1
00:00:00,000 --> 00:00:03,180
Welcome to the podcast. Here's a
sneak peek of what's coming up

2
00:00:03,180 --> 00:00:06,180
in today's episode. Did you used
to be crap sales? I'm gonna say

3
00:00:06,180 --> 00:00:09,780
I think I still am. Every time I
think I've got good something comes

4
00:00:09,780 --> 00:00:12,420
along to make me realize how
little I know. So then I learn

5
00:00:12,420 --> 00:00:15,240
more, and I get better, and then
something comes along and makes

6
00:00:15,240 --> 00:00:18,060
me realize, oh, I want to be
like them. They're amazing. And

7
00:00:18,060 --> 00:00:20,780
I think that's one of the ways
that I did slowly get better. I

8
00:00:20,780 --> 00:00:24,500
genuinely still think I'm not as
good as a lot of people. There

9
00:00:24,500 --> 00:00:27,380
was a time that I thought I was
really good. Okay, I turned up

10
00:00:27,380 --> 00:00:30,500
at the front on my first day,
and I was heartbroken. Didn't

11
00:00:30,500 --> 00:00:33,320
have a clue. I was awful. I was
young. I had no emotional

12
00:00:33,320 --> 00:00:36,620
intelligence. I was naive.
Should have been fired from

13
00:00:36,620 --> 00:00:39,860
these jobs, but they supported
me, and they helped me, and I

14
00:00:39,860 --> 00:00:43,480
started to get good. Let's grow
our people, because we are going

15
00:00:43,480 --> 00:00:46,060
to get off this hamster wheel
every month, every quarter being

16
00:00:46,060 --> 00:00:49,360
a slog. What would you say to an
SDR when you're coaching them

17
00:00:49,420 --> 00:00:51,940
and you can tell that they've
just got it in them. They're

18
00:00:51,940 --> 00:00:54,700
exceptional, they're talented.
They can do this, but the

19
00:00:54,700 --> 00:00:57,520
monotony is killing them. I've
worked with a lot of SDRs, and

20
00:00:57,520 --> 00:00:59,860
one of the first things I ask
them is, when we lost out a week

21
00:00:59,860 --> 00:01:03,240
off same call day after day in
the same office on the same

22
00:01:03,240 --> 00:01:06,840
phone, and before you know it,
you've slipped into that

23
00:01:06,840 --> 00:01:10,560
pattern. Take a step back, strip
it back to the basics, go to

24
00:01:10,620 --> 00:01:13,560
absolute bare minimum in your
calls. That's the advice you'd

25
00:01:13,560 --> 00:01:16,920
give to managers on how to help
their SDRs break this monotony

26
00:01:16,920 --> 00:01:20,780
and keep going. The first advice
I'd give to managers is, what

27
00:01:20,780 --> 00:01:23,540
piece of advice would you give
to someone looking to step up

28
00:01:23,540 --> 00:01:26,240
into their first leadership
role? Ask yourself, why you want

29
00:01:26,240 --> 00:01:29,300
to do it? Do you really want to
be a leader? And it's no longer

30
00:01:29,300 --> 00:01:33,860
about you. What's the most
common flaw you see in sales

31
00:01:33,860 --> 00:01:37,460
managers using the myth that
they haven't got time to look

32
00:01:37,460 --> 00:01:40,100
after their team, because
everything else should be

33
00:01:40,100 --> 00:01:44,080
secondary. Biggest thing you can
do as a sales manager is take,

34
00:01:48,280 --> 00:01:51,160
hello and welcome to another
episode of The I used to be crap

35
00:01:51,160 --> 00:01:54,460
at sales podcast. I'm your host,
Mark Akers, the co founder and

36
00:01:54,460 --> 00:01:58,180
Head of Sales here at my sales
coach, we called the podcast I

37
00:01:58,180 --> 00:02:01,800
used to be crap at sales because
all of our guests used to be

38
00:02:02,580 --> 00:02:07,560
today. I've got the director of
sixth door and the co host of

39
00:02:07,560 --> 00:02:13,140
the sales Dojo podcast. That's
Chris Dawson. Chris, welcome

40
00:02:13,200 --> 00:02:16,980
from podcast host to podcast
guest. It's great to have you

41
00:02:16,980 --> 00:02:17,940
here today. How you feeling

42
00:02:18,240 --> 00:02:20,400
very good, really good to
finally come and have a chat

43
00:02:20,400 --> 00:02:21,080
with you. Mark, it's

44
00:02:21,080 --> 00:02:23,420
great to have you here. Let's
kick it off with a yes, no

45
00:02:23,420 --> 00:02:26,060
question, Chris, did you used to
be crap at sales.

46
00:02:27,740 --> 00:02:31,100
I'm going to swerve the yes, no
answer. I'm going to say I think

47
00:02:31,100 --> 00:02:35,360
I still am. Okay. Tell me more
about that. So my sales career

48
00:02:35,360 --> 00:02:39,380
is vast, and I've always looked
at myself going through plateaus

49
00:02:39,380 --> 00:02:43,780
where every time I think I've
got good summit comes along to

50
00:02:43,780 --> 00:02:46,960
make me realize how little I
know. So then I learn more, and

51
00:02:46,960 --> 00:02:49,840
I get better, and then something
comes along and makes me

52
00:02:49,840 --> 00:02:53,140
realize, oh, I want to be like
them. They're amazing. And I

53
00:02:53,140 --> 00:02:55,780
keep going through these phases,
and I think that's one of the

54
00:02:55,780 --> 00:03:00,240
ways that I did slowly get
better, was I genuinely still

55
00:03:00,240 --> 00:03:04,620
think I'm not as good as a lot
of people. When was the most

56
00:03:04,620 --> 00:03:06,840
recent example of when you felt
like that?

57
00:03:08,160 --> 00:03:12,960
So I don't remember if you
remember back in lockdown, we

58
00:03:12,960 --> 00:03:16,200
run a show every night on
clubhouse, clubhouse. Yeah.

59
00:03:16,200 --> 00:03:20,480
Listened. Amazing experience,
not lockdown. I know that was

60
00:03:20,480 --> 00:03:24,080
grim for a lot of people, but I
got to spend an hour every night

61
00:03:24,320 --> 00:03:25,100
for 297

62
00:03:26,720 --> 00:03:30,260
days, I think we did it in a
row, listening to people from

63
00:03:30,320 --> 00:03:34,640
all over the world take on how
to sell. I was just a sponge. I

64
00:03:34,640 --> 00:03:38,840
was I got like, seven notebooks
full of this stuff that we were

65
00:03:38,840 --> 00:03:41,200
learning from people, from
yourself as well, and from rich

66
00:03:41,620 --> 00:03:45,760
and, you know, for Stephen
hyman's daughter, was on there

67
00:03:45,760 --> 00:03:49,000
some nights, and people from
Bali and Canada and the US and

68
00:03:49,000 --> 00:03:52,720
South Africa and everything. And
it really humbled me that I'd

69
00:03:52,720 --> 00:03:55,120
got into a position where, you
know, I was feeling pretty proud

70
00:03:55,120 --> 00:03:57,940
of myself, built a successful
sales training business, closed

71
00:03:57,940 --> 00:04:00,780
big deals. So I'm not saying
that I'm a bad salesperson at

72
00:04:00,780 --> 00:04:04,680
all, but I still think I'm, I'm
a millionth of what I could be.

73
00:04:04,680 --> 00:04:08,160
I'll give you an idea. Go ahead.
So you were just telling me off

74
00:04:08,160 --> 00:04:10,980
camera that you're, I'm allowed
to say. So I'm assuming, if not,

75
00:04:10,980 --> 00:04:13,080
we'll edit out. But you're
writing a book, right? I am at

76
00:04:13,080 --> 00:04:18,660
the moment, yep, um, that's a
book. There seven notepads. Oh

77
00:04:18,660 --> 00:04:21,920
yeah, worth of learnings. Oh
yeah. Imagine the book that you

78
00:04:21,920 --> 00:04:26,600
could write there. Just each
page is a lesson, right? Oh, I

79
00:04:26,600 --> 00:04:30,560
mean, the rooms that we did so
like one night, seven o'clock at

80
00:04:30,560 --> 00:04:33,560
night, everyone's been stuck in
the house for weeks. There's

81
00:04:33,560 --> 00:04:37,280
people dying all over the world,
and there's me and Leon going,

82
00:04:37,280 --> 00:04:39,440
hi everyone. Tonight, we're
going to talk about how to get

83
00:04:39,440 --> 00:04:42,380
referral business. Yeah, and 150
people from around the world,

84
00:04:42,380 --> 00:04:44,920
salespeople, sales professionals
would come on and give us their

85
00:04:44,920 --> 00:04:47,500
ideas on how to do that, and I'd
write it all down. I felt like a

86
00:04:47,500 --> 00:04:50,620
thief, like we were getting this
for free. And yeah, we've got so

87
00:04:50,620 --> 00:04:52,960
how to get referral business,
how to make a cold call, how to

88
00:04:52,960 --> 00:04:56,080
handle a price objection, how to
deal with your mindset, how to

89
00:04:56,080 --> 00:04:59,320
raise VC funding. Could be
anything, and I've got notebooks

90
00:04:59,320 --> 00:04:59,920
full of it. Yeah.

91
00:05:00,000 --> 00:05:00,300
That

92
00:05:00,360 --> 00:05:06,300
is 296 lockdown lessons for
sales professionals. I'd buy

93
00:05:06,300 --> 00:05:08,760
that book. I'm going to buy your
first book that's coming out,

94
00:05:08,760 --> 00:05:13,800
but I'm going to buy the sequel.
So when you think back to your

95
00:05:13,800 --> 00:05:16,320
sales career, one of the
questions I love to ask is there

96
00:05:16,320 --> 00:05:20,720
any Howler mistakes that you can
think back to and share with us,

97
00:05:21,620 --> 00:05:22,220
there's

98
00:05:22,280 --> 00:05:26,120
got to be so many, hasn't there?
I've high five to Chico exec,

99
00:05:26,180 --> 00:05:29,540
not realizing they were the
chief exec anyway, proper High

100
00:05:29,540 --> 00:05:30,440
Five went in.

101
00:05:31,820 --> 00:05:36,500
If I go back a long time, still
my very earliest sales job, or

102
00:05:36,500 --> 00:05:40,480
one of my very early sales jobs,
I was 17. I was a student the

103
00:05:40,480 --> 00:05:45,700
summer of 96 Brit pops raging.
The sun was shining. I was 17.

104
00:05:45,700 --> 00:05:50,500
What a time to be alive. All my
friends were picking cabbages in

105
00:05:50,500 --> 00:05:54,160
fields in the summer holidays to
make money or working in shops

106
00:05:54,220 --> 00:05:57,400
or laboring. And I'm, like a lot
of salespeople, inherently,

107
00:05:57,400 --> 00:06:00,900
quite a lazy guy. Mark, yeah, I
managed to find a job selling

108
00:06:00,900 --> 00:06:06,240
oil paintings door to door, like
you do, and I went off on summer

109
00:06:06,240 --> 00:06:08,940
evenings listening to pulp and
blur on the way there in a

110
00:06:08,940 --> 00:06:12,120
minibus with a bag of oil
paintings to a housing estate in

111
00:06:12,120 --> 00:06:15,660
Cheshire or somewhere. I'd be
given three streets to Canvas

112
00:06:15,660 --> 00:06:19,500
for three hours, and we'd knock
on the door and maybe go into it

113
00:06:19,500 --> 00:06:23,000
later on what we said and how we
do it, but I've been in places

114
00:06:23,000 --> 00:06:25,940
and got drunk with people. I've
been chased by dogs. I've had

115
00:06:25,940 --> 00:06:30,680
the police called on me. I've
made dreadful mistakes. I think

116
00:06:30,680 --> 00:06:37,280
one of the biggest I've made was
quite recently. And I'm sorry if

117
00:06:37,280 --> 00:06:40,300
you're listening or watching
this, if it was you, we added

118
00:06:40,660 --> 00:06:43,780
when it first came out, a note
taking function to zoom. You

119
00:06:43,780 --> 00:06:45,280
know, it dictates everything
that was

120
00:06:46,480 --> 00:06:50,320
written. And once the meeting
had finished, we said some less

121
00:06:50,320 --> 00:06:53,860
than complimentary things about
the person on the meeting, which

122
00:06:53,920 --> 00:06:56,380
in hindsight, we stood up for.
They were fairly well deserved,

123
00:06:56,620 --> 00:07:00,300
not realizing it, will
automatically email them a full

124
00:07:00,300 --> 00:07:03,540
transcription of everything
we've just said with your name.

125
00:07:03,780 --> 00:07:07,440
So it literally said Chris, and
there's this is word for word,

126
00:07:07,440 --> 00:07:09,660
what I said, and it dropped in
his emails, and we didn't

127
00:07:09,660 --> 00:07:15,000
realize for like two hours,
until we got an email, which was

128
00:07:15,000 --> 00:07:17,880
rather harshly written. I knew
what had the second I opened

129
00:07:17,880 --> 00:07:20,780
this email, I knew what had
happened. So we've turned that

130
00:07:20,780 --> 00:07:23,420
note taking function off
straightaway. Important lesson

131
00:07:23,420 --> 00:07:26,360
for everybody, technology is
listening all the time now, be

132
00:07:26,420 --> 00:07:29,000
dead careful what you've got
attached. Yeah, that didn't go

133
00:07:29,000 --> 00:07:32,540
very well. That is a hell of a
lesson. A heck of a lesson,

134
00:07:32,540 --> 00:07:35,720
yeah? So just to be really clear
that this is on Zoom, you've got

135
00:07:35,720 --> 00:07:39,920
the AI summary. So that AI
summary, yeah, is this a plug in

136
00:07:39,920 --> 00:07:41,800
that you use in addition to
that, or is this the Zoom AI?

