Jesse: Hey, my name is Jesse J.
Anderson host of the ADHD Nerds podcast.
The show where we talk about living with ADHD and have some fun along the way.
This is episode one, and I am talking today with one of my favorite
people, my friend, Stephen Scott.
Stephen shares, hard won wisdom on life and fatherhood, and we talk a
bit about life with a radiant brain, systems for creating and writing, and
guilt-free meditation and morning pages.
Stephen, welcome here.
It's great to have you.
Stephen: Hey, Jesse, it's good to be here.
I love what you're doing.
And this topic is very close to my heart.
So happy just to hang out and see if we can share some ideas back and forth.
Jesse: Awesome.
So I know because we're friends, we've talked a lot about it.
I know you haven't officially been diagnosed with ADHD, but
you're pretty sure you have it.
And I'd love to hear kind of what that story was like.
Like when did you first start to think that you might have it and what
sorta, maybe convinced you and yeah, just like what, what does that kind
of ADHD origin story like for you?
Stephen: Yeah, thanks.
Well, I need to go back to being a student and I remember very distinctly when,
uh, there's an educational psychologist that was in the classroom and she was
just observing what was happening.
And after class she called me out of class and said, I noticed you
got up quite a bit and you were, you know, moving around the classroom.
And she was asking me about that.
Um, you know, from a very early age, I knew that I was different
and I thought differently.
And I was always, when my school, it was kind of the gifted students program
is what it was called, and I always tested into the gifted students program.
But when I got there, I wasn't able to, to sustain it.
I remember very distinctly that I would do problems in a different way, and I didn't
have the, the skills to, to stay in the program and then I was moved back down.
And so, yeah, that was, that was a very early recognition that I was
smart, I was gifted, but I wasn't able to fit into the box that the
teachers wanted me to fit into.
So that was my first indicator.
Jesse: Right, right.
Yeah.
I have, I had the same sort of thing where I like, you know, in elementary school
have like advanced test placement where they're like, oh, this kid's real smart.
We should put him in with the smart kids or whatever.
And then, yeah, and then everything fell apart.
And pretty soon it was like, oh, this is maybe not.
Uh, I know there's a thing called twice exceptional, which is like, sort of
referring to the idea of like one being exceptional, and that they're smart or,
you know, testing well, whatever you want to say, that intelligence level.
And then exceptional in like having a neurodivergence like having ADHD
or autism or something like that.
But yeah, I actually, in seventh grade I placed into eighth grade.
And then I got a D so they held me back.
So in eighth grade I was in eighth grade math again.
And then I got held back a third or a second time.
So I ended up taking the same math class three years in a row,
seventh, eighth, and ninth grade.
I took eighth grade math, but never could quite progress.
Yeah.
Stephen: You know, I have a couple of math stories.
It's interesting to me because I remember being placed in a higher math class also.
And for whatever reason, I was drawing boxes around all my problems.
And a student turned to me and said, we don't do that here.
We don't draw boxes around our problems, but it was, it was helpful for me for
whatever reason to segment my page.
It was working for my brain.
And another math story, I remember on the eighth grade, there was a math test
and the teacher gave an advanced problem and I ignored the rest of the test.
You know, there 30 questions on it and I only focused on the advanced problem,
because she said, none of you will be able to solve this, this is a advanced problem.
And so I got a zero on everything, but I was able to
solve the, the difficult problem.
So I, yeah, I, I was definitely different as a student and to fast forward.
I remember when the book came out, Driven to Distraction and I, I saw it in a
bookstore and I was kinda like hiding, looking at this and reading and thinking.
Wow, this is me.
And there was a lot of shame.
There was a lot of embarrassment about the potential of being diagnosed with ADHD.
I never went on to receive a formal diagnosis because I would judge
myself as working at a high level.
And I also recognize that I've suffered because of the way that my brain is work.
It's, it's been challenging sometimes.
I think that I have to work harder than other people.
And I wouldn't trade it.
I, I actually love the way that I think, and I would describe myself as having
a radiant brain, an expansive brain.
But it definitely does create more work, uh, at, at times.
Jesse: Yeah.
It's, it's funny your story with math, I think that's probably
really common with a lot of people.
I'm solving the problem in the way that works for me.
