WEBVTT NOTE This file was generated by Descript 00:00:05.049 --> 00:00:06.039 CJ: Welcome to Build and Learn. 00:00:06.039 --> 00:00:06.699 I'm CJ 00:00:07.599 --> 00:00:10.930 Colin: And I'm Colin, and today we are hanging out with Chris Oliver. 00:00:10.930 --> 00:00:11.559 Welcome Chris. 00:00:12.639 --> 00:00:13.959 Chris: Hey, thanks for having me. 00:00:13.959 --> 00:00:14.790 Good to see you guys. 00:00:15.489 --> 00:00:16.180 CJ: You too. 00:00:16.799 --> 00:00:19.900 I, I think we should probably just run down the list of all the 00:00:19.900 --> 00:00:23.729 things that Chris works on in case you don't if you haven't already. 00:00:23.759 --> 00:00:24.209 Chris: all that? 00:00:25.154 --> 00:00:26.504 Colin: Do you have time for all that? 00:00:28.269 --> 00:00:28.539 Chris: Yeah. 00:00:28.539 --> 00:00:29.529 It doesn't feel like it. 00:00:29.529 --> 00:00:30.279 Some days 00:00:30.474 --> 00:00:34.113 CJ: I mean, the, the biggest thing right now is that you've got a baby, right? 00:00:34.113 --> 00:00:35.733 Which is like taking all of your sleep. 00:00:36.013 --> 00:00:38.113 Chris: That's been, it's been wonderful. 00:00:38.213 --> 00:00:42.503 But yes, it is very, he's been a really good baby though, so like, 00:00:43.043 --> 00:00:44.663 I feel like he sleeps really well. 00:00:44.663 --> 00:00:46.193 He eats really well. 00:00:46.193 --> 00:00:49.073 He doesn't really cry that often unless he's hungry. 00:00:49.433 --> 00:00:54.053 Or, like yesterday he got his shot, so he was like quite fussy compared to normal. 00:00:54.083 --> 00:00:57.173 But you know, I think we've been very lucky. 00:00:57.173 --> 00:00:59.903 He turned seven months old today actually. 00:00:59.953 --> 00:01:00.243 CJ: Okay. 00:01:00.588 --> 00:01:05.138 Chris: I'm enjoying it, but it, it does take like the routines all change. 00:01:05.138 --> 00:01:08.798 So like in the morning, get up, feed him, change him, take him to 00:01:08.798 --> 00:01:13.388 daycare and like that was my prime time for recording videos and stuff. 00:01:13.388 --> 00:01:14.648 And now that's gone. 00:01:14.653 --> 00:01:18.718 And then some days I gotta pick him up from school early cuz like, he 00:01:19.028 --> 00:01:21.998 got his shot, so he had a temperature yesterday and they were like, oh, we 00:01:21.998 --> 00:01:23.648 gotta send him home just to be safe. 00:01:23.648 --> 00:01:24.518 And I'm like, Ugh. 00:01:24.728 --> 00:01:27.938 So now I gotta go take out an hour of my day in the middle 00:01:27.938 --> 00:01:29.108 of the day to go get him. 00:01:29.108 --> 00:01:32.708 And then I've, I haven't been home the rest of the day, so it's not like I'm 00:01:32.708 --> 00:01:34.898 be doing much recording then and stuff. 00:01:34.898 --> 00:01:41.138 So it's, it's definitely squeeze work in where you can find it now, but at 00:01:41.138 --> 00:01:45.338 least like I work for myself and I can, I can work weekends or nights 00:01:45.338 --> 00:01:47.558 or whatever, you know, works out. 00:01:47.608 --> 00:01:50.448 Colin: sounds like a little bit of a forced work life balance though. 00:01:50.658 --> 00:01:51.138 You got 00:01:51.618 --> 00:01:52.138 Chris: Yeah, it is. 00:01:52.278 --> 00:01:52.968 Colin: gonna happen. 00:01:53.598 --> 00:01:54.318 Chris: It is great. 00:01:54.318 --> 00:01:59.488 It's also been, you know up until February of this year, it was me and Colin, 00:01:59.488 --> 00:02:02.188 Colin started in January of last year. 00:02:02.188 --> 00:02:04.348 So 2022 00:02:04.448 --> 00:02:10.953 Colin Giber yeah, he, he was the first employee last year and then in February 00:02:10.953 --> 00:02:15.783 this year ended up hiring Kent and Andrew, and so now we're a team of 00:02:15.783 --> 00:02:19.893 four, which was like a much easier decision cuz like in the past I was 00:02:19.898 --> 00:02:24.153 just kind of like, well, there's more support, I'll just like do it and. 00:02:25.683 --> 00:02:30.003 I had some time and it wasn't a big deal, but now it's like I have way less time, 00:02:30.003 --> 00:02:35.433 so time to like reinvest the money into the, the business and grow the team and 00:02:35.523 --> 00:02:41.193 it'll take some time to train them and me to learn to be a manager and whatever. 00:02:41.198 --> 00:02:45.583 Like I'm, I'm doing a very different job now than I was but still trying to 00:02:45.583 --> 00:02:49.993 also do that same job I was previously doing with recording videos and 00:02:50.653 --> 00:02:52.753 maintaining code and projects and stuff. 00:02:52.753 --> 00:02:55.663 But you know, it's time to spread the load. 00:02:55.753 --> 00:02:57.883 CJ: is everyone on the team recording videos? 00:02:57.883 --> 00:02:59.173 I know Colin did a bunch. 00:02:59.333 --> 00:02:59.513 Chris: Yeah. 00:02:59.513 --> 00:03:03.373 Colin's been doing he's been doing like the entire Ruby for Beginners 00:03:03.813 --> 00:03:05.518 series on our new learning path. 00:03:05.518 --> 00:03:06.568 So we're trying to give. 00:03:07.258 --> 00:03:11.158 Go Rails for the longest time has been like Rails Cast was, which was like, 00:03:11.668 --> 00:03:15.088 here's the feature and we just kind of jump around to different features 00:03:15.088 --> 00:03:18.568 and you know, some of them may be a multipart thing that's like four or five 00:03:18.573 --> 00:03:22.528 videos long, but it was just kind of like, here's a random topic every week. 00:03:22.978 --> 00:03:28.168 But there was a lot of in, in order to like help beginners more and get more 00:03:28.168 --> 00:03:33.058 people in the Rails community, we ended up like, let's go build a sort of curriculum. 00:03:33.148 --> 00:03:37.978 And so we're gonna have like intro prerequisites which will cover like 00:03:37.983 --> 00:03:43.038 Ruby sql, html, C s s, JavaScript, you know, basics of all those. 00:03:43.578 --> 00:03:48.138 Then we'll build, like, I'm in the middle of recording our second rail series, 00:03:48.138 --> 00:03:49.968 which is gonna be building a forum. 00:03:50.688 --> 00:03:55.668 We built a blog originally and just did like all the little things of like, here's 00:03:55.673 --> 00:03:59.768 H T D P requests, here's how routes are mapped, and everything in, in rails. 00:04:00.148 --> 00:04:04.353 The forum is like, Assume you learned a lot of those things. 00:04:04.353 --> 00:04:08.163 We'll, repetitively do these things so you understand it as you go. 00:04:08.168 --> 00:04:13.923 But like we will be little less detailed on some of those and like, you know, 00:04:13.983 --> 00:04:16.113 jump into more complex things as we go. 00:04:16.383 --> 00:04:20.513 And a forum generally is like a blog, but there are all these other little nuances. 00:04:20.513 --> 00:04:25.083 Like a blog didn't need associations really, but now the forum needs a 00:04:25.083 --> 00:04:28.053 topic in forum posts and categories. 00:04:28.053 --> 00:04:31.773 And, you know, you may want to, like the feature I was building 00:04:31.773 --> 00:04:36.633 today was like opting in or out of a thread to get notifications. 00:04:37.233 --> 00:04:38.953 Not one's like, well if you posted. 00:04:40.068 --> 00:04:43.518 In the thread, you're by de facto like subscribed. 00:04:43.968 --> 00:04:46.968 But if you're subscribed through that, then you might want to 00:04:46.968 --> 00:04:50.658 opt out, but you also might not have interacted on that topic. 00:04:50.658 --> 00:04:54.708 You just want to see any new posts so you can opt in and you know, 00:04:54.708 --> 00:04:57.288 there's like four different states or whatever you could be there. 00:04:57.293 --> 00:05:02.508 And so we're, you know, eeking our way into those like more complex topics and 00:05:02.508 --> 00:05:08.088 stuff, but start out, do all the basics of the forum, then like here's notifications. 00:05:08.358 --> 00:05:11.238 Turns out they're not as simple as everything we've done so far. 00:05:11.238 --> 00:05:14.178 So, you know, it'll be a challenge when you get to that 00:05:14.178 --> 00:05:15.408 part, but that's the point. 00:05:15.438 --> 00:05:20.958 Like, do the repetitive work, ingrain that in your head and then like do some. 00:05:21.498 --> 00:05:25.428 Expansion stuff that's a, a challenge or whatever for you. 00:05:25.488 --> 00:05:30.768 So I've got at least 10 different projects like that on the to-do list 00:05:30.768 --> 00:05:32.838 to do for like Rails for beginners. 00:05:32.938 --> 00:05:35.998 And then we're gonna do some other stuff too, like building products 00:05:35.998 --> 00:05:41.218 and integrating Stripe and, you know, doing more complex stuff and we'll 00:05:41.218 --> 00:05:45.508 probably have like three or four levels of different content for it. 00:05:45.513 --> 00:05:50.608 But trying to, you know, give sort of a curriculum and still also on 00:05:50.608 --> 00:05:56.068 top of that, do our weekly Screencast and maintain Hatch box and maintain 00:05:56.068 --> 00:06:01.868 jumpstart and all of the open source projects too, and is kind of nuts, but, 00:06:02.678 --> 00:06:03.158 CJ: Yeah. 00:06:03.218 --> 00:06:03.908 That's wild. 00:06:03.968 --> 00:06:06.158 Have you ever considered, yeah. 00:06:06.158 --> 00:06:08.438 And having a baby, I mean, it's great that you're growing the team 00:06:08.438 --> 00:06:09.668 too, cause that'll take a load off. 00:06:10.148 --> 00:06:15.038 Have you considered teaching or like having a course about building a business? 