WEBVTT NOTE This file was generated by Descript 00:00:05.039 --> 00:00:06.279 CJ: Welcome to build and learn. 00:00:06.289 --> 00:00:07.149 My name is CJ. 00:00:07.243 --> 00:00:09.693 Colin: And I'm Collin, and we're back to catch up. 00:00:09.963 --> 00:00:10.883 How's it going, CJ? 00:00:11.293 --> 00:00:12.193 CJ: It's pretty good. 00:00:12.583 --> 00:00:17.643 We usually record sort of midday, and for me this is a little bit later in 00:00:17.643 --> 00:00:22.753 the afternoon, so yeah, starting to wind down for the evening, and since 00:00:22.753 --> 00:00:27.393 it's the middle of winter, it is pitch black outside, which is very, a very 00:00:27.493 --> 00:00:29.243 common thing in New England apparently. 00:00:29.493 --> 00:00:32.703 Colin: Yeah, I love that my camera is daytime, and yours is nighttime. 00:00:32.813 --> 00:00:37.173 CJ: Yeah, it looks like, yeah, you look fresh faced and bushy tailed 00:00:37.173 --> 00:00:38.623 and ready to rock for the day. 00:00:38.623 --> 00:00:40.923 Colin: I do have two very large Elgato 00:00:41.123 --> 00:00:42.298 CJ: lights. 00:00:42.678 --> 00:00:43.008 Oh, okay. 00:00:43.008 --> 00:00:43.648 maybe that's it. 00:00:43.658 --> 00:00:44.698 You've got great lighting. 00:00:45.018 --> 00:00:45.328 Yeah. 00:00:45.468 --> 00:00:45.908 Colin: a little bit. 00:00:46.108 --> 00:00:49.058 CJ: Is that window that's in view of your camera? 00:00:49.388 --> 00:00:50.728 That's an actual window, right? 00:00:51.158 --> 00:00:51.688 Colin: This thing? 00:00:51.738 --> 00:00:52.618 CJ: the one on the other side. 00:00:52.693 --> 00:00:53.393 Oh, I 00:00:53.558 --> 00:00:53.978 Colin: Oh, I see. 00:00:53.988 --> 00:00:55.658 yeah, there's a window this way. 00:00:55.713 --> 00:00:58.163 CJ: not like a fake, faux light thing. 00:00:58.163 --> 00:00:58.863 No, okay, 00:00:59.213 --> 00:01:02.143 Colin: Yeah, and this is not going to translate well to podcasting, but 00:01:02.143 --> 00:01:05.303 these little things behind me are a project that I haven't finished yet. 00:01:05.893 --> 00:01:07.393 we're going to make that door disappear. 00:01:07.593 --> 00:01:10.953 CJ: yeah, it looks like maybe some sort of curtains or something, like 00:01:11.063 --> 00:01:13.603 Colin: they're actually like sound absorbing, wood panels. 00:01:13.673 --> 00:01:15.453 So they're like walnut. 00:01:15.823 --> 00:01:18.073 Fronts with sound absorbing on the back. 00:01:18.603 --> 00:01:21.543 You, I think you see them in all the desk setups and all the YouTube. 00:01:21.593 --> 00:01:25.323 the new YouTube thing these days, but I'm also a sucker for them. 00:01:25.413 --> 00:01:27.463 It's very I don't know, Whiskey Room 00:01:27.663 --> 00:01:32.673 CJ: I don't know, whiskey room vibes. 00:01:32.673 --> 00:01:36.848 Yeah, and it's funny because 00:01:37.103 --> 00:01:37.483 Colin: Yeah. 00:01:37.613 --> 00:01:39.943 and it's funny because this room when I'm on my work calls, people 00:01:39.943 --> 00:01:41.173 are like, what room are you in? 00:01:41.183 --> 00:01:42.933 Because there's actually three doors behind me. 00:01:43.563 --> 00:01:46.493 And so everyone's we don't even understand why this room could even be 00:01:46.493 --> 00:01:50.683 in your house that you have three doors because one goes to an HVAC, one goes 00:01:50.683 --> 00:01:52.513 to a patio and one goes to the hallway. 00:01:52.853 --> 00:02:11.513 CJ: HVAC, one goes to a patio, and one goes to the hallway. 00:02:11.803 --> 00:02:16.923 Roaring and so I put all these giant blankets on the wall on the other side 00:02:16.923 --> 00:02:22.433 of the wall that are like absorbing all of that roar And it helped a ton 00:02:22.593 --> 00:02:27.613 with just like sound quality But I also fight with the piano which is like 00:02:27.613 --> 00:02:31.153 right above me So the kids will be like doing their piano lesson mid meeting 00:02:31.293 --> 00:02:33.423 or whatever and yeah, it's interesting 00:02:33.913 --> 00:02:34.083 Colin: Yeah. 00:02:34.083 --> 00:02:36.353 People like moving blankets because they're wool. 00:02:36.403 --> 00:02:36.413 CJ: I 00:02:36.488 --> 00:02:38.458 Colin: picked up like a target weighted blanket. 00:02:38.458 --> 00:02:41.938 It's like a 50 pound blanket that I have just pinned to this other wall. 00:02:42.568 --> 00:02:45.758 a lot, I mean it doesn't look pretty, but it's cheaper than a lot of the 00:02:45.768 --> 00:02:47.668 sound treatment stuff out there. 00:02:47.693 --> 00:02:47.903 CJ: there. 00:02:48.473 --> 00:02:50.543 Yeah, mine are just giant moving blankets. 00:02:50.643 --> 00:02:54.223 They're just like two huge moving blankets that are, yeah, tacked up on the wall. 00:02:54.738 --> 00:02:54.968 Colin: Yeah. 00:02:54.968 --> 00:02:58.728 Cause these things are cool behind me, but they're like, I don't know, 300 00:02:58.738 --> 00:03:01.028 for two or two to four of them I think. 00:03:01.028 --> 00:03:02.728 And this blanket was like 20 bucks. 00:03:02.728 --> 00:03:06.008 So it's easy to spend money in AV stuff for sure. 00:03:06.308 --> 00:03:10.728 CJ: West Boss, did like a whole series of videos about how he built out his 00:03:10.733 --> 00:03:15.828 office and got very technical about how sound transfers between things 00:03:15.833 --> 00:03:19.338 and, buffering, like even the wires in the walls and stuff like that. 00:03:19.338 --> 00:03:20.358 It's whoa, that's, 00:03:20.883 --> 00:03:23.173 Colin: We should get him on for a show just on that because I think 00:03:23.173 --> 00:03:25.153 the three of us have done a lot 00:03:25.778 --> 00:03:29.488 CJ: Yeah, just trying to like soundproof things is interesting. 00:03:29.688 --> 00:03:31.618 so I posted on Twitter the other day. 00:03:31.898 --> 00:03:36.978 one of my sons is in swim team once, once or twice a week. 00:03:37.038 --> 00:03:41.128 And the other, my other son is at home, didn't want to do swim team. 00:03:41.128 --> 00:03:42.498 And we were trying to figure out like what. 00:03:42.988 --> 00:03:47.168 What kind of activity could we do that would be interesting, 00:03:47.168 --> 00:03:49.858 engaging, and like enriching for him? 00:03:49.908 --> 00:03:55.188 And he loves telling people the news, just like anything that he learns 00:03:55.188 --> 00:03:56.458 about that he finds interesting. 00:03:56.458 --> 00:03:59.538 He'll just, as soon as he learns it, he has to run around and tell people. 00:03:59.538 --> 00:04:03.478 And so I wanted to start teaching him all these different tools for journalism, and 00:04:03.478 --> 00:04:06.718 just like how to go and talk to people. 00:04:07.053 --> 00:04:10.583 on the internet through podcasting or through video or through blogging. 00:04:10.623 --> 00:04:14.543 And so I put together this super short little course on Google 00:04:14.543 --> 00:04:19.253 Classroom where there's all of these little assignments for him to go 00:04:19.253 --> 00:04:21.313 through and build out a podcast. 00:04:21.513 --> 00:04:26.273 And so it's make a title and make a cover art and come up with a description 00:04:26.273 --> 00:04:30.673 and come up with an audience and then I followed along with, Descript's 00:04:30.833 --> 00:04:34.033 how to start a podcast flow, but then I boiled it down to what would 00:04:34.033 --> 00:04:35.333 this mean for a fourth grader? 00:04:35.753 --> 00:04:39.613 And what is this what kind of like stuff can we also do with AI? 00:04:39.623 --> 00:04:41.933 So really awesome tools out now. 00:04:41.943 --> 00:04:46.153 I don't know if you've seen, Google's like music effects labs things. 00:04:46.183 --> 00:04:52.683 You can do text to music so you can GPT generate a song basically that they 00:04:52.683 --> 00:04:54.943 can like use in his intros or whatever. 00:04:54.943 --> 00:04:59.663 So he's generated some intro and outro music and, started 00:04:59.673 --> 00:05:00.673 doing some recording today. 