137
00:07:41,860 --> 00:07:45,520
No, we were using an otter
plugin. So otter then

138
00:07:45,520 --> 00:07:48,880
automatically emails everybody
invited to that meeting with the

139
00:07:48,880 --> 00:07:52,360
full transcription, whether they
were on it at that point or not,

140
00:07:52,420 --> 00:07:55,540
right? And it's literally your
name, what you said, somebody

141
00:07:55,540 --> 00:08:00,040
else's name, what they said. And
I think the email started with,

142
00:08:00,040 --> 00:08:04,080
and, excuse my language, but
word for word, Dear Chris,

143
00:08:04,260 --> 00:08:08,040
here's a fucking life hack for
you. Turn your transcription

144
00:08:08,040 --> 00:08:12,480
service off if you're going to
talk smack about people. If you

145
00:08:12,480 --> 00:08:15,240
ever had it where your heart
just goes in your stomach, you

146
00:08:15,240 --> 00:08:19,860
go cold. So we're like, Well,
what are we going to do? Like,

147
00:08:20,640 --> 00:08:23,420
there's no excuse. You bang to
write it literally says your

148
00:08:23,420 --> 00:08:27,080
name. This is what you said. You
can't get out of it, so we

149
00:08:27,080 --> 00:08:29,600
double down. Really, there was
no way out of it. There was no

150
00:08:29,600 --> 00:08:31,880
excuse. So we double down. I
just reply, and I said, you

151
00:08:31,880 --> 00:08:37,100
know, obviously no offense calls
you talk differently in the

152
00:08:37,100 --> 00:08:40,600
background, don't you? But we
did mean what we said. Would you

153
00:08:40,600 --> 00:08:43,840
like some feedback? We just went
for it. Double down on it. There

154
00:08:43,840 --> 00:08:47,740
was no other way out of it.
Didn't get the deal, no, like,

155
00:08:47,740 --> 00:08:51,220
didn't get anything further.
But, yeah, these heart stopping

156
00:08:51,220 --> 00:08:52,240
moments. Wow.

157
00:08:52,300 --> 00:08:55,120
What a story. I can't wait to
hear off camera exactly what was

158
00:08:55,120 --> 00:08:59,800
said. But there we go. Okay, so
I was looking at your career,

159
00:08:59,800 --> 00:09:04,140
and I feel like we've known each
other for years. Yeah, like in

160
00:09:04,140 --> 00:09:08,760
lockdown, I listened on
clubhouse, and I don't think I

161
00:09:08,760 --> 00:09:10,320
ever spoke on it. Maybe

162
00:09:10,320 --> 00:09:13,500
I did, but I'm sure we did have
a chat now and then, Mark, yeah,

163
00:09:13,500 --> 00:09:13,680
no,

164
00:09:13,680 --> 00:09:15,840
maybe we did, but I remember
listening, and I thought I'd

165
00:09:15,840 --> 00:09:18,060
known each other for ages, but
obviously we've already met a

166
00:09:18,060 --> 00:09:22,820
few times, but I was looking
over your background, I see

167
00:09:22,820 --> 00:09:28,100
obviously started in advertising
in 1996 as you say, a year to be

168
00:09:28,100 --> 00:09:31,880
alive. That was a year before I
started secondary school. Just

169
00:09:31,880 --> 00:09:34,160
not trying to make you feel old.
I'm an old father, that's okay.

170
00:09:35,300 --> 00:09:40,360
Then retail sales, then a couple
of years in telesales, then you

171
00:09:40,360 --> 00:09:44,740
moved to iron Mars, a sales team
leader, but still an IC yet

172
00:09:44,740 --> 00:09:47,800
managing a team of up to 12
people and promoted Sales

173
00:09:47,800 --> 00:09:50,980
Training Manager in 2007 which
is, I think, where you found

174
00:09:50,980 --> 00:09:54,340
your calling, so to speak. Yeah,
then ahead of sales training at

175
00:09:54,340 --> 00:09:59,140
BT for just over three years
before founding sixth door, so

176
00:09:59,680 --> 00:10:05,280
sort. You told it all up period
of 27 and a half years you've

177
00:10:05,280 --> 00:10:09,120
been in this year, really? Yeah,
I was gonna ask you, how long

178
00:10:09,120 --> 00:10:11,640
you think you crap for like, in
that period, because one of the

179
00:10:11,640 --> 00:10:13,680
things people say to me is,
like, probably crap at eight

180
00:10:13,680 --> 00:10:16,800
years or 10 years. But obviously
you've slightly thrown a curb in

181
00:10:16,800 --> 00:10:20,100
there saying you feel like, and
I get that logic, yeah.

182
00:10:20,160 --> 00:10:23,540
Well, would it let me put some
definition on that? There was a

183
00:10:23,540 --> 00:10:26,900
time that I thought I was really
good, okay, the few instances

184
00:10:26,900 --> 00:10:31,400
that stand out to me, Mark one
was, I've got no discernible

185
00:10:31,400 --> 00:10:35,840
skill. My family laughs that in
the Apocalypse, when we need

186
00:10:35,840 --> 00:10:40,160
people to rebuild civilization,
I am going to be useless, yeah,

187
00:10:40,400 --> 00:10:43,360
unless you want somebody who's
great at talking to people and

188
00:10:43,360 --> 00:10:46,420
selling, but if we need to build
houses and men stuff, not a

189
00:10:46,420 --> 00:10:49,840
chance. So I've always sold.
It's the only discernible skill

190
00:10:49,840 --> 00:10:53,440
I've got. So when I was younger,
sold oil paintings door to door.

191
00:10:53,680 --> 00:10:57,520
I paid my way through university
selling Pokemon paraphernalia on

192
00:10:57,520 --> 00:11:01,260
the street like I hawked it on
the street. My first trip to

193
00:11:01,260 --> 00:11:06,300
Newcastle ever was, I made
posters of famous footballers on

194
00:11:06,300 --> 00:11:09,720
a PC, which in the late 90s,
early 2000s clearly weren't very

195
00:11:09,720 --> 00:11:13,140
good. Had them laminated, and
then I just stand outside St

196
00:11:13,140 --> 00:11:16,980
James's Park at big match days
and sell them on the street

197
00:11:17,040 --> 00:11:19,560
until we got chased off by other
hawkers or the police or

198
00:11:19,560 --> 00:11:23,660
whatever. And it was that whole
entrepreneurial sell or you

199
00:11:23,660 --> 00:11:26,540
don't pay the rent sort of
spirit. So when I got my first

200
00:11:26,540 --> 00:11:29,960
sales job, I went to it thinking
I was a really good salesperson.

201
00:11:29,960 --> 00:11:33,080
This was my first lesson that I
wasn't market stall street

202
00:11:33,080 --> 00:11:37,700
corners, door knocking, B to C.
I sold fake glasses with a fake

203
00:11:37,700 --> 00:11:42,460
nose on. I had a bag of 250 of
them big black glasses with a

204
00:11:42,460 --> 00:11:45,400
big nose and a mustache
attached. And at University of

205
00:11:45,400 --> 00:11:47,980
Central Lancashire, they used to
have a thing called The Longest

206
00:11:47,980 --> 00:11:52,000
Day, last day of term. They'd
have a 12, it's before 24 hour

207
00:11:52,000 --> 00:11:54,760
licensing. They opened at
midday, closed at two at night,

208
00:11:55,120 --> 00:11:58,600
14 hours of Bedlam, drinking
parties, bands, all that lot.

209
00:11:58,840 --> 00:12:02,460
There was a queue half a mile
long to get into this thing, and

210
00:12:02,460 --> 00:12:05,340
I just stood at one end of the
queue with a pair of glasses

211
00:12:05,340 --> 00:12:07,740
with a fake nose and a fake
mustache on with a bag full of

212
00:12:07,740 --> 00:12:10,200
them with a sign around my neck
and lots of them, two quid. By

213
00:12:10,200 --> 00:12:12,660
the time I got to the front of
the queue, they'd all gone. I

214
00:12:12,660 --> 00:12:15,120
had a load of money in my
pocket, and I went and enjoyed

215
00:12:15,120 --> 00:12:17,700
the longest day. And it was dead
easy, because by the time I'd

216
00:12:17,700 --> 00:12:19,980
sold some of them, everybody
would see other people wearing

217
00:12:19,980 --> 00:12:22,640
them and they were and it just
kind of snowballed. So all I've

218
00:12:22,640 --> 00:12:25,040
ever done was sell so when I got
my first what I'd call

219
00:12:25,160 --> 00:12:28,400
professional sales job, which we
can go into later, I thought,

220
00:12:28,400 --> 00:12:32,240
I'll smash this like, how dead
easy. But it was on the phone.

221
00:12:32,840 --> 00:12:36,860
Never done that. I turned up at
the on my first day full of

222
00:12:36,860 --> 00:12:40,540
spunk and ego like most 18 year
olds are, yeah, and I was

223
00:12:40,540 --> 00:12:43,840
heartbroken when I picked up the
phone. I just didn't have a

224
00:12:43,840 --> 00:12:48,880
clue. I was absolutely and I was
for months, I was awful, and I'd

225
00:12:48,880 --> 00:12:51,760
learned this roller coaster
really quickly that so many SDRs

226
00:12:51,760 --> 00:12:54,820
have of. One, the phone is
really hard. Two, how do you

227
00:12:54,820 --> 00:12:58,240
control your mindset? How do you
cope with rejection? How do you

228
00:12:58,240 --> 00:13:01,320
hit a target? All these things.
And that was one of those first

229
00:13:01,320 --> 00:13:04,140
plateaus of, I'm really good at
sales, to Oh no, I don't know

230
00:13:04,140 --> 00:13:08,400
anything, do I? And that was
kind of that beginning of that

231
00:13:08,700 --> 00:13:12,120
journey, to use a phrase as we
go along, to me realizing that

232
00:13:12,480 --> 00:13:15,000
I'm still not very good. Who
helped you turn that around?

233
00:13:15,420 --> 00:13:19,140
Number of people along the way
and a number of happenstance

234
00:13:19,440 --> 00:13:22,460
took me quite a time to get my
head around the phone in my

235
00:13:22,460 --> 00:13:24,980
first phone job, I had a lack of
confidence, which had been

236
00:13:24,980 --> 00:13:27,920
knocked I was young. I had no
emotional intelligence. I was

237
00:13:27,920 --> 00:13:32,360
naive, but I learned it, and I
started going with I had a few

238
00:13:32,360 --> 00:13:36,740
people that really supported me.
I often call out the MD of the

239
00:13:37,100 --> 00:13:40,180
champion newspaper group, lady
called Betty Drummond, who

240
00:13:40,660 --> 00:13:44,380
should have fired me? Should
have been fired from these jobs,

241
00:13:44,800 --> 00:13:47,500
but they supported me, and they
helped me, and I started to get

242
00:13:47,500 --> 00:13:50,140
good, and then I went and I
moved on, and you're bad again.

243
00:13:50,320 --> 00:13:53,260
And it's that, that step up. So
there's been a number of people

244
00:13:53,260 --> 00:13:55,540
along the way. There's been
myself, there's been a number of

245
00:13:55,540 --> 00:13:59,020
books, there's been some points
of realization, and I suppose at

246
00:13:59,020 --> 00:14:02,580
the point in time I am now, it's
churlish off me to say I'm not

247
00:14:02,580 --> 00:14:05,160
very good at selling. You know,
there's, it's that classic

248
00:14:05,160 --> 00:14:08,160
imposter syndrome. There's a
wealth of evidence to say I am,

249
00:14:08,460 --> 00:14:10,740
but there's probably a wealth of
people out there that would go,

250
00:14:10,800 --> 00:14:14,100
No, it's not. It's crap, because
they dealt with me during a crap

251
00:14:14,100 --> 00:14:16,200
phase. So yeah, it's an
interesting

252
00:14:16,260 --> 00:14:18,960
ride. Well, there might be one
prospect in particular just got

253
00:14:18,960 --> 00:14:19,860
there might be somebody

254
00:14:19,860 --> 00:14:21,980
there who's pretty hungry with
me. Yeah, no,

255
00:14:21,980 --> 00:14:27,200
I know you're being very British
and humbling when you say you're

256
00:14:27,200 --> 00:14:30,980
not. I know you're a phenomenal
sales trainer and coach, really

257
00:14:30,980 --> 00:14:33,620
lucky to have your time here
today. But yeah, it's

258
00:14:33,620 --> 00:14:37,460
interesting that ego that you
would have had going into your

259
00:14:37,460 --> 00:14:40,240
first job, and I understand
that, like, actually, you know,

260
00:14:40,240 --> 00:14:43,780
some very entrepreneurial young
age, and you seem to have lots

261
00:14:43,780 --> 00:14:46,360
of stories. I'm sure we could
spend half hour talking about

262
00:14:46,360 --> 00:14:49,540
all the ways you made money and
sold it and early. Oh yeah, but

263
00:14:49,540 --> 00:14:52,900
let's talk about that first job
then. So how did you go from

264
00:14:52,900 --> 00:14:59,680
that, that humbling moment, to
being a team leader at iomm? I.

