you
You
think it's an interesting world down here because...
dealing with a number of interesting things, even culturally.
First of all, it's like a sun culture.
that's a little different.
It's a little more laid back and more boring as well.
But the sun definitely has an effect on your psyche and your body.
and then you have uh...
fishing in south florida you have uh...
very large uh...
aging community you know you like you go out to eat in three-quarters of the people there over eighty years old very strange you know and and so that that's a whole vibration men
in it you know we were also in miami and on then you have the latin culture and then of course you like south beach and that's like the like height of you know he didn't
in the world.
So everybody is in there, you know, showing off their car and their cologne and their, you know, gold chains and the whole thing there.
It's a very highly sexed place, if you know what I mean.
so you have all that to jumble together so it's interesting you know like other places you know it gives you food for thought there in extremes that you normally don't have the
opportunity especially with something like south beach and then you're dealing with the aging population here that's also very interesting
Hmm.
Wow.
So do you see, you just see a different set of people?
Yeah, well, you know, place like New York though, like New York City, see, I think, a wide diversity of people.
And here, again, I think that the things that are interesting here is, especially in Miami, you know, have such a Latin presence.
And then you have that whole South Beach scene thing.
And a lot of people down there with a lot of showy money stuff.
There's a lot of showy stuff there.
and then then you have the whole people who come here to retire but it is like it's not like diverse like new york you have like certain real noticeable uh...
you know sectors society but because it's so concentrated you know it has its own interesting aspects especially especially old people
Yeah, yeah, I've been watching that a lot.
A lot of them, you know, it's really interesting because there's a lot of people who are just like waiting to die.
Eugh.
And it's very interesting being around, very interesting.
you know, they're just kind of, you know, they're relaxing, spending their last days, you know, they don't, not all, but many of older people, you know, they're enjoying
themselves, but they're they're not really as a group, stretching to look to do new things.
A lot of people look to me like they're kind of finished.
They're kind of enjoying themselves, but they don't have, you you very rarely like talk to somebody in their 70s and 80s and they have dreams.
Right.
which really makes them different people like in the twenties and thirties they have dreams and things they wanted seen do but i don't get every now and then i do which is
really interesting but my mom is it's interesting like my mom is uh...
seen this guy and he's eighty two and he's still playing tennis and his partner is playing tennis with him ninety four so to me that was anybody look city look young
I see people here in their 70s who look very old.
m Yeah.
So, yeah, it's just kind of interesting being around people as a group that, you know, they say they're retired.
And then it's interesting to just see what all that means.
Like what it really means to be retired.
Are you retired from work?
Are you retired from life?
Right.
In a lot of cases, a lot of people look like they're retired from life.
Yeah.
Well, it probably has a lot to do with what their definition of work was.
And if their work was a burden and was terrible, then, you know, they probably never found the kind of work that made them feel like they were actually of service to the world.
Yeah, I think that's one of the things.
And then the other thing is the kind of interesting that now that you bring it up, but I think that a lot of the, just seems to me is that the people who are retired, who during
their working years had kind of an interesting life outside of their work life, you know, they had other interests and other ambitions and work with like some of their life.
seemingly have a different attitude and then the people who you know regardless of how successful they were in work if their work like totally defined who they were and that's
they did and they made money whatever even if they're very successful made money or they had status and now that gig is over but they really didn't have a lot of other interests
or pastimes or things kind of pulling them in other directions I think there's this
thought that uh...
i've seen it because i i hear this a lot from people who are working and they go you know i'm really going to work my ass off until i'm sixty sixty five when i get all this money
i'm going to be comfortable and then i'm going to you know kind of pursue the things that i'd really like to do you know relax and enjoy myself but i i don't actually see that as
happening
because i'd met a lot of people here and what happened is that over the course of the thirty four years working actually were fairly one-dimensional and they're very successful
at the doing me stop and now they were like you get beautiful you know how in florida get the elective to drive around for the actually never like acquired uh either at times and
they weren't in the habit
of uh...
taking on new new interest in hobbies so their assumption that when they were sixty five they have this really and a free life to do whatever they don't know what they want to do
so they land up just playing cards everybody just finds people want to play cards and go out to restaurants talking about the same old things and it's really it's interesting
watching and then then you know meet all the people who
were working but during their working years they actually had kind of a lot of different interests and then they'll retire but it's a little different because they they have a
nature for you know being a kind of a kind of a well-rounded person and then they take that on so I think a lot of these habits are actually developed earlier in Asia you can't
just kind of turn it on and off
So it's kind of just being here around, you know, my mom's elderly, most of her friends are elderly.
And then you see these pictures, I hope I'm not being gross talking about all these, it's just like the soup de jour, right?
I'm in South Florida, I'm around, everybody here is 80 years old, so how can you not notice, you know?
Yeah, and it's interesting, because even like in my mom's house, you know, you have these pictures of her with her friends.
And I just saw these friends a couple years ago.
And these pictures are now like the old faded pictures, right?
