WEBVTT

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This file was generated by Descript 

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Toby: Hello, welcome to whose web
agency is this Anyway, starring

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Kurt Van Onin and myself, Toby Kres.

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let's get right into it here.

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let's get right into it.

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Robert Devore asked a
really interesting question.

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He said, how do you choose
which ventures to pursue, pursue

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outside of the services work?

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If any.

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And then he said, for instance,
are you focusing time only

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on marketing the services?

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Are you packaging up the services
into different bite size chunks?

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Or are you building related products that
can be resold, like themes and plugins?

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How are you, diversifying your ventures?

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Kurt?

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Kurt: First off, I wanna acknowledge
Robert Devore and his genius.

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apparently he can just kick out, plugins
like butter I you, this guy, right?

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I'm, I'm not in the product space.

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I, I, I take that back.

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I am in the product space,
but not in that way.

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so a lot of what we do at Ana Nomas
is, let's say I work with a consultant.

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I do some needs assessment.

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I come up with a package
for that consultant.

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So I know that they're
gonna want A-C-R-M-A form

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tool, an appointment setter.

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Maybe they want an online, you
know, support, ticket program,

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maybe, And then maybe they want some
online courses for coaching, right?

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Maybe they want some private coaching
a like a lifter, LMS kind of package.

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So let's see.

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We do that needs assessment.

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We kind of make that shopping
list and then we, we build it, we

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configure it, and we make it work.

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Typically what I do at that point
is I take a snapshot of that

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website and it's set up and then.

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That becomes a productized service or
a productized item that we can sell

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to the next consultation company or to
the next thing, because realistically,

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the hard work was figuring out.

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Based on your use case, this is the
setup that we believe is gonna work

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best for you and your use case.

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So then when you come along, a customer
that has that similar thing, if you have

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created that as a blueprint, a snapshot,
a help me, they have a thing for that.

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They call, it's not, it would not
template tenancy, full tenancy sites.

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na: Mm-hmm.

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Kurt: multi-tenancy sites.

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It's like that concept.

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And so now the next consultant comes
along and they go, let me guess.

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You know you're gonna want a CRM, an
appointment tool or this or that, and

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they go, oh, that sounds wonderful.

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And I say, great, I'll see you on Friday
and we'll upload your logo, your headings,

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your content, we'll package your pictures
into these, into these placeholder

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spaces, and they're ready to go.

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And it's kind of like a cool quick
launch little package that I think

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the customer sees as being valuable.

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'cause it's quickly delivered, but we
don't have to remake the wheel each time.

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Toby: Mm-hmm.

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And you can potentially charge the
same amount, whatever, you know?

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well,

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Kurt: that's the weird part.

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Mm-hmm.

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So often you actually end
up charging more, right?

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Because you, because you're offering
it as a ready to go service, and

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you're able to put more of your
development time into customizing that

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user experience based on the content.

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And I think if we're honest, I
think the copy and the content in

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most cases is more important than
the actual structure and billing.

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Toby: Yeah.

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I always, the first question,
one of the first questions I

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always ask when, you know, leads
come in, I'm always like, what?

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Basically it's an iteration
of the question, like, how

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are you making money here?

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Like, do you wanna talk about
technology or making money?

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'cause they're not necessarily
connected, like, yeah.

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Kurt: it, it's interesting when, when I
read Robert's question, I instantly have

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like this, this negative feeling that
comes from it and it's, my specialty is

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in the membership and learning space.

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So everybody that's in this membership and
learning space makes this leap, this huge

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leap that they go well, and then how do
I convert this into a mobile application?

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And it's like you don't even
have a single paid user yet.

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Why are you thinking about a $30,000
investment to make a mobile application

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na: Uhhuh?

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Kurt: And why are we having
the, the conversation?

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Yeah.

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Like, I'm not your dude for this.

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Like, let's, let's, let's build
you a business first and then let's

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worry about the icing on the cake.

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Toby: Yeah.

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Kurt: One thing that, what you said,

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Toby: it's a, so Robert, it
it, it addresses Robert's

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question, but it's kind of like.

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A different way to address it, which
is like, you don't have to like,

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change your business to diversify
your business or to make more money.

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You can just do it differently,
like in a blueprinted way.

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Like, like do more work with
less time, charge the same or

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more, you know, build the, like.

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I always think the mighty Moe.

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what we're best at is
responding to emails.

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And answering the phone like, we're better
than anybody else I know in town at that.

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Yeah.

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And that's what I tell people who come in.

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I'm like, you know, we've been
doing it for 18 years, but like

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we're gonna respond to every email
you send within a business day.

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And they're all like,
oh, that sounds great.

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You know, like.

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Kurt: So, ano nomas, the catch
line to Ano Nomas underneath it

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says Getting it done yesterday.

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but it's got an asterisk in there 'cause
it means getting shit done yesterday.

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And I came from that frustration.

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It was, as a corporate
director, you know, in, in the.

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Corporate enterprise environment.

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I was the guy that had to call
agencies and be like, Hey, we need

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to make a change to the, to the
wording in that, in the heading.

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And they'd be like, well, we can
pencil in from Thursday after next.

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Right.

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And I'm like, we're just
gonna change three words.

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Mm-hmm.

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Well, you know, next Thursday after next,
so 14 days from now we'll be able to, and

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I was like, this doesn't make any sense.

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na: Mm-hmm.

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Kurt: I know it takes 10 seconds, so why?

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Why am I waiting 14 days?

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na: Yep.

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Kurt: And, and so we, at Ana Nomas,
we became very focused on we honor the

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budget and we honor the calendar, right?

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We've never gone up past our deadline
and we've never gone over budget

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and ask clients for more money.

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It's just, I mean, if they change the
scope of work, they change the scope

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of work, but it, it's to your point,
you know, answer the phone, answer

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the emails, be there for the client.

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and oddly enough, that is
really, really rare in our space.

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Yeah,

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Toby: and it's, I see it as like, you
know, for all y'all out there looking to

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make more money, do a better job of that.

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You'll keep people around
longer, sell more products.

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'cause the other thing I notice when I do
that, if I respond quickly, a lot of times

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I follow up with what else is going on.

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I.

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You know, just kind of an open-ended,
like what else is broken that I can

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fix and get paid to fix, you know,

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Kurt: that the, the upsell opportunity,
like, so I just said we've never asked

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people for more money unless they
change the scope of work, and that's.

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That's the key phrase.

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The sooner you correspond with
somebody, the sooner you answer their

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question, the, the sooner you have
the opportunity to say something like,

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well, that's really outside the scope
of the original project, but if you

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want me to bid that, we certainly can.

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And then it's like, boom,
it's, they become Lego blocks.

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You just start stacking, you know,
your, your revenue in that vertical

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because the customer trusts you.

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'cause you do what you
say you're gonna do.

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Toby: I think it, it's
particularly hard, for freelancers?

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Well, I'll just say when the times when
I've been like basically a solo operator

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or the person like managing all the work
and the invoices and doing a lot of the

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work, like, it's harder to, to do that,
to like take a step back, be like, first

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of all, I remember to ask, but what is
this, this thing you asked me to do?

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Yeah.

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I could do it in 10 seconds, so
maybe I'll do it for free, but like,

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Doesn't have to be done for free.

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And it's hard.

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The, the further step back I
get, the more I have like someone

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else asking that question.

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Like, the more money, you know,
it's like it changes the business.

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and I guess I just wanted to point that
out for freelancers, like there might

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be opportunities that you're just not
seeing because you're too deep in it.

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Kurt: there was a huge mental shift
for me from the freelancer mentality

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to the agency mentality, and it was
something that I think you could say

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it over and over and over and over
again, and it wouldn't make sense

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until you actually experienced it.

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But if I charged somebody $1,500 to
do something on a website and then I

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give it to somebody else in my network
to do that, well, that money's gone.

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Like, let's, like, so, so you have
to start thinking like from a, from a

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freelancer perspective, you're like,
yeah, I could do that and I could do it

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for 500 bucks and have it done by Friday.

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Right?

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But from an agency perspective,
you have to think to yourself, if I

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gotta pay somebody else 500 bucks to
have it done by Friday or Saturday.

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Or Monday, then I have to review the
work and then I have to, so that $500

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task becomes the 12 or $1,500 task.

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And I think a lot of freelancers miss an
opportunity because they could be billing

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at more of an agency rate, so that when
they're ready to expand, they already

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have the funding in place to handle it.

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Toby: Yeah.

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Or not, or they're going to the bank
every week and feeling great about it.

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I, I think there's, this weird
thing that it's exactly what

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you're talking about, but it's like
this, this mentality that happens.

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and I, I have these conversations
with freelancers here locally

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in Minneapolis and, running
very similar businesses to mine.

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But, but I run it more like an agency and
I just notice, like the way we talk about,

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it's a little bit, not you and I, but.

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When, when I have someone in that
freelancer mentality or mindset, they

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have this idea of what fairness is,
and it's a different idea than I have.

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Like it's, I, I try to be really
fair, really transparent and honest.

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And they're trying to be the
same thing, but their definition

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of it is way different.

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Usually involves like lower fees
as part of their like definition.

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I'm like, why is lower fees part
of a de definition of fairness?

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Like, you know,

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Kurt: well.

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The whole conversation of billing based
on hours is a very foreign conversation

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to me at this stage of the game
because, well, let's just face facts.

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If I'm in an enterprise,
lifter, LMS Build, I can build

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the structure of that website.

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You know, I, I should say minutes,
but let's just say I can do

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it in less than a day, right?

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Whereas the average freelancer that's
doing all kinds of piece work here,

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here, here, and here, they might
be on that thing for two weeks,

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three weeks, trying to figure out,
tick this box, don't tick that box.

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This integration goes here.

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This API code goes over there.

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But because it's a specialty of
mine, I can do it much more quickly.

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So does that mean I do it cheaper?

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'cause it takes me less time?

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No, it means.

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The value I'm bringing to the
table is exponentially greater.

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So that value is what you base
the billing on, not the hours.

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And I think that there's a lot of
freelancers that still get stuck in

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that trading hours for dollars thing,
not realizing that they're getting

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better and better at their craft.

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That doesn't mean they should
make less and less money.

