Welcome to the Sound On Sound people and music industry podcast channel. In this episode, SOS author and Sheffield based musician Nigel Humberstone talks to Ross Orton.  Also based in Sheffield, Ross is a musician, songwriter, engineer and producer who first made an impact playing drums with Add N to X, Electro Trio, Fat Truckers and Jarvis Cocker.

Since then, Ross has built up some impressive songwriting, production, and mixing credits, including Arctic Monkey's 2013 album, A. M., the Mercury Prize nominated Arula by M. I. A., The Fall, Toddler T, Roots Maneuver, The Kills, Tinchy Strider, Ladyhawk, Drench, and Working Men's Club. 

Thanks for chatting with us, Ross. From your background playing drums with the likes of Add N to X and the Fat Truckers, What influences and events brought about your move into recording? Well, I was, I was mainly playing drums. Uh, I was doing a lot of drumming. Watch Shears, guys. And, uh, it kind of stemmed from being in a lot of studios, doing a lot of drum recording.

And obviously being on that side of the drum kit, where you hear the acoustic drum sound all the time, and the dynamics all the time. And every time I went and recorded in a studio, you know, the guy would be like  Recording to tape back then, pre Pro Tools days, and using compressors and all this kind of stuff, and I don't know, it just always sounded a bit, didn't sound brutal, didn't sound harsh, didn't sound, it didn't, just didn't have life to it, it just, I don't know, I just, and I'd always complain to the, to the poor engineer or producer, I'd be like, That's not how my drums sound.

And he'd be like, well, yeah, when it, when it's mixed, mate, you know, and it always just sounded exactly the same. But I realized years later that that was his perception of how he wanted the drums to sound in the mix. To me, I just want my drums to sound like my drums. And then at that time it was, it was, it was fast approaching the 1990s and DJs were becoming a thing and electronic music was becoming a thing.

I know that was part of Sheffield's heritage really, but the way it was going was there wasn't a lot of breathing space for, for live bands.  So I, I actually ended up just not being in any bands anymore. And then kind of bumped into a couple of kids who had like some decks and, and stuff. And then, you know, I started, I bought a pair of Technics and started DJing a little bit.

Getting into kind of darker side of electronic music. More like techno and craft work, you know, and leading on from that. I just invested whatever little bits of money I had, I just bought a sampler and a MS 20, an old Alan and Eve desk. Just had a few bits and bobs in my bedroom and just built this thing and just started concentrating on programming beats and putting little bits of synth on there.

And then people started hearing what I was doing locally in Sheffield, people like Parrot. And started approaching me, and obviously they could hear I had something, but I didn't know what I was doing at all, really, just had no idea. And I think that was it, because I was outside that inner circle of Sheffield DJs of music.

I wasn't making it for them, I was making it for myself, so I suppose it sounded a bit different and a bit fresh to them. So Parrot approached me and was like, you know, do you want to do some stuff, and I started working with him, and he, he, he was amazing, you know. Got lot to thank him for, really, because he He showed me how to just make a seven minute piece of music with like four sounds, literally, and it just never got boring.

He was like the king of like minimal electronica in Sheffield at that time for me. So I was like, ah right, you know, this is kind of like a new avenue. I only had like one mic at the time. I think it was like a Bayer M380. I bought it off a guy who was retiring from studio engineering to become a priest.

Still got it, but it actually doesn't work. But I've got, like, two others, so I kind of collected them for a little bit because they're one of my favourite mics. Interestingly, one of Steve Albini's favourite mics. But I didn't know that at the time. But I used to use it on vocals, and I know they've made that mic for, like, bass, kick drum, and, like, brass applications.

So do you think the M380 became your favourite because it was the only mic you had? Anything that I put, I put in front of it. It just seemed to sound like it. I mean, there's no, there's no transformers in those things. They're like a bay headphone diaphragm that they're, that's inside there and, and it's just a coil kind of noise reduction, un booking coil or something in there so that, so you can actually plug it into a line amp and it is got a serious amount of game.

So you don't actually need like a, a, a mic preamp. And if you just want it completely clean without the, the flavor or the color of your preamps, you've got it.  When did you realise that production was a direction that you wanted to take? Well, I never used to call myself a producer because I started off doing a few remixes for labels.

