WEBVTT NOTE This file was generated by Descript 00:00:00.000 --> 00:00:00.780 Michele: Hey, everyone. 00:00:00.839 --> 00:00:02.610 Welcome back to software social. 00:00:02.909 --> 00:00:05.900 I am so excited to have with me today, Lucie Baratte. 00:00:06.150 --> 00:00:10.090 She is co-founder and art director of logology. 00:00:10.500 --> 00:00:15.659 You have probably come across logology on Twitter because of her husband 00:00:15.659 --> 00:00:21.159 and co-founder Dagobert Dagobert Renouf who makes, so many funny, 00:00:21.219 --> 00:00:24.769 um, memes about, running a company. 00:00:25.049 --> 00:00:27.974 So Lucy, thank you so much for joining us today. 00:00:27.979 --> 00:00:28.814 I'm so excited to have you. 00:00:29.654 --> 00:00:30.674 Lucie: Thank you to have me. 00:00:30.674 --> 00:00:31.904 I'm very happy to be there. 00:00:31.904 --> 00:00:32.984 Thank you, Michelle. 00:00:33.254 --> 00:00:34.274 And hi everyone. 00:00:34.778 --> 00:00:39.728 Michele: So why don't you just first, tell us a little bit more about logology. 00:00:39.828 --> 00:00:43.138 You guys started it in, fall of 2018. 00:00:43.143 --> 00:00:43.498 Is that right? 00:00:44.113 --> 00:00:44.953 Lucie: Yes, it is. 00:00:44.953 --> 00:00:46.193 Fall of 2018. 00:00:46.763 --> 00:00:50.933 The first year was building the product, and we really launched 00:00:50.993 --> 00:00:55.553 the product in the spring of 2020. 00:00:56.056 --> 00:01:03.486 And logology is a website where you can find, a branding for, um, your startup 00:01:03.876 --> 00:01:05.736 in a few clicks, in a few minutes. 00:01:06.066 --> 00:01:12.966 And it will automatically, propose for you, ideal or, well, we'll try to make 00:01:12.966 --> 00:01:18.516 it the most perfect logo proposal for your startup, according to your values. 00:01:18.606 --> 00:01:23.396 So when you go on logology, and you are looking for a logo or looking 00:01:23.446 --> 00:01:28.855 for a branding, uh, identity, you can just take the, quiz. 00:01:29.005 --> 00:01:32.035 It's a creative quiz, I would say. 00:01:32.575 --> 00:01:38.005 And the quiz will help you define your personality, your startup personality. 00:01:38.365 --> 00:01:42.935 And after that, you have the logo proposals, which matches, the personality 00:01:42.935 --> 00:01:47.518 of your startup and your activities of course, and sector and activities. 00:01:48.103 --> 00:01:50.233 Michele: So, so tell me, where did this idea come from? 00:01:50.283 --> 00:01:53.386 Like how did you guys, get the idea of creating. 00:01:53.885 --> 00:01:56.195 Lucie: Well, it was a long time ago. 00:01:56.195 --> 00:02:04.280 We've first had the idea of creating a logo, fun and beautiful logo 00:02:04.280 --> 00:02:05.870 generator in the first place. 00:02:05.870 --> 00:02:08.660 It was I think, seven years ago. 00:02:08.660 --> 00:02:10.610 And then we forgot about this. 00:02:10.880 --> 00:02:18.080 And then it happened again that I was a graphic designer, specialize 00:02:18.080 --> 00:02:21.140 in visual identity and logo design. 00:02:21.643 --> 00:02:24.547 And I have to say, I was, wow. 00:02:24.547 --> 00:02:26.807 I say quite famous in my hometown. 00:02:27.757 --> 00:02:31.937 And so people were, calling me saying, oh, I loved what you've done 00:02:31.937 --> 00:02:34.157 for this company and this company. 00:02:34.157 --> 00:02:38.267 And I would love to have a brand identity designed by you. 00:02:38.987 --> 00:02:43.907 And I would say, okay, so the prices I have, warn you that the 00:02:43.907 --> 00:02:47.717 price is around, uh, 2000 and 3000. 00:02:48.377 --> 00:02:54.677 And often I knew saying it, that it was too much for for this person, because 00:02:55.037 --> 00:03:02.077 when you are still employed, you have a full-time job and you just want to try 00:03:02.227 --> 00:03:06.847 something, you don't have investment for the moment, only your own savings. 00:03:07.343 --> 00:03:12.863 Well, it looks too much money to, to spend on visual identity because 00:03:12.863 --> 00:03:16.193 visual identity is essential. 00:03:16.613 --> 00:03:22.523 I think it is essential for, uh, marketing your business and make 00:03:22.583 --> 00:03:26.412 your product loved for, uh, others. 00:03:26.909 --> 00:03:32.249 But in the same time, it's not like essential in the beginning that you 00:03:32.254 --> 00:03:35.439 would put thousands of, dollars in it. 00:03:35.941 --> 00:03:41.311 So I thought I didn't have a solution at this time when I was telling 00:03:41.311 --> 00:03:46.771 people that I didn't have solution for them because I could not do less. 00:03:47.131 --> 00:03:54.914 I could not do a logo, I would be custom logo or bespoke, and the only solutions 00:03:54.914 --> 00:04:00.124 where, where I go on the internet and maybe you will find things in terrible 00:04:00.664 --> 00:04:09.004 logo generator, or maybe, well, at least logo generator are awful solutions from 00:04:09.004 --> 00:04:16.554 my designer perspective, because you don't have the expertise, uh, about branding. 00:04:16.559 --> 00:04:22.580 It's just random, uh, logo design that you would find anywhere. 00:04:22.860 --> 00:04:28.390 Or usually the icons or the logo is not something that has been designed 00:04:28.390 --> 00:04:34.400 with a concept, with a story it's just like, icons from, non-project. 00:04:34.460 --> 00:04:38.450 I like non-project, but it's not like logo design, it's icon 00:04:38.455 --> 00:04:40.280 design and icons are not logo. 00:04:40.460 --> 00:04:45.170 Well, this is maybe a bit technical, but it is to say that logo generators 00:04:45.170 --> 00:04:50.503 are on from my perspective, not a great solution, even if they are very cheap. 00:04:50.503 --> 00:04:53.383 So it's very affordable, which is a solution. 00:04:53.883 --> 00:04:59.493 And the only solu, only other solutions that you could find on the internet 00:04:59.493 --> 00:05:02.563 at this point was, design contests. 00:05:02.803 --> 00:05:08.023 And as a designer, I hated this and I didn't want people to do that 00:05:08.028 --> 00:05:13.397 because design contest is very, is a very sad proposition, because, 00:05:13.757 --> 00:05:18.573 uh, it is, well, just to say, it is like you go on the website, you 00:05:18.573 --> 00:05:21.813 ask for brand identity or a logo. 00:05:22.083 --> 00:05:26.463 And I would say like, dozens of designers are gonna work on your 00:05:26.468 --> 00:05:31.713 project from your brief, but only one will get paid in the end. 00:05:31.718 --> 00:05:37.917 So I thought it was completely unfair and unethical, but I didn't have, um, 00:05:37.947 --> 00:05:46.497 solution for, people with no budget or a very small budget and big and 00:05:46.502 --> 00:05:48.637 great ideas because I'm fond of ideas. 