Software Social

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Summary

Michele finally opens the pre-sale for her book, and Colleen gets some help.

Show Notes

Michele Hansen  00:00
Welcome back to Software Social. This episode is sponsored by the website monitoring tool, Oh Dear.

If you've listened to this podcast for any amount of time, you know that I'm passionate about customer service and listening to customers.

A few months ago, we noticed something wasn't working on the Oh Dear dashboard. We reported it to them, and they fixed it almost immediately. Everybody has bugs occasionally, but not every company is so responsive to their customers, and we really appreciate that.

You can sign up for a 10 day free trial with no credit card required at OhDear.app.
 
Colleen Schnettler  00:35
So Michele, I'd love to hear about how things are going with the book. 
 
Michele Hansen  00:40
They're going. Um, so after our episode with Sean last week, I realized that I kind of, I have to launch this thing eventually, right? 
 
Colleen Schnettler  00:54
Yes. 
 
Michele Hansen  00:55
And, you know, for, you know, I mean, for months I've been hearing that advice of, you know, do a, do a presale and like, start selling it beforehand, And, and I was like, yeah, I mean, you know, I, that's the best practice. That makes sense. And then just kind of be like, but that doesn't apply to me, right? Like, I couldn't make, um. It's, you know, it's funny, because it's almost, I feel like the way people feel about when they hear about customer interviewing, they're like, that sounds really valuable and like the right thing to do, and I'm just gonna act like that doesn't apply to me. 
 
Colleen Schnettler  01:29
Yep. 
 
Michele Hansen  01:30
So that's kind of how I was, and talking to Sean really kind of got me to be like, okay, okay, fine. I should actually sit down and do this. So I got a very simple website together, and then I actually did end up launching the presale. 
 
Colleen Schnettler  01:46
Oh, congratulations. 
 
Michele Hansen  01:48
Yeah, that was super scary. Like, because the book 
 
Colleen Schnettler  01:50
I bet.
 
Michele Hansen  01:53
And, like, random places where it says like, insert graphic here.
 
Colleen Schnettler  02:01
So tell us how many books have you sold? 
 
Michele Hansen  02:03
Okay, yeah, so I guess I get to do, like, a numbers update for the first time. This is fun. Um, so I have sold 34 copies. 
 
Colleen Schnettler  02:15
Wow. 
 
Michele Hansen  02:16
Presale.
 
Colleen Schnettler  02:17
That's a lot. 
 
Michele Hansen  02:18
So, and that's not including for like, you know, platform fees and whatever. Just like, you know, $29 times 34, basically. $986. 
 
Colleen Schnettler  02:32
That's amazing. Congratulations! 
 
Michele Hansen  02:35
So close to that, like, 1000 mark, which, I was talking about this with Mathias earlier, and he's kind of like, I feel like that's like a, you know, that's like, the legit threshold, is 1000. Like, and I don't know why, but it's like, yeah, it's like that feels like, that feels like the, the, like, the first big hurdle. 
 
Colleen Schnettler  02:55
I totally agree. That's wonderful news. Congratulations. 
 
Michele Hansen  03:00
You know, I expected to feel excited, or relieved, or something positive after releasing it, or the presale, at least. And I gotta tell you, like, I just feel pressure. Like, I'm really glad I didn't do this sooner. 
 
Colleen Schnettler  03:25
Really? 
 
Michele Hansen  03:27
Yeah. Because now I have, you know, at least 34 people I can't disappoint.
 
Colleen Schnettler  03:32
Right. 
 
Michele Hansen  03:32
And I feel like, just like, the pressure to make something that is a quality product, like, I already had that pressure on myself to put something out there that I'm proud of. 
 
Colleen Schnettler  03:44
Yeah.
 
Michele Hansen  03:46
Now I have all these other people who are expecting that, and not that anyone has emailed me and said anything to that effect, but that's how I feel. And I was thinking about this earlier. And I was like, man, like, writing and selling this book has like, brought out all of these, like, vulnerabilities and, and self-doubt and everything, like all of this stuff that I like, thought I had dealt with and then it's, like, sort of like bursting out of the cabinet, being like, hey, I'm still here. So it's, you know, I mean, I have tools to, like, deal with that, but it's been like, oh my gosh, like, I thought I had dealt with, like, I never feel this way about anything about Geocodio, like, so. 
 
