The Modern Hotelier #57: The DNA of Travel: Advocacy, Technology, & Trends | with Stuart Greif
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Steve Carran [00:00:44]:
Thank you for tuning in to The Modern Hotelier. We had a great conversation with Stuart Greiff, the executive vice president, chief strategy, innovation, and operating officer at Forbes Travel Guide. David, what was one of your favorite things about our conversation with Stuart?

David Millili [00:01:01]:
I think it was that there were so many things that we covered that were great. We talked about technology. We talked about sustainability, talked about labor issues, and and, really, Stuart's background just really kinda, I think, for me, helped understand more how Forbes is looking at things and how they're making sure that the quality is there. What what did you think, Steve?

Steve Carran [00:01:19]:
You know, I I I love the technology side of what he talked about. I mean, we've had so many people talk about AR, VR, MR, and his perspective from working with those things at Microsoft and other innovative companies. His perspective is just, I don't think we've ever had on somebody quite like Stewart, and it was it was great to hear his thoughts.

David Millili [00:01:39]:
I agree. Alright. Enjoy the episode.

Steve Carran [00:01:42]:
Today, we have on Stuart Greiff. Stuart has over 30 years of global experience focused at the intersection of hospitality, customer experience, and technology. He's currently the executive vice president, chief strategy, innovation, and operating officer at Forbes Travel Guide. Welcome to the show, Stuart.

Stuart Greif [00:02:04]:
Thank you, gentlemen. It's great to be here. I love, I love your podcast and what you do.

Steve Carran [00:02:09]:
Thank you. So, Stuart, we're gonna go through 3 sections. Gonna ask you some lightning round type questions, learn about your background, and then get into some industry topics. Sound good? That sounds fantastic. Alright. Great. So what was your first job?

Stuart Greif [00:02:25]:
My first job was actually selling strawberries when I was 7 around our neighborhood. Was kind of entrepreneurial. I enlisted my sister and other folks. I figured out I could pick them locally and sell them for less than the supermarket and have something fresher and beautiful. And then in high school, I worked in everything from an iron works to washing dishes in a restaurant, to being on videos as a spokesperson for a company and even a skate garden and ice rink, pretty much anything and everything to help learn. And even a factory, all of the cubicles that we love so much, I put them together.

Steve Carran [00:03:00]:
Wow. What's your favorite city?

Stuart Greif [00:03:02]:
Man. It's like your kids. I know you guys love superlatives, but Kyoto in Japan is one that I lived in, and will always be near and dear to my heart above and beyond for personal reasons.

David Millili [00:03:16]:
Got it. What's the best piece of advice you've received?

Stuart Greif [00:03:19]:
Probably not to take advice. No. I, you know, I think advice is really personal and it's based on someone listening to you, but I think the best I ever got is is from the honorable Walter Annenberg, who is a philanthropist, Court of Saint James, and somebody had an opportunity to meet. He said, always respect the other person. He used fellow, but I I used person. I think that's true in life as well as in hospitality.

Steve Carran [00:03:44]:
If you could trade places with someone for a day, who would you trade places with?

Stuart Greif [00:03:49]:
Oh, wow. You know, I'm really happy with my life. I trade with myself and not go anywhere. I you know, personally and professionally, there are ups and downs, so I'm not gonna pollyanna it. But, no. I mean, maybe somebody else to get their perspective would be what I'd wanna do to walk in someone else's issues, but nobody's specific.

David Millili [00:04:06]:
Okay. What's on your bucket list?

Stuart Greif [00:04:10]:
Man. What's not? You know, the old saying, you you you never step in the same river twice. I would love to go to Paris with my wife because despite her global travels and having been in the travel industry, she's actually never been to Paris. So that would be the priority.

David Millili [00:04:25]:
What's a secret talent you have that most people don't know?

Stuart Greif [00:04:31]:
Well, then it won't be a secret anymore. I I I love to cook, so that's probably one people are a little bit surprised. I kinda geek out on it, including having sous vide and all sorts of equipment that at the time in New York, you should never have an apartment. I now live in California, so cooking would definitely be the hidden talent.

David Millili [00:04:49]:
Got it. Alright. Last one. So who would you rather be? Superman, Spiderman, or Batman? You gotta pick 1.

Stuart Greif [00:04:58]:
Superman, Spiderman, or Batman. I would say Superman. I I just think across the board, he has the ability to fly. He could travel wherever I wanted. Everybody else has got to take time to get there.

Steve Carran [00:05:11]:
I love it. I love it. That was great, Stuart. So now we're gonna find out a little bit more about your background, what makes you tick, things like that. So you grew up in East Windsor, New Jersey. How did that kinda shape you into who you are today?

Stuart Greif [00:05:27]:
Yeah. I mean, I think you guys got a sense of the self deprecating humor, since we're talking personal, as I warned you before we hopped on for your audience. My company does cover the first 6 weeks of therapy after this podcast. After that, you're on your own. I think that sense of humor or that humility. I mean, you know, there are people like John Stewart and Frank Sinatra and Bruce Springsteen that came from New Jersey. It's this kind of mix, I think, of working class, blue collar, white collar mix of ethos of of humility. We're not New York City.

Stuart Greif [00:05:57]:
We're not Philadelphia. So I think it really shaped my character and who I am.

