WEBVTT 00:00:03.300 --> 00:00:04.530 Matt Abrahams: Hi, Matt here. 00:00:04.980 --> 00:00:08.340 On Think Fast Talk Smart, we spend a lot of time helping you communicate 00:00:08.340 --> 00:00:11.880 more clearly and confidently, especially when the stakes are high. 00:00:12.150 --> 00:00:17.010 That's why I'm so excited today to share a conversation I had on Masters of Scale. 00:00:17.340 --> 00:00:20.550 I joined host, Jeff Berman, to talk about what it really takes 00:00:20.550 --> 00:00:22.260 to communicate with intention. 00:00:22.590 --> 00:00:25.590 Whether you're leading a team or just trying to think on your feet. 00:00:25.980 --> 00:00:28.530 We get into some practical frameworks I rely on. 00:00:28.760 --> 00:00:31.700 Like how to structure your answers in high pressure moments. 00:00:32.060 --> 00:00:35.840 Why most people focus too much on what they want to say instead of what 00:00:35.840 --> 00:00:39.890 their audience needs to hear, and how to turn communication from a habit 00:00:40.160 --> 00:00:41.960 into a deliberate set of choices. 00:00:42.690 --> 00:00:46.140 We also talk about everything from job interviews to big presentations. 00:00:46.440 --> 00:00:50.340 It's a wide ranging conversation about how to show up and communicate 00:00:50.340 --> 00:00:51.930 effectively when it counts. 00:00:52.260 --> 00:00:55.890 Before we get into it, make sure to follow Masters of Scale wherever 00:00:55.890 --> 00:00:57.210 you listen to your podcasts. 00:00:57.480 --> 00:00:59.760 And now enjoy our episode. 00:01:05.129 --> 00:01:08.535 You should start pitches and presentations like an action movie, 00:01:11.205 --> 00:01:13.215 there's something there right away. 00:01:14.085 --> 00:01:15.645 A lot of people have long preambles. 00:01:16.005 --> 00:01:19.365 You need to get yourself into the audience's perspective. 00:01:20.505 --> 00:01:22.005 This is a fundamental tenet. 00:01:23.895 --> 00:01:26.775 Jeff Berman: Matt Abrahams knows what it takes to win over a crowd, 00:01:26.775 --> 00:01:29.445 close a deal, and inspire a team. 00:01:29.970 --> 00:01:33.059 It's not enough to have a great product or terrific idea. 00:01:33.330 --> 00:01:36.300 You need to be a brilliant communicator as well. 00:01:37.890 --> 00:01:39.660 Matt Abrahams: Neuroscience has taught us emotion gets into our 00:01:39.660 --> 00:01:41.970 brains differently than information. 00:01:42.179 --> 00:01:44.399 Gets in faster, stays longer, motivates behavior. 00:01:44.399 --> 00:01:46.679 So do I want people excited or concerned? 00:01:47.020 --> 00:01:49.690 Do I want them to have FOMO, fear of missing out, or be 00:01:49.690 --> 00:01:51.910 validated, or just be confident? 00:01:52.210 --> 00:01:53.380 Think about that emotion. 00:01:54.789 --> 00:01:56.500 Jeff Berman: This is Masters of Scale. 00:01:56.950 --> 00:01:58.390 I'm Jeff Berman, your host. 00:01:58.390 --> 00:02:01.310 Today on the show communication expert, Matt Abrahams. 00:02:01.630 --> 00:02:05.259 He teaches at Stanford's Business School and has a brilliant podcast 00:02:05.259 --> 00:02:07.119 called Think Fast Talk Smart. 00:02:08.440 --> 00:02:12.280 Whether it's preparing for a big speech, a one-on-one investor pitch, or 00:02:12.280 --> 00:02:17.170 anything in between, Matt has science backed strategies to help you succeed. 00:02:17.650 --> 00:02:21.280 We talked about how to overcome anxiety about public speaking, how to nail a 00:02:21.280 --> 00:02:23.769 job interview, and much, much more. 00:02:27.990 --> 00:02:29.460 Matt, welcome to Masters of Scale. 00:02:29.670 --> 00:02:30.900 Matt Abrahams: I'm thrilled to be here, Jeff. 00:02:30.900 --> 00:02:31.290 Thank you. 00:02:31.320 --> 00:02:32.400 Jeff Berman: We're thrilled to have you. 00:02:32.580 --> 00:02:35.460 I just wanna start by asking you, how do you describe what you do? 00:02:36.270 --> 00:02:38.700 Matt Abrahams: So fundamentally, I'm somebody who's really passionate about 00:02:38.700 --> 00:02:42.530 communication, and really what I think I do is I help people to hone and 00:02:42.530 --> 00:02:44.180 develop their communication skills. 00:02:44.300 --> 00:02:48.560 And a lot of that is really just asking people to turn habits into choices. 00:02:48.980 --> 00:02:53.270 Most people communicate out of habit and my job, I think, is to expose them 00:02:53.270 --> 00:02:58.010 to different opportunities, tools, and techniques, and then ask them to consider 00:02:58.010 --> 00:03:01.640 in their situations they find themselves in to try a different technique out. 00:03:01.880 --> 00:03:05.030 Jeff Berman: What led you to choose to really specialize in this and, and to 00:03:05.030 --> 00:03:06.890 teach others how to be great at this? 00:03:07.710 --> 00:03:10.560 Matt Abrahams: The teaching bug, I think is just inside me inherently. 00:03:10.560 --> 00:03:11.640 I've always loved teaching. 00:03:11.640 --> 00:03:13.440 I've had lots of opportunities to teach. 00:03:13.680 --> 00:03:16.140 After graduate school, I worked in the corporate world for a while. 00:03:16.140 --> 00:03:20.040 I had to pay off some loans, and I just saw the impact that good 00:03:20.040 --> 00:03:23.070 communication could have on somebody's career and a company's trajectory. 00:03:23.395 --> 00:03:25.795 And how bad communication got in the way. 00:03:26.155 --> 00:03:29.395 And so when the opportunity presented itself to do some teaching in this, 00:03:29.395 --> 00:03:33.145 actually here at Stanford through their continuing studies program, I fell in 00:03:33.145 --> 00:03:36.415 love with it, and I saw the impact it had and I really enjoyed learning from 00:03:36.415 --> 00:03:38.965 my students and have never turned back. 00:03:39.700 --> 00:03:41.510 Jeff Berman: I started my career as a public defender. 00:03:41.530 --> 00:03:44.079 Um, not the obvious place to start for what I do now. 00:03:44.290 --> 00:03:44.500 Matt Abrahams: Yeah. 00:03:44.590 --> 00:03:48.220 Jeff Berman: And I'll never forget, we had one lawyer who, quite experienced, 00:03:48.220 --> 00:03:53.210 been doing this for decades, who told us that they went into the, the restroom and 00:03:53.210 --> 00:03:55.425 threw up every single day before court. 00:03:55.425 --> 00:03:55.665 Matt Abrahams: Right. 00:03:56.055 --> 00:03:58.665 Jeff Berman: And it really just struck me as like that you've got literally 00:03:58.665 --> 00:04:03.345 decades of experience and you're still showing up with that level of, of nerve. 00:04:03.915 --> 00:04:07.125 As, as you work with people on communication, particularly on public 00:04:07.125 --> 00:04:13.005 communication, how common is this, this, this like nervousness and what do you 00:04:13.035 --> 00:04:16.245 help people understand that they can do to be less nervous, to walk in with 00:04:16.245 --> 00:04:18.015 more confidence in, in these rooms? 00:04:18.404 --> 00:04:21.565 Matt Abrahams: So anxiety around communication looms large. 00:04:21.565 --> 00:04:25.555 We have some evidence that suggests up to 85% of people feel anxiety, and quite 00:04:25.555 --> 00:04:27.385 frankly, I think the other 15% are lying. 00:04:27.685 --> 00:04:31.825 Those of us who study it have found it in every culture we've studied, we find 00:04:31.825 --> 00:04:36.385 it develops around the same time, around when early kid, when kids become early 00:04:36.385 --> 00:04:39.775 teenagers, is when it really becomes more prominent and stays that way. 00:04:40.075 --> 00:04:42.210 So we believe it's part of the human condition. 00:04:42.595 --> 00:04:44.815 There's an evolutionary explanation for it. 00:04:44.815 --> 00:04:47.935 Your relative status in a group matters a lot. 00:04:48.415 --> 00:04:51.175 Not today, and I'm not talking who drives the fanciest car and 00:04:51.175 --> 00:04:52.875 has the most social media likes. 00:04:52.875 --> 00:04:57.025 But when we were a species hanging out in groups of 150 people 00:04:57.085 --> 00:05:01.225 during our early evolution, your relative status meant everything. 00:05:01.705 --> 00:05:06.355 And it meant access to resources like food, reproduction. 