These are like, you know, the ones from the 50s.
These are actually taken within the last five years.
And, you know, they're on a cruise ship, whatever, and she's there with her friends.
And all of a sudden, like, two of the four people in the photograph are no longer on the planet.
And it's really interesting, and you could just see, you know, it's like all these pictures and people just kind of falling out of the pictures one by one.
So it really affects your mentality.
And I can see how it affects people.
can really see in the elderly people, among many of them, it's interesting.
Some of them seem to have peace and some look really depressed.
Yeah, it's true.
and i think the depression is kind of this kind of red unique almost like this and resignation tactic who's is always is ending it and and and actually the crew is ending
and there's really no kind of resolution why they were here to begin with and and there's also this kinda
kind of emptiness in that, you know, I'm going and I'm no longer going to exist.
And you could feel it and you know that you could see that people starting to think about it, but they don't want to think about it.
And that's my experience.
It's fascinating.
It's like nothing, you know, I really love interacting with people, but this is its own thing.
It's like giving the whole group of people who's the, you know, the cruise is ending.
So what have your seminars been like?
Are there many elderly people there?
no no to the contrary i think that the people over the plate no i within actually i've been miami and i came to a evening workshop on relationships spiritual relationships at a
place called synergy yoga gene uh...
in south beach and so it's in any any funny to you with you know it on the very can all loud almost like bourbon street in in
New Orleans, just a kind of a loud festive restaurants outside bars and down a little alleyways actually this yoga studio in this total bedlam.
It's really crazy.
It's really noisy and half the people on the street are drunk and then you go down this little alleyway and there's this whole sanctuary in the middle of all this and you
wouldn't even know it unless you knew where it was, you know?
And so we taught there and it was a nice turnout.
and we dealt one evening with uh...
uh...
spiritual relationships and then and i'd say that actually to the contrary i would be a little one of that group i felt ancient you know i just turned sixty one last week and
uh...
i think the average age of the person in the workshop probably close to thirty and half my age and you know this topic about relationships is you know big one for everybody
So we spent an evening and I always like giving those workshops because, you know, I don't know what the expectation is to the people who go there, but usually by the end of
evening, they get their heads blown off because they have, you know, I'm coming from probably an unexpected place from whatever they're expecting.
I think they're expecting something to be kind of very new agey.
and you know, about relationships in a very etheric manner and soulmates and that kind of stuff.
But uh actually most of what I'm talking about is, you know, common sense things that my grandparents would tell me.
It's just very pragmatic, uh straight ahead stuff that's often in conflict to what they're doing currently.
So that kind of gets their head spinning.
So, but everybody, but you know, even though I'm telling people stuff,
you know very spiritual way of looking at the world of relationships i'm very happy that the feedback is usually a hundred percent positive and people appreciate hearing something
that uh...
may even disagree with them but i think they all agree in that it's hard to refute the basic wisdom of it
Mm.
and and and and i get a lot of feedback when i do these uh...
relationship courses uh...
i always get a lot of feedback from people that that like one night like totally changed their life that they had never really hurt it quite like that and that even though it's
not something that they do currently they had to admit that they can now see how they got themselves in trouble and of course and
what i was talking about deep down is what everybody there really wants themselves and so i feel very blessed i had a great teacher and uh...
you know it's it's fun teaching the people in their like twenties because i used to live like that i was a point i think what we've talked about it other podcast i was a party guy
so i was a party guy and i want to call myself like a professional womanizer
but uh...
you know i like i like pretty girls and i you know and i used to go out a lot and had a lot of women in my life and i had that kind of life so i i i can understand that lifestyle
and uh...
so i know where they're at because i've lived that way and then had this great teacher and he showed me another way to live and that's worked out much better
Yeah.
Well, do you...
Are...
Is living the way that they are the way that you did?
Is that any better or worse than the way that you're living now?
Well, better or worse, I would say this.
I mean, to put that question context, because I'm getting older, I see things in all different contexts.
I think that in anyone's life, you know, you got to experience life.
You can't, um, you can't live in a, you know, a company in your whole life.
You got to experience life.
And if you're a smart person, you get to things firsthand.
And then you can learn from them and make choices as you go forward.
And so I think where a lot of them are at, I don't think it's better or worse.
think that a lot of them are doing things that seem like they're, um, they're what they want to do, but they're going to end up getting smacked in some cases.
And that's how they learn.
And so that's good too.
Yeah, so it's all I mean, it's all relative.
But if you were to say at the end of the day, if they were my age and living this way or the way that I'm living right now, I would say without unabashedly would say that the way
that I'm living in regard to all the relationships is far superior way to live.
And it's not like I'm putting down anybody.
It's just that I think.
you know, it's not just about relationships, I think it's always better to live a conscious life rather than an impulsive life.
Hmm.
So it's not about...
It is, to a certain extent, having experiences and experiencing a range of experiences and a range of possibilities, but you're also saying that there comes a time to kind of not do
that.
