CAT intro
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Zoe: [00:00:00] Welcome to the Autism and Theology Podcast, brought to you by the Center for Autism and Theology at the University of Aberdeen

Hello, and welcome to this episode of the Autism and Theology Podcast. I'm Zoe, and it's great that you've joined us this week. This podcast is a space where we engage with the latest conversations in the field of autism theology, share relevant resources, and promote ways to help faith and non-faith communities enable autistic [00:01:00] people to flourish.

This podcast is run from the University of Aberdeen's Center for Autism and Theology, which we shorten to CAT. If you would like to access a transcript for this episode, it can be found via the link in the show notes. On today's CAT Chat episode, Ian and I are gonna be chatting about kind of how we engage with scripture, helpful things we do, um, as neurodivergent people to support our engagement with scripture, and then also chat about some kind of, like, foundational texts that we come back to.

Ian, I wonder if you wanna kick us off by, like, chatting about your experience of engaging with scripture as an autistic person, um, and kind of, yeah, how you engage with scripture and helpful things. 

Ian: I think one of the things for me as an autistic person, as a neurodivergent person, one of the interesting ways that I have of engaging with scripture that is, that is I guess unique or is, or is distinctive compared to a lot of the people that I'm in Bible studies with or that I, I e-engage in discussion, [00:02:00] discussing scripture with is, um, is sort of similar to, uh, some of the autistic stereotypes around social cues, right?

So in that if, if I don't understand the, the reason for a social norm, that I'm willing to question it and say, "Why, why are we doing this? What's the, what's the necessity of this particular behavior?" And I think the same is true of engaging with scripture, whereas a lot of neurotypical engagement with scripture, and I'm painting with the broadest possible brush, so I don't mean to stereotype or, or diminish anyone's, um, personal experience.

But a lot of neurotypical people pick up on the social cues that say, "This is the way you're meant to interpret this particular passage. This is the way you're meant to engage with this particular story," and you don't deviate from that. And part of what I, what I am interested in doing and willing to do is say, "Does that actually...

Is that actually consistent [00:03:00] with the text as it appears? And if not, why not, and what does that mean for the way that we've sort of traditionally interpreted that passage? Is there, is there something missing? Is there something about this passage that we have sort of taught ourselves it's not okay to ask, or you can't look behind the curtain or that sort of thing?"

And I think often there is. Like, there's more to the story or we've gotten used to interpreting it in, in one singular way. And oftentimes scripture is nothing if not ambiguous, and so it has more than one potential meaning. And sometimes there's real, um, depth and, and real growth to be gained from engaging with it in that way and, and, and saying, "What are the things that I haven't explored about this?

What are the possible meanings that I haven't sort of taken advantage of?"

Zoe: I think that's so interesting as well because it comes back to our conversations. I think in our previous Catch Up episode, we were talking [00:04:00] about, like, small groups and how sometimes the questions, like, expect a certain answer and that can be really difficult if you're not, um, thinking on the same wavelength about something and you're kind of then, oh, I'm wrong because I'm not answering the question.

And it's, I really like that idea of being willing to, like, say, "Well, okay, this is what we're maybe interpreting it as, but what if it could be this or what if it could be that?" And almost that, like, exploring scripture instead of just processing information and gaining knowledge I think is a really interesting thing.

And it kind of reminds me of, um, I have not researched this myself, so I don't, like, this is just an example. But I was listening to a podcast recently that was talking about, like, the woman who gives, like, her last coin. Um, and that's seen as, like, an example of, like, tithing. And then the person on the podcast was saying, "Well, actually, it could also be interpreted that Jesus was telling off the spiritual leaders for not caring enough for [00:05:00] their, for the vulnerable in their community, and expecting so much of them, and not kind of, like, expecting them to give their finances and not offer care instead."

And again, I've not researched this myself. I don't know if that's a valid interpretation. But it's that kind of idea of being willing to say, like, "Well, we're always taught these things. But what if there's maybe a different angle?" Or, I don't know, like, you know, sometimes you get those texts that you think you know the story.

