1 00:00:00,000 --> 00:00:02,000 if we as men spend our entire time like 2 00:00:02,000 --> 00:00:03,233 I'm a tough guy I'm this 3 00:00:03,233 --> 00:00:08,300 I'm that if all you do is project that image man 4 00:00:08,300 --> 00:00:09,700 you are brittle right 5 00:00:09,700 --> 00:00:10,766 like you will yeah 6 00:00:10,766 --> 00:00:13,066 there is nothing you can withstand 7 00:00:13,066 --> 00:00:14,733 if you're constantly tense 8 00:00:21,933 --> 00:00:25,500 today on Raising Men I'm joined by Paul Kicks 9 00:00:25,566 --> 00:00:28,266 he's a journalist a storyteller 10 00:00:28,433 --> 00:00:32,600 he's the author of you have to be prepared to die 11 00:00:32,600 --> 00:00:34,433 before you can begin to live 12 00:00:34,433 --> 00:00:35,533 Paul's work 13 00:00:35,900 --> 00:00:38,900 has taken him deep into the heart of what drives people 14 00:00:38,900 --> 00:00:41,500 especially in extreme moments 15 00:00:41,500 --> 00:00:46,833 and some of those same things show up in fatherhood 16 00:00:46,833 --> 00:00:48,700 and in raising men Paul 17 00:00:48,833 --> 00:00:50,633 thank you so much for joining us 18 00:00:50,633 --> 00:00:52,866 it is just an absolute pleasure to have you 19 00:00:53,033 --> 00:00:54,800 it's likewise likewise 20 00:00:54,800 --> 00:00:56,533 my friend thank you 21 00:00:56,800 --> 00:00:57,033 uh now 22 00:00:57,033 --> 00:01:02,233 your career has revolved around uncovering deep 23 00:01:02,333 --> 00:01:06,766 human stories how has being a storyteller shaped 24 00:01:06,766 --> 00:01:08,566 the way that you see fatherhood 25 00:01:08,566 --> 00:01:11,600 and the narrative that you pass on to your sons 26 00:01:11,900 --> 00:01:12,533 oh man 27 00:01:12,533 --> 00:01:13,733 that's such a great question 28 00:01:13,733 --> 00:01:14,966 uh I think probably 29 00:01:14,966 --> 00:01:15,800 oh wow 30 00:01:16,000 --> 00:01:17,800 I don't even want to be flipping with it 31 00:01:17,800 --> 00:01:18,900 let me think that through 32 00:01:18,900 --> 00:01:20,266 so um 33 00:01:21,500 --> 00:01:21,766 alright 34 00:01:21,766 --> 00:01:24,500 probably the best way to answer that is to say that 35 00:01:25,000 --> 00:01:28,900 I think a lot now about raising the boys 36 00:01:28,900 --> 00:01:31,733 not just with I guess what you would say 37 00:01:31,733 --> 00:01:35,133 the traditional traits of masculinity 38 00:01:35,133 --> 00:01:37,300 you know strength boldness 39 00:01:37,333 --> 00:01:38,333 assertiveness 40 00:01:38,900 --> 00:01:41,033 but also I guess you could say for 41 00:01:41,033 --> 00:01:42,800 for a whole more holistic approach 42 00:01:42,800 --> 00:01:45,900 like make sure that they do so with kindness as well 43 00:01:46,033 --> 00:01:49,066 make sure that they realize that um 44 00:01:50,433 --> 00:01:51,966 they realize that actually 45 00:01:51,966 --> 00:01:57,766 what it means to be a real man is to lead a household 46 00:01:57,766 --> 00:02:01,933 yes but then also be kind enough to 47 00:02:01,933 --> 00:02:03,600 to everybody who lives in that household 48 00:02:03,600 --> 00:02:04,600 and frankly like 49 00:02:04,600 --> 00:02:06,233 I try to practice what I preach 50 00:02:06,233 --> 00:02:07,366 you know but it's not I 51 00:02:07,366 --> 00:02:09,366 I sometimes find short I fall short 52 00:02:09,366 --> 00:02:12,033 like there are times where I'm yelling at the boys 53 00:02:12,033 --> 00:02:13,966 or our daughter or 54 00:02:13,966 --> 00:02:16,400 you know like I can be short with my wife 55 00:02:16,500 --> 00:02:17,500 and I think it's like 56 00:02:17,500 --> 00:02:20,200 I think it's something that I'll probably myself 57 00:02:20,600 --> 00:02:23,800 how to be a father is something I'll probably have to 58 00:02:23,900 --> 00:02:26,033 continue to practice until I'm yeah 59 00:02:26,133 --> 00:02:27,200 until they're well until 60 00:02:27,200 --> 00:02:28,766 until they're their own fathers 61 00:02:28,766 --> 00:02:29,533 right until my 62 00:02:29,533 --> 00:02:31,300 until my daughter is absolutely 63 00:02:31,566 --> 00:02:32,633 yeah I 64 00:02:32,633 --> 00:02:33,133 I uh I 65 00:02:33,133 --> 00:02:34,900 I recognize that in myself 66 00:02:34,900 --> 00:02:39,166 I did the same thing and part of that jury is 67 00:02:39,166 --> 00:02:40,100 I mean obviously 68 00:02:40,100 --> 00:02:41,700 ideally we would never make any mistakes 69 00:02:41,700 --> 00:02:44,233 and we would never snap at our kids or at our wives 70 00:02:44,233 --> 00:02:45,033 or something like that 71 00:02:45,033 --> 00:02:48,533 but it's just as important in those 72 00:02:48,533 --> 00:02:51,466 those moments are an opportunity to model the right 73 00:02:51,500 --> 00:02:52,800 repair behavior too 74 00:02:53,333 --> 00:02:53,700 yeah and 75 00:02:53,700 --> 00:02:54,700 and so yeah 76 00:02:54,700 --> 00:02:57,000 I think it's kind of important to have some Grace about 77 00:02:57,000 --> 00:02:57,500 well okay 78 00:02:57,500 --> 00:02:58,700 fine we all fall short 79 00:02:58,700 --> 00:03:00,633 but you know this is what we do when that happens 80 00:03:01,133 --> 00:03:02,233 yeah exactly 81 00:03:02,233 --> 00:03:02,400 like 82 00:03:02,400 --> 00:03:05,433 my wife came to me last week and was basically like 83 00:03:05,433 --> 00:03:07,700 my mother in law she has dementia 84 00:03:07,933 --> 00:03:10,000 and she's lived with us for about 10 years 85 00:03:10,000 --> 00:03:11,733 she's had the condition for 86 00:03:11,800 --> 00:03:11,933 the 87 00:03:11,933 --> 00:03:14,633 condition has been pronounced for about the last two 88 00:03:14,700 --> 00:03:16,333 and she came to me and she was just like 89 00:03:16,333 --> 00:03:19,700 I need you to be more of a rock than you have been 90 00:03:19,700 --> 00:03:21,400 and what she meant in that moment was 91 00:03:21,400 --> 00:03:23,533 I need you to sort of like see me 92 00:03:23,533 --> 00:03:25,200 extend the sort of kindness that 93 00:03:25,200 --> 00:03:27,400 you know you used to do all the time to me 94 00:03:27,400 --> 00:03:27,800 uh 95 00:03:27,800 --> 00:03:32,533 cause I was concerned slash consumed with my own career 96 00:03:32,533 --> 00:03:35,133 you know our kids are all teenagers now and 97 00:03:35,333 --> 00:03:37,300 and there's a lot of activities 98 00:03:37,300 --> 00:03:38,533 that are constantly going on 99 00:03:38,533 --> 00:03:41,700 my days seem sort of busier than ever yeah 100 00:03:41,700 --> 00:03:44,933 I'd sort of forgotten about her and that mix 101 00:03:44,933 --> 00:03:46,366 and so it's just been like a 102 00:03:46,366 --> 00:03:49,166 a conscious effort the last week or so to be like okay 103 00:03:49,166 --> 00:03:50,700 here I am what do you need 104 00:03:50,700 --> 00:03:53,166 um let's take a moment like check in with you 105 00:03:53,166 --> 00:03:54,166 you know and by the way 106 00:03:54,166 --> 00:03:56,433 like doing that you know 107 00:03:56,433 --> 00:03:59,033 she said to me I don't know that 108 00:03:59,033 --> 00:03:59,833 there have been times where 109 00:03:59,833 --> 00:04:01,966 I don't want to bring my own problems to you 110 00:04:01,966 --> 00:04:04,066 because I'm I see like 111 00:04:04,733 --> 00:04:06,933 you know concerns you have about work 112 00:04:06,933 --> 00:04:09,233 or concerns with the kids or whatever 113 00:04:09,233 --> 00:04:11,133 and it's like why should I add one more thing 114 00:04:11,133 --> 00:04:12,200 and that honestly man 115 00:04:12,200 --> 00:04:14,533 like that was even worse because it's like 116 00:04:14,533 --> 00:04:16,633 oh my God like if you feel that you can't come to me 117 00:04:16,633 --> 00:04:19,000 then then this isn't like this 118 00:04:19,000 --> 00:04:20,533 I'm not doing my job right 119 00:04:20,533 --> 00:04:22,600 so there is something fundamentally broken 120 00:04:22,600 --> 00:04:23,100 I mean that 121 00:04:23,100 --> 00:04:26,600 that is the the wing is off the plane at that moment 122 00:04:26,866 --> 00:04:28,033 yeah so then it's 123 00:04:28,033 --> 00:04:29,033 then it's a question of okay 124 00:04:29,033 --> 00:04:29,833 well it's actually 125 00:04:29,833 --> 00:04:34,033 I feel better I feel in some sense rejuvenated 126 00:04:34,300 --> 00:04:36,333 if I know that you can come to me right 127 00:04:36,333 --> 00:04:37,300 so whatever 128 00:04:38,333 --> 00:04:40,633 whatever concern you think I have 129 00:04:40,633 --> 00:04:43,633 which is she's a we've been together more than 20 years 130 00:04:43,633 --> 00:04:45,300 she can read me quite well 131 00:04:45,300 --> 00:04:46,133 yeah um 132 00:04:46,333 --> 00:04:48,400 just know that like if you come to me 133 00:04:48,400 --> 00:04:51,433 I can pivot from that uh 134 00:04:51,833 --> 00:04:52,600 and you know 135 00:04:52,600 --> 00:04:53,233 like I 136 00:04:53,233 --> 00:04:54,233 I so OK 137 00:04:54,233 --> 00:04:56,333 so like what does it mean to be a modern man 138 00:04:57,400 --> 00:04:59,233 my dad my grandfather 139 00:04:59,233 --> 00:05:02,000 they were uh farmers 140 00:05:02,000 --> 00:05:03,833 they grew up in Iowa they rent the 141 00:05:03,833 --> 00:05:05,300 I'm the fifth I'm the sixth gen 142 00:05:05,300 --> 00:05:05,900 well that was 1 143 00:05:05,900 --> 00:05:06,133 2 3 144 00:05:06,133 --> 00:05:06,933 4 5 145 00:05:06,966 --> 00:05:08,900 I'm the fifth generation uh 146 00:05:09,166 --> 00:05:11,133 farmer son of a farmer 147 00:05:11,133 --> 00:05:13,866 and I did not farm but everybody before me did 148 00:05:14,000 --> 00:05:17,833 yeah and so the men that I'm familiar with are guys who 149 00:05:17,933 --> 00:05:20,133 you know fix everything before them 150 00:05:20,133 --> 00:05:21,900 don't say a whole lot 151 00:05:22,566 --> 00:05:25,100 are are reserved and strong 152 00:05:25,700 --> 00:05:27,633 and I thought that 153 00:05:27,633 --> 00:05:29,366 that would be the way to lead my life 154 00:05:29,366 --> 00:05:30,833 and to a certain extent it is right 155 00:05:30,833 --> 00:05:31,633 like for a long time 156 00:05:31,633 --> 00:05:34,500 I was in corporate media and I would always 157 00:05:34,500 --> 00:05:36,700 when I was used to bitch about where I worked 158 00:05:36,700 --> 00:05:37,366 my dad would be like 159 00:05:37,366 --> 00:05:39,133 I literally don't know how to help you here because 160 00:05:39,133 --> 00:05:40,666 like I've been haha 161 00:05:41,933 --> 00:05:42,700 right so he's like 162 00:05:42,700 --> 00:05:44,133 I don't know what it means to have all these 163 00:05:44,133 --> 00:05:46,700 this upper management I was at ESPN for a long time 164 00:05:46,700 --> 00:05:47,300 so it's like yeah 165 00:05:47,300 --> 00:05:48,233 you know just the 166 00:05:48,233 --> 00:05:50,600 the layers and layers between ESPN and Disney 167 00:05:50,600 --> 00:05:53,433 of management and navigating that anyway 168 00:05:53,433 --> 00:05:54,233 the upshot is 169 00:05:54,233 --> 00:05:56,233 I've been on my own now for the past 5 years 170 00:05:56,233 --> 00:05:57,500 and a certain respect 171 00:05:57,500 --> 00:06:00,433 like what I saw as a kid was very helpful for me to 172 00:06:00,433 --> 00:06:01,000 like you know 173 00:06:01,000 --> 00:06:03,033 figure out how to do things on my own now 174 00:06:03,400 --> 00:06:06,766 at the same time my dad never saw a therapist 175 00:06:06,766 --> 00:06:08,166 you know I see a therapist 176 00:06:08,166 --> 00:06:12,133 I see it as almost like a physical check in right 177 00:06:12,133 --> 00:06:12,933 like why not 178 00:06:12,933 --> 00:06:15,733 talk to somebody about what's going on in my life 179 00:06:15,733 --> 00:06:17,866 um I think that's very healthy 180 00:06:18,000 --> 00:06:18,900 you know uh 181 00:06:18,900 --> 00:06:22,133 so something that would have been verboten uh 182 00:06:22,133 --> 00:06:24,033 in my certainly in my grandfather 183 00:06:24,033 --> 00:06:25,433 I don't even think it was around right 184 00:06:25,433 --> 00:06:27,033 like 70 years ago right 185 00:06:27,033 --> 00:06:28,300 they didn't really exist right 186 00:06:28,300 --> 00:06:29,533 yeah yeah 187 00:06:29,566 --> 00:06:31,566 um and certainly like it 188 00:06:31,566 --> 00:06:33,500 you know my dad would have never done that 189 00:06:33,500 --> 00:06:35,400 but I talk with my dad about like 190 00:06:35,400 --> 00:06:36,933 what my therapist has told me 191 00:06:36,933 --> 00:06:38,433 and it's been incredibly helpful 192 00:06:38,433 --> 00:06:39,600 you know um 193 00:06:39,600 --> 00:06:41,300 so