00:05:00.673 --> 00:05:03.613 So it's been really cool to watch him experiment with that and fun 00:05:03.613 --> 00:05:04.893 to just share what I've learned. 00:05:05.273 --> 00:05:07.983 Colin: Podcasting is such a good thing for anyone to play with. 00:05:07.983 --> 00:05:10.063 Cause you gotta, you get to just play with audio. 00:05:10.063 --> 00:05:11.713 You have to think about what you're going to call it. 00:05:11.713 --> 00:05:15.733 You get to write a little bit, get to do the description, the graphics. 00:05:16.103 --> 00:05:17.183 it's a pretty good project. 00:05:17.348 --> 00:05:17.608 CJ: project. 00:05:17.608 --> 00:05:18.448 Yeah, it's fun. 00:05:18.498 --> 00:05:22.538 once it's up and live, I'll plug it in a future episode so you can go 00:05:22.588 --> 00:05:28.598 listen, yeah, I think it'll be about gaming and Pokemon and stuff that he's 00:05:28.598 --> 00:05:30.058 interested in, so it should be good. 00:05:30.258 --> 00:05:31.268 Colin: I think that's the way 00:05:31.498 --> 00:05:38.264 CJ: all podcasts start. 00:05:38.264 --> 00:05:40.520 Tell 00:05:40.538 --> 00:05:42.568 Colin: this other tweet that you had. 00:05:42.628 --> 00:05:46.368 You were looking for, kinda like non technical co founder type 00:05:46.786 --> 00:05:58.063 CJ: other tweet that you had. 00:05:58.263 --> 00:06:03.673 I found a website called something like dev meets marketer or something 00:06:03.673 --> 00:06:07.933 like that, or dev meets sales, where it's At the time it was like, okay, 00:06:07.933 --> 00:06:11.593 Cupid for founders where you're do you know, founder dating almost? 00:06:11.593 --> 00:06:15.343 And like founder match, or like Tinder for founders. 00:06:15.493 --> 00:06:19.783 And I was just curious, like how people are finding co founders because oftentimes 00:06:19.783 --> 00:06:24.513 you hear from YC or you hear from venture capitalists that they want to invest in 00:06:24.513 --> 00:06:26.433 companies where there's multiple founders. 00:06:26.533 --> 00:06:28.953 I'm like, how are people finding who they're working with? 00:06:28.953 --> 00:06:31.703 so that was the first layer and the second layer was like, it's the new 00:06:31.703 --> 00:06:35.353 year and I've got a million ideas and things that I want to build and, In the 00:06:35.353 --> 00:06:39.313 past, a lot of stuff, I try to get it off the ground by myself and I think it 00:06:39.313 --> 00:06:43.043 would work much better if there were, someone by my side with complimentary 00:06:43.043 --> 00:06:47.303 skills, just like helping hack and promote and, mostly just like marketing 00:06:47.303 --> 00:06:51.053 and sales and talking to customers and validating different ideas and telling me 00:06:51.053 --> 00:06:54.243 like, that's stupid, don't go down that path or Hey, that's like a good idea. 00:06:54.243 --> 00:06:59.023 Or just being a separate, set of eyes and some, Yeah, I don't know. 00:06:59.033 --> 00:07:01.233 Some interesting things and conversations fell out of it. 00:07:01.233 --> 00:07:05.243 But, one thing that interests me about this process is that 00:07:05.243 --> 00:07:06.503 it is very much like dating. 00:07:06.503 --> 00:07:09.003 You can't just find someone on the street and say Hey, we 00:07:09.003 --> 00:07:10.553 should be like co founders. 00:07:10.553 --> 00:07:14.053 Let's go co found something like oftentimes at hackathons, right? 00:07:14.053 --> 00:07:17.653 You meet up just like random people and you try to get something off the ground 00:07:17.653 --> 00:07:19.303 in the weekend for startup weekend. 00:07:19.333 --> 00:07:23.393 But, I think there's a lot of like compatibility and personality 00:07:23.433 --> 00:07:25.653 type situations that go into this. 00:07:25.703 --> 00:07:26.043 I don't know. 00:07:26.373 --> 00:07:31.063 When you did CloudSnap, how many co founders were part of that? 00:07:31.448 --> 00:07:35.368 Colin: there was just two of us to start with and at the time I was the non 00:07:35.368 --> 00:07:42.148 technical but more technical than most co founders so I kinda took on the CEO role. 00:07:42.148 --> 00:07:46.498 And then Chris took the CTO role cause he was definitely more technical than I was. 00:07:47.028 --> 00:07:50.088 and that did mean I rarely wrote code. 00:07:50.088 --> 00:07:52.908 Like I was reviewing things and doing a lot of prototyping more. 00:07:52.908 --> 00:07:56.338 I was more PM going out and talking to customers, trying to make sure 00:07:56.338 --> 00:08:00.698 that we had something that people would want to use and then know that 00:08:00.698 --> 00:08:03.358 when we build something, someone actually would be there to use it. 00:08:03.898 --> 00:08:05.288 versus sometimes people. 00:08:05.493 --> 00:08:08.893 go off and build a thing for years without ever showing it to anybody. 00:08:08.903 --> 00:08:10.203 and that, that can be really tricky. 00:08:10.603 --> 00:08:13.383 I think what you're talking about is being a technical person looking 00:08:13.383 --> 00:08:17.153 for a non technical co founder is really interesting because I think 00:08:17.153 --> 00:08:20.463 most people in tech have probably had people come to them with ideas. 00:08:20.993 --> 00:08:23.053 And that, there's, that happens a lot. 00:08:23.123 --> 00:08:27.023 And it's really hard to go through and figure out who's really serious 00:08:27.023 --> 00:08:30.073 about it, who's put their own skin in the game, They're not going to have, 00:08:30.473 --> 00:08:33.533 I don't necessarily think they should go and try to learn how to code and, 00:08:33.863 --> 00:08:37.833 had varying degrees success at that, but they've at least figured out, 00:08:37.883 --> 00:08:39.153 they know what their strengths are. 00:08:39.153 --> 00:08:40.263 They know what they're lacking. 00:08:40.273 --> 00:08:41.613 They know what they bring to the table. 00:08:41.613 --> 00:08:44.203 And that might even be like, I have customers ready to go. 00:08:44.203 --> 00:08:47.403 If you can help me build this type of thing on the other side of it, 00:08:47.403 --> 00:08:50.793 it's okay, we know we can build lots of things as technical folks. 00:08:51.213 --> 00:08:53.163 What are those gaps that you're talking about? 00:08:53.633 --> 00:08:56.163 And even just like when you're building something, you just don't have time 00:08:56.163 --> 00:08:57.863 to also go out and talk to customers. 00:08:58.063 --> 00:09:01.623 CJ: Yeah, and I'm not saying that, technical co founders shouldn't 00:09:01.693 --> 00:09:03.343 talk to customers necessarily. 00:09:03.343 --> 00:09:05.883 I just think that, yeah, that's 00:09:06.108 --> 00:09:06.528 Colin: They need 00:09:06.543 --> 00:09:08.123 CJ: yeah, really bad at in the beginning. 00:09:08.123 --> 00:09:10.483 And, yeah, they absolutely need to. 00:09:10.483 --> 00:09:11.118 And. 00:09:11.318 --> 00:09:14.448 Going back to just like being a creator in general. 00:09:14.478 --> 00:09:19.048 I think oftentimes we're, maybe I'm speaking for myself that I'm like afraid 00:09:19.048 --> 00:09:23.598 to launch something or share it widely because I'm not super comfortable with it. 00:09:23.708 --> 00:09:26.548 And maybe when you are working with someone else, they can be 00:09:26.548 --> 00:09:27.678 like, Oh yeah, that's totally fine. 00:09:27.678 --> 00:09:31.518 Just like ship that and let's get some eyeballs on it and start getting feedback. 00:09:31.528 --> 00:09:34.098 And maybe they're more comfortable sharing it because it's not like 00:09:34.098 --> 00:09:35.898 their own creation, in a way. 00:09:35.928 --> 00:09:37.758 And so it gives them a little bit more 00:09:37.838 --> 00:09:39.658 Colin: Having that divide helps. 00:09:39.658 --> 00:09:42.668 It's like a lot of people don't like to edit their own sounds and their 00:09:42.668 --> 00:09:44.148 own audio and podcasts and stuff. 