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Yeah, usually getting
better makes you more money.

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Toby: Yeah.

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And I just filled out an RFP.

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It's pretty rare that I do RFPs.

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and I was, this was an existing
long-term client and so normally

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I wouldn't even do 'em for that.

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Like, it was just like an open call
for RFPs and I'm just like, ugh.

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but because of our history, I was
like, okay, I'm gonna go for it.

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And one thing they asked in there
was, what's your hourly rate?

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And I was like.

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I don't wanna even, like, this doesn't
even, I've never done hourly work for you.

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Why are we talking about hourly?

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Like, it's not even like, like I'd
rather bid it out based on Yeah.

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'cause what you're saying,
like, if it takes me an hour,

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what, who cares what it costs?

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Is it a fair rate to you or not?

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and that's the other thing about
like, this definition of, so

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let's say that's the other thing.

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Let's say, the rate is.

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there's some ethics to the rate and
that's kind of this, I've seen it time

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and again, particularly with freelancers.

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Yeah.

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I guess like, like everybody, you
could take that ethics to 10 different

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people and they're gonna give you a
different number for what fair is and

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Kurt: fair is always within
10 or $15 of your hourly rate.

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Anything more than that
in this highway robbery.

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Right, and anything less than that is
that person's given away their time and

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de and devaluing the, industry for all
of us, it it's that perception, right?

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It's like if you ask somebody, a salaried
employee, Hey, what, what's a reasonable

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salary for this type of position?

00:12:13.940 --> 00:12:17.240
They're gonna say somewhere in the range
of 20 or 30 grand of what they're making.

00:12:17.960 --> 00:12:18.380
Right.

00:12:18.470 --> 00:12:21.890
And then anything over that is highway
robbery and anything less than that,

00:12:21.890 --> 00:12:23.690
that person's devaluing the position.

00:12:24.060 --> 00:12:27.210
so we just have to recognize
that, you know, the, the money's,

00:12:27.210 --> 00:12:28.320
the money, the rate's, the rate.

00:12:28.710 --> 00:12:32.460
I try to charge things
based on the value provided.

00:12:32.760 --> 00:12:36.060
And so I generally work on a lot
of things that create revenue.

00:12:36.060 --> 00:12:37.080
So I think to myself.

00:12:37.605 --> 00:12:44.055
Does my client have a, a valid opportunity
to 10 x their investment with us?

00:12:44.115 --> 00:12:47.475
So if they spend 10 grand with us,
do they have the ability to convert

00:12:47.475 --> 00:12:48.885
this into a hundred thousand dollars?

00:12:49.155 --> 00:12:52.875
And if that answer is yes, I'm all in
like, like it's gonna be 10 grand, bro.

00:12:52.995 --> 00:12:56.445
And, and it all seems like a lot,
well, you could hire someone with

00:12:57.555 --> 00:13:00.165
less experience, could take a
little bit longer to get it done.

00:13:00.345 --> 00:13:01.815
I, you know.

00:13:02.865 --> 00:13:03.225
na: Mm-hmm.

00:13:03.465 --> 00:13:03.735
Kurt: Good luck.

00:13:04.320 --> 00:13:05.340
Toby: Yeah, great point.

00:13:05.960 --> 00:13:07.230
let's, next question here.

00:13:07.230 --> 00:13:11.480
Eric Kovic asks, how do you
think the new WordPress release

00:13:11.480 --> 00:13:13.130
schedule impact freelancers?

00:13:15.020 --> 00:13:16.250
Did I pronounce his name correctly?

00:13:16.280 --> 00:13:17.120
I might have messed it up.

00:13:17.210 --> 00:13:17.750
Kovac.

00:13:17.750 --> 00:13:18.410
Kurt: I, I'll go with that.

00:13:19.070 --> 00:13:19.700
Toby: Kirk Kovac.

00:13:19.850 --> 00:13:20.180
Kurt: Sorry.

00:13:20.180 --> 00:13:20.660
Toby: Eric

00:13:20.795 --> 00:13:21.115
Kurt: Kovac.

00:13:21.305 --> 00:13:22.115
Eric Kovac.

00:13:22.425 --> 00:13:22.915
Good guy.

00:13:23.015 --> 00:13:24.305
do you, do you want to answer first?

00:13:24.305 --> 00:13:26.645
'cause my answer's gonna be a,
maybe a little more contrarian.

00:13:27.110 --> 00:13:30.390
Toby: Oh, let's hear the, the
contrary view of, whatever, whatever

00:13:30.390 --> 00:13:31.560
the non contrary view view is.

00:13:32.250 --> 00:13:36.410
Kurt: Well, I, I, so people in
Slack groups and, you know, people

00:13:36.410 --> 00:13:39.320
that go to Word Camp and people
that just got back from press comp

00:13:39.320 --> 00:13:43.790
and, and, and those people, those
people care what WordPress is doing.

00:13:45.110 --> 00:13:50.300
For the first dozen years that Ana Nomas
was in business, I didn't even know

00:13:50.300 --> 00:13:52.130
there was a community to WordPress.

00:13:53.060 --> 00:13:58.190
And, and so I think in the grand
scheme of things, when we say how does

00:13:58.190 --> 00:14:00.270
this impact freelancers, it doesn't.

00:14:00.735 --> 00:14:01.995
They don't give a crud.

00:14:02.025 --> 00:14:06.675
Like nobody, I shouldn't say nobody,
but there's such a, a high percentage

00:14:06.675 --> 00:14:11.295
of people in our space that aren't
connected to our space that, you know,

00:14:11.295 --> 00:14:13.065
hopefully some of them find this podcast.

00:14:13.065 --> 00:14:16.125
Hopefully some of them go, oh my God, I
didn't even know there was a word Camp.

00:14:16.125 --> 00:14:16.635
What's a word?

00:14:16.635 --> 00:14:16.935
Camp?

00:14:17.465 --> 00:14:21.095
my first word camp was, word Camp
US San Diego three years ago.

00:14:21.650 --> 00:14:23.420
and after that, I became an addict.

00:14:23.480 --> 00:14:27.720
Like I started going to local word camps
and Zoom word camps and or, WordPress

00:14:27.720 --> 00:14:29.610
meetups and, and all kinds of stuff.

00:14:29.760 --> 00:14:33.540
But I think in general,
freelancers don't care.

00:14:33.750 --> 00:14:36.240
It doesn't matter when the next
thing is released, as long as I

00:14:36.240 --> 00:14:40.620
know that my client has a reasonably
updated version on their website.

00:14:41.130 --> 00:14:44.520
Toby: Yeah, and I think the old schedule
is what, quarterly and now it's annual.

00:14:44.520 --> 00:14:46.170
Is that kind of the idea?

00:14:46.170 --> 00:14:46.710
They're saying

00:14:46.710 --> 00:14:47.460
Kurt: annual now?

00:14:47.460 --> 00:14:47.730
Yeah.

00:14:47.730 --> 00:14:48.600
One, one.

00:14:49.045 --> 00:14:50.425
One major release a year.

00:14:50.665 --> 00:14:54.480
Toby: So here's how I, I, I agree
with everything you said, and

00:14:55.050 --> 00:14:57.450
in fact, it probably makes it
more, well, it's a couple things.

00:14:57.540 --> 00:15:01.020
A, it makes WordPress more stable
for US developers across the

00:15:01.020 --> 00:15:02.520
board, so that's a good thing.

00:15:02.610 --> 00:15:02.790
Yeah.

00:15:02.880 --> 00:15:07.230
On the downside, if you're charging
for maintenance, there's maybe less

00:15:07.230 --> 00:15:11.340
need or less perceived need for your
service, and that could be a downside.

00:15:11.750 --> 00:15:15.020
but I don't think, like,
well, I a, however, a.

00:15:15.845 --> 00:15:17.855
US developers are barely
thinking about it.

00:15:18.785 --> 00:15:19.835
Our clients,

00:15:20.910 --> 00:15:22.835
Kurt: like our clients don't even care.

00:15:23.045 --> 00:15:27.095
I, they don't, I can
remember it very vividly.

00:15:27.095 --> 00:15:30.215
I had a client that we were doing
some, some deep customization

00:15:30.215 --> 00:15:31.655
work in WooCommerce for them.

00:15:32.195 --> 00:15:33.445
And, this was the job.

00:15:33.475 --> 00:15:37.825
This was a job you sell and you wish
that you didn't like, like, you know, we.

00:15:38.800 --> 00:15:40.930
From an agency perspective,
I was like, why?

00:15:40.930 --> 00:15:42.340
Why do they want me to do this?

00:15:42.340 --> 00:15:45.520
Like, you don't, you don't have the
bandwidth, you don't have the users

00:15:45.520 --> 00:15:48.880
you're asking for every, they wanted
like Pixel perfect recreations from

00:15:48.880 --> 00:15:53.590
a Figma file to this WooCommerce
reimagined internet experience.

00:15:53.590 --> 00:15:54.850
And they're great people.

00:15:54.850 --> 00:15:56.050
I love the client.

00:15:56.050 --> 00:15:58.390
I just think what we were
doing was a little weird.

00:15:58.810 --> 00:16:01.060
And and I would tell 'em, I think
what you're doing is a little weird.

00:16:01.270 --> 00:16:02.230
But that's what they wanted.

00:16:02.230 --> 00:16:03.160
They were very resolute.

00:16:03.160 --> 00:16:04.060
This is what we want.

00:16:04.420 --> 00:16:09.360
And, As we were building that
out, that's when the whole WP

00:16:09.360 --> 00:16:11.010
Engine WooCommerce thing happened.

00:16:11.700 --> 00:16:15.920
And I got nervous 'cause they were on
WP Engine and so I, I finally asked

00:16:15.920 --> 00:16:19.130
him on a call, I said, Hey, have you
been getting emails from W WP Engine?

00:16:19.460 --> 00:16:22.730
And he goes, oh yeah, I see that
stuff, but the website works.

00:16:22.760 --> 00:16:26.060
Like as long as the website keeps
coming up, we really don't care.

00:16:26.450 --> 00:16:27.770
And I was like, okay.