265
00:15:00,000 --> 00:15:02,280
That's quite astounding. You say
you should have been sacked and

266
00:15:02,280 --> 00:15:06,420
you weren't. How did you go from
that to that? So

267
00:15:07,920 --> 00:15:10,920
very potted history was I got I
got really good on the phone,

268
00:15:11,700 --> 00:15:15,600
started beating target, then I
decided to go uni, because at

269
00:15:15,600 --> 00:15:17,940
the time in the 90s, that was
the thing you had to do if you

270
00:15:17,940 --> 00:15:20,660
wanted to get anywhere. Sales
wasn't recognized like it is

271
00:15:20,660 --> 00:15:23,420
now, but I sold stuff to pay my
way through there. One of the

272
00:15:23,420 --> 00:15:25,940
jobs I got at uni was a clothes
shop, and it was you got

273
00:15:25,940 --> 00:15:28,400
commission on the clothes that
you sold. So it's a different

274
00:15:28,400 --> 00:15:32,120
type of selling, again, hustling
for clothing. People would come

275
00:15:32,120 --> 00:15:34,460
in, we'd have DJs in the
windows, a really cool clothes

276
00:15:34,460 --> 00:15:37,340
shop, and you just go over with
a cup of tea. First thing I

277
00:15:37,340 --> 00:15:39,680
learned make them a cup of tea,
because you've got them for 20

278
00:15:39,680 --> 00:15:42,400
minutes, then, because they've
got to drink the cup of tea and

279
00:15:42,400 --> 00:15:44,200
you can chat about it. Oh, I
thought you'd see those, those

280
00:15:44,200 --> 00:15:46,240
of you in Yeah, you're right.
That would look good, wouldn't

281
00:15:46,240 --> 00:15:48,280
it? And off we go. And we're
hustling for clothes. Watch. We

282
00:15:48,280 --> 00:15:50,500
got commission on how many
clothes we sold, and I was all

283
00:15:50,500 --> 00:15:52,960
about the commission, but then I
wasn't making enough money,

284
00:15:52,960 --> 00:15:55,120
because there's no money in
retail, so I look for where's

285
00:15:55,120 --> 00:15:58,000
the more money. And I got into
what I would class as my first

286
00:15:58,000 --> 00:16:00,720
proper SDR role, which wasn't
recognized like that back then,

287
00:16:00,720 --> 00:16:04,800
but they had a really good basic
for the period, dreadful for

288
00:16:04,800 --> 00:16:08,100
now, for the period. And that
attracted me is that if I get

289
00:16:08,100 --> 00:16:11,700
commission on top as well, I've
got a bit of security, and off

290
00:16:11,700 --> 00:16:15,240
we go. And when I started, I'd
been hustling clothes again. I

291
00:16:15,240 --> 00:16:18,600
was at that ego point, and I
went in and I actually smashed

292
00:16:18,600 --> 00:16:21,740
it really well when I when I
started off. But it was my first

293
00:16:21,740 --> 00:16:24,620
full time SDR role. And the
thing I hadn't learned at that

294
00:16:24,620 --> 00:16:27,920
point, I'd learned to objection
handle and open a call and put

295
00:16:27,920 --> 00:16:31,940
the call time in and the dials.
What I hadn't learned was the

296
00:16:31,940 --> 00:16:36,200
mindset thing. So I started off
really well, with my ego, with

297
00:16:36,200 --> 00:16:40,480
my skill, I was doing great.
Then what I'd not learnt is how

298
00:16:40,480 --> 00:16:43,720
to deal with the monotony that
started to get to me, not to

299
00:16:43,720 --> 00:16:47,860
deal with the bad week when you
inevitably get it. Still only in

300
00:16:47,860 --> 00:16:52,300
my early 20s, I didn't have the
EQ to deal with that as well,

301
00:16:52,360 --> 00:16:55,060
how to separate what's going on
outside the office from inside.

302
00:16:55,300 --> 00:16:58,000
It was that extra part that I've
not learned then, and that was

303
00:16:58,000 --> 00:17:01,680
the next platter. I went
downhill again there, and I just

304
00:17:01,680 --> 00:17:05,100
it was like steps going up a
plateau, not that good, up

305
00:17:05,100 --> 00:17:10,500
again, until I eventually got on
that thing. One of the big

306
00:17:10,500 --> 00:17:13,260
things that did help with that
was, and I don't know if anybody

307
00:17:13,260 --> 00:17:18,720
listening to this can empathize
with this, I moved offices. I

308
00:17:18,720 --> 00:17:22,880
was with a certain group,
certain place with a load of

309
00:17:22,880 --> 00:17:26,000
people doing it in a certain way
that just I didn't gel with. I

310
00:17:26,000 --> 00:17:28,640
didn't like going in the office
in the morning. I didn't really

311
00:17:28,640 --> 00:17:31,700
want to be there. I wanted to
get the call over with. And it

312
00:17:31,700 --> 00:17:35,480
put me in quite a dark place, as
anybody who's been in SDR can

313
00:17:36,080 --> 00:17:39,020
testify to. And I moved offices
to same company, but to a

314
00:17:39,020 --> 00:17:41,080
different place with different
people, with a different leader,

315
00:17:41,080 --> 00:17:44,680
with a different outlook, and it
was like a fresh start. And I

316
00:17:44,680 --> 00:17:48,580
really took off then and again,
just up these steps and up these

317
00:17:48,580 --> 00:17:51,100
steps, and then you don't
realize it, you're suddenly a

318
00:17:51,100 --> 00:17:56,320
lot better. It's like a sport or
learning to drive or anything,

319
00:17:56,440 --> 00:17:59,380
because it's so incremental. You
don't realize till you look

320
00:17:59,380 --> 00:18:02,460
back, how much better you've got
and then I started getting

321
00:18:02,460 --> 00:18:05,940
consistent on target and helping
other people get consistent on

322
00:18:05,940 --> 00:18:10,560
target and learning new ways,
and then reading books. And I

323
00:18:10,560 --> 00:18:13,140
think the biggest pivotal moment
at that point was I took it

324
00:18:13,140 --> 00:18:14,220
seriously. All of a sudden,

325
00:18:14,520 --> 00:18:19,020
there's a lot you said there
that I'd love to dive into. I

326
00:18:19,020 --> 00:18:22,640
think that that last bit of
taking it seriously is a big

327
00:18:22,640 --> 00:18:26,000
thing, because I think a lot of
people fall into sales Well, I

328
00:18:26,060 --> 00:18:30,440
mean, we all, yeah, exactly
right. And we do that almost

329
00:18:30,980 --> 00:18:33,740
can't do anything else. Yeah,
I'll take that job, or I need

330
00:18:33,740 --> 00:18:37,100
money, or this, I'll do this for
a little while. And it's that

331
00:18:37,100 --> 00:18:42,520
realization of, actually, this
is a skill, this thing that I do

332
00:18:42,580 --> 00:18:47,320
that pays my salary, that pays
for my mortgage, funds my

333
00:18:47,320 --> 00:18:51,760
lifestyle, this is a skill. If I
can fine tune this and you take

334
00:18:51,760 --> 00:18:55,660
it seriously, I can make more
money. But the bit I really want

335
00:18:55,660 --> 00:19:00,280
to ask you about is a challenge
that I see SDRs have themselves,

336
00:19:00,520 --> 00:19:06,000
but managers have with SDRs the
monotony. Yeah, so let's think

337
00:19:06,000 --> 00:19:09,780
about, first of all, from an SDR
point of view, right? We know

338
00:19:10,440 --> 00:19:15,780
how important that role is. It
is vital to pipeline fixes

339
00:19:15,780 --> 00:19:19,500
almost every problem that's
monotonous. Yeah, every day is

340
00:19:19,500 --> 00:19:22,820
the same thing. Let's talk about
the SDR first, and I want to get

341
00:19:22,820 --> 00:19:26,240
to a manager. But what would you
say to an SDR and you're

342
00:19:26,300 --> 00:19:29,540
coaching them, and you can tell
that they've just got it in

343
00:19:29,540 --> 00:19:31,880
them. They're exceptional,
they're talented, they can do

344
00:19:31,880 --> 00:19:34,700
this, but the monotony is
killing them. Yeah. What do you

345
00:19:34,700 --> 00:19:35,960
say to them? How do you coach
them?

346
00:19:36,500 --> 00:19:38,720
There's a number of things. And
you know, one thing I've really

347
00:19:38,720 --> 00:19:42,520
noticed within the SDR world as
well. And I don't know whether

348
00:19:43,120 --> 00:19:45,820
this is just me that's or if you
relate to this, people don't

349
00:19:45,820 --> 00:19:50,320
take time off. People become
obsessed with the role, and

350
00:19:50,320 --> 00:19:52,720
they've got a target here in the
field, they can't take any time

351
00:19:52,720 --> 00:19:56,260
off. And I've worked with a lot
of SDRs, and one of the first

352
00:19:56,260 --> 00:19:59,920
things I asked them is, when we
last had a week off? And quite.

353
00:20:00,000 --> 00:20:03,720
Half an hour eight months ago.
I'm like, and it's not about

354
00:20:03,720 --> 00:20:07,740
burnout or any of these things,
but it's about you just need

355
00:20:07,740 --> 00:20:11,460
that reset a little bit. You've
got to take that step back.

356
00:20:11,820 --> 00:20:15,300
There's Have you ever seen Dead
Poets Society? Robin Williams

357
00:20:15,300 --> 00:20:19,440
film? Highly recommend it. So
very short. Gist of it is, Robin

358
00:20:19,440 --> 00:20:22,460
Williams is a maverick English
teacher in a private school in

359
00:20:22,460 --> 00:20:26,720
the 50s, and he's trying to get
the students out of this normal

360
00:20:26,720 --> 00:20:29,360
mindset, that they have this
regimented mindset. So he takes

361
00:20:29,360 --> 00:20:32,000
them all in the courtyard, so
there's 25 students, and he

362
00:20:32,000 --> 00:20:34,340
says, right, I want you to all
work around the courtyard in a

363
00:20:34,340 --> 00:20:38,240
circle, but do a silly walk. Do
whatever you want. You can hop,

364
00:20:38,240 --> 00:20:41,020
you can skip, you can jump, you
can do strides, you can walk

365
00:20:41,020 --> 00:20:44,800
backwards, do whatever you want.
All work, all walk in all

366
00:20:44,800 --> 00:20:48,580
different ways, going round, and
within three circuits of the

367
00:20:48,580 --> 00:20:52,120
courtyard, they're all walking
in absolute unison. They're all

368
00:20:52,120 --> 00:20:56,800
marching to a beat together. And
this is how an SDRs life can go

369
00:20:57,700 --> 00:21:01,500
same call day after day in the
same office on the same phone,

370
00:21:01,680 --> 00:21:05,400
and before you know it, you've
slipped into that pattern. You

371
00:21:05,400 --> 00:21:08,280
need a I know it's the most used
phrase now, isn't it, in a

372
00:21:08,280 --> 00:21:10,440
different way, but you need a
pattern interrupt. That's what

373
00:21:10,440 --> 00:21:13,860
pattern interrupt really means.
It's interrupting your pattern

374
00:21:13,860 --> 00:21:18,300
of what you're doing things in.
So take that step back, review

375
00:21:18,300 --> 00:21:21,140
your script, listen to your
call. What can you throw

376
00:21:21,140 --> 00:21:24,560
overboard? We find the monotony
tends to lead to over

377
00:21:24,560 --> 00:21:31,280
complication, to less interest,
to take a step back, strip it

378
00:21:31,280 --> 00:21:34,340
back to the basics. Go to
absolute bare minimum in your

379
00:21:34,340 --> 00:21:36,740
calls, take a bit of time off.

380
00:21:37,820 --> 00:21:42,880
I think they take a bit of time
interesting. I know. So I think

381
00:21:42,880 --> 00:21:47,320
I've managed salespeople for
about eight years. I don't think

382
00:21:47,320 --> 00:21:50,500
I've ever sort of been conscious
of them taking like just except

383
00:21:50,560 --> 00:21:53,860
holidays never declined a
holiday as it comes in. But I

384
00:21:53,860 --> 00:21:56,140
don't think I've ever thought,
oh, when's the last time you had

385
00:21:56,140 --> 00:21:59,560
a holiday? I don't think that's
ever entered my mind. And that's

386
00:21:59,560 --> 00:22:01,380
that's really eye opening? Well,
we

387
00:22:01,920 --> 00:22:04,680
you just go online. We live in
this hustle culture, don't we?

388
00:22:04,740 --> 00:22:08,460
Yeah, that's 10x hustle. You
know, time offs for wimps and

389
00:22:08,460 --> 00:22:09,120
all this lot.

390
00:22:10,560 --> 00:22:12,660
Well, that's changing now,
though, it

391
00:22:12,660 --> 00:22:15,600
really is, and I'm glad about
that, but it is. You're running

392
00:22:15,600 --> 00:22:19,440
at 50% so first thing I'd look
at is, do you take time out? Do

393
00:22:19,440 --> 00:22:22,280
you chill out? Because if your
brain focuses on one thing for

394
00:22:22,280 --> 00:22:26,900
so long, you become blind to
that one thing. What you need to

395
00:22:26,900 --> 00:22:29,720
do, take that bit of time out,
take the step back, review your

396
00:22:29,720 --> 00:22:33,680
calls, shake it off, and then
simplify everything. Throw

397
00:22:33,680 --> 00:22:36,740
everything overboard. Take it
back to the bare bones of your

398
00:22:36,740 --> 00:22:40,720
job and the bits that are
enjoyable and almost like a

399
00:22:40,720 --> 00:22:44,860
fresh start with it. But there
is also a shelf life to an SDR,

400
00:22:45,880 --> 00:22:49,060
the just is, we know this,
there's a shelf life within a

401
00:22:49,060 --> 00:22:53,380
company to an SDR, what do you
think a shelf life is? Varies

402
00:22:53,380 --> 00:22:58,720
from SDR to SDR, I get that, but
it's very rare. You see somebody

403
00:22:58,720 --> 00:23:01,500
smashing the numbers inside out
non stop for more than three

404
00:23:01,500 --> 00:23:02,700
years, and it won't. And

405
00:23:03,540 --> 00:23:06,540
I'm guessing, when you speak
with managers that have this

406
00:23:06,540 --> 00:23:09,480
problem, that's the advice you
give to managers on how to help

407
00:23:09,480 --> 00:23:12,900
their SDRs break this monotony
and keep going. Well,

408
00:23:13,560 --> 00:23:17,220
the first advice I'd give to
managers is what conversation

409
00:23:17,220 --> 00:23:19,740
you've already had with them.
And it's amazing how many

410
00:23:19,800 --> 00:23:21,920
haven't even had the
conversation, they've just

411
00:23:21,920 --> 00:23:26,960
guessed at what the problem
might be. Or they don't see it

412
00:23:26,960 --> 00:23:30,860
as burnout. They don't see it as
monotony. They see it as oh

413
00:23:30,920 --> 00:23:35,480
well, they're lazy, or I need
them to have more passion. And

414
00:23:35,600 --> 00:23:39,380
it all comes from somewhere,
doesn't it? Nobody. And here's

415
00:23:39,380 --> 00:23:41,440
the thing, this is what I do say
to managers straight away,

416
00:23:41,740 --> 00:23:45,100
nobody went to get a sales job,
went through the interview

417
00:23:45,100 --> 00:23:49,120
process, decided to take this
challenge on, and on the first

418
00:23:49,120 --> 00:23:51,340
day, thought, you know they're
making the sandwiches and

419
00:23:51,340 --> 00:23:53,620
they're ironing the tie or
whatever it is, and they think,

420
00:23:53,620 --> 00:23:56,680
you know what, I'm going to go
this sales job. I'm going to be

421
00:23:56,680 --> 00:24:01,080
shit. Nobody went into sales
with that. Everybody has gone to

422
00:24:01,080 --> 00:24:03,780
a sales job thinking, I'm going
to wear money, I'm going to be

423
00:24:03,780 --> 00:24:06,600
really good, I'm going to get
loads of sales this is going to

424
00:24:06,600 --> 00:24:09,840
be great. Nobody intentionally
gets a sales job and wants to be

425
00:24:09,840 --> 00:24:13,380
shipped. Something has happened
along the way, and that is

426
00:24:13,380 --> 00:24:17,580
either they've not been coached,
supported, trained, managed, or

427
00:24:18,540 --> 00:24:21,800
it's not for them. Some people
aren't going out for it, but

428
00:24:21,800 --> 00:24:24,740
this has to be recognized and
dealt with sooner, rather than

429
00:24:24,740 --> 00:24:26,060
later. So what are

430
00:24:26,060 --> 00:24:29,540
the telltale signs that a
manager can look for to

431
00:24:29,540 --> 00:24:32,540
proactively spot this before
it's too

432
00:24:32,660 --> 00:24:38,300
late. Activity levels starting
to drop. Call length starting to

433
00:24:38,300 --> 00:24:42,040
drop, was a huge red flag for
me. You know, call volumes gone

434
00:24:42,040 --> 00:24:46,360
up, but call length, average
call length has got down. That

435
00:24:46,360 --> 00:24:50,260
means they're going, I ever
next? They've just lost that

436
00:24:50,320 --> 00:24:53,860
thing. So the the call rates
going up, but their average call

437
00:24:53,860 --> 00:24:57,640
length is going down. It's
amazing. I hate KPIs, because

438
00:24:57,640 --> 00:24:59,920
people manage with them, which
is a dreadful way to manage.

