WEBVTT NOTE This file was generated by Descript 00:00:00.149 --> 00:00:02.340 Michele: Hey, welcome back to software social. 00:00:02.640 --> 00:00:05.760 This episode is brought to you by translate CI. 00:00:06.419 --> 00:00:11.340 Translate CI is a tool for developers that helps you localize applications 00:00:11.700 --> 00:00:14.399 with high quality human translations. 00:00:14.700 --> 00:00:17.340 It supports over 70 language pair. 00:00:17.640 --> 00:00:23.220 Translate CI eliminates the need to work out of spreadsheets, hire translators 00:00:23.250 --> 00:00:25.619 and manually merge language files. 00:00:25.919 --> 00:00:28.570 Instead with translate CI, you just use git. 00:00:28.973 --> 00:00:32.423 Just connect your, git repo and translate CI will pull out 00:00:32.423 --> 00:00:36.143 phrases and after a professional translator translates everything. 00:00:36.443 --> 00:00:40.133 They will merge into your existing code base with a poll request. 00:00:40.433 --> 00:00:43.913 And every time you push code your git repository, translate 00:00:43.913 --> 00:00:49.073 CI will pull any new phrases out, translate them and create a PR back. 00:00:49.373 --> 00:00:54.813 See how you can turn translation from a hassle into a breeze at TranslateCI.com. 00:00:54.833 --> 00:00:57.323 Hey, welcome back to software social. 00:00:57.353 --> 00:01:03.503 This week, I have someone joining me who probably needs no introduction, 00:01:03.558 --> 00:01:05.328 but I will give one anyway. 00:01:05.346 --> 00:01:11.900 Arvid Kahl, you probably know him from Twitter or his book zero to sold about 00:01:11.930 --> 00:01:17.383 exiting the company he co-founded feedback Panda, or his book, the embedded 00:01:17.383 --> 00:01:22.843 entrepreneur, or perhaps his new Twitter course called find your following, or 00:01:22.843 --> 00:01:26.773 perhaps his blog or perhaps his podcast. 00:01:26.817 --> 00:01:31.120 So welcome it to software, social everyone's favorite 00:01:31.120 --> 00:01:33.250 German Canadian entrepreneur. 00:01:33.550 --> 00:01:34.480 Arvid: Oh, thanks so much. 00:01:34.480 --> 00:01:37.300 I really need to stop making products so we can keep these 00:01:37.300 --> 00:01:38.450 introductions a bit shorter. 00:01:38.800 --> 00:01:39.040 Ah, 00:01:39.205 --> 00:01:40.375 Michele: Because a problem, right? 00:01:40.375 --> 00:01:42.565 Like it's an addiction that this is like making things. 00:01:42.595 --> 00:01:45.415 Arvid: That's when you just have to have really short names for everything 00:01:45.415 --> 00:01:47.005 you do, so you can list them easier. 00:01:47.035 --> 00:01:48.685 But yeah, it is an honestly. 00:01:48.685 --> 00:01:53.955 Like I was trying to have a couple months of not doing anything after I released my 00:01:53.955 --> 00:01:56.545 second book, just in the middle of 2020. 00:01:56.845 --> 00:02:00.000 And then I just felt, I really continue doing stuff. 00:02:00.030 --> 00:02:02.504 And, and this January, I just dove into it. 00:02:02.514 --> 00:02:03.984 Like January 1st, I started writing. 00:02:03.984 --> 00:02:07.584 January 31st, I released the course cause I really just 00:02:07.584 --> 00:02:08.604 wanted to get something done. 00:02:08.604 --> 00:02:09.384 I didn't have to. 00:02:09.454 --> 00:02:13.424 I have my life plan is to do one thing a year, like one product a year. 00:02:13.454 --> 00:02:13.664 Right. 00:02:13.664 --> 00:02:16.964 Just so I can focus my attention and do the things that I want to do. 00:02:17.264 --> 00:02:21.069 And turns out that this has now shrunk into one thing. 00:02:22.279 --> 00:02:24.739 Not intentionally, it just happened because I didn't want 00:02:24.739 --> 00:02:28.769 to spend like nine or 11 months in a year, not doing anything. 00:02:28.769 --> 00:02:33.089 So it kinda, you know, you could throw on back to work when work is so enjoyable 00:02:33.149 --> 00:02:37.349 and it's done in the community, which is like, everybody's always interacting 00:02:37.349 --> 00:02:38.909 with me about the stuff that I love. 00:02:39.209 --> 00:02:40.829 So it's hard to not do things. 00:02:41.432 --> 00:02:44.192 You know, so that's why the list is growing and growing. 00:02:44.192 --> 00:02:47.112 And I do appreciate you mentioning all the things, because it just 00:02:47.112 --> 00:02:49.842 shows me how much I've actually done it the last couple of years. 00:02:49.842 --> 00:02:50.502 So thank you. 00:02:50.802 --> 00:02:52.990 Michele: You really are someone who has found their following 00:02:52.990 --> 00:02:54.790 and found their community. 00:02:54.858 --> 00:02:57.631 So perhaps that's a good place to start is with Twitter. 