that's just it's just a 194 00:06:41,600 --> 00:06:42,966 I guess that's what I mean 195 00:06:42,966 --> 00:06:43,333 you know it's 196 00:06:43,333 --> 00:06:45,533 it's just a willingness to say 197 00:06:46,566 --> 00:06:50,900 okay where can I acknowledge vulnerability 198 00:06:50,900 --> 00:06:52,933 where can I acknowledge my own weakness 199 00:06:53,100 --> 00:06:56,233 how by acknowledging that vulnerability or weakness 200 00:06:56,566 --> 00:06:59,566 can you sort of accept it 201 00:06:59,566 --> 00:06:59,933 which is 202 00:06:59,933 --> 00:07:02,766 it itself turns it into its own form of strength right 203 00:07:02,766 --> 00:07:05,166 cause you come to understand yourself better yeah 204 00:07:05,166 --> 00:07:08,533 so that's that's how I try to live my life these days 205 00:07:08,533 --> 00:07:10,100 and that's how I try to 206 00:07:10,100 --> 00:07:12,100 that's what I try to tell the boys too 207 00:07:12,333 --> 00:07:13,333 you know in addition to like 208 00:07:13,333 --> 00:07:14,966 trying to get them to come to my Saturday morning 209 00:07:14,966 --> 00:07:16,366 boxing class which I go to 210 00:07:16,366 --> 00:07:17,433 which is awesome right 211 00:07:17,433 --> 00:07:18,600 but like it's there's just 212 00:07:18,600 --> 00:07:19,766 it's just the Yin and Yang of 213 00:07:19,766 --> 00:07:21,033 of life and and 214 00:07:21,033 --> 00:07:24,833 and from that change from boyhood to manhood yeah 215 00:07:24,833 --> 00:07:26,733 it's you know um 216 00:07:27,000 --> 00:07:28,566 one of the metaphors that 217 00:07:28,566 --> 00:07:32,133 that I like to use is who's the stronger boxer 218 00:07:32,433 --> 00:07:35,466 the guy who has an impenetrable block 219 00:07:36,100 --> 00:07:38,200 or the guy who doesn't have any block at all 220 00:07:38,200 --> 00:07:39,033 he doesn't even need it 221 00:07:39,033 --> 00:07:41,666 because you can just literally wail on the guy 222 00:07:41,766 --> 00:07:43,866 and it doesn't affect him 223 00:07:44,400 --> 00:07:45,500 yeah you know 224 00:07:45,500 --> 00:07:47,033 and that's the difference between 225 00:07:47,300 --> 00:07:50,266 putting all those walls up and 226 00:07:50,300 --> 00:07:52,200 and being vulnerable yeah 227 00:07:52,200 --> 00:07:52,600 and they so 228 00:07:52,600 --> 00:07:55,600 so one of the I've seen a therapist 229 00:07:55,600 --> 00:07:59,133 off and on now for about six or seven years 230 00:07:59,533 --> 00:08:01,933 one of the things that he said that really resonated 231 00:08:01,933 --> 00:08:03,966 this is years ago is he goes 232 00:08:03,966 --> 00:08:06,466 you want the tactile strength of bridges 233 00:08:06,633 --> 00:08:10,333 and his own father was some sort of engineer 234 00:08:10,633 --> 00:08:12,200 I wanna say a civil engineer 235 00:08:12,200 --> 00:08:13,933 which is where he would have Learned about this 236 00:08:13,933 --> 00:08:15,566 do you know much about bridges Shawn 237 00:08:15,566 --> 00:08:17,100 like how they're actually no restricted 238 00:08:17,633 --> 00:08:19,033 OK so okay 239 00:08:19,033 --> 00:08:21,933 I didn't know this either until my therapist and I 240 00:08:21,933 --> 00:08:23,833 I don't know actually I never fact checked this 241 00:08:23,833 --> 00:08:24,933 I just took his word at it 242 00:08:24,933 --> 00:08:25,800 so right 243 00:08:26,500 --> 00:08:29,800 if any engineer I think I'm sure people will chime in 244 00:08:30,033 --> 00:08:31,100 yeah I'll be like 245 00:08:31,100 --> 00:08:33,766 actually that's not quite so he's like 246 00:08:33,766 --> 00:08:34,766 imagine he's like 247 00:08:34,766 --> 00:08:36,533 imagine the Brooklyn Bridge right 248 00:08:36,533 --> 00:08:37,300 and I said OK 249 00:08:37,300 --> 00:08:39,033 I've been across it many times 250 00:08:39,033 --> 00:08:40,033 he's like OK 251 00:08:40,033 --> 00:08:42,133 what do you think that bridge is made of 252 00:08:42,133 --> 00:08:44,833 and is it made of just you know uh 253 00:08:44,833 --> 00:08:46,433 absolute like 254 00:08:46,433 --> 00:08:48,300 tiled in metal 255 00:08:48,366 --> 00:08:51,733 where you cannot turn a screw another inch 256 00:08:51,833 --> 00:08:54,900 or when you look at a bridge 257 00:08:55,300 --> 00:08:57,900 and if you take an area or see me a side view of it 258 00:08:57,900 --> 00:09:00,233 as if as if from a drone were approaching it 259 00:09:00,233 --> 00:09:01,766 he goes if you look at it closely 260 00:09:01,766 --> 00:09:04,333 what you actually see is the bridge moving a little bit 261 00:09:04,333 --> 00:09:06,333 yeah which looks almost scary right 262 00:09:06,333 --> 00:09:08,333 but he's like that's actually intentional 263 00:09:08,366 --> 00:09:09,100 cause it's it's 264 00:09:09,100 --> 00:09:10,433 it's called you know 265 00:09:10,433 --> 00:09:14,566 it's it needs to have a little bit of flexibility 266 00:09:14,566 --> 00:09:16,266 without that flexibility 267 00:09:16,833 --> 00:09:19,233 uh what would happen is the 268 00:09:19,433 --> 00:09:21,800 the construction of it would ultimately just corrode 269 00:09:21,800 --> 00:09:23,233 it would collapse beneath itself 270 00:09:23,233 --> 00:09:24,200 because you're constantly 271 00:09:24,200 --> 00:09:25,733 it's constantly so tense 272 00:09:25,933 --> 00:09:28,100 so it's that what he called the tensile strength of 273 00:09:28,100 --> 00:09:30,100 of bridges is to actually make sure 274 00:09:30,166 --> 00:09:32,900 there's a little bit of fallability built in 275 00:09:32,900 --> 00:09:33,433 yeah and it's so 276 00:09:33,433 --> 00:09:34,766 in other words like to extend the metaphor 277 00:09:34,766 --> 00:09:36,100 a little bit of vulnerability 278 00:09:36,300 --> 00:09:38,000 yeah and I just think that's so true 279 00:09:38,000 --> 00:09:38,800 like if 280 00:09:38,800 --> 00:09:40,766 if we as men spend our entire time like 281 00:09:40,766 --> 00:09:42,000 I'm a tough guy I'm this 282 00:09:42,000 --> 00:09:42,733 I'm that 283 00:09:42,733 --> 00:09:47,100 if all you do is project that image man 284 00:09:47,100 --> 00:09:48,500 you are brittle right 285 00:09:48,500 --> 00:09:51,833 like you will there is nothing you can withstand 286 00:09:51,833 --> 00:09:53,500 if you're constantly tense 287 00:09:54,433 --> 00:09:57,400 but if you allow yourself to accept basically 288 00:09:57,400 --> 00:09:59,700 life and all your 289 00:09:59,700 --> 00:10:02,533 all the entire emotional range that comes with life 290 00:10:03,166 --> 00:10:05,333 I think I'll probably in your better spot 291 00:10:05,500 --> 00:10:06,533 and I don't want a man 292 00:10:06,533 --> 00:10:07,633 I hope that doesn't sound preachy 293 00:10:07,633 --> 00:10:09,500 because it's not as if I always knew this 294 00:10:09,500 --> 00:10:10,533 in fact again 295 00:10:10,533 --> 00:10:11,300 like fatherhood 296 00:10:11,300 --> 00:10:14,000 I would argue I'm still learning this day after day 297 00:10:14,233 --> 00:10:15,866 but it's something I've come to learn 298 00:10:15,966 --> 00:10:18,966 you know somewhat now yeah 299 00:10:18,966 --> 00:10:21,200 I I think that that absolutely ring 300 00:10:21,200 --> 00:10:26,466 that absolutely rings true for me as well and it's like 301 00:10:26,733 --> 00:10:28,200 part of the definition of 302 00:10:28,600 --> 00:10:30,800 masculinity is being a protector 303 00:10:31,400 --> 00:10:33,866 yeah and the 304 00:10:34,033 --> 00:10:36,333 almost trivial version of being a protector 305 00:10:36,333 --> 00:10:38,433 is being a tough guy yeah 306 00:10:38,433 --> 00:10:40,533 right being willing to get in people's faces 307 00:10:40,533 --> 00:10:41,933 being strong you know 308 00:10:41,933 --> 00:10:43,400 I can I can beat anybody up 309 00:10:43,400 --> 00:10:44,266 all of that stuff 310 00:10:44,266 --> 00:10:46,133 and yeah I mean 311 00:10:46,133 --> 00:10:46,566 sometimes 312 00:10:46,566 --> 00:10:48,633 that's what's necessary in order to be a protector 313 00:10:48,933 --> 00:10:52,300 that's certainly what was necessary 30,000 years ago 314 00:10:52,300 --> 00:10:53,666 to be a protector sure 315 00:10:53,833 --> 00:10:55,600 but in our modern world 316 00:10:55,600 --> 00:10:58,300 being a protector is about much more than that 317 00:10:58,700 --> 00:10:59,600 and in fact 318 00:10:59,600 --> 00:11:02,400 often times it's about not being that at all 319 00:11:02,766 --> 00:11:04,000 because 320 00:11:04,000 --> 00:11:07,533 if you're demonstrating this really tough facade 321 00:11:07,533 --> 00:11:09,800 to your to your boy 322 00:11:10,400 --> 00:11:12,233 and that's what you're modeling to them 323 00:11:12,233 --> 00:11:13,900 and that's what they think they need to do 324 00:11:13,900 --> 00:11:15,833 in order to make their way in the world 325 00:11:15,833 --> 00:11:16,433 and a lot of ways 326 00:11:16,433 --> 00:11:19,100 the world is not going to be conducive to that 327 00:11:19,100 --> 00:11:20,266 especially now 328 00:11:20,900 --> 00:11:24,700 and you're gonna I'm not protecting your kid yeah 329 00:11:24,700 --> 00:11:26,166 I also think what you're doing 330 00:11:26,166 --> 00:11:29,400 if you constantly project that image 331 00:11:30,233 --> 00:11:32,933 that you run into conflict with people 332 00:11:32,933 --> 00:11:34,800 who are doing the exact same thing right 333 00:11:34,800 --> 00:11:38,200 you kind of attract it you attract that defensiveness 334 00:11:38,600 --> 00:11:39,666 yes uh 335 00:11:40,166 --> 00:11:41,600 and it just I don't know 336 00:11:42,766 --> 00:11:43,566 I 337 00:11:44,400 --> 00:11:47,200 I I don't wanna sound like old man shouting at clouds 338 00:11:47,200 --> 00:11:48,200 but when I see like 339 00:11:48,200 --> 00:11:49,500 when I go to the gym 340 00:11:49,800 --> 00:11:52,133 and I can see the younger guys who are 341 00:11:52,133 --> 00:11:53,233 you know teenagers or 342 00:11:53,233 --> 00:11:54,966 and I was probably this way too 343 00:11:54,966 --> 00:11:56,900 like when I was a teenager in my 20s 344 00:11:56,966 --> 00:11:58,600 and I can see the guys where it's like 345 00:11:58,600 --> 00:12:01,800 it's all I'm the alpha through here right 346 00:12:01,833 --> 00:12:04,366 yeah and you can almost see man 347 00:12:04,366 --> 00:12:05,900 there's something that 348 00:12:06,033 --> 00:12:07,966 is probably broken inside of you 349 00:12:07,966 --> 00:12:09,533 for you to project it like that 350 00:12:09,533 --> 00:12:11,966 cause there isn't necessarily like a quiet 351 00:12:11,966 --> 00:12:13,233 easy confidence 352 00:12:13,233 --> 00:12:16,800 it's something that it's just it's performative 353 00:12:16,800 --> 00:12:18,433 it's posturing yeah 354 00:12:18,566 --> 00:12:20,266 and they don't even really understand 355 00:12:21,133 --> 00:12:22,733 how silly they look to everyone else 356 00:12:22,733 --> 00:12:24,700 I I used to have this trainer 357 00:12:25,100 --> 00:12:27,200 uh back when I lived in Dallas and and the trainer 358 00:12:27,200 --> 00:12:28,533 he owned this this uh 359 00:12:28,533 --> 00:12:31,433 kind of fancy gym in North Dallas 360 00:12:31,566 --> 00:12:34,033 and he was training me one time 361 00:12:34,033 --> 00:12:36,333 and there were a couple guys in the gym who were 362 00:12:36,333 --> 00:12:37,566 who were who were doing that 363 00:12:37,566 --> 00:12:40,133 kind of making the performative noises and and 364 00:12:40,133 --> 00:12:40,700 and stuff 365 00:12:40,700 --> 00:12:43,133 and he told me this story about he used to train this 366 00:12:43,133 --> 00:12:45,033 uh this old guy 367 00:12:45,033 --> 00:12:49,900 this 74 year old guy but the guy was ripped 368 00:12:50,733 --> 00:12:54,166 and these when he first opened the gym 369 00:12:54,166 --> 00:12:56,733 there were these muscle heads that that were there 370 00:12:56,733 --> 00:12:58,933 and they were doing that making a ton of noise 371 00:12:58,933 --> 00:13:00,466 and they were um 372 00:13:00,633 --> 00:13:03,433 they were doing chest presses with bar 373 00:13:03,500 --> 00:13:05,900 with dumbbells and you know 374 00:13:05,900 --> 00:13:09,033 hundred and ten pound dumbbells and just like no 375 00:13:09,400 --> 00:13:11,533 I'm pushing it up there and then dropping the weights 376 00:13:12,133 --> 00:13:13,733 and you know 377 00:13:13,733 --> 00:13:14,800 you're not supposed to drop the weights 378 00:13:14,800 --> 00:13:18,700 so so my trainer he takes this 74 year old man 379 00:13:19,166 --> 00:13:21,000 over to the bench where they are 380 00:13:21,366 --> 