[00:00:00] Dan: Hello and welcome back to We Not Me, the podcast where we explore how humans connect to get stuff done together. I'm Dan Hammond.

[00:00:13] Pia: And I am Pia Lee. Well, it's nearly Christmas time, Mr. Hammond. We should be joyously celebrating and looking forward to lots of happy, joyous behavior,

[00:00:26] Dan: Yeah, exactly. Whereas we are, we're not doing that on the show obviously, um, to today. But, um, yeah, we've, yes, it's a, it's a lovely and the end of the end of the season, our seventh season of We Not Me. Um, but yeah, it's funny, I was, um, I was making a cup of tea just, just now before, um, uh, getting, as you do get, get on the show, it's nice early morning to, um, to connect with you and do this to these recordings.

[00:00:50] And, um. I was thinking how do we start the show about masculinity and how, and looking toxic and healthy masculinity and, um, that we're gonna be talking about with our guest, Richie Hardcore. And on the radio came this story that I know you heard as well, which is about this. Turkish football president, Faruk Cooker who punched referee Jilil Amer Miller, and went on to pitch an absolute and punched him, punched him to the ground, 

[00:01:17] Pia: I know at the end of the game. That's feedback. 

[00:01:20] Dan: Prompt. Yeah, I know. Yeah, little. I think there's a, it could go to one of those leadership lessons on how to give effective feedback. Um, but you sort of think blind me another example of really poor behavior. Um, and I think that's essentially what this show is going to be about. We'll see some, some things, but also start to do as Rich will take us, into having empathy for these people who are showing some poor behaviors and where that's coming from, and the negative impact it can have on them as well.

[00:01:45] So, um, let's go and hear from Richie now for a fascinating deep dive into sort of how humans are connecting and not connecting across the world just to end our season in style. 

[00:02:01] Pia: Christmas is coming. So, um, we thought we'd try and get Santa on the show, but he couldn't make it. But in his place is Richie Hardcore, welcome to We, not Me, Richie.

[00:02:11] Richie: Hi. Thanks for having me. It's nice to meet you both. 

[00:02:13] Pia: Yeah, it's gonna be a great conversation. And, um, before we start, you, you look like you're gonna enjoy this, but Dan is going to do the, the card trick with you and ask you, uh. A question to get the ball rolling and get the conversation started.

[00:02:28] Dan: I am indeed. I've cut the, cut the pack. At this point, it's an orange car, which means medium, supposedly, but they're very individual. But the question is, the last big thing I learned about myself was.

[00:02:42] Richie: Um, last big thing I learned about myself. Um, I would have to say if I'm being like really frank, that I still have quite a lot of unresolved, like, childhood rage in me. That is something that, uh, came to the surface or came to my attention lately and I've been thinking how do we not just build, uh, coping mechanisms in to assuage our, worst parts of ourselves, but how do we actually dissipate that? And how do we heal those parts of ourselves that we can carry around that can get in the way of our, our relationships or our progress? 

[00:03:15] Dan: just, um, let's just dive into that. We, we are only, you know, getting as personal as you want, but is that rage about something about your childhood, or is that just remaining?

[00:03:26] Richie: No, no. I grew up in a really dysfunctional environment, so, um, my dad's an alcoholic who struggled with depression and we didn't have the language depression in the eighties. I just, um, you know, would often find dad alone crying. He drank all the time. Um, he, uh, would be like emotionally abusive and occasionally physically violent, although that wasn't common. And yeah, that's kind of where my formative first 15 years and that is something that shapes my work around masculinity now. And also is, you know, a personal journey at the same time.

[00:04:07] You know, like, uh, the personal is political to some degree, although as much as I show it wasn't. I think those personal experiences and my own journey unpacking there and taking out the stuff that doesn't serve me putting better stuff back in as a father now myself, yeah. continues to shape and color the professional work I do.

[00:04:30] Pia: So tell us, tell us who you are and tell us how you got to where you are today.

[00:04:36] Richie: Yeah, the who you are is always hard 'cause you end up just giving a list of things that you do and know, right? So, um, who am I? I guess I am, um, someone who's quite curious and someone who's quite evolving in my thinking. And I've really noticed that in the last. Five or six or seven years actually. Like my, my personal values and my political thoughts and associations and ideologies have shifted and, and, and changed a lot since my twenties.