00:16:28.200 --> 00:16:31.800
And I was like, so at the level that
this customer was having me do all

00:16:31.800 --> 00:16:34.560
this custom stuff, and I thought that
they were really, had their finger on

00:16:34.560 --> 00:16:37.230
the pulse of things, they didn't care.

00:16:37.440 --> 00:16:37.530
Yeah.

00:16:37.530 --> 00:16:42.030
You know, and, and so we think, we
think these horrible things because

00:16:42.030 --> 00:16:43.560
we're so close in the community.

00:16:43.680 --> 00:16:43.770
Mm-hmm.

00:16:44.010 --> 00:16:47.400
You know, with, with the WP Minute folks
and Matt Maderis and all these folks, we

00:16:47.400 --> 00:16:49.560
think, oh my goodness, the sky is falling.

00:16:49.560 --> 00:16:50.670
Matt had a bad morning.

00:16:50.670 --> 00:16:52.710
You know, or, or it's like, and then.

00:16:52.810 --> 00:16:54.760
in the reality of it, nobody cares.

00:16:54.880 --> 00:16:55.270
Right?

00:16:55.480 --> 00:16:57.670
Everyone's disconnected
and it doesn't matter.

00:16:57.730 --> 00:17:00.220
And you know what, it's
just Monday morning.

00:17:00.490 --> 00:17:00.700
Toby: Yeah.

00:17:00.700 --> 00:17:01.060
You know?

00:17:01.060 --> 00:17:05.490
And the other thing, like, you know
what, the only times our clients

00:17:05.820 --> 00:17:07.590
know or think there's a problem.

00:17:08.070 --> 00:17:09.810
Is when the sales aren't happening.

00:17:10.050 --> 00:17:11.310
And I don't even mean e-commerce.

00:17:11.310 --> 00:17:15.330
I mean like they run a lawyer
shop and they're like, oh,

00:17:15.600 --> 00:17:17.250
we, we need another client.

00:17:18.270 --> 00:17:19.980
Yeah, our, and they're like,
what's wrong with the website?

00:17:19.980 --> 00:17:22.290
But as soon as that client comes in,
they're like, we'll see you next year.

00:17:22.290 --> 00:17:22.620
Like,

00:17:24.180 --> 00:17:24.570
Kurt: yeah, that.

00:17:25.340 --> 00:17:30.100
I work a lot in the PowerPort space, and
so a lot of, web leads come in, right?

00:17:30.610 --> 00:17:35.470
And I can't tell you, so I should say I
train people in the PowerPort space, so I

00:17:35.470 --> 00:17:37.630
I'm not necessarily making their websites.

00:17:38.110 --> 00:17:42.280
And so part of the training is okay,
you need to have a hundred percent.

00:17:43.015 --> 00:17:43.825
Lead follow up.

00:17:43.825 --> 00:17:46.105
You need to be able to demonstrate
to me that you follow up with a

00:17:46.105 --> 00:17:47.185
hundred percent of your leads.

00:17:47.395 --> 00:17:50.575
You can do this by showing me a
screen capture or a report or whatever

00:17:50.575 --> 00:17:52.255
your CRM gives you for these leads.

00:17:53.035 --> 00:17:59.305
I gotta tell you, Toby, it's at least
75% of the time business owners with

00:17:59.305 --> 00:18:01.345
millions invested in their business.

00:18:01.345 --> 00:18:05.005
I'm not talking small shops,
millions invested in their business.

00:18:05.065 --> 00:18:07.375
They pull up a report and they
go, well, we haven't had any

00:18:07.375 --> 00:18:08.605
leads in like three months.

00:18:09.370 --> 00:18:09.670
Right.

00:18:09.820 --> 00:18:14.560
You know, through our website of like, so
you think your website's working right?

00:18:14.650 --> 00:18:16.510
Like, what else on your
website's not working?

00:18:16.750 --> 00:18:20.320
And then I do a website audit with them
and I go, you, I'm not your web guy.

00:18:20.380 --> 00:18:24.460
Like if, if you, you need to take this
back to who your contract is with.

00:18:24.460 --> 00:18:26.200
na: Mm-hmm.

00:18:26.201 --> 00:18:29.790
I think, I wish and, and think, and
I don't know, like I would rather

00:18:29.790 --> 00:18:34.710
be having those conversations
with, maybe it's just my, like.

00:18:34.790 --> 00:18:36.170
where I'm at as a human or whatever.

00:18:36.170 --> 00:18:39.140
Like I wish people would just call
and say, how can I make more money?

00:18:39.770 --> 00:18:43.370
I'd be like, okay, my expertise is
website and some marketing stuff.

00:18:43.370 --> 00:18:45.140
Let's talk about how we
can make you more money.

00:18:45.140 --> 00:18:48.200
And you know, it's like a very
different conversation than like

00:18:48.200 --> 00:18:52.430
them coming to me saying, build me
a website because I need more leads.

00:18:52.430 --> 00:18:53.300
Or you know, like,

00:18:53.330 --> 00:18:55.100
Kurt: yeah, well.

00:18:56.075 --> 00:18:58.985
And here's, here's a weird one,
and it's just, and I, and I

00:18:58.985 --> 00:19:01.235
talk about this a a lot, right?

00:19:03.995 --> 00:19:07.595
Your clients do, they ask for a
lot of like weird customizations

00:19:07.595 --> 00:19:10.115
or modifications that, and, and
in your mind you're like, I.

00:19:10.970 --> 00:19:13.400
Where, where did that request come from?

00:19:13.400 --> 00:19:17.990
Like what in your, what in your
UX experience makes you think

00:19:17.990 --> 00:19:20.990
that that's a requirement for your
website to make that more money?

00:19:20.990 --> 00:19:23.960
That, that, like what, where
did you get the idea that

00:19:23.960 --> 00:19:26.180
that's your conversion linchpin?

00:19:26.450 --> 00:19:26.870
Right.

00:19:26.970 --> 00:19:31.955
because I'm, I'm talking to clients
that if they were in Kajabi.

00:19:32.535 --> 00:19:33.795
They wouldn't have that option.

00:19:33.800 --> 00:19:33.850
Mm-hmm.

00:19:33.935 --> 00:19:35.985
If they were in Podia, they
wouldn't have that option.

00:19:35.985 --> 00:19:38.295
If they were in Shopify, they
wouldn't have that option.

00:19:38.535 --> 00:19:41.055
But because we're in WordPress and
we can do anything we want with

00:19:41.055 --> 00:19:46.125
WordPress, they're like, that needs
to be like a pink camouflage button.

00:19:46.335 --> 00:19:46.605
Right.

00:19:47.025 --> 00:19:48.345
And that, and that needs to be purple.

00:19:48.345 --> 00:19:50.415
And you're going, I, what are we doing?

00:19:50.445 --> 00:19:51.405
Toby: Yeah, we doing it

00:19:51.405 --> 00:19:52.185
Kurt: because we can.

00:19:52.680 --> 00:19:57.960
Toby: And, and WooCommerce is the worst
for this feature creep, ridiculousness.

00:19:57.960 --> 00:20:01.230
Like, you know, they, they
see the WI don't know.

00:20:01.260 --> 00:20:02.850
I don't know where they get
these ideas because I don't

00:20:02.850 --> 00:20:04.560
think they're on woocommerce.com.

00:20:04.560 --> 00:20:04.980
I think.

00:20:05.130 --> 00:20:06.600
I don't, but they're like, can we do this?

00:20:06.600 --> 00:20:07.380
Can we, I don't know.

00:20:07.380 --> 00:20:09.930
They're on Amazon and they're
on some, I saw this thing.

00:20:09.930 --> 00:20:10.590
Can we do this?

00:20:10.590 --> 00:20:12.210
I'm always like, slow down.

00:20:13.080 --> 00:20:14.100
Like, how about we like

00:20:14.730 --> 00:20:15.750
Kurt: sell something?

00:20:16.215 --> 00:20:20.085
Like, but then you search on
WooCommerce and they have an add-on

00:20:20.085 --> 00:20:21.855
for 1 99 a year that does just

00:20:21.855 --> 00:20:22.665
Toby: that, right?

00:20:22.725 --> 00:20:23.235
Oh yeah.

00:20:23.655 --> 00:20:23.925
Yeah.

00:20:23.925 --> 00:20:26.685
And well, and it's guaranteed to
break in three months when they

00:20:26.685 --> 00:20:28.125
up something updates, you know?

00:20:28.605 --> 00:20:32.955
Kurt: So when you get those requests
from an agency perspective, do

00:20:32.955 --> 00:20:35.745
you look at it like, Hey, here's
another income opportunity and

00:20:35.745 --> 00:20:37.425
another vertical for customization?

00:20:37.815 --> 00:20:38.715
Or do you.

00:20:39.210 --> 00:20:43.200
Put on your consultant hat and, and
be like that, that would cost you

00:20:43.200 --> 00:20:45.210
this much more to implement that.

00:20:45.270 --> 00:20:47.250
What's your reasoning and
is there something else we

00:20:47.250 --> 00:20:48.270
should do with that budget?

00:20:48.690 --> 00:20:52.780
Toby: Usually it's the latter actually,
and honestly, I feel some responsibility

00:20:52.780 --> 00:20:54.910
as like a guide through the wilderness.

00:20:54.910 --> 00:20:55.210
Yeah.

00:20:55.265 --> 00:20:59.405
I have friends who run very successful
agencies in town who don't they, and

00:20:59.565 --> 00:21:01.395
they just say, yes, we can do that.

00:21:02.055 --> 00:21:04.345
Thank you for asking,
here's what it's gonna cost.

00:21:04.345 --> 00:21:08.215
And I don't judge, like,
I'm just like, it's not me.

00:21:08.220 --> 00:21:12.265
I, I don't, I'd rather have the
conversation about the why and, but

00:21:12.865 --> 00:21:16.495
honestly, I go, if they're coming
to you asking, let's say it's a bad

00:21:16.495 --> 00:21:20.335
question, that's, and in reality what
it is, a lot of times a bad question.

00:21:21.055 --> 00:21:25.255
They're probably not coming, going
like, well, I, I need more money.

00:21:25.255 --> 00:21:26.425
What do you think I should do?

00:21:26.425 --> 00:21:27.775
I have this e-commerce shop.

