[00:00:00] Dan: Welcome back to we, not me, the new podcast all about how humans connect to get stuff done. I'm Dan Hammond. 

[00:00:12] Pia: And I am Pia Lee.

[00:00:14] Dan: And how are you doing in lockdown? Pia Lee? 

[00:00:17] Pia: I purchased a lifelong dream this week. I bought a Ute, a utility truck, and this has been a long held coveted dream. And I achieved it this week. The family is delighted. And it has been well used. So that has reduced the tedious misery of lockdown and given us something more exciting to think about.

[00:00:38] Dan: The retail relief of COVID lockdown. I've been there myself, but I must say I bought smaller items than a, that this is one of these cars with a open back then you can chuck things into as it is that's very Australian the idea of a ute, that's what we're talking about, isn't it? 

[00:00:55] Pia: That's what we're talking about. It's got a tray, so it's been to the tip and it's been to the lockup because of course the other thing that we decided to do is to move house in the middle of a lockdown and and put the house on the market and head out to the country. So don't know where we're going yet. But this little squad at home is on an adventure, I think.

[00:01:16] Dan: Wow. That's an extreme reaction to COVID I have to say but well done, you taking some initiative and getting a little squad somewhere else. That's exciting. And it's and then up here in the Northern hemisphere, things are pretty steady and I think we're doing pretty well, I think we're all just looking to the autumn now and see, what's see what's going to happen, but but of course all this COVID. It's it's sort of accelerating the subject of today's show, which is teams in a work from anywhere world. I'm really looking forward to talking about this. It's a hot topic, obviously, but I hope we can take some new angles on it. And it made me reflect a little bit as well on, on the sort of remote working that we've done over the years. 

[00:01:53] Pia: So we first met 13 years ago, and I thought that we were going to have a really long relationship working in Sydney until you told me after a relatively short period of time that you're going back to England. So we had to get wrap our heads around a long distance relationship with the team, mostly based in Sydney. How was that for you? 

[00:02:14] Dan: Well, that was really interesting cause I mean, I was pleased to be back in the UK and loved my time in Australia. It was the right thing. And I actually really took to working from home. I thought it'd be distracted staring into the fridge all the time but actually I found myself like people do now working really hard and not getting too distracted, which was a surprise to me. But the, one of the interesting was working as a remote person in a co located team was I did start to feel a little bit the odd one out, you know, everyone else was sitting around the table with all those little looks and sharing takeaways and things, and I'm sort of out there and it was always, it was interesting how that can start to distance you and I, and I feel there's some lessons there for people as we go back into potentially back into some what we used to call offices. 

[00:02:57] Pia: And that's what's so interesting because now here we are a decade on and we're all on the same equal playing field. And we're all operating out of living room, bedrooms, garages, and even if we're not in a lockdown, I think the latest figure for hybrid working that sometimes at work and sometimes not it's about 62% of workers are currently doing that globally. So there's a huge shift, and I think that's why we felt it was such an important topic to bring our guests today who has a lot of experience managing herself, but also the team that she leads and the organization she leads. And that is Michelle's Zamani who is the HR director from Sanofi and Zed, a health care company, and she's really thought long and hard about this, of how to support people, and it's got some really interesting insights. So I think it's going to be a really great discussion today. 

[00:04:03] Dan: Michelle. Welcome. Thank you so much for joining on the we, not me podcast. It's great to have you here.

[00:04:09] Michelle: Thanks, Dan. Lovely to be here. 

[00:04:12] Dan: Thank you so much. Tell us a little about your, feel about yourself to get us started. Where are you? What are you up to? Just get us warmed up, Michelle, if you could.

[00:04:19] Michelle: At my kitchen table like most people, I think in Sydney uh, I worked for a pharmaceutical company hitting our paycheck. So most of our workforce at the moment is working from home. Along with homeschooling. Yes. That's an interesting time.

[00:04:33] Dan: Great. Great. So I'm sure you've spent a lot of the last year or so thinking about this stuff, but I think my reflection looking, tracking LinkedIn and you know, all the research papers that are coming out now it's pretty confusing. People talk about the future of work, but actually let's get down to brass tacks here, W what's where are we going to be working? How's it going to work? You've been thinking about a fair bit. How would you see your way through all that complexity and all those messages?