I mean, what are you getting out of the way that you're living other than the experience itself?
in far as like the world of relationships.
Yeah, if you categorize the way you're living now in terms of the relationships, what do you get out of them now that you weren't getting out of them before?
well of course when you talk about and you know to about my marriage yeah when you talk about the related the type of relationships not to about like friendship talking about
intimate relationship uh...
yes well you know it's it's really almost had been to jump into it because this is uh...
you each area but i would say that that just for this particular conversation i'd i'd love to
really get into depth with this thing with relationships over the course of a number of specific conversations.
But one thing I would, like I was saying this in class the other day, that the bigger picture is it's never about the relationships.
It's how the relationships fit into a bigger panorama of your life.
So your life in general needs to have purpose and meaning.
And to me, to have a really phenomenal life, you really need like singular purpose in your life.
Like, you know, I'm here to be this person, to do this, you know, have, be very mission oriented.
And you're, you know, have a sense of, know, who I am, what my identity is, why I'm here.
And then the relationship needs to kind of fold into that.
It can't be like the other way around.
You can't like have an interpersonal relationship and then.
build your life around that that usually disaster you know it's much better to know where you're going and then consciously involved yourself with another individual so that it is
congruent with your mutual mission and people normally don't think in this way so you know basically the way this is most benefited me in the way that i presented subject is that it
You know, looking at relationships this way has given me the opportunity to live what I would call like a congruent life with direction.
Okay, and then that brings great fulfillment to myself and hopefully with the person I'm with who is also using this vehicle neutrally for the same reason.
So why is it if at the end of the day, at the end of your life, everyone has to deal with the idea that you will physically vanish from this?
my god, you know, I was so happy you said that.
because you know, it's really interesting.
I knew this would come up in a conversation and you're great, you know, afternoon that I don't want to, you know, it's podcast so you can blush because I'm, always singing your
praises because you're always like, you're always like a step ahead of me here.
And this, this is exactly, this is amazing.
The other night I'm at the dinner table with my mom.
her best friend and her uh...
and her boyfriend and this is exactly what came up in the conversation and these people are in their eighties and one of the people at the table her friend i guess she just could
recognize something in me and my wife and she's the one who like at all left field just
broach this subject we just eating dinner imagine if you like in in south florida you're around me you know it's kind of like jewish people from brooklyn now living in in florida
people right and we need dinner and uh...
and one of the people just have a clear blue sky wants to know about what would she ask i think she was asking about
the incarnation and what happens after we die.
I mean, it's like, right, you know, while they're eating like a filter fish, right?
So it's like out of left field.
And of course, the other two people at the table are like, this is an unusual conversation.
I mean, it's not usual conversation that there's somebody who's just kind of out of the clear blue sky saying, what happens to us after we die?
Like, whoa.
right?
This landed up opening up, I talking about this for like an hour and a half.
And it was like the best class I taught the whole time I was here, for sure.
And I think the people at Paymore were absolutely stunned and never heard anything like this, but could not deny anything that they were hearing.
So what did you say?
Because what I was going to ask earlier is if you do leave this earth and whatever existence you had here is gone, what is the point of having a singular goal in life rather
than just being like these people that you see that are waiting for death and just have the experiences of life wash over you?
Right.
So this is actually kind of what we're talking about.
And we were talking about kind of this whole intersection of like reality, the beginning of time.
Can you imagine this conversation?
The beginning of time, existence, reincarnation, death and infinity.
And your question, and actually somebody actually said something which kind of really
provoked the conversation in the direction that you're saying they're going.
It's really interesting because, okay, so after we die here, and then, you know, I was basically saying that, you know, at the bottom of the day, we're essence, we're spirit.
So when you die, you drop your body and they're going, and you hear this question all the time.
Okay, then they always ask this, well, where do we go?
You know, it's an interesting word because they go where.
they're to define a place.
You know, like where?
It's like not here but there.
But this is how their mind's working.
So if we're dying, we are going to someplace.
You know, they're thinking in terms of like taking like an inter-coastal trip here to another place, right?
And I was sharing with them that you're not going anywhere.
There's nowhere to go to.
Because you are who you are.
You're not like...
you're not going to necessarily have a body.
so, to answer your question, this really gets into uh this whole concept of reincarnation and karma.
Because if you really look at it, you, at the end of the day, you are consciousness that's existing within a physical body.
And the physical body...
the human life is just kind of like your vessel and your spirit is living within this vessel and you got shit to do and you got so much time to do it and you're here, you
you're on a mission, you're here for reason.
So you're kind of, there's a reason, you have an infinite, you have an infinite existence.
Right now you're taking a human form.
How do you assume that we're here for a reason?
Because everything, if you look at it, and again, you know, these are like phenomenal questions.
So we're like jumping all over the place, which is fine.
Okay.
I'm just like riffing on this right now.
But, but these are very big concepts because, but a lot of them are self evident in that, know, like somebody at the table the other night, this was a really deep conversation.