439
00:25:00,000 --> 00:25:05,280
People, but as a trainer, maths
doesn't lie, and you can spot

440
00:25:05,280 --> 00:25:07,800
patterns and where people are
challenged by that. So if I'm

441
00:25:07,800 --> 00:25:10,680
seeing somebody's making 150
dials a day, and their average

442
00:25:10,680 --> 00:25:14,340
call length is a minute and a
half, but they're not brand new,

443
00:25:14,940 --> 00:25:18,240
and there's a there's a decline
in that, right? They've hit that

444
00:25:18,240 --> 00:25:20,040
point where they're just bored.
They're going through the

445
00:25:20,040 --> 00:25:22,100
motions. They're not engaging,
they're not trying. Have they

446
00:25:23,000 --> 00:25:25,400
come close to burnout on that,
or have to come close to that

447
00:25:25,400 --> 00:25:26,420
monotonous cycle?

448
00:25:27,260 --> 00:25:30,380
Fascinating. I agree with you on
the KPIs, but I can see why.

449
00:25:30,380 --> 00:25:33,740
Like you say, the math doesn't
lie, and it helps you figure out

450
00:25:33,740 --> 00:25:36,200
where to spend your time, to dig
deeper. You just can't make a

451
00:25:36,200 --> 00:25:36,920
decision at that.

452
00:25:37,400 --> 00:25:40,840
Don't manage people with KPIs.
Yeah, coach and support people

453
00:25:40,840 --> 00:25:44,020
with KPIs. You know, first thing
I'll look at when I go and meet

454
00:25:44,020 --> 00:25:49,420
a team. So here's, here's Sharon
his call stats that they've got

455
00:25:49,420 --> 00:25:51,700
from whatever system that
they're using, if I can look at

456
00:25:51,700 --> 00:25:56,080
right? They've done 60 calls
today. Their average call length

457
00:25:56,080 --> 00:25:59,500
is five and a half minutes. But
they haven't booked a single

458
00:25:59,500 --> 00:26:01,800
qualified meeting. Well, they
haven't got a problem saying

459
00:26:01,800 --> 00:26:04,440
hello, starting a call, having a
conversation, getting past early

460
00:26:04,440 --> 00:26:07,740
objections, wherever there's
something going wrong at the end

461
00:26:07,740 --> 00:26:10,680
of those conversations, because
nothing's coming out of them. I

462
00:26:10,680 --> 00:26:12,900
can spot that just from the
maths, before I've even met

463
00:26:12,900 --> 00:26:17,460
Sharon, or here's Sharon. She's
done 180 dials today, and her

464
00:26:17,460 --> 00:26:20,840
average call length is 28
seconds, right? You're not

465
00:26:20,840 --> 00:26:23,480
getting anywhere near a
conversation. Let's look at your

466
00:26:23,540 --> 00:26:27,020
call list, your sheet, your
messaging, your voice tone, your

467
00:26:27,020 --> 00:26:29,420
how you're opening the call up.
Could do that before we've even

468
00:26:29,420 --> 00:26:32,720
listened to a call, yeah, but
that is not management. That's

469
00:26:32,720 --> 00:26:34,280
coaching and development and

470
00:26:34,400 --> 00:26:36,980
support. It's using the data to
find the clues where to spend

471
00:26:36,980 --> 00:26:40,240
your time. Exactly the clues are
either. So here's what, here's

472
00:26:40,240 --> 00:26:44,140
what I want to focus on now,
leading training and coaching

473
00:26:44,200 --> 00:26:47,740
sales teams. Yeah, let's look at
it. First of all, from

474
00:26:47,740 --> 00:26:51,220
inheriting a thing. So you you
inherited sales teams a couple

475
00:26:51,220 --> 00:26:52,660
of times, by the looks of it,

476
00:26:52,660 --> 00:26:55,660
yeah, it's all. We've built them
around me or whatever, but I've

477
00:26:55,660 --> 00:26:57,520
had sales teams. Yeah. What
advice

478
00:26:57,520 --> 00:27:01,140
would you give to someone that's
about to inherit a sales team.

479
00:27:01,320 --> 00:27:01,740
Straight

480
00:27:01,740 --> 00:27:05,700
advice is put your ego in the
bin. And this is the thing.

481
00:27:06,060 --> 00:27:08,400
Quite often people have
inherited a sales team because

482
00:27:08,400 --> 00:27:11,700
they're a good seller, which is
no reason to give somebody a

483
00:27:11,700 --> 00:27:15,960
sales team, because it's almost
the opposite skill set that you

484
00:27:15,960 --> 00:27:20,960
need. So one put your ego in the
bin. You're now a leader. This

485
00:27:20,960 --> 00:27:25,280
is not about you at all. Yes,
you might have been good, but it

486
00:27:25,280 --> 00:27:27,800
doesn't mean you can tell
people. Well, what I did was, if

487
00:27:27,800 --> 00:27:30,620
I were you, I'd that's the last
thing people want. So one, you

488
00:27:30,620 --> 00:27:32,900
got to put your ego in the bin.
It's not about you. Two, you're

489
00:27:32,900 --> 00:27:35,120
probably going to make less
money than the people sat in

490
00:27:35,120 --> 00:27:37,580
front of you. Good. If you're
helping them make loads of

491
00:27:37,580 --> 00:27:40,840
money, you're being a good
leader. Yeah, you'll, you'll get

492
00:27:40,840 --> 00:27:45,580
your benefit at some point. Next
point I make, don't do anything

493
00:27:46,000 --> 00:27:49,660
when you start. So many people
go into a leadership position.

494
00:27:49,660 --> 00:27:51,880
They want to put their stamp on
it, don't they? This is how a

495
00:27:51,880 --> 00:27:53,800
lead. We're going to change
this. We're going to do that

496
00:27:53,800 --> 00:27:58,780
differently from now on. Stop
observe, get to know your team

497
00:27:58,780 --> 00:28:01,320
first. What's going right?
What's going wrong? Who are the

498
00:28:01,320 --> 00:28:06,420
different characters in there?
Just take a period of time to

499
00:28:06,420 --> 00:28:08,340
observe and reflect. Great

500
00:28:08,340 --> 00:28:12,840
advice. Give me a mistake you've
made when you've started

501
00:28:12,840 --> 00:28:14,640
managing a sales team that
you've inherited.

502
00:28:16,620 --> 00:28:20,600
You know what? Really, honestly,
I've loved the attention and the

503
00:28:20,600 --> 00:28:25,160
title and all the stuff that
goes with it. It's, it's ego

504
00:28:25,160 --> 00:28:35,480
led, yeah, and I've, I've tried
to lead before now by telling

505
00:28:35,480 --> 00:28:40,840
people what to do. I've tried to
lead by just do it my way. Trust

506
00:28:40,840 --> 00:28:47,020
me, I was really good at this.
I've led by incentive,

507
00:28:47,800 --> 00:28:52,780
ridiculous incentive, which
doesn't work. I've led by do

508
00:28:52,780 --> 00:28:56,380
this, or I'll shout, you know,
I've made every embarrassing

509
00:28:56,380 --> 00:29:01,080
mistake in the book. Why?
Because it's probably how I was

510
00:29:01,080 --> 00:29:05,100
led. This is where we see sales
leaders come in. Is you lead,

511
00:29:05,280 --> 00:29:09,540
how you were led? And my first,
in any way, sales leadership

512
00:29:09,540 --> 00:29:15,420
role I came out of, in
hindsight, a very masculine Wolf

513
00:29:15,420 --> 00:29:19,860
of Wall Street Style, scream if
you want to go faster culture.

514
00:29:20,160 --> 00:29:22,220
That was how I was led. You
know, I was brought up with

515
00:29:22,220 --> 00:29:25,700
buyers or liars close them or
they close you, either way a

516
00:29:25,700 --> 00:29:30,380
sale is made. Give us a date, an
expiry date, and it was all

517
00:29:30,380 --> 00:29:34,280
banging fists on the tables and
all this real macho sort of

518
00:29:34,280 --> 00:29:39,500
culture. So that's how I led. I
cringe looking back at how I

519
00:29:39,500 --> 00:29:43,240
used to act with people. Why?
Because it made me feel better

520
00:29:43,240 --> 00:29:47,920
about myself. It made me feel
important. What a Biff, What a

521
00:29:47,920 --> 00:29:51,040
dreadful way of looking at
things. Yeah, when you look at

522
00:29:51,040 --> 00:29:53,620
all the best leaders you've had,
and this is one of the stories,

523
00:29:53,620 --> 00:29:56,260
one of the questions asked at
beginning of a lot of training

524
00:29:56,260 --> 00:29:58,480
when we're talking about sales
leadership, isn't, name your

525
00:29:58,480 --> 00:30:01,200
best leader, name your best
manager. Name your favorite

526
00:30:01,200 --> 00:30:04,680
teacher. Everybody's got a
favorite teacher, haven't they?

527
00:30:04,800 --> 00:30:06,540
Who's your favorite teacher?
Mark? Can you

528
00:30:07,320 --> 00:30:11,880
remember? So I probably go back
to I think about this person a

529
00:30:11,880 --> 00:30:15,120
lot. Actually. It's weird to ask
that his name was Mr. Brace I

530
00:30:15,120 --> 00:30:19,440
think it was in year four. So
long, long, long time ago. Yeah,

531
00:30:19,440 --> 00:30:22,700
but I remember Mr. Braceford
more than most teachers, primary

532
00:30:22,700 --> 00:30:23,840
school teacher, obviously. What

533
00:30:23,840 --> 00:30:27,440
is it about Mr. Braceford that
stands out to I

534
00:30:27,440 --> 00:30:33,560
felt like he was I felt like he
was a big champion for me. So I

535
00:30:33,560 --> 00:30:39,200
was the youngest in the class.
July, baby birthdays tomorrow. I

536
00:30:39,200 --> 00:30:43,600
was the youngest in the class. I
I wasn't very bright at that

537
00:30:43,600 --> 00:30:46,660
age. Obviously, it's an easy
joke to be made about not being

538
00:30:46,660 --> 00:30:50,200
that bright now, but we won't go
there. I remember there was just

539
00:30:50,260 --> 00:30:54,340
certain things I struggled with,
like, like spelling longer

540
00:30:54,340 --> 00:30:57,880
words, reading out loud to the
class, but I always felt like he

541
00:30:57,880 --> 00:31:02,040
put his arm around me, Tom was
gonna be okay. Always fed back

542
00:31:02,040 --> 00:31:04,980
to my parents that, you know,
look, he's struggling with this,

543
00:31:04,980 --> 00:31:09,300
but he's trying really hard. I
believe in Mark, I remember once

544
00:31:09,300 --> 00:31:13,740
in particular, it was a really,
like daunting experience. We had

545
00:31:13,740 --> 00:31:17,100
to write an address like you
would in the letter. And if you

546
00:31:17,100 --> 00:31:20,420
think like the way the address,
it kind of goes in dense and in,

547
00:31:20,480 --> 00:31:23,480
right? And he had it on the
board, and he said, I want

548
00:31:23,480 --> 00:31:27,740
everybody to write this address
on a shit paper exactly how you

549
00:31:27,740 --> 00:31:31,820
sit on the board. And I remember
kids didn't do it exactly how it

550
00:31:31,820 --> 00:31:34,400
was on the board. They kind of
wrote it straight so, you know,

551
00:31:34,880 --> 00:31:37,340
first name, address, all in a
straight line. And he walked

552
00:31:37,340 --> 00:31:40,420
around and he just started
going, wrong. Start again,

553
00:31:40,420 --> 00:31:43,840
wrong, start, again, wrong,
start. And I remember like just

554
00:31:43,840 --> 00:31:47,320
every time he said wrong, he was
coming towards my desk, and I

555
00:31:47,320 --> 00:31:50,620
thought, I've not done it
perfectly. Mine's not quite

556
00:31:50,740 --> 00:31:54,880
indented. And he went over. He
went nice effort mark. And I

557
00:31:54,880 --> 00:31:58,660
remember thinking he's let me
off there. It was just something

558
00:31:58,660 --> 00:32:02,580
in that moment. So, yeah, like,
I just felt like he he's looked

559
00:32:02,580 --> 00:32:06,240
after me there, he helps me out,
he supports, encourages me, etc.

560
00:32:06,240 --> 00:32:07,980
So, yeah, I'd say Mr. Braced.

