Welcome to the podcast. Here's a sneak peek of what's coming up
in today's episode. Did you used to be crap sales? I'm gonna say
I think I still am. Every time I think I've got good something comes
along to make me realize how little I know. So then I learn
more, and I get better, and then something comes along and makes
me realize, oh, I want to be like them. They're amazing. And
I think that's one of the ways that I did slowly get better. I
genuinely still think I'm not as good as a lot of people. There
was a time that I thought I was really good. Okay, I turned up
at the front on my first day, and I was heartbroken. Didn't
have a clue. I was awful. I was young. I had no emotional
intelligence. I was naive. Should have been fired from
these jobs, but they supported me, and they helped me, and I
started to get good. Let's grow our people, because we are going
to get off this hamster wheel every month, every quarter being
a slog. What would you say to an SDR when you're coaching them
and you can tell that they've just got it in them. They're
exceptional, they're talented. They can do this, but the
monotony is killing them. I've worked with a lot of SDRs, and
one of the first things I ask them is, when we lost out a week
off same call day after day in the same office on the same
phone, and before you know it, you've slipped into that
pattern. Take a step back, strip it back to the basics, go to
absolute bare minimum in your calls. That's the advice you'd
give to managers on how to help their SDRs break this monotony
and keep going. The first advice I'd give to managers is, what
piece of advice would you give to someone looking to step up
into their first leadership role? Ask yourself, why you want
to do it? Do you really want to be a leader? And it's no longer
about you. What's the most common flaw you see in sales
managers using the myth that they haven't got time to look
after their team, because everything else should be
secondary. Biggest thing you can do as a sales manager is take,
hello and welcome to another episode of The I used to be crap
at sales podcast. I'm your host, Mark Akers, the co founder and
Head of Sales here at my sales coach, we called the podcast I
used to be crap at sales because all of our guests used to be
today. I've got the director of sixth door and the co host of
the sales Dojo podcast. That's Chris Dawson. Chris, welcome
from podcast host to podcast guest. It's great to have you
here today. How you feeling
very good, really good to finally come and have a chat
with you. Mark, it's
great to have you here. Let's kick it off with a yes, no
question, Chris, did you used to be crap at sales.
I'm going to swerve the yes, no answer. I'm going to say I think
I still am. Okay. Tell me more about that. So my sales career
is vast, and I've always looked at myself going through plateaus
where every time I think I've got good summit comes along to
make me realize how little I know. So then I learn more, and
I get better, and then something comes along and makes me
realize, oh, I want to be like them. They're amazing. And I
keep going through these phases, and I think that's one of the
ways that I did slowly get better, was I genuinely still
think I'm not as good as a lot of people. When was the most
recent example of when you felt like that?
So I don't remember if you remember back in lockdown, we
run a show every night on clubhouse, clubhouse. Yeah.
Listened. Amazing experience, not lockdown. I know that was
grim for a lot of people, but I got to spend an hour every night
for 297
days, I think we did it in a row, listening to people from
all over the world take on how to sell. I was just a sponge. I
was I got like, seven notebooks full of this stuff that we were
learning from people, from yourself as well, and from rich
and, you know, for Stephen hyman's daughter, was on there
some nights, and people from Bali and Canada and the US and
South Africa and everything. And it really humbled me that I'd
got into a position where, you know, I was feeling pretty proud
of myself, built a successful sales training business, closed
big deals. So I'm not saying that I'm a bad salesperson at
all, but I still think I'm, I'm a millionth of what I could be.
I'll give you an idea. Go ahead. So you were just telling me off
camera that you're, I'm allowed to say. So I'm assuming, if not,
we'll edit out. But you're writing a book, right? I am at
the moment, yep, um, that's a book. There seven notepads. Oh
yeah, worth of learnings. Oh yeah. Imagine the book that you
could write there. Just each page is a lesson, right? Oh, I
mean, the rooms that we did so like one night, seven o'clock at
night, everyone's been stuck in the house for weeks. There's
people dying all over the world, and there's me and Leon going,
hi everyone. Tonight, we're going to talk about how to get
referral business. Yeah, and 150 people from around the world,
salespeople, sales professionals would come on and give us their
ideas on how to do that, and I'd write it all down. I felt like a
thief, like we were getting this for free. And yeah, we've got so
how to get referral business, how to make a cold call, how to
handle a price objection, how to deal with your mindset, how to
raise VC funding. Could be anything, and I've got notebooks
full of it. Yeah.
That
is 296 lockdown lessons for sales professionals. I'd buy
that book. I'm going to buy your first book that's coming out,
but I'm going to buy the sequel. So when you think back to your
sales career, one of the questions I love to ask is there
any Howler mistakes that you can think back to and share with us,
there's
got to be so many, hasn't there? I've high five to Chico exec,
not realizing they were the chief exec anyway, proper High
Five went in.
If I go back a long time, still my very earliest sales job, or
one of my very early sales jobs, I was 17. I was a student the
summer of 96 Brit pops raging. The sun was shining. I was 17.
What a time to be alive. All my friends were picking cabbages in
fields in the summer holidays to make money or working in shops
or laboring. And I'm, like a lot of salespeople, inherently,
quite a lazy guy. Mark, yeah, I managed to find a job selling
oil paintings door to door, like you do, and I went off on summer
evenings listening to pulp and blur on the way there in a
minibus with a bag of oil paintings to a housing estate in
Cheshire or somewhere. I'd be given three streets to Canvas
for three hours, and we'd knock on the door and maybe go into it
later on what we said and how we do it, but I've been in places
and got drunk with people. I've been chased by dogs. I've had
the police called on me. I've made dreadful mistakes. I think
one of the biggest I've made was quite recently. And I'm sorry if
you're listening or watching this, if it was you, we added
when it first came out, a note taking function to zoom. You
know, it dictates everything that was
written. And once the meeting had finished, we said some less
than complimentary things about the person on the meeting, which
in hindsight, we stood up for. They were fairly well deserved,
not realizing it, will automatically email them a full
transcription of everything we've just said with your name.
So it literally said Chris, and there's this is word for word,
what I said, and it dropped in his emails, and we didn't
realize for like two hours, until we got an email, which was
rather harshly written. I knew what had the second I opened
this email, I knew what had happened. So we've turned that
note taking function off straightaway. Important lesson
for everybody, technology is listening all the time now, be
dead careful what you've got attached. Yeah, that didn't go
very well. That is a hell of a lesson. A heck of a lesson,
yeah? So just to be really clear that this is on Zoom, you've got
the AI summary. So that AI summary, yeah, is this a plug in
that you use in addition to that, or is this the Zoom AI?