00:02:57.631 --> 00:03:02.105 We're actually running a survey of our listeners right now because you know, 00:03:02.105 --> 00:03:05.865 we've got more advertisers interested in us who aren't, you know, other sort of 00:03:05.865 --> 00:03:09.935 indie companies and those advertisers want to know demographics and stuff like that. 00:03:09.935 --> 00:03:13.805 And so we're doing this little survey that people can go on Twitter to 00:03:13.805 --> 00:03:15.365 find the link to, it's our pin tweet. 00:03:15.665 --> 00:03:21.061 And one of the responses to that was somebody was hoping that we could 00:03:21.566 --> 00:03:26.016 talk a little bit about using Twitter effectively as an entrepreneur. 00:03:26.016 --> 00:03:31.319 And this just happens to be the entire topic of your new course. 00:03:31.599 --> 00:03:32.199 Arvid: That's right. 00:03:32.439 --> 00:03:34.149 Conveniently, but Yeah. 00:03:34.749 --> 00:03:35.689 I kinda fell into it. 00:03:35.689 --> 00:03:38.969 I gotta say, like, I've been using Twitter for over a decade now, 00:03:39.029 --> 00:03:40.799 really, because I'm a tech person. 00:03:40.799 --> 00:03:45.899 I was a software engineer back in 2008 and nine already cause I've always been 00:03:45.899 --> 00:03:49.489 doing software stuff, and Twitter was One of those things that people who 00:03:49.489 --> 00:03:51.139 knew what they were doing were using. 00:03:51.169 --> 00:03:54.319 So I was using it back in 2008 and nine, and ever since then, but I 00:03:54.329 --> 00:03:55.639 was never using it professionally. 00:03:55.669 --> 00:03:59.299 I was always using it just as a person looking around and looking at stuff and 00:03:59.569 --> 00:04:01.369 reading and finding stuff interesting. 00:04:01.369 --> 00:04:04.789 Following a couple people here or there not to intentionally, just kind of whoever 00:04:04.789 --> 00:04:07.009 came on my radar was the person I would. 00:04:07.572 --> 00:04:11.802 And that's showed because I think back in 2019, just after we had sold 00:04:11.802 --> 00:04:16.058 feedback Panda, and for that story, I think people can go back to episode, I 00:04:16.058 --> 00:04:17.288 forgot, but with Danielle y'all right. 00:04:17.288 --> 00:04:18.698 My, my co-founder and 00:04:18.758 --> 00:04:22.328 Michele: that was last, I guess, it would have been it's a December 00:04:22.628 --> 00:04:27.688 2020 episode where yeah, we your co-founder and partner, Danielle. 00:04:28.091 --> 00:04:29.351 Arvid: That was a whole thing, right. 00:04:29.351 --> 00:04:32.031 That really occupied us for two years. 00:04:32.211 --> 00:04:35.151 But once that was over, once we actually sold the company exited 00:04:35.181 --> 00:04:39.531 and then had nothing to do, I kinda thought, okay, now I'm on Twitter. 00:04:39.531 --> 00:04:44.031 I have my 400 followers that I've painfully accumulated over at that point 00:04:44.031 --> 00:04:48.931 it must've been 10 years of doing nothing on Twitter, how can I leverage this? 00:04:48.931 --> 00:04:53.371 How can I leverage the community that I'm already in, my personal 00:04:53.371 --> 00:04:57.091 experience as a software entrepreneur, and as somebody who can now teach 00:04:57.091 --> 00:04:58.201 the things that I've learned. 00:04:58.501 --> 00:05:00.301 And then I started doing it more professionally. 00:05:00.331 --> 00:05:01.871 I kind of just figured it out. 00:05:01.921 --> 00:05:05.971 It's like almost everything, every entrepreneur, all day, it's just figuring 00:05:05.971 --> 00:05:08.221 things out as they fall into your path. 00:05:08.521 --> 00:05:08.761 Right. 00:05:08.761 --> 00:05:12.451 And then I learned how to communicate with people more effectively and 00:05:12.451 --> 00:05:13.951 in a way that builds relationships. 00:05:13.951 --> 00:05:16.291 And it's not just me watching somebody do something, but 00:05:16.291 --> 00:05:17.581 actually engaging with them. 00:05:17.941 --> 00:05:21.301 And then building, building a following, building an audience, whatever you want 00:05:21.301 --> 00:05:24.661 to call it, just like gathering people around you around the common cause 00:05:24.671 --> 00:05:26.821 around the common topic of interest. 00:05:26.886 --> 00:05:31.376 So yeah, I was really not using Twitter effectively because I didn't 00:05:31.406 --> 00:05:33.176 care, or I didn't really know. 00:05:33.206 --> 00:05:39.532 I don't think I knew how and that Twitter could be used in a way that I could then 00:05:39.562 --> 00:05:41.422 leverage in a more professional sense. 00:05:41.662 --> 00:05:44.212 So I was really just like following random people. 00:05:44.212 --> 00:05:45.772 I was not following intentionally. 00:05:45.802 --> 00:05:48.892 I was engaging with people when I thought I had something 00:05:49.192 --> 00:05:50.242 really, really cool to see. 00:05:50.897 --> 00:05:54.797 And not in any other situation, I was less responsive. 00:05:54.837 --> 00:05:56.747 I didn't read the tweets ever. 00:05:56.747 --> 00:06:00.257 I just, you know, and I use Twitter, like a person that didn't really 00:06:00.257 --> 00:06:01.727 know how to use Twitter efficiently. 