David Millili [00:06:02]:
So you graduated from, I hope I said this right, Wesley, Lynn?

Stuart Greif [00:06:06]:
Yeah. Wesleyan in Connecticut, which was, undergrad and, a pretty activist school. My way of, staying single was when I walk around campus. I played ice hockey with my hockey jacket, and nobody would wanna talk to me. But it was kidding aside, it was a great experience because it exposed me to difference in so many different ways. And in high school, I also had an opportunity to live in Japan, to see life through another perspective, to be in a place I didn't look like everyone. And that just that and Wesleyan really broadened my horizons.

David Millili [00:06:38]:
How did you get interested in East Asia, specifically Japan, as a you know, from a educational standpoint?

Stuart Greif [00:06:45]:
Yeah. My my father worked for a Japanese company. And at the time, Japan was ascendant the way China, many people think about today. And I had this summer scholarship that was, like, applying to school. I was fortunate to be one of 4 to spend a summer through this program in Japan, and I came back wanting to learn and understand more. So it was as much that curiosity and learning about others And the Japanese sense of service that's imbued in the culture, I think, is also something that's highly resonant for me and with hospitality broadly.

Steve Carran [00:07:16]:
I love that. I love that. And then you went and got your MBA from the University of Virginia Darden School of Business, and you focused on strategy and general management. What made you decide to have that as your focus of your MBA?

Stuart Greif [00:07:31]:
I I was gonna say probably because I couldn't do the math to do finance or accounting. But, earlier in my career, I went in consulting. I wanted to experience a lot of broad different things. And, ironically, when I was in consulting, I was living out of a hotel in Midtown Manhattan for 18 months in a 22 month period, 5, 6 days a week. And that family of people at the hotel became my family. 25 years later, I met the concierge happenstance at Forbes Travel Guide event last year. He turns out he's the general secretary for Lake Laidure. So even then, growing up, I didn't have a lot of money to travel, but that really started this resonance in the industry even though it was as a guest, and then much later coming back to it.

Steve Carran [00:08:13]:
That's great. So that's good to get your background. Now we're gonna go into your career. This was really interesting to me. Your first job out of college was at Anderson Consulting, which is now Accenture. Obviously, a huge company now, but what was it like in those early days before it was this enormous company?

Stuart Greif [00:08:31]:
Oh, man. It's crazy. I talk about social commerce oftentimes and, you know, we forget we say something 20, 25 years ago. It seems like, you know, kinda yesterday in some ways or it's abstract. But when you think about, like, at the time, I had a laptop that had a roller board that was black and white, and we were going into Lotus Notes. And everything was a dial up modem from you actually had a landline and that horrible sound. Yeah. Right? Terrible.

Stuart Greif [00:08:57]:
So but it was it was trend technology was transforming the world, and so we were looking at how do we free up, which I think is still true in a very different way even with AI. How do we free up people from all the the time intensive stuff so that they can spend more time on the things that matter in hospitality, the guest experience, or connecting in human, which, you know, human connection is never gonna be replaced even though tech may enable it or be welcome. Ultimately, we're all still human beings. We didn't, evolve over all these eons and in the span of 30 years suddenly become cyborgs. That's just, you know, not how it is.

Steve Carran [00:09:32]:
So That's great. And then after you graduated UVA, you were hired directly by the CEO on a leadership program at the McGraw Hill Companies. That sounds like a wild experience. What was that like?

Stuart Greif [00:09:47]:
Yeah. It was great. I got to see a lot of different things and work around the world in financial services and education. And most significantly, we acquired JD Power and Associates. So I moved out to California. I was in Santa Monica. Nothing against other locations, but to leave New York City, it had to be for something. And then I realized why nobody tells New Yorkers how amazing the quality of life is in Southern California, the weather is because we all would have been there sooner.

Stuart Greif [00:10:11]:
But I got to lead global travel and hospitality as well as other areas, strategy, biz dev, m and a, and that's where, like, it really ignited my passion. I worked globally with players in Dubai, in Asia Pacific, all around the world, as well as North American countries in Europe. And it's really that intersection of guest experience through the guest's eyes and and what makes that and and and just how dynamic because things change over time. Right? Like, there was a point where an HDTV was the biggest wow factor. Right? And so I love the fact that, you know, it's kind of like answers change, but questions endure. And the same thing is true about the guest experience. We can say the same things about human connection, but the means and the ways we do it will continue to evolve as the world changes.

David Millili [00:10:55]:
So in 2007, you went to S and P for a couple of years, then you went to JD Power. You were promoted 9 times in 5 years, worked your way up to VP and general manager. What were your focuses there on global travel and hospitality?

Stuart Greif [00:11:09]:
Yeah. I mean, the the basis for all of those promotions in in these other industries was because of what I was doing in travel. And, you know, I think it's true in every business is you have to focus on what adds value for the consumer and and ways to continue to evolve and ask questions about, you know, how are we doing and what are the types of needs and pain points they have. You know, in startups, which, I play some role in sometimes, you know, there's a question of do you wanna be the vitamin, the thing that makes people feel good or is upside opportunity, or do you wanna be the pain killer? And most times the pain has cost and real challenge around it. So most times, you wanna be the pain killer, and I I found a way to help raise our profile. I recognize we didn't have budget to to get out in the industry, but Smith Travel Research, STR, Cornell's Hospitality did. So I found a way to barter our data that they could research and and share perspective in return for value that helped raise our profile. And I also changed the the understanding.