[00:04:58] Michelle: Yeah. Th there is a lot of information out there, I think we have catapulted ourselves, at least 10 years into the future through COVID. And I think there's, as a result, there's sort of two questions. It you know, there is: the employer around, how do we want our people to work, but the more important one is our employees now having experienced being able to work from home, and removing that barrier around, or no, maybe it can't be done, it can be done, it has been done. And so now employees also really driving the conversation around Yeah, how do I want to work?

[00:05:33] So, really it is about the organization's now flipping it on its head and moving from an office based, you know, to that more human or employee centric around will help how do people want to work? W we've proven that, they can do it and that, the performance is pretty good. But how do we sustain that beyond a three months, four months, or, even 12 month window to that more, future, ways of working. 

[00:05:57] Pia: And there's so much flux isn't there. And I've had one of those days where I've talked to lots of people around the world. And I started with the guys in the U S and they were telling me that in San Francisco, only 19% of employees have gone back to work. And the rest of working from home and then, ran a session in Korea and they're all working from home and we've been locked down and we're in our 12th week. So that, that confusion, like how are you seeing employees managing that? 

[00:06:27] Michelle: Yeah, I think that there's kind of three things. I think really for me that leaders and organizations need to really lean into, and one is flexibility. We need to be really flexible around how our people work and where they want to work. And not, and have a think rather than about where they come to work, what type of work are they doing, and how do they get their best results from the type of work they're doing? Is it about if it's collaboration then yes, maybe it might be coming together. If it's very task-focused, then, do you really need to come into the office for that? If you're going to be on meetings all day, then and, or zoom calls to the point, you know, then do you need to commute into an office to sit, in front of a screen all day? So it really is putting it back into the employee and be really flexible. I think it really is about empathy based leadership. It, to your point, Pia, every country, is different.

[00:07:17] If you're in a global role and your team's all over the world, then you know, the conversation around how people are working in the U S versus Australia versus Korea is very different. So I think you really need to be, that empathic leadership, understanding what's going on asking those questions and being able to adjust and adapt and be flexible there.

[00:07:35] And then there is the, that intentional elements around collaboration and things that we took for granted in the office that, it's only now that we miss them, that we realize the benefit of them. And that water cooler conversation, that serendipitous moment where, you might actually have the briefest of contact with 20 or 30 colleagues in a day, but never actually been a meeting with them, and now that you're on Zoom, that's 30 connections you no longer have.

[00:08:04] So how do you be more I think deliberate, and more structured or planned around, carving out space for that. Otherwise, you get a week full of Zoom calls?

[00:08:14] Pia: There's no spontaneity, that's what it seems to me. The spontaneous connection of bumping into some on while you're ordering your coffee and then, oh, the sharing of ideas. That's the bit we're missing. 

[00:08:25] Michelle: Yeah, it is. It is. And we really, I don't think had a true appreciation of how important, even the briefest of connection, passing somebody on the stairs and saying, hi, how are you? How was your weekend or whatever, or, oh, that's right. I'll come back to you on that, let's catch up the coffee queue, walking to the toilet, whatever it might be. They are moments. You no longer have and they did make a difference. People felt more connected to leaders in the business, purely bypassing them in the car, in the corridor. And I think there elements that we need to think about how do we, how do we be more as I said, planned and I suppose a little bit more deliberate about finding ways to do that because we no longer need to be deliberate about being task orientated, meeting orientated, people are filling up diaries. When they see a blank spot, we need to sort carve out space to be serendipitous and and for those more connections.

[00:09:18] Dan: I think the other thing I've observed is the, how, well, certainly people say that you see that we struggle, then we lose the S the serendipity, and also the depth, the sort of emotional side of relationships and the connection side.

[00:09:31] I guess that's a question of being more deliberate about that as well, I certainly tried to do some things and we try and do some things in our work to take that time and make sure that we're getting a little bit into the human side of things. How have you seen that, that work? And have you seen, what changes have you seen there?