They were kind of bringing in evolution.
Right.
they asked me if i believe in evolution and i'm well if you're talking about what you think evolution is which is the evolution of physical species of course how can you be
sure why not but i'm now and after actually mean that's a limited view of evolution because actually everything is evolving everything is evolving so you're not just evolving
as a species in a cellular way but there's also evolution in intelligence
and is an evolution in consciousness.
Okay?
So where everything will be completely conscious, which we're not right now.
Right?
So when you talk about purpose, there's not just like an individual purpose, there's a collective purpose, is that all of nature is constantly changing.
It's not like changing just for no purpose.
You can actually see that it's evolving into something.
And if you pay attention, what it's evolving into is pure consciousness.
All right?
So whatever each individual is born into, you have your own individual role to play in all of that.
And then at the end of the day, every being is on this planet to just get closer to where it's living in pure consciousness.
And so when the human body has its last heartbeat and its last breath, the consciousness is what continues on exactly where it's at.
So there is a difference between people just hanging out to die and people who are still growing.
Because the people who still growing are on an ascent.
Unless those people are hanging out, they're already
completely self-realized Buddhas, okay, which I didn't see many at the retirement home the other night, but you know, unless they were self-realized completely and the body will
drop and they'll become pure spirit.
this body will drop but their existence will go on and they will just take some form where their consciousness will start off where it ended because you can't kill consciousness.
What's the difference between a Buddha and a regular person?
uh...
that actually the only difference between a booted regular person the booty knows who he is completely though people put magic around it but it's it's it's just represents pure
consciousness which which a person can realize in this lifetime infected the highest realization this person in this lifetime is to actually experience and know yourself to be
a hundred percent
And to the extent that you're not there is the extent that you will experience pain and suffering in this lifetime.
And that's, not a Buddhist, but that's the Buddhist teachings too.
The Buddhist teachings of life is pain and suffering, and because that's what we need to do.
we're, you know, none of the Buddhist teachings were attached.
have to be unattached.
To be unattached, you experience yourself, and you're enlightened, and there's no reason for you
to take on any incarnation.
So when you said it was an ascent um for every soul, there's a trajectory with this highest part of enlightenment being the top.
And when you reach the top, that's essentially being done growing though.
Because what happens to the spirit after you reach the top?
Well, once you totally self-realize, no need to grow anymore.
you're self-realized.
So every being is growing and changing, but at some point on a time-space continuum, that soul will be liberated because there's nothing holding it back.
all these, as human beings, we're sort of equally evolved just to be human beings.
but they're human beings who are more evolved and they're human beings who are liberated, not many.
But that's the highest achievement as a human being is not only to be liberated but to assist other beings to be liberated as well.
to what happens to the soul when it's liberated.
Nothing.
That's the thing.
The soul, by nature, is totally free.
And it's all part of God's play that we're encumbered to one extent or other.
Our soul is kind of like yanked down and limited to the extent that we're attached.
to things that we have these all these kind of attachments to things and all these attachments ah even attachments of affection and comfort and self-importance power all
these things these things encumber the souls being absolutely free and liberated and there's a way in this lifetime to kind of burn those things off so you're pure
your pure freedom, pure spirit, even as you're alive within the body.
And so you don't even have to wait till you die to experience this.
Because this, you actually, to the contrary, what you want to do in your lifetime is experience liberation now.
That's the purpose of spiritual life.
And so there's like even in the Sikh path, know.
gunaniko he used to talk about to die while you're yet alive he always used to say that the purpose of life is to die while yet alive but that's really what he was saying is that
while you're still alive that you feel you experience deathlessness even while you're alive and then you're free so that's so if you can imagine it's not like the soul or your
essence
come something else or go somewhere else.
It's actually the contrary.
It's actually you're going nowhere and all the chains are let go.
That's the highest state of being of a human being and it's one of the great things about being a human being is that that is actually in your DNA.
Are you still there or did I lose you?
Yeah, my soul is just checking.
are you there elutia okay
Yeah, you're still there.
alright they from there so where are we where where are we
uh I mean, I guess it just it seems counterintuitive to me to have a goal, like have a singular kind of goal or vision or plan in life and yet also be seeking this this
lessening of your worldly burdens.
well yeah but you know it all depends on the context you look at it because the great thing about being human being is that there are many ways to serve many many there's many
ways to serve the humanity and as many ways as there is to serve the humanity you can actually experience your totality of yourself walking on that path
So it's not like two things at once.
It's like, for instance, you know, the other night I was talking about marriage and one of the things my teacher always taught us, which really makes lot of sense to me now, is that
the highest spiritual path, the highest form of yoga is actually marriage.
It's a very different way of looking at it.
But he goes, he says, you you think you're practicing yoga, he says, if you really want to practice yoga,
the highest form of yoga is marriage.
And I didn't quite understand him back then, but now of course I do.
Because, you know, in that endeavor, if you're really into it and you apply yourself to it, everything you need to know about life and reality and spirit and everything you can
actually learn in that, in on that playing field.