Stuart Greif [00:12:07]:
We were a research firm that said, hey. Satisfaction went from here to here. The question is, what's the story? And the story was different for the audience on CNBC Squawk on the Street that I shared with, versus NPR, versus industry trade. So I think you have to understand your audience from communication and adapt and understand what each segment or audience really cares about to to be resonant and and to be relevant. Absolutely.

David Millili [00:12:33]:
That's great. And you then started your own company that I believe was it acquired by Microsoft?

Stuart Greif [00:12:39]:
No. I worked with, them. So I worked with private equity, with startups, with traditional companies. I helped actually the private equity company that bought JD Power acquire it. And then I also worked with I did, was an early beta tester for Airbnb trips, which, you know, being in the hotel industry, I have mixed feelings about in retrospect. But I I love our industry and innovation broadly, and I worked with a variety of top brands. At Microsoft, I'm thinking there are some things I can't talk about, but we worked with one of the world's biggest hotel companies in the world where I was doing this for my own business as an adviser to look at what's going on in in computer gaming. So the fact that when kids game together or adults, they spend 6 times the time and 4 times the money, and there's real time data, and and the game is changing.

Stuart Greif [00:13:26]:
How could you take that to enterprise, to one of the global hospitality companies and apply that to their loyalty program or when you're on property? So if people have a wedding block, could you connect them and say, hey. If one more person joins the spa tomorrow and 2 more people join a free whiskey tasting, because people spend money at the bar after, we'll upgrade the bride and groom to to a nicer suite and give them a bottle of champagne. So a lot of stuff that I can't talk publicly about, but, it was a great time to help add value and learn in between more significant longer duration roles.

Steve Carran [00:13:58]:
That's great. And then after Microsoft, you actually went to an a startup, Amperty, which was recommended to you by, Satya Nadella, which is Microsoft's CEO. Right?

Stuart Greif [00:14:10]:
Satya. Yeah. I came across this little company that had a beta product and 1 or 2 nascent brands. 1 was Alaska Airlines, and the other was an LVMH company in spirits. Put them in touch, and and we spoke to them. And we could see they fundamentally solved the hardest part that everybody kind of skates past when it comes to customer data. And we we don't need to go technical. What's important is they have 1 or 2 clients, and myself and my colleague, Shane, who's still at Microsoft and travel, really became evangelists.

Stuart Greif [00:14:40]:
And then I joined them. They had 1 or 2 betas. I joined them when they had about 12 clients. I helped them, get in. Wyndham CEO and the CMO have cited them publicly and their impact in earnings as well as at events. And Amparity now has 400 plus brands around the world, including many hospitality players, and and travel players as well as retail. And so we had Starbucks CEO on the board at one point, and it's the credit to the founders and the founding team. Then there became a point where it was clear they needed people that were SaaS sellers, people that are salespeople, which I am not a professional seller.

Stuart Greif [00:15:15]:
I have huge amount of respect and esteem. It's a personality as well as a important skill set not to be underestimated. So we had a great way to part ways, and and that kinda led me to Forbes travel guide.

Steve Carran [00:15:28]:
Yeah.

David Millili [00:15:28]:
So you've been at Forbes for 4 years now. Tell us what you're focusing on as executive price president and chief strategy, innovation, and operating officer.

Stuart Greif [00:15:38]:
Well, the really great news for us is we have tremendous leadership between our chairman who founded WebMD and himself has been chairman of of this business and owner for for quite some time and is expert. And the CEOs we had and even before, you probably know Jerry Anzarello kinda helped us expand globally. There was a point where we're only in 6 and set 6 to 7 markets, and we're in 85 plus today. And then Philippe Boyan, legendary hotelier, you know, as well as being SLH and, Belmont among many others in his career really helped provide the leadership, you know, as we went through COVID, but also structurally to take that. And and that primed it for now Hermann Elgar, who, as you probably know, you know, whether, you know, Baccarat, Montage, Ritz Carlton, you know, over the decades, he opened many Ritz Carlton's around the world, you know, is just a a world class 5 star hotelier as well. And, you know, he's really leaned into growth. So it's this partnership, I think, with all these different experts and complimentary folks. We're certainly expanding what we do, which just for your audience, you know, we are the global leader when it comes to standards and ratings and luxury and broadly and service excellence.

Stuart Greif [00:16:50]:
And we have tremendous trainers around the world. I like to say they're the TEDx of the training world. We just had our 2024 rating release over 2,000 hotel restaurants and spas that we, and ocean cruises, that we directly evaluate in person in detail across 900 plus standards. And, of course, our standards evolve. Right? Answers change, Questions endure. And so we're particularly proud. And then we've layered these digital products and services to say, how do you get a little bit of our best expertise in a daily stand up, a little exercise? As we know, training is wonderful, but unless you practice and and most folks want little microbursts, a little little snack size bite to keep fresh and, and sharp each and every day. So we compliment that with everybody else and their efforts within their own brands around the world.