No, we were using an otter plugin. So otter then
automatically emails everybody invited to that meeting with the
full transcription, whether they were on it at that point or not,
right? And it's literally your name, what you said, somebody
else's name, what they said. And I think the email started with,
and, excuse my language, but word for word, Dear Chris,
here's a fucking life hack for you. Turn your transcription
service off if you're going to talk smack about people. If you
ever had it where your heart just goes in your stomach, you
go cold. So we're like, Well, what are we going to do? Like,
there's no excuse. You bang to write it literally says your
name. This is what you said. You can't get out of it, so we
double down. Really, there was no way out of it. There was no
excuse. So we double down. I just reply, and I said, you
know, obviously no offense calls you talk differently in the
background, don't you? But we did mean what we said. Would you
like some feedback? We just went for it. Double down on it. There
was no other way out of it. Didn't get the deal, no, like,
didn't get anything further. But, yeah, these heart stopping
moments. Wow.
What a story. I can't wait to hear off camera exactly what was
said. But there we go. Okay, so I was looking at your career,
and I feel like we've known each other for years. Yeah, like in
lockdown, I listened on clubhouse, and I don't think I
ever spoke on it. Maybe
I did, but I'm sure we did have a chat now and then, Mark, yeah,
no,
maybe we did, but I remember listening, and I thought I'd
known each other for ages, but obviously we've already met a
few times, but I was looking over your background, I see
obviously started in advertising in 1996 as you say, a year to be
alive. That was a year before I started secondary school. Just
not trying to make you feel old. I'm an old father, that's okay.
Then retail sales, then a couple of years in telesales, then you
moved to iron Mars, a sales team leader, but still an IC yet
managing a team of up to 12 people and promoted Sales
Training Manager in 2007 which is, I think, where you found
your calling, so to speak. Yeah, then ahead of sales training at
BT for just over three years before founding sixth door, so
sort. You told it all up period of 27 and a half years you've
been in this year, really? Yeah, I was gonna ask you, how long
you think you crap for like, in that period, because one of the
things people say to me is, like, probably crap at eight
years or 10 years. But obviously you've slightly thrown a curb in
there saying you feel like, and I get that logic, yeah.
Well, would it let me put some definition on that? There was a
time that I thought I was really good, okay, the few instances
that stand out to me, Mark one was, I've got no discernible
skill. My family laughs that in the Apocalypse, when we need
people to rebuild civilization, I am going to be useless, yeah,
unless you want somebody who's great at talking to people and
selling, but if we need to build houses and men stuff, not a
chance. So I've always sold. It's the only discernible skill
I've got. So when I was younger, sold oil paintings door to door.
I paid my way through university selling Pokemon paraphernalia on
the street like I hawked it on the street. My first trip to
Newcastle ever was, I made posters of famous footballers on
a PC, which in the late 90s, early 2000s clearly weren't very
good. Had them laminated, and then I just stand outside St
James's Park at big match days and sell them on the street
until we got chased off by other hawkers or the police or
whatever. And it was that whole entrepreneurial sell or you
don't pay the rent sort of spirit. So when I got my first
sales job, I went to it thinking I was a really good salesperson.
This was my first lesson that I wasn't market stall street
corners, door knocking, B to C. I sold fake glasses with a fake
nose on. I had a bag of 250 of them big black glasses with a
big nose and a mustache attached. And at University of
Central Lancashire, they used to have a thing called The Longest
Day, last day of term. They'd have a 12, it's before 24 hour
licensing. They opened at midday, closed at two at night,
14 hours of Bedlam, drinking parties, bands, all that lot.
There was a queue half a mile long to get into this thing, and
I just stood at one end of the queue with a pair of glasses
with a fake nose and a fake mustache on with a bag full of
them with a sign around my neck and lots of them, two quid. By
the time I got to the front of the queue, they'd all gone. I
had a load of money in my pocket, and I went and enjoyed
the longest day. And it was dead easy, because by the time I'd
sold some of them, everybody would see other people wearing
them and they were and it just kind of snowballed. So all I've
ever done was sell so when I got my first what I'd call
professional sales job, which we can go into later, I thought,
I'll smash this like, how dead easy. But it was on the phone.
Never done that. I turned up at the on my first day full of
spunk and ego like most 18 year olds are, yeah, and I was
heartbroken when I picked up the phone. I just didn't have a
clue. I was absolutely and I was for months, I was awful, and I'd
learned this roller coaster really quickly that so many SDRs
have of. One, the phone is really hard. Two, how do you
control your mindset? How do you cope with rejection? How do you
hit a target? All these things. And that was one of those first
plateaus of, I'm really good at sales, to Oh no, I don't know
anything, do I? And that was kind of that beginning of that
journey, to use a phrase as we go along, to me realizing that
I'm still not very good. Who helped you turn that around?
Number of people along the way and a number of happenstance
took me quite a time to get my head around the phone in my
first phone job, I had a lack of confidence, which had been
knocked I was young. I had no emotional intelligence. I was
naive, but I learned it, and I started going with I had a few
people that really supported me. I often call out the MD of the
champion newspaper group, lady called Betty Drummond, who
should have fired me? Should have been fired from these jobs,
but they supported me, and they helped me, and I started to get
good, and then I went and I moved on, and you're bad again.
And it's that, that step up. So there's been a number of people
along the way. There's been myself, there's been a number of
books, there's been some points of realization, and I suppose at
the point in time I am now, it's churlish off me to say I'm not
very good at selling. You know, there's, it's that classic
imposter syndrome. There's a wealth of evidence to say I am,
but there's probably a wealth of people out there that would go,
No, it's not. It's crap, because they dealt with me during a crap
phase. So yeah, it's an interesting
ride. Well, there might be one prospect in particular just got
there might be somebody
there who's pretty hungry with me. Yeah, no,
I know you're being very British and humbling when you say you're
not. I know you're a phenomenal sales trainer and coach, really
lucky to have your time here today. But yeah, it's
interesting that ego that you would have had going into your
first job, and I understand that, like, actually, you know,
some very entrepreneurial young age, and you seem to have lots
of stories. I'm sure we could spend half hour talking about
all the ways you made money and sold it and early. Oh yeah, but
let's talk about that first job then. So how did you go from
that, that humbling moment, to being a team leader at iomm? I.