[00:05:07] In my twenties I was. you know, studied Latin American politics at university. Like, I wanted to be part of the next socialist revolution. You know, like I, I went, I had a, I went to university in Chile. I had a relat, uh, scholarship to do that, and I was very, you know, quite hard lift in my thinking, in my approach. But as I've evolved and I've moved into professional spaces, working with people from, you know, traumatic backgrounds or marginalized backgrounds and come to try and figure out some are serious social issues in, uh, our, my society down here in New Zealand, but which are broadly universal in the West.

[00:05:44] I've found that I find myself in a more of a moderate space. And that's just due to personal curiosity I suppose. You know, like the more I've read and the more I've talked to people, the less possible it is to be black and white in my thinking and to be judgmental in my thinking. And I also think there as I've, he healed for one of a better word, and my mental health is solid, because it hasn't always been, that's colored my lens too. You know, like if, I feel like a lot of people in activist spaces have their perceptions and subsequently their work colored by their unresolved personal issues and traumas like we all do, right? 

[00:06:28] But, but I've, I guess I'm in this process of constantly trying to take different lenses off so I can actually see something like reality. And then the reality that I see is one where we continue to live in a world where, uh, the least safe place for women is the family home. If we are thinking about the West at least, or places that aren't in conflict zones, um, where, uh, boys exponentially die from suicide. Um, homicide, um, are at greater risk of, you know, street violence, where girls change the way that they dress and the way that they walk home and who they frequent, um, certain places with or not for fear of sexual violence. You know, where more and more young people, boys and girls have got anxiety, depression, self-harming behaviors, and I try and do something about that, I guess in my own small way.

[00:07:28] I, I, I look, I've tried to figure out like, why do men perpetrate violence at such high rates either towards people who they're meant to love the most, their partners and their kids, or their friends, or not their friends, but if we think of like fratricide, you know? 'Cause most people who are killed are killed by someone that they know. So I'd work for, uh, the Ministry of Social Development here in New Zealand. I have my own private practice. I was involved in White Ribbon for a long time, which, um, you may be familiar with in, in both Australia and the UK.

[00:08:04] I have a little charity, rise Above Charitable Trust. So I work with people from prison and people in the addictions, people who are live, who are struggling with addiction or in recovery journeys with addiction. I get some referrals from the police and work with, like, at-Risk young people, and use like, martial arts as a pathway for mentoring. So, 'cause I used to be a professional fighter, so I, um, fought Muay Thai kickboxing, boxing, MMA for a long time, you know, I fought in Japan, Thailand, Australia, New Zealand. And I started fighting when I was a kid at 13 and then I retired at 33, so I had like 20 years of different sorts of combat sports and took a lot of that into what I do now, you know?

[00:08:49] How do I reach hard to reach audiences, man? Like, you're not gonna get a lot of dudes rolling up to a conversation on healthy masculinity without a really good carrot, right? So, so I, um, my carrots are UFC fighters, you know, like my, I take my sporting history in my friendships with like, globally famous athletes, and we put on workshops and like, yo, you can come and do MMA, but then you have to listen to me talk about, like, mental health and wellbeing.

[00:09:17] And, um, I really enjoy that. I really enjoy that. I feel like a lot of work around masculinity messes the boat, I think gets the language is well intentioned, but it gets the language ro language wrong. Can even actively push guys who aren't having politically conscious conversations towards the other end. So yeah, I've kind of create, been part of that space for a few years now and the work's evolving, but I really love doing it.

[00:09:46] Dan: An amazing approach, Richie. So imaginative and it makes perfect sense. You've got to, there's no point having a message if people aren't there to hear it. And it's really clever play way to think, how do I bring people in? Just you, you said along the way, you're, you're trying, you're doing work to understand why men more than women are violent to others and themselves actually through suicide, I guess. 

[00:10:08] Richie: Yeah, that's an interesting one. So historically, I looked at things through an entirely sociological lens because that's my academic background. And I went back and did, you know, some post-grad stuff and looked at the sociology of masculinity. And we are acculturated into this dominant, and I think it's shifting. I think we need to give note to the fact that culture is changing, but we still have like this dominant conception of what is a quote unquote real man, right? Like, be violent, be stoic, be really sexually promiscuous, have a disdain for homosexuals, be really hardworking, accumulate wealth, don't express emotions, be actively homophobic.

[00:10:48] Because you have a hierarchy of masculinity, right? Like you've got like a hegemonic dominant alpha sort of unrealistic, ideal. And then you have all the men who sort of sit down the sidelines and are complicit, end upholding that idea. And then you have like subordinate masculinity. So our, we have a lot of homophobia because we other men who are, are, are feminine or presumed to be. 