00:21:27.775 --> 00:21:29.605
Instead they're like, I saw this feature.

00:21:29.605 --> 00:21:30.475
Build me this.

00:21:31.000 --> 00:21:33.940
And like one option is for you
to say, sure, I can build that.

00:21:34.060 --> 00:21:37.960
I know there's a WooCommerce extension
and it'll be X amount of dollars.

00:21:38.620 --> 00:21:43.150
but I will say like at a certain point,
if I'm feeling a lot of pushback, my

00:21:43.150 --> 00:21:44.800
answer just becomes, yes, I can do it.

00:21:45.340 --> 00:21:46.780
Sure, here's the cost.

00:21:47.170 --> 00:21:50.710
Like, and it usually, I know right away
if in the conversation if they're gonna

00:21:50.710 --> 00:21:53.950
like be open to the conversation or not.

00:21:55.870 --> 00:21:56.410
Kurt: How about you?

00:21:56.890 --> 00:21:58.030
Someone asked for something.

00:21:58.030 --> 00:21:58.300
Yeah.

00:21:58.305 --> 00:21:58.445
Mm-hmm.

00:21:58.445 --> 00:21:58.605
Yeah.

00:21:58.610 --> 00:22:00.340
I'm glad to hear that
we're on similar pages.

00:22:00.370 --> 00:22:00.460
Mm-hmm.

00:22:00.705 --> 00:22:05.710
I, I used to be in the, in the
framework of, well, if they asked

00:22:05.710 --> 00:22:08.710
for it, it must be important, so I'm
gonna do what I can to provide it.

00:22:09.280 --> 00:22:11.770
but over the years, I've
really begun to adopt this.

00:22:12.355 --> 00:22:13.015
They ask for it.

00:22:13.015 --> 00:22:14.215
That doesn't make it important.

00:22:14.755 --> 00:22:17.755
We need, we need to figure
out where this is coming from.

00:22:18.065 --> 00:22:20.255
'cause if I just say yes to
everything and I chase my tail

00:22:20.255 --> 00:22:26.315
around, I've found that what happens
is I might make more money upfront.

00:22:26.315 --> 00:22:26.375
I.

00:22:27.095 --> 00:22:30.215
But the relationship gets
damaged because six months later

00:22:30.215 --> 00:22:31.895
they go, I don't understand.

00:22:31.895 --> 00:22:35.015
We've done all this work and we've paid
you extra for extra things, and we're

00:22:35.015 --> 00:22:36.875
still not making money with this website.

00:22:36.935 --> 00:22:39.005
And then I gotta go
like, whoa, whoa, whoa.

00:22:39.065 --> 00:22:44.015
Like how do you think that this
website work equals like a return?

00:22:44.165 --> 00:22:44.645
Like Right.

00:22:44.855 --> 00:22:45.035
What?

00:22:45.035 --> 00:22:47.045
Like what have you done
that actually makes money?

00:22:47.495 --> 00:22:49.925
because of my experience
in the automotive industry.

00:22:50.405 --> 00:22:55.355
I'm very keenly aware of the, the
friends and family features, right?

00:22:55.475 --> 00:22:55.565
na: Mm-hmm.

00:22:55.835 --> 00:22:59.135
Kurt: if you wonder why car dealerships
always hire new salespeople, it's

00:22:59.135 --> 00:23:02.885
'cause new salespeople always come
in and sell 10 cars right away.

00:23:02.885 --> 00:23:02.945
I.

00:23:03.680 --> 00:23:06.110
And then they run out of friends
and family to buy new cars.

00:23:06.260 --> 00:23:06.530
Right.

00:23:06.590 --> 00:23:06.770
Uhhuh.

00:23:06.830 --> 00:23:08.390
And then the struggle starts.

00:23:08.720 --> 00:23:08.870
na: Mm-hmm.

00:23:09.110 --> 00:23:11.030
Kurt: And, and that's what you see
with a lot of membership and learning

00:23:11.030 --> 00:23:14.420
websites is, you know, you've got a
list of 20 or 25 people that are gonna

00:23:14.420 --> 00:23:18.770
support you and, and, and buy, you
know, an access plan even at a discount.

00:23:18.770 --> 00:23:21.590
But it gets some revenue going
and you get your hopes up.

00:23:21.890 --> 00:23:25.160
But if you don't market, if you
don't do anything, if you don't

00:23:25.160 --> 00:23:28.550
take any acti, if you don't join the
entrepreneur network in your town, or

00:23:28.610 --> 00:23:30.500
you know, if you don't do anything.

00:23:30.980 --> 00:23:34.370
The website doesn't feed itself,
you know, it needs to be fed.

00:23:34.670 --> 00:23:37.340
Toby: I also think people
get stuck in marketing.

00:23:37.520 --> 00:23:40.490
probably partly 'cause that's
like what our culture glamorizes

00:23:40.490 --> 00:23:43.850
like Mad Men and Instagram.

00:23:43.850 --> 00:23:46.310
Like it's all about
marketing and advertising.

00:23:46.670 --> 00:23:46.790
Yeah.

00:23:46.820 --> 00:23:49.520
But to me, like, I always
think like, start with sales.

00:23:50.210 --> 00:23:52.130
Go find someone to buy this.

00:23:52.730 --> 00:23:53.960
Don't leave until they buy it.

00:23:53.960 --> 00:23:57.890
That sort of like mentality like, Because
you really don't need a whole lot of

00:23:57.890 --> 00:24:00.590
marketing or advertising to do that.

00:24:01.190 --> 00:24:04.870
But that's like, to me, the hard part,
and this is like an example of features.

00:24:04.870 --> 00:24:08.290
People want automated sales processes.

00:24:08.530 --> 00:24:08.740
Yeah.

00:24:08.770 --> 00:24:10.840
Be it like an e-commerce
site or membership site.

00:24:11.080 --> 00:24:16.480
The Mighty MO has no automated sales
stuff and like it's, 'cause I just like.

00:24:17.410 --> 00:24:20.530
I don't think it's like an
infrastructure that's worth supporting.

00:24:20.620 --> 00:24:24.940
Like, like I'd rather like go out,
you know, like talk to someone,

00:24:24.940 --> 00:24:28.690
get their credit card, ring it
up on a re, you know, like done.

00:24:28.690 --> 00:24:29.200
Next one.

00:24:29.200 --> 00:24:29.560
You know,

00:24:30.250 --> 00:24:33.670
Kurt: I think we may mention
this on our original show.

00:24:34.810 --> 00:24:37.180
I think we did, but it's amazing.

00:24:38.245 --> 00:24:43.195
What people assume or believe is happening
at what they perceive to be larger or

00:24:43.195 --> 00:24:50.215
more experienced enterprises like I know,
because I know people in the space, they

00:24:50.215 --> 00:24:54.025
make these assumptions that the plugins
they sell are all automated and that

00:24:54.025 --> 00:24:57.475
the access is automated and that the
license key is automated and that all,

00:24:57.745 --> 00:25:02.605
you know, you can go from this package to
this package and it's automatically, you

00:25:02.605 --> 00:25:05.355
know, How they figure that like you paid
half the month and now half the month.

00:25:05.360 --> 00:25:05.420
Mm-hmm.

00:25:05.505 --> 00:25:07.215
And you know, prorations
and all these things, right?

00:25:07.995 --> 00:25:08.565
no.

00:25:08.715 --> 00:25:11.595
Like most cases that doesn't exist.

00:25:11.985 --> 00:25:15.435
But for some reason, people
that are new to the marketplace

00:25:15.495 --> 00:25:17.655
assume that all that is in place.

00:25:17.835 --> 00:25:18.045
na: Right?

00:25:18.045 --> 00:25:18.255
And,

00:25:18.255 --> 00:25:20.175
Kurt: and so they're like,
well, I must have that.

00:25:20.175 --> 00:25:20.830
And you're like, Uhhuh.

00:25:21.345 --> 00:25:24.345
I know people doing $2 million
a year that don't have that.

00:25:24.435 --> 00:25:24.555
Right?

00:25:24.915 --> 00:25:26.865
So why is this so important?

00:25:26.865 --> 00:25:28.815
Like, let's just get
you selling some stuff.

00:25:28.845 --> 00:25:29.355
Yeah.

00:25:29.405 --> 00:25:36.215
I remember back in the day, I met a
guy who started a separate, you know,

00:25:36.215 --> 00:25:38.135
I'm, I'm going to get a side gig going.

00:25:38.495 --> 00:25:44.975
And his side gig was selling training on,
Google Business, like Yelp ads, right?

00:25:45.095 --> 00:25:45.185
na: Mm-hmm.

00:25:45.755 --> 00:25:49.385
Kurt: Helping businesses,
Optimize their Yelp presence.

00:25:50.585 --> 00:25:53.345
Talk about like not, not technical.

00:25:53.660 --> 00:25:54.020
Right.

00:25:54.080 --> 00:25:58.280
He would, he would go to the business and
he's like, here's what we can do for you.

00:25:58.550 --> 00:25:58.970
Right?

00:25:59.390 --> 00:26:01.970
We'll take your pictures,
we'll change your blurbs.

00:26:01.970 --> 00:26:06.290
We'll optimize your, your heading and your
setting and we'll take care of answering

00:26:06.290 --> 00:26:08.030
comments for the first three months.

00:26:08.390 --> 00:26:12.590
And your startup for this is gonna be
like $4,000 or something like that.

00:26:12.620 --> 00:26:13.490
And it's amazing.

00:26:13.520 --> 00:26:16.580
'cause these businesses were
like, oh, well you need, you

00:26:16.580 --> 00:26:17.600
need to have a good Yelp.

00:26:17.800 --> 00:26:19.000
You know, yeah, we're grand.

00:26:19.300 --> 00:26:22.030
And it was, and he, and if he
was in a local region and he

00:26:22.030 --> 00:26:23.860
got a hundred people to do that.

00:26:24.605 --> 00:26:26.645
That turned into decent money, right?

00:26:26.735 --> 00:26:26.915
Mm-hmm.

00:26:27.365 --> 00:26:27.425
Yeah.

00:26:27.430 --> 00:26:30.845
And, and in the real, in the real
thing, like what you and I think

00:26:30.845 --> 00:26:32.765
of as, as work as an agency.