That's quite astounding. You say you should have been sacked and
you weren't. How did you go from that to that? So
very potted history was I got I got really good on the phone,
started beating target, then I decided to go uni, because at
the time in the 90s, that was the thing you had to do if you
wanted to get anywhere. Sales wasn't recognized like it is
now, but I sold stuff to pay my way through there. One of the
jobs I got at uni was a clothes shop, and it was you got
commission on the clothes that you sold. So it's a different
type of selling, again, hustling for clothing. People would come
in, we'd have DJs in the windows, a really cool clothes
shop, and you just go over with a cup of tea. First thing I
learned make them a cup of tea, because you've got them for 20
minutes, then, because they've got to drink the cup of tea and
you can chat about it. Oh, I thought you'd see those, those
of you in Yeah, you're right. That would look good, wouldn't
it? And off we go. And we're hustling for clothes. Watch. We
got commission on how many clothes we sold, and I was all
about the commission, but then I wasn't making enough money,
because there's no money in retail, so I look for where's
the more money. And I got into what I would class as my first
proper SDR role, which wasn't recognized like that back then,
but they had a really good basic for the period, dreadful for
now, for the period. And that attracted me is that if I get
commission on top as well, I've got a bit of security, and off
we go. And when I started, I'd been hustling clothes again. I
was at that ego point, and I went in and I actually smashed
it really well when I when I started off. But it was my first
full time SDR role. And the thing I hadn't learned at that
point, I'd learned to objection handle and open a call and put
the call time in and the dials. What I hadn't learned was the
mindset thing. So I started off really well, with my ego, with
my skill, I was doing great. Then what I'd not learnt is how
to deal with the monotony that started to get to me, not to
deal with the bad week when you inevitably get it. Still only in
my early 20s, I didn't have the EQ to deal with that as well,
how to separate what's going on outside the office from inside.
It was that extra part that I've not learned then, and that was
the next platter. I went downhill again there, and I just
it was like steps going up a plateau, not that good, up
again, until I eventually got on that thing. One of the big
things that did help with that was, and I don't know if anybody
listening to this can empathize with this, I moved offices. I
was with a certain group, certain place with a load of
people doing it in a certain way that just I didn't gel with. I
didn't like going in the office in the morning. I didn't really
want to be there. I wanted to get the call over with. And it
put me in quite a dark place, as anybody who's been in SDR can
testify to. And I moved offices to same company, but to a
different place with different people, with a different leader,
with a different outlook, and it was like a fresh start. And I
really took off then and again, just up these steps and up these
steps, and then you don't realize it, you're suddenly a
lot better. It's like a sport or learning to drive or anything,
because it's so incremental. You don't realize till you look
back, how much better you've got and then I started getting
consistent on target and helping other people get consistent on
target and learning new ways, and then reading books. And I
think the biggest pivotal moment at that point was I took it
seriously. All of a sudden,
there's a lot you said there that I'd love to dive into. I
think that that last bit of taking it seriously is a big
thing, because I think a lot of people fall into sales Well, I
mean, we all, yeah, exactly right. And we do that almost
can't do anything else. Yeah, I'll take that job, or I need
money, or this, I'll do this for a little while. And it's that
realization of, actually, this is a skill, this thing that I do
that pays my salary, that pays for my mortgage, funds my
lifestyle, this is a skill. If I can fine tune this and you take
it seriously, I can make more money. But the bit I really want
to ask you about is a challenge that I see SDRs have themselves,
but managers have with SDRs the monotony. Yeah, so let's think
about, first of all, from an SDR point of view, right? We know
how important that role is. It is vital to pipeline fixes
almost every problem that's monotonous. Yeah, every day is
the same thing. Let's talk about the SDR first, and I want to get
to a manager. But what would you say to an SDR and you're
coaching them, and you can tell that they've just got it in
them. They're exceptional, they're talented, they can do
this, but the monotony is killing them. Yeah. What do you
say to them? How do you coach them?
There's a number of things. And you know, one thing I've really
noticed within the SDR world as well. And I don't know whether
this is just me that's or if you relate to this, people don't
take time off. People become obsessed with the role, and
they've got a target here in the field, they can't take any time
off. And I've worked with a lot of SDRs, and one of the first
things I asked them is, when we last had a week off? And quite.
Half an hour eight months ago. I'm like, and it's not about
burnout or any of these things, but it's about you just need
that reset a little bit. You've got to take that step back.
There's Have you ever seen Dead Poets Society? Robin Williams
film? Highly recommend it. So very short. Gist of it is, Robin
Williams is a maverick English teacher in a private school in
the 50s, and he's trying to get the students out of this normal
mindset, that they have this regimented mindset. So he takes
them all in the courtyard, so there's 25 students, and he
says, right, I want you to all work around the courtyard in a
circle, but do a silly walk. Do whatever you want. You can hop,
you can skip, you can jump, you can do strides, you can walk
backwards, do whatever you want. All work, all walk in all
different ways, going round, and within three circuits of the
courtyard, they're all walking in absolute unison. They're all
marching to a beat together. And this is how an SDRs life can go
same call day after day in the same office on the same phone,
and before you know it, you've slipped into that pattern. You
need a I know it's the most used phrase now, isn't it, in a
different way, but you need a pattern interrupt. That's what
pattern interrupt really means. It's interrupting your pattern
of what you're doing things in. So take that step back, review
your script, listen to your call. What can you throw
overboard? We find the monotony tends to lead to over
complication, to less interest, to take a step back, strip it
back to the basics. Go to absolute bare minimum in your
calls, take a bit of time off.
I think they take a bit of time interesting. I know. So I think
I've managed salespeople for about eight years. I don't think
I've ever sort of been conscious of them taking like just except
holidays never declined a holiday as it comes in. But I
don't think I've ever thought, oh, when's the last time you had
a holiday? I don't think that's ever entered my mind. And that's
that's really eye opening? Well, we
you just go online. We live in this hustle culture, don't we?
Yeah, that's 10x hustle. You know, time offs for wimps and
all this lot.
Well, that's changing now, though, it
really is, and I'm glad about that, but it is. You're running
at 50% so first thing I'd look at is, do you take time out? Do
you chill out? Because if your brain focuses on one thing for
so long, you become blind to that one thing. What you need to
do, take that bit of time out, take the step back, review your
calls, shake it off, and then simplify everything. Throw
everything overboard. Take it back to the bare bones of your
job and the bits that are enjoyable and almost like a
fresh start with it. But there is also a shelf life to an SDR,
the just is, we know this, there's a shelf life within a
company to an SDR, what do you think a shelf life is? Varies
from SDR to SDR, I get that, but it's very rare. You see somebody
smashing the numbers inside out non stop for more than three
years, and it won't. And
I'm guessing, when you speak with managers that have this
problem, that's the advice you give to managers on how to help
their SDRs break this monotony and keep going. Well,
the first advice I'd give to managers is what conversation
you've already had with them. And it's amazing how many
haven't even had the conversation, they've just
guessed at what the problem might be. Or they don't see it
as burnout. They don't see it as monotony. They see it as oh
well, they're lazy, or I need them to have more passion. And
it all comes from somewhere, doesn't it? Nobody. And here's
the thing, this is what I do say to managers straight away,
nobody went to get a sales job, went through the interview
process, decided to take this challenge on, and on the first
day, thought, you know they're making the sandwiches and
they're ironing the tie or whatever it is, and they think,
you know what, I'm going to go this sales job. I'm going to be
shit. Nobody went into sales with that. Everybody has gone to
a sales job thinking, I'm going to wear money, I'm going to be
really good, I'm going to get loads of sales this is going to
be great. Nobody intentionally gets a sales job and wants to be
shipped. Something has happened along the way, and that is
either they've not been coached, supported, trained, managed, or
it's not for them. Some people aren't going out for it, but
this has to be recognized and dealt with sooner, rather than
later. So what are
the telltale signs that a manager can look for to
proactively spot this before it's too
late. Activity levels starting to drop. Call length starting to
drop, was a huge red flag for me. You know, call volumes gone
up, but call length, average call length has got down. That
means they're going, I ever next? They've just lost that
thing. So the the call rates going up, but their average call
length is going down. It's amazing. I hate KPIs, because
people manage with them, which is a dreadful way to manage.
