[00:00:00] Dan: Hello and welcome back to We Not Me, the podcast where we explore how humans connect to get stuff done together. I'm Dan Hammond

[00:00:13] Pia: And I am Pia Lee. You know, it's, it's hard to think of spring when we're still only in February in, in the uk, but I I, it is there, it will come, round lights will return and warmth, and when it

[00:00:26] Dan: Are you sure?

[00:00:27] Pia: Yeah, it will honestly, it will occur. You'll be on the third year of your Ilkley Live, which was a bit of a germination of a great idea about how you could bring music into people's

[00:00:39] gardens during the, during the pandemic. 

[00:00:42] Dan: Yes. I can't believe it's the third year, but yes. I think we may have talked about it on the show before, but yeah, because I, um, my friend, Greg and I had to practice six feet apart in our garden a couple of times. and people sort of came past and stood around the gate and watched it sort of Germany this, yeah, this idea, this sort of, Planted this, this seed, if you like, that we could do a little garden music festival.

[00:01:07] So we started doing that two years ago and it just, it was fantastic. It was just abs. It was incredibly moving actually, because of course, after Covid we were all longing for human contact, live music, and we had all of that.

[00:01:21] And, um, the weather behaved itself. So yeah, it was glorious. 

[00:01:24] Pia: Has it grown? Like what's your relationship to it?

[00:01:28] Dan: Well, you know, my physics teacher at school said to me, A good physicist is a lazy man. And I, I guess if now it'll be a lazy woman as well. Um, but I really set out on this thing to be as light as possible. I wanted it to be by the community, for the community. So I've set up these systems and things with the help of Ian actually, who was a Guest on the show. He's done an amazing podcast that sort of automates things so that we, I don't have to do too much. 

[00:01:53] But I've realized that. . The musicians are amazing and they are, they come along and they play, but we need a bigger audience. So what I've realized this year is I need to rope in a few more. P we need to do more to drum up an audience for, for all those players. So, um, it means I'm going to have to. Grab a few people together, get a few people together and vol and do some and volunteer work.

[00:02:17] There have been, the lovely thing is actually volunteerism sort of pops up all over the place. You have, I've got someone arranged sort of said, oh grab, grab this pub and we'll sort out some acts here. Someone has said, I've got this bar and I'm gonna sort out, so volunteering sort of comes out of nowhere, but I need to get a little bit more organized about it. So I'm very interested here. Jim Goddard today talking about leading volunteers because, um, it's a, it's an interesting topic.

[00:02:43] I'm hoping it'll be a reasonably informal thing that I'm doing, but I know he has spent a couple of decades now. making, having an impact on the planet through people who aren't paid. Um, and so it'll be really interesting to see how he's done that. Another great example of how humans connect to get really great things done. So let's 

[00:03:02] Pia: This can hear from him.

[00:03:04] Dan: and yeah, let's hear from Jim now. 

[00:03:10] Jim, it's so great to have you on the show. Thank you so much for being.

[00:03:13] Jim: It's a pleasure. Thanks, Dan. Thanks for having me.

[00:03:15] Dan: So we're really looking forward to our conversation today. It's a really, um, fascinating topic. So, um, but before we get into that, let's, um, let's get to know you a little bit better with the famous conversation starter cards. So I'll pick one at random. See what, uh, Mr. God. Oh, you get a red card, Mr. Goddard. Um, They had tricky ones. My biggest. Disappointment about myself is

[00:03:40] Pia: Oh,

[00:03:40] Jim: Oh gosh, yes. Wow. How get to know me quickly.

[00:03:44] Dan: Brutal. 

[00:03:45] Jim: I think an answer to that for me would be that sometimes I tend to undermine myself. So there are moments when like, all, like all of us, I feel great about myself and there are other moments where I undermine myself and I start to think negative thoughts about myself. And so that's, that's been a repeating pattern for years for me. And so having to overcome that is something I find quite challenging sometimes.

[00:04:08] I guess you have high highs and, and lower lows. And so, and then there are times when you, you stop believing in yourself as much as maybe others do or as much as you do when things are going well.