[00:11:13] So I think there is a sociological driver towards that. And then if we are thinking alongside that we have, um, intergenerational histories of personal violence, right? So if you grow up in a household where people are violent, you are more likely to be violent. If you're in a neighborhood where violence makes sense for your social advancement or your personal protection, violence is an outcome, you know? Poverty, poor mental health, substance abuse, all of those things are a, a really big part of the factor, uh, of the, yeah, all those are really big factors of the puzzle.

[00:11:47] And more recently I've been, I read a wonderful book called Testosterone, or I think it's called t, the Story of Testosterone by, um, a woman who is at Harvard, uh, Carole Hooven, she was a professor there. And, it really was insightful for me as a father of two little boys, to read about the fact that testosterone does make males more prone to aggression, and actually like less likely to cry. And I've read Richard Reeves' wonderful book Of Boys and Men, which is a really great read. Um, and again, he looks at why are boys and men failing at education, for example, at exponentially high rates. Why are we starting to really languish in all number of, social outcomes while women are actually starting to improve in lots of social outcomes. What are the societal shifts in that?

[00:12:39] And Reeves argues that for boys and men, we have biology, sociology, and then agency. What are we choosing out of all these different influences? And um, it's a really compelling argument to me and it really like shifted my thinking a lot in a short amount of time. Both Reeves and Hovan both really sort of moved me towards that more, uh, truth, I guess, objective space rather than just an advocacy space. And I've actually found I'm way better at reaching boys and men when I incorporate all of that into the work that I do that's, you know, with them in a room.

[00:13:18] And this is wonderful work and it needs to be done about consent, sexual violence, pornography, domestic violence, but with quite a harsh, I guess, tone. Um, you can lose an audience really quickly doing that, you know what I mean? And whereas when now I preface everything. What are, what are our dominant ideas about masculinity, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, who do you think of? You know, and everyone's like Andrew Tate, you know, like, uh, Arnold Schwarzenegger, you know, like these are the dominant, you know, Rambo, it's always like action movie heroes or sports stars, essentially. Like maybe a, a business tycoon, right? And so that's a really quick example for anyone that we still hold that concept of the real man up like that, and that's popular in culture. Um, and these are the outcomes that can fall from that.

[00:14:08] But I preface it with like, well, who kills himself the most? Who ends up in prison the most? Like who, um, dies in car wrecks the most? And I've caught male self interest at the forefront of the conversation in order to get a buy-in. And then I'm like, yeah, and we're smashing up our missus and we're, our kids are scared of us. And girls don't go out to certain clubs because they don't feel safe of not being sexually assaulted. You know, like, we have a real problem with my friends, and it's on all of us to shift the culture that that comes from. 

[00:14:40] And, um, I've, yeah, I, as I've shifted that approach, it, I'm way better at my work. And interestingly, like, I get a lot more cut through when I talk about these things on like Instagram for example, with boys and men. and I've kind of like fallen outta favor with people who are more in a particular social justice vision of the world.

[00:15:02] Dan: Oh, that's interesting.

[00:15:03] Richie: yeah, it has been interesting to the demographics, like my Instagram account needs to be about 75% female followers, 25% male. Now it's like 56 female, 44 male or something. 'Cause I've shifted the tone. I talk about sports more, particularly kickboxing because I'm trying to be intentional and reach my audience whilst to also being authentic, like I'm not just, like, pretending to be someone I'm not. I'm just, I'm not, I'm not like, like you follow me on Instagram and you haven't been listening to this. It's all real stuff out there. But, uh, I'm also trying to be like, well, what's the point of this?

[00:15:40] Pia: Do you see, Richie? Do you see any of this, what you've talked about, spill over into the corporate setting? You know, males are running teams and being executives all around the corporate space. Be many that be listening here now. 

[00:15:57] How does this, sometimes you know, some of you talked about almost like the rage that you feel, but you. Do you see that that might exist in a corporate setting and in team settings?

[00:16:09] Richie: Yeah, I, I definitely think so. I definitely think all these things carry over to everywhere, right? Like, okay, let's take worst case scenario. Imagine you're a boss, and you're male, you're acculturated to a very limited idea of what it means to be a man and what success is and how to, how to negotiate with people. Maybe you yell, maybe you raise your voice, maybe you use threats, maybe you have a fair amount of homophobia in your language, you know, uh, maybe you routinely watch hardcore pornography for your own sexual gratification and relaxation. All of those things are gonna shape your value system and how you interact with the young office Junior who might be gay, or how you deal with a female colleague. You know, like, 'cause we're, we're internalizing values. And when we internalize values, that ultimately does play out somewhere.