People, but as a trainer, maths doesn't lie, and you can spot
patterns and where people are challenged by that. So if I'm
seeing somebody's making 150 dials a day, and their average
call length is a minute and a half, but they're not brand new,
and there's a there's a decline in that, right? They've hit that
point where they're just bored. They're going through the
motions. They're not engaging, they're not trying. Have they
come close to burnout on that, or have to come close to that
monotonous cycle?
Fascinating. I agree with you on the KPIs, but I can see why.
Like you say, the math doesn't lie, and it helps you figure out
where to spend your time, to dig deeper. You just can't make a
decision at that.
Don't manage people with KPIs. Yeah, coach and support people
with KPIs. You know, first thing I'll look at when I go and meet
a team. So here's, here's Sharon his call stats that they've got
from whatever system that they're using, if I can look at
right? They've done 60 calls today. Their average call length
is five and a half minutes. But they haven't booked a single
qualified meeting. Well, they haven't got a problem saying
hello, starting a call, having a conversation, getting past early
objections, wherever there's something going wrong at the end
of those conversations, because nothing's coming out of them. I
can spot that just from the maths, before I've even met
Sharon, or here's Sharon. She's done 180 dials today, and her
average call length is 28 seconds, right? You're not
getting anywhere near a conversation. Let's look at your
call list, your sheet, your messaging, your voice tone, your
how you're opening the call up. Could do that before we've even
listened to a call, yeah, but that is not management. That's
coaching and development and
support. It's using the data to find the clues where to spend
your time. Exactly the clues are either. So here's what, here's
what I want to focus on now, leading training and coaching
sales teams. Yeah, let's look at it. First of all, from
inheriting a thing. So you you inherited sales teams a couple
of times, by the looks of it,
yeah, it's all. We've built them around me or whatever, but I've
had sales teams. Yeah. What advice
would you give to someone that's about to inherit a sales team.
Straight
advice is put your ego in the bin. And this is the thing.
Quite often people have inherited a sales team because
they're a good seller, which is no reason to give somebody a
sales team, because it's almost the opposite skill set that you
need. So one put your ego in the bin. You're now a leader. This
is not about you at all. Yes, you might have been good, but it
doesn't mean you can tell people. Well, what I did was, if
I were you, I'd that's the last thing people want. So one, you
got to put your ego in the bin. It's not about you. Two, you're
probably going to make less money than the people sat in
front of you. Good. If you're helping them make loads of
money, you're being a good leader. Yeah, you'll, you'll get
your benefit at some point. Next point I make, don't do anything
when you start. So many people go into a leadership position.
They want to put their stamp on it, don't they? This is how a
lead. We're going to change this. We're going to do that
differently from now on. Stop observe, get to know your team
first. What's going right? What's going wrong? Who are the
different characters in there? Just take a period of time to
observe and reflect. Great
advice. Give me a mistake you've made when you've started
managing a sales team that you've inherited.
You know what? Really, honestly, I've loved the attention and the
title and all the stuff that goes with it. It's, it's ego
led, yeah, and I've, I've tried to lead before now by telling
people what to do. I've tried to lead by just do it my way. Trust
me, I was really good at this. I've led by incentive,
ridiculous incentive, which doesn't work. I've led by do
this, or I'll shout, you know, I've made every embarrassing
mistake in the book. Why? Because it's probably how I was
led. This is where we see sales leaders come in. Is you lead,
how you were led? And my first, in any way, sales leadership
role I came out of, in hindsight, a very masculine Wolf
of Wall Street Style, scream if you want to go faster culture.
That was how I was led. You know, I was brought up with
buyers or liars close them or they close you, either way a
sale is made. Give us a date, an expiry date, and it was all
banging fists on the tables and all this real macho sort of
culture. So that's how I led. I cringe looking back at how I
used to act with people. Why? Because it made me feel better
about myself. It made me feel important. What a Biff, What a
dreadful way of looking at things. Yeah, when you look at
all the best leaders you've had, and this is one of the stories,
one of the questions asked at beginning of a lot of training
when we're talking about sales leadership, isn't, name your
best leader, name your best manager. Name your favorite
teacher. Everybody's got a favorite teacher, haven't they?
Who's your favorite teacher? Mark? Can you
remember? So I probably go back to I think about this person a
lot. Actually. It's weird to ask that his name was Mr. Brace I
think it was in year four. So long, long, long time ago. Yeah,
but I remember Mr. Braceford more than most teachers, primary
school teacher, obviously. What
is it about Mr. Braceford that stands out to I
felt like he was I felt like he was a big champion for me. So I
was the youngest in the class. July, baby birthdays tomorrow. I
was the youngest in the class. I I wasn't very bright at that
age. Obviously, it's an easy joke to be made about not being
that bright now, but we won't go there. I remember there was just
certain things I struggled with, like, like spelling longer
words, reading out loud to the class, but I always felt like he
put his arm around me, Tom was gonna be okay. Always fed back
to my parents that, you know, look, he's struggling with this,
but he's trying really hard. I believe in Mark, I remember once
in particular, it was a really, like daunting experience. We had
to write an address like you would in the letter. And if you
think like the way the address, it kind of goes in dense and in,
right? And he had it on the board, and he said, I want
everybody to write this address on a shit paper exactly how you
sit on the board. And I remember kids didn't do it exactly how it
was on the board. They kind of wrote it straight so, you know,
first name, address, all in a straight line. And he walked
around and he just started going, wrong. Start again,
wrong, start, again, wrong, start. And I remember like just
every time he said wrong, he was coming towards my desk, and I
thought, I've not done it perfectly. Mine's not quite
indented. And he went over. He went nice effort mark. And I
remember thinking he's let me off there. It was just something
in that moment. So, yeah, like, I just felt like he he's looked
after me there, he helps me out, he supports, encourages me, etc.