[00:04:19] Dan: Well, I imagine that there are a few of our listeners who have the same thing going on in their heads, so, um,

[00:04:25] Pia: Oh, just a 

[00:04:26] Dan: They they wanted to, in fact, so I'm very, very pleased to that you, that you were so, uh, so so transparent with us. Thank you, Jim. Great start. Um, so let's just segue a little bit and, um, hear a bit about, a bit more about you, Jim, where, where you, where you've come from, how you got to this place, um, carrying this burden with you all the while, but tell us a bit about Jim Goddard.

[00:04:48] Jim: Yeah, well, I guess I, I mean I started off life as a, an engineer from university. Um, so don't hold that against me, but, um, I spent 10 years in the, I guess in the for-profit world, um, and uh, focusing on, um, leading engineering companies and engineering enterprise tech. Um, but I had this kinda life transformation in my late thirties, um, which was, I really had this sense that must been more to life than what I was doing. What I mean by that really was not that for profit was wrong, it's just that I felt like I needed to invest my energies in something that really suited me. 

[00:05:23] And so I started living what I call purposely. Um, and it was ultimately towards having this sense of impact for good on the world. I couldn't have summarized that at the time, but that's how it feels now. And, um, I guess for the last 20 years, um, I've just followed this, my heart and sense of calling. I haven't followed what anyone else or what society has expected of me. I just followed my own sense of calling. Um, and I've invested energies into things that basically for greater good.

[00:05:51] So an example of that would be, most of that time was really focused on alleviating poverty around the world. So infusing and inspiring people to, to care, to contribute, you know, their time, treasure, and talent. I've also led organizational transformation of large nonprofits to turn around their fundraising or improve their fundraising. And I found that a couple of community movements over that time, you know, have meant leading a lot of volunteers. And that that's really about getting people to stand up and do their bit, whether that's to end extreme poverty, reduce carbon emissions and global warming, etc.

[00:06:26] And then most recently, which, you know, may be interesting, I've just, uh, started an executive advisory that helps leaders and organizations to become more purposeful and become more sustainable, you know, triple bottom line, profit, etc. So, I've changed substantially over that time and, um, I've just really followed a sense of passion and calling and interest really. And so that's had some really exciting moments and some, some challenging moments. 

[00:06:50] Pia: That's a big life change. Many of us, we sort of sleep, walk into our career sometimes, you know, it's just sort of the thing that you do. So what, what was defining for you? What created for you to suddenly think, gosh, this may not be the right path? And, and, and to start going down a more purpose led path? Because that's a less trodden one.

[00:07:13] Jim: Yeah, great question there. There was really the, the first, sort of ongoing sense was that I didn't really feel like I was enjoying my life in my twenties. So when I first, when I graduated university, traveled the world, spent a couple of years, and I really had a fantastic time traveling around the world, um, especially in Australia, which is why I ended up coming back here. And um, and then as I started getting into corporate life, I just thought this, there's gotta be more for me than this. Not saying that it isn't enough for others, but I just really felt like it wasn't, um, meeting who I was. I wanted to live more passionately, I guess. And um, and so there was this period, maybe a five, six years where I just, I was just searching and, and researching and reading as much as I possibly could to try to understand myself, as we all do in our, in our twenties. And where I was gonna go, And, um. 

[00:08:03] And there were a couple of, you know, Some books that were really incredible in making that and helping me through that time. Um, one of them was called Halftime, which is written for people in their, in their early fifties who've succeeded in the first part of their life, and they take this halftime moment to think about what they're gonna do in the second part of their life and how they're gonna give back. And, uh, I unfortunately read it when I was 29 so, so I felt like I was exercising what the book was written about in the my early thirties. Got an early

[00:08:34] Pia: it a quarter

[00:08:35] Dan: Yeah.

[00:08:36] Jim: Exactly. Exactly. There, there were other things like my brother was, was really struggling mentally and ended up taking his own life and that happened in my late twenties, and other things happened in my family So, you know, they all concluded together to just go heck yeah I'm gonna step out of life for a moment and rethink 

[00:08:53] Pia: I mean, that's amazing. And I think, you know, I think those late twenties are quite, um, Wake up years. You know, when you start to think, gosh, I'm, I'm a, I'm becoming a grown up now. Is this, is this the path that I want to choose? how, how did you start to make changes? What did you practically do? Because you, you know, you are, you are working in the sort of majority setting in the corporate world, how, how do you take that, those steps to start fulfilling your own purpose?