Colleen Schnettler  04:33
So, this is interesting, because I, when I was feeling a similar way, many months ago, I don't actually know if I talked about it on the podcast, but I had a very high value client that I had a great relationship with that needed a file uploader, and mine wasn't quite done, and I had this moment of terror, panic, I don't know, where I was like, I shouldn't use mine because, because if I put it on my client's site, like, it has to work, right? There's no get out of jail free card, Kind of like, you've now sold this book. Like, you have to finish it. 
 
Michele Hansen  05:07
Right. It's not just like, throwing it in a PDF and then like. 
 
Colleen Schnettler  05:09
Yeah. 
 
Michele Hansen  05:10
Oh, whatever, nobody paid for it. Like, it's not a big deal. Like, it's like, no, this is, like, this is serious now. 
 
Colleen Schnettler  05:17
Yeah. And I think something that, that I'm thinking of as you're talking about this, I remember at the time, Alex Hillman had a really great tweet thread about you're not scared of failure, maybe you're secretly scared of success. 
 
Michele Hansen  05:32
Mm hmm. 
 
Colleen Schnettler  05:33
It was really interesting. Like, just when you think about, like, the psychology and all of these new insecurities coming to light for you, like, maybe you're scared of success. 
 
Michele Hansen  05:42
You know, and it's so I feel like we should have them on the podcast more, because I feel like they are, like, Amy and Alex in some way are like characters on this podcast, they're just not actually on the podcast. But like, the amount we talk about, you know, 30x500 and everything. She had, I think, I think it was her, or maybe, no, or maybe it was Dani Donovan, the woman who does the ADHD comics. But I think it was Amy, had a thread, like, couple months ago that was like, you know, people with, or maybe, I don't know if she has ADHD, so I don't know if this was her. Okay. Somebody had a thread that was like, you know, people with ADHD, like, you don't ever feel accomplished when you finish something. It's just over. And then you're on to the next thing. And it was like, yes, like, I expected to feel something when I finally got that out there, and now it instead feels like, oh, now I have to put in the graphics. Now I have to do the cover art. Like now I have to like, like, it just, it didn't, there was never this, like, moment of, like, feeling accomplished or anything like that. It just, it just rolled into the next thing.
 
Colleen Schnettler  06:58
Interesting. I don't, I don't have that problem. Like, that doesn't happen to me. I mean, but it's interesting, I find that interesting because one of the things, for me, is when I accomplish something, even if, I feel like if I'd been in your position and I got the presales out there, I do feel that, like, internal satisfaction of hitting that goal, and that's what keeps me motivated. So, if you don't get that same kind of dopamine hit, doesn't that make the whole process kind of painful? It doesn't sound fun. 
 
Michele Hansen  07:28
Well, what I do get that from is people, like, you know, positive reinforcement from other people. Like, so I've been asking people for testimonials to put at the front of the book. And on the one hand, that terrifies me, and, and then on the other hand, when they do come in, and people are talking about how the, the book and also sort of newsletter and like, like, all this, all this stuff is all sort of meshing together, has helped them, and what it has helped them do, and how they wish they'd had it sooner and everything. Like, that makes me feel good. That makes me feel like I am delivering the, like, a product that is worth somebody paying for, and that I can be proud of seeing how it's impacted other people. But I like I, I don't really get satisfaction out of achieving things, which is really ironic, because I think about younger versions of myself and I've like, you know, I describe me in high school as an achievement robot, like.
 
Colleen Schnettler  08:39
An achievement robot. 
 