00:13:23,700 and he's very soft spoken guy 381 00:13:23,700 --> 00:13:27,933 very built and he says do you mind if we work in here 382 00:13:28,166 --> 00:13:29,166 and of course the guys are like 383 00:13:29,166 --> 00:13:29,533 yeah yeah 384 00:13:29,533 --> 00:13:30,766 no problem and you know 385 00:13:30,766 --> 00:13:33,166 here they have this 74 year old man 386 00:13:33,166 --> 00:13:34,333 who's now sitting down the bench 387 00:13:34,333 --> 00:13:36,833 he picks up these hundred and ten pound uh 388 00:13:36,933 --> 00:13:43,200 dumbbells and proceeds to do a set of 10 chest presses 389 00:13:43,200 --> 00:13:45,066 using these exact same dumbbells 390 00:13:45,166 --> 00:13:48,866 and then sets them down very gently on the ground 391 00:13:49,233 --> 00:13:51,666 and then my trainer just goes 392 00:13:52,000 --> 00:13:55,200 just nods at him and walks away 393 00:13:56,800 --> 00:13:59,433 that is masculinity to me 394 00:13:59,500 --> 00:14:02,100 that is that's so good 395 00:14:02,100 --> 00:14:03,733 like I I love the NFL 396 00:14:03,733 --> 00:14:04,200 well uh 397 00:14:04,200 --> 00:14:05,533 I have actually a a 398 00:14:05,533 --> 00:14:07,200 a love hate relationship with the NFL 399 00:14:07,200 --> 00:14:08,633 cause I love to watch the NFL 400 00:14:08,633 --> 00:14:11,233 um and I also see like the CTE and I'm like 401 00:14:11,233 --> 00:14:12,700 oh god how many guys are gonna 402 00:14:12,700 --> 00:14:13,800 when I watch Red Zone I'm like 403 00:14:13,800 --> 00:14:15,966 how many of these guys are gonna end up in 10 years 404 00:14:15,966 --> 00:14:17,466 you know like unable to move 405 00:14:17,500 --> 00:14:19,733 but what I tell my own boys is like 406 00:14:19,733 --> 00:14:21,333 what I remember from my youth 407 00:14:21,566 --> 00:14:22,766 do you remember this what 408 00:14:22,766 --> 00:14:23,966 what Barry Sanders would do 409 00:14:23,966 --> 00:14:25,500 every time he'd score a touchdown 410 00:14:26,166 --> 00:14:29,533 I don't know he just hand the ball to the ref 411 00:14:30,033 --> 00:14:32,300 why because it was expected 412 00:14:32,633 --> 00:14:33,533 like Barry 413 00:14:33,533 --> 00:14:35,500 of course he's got Barry Sanders is basically like 414 00:14:35,500 --> 00:14:37,433 of course I'm gonna score a touchdown 415 00:14:37,433 --> 00:14:39,200 why should I celebrate that 416 00:14:39,233 --> 00:14:40,966 yeah oh 417 00:14:40,966 --> 00:14:43,600 that is so powerful I absolutely that's like 418 00:14:43,600 --> 00:14:45,966 I love it it was like the ultimate flex 419 00:14:45,966 --> 00:14:49,000 here you go I'm gonna go back to sidelines now yeah 420 00:14:49,000 --> 00:14:51,800 we we talked a little bit about your um 421 00:14:51,800 --> 00:14:52,800 your journalism 422 00:14:52,800 --> 00:14:55,833 your journalism career and and ESPN stuff like that 423 00:14:55,833 --> 00:14:56,100 you know 424 00:14:56,100 --> 00:14:59,133 one of the things I just absolutely admire about you is 425 00:14:59,133 --> 00:15:02,500 um it seems to me and you can correct me if I'm wrong 426 00:15:02,500 --> 00:15:05,200 but it seems to me you looked around and realized that 427 00:15:05,200 --> 00:15:06,733 journalism was collapsing 428 00:15:07,400 --> 00:15:08,933 yeah and 429 00:15:09,100 --> 00:15:11,133 and I can just imagine what you were going through 430 00:15:11,133 --> 00:15:13,333 and just like I gotta figure something out here 431 00:15:13,600 --> 00:15:15,833 and you reinvented yourself 432 00:15:15,966 --> 00:15:17,933 and you reinvented yourself essentially 433 00:15:17,933 --> 00:15:20,833 just by putting your craft out there 434 00:15:20,833 --> 00:15:24,566 and inviting the world to comment on it and and 435 00:15:24,566 --> 00:15:26,233 and experience it 436 00:15:26,233 --> 00:15:28,033 and experience the world through your eyes 437 00:15:28,033 --> 00:15:33,233 and that gave rise in my view to some really 438 00:15:33,233 --> 00:15:35,200 really amazing storytelling 439 00:15:35,366 --> 00:15:36,100 what oh 440 00:15:36,100 --> 00:15:36,900 thank you 441 00:15:37,500 --> 00:15:40,433 what what did that season in your life 442 00:15:40,633 --> 00:15:41,733 and how did you think about that 443 00:15:41,733 --> 00:15:44,600 and how what did that teach you about courage and 444 00:15:44,600 --> 00:15:47,100 and failure and resilience and 445 00:15:47,100 --> 00:15:48,533 and modeling that for your kids 446 00:15:49,033 --> 00:15:52,633 well so I got laid off from ESPN when I was 40 447 00:15:53,000 --> 00:15:56,400 I'm 44 now about to turn 45 448 00:15:56,500 --> 00:15:58,500 and so what I could tell you is these 449 00:15:58,500 --> 00:16:00,900 I Learned far more about myself 450 00:16:00,933 --> 00:16:04,366 the last five years than I did in the first forty yeah 451 00:16:04,366 --> 00:16:05,600 far more myself 452 00:16:06,000 --> 00:16:09,600 and like one of the first things you learn 453 00:16:09,600 --> 00:16:10,800 or I Learned 454 00:16:11,400 --> 00:16:12,200 uh 455 00:16:12,700 --> 00:16:15,200 okay so let me sort of set up the mind that like what 456 00:16:15,200 --> 00:16:17,933 what my wife and I were thinking we 457 00:16:17,933 --> 00:16:18,800 it wasn't 458 00:16:18,800 --> 00:16:23,500 it wasn't hard to see that the magazine style 459 00:16:23,500 --> 00:16:27,000 the magazine journalism I loved that I grew up adoring 460 00:16:27,000 --> 00:16:29,066 that I thought I would do for quite a while 461 00:16:29,100 --> 00:16:30,766 like come 20 2010 462 00:16:30,766 --> 00:16:34,966 2012 certainly by like 2015 I was like 463 00:16:34,966 --> 00:16:35,500 I don't know 464 00:16:35,500 --> 00:16:37,400 so sure how much longer this is gonna be around 465 00:16:37,400 --> 00:16:39,000 so I start to pivot at that point 466 00:16:39,000 --> 00:16:42,033 just thinking about like what else could I do 467 00:16:42,300 --> 00:16:45,600 and I thought well if I stay in corporate media 468 00:16:45,600 --> 00:16:50,366 I'm just gonna basically be like jumping from you know 469 00:16:50,366 --> 00:16:51,166 um 470 00:16:51,700 --> 00:16:55,300 thawing iceberg to thawing iceberg right um 471 00:16:55,333 --> 00:16:57,633 and I don't know how much longer I'm gonna keep myself 472 00:16:57,633 --> 00:16:58,966 from above water 473 00:16:58,966 --> 00:17:00,433 if I do that yeah 474 00:17:00,433 --> 00:17:02,500 but maybe if I try to go out on my own 475 00:17:02,500 --> 00:17:05,266 I'll be on a little bit like better Terra firma 476 00:17:05,533 --> 00:17:08,900 and so what I began to think about like was what what 477 00:17:08,900 --> 00:17:09,833 what would that look like 478 00:17:09,833 --> 00:17:11,833 so I put I began to put in place 479 00:17:12,033 --> 00:17:13,633 what I really started to do is put myself 480 00:17:13,633 --> 00:17:15,333 through my own MBA like okay 481 00:17:15,333 --> 00:17:17,200 well what does it mean to like go out on your own 482 00:17:17,200 --> 00:17:17,900 and and 483 00:17:17,900 --> 00:17:19,766 and what I Learned and I would say this to anybody 484 00:17:19,766 --> 00:17:21,933 this isn't just relative to the creative types 485 00:17:21,933 --> 00:17:23,633 though I would say this is particularly true to 486 00:17:23,633 --> 00:17:27,733 to creative types you can take your existing skill 487 00:17:27,733 --> 00:17:30,000 set and figure out the ways in which 488 00:17:30,000 --> 00:17:32,200 it's applicable to the marketplace 489 00:17:32,366 --> 00:17:34,933 so I had for instance what what did that mean for me 490 00:17:34,933 --> 00:17:36,766 well um 491 00:17:36,766 --> 00:17:39,233 it meant starting a newsletter first off 492 00:17:39,233 --> 00:17:41,500 just so people would start to know who I am 493 00:17:41,733 --> 00:17:42,733 and at first 494 00:17:42,733 --> 00:17:44,633 it was gonna be in promotion of my first book 495 00:17:44,633 --> 00:17:45,766 which was called The Sabbath Tour 496 00:17:45,766 --> 00:17:47,800 and I quickly realized that like 497 00:17:48,000 --> 00:17:48,400 like 498 00:17:48,400 --> 00:17:51,433 if if I if I just promote the book week after week 499 00:17:51,433 --> 00:17:52,866 nobody wants to read that 500 00:17:53,400 --> 00:17:56,300 nobody wants to tune in for the commercials yeah 501 00:17:56,300 --> 00:17:57,100 nobody wants that 502 00:17:57,100 --> 00:17:59,133 so then so then like around like week 3 503 00:17:59,133 --> 00:18:01,466 I pivot to well maybe I could sort of like 504 00:18:01,566 --> 00:18:03,766 tell them what I had Learned 505 00:18:03,766 --> 00:18:05,500 because I I had not only by that point 506 00:18:05,500 --> 00:18:06,733 been like a writer and editor 507 00:18:06,733 --> 00:18:09,000 but I had Learned from I had the good fortune 508 00:18:09,000 --> 00:18:11,533 be published in The New Yorker and Esquire 509 00:18:11,533 --> 00:18:15,033 and my my my agent was the former editor in chief 510 00:18:15,033 --> 00:18:16,633 of Esquire magazine David Granger 511 00:18:16,633 --> 00:18:19,700 who in the magazine world is like an absolute giant 512 00:18:19,700 --> 00:18:21,633 like he's on the Mount Rushmore of 513 00:18:21,633 --> 00:18:23,800 of giants in that field and so 514 00:18:23,800 --> 00:18:25,533 what I basically started to do in the newsletter was 515 00:18:25,533 --> 00:18:25,833 like okay 516 00:18:25,833 --> 00:18:25,966 well 517 00:18:25,966 --> 00:18:28,633 just like here's I was I was approaching for is like 518 00:18:28,633 --> 00:18:29,900 here's what I've Learned right 519 00:18:29,900 --> 00:18:32,000 and it's just like little hints and tips 520 00:18:32,000 --> 00:18:33,300 and if you're doing this 521 00:18:33,300 --> 00:18:35,533 consider that like here's how you do interviews 522 00:18:35,633 --> 00:18:37,800 here's how you can consider writing an opening 523 00:18:37,800 --> 00:18:40,466 like here's how you consider can doing a structure 524 00:18:40,566 --> 00:18:42,433 and it started to you know 525 00:18:42,466 --> 00:18:43,833 I don't want to say take off 526 00:18:43,833 --> 00:18:46,433 because I don't have like hundreds of thousands of 527 00:18:46,433 --> 00:18:49,100 of subscribers but there is like a dedicated audience 528 00:18:49,100 --> 00:18:52,233 like there's people when I looked even today at 529 00:18:52,400 --> 00:18:53,100 you know most 530 00:18:53,100 --> 00:18:55,033 most of the time you'll get a um 531 00:18:55,700 --> 00:18:58,033 you'll get an open I'm on substack now 532 00:18:58,033 --> 00:18:58,733 but like 533 00:18:58,733 --> 00:19:00,300 and it doesn't really matter what platform you're on 534 00:19:00,300 --> 00:19:00,633 you'll get like 535 00:19:00,633 --> 00:19:03,500 an open rate of something like 20 to 40% 536 00:19:03,500 --> 00:19:06,800 mine has consistently been above like 50% for years 537 00:19:06,800 --> 00:19:08,366 and it's again it's not a massive audience 538 00:19:08,366 --> 00:19:10,000 but it's just like the people who come to it 539 00:19:10,000 --> 00:19:11,766 like really do want to know this stuff and they want 540 00:19:11,766 --> 00:19:13,333 and they check in week after week 541 00:19:13,600 --> 00:19:15,633 so that was helpful and then from there I was like okay 542 00:19:15,633 --> 00:19:16,600 well that's cool 543 00:19:16,700 --> 00:19:18,533 and then like I started to get emails from people like 544 00:19:18,533 --> 00:19:21,000 wait can you go deeper on this subject or that subject 545 00:19:21,000 --> 00:19:23,200 and so that created that LED me to think well 546 00:19:23,200 --> 00:19:25,266 what if I actually created like a digital course 547 00:19:25,733 --> 00:19:27,233 and so by the time I get laid off 548 00:19:27,233 --> 00:19:27,933 I'm like okay 549 00:19:27,933 --> 00:19:29,833 well what if I started this digital course 550 00:19:29,833 --> 00:19:31,933 and this course is called the storytelling you 551 00:19:31,933 --> 00:19:34,800 and we're I actually have to revamp it a little bit now 552 00:19:34,800 --> 00:19:36,433 um because it's like 553 00:19:36,433 --> 00:19:38,433 the idea of just like doing stuff for long 554 00:19:38,433 --> 00:19:40,566 form journalism like that is itself like 555 00:19:40,566 --> 00:19:42,400 I gotta gear it more toward now 556 00:19:42,400 --> 00:19:44,633 like entrepreneurship and maybe like um 557 00:19:44,900 --> 00:19:46,400 book writing but be that as it may like it 558 00:19:46,400 --> 00:19:47,433 it launched it 559 00:19:47,433 --> 00:19:49,300 and I had cohorts and you were one of them 560 00:19:49,300 --> 00:19:50,566 you you took it at one point 561 00:19:50,566 --> 00:19:52,033 that's that's great thank you 562 00:19:52,033 --> 00:19:53,333 and but it was just basically like 563 00:19:53,333 --> 00:19:53,800 here's how to 564 00:19:53,800 --> 00:19:55,866 here's how to do the things that I've Learned right 565 00:19:55,933 --> 00:19:57,133 and then it's like okay 566 00:19:57,133 --> 00:19:59,000 how else can I be helpful to people 567 00:19:59,000 --> 00:20:00,333 um and I was like 568 00:20:00,333 --> 00:20:03,133 well I've I have published uh two books uh 569 00:20:03,133 --> 00:20:03,933 uh 570 00:20:04,100 --> 00:20:06,200 like a couple of years ago and people were like 571 00:20:06,200 --> 00:20:07,400 how do you write a book proposal 572 00:20:07,400 --> 00:20:09,300 and so I started to help people with that 573 00:20:09,333 --> 00:20:10,800 and then because I had experience 574 00:20:10,800 --> 00:20:13,100 like I I was both writing my own books 575 00:20:13,100 --> 00:20:15,600 and then helping to shape other books um 576 00:20:15,600 --> 00:20:15,833 you know 577 00:20:15,833 --> 00:20:18,300 like the memoirs of like famous people and what not 578 00:20:18,300 --> 00:20:20,200 and couple of them have done really well 579 00:20:20,200 --> 00:20:21,733 you know on the times best seller list 580 00:20:21,733 --> 00:20:22,933 and so now it's like okay 581 00:20:22,933 --> 00:20:24,366 well I can help other people do that 582 00:20:24,366 --> 00:20:27,800 I guess my point here is that I never thought to myself 583 00:20:27,800 --> 00:20:28,333 well actually I 584 00:20:28,333 --> 00:20:29,733 I never thought to myself okay 585 00:20:29,733 --> 00:20:32,000 I'm gonna just like completely reinvent myself 586 00:20:32,000 --> 00:20:34,400 I thought how can I take my existing skill set 587 00:20:34,400 --> 00:20:35,766 and basically figure out like 588 00:20:35,766 --> 00:20:37,533 are there things that people would want 589 00:20:37,533 --> 00:20:38,500 you know like 590 00:20:38,633 --> 00:20:40,166 are there things that people desire are 591 00:20:40,166 --> 00:20:42,000 do I know something that's just 592 00:20:42,000 --> 00:20:44,000 maybe a little bit more advanced than what somebody 593 00:20:44,000 --> 00:20:45,333 else knows and if so 594 00:20:45,333 --> 00:20:46,733 would they pay for the privilege of learning 595 00:20:46,733 --> 00:20:49,600 more about that or me helping them directly with that 596 00:20:49,600 --> 00:20:51,300 right and I still like my 597 00:20:51,300 --> 00:20:53,666 my primary focus is still writing books 598 00:20:53,833 --> 00:20:55,766 I've had a little bit of good fortune with Hollywood 599 00:20:55,766 --> 00:20:58,333 so now I also oscillate between writing books and like 600 00:20:58,500 --> 00:21:00,333 production and and uh 601 00:21:00,333 --> 00:21:01,966 and screenplays and whatnot 602 00:21:01,966 --> 00:21:03,233 but when I'm not doing that 603 00:21:03,233 --> 00:21:04,933 like the majority of my time these days is 604 00:21:04,933 --> 00:21:06,066 is spent either 605 00:21:06,166 --> 00:21:08,133 trying to consult people in a group setting 606 00:21:08,166 --> 00:21:09,700 like what the storytelling you is 607 00:21:09,700 --> 00:21:12,433 or consult people one on one with like books and 608 00:21:12,433 --> 00:21:14,600 you know I'm not gonna say it's easy 609 00:21:14,733 --> 00:21:17,766 but oh my god like that transition there was Sean 610 00:21:17,766 --> 00:21:18,933 like there were some times 611 00:21:18,933 --> 00:21:20,433 especially right around 2020 612 00:21:20,433 --> 00:21:24,366 2021 when it was really scary cause I didn't 613 00:21:24,366 --> 00:21:25,900 I never done this before 614 00:21:25,900 --> 00:21:32,766 it took so it took so much to figure out how can I 615 00:21:32,766 --> 00:21:35,300 how can I get past my own fear frankly 616 00:21:35,300 --> 00:21:37,433 like honestly I still deal with that 617 00:21:37,433 --> 00:21:39,833 I have this tendency to what if and 618 00:21:39,833 --> 00:21:44,100 and just and just throw out endless contingencies right 619 00:21:44,100 --> 00:21:45,733 um endless possibilities 620 00:21:46,100 --> 00:21:47,866 and the what ifs can go two ways 621 00:21:47,966 --> 00:21:49,200 the what ifs can go wow 622 00:21:49,200 --> 00:21:50,433 what if this really goes right 623 00:21:50,433 --> 00:21:51,833 and sometimes I'm on this high 624 00:21:51,833 --> 00:21:52,300 I'm like wow 625 00:21:52,300 --> 00:21:52,766 this could lead to 626 00:21:52,766 --> 00:21:55,300 this could lead to this and other times 627 00:21:55,300 --> 00:21:56,400 like if if I get a 628 00:21:56,400 --> 00:21:58,300 in a bad run or like 629 00:21:58,300 --> 00:21:59,700 a couple of deals don't go the way 630 00:21:59,700 --> 00:22:00,966 I'm hoping they will couple of 631 00:22:00,966 --> 00:22:03,233 you know arrangements with clients or whatever 632 00:22:03,333 --> 00:22:05,933 or they back out or whatever um 633 00:22:06,433 --> 00:22:09,300 then I can start to catastrophize 634 00:22:09,300 --> 00:22:11,333 and even today five years later 635 00:22:11,333 --> 00:22:12,333 I'm like okay 636 00:22:12,600 --> 00:22:14,900 is that real or is that just a fear speaking 637 00:22:14,900 --> 00:22:15,766 so you know 638 00:22:15,766 --> 00:22:16,833 this is I'm sorry 639 00:22:16,833 --> 00:22:18,000 a little bit of a soliloquy 640 00:22:18,000 --> 00:22:20,266 but but like when you asked 641 00:22:20,800 --> 00:22:21,966 you know what is it like 642 00:22:21,966 --> 00:22:22,600 and I said well 643 00:22:22,600 --> 00:22:25,133 I've Learned far more about myself than anything else 644 00:22:25,133 --> 00:22:27,733 these last five years I've really Learned what it means 645 00:22:27,733 --> 00:22:31,733 like to stare down fear and even leave aside that 646 00:22:31,733 --> 00:22:34,033 like look deep within myself and say 647 00:22:34,033 --> 00:22:36,600 what is it that is what is 648 00:22:36,600 --> 00:22:38,900 where is that emotion coming from 649 00:22:39,133 --> 00:22:43,433 what is what is motivating that emotion 650 00:22:44,000 --> 00:22:47,000 is it real can I counter that emotion 651 00:22:47,000 --> 00:22:48,333 if so how 652 00:22:48,566 --> 00:22:49,600 journaling prayer 653 00:22:49,600 --> 00:22:52,433 meditation sometimes a session with my therapist right 654 00:22:52,433 --> 00:22:54,633 like whatever the case may be 655 00:22:54,633 --> 00:22:56,200 and that's like 656 00:22:56,200 --> 00:22:59,433 I think I've heard this from other entrepreneurs 657 00:22:59,433 --> 00:23:01,233 and frankly people who are more successful than me 658 00:23:01,233 --> 00:23:02,066 like you know 659 00:23:02,433 --> 00:23:03,966 um make more money than I do though no 660 00:23:03,966 --> 00:23:05,466 money shouldn't be the only marker 661 00:23:05,700 --> 00:23:07,400 and they say that it's a good way to keep score 662 00:23:07,400 --> 00:23:10,000 it's at least a number yeah 663 00:23:10,133 --> 00:23:10,500 um 664 00:23:10,500 --> 00:23:12,766 but what they talk about is something that I think is 665 00:23:12,766 --> 00:23:14,800 really true in the end 666 00:23:14,800 --> 00:23:15,633 like 667 00:23:16,566 --> 00:23:19,733 it isn't so much about creating the business 668 00:23:20,366 --> 00:23:25,766 as it is creating the sort of true self right 669 00:23:25,766 --> 00:23:27,400 like creating the thing that's like 670 00:23:27,400 --> 00:23:30,900 able to stare past that thing 671 00:23:30,900 --> 00:23:33,300 that stare that really scares you 672 00:23:33,500 --> 00:23:36,400 and what's on the other side of that 673 00:23:36,600 --> 00:23:40,633 and what's it like to live out in that no man's land 674 00:23:40,933 --> 00:23:41,966 and you know 675 00:23:41,966 --> 00:23:43,800 how do you begin to navigate out there 676 00:23:43,800 --> 00:23:44,766 I I really 677 00:23:44,766 --> 00:23:46,833 I've for all of its tribulations 678 00:23:46,833 --> 00:23:48,400 and there have been quite a few the past 679 00:23:48,400 --> 00:23:49,900 you know five years 680 00:23:50,100 --> 00:23:51,733 there have been a lot there's been success too 681 00:23:51,733 --> 00:23:53,400 and I I've just really come to enjoy it 682 00:23:53,400 --> 00:23:55,733 I get why my dad has been a farmer for 683 00:23:55,733 --> 00:23:59,500 you know like 50+ years professionally right right 684 00:24:00,633 --> 00:24:01,200 yeah it 685 00:24:01,200 --> 00:24:02,700 it's almost like you took 686 00:24:03,033 --> 00:24:04,400 you turned a career in 687 00:24:04,400 --> 00:24:08,200 in journalism into a career in authenticity 688 00:24:08,966 --> 00:24:10,133 oh thank you man 689 00:24:10,133 --> 00:24:11,966 that's that's kind yeah 690 00:24:11,966 --> 00:24:12,400 yeah I 691 00:24:12,400 --> 00:24:13,900 I think I mean I 692 00:24:13,900 --> 00:24:18,133 I think if part of the reason you get such a a 693 00:24:18,766 --> 00:24:23,633 a great open rate on your newsletter is 694 00:24:23,633 --> 00:24:25,633 and I'm I'm a member I 695 00:24:25,633 --> 00:24:27,100 I read your newsletter 696 00:24:27,533 --> 00:24:31,333 and that's what it drips with authenticity 697 00:24:31,333 --> 00:24:33,000 you're just sharing your journey 698 00:24:33,000 --> 00:24:36,600 and it's you're the character 699 00:24:36,600 --> 00:24:38,700 and it is it is 700 00:24:39,100 --> 00:24:41,933 you have a craft a storytelling craft 701 00:24:41,933 --> 00:24:42,866 very good 702 00:24:42,966 --> 00:24:45,700 and you're telling your own story in that newsletter 703 00:24:45,700 --> 00:24:47,933 and it's really powerful and it's fun to watch 704 00:24:47,933 --> 00:24:50,433 and it's and you get good 705 00:24:50,466 --> 00:24:51,733 information out of it too 706 00:24:51,733 --> 00:24:53,566 you can apply it to your own life wow 707 00:24:53,566 --> 00:24:55,500 I yeah I could see how I could do that too 708 00:24:55,600 --> 00:24:57,633 and it's yeah it's really fun 709 00:24:57,733 --> 00:24:59,366 it's it's it's really great 710 00:24:59,366 --> 00:25:01,333 it's a really great read well 711 00:25:01,333 --> 00:25:02,433 thank you if I could just say like 712 00:25:02,433 --> 00:25:03,700 there's something applicable here 713 00:25:03,700 --> 00:25:06,133 to anybody else who's listening and thinking about 714 00:25:06,133 --> 00:25:09,000 how do I wanna try to do something 715 00:25:09,166 --> 00:25:11,933 I think I'm a big fan of chronicling kind of your point 716 00:25:11,933 --> 00:25:13,600 Sean like you chronicle your own life 717 00:25:13,600 --> 00:25:16,433 and if you have the courage to put that on the page 718 00:25:16,433 --> 00:25:18,433 not just the triumphs because honestly 719 00:25:18,433 --> 00:25:21,566 like like I've 720 00:25:21,566 --> 00:25:23,633 the the times that I've gotten far more 721 00:25:23,633 --> 00:25:25,633 responses from readers has been like 722 00:25:25,633 --> 00:25:28,500 the times where like I'm like 723 00:25:28,500 --> 00:25:30,400 I'm in a I don't I'm in a bad 724 00:25:30,400 --> 00:25:32,100 I'm in a sort of an uncertain spot right now 725 00:25:32,100 --> 00:25:33,766 and I'll put that in the newsletter right 726 00:25:33,766 --> 00:25:35,800 and I'll be like this is what's holding me up this week 727 00:25:35,800 --> 00:25:39,666 right and then the emails that those weeks are they've 728 00:25:40,033 --> 00:25:42,033 they're they're just like far more voluminous 729 00:25:42,033 --> 00:25:44,933 and that's amazing like yeah yeah yeah 730 00:25:44,933 --> 00:25:46,900 and I'll bet you're really supportive 731 00:25:47,533 --> 00:25:48,700 yeah exactly 732 00:25:48,700 --> 00:25:49,166 and I do 733 00:25:49,166 --> 00:25:51,500 I think it's because like people want to come back 734 00:25:51,500 --> 00:25:52,733 the idea of authenticity 735 00:25:53,366 --> 00:25:55,400 it's so easy to say 736 00:25:56,166 --> 00:25:56,633 yeah I 737 00:25:56,633 --> 00:25:57,733 I had the good fortune of 738 00:25:57,733 --> 00:25:59,700 one of the story that I wrote this year 739 00:25:59,766 --> 00:26:01,333 a couple years ago was made into a movie 740 00:26:01,333 --> 00:26:03,333 this year and I talked about that in the newsletter 741 00:26:03,333 --> 00:26:03,966 and people were like oh 742 00:26:03,966 --> 00:26:04,700 that's great 743 00:26:04,700 --> 00:26:07,500 but then like when I also said like two weeks later 744 00:26:07,500 --> 00:26:09,966 you know what it hasn't like I'm the same guy 745 00:26:09,966 --> 00:26:12,600 I thought