[00:09:24] Jim: Yeah, that's, that's another good question cause I can remember it very specifically. Um, so I've always been a passionate sailor, mountaineer, kind of adventurer, and, um, when I was working as a sales director for, um, Mission Technologies at the time, um, there was an opportunity to do this exciting adventurous race called the Three Peaks Yacht Race, which is quite famous in England. And um, and so I decided to lead that I just took a challenge and a dare to go and do that, and that meant getting a few people together, it meant getting a bit of fundraising together. 

[00:09:56] And I just enjoyed it so much. I remember thinking, I need to do that again. So then we did something the following year and then something the following year. And, uh, over a period of two or three years of, of running these kinds, kinds of adventure challenges and finding that that was far more exciting than my work, I decided that that's the thing that I needed to do full-time.

[00:10:17] So, I ended up cycling through South America for a year just to kind of get my head straight and, and, and think what I should do next. And um, and then came long lonely, two or three years of trying to determine what that would look like next. Um, but ultimately that led to leading my first volunteer community movement, um, which I know you'd like to talk about later.

[00:10:37] But there's an important thing to mention in there, which is part of the challenge of this lifestyle, which is that people might say, Well, how did you afford it? Well, at the time, I guess I was fortunate that I, I didn't have any responsibilities and so that meant that it was easy for me to step out and rethink. I totally get that's different if you're in a different position. But what I've always made sure, and even now with a married family, I've always made sure that I don't over, I always make sure the financial decisions that I make are such that I've always got one or two years space so that I can have some freedom there to make sure I can make a purposeful choice, rather than feeling like I'm running month to month and I just have to abide by what the world says. 

[00:11:16] Dan: it's really interesting, I think in this, in these times, I think a lot of people are starting to, Not, not just question whether they're Happiness, but actually do something about it,. and start thinking, this is not for me, and start to leave, particularly those people who've reached halftime actually. And also that, that strategy you had in your life of, um, having your life, that two week, two, two year cushion, you know, that. Thing about your possessions start to own you. And so you can get yourself trapped quite easily, can't you? So it's a, you've played a smart game, I think, Jim.

[00:11:46] Um, let's just zoom a little bit in on this volunteer work and, and start to look at that. Tell us, tell us about the sorts of things you've, you set up, you've achieved, but also if you can just dive a little bit, into the how humans in that world connect.

[00:12:01] Jim: Yeah, sure. Uh, I, I've led two fairly large community movements, one's running now. Um, the first one was back in 2005. It was a community partnership movement. It was on the back of the Make Poverty History movement, if you remember that in 2005. It was big in the uk especially in Europe and Australia. And, um, what I wanted to do was think global, act local, which is obviously what a lot of committee movements are about. And it was about making sure that, uh, or encouraging that a community in Australia at the time in Sydney can partner with a community in Indonesia, and we actually make a tangible difference to lives of thousands of children and families on rubbish tips and, and fishing slums. Um, and I actively led that for five years as a volunteer. We had 20,000 people involved over that time. We had hundreds and hundreds of community events raise millions of dollars, but it actually wasn't really about the dollars. I mean, it's partly about it, but um, it was more about changing hearts and minds. 

[00:13:03] And that's, that's the thing about community movements. You can go and raise huge amounts of money from business or corporate, but if you want personal transformation, which to me is what community movements all about, then it's about the individuals. It's not necessarily about the amount of money. Money is a method to helping people make a choice and contribute time., Talent, treasure is is way that people can contribute, but it's in the contribution that is the tran is where the transformation comes.

[00:13:30] So we live that for five years. We can talk more about that in second if you wish. But then the second one I've just started about a year and a half ago. and, uh, I'm still leading now is a community decarbonization and renewable energy movement, which is basically taking a, a local government area or a council area. In our case, it's about 200,000 people in businesses, and it's aiming to reduce carbon emissions by 70% by 2030, um, as part of a net zero strategy. Um, and basically again, it's doing our bit. It's saying, as a community, the world needs to change. You know, we're needing to end extreme poverty or we're needing to reduce carbon emissions. And so let's step up, let's lead as a, as a community and do our bit and show the world that we a developed nation, a wealthy developed nation can make this happen. 

[00:14:17] Dan: It's, it's great to hear. And Pier and I, we, we've talked a lot on the show and elsewhere about, In our circle of concern we have lots of things to worry about and we go on about them a little bit, but actually, what can you do? And it sounds like you, is the question. It sounds like you've really taken that seriously through the last couple of decades and really done something about it. So take us into the volunteer world, Jim. What sort of roles do you, the volunteers do? How do you engage them, first of all, and how does it, how does it go well?