Michele Hansen  08:41
Yeah, you know, you're, like, just taking as many AP's as you can and your life is over if you don't get in a top college. You know, that whole, that whole song and dance that turned out to be a lie, because now I work for myself. Not at all bitter about that. Anyway, um, yeah, it's but, this, so that is really, like, keeping me going or like, people tweeting out you like, hey, like, what is the book coming out? And part of me is like, oh, my God, am I gonna get them by then? But like, I've been getting a lot of really good reinforcement from people, and that, and I think that's, for me, that's been one of the really big benefits of building in public is not, not necessarily knowing that, exactly that people are going to pay for it and how much they're going to pay and having that money up front, but knowing that I'm creating something that is useful for people. Like, that is what keeps me going.
 
Colleen Schnettler  09:31
That sounds great, too. 
 
Michele Hansen  09:33
But now I got to finish the damn thing, so. 
 
Colleen Schnettler  09:35
Yeah. Now you gotta finish it. 
 
Michele Hansen  09:37
I was saying that the release date would be June 24. I actually just had to push that back to July 2, because I just, I don't think I have enough time. 
 
Colleen Schnettler  09:44
Yeah.
 
Michele Hansen  09:45
I do have an idea for the cover. Like, I want it to be like a terminal printout that's like, basically like installing, like, you know, like installing like empathy and like, loading scripts.
 
Colleen Schnettler  10:00
That'll be cute. 
 
Michele Hansen  10:01
Like, sort of corny. Developers aren't the only audience for it. But I also want them to know that this is a resource that is, like, accessible to them. 
 
Colleen Schnettler  10:14
Yeah.
 
Michele Hansen  10:15
I don't know. I have zero artistic abilities, like, I can't even, like, think visually, like, so I have so many people who are reviewing the draft right now, which is pretty amazing. Some of them are, like, super close friends of mine who are harsh editors, and I'm super grateful for that. And others are, like, people I have never even met who are so, I guess, so taken with, with the idea of the book that they're, like, helping me edit it, and I have never met them before, which is just so moving. But anyway, so someone has been giving me a lot of feedback on like, oh, like, this should be a graphic and like, this should be a graphic. And I'm like, I'm so glad you're saying that because it would have never occurred to me that that could be a graphic because I communicate in speech, and in text, and there's - 
 
Colleen Schnettler  11:01
Yeah.
 
Michele Hansen  11:01
Not a whole lot of pictures going on. 
 
Colleen Schnettler  11:03
Yeah.
 
Michele Hansen  11:04
So, so, yeah, I gotta kind of get all of, all that together in the next couple weeks. And like, hopefully release the, like, the print-on-demand version at the same time, but it's unclear. And then after that, I get to do the audio book, which, honestly, I'm really looking forward to, because then I just have to read the book out loud and as a podcaster, I'm like, I got that. Like, this does not involve any pictures. Like, I am good.
 
Colleen Schnettler  11:32
No pictures required. 
 
Michele Hansen  11:33
No art skills required.
 
Colleen Schnettler  11:36
Are you gonna hire someone to do the graphics? Have you figured that out yet? 
 
Michele Hansen  11:39
No, I've been making them in PowerPoint. 
 
Colleen Schnettler  11:42
Okay. I'm just saying there's -
 
Michele Hansen  11:45
Really simple. Like, there's not going to be like, pictures-pictures, like.
 
Colleen Schnettler  11:47
Okay.
 
Michele Hansen  11:48
If it turns out this book is a huge hit and I need to do a version that actually has pictures and like, somebody doing, like, professionally doing the layout then like, yeah, I'll, I'll do that, but. 
 
Colleen Schnettler  11:59
Yeah, so.
 
Michele Hansen  11:59
I mean, so like, more like flowcharts if anything, or like, putting something in a box so that it's, like, called out like even that kind of stuff. My brain is like, doesn't. 
 
Colleen Schnettler  12:09
Have you ever seen, there's a couple of people I've met at conferences that are developers, but they're also visual thinkers. And so they'll like, make sketch notes of someone's conference talk. Have you ever seen these? I'm going to send you some after the podcast. They're so cool. I mean, for your, for, you know, especially to hit, like, the developer audience, that would be, and that might be like version two of the book, but like, like sketch notes, or something would be super cool. Like, I could see a lot of cool opportunities here. 
 