[00:17:04] When we think about mental illness, you know, for a long time, we have had a very masculinized workplace culture where you just work hard, suck it up, don't call in sick, um, just push on through or else how else are you going to get a promotion or be seen to be an achiever or be a team player? You know, like, don't be, soft in any way. Well, is there any wonder that we have so much mental illness when that has been like a dominant paradigm for so long? When you have an inability to compromise, when you only communicate to win rather than to understand, I think those are stereotypically masculine behaviors that are socialized to a large degree, to the best of my knowledge.

[00:17:48] And I'm on a journey of unpacking that too, in my personal life, right? Like, I'm not the best communicator, like, I can often be didacted and wanna offer a practical solution when my fiance actually just wants to express her feelings. And then there is a part of me which is like, well, what's the practical outcome of this? Like, what are the actions that we could take to like fix this problem? You know, I'm, I'm quite rigid and obsessed with like logic when in fact I am actually a very emotional person.

[00:18:19] So in an office setting, I think it's really important that we give equal value to different skill sets and different traits in, in, in, in people. And don't just presume to follow that sort of Wolf of Wall Street style. And I'm, look, I'm honest, I'm not in the corporate space, so I'm speaking from what I know about it. And what I know about it is that it is changing and it is shifting and that culture is evolving for the good, right?

[00:18:48] We obviously, you know, we're still not that far from the Me Too movement are aui? You know, like when you think of like, uh, Harley Weinstein and all the different allegations of different people during that period. I think we still have a long way to go to talk about sexual experiences and sexual relationships and consent and power dynamics in corporate settings. I think that's something that's really important. So as much as we're evolving, I think we still have work to do, but I think we need to do that together in unity rather than in, in a confrontational way. 'cause that just creates walls.

[00:19:26] You know, they talk about, you know, privilege, right? Like people who don't feel that they are privileged 'cause they've never had that conversation, aren't aware of it. They often feel quite got at or attacked if the message isn't delivered in the right way. And some people would argue, oh, you shouldn't have to tone police, you shouldn't have to hold back how you're speaking. You shouldn't, you, people should, men should just suck it up. And I do get that, but I'm also like, well, what's your goal? To be as frank and forthright as you wanna be and expect people to change your beliefs and values, behaviors, or do you actually want 'em to change your beliefs, values, and in which you need to be pragmatic in your approach?

[00:20:08] Dan: You're so right. It's almost as if the, the sort of saying whatever I want has become more important than actually getting an outcome and trying to progress or, or whatever, yeah, for

[00:20:18] Richie: Dude. A hundred percent. And that's really generational, I've noticed too, you know, like I think younger generation. Uh, I know I sound like a grumpy old boomer, but I'm not a boomer just yet. I'm not quite there 

[00:20:30] Dan: You can't grow into one. You can't 

[00:20:33] Richie: you know. Yeah. But you know what I mean, like, I'm

[00:20:35] Dan: Yeah, I know. I know.

[00:20:36] Richie: I'm like a xenial. I'm like a millennial xenial. I'm on the cusp of being a millennial GenX, but I do see the impact of social media on how people interact in offline spaces. And that and, and I think it's detrimental by and large.

[00:20:53] Dan: So, um, gender itself is, is, has become much more fluid now. And I, you know, and, um, do we need a new model of masculinity to go after or, or is that actually just about being a better human? 

[00:21:08] Richie: Yeah, there's a, that's a good question. Um, yeah, there's a, there's a researcher down here, Dr. Chris Taylor, who works in gender violence function, and he says a lot of the stuff that we, uh, discuss when we talk about healthy masculinity is about just being a better human, right? Like these are human values. Yeah, they're aspirational models that any human can aspire to. But I think that there are differences in men and women, and there's obviously like a whole curve in spectrum of beliefs, values, behaviors, interests across the sixes, but if we're speaking averages, there are, there are difference between us, right? And it's the cultural stuff around masculinity that, that we have termed toxic masculinity that I think we need to shift. And to your question, create healthier models for boys and men to aspire to.

[00:21:58] And then we need to like role model them. We're really good at pointing out misogynistic influences like Andrew Tate, as we should be. But I don't see as many mainstream platforms show showcasing, well, what's a, what's good masculine behavior, what does that look like? What does that sound like? And, um. I would like to see that. I'd like to see like a strengths-based approach to healthy masculinity that's not really jargon laden.