[00:14:45] Jim: It's interesting cause when you use the term volunteers, I never think about that. I never even think about that word. So that is interesting in itself. I don't think of myself as a volunteer, I don't think of the people I'm talking to as volunteers. Um, I tend to think them as people who are passionate about gang stuff down or getting, making change happen. And it's just that they don't get paid for it.

[00:15:06] They're people that wanna be part of a transition that wanna bring change in the world. Change makers might be a better word, and the fact that they don't get paid is irrelevant. Um, but we tend to make a big deal outta the fact that people don't get paid, um, which is probably the least important part, to be honest. Yeah,

[00:15:21] There's lots to say about it. I guess, you know, the, the first is that leading volunteers can be incredibly rewarding, because it's kind of like a, I call it almost like a pure type of leadership, whereas in, um, people don't need to follow you. If you are setting something up as a, as a, as a volunteer yourself or as a community passion or whatever, you wanna call yourself, a change maker, people don't have to follow you. You can, you can go and stand on the corner and talking or go to a town hall meeting and people walk out the door. I mean it's happened to me hundreds of times. Um, so it can be really rewarding, but it can also be incredibly humbling. It can be rewarding because you can engage hearts and minds and, and and inspire people and they say, I wanna be part of that. Yes. And then suddenly you find that you've gone from zero to 30 people who wanna be part of this little new thing. And then that builds to a hundred and then a thousand and that's an incredibly rewarding thing because you're not throwing at the problem, you're just using inspiration and vision and, and all the, the traits of leadership that we know.

[00:16:21] But it also can be incredibly frustrating because people don't have to work for you. I mean, I keep saying again, they don't have to do what you say. They don't have to follow your vision. they don't, they don't have to work for you. You know, and, and, and they don't turn up. And they don't, they don't do what they say they're gonna do all the time. And they overcommit because they over, they get excited.

[00:16:41] And so the reason I find it so engaging as a leader is because it constantly reminds you to lead authentically. You have to kind of peel yourself back, take your ego away. Any moment that any sense of ego you are, you are completely stuffed, you know. And running a community movement or running volunteers, it it basically unwinds, peels back the onion to the core, and that core has to be deeply authentic, otherwise people won't follow it. um because they can smell it a mile away if it's not. 

[00:17:10] Pia: I mean, that's really interesting because leading with our ego and not getting a payback for your ,ego as a human, is a difficult thing to do because we're in a society where, We're often being framed or we are seeing around us that that's, that's we, we get those payoffs and that's what, that's what sometimes sort of increases our own ambitions and makes us want to do more. So to actually stand there and peel everything away and just be left with the purpose of why you're there, that must be very hard. Can you remember the first time you almost did that, not in that corporate, but just like walking in. Got an idea I want to share it. 

[00:17:54] Jim: It's interesting. It's happened a couple of times because, um, you know, I, two years ago, I came out of 12 years working for World Vision International, which ended up, you know, and it's a huge corporate, it's, it's 37,000 employees and I was a senior director there, and so I got, although it was a passionate cause and we were doing incredible purposeful work and full of people who were equally committed, I got paid. And so there was this sense of architecture around you and, and a sense of, not necessarily ego, but position and, and all those things that we know. And so setting up the second community movement, I had to peel onion back again. It almost like, ave you're amazing. It's time to wind it all back, Jim, and be authentic, authentically, you know, be more authentic again.

[00:18:38] And so I remember it a lot in this last year and a. Because I came in with all my, well, I'm this, I'm that, you know, I've got all this experience and I'm really amazing at this and you know, you can trust me for this. And, um, I remember a number of times in meetings and afterwards where would call out and in effect, they call me out subtly or directly, and effectively say, you're making it all about you. It's not about you.

[00:19:03] And uh, yeah, there were, there were difficult moments, but they were equally incredibly. Incredibly heartfelt moments when people have the courage to do that. and, and ultimately it makes you a better leader.