it was gonna make me better and now I'm like 746 00:26:12,600 --> 00:26:15,233 oh shit like I'm the same guy with the same problems 747 00:26:15,233 --> 00:26:16,733 which I also wrote about like again 748 00:26:16,733 --> 00:26:18,733 somewhere between 2 weeks to 1 month later 749 00:26:18,900 --> 00:26:22,700 like that email got way more responses 750 00:26:23,333 --> 00:26:24,533 than I'm making this awesome movie 751 00:26:24,533 --> 00:26:26,333 yeah there is a lesson there 752 00:26:26,733 --> 00:26:27,466 yeah 753 00:26:27,500 --> 00:26:28,900 to close that thought out 754 00:26:29,033 --> 00:26:31,400 I think that it's because 755 00:26:32,133 --> 00:26:35,200 we are drawn far more to each other's flaws 756 00:26:35,200 --> 00:26:36,700 than we are our best features 757 00:26:37,033 --> 00:26:41,033 I think like when somebody actually says 758 00:26:41,233 --> 00:26:43,933 this is who I am warts and all 759 00:26:44,933 --> 00:26:48,633 it just sounds true 760 00:26:49,133 --> 00:26:52,633 because the easiest thing to say is 761 00:26:52,733 --> 00:26:55,300 I did this thing and it's awesome right 762 00:26:55,300 --> 00:26:58,433 um it's much harder to say 763 00:26:59,633 --> 00:27:00,133 and I see 764 00:27:00,133 --> 00:27:02,433 and I don't even want it to sound self congratulatory 765 00:27:02,433 --> 00:27:05,000 but the thing I've Learned in like I 766 00:27:05,000 --> 00:27:06,800 when I've been interviewing others 767 00:27:07,333 --> 00:27:10,100 what I'm always trying to get to is what my good friend 768 00:27:10,100 --> 00:27:10,733 right Thompson 769 00:27:10,733 --> 00:27:12,333 who I who I used to work with at ESPN 770 00:27:12,333 --> 00:27:13,500 he calls the gripe 771 00:27:13,900 --> 00:27:16,933 and the gripe is the moment when like he in 772 00:27:16,933 --> 00:27:19,000 he's interviewed a lot of like very success 773 00:27:19,000 --> 00:27:21,400 he's done like stories on Michael Jordan right 774 00:27:21,566 --> 00:27:24,166 but the gripe is okay yeah 775 00:27:24,166 --> 00:27:25,433 you're great but like 776 00:27:25,433 --> 00:27:29,433 what's the thing that's actually bothering you 777 00:27:29,433 --> 00:27:30,833 right now yeah 778 00:27:30,833 --> 00:27:32,766 and the gripe can be something external 779 00:27:32,766 --> 00:27:34,400 it can be something internal 780 00:27:34,433 --> 00:27:36,266 but once you get to the gripe 781 00:27:37,133 --> 00:27:38,933 then it starts to become real 782 00:27:38,933 --> 00:27:41,000 because now you're relating to somebody else on like 783 00:27:41,000 --> 00:27:43,200 an individual level where the pain 784 00:27:43,200 --> 00:27:44,366 like everybody feels pain 785 00:27:44,366 --> 00:27:46,200 everybody feels vulnerability in some way 786 00:27:46,200 --> 00:27:48,933 and so that's the thing that you wanna try to relay 787 00:27:49,133 --> 00:27:51,133 as a storyteller and again 788 00:27:51,133 --> 00:27:52,933 like whenever possible 789 00:27:52,933 --> 00:27:54,600 part of the reason I don't shy away from that 790 00:27:54,600 --> 00:27:55,900 is because I know like 791 00:27:55,900 --> 00:27:57,166 I know the gripe works right 792 00:27:57,166 --> 00:27:59,600 so if I'm gonna if I'm gonna relay my own gripe in the 793 00:27:59,600 --> 00:28:01,833 in the in the additions of the newsletter 794 00:28:02,166 --> 00:28:03,400 then you know 795 00:28:03,400 --> 00:28:04,433 I know that like 796 00:28:04,500 --> 00:28:06,400 people probably relate to it 797 00:28:07,766 --> 00:28:09,700 yeah and we have this 798 00:28:10,166 --> 00:28:12,633 social media culture that is the opposite of that 799 00:28:12,633 --> 00:28:16,533 like it's all about showing your world in a way 800 00:28:16,733 --> 00:28:18,266 that is perfect 801 00:28:18,500 --> 00:28:23,733 and I guess that's popular too for a different reason 802 00:28:23,900 --> 00:28:28,233 but but the authenticity is way more powerful 803 00:28:28,700 --> 00:28:31,133 yeah I think so yeah 804 00:28:32,033 --> 00:28:32,766 now 805 00:28:32,766 --> 00:28:36,333 you and your wife are raising interracial sons 806 00:28:36,700 --> 00:28:38,900 in a world that 807 00:28:39,033 --> 00:28:43,733 I think tries to weaponize identity somewhat yeah 808 00:28:43,733 --> 00:28:47,100 um how do you manage that 809 00:28:47,100 --> 00:28:48,233 and I mean 810 00:28:48,233 --> 00:28:51,433 you know how do you think about that as a father 811 00:28:51,433 --> 00:28:52,633 and how do you make 812 00:28:52,700 --> 00:28:54,866 how do you keep your sons from becoming 813 00:28:55,166 --> 00:28:56,433 a victim of that 814 00:28:57,133 --> 00:28:58,033 well that's a great question 815 00:28:58,033 --> 00:28:59,800 I mean they have a lot of questions these days 816 00:28:59,800 --> 00:29:01,533 they're 14 the boys in particular 817 00:29:01,533 --> 00:29:03,233 and our daughter's 16 the boys are 14 818 00:29:03,233 --> 00:29:05,200 so we've always told them 819 00:29:05,200 --> 00:29:08,500 Sonia's LED the charge here that you are biracial yes 820 00:29:08,500 --> 00:29:11,333 but America is gonna very likely see you as black 821 00:29:11,333 --> 00:29:13,700 because they're going to see you as something that is 822 00:29:13,700 --> 00:29:15,300 other than white it's yeah 823 00:29:15,300 --> 00:29:17,533 not white is the is the yeah 824 00:29:17,633 --> 00:29:19,366 yeah and so like it's the 825 00:29:19,366 --> 00:29:20,100 it's the you know 826 00:29:20,100 --> 00:29:25,166 it's almost the antebellum era one drop rule right 827 00:29:25,166 --> 00:29:27,866 like one drop of black means you're black those 828 00:29:27,933 --> 00:29:31,400 there's some that thinking 829 00:29:31,533 --> 00:29:33,600 certainly not those actions 830 00:29:33,600 --> 00:29:35,900 but that thinking still exists like oh 831 00:29:35,900 --> 00:29:36,866 that's that guy's 832 00:29:37,033 --> 00:29:38,800 you know not so I don't I mean 833 00:29:38,800 --> 00:29:40,933 the kids can identify themselves however we want to 834 00:29:40,933 --> 00:29:41,966 that's what I try to tell them 835 00:29:41,966 --> 00:29:44,200 but like I we've also stressed to them 836 00:29:44,200 --> 00:29:48,400 you know America's gonna see you as not white and 837 00:29:48,400 --> 00:29:49,333 you know you know 838 00:29:49,333 --> 00:29:51,233 I think in a like 10 maybe 15 years 839 00:29:51,233 --> 00:29:55,500 America will be a a not white majority I don't 840 00:29:55,500 --> 00:29:57,800 I'd have to look at the census data to to verify that 841 00:29:57,800 --> 00:30:00,333 but it's coming but they're gonna very yeah 842 00:30:00,333 --> 00:30:03,733 they're gonna very quickly feel maybe even less uh 843 00:30:03,733 --> 00:30:06,200 other than they do right now um 844 00:30:06,200 --> 00:30:08,433 what I would say that's kind of remarkable is 845 00:30:08,433 --> 00:30:13,133 so the identity thing has had its ebbs and flows 846 00:30:13,466 --> 00:30:16,933 like we're married in Dallas in 2007 847 00:30:17,033 --> 00:30:18,633 a former Jim Crow state 848 00:30:19,700 --> 00:30:22,300 nobody cares like when we were dating 849 00:30:23,000 --> 00:30:23,833 this is you know 850 00:30:23,833 --> 00:30:25,566 the Deep South this is Texas 851 00:30:25,566 --> 00:30:27,233 nobody cares who we are yeah 852 00:30:27,233 --> 00:30:32,233 now when we move from uh Dallas to Boston 853 00:30:32,233 --> 00:30:33,833 especially as we're going through like 854 00:30:33,833 --> 00:30:35,700 some parts of rural Tennessee 855 00:30:35,700 --> 00:30:37,766 and we I remember one day in particular 856 00:30:37,766 --> 00:30:39,666 where we were gonna stop to go get a burger 857 00:30:39,733 --> 00:30:43,166 we left within like 30 seconds of walking in 858 00:30:43,166 --> 00:30:44,033 cause it was just obvious 859 00:30:44,033 --> 00:30:44,766 the stares we were getting 860 00:30:44,766 --> 00:30:46,600 that we were not welcome there wow 861 00:30:46,600 --> 00:30:47,900 so like there's been these 862 00:30:47,900 --> 00:30:49,633 but also like when we move out to Boston 863 00:30:49,766 --> 00:30:51,500 we're going through we're like oh 864 00:30:51,500 --> 00:30:54,000 we we go and we look at a place in South Boston 865 00:30:54,100 --> 00:30:56,533 um to rent and the real estate agent who's helping us 866 00:30:56,533 --> 00:30:58,633 she's like I actually wouldn't if I were you 867 00:30:58,633 --> 00:31:00,166 if I were you too I wouldn't rent here 868 00:31:00,166 --> 00:31:01,000 which is shocking 869 00:31:01,000 --> 00:31:03,733 because there was nobody in Dallas who said 870 00:31:03,733 --> 00:31:05,900 you know you can't live in any neighborhood but in 871 00:31:05,900 --> 00:31:08,066 but in Liberal most Boston 872 00:31:08,200 --> 00:31:10,966 there were still it was still sort of this these con 873 00:31:10,966 --> 00:31:12,400 these enclaves where it was 874 00:31:12,400 --> 00:31:14,666 you know tribal and um yeah 875 00:31:14,933 --> 00:31:19,066 I so we dealt with that but like really like 876 00:31:19,300 --> 00:31:21,166 like oh gosh 877 00:31:21,166 --> 00:31:22,366 it's 2025 now 878 00:31:22,366 --> 00:31:27,166 so like 2017 after Trump's elected the first time 879 00:31:27,166 --> 00:31:29,866 there was definitely this divide between 880 00:31:29,900 --> 00:31:32,533 are you on the side of I 881 00:31:32,533 --> 00:31:34,500 I should say I'm just gonna state my identity 882 00:31:34,500 --> 00:31:35,533 like my political identity 883 00:31:35,533 --> 00:31:38,733 like I'm a moderate Liberal to sort of classic Liberal 884 00:31:38,833 --> 00:31:40,733 and there was this push among the left 885 00:31:40,733 --> 00:31:42,700 like how are you going to identify yourself 886 00:31:43,133 --> 00:31:45,300 and we at first were like 887 00:31:45,300 --> 00:31:45,700 we're just gonna 888 00:31:45,700 --> 00:31:48,266 sort of hold the same values that we've always had 889 00:31:48,266 --> 00:31:51,366 but we saw how identity began to take more and more 890 00:31:51,366 --> 00:31:52,700 come more and more the fore 891 00:31:52,933 --> 00:31:55,900 and people that were to the left of us 892 00:31:56,133 --> 00:31:57,833 suddenly began to make identity 893 00:31:57,833 --> 00:31:59,966 like a core sort of feature 894 00:31:59,966 --> 00:32:02,400 to the point where it became its own segregation 895 00:32:02,400 --> 00:32:04,333 and that's where we didn't really like it 896 00:32:04,333 --> 00:32:05,433 you know like yeah 897 00:32:05,433 --> 00:32:07,233 um you would see 898 00:32:07,433 --> 00:32:09,366 I have to I don't remember exact 899 00:32:09,366 --> 00:32:10,666 I think it was Oberlin 900 00:32:11,366 --> 00:32:14,566 maybe it was NYU who had segregated uh 901 00:32:14,566 --> 00:32:15,966 dining areas right 902 00:32:15,966 --> 00:32:19,533 in their cafeterias this is in like 20 2017 903 00:32:20,166 --> 00:32:21,266 yeah yep 904 00:32:21,433 --> 00:32:23,833 um after George Floyd is killed 905 00:32:23,833 --> 00:32:25,933 and there's a whole George Floyd story 906 00:32:25,966 --> 00:32:28,200 that ties in with my own and Sonia's 907 00:32:28,366 --> 00:32:29,933 but after George Floyd is killed 908 00:32:29,933 --> 00:32:32,033 this white woman approaches me 909 00:32:32,033 --> 00:32:33,766 like of the progressive left 910 00:32:33,766 --> 00:32:34,300 and she's like 911 00:32:34,300 --> 00:32:36,700 I just don't know how you can raise black sons right 912 00:32:36,700 --> 00:32:38,200 now not meaning like 913 00:32:38,300 --> 00:32:39,300 like she's literally saying 914 00:32:39,300 --> 00:32:40,233 I don't know how you 915 00:32:40,233 --> 00:32:42,100 as a white man can raise your own sons 916 00:32:42,100 --> 00:32:44,300 which I had to walk it was a dinner party 917 00:32:44,300 --> 00:32:46,600 and I had to literally like walk out of the room for 918 00:32:46,600 --> 00:32:49,133 because I was about to explode at her right 919 00:32:49,133 --> 00:32:50,333 so um 920 00:32:50,500 --> 00:32:56,966 so that was a thing but then also it has honestly like 921 00:32:56,966 --> 00:32:59,333 I felt that that sort of the peak woke era 922 00:32:59,333 --> 00:33:01,000 I feel like we're past it 923 00:33:01,033 --> 00:33:04,333 and I feel that there's I feel that there's the 924 00:33:04,333 --> 00:33:05,700 I don't see 925 00:33:05,700 --> 00:33:08,233 I don't feel myself and I don't think Sony does either 926 00:33:08,566 --> 00:33:12,333 such an emphasis on race and identity as we saw 927 00:33:12,633 --> 00:33:14,166 you know five