And it works like I'm coming up with, with answers.
And then for some reason, people jump in and want to just say,
like, that's not how we do it.
We don't do it that way.
And which is always just like, so it was so frustrating hearing that
growing up because I'm like, why not?
Like, why wouldn't, if this works for me and this is the easy way for
me to do it, why isn't that allowed?
It's like, there's, kids in school, not knowing that they're being
gatekeepers, of just like how to do math, which is so ridiculous.
And I've also done the thing you said of like, just focusing on the challenge,
that like that, because it sparks that interest and that competition of like,
oh, you don't think I can do this.
I'm going to prove you wrong and show you that I can take on this big challenge.
Stephen: Yeah.
And I've heard you talk about choosing things that are fun.
For me, the reason why I chose that last problem is because it was, it was one of
the teacher said, none of you can do it.
And so I was like, wait a minute, I'll do that.
And it was also fun and I didn't realize until much later in life,
that mathematics, as an example, it's, it's solving a puzzle.
It's, it's looking for a beautiful solution.
And when I was in school, it was just drudgery because it was, you
have to solve in a particular way.
I think if I had found a teacher that said math is beautiful, math
is actually a creative enterprise.
I might've done, uh, you know, succeeded in math, but I didn't, I didn't really
understand that math is a beautiful puzzle until much later on in my life.
Jesse: Right.
Yeah.
I recently kind of posted about, I had one math teacher that sort of like stuck
out of like, she understood like, okay, something's different about this kid?
I've I've no idea if she knew I had ADHD.
Cause like no one knew at the time.
But she recognized that same sort of like, okay.
He does not like doing the repetitive math, giving him homework to do everyday.
Like I just didn't do any homework ever, but I would do really well on my tests.
So I was learning.
I just couldn't, the drudgery, like you said, I could not embrace the drudgery.
But I loved the challenges.
So this teacher actually gave me, she started giving me problems to work on.
So she would hand out like homework to everyone else or classwork,
you know, just like repeat the problem over and over again.
But me, if I, as long as I kept my quizzes and tests like high, my grades high.
She would give me problems to work on instead.
So I would spend all time in math class working on these like complex
math problems and kind of like what you suggested oh, this, this is like,
there's like creativity in this.
Like there can be creativity in math and like all these like puzzle solving.
And I think that's where like my career today where I'm a designer and
a developer, it's like problem solving.
I love solving problems.
And that like ADHD part of my brain really embraces that.
Stephen: That's incredible.
And I think I had the illusion in life that academics had to be one path because
oftentimes teacher, you know, with 30 kids in a class that would say, here's how you
solve it and you have to do it this way.
The elegance of solving a design problem or solving a math problem is, is
looking at, at other ways of doing it.
And I think that's a, it's an incredibly valuable skill to say here's a problem.
And there are multiple solutions.
And then to kind of pull back and say, what's the most elegant solution.
What's the most beautiful solution.
Jesse: Yeah, that totally rings true in like the development world.
Like, the way you solve problems, it's like, it doesn't matter what, it doesn't
matter how you do it as far as like, you can do it any way you want, but
there's elegant ways to do it for sure.
And nicer ways to do it.
And ways you can solve a problem where you're like, this is going to
make things easier for future Jesse, because I'm putting in the work now to
really line it up and make it awesome.
Cool.
I know, I know you've been, you know, we met through the Ship 30, uh, Ship
30 for 30 challenge, which was like, hey, write, you know, write and ship
something every day for 30 days, which I don't know about you, but I
was not a writer before that at all.
I don't even know why I took the challenge.
Um, and so I kind of am curious, why did you take the challenge?
Like what drew you to this, this sort of a creative challenge of writing
and releasing, publishing stuff?
Stephen: Yeah, thanks, Jesse.
I've always felt that I've had a message that I wanted to, to share in my own
personal backstory, in addition to what I shared about having a different brain.
I had a speech impediment growing up, and so school was very difficult for me.
I, when I spoke people, laughed at me and made fun of me.
And so I was very quiet.
And I reached a point in my life where I knew that I had so much inside that I
wanted to share wisdom and stories, and I wanted to give value to other people.
And I was tired of hiding.
I was tired of being small.
And so I wanted to stretch the voice of public expression.