Steve Carran [00:17:37]:
Well, that was great learning about your background. Now we're gonna get your thoughts on a few industry trends and what's happening on in the hospitality industry. So, currently, I was so surprised to see how many different organizations you advise or mentor. What are some of the great things and exciting things on the technology development side of hospitality that you're seeing?

Stuart Greif [00:18:01]:
Yeah. My wife says I should get new, you know, hobbies. This is, my passion before hours, after, on weekends, you know, in addition to, you know, substantial, you know, commitment at work. But, yeah, I just I I want all of us to do better. I think I wanna say that first is, yes, there's competition in the market. AI is certainly transformational and chat GPT. It's not overnight, but over 5 to 10 years, I think that is and and many people in the imagination think of, okay, the consumer side and there are all these kind of personalized, trip planning or how I book my trip. The transformation is really happening on the B2B side.

Stuart Greif [00:18:37]:
It's what I said at the beginning. It's how do you wrap and augment people in the industry, whether you're a travel adviser, whether you're, working in a hotel. Could you imagine even if you're doing finance or sales in a Hotelier, simply saying, hey. Can you create a chart that shows me the monthly trend by salesperson and compare it year over year? And could you also give me a visualization of that in whatever format? So I think in a lot of ways, it is gonna, over time, not immediately, change the game. It's also when it comes to developing products. It's it you know, my friend, Gilad Berenstain, is on the board of Virtuoso and, adviser to the Travel Corp among many things and also plays in startups, talks about as the great commoditization, that it is enabling all of us to have kind of superhuman intelligence. I don't mean lowering the bar. I did grow up in New Jersey.

Stuart Greif [00:19:30]:
So thank you for you know, instead of ray we can't raise up. Thank you for lowering it so I could reach it. But it does enable, you know, people that don't have to have, you know, decades of experience to access expert level understanding as a starting point. There's still gonna be a need for people. But just like the industrial revolution and all the other things that have changed, we too will adapt, in my view, that this is gonna take a lot of the time intensive administrative and ideally free us up to spend more time on our guests, more time on the creativity and the experience, more time on raising the bar of what it means to create connection in what we do in hospitality.

Steve Carran [00:20:10]:
And, you know, you talked about AI and ChatGPT. I mean, just seeing where ChatGPT has gone from 3.5 to 4 is is quite a big jump. Where do you see AI going over the next, I'm gonna just say, 3 to 5 years?

Stuart Greif [00:20:27]:
Yeah. If you look up, an article Skift wrote and search Microsoft AI and my name, you'll find a article from 2017 where Sean, who's Sean O'Neil's a wonderful journalist and leader there, covered me talking about this. And I talk about a lot of the things. The reality is that the technology oftentimes is there much faster than we as human beings in organizations and from a risk are willing to kind of play and experiment. So I think some of the things that I talked about there, I to in my defense or to my credit, I wasn't Babe Ruth picking my shot. I was just lucky. I said, I think it's gonna be about 5 years. Right? That my friend Shane from Microsoft often talks about.

Stuart Greif [00:21:11]:
The technology goes like this, and adoption goes like that. So I think we have time. And the thing is the power of it may go exponential, but our capacity, our understanding, our use cases. Know, when the Internet first came out, doing a website was stupid, expensive, complicated, and it wasn't standard. No one could do it. Same thing with apps. But over time, more people understood the technology. More turnkey products and services came out.

Stuart Greif [00:21:38]:
It became more kind of mass institutionalized to enable us. And I think the same thing will happen. My advice to all of us is that breathe, number 1. Number 2, 30 years ago with the Internet, you were still giving great experiences. And think about all the technologies from the Internet to, like, messaging apps, to apps themselves, Facebook, Instagram, social media now. Right? All of that, including AI, it will play a role, but it's still a tool. It's just a tool to help us do our job better more efficiently and free us up to focus on other things. So I think that the important thing is not that you have to jump, but, you know, play around with it.

Stuart Greif [00:22:19]:
Just today, there's this new video capability that was announced from OpenAI and Microsoft where instead of just an image, you can type text, show me a video of me walking through Kyoto to my favorite ramen shop, you know, in fall with leaves slowly falling in in this district, and it'll generate a very realistic video. Now I think the other side of AI, which is relevant to Forbes travel guide is, and this is true of influencers too, the more there is kind of noise and the opportunity for deep fakes and fake reviews at mass scale and things, The more important, the really verified voices that are known and trusted and independent will come through. And some of that happens over time. But when you come to Forbes Travel Guide, for example, you know that those hotels have been inspected individual. I'm not negative. In fact, I've got a great view on social commerce I'm happy to touch on later in in the conversation. But who is the trusted source and what can I believe becomes even more relevant in an era when you can't quite be sure what you can trust?

Steve Carran [00:23:23]:
Absolutely. And kinda going on to another new technology, you know, we've been talking about AR, VR, MR for, I don't know, since we've been doing this podcast, and the opinions vary on how it's gonna be implemented into the hospitality space. I'd love to have your opinion on how we're gonna see this mixed reality come into hotel and hospitality.

