supposed to do next? What is the next most important thing to do? And so that's been really interesting.

Susan Boles:

I've actually been watching a ton of Notion videos and then, like, going, oh, that's really because people are being very, they're sharing a lot about not necessarily about Notion, but about how they work. Oh, I know that's a lot of hard work. To like, and and nobody's really doing that with other tools. Like, it's it's a project management tool that people are sharing the behind the scenes of how their business works and how how their In

Layla Pomper:

a bullet journal. Yeah.

Susan Boles:

Yeah. Like, how their daily process works, and there's so many, applications of that, and people are sharing that in the Notion community kind of at large that I'm so enjoying watching people, what they're doing in Notion, because that's how they're sharing it, but applying that to like, you can apply a lot of that to other project management tools.

Marie Poulin:

Absolutely.

Susan Boles:

And so I've been doing a lot of a lot of that that has been really interesting, taking the pieces that are really useful from that and figuring out how to put it in ClickUp and make it useful. So is there anything you guys think we should talk about that we haven't touched on already? Software, project management, anything in there?

Marie Poulin:

Keep talking.

Layla Pomper:

I've got one. Yeah.

Marie Poulin:

Yeah. Go for it.

Layla Pomper:

Please don't ask Facebook which one you should use.

Susan Boles:

Yes. Also true. Yes.

Marie Poulin:

Oh, yes.

Layla Pomper:

Oh, man. Because I feel like what even just what this conversation shows is, like, it's the meant like, I think we use system and software as synonyms, which is weird because We we do

Susan Boles:

use them.

Layla Pomper:

System for organizing, I feel like I forget who we were just talking about, but his course being

Susan Boles:

go. Yeah.

Layla Pomper:

You know, system yeah. System agnostic. And so when people are like, which which tool should I use every time I'm commenting back, like, what do you need?

Susan Boles:

What are you doing?

Marie Poulin:

And how does your brain work? Right? Like you were saying, like, you like, I'm more visual or needed to to show in this way. And you're like, oh, that that would be that would cause me great anxiety. And so, you know, you probably do the same thing when you're talking to your clients of, like, what do you need to see on a daily basis?

Marie Poulin:

What are your daily and weekly routines look like? And then let's design your systems, your processes to reflect the way your brain works to not add anxiety

Susan Boles:

Mhmm.

Marie Poulin:

But to reduce it. And so I think there is an element of like human learning and that, like, how do you as a human show up in the world and need to see your data because there's no point in, like, chucking all of these things at you that are just gonna cause, you know, system override, system corruption?

Susan Boles:

Well, and the thing Yeah. The thing that I love about systems like ClickUp or, or Notion is that the person using it has a little bit of control about how they see the information. Yeah. So, like, when you're looking at implementing tools for your team, some of it is how do you think? But maybe your team doesn't think the same way, and so the tool that works really well for you, if it's something really you know, say you're picking between Asana and Trello.

Susan Boles:

Those are pretty like, they work the way they work. They're not super flexible in terms of how you view the data or how you're, like, controlling the information, and something that I think that ClickUp and Notion do really well is give the user flexibility to take the data that's in the system and view it in a way that works for them too so you're not as constrained by how your brain works or how your project manager's brain works. It can work well for everybody that has to use it.

Marie Poulin:

Hit the nail on the head. Yep.

Susan Boles:

Alright. Anything else we should touch on before we wrap up here?

Marie Poulin:

I mean, I could nerd out about systems in 12 hours. Yeah.

Susan Boles:

I'm like, we could talk about this forever.

Layla Pomper:

Hours, John.

Susan Boles:

So, thank you both so much for being here today. Marie, if folks want to, connect with you or learn more about Notion, where can they do that?

Marie Poulin:

Yeah. They can find me at mariepoulin.com. I'm also on Twitter at mariepoulin, and you can probably find me on YouTube, mariepoulin. Mariepoulinplus.

Susan Boles:

Notion videos, like, if you're a Notion person, go watch the Notion videos. Even if you're not and you're just a workflow person, like, go check them out because they're fabulous. Thank you. I love them. Leila, how about you?

Susan Boles:

How can folks find you?

Layla Pomper:

Yeah. So you'll probably find me under my business info. So processdriven.co, no hyphen, just one long beautiful word on Instagram, Facebook, online, whatever. It's pretty much just me, so I would love to chat with anyone who has questions about, you know, ClickUp or also figuring out what your brain actually works with.

Susan Boles:

Awesome. Thank you so much, ladies, for being here. As you heard in our discussion, each of us has a different approach to how we set up our software and why we chose the particular software tool that we did. But what you should have also taken away was how important it is for whatever software tool you pick to work with your brain. How you think about projects and what kinds of projects and tasks make up the work you do will heavily influence how you'll get along with a particular project management tool or really any software you use to run your business.

Susan Boles:

Our goal here wasn't to convince you to use Notion or ClickUp or any other specific tool, but to get you to think critically about why you picked the project management software you did and if it's still serving you. Or if maybe you'd be better off taking a step back and having a look at the software that makes up the foundation of your business and maybe updating some of your tools to better serve the business you're running now. And if you're thinking about how to make your business model resilient, efficient, and financially stable right now, you're not alone. Up until a few weeks ago, the conversations I had about examining your money and smoothing out your operating systems were all about growth. My clients and I looked at how they could set themselves up for success as they onboarded more clients and watch their bank accounts grow.

Susan Boles:

But now I'm having a lot more conversations about stability. Business owners like you are asking how to weather uncertainty while setting the stage for sustainable growth over time. The good news? The work is the same. The work you've been doing or thinking about doing to prepare your business for growth is the same work you need to do to shore up your foundations when things are tight.

Susan Boles:

I'd love to help you run a leaner, more efficient, more resilient business that allows you to save money while maintaining profitability. In just 1 week, I'll create your custom action plan for navigating uncertainty beyond that financial padding you keep in the bank. I'll share my recommendations for your software, finances, people, operations, and more. Wanna find out more? Go to scale spark dot c o slash action plan or shoot me an email at susan@scale spark dot c o to schedule a free call today.

Susan Boles:

Next week, I'll be talking to Sean McMullen of Yellow House Media. We're going to talk about when you do really need a project manager and when you could save some money and management headache by just not having project managers as part of your team. So we're gonna dig into the question of when do you need a project manager? So make sure you hit subscribe in your favorite podcast player so you don't miss that episode. Break the Ceiling is produced by Yellow House Media.

Susan Boles:

Our production coordinator is Sean McMullen. This episode is edited by Marty Seefeld with production assistance by Kristen Runbeck.