Michele Hansen  12:37
Yeah, I tried to use something called Excalidraw, and I think my problem is like, I just don't think visually. 
 
Colleen Schnettler  12:47
Yeah.
 
Michele Hansen  12:47
Like, I never graduated beyond stick figures. My, my efforts that were beyond stick figures are hilarious. Like actually, like, yeah. Um, so I probably should, like, should bring that in, you know. But again, I mean, the book has only made, you know, just under $1,000. So I'm not, I'm not, I don't really want to, like, go out and hire an artist for a couple $1,000 for it. Like, I don't feel like that's a reasonable-
 
Colleen Schnettler  13:21
Not yet. Not yet. Right. I mean, that might be in the future. Yeah. I feel like that's not yet. I totally get that. 
 
Michele Hansen  13:27
Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. So, so that's- 
 
Colleen Schnettler  13:34
It's exciting. I'm glad we gave you that push. I mean, I kind of felt like I gave you that push when I was basically like, you're gonna have this up by the time we launch this podcast, right. I'm happy. I hope it wasn't too stressful. But I'm happy you got there. 
 
Michele Hansen  13:49
I think I needed the external deadline because-
 
Colleen Schnettler  13:52
Yeah. 
 
Michele Hansen  13:52
And again, this is kind of one of those, for me, ADHD things. Like, I need an external deadline because if it's a deadline I've come up with then it's not happening. But like, the reason why the book was, is gonna be out by July 2 is because, like, our, well, it was gonna be June 23 because our daughter finishes school for the year on June 25. So I was like, it has to be out before she gets out of school. But then I remember that she has a week of summer camp. So I'm like, okay, I have another week. 
 
Colleen Schnettler  14:16
You have one more week.
 
Michele Hansen  14:18
No, it has to be done before she gets out of camp because otherwise then I, you know, I won't have as much time, so. 
 
Colleen Schnettler  14:25
Yeah.
 
Michele Hansen  14:25
External deadline. Super helpful. Yeah. How's, how's stuff in Simple File Upload world?
 
Colleen Schnettler  14:33
So, things are good. I, you know, signups have still been consistent, but because I lost that big customer, I'm just below 1k MRR. So I haven't really seen that reflected in- 
 
Michele Hansen  14:48
Is the big customer the one that, like, wasn't using it and you couldn't get in touch with them? 
 
Colleen Schnettler  14:53
No, that person's still there, but like, I lost one person that was, like, a tier below that, which is, because I have three tiers. And so things are fine. I mean, I'm not seeing a big increase, or really any movement on the revenue because of the churn at that level, at that more expensive level. But I'm pretty excited about some of the things I'm going to be trying to do in the next couple months. My summer is crazy. So I had at first resigned myself to just not really working on Simple File Upload for a couple months. I was like, I'm just gonna let it sit. It's doing great. It requires almost no customer support. But then, 
 
Michele Hansen  15:32
I mean, a thousand dollars a month, and then it recurs is like. 
 
Colleen Schnettler  15:35
Right! It's like, I mean, okay, can we talk about how awesome this is? By the way, this is awesome. Like, after fees and stuff, after I pay my hosting fees, and my storage fees and my Heroku fees, I clear like 606, 650. Like, that's like, pretty cool. 
 
Michele Hansen  15:52
Yeah.
 
Colleen Schnettler  15:53
It's like, I'm not so much. So I wasn't upset about this. But like, I just needed to see kind of where my life was and what I was doing. And I was like, I might just have to sit on this for a couple months because I don't have the time. But then I got an idea. So I am going to take, really what happened is I was really inspired talking to Sean last week about 30x500. I have never taken that course. But I read, like, everything Amy Hoy writes on the internet, and so I kind of feel like I get the idea behind Sales Safari, the idea being find where your customers hang out and find out what their problems are. Conceptually, it seems easy. I just haven't had time to do that. And him, he said last week that he spent 80 hours. Think about that. So he was trolling Reddit forums for 80 hours. That is a lot. 
 