years ago 928 00:33:14,166 --> 00:33:14,633 but you know 929 00:33:14,633 --> 00:33:16,000 I wrote you have to be prepared to die 930 00:33:16,000 --> 00:33:16,800 before you can begin to live 931 00:33:16,800 --> 00:33:18,533 for the kids in large measure 932 00:33:18,533 --> 00:33:21,300 because I wanted them to see that like 933 00:33:21,366 --> 00:33:23,500 there are people who look like you 934 00:33:23,500 --> 00:33:26,633 who dealt with situations that are 935 00:33:27,300 --> 00:33:29,033 far worse than your own 936 00:33:29,200 --> 00:33:31,433 and that segregation that they faced 937 00:33:31,433 --> 00:33:33,200 like you're facing a form of it today 938 00:33:33,200 --> 00:33:34,700 either from you know 939 00:33:34,700 --> 00:33:36,233 all right form like the 940 00:33:36,400 --> 00:33:37,700 the bullshit of like 941 00:33:37,700 --> 00:33:40,100 Nick Fuentes and all those people on the 942 00:33:40,100 --> 00:33:41,633 the edge lords on the rights 943 00:33:41,633 --> 00:33:43,900 like that's ridiculous and toxic 944 00:33:43,900 --> 00:33:46,633 and I really hope that the conservatives 945 00:33:46,733 --> 00:33:49,033 really get rid of that cause I hope 946 00:33:49,033 --> 00:33:51,100 there's no home for that in American discourse 947 00:33:51,200 --> 00:33:52,766 but if there is then like 948 00:33:52,766 --> 00:33:54,400 my God what does that say about America 949 00:33:54,400 --> 00:33:55,900 but in any case like if that's 950 00:33:55,900 --> 00:33:57,333 if that actually is gonna run its course 951 00:33:57,333 --> 00:34:00,100 in the same way that wokeness has run its course 952 00:34:00,100 --> 00:34:01,433 on the left I feel 953 00:34:01,433 --> 00:34:03,400 I'm hopeful that in the future 954 00:34:03,566 --> 00:34:06,200 we can come to something that resembles kind of like 955 00:34:06,200 --> 00:34:07,866 the way that Sonny and I were 956 00:34:08,100 --> 00:34:11,433 again in the Deep South in like 2004 957 00:34:11,433 --> 00:34:13,900 2005 through like 2015 958 00:34:13,966 --> 00:34:15,766 which is just like nobody really cared 959 00:34:15,766 --> 00:34:16,133 you know 960 00:34:16,133 --> 00:34:18,433 like it was just kind of like you are who you are 961 00:34:18,733 --> 00:34:20,600 yeah it was almost like 962 00:34:20,700 --> 00:34:23,000 and I I was in Dallas around that same time 963 00:34:23,166 --> 00:34:27,166 and it felt like Dallas was aware of its identity 964 00:34:27,166 --> 00:34:28,966 as a former slave state 965 00:34:28,966 --> 00:34:31,600 as part of the Jim Crow South and all of that 966 00:34:31,600 --> 00:34:37,033 and celebrated opportunities to demonstrate that 967 00:34:37,033 --> 00:34:38,833 that isn't the case anymore 968 00:34:39,366 --> 00:34:42,000 yeah and that was 969 00:34:43,233 --> 00:34:45,533 been nice to get back to that yeah 970 00:34:45,533 --> 00:34:46,133 yeah I mean 971 00:34:46,133 --> 00:34:48,000 like the Dallas that I knew 20 years ago 972 00:34:48,000 --> 00:34:50,800 was the home of an evangelical pastor 973 00:34:50,800 --> 00:34:53,933 like TD Jakes I think right after we moved from Dallas 974 00:34:54,233 --> 00:34:58,833 it had its first I know it had its first um uh 975 00:34:58,900 --> 00:35:00,600 Hispanic woman become the sheriff 976 00:35:00,600 --> 00:35:01,833 while we were still there 977 00:35:01,833 --> 00:35:02,000 wow 978 00:35:02,000 --> 00:35:05,500 and then I think it had its first black police chief 979 00:35:05,500 --> 00:35:06,566 I think right after anyway 980 00:35:06,566 --> 00:35:08,666 my point is that like to your point Shawn 981 00:35:09,000 --> 00:35:09,800 it 982 00:35:10,366 --> 00:35:12,800 it was fully aware of its past 983 00:35:12,800 --> 00:35:17,333 and seemed to try to move past that 984 00:35:17,400 --> 00:35:18,166 and you know 985 00:35:18,166 --> 00:35:19,366 it's honestly like 986 00:35:19,366 --> 00:35:22,200 there are still some Liberal enclaves where 987 00:35:22,833 --> 00:35:25,033 at least that we see now that we live in the northeast 988 00:35:25,033 --> 00:35:25,966 where it's kind of 989 00:35:25,966 --> 00:35:27,766 still a little bit stifling and annoying 990 00:35:27,766 --> 00:35:29,833 but even then like on the whole 991 00:35:30,233 --> 00:35:31,433 it's not the same 992 00:35:31,433 --> 00:35:34,266 2025 is not the same place as it was in 2020 993 00:35:34,633 --> 00:35:36,700 yeah I totally agree with you there 994 00:35:37,633 --> 00:35:38,233 okay so I 995 00:35:38,233 --> 00:35:40,333 wanna share a quick story 996 00:35:40,333 --> 00:35:42,266 about something that happened last week 997 00:35:42,366 --> 00:35:46,300 with my son and I wanna get your feeling about it 998 00:35:46,300 --> 00:35:47,733 cause I didn't man 999 00:35:47,733 --> 00:35:49,033 I did not know how to deal with it 1000 00:35:49,033 --> 00:35:50,500 and uh 1001 00:35:50,566 --> 00:35:52,033 so I'll share the story and then I wanna 1002 00:35:52,033 --> 00:35:52,933 I wanna know what you think 1003 00:35:52,933 --> 00:35:54,533 and then I'll tell you what I actually did 1004 00:35:55,133 --> 00:35:55,933 OK um 1005 00:35:57,200 --> 00:35:58,800 our school the my 1006 00:35:58,800 --> 00:36:01,100 my son's school is it's a great school 1007 00:36:01,100 --> 00:36:02,933 it's really close I can walk him to school 1008 00:36:02,933 --> 00:36:03,733 it's great 1009 00:36:04,366 --> 00:36:06,033 and they do this fundraiser thing 1010 00:36:06,033 --> 00:36:07,933 and there's a private company that comes in 1011 00:36:07,933 --> 00:36:09,433 and it does this fundraiser 1012 00:36:09,600 --> 00:36:13,100 and I actually don't know what percentage 1013 00:36:13,100 --> 00:36:15,833 of the funds they take but I doubt it's small 1014 00:36:16,433 --> 00:36:18,766 yeah and you know 1015 00:36:18,766 --> 00:36:19,000 you're 1016 00:36:19,000 --> 00:36:23,633 you're supposed to sponsor them on a per lap basis 1017 00:36:23,633 --> 00:36:26,566 and if you sponsor them at $3 a lap 1018 00:36:26,566 --> 00:36:30,633 then then they get this prize and if it's $2 a lap 1019 00:36:30,633 --> 00:36:31,433 it's this prize and 1020 00:36:31,433 --> 00:36:34,633 and they're supposed to raise money this way 1021 00:36:34,633 --> 00:36:35,966 and it turns they create 1022 00:36:35,966 --> 00:36:38,666 it turned into this freaking competition 1023 00:36:38,833 --> 00:36:41,100 between the kids about who can basically 1024 00:36:41,100 --> 00:36:44,200 convince their parents to sponsor them enough and 1025 00:36:44,200 --> 00:36:46,300 or shame their parents into sponsoring them enough 1026 00:36:46,300 --> 00:36:48,800 and the whole thing was so disgusting to me 1027 00:36:48,933 --> 00:36:51,433 that my wife and I decided 1028 00:36:52,100 --> 00:36:53,866 that we just weren't gonna participate 1029 00:36:54,200 --> 00:36:56,700 and I mean we've given money to the school 1030 00:36:56,700 --> 00:36:58,533 we've donated money to school directly to school 1031 00:36:58,533 --> 00:36:59,900 you want me to donate money to school 1032 00:36:59,900 --> 00:37:00,866 I'll do that 1033 00:37:01,333 --> 00:37:04,533 but I'm not gonna participate in this little charade 1034 00:37:05,500 --> 00:37:07,100 and so 1035 00:37:07,100 --> 00:37:09,833 this is a principal stand that we decided to take 1036 00:37:10,600 --> 00:37:14,433 and my son came home last Thursday 1037 00:37:14,800 --> 00:37:16,400 and he was very upset 1038 00:37:17,300 --> 00:37:19,600 and he was saying to me 1039 00:37:19,600 --> 00:37:22,033 he was trying to convince me that it's not too late 1040 00:37:22,033 --> 00:37:22,233 you know 1041 00:37:22,233 --> 00:37:24,233 they ran the race that day and it's not too late 1042 00:37:24,233 --> 00:37:27,100 you can still sponsor and all of this stuff 1043 00:37:27,100 --> 00:37:30,633 it's only $3 and I said to him I said listen 1044 00:37:30,633 --> 00:37:35,433 it's not $3 it's $3 a lap lake um 1045 00:37:35,433 --> 00:37:36,400 how many laps did you run 1046 00:37:36,400 --> 00:37:37,833 I ran 46 laps OK 1047 00:37:37,833 --> 00:37:39,800 what's three times 46 1048 00:37:40,900 --> 00:37:44,566 and he told me and I said 1049 00:37:44,566 --> 00:37:46,400 that's how much money you're asking me 1050 00:37:46,700 --> 00:37:49,200 to sponsor you for and that's fine 1051 00:37:49,200 --> 00:37:51,000 but the school doesn't even get all that money 1052 00:37:51,133 --> 00:37:53,333 and I'm opposed to it and he got really 1053 00:37:53,333 --> 00:37:54,500 really upset and he says 1054 00:37:54,500 --> 00:37:56,533 I'm so sorry and he ran out of the room screaming 1055 00:37:56,533 --> 00:37:56,966 and then I 1056 00:37:56,966 --> 00:38:00,333 I went out or crying and I went over to him and I said 1057 00:38:00,966 --> 00:38:03,933 I sat him down and he said to me 1058 00:38:04,166 --> 00:38:06,933 I go what why is this so important to you buddy 1059 00:38:07,633 --> 00:38:10,800 yeah and he goes well 1060 00:38:10,800 --> 00:38:12,300 the other kids in the class 1061 00:38:13,966 --> 00:38:18,533 they all got prizes and they're kind of bullying me 1062 00:38:18,633 --> 00:38:20,666 and they're making fun of me for not having a prize 1063 00:38:22,100 --> 00:38:26,433 and I got absolutely livid and I don't 1064 00:38:26,433 --> 00:38:28,433 I don't get that mad very often 1065 00:38:28,433 --> 00:38:30,600 but I was really mad at this point 1066 00:38:30,933 --> 00:38:32,300 and of course I'm not mad at him 1067 00:38:32,433 --> 00:38:34,933 I'm mad at the school and 1068 00:38:34,933 --> 00:38:38,800 and I'm sort of mad at myself also because this 1069 00:38:39,966 --> 00:38:41,500 my principal stance 1070 00:38:41,766 --> 00:38:44,133 caused my kid to have to endure this bullshit 1071 00:38:44,733 --> 00:38:46,800 yeah and uh 1072 00:38:48,566 --> 00:38:51,733 so that's the that's the preamble 1073 00:38:51,733 --> 00:38:53,000 what would you do what 1074 00:38:53,000 --> 00:38:54,166 how would you think about that 1075 00:38:54,166 --> 00:38:54,833 what would you do 1076 00:38:54,833 --> 00:38:57,000 or what would you advise me to do in that circumstance 1077 00:38:57,000 --> 00:38:58,800 oh um 1078 00:38:58,800 --> 00:39:00,433 well what immediately 1079 00:39:00,433 --> 00:39:03,233 springs to my mind is a somewhat similar situation 1080 00:39:03,533 --> 00:39:05,466 I was on our town's 1081 00:39:06,766 --> 00:39:09,433 Little League board in large measure 1082 00:39:09,433 --> 00:39:12,400 because there were some dads 1083 00:39:12,400 --> 00:39:14,200 and maybe you've run into them Sean 1084 00:39:14,200 --> 00:39:18,566 who took Little League very seriously 1085 00:39:18,566 --> 00:39:19,833 oh yeah right 1086 00:39:20,300 --> 00:39:24,133 uh and it's pretty easy to see why right 1087 00:39:24,133 --> 00:39:25,400 cause they see 1088 00:39:25,500 --> 00:39:28,133 their own success and failure in their son's eyes 1089 00:39:28,200 --> 00:39:29,200 yeah uh 1090 00:39:30,100 --> 00:39:32,500 and so I'm on that board 1091 00:39:33,100 --> 00:39:36,633 and trying to act as almost like a counter agent 1092 00:39:37,100 --> 00:39:40,300 and one day the head of the board is like okay 1093 00:39:40,300 --> 00:39:41,400 we're gonna do our raffle ticket 1094 00:39:41,400 --> 00:39:43,200 and we want to raise this much money 1095 00:39:43,200 --> 00:39:44,333 now the board that 1096 00:39:44,333 --> 00:39:46,233 that literally like 1097 00:39:46,700 --> 00:39:49,533 the league itself is actually separate from the town 1098 00:39:49,533 --> 00:39:51,300 which I grew up in 1099 00:39:51,300 --> 00:39:53,133 where like the town was kind of like 1100 00:39:53,133 --> 00:39:55,400 the town and the school was kind of like 1101 00:39:55,533 --> 00:39:57,166 one in the same with respect to sort of 1102 00:39:57,166 --> 00:39:58,900 the extracurricular sports that they'd have 1103 00:39:58,900 --> 00:40:00,700 so that was its first disconnect 1104 00:40:00,700 --> 00:40:01,166 but I'm like okay 1105 00:40:01,166 --> 00:40:01,933 whatever like our 1106 00:40:01,933 --> 00:40:03,800 our town's bigger than the one in which I grew up 1107 00:40:03,800 --> 00:40:06,000 so that's fine yeah um 1108 00:40:06,000 --> 00:40:10,100 but then I got a chance in the subsequent board meeting 1109 00:40:10,233 --> 00:40:10,933 to say okay 1110 00:40:10,933 --> 00:40:11,800 well they're like 1111 00:40:11,800 --> 00:40:14,933 we want to raise $15,000 because we have to 1112 00:40:14,933 --> 00:40:15,200 you know 1113 00:40:15,200 --> 00:40:17,333 