Unknown: This is the Full Tilt Podcast with Hatch.
Okay, here we go. Another episode of the Full Tilt
Podcast, and I've got, and probably maybe the most powerful
man in wrestling is that is that you go by that, Rich Bender? No,
by no means. By no means. No, this is this is the executive
director of USA Wrestling, and talk about somebody that has a
monster, monster impact on our sport. This is the guy right
here. So, Rich, I really appreciate your time here, and
this could be a great conversation. Well,
Mike, an honor to be with you today, and yeah, I just-it's
not-it's not Rich Bender, by the way. It's maybe the position has
some story, not the man.
Well, like I said, we're going to get into let's let's pull
this a little bit closer. Yeah, let's go and blow your mouth up
there. Yeah, we're just going to get into just all things USA
Wrestling.
Yeah, let's do it.
And there we go. Now you got your radio voice going. There
you go. Yeah. See, that's this is all technical errors. Like I
said, I'm a I'm a wrestler turned podcaster. So we're
actually a wrestler a long time ago, early '90s. But now state
chairman turned podcaster, I guess. But wrestler
at the core.
That's it right there. So we're gonna get into things, all all
things USA wrestling. Obviously, we're here at Fargo, and you
know, no better to no no better person to talk USA wrestling
with than the executive director himself. So again, we appreciate
your time. But we're here at the largest tournament in the world.
Is that correct?
Yeah, I'd say it's. I mean, there's there's a little
discussion about that. We we we've looked into the Guinness
Book of World Records and certainly the largest indoor
wrestling tournament in the world. There's some, I believe
it's in Kazakhstan or Kyrgyzstan, some like massive
event that has a, you know, everybody and their brother
participating in some tournament. But it's not really
wrestling. But certainly the the largest wrestling tournament in
the world, in our eyes, for sure.
What do we get this year for entries? Oh, we're
we're we're going to be right around 8500. Wow. Yeah, another
record,
I think.
Yeah, we're going to be close. I mean, it's going to depend on
whether the you know the the girls weigh in the numbers that
that are pre registered, and if they do, I think we're going to
be really close. If not, we're going to be within, you know,
3040, of an all-time record.
Yeah, yeah. Well, you mentioned the girls. I mean, just the
explosion of girls wrestling is just. I mean, and you've seen it
from its infancy stages. So, I mean, kind of go a little bit,
and let's let's let's go start on the girls. Yeah. So, I mean,
it's amazing, and
you know, funny story. So, in 1988, I started USA Wrestling as
an intern, and to fulfill my college curriculum, I had to do
a paper, and and or an assignment specifically that was
a paper, and and I was given the task of writing a paper on why
USA Wrestling should fund the very first women's world team in
1989 to the World Championships, so and it was cool to be
involved at the sport from with the sport. You know, it's very
infancy, and and certainly, you know, I think there's, I mean,
there's tons of data that would show you know the growth and the
unprecedented growth and how popular it is. But I mean, at
its core, it's it shouldn't be surprising in terms of you know
how how important wrestling is, and the benefits that wrestling
brings to to males for 1000s of years, that that that should be
the same benefit for women. And you know early on that became
really evident to us that as soon as we could get to scale, I
mean there were some headwinds around the development of the
sport, when when primarily girls' only opportunities to
wrestle were against guys or boys, and certainly there were
some headwinds there with you know some foundational people in
in the in the in the wrestling movement that didn't didn't
really agree with that. But once we were able to get to scale,
where I mean now girls, there's you know there'll be a lot of
girls wrestling here this week that that really haven't
wrestled many guys, and you know you look five years ago that
wasn't the case, and I think that was almost like pouring jet
fuel on the fire when we got to scale and and you know girls
could have the experience with the same benefits that guys have
and not have to you know mess with the challenges of you know
cross gender participation and you know some religious beliefs
and you know just some inequities around you know male
and female development physically. So once we got
there, man, it's been off to the races and and the sport is you
know it will continue to grow. You know, funny story. When we
when we hired Terry Steiner in 2002, it was a bit of a
challenge to get him convinced that he should he should be the
the women's wrestling coach for for Team USA. And true story, he
had called me about applying for a job and and. I can't remember
what university it was. He he was applying for a coaching
position, and I said, "Well, you know, I'd be honored to write
you a letter of recommendation, but why don't you come to work
for us? And he said, "Doing what? And so we talked about the
women's program, and he was apprehensive at first, but you
know, certainly he you know he he said some pretty profound
things in the in in the process, and when we ultimately got
agreement that he was going to be our first coach. By the way,
he said, "Okay, I'll do it, but I'll give you two years. You
know, and that was in 2002. So, yeah, he's been he's been at it
and become without question the the number one women's wrestling
coach on the planet. But you know, his point was, hey, I
understand the benefits that wrestling have have given to
certainly me and my my twin brother, and I started thinking
about my daughter, and and there's no reason that she
shouldn't have those same benefits if she chooses to
wrestle, and so for him it was just you know wrestling has this
this kind of magical impact on people's lives, and that's
that's not it's not just because they're guys, and so I mean
that's that's that's I think pretty profound in terms of you
know the the power of our sport.
That I mean we know I mean we both know you know I don't think
you go very far to talk to anybody that was a wrestler that
draws their identity to that, and whether that's someone that
was a, you know, Olympic champion or someone that just
was impacted by the sport, maybe at the junior high, high school
level, and and man, it's pretty magical and pretty cool, and you
know, it's awesome to see women have those same benefits today,
and you know, really without restriction, right? And so it's
it's pretty cool.
Plus, have a guy like Terry Stein. So I I was teammates with
with Terry, and well, obviously Android back in the early '90s.
And man, I remember when he when he took that job. I was like,
dang! First of all, I was like, man, how did you say wrestling
get Terry there? Because I mean, that's I mean, it was a big
tire. I mean, he's you know because he was obviously
successful on the men's side, and he was, you know, still, you
know, I think might have been still competing maybe a little
bit, or probably could have, but I was like, dude, that is huge
for women's wrestling. Yeah, I tell you,
I'll tell you a little more about that story. So, I mean,
after you know, and it was, it was a little bit of a random,
and I, I mean, I've known known Terry and Troy for you know most
of their competitive career, and you know we we when he when he
called me for for that job reference, I mean it just kind
of it it struck me that man this guy has the right personality
right he can bring relevancy to to the to the position you know
he can bring credibility and you know he just if you spend 10
minutes around Terry Steiner, he's got a pretty unique
personality, and obviously, you know, one of the most fierce
wrestlers ever, one of them, and yet has that that side of him
that just plays really well with with female female athletes, and
so we had kind of went back and forth, and as I said earlier, he
was pretty resistant to the idea, and and then I I I
realized that his wife Jody was going to have some impact on
this decision, and and if you've met Jody Zuger, his his wife,
you know, big personality cares deeply about about wrestling and
the impact that it has on women, and and so we had kind of, and
she's around both those guys when they were training and when
competing, and there was times when I was running events, and
she would call me after, "What do these guys got to do? I'm so
frustrated. They they work so hard, and because obviously, you
know, both elite wrestlers, but right, the the water is really
deep at the highest level of our our sport and just you know
we're having a hard time breaking through. But anyway, so
I'd known Jody through through those interactions and and in
this process I'd kind of hit a little bit of roadblock with
Terry and connected with Jody and we talked a lot about you
know the opportunity and talked a lot about Raven even though
Raven their daughter didn't wrestle, but like opportunities
for her and where Terry could really make a difference, and
and finally Jody said, you know, Rich, hey, he's he's taking this
job, and so I kind of went kind of dark on Terry a little bit,
thinking, hey, they'll they're gonna once she said that to me,
we got him right, and so Terry, I I hadn't called him for you
know a week or so, and he called me and said, "Hey, did you did
you go in another direction? And I said, "No, we didn't go in
another direction. He goes, "Well, why didn't heard from
you? I said, "Well, because your wife told me you're taking the
job. So so we got. I mean, obviously he was all in from day
one. Yeah. But and that's you know another reason why Terry
six Terry's so successful is that family unit at home. I
mean, Jody's involved and and she cares and and man, just like
I mean, it's so helpful to have that support system at home and
you know because it you know wasn't necessarily popular. A
lot of people who saw Terry as an up and coming. D1 coach, and
you know he's he's he's proven that it was a good decision.
Yeah,
and you know he's had just a massive impact. I would say is
probably as consequential a guy as there is in the world when
he's wrestling, and yeah, we're blessed to have him. You know, I
it's kind of cool to be here in North Dakota this week because
he and he and Troy are getting the the Teddy Roosevelt Award
later this year, which is the the award given the highest
award given to a citizen in North Dakota by the governor,
and so we're going to celebrate that award in in the fall in in
Bismarck. So I mean he's he's been being he and Troy both are
being recognized for for their impact, and but man, we're
blessed by by the Steiner family for sure.
There's no two more deserving people there getting that award.
Those guys are, they. I mean, again, I was just fortunate
enough to spend. I think was about was probably I know two
years as teammates, another year or two. You know, was when
they're second in that club, and I just they're just they're the
best. You can't you can't beat the Steiner, yeah. Just the
Steiner guys. They are just the best, and they've got such a
quirky like like personality, sense of humor. It's it's so
funny funny talking about a sense of humor. So
you know we travel a ton, right? And you know I I had a kind of a
personal philosophy that, and you know certainly you know we
we we buy coach class tickets to go everywhere and you know when
you travel as much as we do you you sometimes get upgraded
yeah yeah
and you know these complimentary upgrades and I I have had a kind
of a personal philosophy that hey I'm not going to sit up
front when there's athletes on board
yeah
and you know I don't travel a lot with the team so it doesn't
really impact me that much, and and Terry knew that knows that I
that I you know done that before, or that was my
philosophy. And I we got on a plane one time with the team,
and I was you know going to the back, and Terry was sitting up
front. He said, "Hey, Steiner, what the heck? What do you mean?
He goes, "Hey, boss, I'm leading from the front on this one. So,
but man, just I mean, and that that's that's I mean, Terry
Steiner is this selfless of of coach that that I've ever been
around in my life, and you know, obviously, we all know in this
sport to be successful like he was as a as an athlete, you got
to be really selfish, and to make that transition to that
selflessness, which, and I, you know, I, I think it's true. I
mean, it's probably even more under the magnifying glass with
our women's team
in
terms of, you know, it's, it's, it's, they're, you know,
sometimes wired a little differently in terms of, you
know, trust plays a big factor, certainly in in coaching
anybody, male or or female, but you know Terry has developed an
incredible level of trust with our team and in the program, and
I think that's been you know a part of reason he's been so
successful.
Now these national team coaches, because obviously you got him on
the get Terry on the on the women's side, and then you got
Bill on the men's side. It's kind of a unique role. I mean,
just because of the RTCs and just the different landscape
that we have here in the United States, far as from a
development standpoint, it's almost like when you're looking
for somebody to fill that position, they've got to be not
only obviously you know incredibly competent in
wrestling and techniques and tactics and stuff, but really,
almost more so, just competent with people, yeah, and just
managing a bunch of different, you know, development that goes
on out around the country.
And those jobs have really evolved over the last 40 years.
You know, where I mean, it used to be that if it wasn't for what
USA Wrestling was doing, or the USWF or the AAU before that, our
our team USA athletes weren't really getting anything. Yeah.
So they would come to Colorado Springs for like conditioning
and training, and camps would be a month long. And we talking to
you know Bruce Baumgart about that, or we had a camp this
recently. It was three days, and which you know back in the day
that was I mean, it was the only place that athletes at the very
highest level could get that kind of coaching and training.
More importantly, and it's it's evolved to where you know with
regional training centers now, I mean there are legit
opportunities in countless locations around this country to
get the very best training partners, the very best
coaching, and the very best facilities and support that you
know make the roles a little bit different for for actually all
three of the coaches have have different roles. Terry, I would
say of the three is you know more I guess connectedness you
know on a on a daily basis in terms of more girls or women in
Colorado Springs than than men's freestyle and you know Greco.