And I do that, I've learned to do that in professional settings and
friendship settings, but I wanted to put myself into a scary situation of
actually, not just creating something and I've done that my whole life.
Creativity has been just a passion of mine.
You know, whether it's poetry or writing stories or writing, you know, taking
notes or photography, you name it.
It's just always been a passion.
But for me, the move was to go from expressing myself in a small group
to expressing myself in public.
And really stretching the muscle of, of sharing myself with the world.
Jesse: Right, right.
Yeah.
Uh, do you have, do you have any like creative processes you use
for continuing to create content?
Like systems that work maybe for awhile, maybe you switch them up.
I know me, I have like a new system every couple of months.
Cause the old one gets boring and now it's time to move on to create,
a new way to propel me forward.
But yeah, so like what kind of systems or creative process do you kind of embrace?
Stephen: Chaos.
Yeah, there's there's chaos.
And then I try to, piece things together.
So it's like taking, taking a cup and throwing it on the ground and it shatters
and then trying to put it back together.
Not really, but, but there is an element of, of picking up pieces.
So I hear something I'm thinking about something.
I have a dream, I write something in a journal and what I try to do when
I'm writing an essay, it's trying to, to bring it all together and it
reaches a point where it's just, it's just something that I have to say.
It's just something that, that emerges.
As far as systems I would benefit from having a system.
I think there's a, there's a part of my brain that, that knows that.
Setting up, okay, from this time to this time, every single day
that I would benefit from that.
Oftentimes I fly with, uh, inspiration or what I feel like doing.
That doesn't always work for me because I'm trying to, to
shoe horn things together.
So that's the honest answer I can, maybe hear from you.
I could say more like other things that I do, but that's the, it's a little chaotic.
Jesse: I love that because personally, I always feel like when people ask
questions like that, I feel like this pressure to sort of like make up a system
like, oh, I guess I sort of follow this.
And it's like, kind of, my answer also is kind of chaos.
Like I kind of switched from one thing to another to sort of like
propel things going forward.
But I remember early on when we were both doing Ship 30 and we were like, you know,
connected and we're talking about things.
And I was, at one point I was struggling and kind of reach out
to you, and like, how, how are you sort of keeping things going?
Like, how are your systems working?
And you just said, uh, all my systems are in collapse, which I loved
because it felt like so honest and authentic and vulnerable of like,
it's like the, uh, what is it?
The duck metaphor where like, everything looks calm on the surface,
but it's chaos under the water.
And that's how I felt like, because a lot of the content you create is very calming.
Like that's sort of your presence.
And so I was almost like, well, he must have it all figured out.
And to find out that you didn't was really freeing for me of like,
hey, it's okay that we're both kind of behind the scenes in chaos.
Um, but putting our best foot forward, like that's not to take anything away
from us, but it's like the reality.
And I think systems can be really helpful but, part of the thing that
I've just had to embrace with my ADHD brain is like systems are, I'm
almost never going to find a system that's going to work long-term.
Because I'm like, I'm going to get bored of it, or I'm going to forget about it.
And it just will sort of fade away a lot of the time.
Stephen: Yeah, that's a great point.
And I want to say that, I do have many systems, but I choose
systems to fit where I am in life.
And it actually was very difficult because sometimes people will ask me how I did
something and I can't, it's like alchemy.
It's like the things come together and it's just like, kind of get into a flow.
And sometimes I might open up in a mind map because that's
going to relax my brain.
Other times I'll write something out, uh, longhand.
And so the way that I would describe it is what happens to
my brain and my soul, my spirit.
It's just like, there's something churning and I have
to find a way to relax my brain.
So sometimes I might turn to a mind map sometimes I'll turn,
I turn to analog writing.
Sometimes I go into my database or my Obsidian vault, and I start
putting things together, but I don't have just one way to do it.
I think the, the system that I want to create for myself is simply allocating
the time and to say that from six o'clock to seven 15 is my, my creative time.
And just to allow whatever happens.
But yeah, I would never want to be in a situation in which maybe it's like
school, where the teacher says, okay, you just have to do it this one way.
I want to embrace a, you know, sometimes I'm picking up crayons.
Sometimes I'm picking up chalk.
Sometimes I'm picking up watercolors.