00:05:48.657 --> 00:05:49.707 I have to say that too. 00:05:50.127 --> 00:05:51.337 I'm fond of ideas. 00:05:51.387 --> 00:05:58.407 I love working with entrepreneurs because they put so much passion in what they 00:05:58.407 --> 00:06:04.557 believe in and they are full of, uh, creativity, ingenuity, and I really 00:06:04.557 --> 00:06:05.937 want to do something to help them. 00:06:06.447 --> 00:06:07.770 So I begin to. 00:06:08.568 --> 00:06:12.168 I don't know, I put this idea aside and I didn't know what to 00:06:12.168 --> 00:06:17.928 do, and when Dagobert be, and I got married, we went on honeymoon. 00:06:18.618 --> 00:06:23.778 And we went to United States because I'm fond of music. 00:06:23.783 --> 00:06:29.538 So Dagobert be, was kind enough to follow me, uh, to Nashville and Memphis. 00:06:29.538 --> 00:06:33.738 And it was gorgeous and beautiful travel trip. 00:06:34.238 --> 00:06:38.828 And when we were at the hotel, we were, uh, looking at, um, a show, 00:06:38.828 --> 00:06:41.158 a TV show, called shark tank. 00:06:41.158 --> 00:06:45.322 And so you might know it of course, and I don't know how it come, 00:06:45.322 --> 00:06:47.752 but Dagobert was on the internet. 00:06:47.752 --> 00:06:52.592 And, and he found something about a founder who had the opportunity 00:06:52.592 --> 00:06:56.802 to went to go on, shark tank and giving back his experience. 00:06:56.807 --> 00:07:02.622 And he was, uh, He had launched, logo design online solution. 00:07:03.552 --> 00:07:09.492 And we begin to think about this, like, oh, so there is a market and something 00:07:09.492 --> 00:07:12.522 is possible in logo design online. 00:07:12.522 --> 00:07:17.352 And, so I, I remember that this time, all the people that 00:07:17.357 --> 00:07:19.542 I could not help in the past. 00:07:20.328 --> 00:07:23.897 And I don't know when you are in the United States, you, when it's a road 00:07:23.897 --> 00:07:31.247 trip, you spend so much time in car talking and, and reinvented the world 00:07:31.247 --> 00:07:38.680 that we find this idea, like how, why not create a new solution, something 00:07:38.680 --> 00:07:42.430 different that you could find online. 00:07:42.760 --> 00:07:44.350 It could be affordable. 00:07:44.470 --> 00:07:46.690 It could be beautiful. 00:07:46.690 --> 00:07:48.430 It could be meaningful. 00:07:48.730 --> 00:07:51.190 It could have, meaning, could tell stories. 00:07:51.220 --> 00:07:52.210 It could help you. 00:07:52.210 --> 00:07:57.487 And you know, when you start your business, when you have an idea, what 00:07:57.492 --> 00:08:03.997 could be for me, what could be better that to have new shoes to go dancing, a 00:08:03.997 --> 00:08:10.437 new suit to go to an employment meeting or a professional meeting, like it 00:08:10.437 --> 00:08:12.867 helps you so much for your confidence. 00:08:13.167 --> 00:08:19.737 And so when I was in the, plane on the way back, I was beginning to design 00:08:19.977 --> 00:08:22.077 the website and how could we do this? 00:08:22.573 --> 00:08:29.750 Because we really had to imagine a solution to get meaningful 00:08:29.750 --> 00:08:31.670 logo and it was not easy. 00:08:32.090 --> 00:08:39.640 So I was working with the key words from each logo and sectors, and that's how 00:08:39.640 --> 00:08:45.557 it came and Dagobert, and I, we love, uh, we are very fond of, uh, any icon. 00:08:45.607 --> 00:08:47.587 I don't know if you ever heard about this. 00:08:48.067 --> 00:08:53.197 It's an analysis of the different human personalities. 00:08:53.697 --> 00:08:57.502 And so we get inspired by this to create the, quiz. 00:08:57.502 --> 00:09:01.402 I was working a lot with design thinking solutions in the past 00:09:01.402 --> 00:09:03.212 to make workshop with my clients. 00:09:03.952 --> 00:09:08.872 So I invented solutions like this and we create this quiz together. 00:09:09.532 --> 00:09:17.515 Dagobert really has a product design vision, which was very most 00:09:18.265 --> 00:09:24.725 precious for me, who has, I think, a vision of always all the multiple 00:09:25.565 --> 00:09:30.335 solution, multiple possibles, um, which sometimes complicated. 00:09:30.335 --> 00:09:33.905 So Dagobert was the one to say, okay, let's make it simple. 00:09:34.505 --> 00:09:36.215 Let's keep it efficient. 00:09:36.305 --> 00:09:40.562 And I was the one who always wanted to put magic. 00:09:41.308 --> 00:09:43.048 I like the idea that it's a bit magical. 00:09:43.858 --> 00:09:51.268 You discover your startup personality, and then you have logos that 00:09:51.273 --> 00:09:54.022 matches, you can fall in love with. 00:09:54.525 --> 00:09:56.895 So that's the story of logology. 00:09:57.332 --> 00:09:58.322 Michele: I love that story. 00:09:58.322 --> 00:10:04.772 I think, you know, I, I also find that we do some of our best business 00:10:04.772 --> 00:10:06.602 thinking on road trips as well. 00:10:06.602 --> 00:10:08.672 Like I think there's something kind of magical about it. 00:10:08.702 --> 00:10:12.265 Maybe you're in a different place, but also there's no distractions, right? 00:10:12.265 --> 00:10:14.635 There's no mailman coming to the door, there's no phone. 00:10:14.635 --> 00:10:15.535 You Know, I get car sick. 00:10:15.535 --> 00:10:17.215 So like, I'm not on Twitter, on my phone. 00:10:17.215 --> 00:10:17.485 Right. 00:10:17.535 --> 00:10:21.962 You know, you're kind of just there in one place with nothing else to do. 00:10:22.012 --> 00:10:25.872 And it sounds like for you, you know, you had been carrying around kind of 00:10:25.872 --> 00:10:30.827 this, both the sympathy for people you wanted to, help with their logos. 00:10:30.927 --> 00:10:34.785 Because you're so passionate about the importance of visual design. 00:10:34.885 --> 00:10:39.780 But also then seeing that, the solution, you weren't able to solve 00:10:39.780 --> 00:10:44.730 them, you know, in your job and then, on a sort of bespoke basis. 