00:05:06.745 --> 00:05:10.195 And if you did anything that jeopardized that, it could have 00:05:10.195 --> 00:05:11.995 quite a, a significant impact. 00:05:11.995 --> 00:05:13.465 So it's wired into us. 00:05:13.465 --> 00:05:15.775 Now, that doesn't mean that we can't learn to manage it. 00:05:15.775 --> 00:05:20.305 I spend a lot of my time helping people learn to manage anxiety. 00:05:20.575 --> 00:05:23.845 And you can do it both by focusing on the symptoms and the sources, 00:05:24.175 --> 00:05:27.055 but it is ubiquitous and it is something we have to work at. 00:05:27.055 --> 00:05:29.245 But over time we can manage it. 00:05:29.245 --> 00:05:31.045 I don't think we can ever truly overcome it. 00:05:31.045 --> 00:05:35.365 As your example shows, having anxiety tells us that what we're 00:05:35.365 --> 00:05:38.545 doing is important, gives us energy, helps us focus, but we have to 00:05:38.545 --> 00:05:40.795 manage it so it doesn't manage us. 00:05:40.855 --> 00:05:45.235 Jeff Berman: Are there truths about managing anxiety that apply to 90 X 00:05:45.235 --> 00:05:49.495 percent of the population, or is it really specific to the individual? 00:05:49.675 --> 00:05:51.925 Matt Abrahams: Everybody is different in terms of what their triggers 00:05:51.925 --> 00:05:54.685 might be or where the sources are, but there are some things you can do 00:05:54.685 --> 00:05:56.155 that seem to work for most people. 00:05:56.155 --> 00:05:57.325 I'll give you a few examples. 00:05:57.655 --> 00:06:00.570 Deep belly breathing really can help. 00:06:00.780 --> 00:06:04.080 It slows down your autonomic nervous system. 00:06:04.469 --> 00:06:08.880 It slows down your breath rate, it lowers your, your breathing so 00:06:08.880 --> 00:06:10.560 that your voice sounds more normal. 00:06:10.859 --> 00:06:13.710 So breath work seems to be really important. 00:06:13.710 --> 00:06:15.719 And what's key is the exhalation. 00:06:15.729 --> 00:06:16.909 It's not the inhale. 00:06:17.190 --> 00:06:17.890 It's the exhale. 00:06:17.890 --> 00:06:21.719 So I like to joke, the rule of thumb or rule of lung, is you want your exhale 00:06:21.719 --> 00:06:23.460 to be twice as long as your inhale. 00:06:23.580 --> 00:06:26.969 And if you do a two, a few of those breaths, just two or three, you'll 00:06:26.969 --> 00:06:29.110 actually really feel different and better. 00:06:29.440 --> 00:06:31.880 The other thing that gets a lot of people is shakiness. 00:06:32.000 --> 00:06:32.960 That's adrenaline. 00:06:32.969 --> 00:06:36.190 Adrenaline's role is to move us from threat to safety. 00:06:36.460 --> 00:06:40.300 So if you move with purpose, you can give that adrenaline a place to go. 00:06:40.510 --> 00:06:42.940 So if you're standing up in front of a room, step towards the 00:06:42.940 --> 00:06:44.409 audience with a welcoming gesture. 00:06:44.409 --> 00:06:47.440 If you're sitting like this lean forward, gesture broadly, that 00:06:47.440 --> 00:06:49.060 gives the shakiness a place to go. 00:06:49.060 --> 00:06:53.590 And for most people, those two things alone can help many of the symptoms abate. 00:06:53.810 --> 00:06:56.330 A lot of people just get inside themselves. 00:06:56.330 --> 00:06:59.390 When they get nervous, they get very still, and then somehow 00:06:59.390 --> 00:07:02.540 magically they expect to be able to go from silence to brilliance. 00:07:02.810 --> 00:07:07.100 But if you watch athletes, actors, dancers, there's always movement. 00:07:07.100 --> 00:07:08.750 There's always warming up that goes on. 00:07:09.175 --> 00:07:11.995 My anxiety management plan, and I encourage all of my students and 00:07:11.995 --> 00:07:15.745 everybody that I coach to develop their own unique plan, I do three things. 00:07:15.745 --> 00:07:17.515 First, I take some deep belly breaths. 00:07:17.965 --> 00:07:21.955 Second, I do my best to interact with somebody, to have a conversation. 00:07:21.955 --> 00:07:22.945 It gets me focused. 00:07:23.125 --> 00:07:26.065 If it's somebody who's part of the audience, even better, because I realize 00:07:26.065 --> 00:07:30.595 these are normal human beings who, who want to learn something from me rather 00:07:30.595 --> 00:07:32.275 than judges who are there to evaluate. 00:07:32.395 --> 00:07:34.055 And then I say tongue twisters. 00:07:34.774 --> 00:07:38.490 Tongue twisters, I know it sounds silly, but what it does is it warms up my 00:07:38.490 --> 00:07:42.870 voice and you can't say a tongue twister right, and not be in the present moment. 00:07:43.080 --> 00:07:46.320 Nobody ever sees me do this, but it's a way that I warm up. 00:07:46.320 --> 00:07:49.650 In fact, before we started today, I excused myself and did a few 00:07:49.830 --> 00:07:51.100 tongue twisters to get myself ready. 00:07:51.100 --> 00:07:51.810 Jeff Berman: Do you have a favorite one? 00:07:51.870 --> 00:07:52.300 Matt Abrahams: I do. 00:07:52.340 --> 00:07:54.030 But I'll only share it with you if you do it with me. 00:07:54.090 --> 00:07:54.630 Jeff Berman: I'll do it with you. 00:07:54.630 --> 00:07:54.810 Sure. 00:07:54.810 --> 00:07:55.050 Matt Abrahams: Okay. 00:07:55.110 --> 00:07:57.210 Now, the reason I like this one is it's short, and if you say 00:07:57.210 --> 00:07:58.440 it wrong, you say a dirty word. 00:07:58.470 --> 00:07:58.770 Jeff Berman: Okay. 00:07:58.920 --> 00:07:59.340 Matt Abrahams: All right. 00:07:59.630 --> 00:08:00.590 I slid a sheet. 00:08:00.740 --> 00:08:01.460 Jeff Berman: I slid a sheet. 00:08:01.460 --> 00:08:02.240 Matt Abrahams: A sheet I slid. 00:08:02.240 --> 00:08:02.930 Jeff Berman: A sheet I slid. 00:08:02.930 --> 00:08:04.590 Matt Abrahams: And on that slitted sheet I sit. 00:08:04.590 --> 00:08:05.750 Jeff Berman: And on that slid sheet I sit. 00:08:05.750 --> 00:08:07.250 Matt Abrahams: See where the naughty word comes up? 00:08:07.250 --> 00:08:07.789 Jeff Berman: Right at the end. 00:08:07.789 --> 00:08:08.390 Matt Abrahams: Yeah, exactly. 00:08:08.390 --> 00:08:09.125 Jeff Berman: You wanna slip an H in there. 00:08:09.265 --> 00:08:10.280 Matt Abrahams: That's exactly right. 00:08:10.430 --> 00:08:12.530 And I'll do that three times and it gets me present, 00:08:12.859 --> 00:08:14.390 focused, and it, it warms me up. 00:08:14.570 --> 00:08:15.080 Jeff Berman: Amazing. 00:08:15.169 --> 00:08:16.760 Matt Abrahams: I like to say there are only three ways to get good 00:08:16.760 --> 00:08:19.430 at communication, repetition, reflection, and feedback 00:08:19.490 --> 00:08:20.240 Jeff Berman: And repetition. 00:08:20.300 --> 00:08:20.599 Matt Abrahams: Yeah. 00:08:20.659 --> 00:08:21.380 Yeah, exactly. 00:08:21.530 --> 00:08:23.030 You got, you gotta do it a couple times. 00:08:23.300 --> 00:08:25.909 So you gotta, nobody ever got good at speaking by thinking about it. 00:08:25.909 --> 00:08:26.405 You have to do it. 00:08:27.065 --> 00:08:30.094 That's where Toastmasters, taking classes, those things really help. 00:08:30.604 --> 00:08:31.505 You have to reflect. 00:08:31.835 --> 00:08:35.194 Most people are just so glad to be done with it they move on. 00:08:35.194 --> 00:08:37.414 You know, there's that definition of insanity doing the same 00:08:37.414 --> 00:08:38.314 thing over and over again. 00:08:38.914 --> 00:08:42.155 Every night before I go to bed, I spend one minute writing down one thing 00:08:42.155 --> 00:08:45.814 that went well in my communication and one thing that didn't each day. 00:08:45.875 --> 00:08:49.295 And on Sunday, I spend five minutes going back and reflecting and I make a 00:08:49.295 --> 00:08:52.215 plan to address the, an issue each week. 00:08:52.485 --> 00:08:53.834 I'm not saying I'm a great communicator. 00:08:53.834 --> 00:08:57.135 I am certainly a better communicator because I do that reflection. 00:08:57.465 --> 00:08:58.574 And then you have to get feedback. 00:08:58.574 --> 00:09:00.885 We are not the best judges of our communication. 00:09:01.095 --> 00:09:04.694 I make my MBA students digitally record themselves and they watch. 00:09:04.694 --> 00:09:05.805 It's painful. 00:09:05.834 --> 00:09:06.555 Jeff Berman: It's the worst. 