Um, like, for example, I was, um, I preached on Pilate's wife recently, and I've heard that story. I know that story so well of Jesus's trial, but I never picked up on the part of the story where Pilate's wife is like, "You should not do this." Like, "This is, this man is innocent." And again, it's like you assume that you know a passage because you've heard it so many times, they're familiar, and then you read something that kind of changes entirely your interpretation.

Or not [00:06:00] entirely, but, like, shifts your interpretation a little bit and opens it up more. And, um, yeah, that's a massive, long tangent response, but yeah, I really, yeah, really interesting what you've shared there.

Ian: I think that's especially true of, uh, passages that we know really, really well. Like, um, the Passion, of course, is one that we hear frequently. The Nativity story is another, um, where i- when you, when you get right down to it and you're doing like, say, a Bible study on Matthew's gospel or on Luke's gospel, you very quickly realize that for the Nativity story that we have in our minds or the Nativity set that we have sitting out or the creche that we have sitting out, it's, it's actually a, a sort of cross or a, or a harmonization of at least two different gospel stories because you have both the shepherds and the angels and the wise men, and those come from two different gospels, uh, making two different points, right?

So one of the things that, uh, about engaging with scripture is so often we have this sort of [00:07:00] meta-narrative in our head. We have this assumption of how things go, and sometimes what it really takes is, is digging down deeper and engaging with the words that are actually there on the page and saying, "Does this, does this say not only what I'm used to hearing it say, but does it say what I expect it to say or what I, what I assume that it says?

And, or, or does it say something less or something more? And what does that do to my understanding of this particular story, especially as it's employed by this particular writer?" So, um, yeah, there's just a lot to that, a lot to the idea that, um, that, that we tend to hear what we expect to hear, and sometimes what we really need to do to engage with scripture is take a step back and hear it in, in, in the ways in which the evangelist or the author is actually expressing it, which sometimes is very, very different.

Zoe: Yeah, 

it kind of [00:08:00] reminds me of, I remember being in, like, concert band when I was in school, and, um, the, like, conductor getting on at us 'cause we were playing something on autopilot, that we weren't reading the sheet music. It was, like, a familiar tune, so you're playing it how you... in, like, autopilot. Um, and yeah, it kind of reminds me of that idea.

But coming back to the kind of like how we engage with scripture, I think as a dyslexic person, a really interesting point for me to think about, 'cause I have a very complicated relationship with the Bible. I really enjoy, like, I study theology, um, or studied theology.

I'm no longer studying theology. I suppose I still am, um, in some ways. But, like, studying theology, I do really enjoy digging in scripture and exploring things and, like, thinking critically about stuff in response to scripture. But at the same time, as a dyslexic person, I've always found it really hard to have kind of, like, regular Bible reading, um, habits or whatever you wanna [00:09:00] call them, because it's just, it can be quite exhausting for me, it can be hard for me to process what I'm reading.

And I think there's like, yeah, a lot of, like, pressures around that for me. Um, but yeah, I think that's something, a lot of what I wrote on and I've shared about in the podcast before, is authentic Bible engagement. And since finishing my PhD, I've been thinking a lot about what authentic Bible engagement looks like for me as a dyslexic person with my, like, very specific experience of dyslexia.

Um, and I've just been trying to, like, I mean, Ian and I chatted briefly about this at the beginning, trying to think about, like, meditating on scripture. Um, so like, I've been finding it really helpful going through the Psalms and meditating on it, write, like taking things from the Psalms and then writing them down and speaking about it and reflecting on statements and, that are taken from scripture.

And I think that's been, like, an interesting thing t- that I've never really done before, that sort of breaking away from that I must [00:10:00] sit down and read the Bible like a book, and just trying different things. And that's not something that would work for everyone, but yeah, that's something that's been working for me recently.

Ian: Yeah. I think one of the most, uh, damaging, or maybe not the most damaging, but one w- one damaging thing that we do with Scripture is treat it like a book and not like a library and assume that what you have to do in order to be a faithful Christian is sit down and read every word of Scripture.

And we, we treat it as though, um, sort of, sort of breadth is better than depth. Um, and I, I don't find that to be the case. There are, there are... Y- you know, I, I, I don't think any word of Scripture is unimportant, but I think there are portions that, especially for believers looking to go deeper in the faith, um, that you could go a long time without reading and not really feel the lack.