[00:19:14] Pia: I agree with that a hundred percent. And you, you've gotta have a lot of courage to stand in that spot. Not many people unpeel and, and do that. And then face that type of, that type of feedback in, in, I guess in their lifelong pursuit of their own purpose. That's. I find that quite humbling about you because it's an, an incredibly strong characteristic because it's almost like you, you can't allow yourself to rest for too long. You've got to re reincarnate into, you know, into, into a different person. It's, yeah, it, that, that, that's, that's not, that's not always an easy path.

[00:19:55] Jim: Well, it's not, it's definitely not easy, but it's not something that I can, um, I mean, I've been questioning myself in the last couple of years cause of cause of the peeling back and, and I feel like almost starting again. And it's not easy, but at the same time I don't really have a choice Cause it's, it's what I feel led and called to do and it's what my heart is telling me to do. And as I said at the start, that's kind of what I've committed myself to do. To live authentically and purposely. And ultimately I believe it leads, it leads to greater Happiness and greater wellbeing and greater authenticity to do all those things. So if you don't follow your heart, you're effectively ignoring, ignoring what your life is telling you to do or ignoring, however you, you believe that that comes to you. But, um, i, I guess when I, you know, when you, when you sit back and you 70 or 80 or 90 or where, however, however long we, it's, I've always wanted to look back and go I lived, I lived passionately, I lived purposefully, I lived, I did what I wanted to do, not necessarily what I felt I ought to do. 

[00:20:54] Dan: The reason, one of the reasons I was really interested in talking to you about working with peop unpaid people, changemakers, whatever they're called, was that exact point that you, you've made, which is you, they don't have to work for you. Because I'm working with the charity in the UK working with some people who work, man managers of a charity in the UK said that they've had people say, you can't tell me what to do because I'm a volunteer. And they would sort of cherry pick the tasks. So the volunteers would say, well, I'm happy to do that, but don't make me do that. And the, and the managers ended up doing all the worse tasks, I think just covering up. Have you, have you seen that? And unfair leadership question, but how have you overcome that?

[00:21:33] Jim: Uh, I, I have seen it, but to me, the minute that you start to get into that challenge, you need to rewind a bit and to, and get closer to your, to your people, to the change makers. So the reason that happens is, in my view, is because the people that you have volunteering are volunteering against their own expectations of what that means, rather than an agreed and aligned expectation of what it means.

[00:22:00] So one, one of the things that, um, it's absolutely critical is to ensure that you have alignment of the why, what, how, and who. And in this last agreement that I built, we spent three months going around in circles on the why, what, how, and who much to the frustration of lots of people who left. But I, I knew, and I know from experience that unless, unless you get absolute parity about why we're here, you know, what's the vision that we're trying to aim for? How are we gonna about gonna go about doing this? What are our objectives? And who are we, what are our values that we're going to behold? You will get the wrong people on the bus. And so it's critical to do that and to extend that to get the right people on the bus. That's the first thing now. So that's building from nothing from scratch.

[00:22:48] Now, if you are a charity and you're trying to bring volunteers on board, then a lot of that's already solved. And that's kind of a, an induction process that you take, you know, when you bring volunteers on board. But you could be easily stuck in a place where you are telling the volunteer, this is who you are signing up with. But that doesn't involve their intrinsic motivation, doesn't involve their vision, doesn't involve you, haven't tapped into anything. All you're doing is effectively saying Come and help us. So the second thing then therefore, is that you have to spend a lot of time getting to the bottom of who they are and what they want and alignment of their vision with, with your vision. Why are you here? What's, what are you passionate about? Why are you help, why are you even thinking about helping this charity? You know, what, what is it that's triggered that? What do you wanna get out of it? What, um, what would success look like for you in two years time? What will success look like for us in two years time? And you need to get, you need to stay there for as long as possible until you find that you've got the right people who are really passionate about your cause. And if they'll do anything for you, anything. 

[00:23:56] So I, I never have the problem with people not wanting to do the difficult stuff, um, and we'll talk, we'll talk more about my concept of leaving purposeful gaps in a minute. But if you, as long as you've built vision in people and you've got alignment of vision in people, then you're okay. This the third point quickly to make is that, and it's leadership, isn't it, that you don't expect anybody to do anything that you're not willing to do yourself. And so I've done everything myself, right? Whether it's cleaning up or after community event, putting up the stand, speaking, you know, coding, the website, whatever it is, I've done it, and I can always have a sense that I'm never asking or, or sitting next to someone to ask them to do something if I haven't done it myself.