00:06:15.043 --> 00:06:17.628 Like I feel like you've kind of figured the business stuff out pretty well too. 00:06:18.968 --> 00:06:19.928 Chris: that's a really good one. 00:06:20.028 --> 00:06:25.488 I haven't thought about doing exactly that, but sort of in that sense like 00:06:25.543 --> 00:06:30.703 because what I want to do with Jumpstart is like give people more than just 00:06:30.703 --> 00:06:32.533 code for like starting your business. 00:06:32.538 --> 00:06:34.754 So that would fit in really nicely there. 00:06:34.759 --> 00:06:37.813 Cuz I've thought about, like, I've actually written up, I haven't published 00:06:37.813 --> 00:06:45.883 it yet, but, you know, go use Stripe Atlas and then, you know, go find a lawyer and, 00:06:46.033 --> 00:06:51.358 you know, Consider an S corporation if you don't want, you know, if you don't want 00:06:51.358 --> 00:06:56.758 investors, then, you know, just having sort of like this whole detail thing about 00:06:56.758 --> 00:07:01.828 like, make sure you set up an email list and get people on there and automate the 00:07:01.833 --> 00:07:06.298 welcome emails and have, you know, an evergreen sort of thing going on there 00:07:06.298 --> 00:07:08.068 to pitch your product to those people. 00:07:08.068 --> 00:07:11.818 And then, you know, trying to get into all that. 00:07:11.818 --> 00:07:15.448 So that would definitely make sense to do like a course with that. 00:07:15.453 --> 00:07:20.978 So yeah, I'll definitely have to have to think about that and what 00:07:21.068 --> 00:07:23.738 it might, what it might look like. 00:07:23.918 --> 00:07:24.998 Yeah, I like it. 00:07:25.118 --> 00:07:25.958 That would be really fun. 00:07:26.363 --> 00:07:29.633 Because I would definitely, what I like making is stuff like that where I'm 00:07:29.633 --> 00:07:33.743 like, I wish I could have bought that 10 years ago when I was starting, if 00:07:33.743 --> 00:07:39.593 I could've paid 500 bucks or whatever for the, you know, complete course on 00:07:39.593 --> 00:07:43.583 all of those, like, little decisions you have to make along the way. 00:07:43.823 --> 00:07:48.593 Even little things that are like here, how do you deal with, with sales tax? 00:07:48.653 --> 00:07:51.083 You know, do you even need to deal with sales tax? 00:07:51.653 --> 00:07:54.443 I had no idea, but we can use, you know, Stripe Tax or 00:07:54.443 --> 00:07:56.033 whatever to figure that out now. 00:07:56.063 --> 00:08:01.913 Much easier than, I like, read a bunch of crap on Missouri's website 00:08:01.918 --> 00:08:05.783 about sales tax and was like, well, if it's like they don't charge sales 00:08:05.783 --> 00:08:10.253 tax for Netflix, go Rails is pretty close to Netflix, so I assume I don't 00:08:10.253 --> 00:08:11.903 have to charge sales tax in Missouri. 00:08:12.203 --> 00:08:16.043 And like, they eventually sent me a letter in the, in the mail that was 00:08:16.043 --> 00:08:18.833 like, you owe us $5,000 or something. 00:08:18.838 --> 00:08:20.993 And I was like, for what? 00:08:21.113 --> 00:08:25.253 And then I had to call them and they were like, You know, you explain your 00:08:25.253 --> 00:08:29.993 situation and they're like, yeah, just send us a note that this is why. 00:08:30.263 --> 00:08:30.683 You know? 00:08:30.773 --> 00:08:31.283 Yeah. 00:08:31.303 --> 00:08:36.113 And they, and they basically just do that as a tactic to scare you and, you 00:08:36.113 --> 00:08:38.543 know, taking it seriously and stuff. 00:08:38.548 --> 00:08:40.973 But they like estimate what you probably would owe. 00:08:40.973 --> 00:08:43.973 And I was like, oh God, I don't like have $5,000. 00:08:44.363 --> 00:08:48.023 And I was like, and also I'm pretty sure I don't, I'm not supposed to. 00:08:48.023 --> 00:08:51.723 Colin: I would pay attention to that cuz states are becoming aware of SaaS. 00:08:52.202 --> 00:08:55.922 The opportunity of sas and they're starting to come after, 00:08:56.192 --> 00:08:57.302 even down to the state level. 00:08:57.302 --> 00:09:02.172 I think it was Chicago that is now doing like a, I don't know if it's, 00:09:02.172 --> 00:09:04.842 you have to have customers in Chicago or if you're based in Chicago. 00:09:05.082 --> 00:09:07.872 Transistors running into this because John Buddhas in Chicago. 00:09:08.262 --> 00:09:10.512 And so part of the transistor team is there. 00:09:10.512 --> 00:09:14.572 And so Justin Jackson has a whole bunch of episodes on their podcast. 00:09:14.572 --> 00:09:18.562 Build Your Sass about the trials and tribulations of just trying to, 00:09:19.132 --> 00:09:22.432 just trying to stay on the right side of the line is so difficult. 00:09:22.492 --> 00:09:22.822 Yeah. 00:09:23.272 --> 00:09:24.742 And you don't know what you don't know. 00:09:24.747 --> 00:09:27.882 And so like having that, that bulleted list of, you know, this 00:09:28.192 --> 00:09:31.792 is how Jumpstart recommends you run your business would be pretty 00:09:31.792 --> 00:09:32.242 useful. 00:09:32.947 --> 00:09:33.157 Chris: Yeah. 00:09:33.157 --> 00:09:36.937 And a lot of that too, you can rely on, you know, if you have a good 00:09:36.937 --> 00:09:40.837 accountant, then they will know somebody who's a good lawyer for tax 00:09:40.837 --> 00:09:44.947 law and, you know, can refer you to somebody to get advice and whatever. 00:09:44.947 --> 00:09:51.187 Cuz we had them reach out again, I think it was, and it was like, or no, when, when 00:09:51.192 --> 00:09:55.657 we launched Jumpstart, my accountant was like, Hey, let's just go talk to a tax 00:09:55.657 --> 00:10:00.517 lawyer and have him look at your product and like write up whatever document. 00:10:00.517 --> 00:10:05.347 And it was basically like, you know, this is not taxable in Missouri. 00:10:05.347 --> 00:10:06.277 And if. 00:10:06.772 --> 00:10:11.392 There ever comes contention with the state of Missouri than like the tax lawyers. 00:10:11.392 --> 00:10:13.132 It's, it's on his shoulders. 00:10:13.462 --> 00:10:18.862 So you're basically paying him like a thousand dollars for insurance to protect 00:10:18.862 --> 00:10:20.362 you in case something does happen. 00:10:20.362 --> 00:10:23.692 So it's like, if he made a mistake then okay, then he will deal with it. 00:10:24.032 --> 00:10:24.732 But we. 00:10:25.822 --> 00:10:30.082 You know, just paid, we paid a thousand dollars for a document for no reason, 00:10:30.472 --> 00:10:33.412 unless something becomes a problem in the future, which it shouldn't, 00:10:33.412 --> 00:10:35.572 but it better safe than sorry. 00:10:35.572 --> 00:10:38.242 And, you know, you're on the, the right side of things there. 00:10:38.242 --> 00:10:39.412 But yeah, it's a pain. 00:10:39.472 --> 00:10:42.517 When Colin Gilber join, he's in Louisiana. 00:10:42.737 --> 00:10:47.687 So Louisiana has different laws and so we have to collect 00:10:47.687 --> 00:10:51.287 sales tax for just Louisiana customers, for just some products. 00:10:51.337 --> 00:10:55.507 Because not all digital sales in Louisiana are the same. 00:10:55.512 --> 00:10:58.487 So a platform is a service like Hatch Box. 00:10:59.467 --> 00:11:04.477 Not sales taxable, but like Jumpstart is to Louisiana customers. 00:11:04.477 --> 00:11:09.397 And then also he lives in a, not a county, but a parish in Louisiana. 00:11:09.757 --> 00:11:11.647 They have their own sales tax there. 00:11:11.647 --> 00:11:16.107 So you gotta do it on the state level and the county level or the parish level. 00:11:16.447 --> 00:11:21.517 And some states, like you mentioned, Colin, that are like where you're selling 00:11:21.517 --> 00:11:26.317 to, not where your company is based, they want to collect sales tax too. 00:11:26.317 --> 00:11:28.957 So technically there's a lot that. 00:11:29.572 --> 00:11:33.232 Even like having one sale in the UK or in Europe or whatever, can 00:11:33.232 --> 00:11:35.332 like put you over the threshold. 00:11:35.332 --> 00:11:40.672 And so you're supposed to do that and it just is making it awful for like 00:11:41.032 --> 00:11:46.522 entrepreneurs because you're gonna have to have just like a, you have to use 00:11:46.527 --> 00:11:50.302 something to help you because there's no way you can like do all that work 00:11:50.332 --> 00:11:53.612 because you're trying to make the business and make a salary period. 00:11:54.442 --> 00:11:58.132 But it's like, oh, great, now you have all this overhead to even begin 00:11:58.137 --> 00:11:59.662 before you can make your first dollar. 00:11:59.662 --> 00:12:02.152 You'll have to like figure out all that. 00:12:02.212 --> 00:12:06.372 It's just, it's I don't know, barriers to entry that are not great. 00:12:06.552 --> 00:12:10.782 Doesn't really encourage people to create their own companies or anything. 00:12:10.812 --> 00:12:11.412 It's not good, 00:12:11.957 --> 00:12:14.697 Colin: It sounds like a good business opportunity for somebody out there 00:12:14.697 --> 00:12:18.027 if anyone's listening and wants to pull up their sleeves and get 00:12:18.027 --> 00:12:19.287 into tax. 00:12:20.037 --> 00:12:22.257 You know, I mean, a new government would be useful. 