And, um, I had never actually sat and produced anything in my eyes. I mean, I would always create my own kick drum sounds with synths and layer them up with like a 909 or an 880. But I'd always put something else in there and layer up my snare drum in the room and then put synth white noise on it. And then maybe like a sampled rim shot or something in there and just layer up and then, and then re sample everything.

So I would be producing individual sounds.  Um, but I, I, I never really saw it as production at the time. To me, a producer was someone who produced a piece of music.  Um, so I would be getting sent a load of parts and I'd stick them all over the computer and just add a few of my sounds. And it was, it was only until something came out with my name on that I decided it, you know, I could.

called myself a producer finally and that was the MIA record that I did with Steve Mackey. So it was, it was a tune called Geline I'm Very Proud Of, um,  so when that came out I did, I did start getting a few  A few more bits of work, uh, but obviously that was  unrelated to bands, it was more like solo artists and vocalists and that kind of thing.

But in the meantime, as I was doing that, I started setting up my junkie in my bedroom again and like putting me one microphone in and then I got an SM58 and then, you know, just dangling mics off things and resting it on top of wardrobe or something or, and just moving mics around and just trying to get a sound that would represent what was going on in my mind, I suppose.

The setting up of McCall Sound Studios at the Crystal Ships Complex in Sheffield sounded like quite an undertaking for you. How did that come about? That was knowing Tim, who's the landlord there, did a couple albums for his band, Bromhead's Jacket. There was three rooms, there was a control room and the live room, and then there was another room  that I was going to rent out to someone as like a kind of control room, like a midi suite or something. 

But it just ran out of money.  And that just became a storeroom for all my drum kits and broken cymbals and bits and bobs. And it was an old steel factory, so it was all grim up there.  Uh, and again, summer, boiling, winter, freezing.  And, uh, and it never looked like I was ever going to get there. Yeah, I didn't have any wooden flooring down.

It was all like chipboard on top of rock floor, a few rugs cobbed around, bare walls, you know, the reverb times were immense. Um, so I started like, cack handedly making my own. Absorption panels without really knowing what I was doing. Just like walking around clapping my hands and hitting a snare drum.

Things that were bright and loud, I just kind of used those things.  And then just put somewhere where I knew that I'd be a reflection of a ping and that I'd den that. And in the end I've got a pretty good drum sound in my room, it's pretty good. A lot of people say, yeah it's a good drum sound that. And obviously because I've made it to sound right for my drums really. 

And then I just got, I just got a phone call from Optic Monkeys one day saying, really, I wanna work with you.  Can we come to your studio? I was like, uh, yeah, if you want. And uh, obviously they all rocked up. I knew 'em a little bit anyway, weren't like just out the blue. But, uh, yeah, they rocked up to the studio and, uh,  we started working and we did, we did our u mine, uh, we did our u mine then, and I mixed it there as well. 

And Owls straight away was just like, I love this place. It's really good what you've got here, Ross. I went, what do you mean? I had no internet either. I didn't even have internet. I couldn't afford it.  And he's like, because there's no distractions. And they could just turn up in the middle of, what, an industrial area of Sheffield.

No one knew they were there. And,  you know, they just had the phones off. And we'd just got on with the music. And it was great. Obviously, I have internet now. And it's a lot plusher. And I've got the roof filled in. You know, there's a proper wooden floor in there now and, you know, we've got a kitchen, that old room that was unfinished is now a nice kitchen and we've got ISO booths in there and, but we've got, it's gone from three rooms to eight rooms down there, uh, there's like a workshop in there and there's store rooms and we're just taking on another room that was, was a,  it was an old substation room  that's right, that's right next to the studio that the landlord was giving me.

So that's going to be like a kind of lounge area and that kind of thing eventually. Which we need. Um, I mean we're still using outside toilets down there. It's proper like, bomb shelter.  Yeah. Oh, that's proper Sheffield, yeah. But like, old bands that turn up, you know, they're like, I say, they go, Oh, where's the toilet, mate?