[00:22:23] So I was thinking about this today, like I grew a mustache, um, and I normally put heaps of hair wax in my hair. My 'cause my hair is naturally curly. And in the eighties and nineties, no one that I thought was cool had curly hair. So I was real mad that I had curly hair. I know this sounds like stupid, but I've been walking through the gym and dudes are like, bro, feeling the 'tache, dog. You know, like, yo, I'm feeling that hair, bro, you should keep that hair like that. Like, don't put all that wax in it dog. Like your hair looks mean.

[00:22:54] And then, for me, the fact that these are young men who are lifting weights or doing kickboxing or practicing mixed martial arts, like, uh, doing something that was not that long ago girly, you know? Like, homophobia has pre prevented men from being affectionate to one another, from paying compliments to one another. Anti femininity that we have indoctrinated into boys and men from a young age has stopped us being affectionate to one another. We can be hard to one another. We can punch each other in the shoulder, all that sort of stuff. But we can't genuinely be kind. And, um, that to me was a really cool like reflection that culture can shift.

[00:23:35] Because it, it's expanding out more and more. And I know, I know that my people will be like, well, yout 'tache looks stupid, but like, the fact that other men can compliment another man on how he looks is a actually a really big thing if you do the work that I do. And, and no one was like, are you familiar with the phrase No, homo? 

[00:23:53] Pia: No, 

[00:23:54] Richie: so no homo in popular culture is something that you say after you pay someone else a compliment. So if you're like, it's like, oh, your shirt looks cool, no homo. Or I like your cologne, no homo.

[00:24:06] Pia: As I'm paying you a compliment, but I'm not gay. 

[00:24:09] Richie: Yeah. That's right. And so that's shifting. Like everyone who gave me a compliment, none of them said that, which is great. And I think when we think about healthy models, masculinity, actually, what is a really kind of vanguard conversation around that is the whole mental health conversation that we've been having. You know, like we are doing a good job of encouraging boys and men to at least ask for help or, or even offer help or be supportive of one another, learn how to listen. When historically it's been, let's just sink heaps of alcohol, work really hard. Pretend there's nothing that wrong,

[00:24:43] So for all the very real issues that we do have when it comes to masculinity, whether in corporate settings or in the streets, things are changing for the better, and I think we just need to be careful not to like drop the ball on that 

[00:24:56] Pia: I have a son. And some of the challenges for me is him growing up in Australia, to be where the cultural expectation is around this masculinity, all the things you've talked about.

[00:25:11] Richie: Hmm.

[00:25:12] Pia: And it strikes me because it's quite different to males in the UK where it's okay men to cry, to love poetry, to play musical instruments and never pick up a ball. It's a, now that's maybe a subsection of society, so I may 

[00:25:30] Dan: She's talking about me, there 

[00:25:33] Pia: but I mean, it's sort of that, there is a, an interesting one of how the culture plays that around you and what's specific to certain countries or not.

[00:25:41] Richie: No, I think all cultures have subsets and all cultures have dominant like expectations. 'Cause like as much as you talked to like perhaps the gentler side of English culture, I mean football culture is savage.

[00:25:53] Pia: Have you watched the documentary series on Beckham? The abuse that he took.

[00:25:57] Richie: Yeah, exactly. So I think there's a, I think, and you know, New Zealand's historically had rugby culture. You know, America's got like NFL culture. You know, we have different cultural things around sport or war or patriotism, and a lot of those things are unhealthy. But at the same time, having spent a lot of time in Australia, like I, I come over like two, three times a year, and have done for the last, God since my twenties often, you know, covid aside. You do have a really vibrant arts culture as well. You've got wonderful musical culture. It's all there. Like I speak, I speak in the Catholic schools in Victoria. You have such a progressive curriculum, like it's amazing. It's very, very LGBTQI plus friendly. It's very like focused on like racial equity. It's really focused on, the fact that they've spent good money to bring me over to talk about healthy masculinity, and have done for like maybe four or five years. Look, don't get me wrong, Australia has got a, a femicide problem, but so does everywhere.

[00:27:06] Pia: I Think good point. I mean, we, you know, our son is brought up with two moms and two sisters, so the guy is outnumbered right from the start. But I, really interesting. And I caught him the other day. He got angry with his sister and tried to punch her.

[00:27:23] Richie: How old's your son?

[00:27:23] Pia: EIght. and my 13-year-old, he tried to punch her just, just on the shoulder, but by God she was like a cobra. She turned right back at him, and I thought the force of like, don't do that, that is just not okay. It was the bit when that went on, and if you do that again, I'll smash your head off, which was really wasn't the bit where I then had to really step in as the parent and go, okay. He was doing really well up until that moment, and then we don't do that bit.