00:26:32.765 --> 00:26:34.175
So what was the real work?

00:26:34.685 --> 00:26:36.725
The work was the sales.

00:26:36.845 --> 00:26:37.235
Yes.

00:26:37.235 --> 00:26:40.265
The work was going door to door
and telling people what you would

00:26:40.265 --> 00:26:43.235
do and how much it would cost and
getting them to give you that check.

00:26:43.475 --> 00:26:43.895
na: Mm-hmm.

00:26:43.955 --> 00:26:45.635
Kurt: But the actual work.

00:26:45.775 --> 00:26:47.095
Was like, yeah.

00:26:47.095 --> 00:26:49.195
So I walk around the building,
I take a few pictures.

00:26:49.855 --> 00:26:50.005
Right.

00:26:50.485 --> 00:26:52.015
I put up a couple Google alerts.

00:26:52.495 --> 00:26:52.885
Yeah.

00:26:53.545 --> 00:26:55.285
Toby: When my alert pings, I respond.

00:26:55.465 --> 00:26:55.975
Yeah.

00:26:56.035 --> 00:26:59.245
Well, and the, you know, it's the
work when you can outsource it.

00:26:59.995 --> 00:27:03.715
You can't outsource sales as
easily as you can when Dev.

00:27:04.075 --> 00:27:04.405
Kurt: Yeah.

00:27:04.850 --> 00:27:05.300
Yeah.

00:27:05.750 --> 00:27:08.920
So, there, there's,
there's big chunks of that.

00:27:09.250 --> 00:27:12.220
I have projects, quite honestly,
that I think are awesome.

00:27:12.280 --> 00:27:16.780
I think they're awesome, but
their sales have not been high.

00:27:16.780 --> 00:27:20.230
And it's because the hard work is
the, the hard work is the selling.

00:27:20.740 --> 00:27:20.890
Toby: Mm-hmm.

00:27:21.580 --> 00:27:24.480
Well, and, and you could, extrapolate
this a bit with communities.

00:27:24.960 --> 00:27:27.180
The hard work of building
an online community isn't

00:27:27.180 --> 00:27:28.470
building the platform, right?

00:27:28.475 --> 00:27:28.535
No,

00:27:28.950 --> 00:27:29.070
Kurt: no.

00:27:29.070 --> 00:27:29.940
It's getting What's the hard work?

00:27:30.780 --> 00:27:31.110
Yeah.

00:27:31.560 --> 00:27:34.140
And a lot of people make this mistake.

00:27:34.170 --> 00:27:37.200
They'll, they assume, and this is
bad because I'm in this space, this

00:27:37.200 --> 00:27:38.325
is how I make someone my money.

00:27:38.745 --> 00:27:43.335
But people have a thriving Facebook page,
or they'll have a thriving LinkedIn group,

00:27:43.335 --> 00:27:46.905
or they'll have a thriving Instagram
following, and they make an assumption

00:27:47.295 --> 00:27:50.865
that, Hey, as soon as I promote my own
URL, everyone's just gonna come in there.

00:27:50.865 --> 00:27:52.665
I've got 80,000 people over here.

00:27:52.935 --> 00:27:57.225
So if I just charge a dollar a person,
I'm gonna have $80,000 a month coming into

00:27:57.225 --> 00:27:58.905
this thing, and they start doing this.

00:27:59.175 --> 00:28:01.785
This numbers game in their
head and getting optimistic.

00:28:01.845 --> 00:28:05.715
And what they fail to realize is
getting people to migrate from one

00:28:05.715 --> 00:28:09.465
channel to another is one of the
most painful things in the world.

00:28:09.855 --> 00:28:13.215
Facebook was censoring people like crazy
during the pandemic, and people were

00:28:13.215 --> 00:28:16.875
trying to get off of Facebook and just
migrate them over to a LinkedIn group.

00:28:17.355 --> 00:28:18.285
Nobody was going.

00:28:18.525 --> 00:28:19.065
Nobody.

00:28:19.545 --> 00:28:19.755
Toby: Mm-hmm.

00:28:19.756 --> 00:28:19.757
Yeah.

00:28:19.950 --> 00:28:21.250
You know what's interesting about that?

00:28:21.630 --> 00:28:23.910
So we have, we're in the
WordPress community, so we have

00:28:23.970 --> 00:28:25.080
different perspectives maybe.

00:28:25.080 --> 00:28:28.650
But like, why would you
leave Facebook for LinkedIn?

00:28:28.650 --> 00:28:30.376
Like, why, why would you, I want LinkedIn.

00:28:30.570 --> 00:28:32.940
Why wouldn't you be like,
I'm gonna self-host this.

00:28:32.940 --> 00:28:34.230
That way this'll never happen

00:28:34.230 --> 00:28:34.650
Kurt: again.

00:28:35.550 --> 00:28:37.860
Oh, well and that what, that
becomes part of that, right?

00:28:37.860 --> 00:28:42.060
So it's, if you can't get people to
go from Facebook to LinkedIn, then

00:28:42.060 --> 00:28:44.910
it's a really far stretch to think
they're gonna go to your personal URL.

00:28:45.210 --> 00:28:45.420
na: Mm-hmm.

00:28:45.900 --> 00:28:48.990
Kurt: To me, it's the same conversation
with the mobile application.

00:28:49.770 --> 00:28:49.800
I.

00:28:50.220 --> 00:28:57.090
I went to a motorcycle expo in Las
Vegas and I am a huge motorcycle nut.

00:28:57.480 --> 00:29:00.990
So I went to AIM Expo and I
was a, a speaker at the event.

00:29:00.990 --> 00:29:04.350
I was a paid speaker to speak there, but
when you got to the event, it said, oh,

00:29:04.350 --> 00:29:05.880
you gotta put this app in your phone.

00:29:06.195 --> 00:29:08.805
And you know, to know the speaker
schedule and where the vendor

00:29:08.805 --> 00:29:09.975
booths are and all these things.

00:29:09.975 --> 00:29:11.865
I'm like, I'm not putting
another app in my phone.

00:29:11.985 --> 00:29:15.825
No, it's stupid because then you're
gonna say, oh, you, you get access to my

00:29:15.825 --> 00:29:17.445
contacts and my pictures and my phone.

00:29:17.445 --> 00:29:18.015
Right, right.

00:29:18.015 --> 00:29:18.225
Yeah.

00:29:18.225 --> 00:29:21.075
Videos and my, forget this, I'm
not putting this crap in my phone.

00:29:21.105 --> 00:29:21.195
na: Mm-hmm.

00:29:21.795 --> 00:29:23.655
Kurt: But that's where
people are at nowadays.

00:29:23.685 --> 00:29:23.805
Mm-hmm.

00:29:24.165 --> 00:29:26.265
Like most people, like, I'm not
putting another app on my phone.

00:29:26.475 --> 00:29:26.715
Yep.

00:29:26.775 --> 00:29:30.885
So if you think your business won't
succeed without a mobile app, I need you

00:29:30.885 --> 00:29:33.255
to rethink what your business is then.

00:29:33.645 --> 00:29:34.695
Toby: Well, I think too, like.

00:29:35.040 --> 00:29:39.210
The whole idea that, and this is common
I think in my experience, is that like

00:29:39.210 --> 00:29:41.370
people assume the app is the solution.

00:29:42.060 --> 00:29:45.900
And like, just to reiterate what we've
been talking about, the solution is to

00:29:45.900 --> 00:29:48.780
sell more, not to build an app, whatever.

00:29:48.780 --> 00:29:50.310
It doesn't matter where the community is.

00:29:50.310 --> 00:29:51.750
You still gotta convince someone.

00:29:52.200 --> 00:29:55.440
I always think like get
'em to join for a dollar.

00:29:55.500 --> 00:29:57.390
It can be a dollar a month, whatever.

00:29:57.390 --> 00:29:59.760
But once you can get them to pay you once.

00:30:00.225 --> 00:30:03.105
You can get them to pay you again,
like the, at least that barrier to

00:30:03.105 --> 00:30:08.085
the second payment goes extremely far
down like where however tall it was.

00:30:08.085 --> 00:30:12.405
Now it's way further EAs way easier
once you get that $1 transaction.

00:30:12.410 --> 00:30:14.415
You, you just reminded me
of that guy from American

00:30:14.415 --> 00:30:15.615
Kurt: Pickers, the TV show.

00:30:15.975 --> 00:30:16.210
Toby: Oh, I,

00:30:16.215 --> 00:30:16.875
Kurt: I haven't seen that.

00:30:16.875 --> 00:30:17.625
What, what's the deal?

00:30:17.705 --> 00:30:19.235
two dudes, it's been around forever.

00:30:19.235 --> 00:30:21.755
Two dudes drive around the country
and they go and they, they look at

00:30:21.755 --> 00:30:25.295
like antiques or like junkyards,
and then he calls it, you know, oh,

00:30:25.295 --> 00:30:27.965
I gotta break the ice, you know,
so he says, Hey, how much for that

00:30:27.965 --> 00:30:29.615
rusty fender up there on the shelf?

00:30:29.615 --> 00:30:31.505
And the guy goes, well,
I hate to let it go.

00:30:31.505 --> 00:30:33.005
I could let it go for $50.

00:30:33.005 --> 00:30:33.320
He goes, mm-hmm.

00:30:33.485 --> 00:30:34.505
How about if I gave you 30?

00:30:34.505 --> 00:30:35.855
Would you take 30 for that fender?

00:30:36.005 --> 00:30:36.515
And he goes.

00:30:36.680 --> 00:30:38.300
Yeah, I'll take the 30 bucks, whatever.

00:30:38.360 --> 00:30:39.740
And then he goes, ah, I broke the ice.

00:30:39.920 --> 00:30:40.190
Yeah.

00:30:40.790 --> 00:30:41.630
Oh, that's great.

00:30:41.630 --> 00:30:44.060
Now he, because now he's looking
like, you know, for a motorcycle

00:30:44.060 --> 00:30:45.050
or for a car or whatever, right.

00:30:45.410 --> 00:30:45.470
Yeah.

00:30:45.590 --> 00:30:46.130
So, oh, that's

00:30:46.130 --> 00:30:46.610
Toby: funny.