[00:09:47] Michelle: I think, I think there's being some iteration of that, so when we first went into lockdown and working from home, you had this, everyone was doing, virtual drinks and coffee catch-ups and trying to, there was this overload or people felt like, maybe not overload that people felt that you needed to, sort of go to everything and accept everything, so. It was a bit of that fear of missing out and it was new. And so, because it was new and different. And but now as we're, we're seeing that this is, we need to do something that's sustainable, it's about, reading that. The energy levels of your team and putting in different things and being flexible about whether people attend, so we have, virtual drinks, once a fortnight. And we initially it was every week that was too much, then we did once a month and that was not quite enough because, if someone missed it, that was like two months before we had that kind of connection for them, so once a fortnight, we sort of landed on you know, That works. If you miss one, it's not the end of the world, maybe do coffee, catch ups, I've got a virtual cooking. If it's Are You Okay day tomorrow. And our team are doing a virtual, cooking, team building where 

[00:10:52] Pia: what's cooking. What are you doing? 

[00:10:53] Michelle: I don't know, cause I've got a list of ingredients, so they haven't given us what it is. These are the ingredients you've got to go and buy. This is what you need to have. And two of the team are being our chefs, and then we're just going to have a bit of fun with it for a couple of hours tomorrow afternoon. 

[00:11:07] So, it's just playing around and testing things and learning and going, okay. That was a bit too much. Let's pair it back. Getting feedback and just, and working, finding out what works, and some meetings like our coffee catch-up, there is no structure, there is no agenda, it's, we put it out there, who's got an issue that they want to solve. Let's meet Linda's new puppy, whatever it might be. And that's a way to connect and sort of bring that, I think that laughter and fun and what's going on for everybody personally. 

[00:11:36] Pia: It's having to restructure what It is. to be human. Isn't It that's what you're having to work hard actually at doing. And that must be hard when you're all a bit exhausted from all the communication part of it as well. I mean, it's, everyone's under quite a lot of intense pressure to deliver in an quite an intense set of external pressures as well. So trying to be creative in all that, that's hard work too. 

[00:11:59] Michelle: It is. I think that innovation and collaboration, they're the elements that we need to, we need to be a lot more conscious about. The task, and all that. And a lot of our meetings can easily become very task focused. I've got a half hour block or 25 minute block out of half an hour. This is what we need to get done, you know where we're at. Okay. Next. So making sure that we're more deliberate around carving out that collaboration time I've ended up, almost trying to starting with the intent of having every morning as purely just my time to do the things I need to do to either think, to reach out to a few people and just check in on them, but you know, to really my own time to get some of the stuff I want to do and whether that's collaboration or whether that's innovation. And if it ends up in a week that only three out of those days end up being truly, clear of meetings, then that's awesome, but if I start at five, then, I'll end at three. If I end up, if I start at three, then I'll probably only end up at one. So I try and maximize and then, I can be really really specific or selective around what I let in on those mornings. And that works for me. I think the other members of the team do things a little bit differently, they try and have a Friday that's free and things like that, but you do need to be deliberate.

[00:13:09] And I think the other thing. You mentioned Dan that, everyone's at home, so all of a sudden your family become your work colleagues in some respects. And I think for me, I didn't appreciate everyone talks about the commute, oh, I love working from home because that I'd have to be in the, in the traffic, for an hour or whatever it might be. And I don't miss the traffic, and I that's without a doubt, but I, that, that time for me was a way for me to decompress, I'd come, I'd drive home, I'd think about my day, the conversations I've had, what I might need to do the next day. So by the time I did arrive at home, I was ready to go. Okay. Right. And the same with the mornings, that commute would be okay. You don't want me to have a conversation with what is, so it'd be that, that planning in some respects. And I've now tried to do that at home because I was, not my family was not happy with me when I'd get off a call at five 30 and then start barking orders around well where's dinner and what's it, and I didn't have that decompression. I was still in work mode, so, 

[00:14:05] Pia: Do they not serve dinner up for you Was it, did you not come off the calls? And there was a three-course meal every night. 

[00:14:11] Michelle: I know, I was like, well, have you not started? Do you know what's going on? And I'm still in work mode and they're going to go and, can you just, just chill out, we're not, so yeah, so I, now I try and make sure I always, walk the dogs in the morning or, do something just to have a bit of reflection space before I, go into Okay, and what are these for dinner or whatever someone has or hasn't done. 

[00:14:31] Dan: Yeah, it's interesting that the office sort of, that, that rhythm sort of in a way, I do believe it's sort of very, it's quite old fashioned. It goes back to the industrial revolution, doesn't it? Show up for work at a certain time at a certain place. And then at some point someone's going to tell you, you can go home and you go home. It's really, when you look at it very archaic, but it has given us that sort of rhythm of life. Hasn't it. And have you found, if you've seen people getting a little bit sort of untethered by that, just getting a bit lost. What's the impact of that being on people?