Stuart Greif [00:23:47]:
Yeah. That's a it's a great question, Steve. I appreciate that. I I was a early adviser to, a ARVR company. I worked, you know, in travel and then also that was called Escape. And I also at Microsoft worked with HoloLens, and I wrote about how Microsoft enabled my wheelchair bound father to visit the cosmos and be an astronaut and climb the the Andes. So I have a very positive view of it. I I while there might be some cannibalization, yes, if somebody's gonna do it, you know, VR is not gonna replace what it feels like to slink into the hot tub or step into the ocean or bite into the food or hear the sounds of a local or the the smells of fresh flowers.

Stuart Greif [00:24:27]:
So I actually think it is going to increase exponentially the interest and demand. I think younger people, students, where financially or physically they can't travel, they might be in a developing country, the ability to go places all over the world and get a sense of what they're like and want to then spark that interest later. Older people, people that physically can't go or places that are maybe dangerous or geopolitically aren't open to be able to experience, from sales and marketing to wet the appetite and see what you're and preview what you're going to experience. And my view is that Apple is going to accelerate that. I think Meta and Zuckerberg learned you can't force acceleration of a technology, up mass adoption faster than society and people and and the form factor and price allow. I think Apple, because of how widely dispersed and their their products in the consumer side, longer term, I don't mean with the current $4,000 version. That's still early. But I think they will be an accelerant.

Stuart Greif [00:25:28]:
It's still, I think, a 5 to 10 year horizon because of the technology form factor, people not walking in front of cars, you know, when they think they're, like, skiing down Mount Everest. Right? There there are a lot of things that need to get, you know, worked out. But I do think over and generationally, you know, kids that are growing up, Apple saw the like, not vomiting, I think, is a prerequisite for most products. Right? Yeah. Unless it's unless it's roller coaster, fair enough, at an amusement park. But, you know, that could be a badge of honor. So I think they've figured things out. I do think it's coming.

Stuart Greif [00:26:02]:
I think it's very positive for us overall, and I'm excited by it, not afraid of it.

David Millili [00:26:09]:
Yeah. That's funny because last night, I was at an event in downtown Phoenix, and that's really the hotbed for Waymo and the driverless cars and taxis. And, you know, there was just it was funny. There was a couple that was getting in it, and they're like, oh, we're nervous. We're nervous. I said, don't worry. I only know I only know a couple of people who've been killed driving, and those things go have a good time. And they they took off and that was that.

David Millili [00:26:29]:
But anyway, but yeah, it's it's it's and I've been in Phoenix 6 years. And 6 years ago, they were still driving around and it's still not But

Stuart Greif [00:26:36]:
You can remind them that worrying and sadness is really for the survivors. So Alright.

David Millili [00:26:41]:
So we're gonna move on to a couple of hot topics. So you are an advocate for female, DE and I, and traditional unrepresented founders and leaders. What inspires you to advocate for that?

Stuart Greif [00:26:53]:
Yeah. I mean, I think my sisters and mother broke me in, growing up. But I think it's a deep abiding conviction when you see, people that you know not having the same opportunities as you and and you know them well to be equally, you know, smart, capable, etcetera. You know, my father is a great father as well. What I'd say is 3 things here. I think we need to flip DEI and things on its head. There was just a New York Times op ed, 2 Harvard Business School professors, so not not, you know, Stewie's, school of University of Central New Jersey. Right? Harvard Business School professors and other Harvard related researcher who, put out that, yes, teams that aren't diverse perform well, but the delta, the the huge gap of diverse teams outperform when you're inclusive is something that if I were to ask anybody on the call or anybody in business said, if there's something that's guaranteed to give you more revenue, drive more profit, happier customers, happier employers, better stakeholders, and you can control it, wouldn't you do it? And nobody nobody will say no to that.

Stuart Greif [00:27:59]:
So I think we need to kind of flip it where, you know, the reality is you're not you you are failing in your fiduciary responsibility if you are not cultivating and helping foster diversity. And I wanna say 2 other quick things if that's okay. The first is and a woman said this, not me, a couple decades ago. You know, talent is distributed equally, opportunity is not. If I was born in a developing country far away from a capital, there is no way I would be in this current role today. And the third thing, which, you know, I think we need to be intellectually honest about it. Right? And and, you know, I'm, you know, white male. I say that neutrally, not in a sense of wokeism.

Stuart Greif [00:28:37]:
The business world historically has been run by people who look and, you know, are like me. Does any one of us truly believe if the business world historically and today were run primarily by women, that we wouldn't have more flexible childcare and family policies and that there wouldn't be fewer outings at sports bars after work. And replace women with people from different backgrounds, right, different groups that are diverse and so forth. So the notion that fiduciary, it's better for your business, should be paramount. The notion that it's also the right thing to do means that we need to think beyond just the folks when it comes to mind of, oh, in my network, because in our DNA, we have a bias to people that are like us as a survival instinct, and yet that's contrary to to driving a, you know, performance in your business. And it takes additional work to do it to go out of your way. So I I have a deep commitment. I'm very proud of our event this year, Forbes Travel Guide, not by a quota, not DEI for its own sake, but looking for quality people and different voices in our industry will be 50% of the speakers will be women, and fully a third, non gender specific, will actually be of diverse backgrounds, be that people of color or other dimensions of culture, etcetera.