[00:27:52] But it is, I mean that masculinity of how, you know, you can. communicate the things that you feel upset and angry about, which is what he felt, but, but then also how, how far that goes. And also what the children today are going That's not okay. They're also putting up boundaries together. That's, we don't, don't accept that. That's quite an interesting thing to see.

[00:28:14] Richie: Yeah, I think it's a sign of social progress, you know? Like, I think that's great. 

[00:28:18] And I think we just have to be mindful that there is a counter push to those changes, unfortunately, you know, like there's quite like a virulent online, explicitly anti-feminist, anti healthy masculinity narrative being driven in certain spaces in how do we not lose our boys who are on the cusp to that?

[00:28:40] Pia: Is

[00:28:40] that the Andrew Tate type of stuff? how did that happen? 

[00:28:44] Richie: do you want my honest perspective on that?

[00:28:45] Pia: I'd like, I'd like to know.

[00:28:47] Richie: Okay Well, I'll reinforce it with, um, words of Caitlin Moran, who's an author. And in her latest book, I think it's called What About Men? I actually am gonna humble brag and be like, yeah, she mentioned a Twitter conversation she had with me in it. That's how, that's how I ended up picking it up, 'cause someone was like, you're in Caitlin Moran's new book. And I had no recollection of this Twitter chat that her and I had had.

[00:29:10] But we were talking about Andrew Tate, her and I, and she presented an argument in her book, which says that your average 13-year-old boy who's feeling hopeless, depressed, and despairing about life and wondering if there's any point in going on, doesn't feel privileged. He doesn't feel. advantaged in the way that a lot of online social justice discourse presents all boys and men to be.

[00:29:36] I did a documentary with the Australian journalist, Jess Hill. It was called, um, asking for It, it's about consent, three part series over there on Australia on SBS. And in that documentary I sat down with a bunch of boys from wonderful school, good St. Joseph's in Geelong. And we just talked about all this stuff that you're, we're kinda talking about now. And this young, um, Nigerian lad said to me, he goes, You know who gets it hardest online? And I go Women? And he goes, you guys. And I go, what? Middle-aged white men? And he's like, yes.

[00:30:06] And he was dead set serious, 'cause he felt that when cis white, heterosexual males are presented as the problem for every problem under the sun, and Caitlin Moran says exactly the same in her book, that it is disenfranchising and you are gonna find voices that will stand up for you. And those voices are Andrew Tate, and, and the people around him. 

[00:30:30] If you're a young person on the internet, you make, maybe you make a sexist joke, maybe you make a homophobic joke. Someone screenshots it, puts it on TikTok and it's like, Joe Blogs is a sexist piece of shit. And then a thousand other people are like, yeah, fuck this guy. That is not gonna bring that boy into the chat. He's gonna be confused, he's gonna be angry, he's gonna be hurt, he's gonna be defensive. And there's like a wellspring of that on the internet, ready to be taken advantage of by ideologues, by people who are explicitly sexist, misogynistic, wanna maintain the status quo, wanna maintain the gendered order that we've had forever, that's kept like women at the bottom, men at the top.

[00:31:07] We actually need, I think, and I know I, I irritate people by saying this sort of stuff, to be pragmatic in our approach. You can't just tell someone that they're terrible for their immutable characteristics, namely their sexuality and their skin color, and expect them suddenly jump on board with whatever it is you're selling. Just like we shouldn't do that with anyone. Like using race, sexuality, gender identity as an ad hominem or a generalization for anyone's beliefs, values, and behaviors is hugely damaging and hugely polarizing. And we are seeing the world splinter into this really identity focused, these really identity focused divisions.

[00:31:50] And it really, really, honestly breaks my heart. Like it really makes me so sad seeing how people talk to each other now, talk about other groups now. Because I guess I have developed more of a, like a universalist approach to things, you know? Uh, and I wanna find our shared experiences and our shared humanity and what are the touch points here that we can work on to build a world where our historical inequalities are overcome, you know?

[00:32:16] Like, colonization does have a negative impact on indigenous peoples. How do we come together? I. In a way that doesn't make you feel other than like you're losing your rights to address these issues. How do we help men work with other men so that men aren't killing women and girls and being sexually violent towards them?

[00:32:37] Pia: Sounds like we are not me, to me.