00:06:02.027 --> 00:06:04.767 And that's fine, I guess, because most people don't, then everybody has a 00:06:04.767 --> 00:06:07.047 different reason why they come to Twitter. 00:06:07.167 --> 00:06:09.957 That's one of the first things that I went into for the course, because I 00:06:09.957 --> 00:06:12.507 was thinking, Hey, I'm going to make a course for people who want to use Twitter 00:06:12.507 --> 00:06:14.487 professionally, what do they need to know? 00:06:14.487 --> 00:06:14.757 Right. 00:06:14.757 --> 00:06:15.267 From the start. 00:06:15.567 --> 00:06:19.377 And under the two things that I figured out in my reflection on this, I 00:06:19.377 --> 00:06:20.997 actually, I didn't just make a course. 00:06:20.997 --> 00:06:25.167 I wrote 42,000 words of a script and then narrate it that through a 00:06:25.167 --> 00:06:26.937 teleprompter, into a camera, essentially. 00:06:26.937 --> 00:06:30.327 That's what my courses, because that's how I I'm best I write first. 00:06:30.327 --> 00:06:33.597 And then I record either for my podcast or no for this course. 00:06:33.837 --> 00:06:39.327 So I really wrote it all out and edited it myself and thought about it. 00:06:39.327 --> 00:06:43.901 And I think, the two main things you need to know is why am I on Twitter as the 00:06:43.901 --> 00:06:45.251 person who wants to build an audience? 00:06:45.431 --> 00:06:48.701 And why are the people that I want to be in my audience on Twitter, as well. 00:06:48.881 --> 00:06:50.861 And then you need to bridge these two things, right? 00:06:50.951 --> 00:06:54.191 Like if you're a software engineer and you really want to build a blog so that 00:06:54.191 --> 00:06:58.271 your future employers can see how cool you are and you want to be on Twitter, 00:06:58.271 --> 00:07:01.481 so you can build a little audience around yourself so that you can get into, I don't 00:07:01.481 --> 00:07:03.521 know, Google or any other cool startup. 00:07:03.671 --> 00:07:07.681 Well, then you need to know why special and what you can bring to the table 00:07:07.921 --> 00:07:11.941 and what the people that you want to see your stuff come to Twitter 00:07:11.941 --> 00:07:13.231 for, so you can provide it to them. 00:07:13.531 --> 00:07:16.381 Or if you want to build a community around a particular social issue, 00:07:16.591 --> 00:07:19.171 you need to understand what is your approach that makes you interesting. 00:07:19.321 --> 00:07:21.811 And why do people who have also interested in that issue? 00:07:21.811 --> 00:07:22.531 Why are they on Twitter? 00:07:22.531 --> 00:07:24.211 What are they talking about and where are they? 00:07:24.511 --> 00:07:27.531 And that's, you need to figure out first, because all this stuff that 00:07:27.531 --> 00:07:29.699 you find in and Twitter advice. 00:07:29.729 --> 00:07:31.499 It's very marketing, very salesy. 00:07:31.799 --> 00:07:35.099 And how do I get people to follow me so that I can sell them something? 00:07:35.279 --> 00:07:35.999 And that is fine. 00:07:35.999 --> 00:07:38.759 You can build a Twitter audience to sell people something that's fine. 00:07:38.759 --> 00:07:39.839 Monetizing is okay. 00:07:39.989 --> 00:07:40.649 It's legal. 00:07:40.679 --> 00:07:41.489 We can do this. 00:07:41.489 --> 00:07:42.029 That's okay. 00:07:42.029 --> 00:07:46.236 But you, you still have to be on Twitter for a reason for people to follow you 00:07:46.236 --> 00:07:50.578 as a not just as a brand, not just as somebody who has a cool product, 00:07:50.728 --> 00:07:54.298 but as a person that they want to engage with, because that relationship 00:07:54.328 --> 00:07:57.748 is so much more important than any transaction you could potentially have. 00:07:58.048 --> 00:08:01.078 And that's what I figured out at some point, people aren't on Twitter 00:08:01.378 --> 00:08:02.548 because they want to be friends with. 00:08:03.151 --> 00:08:05.911 They are on Twitter because they want to be friends with their peers, people 00:08:05.911 --> 00:08:09.271 who are doing the exact same thing they're doing, or they got just a bit 00:08:09.541 --> 00:08:12.961 ahead of them on the journey, or just a bit behind them on their journey. 00:08:13.111 --> 00:08:14.551 They just want to connect with people. 00:08:14.731 --> 00:08:18.091 And once you figure out that this is what people want, you learn how they 00:08:18.091 --> 00:08:21.241 connect with people, and then you can provide things, opportunities for 00:08:21.241 --> 00:08:22.531 them to actually connect with you. 00:08:22.831 --> 00:08:25.368 And that's , why the course exists because I figured this out for me. 00:08:26.188 --> 00:08:28.818 I did it in public for two years. 