00:12:22.262 --> 00:12:25.767 I mean, we, we are like 50 unique countries, right? 00:12:25.767 --> 00:12:26.937 As the United States. 00:12:26.942 --> 00:12:31.077 It's like we, CJ and I ran into this when we were doing e-commerce 00:12:31.077 --> 00:12:34.167 with, I mean, it's a physical product, but it was a subscription. 00:12:34.797 --> 00:12:38.052 And are you in Nexus or are you not? 00:12:38.052 --> 00:12:40.992 And do you use, which vendor do you use? 00:12:40.992 --> 00:12:44.952 This was pre-trip text too, so it was like, you know, which other 00:12:44.957 --> 00:12:46.572 a p I do we have to pay for? 00:12:46.572 --> 00:12:50.152 And I think Justin concluded there wasn't really a good 00:12:50.152 --> 00:12:51.652 bulletproof service for this yet. 00:12:51.652 --> 00:12:54.022 So it's an opportunity out there for somebody. 00:12:54.827 --> 00:12:55.762 Chris: Yeah, yeah. 00:12:55.762 --> 00:13:00.202 Stripe Tax was probably the easiest piece for me cuz I went in and created the 00:13:00.202 --> 00:13:06.172 products and then like read through all of the options for what tax category it was. 00:13:06.172 --> 00:13:09.532 And then I found ones that were like, platform is a service. 00:13:09.537 --> 00:13:11.362 That's pretty much what Hatch Box is. 00:13:11.902 --> 00:13:15.712 Just select that and then like, okay, now I know in the previews 00:13:15.712 --> 00:13:19.552 it would show like zero tax from Missouri, whatever for Louisiana. 00:13:19.552 --> 00:13:24.052 And you know, any other future states we have added, it'll show that. 00:13:24.052 --> 00:13:28.462 And I would just kind of know where before I was like trying to 00:13:28.467 --> 00:13:34.492 read the Louisiana, you know, law rulings and whatever for stuff. 00:13:34.492 --> 00:13:37.642 And it's like, good luck, you'll, you will never find what you want. 00:13:37.642 --> 00:13:41.422 Or you might find what you want but you can't understand it because it's written 00:13:41.422 --> 00:13:45.292 in some obscure language, legal ease. 00:13:45.577 --> 00:13:45.907 CJ: Yeah. 00:13:45.997 --> 00:13:46.777 Need some chat. 00:13:46.777 --> 00:13:50.377 G P T to translate it into simple whatever. 00:13:50.957 --> 00:13:56.417 I, I remember when I was working outta the collective Colin, a Anne, like, sat 00:13:56.422 --> 00:13:59.777 down with me and like helped sh you guys have like a bunch of cheat sheets and 00:13:59.777 --> 00:14:01.307 stuff for getting hooked up in Nevada. 00:14:01.907 --> 00:14:02.807 That was pretty cool. 00:14:02.897 --> 00:14:06.257 I don't know if that's still like a, a thing that you offer at the collective. 00:14:06.692 --> 00:14:08.882 Colin: it, it's something we should do more of for sure. 00:14:08.912 --> 00:14:11.432 It, it's one of those things where, I mean, I didn't expect that we were 00:14:11.432 --> 00:14:16.862 gonna, this is, this is the tax episode for everybody who is just joining us. 00:14:17.132 --> 00:14:20.492 But even with the co-working space, we're a weird one where like every 00:14:20.497 --> 00:14:24.032 time we had to switch accountants for filing our taxes and they were like, 00:14:24.482 --> 00:14:26.012 you guys are passed through income. 00:14:26.012 --> 00:14:27.752 And I was like, if you change our. 00:14:28.412 --> 00:14:30.092 Our income to pass through. 00:14:30.092 --> 00:14:34.712 Like it affects us in such a weird way and we're not passed through income. 00:14:34.712 --> 00:14:38.612 Like a co-working space is not someone buying property and 00:14:38.612 --> 00:14:40.022 then renting it out to somebody. 00:14:40.502 --> 00:14:44.172 We, it's like a whole service on top of the space. 00:14:44.172 --> 00:14:47.862 And there's obviously like, Probably a spectrum of co-working spaces 00:14:47.862 --> 00:14:50.502 where some of them just rent to somebody and call it a day. 00:14:50.502 --> 00:14:54.852 But like, we have a team, we have a whole bunch of services and things 00:14:54.852 --> 00:14:56.952 that we offer, including like what you were just talking about. 00:14:56.952 --> 00:15:00.612 So, you know, I was like, this is how we should be classifying our, our revenue. 00:15:00.612 --> 00:15:03.162 And the, the accountant wanted to fight me about it, and it's like, 00:15:03.167 --> 00:15:04.783 we've been in business for 13 years. 00:15:04.788 --> 00:15:07.962 We are not doing this every year that we have to file our taxes. 00:15:08.392 --> 00:15:09.412 We did this then. 00:15:09.412 --> 00:15:12.232 And you know, even the city was like, we don't really understand what you do here. 00:15:12.232 --> 00:15:15.532 And it's like, okay, let's, let's make business a little 00:15:15.537 --> 00:15:16.642 bit easier for everybody. 00:15:16.647 --> 00:15:20.062 I, I know every new Secretary of States, like, we're gonna make 00:15:20.122 --> 00:15:24.232 government better for business, so let's, let's actually do that. 00:15:24.232 --> 00:15:24.772 Please. 00:15:24.772 --> 00:15:28.192 Like better websites, better like, let's get an a p i for all the 00:15:28.192 --> 00:15:29.902 State Secretary of State websites. 00:15:29.902 --> 00:15:33.742 Like that's, that would be, you know, in 2023, you'd expect that 00:15:34.837 --> 00:15:36.607 Chris: It'd be written in like soap though. 00:15:36.982 --> 00:15:37.822 Colin: it would be, yeah. 00:15:38.902 --> 00:15:40.282 Like can we just get a web hook? 00:15:40.312 --> 00:15:40.942 Can we get. 00:15:41.522 --> 00:15:42.002 CJ: Yeah. 00:15:42.242 --> 00:15:46.802 I think like co-working spaces are pretty, pretty new, like and also a 00:15:46.802 --> 00:15:51.032 lot of the companies that are being created with tools like Jumpstart are 00:15:51.182 --> 00:15:54.962 kind of like, a lot of people have new ideas and so sometimes they don't fit 00:15:54.962 --> 00:15:57.032 nicely into these tax rules, whatever. 00:15:57.037 --> 00:15:59.882 And I heard this quote on a podcast recently and I thought it 00:15:59.882 --> 00:16:01.502 was really funny and it's that. 00:16:02.267 --> 00:16:07.547 We have paleolithic emotions, medieval institutions, and God-like technology. 00:16:07.577 --> 00:16:10.907 And I just think about this all the time with like these politicians 00:16:10.907 --> 00:16:16.187 who are these old, you know, crusty people who lived in a completely 00:16:16.192 --> 00:16:18.738 different era than we are right now. 00:16:19.187 --> 00:16:23.387 And like, just the thought of them trying to regulate something like 00:16:23.417 --> 00:16:26.117 AI or regulate something like, like 00:16:26.167 --> 00:16:26.407 Chris: Yeah. 00:16:26.407 --> 00:16:30.307 Like that interview with the TikTok ceo, that was like, the 00:16:30.307 --> 00:16:33.787 guy was asking about like, do you have access to my home network? 00:16:33.792 --> 00:16:35.737 And he was like, well, duh. 00:16:35.767 --> 00:16:37.208 Like it run, like if you're at home. 00:16:38.032 --> 00:16:40.522 And you have, how do you think you get internet at home? 00:16:40.852 --> 00:16:42.742 Like it's on your home network. 00:16:43.012 --> 00:16:44.062 That's what that is. 00:16:44.062 --> 00:16:49.762 And it's just like, yeah, how, how could they possibly, well, and you read some 00:16:49.762 --> 00:16:53.992 of those, some of those tax categories are hilarious cuz it's like this one 00:16:53.992 --> 00:16:58.332 really obscure little one-off thing and you're like, why is their sales 00:16:58.332 --> 00:17:02.442 tax for like chocolate chip cookies in this one location or whatever. 00:17:02.442 --> 00:17:07.542 It's like some weird thing that happened and, and then there's like just these very 00:17:07.542 --> 00:17:14.102 vague like electronic service and you're like, well, I don't know, maybe that's it. 00:17:14.882 --> 00:17:17.222 But yeah, it's a, it's a mess. 00:17:17.252 --> 00:17:22.382 Everybody in governments like super old, don't really know technology. 00:17:22.772 --> 00:17:26.312 We don't even know a lot of the stuff that's going on as people. 00:17:26.312 --> 00:17:30.632 It, like, we do one thing, but it's not like, you know, all the stuff that's 00:17:30.632 --> 00:17:32.582 going on in tech, there's just too much. 00:17:32.642 --> 00:17:33.182 So 00:17:34.142 --> 00:17:35.072 CJ: Our, yeah. 00:17:35.072 --> 00:17:38.612 And our kids are gonna have to grow up in like a completely different, 00:17:38.642 --> 00:17:40.712 they're, they're already growing up in a completely different world. 00:17:40.712 --> 00:17:47.792 I'm looking over my monitor at my son, who is building a Google sheet of components 00:17:47.822 --> 00:17:49.922 for his own, like custom PC build. 00:17:50.312 --> 00:17:56.402 And he's using Bing, g p t, like, to confirm the, like compatibility 00:17:56.402 --> 00:17:57.452 of different components. 00:17:57.752 --> 00:18:01.652 So as an eight year old, he's able to like copy and paste from e-commerce 00:18:01.652 --> 00:18:05.492 websites to tell like, is this a TX board compatible with this 00:18:05.612 --> 00:18:07.202 power supply compatible with this 00:18:07.207 --> 00:18:07.862 like ram? 00:18:08.342 --> 00:18:14.022 And so like this is, this is like a thousand times in the future or like, 00:18:14.112 --> 00:18:17.232 you know, a thousand steps in the future from where I was when, when I was eight. 