561
00:32:08,340 --> 00:32:13,320
Well, two things here. Then one,
if Mr. Brace is still alive,

562
00:32:13,320 --> 00:32:15,840
do you know what I'd love to
find? I just know how to spell

563
00:32:15,840 --> 00:32:17,160
that last name. I'm still not
very

564
00:32:17,160 --> 00:32:19,440
good at spelling. Have you gone
and told him I wouldn't know how

565
00:32:19,440 --> 00:32:21,920
to find it? One Amazing Thing to
hear of somebody, by the way,

566
00:32:21,920 --> 00:32:25,460
you made a massive impact on my
life. Yeah, let's do that. The

567
00:32:25,460 --> 00:32:28,640
second thing is, you championed
you. Yeah? He gave you great

568
00:32:28,640 --> 00:32:32,060
feedback, and he made you he lit
up the room for you one day.

569
00:32:32,060 --> 00:32:34,220
Yeah. Wasn't that what a great
leader does? Yeah. So when

570
00:32:34,220 --> 00:32:36,980
people are looking at wanting to
be a sales leader, especially

571
00:32:37,760 --> 00:32:40,960
various simplest exercises,
who's your favorite teacher? Why

572
00:32:41,320 --> 00:32:44,800
do that? Because they're the
earliest leaders in our life.

573
00:32:44,800 --> 00:32:48,820
They form a lot of ideas about
great leadership without us

574
00:32:48,820 --> 00:32:52,240
realizing it. Whereas we think
of sales leadership as get sales

575
00:32:52,240 --> 00:32:57,880
results, get the numbers in KPIs
reports, it's not at all. It's

576
00:32:57,880 --> 00:33:01,140
you are there to help those
people in front of you be the

577
00:33:01,140 --> 00:33:05,700
best that they can be at their
job. It's all about them. When I

578
00:33:05,700 --> 00:33:08,580
look back to my earliest days of
sales leadership and team

579
00:33:08,580 --> 00:33:12,300
leadership and everything, it
was all about me. And I

580
00:33:12,300 --> 00:33:16,440
absolutely cringe. I remember
one day putting up, printing out

581
00:33:16,440 --> 00:33:22,100
the day before call times and
sellotaping them to the walls of

582
00:33:22,100 --> 00:33:26,780
the office, to name and shame
people. What a dick. But you

583
00:33:26,780 --> 00:33:29,300
were given a senior job, a
leadership job with zero

584
00:33:29,300 --> 00:33:32,060
training, zero accountability,
zero coaching. You were good at

585
00:33:32,060 --> 00:33:34,700
doing that. Do this. Of course,
it falls apart.

586
00:33:34,940 --> 00:33:37,760
I talk about this all the time,
like that. You're great at

587
00:33:37,760 --> 00:33:41,020
sales. You get promoted, but you
don't get the support in being a

588
00:33:41,020 --> 00:33:43,900
great leader. So it is that do
what I did, because that's what,

589
00:33:43,900 --> 00:33:47,860
you know. How did you make that
switch from being your own

590
00:33:47,860 --> 00:33:51,460
words, bit of a dick here and
there, making those mistakes to

591
00:33:51,460 --> 00:33:54,040
get it right? How did you make
that switch?

592
00:33:54,400 --> 00:33:57,040
You know what? There's, there's
a time that really stands out in

593
00:33:57,040 --> 00:34:00,240
my mind. We went, I took, at the
time I was, had a head of sales

594
00:34:00,240 --> 00:34:04,440
training for when I say B to
part of bt. Bt is a massive

595
00:34:04,440 --> 00:34:09,900
beast. Yeah. So it was web
clicks, advertising, online

596
00:34:09,900 --> 00:34:14,700
advertising, SEO, all that sort
of thing, B to B and I took some

597
00:34:14,700 --> 00:34:19,500
of the sales team to an external
trainer that the bigwigs had

598
00:34:19,500 --> 00:34:23,480
brought in who were going to
teach us how to coach, and it

599
00:34:23,480 --> 00:34:28,220
was just a dreadful day. So I
was in there with this team of

600
00:34:28,220 --> 00:34:34,580
people. This girl came in very
pleasant, but things that stand

601
00:34:34,580 --> 00:34:37,640
out, she is mad in it. She had
no shoes and socks on, and she

602
00:34:37,640 --> 00:34:42,340
sat there with smelly feet in
this room, and I could see my

603
00:34:42,340 --> 00:34:45,100
team were going, what? What's
going on? Like, you know? So

604
00:34:45,100 --> 00:34:48,040
she's lost the room already.
Then she spent the first half

605
00:34:48,040 --> 00:34:51,700
hour just talking about herself
and her IB for holiday. And then

606
00:34:51,700 --> 00:34:54,820
she get really condescending,
and everything my team would

607
00:34:54,820 --> 00:34:57,220
bring up about how we do a sales
approach, how we do whatever.

608
00:34:57,940 --> 00:35:00,900
Oh, no, you don't do that.
Really. And she was losing the

609
00:35:00,900 --> 00:35:06,000
team really badly. And we got to
one point where I took this

610
00:35:06,000 --> 00:35:08,340
trainer to one side, and I said,
I'm really sorry. I'm taking my

611
00:35:08,340 --> 00:35:10,860
team out of her. And I didn't
know, I suddenly felt quite

612
00:35:10,860 --> 00:35:13,680
paternal towards them. I
remember saying, we're going,

613
00:35:13,860 --> 00:35:16,920
we're not we don't have to. It's
a waste of our time. We don't

614
00:35:16,920 --> 00:35:18,900
need this. You don't have to be
spoken to like that. We're

615
00:35:18,900 --> 00:35:24,080
going. And I suddenly felt that
felt right. That was the right

616
00:35:24,080 --> 00:35:27,440
thing. And you know when things
just click in your head and I

617
00:35:27,440 --> 00:35:31,340
was I need to be more paternal
towards them. I need to put them

618
00:35:31,340 --> 00:35:35,360
first. I need to have the
wherewithal and the freedom to

619
00:35:35,360 --> 00:35:37,820
go, No, this is my team. This is
what's going to be best for

620
00:35:37,820 --> 00:35:41,380
them. Everybody above me. You've
put me in this position to lead

621
00:35:41,380 --> 00:35:44,920
them. Well, leave me to it, give
me some feedback. And I took

622
00:35:44,920 --> 00:35:49,300
them out, and I wrote a very
politically worded email about

623
00:35:49,300 --> 00:35:52,900
why we'd done that, and the
feedback I got was absolutely

624
00:35:52,900 --> 00:35:56,740
the right move. Very well on
like you showed leadership. And

625
00:35:56,740 --> 00:36:01,920
I was like, right, I kind of get
it now it's not about me, and it

626
00:36:01,920 --> 00:36:03,300
kind of built up from there.

627
00:36:03,780 --> 00:36:07,740
How easy is it for you when you
work with sales leaders? Because

628
00:36:07,740 --> 00:36:11,280
typically when a sales team is
underperforming, yeah, I look to

629
00:36:11,280 --> 00:36:15,120
the sales straight away. Yeah.
How do you help them go on that

630
00:36:15,120 --> 00:36:19,560
journey from realizing that and
actually changing because it's

631
00:36:19,560 --> 00:36:22,460
not their fault. They've been
put in that position because of

632
00:36:22,460 --> 00:36:26,600
their ability to sell, but now
they need to change. How do you

633
00:36:26,600 --> 00:36:30,620
work with them, to change the
way in which they approach their

634
00:36:30,620 --> 00:36:32,480
job to get the best out their
team?

635
00:36:32,780 --> 00:36:35,600
Yeah, it's a challenge, isn't
it? So here to build the first

636
00:36:35,600 --> 00:36:38,360
challenge is she's really the
sales leader that's involved in

637
00:36:38,360 --> 00:36:41,800
the decision to bring you in in
the first place. Oh, yeah. And

638
00:36:41,860 --> 00:36:45,400
how I operate is, I'm going to
find out what your problem is

639
00:36:45,400 --> 00:36:49,540
first, and then design and build
training to solve that problem,

640
00:36:49,840 --> 00:36:52,960
not just here's a course on this
that's pointless. And quite

641
00:36:52,960 --> 00:36:55,780
often we find out your sales
team are actually quite good.

642
00:36:56,560 --> 00:36:59,200
They're just not being led
particularly well, and you've

643
00:36:59,200 --> 00:37:01,900
got to be careful with that
conversation. So the first thing

644
00:37:01,900 --> 00:37:04,140
we look at is, and the first
look at is and the first bit of

645
00:37:04,140 --> 00:37:06,360
discovery we do is tell me about
how often you give them

646
00:37:06,360 --> 00:37:08,460
feedback, how often do they
review their own meetings, their

647
00:37:08,460 --> 00:37:10,620
own calls. Show me their action
plans that they've got. What are

648
00:37:10,620 --> 00:37:14,280
they each working on personally?
Right now, none of that can be

649
00:37:14,700 --> 00:37:18,120
delivered. All right. Tell me
more about that. Has that ever

650
00:37:18,120 --> 00:37:21,200
been in place? Tell me about how
you get led. How do you get

651
00:37:21,200 --> 00:37:23,840
coached? When do you get
feedback as a leader? And we

652
00:37:23,840 --> 00:37:26,420
just try and bring this
consciousness up of, oh, there's

653
00:37:26,420 --> 00:37:30,860
this whole layer of support
missing right now. And then. The

654
00:37:30,860 --> 00:37:34,580
second part is, we will not sell
your training if you don't take

655
00:37:34,580 --> 00:37:39,500
follow on coaching. We've got to
embed it or a program for that

656
00:37:39,500 --> 00:37:41,380
company to embed the training
afterwards.

657
00:37:41,620 --> 00:37:44,500
So I think I know the answer,
because I'm with you. Stand

658
00:37:44,500 --> 00:37:47,620
Alone training doesn't work. No,
you need to follow on coaching.

659
00:37:47,980 --> 00:37:52,960
But how are you absolutely
strict? As you will not sell or

660
00:37:52,960 --> 00:37:55,300
stand off training no matter
what the circumstance without

661
00:37:55,300 --> 00:37:56,080
the follow on coaching?

662
00:37:56,140 --> 00:37:59,380
No, because you can operate a
business like that, right? We

663
00:37:59,380 --> 00:38:01,860
will say, Here's your follow on
coach options. This is why you

664
00:38:01,860 --> 00:38:05,160
have it. What we are strict on,
though, and we very openly say,

665
00:38:05,460 --> 00:38:09,780
if you just buy a one off half
day course to solve a big

666
00:38:09,780 --> 00:38:13,860
problem, keep your money to
stick in plaster. It just

667
00:38:13,860 --> 00:38:17,940
doesn't work. Because if it did,
why wouldn't you spend 50 quid

668
00:38:17,940 --> 00:38:21,020
on Amazon, buy everybody a book
and hope they read it? Because

669
00:38:21,020 --> 00:38:22,880
all you're doing is hoping
they're going to use the

670
00:38:22,880 --> 00:38:26,480
training. It's exactly the same
thing. What we hear is, Well, if

671
00:38:26,480 --> 00:38:29,780
we could just do a course on
this, everything will be fine.

672
00:38:29,780 --> 00:38:32,300
No, it wouldn't, because that's
just not how it works. How are

673
00:38:32,300 --> 00:38:34,580
you going to embed it? How are
you going to follow it on? How

674
00:38:34,580 --> 00:38:36,740
are you going to do this? Now,
if they want to do it, that's

675
00:38:36,740 --> 00:38:38,840
fine. You know, we're a
business. At the end of the day,

676
00:38:38,840 --> 00:38:42,220
we'll sell the training, but we
will sell it with the open eyes.

677
00:38:42,280 --> 00:38:43,720
We'll tell you right now, this
won't work.

678
00:38:43,780 --> 00:38:46,660
I think the problem there. And
tell me if you think I've got

679
00:38:46,660 --> 00:38:50,200
this wrong, but the sales leader
just lives too much in a month

680
00:38:50,200 --> 00:38:53,980
to month, quarter to quarter
cycle of what can we do to get a

681
00:38:53,980 --> 00:38:57,280
quick win, to get a quick fix?
They're not thinking, right?

682
00:38:58,180 --> 00:39:01,020
Let's grow our people, because
we are going to get off this

683
00:39:01,020 --> 00:39:04,440
hamster wheel every month, every
quarter being a slog. Let's grow

684
00:39:04,440 --> 00:39:09,600
our people. It might not have a
massive impact immediately, but

685
00:39:09,600 --> 00:39:13,920
it will change the game 612,
months time, but that's just too

686
00:39:13,920 --> 00:39:17,520
far away, and we live to this
target on a monthly, quarterly

687
00:39:17,520 --> 00:39:22,520
basis. And they go for the quick
fixes. I often see sales leaders

688
00:39:22,520 --> 00:39:25,580
when they opt for growing the
people, the people that they

689
00:39:25,580 --> 00:39:31,460
tell me aren't good enough, they
lack XYZ skills, or give them

690
00:39:31,460 --> 00:39:35,120
more leads. They go for more
leads because they think, well,

691
00:39:35,120 --> 00:39:38,840
just quickly, there's more
volume. And I always say, but

692
00:39:38,840 --> 00:39:42,880
you're just giving people that
ill equipped more things to muck

693
00:39:42,880 --> 00:39:43,420
up with.

694
00:39:44,260 --> 00:39:44,560
Yeah.

695
00:39:44,740 --> 00:39:47,560
How often do you walk away from
a deal because you just get a

696
00:39:47,560 --> 00:39:50,020
feeling from the manager? This
is a waste of time. They're the

697
00:39:50,020 --> 00:39:50,440
problem.

698
00:39:50,740 --> 00:39:53,260
Oh, yeah. And there's red flags
that over the last 13 years,

699
00:39:53,260 --> 00:39:56,200
I've started to spot straight
away. Here's a big red flag, and

700
00:39:56,200 --> 00:39:58,780
without shooting myself in the
foot for business, when HR

701
00:39:58,780 --> 00:40:01,500
contacts me about trading.
Right? And the verse, All right,

702
00:40:01,500 --> 00:40:04,200
what's made you first think that
you need to invest in training?