It's there's it's similar to the to the to the women's program
where there's a higher concentration of our of our
number one or elite athletes there. But yeah, these all three
of these coaches have had to adapt, right? And I mean
relationships. Are so so critical, and it's you know
obviously more difficult to build trust, more difficult to
build those legitimate relationships when you're not
seeing them a lot, seeing them a lot, and so when you do have
those opportunities to be around our elite athletes, you can't
miss right. You got you got to be on your A game, and we're
just like as I said, we're blessed by Terry. We're also
blessed, but to have a coaching staff in our Greco program, led
by Herb House and and Bill Zadick, who you know both bring,
well, all three bring incredibly high levels of of integrity to
to the to the job, and you know you just it's nuanced. You have
to, I mean, you have to. You can't treat all the athletes the
same just because they're in different scenarios and need
different things from from USA Wrestling, and you know. But
with the you know the incredible impact that regional training
centers have had on on our elite program, our coaches have had to
adapt to work with those, and you know, in a lot of ways,
there's a lot of truth to this idea of hey, it's amazing what
you can do, and nobody cares about who gets the credit.
Yeah, and that's where
I mean, Bill and all three of our, and actually all of our
national coaches have had to be humble around the idea that hey,
it's you know, there's other people that are having a big
impact, and you know, we we go out of our way to try to not be
in the spotlight. That's why we're we're so committed to
these personal coaches and our coaches that are working with
athletes on a daily basis to be involved and recognize when you
know when success happens.
Yeah, fantastic. Getting back to the women's side of it. What was
the first year that the women's was in the Olympics? Was it oh
40404? What was
the Athens?
Yeah, Athens. What was the what was was there was there a ton of
difficulties and a ton of pushback as far as getting the
women's wrestling into the Olympics? Yeah,
I mean I don't know. I mean
because it wasn't good to see Olympics and now it's a big
yeah. So so early
on, we had a pretty unique strategy around how we're going
to develop this this sport. And right as I said earlier, I mean,
men have been at this for 1000s of years, and women since '04.
Right. And I mean, obviously, we talked about it. You know, early
'90s, late '80s, early '90s, where you know there were there
were world championships for for women, but we had a pretty
unique approach to the development. Thinking that the
most important thing that we could do was to secure the
Olympic designation, because that would give us the
credibility that we would need to build the sport from from the
bottom up. That if we had this kind of you know castle on a
hill, or this this tower on a hill that you know women and and
females, and and those in Russley could could chase that
we could build an infrastructure from from from the bottom up. So
you know that's why you know with once we had the Olympic
designation before we had the NCA designation, or even high
school recognition of women as a standalone sport in in high
schools. So I mean that was our approach, and you know that
there there there certainly there was early on headwinds,
and you know when it came to not everybody you know was
comfortable with it, like you know, and I, I mean, I was
blessed because early on I saw, I mean, that hey, this this is
this is the right thing to do, right? It's like fighting to
stay stay on the Olympic program is the right thing to do. You're
not trying to convince somebody that's not, you know, some
convince someone of something that's not not the right thing,
and it was the right thing to do. So we had that kind of as a
motivation, and you know, as I said also earlier, that once we
could get to scale, because I think the biggest headwind was,
my God, my son's not wrestling a girl, or you know, my son got
beat by a girl, and he's you know, he's he's life's over,
yeah, yeah, and but man, and so that's
very real though, yeah, and so I
think once we we got there, and then you know, with the input of
folks like Terry Steiner, I mean, the the technical level of
women's wrestling just went, I mean, just off the charts. Yeah,
you know, you you know, people would always criticize lots, and
that's like junior high wrestling, and man, I tell you
right now, you you you watch this sport even this weekend.
You watch the the women's tournament this weekend. There
are some incredibly technical wrestlers in in the pipeline,
and women's wrestling. The technical level in women's
wrestling is you know grown just as fast as their participation
has. Oh,
because I mean now I mean because just I mean we'll get
into like all the clubs and NIL stuff and all that. We've
already touched on RTCs a little bit, but this is kind of one of
the things that I see that's help really helping the
development as well now these days. Is now the way that the
that this high school and middle school system and the Pee Wee
system is work. It's it's totally changing now. Before it
used to be a deal where when I was wrestling, you'd have a pee
wee program, and then that would feed your middle school program,
and then that would feed your high school program. Now I
didn't like that anymore. Now you start wrestling at your
little beater program, and then you're gonna go find one of
these clubs that's coached by a couple time national champ or a
world champ. I mean, Burl's got a club. Everybody's got a club
now because they know that there's good money in it. And
these guys aren't just coaching boys now; they're coaching
girls.
Yeah, Mikey.
These girls, man, they are getting right out the jump. They
are getting coached up by the best of the best.
And you're hitting on something that that you know has changed
in the sport of wrestling. I mean, it used to be, you know,
decades ago, like taboo for someone to to make a profit on
wrestling. Like this guy's coaching wrestling, getting paid
for exactly. And and it's I mean that has been such a monumental
positive shift for our sport that there is legit businesses
you know and legit resources being you know harvested or
accumulated from the sport that ultimately is being invested
back in. It's not dissimilar to when we you know first did some
of our early on, you know, digital broadcasts where people
had to pay. Where the calls that I would get, like you are the
Antichrist, you know, wrestling you cannot pay to watch
wrestling that pull.
Yep,
and and so you know the professionalization of our sport
has made a massive impact there because now, I mean, it's. I
mean, I I I I say this probably more frequently than I should. I
really feel like we're on the precipice precipice of the
golden age of our sport. I agree. From a lot of you know
aspects, from a business aspect to a technical advancement
aspect to you know the access that wrestlers now have to like
I said, the very best coaches, the very best training partners,
the very best facilities is, you know, I I think the the best
years are ahead for us.
I totally agree. I totally agree. I just I mean you just
you can see it. I mean the bleeding and just even the girl
side guys side doesn't matter the pee wee level. I mean, but
when I first started coaching, I mean I I wrestled Iowa from '91
to '96, and I knew I wanted to be a coach. I mean, that was
just the way it was. And the only way to coach back then was
well, either you were really good and you stuck around a
Division One college program, and then you and I wasn't very
good, so I had to figure out a different way. So I was going to
be a teacher, and that was the only way that you could really
kind of go down that coaching path and actually earn a living.
So I had to go be a teacher, and high school coach and everything
else, and now I mean these kids are coming right out of college,
and they're like, "I'm gonna start a club. Yeah, they're
making good money right out the job, so it's it's awesome. I
mean, it really is. So I'm, yeah, I've been through the I've
been through the ups and downs of it. We're like, you're
charging how much? Yeah. So nowadays, it's like, hey,
listen, it is what it is. I've been around for a while, so
yeah. Yeah,
I mean, it's yeah
It's it's not different than a lot of different sports in terms
of you know the specialization is exactly is a tricky thing
yes
and you know obviously you know these clubs to to be successful
have to have scale right they have to have participation in
most cases year round which I mean we know that you know
sports specialization specialization at a really young
age isn't necessarily a positive thing, and there's not a lot of
correlation between, you know, 789-year-old, success and and
winning the Olympic gold medal. But you know, so there's a
there's a balance there that's you know, maybe not positive all
the time.
Right.
But yeah, it's it's it's cool to see the sport really have a
sustainable business model that that you know gathers rich
talent to to stay involved in the sport and to to give back
and you know I think it's you talk about before we start this
this interview about you know wrestlers and you know hey I'm a
wrestler forever, and you know it's it's it's just cool to see
you know this demographic of the most of our private donors that
are significant contributors to to to the sport in USA Wrestling
have a pretty specific demographic. It's a wrestler
that maybe didn't have a lot of success, but went on to success
in business. That said, hey, the only reason that I've had
success in business is that I was a wrestler. Yeah, I you know
I outwork everybody, and and that's that's really cool to
see. And then when you kind of marry that that attitude with
you know business opportunities, you got some pretty big grinders
out there that can do some pretty cool things.
Yeah, yeah. You you mentioned you know once a wrestler, always
a wrestler. How'd you get how'd you get involved in wrestling?
Yeah, so true story. I was
I started wrestling when I was really young in first or second
grade in Boscobel, Wisconsin. I had a cousin that was
I gotta stop you there. What's the deal with all the Wisconsin
people that's involved with with you say wrestling between you
and Tony the Black, it's like Wisconsin basically runs the
deal. I don't know. Maybe it has something to do with
those of us that were raised behind the cheddar curtain or
something. I don't know. But yeah. Anyway, so I mean, I
started wrestling at a really young age, and and had a cousin
that was a state qualifier. For our high school, that it was my
my hero growing up, and you know, I I went all in on on
wrestling at a very early age. In fact, I have a seventh grade
report card that's in my office today that I have framed that
says my grades in in seventh grade science had went down
pretty significantly. I went like you know down to I mean
they weren't failing but close, and and my science teacher wrote
on the back of the report card wrestling, wrestling, wrestling.
All Rich wants to do is talk about wrestling. Can you tell
him there's more to life than wrestling? And so it's you know
that's how I got started and wrestled all through high
school. Actually played baseball a couple years in college. I
grew up in a really small farming community in
southwestern Wisconsin, where I mean we had to play three sports
to have teams, and I was you know I was I was a better
baseball player than I was a wrestler, but but without
question, it was you know it's been a passion of mine my whole
life. I played football and baseball and wrestled all
through high school, and then played baseball for a couple
years in college, and then you know had entered. I originally
thought I wanted to be a conservation warden or a game
warden. I went to the University of Wisconsin Stevens Point,
small division. Yeah, three schools. Dennis Hall.
Dennis Hall. Yeah, Dennis Hall. Yeah, Dennis Hall. And
and so I went there for a year, and then decided that wasn't
what I wanted to do, and and I I moved back to near closer to my
hometown in Southwestern to went to the University of Wisconsin
Lacrosse, and they started this new sports management. It was
like Ohio University and UW Lacrosse were like the first
schools to offer sports management back in the in the
late '80s, and just had a phenomenal break and
opportunity. I was I was doing what we called old timer
wrestling, and you know on the weekends there would be these
little tournaments that would pop up around you know the area,
and I was wrestling in in the tournaments. And I I wrote on my
resume when I applied for my internship. I wrote my hobby was
wrestling, and I wasn't wrestling in college. I mean, I
was just doing these old timer tournaments. And a guy named
Toby Stewart and Ben Bennett were at USA Wrestling looking to
pick an intern at the time. You know, the USOPC had had this
internship program, and literally 1000s of people apply
for these internships. Which I mean, my advisor in college at
University of Wisconsin actually told me, "Don't apply because
you're not a great wrestler, and and your you know your grades
aren't that good. And but I happened to write hobby. My
hobby was wrestling, and Toby Stewart saw that on a resume,
and I was a B, so the stack of resumes that he pulled out of
this, you know, stack of 1000s. I was a B, so I was on the top,
and you know, one of the first people they called was me, and I
hit it off with with Ben Bennett originally, and you know, he
offered me the internship and came, you know, restless kind of
history. So
that's it, huh? Yeah, just you worked your way up through.
Yeah,
I started as an intern, and funny story, my very first day
at USA Wrestling as an intern. So, if you're selected as an
intern through the U.S. Olympic Committee program, you live at
the training center. So, I, you know, I hadn't really been out
of Wisconsin and never been on an airplane, and drove out to to
Colorado Springs, got all checked into the to the to the
dorms at the at the Olympic Training Center and Monday
morning you know had my my shirt and tie on I went over to USA
Wrestling I walked in and there was a gal there named Jennifer
Teal who was end up being a dear friend of mine but she was the
the receptionist and I said hey you know I'm Rich Bender and I'm
your intern and she shook her head like this and and I said,
and by the way, I mean, I needed this to graduate from college. I
mean, I was all done with all my classwork. The last thing to get
my degree was a internship. Really, and so she shook her
head, and we're not we're not having an intern. I said, no,
no, no, no. It's I'm not asking if I can be an intern. I'm I'm
your intern, and she goes, you're not listening to me.