Michele Hansen  16:45
I mean, I probably already do that, and there's no business purpose behind it.
 
Colleen Schnettler  16:49
It's just no focus to it, right? So, so that's, so I really think I'm at this inflection point where what I have is working. It's doing great. I don't need to build new, more features until I know what features people need. And as we talked about, I think two weeks ago, different audiences want different features. As a solo founder, I do, with a job, I don't have the bandwidth to build all the features for everybody. Like, I'm not trying to take on CloudFlare, right. I really want to niche down and find my people and build for my people. I can't do that until I know who my people are, and I still don't really know. So, I am going to hire someone to do some of the Sales Safari research for me since I don't have time. 
 
Michele Hansen  17:42
Oh.
 
Colleen Schnettler  17:43
Yeah. So I'm kind of pumped. And by someone I mean, my sister. She, yeah, so it's like, you talk about how, like, you love having a business with Mathias.  I would love to have a business with my sister. Like, I would love for her to be able to work for me, for this to become a real company, and, you know, for us to do this together. So she is just coming off her maternity leave. She has decided not to go back to her job. So she has only a little bit of time because she doesn't have a lot of childcare, so she has, like, one day a week that she's going to work for me doing marketing research and Sales Safari, and I was to kind of trying to teach her, like, what I think is useful. We're both kind of learning as we go, neither of us really knows we're just making it up. And we're gonna do that for the summer and kind of see where it takes us. 
 
Michele Hansen  17:55
Yeah. Wow, wait, so what is her background in? 
 
Colleen Schnettler  18:35
She's an environmental consultant.
 
Michele Hansen  18:37
Oh.
 
Colleen Schnettler  18:40
So she actually, it's in no way relevant. But she's, so really the deal is she's a writer. So in her job as a consultant, what they do is they, they have to write these, like, epic report. So her background is really in writing. So originally, she was gonna write content for me, and she wrote me a couple pieces, but it's really hard to come in, since she doesn't have the technical background, it's, I, and my, my audience is developers, like, I need really technical content. So I don't think she's going to fit as a technical writer. But she's going to do, she's taking a class in SEO. So she's going to do, like, keyword research, and she's going to jump into the forums and Reddit and try and like, find out what people's pain points are surrounding file uploads.
 
Michele Hansen  19:24
You know, it sounds like you guys have a good working relationship together.
 
Colleen Schnettler  19:31
Oh, yeah, for sure. I mean, all problems, this stuff that I was thinking about. All problems are people problems, right? So, if you want to control your business, and I'm just hypothesizing here, the number one most important people, but the number one most important thing is the people you work with, and I can't think of anyone else I'd rather work with. So, I think she'll figure it out, or she'll hate it and if she hates it, then she won't do it anymore. I'll find someone else. But that's kind of our plan. I'm pretty excited. 
 
Michele Hansen  20:02
Like, yeah, you, if you have someone that you work well with, and you believe that they're capable of learning what you would need them to learn, then, you know, like, you trust them. 
 
Colleen Schnettler  20:17
Yes.
 
Michele Hansen  20:17
And that matters. 
 
Colleen Schnettler  20:18
Yes. Yes. So yeah. So this summer, for me, is really for, for Simple File Upload, I think, is really going to be a focus on figuring out what niche to serve. I was talking to another friend, and he just got a new job, and he works for a big event management company. And he pointed out, you know, he was, he actually mentioned you, because he listened to the podcast, and he was like, these huge companies, they don't care about the little guys who are making a million dollars a year. And his point was, they don't care. So he's like, if you can carve out a niche in one of these huge industries, like, you can be incredibly successful, and like, these big guys, they don't care. 
 
Michele Hansen  20:58
No. And you know, on your sister, it might be really interesting to have her do interviews with people because she will be completely coming in with a beginner's mindset. Like, I find this is something that is difficult for people to adjust to like, like, we've talked about when, when someone says like, oh, like, could I do this? And you start thinking through, like, whether they could and how you would implement it, or you know- 
 
Colleen Schnettler  21:23
Right. 
 