00:09:06.645 --> 00:09:07.785 Matt Abrahams: But they learn so much. 00:09:07.785 --> 00:09:09.465 I tell everybody, it's like going to the dentist. 00:09:09.555 --> 00:09:11.625 We don't like going, but we're really glad we've been. 00:09:11.625 --> 00:09:14.155 And not only do they watch it and listen once. 00:09:14.155 --> 00:09:17.935 They then watch it without sound, and then they listen without video. 00:09:18.235 --> 00:09:20.805 So they're seeing the different channels and that actually highlights 00:09:20.805 --> 00:09:22.125 more of what they're working on. 00:09:22.545 --> 00:09:26.624 Jeff Berman: Given how central communication is to everything, right? 00:09:26.635 --> 00:09:31.725 To relationship building, to presentations to, why, why don't we spend more time 00:09:31.814 --> 00:09:33.975 teaching this, especially starting early? 00:09:33.975 --> 00:09:36.780 Like why isn't this more core to our curricula? 00:09:37.640 --> 00:09:40.605 Matt Abrahams: So, I'm heartened, at least here in the United States, 00:09:40.605 --> 00:09:42.345 that we're seeing a bit more of that. 00:09:42.345 --> 00:09:45.375 I look at what my kids went through and I have a young nephew 00:09:45.375 --> 00:09:46.665 and what he's going through. 00:09:46.965 --> 00:09:48.945 Much different than what you and I went through. 00:09:48.945 --> 00:09:50.265 And we're of the same vintage. 00:09:51.015 --> 00:09:54.585 So I think there is a recognition that communication is important. 00:09:54.585 --> 00:09:56.415 Coordination of activity is important. 00:09:57.035 --> 00:10:01.085 I think part of it is that we just do it naturally, and most people, by the age of 00:10:01.085 --> 00:10:04.835 one, are communicating in some way, and we just feel like it's just something we do. 00:10:05.315 --> 00:10:08.765 But when you think about the impact communication can have, it becomes 00:10:08.765 --> 00:10:11.825 very clear that it's something we should study and look at. 00:10:12.185 --> 00:10:17.109 You know, when I talk to people who've graduated from our MBA program, one of 00:10:17.109 --> 00:10:20.859 the things they will say is either they're so thankful they took communication 00:10:20.859 --> 00:10:24.400 training, 'cause they see how valuable it is in their work life, or they 00:10:24.400 --> 00:10:26.050 really wish they would've taken more. 00:10:26.410 --> 00:10:29.439 So it, it's one of these things where we take it for granted, but 00:10:29.439 --> 00:10:32.170 then when we get exposed to it, we really see the value that it brings. 00:10:32.199 --> 00:10:35.050 Jeff Berman: Yeah, and my Rabbi, Rabbi Sharon Brous, wrote a book a couple 00:10:35.050 --> 00:10:36.550 of years ago called The Amen Effect. 00:10:36.729 --> 00:10:41.140 It's a beautiful book, but there's a little anecdote in the book about going 00:10:41.140 --> 00:10:44.979 to the grocery store and going to the self-checkout and looking up and seeing 00:10:45.190 --> 00:10:49.870 the person working at a cash register and going over, switching, going over and 00:10:49.870 --> 00:10:51.680 having that moment of human interaction. 00:10:51.710 --> 00:10:54.850 And it completely changing her day as a consequence. 00:10:55.360 --> 00:10:58.840 As you're engaging with college students, what are you asking them to 00:10:58.840 --> 00:11:02.890 do, encouraging them to do in their daily lives where they can practice 00:11:02.890 --> 00:11:07.030 being better communicators and in the process, perhaps build more community, 00:11:07.030 --> 00:11:09.210 build more civility, more connection? 00:11:09.785 --> 00:11:10.565 Matt Abrahams: So a few things. 00:11:10.565 --> 00:11:14.555 One, I ask them just to observe others' communication and see 00:11:14.585 --> 00:11:16.355 what is it that people are doing. 00:11:16.655 --> 00:11:20.315 We, we can be so internal focused that we don't see that, you know, that 00:11:20.315 --> 00:11:24.815 person pauses before they speak and that gives a little extra space for the 00:11:24.815 --> 00:11:26.285 other person to complete their thought. 00:11:26.645 --> 00:11:30.305 Or like my mother-in-law would do, she was a black belt in small talk and she 00:11:30.305 --> 00:11:32.155 would, she would just say, tell me more. 00:11:32.485 --> 00:11:35.814 And just noticing the subtle little things that people do to encourage 00:11:35.814 --> 00:11:37.975 communication or shut down communication. 00:11:38.214 --> 00:11:39.685 So part of it is observation. 00:11:39.985 --> 00:11:43.344 The other part is really helping people listen better. 00:11:44.035 --> 00:11:47.425 Most of us are not good listeners, so really teaching listening 00:11:47.425 --> 00:11:50.305 skills, which force people to be more present and connective. 00:11:50.785 --> 00:11:52.225 And then paraphrasing skills. 00:11:52.225 --> 00:11:55.885 So it's not enough just to get your point across, but when you hear 00:11:55.885 --> 00:11:58.344 somebody else's point, demonstrate that you heard that point. 00:11:58.344 --> 00:12:02.805 So giving them tools and techniques and then encouraging them to practice and 00:12:02.805 --> 00:12:04.635 then come back and reflect and report out. 00:12:04.905 --> 00:12:08.745 And it's amazing where students will say, I learned so much more from 00:12:08.775 --> 00:12:12.645 this person I was getting to know because I listened and I paraphrased. 00:12:12.645 --> 00:12:15.855 And that gave the other person the confidence to say more. 00:12:16.155 --> 00:12:19.314 So it's helping them, scaffolding them, to a point where that 00:12:19.314 --> 00:12:22.405 they can feel more connected and comfortable doing those things. 00:12:24.685 --> 00:12:25.285 Jeff Berman: Still ahead. 00:12:25.344 --> 00:12:28.974 More with Matt Abrahams on how to craft the perfect pitch. 00:12:44.385 --> 00:12:46.155 Welcome back to Masters of Scale. 00:12:46.155 --> 00:12:50.175 You can find this conversation and much more on our YouTube channel, and be 00:12:50.175 --> 00:12:53.385 sure to check out the link in our show notes to subscribe to our newsletter. 00:12:55.425 --> 00:12:59.055 I wanted to run Matt through a set of scenarios you might be facing 00:12:59.115 --> 00:13:02.535 and see how we can get better at communicating in each one of them. 00:13:02.954 --> 00:13:06.015 We started with pitching a new startup concept. 00:13:08.090 --> 00:13:11.060 When someone's taking an idea out to market and raising money for the 00:13:11.060 --> 00:13:15.140 first time, or trying to persuade an advisor to come on, what are the 00:13:15.140 --> 00:13:20.480 mistakes that you most commonly see and where are the opportunities to get 00:13:20.480 --> 00:13:24.620 better that, that are just the lowest hanging fruit to coach people up on. 00:13:25.135 --> 00:13:27.925 Matt Abrahams: So you and I both know Guy Kawasaki, so the, the first mistake 00:13:27.925 --> 00:13:29.854 people make is they take too long, right? 00:13:29.885 --> 00:13:33.145 I love his jet fighter versus a big Boeing analogy. 00:13:33.145 --> 00:13:35.454 It takes a long time for a big plane to take off. 00:13:35.454 --> 00:13:36.505 You need to take off quickly. 00:13:36.505 --> 00:13:39.145 So a lot of people gotta get to the punch first. 00:13:39.444 --> 00:13:43.165 I like to tell people you should start pitches and presentations like an action 00:13:43.165 --> 00:13:44.944 movie, there's something there right away. 00:13:45.474 --> 00:13:47.005 A lot of people have long preambles. 00:13:47.810 --> 00:13:51.199 You need to get yourself into the audience's perspective. 00:13:51.199 --> 00:13:52.609 This is a fundamental tenet. 00:13:52.609 --> 00:13:55.880 I, I host a podcast, Think Fast Talk Smart, all about communication. 00:13:55.880 --> 00:13:59.060 The number one bit of advice across hundreds of guests is 00:13:59.060 --> 00:14:00.489 always know your audience. 00:14:00.869 --> 00:14:04.760 A lot of people craft a pitch, and that same pitch they give everywhere. 00:14:04.819 --> 00:14:06.229 You have to adjust and adapt. 