00:10:44.735 --> 00:10:49.283 But then also seeing that the other options out there for people, 00:10:49.383 --> 00:10:54.943 either were not great from a design perspective, had some shortcomings 00:10:55.333 --> 00:10:58.177 or from an ethical perspective. 00:10:58.177 --> 00:11:05.107 I admit like our, our geo code logo comes from 99 designs, but we did it. 00:11:05.107 --> 00:11:09.027 And I think, well, the first one actually was just made by me and Microsoft paint. 00:11:09.357 --> 00:11:12.897 So, that was, pretty horrific. 00:11:12.927 --> 00:11:16.167 It says new code with a little cowboy hat we drew over it. 00:11:16.167 --> 00:11:18.927 It's like, it is so embarrassing. 00:11:19.567 --> 00:11:26.442 Um, Oh, God. 00:11:26.622 --> 00:11:28.872 Yeah, I'll have to put it on Twitter so people can see it. 00:11:29.952 --> 00:11:33.582 Um, yeah, all of our branding was like cowboy theme, cuz we were like 00:11:33.582 --> 00:11:35.052 Geocodio Cody at rhymes with rodeo. 00:11:35.052 --> 00:11:38.262 And so all of our emails to people said howdy, like, and it 00:11:38.262 --> 00:11:39.732 was just, it was a whole thing. 00:11:39.732 --> 00:11:41.142 And it was not very authentic. 00:11:41.147 --> 00:11:41.412 Right. 00:11:41.442 --> 00:11:45.428 Cuz like, you know, I'm from Boston and Mathias is from Denmark and 00:11:45.428 --> 00:11:47.978 like we're not people who say like howdy and y'all all the time. 00:11:47.978 --> 00:11:50.522 So like it was just, it was kind of a mess. 00:11:50.762 --> 00:11:53.522 But we don't know any neither of us as a designer, we don't know anything about it. 00:11:53.822 --> 00:11:55.922 And I think maybe a year or two later we were like, you know what, 00:11:55.922 --> 00:11:57.752 we need to have like a proper logo. 00:11:57.757 --> 00:12:02.643 So we went to 99 designs because we had previously worked for a 00:12:02.673 --> 00:12:04.023 design and development agency. 00:12:04.023 --> 00:12:08.097 We knew we couldn't afford, as you said, a couple thousand to 00:12:08.127 --> 00:12:11.277 design a logo when that was like all our company was making at the. 00:12:11.357 --> 00:12:11.647 Lucie: Yeah. 00:12:11.652 --> 00:12:11.817 Yeah. 00:12:11.877 --> 00:12:12.807 I'm not surprised. 00:12:12.967 --> 00:12:15.247 Michele: Like, and I think actually for the software, so social 00:12:15.247 --> 00:12:17.218 logo, I just used some like. 00:12:17.568 --> 00:12:20.208 I just typed in like podcast logo generator. 00:12:20.208 --> 00:12:23.049 Cause I don't think I even really knew there was an option. 00:12:23.049 --> 00:12:26.819 So I'm like, I'm actually curious, like if I went to get a logo from 00:12:26.819 --> 00:12:28.559 logology, like how much would that cost? 00:12:29.063 --> 00:12:32.033 Lucie: It would cost $129, uh, for, yeah. 00:12:32.333 --> 00:12:35.783 Michele: Oh, so that's super competitive with 99 designs then. 00:12:35.813 --> 00:12:37.763 Lucie: Yes, it is . Yes, it is. 00:12:37.943 --> 00:12:39.353 It's the, the purpose. 00:12:39.353 --> 00:12:44.303 Yes, it is, is to be competitive with 99 designs and with other, 00:12:44.633 --> 00:12:46.643 um, even local generators. 00:12:46.643 --> 00:12:48.913 So you, you sum up it very well. 00:12:49.213 --> 00:12:52.563 Uh, you find there is two main problems. 00:12:53.059 --> 00:12:56.159 The first problem is it's not efficient. 00:12:56.369 --> 00:13:00.059 Michele: It's uh, in terms of like making the logo or like it, or 00:13:00.269 --> 00:13:01.919 the logo, like the result you get. 00:13:02.369 --> 00:13:04.079 Lucie: It doesn't resolve a problem. 00:13:04.139 --> 00:13:07.269 When you take a logo generator solution, you still have the 00:13:07.269 --> 00:13:13.509 problem of design because designing is, is about, resolving problems. 00:13:13.809 --> 00:13:16.089 And it's about telling story. 00:13:16.479 --> 00:13:17.439 And it's not easy. 00:13:17.439 --> 00:13:20.349 Like you said, you thought about the cowboy hats and stuff 00:13:20.349 --> 00:13:24.099 and realizing afterwards that it was not authentic for you. 00:13:24.519 --> 00:13:30.189 So telling a story, it's not easy and logo generators usually don't do that. 00:13:30.399 --> 00:13:33.309 And on the other hand, you have 99 design. 00:13:33.809 --> 00:13:38.289 But it is not ethical because, only one designer got paid. 00:13:38.289 --> 00:13:43.659 So it's I, well, it's not ethical, so yeah, we are competitive. 00:13:44.679 --> 00:13:51.399 We are, we want to be, uh, you can find the first, uh, logo package is at, I hope 00:13:51.399 --> 00:13:57.579 I'm not saying something wrong because we just increased our prices last week. 00:13:57.789 --> 00:13:59.379 That was a little bit, yeah. 00:13:59.379 --> 00:14:01.059 I was a little bit anxious about it. 00:14:01.059 --> 00:14:02.289 Like, oh really? 00:14:02.289 --> 00:14:03.489 Are we gonna do that? 00:14:03.494 --> 00:14:05.109 It was already working like that. 00:14:05.934 --> 00:14:06.144 Michele: Right. 00:14:06.144 --> 00:14:07.224 Let's not ruin it like right. 00:14:07.869 --> 00:14:08.139 Lucie: Yeah. 00:14:08.979 --> 00:14:10.059 but it's a good thing. 00:14:10.546 --> 00:14:13.906 We are providing more, images and more fives. 00:14:14.616 --> 00:14:24.516 Uh, and so the first logo package is that, 79, dollars, the second is at $129. 00:14:24.516 --> 00:14:26.466 As I was told you, as I was seeing you. 00:14:26.481 --> 00:14:27.501 Michele: What was it before. 00:14:28.003 --> 00:14:33.696 Lucie: Uh, before it was the first one was $49. 00:14:33.936 --> 00:14:36.566 And the second was 89. 00:14:37.441 --> 00:14:37.731 Michele: Okay. 00:14:37.736 --> 00:14:39.581 So this is like, 30, $40 jump. 00:14:40.131 --> 00:14:44.361 How Long did you think about that for before you ended up raising the prices? 00:14:45.289 --> 00:14:50.669 Lucie: Uh, we thought about it a long time because many of our 00:14:51.109 --> 00:14:53.349 customers told you, you should. 00:14:53.744 --> 00:14:55.874 Yeah, you really should increase the price. 00:14:55.874 --> 00:14:58.034 Like I'm so happy you should increase the price. 00:14:58.034 --> 00:14:59.894 And it's like, really I'm sure. 00:15:00.434 --> 00:15:09.724 And so Dagobert, uh, did a, huge, uh, work about a asking for feedback, organizing 00:15:09.724 --> 00:15:12.124 the feedback and reflecting on this. 00:15:12.124 --> 00:15:18.914 And it took a few weeks until Dagobert say, okay, honey, I have the solution. 