00:09:44.598 --> 00:09:45.458 And it's it sounded great. 00:09:45.468 --> 00:09:46.918 And you're like, Oh, I can't do this. 00:09:47.478 --> 00:09:48.898 but what you're talking about is very true. 00:09:48.898 --> 00:09:53.228 Like YC and Techstars and a lot of these folks, they almost always look 00:09:53.228 --> 00:09:54.878 for people to have a co founder. 00:09:55.338 --> 00:09:58.598 Because their argument is, if you can't even convince one person to 00:09:58.598 --> 00:10:02.408 come along on this journey, like, why would we put money into it? 00:10:02.423 --> 00:10:02.573 CJ: it? 00:10:02.828 --> 00:10:07.018 Colin: but at the same time If you can pull off everything and even better 00:10:07.018 --> 00:10:09.148 if you could do it without investment. 00:10:09.838 --> 00:10:13.028 I'm becoming more and more of the don't go the VC route. 00:10:13.448 --> 00:10:17.328 more of the indie hacker bootstrapped approach but, if you're going to be doing 00:10:17.328 --> 00:10:21.458 that then it does help to have someone else who's, the other side of that coin. 00:10:21.898 --> 00:10:23.958 with the coworking space it's a little bit different. 00:10:24.628 --> 00:10:29.318 But myself and the other owners are a good, push and pull on, I get a little 00:10:29.318 --> 00:10:32.398 excited about something and then they bring me back to earth, which can help. 00:10:32.538 --> 00:10:35.518 So we want to be pushing forward, but it's always good to have a little 00:10:35.518 --> 00:10:39.388 bit of tension on that line so that we don't just fly off into space. 00:10:39.738 --> 00:10:40.128 CJ: Yeah. 00:10:40.328 --> 00:10:44.713 The other thing that has been on my mind too is just in general, that co-founder 00:10:44.713 --> 00:10:50.023 fit, like how do you find someone who has a personality that gels well with yours, 00:10:50.053 --> 00:10:55.548 and where you almost kinda have to have Side gig values aligned with a vision 00:10:55.548 --> 00:11:00.588 that's aligned for okay, we're going to work on this with, nights and weekends 00:11:00.588 --> 00:11:03.718 with no payoff for, maybe even years. 00:11:03.768 --> 00:11:08.278 And then once it gets off the ground, maybe we go full time or I don't 00:11:08.278 --> 00:11:08.978 know, like, you know what I mean? 00:11:08.978 --> 00:11:13.748 Like, and trying to find someone who, yeah, shares those values and also can get 00:11:13.748 --> 00:11:17.088 excited about the same things that you're excited about is, yeah, it's interesting. 00:11:17.288 --> 00:11:17.538 Colin: Yeah. 00:11:17.538 --> 00:11:21.428 There's an episode that we can link to from the Hammerstone. 00:11:21.858 --> 00:11:26.908 Dev podcast, and Hammerstone was a team of Aaron Francis, who we've mentioned before. 00:11:27.398 --> 00:11:32.638 And, Colleen, I am blanking on her last name right now, but they have chosen 00:11:32.638 --> 00:11:37.948 to separate and Colleen's going forward with Hello Query and Aaron's focusing 00:11:37.948 --> 00:11:40.918 on the things that he was doing at PlanetScale and some of his other stuff. 00:11:41.408 --> 00:11:43.668 And it's a really good conversation because It's them having a good 00:11:43.678 --> 00:11:47.608 breakup on a podcast they finally are starting to feel that like 00:11:47.608 --> 00:11:51.628 customer fit with their product, but it's not the end of the journey. 00:11:51.628 --> 00:11:52.698 It's the very beginning. 00:11:52.728 --> 00:11:58.208 that little bit of product market fit means there is going to be months, years 00:11:58.268 --> 00:12:02.608 of work to be done, nights, weekends, whatever that looks like, especially 00:12:02.608 --> 00:12:04.248 with families and things like that. 00:12:04.768 --> 00:12:06.328 And Aaron just kind of like, I. 00:12:06.433 --> 00:12:07.593 Can't do that right now. 00:12:07.623 --> 00:12:09.653 And it's also very good to be real about that. 00:12:09.653 --> 00:12:12.813 Cause sometimes co founders will take their other co founders for a ride 00:12:12.823 --> 00:12:16.423 when they aren't being truthful about how much time and space do you have in 00:12:16.423 --> 00:12:20.053 your life for these kinds of projects, which is, it's good to be open about. 00:12:20.123 --> 00:12:20.243 CJ: about. 00:12:20.763 --> 00:12:24.893 There are a lot of really awkward and uncomfortable conversations 00:12:24.893 --> 00:12:26.843 that happen at that early stage. 00:12:27.533 --> 00:12:33.173 Even After like a startup weekend hackathon, I've had people like, pushing 00:12:33.173 --> 00:12:34.393 really hard in certain directions. 00:12:34.393 --> 00:12:37.153 I'm like, yo, we just worked on this for 48 hours. 00:12:37.153 --> 00:12:38.073 I don't care. 00:12:38.293 --> 00:12:39.343 do what you want with it. 00:12:39.543 --> 00:12:39.963 Colin: Yeah. 00:12:40.223 --> 00:12:41.493 I start off weekend. 00:12:41.868 --> 00:12:42.848 Is an interesting one. 00:12:42.848 --> 00:12:45.328 I haven't seen those as much lately. 00:12:45.748 --> 00:12:49.278 I don't know if they've died off or just gotten less popular, if you win, 00:12:49.278 --> 00:12:52.488 I've fallen into it where we won one of the startup weekends and it was 00:12:52.488 --> 00:12:53.908 like, okay, we're going to try this. 00:12:53.908 --> 00:12:57.528 And we took a little bit of seed money and we did not get very far. 00:12:57.728 --> 00:13:01.438 But it's hard because, those, that team was put together on a weekend and they 00:13:01.438 --> 00:13:03.008 all happen to be in the same event. 00:13:03.278 --> 00:13:05.578 There was a little bit more intent there, rather than 00:13:05.578 --> 00:13:06.978 meeting someone at a Starbucks. 00:13:07.718 --> 00:13:11.338 but there's a guy who reached out to us, I think it was just through Twitter and 00:13:11.338 --> 00:13:14.108 the dev meetup, but he runs remotejobs. 00:13:14.108 --> 00:13:14.418 com. 00:13:14.998 --> 00:13:18.918 And He's the kind of person or he's like the non technical co founder, 00:13:18.918 --> 00:13:20.238 but he's teaching himself how to code. 00:13:20.238 --> 00:13:23.548 and he's hacking and doing the, using the templates that are out there, 00:13:23.548 --> 00:13:25.408 using the job boards and stuff. 00:13:25.408 --> 00:13:29.928 And he's built himself that nomadic, remote, lifestyle that a 00:13:29.928 --> 00:13:31.248 lot of people like to talk about. 00:13:32.008 --> 00:13:33.748 and I think he's doing that without co founders. 00:13:33.748 --> 00:13:36.198 So it really depends on how much space you have. 00:13:36.703 --> 00:13:39.723 In your life and all of that because, I could try to make the 00:13:39.723 --> 00:13:43.223 awkward segue here of what happens when you take too much money 00:13:43.368 --> 00:13:44.258 CJ: and 00:13:44.273 --> 00:13:45.213 Colin: grow too big. 00:13:45.318 --> 00:13:46.330 CJ: there's really 00:13:46.363 --> 00:13:49.863 Colin: there's a really good Silicon Valley, link that we'll put in the 00:13:49.863 --> 00:13:53.833 show notes too, but yeah, this week has been a rough week for tech layoffs. 00:13:53.883 --> 00:13:57.768 I think especially for companies that grew a lot in 2020, 2021. 00:13:57.818 --> 00:14:04.658 this week we've got, what, Twitch, Google, Amazon, Unity, and then, we 00:14:04.658 --> 00:14:08.628 just actually had layoffs today at Discord, which I can't talk too much 00:14:08.628 --> 00:14:14.318 about, but, by the time this comes out, it'll be almost a month behind us now. 00:14:14.338 --> 00:14:18.105 rifts across the board, teams getting smaller, all that kind of stuff. 00:14:18.155 --> 00:14:18.720 CJ: that kind of stuff. 00:14:18.990 --> 00:14:22.745 Yeah, I thought, the bleeding was over and that teams did 00:14:22.745 --> 00:14:26.845 their reset in 2023 and that. 00:14:27.305 --> 00:14:31.015 we were going to go into 2024 with nice, healthy organizations, 00:14:31.025 --> 00:14:32.675 but totally not the case. 00:14:33.305 --> 00:14:36.905 And I don't know, yeah, I don't know what the deal is or how 00:14:36.905 --> 00:14:38.005 long this is going to last. 00:14:38.015 --> 00:14:40.455 It's a huge bummer, for everyone. 