00:14:06.500 --> 00:14:08.744 What's relevant and salient to the people you're talking to? 00:14:09.694 --> 00:14:14.555 You also need to focus on benefits and salience, not features and functions. 00:14:14.555 --> 00:14:17.855 That's, many people get so immersed in what's going on. 00:14:18.515 --> 00:14:22.235 My mother has a saying, I think everybody should live by, it applies to pitches, 00:14:22.385 --> 00:14:24.935 tell the time, don't build the clock. 00:14:25.295 --> 00:14:27.725 Many people say much more than they need to. 00:14:28.084 --> 00:14:30.175 Get to the punch more quickly. 00:14:30.775 --> 00:14:32.515 And then finally, show don't tell. 00:14:32.515 --> 00:14:33.655 Show what this means. 00:14:33.655 --> 00:14:36.055 Don't just tell us all the different features and functions. 00:14:36.325 --> 00:14:38.065 What, what does this look like? 00:14:38.065 --> 00:14:42.355 If you can demonstrate it, demonstrate it, but help us in our mind see what it is. 00:14:42.655 --> 00:14:46.135 If you can do those things, you'll engage people more. 00:14:46.315 --> 00:14:48.805 And then there's one thing that I, I'd love to get your opinion on. 00:14:49.105 --> 00:14:53.455 When I see pitches, a lot of people put their bios and their experience upfront. 00:14:54.445 --> 00:14:55.465 I'm not a big fan of that. 00:14:56.245 --> 00:14:59.880 I, I, I want people to tell me what the idea is, what the value 00:14:59.880 --> 00:15:02.939 is, and then let me know who you are versus who are you upfront. 00:15:03.689 --> 00:15:05.670 I don't know if you have a, an opinion on that. 00:15:05.670 --> 00:15:09.270 Everybody I talk to thinks the, the bio company slide needs 00:15:09.270 --> 00:15:10.680 to go in a different place. 00:15:10.709 --> 00:15:14.910 Jeff Berman: Well, there's a fundamental tension for me in a lot of these 00:15:14.910 --> 00:15:19.395 conversations that, that are pitch conversations, ultimately, because, 00:15:19.415 --> 00:15:23.585 yes, jet fighter get to it, be adept. 00:15:23.675 --> 00:15:27.545 I, by the way, as a way to get a meeting, I often say, look, can we 00:15:27.545 --> 00:15:29.405 please set 30 minutes or an hour? 00:15:29.495 --> 00:15:32.975 But if in 5 or 10 minutes you don't think this is gonna be valuable for 00:15:32.975 --> 00:15:36.785 you, kick me out and I'll, I will with a smile, shake your hand and give 00:15:36.785 --> 00:15:38.744 you 45, 50 minutes back in your day. 00:15:38.835 --> 00:15:42.055 Because if in 5 minutes we're not, we're not in it, it's probably not 00:15:42.055 --> 00:15:43.445 gonna happen anyway, most likely. 00:15:43.564 --> 00:15:48.064 But the, the tension for me, and, and I learned this, my first job in the private 00:15:48.064 --> 00:15:50.124 sector was at MySpace of all places. 00:15:50.594 --> 00:15:55.055 And ultimately I was overseeing the sales function and I hired an 00:15:55.055 --> 00:15:58.175 absolutely incredible sales leader, a guy named Andy Wheatland, who 00:15:58.175 --> 00:15:59.675 I went out on a sales call with. 00:16:00.190 --> 00:16:04.990 And we sat down and he didn't pull up a deck and he didn't start by 00:16:05.020 --> 00:16:06.850 saying what we're here to talk about. 00:16:07.240 --> 00:16:09.640 He started by asking them how they were doing and what 00:16:09.640 --> 00:16:10.750 was keeping them up at night. 00:16:11.790 --> 00:16:17.710 And got them talking about their problems and 5, 6, 7 minutes in, he's 00:16:17.710 --> 00:16:21.710 completely adjusted the conversation to speak to what their needs are. 00:16:22.079 --> 00:16:26.200 And so that tension is often you walk in the room and you don't know your 00:16:26.200 --> 00:16:29.740 audience as well as you should, so how do you get them in conversation 00:16:29.740 --> 00:16:33.580 so you can learn what you're actually want, want to be speaking to? 00:16:35.020 --> 00:16:38.580 Matt Abrahams: I think you ask questions, you do your homework, you do your cyber 00:16:38.580 --> 00:16:42.180 stalking, you're checking out their LinkedIn profiles, you're, you're looking 00:16:42.180 --> 00:16:47.550 at their blog posts and, and Substacks, but you, you come in inquisitive. 00:16:47.550 --> 00:16:51.120 I think curiosity is the best place to come in in most communications, 00:16:51.120 --> 00:16:52.680 especially in pitching situations. 00:16:53.040 --> 00:16:54.450 You reflect what you're hearing. 00:16:54.720 --> 00:16:58.410 That's where paraphrasing comes in, and you're watching for nonverbals, 00:16:58.560 --> 00:17:00.660 and you're trying to see how are they responding and reacting. 00:17:00.660 --> 00:17:03.210 Nonverbals are not always the most accurate, but, but paying 00:17:03.210 --> 00:17:04.619 attention can be very helpful. 00:17:05.190 --> 00:17:08.280 And then start down a path and test and check and see if, 00:17:08.280 --> 00:17:09.660 if this is a value to them. 00:17:10.200 --> 00:17:14.190 One of the things you said that I really wanna emphasize is setting expectations 00:17:14.190 --> 00:17:14.970 at the beginning of the meeting. 00:17:14.970 --> 00:17:16.710 When you said, hey, if we're not connecting in 10 minutes. 00:17:17.435 --> 00:17:20.615 Most people don't do a good job of expectation setting leading 00:17:20.615 --> 00:17:21.875 up to meetings and events. 00:17:22.205 --> 00:17:22.985 I'll give you an example. 00:17:22.985 --> 00:17:26.435 I think the single best expectation setting tool for communication that 00:17:26.435 --> 00:17:29.195 we seldom use is the calendar invite. 00:17:29.315 --> 00:17:32.855 We all send invites out with URLs, you can do so much in a calendar 00:17:32.855 --> 00:17:34.265 invite to set expectations. 00:17:34.415 --> 00:17:37.205 I challenge you the next time you schedule a meeting, don't put 00:17:37.205 --> 00:17:38.615 the word meeting in the title. 00:17:38.765 --> 00:17:41.525 It forces you to make it something that's more active and engaging. 00:17:42.020 --> 00:17:46.879 Put your expectations, your goals, maybe even your, your behaviors that you want 00:17:46.879 --> 00:17:50.240 people to have or the tools you intend to use in the meeting, in the invite. 00:17:50.510 --> 00:17:52.070 So people come in, ready to go. 00:17:52.370 --> 00:17:55.610 I put in every invite I have for every meeting I run either a question that 00:17:55.610 --> 00:17:59.419 we're gonna start with discussing or a challenge that I want us to address. 00:17:59.899 --> 00:18:02.899 Most people start meetings by reviewing the previous meeting, 00:18:02.899 --> 00:18:04.070 which I think is ludicrous. 00:18:04.219 --> 00:18:06.350 Most people don't like going to meetings, so I'm gonna start this 00:18:06.350 --> 00:18:09.439 meeting by reminding you about the previous meeting you didn't wanna be in. 00:18:09.679 --> 00:18:12.320 Let's do something active to get engaged, and then if we have to 00:18:12.320 --> 00:18:13.580 talk about the previous meeting. 00:18:13.939 --> 00:18:16.189 So expectation setting is critical. 00:18:16.699 --> 00:18:19.370 In the moment determining who your audience is and what you can do 00:18:19.370 --> 00:18:23.270 to help them is critical, but it involves listening and being silent. 00:18:23.270 --> 00:18:25.310 And many of us, because we're excited, we're nervous. 00:18:25.790 --> 00:18:26.929 That's hard for us to do. 00:18:27.020 --> 00:18:29.480 Jeff Berman: To your point, most of us hate meetings. 00:18:29.570 --> 00:18:31.159 They're, they're a time suck. 00:18:31.159 --> 00:18:33.409 It feels like I only need to be here for 5 or 10 minutes, but we 00:18:33.409 --> 00:18:34.850 set it for half an hour, an hour. 00:18:35.659 --> 00:18:41.625 What, especially focusing on an internal meeting, what makes for a great meeting? 00:18:42.225 --> 00:18:45.465 Matt Abrahams: I think a good meeting is where people feel that value has been 00:18:45.465 --> 00:18:49.155 provided to them and that they've had an opportunity to contribute and be heard. 00:18:49.695 --> 00:18:53.054 And that boils down to a lot of the pre-work that has to be done. 00:18:53.054 --> 00:18:54.375 Do you actually need the meeting? 00:18:54.764 --> 00:18:57.195 Meetings are often band-aids for bigger problems. 