And then, of course, and you could
probably say that about many endeavors in life, especially whatever it is you decide to devote your life to.
So wherever you're putting your energy as a human being, it will, if it's really a very exalted thing and you put your whole energy into doing this, you know, through this, you
can realize yourself.
know, we, we like friends, we, were, we were talking about this.
they are telling you how
you know, there's a person I know who was wanting to, you know, just create a look for, you know, my website and my flyer and, and, you know, that kind of thing.
might call my, just kind of my, my, my, uh, my promotional look, right.
And so, you know, she's saying to me, well, what do you want?
I'm going, well, okay, well, I'll tell you what, this is, this is, this is your, this is your mission.
You're, you're going to.
going to create like a business card and a flyer and a website and this way you're to have to represent I want you to represent strength, nobility, kindness and excellence.
And she's, oh my God, you know, well, you know, that's not like, you know, that's not like a job from a cracker company.
You know, now I'm asking her to actually
in her job conceptualized a look something that represents the highest values known to man she doesn't have to go to church you know i'm saying she if she liked totally through
herself into this just do a job she can actually experience enlightenment but totally putting her whole being into that because if she she's trying to
represented she's going to experience it.
It's like these people used to do these like paintings, you know, of Jesus or whatever.
I very exalted.
you can imagine just painting those paintings where that must have put their head just totally putting themselves into the painting.
So I think that's true for any endeavor you do in life if you like totally throw your whole self into it and it's...
of service to humanity, can be a means through which you learn who you are.
Hmm.
That's it.
mean, that implies that there's some innate knowledge inside of us.
Well, yeah, well, of course there is.
And I think that's the whole thing is like, definitely is this gets back, you know, again, all these, these different, these different spiritual concepts, all kind of intersect
because yeah, we would say it's in your DNA.
You're hardwired already.
You were born with the code, right?
So it's already, it's like in a science fiction, science fiction, it would be like somebody, you were born and you were planted with like a chip, right?
So the code's already implanted, right?
But it's not activated.
But it's there.
I mean, it's right there.
You don't have to, it's all like the spiritual point of view.
It's not like the truth is outside of you.
The truth is actually inside of you.
codes in there and you have to activate it.
And there's a way to activate it and that's by living a certain way.
And that will automatically open it up.
again, if you go back to this whole thing, even a karma of everything being caused and effect, it's kind of like you today on whatever it is, March 20th or 21st of 2013.
whatever it is that's you is a result of everything that's happened in time since the beginning of time that's brought you to this very moment.
Yeah?
since you're kind of a permutation of the first wave, that first, that first primordial sound, as we would say, okay, is...
Is that, maybe I should go in another room because, do you hear that stuff in the background?
Okay, okay.
Yeah, so that original, we would say the original vibration, uh it's kind of everything in the universe is a permutation from that original, that like a clear lake, a little pebble
is thrown, you got that first wave going out, and then every ripple is a permutation of that, including you.
So within you is actually the code going back all the way to the beginning.
And what you do in your life is there are certain ways of living and certain practices that actually people have found out can like open up that door.
And then you experience the primordial energy, is
the infinity which people call God and so it's almost like the God code is in you and you need something to like switch it on and so that is that so to answer your question yes
every human being has that in their DNA there's nobody who doesn't it's not something you grab from outside you're born with it
But people are at different levels of evolution and wisdom.
So that that happening in this lifetime is not probable for most people.
But what is very likely is that for many people in this lifetime, they'll actually bring themselves farther along that path, drop the body.
the spirit will be evolved, the consciousness will be evolved to a certain closer level to this absolute opening.
They'll take on another form and space and they'll continue that journey until all of this is dropped and they kind of switch back onto that code.
So for people who aren't, I mean, is it possible to go through this life and not make any progress and even make anti?
I mean, I think that's it.
kind of go kind of go backwards.
Yeah, there are people that definitely go backwards.
uh...
it would appear that way uh
what happens to them?
I mean, does everybody get regenerated no matter what you did?
Yeah, I in the end it all everything you know There's there's a saying in almost all the spiritual paths that all things come from God and all things go to God So it's all a
matter of time and space You know and and this lifetime is amazingly short Seems longer than it is, but it's very it's like a blink and so and so ah And even if it seems like
people are spiraling down
uh...
it's all you ball that there is learning from that that will be still taken care of it a later time and this is what you know i get i i can't you know kind of we like it's like a
jazz riff here we're gonna like you know you know that the other night i was kind of gotta bring in people long like step-by-step hearing showing them how it all can pull together
we're here we kind of
all over the place which is equally fine.
uh
but you know from bringing in different concepts at different points but again this brings us back to karma which is at the end of the day it's about cause and effect.
is no more you know people make these things, oh I'm driving around I got good parking karma you know stuff like that but actually all karma really is is that it's a law of the
universe that every cause has an effect that's all karma means all right and
And so there is this thought that there's things that produce good karma and there's things that produce bad karma.