00:18:17.232 --> 00:18:21.342 So like, this is, it's it's moving at a pace that's just like yeah. 00:18:21.347 --> 00:18:22.902 I, I don't know how government is gonna keep 00:18:22.977 --> 00:18:26.247 Colin: we're just gonna have to, we're gonna have to get into politics, guys. 00:18:26.457 --> 00:18:27.147 We're gonna have to, 00:18:28.347 --> 00:18:32.127 CJ: Yeah, I mean, I, I almost wonder like if I'm already outta date, you know, 00:18:32.127 --> 00:18:35.607 like there's, there's a few things where I'm like, okay, I, I feel like I missed 00:18:35.607 --> 00:18:37.887 some stuff with that whole crypto wave. 00:18:38.277 --> 00:18:41.337 And there's definitely some details in there where I would not have an 00:18:41.337 --> 00:18:45.688 informed opinion about how to regulate it well, and so like even I, as you 00:18:45.837 --> 00:18:49.407 know, I'm in my thirties, like I already feel uncomfortable about making 00:18:49.407 --> 00:18:51.537 policy around those, like, new things. 00:18:51.537 --> 00:18:52.347 And so, yeah. 00:18:52.347 --> 00:18:53.187 I don't even know. 00:18:53.457 --> 00:18:55.737 Colin: I think that's a, that's a good baby step from eighties 00:18:55.737 --> 00:18:57.627 though, like eighties to thirties 00:18:58.917 --> 00:18:59.427 CJ: True. 00:18:59.487 --> 00:19:01.437 Colin: you, and you have this learning mindset. 00:19:01.442 --> 00:19:02.487 I think that's the difference. 00:19:02.487 --> 00:19:06.267 It's like we, we learn these tools, we play with them, we. 00:19:07.317 --> 00:19:09.747 There needs to be a way to, to, to think about those kinds of things. 00:19:09.747 --> 00:19:14.157 I really like, like the 18 F, which is the digital service as an option. 00:19:14.157 --> 00:19:18.087 They are not big enough to deal with all the government tech problems that exist. 00:19:18.087 --> 00:19:22.257 Like I think they've started with just making the websites accessible. 00:19:22.262 --> 00:19:22.317 Right. 00:19:22.317 --> 00:19:23.457 Which is a big. 00:19:23.967 --> 00:19:25.137 Pain into itself. 00:19:25.137 --> 00:19:29.937 But here in Nevada, they're like, they spent a lot of money on this new, like 00:19:30.237 --> 00:19:32.367 all-in-one business platform thing. 00:19:32.372 --> 00:19:33.207 And it is garbage. 00:19:33.657 --> 00:19:37.527 And I will publicly say that any day they are now talking about 00:19:37.532 --> 00:19:40.307 doing an R R F P for redoing it. 00:19:40.457 --> 00:19:43.697 And I'm like, how much money is allocated for this? 00:19:43.697 --> 00:19:46.067 And either a, can I bid on it 00:19:47.327 --> 00:19:47.617 Chris: Yeah. 00:19:47.687 --> 00:19:50.087 Colin: I, like, I have a whole bunch of accountants and bookkeepers and 00:19:50.092 --> 00:19:51.677 businesses that we've seen the problems. 00:19:51.677 --> 00:19:52.697 We know what needs to be 00:19:52.697 --> 00:19:53.117 fixed. 00:19:53.677 --> 00:19:57.457 Or like, are you gonna have a transparent process for picking the next person? 00:19:57.457 --> 00:19:59.498 Because it's like, is it just to rebuild the current one? 00:19:59.997 --> 00:20:01.507 Is it to refactor it? 00:20:01.507 --> 00:20:02.497 Is it to start new? 00:20:02.497 --> 00:20:05.377 Because we all know what happens when you try to do a full rewrite. 00:20:05.857 --> 00:20:11.317 Like we're gonna lose a lot of the context that happened in the first one, and no 00:20:11.317 --> 00:20:13.117 one's gonna know why the thing exists. 00:20:13.117 --> 00:20:14.947 And they're like, oh, why does this thing do this? 00:20:14.947 --> 00:20:15.637 It's like, oh yeah. 00:20:16.057 --> 00:20:18.297 Some random weird rule in some county somewhere. 00:20:19.627 --> 00:20:20.107 Chris: Yep. 00:20:20.647 --> 00:20:24.527 Yeah, there's, have you guys watched that movie war Dogs or whatever, where 00:20:24.527 --> 00:20:29.237 it was like, where like they have the, the government contracts that they're 00:20:29.237 --> 00:20:34.457 like, we just need to buy like a thousand Berettas from anybody, and like anybody 00:20:34.457 --> 00:20:38.867 could submit a proposal and they start like selling random stuff and whatever to 00:20:38.867 --> 00:20:40.487 the government and making tons of money. 00:20:40.817 --> 00:20:41.597 It's, you'll have to 00:20:41.827 --> 00:20:42.647 Colin: I'm gonna have to watch 00:20:42.827 --> 00:20:44.177 Chris: you can be the next war dog. 00:20:44.612 --> 00:20:46.322 CJ: Yeah, it's pretty funny. 00:20:46.532 --> 00:20:49.252 They've also, there's like a, there's a book too that they one of them 00:20:49.252 --> 00:20:53.802 wrote I have a buddy that, that works for a government contractor, and we 00:20:53.802 --> 00:20:55.182 used to talk about this all the time. 00:20:55.212 --> 00:20:58.212 Like, we should just submit for government contracts to like, make screws or 00:20:58.317 --> 00:21:00.207 Colin: give more governments on rails, right? 00:21:01.092 --> 00:21:01.422 CJ: Yeah. 00:21:01.512 --> 00:21:02.862 I mean, I'm sure 00:21:02.862 --> 00:21:03.612 there's tons and tons of 00:21:03.747 --> 00:21:04.797 Colin: jumpstart, government, 00:21:04.892 --> 00:21:05.017 Chris: you 00:21:05.472 --> 00:21:05.922 CJ: Yeah. 00:21:06.732 --> 00:21:08.742 Solving all the, all the world's needs here. 00:21:10.857 --> 00:21:12.677 Colin: just a little bit of device and you know, 00:21:13.637 --> 00:21:14.357 a little bit of 00:21:14.547 --> 00:21:18.297 CJ: when you, when you deploy with Hatch Box, like have you run into anything where 00:21:18.297 --> 00:21:21.657 people have to be like HIPAA compliant or have like any like crazy compliance 00:21:21.972 --> 00:21:24.522 Chris: People have asked and it's pretty much like, we're 00:21:24.522 --> 00:21:26.652 not gonna be HIPAA compliant. 00:21:26.752 --> 00:21:30.472 I'm pretty sure like, it's such a vague set of rules too. 00:21:30.472 --> 00:21:33.592 It's like hard to know that you're really compliant. 00:21:33.592 --> 00:21:37.362 So you probably need to go through some company that can certify that you're 00:21:38.302 --> 00:21:40.042 actually HIPAA compliant and stuff. 00:21:40.042 --> 00:21:44.662 And it was like, I'm one person you know, I don't need to do this for 00:21:44.842 --> 00:21:46.692 a one-off customer, unfortunately. 00:21:46.912 --> 00:21:51.052 And like a Heroku, I, I looked into it at one point cuz a couple 00:21:51.052 --> 00:21:52.732 customers had reached out about that. 00:21:52.732 --> 00:21:55.522 And I was like, looking at Heroku's. 00:21:55.822 --> 00:21:58.462 Version is like, starts at $2,000 a month. 00:21:58.462 --> 00:22:00.202 And I was like, oh, that's that's tempting. 00:22:00.652 --> 00:22:03.652 But it kind of brings you back to like the points that like Basecamp 00:22:03.657 --> 00:22:07.642 has made where they're like, we don't wanna make a oversized amount 00:22:07.642 --> 00:22:09.562 of money from one or two customers. 00:22:09.562 --> 00:22:13.642 Cuz if they ever leave us and like our business goes out the window, like 00:22:13.642 --> 00:22:16.702 we lose half our business or more. 00:22:17.032 --> 00:22:18.562 And then what do we do? 00:22:18.562 --> 00:22:21.442 And we gotta fire all these people or whatever. 00:22:21.442 --> 00:22:24.882 Like we're we're un like diversified. 00:22:25.152 --> 00:22:29.772 So that was kind of the same thing where I was like, you know what, we could end up 00:22:29.772 --> 00:22:34.692 with a few customers that are paying us, you know, most of our customers are pretty 00:22:34.692 --> 00:22:36.942 small, under a hundred dollars a month. 00:22:36.942 --> 00:22:42.072 And then you come in with a couple that are like 2, 3, 4, $5,000 a month. 00:22:42.072 --> 00:22:47.082 And then if they disappear it's like, oh, that's a lot of customers to replace them. 00:22:47.712 --> 00:22:49.632 Colin: Or they start throwing their weight around, 00:22:49.822 --> 00:22:50.112 Chris: yeah. 00:22:50.142 --> 00:22:53.622 Colin: Like they have other requests that you have to do cuz 00:22:53.622 --> 00:22:54.732 they're paying you more money. 00:22:55.332 --> 00:22:58.872 Chris: And then it's basically you're a consultant company for these two, 00:22:58.872 --> 00:23:02.592 three big customers and you're not really running your own ship anymore. 00:23:02.592 --> 00:23:04.542 You're just getting dragged behind their boat. 00:23:04.632 --> 00:23:07.632 And it's like you're not really independent anymore 00:23:07.637 --> 00:23:08.832 running your own company. 00:23:08.957 --> 00:23:09.377 CJ: Mm-hmm. 00:23:09.912 --> 00:23:11.732 Chris: that's pretty much where I left it. 00:23:12.012 --> 00:23:15.912 It was like, yeah, you guys are better served at Heroku or whatever, 00:23:15.912 --> 00:23:18.852 like, we're not gonna provide that much better of a service or whatever. 00:23:18.972 --> 00:23:24.492 But yeah, somebody was trying to use AWS gov cloud and other things 00:23:24.492 --> 00:23:30.252 and like, cool, but you know, it's, it's just not worth it. 00:23:30.642 --> 00:23:37.242 So I'd rather and I like helping the, the small like Jason Fried and DH h 00:23:37.242 --> 00:23:41.442 just post like tweets and blog posts about like helping the underdogs. 