00:18:57.225 --> 00:19:00.554 Uh, when I come in and do some of my consulting work, one of the first things 00:19:00.554 --> 00:19:04.684 I'll do is a communication audit and I look for the number of meetings that 00:19:04.894 --> 00:19:08.390 people have and who, how many people and who are those people in those meetings? 00:19:08.720 --> 00:19:12.800 And it's often a canary in the coal mine for, for a bigger, more challenging issue. 00:19:13.070 --> 00:19:15.560 So crafting purposeful meetings that have a clear goal. 00:19:15.560 --> 00:19:17.270 If there's not a need for meeting, don't do it. 00:19:17.660 --> 00:19:20.120 Meetings don't have to be 30 minutes and 60 minutes. 00:19:20.120 --> 00:19:23.690 They can be 17 minutes, take meetings outside, walk. 00:19:23.695 --> 00:19:25.820 Uh, there are lots of evidence that there are ways to be 00:19:25.820 --> 00:19:27.200 more productive in meetings. 00:19:27.800 --> 00:19:31.580 So really being value driven, having expectations. 00:19:32.085 --> 00:19:35.475 Maybe even seeding some ideas with people to contribute. 00:19:35.475 --> 00:19:38.295 So I, if I have a big meeting coming up, I might come to you and I say, I know 00:19:38.295 --> 00:19:39.435 you're really passionate about this. 00:19:39.615 --> 00:19:42.495 I'd love to make sure you bring up the points you're concerned with. 00:19:42.855 --> 00:19:44.565 Giving people permission to contribute. 00:19:44.565 --> 00:19:48.195 So there's a lot of work that goes into a meeting before it happens. 00:19:48.195 --> 00:19:52.034 I actually think facilitation, meeting, leading meetings, moderating 00:19:52.034 --> 00:19:55.305 panels, anytime you're facilitating others, communicating what you're 00:19:55.305 --> 00:19:58.095 doing right now, I think it's the hardest communication skill. 00:19:58.095 --> 00:20:00.465 'Cause you have to manage so much simultaneously. 00:20:01.050 --> 00:20:01.919 Jeff Berman: Why is it so hard? 00:20:02.550 --> 00:20:04.310 Matt Abrahams: Well, in this case, it's just you and me. 00:20:04.310 --> 00:20:06.540 But imagine a meeting where there are multiple opinions. 00:20:06.540 --> 00:20:08.100 I've got time, I've got goals. 00:20:08.100 --> 00:20:10.230 I've gotta make sure that this connects to something else. 00:20:10.230 --> 00:20:15.030 There's a lot going on that I have to navigate through and make 00:20:15.030 --> 00:20:18.540 people feel psychologically safe, make sure people are contributing. 00:20:18.540 --> 00:20:20.250 I should be paraphrasing and connecting. 00:20:20.460 --> 00:20:23.820 There's just a lot going on at the same time, and that's why many 00:20:23.820 --> 00:20:25.139 people find it very difficult. 00:20:25.840 --> 00:20:29.700 So a good meeting is a meeting that's well thought through, and that 00:20:29.700 --> 00:20:33.480 people feel like they have presence and are getting value from it. 00:20:33.810 --> 00:20:36.840 Some of the biggest mistakes people make is they don't plan, they don't 00:20:36.840 --> 00:20:41.340 listen, they don't connect the dots of what they're trying to accomplish 00:20:41.340 --> 00:20:43.629 to what has been accomplished, what needs to be accomplished. 00:20:44.190 --> 00:20:47.430 And they, they schedule too many meetings or spend too much time in the meetings. 00:20:47.430 --> 00:20:51.930 So it really, if you are mindful of the experience and plan it, you can actually 00:20:51.930 --> 00:20:53.610 have people excited to come to meetings. 00:20:53.640 --> 00:20:53.880 Jeff Berman: Yeah. 00:20:54.150 --> 00:20:57.870 You said earlier that repetition is one of the, the core elements 00:20:57.870 --> 00:21:02.370 of effective communication, and I think for so many leaders, they 00:21:02.370 --> 00:21:05.190 get tired of hearing themselves say the same thing over and over again. 00:21:05.659 --> 00:21:09.080 And I'll never forget Jeff Weiner said, until I start hearing my team say it back 00:21:09.080 --> 00:21:10.909 to me, I know I haven't said it enough. 00:21:11.300 --> 00:21:13.730 But there is that tension of like, I, I know you all have heard me 00:21:13.730 --> 00:21:17.000 say this 37 times, I kind of feel like I should acknowledge that, 00:21:17.000 --> 00:21:18.310 but I don't wanna acknowledge that. 00:21:18.830 --> 00:21:21.139 How do you help leaders get better at, at this piece of it? 00:21:21.889 --> 00:21:23.149 Matt Abrahams: So part of it is calling it out. 00:21:23.149 --> 00:21:25.860 Part of your job as a leader is to repeat. 00:21:26.100 --> 00:21:28.065 And the goal is to get alignment. 00:21:28.274 --> 00:21:31.935 So repetition is in service of something and reminding yourself of that. 00:21:32.325 --> 00:21:34.754 That said, there are lots of ways to repeat things 00:21:35.205 --> 00:21:36.435 without saying the same thing. 00:21:36.465 --> 00:21:39.615 You can give examples, you can use analogies, you can tell stories. 00:21:39.915 --> 00:21:43.450 So find different vehicles to communicate the same message. 00:21:43.525 --> 00:21:46.480 Jeff Berman: I, I want to set up another scenario where communication can be 00:21:46.480 --> 00:21:48.670 complicated and ask for both sides of it. 00:21:48.670 --> 00:21:49.540 It's a job interview. 00:21:49.570 --> 00:21:50.080 Matt Abrahams: Yes. 00:21:50.080 --> 00:21:52.960 Jeff Berman: From both the candidate and from the hiring side, again, what 00:21:52.960 --> 00:21:55.990 are the, the most common mistakes and, and what do you, what are 00:21:55.990 --> 00:21:57.490 the most coachable opportunities? 00:21:58.030 --> 00:22:01.180 Matt Abrahams: Let me start with just the methodology I recommend people follow. 00:22:01.185 --> 00:22:04.420 When you go into a job interview prior to getting there, obviously 00:22:04.420 --> 00:22:09.430 you should do your work and research on the organization and the role. 00:22:10.514 --> 00:22:13.185 Come up with themes that you wanna make sure you get across. 00:22:13.185 --> 00:22:16.725 Maybe one of my themes is that I have deep expertise in this. 00:22:17.294 --> 00:22:21.254 With each theme you come up with, come up with support of that theme. 00:22:21.254 --> 00:22:22.905 A support might be a story you tell. 00:22:23.115 --> 00:22:24.284 Maybe it's a testimonial. 00:22:24.284 --> 00:22:26.355 You won an award, or your boss said something. 00:22:26.564 --> 00:22:27.435 Maybe it's some data. 00:22:27.435 --> 00:22:29.865 You saved X amount of money over this amount of time. 00:22:30.284 --> 00:22:33.105 So you have different types of support for your themes. 00:22:33.405 --> 00:22:36.675 So when I'm in the interview and you ask me a question, I think to 00:22:36.675 --> 00:22:40.215 myself, that's a great opportunity for me to pull in this theme. 00:22:40.275 --> 00:22:44.385 And because I have the support already there, I'm just assembling my answer. 00:22:44.655 --> 00:22:48.585 You know, if you go to a fancy restaurant, they don't make every meal from scratch. 00:22:48.585 --> 00:22:50.865 They have things prepared and they assemble it quickly. 00:22:51.105 --> 00:22:53.925 If you can do that, that means you are more present and connected 00:22:53.925 --> 00:22:56.535 in the interview, 'cause I don't have to sit there and figure 00:22:56.535 --> 00:22:57.945 out everything from scratch. 00:22:58.514 --> 00:23:00.935 I'm a huge fan of structure, structures and frameworks. 00:23:01.615 --> 00:23:03.935 They are great ways to structure answers. 00:23:03.935 --> 00:23:09.215 One of my favorite is what I call ADD for adding value. 00:23:09.815 --> 00:23:12.935 Answer the question, give a detailed example, describe the relevance. 00:23:12.935 --> 00:23:14.705 So if you ask me a question, I'll answer it. 00:23:14.705 --> 00:23:16.865 I'll give you an example and I'll describe the relevance. 00:23:17.405 --> 00:23:22.325 In so doing, I have just made it easier for you, the interviewer, to 00:23:22.415 --> 00:23:24.455 see the value I can bring to see that. 00:23:24.455 --> 00:23:28.445 I can think quickly on my feet, and I give you an example that's concrete. 