00:08:29.038 --> 00:08:31.848 Been building all my stuff in public because I find that very interesting 00:08:32.028 --> 00:08:36.018 to give people that kind of glimpse into the journey and that resonated so 00:08:36.018 --> 00:08:37.668 much with an audience that it grew to. 00:08:37.698 --> 00:08:38.088 Yeah. 00:08:38.088 --> 00:08:39.738 I must be 50,000 by now. 00:08:40.038 --> 00:08:40.898 So that. 00:08:41.803 --> 00:08:43.483 And I'm sharing the path that worked for me. 00:08:43.483 --> 00:08:47.353 And that I see working for other people who are doing this, like Noah brag, right? 00:08:47.443 --> 00:08:48.823 Amazing builder in public. 00:08:48.823 --> 00:08:53.713 He's building potion, his little notion to aesthetic websites tool in public 00:08:53.713 --> 00:08:57.673 every day to something really cool out there where you have Matt Wensing, who you 00:08:57.673 --> 00:08:59.803 had on the show, who's building summit. 00:09:00.103 --> 00:09:04.033 Amazing tool in a totally different kind of SAS space, right? 00:09:04.033 --> 00:09:06.073 Financial projection, and prediction. 00:09:06.343 --> 00:09:08.653 And he's so good at building and public. 00:09:08.893 --> 00:09:12.643 Everything he does on Twitter is kind of, it's a smart thing, 00:09:12.793 --> 00:09:14.773 it's related to two businesses. 00:09:14.773 --> 00:09:18.223 It's sometimes not, it doesn't seem related to his product, but it 00:09:18.223 --> 00:09:21.943 kind of is, and he knows what he's doing and he's doing it so well. 00:09:21.943 --> 00:09:25.033 There are so many great examples out there and I kind of pulled them all together. 00:09:25.333 --> 00:09:26.473 For other people to find. 00:09:26.473 --> 00:09:28.123 And that's why I made this course, right. 00:09:28.123 --> 00:09:29.413 That's really why I'm doing this. 00:09:29.413 --> 00:09:32.593 But of course the aside, I'm just super interested in those people, 00:09:32.623 --> 00:09:36.253 in what they do and how you can leverage what are to teach. 00:09:36.689 --> 00:09:37.259 Michele: Yeah. 00:09:37.289 --> 00:09:39.389 So let's do a hypothetical. 00:09:39.539 --> 00:09:45.659 Let's say that I am a developer with a side project that 00:09:45.689 --> 00:09:47.519 does not have any customers. 00:09:47.819 --> 00:09:55.229 And I have 15 followers on twitter, and I tweet three times a week. 00:09:55.259 --> 00:09:59.369 And they're mostly interesting articles that I find on hacker news. 00:09:59.669 --> 00:10:07.859 What are five things that I should do to grow my following and get 00:10:07.859 --> 00:10:09.429 some customers for my side project. 00:10:09.449 --> 00:10:14.129 Arvid: The first thing is stopped tweeting into a void because the fact that you have 00:10:14.129 --> 00:10:18.269 so few followers means that whenever you tweet, when you write a tweet and send it 00:10:18.269 --> 00:10:20.609 on Twitter, barely anybody will read it. 00:10:20.909 --> 00:10:25.049 Like you, you can be pretty sure that only one in 10 of your followers 00:10:25.049 --> 00:10:26.399 will ever get to see anything. 00:10:26.874 --> 00:10:28.644 That's just how Twitter's algorithm works. 00:10:28.944 --> 00:10:29.154 Right? 00:10:29.184 --> 00:10:32.514 You would think you tweet and they all see it at some point in that timeline. 00:10:32.784 --> 00:10:33.864 That's not the case. 00:10:33.864 --> 00:10:36.114 Most people won't even get it into that timeline. 00:10:36.174 --> 00:10:39.594 And most of the people who do will scroll over it because somebody 00:10:39.594 --> 00:10:42.874 else that they find more interesting has something else to say that. 00:10:43.549 --> 00:10:44.749 That resonates more with them. 00:10:44.929 --> 00:10:49.059 So it's super tough for somebody with no audience to just tweet and hope that they 00:10:49.059 --> 00:10:50.589 grow an audience from that doesn't work. 00:10:50.799 --> 00:10:53.349 What does work is engaging with people where they're 00:10:53.349 --> 00:10:54.879 already having conversations? 00:10:55.179 --> 00:10:55.929 It's like if you go 00:10:56.034 --> 00:10:57.204 Michele: So like replying. 00:10:57.504 --> 00:10:57.714 Arvid: yeah, 00:10:57.744 --> 00:10:58.584 Essentially it's, 00:10:58.689 --> 00:10:59.709 Michele: tweet myself, but 00:10:59.709 --> 00:11:01.269 reply to other people. 00:11:01.319 --> 00:11:04.701 Arvid: Yeah, contributes to something like with all things in human 00:11:04.701 --> 00:11:09.261 communication, standing there on your little soap box and yelling into the 00:11:09.261 --> 00:11:12.891 park that you're sending in will only make people think you're kind of weird. 00:11:13.161 --> 00:11:15.831 If you go to a party and you send in the middle of the room and you 00:11:15.831 --> 00:11:19.671 just start talking about the things you like to, nobody in particular. 00:11:19.971 --> 00:11:21.501 You will not attract people. 