00:23:41.442 --> 00:23:44.532 And I really like, I like that a lot. 00:23:44.537 --> 00:23:49.542 I want to help the, that's why Hatch Box and Jumpstart and Go Rails all exist like. 00:23:50.487 --> 00:23:55.767 And rails, I feel like is why I'm, I like Rails and Laravel and things like that 00:23:55.767 --> 00:23:58.917 because it does help the underdog succeed. 00:23:58.917 --> 00:24:02.337 And it can be one or two people building cool stuff. 00:24:02.667 --> 00:24:07.347 And like, you know, even if they don't build a company that can employ 50 00:24:07.352 --> 00:24:12.327 people, who cares if they ever like having a wonderful living by themselves 00:24:12.327 --> 00:24:14.817 or with a small team, they win. 00:24:14.997 --> 00:24:16.137 Like, that's amazing. 00:24:16.197 --> 00:24:17.397 That can be life changing. 00:24:17.397 --> 00:24:20.637 So, you know, they're the underdogs and I really enjoy 00:24:20.642 --> 00:24:22.557 that sort of, that sort of stuff. 00:24:22.972 --> 00:24:23.397 CJ: Totally. 00:24:23.427 --> 00:24:23.697 Yeah. 00:24:23.697 --> 00:24:26.907 I think that that was one of my favorite parts of my job at Stripe 00:24:27.157 --> 00:24:31.927 was just helping people earn their first, like money online is, I think 00:24:31.927 --> 00:24:33.997 that was, it was so, so powerful. 00:24:34.247 --> 00:24:36.127 Chris: this is the best feeling in the world. 00:24:36.187 --> 00:24:42.367 Like, I, I tell the story regularly, but like, I with a 00:24:42.372 --> 00:24:45.247 friend built this little not so. 00:24:46.297 --> 00:24:50.077 Not so like compliant with the Apple terms of service, but he was 00:24:50.082 --> 00:24:55.537 like buying these templates for iOS apps for like a Flappy Bird clone. 00:24:55.537 --> 00:24:59.707 And then he changed the graphics and make it like Flappy Panda or 00:24:59.707 --> 00:25:05.412 something stupid thing and like put his add network IDs in there. 00:25:05.412 --> 00:25:08.292 And then the only way he could actually make money was like 00:25:09.102 --> 00:25:11.412 finding people to review his game. 00:25:11.412 --> 00:25:15.432 So it got rated in the app store enough to like get some downloads 00:25:15.432 --> 00:25:18.222 and get some people playing it and get, you know, ad views. 00:25:18.342 --> 00:25:23.292 And so he had these Facebook groups who were, people were sharing their apps 00:25:23.292 --> 00:25:24.732 with each other and reviewing them. 00:25:25.032 --> 00:25:26.892 So we like built this little rails app. 00:25:27.102 --> 00:25:31.242 And you would pay $5 for every app you wanted to put in the pool 00:25:31.572 --> 00:25:34.752 and then you would review other people's, and yours would get. 00:25:35.112 --> 00:25:39.252 Pushed up the queue, so then other people would review yours first and then you 00:25:39.252 --> 00:25:46.142 get this little review group going and we made like 30 grand on that, but before it 00:25:46.142 --> 00:25:48.392 kind of got shut down by Apple and stuff. 00:25:48.842 --> 00:25:54.932 But it was like the first time we made like $25 and I think you, we had just 00:25:54.932 --> 00:25:59.882 used PayPal for it back in the day, cuz this is a pretty long time ago, but 00:26:00.272 --> 00:26:04.592 I was going to the movies, I sit down and it's like, turn your phone off. 00:26:04.592 --> 00:26:08.762 And I like opened my phone and I see a notification that I just made 00:26:08.762 --> 00:26:11.762 $25 and I was like, wait a minute. 00:26:12.152 --> 00:26:13.352 I didn't do any work. 00:26:13.922 --> 00:26:15.872 And I'm the movie's free. 00:26:16.262 --> 00:26:17.162 Like what? 00:26:17.222 --> 00:26:18.362 This is nuts. 00:26:18.992 --> 00:26:23.582 And like I was, you know, always trading time for money until that point. 00:26:23.582 --> 00:26:28.172 And then I was like, oh my God, like I'm sleeping and I woke up 00:26:28.172 --> 00:26:29.282 and I made a hundred dollars. 00:26:29.282 --> 00:26:30.362 Like, what is this? 00:26:30.362 --> 00:26:31.592 This is insane. 00:26:31.932 --> 00:26:37.412 So that, yeah, I, that feeling is wild. 00:26:37.412 --> 00:26:40.052 If you've never experienced that before and you like wake 00:26:40.052 --> 00:26:43.322 up and made money, it is insane. 00:26:43.382 --> 00:26:47.482 And that's, I want as many people to like experience that as possible. 00:26:47.487 --> 00:26:51.712 Cuz it, it starts to really just like change your, per your perspective 00:26:51.712 --> 00:26:56.357 or you're not, You're not trying to do things trading your time anymore, 00:26:56.357 --> 00:26:57.767 which has like a natural limit. 00:26:57.767 --> 00:27:01.817 You can only work so many hours a week and you're only gonna ever be able 00:27:01.817 --> 00:27:04.697 to charge so many dollars per hour. 00:27:04.847 --> 00:27:07.727 Like as a developer, you might get lucky and be able to charge 00:27:07.787 --> 00:27:09.407 two 50 an hour or something crazy. 00:27:10.187 --> 00:27:13.217 But you can still only work 40 hours a week. 00:27:13.217 --> 00:27:15.167 So like you're limited there. 00:27:15.167 --> 00:27:19.337 But if you're doing something like our Screencast at Go Rails, like I can make 00:27:19.342 --> 00:27:24.647 one video, 10,000 people could watch it and pay 19 bucks a month for it and 00:27:24.647 --> 00:27:27.587 like, I only had to do it one time. 00:27:27.587 --> 00:27:32.357 But that same value was able to be like reused for everybody. 00:27:32.957 --> 00:27:35.747 So it just like starts to. 00:27:37.007 --> 00:27:41.837 Open your eyes to those, like those business ideas that are 00:27:42.047 --> 00:27:44.147 scalable like that or whatever. 00:27:44.147 --> 00:27:49.247 And then, then you start to realize like, that's where people really make a lot. 00:27:49.457 --> 00:27:52.457 They like figure out something like that that can be done 00:27:52.997 --> 00:27:54.658 without trading time for it. 00:27:54.797 --> 00:27:58.640 Colin: I have a follow up on that that I'm curious about because I'm like 00:27:58.700 --> 00:28:04.040 having previously been a consultant, like you become habituated to trading 00:28:04.040 --> 00:28:08.870 time for money, and I know people who start to think about their time as money. 00:28:09.130 --> 00:28:11.900 And so now that you've kind of disconnected your time from your 00:28:11.905 --> 00:28:15.895 money, like do you ever find yourself like thinking about like how much 00:28:16.195 --> 00:28:18.595 like, oh, I just spent eight hours on this and I could have been made. 00:28:18.600 --> 00:28:18.775 Like, 00:28:18.955 --> 00:28:21.355 have you been able to separate yourself from that? 00:28:22.325 --> 00:28:26.400 Chris: So now, we built our house and we have a lawn now that I have to mow 00:28:26.400 --> 00:28:31.170 that takes a lot longer and we have a pool that needs maintenance every week 00:28:31.175 --> 00:28:36.510 cuz we got trees around and it's like random leaves and other crap and frogs 00:28:36.510 --> 00:28:42.040 and I found a turtle in our pool and whatever, and it's like, okay, if I was 00:28:42.330 --> 00:28:47.460 doing all of that, I'd have to spend four hours on every weekend mowing the lawn. 00:28:47.880 --> 00:28:51.300 I'd have to b be spending at least that during the week, like 00:28:51.360 --> 00:28:53.070 cleaning the pool and whatever else. 00:28:53.400 --> 00:28:58.620 So like I've started very much now being like, all right, I can pay somebody to 00:28:58.620 --> 00:29:02.310 do that, get that time back and I can. 00:29:02.537 --> 00:29:07.427 I can choose to spend that time trying to make more stuff, or I can 00:29:07.427 --> 00:29:11.687 like spend that time with my son or whatever and like, choose that. 00:29:11.687 --> 00:29:15.797 That's like a, I'm gonna pay the money so I get time to spend with the family 00:29:15.802 --> 00:29:20.057 instead of like, okay, it's worth this much money and I could go back and 00:29:20.057 --> 00:29:25.337 like record another course in that eight hours I save every week and like 00:29:25.337 --> 00:29:28.607 in the three months maybe, you know, publish a new course or whatever. 00:29:28.997 --> 00:29:30.647 Sometimes I think about it that way. 00:29:30.857 --> 00:29:34.427 It does help me rationalize, like spending more money on things. 00:29:34.427 --> 00:29:37.817 But you also like, at a certain point probably make enough 00:29:37.822 --> 00:29:40.637 money that you can do that. 00:29:40.697 --> 00:29:44.597 And so it's like, it's, it's one of those benefits where it's 00:29:44.597 --> 00:29:48.887 like if you, once you get to that size, you're like actually now. 00:29:50.207 --> 00:29:54.467 I'm making enough money, I could just shovel it into savings or whatever. 00:29:54.467 --> 00:29:58.967 But why don't, my parents were always really bad about this, like saving 00:29:58.972 --> 00:30:02.177 money and not actually spending it to enjoy their life in the moment. 00:30:02.537 --> 00:30:03.857 They're always just saving it. 00:30:03.887 --> 00:30:08.797 And then like my dad had colon cancer years ago, and it was like 00:30:09.267 --> 00:30:11.577 all of a sudden he almost died. 00:30:11.607 --> 00:30:15.717 He's recovered and he's fine now, but like he almost died and they're 00:30:15.722 --> 00:30:18.582 like, Holy crap, life is short. 