00:15:19.394 --> 00:15:25.214 I know the price, exact price at which we can, uh, sell our product. 00:15:25.274 --> 00:15:30.508 It's very difficult to find the good price I think, but we also have, another 00:15:30.508 --> 00:15:32.728 package, which is the established package. 00:15:33.088 --> 00:15:39.164 It's when you, begin to have a, a little bit more, I would not say 00:15:39.164 --> 00:15:43.963 confidence, but, since you've got, have a few customers and you wanna 00:15:43.963 --> 00:15:46.273 go further on your brand identity? 00:15:46.963 --> 00:15:53.373 I work with the clients to make, a custom version of the logo. 00:15:53.553 --> 00:15:59.373 So it means like for example, you chose a parrot on our catalog 00:15:59.463 --> 00:16:02.783 of, uh, design and of logos. 00:16:03.263 --> 00:16:06.823 And, uh, you want this parrot just for you. 00:16:07.093 --> 00:16:10.529 And I can make version of this parrot just for you. 00:16:10.739 --> 00:16:13.799 It would not be exactly the same as before. 00:16:13.949 --> 00:16:19.919 It would be enhanced with your specific needs, your specific activity, the 00:16:19.919 --> 00:16:25.739 specificity of your, uh, personality, because, uh, as you understood, it's like 00:16:25.799 --> 00:16:30.049 a huge catalog with many, ways in it. 00:16:30.349 --> 00:16:35.669 I've designed, well, I, I have to mention it was long because, that's why the first 00:16:35.669 --> 00:16:43.811 year I was working without launching, because I designed, more than 700 logo. 00:16:44.291 --> 00:16:47.941 Each logo on the catalog was designed by me. 00:16:48.421 --> 00:16:50.851 It's not like sourced everywhere and stuff. 00:16:50.851 --> 00:16:53.751 It's like only my designs. 00:16:54.141 --> 00:16:58.311 So I really had to think of all the different possibilities. 00:16:58.791 --> 00:17:08.671 Uh, imagine someone who wants to make a biotechnology startup, what could be, uh, 00:17:08.761 --> 00:17:13.771 the personality of this kind of startup, what could be the kind of activities? 00:17:13.951 --> 00:17:18.511 How could I express the idea of cloud laboratory for 00:17:18.511 --> 00:17:19.501 example, and stuff like that. 00:17:19.831 --> 00:17:25.121 So if you want, you can go further with me, on a more , uh, logo. 00:17:25.698 --> 00:17:29.058 Michele: So it's interesting, this like lower version, that's basically like you 00:17:29.058 --> 00:17:35.314 have two more sort of straight, you buy it, you buy it online and that's kinda, 00:17:35.344 --> 00:17:38.044 it options like lower tier versions. 00:17:38.134 --> 00:17:40.654 And then you have this more bespoke version. 00:17:40.654 --> 00:17:43.894 But I think what's interesting about that is that like, it sounds like they still 00:17:43.894 --> 00:17:46.534 go through the quiz logo creation process. 00:17:46.834 --> 00:17:50.974 So you're not actually starting from scratch with them in the same way that 00:17:50.974 --> 00:17:55.204 you would, if you go into a design agency and you do this whole brand identity 00:17:55.204 --> 00:17:59.794 exploration and, you're doing a lot of hands on research and exploration 00:17:59.794 --> 00:18:02.914 with them, like, they're coming to you already saying, here's our company. 00:18:02.914 --> 00:18:04.594 We already know we wanna parrot. 00:18:04.624 --> 00:18:08.644 But like, you know, we don't know about the rest of the colors and color palettes. 00:18:08.649 --> 00:18:13.139 And like, we want it to look like, the parrots wearing a hat or whatever. 00:18:13.139 --> 00:18:15.299 And you're like, oh God, but okay. 00:18:15.299 --> 00:18:17.459 We'll find something that's a fun parrot. 00:18:17.459 --> 00:18:19.069 And they're like, yes, a fun parrot, right. 00:18:19.159 --> 00:18:23.119 But you're not starting from the point of them being like, we want something fun. 00:18:23.633 --> 00:18:24.053 And then, 00:18:24.068 --> 00:18:24.968 Lucie: Exactly. 00:18:25.148 --> 00:18:26.978 You, you, you complete. 00:18:28.358 --> 00:18:29.378 Yes, exactly. 00:18:29.378 --> 00:18:32.228 So you, you understand, you understand perfectly the, 00:18:32.233 --> 00:18:34.268 point, and it's exactly this. 00:18:34.268 --> 00:18:39.138 We can keep it affordable because, uh, audible, because even on the bespoke 00:18:39.158 --> 00:18:42.068 part, we already have all the information. 00:18:42.073 --> 00:18:46.278 We are not, as you said, starting from scratch with nothing, 00:18:46.668 --> 00:18:48.548 which would take long time. 00:18:48.993 --> 00:18:49.503 Michele: Yeah. 00:18:50.173 --> 00:18:52.803 So, so, this reminded me, as you were saying about, you know, people 00:18:52.808 --> 00:18:55.373 who are, you know, maybe more established companies, they need 00:18:55.378 --> 00:18:56.763 a bit more of a brand identity. 00:18:57.233 --> 00:19:01.933 This reminds me of a question that I often hear from, other founders, 00:19:01.993 --> 00:19:10.183 which is, what is the difference between UX UI and visual design? 00:19:10.183 --> 00:19:12.377 Because I think at certain, point, you know, people, especially if they're 00:19:12.377 --> 00:19:15.347 doing everything themselves and, and I guess used to use bootstrap, 00:19:15.352 --> 00:19:16.487 but maybe they're using tailwind. 00:19:16.487 --> 00:19:19.987 But like, everything is kind of off the shelf with, templates and they 00:19:19.987 --> 00:19:22.027 get to a certain point where like, you know what, we want a little bit 00:19:22.027 --> 00:19:25.647 more, we want better design, right. 00:19:25.647 --> 00:19:27.417 And they're like, how do we get better design? 00:19:27.867 --> 00:19:31.007 And there's these different types of design. 00:19:31.007 --> 00:19:36.277 And so maybe as a, sort of big UX person myself, like we should talk a 00:19:36.277 --> 00:19:40.557 little bit about what design means. 00:19:40.897 --> 00:19:47.713 Just to help people kind of get a sort of lay of the land, um, a little bit. 00:19:47.963 --> 00:19:52.433 We've talked a bit about visual design, that's kind of, like things like 00:19:52.603 --> 00:19:57.133 logo and the color palette, is there anything else that you would put in that 00:19:57.133 --> 00:20:03.863 visual design category, holding the UI UX categories aside for a moment? 