[00:24:42] Pia: I think that again, is, that creates a connection, doesn't it? Because if people know that you are equally willing to do those jobs, then they don't feel that dynamic of the boss and the worker that tends to happen in the more traditional workspace. So you don't feel like, so it's, it, it's, it's a more egalitarian. Um, so tell us about you, you alluded to, to, to this leading purposeful gap. What did you mean by that?

[00:25:11] Jim: Leaving purposeful gaps. So sometimes, um, when you're running volunteers or running a community movement or doing anything with people who then get paid, if you are a kind of strategic mind, you know what you need. You've got clarity about your way forward, you know that you need, you know, people to fill these roles, you need this type of role to happen. But if you're running, if you're running, you know, a movement with, with people who, who turn up, when they choose to turn up, you can't guarantee that you can fill, fill that role.

[00:25:43] So take my, my last Community ribbon, for example. We desperately needed to write a marketing strategy. Now I can do that, I can do lots of things, but, but what I really wanted to do was to find someone who could write it for us. And we couldn't afford to pay for it. I, I wasn't gonna spend anymore of my own money to try and get that done. And, um, we didn't have enough money in the bank of our, you know, our coffers to go and find someone. So we purposely, I purposely left the gap and I left the gap for a long time. And everyone was like, we need a marketing strategy. We need a marketing strategy. We do need a marketing strategy. We need to find someone who's gonna do that marketing strategy. And so ultimately what happened is that that gets everyone thinking about how they're gonna go and try and find someone to fill the gap and then six months later we found someone to fill the gap and they're going, we haven't got a marketing strategy. We need to write a marketing strategy. How right you are. Do you feel like doing that? Yes, I'll do that.

[00:26:35] And there's lots of things in that, but, but one that's really important is that people get ownership by allowing that gap to be, to be open. People get ownership by noticing there's a gap, and people get ownership by filling their gap. Now, as a, as a, as a volunteer leader or community volunteer leader, it's very easy to fill all the gaps. I mean, in my first movement I did that and I wore myself out for years, because I wanted to be professional, I wanted it to look incredible and, and build the things, and I didn't want to allow myself to be vulnerable, to leave gaps written, not to be good enough. And this time I've been smarter and I've left the gaps on purpose waiting for people to fill it 

[00:27:17] Dan: I was gonna say, that's a great example of having to keep your ego at bay, isn't it? Because you, you know that you are probably being judged for not having a marketing plan. And, uh, you've, so I'm sure the, the ego wants to rear up and solve that problem. But it's a great example of keeping that at bay, I think.

[00:27:35] Jim: It's, especially when that person comes in who sees the gap and owns it, goes, I can't believe you haven't got a marketing plan. Why haven't you got a marketing plan, Jim? Oh we just haven't had time, John, or Mary, it's taken so long.

[00:27:48] Dan: It's interesting you mentioned the, um, I wouldn't ask someone to do something I wouldn't do myself, I get completely. You, you went a step further and said, I wouldn't ask someone to do something I haven't done myself. How important is that to you? Because I can definitely see, you know, if I'm gonna clean the toilet, I'm gonna show you that I'm gonna go and I'm, I'm happy to clean toilets. But if I've got a, a Python coder, do I have to say, uh, well I've, I've coded in Python, so. I can tell you over here, I've got a marketing person, I've done social media campaigns.

[00:28:20] Is, can I just drill down on that? Is that really what you're saying? Or you, are you just, is it a more subtle thing that people know you are prepared to, to put the effort in that they're putting in?

[00:28:30] Jim: Yeah, tha thanks for picking up on that. I think it's probably the more subtle thing, but it is an active it, it is something that you need to be intentional about, about actively demonstrating. 

[00:28:39] Dan: Very much. 

[00:28:40] Jim: it's similar to. the ego check with leaving the gaps, which is almost, you want bad or something, so someone will take it over from you. I, thank you so much for doing that but clearly that's not your gift, jim.

[00:28:54] Pia: Do this a lot. You've just un unearthed my parenting strategy, which is, you know, I realize this one that, you know, if you fill the gap too much as a parent, then they think, well, why, why do I need to do it? But actually, if you purposefully leave things, then in the end they do step up and do 

[00:29:16] Dan: The only thing, the only exception I would call is, is, is an untidy room. You might be waiting a couple of decades for that to be tidied, but, but yeah, generally, yeah, so it's very smart. Very smart little tip, 

[00:29:26] Pia: So looking back, you're only in the half halfway stage. what would you do differently from the lessons learned, particularly around leadership? For the second half?