Because everything has a cause and effect.
So for instance, if you in your lifetime are very honest person and you're very generous in giving and you help those in need and you're very, you know, all those kinds of things
that everybody looks up to, that brings good karma.
mean, it's it's...
it's not even like an outside source is rewarding you, it's like you're writing your own ticket there.
You do uplifting things and you help out other people and you're kind and yada yada yada and it just creates a whole scenario where it kind of brings you to a higher platform.
And then of course if you do things and you're harmful to other people and you're cruel and this and that and you steal and you lie,
you're actually when you're doing it is you're just more inflating your own self you burdening yourself like you're you pilot shit on yourself and you gotta get that off and
you gotta clean up any uh...
you know you you're really at the end of the if you're doing the kind of things like this that are uh...
self-centered and hurtful to others you need a person hurting most of yourself because it's just burdening you deep down your conscious knows
not a good thing and and and it's just another thing you have to unshackle yourself from at some point so at the end of the day it's cause and effect and you you want to create
things that and ultimately at the end of the day anything is good karma is something that's leading you closer to liberation and anything that we would refer to as bad karma
is anything
that is for the shackling you and that you'll have to um...
unencumber yourself.
it.
So I mean it's a very, it seems like a very self-centered pursuit with the hopeful effect that if you do it right you're, you'll flow out to other people, your kindness will...
You know, it's really interesting.
It's kind of like, and know, and charity is a very good, good example.
It's because people always say, you know, give 10 % and you'll get 10, then you get 10 times in return.
Right?
So, you know, you would talk about giving their 10th.
This is very common too.
Same thing.
So I think you're onto something.
You're actually very well.
I love talking to you here.
I think sometimes I think you're actually wiser than you know.
you're always saying wise things and i think this is another one of them and this is that there's um...
you actually brought up something that'll come up a lot in our our talk it's something that people who think they're on a spiritual path they can't get get through this it's
like one of the big obstacle spiritual growth is that people cannot accept paradoxes and i
i struggle with this myself and i see how many people get lopped off they think that very they really you know becoming very spiritually oriented this and then at some point they
start hearing paradoxes and then the wheels come off because they can't live with paradox so it's kind of like you it's really interesting you were talking about that spiritual
life uh...
when i think spiritual life is that you know there's an intention to liberate oneself you know
and develop along lines where you have the possibility in this lifetime to liberate yourself and others.
So on the one hand, it is probably the most selfish of all pursuits, really, because you your soul, your life, and you're not going to be denied.
You're going do whatever you need to do to do this, and in a way you're almost being ruthless about it.
you know we do whatever i can because there's no plan b here i'm not going to negotiate this so it's a very self-centered self-oriented pursuit on the other hand you cannot
really get to the higher levels of this without being selfless which is very paradoxical but at certain point in your development you actually realize that the only way to
liberate yourself is
sacrifice your life for others.
It's very paradoxical, but I totally get it.
It took me a long time, but you I've been very fortunate in my life.
I've had many, what you would call like epiphanies.
And every time I had an epiphany, my reaction was to break out laughing.
Every time I just broke out laughing and usually I broke out laughing is that I'd be laughing at myself because I'd laugh at myself and how stupid I was because I didn't get
it.
You know, and so, and often I laugh because it's like a very, it's like, you know, I just think that all these great spiritual masters were like the best comedians of all time.
They were, they really were the best comedians because this stuff actually is very funny.
If you listen to any great comedian, they're always funny because they're, they're kind of like, they can see the truth within things or they see the opposite within things that
other people just can't see.
mean, the best comedians are like brilliant.
Maybe if they actually can see what's funny, even what's in...
One sec.
Okay, yeah, okay.
I'm moving here.
The cook has...
I'm gonna start talking.
Or even outside, think I can do Now, Lucia, let me know.
I think I'm gonna talk outside here.
outside.
I need to do that.
Oh, it's so nice out here.
You know, living in New York, I don't have moments like this.
Actually sitting out on the back of the porch on the side of a golf course.
Oh, God is good to me.
Okay.
Super comedian.
uh...
well what was it talking about laughing laughing yeah you laugh at yourself because it's lot of this stuff is you get attached to things being this way or that way but maybe
they're both at the same time and uh...
and and that would be one of them is like i see these people there starting out on the spiritual path and they're very earnest you know they're very serious they're very
self-disciplined
And of course, you have to be that way.
You have to be self-disciplined and you have to take it seriously and you have to dedicate yourself.
But that's kind of in a way, I'm working it hard for myself, but at some point that gets heavy and you kind of have this insight is that if your whole life is dedicated to bring
happiness to others, then you're free.
one of the burdens and that's why being self-centered is so painful is that you just keep your locked in your prison cell and if you kinda get that hey you know what i'm i'm
already happy i don't need anything so i'm just gonna help other people out that's very liberating but very few people actually only understand that like intellectually oh
So what you're saying is actually true about the selfishness but a bit paradoxical, which is good, is that I think when you're starting out on the spiritual path, it's very
important to be very self-centered.