00:20:03.863 --> 00:20:05.303 Like what makes visual design 00:20:05.303 --> 00:20:06.023 Lucie: Um, I 00:20:06.098 --> 00:20:07.408 Michele: compared to those other two? 00:20:07.543 --> 00:20:07.783 What does it 00:20:08.030 --> 00:20:09.710 Lucie: Yeah, it's a very interesting question. 00:20:09.710 --> 00:20:16.250 I would not exactly put UX and UE design apart from visual design 00:20:16.670 --> 00:20:18.710 and not UE design, at least. 00:20:18.963 --> 00:20:26.793 I would rather include visual design in brand design, which is the, the 00:20:26.893 --> 00:20:32.913 biggest, uh, layer above all this, it's about brand design and brand design, 00:20:33.243 --> 00:20:39.193 uh, is often something that we don't think about when we are founders. 00:20:39.213 --> 00:20:44.373 And especially when we begin in the beginning, we think of the product 00:20:44.433 --> 00:20:46.443 or the service we want to provide. 00:20:46.563 --> 00:20:51.963 And we don't think about this brand aspect, which is 00:20:52.023 --> 00:20:54.033 often related to marketing. 00:20:54.333 --> 00:20:59.460 And when we think of brand, we are thinking of, I don't know, maybe Nike 00:20:59.840 --> 00:21:06.620 or Coca-Cola or McDonald like huge stuff, which are so big with so many 00:21:06.620 --> 00:21:11.690 budget on advertising and stuff, which is not, uh, seems to be our world. 00:21:11.750 --> 00:21:17.982 But what is important to instant is that, from the moment you put your 00:21:17.987 --> 00:21:23.872 product or your service, in the world, people will have a perception of it 00:21:24.382 --> 00:21:31.812 and the perception of your name and the perception of who are you standing for. 00:21:32.412 --> 00:21:39.028 And so brand design is about creating a bond between your 00:21:39.828 --> 00:21:42.185 business and its audience. 00:21:42.735 --> 00:21:45.185 So you need to find who is your audience? 00:21:45.855 --> 00:21:53.165 What is, or her, uh, personalities and what do they like, what do they buy? 00:21:53.465 --> 00:21:54.995 What do they stand for? 00:21:55.495 --> 00:21:57.715 And you have to know who you want to be. 00:21:58.045 --> 00:21:59.395 Who will you represent? 00:21:59.395 --> 00:22:00.595 Who is your brand? 00:22:00.625 --> 00:22:02.665 Like if the brand was a person. 00:22:03.165 --> 00:22:10.865 And when you begin from this large vision, you can now look at visual design 00:22:10.865 --> 00:22:19.035 with logo and carros and fonts and, and chy of fonts and, uh, even the naming. 00:22:19.775 --> 00:22:26.285 And UX design as part of this, expression, I think it's Jeff Bezos. 00:22:26.375 --> 00:22:29.585 Uh, well, everybody know who is Jeff Bezos nowadays? 00:22:30.425 --> 00:22:31.445 he said something. 00:22:31.535 --> 00:22:33.035 He said something, I think. 00:22:34.415 --> 00:22:34.895 Yeah. 00:22:34.900 --> 00:22:35.315 Yeah. 00:22:35.315 --> 00:22:36.545 I think it's Seattle. 00:22:36.605 --> 00:22:36.905 Hmm. 00:22:37.385 --> 00:22:41.915 Uh, he said something interesting about brand is said that brand is 00:22:41.915 --> 00:22:47.780 what people, I don't have the exact quote, because I'm not native English 00:22:47.780 --> 00:22:50.960 spoken, but it said, uh, it said. 00:22:51.395 --> 00:22:57.415 Um, brand is what people are saying about you once you've leave the room. 00:22:57.590 --> 00:22:57.650 Michele: Yeah. 00:22:57.650 --> 00:22:58.370 He's he is some guy from Seattle, right? 00:22:58.370 --> 00:22:58.374 Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. 00:22:58.374 --> 00:22:58.376 It's OK. 00:22:58.376 --> 00:22:58.377 Hmm. 00:22:58.435 --> 00:23:01.615 Lucie: What people are saying about you, what people think about you 00:23:01.615 --> 00:23:05.995 when you're not there, uh, how do they figure out, who you are? 00:23:06.495 --> 00:23:12.905 And it's like, it's like a club or a group and a brand is like a, you 00:23:12.910 --> 00:23:17.765 know, it is like a, a flag saying, Hey, here is about, I don't know, 00:23:17.765 --> 00:23:22.205 here is about, uh, reliability, harness, honesty and expertise. 00:23:22.705 --> 00:23:23.485 Join my club. 00:23:23.495 --> 00:23:24.475 If you like, it. 00:23:24.985 --> 00:23:27.325 It's exactly what we try to say. 00:23:27.625 --> 00:23:32.958 But we are saying this with visual components with, uh, physical experience. 00:23:33.702 --> 00:23:39.102 It's so exciting and interesting, I think, but it's very so, and, uh, 00:23:39.102 --> 00:23:44.495 when you think of brand design, then you begin to see your business as 00:23:44.495 --> 00:23:51.652 not only something, a product or a service, but as, an entity, something, 00:23:51.712 --> 00:23:54.283 a person talking to other people. 00:23:54.789 --> 00:24:00.159 And so you begin to imagine, okay, how is this person dressed? 00:24:00.409 --> 00:24:03.349 What kind of words vocabulary? 00:24:03.659 --> 00:24:08.209 Because always like, the copywriting is part of the brand design, 00:24:08.779 --> 00:24:13.609 but what kind of gestures, uh, where can I find this person? 00:24:13.789 --> 00:24:16.579 Where does he, or she leave? 00:24:16.969 --> 00:24:17.659 For example. 00:24:18.164 --> 00:24:22.694 I don't know if it's clear, I'm just trying to put in images, this 00:24:22.694 --> 00:24:29.920 idea that UX and UE design, can be completely put aside visual design, 00:24:30.424 --> 00:24:33.214 which can be put aside of brand design. 00:24:33.754 --> 00:24:33.934 Michele: guess. 00:24:34.324 --> 00:24:36.904 Kind of a like, and I agree with that point, like there's a bunch of sort 00:24:36.904 --> 00:24:39.004 of overlapping ven diagrams here. 00:24:39.184 --> 00:24:39.544 Right. 00:24:40.044 --> 00:24:42.744 You know, I get, and I guess we'll, we'll get into that in a second, but 00:24:42.744 --> 00:24:46.074 like, in terms of, you know, to what you're saying about brand identity, 00:24:46.224 --> 00:24:50.064 it's basically what you're saying is that every product, every service, 00:24:50.244 --> 00:24:54.234 it has a brand identity, regardless of whether that's an intentional one. 00:24:54.654 --> 00:25:02.110 So for example, I might dress in, the latest runway fashion going out somewhere, 00:25:02.200 --> 00:25:07.570 and I'm intending to make a statement about who I am and, and my personality. 