[00:29:36] Jim: I think to be honest, I just focus more on, um, having less ego, more on, less, and, uh, try and strip myself clearer, ander faster, because that's where you're more authentic and that's where people will really get the most outta following you. and I, I haven't really had a period, I haven't had a period in the last 20 years where I've regretted that I've spent too long doing something. So when I left World Vision, I left it on my own intention, because I had this deep sense that my time was done and that I'd done 10 years as a senior leader in one particular area, and that I needed that, needed a refreshment and needed a new person. And I knew that was gonna be challenging to leave. And it's a little bit like Jacinda Ardern you know, you know when your time is right to leave and you just leave cause that's what good leaders should do. And you're at the top of the S curve right? And someone needs to come in and take that and, and go forward. 

[00:30:30] And so I haven't yet made that mistake where I felt I'd hang on too long. But it is challenging because it means that sometimes if you're living passionately and purposely, you haven't necessarily prepared the next step. And society tells you, and the world tells you, LinkedIn tells you to prepare for the next step. That's, that's hard to do at the same time as head down, changing, you know, trying to change the world or have, make an impact or do whatever you're trying to do.

[00:30:56] And so, Leaving, leaving space, as we mentioned at the start, leaving those gaps so that financially you can not be stressed for, for a year, is, is critical. So, and I've, I've managed to do that. So I don't, I don't really have any regrets. And um, I would just probably, if I look back, I'd probably say focus more on vision. More on vision. More on vision. Cause that's what pulls you through.

[00:31:18] Dan: Yeah, this, that resonates so much and I'm sure it will with Pia as well. So many of the teams we're working with just assume everyone's clear about the what, why, how, and who, and they just move on and, and just get, get going on it. So it's really heartening to hear in your, as you described at the front end, this pure version of leadership, you really double down on, on, on charity. You spend a lot of time on that and connecting it to other people's, um, perceptions and views and identity. So that, that was, that was really heartening and all, yeah, all teams could do with a little bit of that.

[00:31:53] Jim: It's a constant maintenance. So back to your intrinsic motivation, mention at the start, that's what you're appealing to when you're appealing to changemakers. Volunteers, people doing things for nothing, and it's a constant maintenance that's very easy to get into a todo mindset. We need all these things. Here's our action list, and then. But every time you meet, it's getting back to why are we here? You know, why are you here? And having that personal, relational conversation to get and intentionally channeling and getting into the intrinsic motivation again. Cause that's gonna remind them that what they're about to undertake is, is towards that end, towards that vision that we jointly have. I think in a, in a, in a corporate job or in a four paid job, you can quite easily forget that.

[00:32:38] Dan: Yes. And where, where you've, where you've trying to make poverty history or we're trying to get water to villages or whatever, it, it probably seems really obvious and, and the temptation is actually to move on really fast. Um, but it sounds like it's the opposite. I think it's a, just a, a great, great takeaway from, from your learnings, Jim, thank you.

[00:33:00] So Jim, you've told us that, um, the, the, it's the importance, the, it's, you've gotta know when to hold them, know when to fold 'em. So it's, it's time for us to bid you farewell, but just wanted to, before we do that, just thank, just wish you very well for all your future endeavors. You've really inspired us, I think with your, um, Yeah, with the way that you've sort of seen your career and you've made choices along the way, so, and you've made had a huge impact. So thank you very much for taking time out today to join us on We Not Me.

[00:33:28] Jim: Thanks, Dan. Thank you Pia, it's been a pleasure.

[00:33:30] Pia: I've known Jim, well, I actually knew Jim 20 years ago, He wasn't a, a 20 something year old. But shortly afterwards, I think having some of those realizations, and, you know, really, really interesting man with a deep sense of purpose. and a just such courage to challenge the norm, to, to live a life that, for him is aligned to purpose. 