00:11:21.531 --> 00:11:25.161 Like people will stay clear of you, but if you join the conversation with 00:11:25.161 --> 00:11:28.431 three or four, people have gathered, and they're already talking about an 00:11:28.431 --> 00:11:32.661 interesting topic that you just listen for a couple seconds, maybe a couple 00:11:32.661 --> 00:11:35.541 of minutes, and then you have something that you can actually meaningfully 00:11:35.571 --> 00:11:37.851 contribute that will make you interesting. 00:11:38.001 --> 00:11:38.151 Right? 00:11:38.151 --> 00:11:39.351 That's the perfect example. 00:11:39.351 --> 00:11:42.561 Like if you go to a group of people and you listen for a second, and then 00:11:42.561 --> 00:11:46.131 you adjust what you have to say to fit into their ongoing conversation. 00:11:46.641 --> 00:11:49.851 They will look at you, invite you into the group and now you're one of them. 00:11:50.151 --> 00:11:51.911 And that is essentially what Twitter is all about. 00:11:51.931 --> 00:11:55.251 You join conversations, you join communities, you establish yourself 00:11:55.281 --> 00:11:59.811 as a contributor to this community, by just replying to people with your ideas. 00:11:59.901 --> 00:12:03.321 Maybe those three links that you've been posting about are something 00:12:03.321 --> 00:12:07.221 interesting that somebody else could learn something from in an ongoing 00:12:07.221 --> 00:12:11.021 conversation about a similar topic, and you bring it to that conversation 00:12:11.021 --> 00:12:13.061 instead of just tweeting it into the void. 00:12:13.421 --> 00:12:14.481 That is the most simple. 00:12:15.136 --> 00:12:19.606 Michele: step one, don't tweet into the void, but reply to existing conversation. 00:12:20.357 --> 00:12:21.977 Arvid: Yeah, and that kind of engagement. 00:12:21.977 --> 00:12:24.677 That's what I kind of call it on Twitter, it's to engage with 00:12:24.677 --> 00:12:26.507 people that can take many shapes. 00:12:26.657 --> 00:12:29.957 That can be a nice reply where you add something that, you know, 00:12:30.137 --> 00:12:31.517 it could just be a question. 00:12:31.757 --> 00:12:32.657 It could be Okay. 00:12:32.657 --> 00:12:33.707 Can you clarify this? 00:12:33.707 --> 00:12:34.997 I didn't understand that part. 00:12:35.057 --> 00:12:38.807 And then you get another conversation going, you get an interaction with 00:12:38.807 --> 00:12:41.117 the extra person that tweeted, so now you have some sort of, 00:12:41.587 --> 00:12:45.427 starting to Kindle a relationship and connection with that person by 00:12:45.517 --> 00:12:47.707 showing interest in that conversation. 00:12:47.767 --> 00:12:52.477 Or you can invite somebody who, you know, could benefit from being exposed 00:12:52.477 --> 00:12:55.967 to this conversation and other expert on Twitter, into the conversation. 00:12:55.967 --> 00:12:58.837 Or you could disseminate the conversation out by just retreating 00:12:58.837 --> 00:13:01.769 it to your admittedly low follower account, but you would still maybe 00:13:02.099 --> 00:13:03.149 invite a couple of more people. 00:13:03.149 --> 00:13:07.319 There are so many ways to engage with a conversation other than just replying, 00:13:07.469 --> 00:13:10.709 and you don't want to turn into this kind of reply guy, person that just 00:13:10.709 --> 00:13:15.569 replies all the time to try and get into the buzz of the conversation. 00:13:15.749 --> 00:13:17.039 So just like spread it out. 00:13:17.039 --> 00:13:20.849 There's many different ways of giving meaning and adding something 00:13:21.029 --> 00:13:22.379 to an ongoing conversation. 00:13:22.931 --> 00:13:26.692 And that brings me to a second point, because that is something that you can do 00:13:26.812 --> 00:13:29.242 when you're exposed to this conversations. 00:13:29.272 --> 00:13:29.542 Right. 00:13:29.812 --> 00:13:34.162 You have to see them happening to be able to engage with them and 00:13:34.162 --> 00:13:37.505 that kind of has a prerequisite and that is following the right people. 00:13:37.625 --> 00:13:38.225 So if you. 00:13:38.825 --> 00:13:43.595 I don't know really where to source these interesting conversations that you want 00:13:43.595 --> 00:13:48.995 to join, you have to start with exploring your space and following those influential 00:13:49.175 --> 00:13:53.915 kind of you would call them influencers or nexus communicators, or community 00:13:53.915 --> 00:13:55.625 leaders, whatever you want to call them. 00:13:55.745 --> 00:14:00.815 People who kind of control, or at least very strongly influence the conversations 00:14:00.815 --> 00:14:03.275 in a particular field in our space. 00:14:03.395 --> 00:14:05.675 That would be people like Courtland Allen, who hosts. 00:14:06.265 --> 00:14:07.645 Indie hackers, podcasts, right? 