00:25:07.930 --> 00:25:11.050 I might also go somewhere in jeans and a t-shirt, which 00:25:11.055 --> 00:25:12.640 is normally how I go places. 00:25:13.180 --> 00:25:18.760 Um, not intending to make any statement about how I look or having 00:25:18.760 --> 00:25:21.034 really put any thought into it. 00:25:21.034 --> 00:25:26.014 And I'm just wearing what's, you know, off the basic rack at H and M, 00:25:26.404 --> 00:25:30.934 which is actually how I dress, and I'm not intending to make a statement. 00:25:31.204 --> 00:25:35.590 But I still have, I am still projecting if I were a service, 00:25:35.740 --> 00:25:37.570 like a brand identity, right? 00:25:37.575 --> 00:25:43.180 Like that projects something just as much as a, you know, a very 00:25:43.180 --> 00:25:46.510 loud, gigantic yellow dress, right? 00:25:46.510 --> 00:25:49.390 Like those both project, something, they both project something different. 00:25:49.890 --> 00:25:52.170 They both have different amounts of thought that have gone into it, 00:25:52.170 --> 00:25:55.740 but that still projects something and, and says something about me. 00:25:55.740 --> 00:26:00.040 And, says whether people, you know, gives other people a signal of whether 00:26:00.430 --> 00:26:04.460 I am maybe someone or something that, shares some of their values. 00:26:04.460 --> 00:26:07.100 Um, so even if it's not intentional or. 00:26:07.600 --> 00:26:07.990 Lucie: Yes. 00:26:07.990 --> 00:26:10.840 And it depends on the place you are going to. 00:26:10.990 --> 00:26:16.300 For example, if you are going to a friend close friend party, you will 00:26:16.300 --> 00:26:21.250 go there with your jeans and t-shirts, and it would be normal and okay. 00:26:21.550 --> 00:26:27.610 Uh, but if you go there with a, a gala dress with glitter and eye 00:26:27.610 --> 00:26:33.470 heels, and maybe they will find it a bit overdressed, but if you are 00:26:33.470 --> 00:26:39.270 going to the met gala or Tocan, you will need, something glittering. 00:26:39.690 --> 00:26:43.320 Or on the contrary, you can go to the met gala in jeans and people would, 00:26:43.510 --> 00:26:47.960 talk about you and saying, oh, have you seen this actress or model or this, 00:26:48.040 --> 00:26:50.830 woman coming to the me gala line jeans? 00:26:50.860 --> 00:26:52.240 Like I remember. 00:26:52.742 --> 00:26:58.112 A few years ago when, uh, cheryl stone went to, I can't remember if 00:26:58.112 --> 00:27:06.222 it was the Oscars or Grammy or can, or one of these, great glamour event. 00:27:06.722 --> 00:27:14.132 She went there dressed in a very simple gap dress and the next day, every 00:27:14.132 --> 00:27:16.592 newspaper we're, we're talking about this. 00:27:17.092 --> 00:27:24.144 And this is again about brand because as human beings, we are 00:27:24.174 --> 00:27:32.950 very sensitive to signs and symbol, and even just a color has something 00:27:32.955 --> 00:27:34.960 to say to us, it's a meaning. 00:27:35.260 --> 00:27:41.600 And just in a second, we are, giving a, a sense, a meaning to it, even if 00:27:41.600 --> 00:27:44.885 we don't think, consciously about it. 00:27:45.389 --> 00:27:51.659 And we are in a world to nowadays of information, like it was the 00:27:51.659 --> 00:27:56.479 case before, but now with internet and we are constantly, looking 00:27:56.479 --> 00:28:00.072 at new informations, new images. 00:28:00.719 --> 00:28:07.559 I can't remember the number of logos we are seeing each day, but it's huge. 00:28:07.564 --> 00:28:11.579 When you think of all the logos, you've seen all the colors, all the ads. 00:28:12.079 --> 00:28:16.279 So it's very difficult when you are launching a new product or a new 00:28:16.569 --> 00:28:19.789 business, uh, to say, hi, I'm here. 00:28:20.509 --> 00:28:21.229 Look at me. 00:28:21.229 --> 00:28:22.819 I have something to say to you. 00:28:22.999 --> 00:28:26.809 I want some to share something with you and it's difficult to find 00:28:26.809 --> 00:28:29.059 it, your place and to be heard. 00:28:29.419 --> 00:28:35.724 That's why you need branding, and I have to say, I'm very happy to have, 00:28:35.914 --> 00:28:41.540 created logology for this reason, because I do think it's so important. 00:28:41.545 --> 00:28:46.170 And I do think we can help entrepreneurs with this solution, 00:28:46.640 --> 00:28:52.434 like where otherwise you would not find a solution or you would not. 00:28:52.654 --> 00:28:55.427 Um, yeah, it's difficult to send out from the crowd. 00:28:55.929 --> 00:28:57.779 Michele: Yeah, I love your passion for this. 00:28:57.784 --> 00:28:59.069 That's really coming through. 00:28:59.569 --> 00:29:03.229 So I guess if we like continue the clothing analogy, just to make it 00:29:03.229 --> 00:29:07.029 sort of very straightforward for somebody who's like, I need better 00:29:07.029 --> 00:29:09.159 design, but I, where do I go? 00:29:09.159 --> 00:29:10.299 What, what do I do? 00:29:10.304 --> 00:29:14.229 Like, so kind of the, and knowing that there's a lot of overlap between 00:29:14.229 --> 00:29:18.519 these things and, and broader ideas at play, like sort of the, the 00:29:18.519 --> 00:29:22.837 visual design is the colors and the patterns of what I'm wearing. 00:29:23.337 --> 00:29:27.890 The UI or the user interface is sort of, I guess I would say that's like the 00:29:27.890 --> 00:29:29.660 features of what I'm wearing, right? 00:29:29.660 --> 00:29:31.490 Are there zippers, are there buttons? 00:29:31.540 --> 00:29:32.370 Is it a jacket? 00:29:32.860 --> 00:29:33.970 Is it pants? 00:29:34.030 --> 00:29:36.510 Like, what is the functions of it? 00:29:36.510 --> 00:29:41.147 What are the types of things that I can do with this piece of clothing? 00:29:41.207 --> 00:29:41.597 Right. 00:29:41.987 --> 00:29:44.777 And then you have the UX, which, and again, all of these things 00:29:44.777 --> 00:29:49.687 very much overlap, but it's like, can I actually use this for what 00:29:49.687 --> 00:29:51.277 I I'm supposed to use it for? 00:29:51.307 --> 00:29:54.397 Like, and do I want to do this in the first place? 00:29:54.607 --> 00:29:58.140 So for example, if my jeans have a zipper, that's great. 00:29:58.140 --> 00:30:02.490 But if the zipper is on the ankle and not at the waist, then that might 00:30:02.490 --> 00:30:04.620 be a problem because I can't close. 00:30:04.620 --> 00:30:06.150 There's no way to close or open the pants. 