[00:15:02] Michelle: I think definitely particularly in, and maybe even more so in lockdown when you know, schools aren't, you, haven't got, people are homeschooling. So I think, it's, there's a lot of pressure and making sure employees feel that they can take that pressure off and, just do what you can, everyone's kind of, in similar boats I think is really important.

[00:15:20] As far as just focusing and if you didn't have the working from home, the homeschooling as well. I think definitely getting people used to the fact that, and managers sometimes in particular, now, if you are going into the office, you don't have to be there at night. If you want to leave. 10 and get in at 11 and leave at four because that's what the structure of your day and the conversations that you're having allow you to do then do that and miss peak hour altogether. And so it's getting that it's definitely going, the start and finish of your day, doesn't it doesn't have to be dictated by, that nine to five. And it is definitely work-life integration. Do you know, but just make sure that, work doesn't overtake everything and making sure people are carving out space for themselves I think, whether that be physical, mental innovation, and whatever, just make sure that, you're proactive in that, and not reactive 

[00:16:09] Dan: And there's dark Michelle, you said we've advanced 10 years. I mean, if we zoom out and look at this whole thing, big picture, you are for a global pharma company. What are the benefits of this advance? What's in a big picture for what are the real pluses for the, for an organization like yours?

[00:16:28] Michelle: If, as an organization, we truly embrace it I think from a talent perspective, it puts a whole different lens on that. You're looking at, you can get talent from anywhere. The world isn't flat, we do have more than one time zone and sometimes we have to remind our global colleagues or, people about that, but it, it genuinely does give you a view of your talent beyond, someone who needs to be face-to-face in wherever the head office is, and I think that's huge. So from a diversity perspective, our ability to get different voices around the table in really important decisions is more doable than it ever has been. =And========/ I think more acceptable than it ever has been, and people, now, more. Relaxed the, about, someone contributing from their home environment and, they're not in a suit and tie. So, I think, Sanofi is French and the business attire or even the smart casual between France and Australia was vastly different, before COVID, you know, now, it's a little bit closer.

[00:17:24] Pia: We're all wearing. T-shirts 

[00:17:26] Michelle: Yeah, it's a little bit more acceptance around. It's not, it's not what you wear, that's going to dictate the quality of the conversation or input. So there's a little bit more empathy there. And I also think also you're looking at, yeah the best person for the job, irrespective of where they might be in the world. But there is also a conscious lens of, what is sustainable to, so, you have to have give and take on both sides of the globe if you are truly going to make a global team operate effectively, 

[00:17:53] Pia: I mean, it's interesting, isn't it? Because you think of some of the funniest things in the corporate world, that up until the beginning of last year, Except tiddly and I like that the spots in the car park and, and the type of office that you had and, the corporate armor, the type of attire you bore, and now all of that has gone, and we could work from anywhere.

[00:18:18] To, so how have people coped with that? How have you seen that leaders of teams? Have they coped when all the ways that they've been developed over the years and some of the expectations they've changed?

[00:18:32] Michelle: I think it doesn't matter what you're facing. What I've seen here is it's almost a third, it's a third that have taken to it like a duck to water, they honestly have, they've embraced it. You know, They're leaning into it. They're open to the conversations, and probably were always, further along the path, even before COVID around flexibility and really championing in that. And you know, working from anywhere.

[00:18:54] You've got a third who, you know, that next third who we're a little bit unsure, and struggled a little bit, but have embraced it, you know, and probably the ones who really wanted to get more information and asking a lot more questions, but they definitely are, you know, not quite ducks to water, but they're, they're definitely on the path and could have been the ones that said, oh, maybe it's not for all roles that COVID has proven that to be most roles unless you're, manufacturing or something.

[00:19:20] And then you've got the third or maybe a bit less than a third. That are really wanting to be able to see all their people. And even when we have opened up the office, and said, we want people roughly there 50% of the time. So that's kind of, from a social perspective, we want, we want that collaboration and that interaction. You know, They've tried to line up their people to make sure that everyone's in on the same days, so they've, they have struggled with it a little bit more. And I think, some will get there. I think some will continue, we'll continue to struggle. But that's kind of what I've seen is that, sort of a third, roughly maybe roughly a third.