00:14:40.505 --> 00:14:44.695 I guess the other, piece of this too is that, like, how much is 00:14:44.725 --> 00:14:47.365 AI, impacting these jobs, right? 00:14:47.415 --> 00:14:51.515 I also, outside of These sort of like tech specific jobs. 00:14:51.545 --> 00:14:55.845 I also saw a bunch of people getting laid off from like movie studios and animation 00:14:55.845 --> 00:14:59.395 studios where they're like, yeah, we're not gonna need any animators anymore 00:14:59.395 --> 00:15:01.735 We're just gonna use like AI from now on. 00:15:02.415 --> 00:15:02.505 It's 00:15:02.535 --> 00:15:06.255 Colin: Yeah, this role this week has been pretty content focused. 00:15:06.255 --> 00:15:09.235 So a lot of gaming industry, right? 00:15:09.235 --> 00:15:16.015 Unity Prime video, some Prime Studios folks So a lot and I think my friend 00:15:16.015 --> 00:15:20.245 who runs a lot of things in the tabletop RPG space Has shared that 00:15:20.245 --> 00:15:24.545 like it's flowed down where it's like gaming's been hit Tabletop things like 00:15:24.545 --> 00:15:28.655 D& D are not as popular or selling out as much as they were before. 00:15:29.065 --> 00:15:32.415 You know, there's groups like Critical Role that are doing really well, but kind 00:15:32.415 --> 00:15:34.345 of gaming, which I think is interesting. 00:15:34.345 --> 00:15:37.885 I don't know if we just gorged ourselves on content during the pandemic and 00:15:38.255 --> 00:15:41.495 everyone staffed up because of it, thinking the good times were never 00:15:41.495 --> 00:15:43.085 going to end or what the deal is. 00:15:43.185 --> 00:15:45.935 and a lot of people are upset that movies aren't doing well in 00:15:45.945 --> 00:15:47.495 the box office, but I don't know. 00:15:47.525 --> 00:15:49.405 I don't know if those are related whatsoever. 00:15:49.405 --> 00:15:53.075 I think it's just been like I'm excited to go see Dune, still in the theaters. 00:15:53.125 --> 00:15:58.315 CJ: it seems to like a lot more people are creating content. 00:15:58.316 --> 00:15:59.716 we're making this podcast, right? 00:15:59.716 --> 00:16:02.366 And there's a ton of people who are making TikTok videos and 00:16:02.366 --> 00:16:04.096 YouTube shorts and whatever. 00:16:04.126 --> 00:16:07.146 And maybe just the sheer volume of entertainment. 00:16:07.346 --> 00:16:11.576 is getting to a point where, the big studios aren't able to keep up as much. 00:16:11.576 --> 00:16:16.366 It's almost in the same way that new, newspapers mostly lost all of 00:16:16.366 --> 00:16:21.356 the wind beneath their sails when, blogging and articles became popular. 00:16:21.386 --> 00:16:21.826 I don't know. 00:16:22.046 --> 00:16:25.156 but, yeah, it's a huge bummer for anyone who's losing their job, 00:16:25.716 --> 00:16:26.316 Colin: Definitely. 00:16:26.516 --> 00:16:30.276 Yeah, if you're looking for something, we got, we'll put some links to some 00:16:30.276 --> 00:16:34.586 remote jobs and some tech job links in the show notes, because I've had a lot of 00:16:34.616 --> 00:16:40.276 people coming to me asking, what jobs I know about, somehow I've gotten that as 00:16:40.276 --> 00:16:43.946 like a reputation as the person to go to when someone's ready for another job, but 00:16:44.146 --> 00:16:48.006 CJ: view you as a connector and someone who knows about opportunity. 00:16:48.516 --> 00:16:48.806 Yep. 00:16:49.006 --> 00:16:49.206 Colin: For 00:16:49.406 --> 00:16:49.836 CJ: Yeah. 00:16:50.166 --> 00:16:54.706 so Yeah, similarly, or along the same lines, we are hiring at Craftwork 00:16:54.716 --> 00:16:59.066 still, so we've got some super promising candidates that we're talking to 00:16:59.066 --> 00:17:04.126 this week, but if you are interested in writing TypeScript or Ruby and 00:17:04.126 --> 00:17:09.936 Rails and React Native and doing some machine learning stuff, we are, yeah, 00:17:09.956 --> 00:17:13.156 we'll likely be hiring at some point when you, when you hear this later, 00:17:13.356 --> 00:17:13.876 Colin: Very cool. 00:17:14.076 --> 00:17:15.156 What are you, building this 00:17:15.229 --> 00:17:15.935 CJ: this week? 00:17:16.135 --> 00:17:17.665 Gosh, it's been a really productive week. 00:17:17.675 --> 00:17:23.565 I was sick last week and so I felt sluggish and unproductive and this 00:17:23.565 --> 00:17:26.335 week has been super productive and I'm, yeah, it feels great. 00:17:26.475 --> 00:17:28.905 a lot of it has been API integrations. 00:17:29.455 --> 00:17:33.455 One of them is with this company called Deputy, which is a platform that we 00:17:33.455 --> 00:17:35.605 use for scheduling and timesheets. 00:17:36.135 --> 00:17:39.935 it's how the crew clocks in and out and the automations we're building is 00:17:39.935 --> 00:17:44.535 so that we can tell customers which crew members are going to be coming to 00:17:44.535 --> 00:17:46.395 their house when the project happens. 00:17:46.405 --> 00:17:49.165 And we can also build out like some calendaring and 00:17:49.165 --> 00:17:51.405 scheduling tools internally. 00:17:51.405 --> 00:17:52.575 So that's been super cool. 00:17:53.355 --> 00:17:59.255 we also use a tool called Post Hog, which is for like product analytics. 00:17:59.255 --> 00:18:01.695 They actually have a kitchen sink type situation. 00:18:02.205 --> 00:18:06.595 They do, yeah, product analytics, they also do a B testing. 00:18:06.595 --> 00:18:10.655 They also do like feature flagging and then they separately have almost like a 00:18:10.675 --> 00:18:14.575 business intelligence suite where they have like data warehouse type situation. 00:18:14.575 --> 00:18:20.805 And, It's, yeah, so an interesting tool and we've been using them for tracking, 00:18:21.385 --> 00:18:26.245 like front end marketing analytics and, UTM params and things like that. 00:18:26.295 --> 00:18:31.535 And what we're doing now is piping back different project and conversion type 00:18:31.535 --> 00:18:36.125 events back into post hogs so that we can measure like the full pipeline and 00:18:36.135 --> 00:18:40.725 start to get some proper attribution and figure out, which marketing channels 00:18:40.725 --> 00:18:41.995 are working and which aren't and. 00:18:42.045 --> 00:18:43.125 yeah, that's been pretty interesting. 00:18:43.455 --> 00:18:43.755 So 00:18:43.955 --> 00:18:44.445 Colin: Nice. 00:18:44.855 --> 00:18:49.405 Yeah, I like Posthog because they've got all the data that you're, like, gonna want 00:18:49.435 --> 00:18:51.505 in one place so you can do feature flags, 00:18:51.735 --> 00:18:52.185 CJ: rather than 00:18:52.455 --> 00:18:55.085 Colin: trying to connect two things together and say, show this to 00:18:55.085 --> 00:18:56.295 people who've done this thing. 00:18:56.530 --> 00:18:56.800 CJ: Yeah. 00:18:56.800 --> 00:18:58.870 It's been, pretty good product so far. 00:18:58.930 --> 00:19:01.270 Another thing that's been really interesting as we're researching 00:19:01.270 --> 00:19:03.160 business intelligence tools is. 00:19:03.620 --> 00:19:08.360 How many have Jupyter Notebook style interfaces now built into them? 00:19:08.770 --> 00:19:09.690 I think we looked at hex. 00:19:09.990 --> 00:19:16.520 tech and posthog and, Supa or Meta, Metabase and a few others 00:19:16.520 --> 00:19:19.470 where it's like, Oh, you can write SQL queries and get back a table. 00:19:19.910 --> 00:19:23.440 Or you can write Python to interact with that data that was 00:19:23.440 --> 00:19:24.990 just in like the previous cell. 00:19:25.370 --> 00:19:28.130 Very cool, interactive business intelligence stuff. 00:19:28.140 --> 00:19:31.780 I haven't messed with business, like BI suites since college. 