00:30:18.612 --> 00:30:21.762 We actually need to, like, we've been talking about traveling, like we've 00:30:21.762 --> 00:30:23.082 been, never been to New York City. 00:30:23.082 --> 00:30:24.642 Like we should go do that. 00:30:24.672 --> 00:30:26.022 It's not that expensive. 00:30:26.352 --> 00:30:29.472 Like, why didn't we never do, why didn't we never make the time to do that? 00:30:29.472 --> 00:30:33.582 So they like are doing those things now and like it was great for me 00:30:33.587 --> 00:30:36.852 to see that when I was younger and be like, yeah, what the hell? 00:30:36.852 --> 00:30:40.062 Like, I'm 25, my dad almost died. 00:30:40.452 --> 00:30:44.532 I don't want to like be 50 and then regret that I didn't do those things. 00:30:45.072 --> 00:30:48.762 So, you know, like I'm just trying to spend as much time as I can 00:30:48.762 --> 00:30:52.152 with my son when he's little and I don't want to be the dad that's 00:30:52.152 --> 00:30:55.062 like always working and whatever. 00:30:55.212 --> 00:30:59.065 So yeah, it's, it's, you know, a tool. 00:30:59.245 --> 00:31:02.725 That's how I try to think about it now is like the money's a tool. 00:31:03.055 --> 00:31:04.135 Allocate it where you want. 00:31:05.005 --> 00:31:09.445 You're in a here in tech, so chances are you'll never really have a trouble finding 00:31:09.445 --> 00:31:11.875 another job in like worst case scenarios. 00:31:11.875 --> 00:31:15.775 So it's not like you have to shovel everything into retirement 00:31:15.775 --> 00:31:17.125 and be scared about it. 00:31:17.185 --> 00:31:21.415 But you know, you should still do some of that, but you should also 00:31:21.415 --> 00:31:22.825 enjoy your life in the moment too. 00:31:22.975 --> 00:31:25.015 But what are you gonna say, cj? 00:31:25.615 --> 00:31:28.135 CJ: Oh, well the first thing I was gonna say is like, soon enough, 00:31:28.135 --> 00:31:31.045 your son, you could just make him mow the lawn and clean the pool. 00:31:31.385 --> 00:31:32.315 But also like, 00:31:33.155 --> 00:31:35.525 it's like, yeah, I mean, that's gonna be a few years, right? 00:31:35.675 --> 00:31:36.245 Yeah. 00:31:36.415 --> 00:31:40.515 The other thing before I forget is I want to, to recommend the Die With Zero book. 00:31:41.335 --> 00:31:41.786 It's so good. 00:31:41.815 --> 00:31:47.095 And like, the whole point of the book is basically like, try to Yeah. 00:31:47.125 --> 00:31:51.385 Like squeeze every ounce out of your financial life as possible so that 00:31:51.385 --> 00:31:55.945 you don't end up like, with a bunch of money in the bank dead and like 00:31:55.945 --> 00:31:57.925 not have any experiences or whatever. 00:31:57.945 --> 00:31:59.915 Obviously you gotta like, have a balance, but, 00:32:00.715 --> 00:32:03.205 Chris: Yeah, you, you need to be able to retire at some point, so 00:32:03.205 --> 00:32:07.075 you need some retirement money and it's good to plan for that. 00:32:07.075 --> 00:32:10.165 But it's also like you might not make it to retirement. 00:32:10.170 --> 00:32:14.695 And then what was the point of having 5 million in the bank by the time you're 00:32:14.700 --> 00:32:19.465 78 and you can't use any of that cuz you're stuck at home or something. 00:32:19.465 --> 00:32:19.645 It's 00:32:19.870 --> 00:32:22.030 Colin: And you didn't experience any of those things that 00:32:22.030 --> 00:32:25.930 you wanted to do, Right, You're like, oh, only when all this stuff is super 00:32:25.935 --> 00:32:28.210 perfect, I'll go take that vacation and 00:32:28.735 --> 00:32:29.455 Chris: Yeah. 00:32:29.545 --> 00:32:29.725 Yeah. 00:32:29.730 --> 00:32:34.075 My grandparents did that and they went to like Russia and stuff, but as they 00:32:34.075 --> 00:32:38.655 were after they were retired, so it was like they couldn't really walk very far. 00:32:39.035 --> 00:32:44.635 And you know, just, and my grandpa was a farmer so he was like beat up from 00:32:44.935 --> 00:32:48.535 doing all the stuff outside in the farm for years and years and years. 00:32:48.540 --> 00:32:50.485 And my dad's kind of the same way. 00:32:50.485 --> 00:32:54.625 He's got a bum knee and whatever from doing all that too. 00:32:54.625 --> 00:32:55.496 And I'm like, you know what? 00:32:55.765 --> 00:32:56.216 It makes it. 00:32:57.070 --> 00:33:02.230 Virtually impossible for you guys to like go explore cities now without like, you 00:33:02.230 --> 00:33:04.840 know, riding in a car to go around a lot. 00:33:04.840 --> 00:33:07.330 And I'm like, I want to go wander around. 00:33:07.750 --> 00:33:11.560 I had the most fun wandering around like New York City and just any place. 00:33:11.920 --> 00:33:14.000 So it's like, do it now while you can 00:33:14.595 --> 00:33:15.015 CJ: Mm-hmm. 00:33:15.250 --> 00:33:17.770 Chris: your kids on those experiences, cuz that will really 00:33:17.770 --> 00:33:19.510 like open their eyes to things. 00:33:19.773 --> 00:33:23.303 CJ: It totally changes your perspective too about when you think about 00:33:23.308 --> 00:33:28.013 how, oh, in the future things are gonna probably cost way more money. 00:33:28.283 --> 00:33:28.463 Right? 00:33:28.463 --> 00:33:31.883 And so you think, oh, maybe like over time my expenses are gonna increase. 00:33:32.273 --> 00:33:37.613 But the counterintuitive reality is that as you get older, you can't actually 00:33:37.613 --> 00:33:41.153 spend the money as easily because, because of these physical limitations 00:33:41.153 --> 00:33:43.193 that your body has as it's breaking down. 00:33:43.193 --> 00:33:47.573 And so like when you are in your fifties, you'll be able to spend a lot of money, 00:33:47.573 --> 00:33:50.723 and then you'll be able to spend less in your sixties, even less in seventies. 00:33:50.723 --> 00:33:52.733 In like, like even less in your 00:33:53.423 --> 00:33:56.393 Chris: Your healthcare expenses through the roof, though, 00:33:56.633 --> 00:33:57.623 CJ: True, that's true. 00:33:57.743 --> 00:33:58.013 Yeah. 00:33:58.043 --> 00:33:59.723 But like, yeah, if 00:33:59.903 --> 00:34:00.623 Chris: at least here in the 00:34:00.653 --> 00:34:02.003 CJ: fixed income Yeah. 00:34:02.008 --> 00:34:04.463 Stuck in, stuck at home or whatever, and you're not actually 00:34:04.463 --> 00:34:06.233 going, going anywhere, like, 00:34:06.833 --> 00:34:07.463 Chris: Yeah. 00:34:08.393 --> 00:34:08.633 Yeah, 00:34:08.633 --> 00:34:12.013 it's it's one of those things that I was like always. 00:34:13.068 --> 00:34:18.408 Every time I had a job with a salary, I was working on the side to like, just 00:34:18.408 --> 00:34:22.878 go build something because I knew like the only real career for the most part 00:34:22.928 --> 00:34:26.858 that's uncapped is like sales where you get basically free reign to make 00:34:26.863 --> 00:34:30.818 as much money as you want, as long as you bring in the business and whatever. 00:34:30.823 --> 00:34:35.288 Then you get paid the commissions and stuff and you, you have no real cap. 00:34:35.288 --> 00:34:39.428 You, you have sort of a minimum, but it's kind of like being a, you know, 00:34:39.428 --> 00:34:43.268 a bartender or waiter and it's like you get this like really, really low 00:34:43.508 --> 00:34:48.518 salary or minimum wage and then you, you're free to be as charming and you 00:34:48.518 --> 00:34:51.908 know, as good as you want at the job and you can make as much as you want. 00:34:52.478 --> 00:34:59.198 And that doesn't really generally exist in a lot of software developer careers. 00:34:59.203 --> 00:35:03.188 You got a salary and, you know, they, they can't tie your work 00:35:03.308 --> 00:35:06.128 directly to revenue that comes in like they can with the salesperson. 00:35:06.948 --> 00:35:12.313 So it was always like interesting to me to like, At least do consulting instead 00:35:12.313 --> 00:35:17.323 because then I could choose to work my butt off and do quarter million a year or 00:35:17.323 --> 00:35:19.843 half a million a year or something crazy. 00:35:20.203 --> 00:35:24.973 Cause it was entirely up to how much time do I put in, how good 00:35:25.123 --> 00:35:28.723 can I be at sales and actually get the work done and everything. 00:35:28.823 --> 00:35:32.983 And you know, sky's the limit, but at a certain point you're like, well, 00:35:33.853 --> 00:35:35.803 I can only do so much as one person. 00:35:36.403 --> 00:35:41.773 And like in the past couple years with Go Rails, like I've been on my own for what, 00:35:41.773 --> 00:35:47.143 seven, eight years when Colin joined and it was, it, it was coming to the point 00:35:47.143 --> 00:35:50.533 of like, I'm burning myself out trying to do all this work myself, but I've 00:35:50.533 --> 00:35:54.433 kind of hit my natural limit of, and I had a chip on my shoulder just to figure 00:35:54.438 --> 00:35:57.163 out like, how far can I get by myself? 00:35:57.193 --> 00:36:02.863 And it was like, Crazy numbers, you know, per year, but with one person. 00:36:02.863 --> 00:36:07.213 And I was like, this is sweet, but this is also unsustainable. 00:36:07.213 --> 00:36:08.833 Like this is great. 00:36:08.923 --> 00:36:16.683 But then you get to a point of now your decision is, do I shut things down and 00:36:16.933 --> 00:36:24.013 stop and cut things out and get my life back, or do I change what I do and hire 00:36:24.013 --> 00:36:26.893 a team and we continue building stuff. 