Michele: Hey, everyone.
Welcome back to software social.
I am so excited to have with me today, Lucie Baratte.
She is co-founder and art director of logology.
You have probably come across logology on Twitter because of her husband
and co-founder Dagobert Dagobert Renouf who makes, so many funny,
um, memes about, running a company.
So Lucy, thank you so much for joining us today.
I'm so excited to have you.
Lucie: Thank you to have me.
I'm very happy to be there.
Thank you, Michelle.
And hi everyone.
Michele: So why don't you just first, tell us a little bit more about logology.
You guys started it in, fall of 2018.
Is that right?
Lucie: Yes, it is.
Fall of 2018.
The first year was building the product, and we really launched
the product in the spring of 2020.
And logology is a website where you can find, a branding for, um, your startup
in a few clicks, in a few minutes.
And it will automatically, propose for you, ideal or, well, we'll try to make
it the most perfect logo proposal for your startup, according to your values.
So when you go on logology, and you are looking for a logo or looking
for a branding, uh, identity, you can just take the, quiz.
It's a creative quiz, I would say.
And the quiz will help you define your personality, your startup personality.
And after that, you have the logo proposals, which matches, the personality
of your startup and your activities of course, and sector and activities.
Michele: So, so tell me, where did this idea come from?
Like how did you guys, get the idea of creating.
Lucie: Well, it was a long time ago.
We've first had the idea of creating a logo, fun and beautiful logo
generator in the first place.
It was I think, seven years ago.
And then we forgot about this.
And then it happened again that I was a graphic designer, specialize
in visual identity and logo design.
And I have to say, I was, wow.
I say quite famous in my hometown.
And so people were, calling me saying, oh, I loved what you've done
for this company and this company.
And I would love to have a brand identity designed by you.
And I would say, okay, so the prices I have, warn you that the
price is around, uh, 2000 and 3000.
And often I knew saying it, that it was too much for for this person, because
when you are still employed, you have a full-time job and you just want to try
something, you don't have investment for the moment, only your own savings.
Well, it looks too much money to, to spend on visual identity because
visual identity is essential.
I think it is essential for, uh, marketing your business and make
your product loved for, uh, others.
But in the same time, it's not like essential in the beginning that you
would put thousands of, dollars in it.
So I thought I didn't have a solution at this time when I was telling
people that I didn't have solution for them because I could not do less.
I could not do a logo, I would be custom logo or bespoke, and the only solutions
where, where I go on the internet and maybe you will find things in terrible
logo generator, or maybe, well, at least logo generator are awful solutions from
my designer perspective, because you don't have the expertise, uh, about branding.
It's just random, uh, logo design that you would find anywhere.
Or usually the icons or the logo is not something that has been designed
with a concept, with a story it's just like, icons from, non-project.
I like non-project, but it's not like logo design, it's icon
design and icons are not logo.
Well, this is maybe a bit technical, but it is to say that logo generators
are on from my perspective, not a great solution, even if they are very cheap.
So it's very affordable, which is a solution.
And the only solu, only other solutions that you could find on the internet
at this point was, design contests.
And as a designer, I hated this and I didn't want people to do that
because design contest is very, is a very sad proposition, because,
uh, it is, well, just to say, it is like you go on the website, you
ask for brand identity or a logo.
And I would say like, dozens of designers are gonna work on your
project from your brief, but only one will get paid in the end.
So I thought it was completely unfair and unethical, but I didn't have, um,
solution for, people with no budget or a very small budget and big and
great ideas because I'm fond of ideas.
I have to say that too.
I'm fond of ideas.
I love working with entrepreneurs because they put so much passion in what they
believe in and they are full of, uh, creativity, ingenuity, and I really
want to do something to help them.
So I begin to.
I don't know, I put this idea aside and I didn't know what to
do, and when Dagobert be, and I got married, we went on honeymoon.
And we went to United States because I'm fond of music.
So Dagobert be, was kind enough to follow me, uh, to Nashville and Memphis.
And it was gorgeous and beautiful travel trip.
And when we were at the hotel, we were, uh, looking at, um, a show,
a TV show, called shark tank.
And so you might know it of course, and I don't know how it come,
but Dagobert was on the internet.