703
00:40:04,620 --> 00:40:08,160
I've been asked to find some
training, right? This is a tick

704
00:40:08,160 --> 00:40:12,900
box exercise, isn't it? So HR
can say we've done training, and

705
00:40:12,900 --> 00:40:17,280
it's short termism, and I get
it. Amount of people that that

706
00:40:17,340 --> 00:40:20,720
will get inbound, looking for
training, right? Well, we don't,

707
00:40:20,720 --> 00:40:23,120
we can't really take everybody
out for half a day. Well, if

708
00:40:23,120 --> 00:40:27,140
your business model can't
survive when you invest in your

709
00:40:27,140 --> 00:40:30,920
team for half a day, there's a
much bigger challenge going on

710
00:40:30,920 --> 00:40:33,260
here, isn't there? There's a
much bigger problem going on

711
00:40:33,260 --> 00:40:37,340
here, that if you can't take the
team out for just half a day to

712
00:40:37,340 --> 00:40:40,900
do long term investment and
develop them, then we need to

713
00:40:40,900 --> 00:40:43,660
dig a lot deeper on that. And
yes, there is a cost to a

714
00:40:43,660 --> 00:40:46,360
business on taking people out to
train them, but all that says to

715
00:40:46,360 --> 00:40:49,000
me is, you don't really believe
in the power of the training.

716
00:40:49,180 --> 00:40:52,540
Let's talk about training and
coaching. First of all, I feel

717
00:40:52,540 --> 00:40:55,180
like I have a very clear,
distinct definition of the

718
00:40:55,180 --> 00:40:58,660
difference, yeah, but I want to
hear your definition of what

719
00:40:58,660 --> 00:41:01,080
difference for you between
training and coaching.

720
00:41:01,980 --> 00:41:04,200
I've often tried to sum this up.
I heard, I don't know who said

721
00:41:04,200 --> 00:41:06,300
it, so if I'm stealing
somebody's quote, I apologize.

722
00:41:06,300 --> 00:41:09,000
It definitely wasn't me.
Training is answering somebody's

723
00:41:09,000 --> 00:41:11,760
questions. Coaching is
questioning somebody's answers.

724
00:41:12,900 --> 00:41:16,380
Nice. This is clear definition
for me. Training is taking some

725
00:41:16,380 --> 00:41:19,080
people that need some new skills
and helping them develop those

726
00:41:19,080 --> 00:41:21,860
skills and showing them for the
first time, coaching is

727
00:41:21,860 --> 00:41:23,960
questioning somebody so they
come up with the answer

728
00:41:23,960 --> 00:41:29,060
themselves. So it's more long
term, it's embedded. It's making

729
00:41:29,060 --> 00:41:32,240
them realize, actually, you
can't do this already. It's just

730
00:41:32,240 --> 00:41:33,020
getting out of them.

731
00:41:33,680 --> 00:41:37,520
So let's imagine we are a sales
manager. We've got that team,

732
00:41:37,640 --> 00:41:40,300
and they resonate with the
following. You know, every

733
00:41:40,300 --> 00:41:44,080
month, every quarter. It just
feels hard on what it should be.

734
00:41:44,140 --> 00:41:47,440
It's a bit of a slog. We
sometimes get there. We

735
00:41:47,440 --> 00:41:51,160
sometimes don't. Sometimes we
overachieve, but it hamster

736
00:41:51,160 --> 00:41:54,760
wheel. We know that we want to
change this. We need to grow the

737
00:41:54,760 --> 00:42:00,460
team, their confidence and
competence. What is the key to

738
00:42:00,460 --> 00:42:03,420
successfully training and
coaching a sales team.

739
00:42:04,560 --> 00:42:07,140
Million dollar question. If I
could answer it in a sentence,

740
00:42:07,140 --> 00:42:09,960
I'll be sat on a yacht doing
this interview right now. There

741
00:42:09,960 --> 00:42:14,220
is no silver bullet is one, so
let's strip that right back. You

742
00:42:14,220 --> 00:42:17,760
mentioned two things there,
competence and confidence. Yeah,

743
00:42:17,760 --> 00:42:20,900
let's put confidence in the bin.
Okay? It's a made up word.

744
00:42:21,500 --> 00:42:24,080
There's no such thing as a
confident person. We're just

745
00:42:24,080 --> 00:42:26,960
more or less confident in
different situations. So first

746
00:42:26,960 --> 00:42:30,020
of all, I wouldn't even consider
looking at the confidence piece.

747
00:42:30,380 --> 00:42:35,180
Confidence comes with feeling
comfortable knowing what you're

748
00:42:35,180 --> 00:42:39,260
doing. Yeah, Confidence comes
with being in a situation that

749
00:42:39,260 --> 00:42:42,280
you're confident in. So right
now we're in this fabulous

750
00:42:42,280 --> 00:42:44,980
studio that you build in this
great stuff. Say I was an

751
00:42:45,820 --> 00:42:49,480
unconfident person. I didn't
want to pick up the phone, I

752
00:42:49,480 --> 00:42:52,840
didn't want to ask deeper
questions. I didn't want to ask

753
00:42:52,840 --> 00:42:57,040
for a next step, because I'm not
confident. Suddenly, a tiger

754
00:42:57,040 --> 00:43:00,720
walked in this studio now, and I
was the only person to have seen

755
00:43:00,720 --> 00:43:05,340
it, I wouldn't go, well, I won't
mention that tiger, because I'm

756
00:43:05,340 --> 00:43:09,660
not very confident. I'd suddenly
go, there's a tiger. Yeah,

757
00:43:10,020 --> 00:43:12,420
everybody out suddenly. I'd be
really confident. Why the

758
00:43:12,420 --> 00:43:16,200
Situation's changed. Don't worry
about confidence. First, change

759
00:43:16,200 --> 00:43:19,080
the situation, and the
confidence comes. How do you

760
00:43:19,080 --> 00:43:22,160
change the situation where you
have to deal with the world as

761
00:43:22,160 --> 00:43:26,900
it is, not the world as you'd
like it to be. So first of all,

762
00:43:26,900 --> 00:43:30,020
you've got to put to one side,
what are your perceptions of

763
00:43:30,020 --> 00:43:33,080
what's going on and what's
actually going on? Because

764
00:43:33,080 --> 00:43:36,800
there's no point dealing in
perception. So point A What can

765
00:43:36,800 --> 00:43:42,220
you actually observe, not feel
or perceive or have an opinion

766
00:43:42,220 --> 00:43:46,600
on, and that means one record.
Are you listening to what's

767
00:43:46,660 --> 00:43:49,000
actually being going on? Have
you got your ear to the ground

768
00:43:49,000 --> 00:43:52,300
on what's being said and done?
Not the feedback on it. What's

769
00:43:52,420 --> 00:43:55,000
actually being said and done?
Are teams meetings being

770
00:43:55,000 --> 00:43:58,000
recorded? Are you on the road
with your team sitting, watching

771
00:43:58,000 --> 00:44:01,140
what's going on? Are you having
meetings about CRM and pipeline

772
00:44:01,140 --> 00:44:04,860
and questioning, okay, you've
put them at 80% tell me what's

773
00:44:04,860 --> 00:44:07,980
going on, why they're 80% Oh, we
got on really well. They had

774
00:44:07,980 --> 00:44:11,760
nice biscuits, right? This is
all perception. So rule one is

775
00:44:11,760 --> 00:44:14,760
you've got to deal with the
world as it is, not as you'd

776
00:44:14,760 --> 00:44:17,400
like it to be, and that means
you've got to either get the

777
00:44:17,400 --> 00:44:21,980
tech or find the way to observe
what's actually happening with

778
00:44:21,980 --> 00:44:25,580
your team, all training and
coaching has to start from that

779
00:44:25,580 --> 00:44:28,760
point, or you're just going to
end up in an echo chamber. I

780
00:44:28,760 --> 00:44:31,760
love that. One of the questions
I like to ask sales leaders when

781
00:44:31,760 --> 00:44:33,980
they when they tell me the
problems their sales team have,

782
00:44:34,040 --> 00:44:37,340
I like to say and just to
understand, do you think that to

783
00:44:37,340 --> 00:44:42,280
be true, or do you know that to
be true? And it's amazing. I

784
00:44:42,280 --> 00:44:45,700
think that's true. So one of the
challenges that I I hear from

785
00:44:45,700 --> 00:44:49,900
sales leaders is, let's move on
from they they've been promoted,

786
00:44:49,900 --> 00:44:52,840
and they're great sales rep, and
they lack knowing how to do it.

787
00:44:53,020 --> 00:44:57,280
But actually it's the challenge
of managing and training and

788
00:44:57,280 --> 00:45:00,420
coaching salespeople. So the
different personality. T's a

789
00:45:00,420 --> 00:45:03,900
different needs, a different
skills and competence gaps. You

790
00:45:03,900 --> 00:45:07,500
know, lots of the persons might
be similar in terms of level of

791
00:45:07,500 --> 00:45:11,220
ego, etc, but it is just, how do
I take let's just say the

792
00:45:11,220 --> 00:45:14,100
average person's got 10 in their
team, yeah, but it's two between

793
00:45:14,100 --> 00:45:19,260
eight and 12, right? Yeah. How
do they approach that? Lots of

794
00:45:19,260 --> 00:45:23,900
people just opt for the blanket
approach a man in a room, woman

795
00:45:23,900 --> 00:45:29,840
in a room, on Zoom, whatever
teaching the same thing doesn't

796
00:45:29,840 --> 00:45:32,180
work because of the different
needs the room, the different

797
00:45:32,180 --> 00:45:36,440
egos, different personalities.
How does a manager break that

798
00:45:36,440 --> 00:45:39,800
down and create a successful
training and coaching plan?

799
00:45:40,160 --> 00:45:43,480
It's a great question, because
you and we've said we said it

800
00:45:43,480 --> 00:45:45,880
before, and I know there's lots
of different iterations of it,

801
00:45:45,880 --> 00:45:48,760
isn't it, but managing a sales
team is, is trying to get cats

802
00:45:48,760 --> 00:45:52,000
in a basket. Well, the baskets
on fire, and you're in a bed of

803
00:45:52,000 --> 00:45:55,180
nettles and just a swarm of
wasps has just been released

804
00:45:55,180 --> 00:45:58,360
into the office. But it just
isn't, you know, we're just

805
00:45:58,360 --> 00:46:01,380
dealing with people here. So how
do you build it? Well, first of

806
00:46:01,380 --> 00:46:06,420
all, first question I ask in
most training situations, how do

807
00:46:06,420 --> 00:46:08,820
I benchmark it? I'm doing
observations, so I'll go right.

808
00:46:08,820 --> 00:46:12,660
Point A is, this is what I've
observed. Point B, what would a

809
00:46:12,660 --> 00:46:17,940
world class sales team do?
That's point B, the bit in the

810
00:46:17,940 --> 00:46:21,620
middle is what that training and
coaching program needs to be. So

811
00:46:21,620 --> 00:46:24,500
this is what we've observed. And
if you dotted everybody on a

812
00:46:24,500 --> 00:46:28,520
line, there are different places
on that line. But a is what's

813
00:46:28,520 --> 00:46:32,180
been observed, that is actually
happening now, and how different

814
00:46:32,180 --> 00:46:36,560
is everybody point B, we have to
agree, what would a world class

815
00:46:36,560 --> 00:46:40,160
sales team look like? What would
have to be different here to be

816
00:46:40,340 --> 00:46:43,060
at the other end of the line,
and then everybody, individually

817
00:46:43,060 --> 00:46:47,020
has got a different way to get
to be. So some might need really

818
00:46:47,020 --> 00:46:50,380
intensive one to one coaching.
Other people just need a nudge

819
00:46:50,380 --> 00:46:53,380
here and there. Some people just
need a wake up call. Here's a

820
00:46:53,380 --> 00:46:57,100
bomb. You could probably half
the size of your team. Some

821
00:46:57,100 --> 00:46:59,920
people shouldn't be there. It's
a really horrible thing for

822
00:46:59,920 --> 00:47:03,960
sales leaders to hear, but most
sales teams could get the same

823
00:47:03,960 --> 00:47:08,280
results on about 50% of their
account. How often

824
00:47:08,280 --> 00:47:10,620
do you recommend that case by
case basis? Isn't

825
00:47:10,620 --> 00:47:14,460
it? But isn't it amazing? You
see a lot of teams lose people

826
00:47:14,460 --> 00:47:17,820
and oh well, we'll just infill
for now, and nothing changes.

827
00:47:18,300 --> 00:47:21,860
Look at lockdown. How many
people got furloughed, and then

828
00:47:21,860 --> 00:47:24,500
sales leaders went, Well, you've
not actually been here for three

829
00:47:24,500 --> 00:47:28,520
months, and your sales results
haven't changed. What have you

830
00:47:28,520 --> 00:47:31,820
been doing? You know, a lot of
people got found out that way.

831
00:47:32,540 --> 00:47:35,120
And I know that's a really harsh
message, but it's, it's a fair

832
00:47:35,120 --> 00:47:38,060
message. Really see what's going
on. Talk

833
00:47:38,060 --> 00:47:43,000
to you about the lone wolves,
the sales reps that do things

834
00:47:43,000 --> 00:47:48,880
their own way are often here.
Managers describe those people

835
00:47:48,880 --> 00:47:51,640
in the team, and they don't know
what to do with them, right?

836
00:47:51,640 --> 00:47:54,700
They say, don't think they
respond well to training and

837
00:47:54,700 --> 00:47:58,120
coaching. They're they're sort
of hitting their number here and

838
00:47:58,120 --> 00:48:00,840
there. But equally, they're
vulnerable, because they could

839
00:48:00,840 --> 00:48:04,380
just leave at any point and they
rely on them, etc. What would

840
00:48:04,380 --> 00:48:08,520
you say to a manager, how to get
the best out of that person and

841
00:48:08,520 --> 00:48:10,140
train and coach them and work
with them?