00:36:27.733 --> 00:36:32.383 And you have to think too, like, I've been doing this for eight years. 00:36:32.388 --> 00:36:36.373 Do I want to do this for another eight years or 20 years or whatever? 00:36:36.853 --> 00:36:41.053 And I'm not really bored of building stuff and rails and, you know, 00:36:41.053 --> 00:36:42.673 helping the community and whatever. 00:36:43.153 --> 00:36:43.373 So. 00:36:44.348 --> 00:36:49.838 The, the appeal was more to like, well, I guess if we have a team, then we can 00:36:49.838 --> 00:36:54.818 do more stuff and we can accomplish more things and contribute even more. 00:36:55.208 --> 00:37:00.308 But if I, like, am just myself, I gotta shut things down and like simplify and 00:37:00.308 --> 00:37:04.298 like, just focus on the, maybe the stuff with the best roi, which maybe isn't the 00:37:04.298 --> 00:37:06.008 thing that helps the community the most. 00:37:06.638 --> 00:37:10.958 And so it was kind of like conflicting itself if I was to go that route. 00:37:10.958 --> 00:37:15.518 So I ended up like, all right, my job's gonna change, becoming more of a manager 00:37:15.518 --> 00:37:17.948 and you know, a leader in the company. 00:37:18.138 --> 00:37:22.908 But also it might make the business more like sellable in the future where it 00:37:22.908 --> 00:37:24.678 was a hundred percent dependent on me. 00:37:25.188 --> 00:37:29.988 I now have really an asset that I could sell, that someone could take over. 00:37:30.858 --> 00:37:34.158 They could hire teachers and record stuff and keep doing the 00:37:34.163 --> 00:37:38.038 Go Rail screencast and like, this is now a business that's not just. 00:37:38.898 --> 00:37:42.798 Me that isn't really valuable for anybody else unless they hire me as 00:37:42.798 --> 00:37:46.938 an employee, which would not work because why would I want to do the same 00:37:46.938 --> 00:37:50.958 thing for somebody else if I'm already doing it for, for myself, just fine. 00:37:51.468 --> 00:37:55.368 So that was, there was a lot of different decisions there in the 00:37:55.368 --> 00:37:59.928 last couple years that made it, having a kid makes it very obvious, 00:37:59.933 --> 00:38:01.668 like, which path you want to take? 00:38:01.808 --> 00:38:05.168 Because I just kicked the can down the road for like five years just 00:38:05.173 --> 00:38:07.448 thinking about like, what do I do? 00:38:07.628 --> 00:38:09.188 I don't know nothing. 00:38:09.518 --> 00:38:12.608 There was not enough pros or cons for one way or the other. 00:38:12.608 --> 00:38:17.528 I'm just stuck in a limbo of like, comfortableness where things aren't 00:38:17.528 --> 00:38:19.118 so bad, you have to shut it down. 00:38:19.118 --> 00:38:23.588 Things aren't so good that you're like, I am going to just throw everything at this. 00:38:23.918 --> 00:38:25.568 I'm just like, ah, just keep chugging along. 00:38:25.568 --> 00:38:26.798 It's, it's going fine. 00:38:26.798 --> 00:38:31.188 Keeps growing and you're like in a weird spot there where it's like things are. 00:38:31.853 --> 00:38:32.573 Decent. 00:38:32.783 --> 00:38:37.223 Pretty good, but they're not like blowing up out of control where I 00:38:37.223 --> 00:38:41.243 have tons of money and have to go hire people and grow the business. 00:38:41.243 --> 00:38:43.013 But I al it also doesn't suck. 00:38:43.403 --> 00:38:45.533 And it's not a point where you're like, why am I doing this? 00:38:45.533 --> 00:38:47.483 Let's just shut it down and do something else. 00:38:47.813 --> 00:38:52.733 So that took a long time, but I think it, it eventually got to the point 00:38:52.733 --> 00:39:00.083 where it was like, it makes plenty of money and I need some, some quiet times. 00:39:00.083 --> 00:39:03.503 Some like just, you know, share the burden with somebody else. 00:39:03.583 --> 00:39:04.874 You know, and, and so that's what. 00:39:05.618 --> 00:39:09.148 I ended up doing in the past couple years, and it's been great. 00:39:09.178 --> 00:39:14.038 It's just now like we doubled the company from two to four in February and that's 00:39:14.088 --> 00:39:16.278 that's a big move, a very big move. 00:39:16.278 --> 00:39:20.988 And what went from, like, most of our meetings in the past were basically like 00:39:20.988 --> 00:39:26.238 this where we just hop on two pool and chat for whatever, like 15 minutes or 00:39:26.238 --> 00:39:28.818 an hour or the whole day about anything. 00:39:28.878 --> 00:39:30.678 And we always knew what everybody was doing. 00:39:31.368 --> 00:39:34.848 And now it's four people and it's like, well, you're working on this, I haven't 00:39:34.848 --> 00:39:36.678 talked to you for like three days. 00:39:36.978 --> 00:39:41.098 And like, it is a totally different experience now with, with four people. 00:39:41.278 --> 00:39:47.218 So I'm learning all of that and trying to be, you know, cognizant about what 00:39:47.218 --> 00:39:51.958 do I need to get better at and how do we become a well-oiled machine? 00:39:51.958 --> 00:39:56.848 And just now you got more personalities and you know, people with different. 00:39:57.118 --> 00:40:01.588 Responsibilities and other time zones and all these different things to figure 00:40:01.588 --> 00:40:05.608 out how do we all work together well and efficiently and make sure that 00:40:05.608 --> 00:40:10.828 everybody has their own space to just go do work without, you know, like I 00:40:10.828 --> 00:40:15.479 need a lot of quiet time to just poke around at a problem and explore it. 00:40:15.484 --> 00:40:20.308 And it may not turn out to be anything, but you know, I gotta go 00:40:20.638 --> 00:40:25.648 just mindlessly think through something by myself without interruptions. 00:40:25.648 --> 00:40:29.458 And that is like a lot more rare now. 00:40:29.458 --> 00:40:33.598 So it's interesting to like see that and maybe over time I'm not 00:40:33.598 --> 00:40:36.358 contributing code as much or something. 00:40:36.778 --> 00:40:41.203 Or like D HH is kind of like, At least in Rails as an example, he 00:40:41.203 --> 00:40:44.863 like shows up, does a whole bunch of stuff, and then disappears for like a 00:40:44.863 --> 00:40:49.963 year or something and does that again and kind of like, you know, does it 00:40:50.233 --> 00:40:51.733 when it makes sense and whatever. 00:40:51.733 --> 00:40:55.633 So I don't know if I'll end up in that situation or whatever, but it's, it's 00:40:55.633 --> 00:41:01.903 interesting to, to go through this change and actually like, have to grow things. 00:41:01.903 --> 00:41:07.178 But I want to keep it slow and, you know, steady, but, It's it's good. 00:41:07.178 --> 00:41:10.508 I think it's gonna be very good in the long run, but also it's one of those 00:41:10.508 --> 00:41:14.948 two where if you make mistakes, you make mistakes and you can like reset. 00:41:15.188 --> 00:41:15.848 It's okay. 00:41:15.998 --> 00:41:19.948 Like if you hired people like Adam Wathan did that for tailwind and 00:41:19.948 --> 00:41:22.188 like realized it wasn't working. 00:41:22.588 --> 00:41:23.189 He hated it. 00:41:23.194 --> 00:41:27.208 And, you know, pulled the plug and shrunk the company back down 00:41:27.208 --> 00:41:31.968 and, and was like I have to, like, it's my company, it's my life. 00:41:32.508 --> 00:41:33.858 I can make it whatever I want. 00:41:33.918 --> 00:41:38.128 So if I'm not happy, like I need to go fix it and just not deal with it. 00:41:38.128 --> 00:41:41.908 Like, this is, this is my life, so I wanna make sure I'm enjoying it. 00:41:42.763 --> 00:41:46.413 Colin: We've all had startup experiences where, if you have investors, you 00:41:46.413 --> 00:41:50.013 don't necessarily always get to go slow and steady like you're 00:41:50.013 --> 00:41:53.253 talking about and seeing what Adam's doing, seeing what you're doing. 00:41:53.258 --> 00:41:55.123 Like, I mean we got to hang out at Rails Conf. 00:41:55.353 --> 00:41:59.523 It was fun to see people react to seeing Go Rails, like you know, the whole 00:41:59.528 --> 00:42:04.173 four four of you, it's like you have a bigger footprint now and honestly 00:42:04.173 --> 00:42:05.793 there's some resiliency there too, right? 00:42:05.793 --> 00:42:09.963 Like if you were sick, go Rails still has three people who can work on stuff. 00:42:09.993 --> 00:42:14.073 It's not just a thing you can sell, it's a thing that, you know, doesn't 00:42:14.073 --> 00:42:17.763 need to have Chris show up every single day in order for it to exist. 00:42:17.823 --> 00:42:20.683 Chris: I mean that was, that was just before Rails Comp. 00:42:20.683 --> 00:42:22.793 When I went on vacation for nine days. 00:42:24.013 --> 00:42:26.593 I didn't touch the computer for nine days. 00:42:26.623 --> 00:42:31.303 Like, that was the first time in probably nine years that, that I had 00:42:31.308 --> 00:42:33.973 that long of a stint without working. 00:42:34.213 --> 00:42:35.293 It was crazy. 00:42:35.983 --> 00:42:40.423 And now, yeah, I got my bodyguards at Rails Comp and whatever, so, 00:42:41.089 --> 00:42:44.499 CJ: Is there, like I assume there's, there's like a back channel that you have 00:42:44.499 --> 00:42:46.649 with all these other business owners. 