00:30:46.780 --> 00:30:48.850
what do you do when
you're feeling burned out?

00:30:48.970 --> 00:30:49.600
Busy.

00:30:49.690 --> 00:30:51.880
And the burnout's probably
too broad a term, but like,

00:30:52.270 --> 00:30:53.770
I had a long, I have a lot.

00:30:53.770 --> 00:30:55.120
I just moved my house.

00:30:55.600 --> 00:30:58.930
I have like a stack of boxes over
here that's a mile high and I'm

00:30:59.350 --> 00:31:01.240
feeling anxious the moment I wake up.

00:31:01.300 --> 00:31:07.000
And so like, how do you, and you can
imagine, let's say you're run, trying

00:31:07.000 --> 00:31:08.800
to make a go of being a freelancer.

00:31:08.800 --> 00:31:11.620
Maybe you've been doing it a year and
you're like, Ugh, I need more money.

00:31:11.650 --> 00:31:16.480
Like, like how do you manage
that expectation internally and

00:31:16.960 --> 00:31:18.370
how do you, what do you, yeah.

00:31:18.370 --> 00:31:19.780
What do you, how do you manage that like.

00:31:21.880 --> 00:31:23.290
Kurt: It took me a long time.

00:31:23.290 --> 00:31:24.400
Toby, that's a good question.

00:31:24.400 --> 00:31:25.750
It took me a long time to get over it.

00:31:25.750 --> 00:31:27.760
'cause I used to think more hours.

00:31:27.760 --> 00:31:28.330
More hours.

00:31:28.330 --> 00:31:28.840
More hours.

00:31:28.840 --> 00:31:28.990
Right?

00:31:28.990 --> 00:31:32.470
I used to think, oh, if I just, I just put
in more time, I'm gonna get more money.

00:31:32.920 --> 00:31:36.430
and it wasn't until fairly recent
and, you know, late in life that I

00:31:36.430 --> 00:31:38.200
realized that's not the equation.

00:31:38.230 --> 00:31:39.400
That's not how it works.

00:31:39.880 --> 00:31:44.080
And so, I used to work in the
car biz 13, 14 hours a day,

00:31:44.080 --> 00:31:45.730
standing on concrete selling.

00:31:45.760 --> 00:31:49.150
So I got that really hard work
ethic kind of ingrained into me.

00:31:49.240 --> 00:31:53.320
And then in this space, that's
not how this works at all.

00:31:53.800 --> 00:31:58.000
So if I find myself burnt out, stressed
out, staring at the computer and

00:31:58.000 --> 00:32:01.420
nothing's happening, those moments,
if it's a nice day, I'll just put

00:32:01.420 --> 00:32:04.690
on a pair of padded shorts and go
out and and do a 30 mile bike ride.

00:32:05.605 --> 00:32:09.835
If I do that physical something
physical, something removed,

00:32:10.315 --> 00:32:11.875
it recharges me mentally.

00:32:11.875 --> 00:32:15.685
So then when I come back, you know, we
had talked earlier in the show, right?

00:32:15.685 --> 00:32:18.475
So sometimes there's things that
might take someone else a week to do.

00:32:18.475 --> 00:32:21.415
I can knock it out in an afternoon
'cause it's in my sweet spot.

00:32:21.985 --> 00:32:24.265
And so just like the
book Strength Finders.

00:32:24.430 --> 00:32:26.020
You know, I double down on my strengths.

00:32:26.020 --> 00:32:28.780
I go out, I bicycle, I come
back, I'm mentally centered.

00:32:29.170 --> 00:32:34.150
I hit that keyboard and knock out a week's
worth of work in an afternoon and go, man,

00:32:34.150 --> 00:32:36.130
I should go bicycling more often, right?

00:32:36.370 --> 00:32:36.700
Mm-hmm.

00:32:36.970 --> 00:32:40.390
sometimes you look at your
schedule and you see meetings.

00:32:40.420 --> 00:32:44.950
I just had a conversation with a, I'm on
a board of directors, kind of an advisor's

00:32:44.950 --> 00:32:50.250
board, and we are meeting today and I
was very direct and surprisingly others

00:32:50.250 --> 00:32:52.140
were on the call that was like, look.

00:32:53.010 --> 00:32:55.440
Time is getting very valuable, right?

00:32:55.560 --> 00:32:59.820
So either 'cause I like to add value
to others where I can, I wouldn't do

00:32:59.820 --> 00:33:01.170
shows like this if I didn't, right?

00:33:01.170 --> 00:33:04.500
So am I, am I adding a lot
of value to other people?

00:33:04.830 --> 00:33:08.220
Are other people adding a ton of
value to me that I just can't miss?

00:33:08.580 --> 00:33:11.850
Or is it putting a bunch of
money in my bank account?

00:33:12.570 --> 00:33:15.690
And if it's not one of those
three things, it needs to go.

00:33:16.020 --> 00:33:19.790
And so I was doing the, I don't know if
you wanna call it the Gary Vaynerchuk

00:33:19.790 --> 00:33:23.660
kind of thing, but I was making
appointments with people and giving away

00:33:23.660 --> 00:33:27.740
time and give away the best for free
and all that work will come in and maybe

00:33:27.740 --> 00:33:29.240
that's a great way to get launched.

00:33:29.240 --> 00:33:29.300
I.

00:33:29.585 --> 00:33:33.635
But if you've already been launched
and now your time is, is, has grown

00:33:33.635 --> 00:33:37.115
in that value category, you can't
keep giving it away like that.

00:33:37.115 --> 00:33:40.355
So you're either doing something
'cause you really enjoy adding

00:33:40.355 --> 00:33:44.195
value to that other person, or that
person's adding extraordinary value

00:33:44.195 --> 00:33:45.905
to you or you're making money.

00:33:46.025 --> 00:33:48.005
It's gotta be one of those
three things or it's gotta go

00:33:48.725 --> 00:33:48.935
Toby: that.

00:33:48.935 --> 00:33:49.835
I like that a lot.

00:33:49.915 --> 00:33:53.875
I was having a conversation with a
friend of mine who is a brilliant coder.

00:33:53.995 --> 00:33:57.005
Like, in person, just
like, just really nice guy.

00:33:57.410 --> 00:33:59.270
Can't find a job for whatever reason.

00:33:59.270 --> 00:33:59.330
Yeah.

00:33:59.390 --> 00:34:00.530
But brilliant.

00:34:00.960 --> 00:34:01.950
a great coder, you know?

00:34:01.990 --> 00:34:04.780
anyway, we're conversing and he's like,
yeah, I just had a meeting, with a

00:34:04.780 --> 00:34:08.560
guy who's building a business in town
and we spent, to me it sounded like

00:34:08.560 --> 00:34:12.250
he spent more than an hour at a coffee
shop giving the best information.

00:34:12.340 --> 00:34:14.830
Like Yeah, like you're saying,
like the vanerchuk thing.

00:34:15.220 --> 00:34:18.370
and I told him, and he's, he
comes from more, he, he worked at

00:34:18.370 --> 00:34:21.880
an agency for the last 15 years
or whatever, and I think like.

00:34:22.435 --> 00:34:25.075
For him and I, this is what I was
trying to share with him that I

00:34:25.075 --> 00:34:28.675
don't know how successful I was,
but I was like that next meeting you

00:34:28.675 --> 00:34:30.625
have, he needs to pay you five grand.

00:34:31.045 --> 00:34:33.295
Not for the meeting, but
you have to have a contract.

00:34:33.595 --> 00:34:33.655
Yeah.

00:34:33.655 --> 00:34:36.085
Worth at least five grand
to take the next meeting.

00:34:36.595 --> 00:34:38.815
And you can have a quick
phone call and sort that out.

00:34:38.815 --> 00:34:43.585
But like, I think that's very foreign to
a lot of people who are getting started

00:34:43.945 --> 00:34:45.625
in the agency and freelancing world.

00:34:45.625 --> 00:34:45.895
Like

00:34:46.165 --> 00:34:46.435
Kurt: Yeah.

00:34:46.735 --> 00:34:47.365
Toby: That like.

00:34:47.410 --> 00:34:47.470
Yeah.

00:34:48.060 --> 00:34:51.780
it's o like, it's okay to give a
little bit away, but like at some

00:34:51.780 --> 00:34:54.120
point you gotta ask for real money.

00:34:54.450 --> 00:34:56.580
Yeah, exactly.

00:34:56.820 --> 00:35:00.240
Kurt: And, and I think about how
many people did I give my best to?

00:35:00.900 --> 00:35:03.030
Over and over and over.

00:35:03.030 --> 00:35:05.850
'cause 'cause when you're
young, when you're a freelancer,

00:35:05.850 --> 00:35:06.750
you're just getting started.

00:35:06.750 --> 00:35:09.960
And when I say young, maybe you left
corporate and you started your own thing,

00:35:09.960 --> 00:35:13.140
but you're 60 years old, you still,
you still, you're young in the space.

00:35:13.290 --> 00:35:13.410
na: Mm-hmm.

00:35:13.860 --> 00:35:16.800
Kurt: And so you're like, well, if
I just keep adding enough value,

00:35:16.800 --> 00:35:19.620
sooner or later they'll see the
value and they'll offer me something.

00:35:19.680 --> 00:35:19.830
Mm-hmm.

00:35:20.070 --> 00:35:22.110
They're not, they're not
gonna make an offer unless you

00:35:22.110 --> 00:35:23.400
tell 'em what the value is.

00:35:23.640 --> 00:35:23.970
Yep.

00:35:24.510 --> 00:35:25.110
There's a thing.

00:35:25.140 --> 00:35:26.655
Toby: this is, that's why on YouTube.

00:35:27.540 --> 00:35:29.730
You hear over and over
again like, and subscribe.

00:35:29.730 --> 00:35:30.360
Like, and subscribe.

00:35:30.360 --> 00:35:31.200
And you're like, I've heard it.

00:35:31.380 --> 00:35:33.360
But if they don't ask,
people, don't do it.

00:35:33.780 --> 00:35:34.080
na: Yep.

00:35:34.410 --> 00:35:38.370
Toby: Like, you gotta ask, I guess maybe
that's the lesson, ask for the money

00:35:38.430 --> 00:35:41.100
and I would say ask before the first co.