00:19:31.830 --> 00:19:34.220 like Microsoft, BI or whatever. 00:19:34.820 --> 00:19:37.140 Colin: Those ones are interesting because it's like, everyone needs 00:19:37.150 --> 00:19:40.870 one and when you get big enough, you gotta go with the big enterprise one 00:19:40.870 --> 00:19:42.190 and there's a bunch of money involved. 00:19:42.280 --> 00:19:42.880 I remember. 00:19:43.080 --> 00:19:47.550 At Strava, I think we started out using segments and they just quickly 00:19:47.550 --> 00:19:50.870 got too big for segment you still got to put that data somewhere. 00:19:51.370 --> 00:19:52.930 It doesn't get stored in segment. 00:19:52.930 --> 00:19:55.980 And so they were using something called Snowplow, which they self 00:19:55.980 --> 00:20:00.040 hosted and it's like an open source, BI tool in that vein of like 00:20:00.240 --> 00:20:01.950 customer events and things like that. 00:20:02.421 --> 00:20:03.781 All sorts these days. 00:20:03.881 --> 00:20:04.521 CJ: totally. 00:20:04.571 --> 00:20:04.801 Yeah. 00:20:04.801 --> 00:20:09.181 And it's do you want a data warehouse or do you want a visualization thing that 00:20:09.181 --> 00:20:14.751 will just let you build dashboards and charts for your existing data sources? 00:20:14.751 --> 00:20:18.551 Or do you want, yeah, these notebook tools where you can have data scientists 00:20:18.551 --> 00:20:19.701 write all these different queries. 00:20:19.701 --> 00:20:22.771 And yeah, it's definitely been a learning curve there. 00:20:22.941 --> 00:20:23.342 Yeah, 00:20:23.500 --> 00:20:26.410 Colin: Yeah, sending emails every fifth time someone does something, 00:20:26.410 --> 00:20:29.240 stuff like that, where it's oh, I don't want to keep track of that. 00:20:29.450 --> 00:20:29.890 CJ: yeah. 00:20:29.940 --> 00:20:32.930 yeah, it looks like you're working on some, some more Docs stuff. 00:20:33.610 --> 00:20:35.760 Colin: Yeah, so I'm stuck in DocsLand. 00:20:35.820 --> 00:20:39.810 mostly about things I can't talk about yet, but I can talk 00:20:40.270 --> 00:20:41.380 about what I'm trying to do. 00:20:41.450 --> 00:20:44.440 we have a thing in, we have our docs in a repo. 00:20:44.640 --> 00:20:45.700 And that's all public. 00:20:45.700 --> 00:20:47.990 So anyone can contribute to our docs today. 00:20:48.190 --> 00:20:52.080 And we have another thing that's in another repo and I have docs in there. 00:20:52.200 --> 00:20:58.110 And so I want to basically hydrate our public docs with those other docs and 00:20:58.110 --> 00:21:02.280 make sure that everything plays nicely and that we don't have like drift between. 00:21:02.480 --> 00:21:07.150 The two, so if you think of it as like an SDK type thing, how do we have 00:21:07.150 --> 00:21:10.930 versions of that, docs of that, but then we have the API docs, so very 00:21:10.930 --> 00:21:15.310 similar to when you were at Stripe, you guys had the Stripe SDKs, the API. 00:21:15.915 --> 00:21:18.545 Has versions, all that kind of stuff changes over time. 00:21:18.545 --> 00:21:21.995 So in the discord docs, we don't actually really have a good 00:21:22.005 --> 00:21:24.315 versioning system in the docs itself. 00:21:24.745 --> 00:21:26.185 It's more look at the table. 00:21:26.345 --> 00:21:27.515 What version are you on? 00:21:27.715 --> 00:21:29.145 That is what applies to you. 00:21:29.155 --> 00:21:32.295 So we aren't going to have versions anytime soon, but I'm just trying to 00:21:32.295 --> 00:21:36.415 think through, like, how do we not end up copy and pasting documentation? 00:21:36.425 --> 00:21:37.505 How do we not have drift? 00:21:37.505 --> 00:21:40.155 How do we not make it, manually corruptible? 00:21:40.165 --> 00:21:41.785 So that's what I'm working on. 00:21:41.965 --> 00:21:41.985 CJ: on. 00:21:42.155 --> 00:21:42.675 Nice. 00:21:43.305 --> 00:21:47.945 Yeah, we've been talking a lot internally about generating OpenAPI 00:21:48.055 --> 00:21:53.565 specs so that we can consume it from our React Native app and our Next. 00:21:53.565 --> 00:21:55.355 js frontends. 00:21:55.355 --> 00:22:00.685 And I've been surprised that the tooling isn't really there in Rails. 00:22:00.955 --> 00:22:05.215 There's Oh, or like to, it's not there to like automatically do it for you. 00:22:05.255 --> 00:22:08.675 I expected you could just drop in a gem and say I'm using JBuilder. 00:22:08.705 --> 00:22:11.425 And then it would just figure out all the different types and be able 00:22:11.425 --> 00:22:12.805 to build the whole spec for you. 00:22:12.805 --> 00:22:14.355 But it's not that easy. 00:22:14.405 --> 00:22:20.245 The state of the art, as far as I can tell, is you have to write tests in 00:22:20.275 --> 00:22:26.495 our spec that then will map to, the open API specs that can be generated. 00:22:26.955 --> 00:22:30.045 But in order for those to get spit out, you actually have to write the 00:22:30.045 --> 00:22:32.955 tests and we should have the tests. 00:22:33.135 --> 00:22:38.235 And I'm not discounting that in any way, but it feels like a painful 00:22:38.235 --> 00:22:42.445 way to keep them in sync is to have to constantly write tests. 00:22:42.775 --> 00:22:47.175 Colin: Do you then have to annotate the tests or do you annotate the source, 00:22:47.275 --> 00:22:51.565 the main source code for things like descriptions and labels and categories? 00:22:51.595 --> 00:22:55.255 Because that's the thing, we have an OpenAPI spec today, but we 00:22:55.255 --> 00:22:59.955 haven't finished, I think it's called tags and descriptors, right? 00:23:00.005 --> 00:23:04.855 we use one of the tools to generate, CLI, but because there's no categories 00:23:04.855 --> 00:23:07.775 and everything, it's here's all the functions you could possibly call. 00:23:08.245 --> 00:23:10.645 And so we're going to be adding tags, we're going to be adding descriptions 00:23:10.655 --> 00:23:12.735 so that, that CLI is more useful. 00:23:12.785 --> 00:23:15.755 especially when you have, start to have endpoints that look the same or 00:23:15.755 --> 00:23:17.415 get called at a different context. 00:23:17.462 --> 00:23:18.597 CJ: in different contexts. 00:23:18.597 --> 00:23:22.095 Yeah, so within, I'm pretty sure you write it within the test. 00:23:22.295 --> 00:23:23.575 but I'm not, yeah, not sure. 00:23:23.575 --> 00:23:27.195 Colin: That would make sense because then like where the spec is generated 00:23:27.205 --> 00:23:29.015 from all comes from one place. 00:23:29.605 --> 00:23:29.905 CJ: Yeah. 00:23:29.955 --> 00:23:34.055 So the default when X is using our spec, we're using many tests, so 00:23:34.055 --> 00:23:37.595 there's going to be some differences there, but like when you say, okay, 00:23:37.855 --> 00:23:41.935 describe blah, it blah, or like it gets. 00:23:42.370 --> 00:23:46.630 thing, then I think like the test description can be used as like the 00:23:46.630 --> 00:23:48.460 body of the whatever you're describing. 00:23:48.470 --> 00:23:53.360 But yeah, I'm, I know there's some sort of, yeah, some sort of DSL that's in 00:23:53.360 --> 00:23:55.860 there that's like really tightly coupled. 00:23:55.860 --> 00:24:00.640 And if you want it to, generate good public facing documentation, I think 00:24:00.640 --> 00:24:01.960 it'll be challenging to maintain. 00:24:02.340 --> 00:24:04.920 Colin: then you have to flag each of those if they're public or private. 00:24:05.120 --> 00:24:07.730 You have to flag them if they're going to be in certain versions. 00:24:07.780 --> 00:24:10.330 there's a lot that goes around this. 00:24:10.990 --> 00:24:11.320 CJ: Yep. 00:24:11.320 --> 00:24:15.750 Colin: if you want to have examples, if you want to have examples that can be run. 00:24:15.950 --> 00:24:20.070 I guess the test itself could be the example, but it's not always that clean. 