00:30:06.150 --> 00:30:06.480 Right. 00:30:06.720 --> 00:30:12.702 Or if it's a jacket, but if it's, a hot summer day, I don't want a puffy jacket. 00:30:12.702 --> 00:30:15.582 That's the, that that has a function, but it's the wrong 00:30:15.582 --> 00:30:17.832 function for what the user needs. 00:30:18.192 --> 00:30:22.182 And so, and all of these things kind of, you know, tie together because it's 00:30:22.182 --> 00:30:26.699 all sending a symbol to someone of, is this a product that, can help you. 00:30:26.939 --> 00:30:27.359 Right? 00:30:27.359 --> 00:30:31.782 And, and we, we make that decision not only based on the color and the look 00:30:31.782 --> 00:30:34.562 of it, but also the functions of it. 00:30:35.072 --> 00:30:39.932 And then whether we can figure out what those functions do and if they're the 00:30:39.932 --> 00:30:42.752 right functions in the first place. 00:30:43.254 --> 00:30:44.514 Lucie: Yes, exactly. 00:30:44.664 --> 00:30:49.813 And as I was listening to you, I was thinking that you are 00:30:50.083 --> 00:30:55.374 talking about empathizing, uh, with your users with others. 00:30:55.379 --> 00:30:58.884 And which is, I think the key of design. 00:30:59.025 --> 00:31:05.565 What could be difficult with brand design is not to forget that on one side, you 00:31:05.565 --> 00:31:13.366 have to express who you are, what are your values and, um, express emotion. 00:31:13.396 --> 00:31:15.346 You have to bring emotion in the game. 00:31:15.736 --> 00:31:20.566 Otherwise it's cold and nobody get interested in your solution. 00:31:21.256 --> 00:31:24.646 And on the other hand, you have to help. 00:31:25.148 --> 00:31:30.327 And relieved a pain, give solution, be functional. 00:31:30.827 --> 00:31:39.980 And so you have to think what did you want to say and how can you be in 00:31:40.040 --> 00:31:43.130 the other people's, um, perspective? 00:31:43.250 --> 00:31:45.770 You always have to take the user perspective. 00:31:46.267 --> 00:31:51.187 Once you've got this perspective, it's easier to find solution for 00:31:51.187 --> 00:31:54.397 your brand, and it will be easier to find solution for your product 00:31:54.397 --> 00:31:57.173 because, it will be tied together. 00:31:57.827 --> 00:31:59.447 I don't know if it's clear what I'm saying. 00:31:59.537 --> 00:32:00.137 Michele: Yeah. 00:32:00.467 --> 00:32:00.677 Yeah. 00:32:00.677 --> 00:32:01.967 Like you have that in mind. 00:32:01.967 --> 00:32:04.757 You know, I, often say like, you know, we listen to our customers, 00:32:04.757 --> 00:32:08.950 but like, customers are not gonna, they're not gonna hand you a roadmap. 00:32:08.950 --> 00:32:10.870 They're not gonna tell you what the finished product looks like. 00:32:10.870 --> 00:32:15.010 They're not gonna tell you what you are capable of building, and that's fine. 00:32:15.015 --> 00:32:18.955 That's not their job like their job, you know, if they have one really is 00:32:19.458 --> 00:32:22.128 for you to listen to them to understand what those problems are, right? 00:32:22.128 --> 00:32:25.638 Like your users before they were users, had a problem of, they 00:32:25.638 --> 00:32:27.288 wanted a logo for their companies. 00:32:27.528 --> 00:32:29.988 They couldn't afford to pay 2000 euros for one. 00:32:30.408 --> 00:32:30.828 Right. 00:32:30.878 --> 00:32:34.308 It, wasn't their job to tell you the solution here is logology. 00:32:34.508 --> 00:32:38.738 But if you went and just tried to, I want to create logos for entrepreneurs, but 00:32:38.738 --> 00:32:42.578 then you went out and did that without knowing there were these gaps in the 00:32:42.578 --> 00:32:44.648 market and why people wanted to do it. 00:32:44.648 --> 00:32:48.128 And, and maybe there's this people, you know, down at a lower end who just wanna 00:32:48.128 --> 00:32:51.392 pay starting out $50, but then maybe there's some people who want something 00:32:51.397 --> 00:32:55.532 a little bit more of bespoke, like you would not have had that context, 00:32:56.212 --> 00:33:02.325 that understanding of what was to the customer, without, that context. 00:33:02.325 --> 00:33:06.245 Like there's this framework that I often refer back to from Marty Kagan, 00:33:06.250 --> 00:33:08.915 who's the head of Silicon valley product group, who's a big product leader. 00:33:09.255 --> 00:33:12.280 You know, talking about the key elements, of a product. 00:33:12.280 --> 00:33:14.530 And let's see if I can remember them off the top of the head, but this is, 00:33:14.590 --> 00:33:20.860 is valuable, viable, feasible, and usable, which basically means that, 00:33:21.100 --> 00:33:24.910 you know, only the, customer can determine whether something, a product 00:33:24.915 --> 00:33:27.580 or service makes is valuable to them, whether it's something that they want 00:33:27.580 --> 00:33:29.050 to pay for that it solves a problem. 00:33:29.553 --> 00:33:32.553 And they also can only determine whether it is usable, right? 00:33:32.603 --> 00:33:35.363 As I said, you know, if I can't figure out how to close the jacket, 00:33:35.393 --> 00:33:36.773 it doesn't matter how pretty it is. 00:33:36.773 --> 00:33:38.243 Like, it doesn't matter how cheap it is. 00:33:38.293 --> 00:33:38.993 I can't use it. 00:33:38.993 --> 00:33:40.673 If I need one, like, it doesn't matter. 00:33:41.153 --> 00:33:46.367 But then, only the company or the entrepreneur can figure out 00:33:46.787 --> 00:33:53.127 what is feasible for them from a sort of technical and resourced 00:33:53.127 --> 00:33:55.227 perspective for them to create. 00:33:55.227 --> 00:33:55.497 Right. 00:33:55.497 --> 00:33:59.337 Like this would not have been feasible if neither of you was a logo designer. 00:33:59.767 --> 00:34:03.307 Even if it's valuable and usable by people, you could have drawn out this 00:34:03.307 --> 00:34:07.087 whole website, but if you, didn't have the ability to spend that year making the 00:34:07.087 --> 00:34:08.767 logos, maybe you can hire someone for it. 00:34:08.767 --> 00:34:10.932 But like that becomes a much bigger challenge. 00:34:10.932 --> 00:34:11.832 It's less feasible. 