00:23:29.375 --> 00:23:33.225 For giggles, imagine you're interviewing me to be a teacher 00:23:33.225 --> 00:23:35.774 of strategic communication at Stanford's Business School, so you're 00:23:35.774 --> 00:23:37.195 interviewing me for the job I have. 00:23:37.504 --> 00:23:39.795 Because at least that way I might have some qualifications. 00:23:40.045 --> 00:23:41.774 What might be a reasonable question you ask? 00:23:42.105 --> 00:23:43.185 Jeff Berman: Why should we not hire you? 00:23:43.575 --> 00:23:44.445 Matt Abrahams: Why should we not hire you? 00:23:44.445 --> 00:23:45.135 Jeff Berman: Why should we not hire you? 00:23:47.295 --> 00:23:52.695 Matt Abrahams: One of the things that I have a tendency to do is to 00:23:52.845 --> 00:24:00.030 over index on applied information and some of our students would benefit 00:24:00.030 --> 00:24:03.090 from more theoretical approaches. 00:24:04.110 --> 00:24:08.340 For example, when I teach crisis management, I'm teaching very 00:24:08.340 --> 00:24:13.740 specific messaging techniques, not the theories as much. 00:24:14.310 --> 00:24:19.560 So if you are looking for somebody who is theoretically oriented, I'm 00:24:19.560 --> 00:24:22.650 not that candidate, but if you want your students leaving knowing how to 00:24:22.650 --> 00:24:26.040 communicate and having practiced it, then I'm the person you should hire. 00:24:26.760 --> 00:24:29.830 Answer, detailed example, describe the relevance. 00:24:30.830 --> 00:24:34.140 So I didn't know the question you were gonna ask, but I knew exactly 00:24:34.140 --> 00:24:37.530 how I was gonna answer it, and that makes life easier for me. 00:24:37.650 --> 00:24:40.170 Jeff Berman: What's the question I should have asked you in that mock job interview? 00:24:40.890 --> 00:24:41.700 Matt Abrahams: That's the question. 00:24:42.165 --> 00:24:43.275 Jeff Berman: That's, that's it. 00:24:43.275 --> 00:24:43.335 Matt Abrahams: Yeah. 00:24:43.515 --> 00:24:46.455 So I, I always recommend that somebody have a question. 00:24:46.515 --> 00:24:48.285 'Cause they always say, do you have any questions for me? 00:24:48.285 --> 00:24:50.355 And a lot of people say, no, no, I, and there's no way, 00:24:50.355 --> 00:24:51.270 you have lots of questions. 00:24:51.270 --> 00:24:53.565 So I will always ask that, what's the question I should have asked? 00:24:53.565 --> 00:24:56.655 Or I say, what do you wish you would've known when you were interviewing? 00:24:57.165 --> 00:24:58.695 Or, what's the question you would've asked? 00:24:59.085 --> 00:25:03.405 And in my own life, when I've done that, I have received such great insight. 00:25:04.105 --> 00:25:08.125 And when I've been on the receiving end of that, as a hiring manager, it showed 00:25:08.125 --> 00:25:11.544 me that this is somebody who really wants to understand the inner workings and 00:25:11.544 --> 00:25:13.885 the details, which made a mark on me. 00:25:14.730 --> 00:25:18.270 As an interviewer, my job is to figure out, not just if you're the best 00:25:18.270 --> 00:25:19.770 candidate, but are you a good fit. 00:25:20.280 --> 00:25:24.270 So I am giving you space to share information with me, and I'm asking 00:25:24.270 --> 00:25:28.470 follow-up questions because that lets me really see your depth of thought. 00:25:29.280 --> 00:25:33.510 And uh, uh, the last bonus or, or bit of advice I'll give is leverage AI. 00:25:33.540 --> 00:25:36.990 LLMs can be really helpful, not to help you create answers. 00:25:36.990 --> 00:25:38.100 That's not what I'm looking for. 00:25:38.250 --> 00:25:42.930 But to help you get questions to practice, all athletes do a lot of drills. 00:25:43.455 --> 00:25:45.764 All musicians do a lot of scales. 00:25:46.425 --> 00:25:47.415 We can do the same thing. 00:25:47.415 --> 00:25:49.995 Go to your favorite LLM, say, I am interviewing for 00:25:49.995 --> 00:25:51.615 this role in this company. 00:25:51.675 --> 00:25:54.524 Generate five questions for me as those questions come 00:25:54.524 --> 00:25:55.875 up, practice answering them. 00:25:56.175 --> 00:25:57.405 That's how you get better at it. 00:25:57.705 --> 00:26:01.480 Jeff Berman: We've been focused more on small group communication. 00:26:01.540 --> 00:26:04.180 I want to go back to bigger stages. 00:26:04.220 --> 00:26:08.320 Um, you're standing in front of a room of hundreds or even thousands of people. 00:26:08.679 --> 00:26:12.370 If it is the National Association of Realtors, you probably have a pretty 00:26:12.370 --> 00:26:15.070 good idea of your audience and you can, you can speak to your audience, 00:26:15.070 --> 00:26:18.979 but often leaders are speaking before much more diverse groups of folks. 00:26:19.160 --> 00:26:22.300 What do people not get right in those rooms and, and what's coachable there? 00:26:23.485 --> 00:26:24.595 Matt Abrahams: There are several things I could say. 00:26:24.595 --> 00:26:26.815 First and foremost, have a clear goal. 00:26:27.145 --> 00:26:28.495 Understand what you're trying to do. 00:26:28.495 --> 00:26:31.855 To me, a goal has three parts, information, emotion, and action. 00:26:32.185 --> 00:26:35.455 What information do you wanna get across and based on what you know about your 00:26:35.455 --> 00:26:37.135 audience, what's the best way to do that? 00:26:38.090 --> 00:26:39.020 What's the feeling? 00:26:39.080 --> 00:26:40.970 A lot of us don't think about feeling. 00:26:40.970 --> 00:26:42.740 We, we just wanna get through the information. 00:26:42.740 --> 00:26:45.980 But we've known for millennia, thousands of years that emotion matters. 00:26:46.189 --> 00:26:48.320 Neuroscience has taught us emotion gets into our brains 00:26:48.350 --> 00:26:50.270 differently than information. 00:26:50.480 --> 00:26:52.730 Gets in faster, stays longer, motivates behavior. 00:26:52.730 --> 00:26:54.830 So do I want people excited or concerned? 00:26:55.345 --> 00:26:58.765 Do I want them to have FOMO, fear of missing out, or be validated 00:26:58.765 --> 00:27:00.385 or, or just be confident. 00:27:00.655 --> 00:27:03.415 Think about that emotion and then is there an action? 00:27:03.475 --> 00:27:05.875 Most communication, especially for leaders up in front of 00:27:05.875 --> 00:27:07.375 big groups, there's an action. 00:27:07.555 --> 00:27:08.275 What is it? 00:27:08.275 --> 00:27:10.225 Is it clear and is it measurable? 00:27:10.465 --> 00:27:14.095 You know, I coach a lot of entrepreneurs and during their pitches they'll say 00:27:14.095 --> 00:27:15.835 things like, I want your support. 00:27:16.889 --> 00:27:17.760 What does that mean? 00:27:17.820 --> 00:27:18.629 Do you want to check? 00:27:18.629 --> 00:27:20.879 Do you want a social media like, be specific. 00:27:20.879 --> 00:27:23.669 So having a clear goal helps you focus. 00:27:23.669 --> 00:27:26.280 That's the number one place I think people make a mistake. 00:27:26.280 --> 00:27:31.169 They aren't clear, or the person who wrote their presentation was clear, 00:27:31.169 --> 00:27:34.500 but they weren't clear because a lot of leaders don't write their own content. 00:27:34.500 --> 00:27:35.630 And that, that can be a problem. 00:27:35.630 --> 00:27:39.210 You need to, if you're not writing your own content, you need to be very closely 00:27:39.210 --> 00:27:42.419 aligned with the people who are, and they need to understand your process. 00:27:42.899 --> 00:27:45.210 The other thing that people do is they don't practice. 00:27:45.760 --> 00:27:47.200 Think about a standup comedian. 00:27:47.200 --> 00:27:50.080 How many times does a standup comedian work on their routine? 00:27:50.379 --> 00:27:53.710 I coach some of the most senior leaders here in this valley, 00:27:54.100 --> 00:27:55.450 and they'll say, I got it. 00:27:55.570 --> 00:27:56.440 I say, oh, how much you practice? 00:27:56.470 --> 00:27:58.060 I, I read the slides last night. 00:27:58.735 --> 00:28:00.760 You know, you, you need to live it. 00:28:00.790 --> 00:28:01.780 You need to speak it out. 00:28:01.780 --> 00:28:04.420 I don't know about you, but in my mind, I'm amazingly eloquent. 00:28:04.420 --> 00:28:06.370 When I open up my mouth, I'm not always as lucky. 