keep the we have to keep the upkeep to the fields 1114 00:40:17,333 --> 00:40:19,166 we've got all this offseason stuff and I'm like 1115 00:40:19,166 --> 00:40:19,733 at first I was like okay 1116 00:40:19,733 --> 00:40:21,633 that makes sense we're gonna do this raffle 1117 00:40:21,633 --> 00:40:22,366 and it's the same 1118 00:40:22,366 --> 00:40:23,900 sort of thing as what you're describing 1119 00:40:23,966 --> 00:40:26,100 kids having to go around it's just basically like 1120 00:40:26,100 --> 00:40:26,333 you know 1121 00:40:26,333 --> 00:40:28,433 you gotta spend 20 bucks here and you're trying to 1122 00:40:28,433 --> 00:40:30,600 each kid is trying to raise something like 300 1123 00:40:30,600 --> 00:40:32,633 400 bucks and I'm like okay 1124 00:40:32,733 --> 00:40:33,200 that's you know 1125 00:40:33,200 --> 00:40:34,033 it's whatever right 1126 00:40:34,033 --> 00:40:36,033 that's kind of a lot but whatever 1127 00:40:36,366 --> 00:40:38,100 um'cause you're already you're already 1128 00:40:38,100 --> 00:40:40,266 you know if your kid plays baseball 1129 00:40:40,300 --> 00:40:41,900 those baseball bats themselves 1130 00:40:41,900 --> 00:40:44,433 even if the kids like in third grade 1131 00:40:44,433 --> 00:40:46,633 those baseball bats run for like 300 bucks now 1132 00:40:46,633 --> 00:40:47,700 it's ridiculous right 1133 00:40:47,700 --> 00:40:48,533 yeah and then you're 1134 00:40:48,533 --> 00:40:50,533 you're paying for the leagues and everything 1135 00:40:50,533 --> 00:40:51,900 it's crazy there's league fees 1136 00:40:51,900 --> 00:40:53,333 and now there's all this raffle stuff 1137 00:40:53,333 --> 00:40:54,333 and so it's just like 1138 00:40:54,333 --> 00:40:56,133 for something where it's just supposed to be fun 1139 00:40:56,133 --> 00:40:57,833 now you're dropping maybe 15 1140 00:40:57,833 --> 00:40:59,333 maybe two grand you know 1141 00:40:59,333 --> 00:41:01,033 just and I have two kids too 1142 00:41:01,033 --> 00:41:02,033 so you know 1143 00:41:02,033 --> 00:41:04,233 always double the expense anyway 1144 00:41:04,433 --> 00:41:05,533 I'm like okay 1145 00:41:05,533 --> 00:41:09,233 I'm begrudgingly gonna go along with the raffle right 1146 00:41:09,233 --> 00:41:10,600 until I find out 1147 00:41:10,833 --> 00:41:15,000 that the league itself has a separate savings account 1148 00:41:15,000 --> 00:41:17,533 that has something like 80 grand in it 1149 00:41:17,766 --> 00:41:20,933 and they're just letting the money sit there and grow 1150 00:41:21,566 --> 00:41:24,500 and I'm like we're not some sort of endowment 1151 00:41:24,500 --> 00:41:25,500 like we don't what are we 1152 00:41:25,500 --> 00:41:26,400 what is this for 1153 00:41:26,400 --> 00:41:28,366 if we're not like spending that money down 1154 00:41:28,366 --> 00:41:30,000 like why do we even need to do a raffle 1155 00:41:30,000 --> 00:41:31,833 like if the and I asked the 1156 00:41:31,833 --> 00:41:33,500 I asked some I asked a guy I knew 1157 00:41:33,766 --> 00:41:33,900 so 1158 00:41:33,900 --> 00:41:35,533 how much is the upkeep for the field in the offseason 1159 00:41:35,533 --> 00:41:36,333 he's like uh 1160 00:41:36,333 --> 00:41:38,700 we could probably do it for like 5,000 I'm like 1161 00:41:38,700 --> 00:41:40,800 well why are we why are we doing this to the parents 1162 00:41:40,800 --> 00:41:42,700 we're we're looking to raise somewhere between again 1163 00:41:42,700 --> 00:41:45,366 like 10 to 20 thousand dollars cumulatively like well 1164 00:41:45,366 --> 00:41:46,900 we just want to make sure we have enough I'm like 1165 00:41:46,900 --> 00:41:49,300 we have enough right um 1166 00:41:49,400 --> 00:41:52,000 and so I didn't I didn't have the boys participate 1167 00:41:52,766 --> 00:41:55,000 even though I was one of the coaches yeah 1168 00:41:55,000 --> 00:41:58,733 which set off its own sort of like between 1169 00:41:58,733 --> 00:42:01,433 so now there's a riff between me and the other dads 1170 00:42:01,433 --> 00:42:02,700 which had existed anyway 1171 00:42:02,700 --> 00:42:06,400 because I like refused to run that line of I'm 1172 00:42:07,700 --> 00:42:09,133 gonna make sure he starts and all this 1173 00:42:09,133 --> 00:42:10,566 all this other stuff right 1174 00:42:10,566 --> 00:42:13,000 um but now there's the other thing that oh 1175 00:42:13,000 --> 00:42:13,766 you know 1176 00:42:13,766 --> 00:42:16,933 kicks his he's stuck up he does or whatever it is right 1177 00:42:16,933 --> 00:42:19,966 he's not even gonna participate in the raffle and I 1178 00:42:19,966 --> 00:42:22,200 and I took this stand and sort of was an 1179 00:42:22,200 --> 00:42:24,300 I've ostracized a little bit from the league 1180 00:42:24,300 --> 00:42:26,300 but the boys they had a rough go too 1181 00:42:26,300 --> 00:42:27,133 they're like how come 1182 00:42:27,133 --> 00:42:27,833 you know their own team is like 1183 00:42:27,833 --> 00:42:29,833 how they're bringing the raffle sales 1184 00:42:29,833 --> 00:42:31,600 and boys don't have any 1185 00:42:32,133 --> 00:42:33,500 and they're like yeah 1186 00:42:33,500 --> 00:42:34,533 we and I just 1187 00:42:34,533 --> 00:42:35,700 I just said to the other kids 1188 00:42:35,700 --> 00:42:36,100 I'm like yeah 1189 00:42:36,100 --> 00:42:37,866 we chose not to do it this year 1190 00:42:38,133 --> 00:42:40,133 um but I know that there was a little bit of sniping 1191 00:42:40,133 --> 00:42:41,900 that the boys had to deal with separately 1192 00:42:41,900 --> 00:42:43,366 and they came to me like why did we do this 1193 00:42:43,366 --> 00:42:45,666 like why did you have to take this principal stand 1194 00:42:45,700 --> 00:42:47,133 yeah and honestly 1195 00:42:47,133 --> 00:42:48,966 I didn't have a very good answer aside from 1196 00:42:48,966 --> 00:42:51,433 I think it's stupid for them to do that 1197 00:42:51,433 --> 00:42:52,533 even though I knew that like 1198 00:42:52,533 --> 00:42:54,600 it was something that now they would have to endure 1199 00:42:54,900 --> 00:42:55,566 yeah um 1200 00:42:55,566 --> 00:42:56,566 socially right 1201 00:42:56,566 --> 00:42:58,400 yeah and it wasn't 1202 00:42:59,500 --> 00:43:00,633 there were prizes 1203 00:43:00,933 --> 00:43:02,966 there were other kids on other teams and 1204 00:43:02,966 --> 00:43:04,400 and some of their friends on other teams 1205 00:43:04,400 --> 00:43:05,133 and some of their 1206 00:43:05,133 --> 00:43:07,000 some of their teammates on our own team 1207 00:43:07,400 --> 00:43:09,833 like the top prize was like an iPad or something right 1208 00:43:09,833 --> 00:43:11,533 for like selling the most raffles right 1209 00:43:11,533 --> 00:43:12,366 so like wow 1210 00:43:12,366 --> 00:43:13,300 it's a it's a it's 1211 00:43:13,300 --> 00:43:15,933 it's not it's not like here's a pair of 1212 00:43:16,700 --> 00:43:18,133 here's a wristband Timmy 1213 00:43:18,133 --> 00:43:18,933 it's you know 1214 00:43:18,966 --> 00:43:21,900 here's a brand new iPad so which was it 1215 00:43:21,900 --> 00:43:23,100 so I 1216 00:43:23,100 --> 00:43:25,733 felt even more principled in my opposition after that 1217 00:43:25,733 --> 00:43:26,633 absolutely wait 1218 00:43:26,633 --> 00:43:30,233 that's a thousand dollar prize give me a break 1219 00:43:31,833 --> 00:43:35,333 so I how would I advise you 1220 00:43:35,633 --> 00:43:36,433 oh 1221 00:43:36,966 --> 00:43:39,900 I still wonder today if I did the right thing 1222 00:43:40,000 --> 00:43:44,666 what I can tell you is 4+ years later 1223 00:43:44,800 --> 00:43:46,800 in ways large and small 1224 00:43:46,966 --> 00:43:49,766 my boys I hope and cause I see this in them 1225 00:43:49,766 --> 00:43:52,133 they seem to have a better bullshit detector 1226 00:43:52,233 --> 00:43:55,833 than other kids and they seem to realize that oh 1227 00:43:55,833 --> 00:43:56,900 there are times when like 1228 00:43:56,900 --> 00:43:59,500 some of this stuff is just stupid peer pressure stuff 1229 00:43:59,500 --> 00:44:01,800 and I don't need to do that if I don't wanna do it 1230 00:44:01,800 --> 00:44:03,533 and they can take a stand against it 1231 00:44:03,533 --> 00:44:05,033 now of course they're still teenagers 1232 00:44:05,033 --> 00:44:07,833 so like it's super hard to be outside a peer group 1233 00:44:07,833 --> 00:44:10,200 and I'm gonna take a principal stand here 1234 00:44:10,200 --> 00:44:12,633 you know I'm just saying that I think that 1235 00:44:12,900 --> 00:44:16,100 in ways large and small like that choice then 1236 00:44:16,100 --> 00:44:18,100 and a few other signing I've made 1237 00:44:18,366 --> 00:44:20,333 has sort of set an example for 1238 00:44:20,333 --> 00:44:24,500 you know like sometimes the crowd is wrong 1239 00:44:24,500 --> 00:44:25,500 and sometimes 1240 00:44:25,500 --> 00:44:27,466 you should be in opposition to that crowd 1241 00:44:28,100 --> 00:44:30,533 and you know you gotta kind of state why it's wrong 1242 00:44:30,533 --> 00:44:32,600 and stick by what what you believe 1243 00:44:32,600 --> 00:44:34,800 even if there are consequences for it yeah 1244 00:44:34,800 --> 00:44:36,333 I don't know is that helpful in any way 1245 00:44:36,333 --> 00:44:36,966 yeah yeah 1246 00:44:36,966 --> 00:44:39,133 no I think that's that's issue 1247 00:44:39,133 --> 00:44:41,300 cause you and I ended up doing the same thing 1248 00:44:41,300 --> 00:44:45,233 and I so at that that night my 1249 00:44:45,233 --> 00:44:47,933 my wife had an event early in the evening 1250 00:44:47,933 --> 00:44:49,166 and I had an event later 1251 00:44:49,166 --> 00:44:51,533 and we were kind of doing a handoff from the kids 1252 00:44:51,533 --> 00:44:54,533 and just meeting uh um 1253 00:44:55,233 --> 00:44:56,300 uh on the go 1254 00:44:56,333 --> 00:44:59,266 and it was actually in our cars 1255 00:44:59,400 --> 00:45:00,500 and I rolled down my window 1256 00:45:00,500 --> 00:45:01,700 and she rolled down her window 1257 00:45:01,700 --> 00:45:05,366 and I was still very animated about this at this time 1258 00:45:05,366 --> 00:45:06,400 and I said to her I said 1259 00:45:06,400 --> 00:45:10,100 this thing just happened lake told me this um 1260 00:45:10,100 --> 00:45:11,633 and and this is what happened 1261 00:45:11,633 --> 00:45:12,833 and I got I got really 1262 00:45:12,833 --> 00:45:14,800 really upset um 1263 00:45:15,933 --> 00:45:20,800 and I want you to go up there and talk to him about it 1264 00:45:20,800 --> 00:45:22,500 and and 1265 00:45:22,500 --> 00:45:23,200 you know hear 1266 00:45:23,200 --> 00:45:25,600 hear what he has to say um 1267 00:45:25,600 --> 00:45:27,300 I wish I had the time to do it 1268 00:45:27,566 --> 00:45:31,233 but here's I don't want him to go to school tomorrow 1269 00:45:32,300 --> 00:45:34,633 I I'll take him to Legoland or something 1270 00:45:34,633 --> 00:45:35,600 I'll take the day off of work 1271 00:45:35,600 --> 00:45:39,533 and I'll take him to Legoland and um 1272 00:45:39,533 --> 00:45:42,800 and next year when this event comes around again 1273 00:45:42,800 --> 00:45:44,233 we'll take him out for the whole week 1274 00:45:44,366 --> 00:45:47,266 I don't feel like he should have to endure 1275 00:45:49,133 --> 00:45:52,200 bullying or even what he perceives is bullying 1276 00:45:52,800 --> 00:45:54,800 um for my principal stance 1277 00:45:54,800 --> 00:45:55,533 and so 1278 00:45:55,533 --> 00:45:58,466 we just won't go to school while this is going on 1279 00:45:59,000 --> 00:46:02,300 and everyone else can have it and 1280 00:46:02,300 --> 00:46:03,933 and but I'm not taking him 1281 00:46:03,933 --> 00:46:06,566 I'm not gonna make him endure it and I'm gonna 1282 00:46:06,566 --> 00:46:08,033 I'm gonna take him out of school 1283 00:46:08,533 --> 00:46:11,800 and he and I ended up uh 1284 00:46:12,000 --> 00:46:13,100 going 1285 00:46:13,900 --> 00:46:15,766 uh we got a little bit of a late start to the day 1286 00:46:15,766 --> 00:46:17,000 but we went to Legoland 1287 00:46:17,000 --> 00:46:21,166 got there around 11:00am and spent the day there 1288 00:46:21,166 --> 00:46:24,000 and it ended up being just this magical day 1289 00:46:24,000 --> 00:46:28,733 between just him and me and it was great 1290 00:46:28,733 --> 00:46:31,400 and he didn't have to go through that stuff 1291 00:46:31,400 --> 00:46:35,066 and we had a we had a talk about um 1292 00:46:35,233 --> 00:46:37,500 I said that I felt like this 1293 00:46:38,933 --> 00:46:41,133 fundraising thing