And, and he found something about a founder who had the opportunity
to went to go on, shark tank and giving back his experience.
And he was, uh, He had launched, logo design online solution.
And we begin to think about this, like, oh, so there is a market and something
is possible in logo design online.
And, so I, I remember that this time, all the people that
I could not help in the past.
And I don't know when you are in the United States, you, when it's a road
trip, you spend so much time in car talking and, and reinvented the world
that we find this idea, like how, why not create a new solution, something
different that you could find online.
It could be affordable.
It could be beautiful.
It could be meaningful.
It could have, meaning, could tell stories.
It could help you.
And you know, when you start your business, when you have an idea, what
could be for me, what could be better that to have new shoes to go dancing, a
new suit to go to an employment meeting or a professional meeting, like it
helps you so much for your confidence.
And so when I was in the, plane on the way back, I was beginning to design
the website and how could we do this?
Because we really had to imagine a solution to get meaningful
logo and it was not easy.
So I was working with the key words from each logo and sectors, and that's how
it came and Dagobert, and I, we love, uh, we are very fond of, uh, any icon.
I don't know if you ever heard about this.
It's an analysis of the different human personalities.
And so we get inspired by this to create the, quiz.
I was working a lot with design thinking solutions in the past
to make workshop with my clients.
So I invented solutions like this and we create this quiz together.
Dagobert really has a product design vision, which was very most
precious for me, who has, I think, a vision of always all the multiple
solution, multiple possibles, um, which sometimes complicated.
So Dagobert was the one to say, okay, let's make it simple.
Let's keep it efficient.
And I was the one who always wanted to put magic.
I like the idea that it's a bit magical.
You discover your startup personality, and then you have logos that
matches, you can fall in love with.
So that's the story of logology.
Michele: I love that story.
I think, you know, I, I also find that we do some of our best business
thinking on road trips as well.
Like I think there's something kind of magical about it.
Maybe you're in a different place, but also there's no distractions, right?
There's no mailman coming to the door, there's no phone.
You Know, I get car sick.
So like, I'm not on Twitter, on my phone.
Right.
You know, you're kind of just there in one place with nothing else to do.
And it sounds like for you, you know, you had been carrying around kind of
this, both the sympathy for people you wanted to, help with their logos.
Because you're so passionate about the importance of visual design.
But also then seeing that, the solution, you weren't able to solve
them, you know, in your job and then, on a sort of bespoke basis.
But then also seeing that the other options out there for people,
either were not great from a design perspective, had some shortcomings
or from an ethical perspective.
I admit like our, our geo code logo comes from 99 designs, but we did it.
And I think, well, the first one actually was just made by me and Microsoft paint.
So, that was, pretty horrific.
It says new code with a little cowboy hat we drew over it.
It's like, it is so embarrassing.
Um, Oh, God.
Yeah, I'll have to put it on Twitter so people can see it.
Um, yeah, all of our branding was like cowboy theme, cuz we were like
Geocodio Cody at rhymes with rodeo.
And so all of our emails to people said howdy, like, and it
was just, it was a whole thing.
And it was not very authentic.
Right.
Cuz like, you know, I'm from Boston and Mathias is from Denmark and
like we're not people who say like howdy and y'all all the time.
So like it was just, it was kind of a mess.
But we don't know any neither of us as a designer, we don't know anything about it.
And I think maybe a year or two later we were like, you know what,
we need to have like a proper logo.
So we went to 99 designs because we had previously worked for a
design and development agency.
We knew we couldn't afford, as you said, a couple thousand to
design a logo when that was like all our company was making at the.
Lucie: Yeah.
Yeah.
I'm not surprised.
Michele: Like, and I think actually for the software, so social
logo, I just used some like.
I just typed in like podcast logo generator.
Cause I don't think I even really knew there was an option.
So I'm like, I'm actually curious, like if I went to get a logo from
logology, like how much would that cost?
Lucie: It would cost $129, uh, for, yeah.
Michele: Oh, so that's super competitive with 99 designs then.
Lucie: Yes, it is . Yes, it is.
It's the, the purpose.
Yes, it is, is to be competitive with 99 designs and with other,
um, even local generators.
So you, you sum up it very well.
Uh, you find there is two main problems.