00:34:12.192 --> 00:34:16.233 And then also what is viable in the market, which is something that 00:34:16.323 --> 00:34:19.126 you guys are, still figuring out. 00:34:19.156 --> 00:34:22.406 But so it's, the customer determines whether it's valuable and whether it's 00:34:22.406 --> 00:34:28.286 usable and the company determines whether it's feasible and it's viable and you 00:34:28.286 --> 00:34:33.779 can't have a successful product without, the combination of, all of those things. 00:34:33.869 --> 00:34:33.899 I 00:34:34.254 --> 00:34:34.854 Lucie: Exactly. 00:34:34.854 --> 00:34:38.874 I think it's the combination of vision and empathy. 00:34:39.174 --> 00:34:41.558 Like you have to always deal with this. 00:34:41.814 --> 00:34:47.694 It reminds me that often when we speak of the visual design, we will go 00:34:47.694 --> 00:34:50.394 with our own tastes like for example. 00:34:50.394 --> 00:34:56.894 And it's very common or, current example, uh, among designers, the customer or the 00:34:56.894 --> 00:34:59.744 clients come and say, oh, I love purple. 00:34:59.774 --> 00:35:01.394 I want a purple logo. 00:35:01.754 --> 00:35:08.534 And once you begin to dig in the values or the kind of company it is, you say, 00:35:08.539 --> 00:35:13.748 mm, I don't think purple is good for you because purple is about, well, it can 00:35:13.753 --> 00:35:18.518 be a lot of thing, but purple is about transformation and magic and originality. 00:35:18.523 --> 00:35:24.178 And, um, so maybe for your bank solution, it could not be the 00:35:24.208 --> 00:35:26.098 best solution or maybe it is be. 00:35:26.113 --> 00:35:27.583 Michele: Think our bank is purple, actually. 00:35:27.748 --> 00:35:28.138 Lucie: It can 00:35:28.138 --> 00:35:28.678 be purple. 00:35:28.678 --> 00:35:31.168 I'm not saying I'm not saying that 00:35:31.273 --> 00:35:33.943 Michele: but they're also transforming banking, right? 00:35:33.943 --> 00:35:36.463 Like they are, they are transforming banking. 00:35:36.468 --> 00:35:37.398 It's all online. 00:35:37.398 --> 00:35:40.188 I don't have to go into a branch to send a wire. 00:35:40.188 --> 00:35:40.518 Right. 00:35:40.704 --> 00:35:43.609 It's a very fresh color for a bank. 00:35:43.639 --> 00:35:47.149 It's not an orange or a Navy blue, like which you would. 00:35:47.614 --> 00:35:53.644 Lucie: Like the traditional bank design, uh, maybe in the future, we'll 00:35:53.649 --> 00:35:59.704 see bank logos or bank branding with, Barbie pink and it will be, I will 00:35:59.704 --> 00:36:03.184 think you see a very fun bank maybe. 00:36:03.684 --> 00:36:08.594 But it is to say that you, when you think of your brand design, when 00:36:08.594 --> 00:36:12.394 you think of, yeah, your product design and stuff like that, you 00:36:12.394 --> 00:36:15.898 have to come from both perspectives. 00:36:16.258 --> 00:36:20.338 Not only the perspective of your clients, because as you said, clients 00:36:20.338 --> 00:36:21.868 will not give you the solution. 00:36:22.078 --> 00:36:25.678 You can't ask everyone in the street saying, what colors do 00:36:25.683 --> 00:36:27.538 you do you like for a bank? 00:36:27.808 --> 00:36:32.248 And maybe everyone will say blue, and it's not the color that you need. 00:36:32.608 --> 00:36:34.258 And you cannot come. 00:36:34.438 --> 00:36:39.958 Also neither from a place saying, I want purple because it's the 00:36:39.958 --> 00:36:41.488 favorite color of my daughter. 00:36:41.788 --> 00:36:43.858 And maybe it's not relevant for you. 00:36:44.098 --> 00:36:45.178 So it's the same. 00:36:45.178 --> 00:36:48.988 When you, when you build a service and a product, you need 00:36:49.078 --> 00:36:52.198 to combine vision and empathy. 00:36:52.423 --> 00:36:54.126 Michele: Yeah, I love that. 00:36:54.306 --> 00:36:57.196 So this has been really fun chatting with you about logos and design. 00:36:57.196 --> 00:37:00.184 And, I feel like I've definitely learned a few things about, 00:37:00.184 --> 00:37:01.714 thinking about brand design here. 00:37:02.068 --> 00:37:06.748 It's Michelle here, so I ended up having such a good conversation with 00:37:06.808 --> 00:37:13.128 Lucy Baratte that we decided to extend the episode and, combine it into two 00:37:13.158 --> 00:37:15.158 parts instead of, just one episode. 00:37:15.661 --> 00:37:20.541 And so you can listen to the second part, of that episode next week. 00:37:21.162 --> 00:37:25.842 Before we go, I wanna give a huge thanks to all of our listeners who've become 00:37:25.842 --> 00:37:27.792 software socialite and support our show. 00:37:28.302 --> 00:37:31.542 You can become a supporter for $10 a month or a hundred dollars a year 00:37:31.902 --> 00:37:34.662 at software social.dev/supporters. 00:37:35.166 --> 00:37:38.886 Chris from chipper CI, the daringly handsome Kevin Griffin, 00:37:39.246 --> 00:37:41.026 Mike from gently used domains, 00:37:41.631 --> 00:37:46.911 Dave from recut, max of online or not, Stefan from talk to Stefan, 00:37:47.421 --> 00:37:49.101 Brendan Andre of bright bits, 00:37:49.251 --> 00:37:56.151 Aaron from Tuple, Alex Hillman from the tiny MBA, Ramy from memo.fm, Jane and Benedikt 00:37:56.151 --> 00:37:59.871 from userlist, which by the way, just celebrated their fourth birthday. 00:37:59.871 --> 00:38:02.031 So happy birthday's userlist. 00:38:02.871 --> 00:38:07.371 Kendall Morgan, Ruben Gamez of signwell, Corey Haynes of swipewell, 00:38:07.376 --> 00:38:09.891 Mike Wade of crowd sentry, 00:38:10.426 --> 00:38:14.236 Nate Ritter of room steals, Anna Maste of subscribed sense, 00:38:14.566 --> 00:38:20.086 Geoff Roberts from outseta, Justin Jackson from mega maker, Jack Ellis 00:38:20.086 --> 00:38:24.886 and Paul Jarvis from fathom analytics, Matthew from appointment reminder, 00:38:25.186 --> 00:38:31.396 Andrew Culver at bullet train, John Kostor, Alex of Corso systems, Richard 00:38:31.396 --> 00:38:36.796 from stunning, Josh, the annoyingly pragmatic founder, Ben from consentkit, 00:38:37.476 --> 00:38:43.116 John from credo and editor ninja, cam Sloan, Michael Koper of nusii proposals, 00:38:43.416 --> 00:38:50.076 Chris from URL box, Caeli of Tosslet, Greg park from trait lab, Adam from 00:38:50.081 --> 00:38:57.876 rails autoscale, Lena and Alex from recapsy, Joe Masilotti of railsdev.com, 00:38:58.746 --> 00:39:03.216 Avid Kahl, James Sowers of castaway.fm, Nathan of develop your 00:39:03.666 --> 00:39:06.276 UX, Jessica Malnick, Damian Moore 00:39:07.221 --> 00:39:11.841 Audio audit podcast checker, and Eldon from nodlestudios. 00:39:12.341 --> 00:39:13.211 Thanks everyone.