And people think, what?
But the thing is that you cannot start off being selfless because you don't have the consciousness to really even understand what it means.
So what you're doing is that you're kind of like being selfless but in a very self-centered, arrogant way.
It's like you're pushing it.
You're like, okay, I'm going to be selfless and that makes me a better person.
No, you're still stuck.
Because you're consciously trying, you're purposely trying to pretend that you're selfless before you're selfless, okay?
Because you want something out of it.
instead of it kind of being a natural flow from everything else.
So in the beginning, in the beginning of the spiritual path, you have to be selfish because everyone around you or most of the people around you don't want you to go forward.
They want you to hang in there with them.
And if you're serious about spiritual life, you have to make decisions that you're going to
You're gonna put yourself first right now.
You gotta get yourself together.
You gotta get your own shit together.
You gotta get healthy physically, mentally, spiritually, and you're gonna do whatever you need to do it, and people are not gonna understand, and they're gonna be angry, and
they're gonna feel abandoned.
But you gotta take care of business, because if you're ever gonna be in a position to help other people, you gotta be in a position to be able to help them, not just wanna help.
Yeah.
I anybody can, when you put it like that, I think it's clear from experience.
think a lot of people can understand that and can relate to that.
um I think everybody's been in a position where they've overextended themselves and you know what it feels like.
mean, it's, you're, feel bad because you feel like you're letting somebody down, but you're also, you've probably gotten to a point that you're really angry because you feel
like you've been used and
And it's really negative and it's bad, but it's something that you need to recognize and pull out of.
That way you can figure it out and keep going.
you know i i got an interesting example that amount like you know when i i was in my twenties i i can make the turn to get into life i took on now and that i've been living
for many decades and my family was it's funny to them busy my mom here so and history with family was incredibly angry incredibly angry and uh...
more or less disown me and then there was a lot of resentment
for many, years.
And it's like 25 years later, and it was like a fight.
I'm fighting for my right to have my own life, and they're fighting to keep me in their possession.
And so this is a very existential fight here, right?
I'm trying to break away, and they're trying to me planted.
And finally, there's a lot of resentment on both sides until I got to the point in my life that actually I felt that I had broken away.
And I didn't care.
And it was only at that point, many years later, so I go up to my father who was very angry at me for a long time.
up to him and I said, listen, I want to apologize to you.
And he goes, yeah, about what?
I said, you know,
when i a uh...
this gets back when you think anything about selfishness i think them you know when i'm cc when i made these decisions to change my life you know uh...
that was like totally selfish on my part i didn't think about how it would affect you at all and it was all about me so i want to apologize to you for the fact that i was
that incredibly selfish and didn't take your feelings into consideration at all.
So he, of course, is very surprised to hear me say this.
So he's going, oh, you know what to say, because here he's fighting me for all these decades, and he says, well, what do you want me to do about it?
And I said, nothing, nothing.
And in fact, although I said to you, and it's true that I'm really sorry that I hurt you this way,
i really don't have to tell you that if i had to do it all over again i do exactly the same thing because uh...
i needed a sense that you know i got this one life here and i'm not willing to flush it away i said i got something to do here i don't even understand i don't even understand
what i did or you know is that my heart told me that i needed to do this and in fact definitely what i needed to do and uh...
I just want to thank you for bringing me into this world and trying to do the best you can.
And I even want to thank you for giving me so much opposition because you really did and said a lot of nasty things to me.
But I'm so thankful because that made me even fight harder.
yeah, I said, you didn't realize it, but you did me a great favor because I'm really strong right now.
And so...
You did a great job.
You had a very important part to play.
You're a very highly principled person.
I'm glad you stuck up to your guns.
gave me the opposition I needed.
Now I'm super strong in what I did.
I made the right decision.
I was incredibly selfish.
I apologize for my selfishness, but there's times in life you need to be selfish.
And I find myself with many of my younger students.
And to their surprise, I'm encouraging them to be selfish.
And they can't believe it because
they're expecting me to tell them to be selfless and I say to know, there's plenty of to be selfless.
You know, we'll get to selflessness first.
Let's first, basically you've abandoned yourself and you've betrayed yourself so long.
Let's first be kind to yourself, get that together and then we'll talk about selflessness.
But you know, we only can talk about selflessness if we have a self to be less about.
Because if you don't have strong sense of yourself, how can you consciously be selfless?
Because what exactly are you dedicating?
What exactly are you sacrificing if you don't even have a hold on what that is?
So let's first give you a grasp of what your self is, and then we'll devote it to something.