00:14:07.645 --> 00:14:12.595 People who are super exposed to so many, many people or Rob walling who has a 00:14:12.595 --> 00:14:14.365 startup sort of for the rest of us. 00:14:14.575 --> 00:14:18.955 And you're kind of probably starting to understand that podcast hosts are really 00:14:18.955 --> 00:14:21.895 interesting people to follow on Twitter because they're connected to every. 00:14:22.535 --> 00:14:24.065 They're part of every conversation. 00:14:24.305 --> 00:14:25.925 You, Michelle, you are one of these people. 00:14:25.925 --> 00:14:29.465 Now, if you follow you, you get exposed to so many new people. 00:14:29.645 --> 00:14:32.705 And if people follow me, they will also get exposed to so many people. 00:14:32.855 --> 00:14:36.035 Now, there are certain people in any community that once you follow 00:14:36.035 --> 00:14:39.575 them, you will be part or you at least will see in your activity, 00:14:39.575 --> 00:14:41.285 feed interesting things happening. 00:14:41.615 --> 00:14:44.105 So that's the first thing you have to do is to go out 00:14:44.105 --> 00:14:45.695 there, find those nexus people. 00:14:45.695 --> 00:14:48.185 I call this nexus discovery because the nexus to me is 00:14:48.425 --> 00:14:49.805 where everything comes together. 00:14:50.045 --> 00:14:51.125 And you can do this by. 00:14:51.530 --> 00:14:55.940 Going on Twitter now and looking at who are the people with somewhat high-ish 00:14:56.030 --> 00:14:59.690 follower counts, or at least a lot of engagement in each community, following 00:14:59.690 --> 00:15:03.260 them, looking at their followers, seeing other people that you might 00:15:03.260 --> 00:15:06.530 find interesting, following them, doing some kind of recursion or looking at 00:15:06.530 --> 00:15:10.160 Twitter lists that those people are on and following the whole list, there are 00:15:10.160 --> 00:15:14.316 many, many different ways of exposing yourself to all these these conversations. 00:15:14.616 --> 00:15:17.586 And then you just set notifications for the people you'll find most interesting. 00:15:17.886 --> 00:15:22.236 And you get actual engagement notifications, so you can jump 00:15:22.236 --> 00:15:23.286 right into a conversation. 00:15:23.286 --> 00:15:23.976 when it happens. 00:15:24.336 --> 00:15:27.666 If you do only one thing, this is what you should do, follow the right people 00:15:27.666 --> 00:15:28.716 and then just interact with them. 00:15:29.016 --> 00:15:34.486 Michele: And I think something you're sort of saying here is also that it's you find 00:15:34.486 --> 00:15:39.526 that nexus person, for example, and it's not just about replying to that nexus 00:15:39.526 --> 00:15:44.386 person and trying to get them to follow you or apply to you, which I think you 00:15:44.386 --> 00:15:46.906 sort of alluded to the reply guy, right? 00:15:46.996 --> 00:15:51.256 It's actually going in there and sort of productively having the 00:15:51.256 --> 00:15:55.636 conversation with the people who are already in those mentions, like who are 00:15:55.636 --> 00:15:57.256 already replying to the conversation. 00:15:57.256 --> 00:16:01.966 So not necessarily, you know, replying to your tweet, for example, and trying 00:16:01.966 --> 00:16:05.181 to get a reply from you though, you will probably reply because you are 00:16:05.181 --> 00:16:08.991 you, but like, you know, seeing like, oh, here's these 20 other people 00:16:08.991 --> 00:16:10.191 who are following this conversation. 00:16:10.431 --> 00:16:11.721 And they have interesting things to say. 00:16:11.721 --> 00:16:16.880 And then, you know, having adding a question or adding a nice comment to that. 00:16:16.880 --> 00:16:22.550 And I guess I think a mistake I tend to see is that people will like be critical 00:16:22.550 --> 00:16:27.020 cause I think there's some, like there's a space for being critical, but you 00:16:27.020 --> 00:16:32.360 know, some people are socialized in environments where you show your worth and 00:16:32.360 --> 00:16:36.170 add value by being negative or critical. 00:16:36.470 --> 00:16:41.640 And I don't, I'm curious to hear your perspective on this like I find that 00:16:41.640 --> 00:16:47.784 you know, negativity or criticism on Twitter is really, really tricky 00:16:47.814 --> 00:16:51.504 and I tend to avoid it entirely. 00:16:51.613 --> 00:16:52.053 Arvid: Me too. 00:16:52.143 --> 00:16:52.833 Absolutely. 00:16:53.013 --> 00:16:53.223 Right. 00:16:53.313 --> 00:16:54.513 Sorry for interrupting. 00:16:54.523 --> 00:16:56.133 Do you, do you have anything else? 00:16:56.313 --> 00:16:57.757 Michele: No, that was my question was 00:16:57.942 --> 00:16:58.362 Arvid: Okay. 00:16:59.077 --> 00:17:03.407 Michele: it was sort of like, what will your take on, you know, should people 00:17:03.437 --> 00:17:06.757 reply with something critical, if they're trying to engage with others? 00:17:07.407 --> 00:17:08.757 Arvid: So anything you do on 00:17:08.757 --> 00:17:10.707 twitter is a performance. 