[00:19:52] And I think one thing that I have seen probably in that middle third, or maybe even the lower end is they've struggled to articulate what it is that is missing. And so, what they do then is they go they want to go to what they know. Yeah. So they struggle to understand what's missing and put a words around it, so then they want to revert back to, well, let's just go back to how it was because that worked. And I think what has been really beneficial for us is, and for a lot of our teams is we've used Squadify, a team-based tool for teams which has really helped employees and managers articulate how they want to work together and what is missing, and therefore, when they do come into the office, what do they want to come into the office for? You know, So when you look at what is different and how they're connecting or not connecting that has been a fantastic tool to sort of create the language you know, that then goes, okay, that's what's been missing and this is what we're going to do about it. And it's actually being given managers and employees, the con the right tools to have the conversation around what are we going to come into the office for? Cause we just don't want to come into the office for, what we did previously. So, and, or, and not even the office, what are we going to come together for? So it doesn't have to be the office. It can be, but, so that has been really useful. And so far, I think for all of them, All the squat defies we've done one of the biggest gap that they have all agreed on has been connectedness.

[00:21:23] I made this comment today is that one issue with zoom? Is it, everyone stays in their lanes. You can't look sideways on a zoom call, and I think, so what it does drive, if you don't start to have conversations about it and create, that platform to have that conversation is people to stay in their lane, they become very individualistic, focused on their task and not necessarily looking sideways, and I think that's what we need to do more of

[00:21:48] Dan: That's great to hear and obviously great to hear you using Spotify. And I imagine that any data that you can get was thinking about psychometric tools and things where people can talk about their own profiles is a neat way to deepen relationships without people having to sort of create that conversation for themselves.

[00:22:03] Michelle: Yeah, absolutely. So whether it's, there's a whole range of, team-based and and preference based tools, and they definitely help, and even the way we've evolved in the last 12 months about. Yeah, it doesn't have to all be zoom. The fact that, people do listen and listen differently, audio versus visual. And so, turning your camera off doesn't necessarily mean that you're not paying attention. But it is a way of managing your energy while still participating.

[00:22:32] Dan: here's a contentious question. Michelle, everyone, w we've talked a lot about this sort of lack of connection. How deep do you think the connection was in the office days? Were people think, oh, because I can see them I'm connected to them. Or do you think that this actually even provides us with an opportunity to be more deliberate about really getting to know people, seeing them in a more natural state, understanding them better? Because sometimes, certainly speaking as a bread, I've got my mates down the pub. We don't really talk about anything profound in any way and sort of get to know each other. 

[00:23:04] Michelle: I do think that, the zoom or, as I was born an element of authenticity and, and more empathy and a greater understanding of the challenges everyone's been in it. So, there's nothing like. A common enemy COVID sort of bring people together, and so I do think, there is that, that, that vulnerability and understanding that it has, that has definitely a skill that there's definitely escalated. Whether or not it's made people more connected from a work perspective, I see that more as belonging. So I kind of separate them a little bit. And when people are in the office and when you see someone, or, or say hi up and down the stairwell, we've got a huge number of employees who have offshore managers and they might be a team of one, like in country. So they're not actually connected to a team in country. So being in the office, does help provide that sense of belonging I belong to. And I think there's a bit of a, for me, there's just a bit of a difference there, and I think that being in the office and seeing people it's more that sense of belonging as opposed to necessarily, connection on a. On a, I know, I know you're a bit more personally or, no, you on a more personal level than I have before, because I can see, your house or your kids or your dog, or

[00:24:18] Pia: well, I think back to that video of that UK correspondent in Korea, when his child came into the zoom call and sort of the hilarity that it caused, that this was probably two, two and a half years 

[00:24:34] Dan: just a couple of years ago, I 

[00:24:35] Pia: And are, do you think. that's. All of us at some point, you know, you've had your child or your dog. It happened to a friend of mine where she didn't realize her child was on the school zoom call and she stepped out of the shower at the inopportune time and scared half his classmates. And so, it's such a difference that the plus of it for me is we've become more human even though, you know, there's different agendas in different countries and different approaches around it. And there is also a tension around the division, but there is also just this lovely humanness that we've got rid of some of the corporate BS and actually seeing each other for who we really are. 