Michele Hansen  21:24
Talk about what they wanted to do, and you just like, oh, of course, you wanted to do this because of this, and like, you don't even question it. But she, but she would be like, well, why do you want to upload a file in the first place? Like,
 
Colleen Schnettler  21:33
Right. 
 
Michele Hansen  21:33
Well, how is that, how does that work? Because she's genuinely beginner. Like, I feel like, in some ways, the fact that I don't have a geography background has been an advantage for-
 
Colleen Schnettler  21:45
Yeah.
 
Michele Hansen  21:46
You know, for this because like, I don't come in, you know, with it, with all of these preconceived notions about why someone would want to do this. 
 
Colleen Schnettler  21:56
Yeah.
 
Michele Hansen  21:56
So I think that can be really interesting when she gets her feet wet, and kind of a sense of what's going on, to try to talk to the customers. 
 
Colleen Schnettler  22:05
I think that's a great idea. I hope we can grow into that. I definitely think there's opportunity there. I think of her as like you, and I'm like Mathias in the power couple building of a company. So we'll see. I mean, she wants to get into mark, we kind of are going down this route, because I don't have enough time. I want to do it, I need to do it, and she wants to, really she wants to transition into a remote career that's flexible, like most parents, and she's really interested in SEO and marketing. So, I think it's gonna be a fun little adventure. I'm excited to see what she finds out. Part of this was also, I think we've talked a lot about, I have an interest in no-code. So I had a call with the Jetboost IO founder, Chris.
 
Michele Hansen  22:51
Yeah, Chris.
 
Colleen Schnettler  22:52
Who, I believe, you know, as well, because you're a mentor and he-
 
Michele Hansen  22:55
Yeah, I mentor him through Earnest Capital. I literally just had a call with him the other day.
 
Colleen Schnettler  23:02
So I had a call with him, independent of your call with him. 
 
Michele Hansen  23:06
Which we didn't know about.
 
Colleen Schnettler  23:07
Which we did not plan, to talk about opportunities in the webflow space. And, so I think one of the first things I'm going to have my sister, well, not the first, but one of the things my sister is going to try and do this month is really see if there's a need in Webflow. The thing about Webflow is, in 2018, Webflow introduced their own file uploader. So before that, there was a huge need for it. Now, they have their own file uploader. So it might be that what I provide is no longer, you know, something people need or want. So before I go and build an integration with Webflow, I'm going to have her do some Sales Safari research. They have really active forums to kind of see what people are looking forward to see if there's opportunity there. 
 
Michele Hansen  23:54
Yeah, Chris was telling me that they have a, like, feature upload, like a feature up vote thing where people go in and request features.  It's exciting.
 
Colleen Schnettler  24:03
Yeah, I think it's gonna be great. I think, I think it'll be fun. It'll be good to have someone actually dedicated to reading Reddit and Webflow forums and Heroku forums and whatever, to try to identify, you know, the need there and in the file uploading space. And then with the SEO research, you know, I can then either write the content myself or hire someone to write technical content, depending on my time commitments, my time, you know, what I can do, so. Yeah. Yeah, I saw that. I think, you know, the interesting thing about file uploading and Webflow is they have a maximum size of 10 megs, and I, you can't do multiple file uploads at the same time. So the question is, how many people really care? Like, who really, did, are there enough people that are uploading large files, or want to do maximum, or, I'm sorry, want to do multiple file uploads at a time that it would be worth it for me to make an integration into that space. So, so, you know, she's going to kind of dive into that and see what we can find out and like, this is just gonna be a fun marketing learning time because I built this thing because I wanted to build something, as you know, and I'm really happy that I built something to scratch my own need because it's worked out really well. But I still haven't really honed in on who I can serve best, and there's lots of opportunities out there, so.
 