00:17:10.767 --> 00:17:14.127 That, that is one of the main things that I have also understood. 00:17:14.127 --> 00:17:18.417 Like, even if you're just doing it in front of 20 or 30 people at public reply 00:17:18.657 --> 00:17:22.947 to a public tweet by somebody else, gets seen by three different entities. 00:17:23.127 --> 00:17:25.287 That is you, obviously, because you're part of it, the 00:17:25.287 --> 00:17:26.417 person that you've applied to. 00:17:26.982 --> 00:17:28.932 Everybody else, whoever gets to read it. 00:17:29.232 --> 00:17:33.132 And some people forget that this group of potentially millions of people 00:17:33.282 --> 00:17:37.122 exists out there and every single one of them will judge you for what you say. 00:17:37.512 --> 00:17:41.292 So you always have to consider that You are interacting 00:17:41.322 --> 00:17:43.242 with another public persona. 00:17:43.542 --> 00:17:48.522 I have a group of people that are listening and are judgemental 00:17:48.522 --> 00:17:51.192 in ways that you might not understand might not comprehend. 00:17:51.192 --> 00:17:54.372 You already mentioned the fact that people are brought up in different ways. 00:17:54.552 --> 00:17:57.732 I personally was brought up in a pretty neutral way. 00:17:57.732 --> 00:18:01.762 Like to me, it was fine to criticize, but you should always 00:18:01.762 --> 00:18:03.372 kind of see both Sites, right. 00:18:03.372 --> 00:18:06.612 That was kind of the devil's advocate situation that I was socialized into. 00:18:06.822 --> 00:18:09.612 That is okay to do if you announced that you're doing it. 00:18:09.972 --> 00:18:15.932 So I now live with a Canadian and here this straight up devil's advocate 00:18:15.932 --> 00:18:17.942 perspective is not much appreciated. 00:18:18.242 --> 00:18:21.902 So I have to kind of stop myself from going there, even though it's 00:18:21.902 --> 00:18:25.622 something that I often do and like to do, because it's interesting on an 00:18:25.622 --> 00:18:30.122 intellectual way in our conversations in our home, it is not much appreciated. 00:18:30.122 --> 00:18:32.252 And I it's fine because we talk about it and. 00:18:32.962 --> 00:18:35.242 But on Twitter, you don't get to talk about this. 00:18:35.442 --> 00:18:38.922 For two reasons, first off, the people who are listening, they don't talk to you. 00:18:38.952 --> 00:18:39.972 They don't interact with you. 00:18:39.972 --> 00:18:41.712 They just read, they are the lurkers, right? 00:18:41.712 --> 00:18:43.992 The potentially millions of people that are reading this public 00:18:44.322 --> 00:18:47.322 interaction that you're having with somebody else, they don't tell you 00:18:47.322 --> 00:18:48.792 what they think They just judge you. 00:18:49.092 --> 00:18:52.722 And second in the medium of text, there is no subtext. 00:18:52.752 --> 00:18:53.712 There is no nuance. 00:18:53.712 --> 00:18:58.863 There is no like hidden subtlety, text is text and everybody interprets 00:18:58.863 --> 00:19:00.753 that, text the way they read it. 00:19:01.053 --> 00:19:04.713 So that is something that is incredibly hard to pull off 00:19:05.013 --> 00:19:06.063 if you want to be critical. 00:19:06.363 --> 00:19:10.083 So I would never be just critical. 00:19:10.263 --> 00:19:15.543 I would always either preface it with devil's advocate or whatever you can 00:19:15.543 --> 00:19:18.856 do to make sure that people understand that, this is not criticality. 00:19:18.856 --> 00:19:22.201 This is not like an ad hominem situation where you attack the person. 00:19:22.321 --> 00:19:22.411 Okay. 00:19:23.016 --> 00:19:26.226 I want to talk about the argument, but honestly, I don't do this at all. 00:19:26.226 --> 00:19:30.786 I think I'm like you, I want Twitter to be an empowering and positive space and, 00:19:30.786 --> 00:19:36.756 everything that I add to a conversation will it's supposed to be positive and 00:19:36.756 --> 00:19:40.596 helping other people, which is that the other side of doing this as a performance. 00:19:40.596 --> 00:19:44.486 So it's a performative act because you want to help other People If that is 00:19:44.486 --> 00:19:47.426 my, the reason why I go to Twitter, one of my core values is empowerment 00:19:47.426 --> 00:19:50.761 is helping other people Uh, become better at whatever they want to do. 00:19:50.941 --> 00:19:55.291 So if that is why I'm there, then every single thing I do, at least 00:19:55.291 --> 00:19:57.691 a little bit have that as its goal. 00:19:57.961 --> 00:20:02.611 So just crushing somebody's dream or negating somebody's 00:20:02.611 --> 00:20:04.561 opinion will not do this. 00:20:04.561 --> 00:20:04.771 Right. 00:20:04.771 --> 00:20:06.271 It's gonna need to the opposite. 00:20:06.271 --> 00:20:08.581 It's going to be a disempowerment effect. 