David Millili [00:29:59]:
Well, and, like, you know, like you, Jersey, I grew up outside of Philly, and, you know, there weren't a lot of there wasn't a lot of diversity in my high school. And, I then was fortunate when I went to FIU. Well, I met a lot of international people. Then when I was done, I went to New York, and that was kinda like the, you know, it not that it changed me, but it just you kinda realize there's good people, there's quality people, there's people who are super smart from all over the world, and you just never got to see meet them growing up. So it was it was just in it was incredible for me.

Stuart Greif [00:30:32]:
And, David, that's exactly my experience growing up. And just just like you, that's what Wesleyan was. So it it it's that widening in your aperture on life that you're forever changed because of it.

David Millili [00:30:44]:
So another big topic, you're part of the World Economic Forum Global Future Council For Sustainability and Tourism. What are some of the things that you're seeing or objectives, initiatives around sustainability and hospitality that you feel are are are making progress?

Stuart Greif [00:31:01]:
Yeah. And I know right now it feels like areas of ESG and DEI are kind of the pendulum swinging back. I know there are certain concerted efforts. I I'm not trying to be political, so I wanna stay away from regardless of whether you believe I know the World Economic Forum for some people can be very political. You know? Is net zero something with climate change? Does it exist or not? The the reality is whether humid whatever your belief that, you know, you look at the the temperatures and things in Europe last year, it is having a profound impact on travel and hospitality. Sea levels, regardless of, you know, which side of the conversation you're on. Those are things that impact our industry that we need to rise to the occasion. I think there's also sometimes travel gets looked at as this kind of, like, nice to have.

Stuart Greif [00:31:47]:
It's leisure. And so one of the things we're trying to do in addition to dealing with how the industry responds and gets in front of and and gets, you know, as much as we can, continues to work on improving the situation, is this notion of, you know, travel has been in our DNA since time immemorial. Right? People migrated for sustenance and food and then for trade and over time to learn and expand their horizons at a time that the world sometimes can't seem any more divisive, where people are at each other and there are wars going on in geopolitics, what chance do we as humanity stand if we can't go somewhere to stand in someone else's shoes and experience what I did in Japan or even on a smaller scale, David, what we did in our university experience and, Steve, I'm sure, many experiences in your life. And when you look at the loneliness epidemic, which technology is compounding in spite of the fact that people can connect, Right? It it's in real life. Our our biology has been wired a certain way in a very short span of time. That's changing. So not not everything's black and white or a monolith. And and so, again, I don't wanna be Pollyanna or say all tech is good or all tech is bad.

Stuart Greif [00:33:00]:
I believe this notion, 10% of GDP globally is the travel industry. 1 in 4 or 5 new jobs globally created as part of that. We were in Dubai, which I pointed out, even to the World Economic Forum leadership itself in the travel industry, a market that would otherwise not exist at least as it does now if not for travel and tourism. And at a time the kingdom of Saudi Arabia is investing and redefining sustainability and and all types of innovation, which is a global effort, not just them. Right? A $1,000,000,000,000 plus over the next 10 years. I believe it's it's this notion of elevating. And I you see it generationally, younger people. There are economic reasons and, social political ones as well.

Stuart Greif [00:33:45]:
But, you know, this notion of after COVID of what do I need to be self actualized as a human being and not just in the big grand things. It could be, you know, in small things in my daily life, the shift to to business and leisure that's adding huge incremental demand, the shift to well-being and longevity and biohacking and all of these things that aren't just about physical, they're also about emotional well-being, right, mental well-being. And so I feel very bullish about where we're going. I am concerned in the near to midterm of the impacts over tourism, things like climate that are impacting our ability to kind of have those experiences.

Steve Carran [00:34:25]:
Right. Absolutely. The big topic last year was, you know, labor shortage. Are we gonna have kinda that same thing going into 2024 here, or are we gonna have some other issue come up that's gonna be kind of the primary focuses here?

Stuart Greif [00:34:41]:
Yeah. I think some are structural. There are many different factors. I think generationally, a little bit, unfortunately, because of social media, you know, it seems this notion of service has kind of fallen out, but there's also economic. We we need to make it a viable career path where people can see it. I think flexible, the ability not every role would be conducive, but, you know, there was an article today about more funding for gig platforms. And I'm not suggesting that it's primary, but if somebody wants to work or they can only work certain times because they have a kid, they have to pick up or drop off, The ability, I think, of the industry to more flexibly accommodate that and find ways and I know there are people working at it, the the big brands and and independent companies. I think our structure of how staffing happens, you imagine where you could have everybody where it's like, hey.

Stuart Greif [00:35:28]:
They're they're qualified on these PMS systems. Property. So I think some of it is that. I do think as a career, even before COVID and this crisis hit, things were upside down. You had most of the people going to hospitality schools like Cornell, which, you know, which I love with the amount of investment and then coming out, understandably, because you have to apprentice and learn it, where the economics for many other people, a lot of those people would go into real estate or Assad because there was more money or they could pay the loans. So I think there's maybe broader, you know, e learning and certification, and that's certainly an area of focus. We, we have e learning to help train the industry, the notion of mobile first. So I think, I think we're catching up to many of the changes, but they don't change as quickly as society does or as we've had this shift.

Stuart Greif [00:36:21]:
So I'm encouraged longer term, but I short to mid term, we still have a lot of chopping wood. Right? And the x's and o's to keep working on. What do you guys think? I mean, you you talk to far many more people. I'm sure your audience would love to hear kinda where where you see things.