Sometimes I'm picking up a camera, but the point is to make something beautiful.
The tools don't really matter that much to me.
Jesse: Yeah, I love that.
Absolutely.
I think that's a great metaphor of remembering how we, like so often people
with ADHD like felt trapped in school and felt like those constraints and like,
that's, I don't want to do it that way.
And so I think kind of embracing that later in life and like, as
you're trying to, you know, being a creator and creating things.
There's like this weird paradox.
I feel like where we crave structure.
We crave there being this perfect system that everything's going
to be automated and everything's magically going to happen.
And I think it's because we know about like the downfalls that can happen
from the chaos, but chaos is kind of part of the package of like, I want
to create amazing, beautiful things.
Chaos is going to be part of it.
I like the metaphor of juggling chainsaws where it's like, that
is chaos and it's dangerous.
And the more chainsaws you kind of add to that, that situation,
the more like scary it is.
And it's all gonna come crashing down.
But it's also exciting and interesting, like, like someone juggling like two
chainsaws is great, but if they're juggling like 12, it's like, this
is, I can't take my eyes off it.
Like this is chaos and I'm loving it.
Um, and I think that's sort of, kind of the thing like that chaos
is almost important to being able to effectively create stuff.
That's interesting.
And doesn't feel like, like you just kind of filled in a template to, uh,
you know, write out another three point essay or whatever it might be
like you're creating something unique, partly because the systems aren't there.
Stephen: 100%.
Jesse: Um, yeah.
I think that's awesome.
Stephen: Yeah.
And to know yourself and to know which tools to pick up when.
So for example, I mentioned mind-mapping, it's been one of the most important
tools in my life because when I began to mind-map something I could have a
lot of ideas and I could start bouncing around and then it begins to take shape.
I could start dragging things and creating order and seeing how things are connected.
Uh, so that's been, that's been very helpful.
Another thing that's been helpful for me is returning to analog journaling.
So I use a, ballpoint pen or a fountain pen and a nice notebook.
And when I started getting back into it, it was actually
very agitating to me because it just, it just felt uncomfortable
holding the pen and it felt slow.
But it's actually been, been so helpful to, to slow down to deepen.
So, yeah, I think those are just two examples that I, I I'm mostly a mind
map digitally, but I also like, uh, you know, writing long hand as well.
Jesse: Right, right.
Yeah.
I mean, you mentioned like it feeling slow.
That's I I've tried to do that before.
There's um, I don't remember the name that like doing morning pages,
there's the book, Artist's Way.
Yeah.
Julia Cameron, thank you.
Uh, where she talks about doing morning pages and specifically recommending to
like handwrite it and stuff like that.
And I tried to do.
I did it two days in a row.
And I was like, it was torture.
My brain was just like, I could not slow down my brain.
My brain was just mad at my, my stupid hand, the whole
time that couldn't keep up.
And then in then my handwriting gets like worse and worse and, uh, terrible.
So yeah, I think it's important to find systems that work for you.
And that's awesome that that seems like it's really working for you and
slowing down, in a good way and not in a um, angry brain like mine was.
Stephen: We talk about that for a minute?
Jesse: Yeah.
Stephen: So in the morning pages she recommends is recommends
three pages long hand.
And I finally rebelled against that.
I did that for years and instead I've changed it to time and
it's made all the difference.
So instead of three pages, I'll just at the time, or for however
much time, I have maybe, maybe even five minutes, 20 minutes.
And I just write until it's done.
And I used to get angry when I felt like I had to fill up three pages
because I'm just like trying to go fast and my handwriting gets messy.
But for me to say,
Jesse: Yeah, that's where I was.
Stephen: Yeah.
I'm here for 10 minutes.
And I also take the questions that you said.
I'm a meditation teacher too.
And I begin to turn them to myself, I begin like, why am I so angry right now?
Why is this so annoying?
What's what's happening right here.
What's underneath it.
And just in staying present to myself and slowing down, I go to a deeper place.
So for me journaling in this way, it's a different way of meditating, but it's
still a very soulful, meditative act.
So it does work for me quite a bit.
And it's journaling, mind-mapping, meditation.
I think those are all different ways that I relax my brain.
Just find a place of calm, spaciousness, openness.
Once I get there, good things happen in my life.
Jesse: Right, right.