We're not having any intern. I said, "Well, can I talk to Ben
Bennett? And she said, "No, he got fired last week. And so I
and I said, "Well, can I talk to whoever's in charge? And she
goes, "No, because he we already talked about it, and you know
we're not having an intern this this semester. So I I didn't
know what to do. So I got back in my truck and I drove back
over to the training center, and this, the guy that was guy named
Bob Paul was a Hall of Fame media guy, was happened to be
coordinating the intern program that year, and I told him the
story, and he goes, "What? And so he calls over to gets the
same Jennifer Teal at the office at USA Wrestling, and she tells
him the same thing. We're not, you know, mr. Paul, we're not
having an intern, and he goes. You let me talk to Dave Miller,
and Dave Miller was the was the CEO at the time. And Dave, you
know, kind of tells him, "Hey, look, we're struggling. Like
they're they're we're struggling. We can't we can't
have an intern. And this Bob Paul says to him to Dave, he
goes, "Well, let me tell you something. This guy drove all
the way out here from Wisconsin." And he needs this
internship to graduate. And if you can't figure it out, I'm
going to have to talk to somebody about your funding. And
which I mean, I I hoped he was just joking that he weren't. But
and so Dave Miller says, who had never met before and ended up
being a really good friend of mine, says, "Well, where's he
from? And the guy puts the phone down. You know, we're in cell
phones, and he goes, "Where are you from? When I said, "I'm from
Basqueville, Wisconsin, and he says that to Dave Miller, and
Dave Miller said, "Send him right over because Dave's from
Madison. Oh, and so I go over there and and I sit down with
Dave, and he goes, "Look, we are struggling, right? We I don't
know if I mean if we're going to be able to stay in business. I
mean, we're really struggling financially, and there's,
there's, I don't, I don't have a program for you. You know, Ben
was gonna be your supervisor, and he's not here anymore. And
he said, "But I'll tell you what: if, if you, if you agree
not to like smash me and say, 'Hey, I came here for this
internship and they weren't prepared, we'll figure it out. I
said, "Dave, I promise you, I'll wash the windows, I'll, I'll
vacuum the floor.
I'll do whatever you want me to do, and I promise you, you I
won't I won't slam you for that. So it wasn't probably a month
into the internship. He came in my office one day and said,
"Hey, would would you think about sticking around here after
your internship? And so you know, I started as an events
intern. Then after my internship ended, and you know, Gary Abbas
always teases me because I always say, "Hey, I started at
USA Wrestling in July of
1988,
and Gary Abbas says, "No, you didn't. You started in January
one of '89 because that's when you started getting. That's
when. That's when. Sorry.
Oh, you're good. That's only fitting. Yeah, that's when
three. That's
when you started getting paid. So, yeah. So I started at
$15,000 a year at USA Wrestling in 1989, and yeah, was able to
to work my way up within the organization, and you know
worked for Dave Miller for a while, and then Jim Shear for 10
years. Who you know was a massive mentor for me. I owe owe
a lot to you know what I learned from Jim and the opportunities
that he gave me, and things like being the competition manager
for Atlanta in '96, and then coming back as our associate
executive director and responsible for national teams
and events. It it gave me some foundation. So then, when Jim
was given an opportunity to move to the U.S. Olympic Committee,
that you know Bruce Baumgart. Ironically, Bruce Baumgart was
in the the last part of his term as president of USA Wrestling,
and then you know one of the last things he did before he was
done with that term was was offer me the job, and so that
was in in 2000. So not long after the the not long after the
games in 2000, so late in 2000, and then in 2000, you know I
think it was either late 2000 or early 2001. I was you know they
took the interim title off, and you know I've been now you know
there for what 26 years.
Wow, that's crazy. Yeah, how that all started? Yeah, that is
nuts. Yeah, I mean, so USA Wrestling was in that bad a
shape then.
Yeah, I mean there was. I mean, and at the end of the day, it
was, and it wasn't. You know, we didn't have the membership. I
mean, right now, I mean, the the driver of the you know, the
financial resources that USA Wrestling has to reinvest in
sport, which I think we have no bigger responsibility as staff
members and those that that you know have some responsibility in
sport than to to be great managers of the precious
resources that we are entrusted with. Meaning, a lot of times
that's membership, right? We the the straw that stirs the drink
for USA Wrestling is our membership. The 400, almost
400,000 members that pay that that that those membership dues
every year is. I mean, that's that's the foundation by which
we do everything. You know this, and and so you know I don't
think we have any any bigger responsibility. But back then we
didn't have that kind of membership. I mean, a really
small membership, and obviously because
who was kind of leading the whole wrestling charge back
then? Was that AAU back then? Well, I mean, USA
Wrestling had taken over.
Yeah,
but it was. I mean, it was USWF and then USA Wrestling. But I
mean, there just wasn't there there there there there wasn't
the resources available, and and Dave Miller, and I've I've said
this lots of times. Dave Miller was a visionary, and just you
know probably a little bit ahead of his time in terms of you know
had the ideas of you know where USA Wrestling could go, and just
you know we didn't have the the financial infrastructure to to
do it, and so yeah, it got it got. I mean, there were. I mean,
Jim Shear. It's pretty well documented when he came on Dave
Miller moved on and Jim Shear was hired. I think in one day he
fired 17 people in one day, and you know, we you know it's not a
funny thing, but it just you know Jim had the the courage.
And and to know what had to happen, and to be honest with
you, that you know we were off to the races after that, where
we could you know start to you know operate in a in an
environment where you know we could you know take on new
responsibilities and new have new impact when we had the
resources. Not you know this is Dave had the had the vision,
just not the resources to back it up. So yeah, there were some
really lean, lean, lean times, you know, in those in early
'90s. Wow! And but yeah, Jim Shear, Jim Shear turned it
around, and you know we've been pretty blessed since.
Yeah, you mentioned you mentioned Jim Shear. I I haven't
met Jim. I had Bill my podcast. Yeah, he was awesome. I mean,
he's literally like one of the most impressive people I've sat
down with. I mean, talk about I mean, not only just a obviously
legendary wrestler, but just his persona and just how intelligent
he is, and just I mean, just really, really super impressive
person. Obviously, they were and you were a part of it. Is
getting the Olympic getting us, but back on the Olympic card.
Yeah,
best things ever happened to wrestling.
Man, yeah, take us through that back. Yeah, so 2013 Bills side
of it, but yeah, so
and and Bill was um, you know, Bill and Jim both were were very
very important players in that in that in that whole process to
to to get back on the program. But you know, it all started and
you know when Jock Rogue, who was the president of the IOC,
had this kind of mandate that he was going to modernize the
Olympic Games. And there's for for a long time there's been
this idea that the games are just not manageable. There's too
many athletes, and this commitment that hey, first we're
going to we're going to we're going to constrict it down to
10,000 athletes, and then they realize that you know they they
couldn't get within under 10,000 athletes, so it was 10,500
athletes. And then, so part of that whole mandate of making the
games more manageable was the idea of this modernization. So,
at the time, there were 26 sports on the Olympic program.
Wrestling was included, and Jacques Rogue's mandate was
we're going to add two more sports to the Olympic program to
make it 28, and then we're going to look at the 28 and take
another one off and put another one on, and the process was such
that you know when it got to 28, it was just a recommendation by
an executive committee of like 12 people, just kind of a random
group of people that were going to make this recommendation. So
they they added rugby seven in golf to take the program from 26
to 28. Wrestling still on the program, and then went to an
executive committee meeting. And most people, in fact, we were
paying attention to it because we knew there was a vote. And
all of our, you know, inside IOC people now at the time,
wrestling didn't have anybody on the inside of the IOC, nobody.
So we were dealing with USOC, international relations people,
and and I remember having a conversation with one of their
execs the day before the vote, and he said, you know, I I have
to give it to your president. He's he's kept you guys out of
the discussion, right? So wrestling's not getting, it's
not in the discussion. That it's gonna, it'll be modern
pentathlon. That was what what he told me, and and so I went to
bed that night. That's that's what I was thinking. But so
they're in this room, and modern pentathlon by most, you know, if
there was betting going on, they would have been the the favorite
to to be eliminated. I mean, there's five disciplines that
are already all in the Olympics anyway in their own right, and
it's really expensive to to host that at the games, and it's not
really broadly participated. And so, the the wild card was you
can talk about sometimes it's not what you know, you know,
it's who you know. The vice president of the International
Modern Pentathlon Federation is on the executive board of the
IOC, so he's in the room. And and I have this is a philosophy
that I you know I you know I guess maybe we could prove it to
be true or not. But the the first vote comes, and
wrestling's named by a couple of people, and they don't, you
know, they had to get to. I think it was seven to get to the
decision. So there were, you know, 13 people. So seven was a
majority. And then the next vote, wrestling dropped down. I
think had one or two vote, one vote. And then modern pentathlon
was was getting closer to the to the seven. And then the third
vote comes and there's seven for wrestling, and I have this
philosophy that it was just a situation that the seven people
thought, well, there's no way we're kicking wrestling off the
Olympic program. I can look this guy in the face and say I didn't
vote for you or for this sport, and wrestling was caught in a
just like a weird scenario. Now we were in that position because
we had an international federation that totally
disrespected the process because the IOC, you know, went to some
painstaking efforts to put together these these documents
and volumes of data about you know how widely the sport has
participated in our international federation. Just
told them to go fly a kite. We're not, you know, we're not
doing it.
And and one of the and so we actually got a copy of the the
document that they had completed. And I'll just give
you an example how how they disregarded it. They said the
one of the questions was, how many times has wrestling been
participated on the Pan American Games program, well, the answer
is every one, right? And they put two. And so, not even, I
mean, like somebody just like,
wow,
just turned it in. But so I mean, that's why wrestling, you
know, because you have staff members then within the IOC who
are not are not fans of wrestling because of you know
the disrespect that they're feeling, and it was a bit of a
perfect storm. And then you know I remember, I remember I was in
the shower on the 13th. I think it was february 13. My wife came
in and she said, "Hey, you need to get your phone. It's blowing
up. And immediately, I know exactly what's going on. I mean,
it's because I mean, I knew the vote was going on, and and it
was. I picked up my phone, and I looked down, and it was Coach
Gable saying, "Worst news ever. And then it was like, "Oh my
God! What? And you know, obviously, it was it was a shock
at first.
Yeah.
But you know, we we I'm really proud of the the the response
that our sport had and our organization had is
great,
right? We early on, you know, there was this push to be
wrestlers, like, hey, we're gonna somebody's gonna pay for
this, like we're gonna sue somebody, we're gonna, you know,
we're gonna hold somebody accountable for this. It's the
dumbest decision ever, which right it wasn't the dumbest. But
you know we're dealing with royalty and aristocracy within
the IOC. That right they don't they don't that that that's not
how they operate. And you know we were able to convince the
broader sport that hey let's use this as an opportunity and let's
make them look good. And I remember having those
conversations early on with a lot of people who are like
making these jack legs look good. What? Why? And you know,
but I'm telling you, that was foundational to us getting back
in because we knew that if if we were kicked out, they were they
were going to be embarrassed by the by the decision and and have
a hard time really justifying. So, we we we said to them
basically, thank you for giving us the opportunity, but we had
one vote to get first, and that was you know ultimately that the
the process didn't contemplate one of the the one that was
kicked out to be able to compete, and so we had a lawyer
from at the time Fila that found in the in the Olympic Charter
language that said only the session can determine the
program, meaning the entire 100 member IOC session they call it
the general session can determine the program. We said,
look, you're determining the program. You're kicking us off
the program and by seven people, we you have to at least let us
compete with all the other sports that are trying to get
that 28 spot. And when we, to tell you truth, when we got that
vote in Saint Petersburg,
yeah,
that later you know that summer, it we were we had
it because
you know we were we we took a genuine approach that we had to
change ourselves. We got new leadership within the
international federation, which that doesn't happen, right? And
then so once we got had a leadership change, and a in a
kind of a commitment by everyone to say, this is this is we have
new life here, and we better not screw this up. So we got to take
a hard look at what we do, how we govern ourselves. That's, I
mean, at the time we were pulling balls out of a bag to
determine who the winners were. The rules were screwed up. The
officiating had no accountability. Athletes weren't
involved in any part of the governance, and all those
changes were made. And you know that's that's that's been that
was the thing that happened that changed the trajectory of our
sport, and you know I think it's you know we owe a lot to a lot
of people that were really instrumental. Nanud Lalavik, who
is the current president of of UWW, was the perfect leader. I
mean he's he's he's raised as a diplomat. His dad was a
diplomat, so he didn't know a lot about wrestling, or didn't
at the time, and you know, but knew how to to work with people.
And then he went on to become an ironically an executive
committee member of the IFC. Really? So we have you know the
president of our international federation sits on the in the
general session now. He's just termed. That's
that's like that's crazy important. Oh yeah, I mean
that's like yeah. I don't think I mean I don't know this
landscape that you're talking about. So this is super
interesting to me, but just having somebody like on that
Olympic board, I mean just oh my back shot a jockey for you.
Oh my gosh, and it's you know that wouldn't have happened.
Yeah, I mean he would
old leadership. That would happen.