So, yeah, I'd say Mr. Braced.
Well, two things here. Then one, if Mr. Brace is still alive,
do you know what I'd love to find? I just know how to spell
that last name. I'm still not very
good at spelling. Have you gone and told him I wouldn't know how
to find it? One Amazing Thing to hear of somebody, by the way,
you made a massive impact on my life. Yeah, let's do that. The
second thing is, you championed you. Yeah? He gave you great
feedback, and he made you he lit up the room for you one day.
Yeah. Wasn't that what a great leader does? Yeah. So when
people are looking at wanting to be a sales leader, especially
various simplest exercises, who's your favorite teacher? Why
do that? Because they're the earliest leaders in our life.
They form a lot of ideas about great leadership without us
realizing it. Whereas we think of sales leadership as get sales
results, get the numbers in KPIs reports, it's not at all. It's
you are there to help those people in front of you be the
best that they can be at their job. It's all about them. When I
look back to my earliest days of sales leadership and team
leadership and everything, it was all about me. And I
absolutely cringe. I remember one day putting up, printing out
the day before call times and sellotaping them to the walls of
the office, to name and shame people. What a dick. But you
were given a senior job, a leadership job with zero
training, zero accountability, zero coaching. You were good at
doing that. Do this. Of course, it falls apart.
I talk about this all the time, like that. You're great at
sales. You get promoted, but you don't get the support in being a
great leader. So it is that do what I did, because that's what,
you know. How did you make that switch from being your own
words, bit of a dick here and there, making those mistakes to
get it right? How did you make that switch?
You know what? There's, there's a time that really stands out in
my mind. We went, I took, at the time I was, had a head of sales
training for when I say B to part of bt. Bt is a massive
beast. Yeah. So it was web clicks, advertising, online
advertising, SEO, all that sort of thing, B to B and I took some
of the sales team to an external trainer that the bigwigs had
brought in who were going to teach us how to coach, and it
was just a dreadful day. So I was in there with this team of
people. This girl came in very pleasant, but things that stand
out, she is mad in it. She had no shoes and socks on, and she
sat there with smelly feet in this room, and I could see my
team were going, what? What's going on? Like, you know? So
she's lost the room already. Then she spent the first half
hour just talking about herself and her IB for holiday. And then
she get really condescending, and everything my team would
bring up about how we do a sales approach, how we do whatever.
Oh, no, you don't do that. Really. And she was losing the
team really badly. And we got to one point where I took this
trainer to one side, and I said, I'm really sorry. I'm taking my
team out of her. And I didn't know, I suddenly felt quite
paternal towards them. I remember saying, we're going,
we're not we don't have to. It's a waste of our time. We don't
need this. You don't have to be spoken to like that. We're
going. And I suddenly felt that felt right. That was the right
thing. And you know when things just click in your head and I
was I need to be more paternal towards them. I need to put them
first. I need to have the wherewithal and the freedom to
go, No, this is my team. This is what's going to be best for
them. Everybody above me. You've put me in this position to lead
them. Well, leave me to it, give me some feedback. And I took
them out, and I wrote a very politically worded email about
why we'd done that, and the feedback I got was absolutely
the right move. Very well on like you showed leadership. And
I was like, right, I kind of get it now it's not about me, and it
kind of built up from there.
How easy is it for you when you work with sales leaders? Because
typically when a sales team is underperforming, yeah, I look to
the sales straight away. Yeah. How do you help them go on that
journey from realizing that and actually changing because it's
not their fault. They've been put in that position because of
their ability to sell, but now they need to change. How do you
work with them, to change the way in which they approach their
job to get the best out their team?
Yeah, it's a challenge, isn't it? So here to build the first
challenge is she's really the sales leader that's involved in
the decision to bring you in in the first place. Oh, yeah. And
how I operate is, I'm going to find out what your problem is
first, and then design and build training to solve that problem,
not just here's a course on this that's pointless. And quite
often we find out your sales team are actually quite good.
They're just not being led particularly well, and you've
got to be careful with that conversation. So the first thing
we look at is, and the first look at is and the first bit of
discovery we do is tell me about how often you give them
feedback, how often do they review their own meetings, their
own calls. Show me their action plans that they've got. What are
they each working on personally? Right now, none of that can be
delivered. All right. Tell me more about that. Has that ever
been in place? Tell me about how you get led. How do you get
coached? When do you get feedback as a leader? And we
just try and bring this consciousness up of, oh, there's
this whole layer of support missing right now. And then. The
second part is, we will not sell your training if you don't take
follow on coaching. We've got to embed it or a program for that
company to embed the training afterwards.
So I think I know the answer, because I'm with you. Stand
Alone training doesn't work. No, you need to follow on coaching.
But how are you absolutely strict? As you will not sell or
stand off training no matter what the circumstance without
the follow on coaching?
No, because you can operate a business like that, right? We
will say, Here's your follow on coach options. This is why you
have it. What we are strict on, though, and we very openly say,
if you just buy a one off half day course to solve a big
problem, keep your money to stick in plaster. It just
doesn't work. Because if it did, why wouldn't you spend 50 quid
on Amazon, buy everybody a book and hope they read it? Because
all you're doing is hoping they're going to use the
training. It's exactly the same thing. What we hear is, Well, if
we could just do a course on this, everything will be fine.
No, it wouldn't, because that's just not how it works. How are
you going to embed it? How are you going to follow it on? How
are you going to do this? Now, if they want to do it, that's
fine. You know, we're a business. At the end of the day,
we'll sell the training, but we will sell it with the open eyes.
We'll tell you right now, this won't work.
I think the problem there. And tell me if you think I've got
this wrong, but the sales leader just lives too much in a month
to month, quarter to quarter cycle of what can we do to get a
quick win, to get a quick fix? They're not thinking, right?
Let's grow our people, because we are going to get off this
hamster wheel every month, every quarter being a slog. Let's grow
our people. It might not have a massive impact immediately, but
it will change the game 612, months time, but that's just too
far away, and we live to this target on a monthly, quarterly
basis. And they go for the quick fixes. I often see sales leaders
when they opt for growing the people, the people that they
tell me aren't good enough, they lack XYZ skills, or give them
more leads. They go for more leads because they think, well,
just quickly, there's more volume. And I always say, but
you're just giving people that ill equipped more things to muck
up with.
Yeah.
How often do you walk away from a deal because you just get a
feeling from the manager? This is a waste of time. They're the
problem.