was a scam 1294 00:46:41,600 --> 00:46:46,100 and we don't participate in scams and it's a gray area 1295 00:46:46,100 --> 00:46:48,733 and some people feel that way and some people don't 1296 00:46:48,733 --> 00:46:50,133 but this is the way we feel about it 1297 00:46:50,133 --> 00:46:52,400 and I'm sorry that as a result of that decision 1298 00:46:52,400 --> 00:46:54,033 you had to endure some hardship 1299 00:46:54,166 --> 00:46:55,800 but that's life sometimes 1300 00:46:55,966 --> 00:46:58,533 and I'll try to minimize it for you 1301 00:46:58,833 --> 00:47:00,300 yeah yeah 1302 00:47:00,300 --> 00:47:02,266 how did he respond uh 1303 00:47:02,300 --> 00:47:03,233 he was freaking thrilled 1304 00:47:03,233 --> 00:47:04,400 because he didn't have to go to school 1305 00:47:04,400 --> 00:47:06,900 he got to go to Legoland hahaha 1306 00:47:07,833 --> 00:47:08,600 do you think it 1307 00:47:08,600 --> 00:47:11,600 do you think the message you tried to relay resonated 1308 00:47:11,600 --> 00:47:13,600 I don't know he's 6 years old 1309 00:47:14,033 --> 00:47:15,433 yeah and so 1310 00:47:15,433 --> 00:47:16,100 you know I mean 1311 00:47:16,100 --> 00:47:17,600 it's hard to know what he absorbs 1312 00:47:17,600 --> 00:47:18,600 I I 1313 00:47:18,600 --> 00:47:21,533 I feel like the broad strokes are the parts 1314 00:47:21,800 --> 00:47:27,833 that I can really try to get through now and um 1315 00:47:28,233 --> 00:47:30,500 and I think maybe he got it 1316 00:47:31,033 --> 00:47:31,966 yeah yeah 1317 00:47:31,966 --> 00:47:33,866 they get more than you you think they do 1318 00:47:34,433 --> 00:47:36,400 I think that's so true Jim Henson 1319 00:47:36,400 --> 00:47:40,333 said a line that I think about all the time 1320 00:47:40,333 --> 00:47:41,266 he's like 1321 00:47:41,833 --> 00:47:45,333 your kids will almost never pick up what you say 1322 00:47:45,333 --> 00:47:46,500 but they will 1323 00:47:46,500 --> 00:47:50,300 they are watching every single thing you do yes 1324 00:47:51,566 --> 00:47:53,066 yes that's 1325 00:47:53,133 --> 00:47:55,600 that's exactly the deal yeah 1326 00:47:55,600 --> 00:47:56,433 so I you know 1327 00:47:56,433 --> 00:47:59,233 look as somebody who himself said 1328 00:47:59,333 --> 00:48:01,133 screw you crowd like I'm like 1329 00:48:01,133 --> 00:48:02,433 you did the right thing Sean 1330 00:48:02,433 --> 00:48:04,533 but again maybe I'm biased here 1331 00:48:04,533 --> 00:48:06,300 I think I did too and we'll find out 1332 00:48:06,300 --> 00:48:08,100 I mean the we 1333 00:48:09,600 --> 00:48:11,600 you can't just take your kid out of school 1334 00:48:11,600 --> 00:48:12,700 in California they 1335 00:48:12,700 --> 00:48:15,633 they frown on that and um 1336 00:48:16,500 --> 00:48:20,233 and so you have to get an excuse for the absence 1337 00:48:20,233 --> 00:48:22,766 and too many unexcused absences is a big problem 1338 00:48:22,766 --> 00:48:23,533 and you know 1339 00:48:23,533 --> 00:48:25,766 it's truancy and they'll come after you for that 1340 00:48:25,766 --> 00:48:27,466 and it's a little it 1341 00:48:28,366 --> 00:48:30,600 I mean I understand the spirit in which it's intended 1342 00:48:30,600 --> 00:48:33,066 but it also kind of creates some problems like this 1343 00:48:33,133 --> 00:48:34,433 and um 1344 00:48:34,566 --> 00:48:36,366 so we had to tell the school 1345 00:48:36,366 --> 00:48:37,900 why we were keeping him out of school 1346 00:48:38,233 --> 00:48:40,433 and were you honest with the school 1347 00:48:40,433 --> 00:48:44,133 yes and my instinct was to just say 1348 00:48:44,133 --> 00:48:45,033 he's out of school today 1349 00:48:45,033 --> 00:48:47,000 we're taking a mental health day or something like that 1350 00:48:47,300 --> 00:48:48,833 and my wife was like no 1351 00:48:48,833 --> 00:48:50,633 we're gonna use the term bullying 1352 00:48:50,800 --> 00:48:52,366 we're gonna say this and we're gonna 1353 00:48:52,366 --> 00:48:53,933 we're gonna give him the principal 1354 00:48:54,300 --> 00:48:56,200 I was like okay 1355 00:48:56,233 --> 00:48:57,466 haha and that's 1356 00:48:57,500 --> 00:49:00,000 and that's what we did and uh 1357 00:49:01,000 --> 00:49:02,600 you know they had 1358 00:49:02,600 --> 00:49:06,866 they never responded to us and it's um 1359 00:49:06,900 --> 00:49:09,133 we'll see what happens his uh 1360 00:49:09,133 --> 00:49:11,366 today is literally the Monday after that 1361 00:49:11,366 --> 00:49:13,300 and so there's no school today 1362 00:49:13,300 --> 00:49:15,400 and there's no school tomorrow for Veterans Day 1363 00:49:15,400 --> 00:49:17,566 and so the first time he's going to be at school again 1364 00:49:17,566 --> 00:49:18,433 is gonna be Wednesday 1365 00:49:18,433 --> 00:49:19,933 and I'm sure all this is gonna be died 1366 00:49:19,933 --> 00:49:22,566 it'll be all forgotten by then and so 1367 00:49:22,566 --> 00:49:23,866 and that's the by design 1368 00:49:24,600 --> 00:49:26,700 yeah kids move on real fast 1369 00:49:26,700 --> 00:49:27,500 oh yeah 1370 00:49:27,800 --> 00:49:29,333 especially at that age you know 1371 00:49:29,333 --> 00:49:29,966 yeah yeah 1372 00:49:29,966 --> 00:49:31,033 and that'll be an interesting lesson 1373 00:49:31,033 --> 00:49:34,166 I I I might try to touch back with him and say 1374 00:49:34,166 --> 00:49:35,100 hey listen you know 1375 00:49:35,100 --> 00:49:36,233 remember last week 1376 00:49:36,500 --> 00:49:39,533 the biggest thing in the world was this thing about the 1377 00:49:39,533 --> 00:49:42,100 the prize and now nobody cares 1378 00:49:42,100 --> 00:49:43,500 like there's a lesson in that 1379 00:49:44,033 --> 00:49:45,366 yeah I think you're right 1380 00:49:45,366 --> 00:49:46,800 yeah well 1381 00:49:46,800 --> 00:49:50,366 I always like to close these discussions with uh 1382 00:49:50,366 --> 00:49:51,800 the same question of everybody 1383 00:49:51,800 --> 00:49:53,066 I'm gonna put you on the spot 1384 00:49:53,566 --> 00:49:56,966 give me one principle that you admire 1385 00:49:56,966 --> 00:49:58,866 or like to live your life by 1386 00:49:59,333 --> 00:50:04,600 uh on the uh on the subject of raising boys into men 1387 00:50:06,366 --> 00:50:11,933 uh I like uh a line from Luke chapter 17 1388 00:50:11,933 --> 00:50:13,900 I don't remember the verse but uh 1389 00:50:13,900 --> 00:50:15,500 Jesus says something like 1390 00:50:15,900 --> 00:50:18,100 remember that the kingdom of god is within you 1391 00:50:18,200 --> 00:50:22,833 and I love that because what it means to me is 1392 00:50:23,333 --> 00:50:25,533 we are streaked with the divine 1393 00:50:25,900 --> 00:50:29,733 and if we honor that divinity within us 1394 00:50:30,233 --> 00:50:33,200 we allow we we lead not only our our 1395 00:50:33,200 --> 00:50:35,433 our best life we lead out our life's purpose 1396 00:50:35,433 --> 00:50:38,233 as somebody like Ralph Waldo Emerson would have put it 1397 00:50:38,400 --> 00:50:40,866 but I think that that streak of divinity 1398 00:50:40,933 --> 00:50:42,933 that light starts to shine outward 1399 00:50:43,233 --> 00:50:44,600 and hopefully 1400 00:50:44,600 --> 00:50:48,333 people start to see in ways large and small oh 1401 00:50:48,633 --> 00:50:51,433 I can do what I need to do with my life too 1402 00:50:51,733 --> 00:50:52,733 and you know 1403 00:50:52,733 --> 00:50:53,300 like that's 1404 00:50:53,300 --> 00:50:56,500 that's what I hope the boys will pick up um 1405 00:50:56,566 --> 00:50:58,133 from more than anything from 1406 00:50:58,133 --> 00:50:59,166 from the way I've raised them 1407 00:50:59,166 --> 00:50:59,966 you know like 1408 00:51:00,000 --> 00:51:02,533 I have it within me to lead the life that I'm 1409 00:51:02,533 --> 00:51:03,733 that is my purpose 1410 00:51:05,300 --> 00:51:06,466 yeah I 1411 00:51:07,366 --> 00:51:10,100 I think that's a relatively 1412 00:51:11,533 --> 00:51:16,400 underappreciated aspect of Christianity 1413 00:51:16,400 --> 00:51:19,133 that we were made in God's image 1414 00:51:19,766 --> 00:51:23,566 yeah and it doesn't say that we're just like God 1415 00:51:23,566 --> 00:51:25,333 it says that we're made in his image 1416 00:51:25,333 --> 00:51:31,133 which is by definition an imperfect image right 1417 00:51:31,533 --> 00:51:33,766 and you know I 1418 00:51:33,766 --> 00:51:35,966 I think the message of that is that 1419 00:51:35,966 --> 00:51:39,500 you want to strive for that 1420 00:51:39,500 --> 00:51:42,100 recognizing that it is 1421 00:51:42,100 --> 00:51:43,933 the striving that is a value there 1422 00:51:43,933 --> 00:51:47,300 as opposed to the actual attainment of it 1423 00:51:47,300 --> 00:51:48,900 because the attainment is impossible 1424 00:51:49,533 --> 00:51:50,300 yeah I think 1425 00:51:50,300 --> 00:51:52,233 I think completely yeah 1426 00:51:52,233 --> 00:51:52,833 yeah yeah 1427 00:51:52,833 --> 00:51:53,700 I think that yeah it's 1428 00:51:53,700 --> 00:51:54,333 it's to it's 1429 00:51:54,333 --> 00:51:56,433 it's um if 1430 00:51:58,133 --> 00:51:58,400 look 1431 00:51:58,400 --> 00:52:00,700 there are a lot of secular interpretations of that too 1432 00:52:00,700 --> 00:52:02,966 and I think that of that line um 1433 00:52:02,966 --> 00:52:04,500 but there was this uh 1434 00:52:04,500 --> 00:52:05,200 but but that 1435 00:52:05,200 --> 00:52:06,500 that has been increasingly 1436 00:52:06,500 --> 00:52:08,966 something by which I live my own life 1437 00:52:08,966 --> 00:52:09,900 and I 1438 00:52:09,900 --> 00:52:12,733 don't really talk about my own Christian faith much 1439 00:52:12,733 --> 00:52:15,133 unless people ask but yeah um 1440 00:52:15,133 --> 00:52:17,300 but I just let it sort of be known 1441 00:52:17,300 --> 00:52:18,166 you know like that's 1442 00:52:18,166 --> 00:52:18,966 it's one of the 1443 00:52:18,966 --> 00:52:22,066 that is like a guiding principle that I live by 1444 00:52:22,166 --> 00:52:23,433 you know remember that 1445 00:52:23,700 --> 00:52:25,800 remember that the kingdom of God is within you 1446 00:52:26,200 --> 00:52:28,133 that it just it just lights me up every time 1447 00:52:28,133 --> 00:52:30,266 I think that anytime you're having a bad day 1448 00:52:30,433 --> 00:52:31,533 anytime something's you know 1449 00:52:31,533 --> 00:52:33,800 going good or ill just like okay 1450 00:52:33,800 --> 00:52:36,933 how can I best respond to this moment with courage 1451 00:52:36,933 --> 00:52:38,633 compassion everything else 1452 00:52:39,000 --> 00:52:40,833 yeah I think that's uh 1453 00:52:40,833 --> 00:52:43,900 that's amazing I think that's a wonderful place uh 1454 00:52:43,900 --> 00:52:45,100 to leave off Paul 1455 00:52:45,100 --> 00:52:47,133 thank you so much for uh 1456 00:52:47,333 --> 00:52:48,500 sharing your stories and 1457 00:52:48,500 --> 00:52:51,033 and your perspective and your authenticity 1458 00:52:51,366 --> 00:52:53,133 um I just I 1459 00:52:53,133 --> 00:52:56,266 I love hearing about this stuff and about your journey 1460 00:52:56,600 --> 00:52:59,033 I love reading your newsletter and uh 1461 00:52:59,033 --> 00:52:59,966 it's just uh 1462 00:52:59,966 --> 00:53:01,733 it's been an absolute pleasure uh 1463 00:53:01,733 --> 00:53:03,433 to to speak with you today 1464 00:53:03,933 --> 00:53:06,033 oh I wish you the best of luck with this 1465 00:53:06,033 --> 00:53:08,000 with this podcast and and everything else you're doing 1466 00:53:08,000 --> 00:53:09,166 and stay in touch for real man 1467 00:53:09,166 --> 00:53:10,133 like I thank you so much 1468 00:53:10,133 --> 00:53:11,600 I absolutely will you'll uh 1469 00:53:11,600 --> 00:53:13,600 you'll definitely hear from me 1470 00:53:13,900 --> 00:53:16,433 uh Paul Kicks is a storyteller 1471 00:53:16,433 --> 00:53:19,966 a journalist and just on all around Fantastic Man 1472 00:53:19,966 --> 00:53:21,033 his newsletter 1473 00:53:21,333 --> 00:53:26,000 about the craft of storytelling is absolutely amazing 1474 00:53:26,000 --> 00:53:28,000 um you should definitely join it 1475 00:53:28,033 --> 00:53:32,000 uh the link is in the show notes uh Paul 1476 00:53:32,000 --> 00:53:32,233 again 1477 00:53:32,233 --> 00:53:35,966 thank you so much for taking the time to join me on 1478 00:53:35,966 --> 00:53:36,900 Raising Men 1479 00:53:37,433 --> 00:53:38,200 awesome 1480 00:53:38,900 --> 00:53:42,333 raising men is produced by Phil Hernandez 1481 00:53:42,600 --> 00:53:45,733 this episode was edited by Ralph Tolentino