00:24:20.070 --> 00:24:22.160 Yeah, 00:24:22.480 --> 00:24:28.805 CJ: you generate the spec, then you can use the R Swag UI and R swag. 00:24:28.805 --> 00:24:29.525 API. 00:24:30.165 --> 00:24:35.545 Gems and those can just take in the spec and then they can make it so that you can, 00:24:35.555 --> 00:24:39.815 make test calls or whatever directly from the UI, like Postman or something, but, 00:24:40.285 --> 00:24:43.955 Colin: Yeah, ReadMe has a bunch of really good, Libraries for this in 00:24:44.135 --> 00:24:50.155 JavaScript, but they have an OAS to snippet, which will take the, spec and 00:24:50.155 --> 00:24:51.715 turn it into a code snippet for you. 00:24:51.855 --> 00:24:52.383 CJ: a code snippet 00:24:52.385 --> 00:24:55.165 Colin: Like a curl, you can say curl, Python, whatever you want it to be. 00:24:55.635 --> 00:24:58.535 and then there's another one that will actually let you like run it. 00:24:58.965 --> 00:25:04.275 So that you can do the playground style type stuff and inject your tokens into it 00:25:04.475 --> 00:25:23.711 CJ: type stuff and inject your tokens into it. 00:25:24.151 --> 00:25:27.591 Now that we're on the outside, it's oh, that's actually like super helpful. 00:25:28.101 --> 00:25:28.481 Colin: Yeah. 00:25:28.971 --> 00:25:31.171 I'll send you some things cause I've seen, I've been playing 00:25:31.171 --> 00:25:32.951 around in those tools as well. 00:25:32.951 --> 00:25:36.961 And there's one where you're like, when you generate the whole JSON, it's pretty. 00:25:37.536 --> 00:25:38.106 CJ: alarming. 00:25:38.186 --> 00:25:38.486 Yeah. 00:25:38.501 --> 00:25:42.401 Colin: then there was one where that'll convert it to YAML, but also 00:25:42.401 --> 00:25:45.151 put it in folders of each resource. 00:25:45.161 --> 00:25:45.421 So you 00:25:45.456 --> 00:25:46.056 CJ: So you can 00:25:46.141 --> 00:25:48.101 Colin: see it better and you can go edit it. 00:25:48.591 --> 00:25:52.321 And then when you're ready, you can like have it rebuilt back into the single file. 00:25:52.351 --> 00:25:56.441 Cause it's not fun to go navigate that, by hand. 00:25:56.556 --> 00:25:56.886 CJ: right? 00:25:57.496 --> 00:25:58.201 If you look at the. 00:25:58.201 --> 00:26:02.231 the OpenAPI spec for the Stripe API, which is publicly available, it's on 00:26:02.231 --> 00:26:04.801 GitHub, slash Stripe slash OpenAPI. 00:26:05.251 --> 00:26:06.781 it's insanely long. 00:26:06.851 --> 00:26:09.521 the YAML files are just monstrous. 00:26:10.001 --> 00:26:11.091 Colin: And yours is in YAML. 00:26:11.101 --> 00:26:12.711 I think ours is in Jason. 00:26:13.015 --> 00:26:13.361 CJ: JSON. 00:26:13.361 --> 00:26:18.341 Yeah, I think the repo might have several versions, but the, again, because 00:26:18.341 --> 00:26:23.031 Stripe isn't built with Rails, it's built with, a bunch of homegrown tools. 00:26:23.591 --> 00:26:28.891 The place where you describe what you want the resource to look like is all 00:26:29.231 --> 00:26:33.631 in the same spot as, the actual API, endpoints and resources are defined. 00:26:33.641 --> 00:26:37.791 And in that world, your documentation and your implementation are in the 00:26:37.791 --> 00:26:39.361 same place, and it was very handy. 00:26:39.371 --> 00:26:40.501 It was super, super nice. 00:26:40.971 --> 00:26:44.691 yeah, I was expecting and hoping for something similar in Rails, but No. 00:26:44.891 --> 00:26:45.461 Colin: Yeah. 00:26:45.551 --> 00:26:48.061 and there's some other tools that will decorate. 00:26:48.671 --> 00:26:49.371 Open API. 00:26:49.371 --> 00:26:52.391 So once you generate it from your code base, you can have 00:26:52.391 --> 00:26:53.961 another step that decorates it. 00:26:53.961 --> 00:26:58.771 So maybe, you convert those more developer friendly descriptions 00:26:58.801 --> 00:27:04.841 into localized And, dev marketing, strings and stuff like that. 00:27:05.041 --> 00:27:05.371 CJ: That's cool. 00:27:05.856 --> 00:27:06.156 Colin: Yeah. 00:27:06.401 --> 00:27:12.841 CJ: Yeah, I was half thinking maybe we ought to just feed all of our models 00:27:12.981 --> 00:27:18.001 and all of our J builders and all of our routes into Jet GBT and just be like, 00:27:18.001 --> 00:27:20.141 Hey, generate an open API spec for me. 00:27:20.661 --> 00:27:21.991 He's done this huge 00:27:22.011 --> 00:27:22.971 Colin: might be faster. 00:27:23.031 --> 00:27:23.701 You never know. 00:27:24.081 --> 00:27:26.921 CJ: Yeah, tricky to maintain something like that. 00:27:26.941 --> 00:27:28.331 And I don't want it to fall out of sync. 00:27:28.401 --> 00:27:30.981 is the, are the docs that you're working on, something that 00:27:30.981 --> 00:27:32.231 would have an API behind it? 00:27:32.241 --> 00:27:34.891 Or is it like more SDK docs? 00:27:34.941 --> 00:27:38.421 Colin: it's something completely new, so it's not like an SDK for the API. 00:27:38.761 --> 00:27:39.331 It's different. 00:27:39.371 --> 00:27:43.901 But yeah, even now, like our own API specs, some people are starting to use it. 00:27:43.901 --> 00:27:45.601 It's still very much developer preview. 00:27:45.601 --> 00:27:49.141 We tell people not to build anything with it because it might change. 00:27:49.481 --> 00:27:54.471 especially around those like circular references, the schema references 00:27:54.471 --> 00:27:55.781 or errors, stuff like that. 00:27:56.201 --> 00:28:00.941 and we're trying to make sure that like our types match the types That you 00:28:00.941 --> 00:28:02.711 expect in this spec and things like that. 00:28:02.996 --> 00:28:04.896 there's some things that can be many types. 00:28:04.926 --> 00:28:07.711 That's always fun or a bunch of union types. 00:28:08.076 --> 00:28:08.346 CJ: Yep. 00:28:08.546 --> 00:28:09.156 Very tricky. 00:28:09.516 --> 00:28:09.546 Yep. 00:28:09.781 --> 00:28:10.981 Colin: We love some APIs though. 00:28:11.181 --> 00:28:12.151 CJ: yeah, exactly. 00:28:12.521 --> 00:28:16.631 So another thing we've been working on a lot, craftwork is trying to get 00:28:16.631 --> 00:28:21.851 our memory bloat down a bit we're on render and we're still very small, 00:28:21.861 --> 00:28:25.101 tiny startup, we've only been running our rails out for about six months. 00:28:25.101 --> 00:28:30.461 And so we hope and expect that maybe a four gig box on render 00:28:30.481 --> 00:28:34.071 should do just fine, but we keep bumping against the memory. 00:28:34.691 --> 00:28:35.731 Like sealing there. 00:28:35.771 --> 00:28:40.061 And so the last couple weeks I've spent just like learning a ton about 00:28:40.071 --> 00:28:45.551 how memory management works in Ruby and Rails and just like keeping 00:28:45.551 --> 00:28:47.761 an eye on renders memory chart. 00:28:47.961 --> 00:28:48.601 And. 00:28:48.801 --> 00:28:52.901 One of the things that I learned was that you can just call gc. 00:28:52.911 --> 00:28:53.421 start. 00:28:53.631 --> 00:28:56.271 There's like this gc module that's available. 00:28:56.461 --> 00:28:58.611 and that will kick off garbage collection for you. 00:28:59.131 --> 00:29:02.671 We had a couple of jobs where I was like, Oh, at the end of this job, 00:29:02.681 --> 00:29:04.771 maybe I ought to just kick off gc. 00:29:04.781 --> 00:29:08.211 start because it's, uploading a bunch of images and creating 00:29:08.211 --> 00:29:09.031 a whole bunch of stuff. 00:29:09.041 --> 00:29:10.681 But, so that was interesting. 00:29:10.881 --> 00:29:11.531 And then. 00:29:11.731 --> 00:29:15.801 Ruby comes, out of the box, Ruby uses an allocator called malloc. 00:29:15.861 --> 00:29:18.291 It's like the default allocator, I think, for C. 00:29:18.911 --> 00:29:22.291 But you can switch that to different allocators, apparently. 00:29:22.291 --> 00:29:24.361 And one of them is jemalloc. 00:29:24.781 --> 00:29:28.211 Which, on render, you just set an environment variable. 00:29:28.701 --> 00:29:34.531 That points at some SO thing and then it starts back up and is better at memory. 