The first problem is it's not efficient.
Michele: It's uh, in terms of like making the logo or like it, or
the logo, like the result you get.
Lucie: It doesn't resolve a problem.
When you take a logo generator solution, you still have the
problem of design because designing is, is about, resolving problems.
And it's about telling story.
And it's not easy.
Like you said, you thought about the cowboy hats and stuff
and realizing afterwards that it was not authentic for you.
So telling a story, it's not easy and logo generators usually don't do that.
And on the other hand, you have 99 design.
But it is not ethical because, only one designer got paid.
So it's I, well, it's not ethical, so yeah, we are competitive.
We are, we want to be, uh, you can find the first, uh, logo package is at, I hope
I'm not saying something wrong because we just increased our prices last week.
That was a little bit, yeah.
I was a little bit anxious about it.
Like, oh really?
Are we gonna do that?
It was already working like that.
Michele: Right.
Let's not ruin it like right.
Lucie: Yeah.
but it's a good thing.
We are providing more, images and more fives.
Uh, and so the first logo package is that, 79, dollars, the second is at $129.
As I was told you, as I was seeing you.
Michele: What was it before.
Lucie: Uh, before it was the first one was $49.
And the second was 89.
Michele: Okay.
So this is like, 30, $40 jump.
How Long did you think about that for before you ended up raising the prices?
Lucie: Uh, we thought about it a long time because many of our
customers told you, you should.
Yeah, you really should increase the price.
Like I'm so happy you should increase the price.
And it's like, really I'm sure.
And so Dagobert, uh, did a, huge, uh, work about a asking for feedback, organizing
the feedback and reflecting on this.
And it took a few weeks until Dagobert say, okay, honey, I have the solution.
I know the price, exact price at which we can, uh, sell our product.
It's very difficult to find the good price I think, but we also have, another
package, which is the established package.
It's when you, begin to have a, a little bit more, I would not say
confidence, but, since you've got, have a few customers and you wanna
go further on your brand identity?
I work with the clients to make, a custom version of the logo.
So it means like for example, you chose a parrot on our catalog
of, uh, design and of logos.
And, uh, you want this parrot just for you.
And I can make version of this parrot just for you.
It would not be exactly the same as before.
It would be enhanced with your specific needs, your specific activity, the
specificity of your, uh, personality, because, uh, as you understood, it's like
a huge catalog with many, ways in it.
I've designed, well, I, I have to mention it was long because, that's why the first
year I was working without launching, because I designed, more than 700 logo.
Each logo on the catalog was designed by me.
It's not like sourced everywhere and stuff.
It's like only my designs.
So I really had to think of all the different possibilities.
Uh, imagine someone who wants to make a biotechnology startup, what could be, uh,
the personality of this kind of startup, what could be the kind of activities?
How could I express the idea of cloud laboratory for
example, and stuff like that.
So if you want, you can go further with me, on a more , uh, logo.
Michele: So it's interesting, this like lower version, that's basically like you
have two more sort of straight, you buy it, you buy it online and that's kinda,
it options like lower tier versions.
And then you have this more bespoke version.
But I think what's interesting about that is that like, it sounds like they still
go through the quiz logo creation process.
So you're not actually starting from scratch with them in the same way that
you would, if you go into a design agency and you do this whole brand identity
exploration and, you're doing a lot of hands on research and exploration
with them, like, they're coming to you already saying, here's our company.
We already know we wanna parrot.
But like, you know, we don't know about the rest of the colors and color palettes.
And like, we want it to look like, the parrots wearing a hat or whatever.
And you're like, oh God, but okay.
We'll find something that's a fun parrot.
And they're like, yes, a fun parrot, right.
But you're not starting from the point of them being like, we want something fun.
And then,
Lucie: Exactly.
You, you, you complete.
Yes, exactly.
So you, you understand, you understand perfectly the,
point, and it's exactly this.
We can keep it affordable because, uh, audible, because even on the bespoke
part, we already have all the information.
We are not, as you said, starting from scratch with nothing,
which would take long time.
Michele: Yeah.
So, so, this reminded me, as you were saying about, you know, people
who are, you know, maybe more established companies, they need
a bit more of a brand identity.