I'm like, I'll take you, it's just round the corner. And they take them, and they go, and I'm like, sorry about that. It's always clean and stuff, but I'm like, oh, sorry about that. They're like, it's alright, we've had worse, don't worry about it. And of course they have, you know. Young bands, you know, they play toilets all over the place and it's,  it's, you know, it's homely, let's say that, it's cosy and homely. 

Amongst your many credits as engineer, producer, drummer and mixer, you're also acknowledged as something of a clapper. How did that come about? Clapmaster. Yeah, I've got a good technique that is on, uh, Do I Wanna Know? We did that in, um, Joshua Tree, Rancho De La Luna. And we did like the basic tracking for that.

Uh, we were just demoing stuff, and I had the idea that bassline was just going round.  And he just was not into the idea of like a full drum kit. He just thought it was just not gonna work. And he was right. Um, he's a very smart kid. So I was like, right, okay, well, I was like, you know, just like a stomping kick drum, you know.

Boom, boom.  I was like, what about some claps? He's like, what do you mean? I said, well, you know. Anyway, we spread ourselves all around and we were doing flams on his legs and we were hitting his bellies and all sorts. All at the same time in different rooms. And that's the clap sound that we come out with.

So yeah, I do see myself as the clap master. Yeah.  LAUGHS Yeah, that'll be on my tombstone. One thing this lad was good at were claps. He always had the clap going on.  Looking through your gear list, it would appear that whilst you're passionate about your outboard gear, the desk or your console isn't really the most important consideration.

Well, that's, that's the thing you see. So, it's a, some Sony thing that I just use for monitoring through and use for headphones settings. I just use the auxiliaries for headphones or the channels for playback. So I've got a monitor, I use one of those here technologies.  Headphone monitoring systems that are brilliant, but I can assign my Pro Tools Outputs so I have like eight outputs coming to the desk that I can like, you know I have like stereo drums, mono, bass, whatever for the tracking purposes and we can monitor in the control room And that's all I use it for.

I've got I've got loads that I've got loads of mic pre's So I've got like I've got more than I've got inputs into me. Um, so I use Prism Titans, which are great  So I've got two of those, like, word clocked together, so there's like 8 in 8 out on each one. But I've got about 20 odd mic pre's, or like, Neva like is, and I've got some API's in, or like, you know, the 11 slot.

kind of rack units I've got. I only use, kind of, Neve y stuff. I've got some Neve stuff in the studio, which is actually clothes. BAE stuff. I use a lot of BAE stuff. It's really good. I just find it a little bit sluggish sometimes, the Neve thing. I think it's good for slower forms of music. I don't really do much of that, you see.

I do a lot of punk and rock and electronic music. That seems to be the way I've gone over the years. Not because I just listen to that kind of music. That just seems to be the bands that approach me for the sound that I do. But I like the faster 312s and the 512s, the API stuff. I'm a big API fan really.

With the pads on the front are good and, you know, it works on higher source but I try not to pad as much as possible really because I have done some tests and I can hear the difference. That tiny little bit of carbon there just does interfere. And I've got me silver face, 1176. I think it's a, I don't know, it's one of the later ones that everybody hates.

Um, when you go on all these forums, like, but I've used them. I've, I've used them. I've used all 11 76ers and some do sound a lot better than others. And obviously they've been used a lot and there have been, some of 'em have been in studios where people used to chain smoke and copy her everywhere. And yeah, they said they'd been serviced, some of 'em, but some of 'em are, are not as good as others.

And there'd be like three and a right that are meant to be from same. But mine sounds great. I love mine. Always use it on vocals. Always use it on kick drum.  Always use it on bass DI. Control them transients going in. Super fast. Um, I've got my, I've got one of my Prism Titans. They're mega. They're really, really good.

Awesome. Love that company. Everything just sounds so good. Uh, I've got my lunchbox here that's got two  BAE 312 mic pres. Oh, it's got three actually. Three of them. Uh, API 512, API 550B. And one of those, uh, what is it, uh, what are they called? Cappy, that's it. And you can choose your transformers. There's different transformers, different op amps.

Uh, you build them yourself, obviously. I think he might build them for you, but it's quite expensive. You know, I've got some of his mic pre's that are really nice. I think I bought about eight of them and built them all. Uh, really easy build as well, they're really simple, it's just like,  Input, output, transformer and op amp.