Yeah, well, he he he is. In the room, I mean, he's that wouldn't
have happened if he was in the room that day. Yeah, right,
right. And so, I mean, I know it's. I mean, it sounds a little
bit like corruption, but I mean, at the end of the day, I mean,
it's relationships that make a lot of things go around, and and
and access and knowledge and you know because we met with 100% of
the IOC members that in that time frame from when we were
allowed to compete again, and when the vote came in Buenos
Aires later that that year, we met one on one with 100% of the
ILC members, all 100. We met face to face with them, talked
to them about you know the changes that we had made, and
and to a person, they all agree that this is the craziest
decision that that are made. You have my support because
wrestling is one of the oldest sports. I mean, one of the the
the foundational, I guess, messages that we were able to
deliver to the IOC was, and you know, a lot of people don't know
this, that wrestling distributes more medals to more countries
than any sport on the program besides track and field, and
track and field has 90 some opportunities and wrestling. You
know, usually it's 2627, different sports or different
countries win medals, and to win Olympic medal, right? For the
most part, you got to have a program. Yeah, and so you know
that was a selling point with us to the to the IOC, that look, I
mean, yeah, I mean, we're we have a. It's funny we say, hey,
we're just because we're old doesn't mean we're
old-fashioned. But you know, the I think the the number one
selling point for the majority of the IOC members was how
global our sport was participated at a really high
level, and so like that that medal distribution is really
really important, and and so like I said, we we met with 100%
of those people, and you know I I don't remember one meeting
where there was pushback from anybody thinking ah good luck I
hope you beat softball baseball or ended up being softball
baseball and squash where we were ultimately on that final
ballot with, but you know the sport. We weren't trying to sell
stuff to people. We weren't trying to sell them something
that wasn't true. It was easy to make an argument. I mean, like
you do it all the time, right? On the values of wrestling, and
you know when you're talking to, for the most part, people that
have some pretty significant historical knowledge of the
Olympic movement worldwide in the in the role. I mean, we're
in the I mean we're in the original program,
exactly,
and so and right. There's other selling points for our sport in
that in that environment where it's you know it's not an
expensive sport to participate in. And Henry Cejudo told me one
time that hey, the coolest thing about wrestling is all you need
is to win Olympic gold medal. All you need is a pair of shoes
and a dream. Yep, and it's true. I mean, there's there's a lot of
truth to that because you know, and I think it's just it's cool
to see our sport thrive, and you know, it's it's a it's a sport
for many many generations to come.
Yeah, as scary as a time as that was, just looking back at it,
and like you had already alluded to, it really, I think gave
wrestling a wake up call in general. Like you were just, I
mean, we had we were pulling balls out of the bag to
determine winners, and just the way that's what I love where our
sports. I love the rule. I like everything about it right now. I
think everything's really really good. It's very starting to get
more fan friendly. That outside of the wrestling, it's
everything's just good. I think yeah. Well, I mean, I think
there's a level of accountability now, and it's you
know talking about this tournament here. I mean, one of
the the biggest changes that were made to this tournament. I
I used to be just amazed. I go home on, you know, after this
tournament and and tell my wife, man, I don't know why these
referees do this. Like, there's you know, 300 referees here that
a lot of them are taking their whole year's vacation to to come
to Fargo and get yelled at by coaches, and and that changed
like overnight from when we started the reviews because
there was a a layer of accountability. There's a
culture now that's different, and I and I'm sure there's going
to be people listening to this saying, "Rich, you're crazy.
They're still these refs are cheating us, and and you know
there there's certainly, I mean there's always possibilities of
of that, but for the most part, when calls don't go our way and
they're then they're wrong, it's an error, not hey there's
cheating going on like there used to be, right? It used to be
kind of a badge of courage to put the screws to somebody
because they were from a different country or whatever,
and but there's a layer of accountability now in our sport,
with with the reviews and and the culture around. Hey, it's
not cool to to cheat somebody. I mean, that wasn't long ago that
it was cool to cheat somebody. And so, right, and the sport's
hard enough as it is to to not have to deal with like
corruption at a at a at a you know situation. What's the
worst? And I mean, I don't know. Not sure how deep you could get
into it, but what's the the most like furious you've been? Yeah,
over over a situation. I don't know about if if I would
say furious. I said I've said this publicly a couple times in
terms of my. There's
been a lot of my psychol. Which one? Yeah, right. Which one?
Which one? And it's,
but I think my mine has been Kerry McCoy's semifinal match in
Tehran in '97. He's he is wrestling the Cuban in a match,
and at the time Bruce Baumgartner or Bruce Burnett was
our coach, and and they had game planned against a guy that, by
no account, Carey should probably beat. I mean, just the
guy is really good. And Lexi Rodriguez, Lexi, yeah, I think
anyway. So Carrie's in the semifinals, and you know
wrestles the match that he has to wrestle, gets him exhausted,
laces him to win. We go crazy. We're running out of the venue
because it was the last match, and you know that that was an
amazing World Championships. I mean, there, I mean, there's no
fire marshals in Tehran, and I mean, there couldn't possibly be
any more people in the arena, and it was just electric. And
Kerry wins this match, which you know we know who he's wrestling,
and you know he's he's he's a world champion. And I remember
running up the stairs, and the the wife of the pro, the only
female in the building, was was the wife of the the
international federation president, Fila president
Madeline Martinetti, and and she grabbed me by the arm and she
said, "Rich, wait. There's a protest. And her husband was,
you know, in charge. He wasn't the president of. He was at the
time. He was not the president. He was in charge of the
referees. He went on to be the president. But so I turn and run
back down. I remember John Smith was was our was was one of our
coaches. Bruce Burnett was the coach, and you know we have the
time we called them volunteer coaches, and John John was one
of the coaches, and he had went down. So I'd ran back down and
and asked this guy Mario Seletnik, who was an exec with
one of the executive board of the UWW or Fila at the time, and
I says Mario's there is there some a problem with the with the
last match? He goes, Yeah, there's a protest. Like like how
is there a protest? And because there's I mean you you can go
watch the match, and and there was some interaction with our
then International Federation rep Larry Shakatano and and
these officials that were because the process was they
would take some of the executive bureau members that were in
attendance and they go in a room and they'd rewatch the match and
rescore a match if there's a protest and so I mean no
disrespect to those people. Most of them didn't know the rules
anyway. So, the the people that were that had the kind of the
rub with Larry Shakatano, Larry Shakatano had said to one of
them, "Hey, I don't want you to go in the protests because
obviously Larry wasn't eligible to be in the protest because he
was a he's a U.S. guy and it was so there couldn't be a Cuban or
a U.S. guy in there, and and he grabbed the guy by the arm and
said, "Hey, you know, I'd rather you not go in this protest.
Well, this guy like goes ballistic, like felt like he was
questioning his integrity or whatever, and so the the protest
goes, and they rescore the match and said that Carey, when he had
Lexi up when he kicked through for the lace. He landed flat on
his back, and it was auto tush. So the match ended there, and it
was you know one of the greatest travesties that I've seen. I I
mean I I mean it still bothers me to this day, and I not near
as much as it bothers Gary probably, but you know I mean
there that's in my mind. That was a world champ right there,
and so there's, you know, those things. Now it's it's settled on
the mat, and and you know there aren't there aren't protests or
protests or opportunity. Yeah, there can be bias on, you know,
looking at reviews, etc. But you know the days of stuff like that
happening, thank God, are over.
And you know, so I mean, I I was able when I was serving as I
served as competition manager for for the games in '96, and
you know, been involved in you know the International
Federation for a long time, ran a lot of events for us, World
Championships and World Cups and you know Pan American
Championships, so I I was able as the as the events guy to sit
in a lot of those because a lot of times I was the guy running
the the you know he put the camera in or the big old tape in
and then rewind it and it you know was really clunky because
you had like one of the guys who was a referee on the bureau
would stand up and everybody get a score sheet, and then they'd
start the video, and he'd say one red, and so obviously when
he's all done, okay, I got nine eight. What do what do you? And
there was anybody saying, "Well, I got you know I got 10 eight,
you know. So it was, it was really, and and you know I
probably talk a little bit out of both sides of my mouth when I
say this. At the time, I don't think the guy was necessarily
that was running referees was was cheating as much as he has
was really arrogant about he was smarter than everybody. Like,
hey, I know what needs to happen, and he didn't all the
time. So I mean, there was some probably dark days that you
could talk about our sport, and I think in 2013 that all
changed. And you know, we just have to remain vigilant because
you know we're starting to get you know further and further
from 2013, and memories aren't quite as vivid and sharp. Yeah,
that's true. You know, you know 2014, 15. I mean, everybody knew
that. Hey, we can't be jacking around, right? We can't be
cheating athletes or you know being you know non transparent
with stuff. Or we could be right back to where we were.
Yeah.
And so we have to stay vigilant to ensure that our sport is, you
know, I mean, integrity and transparency are, I mean, you
don't have a chance. I mean, you can look at some other sports
and see where, you know, that's been a part of the thing. And I,
you know, I think, you know, integrity is a foundational
piece of wrestling. And I know it sounds a little bit weird to
say that, but I think about other challenges that we've had
as a sport. I mean, no bigger challenge since 2013
than COVID. And you think
about you know wrestling and social distancing the antithesis
of one another, right? And like we should have no no chance,
right? There should be no chance that that wrestling can survive
this environment, and I think because of that idea of
integrity, and I mean, we shake hands before we start and after
we finish, and you know we do skin checks, and it's not cool
in wrestling to to I mean it happens to hide ringworm, right?
It's and you know we do we do med checks, and so I think in
COVID, that you know kind of foundational integrity of our
sport saved us because when athletes were sick, they weren't
wrestling. Right. Right. And and you know I think back um in that
time when we we did an event in in Utah because there were only
a few states that were allowing you know any kind of athletic
competition and you know we were blessed to have some really
smart people helping us with our COVID committee. And as we
started to break down tournaments, thought you know
basketball is way more dangerous than wrestling when it comes to
personal contact in a game. I mean, you go to a wrestling
match, you're wrestling one person,
yeah,
right. If you're going to a tournament, maybe you're
wrestling you know four or five different people, and certainly
if you have COVID, you want to wrestle somebody with COVID. But
we're able to break it down to say, look, if we can just
isolate the couple of foundational things that, hey,
we got to make sure people aren't wrestling if they have
COVID. You know, and obviously it's a little tricky sometimes
because we had to do testing that we, you know, was
expensive. But but we knew that if, you know, if if we could
just isolate it to you know one-on-one interaction, you
know, keep coaches and fans, that we could probably
participate in the sport, and and we proved that early on. A
big tournament in Utah, we did testing before and after, and it
wasn't a super spreader.
Yeah,
and and so I mean, we-I don't think took the step back that a
lot of sports did. Funny story: I had a friend of mine that was
running USA weightlifting at the time, and he called me, and we
had just-I mean, we'd been running tournaments. Probably,
you know, we we were running big tournaments, and and that was
there's still a lot of shutdown in a lot of different states.
You remember there were certain states that you could you could
do stuff, and then certain states you couldn't. And he
called me and he said, "Rich, I know wrestling. Certainly, you
guys can't do anything, but we're thinking about doing a
virtual weightlifting event, like virtual. Like we have
people in their, in their home, you know, lifting weights, and
then they'll be competing. And you know, let's, you know, you
have any thoughts on that? I said, Phil, I mean, we're
running wrestling tours right now. Like, we just had 2000 kids
in Utah. Like, what? And so I tell you that because I think
it's back to this kind of foundational benefit and culture
within wrestling of, of you know this, you know, strong
commitment to integrity, to you know what the values are that
the sport instills in us, and I think it's it's saved our sport,
and and it's helped us get in a position where our sport, you
know, is is thriving. Is there opportunity, as Bruce Baumgart
says, to get better every day? Yeah, for sure. I mean, and I
think it's man, just it's awesome to be around this sport,
and you know, I think all of those that all all of us that
that have had the opportunity to be involved are are blessed by
it.
Absolutely, you just mentioned Bruce and mentioned Carrie. I
mean, you've been around. I mean, you probably been around
more legends and more the sport. I mean, just can you know John
Smith
and I were born exactly the same day. Really? Yeah, we're both
august 9, 19. 65.
Who's who's um,
he's aged a lot. Who's
your who's your the most unforgettable, charismatic, just
if if you were thinking just guy that makes you laugh in USA
Wrestling. I mean, a competitor. I'm curious about that. Yeah,
would that be? Just comes to mind. I
mean, I I mean, I'm sure a lot of people say Roy Selberg. No.
Yeah, and you know it's it's it's it's it's fun because you
know there I have some stories about John, and you know John's
a really a dear friend, and and John was awesome, yeah, and you
know there's a lot of a lot of characters in our sport that
that make you laugh, and you know it's it's interesting
because I think there's there's times. I mean, like a guy like
Terry Steiner has like, and you know this of being around him,
like a sense of humor that you don't you don't expect. Never.