00:29:35.191 --> 00:29:40.121 handles memory fragmentation better and, yeah, just helps avoid bloat a little bit. 00:29:40.321 --> 00:29:43.686 I was also super excited to upgrade to Ruby 3. 00:29:43.686 --> 00:29:48.661 3, which we did, and that actually gave some like pretty noticeable, like 00:29:48.661 --> 00:29:50.321 speed improvements, which was cool. 00:29:50.371 --> 00:29:55.631 And then, yeah, we, so we use, Sentry for error tracking and alerting. 00:29:55.831 --> 00:29:57.671 Shout out if you want to, sponsor the show. 00:29:57.871 --> 00:30:00.611 But the tools that Sentry gives you for looking at memory 00:30:00.611 --> 00:30:02.541 management don't work on render. 00:30:02.621 --> 00:30:07.341 render is agreed to support the agent that comes from Scout APM. 00:30:07.651 --> 00:30:13.041 And so we've been exploring and using the free trial for Scout this week. 00:30:13.051 --> 00:30:14.561 And it is pretty cool. 00:30:14.611 --> 00:30:20.011 seeing all the different, background jobs or controller actions and then how 00:30:20.011 --> 00:30:24.281 much they increase the memory ceiling, Based on the methods that are called 00:30:24.281 --> 00:30:29.511 or whatever and you can see traces and they give you a lot of details about 00:30:29.641 --> 00:30:33.741 here's how many allocations that were made as part of this and here's your N 00:30:33.751 --> 00:30:37.681 plus one queries and here's like specific methods that are taking a long time. 00:30:37.681 --> 00:30:42.101 so still learning a ton about Scout APM, which, yeah, it's been pretty cool. 00:30:42.791 --> 00:30:45.521 to learn about, but yeah, we still haven't, we still 00:30:45.521 --> 00:30:47.231 haven't completely solved it. 00:30:47.281 --> 00:30:47.651 But 00:30:47.851 --> 00:30:53.261 Colin: There's been like a whole new discourse around the cost and time around 00:30:53.261 --> 00:31:00.981 using things like Vercel and Render and Fly versus running on a box yourself, 00:31:00.981 --> 00:31:06.251 or I know that 37signals has moved all their stuff off cloud, which It's probably 00:31:06.251 --> 00:31:07.901 just their own cloud somewhere else. 00:31:07.991 --> 00:31:09.241 It's just off public clouds. 00:31:09.241 --> 00:31:12.271 They're not running in DHH's closet somewhere. 00:31:13.031 --> 00:31:14.161 but I don't know. 00:31:14.171 --> 00:31:19.511 I still, I mourn the Heroku days of just slapping something 00:31:19.511 --> 00:31:20.501 up and getting it going. 00:31:20.501 --> 00:31:23.131 And I know render and fly and things like that are making that 00:31:23.201 --> 00:31:24.801 easy again, but I don't know. 00:31:24.851 --> 00:31:26.551 There's a golden age of Heroku. 00:31:26.746 --> 00:31:27.086 CJ: Yeah. 00:31:27.286 --> 00:31:32.766 I think that over the last six months or whatever I've learned a lot about Render. 00:31:33.246 --> 00:31:37.546 And it's almost to the point where it feels like Heroku in that you just 00:31:37.546 --> 00:31:41.166 push and go, and there's like little things you gotta fiddle with now and 00:31:41.166 --> 00:31:45.646 then, but, I, yeah, I still think it's a little easier than using something 00:31:45.646 --> 00:31:49.176 like Docker or, AWS directly, but, 00:31:49.716 --> 00:31:53.106 Colin: having to do real DevOps and having to go out and do all that 00:31:53.106 --> 00:31:57.746 stuff, like, when you are a small team, there's Pros and cons to it. 00:31:57.986 --> 00:31:58.266 CJ: Yep. 00:31:58.616 --> 00:31:59.316 Absolutely. 00:31:59.646 --> 00:31:59.986 Yeah. 00:32:00.576 --> 00:32:00.876 Colin: yeah, 00:32:01.076 --> 00:32:01.366 CJ: Yeah. 00:32:01.536 --> 00:32:01.956 I don't know. 00:32:02.016 --> 00:32:02.566 it's fun. 00:32:02.576 --> 00:32:05.506 Memory management is interesting and I'm glad that we don't 00:32:05.506 --> 00:32:07.256 have to think about it usually. 00:32:07.356 --> 00:32:12.796 But, I think Ruby and Rails definitely make it easy to suck up all the memory. 00:32:12.856 --> 00:32:13.246 Colin: right 00:32:13.296 --> 00:32:13.516 CJ: it's all 00:32:13.546 --> 00:32:17.126 Colin: and usually throwing more money at it works for a little while until you're 00:32:17.126 --> 00:32:18.836 like, okay We're spending too much money. 00:32:18.836 --> 00:32:20.096 Just throwing money at this thing. 00:32:20.156 --> 00:32:21.146 let's see what's going on. 00:32:21.661 --> 00:32:21.911 CJ: Yeah. 00:32:22.501 --> 00:32:25.821 And oftentimes there's Oh, you could just do an includes here, or, Oh, 00:32:25.821 --> 00:32:30.881 you could just, exclude 95 percent of all of the records that were 00:32:30.881 --> 00:32:34.221 returned because you're not actually using them in any of these results. 00:32:34.271 --> 00:32:39.091 Or, Oh, you could cache these into a dictionary, And then reuse 00:32:39.091 --> 00:32:42.121 the dictionary instead of hitting the database a million times. 00:32:42.131 --> 00:32:44.981 yeah, lots of different little things, little tips and tricks for 00:32:45.021 --> 00:32:46.801 performance that we've still got to do. 00:32:47.031 --> 00:32:47.411 So 00:32:47.946 --> 00:32:51.036 Colin: fine tuning This conversation reminds me. 00:32:51.036 --> 00:32:53.776 I got some heroku emails today from a project. 00:32:53.776 --> 00:32:54.656 We both worked on 00:32:55.073 --> 00:32:55.946 CJ: project we 00:32:55.991 --> 00:32:58.081 Colin: like, the build failed to release. 00:32:58.171 --> 00:32:59.751 I'm gonna have to go look at what that is 00:32:59.872 --> 00:33:02.193 CJ: have to go look 00:33:02.461 --> 00:33:06.341 Colin: Because I haven't touched it in years, so we'll see. 00:33:06.835 --> 00:33:07.996 CJ: touched it 00:33:08.191 --> 00:33:10.791 Colin: We'll check in with Julie and make sure her business is still running. 00:33:10.897 --> 00:33:18.441 CJ: I'll check in with Julie and make sure her business is still running. 00:33:18.641 --> 00:33:23.421 I don't know, it's, part of me wants to move them off and move them to render. 00:33:23.441 --> 00:33:26.691 I'm gonna wait, I think, a little while until SolidCue has 00:33:26.691 --> 00:33:28.431 some time to, to bake a bit. 00:33:28.501 --> 00:33:31.581 I don't know if you've looked into it too much, but I'm excited to not need 00:33:31.581 --> 00:33:36.711 to use Redis and just have you pay for your web, you pay for your worker, you 00:33:36.711 --> 00:33:40.011 pay for your database, and that's it, and you don't have, this extra little, 00:33:40.011 --> 00:33:41.051 Colin: throw things on the queue. 00:33:41.076 --> 00:33:41.815 CJ: the queue? 00:33:41.815 --> 00:33:42.555 Yeah, exactly. 00:33:42.556 --> 00:33:44.616 Little thing dangling off on the side, but, 00:33:44.816 --> 00:33:47.706 Colin: Yeah, I think a lot of the infrastructure stuff is why I haven't 00:33:47.706 --> 00:33:50.236 finished my Google Calendar Discord app. 00:33:50.616 --> 00:33:54.656 Because I'm getting into that point now of needing to like subscribe and unsubscribe 00:33:54.656 --> 00:33:56.816 from events and get notifications. 00:33:57.016 --> 00:33:58.576 And I'm like, this will work for me. 00:33:58.716 --> 00:34:03.096 But the moment we have a hundred people using it, or a thousand, that's 00:34:03.096 --> 00:34:06.896 a lot of notifications of meetings and calendar events being moved 00:34:06.896 --> 00:34:08.370 around and all that kind of stuff. 00:34:08.695 --> 00:34:09.115 CJ: right? 00:34:09.415 --> 00:34:12.770 Yeah, going back to the, the deputy integration that we're working on, 00:34:13.010 --> 00:34:16.850 A lot of that is calendaring and schedules and whatever, and as people. 00:34:17.365 --> 00:34:20.425 a shift goes up, and then an employee gets assigned to a shift. 