So for you, you felt a calling inside of yourself?
to do what i'm doing with my life now uh...
you know although you know the call coming in was not that clear but you know it was like when these children's walkie-talkies you know uh...
you know i
It came from inside of you.
uh
you know uh...
i'm trying to go back and actually reach you know you're asking them trying to go back and recreate that in my people call it a calling you know and it kind of is a calling but that
kind of uh...
you know it's funny to think they away from a lot of these common expressions because i find that they mean different things to different people you know because they're on own
own subjective experience of those terms but i would say that what happened to me
is that I, when I was younger, I had an, when I was 19, I for the first time was conscious of my interest in finding out who I was and why I was here, things that normally people
don't think about at 19.
But they kind of...
I feel like a lot of 19 year olds think about that stuff.
you know what if they do by the time the twenty five there aren't something else because i think maybe you're right for nineteen year olds but i don't find that true for a lot of
people who are twenty five thirty i really don't need to you know maybe people you hang out with
High school and college are very introspective for a lot of people.
yeah and then people and that's age appropriate to i mean i i think i'm little bit i mean that the new twenty thirty two you meant to be a little bit outside yourself that's age
appropriate uh...
by that when i was very but in nineteen i mean i'd like to name it had been thinking about it but in nineteen i was reading the body to keep them uh...
panchayat in the buddhist teachings so i was already into this very
very sacred teachings at a very young age.
So you were thinking about it.
I know just thinking about it, was actually doing something about it already.
And as I said in other things, I think that's what got me into hallucinogens and those things when I was in my early twenties.
And then I'm into my mid twenties and now I'm really actively pursuing this and I'm hanging out at places where famous teachers are.
I'm reading the classics.
I'm more than thinking about it.
started to do something about it.
Started to do yoga and meditation in middle 70s before anybody was doing this stuff.
And then eventually I bumped into what I'm doing now.
and i was interested in code gets back to his whole calling thing i think the path that i'd landed up devoting myself to what happened a couple things happened first of all
actually again get to the competition had the other night before then i was largely compelled uh...
them a very intellectually oriented person so
I was largely impressed by spiritual teachings that related to my mind, the world of ideas.
So I'd be reading the teachings of the Buddha and very popular back then with the writings of like Alan Watts um and Ram Dass, Richard Albert, guy from Harvard.
uh...
you know those contemporary uh...
people uh...
you very very interested in this world of ideas and since so that kind of captured my interest in all these concepts about the meaning of life but it's not like i actually had
something that hit me in the side with two by four that i actually had an experience that was like life altering i had i for many years was in
allowed myself to enter into what I would call the world of new ideas that gave me a different perspective.
But just giving me a different perspective did not fundamentally change my life.
But when I started, when I was 25, practicing Kundalini Yoga taught by Yogi Bhajan, who had come from the East, for the first time I actually had profound life-altering
experiences.
that i had no frame of reference to and that was more compelling than anything that i ever read and in fact i almost lost my interest in reading about these things because all i
really wanted to do with experience these things that really shifted me and it shifted my my uh...
my relationship because before then i was mostly interested in you know
mind-altering ideas.
But then what happened is that things happened that I actually had life-changing experience.
That I had no idea what was happening, no explanation.
I experienced things that I actually didn't know existed.
It would be like you have five senses, so you know, everybody knows touch, sight, smell and all that.
and it's a year late to world and imagine if you like woke up one morning and somebody gave you like another sense that you didn't even know existed to you and other like you
know window into the world that you never had before and it's it's like shocking but now you have like another sense but very few other people have this sense and if you have the
sense in your town people hate i can experience the world through this other sense and they think you're crazy
But actually you're not crazy.
You do.
You have this experience.
So ah that's what happened with me.
I had this experience and then that kind of shifted me away from actually having any interest in believing in anything into just experiencing things.
And one thing my teacher told me that really I find myself repeating a lot.
And even at dinner it was amazing how many times I found myself saying it.
said the people at the dinner table the other night kept asking me, do you believe in this?
Do you believe in reincarnation?
Do you believe in life after death?
Do you believe in God?
And I kept saying them, no matter how many times they asked me the question, I kept saying to them, I don't believe in anything.
I just kept saying, I don't believe in anything.
And then they kept asking me because it's like it's so ingrained.
And I kept saying, they kept saying, I don't believe in God.
And I go, yes you do.
Because you just use the word.
I you believe that there's a guy in the sky with a cane and a long white beard and a gown, a white guy?
Yeah, well I don't believe that that guy exists either.
So we agree.
If that's what you think God is, I agree there's no God.
Okay, but maybe we actually do agree.
And so for me, the real shift for me was getting away from beliefs and getting into experience.
And my teacher always used to say, believe in what you've experienced.
Don't believe in what you haven't experienced.
I think that's a very reality-based faith.
know, faith, say faith, but you know, way of life.
Yes, so in our way of life, we wish to train ourselves so that we can experience the totality, right?
And then we'll believe what we've experienced.
So if I experience the totality of the universe and I experience the force behind it, I'll say, well, of course I believe in the existence of supreme consciousness because I've
experienced that myself.
Why wouldn't I believe that?
But if I've never experienced it, I'm not going to say that I believe it exists.
So this is a different way of looking at things.
you
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