This reminds me of a question that I often hear from, other founders,
which is, what is the difference between UX UI and visual design?
Because I think at certain, point, you know, people, especially if they're
doing everything themselves and, and I guess used to use bootstrap,
but maybe they're using tailwind.
But like, everything is kind of off the shelf with, templates and they
get to a certain point where like, you know what, we want a little bit
more, we want better design, right.
And they're like, how do we get better design?
And there's these different types of design.
And so maybe as a, sort of big UX person myself, like we should talk a
little bit about what design means.
Just to help people kind of get a sort of lay of the land, um, a little bit.
We've talked a bit about visual design, that's kind of, like things like
logo and the color palette, is there anything else that you would put in that
visual design category, holding the UI UX categories aside for a moment?
Like what makes visual design
Lucie: Um, I
Michele: compared to those other two?
What does it
Lucie: Yeah, it's a very interesting question.
I would not exactly put UX and UE design apart from visual design
and not UE design, at least.
I would rather include visual design in brand design, which is the, the
biggest, uh, layer above all this, it's about brand design and brand design,
uh, is often something that we don't think about when we are founders.
And especially when we begin in the beginning, we think of the product
or the service we want to provide.
And we don't think about this brand aspect, which is
often related to marketing.
And when we think of brand, we are thinking of, I don't know, maybe Nike
or Coca-Cola or McDonald like huge stuff, which are so big with so many
budget on advertising and stuff, which is not, uh, seems to be our world.
But what is important to instant is that, from the moment you put your
product or your service, in the world, people will have a perception of it
and the perception of your name and the perception of who are you standing for.
And so brand design is about creating a bond between your
business and its audience.
So you need to find who is your audience?
What is, or her, uh, personalities and what do they like, what do they buy?
What do they stand for?
And you have to know who you want to be.
Who will you represent?
Who is your brand?
Like if the brand was a person.
And when you begin from this large vision, you can now look at visual design
with logo and carros and fonts and, and chy of fonts and, uh, even the naming.
And UX design as part of this, expression, I think it's Jeff Bezos.
Uh, well, everybody know who is Jeff Bezos nowadays?
he said something.
He said something, I think.
Yeah.
I think it's Seattle.
Hmm.
Uh, he said something interesting about brand is said that brand is
what people, I don't have the exact quote, because I'm not native English
spoken, but it said, uh, it said.
Um, brand is what people are saying about you once you've leave the room.
Michele: Yeah.
He's he is some guy from Seattle, right?
Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.
It's OK.
Hmm.
Lucie: What people are saying about you, what people think about you
when you're not there, uh, how do they figure out, who you are?
And it's like, it's like a club or a group and a brand is like a, you
know, it is like a, a flag saying, Hey, here is about, I don't know,
here is about, uh, reliability, harness, honesty and expertise.
Join my club.
If you like, it.
It's exactly what we try to say.
But we are saying this with visual components with, uh, physical experience.
It's so exciting and interesting, I think, but it's very so, and, uh,
when you think of brand design, then you begin to see your business as
not only something, a product or a service, but as, an entity, something,
a person talking to other people.
And so you begin to imagine, okay, how is this person dressed?
What kind of words vocabulary?
Because always like, the copywriting is part of the brand design,
but what kind of gestures, uh, where can I find this person?
Where does he, or she leave?
For example.
I don't know if it's clear, I'm just trying to put in images, this
idea that UX and UE design, can be completely put aside visual design,
which can be put aside of brand design.
Michele: guess.
Kind of a like, and I agree with that point, like there's a bunch of sort
of overlapping ven diagrams here.
Right.
You know, I get, and I guess we'll, we'll get into that in a second, but
like, in terms of, you know, to what you're saying about brand identity,
it's basically what you're saying is that every product, every service,
it has a brand identity, regardless of whether that's an intentional one.
So for example, I might dress in, the latest runway fashion going out somewhere,
and I'm intending to make a statement about who I am and, and my personality.
I might also go somewhere in jeans and a t-shirt, which
is normally how I go places.
Um, not intending to make any statement about how I look or having
really put any thought into it.
And I'm just wearing what's, you know, off the basic rack at H and M,
which is actually how I dress, and I'm not intending to make a statement.