That's awesome.
I know there's been lots of studies that kind of show the effectiveness of,
you know, just taking five minutes to meditate and it's like the thing I wish
I was better at and probably should spend some time trying to do more because the,
like the science is there to back it up.
It's not like just some woo woo, sort of thing, like the science is there
that shows how it can be effective and specifically that it can be
effective in treating ADHD symptoms.
So it's something I've wanted to do more of that I haven't.
Stephen: And I just do want to note that you used the word should, so
don't should on yourself, Jesse, is you know, the classic joke.
I do have a concern that yes, the science is there, but sometimes people
push all of this too much as the magic bullet and the cure, you know you
have to meditate, you have to journal three pages, here's the way to do it.
And for me, I always have a reaction against that as, as a meditation teacher,
as a practitioner, because all, everything that we've been talking about, I think,
you know, in the ADHD community, it's that we all have different, different
brains and different experiences.
And, for me, the move is to find something that works again.
I'm using the word, like whatever, relaxes my brain.
And it's like that if I don't meditate, my brain starts getting very busy
and starts turning things over.
I do have specific things that I do where I, it will calm my
anxiety or open up my brain.
I see things in a different way.
And I don't think there's just one way to do it.
I think there's multiple paths to that.
It's like, I don't, I never want to be the math teacher that says you
have do it this way, show your work.
And we don't do it like that.
We don't, we don't draw boxes around our problems.
Jesse: Right, right.
Yeah.
That's, that's a great point.
I think it's so important to recognize, for me, I, I always
try to recognize things that are working and hang on to them.
So like I have, like, I have certain albums that I listen to because they
help get me into the right zone.
And like this album over here might be really good for like, oh, I got
to do like work, some programming stuff or this other, other soundtrack
is like my go-to for writing.
Like I need to spit a bunch of ideas out and I kind of have those, like it, yeah.
It's just like kind of recognizing those things that work and hanging on to them
and then trying to recreate that sort of environment, which is effective.
Like that environment stuff I think really can help a lot.
One final thing I want, I want to ask.
Before we get to shiny objects
. So you've sort of been talking a lot about, parenting being a father.
And I know you recently have talked about your, you know, your
relationship with your father, um, all that that, that kind of entails.
And just want, want to give you like a space to sort of talk about
like, what, what is sort of your mission right now and your, your
message that you're trying to spread.
Stephen: Yeah, thanks Jesse.
My idea is to deepen my experience of being a son.
And deepen my experience of being a dad and to share that with
other people, I have suffered deeply as both a son and as a dad.
And I have so much wisdom and experience to, to share.
I know that there are many, younger dads, I'm 56, I know there's dads
in their thirties and forties that maybe don't have a community
they're trying, they're struggling.
They're trying to figure it out.
And I feel very fortunate that I've had throughout my whole life.
I've had incredible mentors and fantastic training that has prepared
me for all of the challenges that I've had in my, in my life.
And so I want to be a person who, who gives back and supports
other people on their journeys.
Life can be tremendously challenging and difficult, and I want to be a rock
and a guide and a light for people that are, are going through difficult times.
Jesse: That is awesome.
I love that.
I, I think your, your presence on Twitter and wherever else is just
so positive and encouraging, and you just have a warm presence.
Uh, which I think is partly why we connected and yeah, I just
love seeing what you're doing.
Stephen: Thank you.
Jesse: And where you're going from here.
Uh, it's awesome.
Stephen: Thank you, Jesse.
Jesse: Now it's time for Shiny Objects.
A place to share what shiny objects have grabbed your interest lately.
Or, just something you could recommend to people that you might find
fascinating, or useful, uh, whether it's a book, movie, whatever it is.
Stephen: So the problem, Jesse, is that when you say what's one shiny
object, it's like wait a minute.
My, my life doesn't work like that.
It's like, you mean the shiny objects of today or the shiny.
So I'll give you, I'll give you two.
So.
Jesse: Perfect, perfect.
Stephen: So on Monday, Apple released a new software update and there's a new,
technology called Universal Control.
And what it enables you to do is have your Mac computer here
and your iPad right next to it.
And so using the same keyboard and mouse are able just to drag over to
your iPad and start typing on the iPad and then just drag your mouse back
and you're typing on your computer.