00:28:06.370 --> 00:28:10.480 So getting that practice in and practice in the environment, where 00:28:10.480 --> 00:28:13.660 you move around the stage, you feel the lights, you hear the sound of 00:28:13.660 --> 00:28:15.610 your voice through the speakers. 00:28:16.150 --> 00:28:20.980 Jeff Berman: One of the paradoxes of the modern moment is it has never been 00:28:20.980 --> 00:28:23.980 easier to reach people because there are more platforms and there are open 00:28:23.980 --> 00:28:27.639 platforms, but it's never been more difficult to build real audience because 00:28:27.639 --> 00:28:31.750 it's so crowded, and AI's only making that more, more complicated by the day. 00:28:32.360 --> 00:28:36.899 Whatever you may think of his politics, it has been said of Zohran Mamdani 00:28:37.250 --> 00:28:42.830 that he's just as good in a 32nd social media hit as he is in a 3 minute cable 00:28:42.830 --> 00:28:47.510 news appearance as he is in a 30 minute speech as he's in a 3 hour podcast. 00:28:47.810 --> 00:28:50.929 He's kind of mastered each of those, those media. 00:28:51.379 --> 00:28:56.360 When you're working with leaders who now have to appear in these many 00:28:56.450 --> 00:29:00.735 different formats on these wildly different platforms, how do you 00:29:00.735 --> 00:29:02.535 help them get good across the board? 00:29:03.794 --> 00:29:06.735 Matt Abrahams: I think you take a step back and you really think about what do 00:29:06.735 --> 00:29:08.655 you stand for, what's important for you? 00:29:08.655 --> 00:29:11.145 What are your key values? 00:29:11.175 --> 00:29:12.524 And you start from there. 00:29:12.794 --> 00:29:15.254 And, you know, so essentially what I'm saying is you have to be authentic 00:29:15.254 --> 00:29:16.425 and you have to be true to yourself. 00:29:17.115 --> 00:29:21.135 You then have to think about how the message plays best on the 00:29:21.135 --> 00:29:22.575 different channels and platforms. 00:29:23.085 --> 00:29:27.495 And you might have a, a really good stump speech or a really good position 00:29:27.495 --> 00:29:30.045 statement or pitch at 5 minutes. 00:29:30.285 --> 00:29:34.485 How can I, it's not just about truncating it to fit the 32nd TikTok. 00:29:34.905 --> 00:29:39.560 It's what's the core essence of that, or a piece of that core essence, and 00:29:39.560 --> 00:29:41.300 how can I say that in the best way? 00:29:41.300 --> 00:29:44.630 So helping people understand that it's not just message, but channel, 00:29:44.810 --> 00:29:46.340 all coming from an authentic place. 00:29:46.400 --> 00:29:47.990 And then it boils down to practice. 00:29:48.320 --> 00:29:50.240 You have to practice for the different modalities. 00:29:50.480 --> 00:29:53.120 People think I can, you know, if I can do a 30 minute 00:29:53.330 --> 00:29:54.950 presentation, I can do it in 5. 00:29:55.515 --> 00:29:56.295 Not at all. 00:29:56.295 --> 00:29:57.255 It's very different. 00:29:57.255 --> 00:30:00.945 And so you have to get that experience and you have to practice it. 00:30:01.275 --> 00:30:01.875 And you're right. 00:30:01.875 --> 00:30:03.465 If you don't, people question. 00:30:03.525 --> 00:30:04.845 It feels disingenuous. 00:30:05.265 --> 00:30:07.905 And I think younger people have an advantage over those of us who 00:30:07.905 --> 00:30:12.165 are older in that they're used to managing personas in different 00:30:12.165 --> 00:30:14.655 modalities, much more so than I am. 00:30:14.685 --> 00:30:18.255 I, you know, I barely can do it in front of somebody, let alone on technology. 00:30:18.645 --> 00:30:22.865 Jeff Berman: So, what are you saying to, to leaders who, who do need to be 00:30:22.865 --> 00:30:26.260 on platforms where it is just wildly uncomfortable for them to get there? 00:30:27.840 --> 00:30:30.660 Matt Abrahams: Whenever I ask anybody to do something they're uncomfortable with, I 00:30:30.660 --> 00:30:33.570 ask them to think about another time they did something they were uncomfortable, 00:30:33.930 --> 00:30:35.730 and what, what helped them do that? 00:30:35.940 --> 00:30:40.710 And it could be everything from the first road race somebody ran to, you 00:30:40.710 --> 00:30:44.310 know, the first time they had to let somebody go during a reduction in force. 00:30:44.370 --> 00:30:46.560 Helping people understand that one, you can do it. 00:30:47.240 --> 00:30:50.390 And then helping scaffold the different pieces, you know, so if 00:30:50.390 --> 00:30:54.230 I'm trying and I'm, I am learning how to be on TikTok myself, which 00:30:54.290 --> 00:30:56.510 is wildly disturbing to my kids. 00:30:56.510 --> 00:30:57.620 They do not want me there. 00:30:58.010 --> 00:31:02.750 But the point is that you need to understand what, what's expected on 00:31:02.750 --> 00:31:06.385 that channel, what works, and then figure out how you can connect to it. 00:31:06.865 --> 00:31:11.545 You, you have your own freedom in, in on-ramps to these different channels 00:31:11.545 --> 00:31:15.115 and helping, I help people try to figure out where's the best place to start? 00:31:15.115 --> 00:31:18.985 Is it that you're really good at being funny or you're really 00:31:18.985 --> 00:31:20.275 good at asking questions? 00:31:20.455 --> 00:31:23.845 So let's lean into that when you move to a different platform or a different way. 00:31:23.845 --> 00:31:26.965 So let's find a strength that will play well in that platform. 00:31:26.965 --> 00:31:28.315 But first you have to be encouraged. 00:31:28.435 --> 00:31:34.815 Jeff Berman: Matt, you, you referenced, um, uh, where was I going? 00:31:35.295 --> 00:31:37.035 I just fully lost my train of thought. 00:31:38.504 --> 00:31:39.104 Matt Abrahams: It's quite all right. 00:31:39.165 --> 00:31:39.764 Jeff Berman: Forgive me. 00:31:39.945 --> 00:31:40.395 Matt Abrahams: No worries. 00:31:40.695 --> 00:31:41.205 Jeff Berman: Surreal. 00:31:41.774 --> 00:31:42.915 Let me go in a different direction. 00:31:43.475 --> 00:31:44.625 Matt Abrahams: We can talk about blanking out. 00:31:44.895 --> 00:31:47.034 Jeff Berman: Let's talk about blanking out 'cause I just blanked out. 00:31:47.064 --> 00:31:49.574 I just, I had exactly where I wanted to go with my next question. 00:31:49.574 --> 00:31:49.995 I lost it. 00:31:49.995 --> 00:31:51.044 What do we do in those moments? 00:31:51.604 --> 00:31:54.344 Matt Abrahams: When you blank out, a great thing to do is to do what you do 00:31:54.344 --> 00:31:55.995 when you lose your phone or your keys. 00:31:56.324 --> 00:31:57.604 Go back to go forward. 00:31:57.734 --> 00:31:58.494 Repeat yourself. 00:31:58.734 --> 00:32:01.574 Say what you just said before, most of us can remember that, and that 00:32:01.574 --> 00:32:03.284 often gives us enough to get on track. 00:32:03.794 --> 00:32:09.675 If not find a way in conversation to distract your audience, so I 00:32:09.675 --> 00:32:12.254 teach the same class very often. 00:32:12.254 --> 00:32:13.784 I can't remember, did I say this in this class? 00:32:13.784 --> 00:32:14.955 Did I say that yesterday? 00:32:15.554 --> 00:32:17.475 So I'll, I'll lose my train of thought. 00:32:17.475 --> 00:32:20.564 So what I'll do is I'll just pause and if you ever hear me say this, it means 00:32:20.564 --> 00:32:21.675 I've forgotten what I need to say. 00:32:21.675 --> 00:32:24.554 I will say, let's pause and think about how what we've just 00:32:24.554 --> 00:32:26.215 discussed impacts your life. 00:32:26.645 --> 00:32:28.615 And what my students do is they think about that. 00:32:28.855 --> 00:32:30.745 And that gives me that fraction of a second. 00:32:31.135 --> 00:32:33.205 So, can you leverage a question? 00:32:33.205 --> 00:32:37.585 Can you get somebody responding or doing something to buy that time for yourself? 00:32:37.825 --> 00:32:39.295 I call it a back pocket question. 00:32:39.295 --> 00:32:40.795 You should have something you can pull out. 00:32:41.065 --> 00:32:43.165 So when you blank out, repeat yourself. 00:32:43.165 --> 00:32:46.165 If that doesn't get you back on track, ask some other peripheral 00:32:46.165 --> 00:32:47.455 question that you've thought about. 