Michele Hansen  25:42
There's a lot to be, I think, sort of learned and discovered here, and, and also that SEO work you can do, that, like, that can also inform the kind of feature development that you do, too, like, because there, I mean, this just happened to us the other day, like there was something that I noticed we had a couple of customers ask us how to do, and so I wrote up an article about how to do it, and then, but like, to basically do it manually. And then I just saw this morning that it's, like, our top performing growing piece of content and has like a 400% increase in clicks, and-  Wow. And looking into like, oh, how might we add that? And it's like, okay, maybe we should like there's, you know, SEO isn't just for bringing in customers, but also for figuring out what, what people might want as well. 
 
Colleen Schnettler  26:38
Yeah, and you've said before, I think that SEO is your number one channel? Activation channel?
 
Michele Hansen  26:44
Yeah. We, we don't run paid ads. We don't do any outbound sales. Like, we occasionally sponsor conferences, but that's mostly because, like, our friends run them, and it's just like, kind of- 
 
Colleen Schnettler  27:00
Yeah.
 
Michele Hansen  27:00
To support our friends, like we're a sponsor of Longhorn PHP, the Texas PHP conference. But like, that's just because our friend runs it. 
 
Colleen Schnettler  27:12
Okay. 
 
Michele Hansen  27:13
It's not very, like, organized or intentional. It's just like, sure, like, we'll help you out. 
 
Colleen Schnettler  27:18
Now, when you do SEO, do you do, like, now you just said, like, you were talking to a customer and then you got this idea of a good page, but do you do traditional keyword research as well?
 
Michele Hansen  27:34
Maybe? Like, we use Ahrefs. 
 
Colleen Schnettler  27:36
Yeah, I don't, okay.
 
Michele Hansen  27:39
I don't know, I still don't know how to pronounce the name of that company. 
 
Colleen Schnettler  27:42
I know, yeah, I don't either. 
 
Michele Hansen  27:43
But yeah, Ahrefs, we use that. We used Google Search Console for a long time, which is honestly a really good tool, and it's free, because Ahrefs is, is pretty expensive. But yeah, you can do keyword research and rankings and referrers and all that kind of stuff. I don't keep a super close eye on it. Um, but yeah, whenever we're, you know, we, every so often, like every couple weeks or so we go in and look at what content is performing and what else we might need and whatnot.
 
Colleen Schnettler  28:19
Cool. Yeah, I don't know. I really haven't done, I've done absolutely zero keyword research. So I think it's probably worth our time to put a little bit of effort into that to see what people are searching for to get a better idea of how to use those tools.
 
Michele Hansen  28:36
Yeah, I mean, our approach is, you know, find those keywords and then write stuff that people might be searching for and show them how to do it with Geocodio, and I think I like that because I, and I think we talked about this is kind of something that I have struggled with with the book, is, like, I struggle with sounding salesy, like and writing, like conversion copy, like, it's just really something that I feel like I sound way too infomercial-y when I tried to write it. Like, you know, there are people who are really good at writing conversion copy and sounding like a natural human being when they write it, like, I mean, you know, Amy Hoy is one of those people. But I, you know, I might as well you know, be like, hocking something on the Home Shopping Network when I try to write it. So, so like writing be like, oh, you're searching for geocoding? Hello, we do geocoding. Here is how you can do it in like, like, all of these different ways you can do it and rephrasing all of those different things. And then here's where you can try it. And then here's where you can do it. And it's very, like, straightforward. That's like, maybe you need it. Maybe you don't. All of those options are fine. Not, like, buy this now or you will die.
 
Colleen Schnettler  29:56
Yeah, I'm hoping with our keyword research and kind of, like, since I haven't done this at all, you know, with what, the marketing research she does, as you've talked about, I think a lot of that is going to inform my content and building out future landing pages. So, that's really going to be a focus for me is like, trying to get content and you know, pages out there that appeal to people.
 
Michele Hansen  30:24
Well, I'm going to be spending the next week working on the book and you're going to be onboarding your sister and getting this research going. Sounds like we got our work cut out for us.  

Colleen Schnettler  30:34
It's gonna be a good week.  

Michele Hansen  30:37
All right. Well, I guess that'll wrap us up for now. Thank you so much for listening, and we'll talk to you next week.

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