Um, do you... And, and you know this every time someone [00:11:00] tries to start reading through the Bible because they always start out, start out at the beginning. They start at Genesis, and they always stall out, like, right around, uh, Leviticus, right? And so, um, h- what I find helpful is not necessarily reading every single word of Scripture or trying to read every word of Scripture, but finding those passages that really are foundational, that really are fundamental, that really are basic to our understanding of the faith.

And everyone has those, I find, um, at least one or two, right? So maybe it's Psalm 23 in the King James Version. Maybe it's Romans chapter 8. Everyone has something, um, that they gravitate towards that is sort of at the core of their understanding of what it means to be a faithful Christian, what it means to be a follower of Christ.

And one of the most helpful things that we can do is sort of build out that particular library. What's the library of texts that really, uh, inform our [00:12:00] worldview, that, that are the lens through which we interpret everything that happens? Um, and maybe that's a very Anglican answer because in the, in the Book of Common Prayer we have, in morning and evening prayer, we have these canticles, which are selections of Scripture that are supposed to be that for us in a way.

They're songs that we sing that help us interpret everything that takes place. Um, but I, I, what I find is, is really drilling down and, and identifying those passages for us as individuals and holding on to those deeply is so much more useful than being able to check off the, off the box that says, "I've read every word of Scripture."

Does that make sense?

Zoe: Yeah, that makes a lot of sense. I think this is something where, like, I mean, I speak about it a bit in my own research about, like, Bible in a year, um, which is quite a popular thing in a lot of, um, churches, I mean, in the UK, but I'm assuming it's, like, [00:13:00] popular in the US as well. But it's this, like, plan where you read through the entire Bible, and it's so helpful for some people.

But then for a lot of people, it just leads to this kind of sense of failure. And then, yeah, you're doing it as, like, a tick box. I've read the whole Bible. Not that everyone does it and experiences that, but from, like, a lot of what I found in my research is people feeling like, um, like one of our participants kind of sarcastically said, um, when I asked them why they kept doing Bible in a year because they felt like they were failing at it every time I asked them why they did it, and they sarcastically responded saying, "Because every good Christian does Bible in a year."

And I think that is the kind of like, that is problematic, and I like what you're saying about having those, like, building that almost like, um, I can't remember how you described it, but building that sort of bank of foundational texts, um, that you come back to every time. What is your kind of like foundational text or texts?

Ian: [00:14:00] Yeah. So I, I mean, I have a few. Um, you know, one of them is, um, y- yeah, I, I could, I could spend a lot of time talking about this. One of my favorite ones is, um, Joseph and his brothers, right? So Joseph is sold into slavery by his brothers. He goes, he makes a, you know, makes a name for himself in Egypt. His brothers eventually c- have to come begging.

He saves a bunch of food, um, that helps preserve them from a famine that strikes. But, but when they are eventually brought back together face-to-face in that story, my favorite translation of what he says when they apologize, uh, is, "Y- you intended this for evil, but God intended it for good." And so just that idea that even, even human nature, even evil in the world, evil intentions in the world can be used by God for good, um, is, is something that I think is w- without which I would really feel adrift [00:15:00] in the world, right?

It's, it's one of those things that I hold onto when I see really terrible t- things take place that, yes, this is terrible, but maybe God can make good out of it.

That doesn't mean this is all part of God's plan. That doesn't mean that we aren't doing terrible things to each other, but it means that, that even this can be redeemed by God eventually, even if I don't see how. Um, and so Joseph, the one who was sold into slavery, being the one to speak that line, I think is really, is really key for me.

There's also, um, you know, um, there's a few others that stick with me. One of the ones that I like that's sort of tongue in cheek is the Jesus calming the storm on the Sea of Galilee. Um, because in, I think it's Matthew's version, I'm pretty sure it's Matthew's version, um, the, the disciples are all awake, worried, and Jesus is asleep in the boat.

Um, [00:16:00] and they have to wake him up and they say, "Lord, don't you care that we are perishing?" And it's, and, and immediately it's like he's... He doesn't snap his fingers, but it's like he snaps his fingers and all of a sudden, um, the storm ceases. Um, and I, I like to joke around when I do, when we come to that in Bible study or, um, when I'm talking about that passage, that sometimes the things that feel to me like I'm perishing are not even significant enough to wake Jesus up, right?