Do you have a mics that you fall back on, say for recording drums? I do these days, I never used to, I used to be terrible for just trying all sorts of stuff. You know, one session I'd get an amazing drum sound, with an average drummer, and then the next session it'd be a great drummer. And I'd not get as good a drum sound because it'd just be me, like, you know, messing around with shit.

Like, trying out this old eBay. Like, getting it, you know, strapping it around his neck or something. Just doing, just doing all those things that you like to do when you're getting into producing stuff. And you're seeing the players as people who are just going to give you this sound and you can try out all your new tricks.

But obviously as I've, as I've kind of wandered aimlessly through that world of Thin Ice, you know, I've arrived at a place where I've done my background checks, I've read a lot about mics, I've tried a lot of mics, a lot of preamps, and so I know what I'm going for, for, for certain textures. And obviously I've got quite a lot of different snares.

snares, steel snares, wood snares. I know how those kind of tones react with certain mics You know, and the speed of the drummer, I'll try and match that up to certain compressors and, and, and, and pre amps. So, I'm interacting with the transient, I'm interacting with the player, I quite like that side of it.

But like I say, I was saying earlier about, like, the Neve stuff, I'm not, not a big fan of sluggish equipment, so like optical compressors and things like that. I like them as like, kind of finishing things on the, on the, because it's a style of music that I do, because it's fast. It's good, like, record a vocal through an 1176 and then put it through.

Like, Retube Tech or something for the mix. Um, on a, you know, on a slower attack and release times and stuff like that. Just to smooth it out, even it out a bit. But again, it depends on the audio content, really. So I usually have like 13 inputs, usually 12 13 mics, so I have like hi hat, snare top and bottom, toms just top only, I don't, I don't mic top and bottom of toms at the same time, I have done for tom overdubs and it sounds amazing.

I use a lot of Beyer 201's, but NC versions, got about 5 or 6 of them, well they're hypercardioid as well. So they're great on snare, great on toms. If we're talking rock drummers here and punk drummers and auditing drummers, they're brilliant because they tackle a lot of SPL.  Uh, and there's a little bump in the low mids somewhere.

Might be like 250 to 500  y area.  Rate good. Rate solid. Really good. Like thick, solid turn on your snares and that. But they've got a really nice, I think there's a little rise at about 10k as well, so they're nice on hi hat and snare bottom. So I use those, uh, Coles 4038s, I use a pair of them for overheads. 

Kick drum inside a kick, M380, always. I'll move it around to find a good sound on it though, in the centre of the drum sometimes. I never have it in the hole. Never record in the hole, because that's where all the wind is and all the horrible stuff. You just seem to be losing bottom end, because it's all shooting out of that hole.

A lot of people like to put a mic there, and I'm like, I couldn't understand why live guys do it. But  to me there's the, the, it's like being a drummer. It's like you float on, for instance, or you're racked on you dead in the center and the air moves down. It's the other skin, the other skin. You know, you get your oscillations, you get, yeah, moving up and down, up and down.

It's all in the centre, it's not at the edge of the drum. So it's the same with like recording snare. If you, all the ring is at the end. Sorry, it's at the edge. That's where all the ring seems to be. That's where you put all your dampeners around the edge. So I always try and get my snare up and over a little bit, looking at the centre of the drum.

But obviously the higher up you get, the lower tones seem to diminish a little bit. And then obviously you're getting more top end reflections off your hi hats and, and  I tend to move the kick drum  mic into the middle, inside. So, but the best thing to do really, if you've got your skin with a hole in, and it'll always be to one side, like a left or a right side, is I'll loosen off all the tuning rods.

Spin the skin round, so it's, the hole is at the bottom, and put a weight or something inside. I've got some, like, old dumbbell weights, like 5 kilo weights or something, and 2 kilos, and they'll get through the hole. If you can't, take the skin off, and then just put a weight on the cushion, and it presses it down into the bottom of the drum, and then you can get your mic in, and the cable doesn't start hitting the pillow.

And then, so get in at the bottom, and then move your mic up a little bit, and have it, and you'll get it dead centre, so it'll be in between. Right, right in front of the beat of them. And then, obviously with the figure of eight, I'm getting the resonant head as well, coming in at the back of the mic. So that's the trick that I use.