00:34:20.905 --> 00:34:24.235 Then those shifts get published, and keeping all that in sync, if people move 00:34:24.235 --> 00:34:27.435 around, or they, they're, they call in sick, or they, have to take some PTO, 00:34:27.435 --> 00:34:30.105 or whatever, and all of those things are shifting and changing, and trying to 00:34:30.105 --> 00:34:32.085 keep it all up to date is, I don't know. 00:34:32.155 --> 00:34:35.835 It's tricky, and that's one of the things that's sucking up memory, is 00:34:35.835 --> 00:34:39.755 okay, we're, making a bunch of API calls, and creating a bunch of objects to 00:34:40.075 --> 00:34:43.550 build all these automations, but, yeah. 00:34:43.750 --> 00:34:44.540 Screencasting. 00:34:44.740 --> 00:34:47.280 Colin: Yeah, I guess the only thing I'm really learning right now, 00:34:47.290 --> 00:34:52.880 other than wrangling GitHub repos, is I've been going through Aaron 00:34:52.880 --> 00:34:55.160 Francis's screencasting course. 00:34:55.770 --> 00:34:59.900 So Aaron has like a unofficial sponsored slot on this show today. 00:35:00.500 --> 00:35:03.540 And a few of the last episodes too, but yeah, it's really well done. 00:35:03.550 --> 00:35:05.350 he makes amazing video content. 00:35:05.350 --> 00:35:09.670 So it's great to see like him take that skill, turn it into a 00:35:09.670 --> 00:35:11.630 course showing us how to do that. 00:35:12.090 --> 00:35:15.000 because I really want to be able to get good at creating more video. 00:35:15.020 --> 00:35:18.840 Like we just don't do video content for our work right now. 00:35:19.270 --> 00:35:22.230 my colleague has done a few videos, but it's not like our 00:35:22.230 --> 00:35:23.790 core muscle of pumping them out. 00:35:23.840 --> 00:35:25.380 I think we have editors and stuff too. 00:35:25.380 --> 00:35:27.840 So it's not that we have to do all the work, but. 00:35:28.040 --> 00:35:32.150 Gonna practice with my own stuff, I've got some ideas for projects I just 00:35:32.150 --> 00:35:36.060 want to build, but build them either on stream or do some recordings, 00:35:36.130 --> 00:35:36.400 CJ: Yep. 00:35:36.600 --> 00:35:39.380 Yeah, the name of the game is Make That Content, right? 00:35:39.580 --> 00:35:39.900 Colin: Yep, 00:35:40.505 --> 00:35:46.235 CJ: Is, what are the, the software tools that he suggests in that course? 00:35:46.300 --> 00:35:50.890 Colin: I'm still in the pre tools phase in the course, but I think he's 00:35:50.890 --> 00:35:52.820 doing Final Cut or something like that. 00:35:52.820 --> 00:35:56.350 I don't think it's like ScreenFlow, which is what I'm most familiar with. 00:35:56.915 --> 00:35:57.405 CJ: Got it. 00:35:57.565 --> 00:35:57.885 Cool. 00:35:57.930 --> 00:35:59.470 Colin: So I'll check and 00:35:59.495 --> 00:35:59.735 CJ: and, 00:35:59.785 --> 00:36:04.475 Colin: we'll revisit this in the future in a future episode, but I'm mostly excited 00:36:04.475 --> 00:36:10.405 to see his shortcuts because he does a lot of like record, stop, record, stop, 00:36:10.495 --> 00:36:14.505 and how do you bring all those together quickly and drop the ones you don't want. 00:36:14.705 --> 00:36:18.695 CJ: And am recording, like screen recording directly from Descript. 00:36:18.895 --> 00:36:22.165 And, by recently I mean I've only made 3 or 4 videos this way. 00:36:22.615 --> 00:36:27.875 But, my previous workflow was like, record in ScreenFlow, do some editing 00:36:27.875 --> 00:36:32.750 in ScreenFlow, export, wait 20 minutes, load it into Descript, wait 20 minutes 00:36:32.750 --> 00:36:37.445 for it to transcribe, and then do some more editing, apply Studio Sound, do a 00:36:37.445 --> 00:36:39.335 bunch of stuff, export, wait 20 minutes. 00:36:39.625 --> 00:36:42.565 It was like, oh my gosh, all of those, Advent of Code videos. 00:36:42.585 --> 00:36:46.255 It was like an hour a day of just waiting on something to like export or 00:36:46.275 --> 00:36:51.285 import or transcribe or whatever, even on an M1, Yeah, completely working on 00:36:51.285 --> 00:36:55.845 revamping my flow to make it as smooth and short as possible so that it can 00:36:55.845 --> 00:37:00.295 be like, okay, record something real quick, get it up, get it out, and, yeah, 00:37:00.395 --> 00:37:00.695 Colin: Yeah. 00:37:00.915 --> 00:37:02.435 we're doing that with this too, right? 00:37:02.445 --> 00:37:03.705 we're using a different tool. 00:37:03.705 --> 00:37:07.515 So this will be the first episode that we're recording with Squadcast. 00:37:07.525 --> 00:37:09.465 So this will go straight into Descript. 00:37:09.465 --> 00:37:13.035 I'm curious to hear if it sounds any different, but We were already 00:37:13.035 --> 00:37:16.795 paying for this one, so we got rid of Zencaster, sorry Zencaster, we love you. 00:37:16.875 --> 00:37:17.025 CJ: you. 00:37:17.025 --> 00:37:18.615 Colin: but we're gonna see how this works. 00:37:18.655 --> 00:37:22.315 One last tool, cause I was doing the same, we would export it from there, then 00:37:22.425 --> 00:37:27.055 share it in Dropbox back and forth to get it into Descript, and Are you editing? 00:37:27.055 --> 00:37:27.765 Am I editing? 00:37:27.765 --> 00:37:30.925 It's just let's get this out the window as fast as we can. 00:37:31.125 --> 00:37:32.525 CJ: Yeah, right now it's just fun, right? 00:37:32.525 --> 00:37:33.535 We're just doing this for fun. 00:37:33.545 --> 00:37:34.375 We don't have editors. 00:37:34.375 --> 00:37:35.075 We don't have anything. 00:37:35.075 --> 00:37:35.805 We're just hanging out. 00:37:35.865 --> 00:37:38.225 And, yeah, so the lower touch, the better. 00:37:38.265 --> 00:37:42.675 I think, one interesting thing for screencasting that I started playing 00:37:42.675 --> 00:37:45.205 with was, I think it's called key caster. 00:37:45.775 --> 00:37:50.405 yeah, key caster, you can like brew install this and it shows what 00:37:50.405 --> 00:37:52.165 you're typing, as you're typing it. 00:37:52.245 --> 00:37:52.875 And. 00:37:53.075 --> 00:37:57.125 The goal there is make a couple videos about, keyboard shortcuts and things 00:37:57.125 --> 00:38:01.175 for, moving around and, switching between windows and tabs and how do you edit 00:38:01.225 --> 00:38:03.235 text and then move between lines and, 00:38:03.855 --> 00:38:06.945 Colin: how do you see CJ's Vim wizardry in action? 00:38:07.306 --> 00:38:10.585 CJ: That maybe, yeah, I haven't done any Vim videos yet, but, 00:38:10.665 --> 00:38:11.555 Yeah, I think that'd be fun. 00:38:11.565 --> 00:38:12.915 It'd be super fun to just 00:38:12.925 --> 00:38:15.485 Colin: you're recommending that everyone install their own keylogger. 00:38:15.685 --> 00:38:18.165 CJ: It is a keylogger and there's, it's funny on the GitHub 00:38:18.195 --> 00:38:19.375 repo, it's all open source. 00:38:19.385 --> 00:38:22.985 So the, on the GitHub repo, they're like this, you don't want to let people 00:38:22.995 --> 00:38:24.685 have your key access to your keyboard. 00:38:24.725 --> 00:38:29.495 Like you can, here's how you download this thing and go make sure that it's safe or 00:38:29.495 --> 00:38:32.835 whatever, but yeah, it's going to become. 00:38:33.245 --> 00:38:36.415 Just an on screen keylogger for my videos, we'll see. 00:38:36.710 --> 00:38:39.730 Colin: I think I will be adding that to my personal computer, not my work 00:38:40.040 --> 00:38:40.445 CJ: computer. 00:38:40.445 --> 00:38:42.555 Yes, yeah, it's yeah, I don't know. 00:38:42.755 --> 00:38:44.165 Fun stuff, but. 00:38:44.385 --> 00:38:44.475 Absolutely. 00:38:44.675 --> 00:38:44.975 Yeah. 00:38:45.175 --> 00:38:45.805 Colin: Very cool. 00:38:45.805 --> 00:38:46.695 I think that'll do it. 00:38:46.705 --> 00:38:49.305 As always, you can head over to buildandlearn. 00:38:49.335 --> 00:38:53.175 dev and we'll include links to all the show notes and resources 00:38:53.175 --> 00:38:54.345 that we talked about today. 00:38:54.545 --> 00:38:56.525 CJ: Alright, that's all for this episode, folks. 00:38:57.015 --> 00:38:57.565 See you next time. 00:38:57.765 --> 00:38:58.515 Colin: Bye friends.