So I think that is, uh, a very interesting tool for me as a writer and as a creator
to be able to, to be able to use two screens, use the iPad in a different way.
I also know that it could be very tempting.
Oh, let me just go over to the iPad and check Twitter and see
what's happening over there.
So I know it's a double-edged sword.
Jesse: Yes, yes.
Stephen: The second thing that I want to say, which I think is incredibly helpful.
There's an app called Endel E N D E L, and it's a music app.
AI generated music and I simply love it.
I love it for many different reasons.
When I'm working, I don't have to think about what music I'm going to put on.
I just put on my headphones and I begin working and I know that it just
psychologically, emotionally, it gets me into the groove of, of creation.
In addition, there's a timer built into it.
So what I do is when I work, I'll, I'll set this timer, but I'll also
set the timer in the music to end a few minutes before this one.
So I could wrap up, whatever I'm doing.
So, Endel would be my, uh, app that I, I enjoy working with.
And third one, my son is a music creator too.
I like to listen to his music too.
So Quagis, Q U A G I S.
So I'll plug him as well.
Jesse: Nice, nice.
That's awesome.
Yeah.
Endel's great.
I used to use it.
I switched to using Brain FM, which is really similar and yeah,
I use it very similar to you.
It's just so nice to like, sometimes I have a soundtrack that I need to
go to and sometimes there's like, I dunno, I just need sound happening.
And I don't want to have to pick something.
I just open the app, set it to go, and yeah Endel's great.
Endel also has like the really creative little animations that
happen on the screen, which I, yeah, those are, those are really fun.
My shiny object just real quick.
I I've been watching the show Severance, which is on Apple TV Plus, and it's this
wild dystopian show, like it's basically.
It's not like future dystopian.
It's like modern time, but there's this company that the main character
Adam Scott works at and they are into some like shady practices.
I don't want to spoil it for people that are going to watch it.
The trailer does kind of spoil some things, so I would avoid the
trailer and just watch the first episode and see if you like it.
But it's just that, that right level of creepy and mystery.
And you're trying to kind of figure out like what, like
what's behind this company.
Cause obviously there's a lot of weird things going on, but
you can't really explain it yet.
Anyway, that's like the show that my wife and I, every, every time a new episode
comes out on Friday, we got a, we got to, get to Severance and watch that one.
And it's directed by Ben Stiller, which is kind of random
because it's not, comedy all.
It's kind of dark comedy, but yeah.
Stephen: I just, can I go one more?
Jesse: Sure.
Yeah.
Stephen: All right, so one more would be.
Jesse: Your fourth, fourth one.
Stephen: Yeah, exactly.
Ricky Gervais, After Life have you heard of that?
So.
Jesse: I've heard of it.
I haven't seen any of it but I've heard of it.
Stephen: Yeah, it's it's it's extraordinary.
So I thought of it because you, you mentioned a comedian
doing something different.
It's, it's brilliant.
It's very, very, complicated about, uh, grieving and relationships and community.
Highly recommend it.
Jesse: Awesome.
All right.
And finally, like where, if people want to see what you're doing, where
can they follow you and see kind of your, uh, goings on like what
what's going on with Steven Scott?
Stephen: Yeah.
Thanks, Jesse.
The, uh, the easiest way is to find me on Twitter.
I'm S S C O T T Y.
Uh, it's @sscotty.
I'm laughing because I know that's confused you in the, in the past.
So S S C O T T Y.
Jesse: In my head, you are Scotty.
That's like the head that's I had to, I just said your name, Steven Scott.
And I had to think about it.
Like, what's the name?
Cause in my head it's S Scotty, like that's just in my brain, but it makes it
really easy to remember your Twitter name.
Just S Scotty.
Stephen: Yeah, well, you can call me Scotty any time you want.
You call
me Steve, you call me Stephen.
Stephen: I'll answer to most things.
Jesse: Awesome.
Cool.
Well, thank you so much for being here, this was great.
Stephen: Jesse, it was great to be on your show.
Thank you so much for having me.
Jesse: That's our show, thanks for listening.
If you want to support the show and the other work I do, you
can go to patreon.com/jessej.
That's J E S S E J.
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Full show notes and transcription are available at adhdnerds.com.