Oh, yeah. And there's red flags that over the last 13 years,
I've started to spot straight away. Here's a big red flag, and
without shooting myself in the foot for business, when HR
contacts me about trading. Right? And the verse, All right,
what's made you first think that you need to invest in training?
I've been asked to find some training, right? This is a tick
box exercise, isn't it? So HR can say we've done training, and
it's short termism, and I get it. Amount of people that that
will get inbound, looking for training, right? Well, we don't,
we can't really take everybody out for half a day. Well, if
your business model can't survive when you invest in your
team for half a day, there's a much bigger challenge going on
here, isn't there? There's a much bigger problem going on
here, that if you can't take the team out for just half a day to
do long term investment and develop them, then we need to
dig a lot deeper on that. And yes, there is a cost to a
business on taking people out to train them, but all that says to
me is, you don't really believe in the power of the training.
Let's talk about training and coaching. First of all, I feel
like I have a very clear, distinct definition of the
difference, yeah, but I want to hear your definition of what
difference for you between training and coaching.
I've often tried to sum this up. I heard, I don't know who said
it, so if I'm stealing somebody's quote, I apologize.
It definitely wasn't me. Training is answering somebody's
questions. Coaching is questioning somebody's answers.
Nice. This is clear definition for me. Training is taking some
people that need some new skills and helping them develop those
skills and showing them for the first time, coaching is
questioning somebody so they come up with the answer
themselves. So it's more long term, it's embedded. It's making
them realize, actually, you can't do this already. It's just
getting out of them.
So let's imagine we are a sales manager. We've got that team,
and they resonate with the following. You know, every
month, every quarter. It just feels hard on what it should be.
It's a bit of a slog. We sometimes get there. We
sometimes don't. Sometimes we overachieve, but it hamster
wheel. We know that we want to change this. We need to grow the
team, their confidence and competence. What is the key to
successfully training and coaching a sales team.
Million dollar question. If I could answer it in a sentence,
I'll be sat on a yacht doing this interview right now. There
is no silver bullet is one, so let's strip that right back. You
mentioned two things there, competence and confidence. Yeah,
let's put confidence in the bin. Okay? It's a made up word.
There's no such thing as a confident person. We're just
more or less confident in different situations. So first
of all, I wouldn't even consider looking at the confidence piece.
Confidence comes with feeling comfortable knowing what you're
doing. Yeah, Confidence comes with being in a situation that
you're confident in. So right now we're in this fabulous
studio that you build in this great stuff. Say I was an
unconfident person. I didn't want to pick up the phone, I
didn't want to ask deeper questions. I didn't want to ask
for a next step, because I'm not confident. Suddenly, a tiger
walked in this studio now, and I was the only person to have seen
it, I wouldn't go, well, I won't mention that tiger, because I'm
not very confident. I'd suddenly go, there's a tiger. Yeah,
everybody out suddenly. I'd be really confident. Why the
Situation's changed. Don't worry about confidence. First, change
the situation, and the confidence comes. How do you
change the situation where you have to deal with the world as
it is, not the world as you'd like it to be. So first of all,
you've got to put to one side, what are your perceptions of
what's going on and what's actually going on? Because
there's no point dealing in perception. So point A What can
you actually observe, not feel or perceive or have an opinion
on, and that means one record. Are you listening to what's
actually being going on? Have you got your ear to the ground
on what's being said and done? Not the feedback on it. What's
actually being said and done? Are teams meetings being
recorded? Are you on the road with your team sitting, watching
what's going on? Are you having meetings about CRM and pipeline
and questioning, okay, you've put them at 80% tell me what's
going on, why they're 80% Oh, we got on really well. They had
nice biscuits, right? This is all perception. So rule one is
you've got to deal with the world as it is, not as you'd
like it to be, and that means you've got to either get the
tech or find the way to observe what's actually happening with
your team, all training and coaching has to start from that
point, or you're just going to end up in an echo chamber. I
love that. One of the questions I like to ask sales leaders when
they when they tell me the problems their sales team have,
I like to say and just to understand, do you think that to
be true, or do you know that to be true? And it's amazing. I
think that's true. So one of the challenges that I I hear from
sales leaders is, let's move on from they they've been promoted,
and they're great sales rep, and they lack knowing how to do it.
But actually it's the challenge of managing and training and
coaching salespeople. So the different personality. T's a
different needs, a different skills and competence gaps. You
know, lots of the persons might be similar in terms of level of
ego, etc, but it is just, how do I take let's just say the
average person's got 10 in their team, yeah, but it's two between
eight and 12, right? Yeah. How do they approach that? Lots of
people just opt for the blanket approach a man in a room, woman
in a room, on Zoom, whatever teaching the same thing doesn't
work because of the different needs the room, the different
egos, different personalities. How does a manager break that
down and create a successful training and coaching plan?
It's a great question, because you and we've said we said it
before, and I know there's lots of different iterations of it,
isn't it, but managing a sales team is, is trying to get cats
in a basket. Well, the baskets on fire, and you're in a bed of
nettles and just a swarm of wasps has just been released
into the office. But it just isn't, you know, we're just
dealing with people here. So how do you build it? Well, first of
all, first question I ask in most training situations, how do
I benchmark it? I'm doing observations, so I'll go right.
Point A is, this is what I've observed. Point B, what would a
world class sales team do? That's point B, the bit in the
middle is what that training and coaching program needs to be. So
this is what we've observed. And if you dotted everybody on a
line, there are different places on that line. But a is what's
been observed, that is actually happening now, and how different
is everybody point B, we have to agree, what would a world class
sales team look like? What would have to be different here to be
at the other end of the line, and then everybody, individually
has got a different way to get to be. So some might need really
intensive one to one coaching. Other people just need a nudge
here and there. Some people just need a wake up call. Here's a
bomb. You could probably half the size of your team. Some
people shouldn't be there. It's a really horrible thing for
sales leaders to hear, but most sales teams could get the same
results on about 50% of their account. How often
do you recommend that case by case basis? Isn't
it? But isn't it amazing? You see a lot of teams lose people
and oh well, we'll just infill for now, and nothing changes.
Look at lockdown. How many people got furloughed, and then
sales leaders went, Well, you've not actually been here for three
months, and your sales results haven't changed. What have you
been doing? You know, a lot of people got found out that way.
And I know that's a really harsh message, but it's, it's a fair
message. Really see what's going on. Talk
to you about the lone wolves, the sales reps that do things
their own way are often here. Managers describe those people
in the team, and they don't know what to do with them, right?
They say, don't think they respond well to training and
coaching. They're they're sort of hitting their number here and
there. But equally, they're vulnerable, because they could
just leave at any point and they rely on them, etc. What would
you say to a manager, how to get the best out of that person and
train and coach them and work with them?