But I still have, I am still projecting if I were a service,
like a brand identity, right?
Like that projects something just as much as a, you know, a very
loud, gigantic yellow dress, right?
Like those both project, something, they both project something different.
They both have different amounts of thought that have gone into it,
but that still projects something and, and says something about me.
And, says whether people, you know, gives other people a signal of whether
I am maybe someone or something that, shares some of their values.
Um, so even if it's not intentional or.
Lucie: Yes.
And it depends on the place you are going to.
For example, if you are going to a friend close friend party, you will
go there with your jeans and t-shirts, and it would be normal and okay.
Uh, but if you go there with a, a gala dress with glitter and eye
heels, and maybe they will find it a bit overdressed, but if you are
going to the met gala or Tocan, you will need, something glittering.
Or on the contrary, you can go to the met gala in jeans and people would,
talk about you and saying, oh, have you seen this actress or model or this,
woman coming to the me gala line jeans?
Like I remember.
A few years ago when, uh, cheryl stone went to, I can't remember if
it was the Oscars or Grammy or can, or one of these, great glamour event.
She went there dressed in a very simple gap dress and the next day, every
newspaper we're, we're talking about this.
And this is again about brand because as human beings, we are
very sensitive to signs and symbol, and even just a color has something
to say to us, it's a meaning.
And just in a second, we are, giving a, a sense, a meaning to it, even if
we don't think, consciously about it.
And we are in a world to nowadays of information, like it was the
case before, but now with internet and we are constantly, looking
at new informations, new images.
I can't remember the number of logos we are seeing each day, but it's huge.
When you think of all the logos, you've seen all the colors, all the ads.
So it's very difficult when you are launching a new product or a new
business, uh, to say, hi, I'm here.
Look at me.
I have something to say to you.
I want some to share something with you and it's difficult to find
it, your place and to be heard.
That's why you need branding, and I have to say, I'm very happy to have,
created logology for this reason, because I do think it's so important.
And I do think we can help entrepreneurs with this solution,
like where otherwise you would not find a solution or you would not.
Um, yeah, it's difficult to send out from the crowd.
Michele: Yeah, I love your passion for this.
That's really coming through.
So I guess if we like continue the clothing analogy, just to make it
sort of very straightforward for somebody who's like, I need better
design, but I, where do I go?
What, what do I do?
Like, so kind of the, and knowing that there's a lot of overlap between
these things and, and broader ideas at play, like sort of the, the
visual design is the colors and the patterns of what I'm wearing.
The UI or the user interface is sort of, I guess I would say that's like the
features of what I'm wearing, right?
Are there zippers, are there buttons?
Is it a jacket?
Is it pants?
Like, what is the functions of it?
What are the types of things that I can do with this piece of clothing?
Right.
And then you have the UX, which, and again, all of these things
very much overlap, but it's like, can I actually use this for what
I I'm supposed to use it for?
Like, and do I want to do this in the first place?
So for example, if my jeans have a zipper, that's great.
But if the zipper is on the ankle and not at the waist, then that might
be a problem because I can't close.
There's no way to close or open the pants.
Right.
Or if it's a jacket, but if it's, a hot summer day, I don't want a puffy jacket.
That's the, that that has a function, but it's the wrong
function for what the user needs.
And so, and all of these things kind of, you know, tie together because it's
all sending a symbol to someone of, is this a product that, can help you.
Right?
And, and we, we make that decision not only based on the color and the look
of it, but also the functions of it.
And then whether we can figure out what those functions do and if they're the
right functions in the first place.
Lucie: Yes, exactly.
And as I was listening to you, I was thinking that you are
talking about empathizing, uh, with your users with others.
And which is, I think the key of design.
What could be difficult with brand design is not to forget that on one side, you
have to express who you are, what are your values and, um, express emotion.
You have to bring emotion in the game.
Otherwise it's cold and nobody get interested in your solution.
And on the other hand, you have to help.
And relieved a pain, give solution, be functional.
And so you have to think what did you want to say and how can you be in
the other people's, um, perspective?
You always have to take the user perspective.
Once you've got this perspective, it's easier to find solution for
your brand, and it will be easier to find solution for your product
because, it will be tied together.
I don't know if it's clear what I'm saying.