00:35:41.160 --> 00:35:41.910
Before the first.

00:35:41.940 --> 00:35:42.270
Definitely.

00:35:42.270 --> 00:35:43.560
Before the first in person.

00:35:44.130 --> 00:35:45.540
and, and that's another thing, like I go.

00:35:46.170 --> 00:35:49.620
Let's see if you can get 'em on the hook
for one hour at your hourly rate because

00:35:49.680 --> 00:35:51.420
they've given you your, their credit card.

00:35:51.450 --> 00:35:55.620
It, that next sale is way easier once
you have their credit card and you've

00:35:55.620 --> 00:35:56.370
Kurt: billed them for that.

00:35:56.370 --> 00:36:01.680
You know, when, when I was the publication
and, and training manager at Suzuki, I

00:36:01.680 --> 00:36:04.950
had a guy that worked for me and, and
I, I would consider us friends now.

00:36:04.950 --> 00:36:05.775
His name's Bill.

00:36:06.415 --> 00:36:09.175
But when I, when I first started
working there, he annoyed the live

00:36:09.175 --> 00:36:10.225
in Crut outta me all the time.

00:36:10.225 --> 00:36:12.475
'cause whenever we would,
whenever I'd say, oh, here's

00:36:12.475 --> 00:36:13.765
a new task that we have to do.

00:36:13.765 --> 00:36:16.315
He'd say, well, I'm gonna want
this, this, this, this, and this.

00:36:16.315 --> 00:36:16.525
You know?

00:36:16.525 --> 00:36:17.215
And I'd be like, why?

00:36:17.215 --> 00:36:17.515
Why?

00:36:17.545 --> 00:36:20.485
How come every time I give you something
to do, you're asking me for something

00:36:20.935 --> 00:36:23.335
like, you're supposed to work for me?

00:36:23.335 --> 00:36:26.245
And he would just go, well, if you
don't ask for cake, you don't get cake.

00:36:26.850 --> 00:36:28.740
And I was like, ah.

00:36:29.760 --> 00:36:33.210
But after like six months of that,
it got to be where like, like he

00:36:33.210 --> 00:36:34.440
would start asking, I'd go, whatever.

00:36:34.500 --> 00:36:35.730
How much cake do you need for this?

00:36:36.330 --> 00:36:37.890
You know, how much cake
do you need for this?

00:36:37.890 --> 00:36:39.570
But he would say, if you don't
ask for cake, you don't get cake.

00:36:39.870 --> 00:36:40.320
Yeah.

00:36:40.440 --> 00:36:41.040
Toby: Yeah.

00:36:41.790 --> 00:36:42.360
And yeah.

00:36:42.360 --> 00:36:45.180
And I think like, well, so yeah.

00:36:45.180 --> 00:36:48.510
And that's the thing, like you don't
know if somebody has cake to give you

00:36:48.510 --> 00:36:50.190
until you ask for their credit card.

00:36:50.400 --> 00:36:51.690
Like as a freelancer.

00:36:52.020 --> 00:36:52.470
Kurt: Yeah.

00:36:53.035 --> 00:36:53.255
And.

00:36:53.910 --> 00:37:01.260
As a freelancer, I was really surprised at
how many people I donated my time to that

00:37:01.410 --> 00:37:06.210
didn't have the funding, didn't have the,
the methodology to get to the funding.

00:37:06.630 --> 00:37:08.700
They were, they were more lost than I was.

00:37:08.700 --> 00:37:12.120
But there I was in good faith trying to
give them this, this good information.

00:37:12.570 --> 00:37:15.390
And then I, I realized
if I'm gonna do that.

00:37:15.750 --> 00:37:18.330
It can't be in a one-to-one
scenario anymore.

00:37:18.330 --> 00:37:20.580
It needs to be in a one-to-many situation.

00:37:20.790 --> 00:37:24.510
So it needs to be in a podcast environment
or a mastermind or something like

00:37:24.510 --> 00:37:29.370
that where the chances of somebody
coming with funding or ability

00:37:29.370 --> 00:37:31.320
is, is higher to be in that group.

00:37:31.320 --> 00:37:35.700
But if you're doing everything one-to-one,
it's very, very difficult to get your

00:37:35.700 --> 00:37:40.170
hooks into something and, and turn
something into a success because, And,

00:37:40.170 --> 00:37:41.910
and we don't know who our audience is yet.

00:37:41.910 --> 00:37:43.770
This is just our second episode, right?

00:37:43.830 --> 00:37:43.920
Mm-hmm.

00:37:44.160 --> 00:37:46.950
So I don't know what, I don't know
who needs to hear this magic, right?

00:37:46.950 --> 00:37:46.951
Right.

00:37:47.250 --> 00:37:49.410
But it really is like,
sales is a numbers game.

00:37:49.410 --> 00:37:53.130
Uhhuh, you're gonna have to try
with so many people before you

00:37:53.130 --> 00:37:55.020
get any kind of positives back.

00:37:55.140 --> 00:37:55.260
na: Mm-hmm.

00:37:55.500 --> 00:37:55.650
And

00:37:55.650 --> 00:37:59.280
Kurt: so if you limit yourself
consistently to a one-to-one thing as

00:37:59.280 --> 00:38:03.360
opposed to a one to many, you're gonna end
up missing out on a lot of opportunities.

00:38:03.510 --> 00:38:03.810
Toby: Yeah.

00:38:03.870 --> 00:38:07.950
One thing, you know, I think for many
years, even when I started, Sale.

00:38:07.950 --> 00:38:10.290
I, I did not like sales.

00:38:10.770 --> 00:38:13.200
Like I was very like, it's gross.

00:38:13.200 --> 00:38:15.180
It's like unethical, whatever.

00:38:15.180 --> 00:38:19.620
You know, like every sleazeball idea that
our culture kind of associates with sales.

00:38:19.620 --> 00:38:23.520
'cause like every stupid comedy
has some sleazy sales guy in it.

00:38:23.520 --> 00:38:28.470
And it's become, like, for me it was
like, yeah, hey, I'll call you tomorrow.

00:38:29.580 --> 00:38:33.930
but once I got over that and it took
years, I started reading books about

00:38:33.930 --> 00:38:38.730
sales and it's a science and an art,
like everything, and I really enjoy

00:38:38.730 --> 00:38:40.590
sales now, like, and it's just me.

00:38:40.590 --> 00:38:43.620
It's not like I'm reporting sales
figures to the boss, but like if

00:38:43.620 --> 00:38:48.180
I can get someone on the phone and
close it, I'm like, yes, I closed it.

00:38:48.390 --> 00:38:51.690
And like I get excited anytime
I get a cold call or like, we'll

00:38:51.690 --> 00:38:54.060
call it a warm call, but someone's
like, Hey, do you do WordPress?

00:38:54.690 --> 00:38:55.590
I love it.

00:38:55.590 --> 00:38:58.860
'cause for me it's like this
internal competition to like close

00:38:58.860 --> 00:39:00.180
it and I'll, I will close it.

00:39:00.390 --> 00:39:01.950
Pretty much any reasonable number,

00:39:02.310 --> 00:39:02.460
Kurt: you know.

00:39:02.970 --> 00:39:03.930
That's hilarious.

00:39:04.350 --> 00:39:09.210
When we were at, when we were at that
word camp in San Diego, I had just done

00:39:09.210 --> 00:39:11.430
some sales training and, and one of those.

00:39:11.950 --> 00:39:15.880
one of those catchphrases from the sales
training was, Hey, I don't know if this

00:39:15.880 --> 00:39:19.630
is for you or not, but hey, just for
fun, why don't you try this real quick?

00:39:19.840 --> 00:39:20.020
Right?

00:39:20.020 --> 00:39:20.080
Yeah.

00:39:20.440 --> 00:39:22.240
And so, so it's like that disarming thing.

00:39:22.240 --> 00:39:22.810
Love it.

00:39:23.110 --> 00:39:25.570
So Lifter had these
cards to give out, right?

00:39:25.570 --> 00:39:28.300
Like, so you could try get your own
demo site or something like that, Uhhuh.

00:39:28.600 --> 00:39:32.730
And so, Yeah, all of us were at the
table and somebody came by and I, and I

00:39:32.730 --> 00:39:35.760
just said, Hey, I don't know if this is
for you or not, but it, Hey, just for

00:39:35.760 --> 00:39:39.240
fun, why don't you take this card, try
a demo site, see if you like it or not.

00:39:39.330 --> 00:39:40.860
And the guy's like, oh, thanks so much.

00:39:40.860 --> 00:39:42.120
It's great off you went.

00:39:42.120 --> 00:39:42.450
Right?

00:39:42.900 --> 00:39:48.330
And, and, Chris and Tom and, and, Emily,
they, they were all like, what was that

00:39:48.335 --> 00:39:50.400
like, like Uhhuh, what just happened?

00:39:50.640 --> 00:39:52.050
I go, oh, I'll do it again.

00:39:52.050 --> 00:39:52.470
Watch.

00:39:53.760 --> 00:39:54.000
Yeah.

00:39:54.000 --> 00:39:54.001
Right.

00:39:54.001 --> 00:39:54.002
Yeah.

00:39:54.540 --> 00:39:56.250
It again, and the same response.

00:39:56.250 --> 00:39:57.690
And they were like, how?

00:39:58.155 --> 00:40:00.045
We've been standing here and no
one's taking the cards and now

00:40:00.045 --> 00:40:01.125
you're just, everyone's coming.

00:40:01.185 --> 00:40:01.515
Right.

00:40:01.515 --> 00:40:03.345
I go, let's do it a third time.

00:40:03.435 --> 00:40:03.525
na: Mm-hmm.

00:40:03.855 --> 00:40:07.095
Kurt: And so that became our
thing for the whole Word Camp.

00:40:07.155 --> 00:40:10.545
And so the after hours parties, I
mean, it became like a contest to see

00:40:10.545 --> 00:40:11.565
who could give out the most amount.

00:40:11.565 --> 00:40:11.895
Yeah.

00:40:12.315 --> 00:40:13.725
We had so much fun.

00:40:14.085 --> 00:40:14.865
So much fun.