842
00:48:10,140 --> 00:48:14,580
Lone wolves. I love lone wolves.
I love seeing what makes them

843
00:48:14,580 --> 00:48:17,820
tick. It's usually a defense
mechanism that's making a lone

844
00:48:17,820 --> 00:48:21,140
wolf tick. They're terrified of
being found out, or they've put

845
00:48:21,140 --> 00:48:25,580
this ego up as a helmet against
what could come in. They could

846
00:48:25,580 --> 00:48:28,520
find other than all very good
you have some lone wolves. And

847
00:48:28,520 --> 00:48:30,680
we all know these people. You
never see them. You never hear

848
00:48:30,680 --> 00:48:32,960
them on the phone. You never
know whether they're out meeting

849
00:48:32,960 --> 00:48:36,260
on Zoom or whatever. They're
just, what are you doing? Like,

850
00:48:36,320 --> 00:48:39,620
why don't we fire this person?
Every month they hit quota,

851
00:48:40,100 --> 00:48:42,580
like, they always bring them. We
don't know how they do it,

852
00:48:42,640 --> 00:48:45,100
because some people just fly
under the radar. How do you deal

853
00:48:45,100 --> 00:48:49,120
with these people? Well, one
realize that, and this is where

854
00:48:49,120 --> 00:48:53,620
you've got to coach everybody in
a team is sometimes your lone

855
00:48:53,620 --> 00:48:55,720
wolves or your big hitters, or
your people that are fine, or

856
00:48:55,720 --> 00:48:58,600
whatever you scratch a
millimeter beneath the surface,

857
00:48:58,900 --> 00:49:03,240
they're an absolute mess. Quite
often. I'm sure my sales coach

858
00:49:03,240 --> 00:49:05,520
you get this is, oh, we just
want to focus the coaching on

859
00:49:05,520 --> 00:49:09,000
these people. These people are
doing fine. So what would be the

860
00:49:09,000 --> 00:49:11,520
expense to the business if you
lost the people that are doing

861
00:49:11,520 --> 00:49:14,760
fine? Oh, well, actually, one of
them brings in 30% of the year's

862
00:49:14,760 --> 00:49:19,500
revenue, right? Let's start with
them, because if you lose them,

863
00:49:19,740 --> 00:49:21,920
that's going to have a massive
impact. And you go out for

864
00:49:21,920 --> 00:49:24,140
coffee with them, and you have a
chat, tell me a bit about this.

865
00:49:24,140 --> 00:49:26,720
How's that working out? Blah,
blah, and you find out the two

866
00:49:26,720 --> 00:49:29,720
weeks off handing the noticing.
But they never have that chat.

867
00:49:29,720 --> 00:49:31,880
They never get looked at. They
never get taken out for the

868
00:49:31,880 --> 00:49:33,860
coffee. Why? Because they're
always doing fine. They're a big

869
00:49:33,860 --> 00:49:36,620
hitter. They love it. They're
doing great. Be really careful

870
00:49:36,620 --> 00:49:38,960
with them, because these are
humans. They're going to be

871
00:49:38,960 --> 00:49:42,160
fragile. So with your lone
wolves, with your big hitters,

872
00:49:42,160 --> 00:49:44,740
with whatever you've got, to
treat them the same as everybody

873
00:49:44,740 --> 00:49:49,720
else, just a good coach should
be able to adapt their coaching

874
00:49:49,720 --> 00:49:52,180
style for the person that's put
in front

875
00:49:52,420 --> 00:49:55,600
of them. Fascinating. I think
that the challenge you see there

876
00:49:55,600 --> 00:49:59,440
is the lack of confidence, yeah,
to take that lone wolf on. But.

877
00:50:00,000 --> 00:50:02,580
Particularly when, if they're a
lone wolf and they're in the

878
00:50:02,580 --> 00:50:04,140
business, it's because they're
doing

879
00:50:04,140 --> 00:50:06,960
well, there's some phraseology
in there, isn't it? Take them

880
00:50:07,320 --> 00:50:11,160
on, really. People see this is
going to be adversarial. If you

881
00:50:11,160 --> 00:50:15,360
only ask questions, you cannot
be adversarial. It's only

882
00:50:15,360 --> 00:50:19,200
adversarial when you tell people
what to do or give them advice.

883
00:50:19,260 --> 00:50:22,760
Nobody wants advice, do they Oh,
if I was you, I do. Nobody wants

884
00:50:22,760 --> 00:50:25,580
that. Put your head in the bin.
But if you ask somebody a really

885
00:50:25,580 --> 00:50:28,040
good question, it's not
adversarial, you'll make them

886
00:50:28,040 --> 00:50:30,500
think. And you know what, they
won't respond at first anyway.

887
00:50:30,500 --> 00:50:34,280
But you cannot not answer a
question. You can't not answer a

888
00:50:34,280 --> 00:50:37,760
question, who sang thriller?
Don't even think of the answer.

889
00:50:38,480 --> 00:50:40,840
King of Pop. Yeah. You can't not
think What did you offer

890
00:50:40,840 --> 00:50:43,600
breakfast? Don't even think of
the answer. I didn't have any.

891
00:50:43,660 --> 00:50:47,020
You can't not. Yeah. I was
running a session the other

892
00:50:47,020 --> 00:50:50,260
week, and we were talking about
questioning, skills, coaching,

893
00:50:50,260 --> 00:50:52,780
questioning and discovery
questioning. So Ross, let's talk

894
00:50:53,020 --> 00:50:55,660
about some questions that are
nothing to do with sales. Try to

895
00:50:55,660 --> 00:50:58,600
not answer this question. So,
right. Okay, we got right.

896
00:50:58,600 --> 00:51:01,300
Let's, let's do some slightly
deeper questions. I'll ask you

897
00:51:01,300 --> 00:51:05,940
them now. Mark, okay, you don't
have to answer them. Okay, what

898
00:51:05,940 --> 00:51:08,940
if you put on hold in your life
that you shouldn't have done

899
00:51:09,960 --> 00:51:13,260
losing weight? There we go. So
it's not too deep a question,

900
00:51:13,260 --> 00:51:18,720
yeah, what sort of person do you
know you're capable of being

901
00:51:19,320 --> 00:51:21,380
that you wouldn't want to be?
Oh,

902
00:51:21,380 --> 00:51:24,200
this is deep. What sort of
person am I capable of being

903
00:51:24,200 --> 00:51:26,660
that I know I wouldn't want to
be. We can obviously edit out

904
00:51:26,660 --> 00:51:27,500
the thinking time.

905
00:51:27,620 --> 00:51:29,960
Well, no, I think the thinking
time is great, because if you

906
00:51:30,260 --> 00:51:33,200
don't need thinking time, it's
not a very good question. So if

907
00:51:33,200 --> 00:51:35,660
you think about when you're
coaching somebody, if you're

908
00:51:35,660 --> 00:51:39,020
asking questions that are at the
front, yeah, have you got

909
00:51:39,020 --> 00:51:40,960
glasses on? Are you wearing
shoes? Have you had a good day,

910
00:51:40,960 --> 00:51:43,060
how do you think you're doing?
They're just answering straight

911
00:51:43,060 --> 00:51:44,860
away, because you're not
engaging them. They're not

912
00:51:44,860 --> 00:51:47,800
making people think, yeah, if
you ask a question, where you

913
00:51:47,800 --> 00:51:50,680
have to go in your hard drive?
So 90% of the human brain is

914
00:51:50,680 --> 00:51:53,680
hard drive. Everything you've
ever thought, smelled, touched,

915
00:51:53,680 --> 00:51:58,540
experienced in your life is in
there. Challenge is, we've got a

916
00:51:58,540 --> 00:52:02,400
shit RAM. We can't access this
stuff very easily. Then

917
00:52:02,400 --> 00:52:05,160
randomly, you'll be in a
department store or something,

918
00:52:05,160 --> 00:52:07,620
and you'll smell something, and
your brain goes, Oh, Christmas

919
00:52:07,620 --> 00:52:11,880
Day, 2010 what? And smell can
bring back of it. Everything's

920
00:52:11,880 --> 00:52:15,840
in there, in the same part of
the brain where all that stored

921
00:52:15,840 --> 00:52:20,360
is where your emotions live.
Now, if all decisions are

922
00:52:20,360 --> 00:52:23,720
irrational. Which they are, all
decisions are irrational. So

923
00:52:24,080 --> 00:52:27,860
best definition I've ever heard
of what a decision is. A

924
00:52:27,860 --> 00:52:33,560
decision is a prediction of how
you're going to feel. So think

925
00:52:33,560 --> 00:52:37,160
of any decision you ever make.
It's a prediction of how you're

926
00:52:37,160 --> 00:52:40,820
going to feel. So for what sort
of coffee would you like? Right?

927
00:52:40,820 --> 00:52:42,940
You're predicting how you're
going to feel when you're

928
00:52:42,940 --> 00:52:45,340
drinking that coffee in the
future, when you're having that

929
00:52:45,400 --> 00:52:47,560
tell me about your ideal
holiday, or what holiday should

930
00:52:47,560 --> 00:52:49,960
we book? We'll book that one.
Why? Because I've predicted how

931
00:52:49,960 --> 00:52:52,300
I'll feel sat on that beach.
Doing that, here's a menu.

932
00:52:52,300 --> 00:52:54,400
You're predicting how you're
going to feel when your food

933
00:52:54,400 --> 00:52:56,320
arrives, when you eat it, when
you taste it, when you feel

934
00:52:56,320 --> 00:52:58,720
full. Everything is a prediction
of how you're going to feel. So

935
00:52:58,720 --> 00:53:02,220
it's an emotional decision. Only
a good question can get to that

936
00:53:02,220 --> 00:53:05,160
part of the brain where the
emotions live. And it's the

937
00:53:05,160 --> 00:53:07,560
emotion that will make a
decision, and whether that

938
00:53:07,560 --> 00:53:11,280
decision is to buy something as
a salesperson or to change

939
00:53:11,280 --> 00:53:16,080
something as a sales, person
should so a good coach, a good

940
00:53:16,080 --> 00:53:19,860
leader, doesn't need to be the
best salesperson. They don't

941
00:53:19,860 --> 00:53:22,640
need to have the answers. They
need to be really good at

942
00:53:22,640 --> 00:53:24,800
helping the person you're
talking to come up with the

943
00:53:24,800 --> 00:53:26,240
answers. So

944
00:53:26,240 --> 00:53:29,120
was that almost like the point
then when the first question

945
00:53:29,180 --> 00:53:31,400
just gave you an answer the
second question, I really

946
00:53:31,400 --> 00:53:33,200
struggled. I was trying to think
to you've had

947
00:53:33,200 --> 00:53:35,600
to use your RAM to go back into
the part of your brain where

948
00:53:35,600 --> 00:53:38,960
emotions and memories live,
yeah, and thoughts live now

949
00:53:38,960 --> 00:53:41,260
sometimes, and this is the bit
that I love. When you're

950
00:53:41,260 --> 00:53:44,020
coaching people, especially,
they can't find the answer in

951
00:53:44,020 --> 00:53:47,560
there. It's in there, yeah, they
grooving around. And they go, I

952
00:53:47,560 --> 00:53:49,840
just don't you know what will
happen. Three days later, up

953
00:53:49,840 --> 00:53:52,120
comes the answer. If you ever
listen to a song on the radio

954
00:53:52,360 --> 00:53:55,900
and go, Ah, I loved this. Who
was this by and you just can't

955
00:53:55,900 --> 00:53:58,360
remember the band's name, and
you carry on with you day, and

956
00:53:58,360 --> 00:54:01,320
that's it. Three days later,
you're having a shower or

957
00:54:01,320 --> 00:54:04,560
something, and you go, Rem,
where the hell's that come from?

958
00:54:04,560 --> 00:54:06,900
The answer just pops into your
head. Second you've been asked a

959
00:54:06,900 --> 00:54:11,460
question that part of your brain
just keeps working on it. So if

960
00:54:11,460 --> 00:54:14,100
you've got your lone wolf, if
you've got your big hitter who's

961
00:54:14,100 --> 00:54:17,400
not sure what to do next, get
better at asking them the

962
00:54:17,400 --> 00:54:19,680
questions that will make them
think, because they're the only

963
00:54:19,680 --> 00:54:21,980
person that's going to change
themselves. Can't convince

964
00:54:21,980 --> 00:54:26,600
anybody of anything. Here you
go. Mark, you've got a day and

965
00:54:26,600 --> 00:54:29,720
you can have a day out. Okay,
yeah, you can go wherever you

966
00:54:29,720 --> 00:54:33,260
want for this day out, within
budget and physics, yeah, yeah,

967
00:54:33,260 --> 00:54:35,480
a favorite place, but it's
entirely up to you. The weather

968
00:54:35,480 --> 00:54:38,900
can be as great as you need it
to be. And you can invite

969
00:54:39,080 --> 00:54:44,680
anybody you want to come with
you on this day out. However, at

970
00:54:44,680 --> 00:54:47,440
the end of the day, wherever you
are with the people that you've

971
00:54:47,440 --> 00:54:50,980
gone with, as the sun's going
down, it's going to be your last

972
00:54:50,980 --> 00:54:53,620
day. You're going to die that
evening. This is the last time

973
00:54:53,620 --> 00:54:58,900
you're there with these people
ever. Where'd you go? Who'd you

974
00:54:58,900 --> 00:55:02,700
bring with you? I. And as the
sun's going down, what do you

975
00:55:02,700 --> 00:55:03,180
say to them?

976
00:55:05,280 --> 00:55:07,080
That's it out. You actually want
answers that

977
00:55:07,140 --> 00:55:10,320
no, but you'll have one. I'm
sorry, I feel emotional, but

978
00:55:10,320 --> 00:55:13,620
you'll have an answer at some
point it comes in. Why? Because

979
00:55:13,620 --> 00:55:15,780
it's a question. That's the
emotional part of the brain.