David Millili [00:36:36]:
You know, I I've worked every job in a hotel. I lived on property in New York running Hotelier. And I think that is one of the challenge, unlike maybe Europe or even in Asia where it's not a real career. It's a lot of, like, hey. I'm gonna do this till I get to something else. And I think that's a shame, and I think that, you know, I don't like to call out owners, but I think it's very ironic how when times are great, the wealth isn't shared across, you know, the staff members. But yet during a COVID or something, there's all this, oh, we can't we can't find people, and now housekeepers want more money. And it's like, well, you know, some of this retention could be if you actually shared some of the wealth and paid people and had a path for them to to grow and make it a career, not a job.

David Millili [00:37:21]:
And I think that's what I always saw from being a a manager was, you know, how do I get people that I know wanna become managers or move up? How do I guide them and help them do that? And I think the industry needs more of that.

Steve Carran [00:37:34]:
I agree a 100%. And I think I think we're gonna have a shift of kinda like you said, David. We're gonna think of hospitality as a career because there's so many folks dedicated towards leadership, whether that's, you know, focus Hertellier focused on, you know, leadership in women, but there are so many more of these organizations focused on success and people growing within hospitality. So So I think we're gonna hopefully see that. And, you know, like you said, David, hopefully, owners are gonna start paying a little bit more so people aren't taken to other industries because they're gonna make more money.

Stuart Greif [00:38:01]:
You guys bring up too an interesting dynamic that I think is going on, and I I don't rejoice in it, but it's it's an observation. I'm curious what you guys think. So I I feel like there's this bifurcation between hospitality and accommodation even in the hotel industry, driven a lot by a good, you know, industry friend, Del Ross, who's McKinsey, talks about, you know, from a real estate investment, just as as a pure financial return, the hotel investor has to make money. Otherwise, you know, they'd use it's something else or they wouldn't build a hotel. And as a result of whether it's public or private equity ownership, the push, you know, for for profits, labor where costs are going up. And I don't say that as a negative. I grew up, you know, where I worked in factories is people don't have a livable wage in many, right, areas are enough given the cost of living. So that's a disconnect too.

Stuart Greif [00:38:55]:
That's a matter of it. So it feels like much like the airline industry, where if you wanna have a better experience, you know, economy used to be okay, but you don't have really human touch where you're gonna have to spend money on business class or spend enough money to be a frequent flyer. And it feels like outside of boutique and luxury and certain countries that may have certain economics with labor be developing or places like Japan and Thailand where culturally, for examples, not the only places, it's imbued as part of the culture that if you wanna have a more human experience, it's kinda getting pushed out into corners. There are brands that aren't like that, like jewelry, where Chuck Jewelry, I know, where that's kinda Midwest, you know, value. Southwest did it in low cost airlines. So, again, I'm not suggesting it's everyone. And I know the big brands are doing a lot of things trying to enable technology, but a lot of things now are like opt in house or grab and go, opt in housekeeping, or no. It's like self-service or no service.

Stuart Greif [00:39:53]:
And so you can still build stuff around that and have a great experience even, like, if I stay at a Hampton Inn, some people have weddings there, different price points. But it's getting harder, it feels like, to provide human hospitality as much outside of those. And I wonder what what you guys think about that premise.

David Millili [00:40:12]:
Well, it's I think it's about the people. I mean, I think that's one of the things that so it's kinda funny because on one hand, our industry as a whole is scared of technology because they think it's gonna hinder the experience and the relationship what hospitality is supposed to mean. But then I travel all the time, and, you know, I'm just like, there's no service here. Like, what would be the difference between a kiosk asking me for a credit card and my ID or a person? If that person's not interacting with me, there's no emotional connection. And I always tell people I had a overnight flight to Heathrow, stayed at the citizen m, checked myself in, was super happy because I could go right back down to the bar. And that checking in quick got me to the bar, and I had a great experience there. It didn't take away from the hotel. I loved the hotel because I didn't need someone to, like, take my credit card and take my ID.

David Millili [00:41:07]:
You know, I did it myself, but then the bartender, the staff was great. And, you know, I felt, you know, you could ask questions about the you know, it was an area of London I hadn't been to. So you gotta be in this business if you wanna be in this business and you like people. If you don't, just get out. Go do something else because it just it taints the rest of the industry. You know, the you know, I you know, I always tell people I've had better service at a Dunkin' Donuts than I have at a 4 star hotel.

Steve Carran [00:41:32]:
Yeah. I I'm all I'm I don't wanna go on too much, but I I'm a huge proponent of giving guests the option of how they wanna utilize technology. You know, offering it if if that fits your hotel, but not making it the the center the focal point of your stay. It it's always about people. Right? And David and I have had similar experiences at CitizenM where, you know, we wanna get in quick, but there's people standing around that are always so willing to help. And in Washington, DC, that person made an incredible experience for me.

Stuart Greif [00:42:02]:
I think you guys that's the conundrum. You guys I I I like the way you both articulated it. I said, you know, nobody wants to go back to a mile or kilometer long line at the airport for 3 seconds of eye contact and a paper ticket versus 30 seconds in an app. But we want the rest where the fewer people that remain or to build more human connection around that. So remove the frictions. Matthew from Virtuoso, the CEO, talks about, you know, automating kind of that, you know, more pedantic to to be able to focus on the exceptional. I I love and I'm, butchering his more eloquent quote, but people should look it up because, I think you guys hit it on the head that it's really resonant for me.