Um, and it's not that it's m- meaningless or it's not that there's no danger involved, but it really, like that kind of perspective, um, is, is sometimes really helpful for me. Um, there's a few others. That's just a couple examples but, um, but those types of foundational texts that you can come back to again and again when times are tough or when you need a, a life preserver or when, when, um, when [00:17:00] your faith is shaken or, or when something happens that you don't really have an understanding for or an explanation for, um, those, having some of those texts that you can lean on, I, I don't know how people get by without it, to be honest.

Zoe: Yeah. It's a really interesting question. So like I think even for me that is even something, like, for me, like, even in points where I've not really read the Bible at all, it's still you come back to those texts that are foundational even in that situation.

Like, for me, like, Romans 8 about nothing being able to separate, um, us from the love of God. And, um, like, um, just Jesus' grace on, like, um, forgiving whichever disciple is on the beach, and it's like, um, he, like, forgives the disciple three times, and those kind of, like, really beautiful moments of Jesus' kindness.

Like, coming back to those and, yeah, I think there is so much value [00:18:00] in not just sort of being able to, like, quote them from memory and being like, "Oh, John whatever, whatever says this," and, like, quoting it, but actually having that, like... Um, one of my participants described it as, like, having, like, an anchor point for your faith, and I really like that.

It's kind of like it's not having these verses so you can just quote it in an argument. It's having these verses so that you can call them to mind to, like, shift your perspective, and, yeah. And that's not an exclusively neurodivergent thing, but I think when we're talking about a lot of the difficulties we can encounter as neurodivergent people, there's something to be said about having those passages or, like, stories or verses that just, like, anchor us to God instead of...

And find our, like, value and, like, find the situations that we're in, in God rather than in people in a lot of ways. 

Ian: Yeah, absolutely. I think, [00:19:00] um, y- y- that's the thing is, is w- what, if we want to be faithful Christians, if we want to, to live out scripture, if we want to pick up our cross and follow Christ, if we wanna pray without ceasing, if we wanna be perfect as our Heavenly Father is perfect, if we wanna do any of the w- any of the things that we say being Christian makes up, then the hardest part is connecting our faith to every point of our life, right?

And reminding ourselves that there is no aspect of our lives or of the human experience that is outside the care or the purview or the sphere of God's mercy, right? The hardest part, and this is the parish priest in me talking, but the hardest part of being a faithful Christian is living out our witness in the six days, the six other days of the week, right? It's very easy to be faithful on Sunday afternoon when you go to brunch, although not everyone [00:20:00] manages that.

But it's very easy on that day, and then Monday you're a little bit further from it. Wednesday, you're even further from it. So connecting your faith to every moment of your life, whatever that takes, is to me the hard part of, of being a faithful Christian. And the more stories you have that help you interpret the world, not as the world tells you to interpret it, but as God tells us to understand and interpret the world, then the more...

Y- the, the easier it is going to be to live out your faith. 'Cause you're gonna encounter a situation and normally you would react according to the world by saying, "I need to protect what's mine," or, "I need to take care of myself." But if you can relate that to our faith or to a story from scripture, then you can say not, "How would the world want me to respond?

How have I been trained to respond by an upbringing in the world?" But, "How can I respond in a way that's Christian, and, and [00:21:00] authentically Christian, and based on what Christ actually teaches?" 

Zoe: Ian, 

I think that is a very powerful way to end the episode. Um, but yeah, thank you so much everyone for listening.

I feel like we could chat about this for ages, as is always the case with our episodes. Um, but yeah, thank you so much for listening. Our next episode in our Autism, Neurodiversity, and Sacred Text series will be with Sophia on the Quran, and Krysia will be bringing that episode to you. I'm really enjoying this series, and yeah, if you're enjoying it, if you have any feedback, if you have any other last-minute suggestions for guests that we can bring in, please send us an email or, um, message us on social media @autismtheology.

Even if it's just to say hi, we would love to hear from you

[00:22:00] thank you for listening to the Autism and Theology Podcast. If you have any questions for us or just want to say hi, please email us at cat@abdn.ac.uk or find us on Twitter @autismtheology.