And you know, Cody Bickley and I always joke, and you know, I
call him Misha sometimes, and like, why are you calling me
Misha? And I said, well, because Steiner, you have no idea what's
going on most of the time, just show up and kick people's butts,
you know. And with our women's program, because we joke because
obviously, it's it's a challenge to you know manage that you know
such a diverse team, and and you know these as I said earlier,
these coaches have to understand the nuance of what their roles
are. So at times, it appears like, yeah, what do you mean you
don't know where Helen Rolls is? And and so it's you know, but
yeah, there's your question about you know characters.
There's there's a lot of them. Royce Elger's you know as good a
one-liner guy as there is, and you know, but and also a dear
friend, and you know we've had a lot of a lot of characters.
Obviously, I I think about Dave Schultz and and being around
Dave a lot, I'll tell you the the last thing Dave Schultz said
to me was at the so it would have been in in the fall of '95.
We were at the Sunkist Open, and Dave Dave wasn't wrestling; he
was he was coaching. And I came in the I was our events director
at the time, and came into the the arena, and he was standing
over on the side, eating a lemon like like an orange, you know,
like peeling and eating a lemon like an orange. And I went over
to him and go, Schulte, what are you doing? He put his arm around
me. He said, Richie boy, when life gives you a lemon, you eat
it. And that was the last thing. That was the last thing Dave
said to me. And you know obviously we lost him then the
next year earlier a couple months later but you know guys
like that are you know I don't remember Dave's I mean he's
obviously a big sense of humor and you know but you know just I
mean just a I mean I think a lot about you know what the sport
lost that day when we lost Dave and you know the impact he could
have had, and you know so you know a lot of a lot of fun times
and a lot of really tough times.
Was it was a what's a fun chaotic overseas experience that
you went through? I mean, you've been over so many, you've been
to so many of them. I mean, my goodness.
Well, I mean, there's. I mean, when you travel, I mean,
certainly, you know, times have especially the places that
wrestling seems to. Yeah, well, the state-it's funny. The State
Department says to us all the time that, hey, you know, we've
come to believe that wrestling's popular wherever the U.S. isn't,
and there's some truth to that, by the way. But I mean, and and
times have changed, and and it's you know, technology and
efficiency of travels different than back in the day, where you
know you'd show up somewhere and pray somebody's there to pick
you up, and you know a team would sit around you know at the
airport for half a day you know trying to figure out who's
supposed to pick us up, and you know a lot of those stories of
you know pretty Spartan accommodations traveling, and
you know, just just you know, people happen to to be
resourceful to figure out you know how to how to get in
places. But I mean, I think I think about you know like
memorable things, and obviously I was blessed to be there when
Rulon beat Carlton. And if you remember that game, I mean, I
was there. We you were yeah I was in yeah I mean if you and
you remember this right I mean we we we took out the Russians
on that in that games right Brandon beat Satya in Launy beat
Goguish Li and Rulan you know beat the King and that that day
by the way our international federation had a had a reception
the day of the final and I was invited to it, and I went to it.
That they were celebrating Corellin's fourth Olympic gold
medal. That the International Federation had a had a had a
reception. And I remember telling Raffy Martinetti, who
was the guy was telling me about who his wife grabbed me, who
went on to be the president of UWW, who was actually the guy in
charge when we we got kicked out. I remember saying to him
and say, you know, I, I'm not saying that that that Rulan can
can beat him, but I'm telling you, it's possible. I remember
him saying, yeah, whatever, and you know, but in that,
ironically, in that match, if you you remember it, right, the
referee originally calls for the points for.
Oh, the the
referee calls calls for the for the points for Carellan. If you
mean Purdy, the the referee called for the points for
Carellan, and I I was sitting Matt's side. I mean not right
Matt's side, but there was the the the the Matt judge or Matt
Chairman was a guy named Etchin Martinetti, who was the brother
of Raffy Martinetti, who was in charge of refereeing, who later
went on to be the president of it. And I remember there being
this kind of like panic, like I don't know if that's the right
call. And I remember Martinetti like it was yesterday. Raffy
yells, he goes Etchin, and Etchin turned around. He goes,
look at the video. And when he looked at the video the other
side, you clearly saw that Corellin broke first. Yeah, and
so I mean, I think about those kinds of like, because you know
that if they would not have fixed that, it wasn't getting
fixed, no matter how obvious it was later. That there's no way
Ruland Gardner's exactly they're going to go back and say, "Oh
yeah, we messed that up. Yeah,
and so I mean I think about things like that, or
opportunities like that. I think about when when Kyle beat Sad
Juliev in Paris, and I mean I I mean there's just I mean I'm
such a blessed dude that you know been around a lot of those
incredible moments, right? Heartbreaking moments too. I
mean I think about you know times where man, we just like I
mentioned earlier, things like Kerry McCoy's match and or Kerry
Colat's scenario, like any of those those three or four times
where right just doesn't seem right that you know one guy can
carry that kind of bad luck or you know, and it's you know so
it's it's the I guess the beauty of our sport. I mean, there's
just a lot of ups and a lot of downs, and and you know, it's my
wife says this all the time, and and I've been blessed that she
she's since she's retired, she's traveling all over. We decided
our kids' inheritance are going to be invested in plane tickets
for Michelle Bender, but she said, you know, Rich, one thing
I've come to learn that going to these wrestling tournaments is
like going to weddings and funerals, right? You have
weddings and funerals in the same event, and it's there's so
much truth to that, and it's you know just a blessing to be
around the sport, and I mean just the impact that it's had on
on my life and the life of literally millions of people. I
say this all the time that anybody that's wrestled is
better for it. Period. Never been an exception. Not one time.
Yeah. And you know, just just just awesome to be involved, and
it's really really cool to see the momentum that our sport has.
And you know, looking into this next couple years with the you
know U 20 threes in the fall in Vegas, and then next year's
World Championships and then the games, man, there's there's a
lot of reasons to be really bullish on our sport right now.
Absolutely, I mean the the the stables are full, if you will,
in terms of you know talent. I mean, look at this tournament
here, and you know you look at our final acts and the age group
success that we've had with with all of our you know teams
recently, and I say our I mean our country's teams and and the
importance that you know kids are putting on those teams
earlier than ever, and I think bodes well for us.
Speaking of fortunate, we're fortunate that of your
leadership, Rich, and having guys like yourself leading the
charge for us, and man, I appreciate your time. Yeah, this
has been amazing. Yeah, I don't know. I
don't know what's going on here, but we yeah we can continue.
We'll figure it out. No, yeah, like so.
Yeah, we're going to continue it. Yeah, we'll put it all in
one big episode. But yeah, we got plenty of plenty of stories.
Yeah,
Mike. I I mean, I'd be remiss if I didn't say thank you to you,
and you talked a little bit about you know stories and not
rich bender stories, but I mean it's really important for us to
have this kind of intentional investment in our history.
Yeah,
and man, it's it's cool to see and man the impact that that
you're having. Like I said, I enjoy watching programs. Thank
you, and the impact that it's having is significant, and
certainly your work in in Tennessee as our state chairman,
and
you know I started like I just can't get anybody to take it
from me. Yeah, you shouldn't have missed that
meeting, but you know it's it's and and and I say this a lot
about you know and say it hopefully say it enough to you
guys as our state leaders, is that's the foundation of our
sport is the infrastructure. I mean that it. I mean that
sport's great and it's you know all by itself, but the
infrastructure that exists and the 1000s of people like Mike
Hatcher that that devote significant amounts of their
time to pay opportunities forward, to entrench the sport,
to raise its relevancy, it makes a difference, and it's it's the
reason our sport's great. And so, thank you for for what you
do. And man, I I mean you
can thank Dan Gable for that because as soon as I got when I
got into coaching, he told me specifically. He said, "Well,
you know, you got to get involved in the USA wrestling
now." I was like, "Well, what do you mean? He goes, "Well, he
just that's just you got to do it. I was like, "I guess I'm
gonna start doing whatever whatever they need. Yeah, I'll
tell you what, I, I, I, I
mean, there's no more more influential people in our sports
history than Coach Gable and and just you know being around him
and you know you're blessed to have been touched by him and
he's the man and yeah he's the man that's that's what.
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All right. Well, we got we got you know slightly interrupted.
Not bad though. Yeah, it's okay. Listen, Fargo. Yeah, you know,
Groundhog Day. That's that's pretty much it. You have a guy
like Rich Bender on here, and you know, it's shoot. You know,
there's the stories. The we we probably talk for shoot 12
hours. I got actually have to coach. I have to be the state
chairman, and I have to wear different hats here, and I can't
just do podcasts all the time. So we piece it out together. I
think we're okay.
Yeah, well, I guess it gives me some purpose to be in Fargo.
There you go. People
ask me, like, what do what do you do in Fargo? I and I said,
well, you know, that's a good question. I I think I walk
around thank people.
There you go. Well, there's plenty of those to thank here
for their brothers here. Yeah, a lot
of people to be thankful for for sure.
Yeah, people are asking me, "Well, you did use a podcast
when you're in Fargo. I'm like, "I'm gonna try, but understand,
I'm still the state chairman. I still have 11 kids here that
wrestling, you know, in my club. I probably need to attend to
them at some point in time. So, you know, between sessions, you
know, I I probably pull some off.
Well, I'll tell you, Mike, that's what makes this
organization so great, you know people like you that are given
so selfishly, selflessly, to to the sport in you know wearing so
many hats here, and you know you put 10, 15,000 people in in
Fargo for eight days. There's a lot of work to be
done. Oh yeah, yeah, no doubt about it, no doubt about it. I
know I know there's just enough. I mean we have I think our
delegation, we're getting better every year. You know, we're
always hovering between the 95 and 105 participant between the
boys and the girls side delegation here in Tennessee. So
it's getting better. Yeah,
it's getting better. I mean, we're we'd love to to bump over
10,000 entries. That that I'd say that's kind of our goal. But
yeah,
you know, obviously the the quality quality wrestling
opportunity is the most important thing, and you know,
giving kids an opportunity to to experience the sport at a at a
unique level, but most importantly, change a lot of
lives this week.
Absolutely, yeah. No, I tell everybody that this is you know
because obviously everybody and parents, you know, coaches,
everybody they play that cost and the ROI factor in in which
events to go to, and all of them look at well, I'm not. We're not
spending that kind of money to go to Fargo, North Dakota, and
the chance of them going zero and two. And I tell them
consistently, you know that. And I've been coaching for 30. I'm
going up 35 years. I think it was my first wrestling club. I I
started running back at Iowa, back in the day, this is this is
the one wrestling event that where I see a significant change
in kids when they go and participate, and this goes for
kids that come here and go four and two, or they they all
American we win it, or even the kids that come here and
literally just they don't even make it out the first period
four matches they go one four and literally wrestle four
periods wrestling, just because of the training and the
preparation that it takes to come here and to get ready to go
at a tournament in mid July, and then just the whole Fargo
experience in general. When they do it, when they do that, and
they complete that process, they come here, they compete, they
get to know kids from the from their state, other states,
possibly from the black market, and they come back literally a
whole different wrestler. Yeah, and this is that. This is the
one. I mean, there's don't get me wrong. There's great events
out there, and there's great tournaments out there. But this
is the one where I see like literally a significant change
in kids when they go through the whole Fargo experience.
I agree totally. You know, I mean, it's in. It's it's really
woven into the culture of certainly USA Wrestling. I mean,
it's been the marquee event for us for, you know, 50 years
probably, or almost 50 years. And yeah, it it for sure changes
lives. And I mean, there's a lot of reasons why. I mean, part of
it is the journey here, and you know, part of it is the the bond
that that these kids develop with their coaches and their and
their teammates, and man, you know just the the the the awe
that you feel when you walk in this building for the first time
and see 30 mats, and and just the spectacle that this event
is, and then you think about how difficult it is to to compete
and. And to, I mean, I think it wasn't long ago there was a
weight class that had 21 undefeated state champs in it,
and you know, so I mean, obviously, it's it's wrestling
at the very highest level in our country at this age group, but
you know, it's a you know accumulation of several things
that that changed his lives, and as I said yesterday, I mean
anybody that's ever participated in wrestling's better for it.