00:42:47.589 --> 00:42:50.769 Do you have like a, a chat thread going with a bunch of ballers that are 00:42:50.769 --> 00:42:54.940 like, oh, what are you doing, you know, with your marketing this month, or 00:42:56.704 --> 00:43:00.574 Chris: a few people, but it's not really like, and, and I probably need 00:43:00.574 --> 00:43:04.834 to make it something more formal like that, like a mastermind or something 00:43:04.834 --> 00:43:10.324 where we either just have a discord and we just use that, or I don't know. 00:43:10.324 --> 00:43:14.124 We've tried, I've tried a few masterminds or it's like a weekly 00:43:14.464 --> 00:43:18.964 meeting or even biweekly and it's like, I don't know, we're a small business. 00:43:18.964 --> 00:43:21.034 A lot doesn't happen in two weeks. 00:43:21.034 --> 00:43:27.294 Like nothing major changes that often, so you really, yeah, it's, it's kind of 00:43:27.294 --> 00:43:33.144 tough too, cuz some of the, the learnings you get from, if somebody's got a company. 00:43:33.759 --> 00:43:39.069 That's, say 10 times where you are, if you're like building an agency, what you 00:43:39.069 --> 00:43:44.109 really, you need to be really in with the person who's like 10 times ahead of you 00:43:44.139 --> 00:43:48.759 so you can see like, oh, we're doing these things and that really doesn't make sense. 00:43:48.839 --> 00:43:51.739 But oftentimes, like they're not gonna get any benefit from talking to you. 00:43:51.959 --> 00:43:55.709 So it can be interesting to try and find the right balance. 00:43:55.709 --> 00:44:01.289 Where as long as you can provide something in return value wise 00:44:01.349 --> 00:44:05.609 those really work out well because you can pick up a lot of things. 00:44:05.909 --> 00:44:09.959 It can be not as useful if everybody's kind of on the same 00:44:09.959 --> 00:44:12.659 level and it's like, we're all here. 00:44:12.719 --> 00:44:15.939 We're not sure how we get to there, but here's what I tried. 00:44:15.939 --> 00:44:18.519 And they can still be useful definitely. 00:44:18.519 --> 00:44:22.449 But I feel like it's just kind of more like you really want to see the 00:44:22.449 --> 00:44:26.350 person who's like two steps ahead of you, but it's maybe harder for you 00:44:26.529 --> 00:44:29.184 to like, Provide anything in return. 00:44:29.184 --> 00:44:31.284 Cuz they're like, yeah, you're, you're behind me. 00:44:31.284 --> 00:44:34.464 I need the, I need the guy 10 steps ahead of me. 00:44:34.784 --> 00:44:34.929 CJ: Mm-hmm. 00:44:35.919 --> 00:44:37.509 Sometimes it's energy, though, just like 00:44:37.509 --> 00:44:42.669 being pumped and like being excited and talking about new, shiny things, and I 00:44:42.669 --> 00:44:46.149 mean, I think that's probably valuable for those, the folks that are ahead. 00:44:46.704 --> 00:44:47.274 Chris: yeah. 00:44:47.334 --> 00:44:48.834 That is definitely a lot of fun. 00:44:49.284 --> 00:44:49.704 Yeah. 00:44:50.244 --> 00:44:53.634 So, yeah, I, I like that for sure. 00:44:53.639 --> 00:44:58.254 And it's, it's a way to, sometimes you just don't have anybody who's 00:44:58.309 --> 00:45:00.109 Understands the problems that you have. 00:45:00.109 --> 00:45:04.969 Like, okay, if you're worried about paying salaries, like you can't talk to 00:45:04.969 --> 00:45:09.289 employees about that, like you need to talk to another business owner or whatever 00:45:09.294 --> 00:45:13.639 that understands like, oh God, yeah, we had this issue and like we ended up 00:45:13.644 --> 00:45:17.779 opening a line of credit with the bank to like smooth things out over time. 00:45:17.779 --> 00:45:21.619 And it's like, oh, I never even would've thought that I could do that or 00:45:21.619 --> 00:45:24.049 whatever, and that makes a lot of sense. 00:45:24.049 --> 00:45:25.609 I'll go do that and try that. 00:45:25.609 --> 00:45:29.509 And so sometimes, yeah, there's really helpful things and just 00:45:29.509 --> 00:45:36.984 the energy of like, you have peers to, you know, vent to, or whatever 00:45:36.984 --> 00:45:38.814 it is, be excited with and stuff. 00:45:38.964 --> 00:45:42.654 In general, like the education space is just like rough. 00:45:42.714 --> 00:45:46.734 So I feel like that's not everybody I end up talking to in that, 00:45:46.794 --> 00:45:48.054 that's doing something similar. 00:45:48.054 --> 00:45:49.584 It's like, yeah, this just sucks. 00:45:49.914 --> 00:45:53.094 Have you listened to the hackers Incorporated that Adam Wathan 00:45:53.114 --> 00:45:57.054 and Ben Orenstein are doing, they're, they nail a lot of those. 00:45:57.054 --> 00:46:00.384 Like it feels like they're talking to me when I'm listening to that cuz I'm like, 00:46:00.834 --> 00:46:06.054 everything Adam struggles with basically doing an education business even though 00:46:06.054 --> 00:46:08.814 it's like a open source CSS thing. 00:46:09.084 --> 00:46:11.964 It's very similar to what we do in all the struggles we've had. 00:46:12.084 --> 00:46:17.064 Cuz the thing that made Go Rails like unsustainable for the longest time was 00:46:17.064 --> 00:46:21.594 like, oh, I want, people are asking me to do these videos for these topics. 00:46:22.314 --> 00:46:27.834 So I try and cater to those and like, I don't have any interest in doing like a, 00:46:27.954 --> 00:46:32.154 a backbone js and rails api, whatever. 00:46:32.584 --> 00:46:37.294 But people were asking for it and I was like trying to accommodate everybody and 00:46:37.294 --> 00:46:41.194 like I'd burn myself out cause I gotta go teach myself backbone and learn all 00:46:41.194 --> 00:46:46.354 the ins and outs and then in 40 hours still may not really understand it very 00:46:46.354 --> 00:46:48.394 well to the point where I can teach it. 00:46:48.694 --> 00:46:51.334 Or I might end up teaching it in a way that's just like really 00:46:51.334 --> 00:46:54.394 janky cuz that's how I learned it from these other tutorials. 00:46:54.904 --> 00:46:57.484 And then people are asking you questions about how, how am 00:46:57.484 --> 00:46:58.774 I supposed to fix this thing? 00:46:58.774 --> 00:46:59.924 And you're like, I. 00:47:00.019 --> 00:47:04.609 I don't know, like I just learned it last week, you know, as much as I do. 00:47:04.939 --> 00:47:10.309 So I have tried to pivot and just like build stuff and then teach what I'm 00:47:10.309 --> 00:47:15.529 building and like that, I'm usually very excited about those things and 00:47:15.534 --> 00:47:19.579 then I can also much more easily teach that content cuz it's fresh in 00:47:19.579 --> 00:47:23.989 my mind as opposed to like trying to learn something brand new and teach 00:47:23.989 --> 00:47:26.239 something I don't fully understand. 00:47:26.269 --> 00:47:30.669 It's much easier if you already know something deeply and go teach it that way. 00:47:30.669 --> 00:47:31.149 So 00:47:31.869 --> 00:47:35.149 that's made it, that's made the whole business like sustainable. 00:47:35.149 --> 00:47:40.569 But it sustainable is relative to, because it's still publish a video every 00:47:40.569 --> 00:47:47.439 week and it's, you know, the, the, yeah, the grind of same, same thing that all 00:47:47.444 --> 00:47:49.479 the Twitch Streamers are stuck with. 00:47:49.569 --> 00:47:53.469 You gotta show up every night, play video games for 10 hours straight 00:47:53.889 --> 00:47:59.019 and never miss a day and like, That becomes a job real fast, even though 00:47:59.019 --> 00:48:01.839 you're playing video games, it's a job. 00:48:02.289 --> 00:48:07.239 CJ: Yeah, I burnt out real hard, just like making tons of content last year and 00:48:07.244 --> 00:48:10.959 like, yeah, I like couldn't do it anymore 00:48:11.079 --> 00:48:16.989 Chris: and, and you had to, like, you had to do that of using JavaScript frameworks 00:48:16.989 --> 00:48:23.619 and P h P and Ruby and like you were doing something that seems to me like 00:48:23.799 --> 00:48:28.899 is extremely hard cuz you, you have to go so broad, whereas in Rails, I can go 00:48:28.904 --> 00:48:34.299 real deep on Rails and only care about Ruby and Rails things, but you're like, 00:48:34.479 --> 00:48:39.884 you're deep on stripe, but broad on every language, which is like crazy to me. 00:48:40.154 --> 00:48:41.654 That sounds very, very hard. 00:48:42.374 --> 00:48:45.224 CJ: Yeah, it was, it was tons of fun to learn, like the frameworks and stuff. 00:48:45.224 --> 00:48:48.824 And in the beginning I had a blast just like picking up all the, like the 00:48:48.824 --> 00:48:50.204 same patterns in different languages. 00:48:50.204 --> 00:48:54.974 But yeah, to your point, I would make a video in Ruby having fun with 00:48:54.974 --> 00:48:57.044 something, and someone would be like, can you do the same thing in php? 00:48:57.044 --> 00:48:57.434 Now? 00:48:57.464 --> 00:48:58.604 I'm like, oh my gosh. 00:48:58.604 --> 00:49:00.884 Like, like, I don't know. 00:49:01.259 --> 00:49:02.879 Colin: We need some some elixir. 00:49:02.879 --> 00:49:04.169 We need some rust. 00:49:05.129 --> 00:49:05.519 CJ: Yeah. 00:49:05.549 --> 00:49:05.909 Yeah. 00:49:05.969 --> 00:49:06.299 Same. 00:49:06.299 --> 00:49:07.409 Same Yeah. 00:49:08.514 --> 00:49:11.904 All right, well as always, you can head over to Build and learn.dev 00:49:11.904 --> 00:49:14.754 to check out all the links and resources in the show notes. 00:49:15.176 --> 00:49:15.676 Colin: Bye friends.