980
00:55:15,780 --> 00:55:18,540
That's where we're going. Yeah.
Now imagine if, in sales and in

981
00:55:18,540 --> 00:55:23,000
sales coaching, you can help
somebody feel what it would be

982
00:55:23,000 --> 00:55:26,240
like to work with you. Feel what
it would be like to have their

983
00:55:26,240 --> 00:55:29,300
problem solved. Feel what it
would be like in three months,

984
00:55:29,480 --> 00:55:33,680
once this big, awful problem's
gone away, well, they're now

985
00:55:33,680 --> 00:55:37,400
coming up with that decision to
buy or to change their sales

986
00:55:37,400 --> 00:55:41,260
approach. Why? Because a
decision is a prediction of how

987
00:55:41,260 --> 00:55:45,640
you're going to feel. If you
can't help somebody feel, you

988
00:55:45,640 --> 00:55:48,220
can't help them predict how
they're going to feel. There's

989
00:55:48,220 --> 00:55:52,240
no decision there to be had, and
all a great coach is doing is

990
00:55:52,240 --> 00:55:56,620
help somebody make the decision
to change. And a lone wolf can

991
00:55:56,620 --> 00:55:59,380
make that decision to change, a
top hitter can make that

992
00:55:59,380 --> 00:56:02,040
decision to change, but until
they make that decision you

993
00:56:02,040 --> 00:56:04,200
mentioned before, Mark, I hope
you don't mind saying that,

994
00:56:04,860 --> 00:56:08,640
putting off losing weight, yeah,
until you've made that decision,

995
00:56:09,540 --> 00:56:12,060
it'll never change. I know
people who are trying to quit

996
00:56:12,060 --> 00:56:15,600
smoking, but they've not quite
decided that they want to quit

997
00:56:15,600 --> 00:56:19,860
smoking, yet they'll never quit
smoking. So lone wolves, top

998
00:56:19,860 --> 00:56:24,560
hitters, run the mill, whatever
great coaching in salespeople is

999
00:56:24,620 --> 00:56:27,800
questioning their answers, not
answering the questions, because

1000
00:56:27,800 --> 00:56:29,180
that's where all the good stuff
lies.

1001
00:56:30,260 --> 00:56:33,440
What? What an amazing bit of
dialog you just given us there.

1002
00:56:34,760 --> 00:56:37,100
Yeah, incredible. I want to
start taking back, because I'm

1003
00:56:37,100 --> 00:56:41,320
still just emotionally thinking
about this day. It's so funny,

1004
00:56:41,320 --> 00:56:44,440
the day changed in my mind,
because first I was thinking,

1005
00:56:44,440 --> 00:56:46,780
Oh, just go somewhere with a
wife. Well, actually, my first

1006
00:56:46,780 --> 00:56:49,300
answer is, do so by myself. And
I thought, oh, no, should

1007
00:56:49,300 --> 00:56:51,700
probably take the wife along.
And then when I heard the MB, I

1008
00:56:51,700 --> 00:56:54,340
was like, well, I need my kids
there, you know? And now we're

1009
00:56:54,340 --> 00:56:56,560
not doing anything for me and
the wine. We're doing something

1010
00:56:56,560 --> 00:56:58,600
for the kids. You know what I
mean? Like, what a great

1011
00:56:58,600 --> 00:57:00,040
question. Really sort of gave
her on

1012
00:57:00,040 --> 00:57:02,520
detail, on sales questions. I
don't want people listening to

1013
00:57:02,520 --> 00:57:05,460
this going in this meeting
today. I know. So here's one

1014
00:57:05,460 --> 00:57:07,920
funny. I was doing some training
the other year. Great group of

1015
00:57:07,920 --> 00:57:11,520
people around the table. We were
just talking language skills and

1016
00:57:12,600 --> 00:57:14,760
everything about sales is the
use of language, self

1017
00:57:14,880 --> 00:57:17,580
development is its use of
language, getting success is

1018
00:57:17,580 --> 00:57:19,800
just the use of language.
Selling anything is used

1019
00:57:19,800 --> 00:57:22,760
language. Customer Services, use
of language. And there was a

1020
00:57:22,760 --> 00:57:25,580
fabulous girl in this training.
She was really into it, you

1021
00:57:25,580 --> 00:57:28,460
know, she was, like, really
soaking it all up and asking

1022
00:57:28,460 --> 00:57:30,920
questions, really, really like
this girl. And we did this

1023
00:57:30,920 --> 00:57:33,320
questioning stuff around the
table. And I asked this girl,

1024
00:57:33,320 --> 00:57:37,160
she was only in her early 20s,
and I eyeballed her and just

1025
00:57:37,160 --> 00:57:40,240
said, what if you put on hold in
your life that you just

1026
00:57:40,240 --> 00:57:44,560
shouldn't have done. And took
her about three seconds, and

1027
00:57:44,560 --> 00:57:47,440
she's no word of like, she burst
into tears and ran out the room,

1028
00:57:48,040 --> 00:57:52,000
and I was like, Oh, I've broken
one of your team. I'm sorry. And

1029
00:57:52,000 --> 00:57:56,020
she went out, she quit, she
actually quit her job. And I was

1030
00:57:56,020 --> 00:57:59,140
like, I'm not being funny. That
is an extreme reaction, like,

1031
00:57:59,140 --> 00:58:03,360
I've never seen that before. So
turns out, when we dug down a

1032
00:58:03,360 --> 00:58:06,480
little bit, she'd been in a
relationship with a few years

1033
00:58:06,480 --> 00:58:09,180
with a guy, and then she met
him, she was about to go and be

1034
00:58:09,180 --> 00:58:13,680
a dancer, and she put it all on
hold for this relationship. And

1035
00:58:13,680 --> 00:58:16,740
like, four days before she
happened to be asked that

1036
00:58:16,740 --> 00:58:21,500
question by me, this guy had
finished her and left so where

1037
00:58:21,500 --> 00:58:25,160
I'd asked, What is a back of
brain, deep, emotional question?

1038
00:58:25,400 --> 00:58:28,460
The answer wasn't back there. It
was right. It was right at the

1039
00:58:28,460 --> 00:58:32,960
front. Now, if you ever get
asked a deep make you think

1040
00:58:32,960 --> 00:58:35,780
question, and you can answer it
like that, you should probably

1041
00:58:35,780 --> 00:58:39,140
do something about that. Yeah,
if it's that forefront of Mary,

1042
00:58:39,200 --> 00:58:41,440
you know these really common
questions like, What would you

1043
00:58:41,440 --> 00:58:44,200
regret most in life if you never
did anything about it? If you

1044
00:58:44,200 --> 00:58:48,280
can just go, I've just got to do
this really quickly. If it's

1045
00:58:48,280 --> 00:58:51,580
that near the surface, go and do
something about it that's

1046
00:58:51,580 --> 00:58:56,380
clearly really important to you.
So yeah, learn really, really

1047
00:58:56,380 --> 00:58:57,160
cool questions.

1048
00:58:57,280 --> 00:59:02,280
Let's, let's start to wrap the
conversation, Chris, because I

1049
00:59:02,280 --> 00:59:05,460
feel like I could spend another
couple of hours with you, and we

1050
00:59:05,460 --> 00:59:08,100
will, we just won't record and
edit and we'll just go the pub

1051
00:59:08,100 --> 00:59:12,120
and do it. What's the most
common flaw you see in sales

1052
00:59:12,120 --> 00:59:13,860
managers using the

1053
00:59:13,860 --> 00:59:16,680
myth that they haven't got time
to look after their team,

1054
00:59:17,100 --> 00:59:19,020
because everything else should
be secondary.

1055
00:59:19,800 --> 00:59:25,580
What's the one thing you've seen
sales professionals add to their

1056
00:59:25,580 --> 00:59:29,300
game that takes them to the next
level tech

1057
00:59:29,300 --> 00:59:31,580
that helps them get rid of
admin? Got an

1058
00:59:32,840 --> 00:59:33,800
example for us, a

1059
00:59:35,720 --> 00:59:38,960
lot of companies now using some
advanced AI tools. We've been

1060
00:59:38,960 --> 00:59:42,100
speaking to companies about it
to do so many layers of your

1061
00:59:42,100 --> 00:59:46,840
sales admin and so much of your
CRM edition that they're

1062
00:59:46,840 --> 00:59:49,660
spending more time having
conversations. Everything that

1063
00:59:49,660 --> 00:59:52,720
isn't having a conversation
isn't a sales activity. I mean,

1064
00:59:52,720 --> 00:59:55,120
we know these stats have come
out. What is it from sales loft,

1065
00:59:55,120 --> 00:59:59,080
32% of a salesperson's time is
actually spent selling well,

1066
00:59:59,560 --> 01:00:02,460
like. You're a race driver, I
want you racing the car. If

1067
01:00:02,580 --> 01:00:05,040
you're a mechanic, I want you in
my engine, doing stuff. If

1068
01:00:05,040 --> 01:00:07,200
you're my salesperson, I
wouldn't have in a conversation.

1069
01:00:07,320 --> 01:00:10,920
Biggest thing you can do as a
sales manager is take everything

1070
01:00:10,920 --> 01:00:13,020
off your sales team that isn't
sales activity.

1071
01:00:13,800 --> 01:00:19,080
When you said tech, tech, I was
expecting you say otter. What

1072
01:00:19,140 --> 01:00:21,860
piece of advice would you give
to someone looking to step up

1073
01:00:21,920 --> 01:00:23,240
into their first leadership

1074
01:00:23,960 --> 01:00:28,880
role. Oh, ask yourself, why you
want to do it? Do you really

1075
01:00:28,880 --> 01:00:32,000
want to be a leader? What's your
moment? Is it because you see it

1076
01:00:32,660 --> 01:00:36,380
as you get the glory and the
honor? Because I'm now a leader,

1077
01:00:36,380 --> 01:00:39,500
it's a dreadful reason to do it.
You're probably going to take a

1078
01:00:39,500 --> 01:00:44,200
pay cut, and it's no longer
about you, you know, just really

1079
01:00:44,200 --> 01:00:47,680
look into it first, because it
can be a poison chalice. And

1080
01:00:47,680 --> 01:00:50,200
then last question, this is
specifically for you. Okay, I've

1081
01:00:50,200 --> 01:00:53,080
been told that you love
LinkedIn. Posts about bringing

1082
01:00:53,080 --> 01:00:56,140
the value, leaving the value.
Tell us about that.

1083
01:00:56,740 --> 01:00:59,680
Okay, so I think what you get in
that as a whole is there's a lot

1084
01:00:59,680 --> 01:01:03,360
of buzzword bingo suddenly on
LinkedIn isn't there. And we

1085
01:01:03,360 --> 01:01:06,360
found this out when we did
clubhouse. If in doubt, just say

1086
01:01:06,360 --> 01:01:09,060
value. And it sounds like I've
got an answer to this, yeah. And

1087
01:01:09,060 --> 01:01:12,360
I think we really need to stop
this crap. Yeah. We need to

1088
01:01:12,360 --> 01:01:15,900
drill down on value, lead with
value, increase the value. Just

1089
01:01:15,900 --> 01:01:18,780
bring value. And when you go,
Oh, give me an example of what

1090
01:01:18,780 --> 01:01:23,780
you mean, it's just buzzword
bingo. They can't, yeah, and I

1091
01:01:23,780 --> 01:01:28,220
kind of get where it's coming
from, but let's just fancy talk.

1092
01:01:28,280 --> 01:01:31,160
Doesn't you know what's other
buzzword bingo that's been

1093
01:01:31,160 --> 01:01:33,920
happening recently values them a
massive player for me at the

1094
01:01:33,920 --> 01:01:36,320
moment, and I pull people on it
straight away. Give me an

1095
01:01:36,320 --> 01:01:38,900
example. Exactly what do you
mean? And most people can't,

1096
01:01:38,900 --> 01:01:41,680
because they've just heard
somebody else say it. Ah,

1097
01:01:41,680 --> 01:01:43,900
there's a phrase at the moment
for when you're going in as a

1098
01:01:43,900 --> 01:01:46,180
sales director, but you're not
really there. You like

1099
01:01:46,180 --> 01:01:50,080
parachuted in. Well, parachute
in is another one. Fractional,

1100
01:01:50,080 --> 01:01:53,200
fractional. Suddenly,
everything's fractional, and

1101
01:01:53,200 --> 01:01:55,960
it's just trends, isn't it? And
I'm all right with that, but I'm

1102
01:01:55,960 --> 01:01:57,400
a bit of a curmudgeon old git
Now,

1103
01:01:58,660 --> 01:02:02,220
Chris, genuinely, really, really
enjoy this episode. There's been

1104
01:02:02,220 --> 01:02:06,660
moments where you've shared
insightful stories, funny

1105
01:02:06,660 --> 01:02:09,540
stories. There's moments where
you've really made me think and

1106
01:02:09,540 --> 01:02:12,000
feel a little bit emotional with
some of the questions you've

1107
01:02:12,000 --> 01:02:14,640
asked me, like you've taken me
back to when I was in school,

1108
01:02:14,940 --> 01:02:18,540
absolutely terrified of Mr.
Brace, of walking around the

1109
01:02:18,540 --> 01:02:21,320
classroom. You made me think
about how to spend my last down

1110
01:02:21,320 --> 01:02:25,220
Earth. There's so much more I
know we could get from our time

1111
01:02:25,220 --> 01:02:29,900
together, but let's bring it to
a close. We can always do

1112
01:02:29,900 --> 01:02:35,900
another episode. How can people
find more of you and your stuff?

1113
01:02:36,740 --> 01:02:37,100
I'm all

1114
01:02:38,060 --> 01:02:40,900
over LinkedIn. You can't miss me
on there. Look for Chris Dawson

1115
01:02:40,900 --> 01:02:44,020
on LinkedIn. Go and find the
sales Dojo podcast that's on

1116
01:02:44,020 --> 01:02:46,540
Apple, Spotify, Amazon.
Everywhere you go, go and look

1117
01:02:46,540 --> 01:02:49,480
for sixth door, which is the
worst business name ever,

1118
01:02:49,480 --> 01:02:52,420
because nobody, everybody, how,
what? What is it? Floor, sixth.

1119
01:02:52,420 --> 01:02:54,880
How do we spell that? Just
Google. Sales Training,

1120
01:02:54,880 --> 01:02:57,400
Liverpool. Sales Training, UK.
Sales Training, Northwest.

1121
01:02:57,640 --> 01:03:00,220
You'll see me pop up if they
want to chat. You know what?

1122
01:03:00,220 --> 01:03:02,820
Phone me up. Nobody phones you
up anymore. Do they should do

1123
01:03:02,820 --> 01:03:05,400
and welcome to have a chat with
anyone. It's been great having a

1124
01:03:05,400 --> 01:03:06,120
chat with yourself.

1125
01:03:06,180 --> 01:03:08,280
Matt, love that. Thanks, Chris,
thanks coming up. Cheers,

1126
01:03:08,280 --> 01:03:11,580
man. You.