[00:32:39] Richie: Yeah, yeah, yeah. It is like that. No, but I think a lot about we, not me, Pia. I think that we need to overcome our individual nuances and have like a broad church and like, we can't agree on everything, but what I've seen happen in social justice, leftist, progressive spaces happen isn't a solidarity, it's actually the opposite, it's an individuation. Now we've got like, okay, let's put every different thing about me into my bio on Instagram, TikTok, Facebook, so I can ensure that I am this much different to you. And that spills into the discourse. And then we wonder why so many straight white men are feeling attacked, got at, going to agitate the manosphere, roll of Chamas, all these horrible, horrible, gross voices and radical getting radicalized and pushing back against the social progress that we continue to need.

[00:33:33] And it really frustrates me 'cause I don't want a whole bunch of like angry white men on the internet, like feeling other than got at. Because how's that worked out? Like, that's what's led to World Wars and actual racism in the streets and political upheaval and like, it really, um, I know I'm, you're like, dude, we're definitely editing this part out, but like, it's it stress, it stresses me out, 

[00:33:57] Dan: it's great. It's great. I think you've got to the heart of the issue, uh, Richie, you know, it's our final episode of the season. I think we've talked a lot about, um, in the season, about, about division and how that's working out. I think you're putting your finger on something, which is that you, I. uh, this is getting a little bit political, but I, I was always during the Iraq war, I was really strongly minded that you can't waterboard your way to peace and prosperity.

[00:34:21] Richie: A hundred percent, bro. 

[00:34:22] Dan: And the same thing here. You can't if it's not acceptable when you're trying to improve society to just say No, we're actually gonna hate different people now. We're gonna oppress different people, but I'm on the side of goods so I can hate them, but in, in a good way. And so it, it's, that's not the, that's never gonna work.

[00:34:40] Richie: It really doesn't. You can silence people's voices. You can de platform them. You can punish 'em and ostracize them and cancel them. But it doesn't make those ideas go away. It doesn't, it's not transformative. It's just silencing. And what happens when that happens is, um, those ideas go sit in the dark, man. They metastasize and they become cancerous and worse.

[00:35:02] Like, you push everyone off Twitter and they go to Telegram or 4chan or whatever you, all you're gonna get is rubbing up against even more extreme voices. Or at least in like a normal, like a mainstream platform then um, you are gonna have to encounter other ideas and values and beliefs and behaviors and people who are different to you and learn to coexist.

[00:35:25] And I really worry that we're actually fragmenting society and social media's doing a terrible job of, of bringing us together and doing an excellent job of pushing us apart. And I know that's probably a bit heavy, but we, we see it more. We saw, like, Brexit in your country. We saw like, um, the Jan six riots in America, in New Zealand where I live, we had the parliamentary protests during covid. And that's, that's not 'cause people are bad. It's 'cause people are angry and disenfranchised and poor and misinformed and manipulated. And we actually need to do more than just shame and other those people, we actually need to figure out why they're hurting.

[00:36:05] No addict ever walked into rehab and got told that they're a useless piece of shit and changed, right? Well, I say that 'cause I've, my father's an alcoholic and I've been around recovery spaces my whole life. Like I worked in recovery, I've dated people who have had substance abuse disorders. You know, like he's my personal friends, like. Shame is a terrible behavior tool when it's used like a stick. Like if it comes from within and you're ashamed of yourself or something you did and it asks you, that forces you to ask questions, that works. But when, when you use it as a punishment, that just, I think gets in the way of progress.

[00:36:45] And so in my field where I'm trying to develop a healthier masculinity for boys who aspire to, I feel quite frustrated that a lot of the dominant voices and paradigms and and activism don't seem to feel the same way.

[00:36:59] Dan: So Richie, what can our listener do in this world that is, seems to be intent on division? Um, what can our listener do? Just one simple thing that you've seen that is a mindset or a, an action they can take?

[00:37:14] Richie: Listen to people who are different to you. I, I follow accounts that irritate the heck outta me. I'm reading a book where I'm like, Hmm, I'm not, I don't really agree with any of this. But I'm gonna finish the book. It's so simple now to have a confirmation bias for everything and just continue to double down on what you already feel to be true. And then we are all just stuck in like echo chambers, and that's not helpful.

[00:37:37] Uh, I think we need to ask more questions and we need to listen. I think we need to be patient. I think we need to listen to understand. I personally think that we need to do a lot more to build bridges instead of walls. I think we should do something to figure out how, why the algorithm gives us supremacy to the negative and the most outrageous. And I don't wanna like be heavy handed here, but how do we regulate that?

[00:38:07] I'm not big on censorship, but, yeah, I'm not big on censorship at all, ' cause I think the way to beat bad ideas are better ideas. But at the same time, there is stuff that shouldn't be online and is online.