[00:33:58] The way he talks about stripping back. We all do it, you get to positions inside organi. You're being fed this information that makes you feel safe and makes you feel or powerful, or makes you feel something, and then stripping back that ego to get back in touch with purpose in order to do greater good. Oh, that's, there's not many souls like that, but you can learn a lot. It doesn't. Doesn't mean we all have to do that. We can all learn something from that, I

[00:34:28] Dan: there's something in that for everyone. I think I, I'd, I'd loved your line a question there, because that's, what is the, the, that moment of change for people? What, for a start, how do you make sure that you observe yourself, you are actually tuned into the fact you're unhappy. A lot of people just miss that, you know, living lives of desperation, , and just sometimes miss it, but then to do something about it. And very interesting, it took him a long time that he really did do something. So it's, I think there's, there was really something in that for, for everyone to think about.

[00:35:02] I was also fascinated by his, his conversation starter card, his persistent self-doubt. Connected with that, you know, trying to keep his ego at bay, you know, those two sort of, you could see those two playing, playing off each other. And I think, um, that, you know, when that self-doubt comes in you sometimes your, your ego can flare up and you, you sort of fake it till you make it and it doesn't look good. So I was really interesting how those two cohabit for him as well. So fascinating and, and a incredibly self-aware person and, uh, honest enough to share it with us.

[00:35:36] Pia: And I agree and I think, you know, we sort of, as we start to understand more about ourselves, we realize we've got these different parts, and then how they sort of have this dance and that sort of self-doubt and ego, you know, you're trying to protect part of yourself and you're trying to actually lay yourself bare at the same time.

[00:35:55] Dan: Yeah. What joy, what joy? Um, and I, uh, the other thing that leapt out for me was, um, was this piece about clarity, as we would call it. The what, why, how, and who. And how much time Jim spent on that was one thing. But the, the real, which I think, you know, as we, as I mentioned in the conversation, we see teams with poor clarity all the time and spending time as he did is really vital. The thing he did that was different from what most people do, even when they spend time on it, is that he then, having talked about that for the organization, he spent the spent effort helping people to connect to it individually. You know, what are individual motivations? Their perceptions. So I think that is, um, and obviously he was just sort of very purposeful working with volunteers, but this is something that any team leader could take away, I think, that that, that, that vision, that purpose, et cetera, has to be made personal.

[00:36:54] Pia: Absolutely. And that, and that you've gotta really invest in the time to get. Clarity because it, it, because it's, it's, it's not something you just pick up in the, in one conversation. Because it's what does it in that, what does it mean to me, you know, you're really is is almost like an act of teaming. Am I in or am I out? And how, and, but, but really getting to it on another level.

[00:37:18] Dan: Absolutely. And he didn't quite say this, but I think I got between the lines that that process can shake people out. He, I, it's sort of that he's got a lot of volunteers in that conversation. Those conversations, people think this is not for me. And, and what you end up with is an enrolled group of people with intrinsic motivation that's really connected personally to what you're trying to achieve and why. So, yeah, it's, um,

[00:37:41] Pia: And, I, I wonder if almost, you know, quite the challenge of this is that some volunteers may have an ego about volunteering. And therefore that's something that you don't, that may not be helpful in the dynamic. So what's bringing you to volunteering? What are you, what's the payoff?

[00:38:01] Dan: Correct. Well, you know, my legendary volunteering to run the. The band program at, uh, at the primary school. So I know, uh, the therapy bill is, is ramping up, let me tell you. But it wa what, it was fascinating because I saw a group of volunteers there and did not think about that. What is their motivation for being there? And of course I just went straight in, made assumptions about those motivations, which to be honest, For a lot of those people was just social. It was actually hanging out with other people. It wasn't really necessarily to do something, but other people, the very, they, they were very huge variety of motivations, and uh, it's not all the same. It's not the same. So anyway, I've learned, I was young. I was young. What can I say? Um, I've, I've 

[00:38:47] Pia: And they gave you feedback, I think, didn't they?

[00:38:51] Dan: The two most powerful words in the English language, but, uh,

[00:38:55] Pia: And one ended with off

[00:38:57] Dan: Yeah, exactly. The second one's off. Yeah, so that went very well. Anyway, I think that is a perfect time to call a close to this episode. You can find show notes and resources at squadify.net. Just click on the We Not Me podcast link. If you've enjoyed the show, please do share the love and recommend it to your friends.

[00:39:16] If you'd like to contribute to the show, just email us We, not me, pod gmail dot. We not me, as produced by Mark Steadman of Origin. Thank you so much for listening. It's goodbye from me.

[00:39:28] Pia: And it's goodbye from me.