Period. Never been an exception, and I'd say the same thing about
coming to Fargo and competing in junior nationals. And you know,
you I mean, there's all kinds of data around how you know
participation in this event translates into success, you
know, at the international level. But you know, certainly,
you know, at the Division One level, I mean, I think Jason
Bryant does a really good job of tracking that. And I mean, the
percentages of NCAA Division One champs that participate in this
event is very high. Yeah, and so you know there's it's it's you
know it's probably one of our first indicators of of you know
kind of the future is is here and you know but yeah it's it's
it's it's an awesome event. I think about you know the
referees and I think about the coaches that give up a big part
of their summer, and other volunteers that give a big part
of their summer to to to provide this opportunity, and it's you
know it's always the same. You know, people go home and say,
"Man, it was worth
it,
and yeah, it's expensive and something certainly we we we are
aware of. And one of the beauties of our sport is that
you know cost usually doesn't prevent participation, and you
know obviously you know there is a lot of expense associated with
participating in this event, but you know it's there's value
there too.
Oh yeah, no, there is. There's serious value, and and like I
said, I wouldn't be such a strong advocate, obviously, if I
not only amongst the kids in the state of Tennessee, but also
obviously my own my own club, and and you know, I mean, I'm
just I'm proud of our state for the numbers of competitors that
we have consistently every year. I know when I first started
coming out here, probably about 1520 years ago, I mean, from
Tennessee, we literally have maybe 13 to 15 kids, you know,
so it was the number's really low, and now we're hovering
around that that three digit mark, so it's really good. And
we have we had three three in the Greco Finals last night,
which was really quick. We had two champs, champ won the titles
at the same time, which was really cool. Shout out to Chase
Smith and Logan Rasky. Yeah, two really really good kids. They
were side by side in the 16 U and Junior Matt, and then later
on, Maddox High is in the finals against Ivanov's. That's
awesome. Yeah, so and so getting those
kids from Cleveland. Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.
Two of them are from Cleveland. Oh, actually, yeah, yep. Two of
them are Cleveland. Maddox High is from Cleveland, and Gordon
Connell.
Gordon Connell still around Cleveland.
Gordon Connell still in Chattanooga. Yep, he's still
he's still around. Gordon Connell's he's awesome.
Yeah, he's good, good, good man.
Well, we're talking experiences. I mean, obviously the Fargo
experience, but I mean, if there's anyone that's had just
experiences worldwide, it's most certainly our executive
director. As far as just different places that you
travel, different competitions that you've seen, different
crazy things, we are getting into some of them on the ride
over here, but man, man, what what what type of experiences
your your position brings to you is something else, huh?
Yeah, and I said this yesterday that you know we travel.
Obviously, the sport takes us all over the world, and man, I
personally been blessed beyond measure to you know for an
average at best high school wrestler to be able to make a
career and you know life around this sport has been man a
blessing that I don't take for granted but been been able to
travel the world and the State Department says as I said
yesterday that wrestling's popular wherever the U.S. isn't
and you know so I think about those experiences like you know
I've been to Iran four times, and you know, was there for the
the the we were the first sports team to travel in Iran into Iran
from the U.S. after the revolution. That was the Tacti
Cup just before the the World Championships in 97, I believe
that was, and you know, so I was on the team, or I was part of
the delegation going to to the world championships there, and
the thing that struck me about travel to Iran is, I mean,
wrestling is so important to their culture and and so
important to you know their entire country that you know
American wrestlers tend to be heroes there, and and it's I
mean I'll never forget walking into that arena in Tehran, and
it was amazing because I mean you couldn't there was 18 19,000
seats in this arena, and there was it was amazing because you
walk in and you couldn't. Even really get into your seats an
hour before, and the the concourses were full, and yet
the seats were all full. And I'm like, man, where are these
people going to go? And they blew this whistle, and every
aisle filled up. I mean, people just went. So it's just a mass
of humanity. I mean, there's fire marshal would have been
losing their would have lost their mind there, but and it
just I mean the mat was wrapped with you know carpets you know
like actual you know Persian carpets and I mean it was a
spectacle and but and it was you know I said, talked. We talked a
little bit about a World Cup that we did in Kermanshaw, but I
mean, they were supportive of our team.
Yeah,
and I think it it speaks to you know the the the strength of
wrestling to be kind of this ambassador for humanity. And I
know that sounds a little cliche,
yeah,
but it's true. And I've seen it in Russia. I've seen it in Iran.
I've seen it in Turkey, and I mean, where the sport has a
unique way of bringing people to get people together. I mean,
obviously, with Iran, we couldn't be any further apart
from our political views in terms of certainly our
governments, like we're at war with them now. But you know, we
have a strong relationship with the Iranian Wrestling
Federation. I mean, it's it's you know they were in in Iowa
not long ago, and you know we're working hard for them to come to
the U 20 3s. I think I think we're going to get that done,
and certainly the World Championships and and in the
Olympic Games. But I mean, Iran needs to be in the World
Championships, right? I mean, there there there there are you
know one of our fiercest competitors, and and you know
wrestling in their country is so important. So, yeah, traveling
to places like that and and seeing how the sport breaks
down, you know those barriers, and I mean I remember the first
time was really nervous about man, this is going to be this is
going to be okay, and it was. I mean, never once have I been
there and not felt comfortable or felt threatened, and you
know, just if anything, I was hanging around Jordan Burrows
over there. It's like hanging around, you know, I don't know,
Babe Ruth or somebody or baseball fans, and just I mean,
they just mob them. But
it was funny because when when Metcalf, when I had him on my
podcast, he was talking about them. I can see that the first
time, or he was trying. He was over there with Jordan, and he's
he said this Iranian fan just went up and was just crazy. He's
like, oh, and he he he wanted Jordan's Gatorade bottle or his
Gatorade chicken, and so Jordan gave it to him, and the guy
grabbed it and started dumping it all over himself. And they
were just chanting the whole time for him. It's just like
he's like Michael Jordan over there.
Yeah, I mean it's and and and they take our our participation
seriously there. I mean they they've always been you know
great security details around us, and you know not to to
necessarily keep us safe from someone trying to do harm, but
just being mobbed. And but yeah, I mean it's it's there's been
some some great experiences like that. And
you were talking about that World Cup and about about the
arena filling up. That was pretty wild. Yeah,
yeah. So we were in Kermanshaw for the the World Cup and we
were loaded we had a we had a great team and and it was you
know most people thought it was going to come down to Iran and
Russia or Iran and and the U S for the for the finals and and
it did but prior to that I mean it was home ice for us every
match with Georgia and Russia. I mean, the Iranians were cheering
really, really, really strongly for for the U.S. In fact, I
remember our very first match; they had to stop the
introduction because they were you know we're doing face-offs
and and they had to stop the introduction because the entire
arena was just going crazy, yelling Jordan, Jordan, Jordan,
and then you know the fun thing about that that World Cup was we
got to the final, we got to the final with with Iran and and had
a slow start. First, we lost the first four, and thought, man,
this match is going to get away from us. And then you know the
cavalry came, and I mean, I mean David Taylor, you know,
absolutely broke Yasdani, and that was incredible. And you
know they carried him off as if I mean he he thought he was
dying. I think he felt his lungs at a different level than he's
ever felt, and probably hasn't felt since. But then it came,
you know, Kyle won, and then it came down to the heavyweight
match. You know, if we won, if I mean, we if we would win the
match, it would have been five five. But because David pinned
Yazdan. We were gonna we were gonna win.
Yeah,
and he came up a little short, but it was man such a such a
great experience. Was that was
that probably like like a craziest wrestling environment
you've ever been in?
Well, I mean those environments in Iran, yeah, the the four
times probably as crazy as of environment that I've ever
experienced. But man, when when Kyle beat Sagilayev in Paris,
that was pretty cool.
Yeah,
and I mean, there's been a lot of times that you know Olympic
Games when you know Roulan beat Corellin, and I mean some pretty
electric venues. But yeah, I mean it's it's a it's a
different environment when it's USA. I was blessed this this
spring to go to the Winter Olympics for the first time, and
I serve on the board of the U.S. Olympic Committee, and and our
board was was brought to the to the Olympic Games in Milan, and
the first Winter Games I've ever been to, and got to experience
the gold medal game with with Canada, and it was it was
electric too, but different. I mean, it's just different from
from. I mean, obviously, you know that. I mean, it was a
storybook with with with Kyle and Sagilayev in Paris, right?
It came down to last mansion, and you know to beat Russia and
and to win was, was absolutely, you know, electric, and to be
around Kyle's dad and John Bartis and and others, and just,
you know, totally, like, losing it really. And I I remember that
that big celebration, and and I, I I mean I'm jumping on
everybody and and I start crying, and and I'm I kind of
realize that I'm like on somebody's chest, and they're
patting my head, and I'm I'm bawling like a baby when Kyle
won, and I look up, and it's the president of the international
wrestling, Nanad Lalik, just patting me on the head like a
you know little little kid, but it was man, it's it was it was
emotional and and cool and just happy for for everyone,
including you know like our state chapters and those people
that invest in in the organization because that's
that's their team and you know obviously it's it's awesome to
see athletes win and and achieve crazy things like that, but
yeah, the support is awesome.
Yeah, what's a what's a crazy like overseas story that might
have been? I don't know some crazy travel or some crazy just
just it was just a bizarre turn of events.
Well, we we went to this would have been in 1997 or no no 90
yeah 97 I said 97 was was in Tehran so it would have been man
I'm I'm I'm missing the year Lescuche's one in 97 I believe
so I might have my years mixed up a little bit there, but yeah,
he
was 97. Yeah, yeah. So so we
were so we're going to Krasnyarsk for the World
Championships, and when you go to back in the day when you were
when you went anywhere in Russia, you would fly into the
to the major air or their you know their international
airport, and then you'd have to like spend a day in Moscow, and
then fly out like at two in the morning to you know at another
airport to wherever you're going. In this case, we're going
to to Krasnya, Krasair, and you get to the airport, and it's you
know midnight. Your flight's at two, and the airport is packed,
like packed, packed. And you know I am in Russia. Like lines
don't mean the same thing as lines do in the United States.
So people just and you know so you you go through this
gauntlet, and you know it's it's an hour to get your ticket, get
your bag checked, knowing that there's probably little or no
chance I'm ever seeing my bag again, because this place is
total chaos. And you get to the very last part of the of this
journey to get on your plane, and there's a magnetometer, and
I'm thinking they're putting people through this
magnetometer. Like people are getting on with huge like
backpacks with chickens, and I mean it's crazy. And they're you
know walking through the magnetometer, and they're just
you know people just walking, and you walk out on the tarmac
to To go in the back belly of this big old plane, and and so
I'm I'm there, and all I have is my briefcase because all my bags
checked, and they send me through the mag timer, and it
goes off. Like oh, they stop, and they made me stop, and and I
had to go sit like in this chair by the, and I'm watching. These
Russians are going through this thing. Like, I mean, they're
carrying rifles and stuff, right? I mean, yet I got a like
a briefcase with me, and they're making me sit in the chair.
Well, right, it was a it was a deal. They said you have to go
back out and pay for your bag, and I said I'm not going back
out to pay for my bag. You have my bag. Yeah, like I'm not.
There's no way because I'm missing this flight, and and so
I look, and here comes Jim Shear, who is the CEO at the
time, and you know Jim Jim jokes about this every now and then
when we talk about it. But he comes, and I'm I'm sitting there
watching him, and he's got the same briefcase I have, right?
And he comes, they make him, they they they tell them to go
stand over by me, and I get up and I said, "Oh, can I go? Go,
and they so they let me go, and so Jim's there, and I run out
and you know get on the plane and and thinking, man, I'm
probably getting fired now because I mean, there's this
unwritten rule when you're overseas, it's every man for
himself. So, but you know, we're getting ready to to to close up,
and I see Jim running out across the tarmac. So, he got through.
He had to. He actually went back out and paid him like 50 bucks
for his bag. Really, but I mean, there's. I mean, that's not
really a wrestling story, but it's you know, that's the kind
of experiences and travel that I mean, our athletes deal with
that kind of stuff still. You know, it's better now, but you
know, back in the day, you can talk to guys like Royce Elder,
and he'll tell you, you know, some really crazy stories, and
and you know, maybe one of the best storytellers we've got
around. So, oh, he's
yeah, he's the first one. Yeah, I told you yes. I like to tease
him. You know,
Royce has been one of my good buddies since I started USA
Wrestling, and yeah, we were running back in the day dual
meets. You know, we'd have we'd host the World Cup, and then
we'd host dual meets with with all the teams. And Royce was my
number one guy to wrestle. I mean, he would say yes to every
dual meet, any place, any time. So we got really close because I
knew I could always call on him, and obviously, really, really
good wrestler, and and you know one of the best. And one one day
we were we were joking around, or you know
he's
cracking on everybody, and and I put my arm around. I go, Royce,
you know, I've known you for a long time, and I just realized
that that we do have something in common, and he kind of looked
at me and goes, "What, what do what do we got in common?