[00:38:20] Dan: And the algorithms are censorship. They're changing a message. They're creating their own in a way.

[00:38:24] Richie: That's true. So how do we accentuate positive? I know this sounds really kumbaya, like, um, Kermit the Frog, like accentuate the positive and diminish the negative, right?

[00:38:36] Dan: Good. So Right. Well before you burst into Song Richie, however wonderful that would be, thank you so much for ending on that, uh, well in our seasoner on this wonderful note and a deep, but a place that we need, it's something we all in society need to get stuck into. So thank you so much for being on the show today. It's been an absolute joy.

[00:38:55] Richie: Well, I hope so. I'm, I'm, you may just being polite and you are gonna get off and you can be like, whoa, 

[00:39:00] Dan: whoa 

[00:39:01] Richie: coffees today.

[00:39:02] Pia: We'll post something on, on social media about it. 

[00:39:05] Richie: Yeah. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Yeah. Go, go destroy my life on Twitter. Thank you. I 

[00:39:08] Dan: that's, 

[00:39:09] Richie: that 

[00:39:09] Dan: we're trying to do that. No, but thank so much, Richie. It's 

[00:39:12] Richie: my pleasure. My pleasure. But nice to, thanks for your time and, uh, hope it's been worth it. 

[00:39:16] Pia: I think Richie's point at the end around, you know, if we individualize our perspectives, we just end up fighting battles, which I mean, gosh, we don't have to spend longer than a minute looking at any other social media or newspapers to see that in evidence. And what I took from it was you need to really take accountability for your own healing and you, and recognition of your own trauma. It colors the way that you see things and the perspectives that you have, and sometimes you need to go and take some space, get some stuff to work out to be able to be in a much better place to, to not seek revenge. wHich of course is unnatural, it's almost like that's inbuilt. You know, that's the, we, we, we've talked about that previously, but actually to look for reconciliation for higher ground.

[00:40:08] Dan: Yes, indeed. High ground is a good way of putting it. 

[00:40:11] Pia: as a team, a team, you're gonna go through stuff. People are gonna really annoy you and drive you nuts and trample over your values and it's, it would be really easy to write them off. It's finding this subtle balance of having your own boundaries, but also not developing laser focus on annihilating people that don't have the same values or the same ways of behaving yourself or ganging up, which is what, you know,

[00:40:40] Dan: yes indeed. And this, this division is something we've talked a lot about through this season. It's been really, interestingly, a recurring theme. I don't think we had any intention of, of, of doing that, but, you know, I know, um, you know, the Gaza, awful situation around Gaza and has, has, has sort of leapt up during this time.

[00:41:00] And I, I read a, i, I listened to a great podcast. The Rest is Politics with Simon Seaberg, Montefiore, who is, who is a historian. He's a, a really great distinguished historian and he said you, we can have too much history. And what he, what he's saying about this, almost all of these conflicts, but definitely this conflict there is everyone's got a history and a narrative and a legitimacy, um, that they can say and become right and have a superior position, whereas the other side also has a same, and it's intractable then.

[00:41:31] So, uh, I think when we're. When we're seeing this division in society, which is sort of, as we say led but also um, you know, social media is set up through its algorithms to accelerate division, I think we have to all set back, sit back and just see if we can let go of some of that and try to, as he said, listen to the other side.

[00:41:51] But, um, yeah. And in teams in a sort of smaller way. There can be though that person on the team, ah, he was, he used, I used to work for him. He is a kind bit of a. Let go of that history. It's quite a good, it's don't have too much history. It, it's part of it as well, I think.

[00:42:06] Pia: I think so. May, may. Maybe we practice that at Christmas lunch when we're sitting with our relatives. I think that's a jolly good, jolly good place to start

[00:42:13] Dan: That's, yeah, exactly right. Let go. Yeah, I know. Yeah, that's. Joking aside. I'm sure it is. And uh, I think we can, we can definitely do that. But a really, sort of, lots of food for thought there as well as food on the Christmas table from, uh, uh, from that show, I think. 

[00:42:32] But, uh, that is it for this episode and for this season. We will be back at the end of January with a beautiful new, uh, season eight for you. Uh, but in the meantime you can find show notes where you are listening and also at squadify.net. If you've enjoyed the show, please do share the love and recommend it to your friends. If you'd like to contribute to the show, just email us at wenotmepod@gmail.com. We not Me is produced by Mark Steadman. Thank you so much for listening. It's goodbye from me.

[00:43:00] Pia: And it's goodbye and Happy New Year from me.