Uh, and compress at will, with, with, with whatever you like. And let some of that front end through, don't go crazy with that attack, winding it all back so it's just like flattening out your sound, because you'll have nothing left in the mix. And get the release to go with however the guy's playing, especially on those double beats.

If somebody's like  Gotta have a fast compressor for that, or else it, it just evens out and you don't really feel the double pulse. It'll just sound like, boo hoo, boo hoo, you know what I mean? You'll lose it, lose that punch. And then on the outside, this is where I start getting phase problems now, because this is where I'll put my  bare M380.

Um, and then outside I'll put the 47. Uh, I've tried micing the beat aside, but  I just don't like it. I don't know. They just don't give me what I like. It just sounds a bit crappy to me. It's like the 47 outside there. I'm gonna move that around until I'm happy. And then I've got a AEA R88 stereo ribbon that I'll have out in front of the kit.

Again, placement is everything. But they're massive long ribbons in them. Very, very bright mic actually. It's surprisingly bright for a ribbon. And then, I have a, some people call it a smash mic I suppose, maybe I do, um,  a Beyer M260, a ribbon mic, is it dual ribbon that one? And I have that coming in over the top of the kick drum.

In between, I mean most, most drummers use one rack and a floor, so I'll have it like in between, underneath the ride cymbal, in between the rack and the floor, facing the top of the snare. If it goes too low, you start getting a bit of, or too far out, you start getting a bit of like pedal squeak and a bit of like That crisp packet y bottom snare thing, um, and obviously if it's too high you get too much ride cymbals So I was trying to work with the drummer to move his cymbals and move stuff So the mic and that thing just sounds like pure 60s.

It's like that 60s mono drum kit sound and you can smash Smash it without you want afterwards, you know, it's great, but I never I never put anything on it on the way in Try and keep the mics pretty clean, I might use a bit of EQ on Tom's way in, a little bit on snare, a little bit on kick, and just compression on my snare really, er, sorry on my kick drum really, I don't use it on anything else.

And then further back in the room, I'll use like a big ribbon. Like an RCA or something like quite far back in the room So yeah, I'm kind of getting towards the edge of before you start getting that flam, you know boundary effect thing So I'll pull it in just to make sure I've got it But it feels like part of the kit and then I'll just have I'll have like a hall mic which could be anything It could be a PZM It could be a condenser mic set to omni pattern depends on what I'm going for at the time and I will compress that mic Though I like to compress that and that's kind of me go to so actually like every time now  You've worked with a number of new bands.

Is there a trick to producing whilst also helping people develop? Well, yeah, I've always, I've always thought it's about the music, not about the, you know, it's not, I don't want my thumbprints all over someone's record. I want it to sound great, and obviously I'm involved. I, I, I just see myself there as the guy who makes it happen, as in like, stops them being distracted by all the flashing lights and the bells and the whistles, and just get them concentrating on their parts and on the song.

It's all about the song, really. So what do you find is needed to get a great performance? Make him a regular coffee and a nice cup of tea and  don't leave anybody out is my thing, you know You can have that one guy in the band who's your shoe sat there at the back They don't say anything for two days Not a thing and then you get to that point in the song where it was like, oh, that's not really lurking All right.

Well, i'll try a different mic and you know, why don't why don't we try a different? You know, why don't we try a baritone? guitar instead of a bass, or those kind of things, or use a synth instead of an organ, or what, you know, and get a Pog pedal on it or something, and you're trying, you're trying all these things, and then this person in the corner sat there silent for two days and go  I've got an idea Why don't we do this?

And everybody just stops and looks at them. It's like best idea Anybody's had in like two days. I've had a few of those moments where it's just taught me not to rule And either quiet person in the corner, the weirdo Get them involved as quickly as possible. I always find being all inclusive  Is a great technique, um, and I'm finding these days as well Is there's bands getting signed up off putting like one song on Or their little friends video up on YouTube And it's management companies and labels out there just scooping up all these young bands Before they've even had a release and then they keep them working in studios And going in with producers and spending too much money really If you ask me Spending too much money on these young bands Just send them around Don't release anything for a good year or two, you know, develop in the band and the bands will turn up and literally wires hanging out the guitar pedals Cables that don't work.