[00:25:21] Michelle: I definitely agree. I think, there is, people are much more accepting. There's a lot more tolerance and understanding, and that is that empathy than there ever was before. And I think people as a result, I'm more open to maybe raising issues about what is going on for them. And that's because I think they feel now, that they're going to be more heard than they were, previously and that's because everyone's had their own challenges to work through.

[00:25:48] Dan: I'm must say, I think is really exciting. I think about my wife worked in the city of London in the nineties and it was culturally unacceptable to allude in any way to the fact that you might have a private life, and if you are asked at six o'clock to work till two o'clock in the morning, there was no excuse for that. And I feel that this is a really amazing sort of change to that. It's sort of it's been going gradually, but as you say, I think accelerated it's actually, we're all humans and actually we have. W we, I think we see much more about our complete lives. I think it's that side is so positive despite these um, additional challenges it brings. I think it's the bringing the humanity into work has it's been accelerated

[00:26:26] Michelle: Oh, I think, yeah there's a lot, way more positives that of these then from a work perspective, the negative from a health perspective, that's a totally different response, but from a work perspective, you look at, you look at people who have gone regional, so, there's now, a whole different perspective on how to manage your finances or, to be able to do the things you want to do for work perspective, but not have to bear potentially, some of the costs of living in a big city, in order to do it. 

[00:26:54] Pia: An other question I also wants to ask Michelle was, I'm curious how new team leaders, new managers, how do they cope if they've never, ever met the team and how you supporting them to to get that to quickly kind of build that sense of trust when they're not having any of the spontaneous catch ups that they might've had, or even planned ones face to face. 

[00:27:18] Michelle: Well, there's a couple of things is given the fact that, you're not in an office, you know, and you're meeting, generally people, you know, in their, at home, it actually allows team members into a little bit about who you are as a leader or who you are as a person. So, in some instances it actually can accelerate the team, you know, you go, oh yeah, I've got a dog too or, whatever it might be. But there's other things to talk about that you might not have talked about if you were meeting for the first time in an office and it was, you know, to your point, you know, this is my work life and I keep my personal life personal and private.

[00:27:51] So I think there's that I think we've what we've done is we've been, a lot more deliberate on the roles that each team member will have on onboarding either a manager or another member. So, we'll say, okay, when you catch up, you take them through expenses, or how to fill in online expenses or these sort of processes, you take them through, you know, what's our performance management system, you take them through. So, then as a result, if someone's got a question or that new, person's got a question, they don't just go to one person, but they go to the member of the team that they spent, on that topic. So it helps to build a bit of a connection there, as well as obviously giving you an overview of, who they are, what they do, et cetera, et cetera, but it gives them a specific area of their onboarding to own. And also helps build that, so it's not just one buddy, but it, depending on the area or the topic that they've onboarded them on. So that's one thing that we've done.

[00:28:43] And I think it's all the. More deliberate social elements that we've tried to, that we've put in that really help as well. So, within, if you think about it within a first, the first fortnight they've attended two coffee catch-ups which add that too structured, they've attended a virtual drinks, well, this week it would be, and maybe whatever else, and that gives them an opportunity to sort of meet the team and and get a little bit more connected and that's just, for that particular team, let alone other things that might, they might be invited to. So I think that's the way we've approached it. So there is some isn't pluses that you would normally wouldn't get if you were in the office. 

[00:29:18] Pia: I mean, you've got that ability that you can have a drink and then you didn't have to drive home. I mean, that's quite nice. That's a good stop. And I mean, that sounds very very collaborative. And I know your organization very well, and that it's very a warm and welcoming approach because the dark side of this is that it can be intimidating and sometimes isolating, and we're all different personalities. So we're all kind of processing all the different challenges, some of us relishing in it, and some of us finding it a bit tedious. So being able to share that collectively is such a, such an important thing. 

[00:29:52] Michelle: And so now if he's not an easy organization, to, to get to navigate, if you're, if you're new never alone. So it just, making sure that people understand, you know, ask the question, it doesn't matter if you're asking it once or twice, but at least if you're divvying it up, they don't feel like they're asking the same person all the time.

[00:30:07] Dan: Michelle, thank you so much for joining us today. I'm going to ask you an unfair question, which is if you can knit all of this stuff together with a piece of advice for team leaders and team members out there, what's in S in summary, is there something that you would leave people with in, in really making the most of this wonderful opportunity, but also offsetting any sort of challenges what's what advice would you give?