Because he always thinks it's about being a farm kid. I'm from
a small farming community, and I said, "What do you what do you
mean? What do we got in common? I said, "I just realized that
you and I have won exactly the same number of world titles. So
yo, he'll be po'd when he hears me say that because it's the one
thing I think that I can get him on because usually it's the
other way, right? He's
quick witted. You don't want to battle with that.
But you know, it's guys like Royce Elder make our sport fun,
and you know, it's great to have him still engaged and around.
And you know, I think you know, part of our culture that's
really important. Is athletes like that giving back, and you
know you can walk out here in the arena and see, you know,
world team members, Olympians, and you know those that have you
know been blessed by the sport themselves give back. I mean
yourself included, and you know that's that's a you know I don't
know that we can say that we're the only sport that does that
because I think that you know probably that exists in some
other sports, but man, wrestling-it's certainly a
foundational strength of ours.
That's that's really cool. Yeah, no, I agree. I agree. But moving
forward, I mean, you've been at you've been at it for a while.
Obviously, USA Wrestling has-I mean, really-I mean, just man,
it just keeps climbing. It keeps climbing. Product keeps getting
better. I mean, everything. The organization keeps getting
stronger. You guys are growing. Obviously, we're opening up in a
brand new office here when we go out for the state leaders
convention next month, and look forward to seeing that. That's
really cool. What's the vision moving forward? What's the
what's the plans for USA Wrestling?
Well, I mean, obviously, we have a lot of events on our on
horizon for us that that that we're fixing to capitalize on,
whether that's the U 20 threes this later this year or the
Senior Worlds next year, and obviously the games in LA. But I
mean, talking about the success and you know the role that our
that our sport is on, and in particular USA Wrestling, it's
not it's not complicated. It's not it's not hard to understand
why. And the reason that USA Wrestling has had the success
it's had is because of its people and because of its
infrastructure. It's not-I mean-in our sport is at the
foundation of that, but man, wrestling is blessed, and USA
Wrestling is especially blessed with leadership that care deeply
about the sport in in really every corner of our country,
right? We have 50 state chapters that work tirelessly to provide
quality wrestling opportunities for America's youth, and that's
that's that's a winning a winning idea. In terms of you
know having success, and the organizations build on four core
business objectives: building the brand, growing the base,
networking in the community, and winning with our teams. That's
you know we joke at the office sometimes about hey if you're
doing something that's not contributing to one of those
four things, stop doing
it.
And you know that's you know it's been I mean that's not
something Rich Bender came up with it's a you know it's been a
foundational principle of of USA Wrestling for as long as I've
been around almost 40 years and it's and it's worked and you
know but at the core are the people in our sport and you know
the sport I mean we can talk for three days about the benefits of
that wrestling has on on individuals and society, but
yeah, I mean, USA Wrestling. You know, our vision is to to
continue to grow and and prosper and provide opportunities for
kids to experience the support for generations to come.
Obviously, we're we're one of 52 national governing bodies for
the United States Olympic and Paralympic Committee and the
governing body comes with responsibilities, right?
Providing safe environments, you know, providing quality
experiences, whether that's through great, you know,
coaching education programs, so so that the experiences are good
for not just the athletes but the parents and and those that
touch the sport, and you know we we we are investing in
refereeing, understanding that that's a pretty foundational
piece of our sport to grow. In fact, was able to chat with our
with our referees that are here at their their annual meeting a
couple days ago, and you know three 400 referees, a lot of
whom take their entire year's vacation to come here and and
officiate care deeply about the sport and many of those were
wrestlers and and or parents of wrestlers that understand the
the you know the impact that the sports had. So, I mean, yeah,
USA Wrestling is we have some ambitious goals. I mean, we want
to want to win every single gold medal, every single world
championship. We want to we want to grow this membership to you
know a million members. We want to we want to continue to
provide opportunities for people to to use wrestling as a as a
foundational business opportunity for them to to to
build and prosper programs and clubs, so I mean, there's a lot
there, but you know, it's it still comes back to the
foundation of an infrastructure, the right people, and in a sport
that we know is right.
Yeah, I actually had this. It's interesting because I I had this
I guess discussion at our team, our parent and athlete meeting
last night, and then also on the boys' side, you know, because I
think a lot of people, and obviously what I do at my state
level is nothing like you. You have to manage at your at your
level as far as like a director type, executive director type of
deal. But I just I told them we're we're never going to be
the most popular, you know. We don't. I mean, the pats on the
back and the thank yous. I mean, that we can probably do without
that. We the complaining is what we you know get defensive about,
and I get defensive about obviously because I'm in you
know I'm in charge of a board of directors that's totally
volunteer. I'm volunteer, and it's like listen, we're
volunteers here, but at the end of the day, like you know,
whether you like our decisions as board board members or not,
everything is directed to the betterment of the kids.
Everything everything goes towards the kids. Everything
everything with the with the kids' best interest in mind. But
you but you mentioned the infrastructure part of it, and
that's one of the things that I had to kind of. I mean, I've
been our state chair for I don't know I don't even know I lost
count. 15 years, whatever. But that's the thing I didn't
understand from the get go, from the beginning. You know, maybe
even my first 10 year before I came back, and then I came back.
You know, and it took over again in Tennessee. I think in my year
five or four or five year. And but we already we had some board
members in place that were a little bit better on the
infrastructure side. Our treasurer Josh Durgil, credible,
got in a in a good financial position. My my vice chair Derek
Harrison. They're all very very organized and business minded
and kind of developing infrastructure. Our national
teams leaders Mackenzie Fowler and Jarvis Little. They they're
so good at that stuff. And me, I that's not my strong suit, you
know. So that's the big important piece. So it's a it's
really interesting that you you know you mentioned the
infrastructure part of it because that's-it's not all just
about just wrestling and whistles and takedowns and
everything else. It's you got to have you got to run it like a
business.
Yeah, and and and that doesn't come without challenges. Yeah,
right. I mean, and you know, we
especially you're in a very unpopular position. Yeah, I get
it. Yeah, I get it. You know, it's it's
it's interesting to to be able to serve on the the U.S. Olympic
and Paralympic Committee board, and you know, been the chair of
the National Governing Body Council, which is the council of
all the NGBs that make up the U.S. Olympic and Paralympic
Committee. And I mean, those sports and those organizations
that struggle with infrastructure and governance. I
mean, I say this all the time. Bad. Governance is the cancer of
the Olympic movement, and I think that's true within our
state chapters too. Like, yeah, we don't always get it right.
No, I mean, at the end of the day, for sure. But I mean, if
you have the right people, usually you get to the right the
right place. And you know, with kids, you know, at the center,
it's you know, it's it's what I mean, we're an athlete-driven
organization at the very highest level, right? We we we care
deeply about not just winning World Olympic gold medals, but
athletes and and you know it's that infrastructure that
provides those opportunities and attracts the people like
yourself to to be a part of something is pretty cool, but
it's it also important. It's important to recognize that
that's why that without that infrastructure, I mean, if you
have you know bad governance structures and and you know then
right you're you're distracted and you're not able to provide
those quality wrestling opportunities for for kids to to
participate in you know, but it's funny because at USA
Wrestling, I think a lot of people think that hey, it's all
about the Olympic team. That that's that's and certainly
that's wickedly important to us. And you know, as the national
governing body, we're we have the the responsibility to
identify and to you know, assist with the training and the
preparation of of our teams to participate, but it's not all
about elite athletes. I mean, a lot of what we do is about elite
athletes, and I'm sure I'm going to get some grief about saying
that on the on a podcast. But Marina and I say this all the
time: it's it's our membership that is the straw that stirs the
drink for us, and it's you know not only is that the you know
the biggest revenue driver of for USA Wrestling that that
funds a lot of our programs, but it's at the core of what who we
are, right? It's yeah, Kyle Schneider and Kyle Dake and you
know Kennedy Blades, and you know, you you know, name our
elite. You you can name our elite athletes, and that's yeah,
they're they're the face of the organization a lot of ways. But
man, I I'd say that you know, bulk of what we focus on is are
those kids that will never make a world team, right? Or but will
you know, have their life changed by our sport, and you
know whether they give back to USA Wrestling specifically or
even the sport, it's just I mean I I think it's cool to be around
so many people that are driven by the idea that it's just about
providing the opportunity and providing a quality opportunity,
and so yeah, it sounds a little cliche at times to to talk about
it that way, but I think our sport's different than other
sports because of the infrastructure, because of the
people, and because of the foundation of what the sport is.
And I said this yesterday that you know Henry Cejudo said,
"Hey, to be successful in wrestling, all you need is a
pair of shoes and a dream. And right, he achieves at the very
highest level, but yeah, it's infrastructure and and like I
said, it's building the brand. Sure, it's growing the base
sure, it's networking the community sure, it's winning.
Sure, but you know ultimately it's a it's more of a holistic
approach that gives the opportunity for the organization
to be successful.
Yeah, yeah, no, I can, I can definitely relate. I know, I
every year when Fargo comes around, you know, I, you know,
it's, it's probably very similar, obviously in your
position, but at much, much, you know, bigger scale. But
everything gets funneled through me, and everything gets funneled
through you because I mean, because you're the exact, you
should know, you're in charge of everything. You, you get all the
votes on the board, so I go round and round, back and forth
with even some of my board members because they don't see
quite because I don't have kids, you know. So I'm 53 years old,
single with no kids, so I'm kind of like Switzerland, you know. I
I look at it from a lot different words. A lot of our
our members are our parents, and they look at it, you know, from
a little bit different way, which is good. I mean, it's good
to have a little mix, but we have board members, we have we
have coaches, we have people that don't. Again, we get back
the Fargo thing. Don't see the value in this here, you know,
because wow, you know, it's a it's a tough tournament in the
world. We should really only just send our best kids. And I'm
like, no, that's not it's not what we're here for, you know.
It's a deal where we have to because we do things a little
bit different as a state as far as how we travel here. We allow
our you know our club kids, our club coaches to come. We they
can pick their travel people is what they can, and so we don't
we don't elect our our coaching staff as a board. So you know
that's that's strictly for the kids' benefit. You know we want
them to have their coaches in there, and and but then we also
have some kids that maybe don't have the coaching back home, or
they just you know the ones that don't have quite the experience
here. That stuff's very very important for them too to be
able to interact with our state's best. And I think that
like I said, when when you guys put so much you know emphasis on
the Olympic you know an Olympic team and and doing well at the
Olympic, that stuff all bleeds down. Because that gives gives
kids you know things to look up to and things to dream and
strive for and to set goals for. Same thing in our state and at a
smaller level. If we're you know putting in a lot of effort and a
lot of time and a lot of resource into our national
teams, well, I would think that the rest of the state would want
to follow suit and try to make those. And same time, but at the
same time, we have to include those because they make up the
both membership, so it's super important to get those kids
here. Not not the term saying you know what, you're not really
ready for Fargo. Don't come. No, you need to come, and you need
to get around these these type of individuals that are the best
in in our state. What we have to offer.
Yeah, I mean, and that's so true. And I probably was remiss
in not making a bigger deal about you know our recent
success of it being you know a direct result of of leadership,
not me, but leadership from our board. Bruce Baumgartner is is
the best. I mean he's he is, I mean has integrity beyond
measure, respected in not just the wrestling world but the
entire Olympic world, and and you know challenges us daily,
and and he if you talk to Bruce for 10 minutes about you know
what is you know I talked to him for a long time what afternoon
yes they're asking I promise you he's going to tell you that we
just try to get better every day just a little bit better every
day and he he challenges you know our staff and me, but man,
he is-he is-he's such a selfless guy that he cares so deeply
about about the sport and the organization. That I mean,
he-he's-he's the reason that that or a big part of why we
have the success we have. And he's a volunteer. I mean, the
amount of investment time and he invests in our sport is is
crazy, and now you know he serves on the UWW Executive
Board, and the travel, and the and the expectation for for that
is is pretty incredible. But yeah, I mean it's I mean there's
a lot of different verticals within the sport and within USA
Wrestling that are really good, and there's you know there's
challenging ones too, and you know it's not you talk about you
know state chapters, and you know we're we're blessed by you
know the Tennessee's state chapter structure and your
leadership, and you know getting the right people on the bus that
that share that vision that hey it's about the kids and it's
about providing opportunities. We always get that right. It's
not in you know. There's times where where we struggle, and you
know we can get better. And as Bruce Baumgartner, you know,
challenges us constantly is that hey, we just got to get better.