Lone wolves. I love lone wolves. I love seeing what makes them
tick. It's usually a defense mechanism that's making a lone
wolf tick. They're terrified of being found out, or they've put
this ego up as a helmet against what could come in. They could
find other than all very good you have some lone wolves. And
we all know these people. You never see them. You never hear
them on the phone. You never know whether they're out meeting
on Zoom or whatever. They're just, what are you doing? Like,
why don't we fire this person? Every month they hit quota,
like, they always bring them. We don't know how they do it,
because some people just fly under the radar. How do you deal
with these people? Well, one realize that, and this is where
you've got to coach everybody in a team is sometimes your lone
wolves or your big hitters, or your people that are fine, or
whatever you scratch a millimeter beneath the surface,
they're an absolute mess. Quite often. I'm sure my sales coach
you get this is, oh, we just want to focus the coaching on
these people. These people are doing fine. So what would be the
expense to the business if you lost the people that are doing
fine? Oh, well, actually, one of them brings in 30% of the year's
revenue, right? Let's start with them, because if you lose them,
that's going to have a massive impact. And you go out for
coffee with them, and you have a chat, tell me a bit about this.
How's that working out? Blah, blah, and you find out the two
weeks off handing the noticing. But they never have that chat.
They never get looked at. They never get taken out for the
coffee. Why? Because they're always doing fine. They're a big
hitter. They love it. They're doing great. Be really careful
with them, because these are humans. They're going to be
fragile. So with your lone wolves, with your big hitters,
with whatever you've got, to treat them the same as everybody
else, just a good coach should be able to adapt their coaching
style for the person that's put in front
of them. Fascinating. I think that the challenge you see there
is the lack of confidence, yeah, to take that lone wolf on. But.
Particularly when, if they're a lone wolf and they're in the
business, it's because they're doing
well, there's some phraseology in there, isn't it? Take them
on, really. People see this is going to be adversarial. If you
only ask questions, you cannot be adversarial. It's only
adversarial when you tell people what to do or give them advice.
Nobody wants advice, do they Oh, if I was you, I do. Nobody wants
that. Put your head in the bin. But if you ask somebody a really
good question, it's not adversarial, you'll make them
think. And you know what, they won't respond at first anyway.
But you cannot not answer a question. You can't not answer a
question, who sang thriller? Don't even think of the answer.
King of Pop. Yeah. You can't not think What did you offer
breakfast? Don't even think of the answer. I didn't have any.
You can't not. Yeah. I was running a session the other
week, and we were talking about questioning, skills, coaching,
questioning and discovery questioning. So Ross, let's talk
about some questions that are nothing to do with sales. Try to
not answer this question. So, right. Okay, we got right.
Let's, let's do some slightly deeper questions. I'll ask you
them now. Mark, okay, you don't have to answer them. Okay, what
if you put on hold in your life that you shouldn't have done
losing weight? There we go. So it's not too deep a question,
yeah, what sort of person do you know you're capable of being
that you wouldn't want to be? Oh,
this is deep. What sort of person am I capable of being
that I know I wouldn't want to be. We can obviously edit out
the thinking time.
Well, no, I think the thinking time is great, because if you
don't need thinking time, it's not a very good question. So if
you think about when you're coaching somebody, if you're
asking questions that are at the front, yeah, have you got
glasses on? Are you wearing shoes? Have you had a good day,
how do you think you're doing? They're just answering straight
away, because you're not engaging them. They're not
making people think, yeah, if you ask a question, where you
have to go in your hard drive? So 90% of the human brain is
hard drive. Everything you've ever thought, smelled, touched,
experienced in your life is in there. Challenge is, we've got a
shit RAM. We can't access this stuff very easily. Then
randomly, you'll be in a department store or something,
and you'll smell something, and your brain goes, Oh, Christmas
Day, 2010 what? And smell can bring back of it. Everything's
in there, in the same part of the brain where all that stored
is where your emotions live. Now, if all decisions are
irrational. Which they are, all decisions are irrational. So
best definition I've ever heard of what a decision is. A
decision is a prediction of how you're going to feel. So think
of any decision you ever make. It's a prediction of how you're
going to feel. So for what sort of coffee would you like? Right?
You're predicting how you're going to feel when you're
drinking that coffee in the future, when you're having that
tell me about your ideal holiday, or what holiday should
we book? We'll book that one. Why? Because I've predicted how
I'll feel sat on that beach. Doing that, here's a menu.
You're predicting how you're going to feel when your food
arrives, when you eat it, when you taste it, when you feel
full. Everything is a prediction of how you're going to feel. So
it's an emotional decision. Only a good question can get to that
part of the brain where the emotions live. And it's the
emotion that will make a decision, and whether that
decision is to buy something as a salesperson or to change
something as a sales, person should so a good coach, a good
leader, doesn't need to be the best salesperson. They don't
need to have the answers. They need to be really good at
helping the person you're talking to come up with the
answers. So
was that almost like the point then when the first question
just gave you an answer the second question, I really
struggled. I was trying to think to you've had
to use your RAM to go back into the part of your brain where
emotions and memories live, yeah, and thoughts live now
sometimes, and this is the bit that I love. When you're
coaching people, especially, they can't find the answer in
there. It's in there, yeah, they grooving around. And they go, I
just don't you know what will happen. Three days later, up
comes the answer. If you ever listen to a song on the radio
and go, Ah, I loved this. Who was this by and you just can't
remember the band's name, and you carry on with you day, and
that's it. Three days later, you're having a shower or
something, and you go, Rem, where the hell's that come from?
The answer just pops into your head. Second you've been asked a
question that part of your brain just keeps working on it. So if
you've got your lone wolf, if you've got your big hitter who's
not sure what to do next, get better at asking them the
questions that will make them think, because they're the only
person that's going to change themselves. Can't convince
anybody of anything. Here you go. Mark, you've got a day and
you can have a day out. Okay, yeah, you can go wherever you
want for this day out, within budget and physics, yeah, yeah,
a favorite place, but it's entirely up to you. The weather
can be as great as you need it to be. And you can invite
anybody you want to come with you on this day out. However, at
the end of the day, wherever you are with the people that you've
gone with, as the sun's going down, it's going to be your last
day. You're going to die that evening. This is the last time
you're there with these people ever. Where'd you go? Who'd you
bring with you? I. And as the sun's going down, what do you
say to them?
That's it out. You actually want answers that
no, but you'll have one. I'm sorry, I feel emotional, but
you'll have an answer at some point it comes in. Why? Because
it's a question. That's the emotional part of the brain.