Michele: Yeah.
Yeah.
Like you have that in mind.
You know, I, often say like, you know, we listen to our customers,
but like, customers are not gonna, they're not gonna hand you a roadmap.
They're not gonna tell you what the finished product looks like.
They're not gonna tell you what you are capable of building, and that's fine.
That's not their job like their job, you know, if they have one really is
for you to listen to them to understand what those problems are, right?
Like your users before they were users, had a problem of, they
wanted a logo for their companies.
They couldn't afford to pay 2000 euros for one.
Right.
It, wasn't their job to tell you the solution here is logology.
But if you went and just tried to, I want to create logos for entrepreneurs, but
then you went out and did that without knowing there were these gaps in the
market and why people wanted to do it.
And, and maybe there's this people, you know, down at a lower end who just wanna
pay starting out $50, but then maybe there's some people who want something
a little bit more of bespoke, like you would not have had that context,
that understanding of what was to the customer, without, that context.
Like there's this framework that I often refer back to from Marty Kagan,
who's the head of Silicon valley product group, who's a big product leader.
You know, talking about the key elements, of a product.
And let's see if I can remember them off the top of the head, but this is,
is valuable, viable, feasible, and usable, which basically means that,
you know, only the, customer can determine whether something, a product
or service makes is valuable to them, whether it's something that they want
to pay for that it solves a problem.
And they also can only determine whether it is usable, right?
As I said, you know, if I can't figure out how to close the jacket,
it doesn't matter how pretty it is.
Like, it doesn't matter how cheap it is.
I can't use it.
If I need one, like, it doesn't matter.
But then, only the company or the entrepreneur can figure out
what is feasible for them from a sort of technical and resourced
perspective for them to create.
Right.
Like this would not have been feasible if neither of you was a logo designer.
Even if it's valuable and usable by people, you could have drawn out this
whole website, but if you, didn't have the ability to spend that year making the
logos, maybe you can hire someone for it.
But like that becomes a much bigger challenge.
It's less feasible.
And then also what is viable in the market, which is something that
you guys are, still figuring out.
But so it's, the customer determines whether it's valuable and whether it's
usable and the company determines whether it's feasible and it's viable and you
can't have a successful product without, the combination of, all of those things.
I
Lucie: Exactly.
I think it's the combination of vision and empathy.
Like you have to always deal with this.
It reminds me that often when we speak of the visual design, we will go
with our own tastes like for example.
And it's very common or, current example, uh, among designers, the customer or the
clients come and say, oh, I love purple.
I want a purple logo.
And once you begin to dig in the values or the kind of company it is, you say,
mm, I don't think purple is good for you because purple is about, well, it can
be a lot of thing, but purple is about transformation and magic and originality.
And, um, so maybe for your bank solution, it could not be the
best solution or maybe it is be.
Michele: Think our bank is purple, actually.
Lucie: It can
be purple.
I'm not saying I'm not saying that
Michele: but they're also transforming banking, right?
Like they are, they are transforming banking.
It's all online.
I don't have to go into a branch to send a wire.
Right.
It's a very fresh color for a bank.
It's not an orange or a Navy blue, like which you would.
Lucie: Like the traditional bank design, uh, maybe in the future, we'll
see bank logos or bank branding with, Barbie pink and it will be, I will
think you see a very fun bank maybe.
But it is to say that you, when you think of your brand design, when
you think of, yeah, your product design and stuff like that, you
have to come from both perspectives.
Not only the perspective of your clients, because as you said, clients
will not give you the solution.
You can't ask everyone in the street saying, what colors do
you do you like for a bank?
And maybe everyone will say blue, and it's not the color that you need.
And you cannot come.
Also neither from a place saying, I want purple because it's the
favorite color of my daughter.
And maybe it's not relevant for you.
So it's the same.
When you, when you build a service and a product, you need
to combine vision and empathy.
Michele: Yeah, I love that.
So this has been really fun chatting with you about logos and design.
And, I feel like I've definitely learned a few things about,
thinking about brand design here.
It's Michelle here, so I ended up having such a good conversation with
Lucy Baratte that we decided to extend the episode and, combine it into two
parts instead of, just one episode.
And so you can listen to the second part, of that episode next week.
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