Steve Carran [00:42:44]:
Awesome. Awesome. Well, this is great. I feel like we could have a conversation for another hour. But, one thing I wanna get to is John. He has been sitting by this whole time. He has one final question for you, Stuart, and then we'll let you go.

Stuart Greif [00:43:00]:
Great. Sounds great. Hey. Great to see you, John.

Jon Bumhoffer [00:43:03]:
My question is, you know, as somebody who or as an organization and somebody involved in an organization who creates these travel guides and all these things, are there, like, for sure tangibles, things that you look for that really set things apart? Or what are maybe some of those, like, really tangible things versus intangible things that kinda tip the scales?

Stuart Greif [00:43:23]:
Really great question. I think one of the things, and I appreciate, you know, we didn't talk about this, so it's perfect, is, you know, when when we go out and evaluate hotels around the world or spas, restaurants, ocean cruises, 70% of that is based on the service. Because, you know, Daniel Langer is a famous professor of luxury at NYU in Pepperdine, and this is true even if you're not in luxury, you know, talks about, you know, the product was, you know, astonishing, all of this, but, you know, the service wasn't there. It's what David and Steve were talking about. It's kinda soulless, the connection. So, you know, luxury in particular, great product is table stakes. And that and and there are places that wow you you might go to. But the question is, what would make you wanna go back with so many other amazing, beautiful properties around the world more and more every day.

Stuart Greif [00:44:14]:
And it's gonna be that human connection to that service, which is why I believe you know, we've talked about everything from technology and social media to, you know, owners and price and labor and wages, and you talk about what matters. Ultimately, that's what it comes down to. And, you know, how do you make me as your guest or each one of us wants to feel welcome like family? Well, maybe not my family because I'm from New Jersey, but a different story. Right? We we we wanna feel seen and heard and valued and be respected You know, David talked about going down to the bar at CitizenM because that's where they the human connection. So they wanna expedite the part that matters less. Let's get David to his room so he can get to the things quickly that he has more time to enjoy. Right? Connecting at the bar with other people, with the bartender, and maybe with, sir Johnnie Walker Black. I don't know.

Stuart Greif [00:45:15]:
I'm projecting that right in my yep.

David Millili [00:45:17]:
Yeah. I can get get it from my Flickr cabinet right now. Yeah. No. Exactly. So before we end, we can always cut this out, but it's hilarious because you've you've taken plenty of shots at New Jersey. I I lived in New Jersey for many years, but growing up outside of Philadelphia, when I moved to New York and then New Jersey, I refused to change my driver's license. So my car had PA plates, and I had a a Pennsylvania driver's license.

David Millili [00:45:41]:
And everyone was like, you're crazy. And I'm like, I don't know. I'm like, I don't like other than having one license plate on the back, and I like the one on the front. And I'm like, you know, just growing up, I was always like a PA guy. But anyway, so

Stuart Greif [00:45:50]:
We're all and I was like, Philly, New Jersey, New York, long it's like we're all cousins. You know? Not not like my wife's family in Arkansas. That's a different story.

David Millili [00:46:01]:
The big thing for me is always just the food. Like, everyone says, like, what's the one thing you don't like about Phoenix? And I'm like, it's not the same type of food. I can't get good pizza. I can't you know, there's only so many restaurants. And when you're going to restaurants in New York, people are dressed nicer, and you come out here and there's, like, you're at, like, a nice restaurant. People are in shorts and flip flops, and you're like, it's kinda

Stuart Greif [00:46:23]:
the bay area. Thank thank you for wearing, only your 4 day old hoodie that hasn't been washed. So

David Millili [00:46:31]:
Alright. Well, that does it for another episode of the Modern Hotelier. This is where, Stuart, you get to plug away, let people know how they can find out or connect to you, find out more about Forbes. So the floor is yours.

Stuart Greif [00:46:44]:
Yeah. I, shared a bit about what we do. We're so passionate about the industry and supporting service excellence. You can go to forbestravelguide.com, and you can check out all of the hotels, spas, restaurant, ocean cruises that have been highly verified embedded by us. And then for myself, reach out on LinkedIn is, the best way. I'm pretty active on there, and I love to share things that I think that are interesting, and seems to be resonating with folks out there. And let me know what you think as well. So, thank you all and and your audience as well for the opportunity to share, and feel free to keep in, as much of the New Jersey, jokes as you like.

Stuart Greif [00:47:21]:
That's part of our DNA. So

David Millili [00:47:23]:
You've got it. Awesome. Thank you, Stuart. That does it for another episode of Modern Hotelier. Hope to see everyone again soon. Thank you.

Steve Carran [00:47:32]:
You made it to the end of the Modern Hotelier. Thanks for listening. The Modern Hotelier is produced by Make More Media. Make sure to like and subscribe if you're listening on YouTube or subscribe wherever you get your podcasts. If you know a guest or sponsor that would be a good fit, feel free to email us at hello at the modern hotelier.com. If you'd like to get some Modern Hotelier merch, click the merch button on modernhotelier.com or click the link below. Thanks and have a great day.