That's where we're going. Yeah. Now imagine if, in sales and in
sales coaching, you can help somebody feel what it would be
like to work with you. Feel what it would be like to have their
problem solved. Feel what it would be like in three months,
once this big, awful problem's gone away, well, they're now
coming up with that decision to buy or to change their sales
approach. Why? Because a decision is a prediction of how
you're going to feel. If you can't help somebody feel, you
can't help them predict how they're going to feel. There's
no decision there to be had, and all a great coach is doing is
help somebody make the decision to change. And a lone wolf can
make that decision to change, a top hitter can make that
decision to change, but until they make that decision you
mentioned before, Mark, I hope you don't mind saying that,
putting off losing weight, yeah, until you've made that decision,
it'll never change. I know people who are trying to quit
smoking, but they've not quite decided that they want to quit
smoking, yet they'll never quit smoking. So lone wolves, top
hitters, run the mill, whatever great coaching in salespeople is
questioning their answers, not answering the questions, because
that's where all the good stuff lies.
What? What an amazing bit of dialog you just given us there.
Yeah, incredible. I want to start taking back, because I'm
still just emotionally thinking about this day. It's so funny,
the day changed in my mind, because first I was thinking,
Oh, just go somewhere with a wife. Well, actually, my first
answer is, do so by myself. And I thought, oh, no, should
probably take the wife along. And then when I heard the MB, I
was like, well, I need my kids there, you know? And now we're
not doing anything for me and the wine. We're doing something
for the kids. You know what I mean? Like, what a great
question. Really sort of gave her on
detail, on sales questions. I don't want people listening to
this going in this meeting today. I know. So here's one
funny. I was doing some training the other year. Great group of
people around the table. We were just talking language skills and
everything about sales is the use of language, self
development is its use of language, getting success is
just the use of language. Selling anything is used
language. Customer Services, use of language. And there was a
fabulous girl in this training. She was really into it, you
know, she was, like, really soaking it all up and asking
questions, really, really like this girl. And we did this
questioning stuff around the table. And I asked this girl,
she was only in her early 20s, and I eyeballed her and just
said, what if you put on hold in your life that you just
shouldn't have done. And took her about three seconds, and
she's no word of like, she burst into tears and ran out the room,
and I was like, Oh, I've broken one of your team. I'm sorry. And
she went out, she quit, she actually quit her job. And I was
like, I'm not being funny. That is an extreme reaction, like,
I've never seen that before. So turns out, when we dug down a
little bit, she'd been in a relationship with a few years
with a guy, and then she met him, she was about to go and be
a dancer, and she put it all on hold for this relationship. And
like, four days before she happened to be asked that
question by me, this guy had finished her and left so where
I'd asked, What is a back of brain, deep, emotional question?
The answer wasn't back there. It was right. It was right at the
front. Now, if you ever get asked a deep make you think
question, and you can answer it like that, you should probably
do something about that. Yeah, if it's that forefront of Mary,
you know these really common questions like, What would you
regret most in life if you never did anything about it? If you
can just go, I've just got to do this really quickly. If it's
that near the surface, go and do something about it that's
clearly really important to you. So yeah, learn really, really
cool questions.
Let's, let's start to wrap the conversation, Chris, because I
feel like I could spend another couple of hours with you, and we
will, we just won't record and edit and we'll just go the pub
and do it. What's the most common flaw you see in sales
managers using the
myth that they haven't got time to look after their team,
because everything else should be secondary.
What's the one thing you've seen sales professionals add to their
game that takes them to the next level tech
that helps them get rid of admin? Got an
example for us, a
lot of companies now using some advanced AI tools. We've been
speaking to companies about it to do so many layers of your
sales admin and so much of your CRM edition that they're
spending more time having conversations. Everything that
isn't having a conversation isn't a sales activity. I mean,
we know these stats have come out. What is it from sales loft,
32% of a salesperson's time is actually spent selling well,
like. You're a race driver, I want you racing the car. If
you're a mechanic, I want you in my engine, doing stuff. If
you're my salesperson, I wouldn't have in a conversation.
Biggest thing you can do as a sales manager is take everything
off your sales team that isn't sales activity.
When you said tech, tech, I was expecting you say otter. What
piece of advice would you give to someone looking to step up
into their first leadership
role. Oh, ask yourself, why you want to do it? Do you really
want to be a leader? What's your moment? Is it because you see it
as you get the glory and the honor? Because I'm now a leader,
it's a dreadful reason to do it. You're probably going to take a
pay cut, and it's no longer about you, you know, just really
look into it first, because it can be a poison chalice. And
then last question, this is specifically for you. Okay, I've
been told that you love LinkedIn. Posts about bringing
the value, leaving the value. Tell us about that.
Okay, so I think what you get in that as a whole is there's a lot
of buzzword bingo suddenly on LinkedIn isn't there. And we
found this out when we did clubhouse. If in doubt, just say
value. And it sounds like I've got an answer to this, yeah. And
I think we really need to stop this crap. Yeah. We need to
drill down on value, lead with value, increase the value. Just
bring value. And when you go, Oh, give me an example of what
you mean, it's just buzzword bingo. They can't, yeah, and I
kind of get where it's coming from, but let's just fancy talk.
Doesn't you know what's other buzzword bingo that's been
happening recently values them a massive player for me at the
moment, and I pull people on it straight away. Give me an
example. Exactly what do you mean? And most people can't,
because they've just heard somebody else say it. Ah,
there's a phrase at the moment for when you're going in as a
sales director, but you're not really there. You like
parachuted in. Well, parachute in is another one. Fractional,
fractional. Suddenly, everything's fractional, and
it's just trends, isn't it? And I'm all right with that, but I'm
a bit of a curmudgeon old git Now,
Chris, genuinely, really, really enjoy this episode. There's been
moments where you've shared insightful stories, funny
stories. There's moments where you've really made me think and
feel a little bit emotional with some of the questions you've
asked me, like you've taken me back to when I was in school,
absolutely terrified of Mr. Brace, of walking around the
classroom. You made me think about how to spend my last down
Earth. There's so much more I know we could get from our time
together, but let's bring it to a close. We can always do
another episode. How can people find more of you and your stuff?
I'm all
over LinkedIn. You can't miss me on there. Look for Chris Dawson
on LinkedIn. Go and find the sales Dojo podcast that's on
Apple, Spotify, Amazon. Everywhere you go, go and look
for sixth door, which is the worst business name ever,
because nobody, everybody, how, what? What is it? Floor, sixth.
How do we spell that? Just Google. Sales Training,
Liverpool. Sales Training, UK. Sales Training, Northwest.
You'll see me pop up if they want to chat. You know what?
Phone me up. Nobody phones you up anymore. Do they should do
and welcome to have a chat with anyone. It's been great having a
chat with yourself.
Matt, love that. Thanks, Chris, thanks coming up. Cheers,
man. You.