00:32:47.905 --> 00:32:49.075 Just like you asked me earlier. 00:32:49.075 --> 00:32:51.915 You could simply say, what's something I should be asking you? 00:32:52.745 --> 00:32:54.960 And that's something I can respond to and that gives you time to think. 00:32:54.990 --> 00:32:55.170 Jeff Berman: Yeah. 00:32:55.230 --> 00:32:57.330 What have we not talked about that we should have talked about here? 00:32:57.930 --> 00:33:00.540 Matt Abrahams: I alluded to listening a little bit earlier, 00:33:00.540 --> 00:33:05.640 but listening really is critical in all communication and listening 00:33:05.640 --> 00:33:07.410 means we actually have to slow down. 00:33:07.770 --> 00:33:10.890 I have a colleague who, who jokingly says, I hope it's jokingly, that 00:33:11.130 --> 00:33:13.379 listening's that thing I have to do before I get to speak. 00:33:14.360 --> 00:33:16.990 So when I teach listening, I teach a few things. 00:33:17.020 --> 00:33:18.400 Uh, I learned this from a colleague of mine. 00:33:18.400 --> 00:33:19.750 His name is Collins Dobbs. 00:33:20.080 --> 00:33:22.030 Pace, space, grace. 00:33:22.510 --> 00:33:24.070 Jeff Berman: Pace, space, grace. 00:33:24.100 --> 00:33:26.350 Matt Abrahams: It's a way to ace your listening, so you 00:33:26.350 --> 00:33:27.320 have to slow things down. 00:33:28.000 --> 00:33:30.460 Listening is one of the only skills where we actually have to 00:33:30.460 --> 00:33:31.990 slow down to take advantage of it. 00:33:32.575 --> 00:33:34.225 So you have to slow your pace down. 00:33:34.555 --> 00:33:35.965 You have to give yourself space. 00:33:36.025 --> 00:33:39.115 You know, for me, as I get older, everything's loud and I can't hear. 00:33:39.925 --> 00:33:42.415 I have to move to a space that I can, but more importantly, 00:33:42.415 --> 00:33:43.585 I have to give mental space. 00:33:43.615 --> 00:33:46.795 I have to stop all the chatter and focus, and then grace. 00:33:46.795 --> 00:33:50.275 Grace to give yourself permission, not just to listen to the words, 00:33:50.785 --> 00:33:53.845 but how those words are said, where those words are said. 00:33:54.535 --> 00:33:56.005 That can give you a lot of insight. 00:33:56.065 --> 00:33:56.965 I'll tell you a quick story. 00:33:56.965 --> 00:33:59.275 I came out of a meeting with a colleague and my colleague said, 00:33:59.545 --> 00:34:00.370 how do you think the meeting went? 00:34:01.695 --> 00:34:05.145 And I immediately heard feedback, so I gave all the constructive feedback 00:34:05.145 --> 00:34:06.405 'cause the meeting didn't go well. 00:34:07.064 --> 00:34:08.775 What he really wanted was not feedback. 00:34:08.804 --> 00:34:10.355 He wanted support in that moment. 00:34:10.714 --> 00:34:14.085 I didn't recognize, he came out the back door, not the front door with me. 00:34:14.324 --> 00:34:18.045 He was talking quietly, he was looking down, he was sending me all these 00:34:18.045 --> 00:34:19.784 signals that I was not listening to. 00:34:20.114 --> 00:34:22.945 So pace, space, grace helps you listen better. 00:34:23.215 --> 00:34:25.465 And then the single best tool, I've said this, I've mentioned 00:34:25.465 --> 00:34:27.145 this before, paraphrasing. 00:34:27.145 --> 00:34:29.625 When you listen to paraphrase, you have to listen more deeply. 00:34:30.205 --> 00:34:32.095 You listen for the bottom line, not the top line. 00:34:32.095 --> 00:34:36.535 So if we give ourselves a little pace, space grace, and we listen to 00:34:36.535 --> 00:34:38.245 paraphrase, we learn to listen better. 00:34:38.245 --> 00:34:39.595 Now I have to be very candid with you. 00:34:39.745 --> 00:34:42.085 My wife thinks I'm a fraud when I talk about listening. 00:34:42.085 --> 00:34:44.485 'Cause she thinks I, I need a lot of practice. 00:34:44.785 --> 00:34:46.045 But we are all working on it. 00:34:46.135 --> 00:34:47.125 Jeff Berman: We are all working on it. 00:34:47.125 --> 00:34:48.985 And you're still married, so you know, you've done, 00:34:48.985 --> 00:34:49.894 Matt Abrahams: As far as I know. 00:34:49.894 --> 00:34:51.614 Jeff Berman: You've done something right here. 00:34:52.015 --> 00:34:55.405 You referenced earlier that often if someone's not agreeing with 00:34:55.405 --> 00:34:58.175 a speaker, that speaker doesn't feel like they've been heard. 00:34:58.745 --> 00:35:03.205 We're in a moment in this country where we really struggle to hear each other 00:35:03.265 --> 00:35:05.035 and to make each other feel heard. 00:35:05.545 --> 00:35:10.285 And it feels like there is so much more that divides us than unites us. 00:35:10.465 --> 00:35:11.995 I, I reject that perspective. 00:35:11.995 --> 00:35:12.295 Matt Abrahams: I agree. 00:35:12.295 --> 00:35:13.855 And the research suggests that too. 00:35:13.975 --> 00:35:16.435 Jeff Berman: It feels like to, to build back, we have to start locally. 00:35:16.435 --> 00:35:18.385 We have to start one-on-one, and then in small groups, in 00:35:18.385 --> 00:35:19.315 communities, what have you. 00:35:20.850 --> 00:35:25.620 As you observe this, what do you wish we were doing differently so that we could 00:35:25.830 --> 00:35:30.090 connect more and, and find those, those things that unite us more than divide us. 00:35:30.450 --> 00:35:33.660 Matt Abrahams: Stepping back and looking at and listening 00:35:33.660 --> 00:35:34.980 to different perspectives. 00:35:35.520 --> 00:35:36.810 I really applaud my wife. 00:35:36.810 --> 00:35:38.190 She does this better than I do. 00:35:38.580 --> 00:35:42.300 She will look at multiple news sources from different parts of the political 00:35:42.300 --> 00:35:44.040 spectrum for a particular topic. 00:35:44.970 --> 00:35:48.660 And that gives her perspective that I don't necessarily always have. 00:35:48.690 --> 00:35:52.710 So taking that step back and appreciating that there are different perspectives 00:35:52.860 --> 00:35:54.510 and hearing those different perspectives. 00:35:54.840 --> 00:35:57.570 You know, it's, it's trite and cliché to say we're all living in 00:35:57.570 --> 00:36:00.900 our own little bubbles, but it's true and we need to peer out and see. 00:36:01.370 --> 00:36:05.040 And leading within inquiry and curiosity, I think are the 00:36:05.040 --> 00:36:07.200 ways to really get that going. 00:36:07.470 --> 00:36:11.575 When you come in guns blazing, here's my position, this is what's going 00:36:11.575 --> 00:36:15.085 to happen, that, that's off-putting, that puts somebody in the defensive. 00:36:15.085 --> 00:36:17.605 But if I come in with curiosity, help me understand that. 00:36:17.875 --> 00:36:21.685 What perspective do you hold that invites at least conversation. 00:36:21.745 --> 00:36:26.520 And again, understanding that we don't always have to agree and we can 00:36:26.520 --> 00:36:28.379 appreciate somebody else's perspective. 00:36:28.740 --> 00:36:31.649 That lays the groundwork for the kinds of conversations you're 00:36:31.649 --> 00:36:32.910 hoping for, and I'm hoping for. 00:36:35.160 --> 00:36:35.580 Jeff Berman: I love that. 00:36:35.640 --> 00:36:36.480 What a great place to wrap. 00:36:36.480 --> 00:36:37.350 Thank you for being with us. 00:36:37.439 --> 00:36:38.220 Matt Abrahams: Thank you so much. 00:36:38.220 --> 00:36:39.330 I enjoyed the conversation. 00:36:41.520 --> 00:36:43.980 Jeff Berman: Thanks again to my friend Matt Abrahams for joining us. 00:36:43.980 --> 00:36:47.399 His brilliant podcast is Think Fast Talk Smart, and his book 00:36:47.640 --> 00:36:49.379 is Think Faster, Talk Smarter. 00:36:50.100 --> 00:36:50.819 I'm Jeff Berman. 00:36:51.120 --> 00:36:51.930 Thank you for listening. 00:36:56.765 --> 00:36:59.735 Matt Abrahams: Well, thanks for listening to my conversation on Masters of Scale. 00:37:00.125 --> 00:37:04.235 I hope you learn practical tips that can help you communicate more effectively. 00:37:04.625 --> 00:37:07.745 If you'd like to hear more conversations like this with leaders breaking 00:37:07.745 --> 00:37:11.225 down how they build, lead and scale, you can follow Masters of Scale 00:37:11.225 --> 00:37:13.115 wherever you get your podcasts.