00:40:15.855 --> 00:40:17.565
But sales works if you make it fun.

00:40:17.895 --> 00:40:18.435
Toby: Yeah.

00:40:18.675 --> 00:40:19.005
Yeah.

00:40:19.005 --> 00:40:21.435
And and, and it's the only
way to make it, I don't know.

00:40:21.435 --> 00:40:23.775
I guess there's other ways, but like,
if you're a freelancer and you're trying

00:40:23.775 --> 00:40:25.125
to avoid sales, you're gonna have.

00:40:25.950 --> 00:40:27.480
I think it's a hurdle
you need to get over.

00:40:28.515 --> 00:40:30.855
Kurt: So we're gonna come up on time soon.

00:40:30.855 --> 00:40:31.095
Mm-hmm.

00:40:31.175 --> 00:40:33.535
So I want to ask what I think is
an important question for mm-hmm.

00:40:33.620 --> 00:40:40.350
For people that are listening you, I've
been around, you've been around, so how

00:40:40.350 --> 00:40:44.460
much of your week, what percentage of
your week is spent on sales and marketing?

00:40:45.990 --> 00:40:46.140
At

00:40:46.140 --> 00:40:48.780
Toby: least half of my work hours.

00:40:48.810 --> 00:40:49.110
Yep.

00:40:49.740 --> 00:40:49.980
Yeah.

00:40:50.060 --> 00:40:53.390
I'm just thinking, I do a lot of
project management, so I even have

00:40:53.390 --> 00:40:55.610
a project manager who is fantastic.

00:40:55.610 --> 00:40:57.050
I don't think there's
a better one out there.

00:40:57.260 --> 00:41:00.980
I've seen a lot of project managers and
she's right up there with the great ones.

00:41:00.980 --> 00:41:07.490
And even with that, she's managing
90% of the client communication.

00:41:08.520 --> 00:41:10.355
almost all the project management.

00:41:10.595 --> 00:41:15.845
I still invest a lot of time just
making sure, like I'll do some qa like.

00:41:16.175 --> 00:41:19.485
Yeah, like, like, I'll be like, so
Julie and I are my project manager.

00:41:19.485 --> 00:41:23.175
We meet twice a week for an hour at
6:00 AM on Tuesdays and Thursdays.

00:41:23.565 --> 00:41:27.765
so there's that, but then there's like,
I'm just queuing the work because she

00:41:27.765 --> 00:41:31.215
started in January and we have other
teammates who started since then.

00:41:31.665 --> 00:41:36.405
And I, I just wanna make sure
that like the designs are up to my

00:41:36.405 --> 00:41:39.495
standards or whatever, you know,
like the code's up to my standards.

00:41:39.495 --> 00:41:45.155
And, for example, like, we had, we
had one of our teammates delivered

00:41:46.055 --> 00:41:48.455
Afin, you know, we said, here's
the description, do the work.

00:41:48.455 --> 00:41:49.175
She did the work.

00:41:49.625 --> 00:41:51.725
and it wasn't what I had in mind.

00:41:51.935 --> 00:41:53.735
And it wasn't just like
an artistic vision.

00:41:53.735 --> 00:41:57.725
It was like, this just isn't
good enough, whatever that means.

00:41:57.725 --> 00:41:58.745
I couldn't put my finger on it.

00:41:58.775 --> 00:42:03.245
So we then we told the client, we're like,
we, this is what we built isn't up to

00:42:03.245 --> 00:42:04.625
our standards, so we're gonna rebuild it.

00:42:04.685 --> 00:42:07.545
And, then we put another developer
on it and they nailed it.

00:42:07.995 --> 00:42:10.455
And so that's an example
of project management.

00:42:10.455 --> 00:42:10.635
Yeah.

00:42:10.635 --> 00:42:16.245
But then sales, I mean, 25% marketing
and sales and you know, probably

00:42:16.245 --> 00:42:19.455
only 5% sales, but I would love
to do a hundred percent sales.

00:42:19.455 --> 00:42:19.755
Like,

00:42:20.595 --> 00:42:20.985
na: yeah, there was

00:42:20.985 --> 00:42:24.105
Toby: a, I saw a job come up
somewhere on a job board, and

00:42:24.105 --> 00:42:25.515
it was for a WordPress agency.

00:42:25.515 --> 00:42:26.505
They needed a sales guy.

00:42:26.505 --> 00:42:28.725
I was like, I would love to do that job.

00:42:28.755 --> 00:42:31.635
Like that job sounded fantastic to me.

00:42:31.785 --> 00:42:32.655
But how about you, Kurt?

00:42:32.685 --> 00:42:32.865
What?

00:42:32.895 --> 00:42:33.975
What's your percentage?

00:42:33.975 --> 00:42:35.085
Marketing and sales.

00:42:36.060 --> 00:42:37.320
Kurt: Marketing and sales.

00:42:37.320 --> 00:42:39.660
I'm 65, 70%

00:42:39.750 --> 00:42:39.840
na: mm-hmm.

00:42:40.470 --> 00:42:41.640
Kurt: Marketing and sales.

00:42:42.060 --> 00:42:46.080
And I think what's really interesting,
because we're, we're having like a, you

00:42:46.080 --> 00:42:48.270
know, whose agency is this anyway, right?

00:42:48.270 --> 00:42:52.200
And, and, and then, but then talking
to freelancers at the same time,

00:42:52.710 --> 00:42:57.840
there are certain clients I have
where technically I'm the freelancer.

00:42:57.840 --> 00:43:00.810
I'm not even operating as
Manana, NOMAS with that person.

00:43:01.230 --> 00:43:01.740
So.

00:43:02.055 --> 00:43:05.655
I have two different clients where I
would consider myself the freelancer.

00:43:05.655 --> 00:43:09.045
And so I'm not billing that
workout at agency rates.

00:43:09.105 --> 00:43:10.875
I'm now, I'm the hourly.

00:43:10.905 --> 00:43:14.025
Right now, I'm the guy going,
oh, you know, for this much I

00:43:14.025 --> 00:43:15.855
can execute these five tasks.

00:43:16.275 --> 00:43:17.715
And, but it's steady work.

00:43:17.715 --> 00:43:21.465
It's consistent income and I keep it
because it's the smart thing to do.

00:43:21.465 --> 00:43:21.795
Right?

00:43:21.795 --> 00:43:23.025
Keep that vertical going.

00:43:23.505 --> 00:43:28.545
So that probably takes 15% of my
week, which really only gives me 10

00:43:28.545 --> 00:43:35.325
or 15% of my week for actual client
manana, Voss work because I'm actively

00:43:35.325 --> 00:43:39.915
marketing promoting, always looking
for that next bigger margin job.

00:43:39.945 --> 00:43:40.545
na: Mm-hmm.

00:43:40.785 --> 00:43:41.025
Kurt: Right.

00:43:41.205 --> 00:43:43.395
And then we have team members
we delegate too, right?

00:43:43.395 --> 00:43:45.525
So they, they pick up some
of some of that work too.

00:43:45.825 --> 00:43:48.945
But the actual work, like you said,
the project management and stuff

00:43:48.945 --> 00:43:53.805
like that, the actual work that I
can do is only 10 or 15% of my time.

00:43:53.805 --> 00:43:58.485
I have to delegate the rest because
I have to commit that much to sales

00:43:58.485 --> 00:43:59.925
and marketing to keep the funnel full.

00:44:00.345 --> 00:44:00.525
na: Mm-hmm.

00:44:01.650 --> 00:44:03.060
Kurt: And how create what people think.

00:44:03.060 --> 00:44:06.600
The funnel isn't some magic funnel
lytics link out there, that's

00:44:06.600 --> 00:44:08.070
just bringing me free clients.

00:44:08.070 --> 00:44:08.610
Right.

00:44:08.610 --> 00:44:08.611
Right.

00:44:08.730 --> 00:44:12.750
And it's, it's the funnel means
the work to build the funnel.

00:44:12.960 --> 00:44:13.230
Toby: Yeah.

00:44:13.230 --> 00:44:16.760
And what, what, so that's a hundred
percent true definitely at our, let's

00:44:16.760 --> 00:44:20.360
say, freelancer agency level, but
I think it's true across the board.

00:44:20.575 --> 00:44:23.245
Like Walmart is still
out there advertising.

00:44:23.485 --> 00:44:23.815
Kurt: Yeah.

00:44:23.845 --> 00:44:28.225
Toby: You know, Target's still the,
you know, name company, Suzuki Motors

00:44:28.225 --> 00:44:32.935
still advertising like this is a never,
never ending, what do you call it?

00:44:32.935 --> 00:44:33.475
Mouse

00:44:33.475 --> 00:44:33.925
Kurt: wheel.

00:44:34.135 --> 00:44:34.585
Yeah.

00:44:34.885 --> 00:44:38.725
And what's really important is even
if you get those really big jobs or

00:44:38.725 --> 00:44:43.975
those really big contracts, you cannot
allow those really big contracts to all

00:44:43.975 --> 00:44:46.165
of a sudden become 85% of your week.

00:44:46.585 --> 00:44:49.615
Because if you're not continuing
to add to that funnel.

00:44:50.570 --> 00:44:54.080
When that work goes through the funnel
and trickles out the bottom, there's

00:44:54.080 --> 00:44:55.850
nothing left in the funnel to collect on.

00:44:56.270 --> 00:44:56.420
Mm-hmm.

00:44:56.690 --> 00:45:02.990
So you either need really, really strong
margins or you need to schedule your work

00:45:02.990 --> 00:45:06.620
in a way that says, which gets us back
to the original part of the conversation.

00:45:06.620 --> 00:45:09.230
Why does it take till Thursday
after next to change the heading?

00:45:09.320 --> 00:45:09.650
Right.

00:45:10.670 --> 00:45:12.680
Well, because they're doing other things.

00:45:12.950 --> 00:45:13.280
Toby: Yep.

00:45:13.460 --> 00:45:14.060
Exactly.

00:45:14.200 --> 00:45:15.010
let's end it there.

00:45:15.850 --> 00:45:17.740
This is whose web agency is this?

00:45:17.740 --> 00:45:22.280
Anyway, with Kurt Nanon, Toby Kres,
hope you'll join us next week.