[00:30:31] Michelle: Probably those three things I started off with, I said, really be flexible around, how your team members want to work be very deliberate around those, that innovation and that space that you need in order to innovate and collaborate and just, think and create and then empathy, I think. That empathic leader is gonna, get a lot more out of their teams, from an engagement perspective than if they don't. And it's not as easy to read, individuals, when you're not seeing all of them physically, so you really do need to, be quite empathic around the conversations that you're having and just checking in on them.

[00:31:10] 

[00:31:13] Dan: Wow. I think, I think that was fantastic. I thought Michelle was absolutely wonderful. She spent, uh, he's clearly spent her lockdown constructively thinking about how to support her team and her organization in a in a new wold.d 

[00:31:26] Pia: I mean, I know Michelle really well, so, you know, she's, she's got incredible wisdom and insight into this. I was really also heartened to see how she'd made specific choices for herself as well. So in terms of that, being deliberate about her own rhythm and routine, and I think that came strongly through that you can become, sometimes a victim without yourself realizing it too, all the changes that happen around you. So it's a feeling of overwhelm. which can be pretty disorientating. So anchoring yourself in a routine, making deliberate choices about how you structure yourself, I think is, was really, really, really important.

[00:32:10] Dan: I think that that was really important for her and I it's, it's a topic, isn't it? That we talk to leaders a lot about, which is making conscious choices. And it seems to be even more important these days where there's so much in a way there's so much freedom that there aren't those cues of the commute or the trip to the office, or the business trip to break things up, you have to be really conscious. And I think it's very easy to fall back into onto our factory settings, like when you do a refresh of your phone, it's just back to normal. There's nothing deliberate there. 

[00:32:39] Pia: Building on from that there, like you talk about factory settings. I don't actually think of light. I'm just sort of wondering whether the industrial revolution has actually in these times finally come to an end 

[00:32:51] Dan: can we kill it? 

[00:32:52] Pia: Yeah, I think it's over. It's done. And um, because Michelle talked a lot about not moving away from being office centric, to being human centric and really pushing. People at the heart of things and how empathy as a cool behavior will drive that trust in the team, in the organization and in humans. So that's a huge shift than when we were, literally checking in with a card and checking out, that wasn't that long ago we were doing that, and our, the amount of time we spent at work deemed to be how effective we were, that's all changed.

[00:33:33] Dan: It's fascinating. I think. And I'm sh I think the change has only just begun actually. Um, that's a cue for a song,

[00:33:39] Pia: I was just going to say, you're going to sing that.

[00:33:41] Dan: Maybe later, um, but the, um, But, you know, this industrial revolution, the sort of Tayloristic idea of right. You've all got to converge on these buildings and, and yes, you know, actually comply with a certain rhythm of life and do certain things, with any luck that will have changed and that moved away from office centric is going to be so important. I actually have a problem with the word hybrid because it implies that there's an office involved somewhere, you know, that your hybrid life is you can spend some time in the office and you've spent some time out, but it has an implication that the office has to be there not to say that offices have no value in the future, but the way that Michelle solved that for me was it's human centric, so what is right for that person in order to be happy and productive and connected to their team?

[00:34:29] Pia: And in doing that, you need to make deliberate choices about the types of conversations that you have and the way that you do that, because otherwise you'll just fall foul of completing task after task after task, which will. Not be very meaningful at the end of the day. Not very satisfying. And we're already seeing high burnout workplace loneliness is increasing, so really important to make those choices for yourself first and then for the people that you are leading and that then forms much more human centric approach.

[00:35:07] Dan: I must admit I was a victim of that in our first lockdown. I was certainly contributed to flattening the curve as they say I just got into task and sat sort of plugged into the matrix and kept working. And yeah my health suffered a little bit. I must've met, so I'm doing a little bit better now but.

[00:35:21] Pia: And stayed a little too close to the fridge?

[00:35:25] Dan: Maybe it's sidling over to the fidget a few times my done. and we'll be picking up this topic in our next episode, um, when we were talking about psychological safety and how that is going to play into this as well. So it'll be really interesting to explore this at this time. And in the meantime our listeners can go over to spotify.net to get all the show notes for this show with a few resources as well. And we are really looking forward to seeing you on the next episode of we, not me.

[00:35:51] Pia: Bye bye. See you next time.