Have you got a plectrum mate? I've only got one drumstick. And it's literally this, you know. And they're paying good money to be in the studio with me. And I'm like, right, let's go out for a meal and a beer. And get to know one another. And then go back in the studio and go, right, okay. And let them choose the guitars they want to work with.

And let them choose them. And they'll be like, oh, can I try this mate? You haven't got a delay pedal have you? Yeah, there's about four in that drawer there mate. Oh wicked, oh, oh, yeah, so we only need one light, but we'll try them all  I mean, you know, you can end up with pedal boards from here to barnsley, you know, if you're not careful When it comes to mixing what are your preferences for monitoring and your choice of outboard?

A pair of Aura Tones here, 70s Aura Tones, love them. I like mixing really quietly. A lot of people use them in mono, but I like them in stereo. I can check in mono with a plug in if I want, but I just have them sit, sit really close to me, right at low levels, and I just get everything so bang on, like, you know, like nothing pokes out. 

It's, it's a bit like listening on laptop speakers these days. But obviously the newer laptops now, they're getting a lot more bass in the speakers. Once you've got your bass right, obviously, the less bass you've got to deal with in a mix, the better. Your mids are free, all your upper mids are free. You can get everything nice and tight, and get your stereo balanced well, and then switch back to your big speakers and just sit your bottom there nice.

Go back to your little speakers and if it's nice and punchy, you know, you've got it, right? That's how I tend to work when I mix, really. I don't use them when I'm tracking. Oh, actually, apart from doing vocals, because you can tell that it's such a small bandwidth on them. You can really hear when a singer's out of tune.

So I do all my comping, all my vocal comping on Aura Tones. And tracking, I listen to them as well. So yeah, it changed the way I worked, actually. Going down to like little speakers. I used to mix in the box all the time. And, um, I was not getting my mixers right. I was getting a bit depressed. Thinking, well, I've produced this.

I know everything that's in there. I've got it right up until that mix point. And now I'm mixing it and it's just falling a bit short. And something's not gluing this stuff together. And then, when I got into Pro Tools, we set up the outboard section of it. So we can just use it as inserts and send out to outboard gear and come back in in real time and all that.

And we set all that up through the mixer. And, um, it started working really well, so I'd have like, vocals going back, back out for a compressor in the mix and, and then I started investing in some stereo gear, got a nice, uh, API 2500, love them things. So I, so I'll have that on the mix bus, you know, got a nice stereo valve EQ.

Some of it's clean, some of it's very good at saturating, harmonically, and all, and all that kind of thing. And, and once I got into that world, I was like, wow. It just, it's just a different, it's just a different thing, and I've just recently invested in, um, UAD stuff actually, I've just bought a four core satellite thunderbolt thing.

And they're really, really good, but they still, they still haven't got that analogue. Think, you know what I mean? You still haven't got that thing where sometimes you have to do a fongs, don't you? And whack the front panel and  for it to come back to life. And it's all that part of, part of the vibe that I, that I like about analog gear.

It sounds like your studio setups have been very drum centric. Is that a fair observation? Yeah, yeah. Yeah. Pretty, because I always built, when I, when I got into make electronic music, I built it all around the drum sound as well, so you know what I mean. I pro up the drums first and then I put Sims on top.

So I think it's just a, I think it's just a carry on of that, whatever's, that's, that's all that's ever been going around me. I, I very rarely play drums anymore. Kits always set up, and that's all I ever wanted at one point was a room with my drums in where I could go and play them at any time, night or day, and no one would ever hear me, and no one would ever complain.

Because they were the most anti social instrument on earth really, a set of drums. Now I've got that space and the drums are set up, bless it, I don't, I don't, I don't, I don't take care of them in that way anymore, but I do give them a quick dust down when, uh, a new band come in and put some new heads on for them and stuff like that, but Music saved me, really, I mean, this is, this is not the first time music's saved me. 

Thanks for chatting with us, Ross.  Thank you for listening, and be sure to check out the show notes page for this episode, where you'll find further information, along with web links and details of all the other episodes. Oh, and just before you go, let me point you to the soundonsound. com forward slash podcasts website page where you can explore what's playing on our other channels.