We learn from our mistakes, and and and move things forward. And
you know, I think sometimes as USA Wrestling grows, right? We
become a bigger target for people to criticize us. Ah,
these guys, you know, and and you know a lot of those
criticism we criticism we deserve, but you know, but I
tell you that you know I assure you there's 50 full time
professionals that wake up every day in Colorado Springs trying
to you know work hard to provide opportunities and lead things.
So
I love that when every year we go the when I go with the state
leaders meetings, that's the first thing when your opening
address every year. I mean you are beyond beyond beyond
thankful for your the staff and and you because you obviously
being a strong player in the Olympic movement and being on
the different boards and seeing the different organizations, you
know, out there, and just say you're basically hands down.
There's nobody even close. We're like the model of all the
Olympic sports.
Yeah, and and it's you know Archie Randall in our at our we
have a breakfast every year for our state chapters, and you know
he came up to me this year and said, "Are you going to say the
same thing you say every year? And I said, "Yeah, I'm going to
say the same thing I say every year because I mean it, and I
don't think there's anything more important. And you know,
you you touched on a little bit, you know, the the enormous
number of people that volunteer their time to to give back and
pay things forward or opportunities forward is, and
that's about all we can do is thank them. Yeah, and you know,
so I've I've always felt that that is an important
responsibility that leadership has is to is to make sure that
people know that that they're appreciated for their for their
investment in, you know, but you know, one of the things that we
talked about in that state leaders breakfast, which is, you
know, I think something that will be, you know, left to the
next generation, is this idea of the generational wealth
distribution from one generation to the next, and and you know,
we are on the precipice of the biggest wealth transfer in the
history of humankind, and there's no question that's going
to happen. But are we going to pass that wisdom on to the next
generation? And I think our sports figured that out a long
time ago, right? And you know we talked about that earlier in
this call about. Or this this podcast about you know paying
things forward and
and
you know you walking on the floor of the junior nationals
and seeing you know literally hundreds if not 1000s of people
that are are doing just that wrestling's figured that out
yeah
you know we're gonna we're gonna be just fine
I agree
because we're gonna pass that that on to the next generation
and and so I mean, that's a cool thing about wrestling and in in
the organization.
Yeah, awesome. Last thing, what do we got to look forward to? U
20 threes, the senior level worlds. Yeah, you just got to be
super excited there. Olympic Games. We got three huge events
coming up here soon in the United States soil, and it's
it's pretty it's pretty amazing.
Well, intimidating in this environment, and you know, and
you think about you know why why would we host the U 23 World
Championships, and and you know if you look at it from a
business perspective, it doesn't make any sense, right? It's it's
expensive. It doesn't, you know, you're it's going to cost way
more than you know it's gonna we'll take in a lot less revenue
than we'll extend in expenses, but we feel it's really
important for us expose our country and our wrestling
community to international wrestling and and paint a vision
for how this works leading up to the Olympic Games, so when we
had the opportunity to host the, I mean, originally we wanted to
host the U 20 s, and then there was a a request by UWW to to
back away from the U 20 s because they had a deal
supposedly with Bahrain to host the seniors in the U 20 s, and
in the same year, and you know we got to looking at the team,
and thought, man, there there might be a lot of U 20 guys on
the U 23 team because we're I mean we're young, yeah, true,
and and girls, and so you know we we said okay, and then the
next curveball was they moved the date, and you know as as you
know I mean there's a lot of athletes that are on our senior
world team that are U23 eligible, and so I mean that
that messed with us a little bit because we thought it would take
away a lot of our elite athletes from the U23 World
Championships, and you know what we're finding out is those U23
senior world eligible athletes want to do both now. Whether
because the curveball was they moved the they moved it to a
week after in the fall of the U23s where it was you know
earlier in the year, but because of heat they they they wanted to
move it and you know we weren't happy about it. We didn't. We
didn't say, "Hey, that's okay with us. But you know, we we got
one vote, and so it's gonna. I mean, it's still a challenge
with the timing because you know, I I don't know when push
comes to shove. All of our you know senior number one athletes
that are U 23 are going to do it, but you know, and it and it
fell a little bit differently than than maybe we had thought.
So you know, we're we're going to get our stars to to to Vegas,
and you know, we we we we we do it for a couple of reasons. One
is we want to make sure that we're giving our athletes
opportunities to be successful, and we know for sure that
competing at home gives athletes an opportunity to be maybe a
little bit more successful. I mean, home ice is a is a thing
absolutely, and and gives us an opportunity to promote the the
international styles with within our country gives us an
opportunity to to train volunteers to participate in
these these international type world championships, Olympic
games, and you know we thought it was worth. Oh, we think it's
worth
it.
So you know, our obviously we want to competitively win for
sure. We want to raise the relevancy of wrestling and
expose international wrestling to to our to our community, and
also set a standard for the international federation of how
events should be hosted. And I mean that sounds a little bit
arrogant, probably, but you know it started in you know I think
1996. Most people said, "Hey, the best wrestling competition
ever hosted was the 96 Olympic Games, and and was awesome.
Yeah, and it was right. And and USA Wrestling deserves a lot of
credit for that because if you remember, it was in a in an
environment where the Atlanta Committee for the Olympic Games
didn't put a big priority on wrestling, and and we had
leadership and you know Jim Shear and I was able to serve as
competition manager for those games and you know Jim Shear
made it very clear early to me as the competition manager in
Atlanta that hey we're not going to let ACOG hamstring our
ability to host the best Olympic games ever and we. U.S.
Wrestling invested in those games and and made sure that the
experience was awesome, and it was, and and so we set the
standard for you know how wrestling should be presented,
and you know we've hosted world championships in the past.
That's been true. We've we've we've elevated. I know this
sounds really wickedly arrogant, but it's true. I mean, and
that's another reason why we're we're hosting these events is,
you know, we want to set a standard of elevating the the
the quality of the experience for the athletes and the fans.
And you know, our our sport hasn't done a good job of that
lately. I mean, you go to the, you know, the these world
championships and other countries, and you know they
yeah they have the lights and the mats and the you know
signage, but you know 2030 people in stands, yeah, and you
know we really feel like you know we we have a responsibility
and an obligation at least take a big swing at having you know
people come and and and watch and participate and you know
things like raff those those those promotions are helpful
because they're they're they're cracking the code on attendance
and getting people to to to care and then obviously so the U 23
is the first part of that the the senior worlds has different
value to us, more expensive, by the way. And I'll tell you a
little story about that. Maybe again a little business. And
when we hosted the game, those games in in in Vegas before, we
made a million dollar profit in profit. $1 million. Yeah, really
sold a million dollars in tickets. Did really well with
sponsorship and the the
World Championships in Vegas. Really, yeah,
and and where the the the financial driver comes is
there's a a fee that everyone that gets a credential has to
pay. It's $250 a day for three meals in a in a double occupancy
room. So we were able to in in when we were there before hosted
the event at the Orleans, and you know negotiated a really
really attractive room rate at the Orleans, and then the the
the buffet, which was I mean insanely cheap, yet it was the
best food athletes had ever experienced at a at a World
Championships, and so everything kind of fell fell together, and
and we were really profitable. Well, our our international
federation and their infinite wisdom saw those you know books
and and balance sheets and budgets and said, well, we need
to charge two and a half million for the rights fee now. So the
rights fee went, you know, it's went up. I mean, it's $2 million
more than it was. So I mean, I have a Wisconsin public
education, and you know, if there's a $2 million expense put
on top of an event where you made a million dollars, there's
some ground to make up, so I mean we're going to work hard
and and you know and you know to obviously do everything in our
power to make make it make it balance, but there's also a
commitment by our organization that have looked forward and
say, hey, these you know this is arguably the most important
three four year cycle in our history, and you know we can't
we can't be afraid of of you know challenges like you know
finances. Obviously, we it's important to to to stay focused
on that. But the other thing that in you know this is Captain
Obvious, but hosting the the the 27 World Championships is the
most significant qualifier for for LA, and when we hosted the
games in in '96, you know we had automatic or night.
We hosted the Olympic
Games in '96. We had automatic qualifiers. So there's and right
now there's just 16 slots.
Yeah,
and and so you know we have to take advantage of every single
opportunity because you know we've been blessed to be kind of
the leading nation, if you will, when it comes to qualifying
after you know qual. I mean, 96 and 2000, it was still
relatively easy to get qualified. It's not anymore, and
and you know we hear people talk all the time. Oh, you know, the
Olympic Games is not that hard to win a gold medal. Well, yeah,
there's 16 people in in the way. That's true.
Yeah,
but yeah, there's a lot to get to that 16. And so, I mean,
we're hosting those games with the with the you know motivation
that it's going to help us you know with qualifying, further
help us develop the team that will you know go to LA and and
host the wrestling competition, and then ultimately we think it
gives us another shot to promote and raise the relevancy of
wrestling, and so and then obviously in in in 90. I guess
220 28. It's right. We wanna we wanna win every single gold
medal, and you know we want wrestling to you know be
recognized for what it is. And you know a lot of people don't
know this that wrestling is the number three metal producing
sport for Team USA number three, only behind. There's no no sport
has won more Olympic medals than than wrestling, besides track
and field and swimming. Really, and I mean that's you know a lot
of people don't know that, and you know in 20 in 2000
limited opportunities, yeah, to win medals.
Yeah, and in it was funny in in 2013, you know, we're digging
into all the data to you know try to do what we could to
justify our participation, and then when we started looking at
you know how widely distributed medals are in the sport of
wrestling, I mean no no sport besides track and field gives
more Olympic medals to more different countries in
wrestling, and then you know we started. I wonder how we, where
do we line up within Team USA? And it was at the time we were
we were tied with diving ironically. Now my friends at
basketball are like, Rich, would you quit saying that because we
can only win one? And but it's true. I mean, wrestling is the
number three all-time medal-producing sport for Team
USA, and so I mean that's that's kind of cool, and I think
something a lot of people don't don't realize, but you know,
this U 23 World Championships, the Senior World Championships,
are all part of the equation to put us in a position to be
successful in 28, and you know we we have. I mean we're bullish
on our on our prospects, and you know certainly you know on the
Greco side we're really excited about the about the trajectory
that we're starting to build there, and you know obviously
want to continue with our with our men and women's freestyle
programs, and you know, just you know, thinking back on in Paris,
and you know, if you remember in in in Tokyo, I mean, we had that
great Olympics in Tokyo, and then the next cycle, you know,
Japan had had the best Olympics in in Paris, and we don't want
that to happen to us. I mean, we don't want to wait to Brisbane
to to to have our Olympics, and you know, we we're fixing to
have it in in in L.A. And I mean, we we I mean, feel really
confident that the pieces are in place. I mean, spend 10 minutes
out in this arena and and look at how further. I mean, we're
going to see it today. How how far along women's wrestling has
come.
It's crazy.
And you know, Greco and in freestyle here. I mean, it's
it's incredible the level that American wrestlers are at right
now, and you know that's back to what I said earlier:
infrastructure, and you know, state chapter infrastructure,
regional training center infrastructure, our school
college community focus on on on wrestling and the opportunities.
I mean, our our school college program is the envy of the
entire world, in terms of right, I mean, 10,000 high schools have
yeah, maybe 11,000 now, but have varsity high school wrestling
programs, and that's, I mean, that's significant. We should
dominate. We should
absolutely,
and and we're not gonna we're gonna apologize for dominating.
By the way, and you know we have a ways to go, and we can't you
know be arrogant about it or you know just assume it's going to
happen. But I mean, there's a there's a lot of reasons to
think that we are on the precipice of the golden age of
our sport.
I love it. That's that's I think we're going to cap it right
there. That's the best stuff right there, Rich Bender. Not
only thank you for your time on the podcast, but man, thank you
so much for for your leadership and and the infrastructure and
the the this the again overall just the overall leadership of
USA Wrestling. We're in a we're in a really really really good
time right now, and and you're a huge huge part of that.
Well, I'm blessed and honored and grateful for what you do,
and and grateful for what the sport means to to our society
and the impact that it has on countless kids.
Awesome. Well, thank you. This is a podcast for legends and
risk painter. Appreciate you, man. Yeah, legend. Thanks,
man.