00:20:08.581 --> 00:20:09.451 So I don't want to do that. 00:20:09.841 --> 00:20:12.451 And that is why I publicly don't do this. 00:20:12.451 --> 00:20:13.831 I don't do it privately either. 00:20:13.981 --> 00:20:19.051 If there's something that is flat out wrong, I will still try to always see 00:20:19.051 --> 00:20:27.671 the other person as somebody who still worth being friendly to, and just kind to 00:20:27.971 --> 00:20:32.681 like showing them my perspective without pushing it towards them or onto them. 00:20:32.921 --> 00:20:35.111 And that's how I go about this. 00:20:35.111 --> 00:20:38.081 So, and, and if you're trying to build an audience, if you're trying to build 00:20:38.081 --> 00:20:42.311 a following of kind people, a friendly people, people like you, or people who 00:20:42.311 --> 00:20:46.841 you want to be like you, well, then don't the aggressive towards them. 00:20:46.991 --> 00:20:51.431 Don't be critical towards some, just give them the room to be, 00:20:51.641 --> 00:20:56.231 themselves and to have their own opinions and respect them for that. 00:20:56.231 --> 00:20:57.631 It's really all I can say to this. 00:20:57.631 --> 00:21:03.161 So yeah, I would definitely just caution anybody out there to be 00:21:03.161 --> 00:21:06.491 critical because Twitter is about like helping other people succeed. 00:21:06.491 --> 00:21:09.311 Right and PR critical stuff, rarely ever does it. 00:21:09.311 --> 00:21:10.331 Cause it gets misinterpreted. 00:21:10.481 --> 00:21:15.271 Michele: I think that idea that, you know, everything on Twitter is a performance. 00:21:15.571 --> 00:21:18.901 People will be judging you and interpreting it differently than 00:21:19.021 --> 00:21:22.801 you may be hoping for, I think that's what freaks people out about. 00:21:23.101 --> 00:21:24.811 Arvid: Yeah, I can see that. 00:21:24.811 --> 00:21:26.401 The thing is, it's not like that. 00:21:26.431 --> 00:21:30.451 That's the one thing about Twitter that once you, once you live with that 00:21:30.451 --> 00:21:32.221 for a little bit, you get used to it. 00:21:32.461 --> 00:21:36.601 You're always both on a stage and you're on a couch at the same time. 00:21:36.601 --> 00:21:39.661 You're on a couch with your buddies, like the four or five friends that you have. 00:21:39.961 --> 00:21:43.502 And in any given conversation on Twitter you, you kind of, you know, 00:21:43.502 --> 00:21:46.832 exchanging little things with them and you're having a nice conversation. 00:21:47.012 --> 00:21:50.312 And at the same time, you're on a stage in front of the millions potentially, right? 00:21:50.312 --> 00:21:53.402 Because it just takes one viral tweet for the thing to be exposed 00:21:53.402 --> 00:21:55.382 to literally millions of people. 00:21:55.682 --> 00:21:59.342 And you always have to live with the fact that you're doing both at the same time 00:21:59.402 --> 00:22:01.262 and you don't know which is currently. 00:22:01.865 --> 00:22:04.865 It's tough because that's just what a public medium, like Twitter does. 00:22:05.045 --> 00:22:07.175 Like Facebook is kind of different. 00:22:07.175 --> 00:22:10.265 If you're doing something in a Facebook group, it usually stays in the 00:22:10.265 --> 00:22:12.365 Facebook group or in a forum, right. 00:22:12.365 --> 00:22:16.055 It stays in this little community, but Twitter has this potential of this 00:22:16.055 --> 00:22:19.595 breakout effect where you get out of your community and you exposed to the whole 00:22:19.595 --> 00:22:25.343 world for good, or for bad that it makes this such a weird balance to think about. 00:22:25.643 --> 00:22:29.933 Honestly, everything you do in marketing is performative to begin 00:22:29.933 --> 00:22:33.203 with, and Twitter is marketing yourself, marketing your personal brand. 00:22:33.473 --> 00:22:35.093 You're doing something intentionally. 00:22:35.333 --> 00:22:38.093 You're sharing something because you want people to buy it or you're 00:22:38.093 --> 00:22:41.693 sharing something because you want people to donate to a charity or 00:22:41.743 --> 00:22:45.363 you just want to grow your, their awareness of you as a brand or as a 00:22:45.363 --> 00:22:48.473 person or your project, whatever the reason is you're on Twitter you're 00:22:48.473 --> 00:22:50.633 doing it for to reach a certain goal. 00:22:50.813 --> 00:22:53.633 So any step along the way is an intentional tactical 00:22:53.633 --> 00:22:58.283 or strategic implementation of action towards that goal. 00:22:58.583 --> 00:23:00.323 That makes it performative to begin with. 00:23:00.443 --> 00:23:03.323 Because you're doing it in front of an audience that you want to use in 00:23:03.323 --> 00:23:06.023 a certain way, or you want people to react to you in a certain way. 00:23:06.323 --> 00:23:09.893 I can understand how introverts and I consider myself one, it may not sound 00:23:09.893 --> 00:23:13.528 like it, but I kind of feel like one and I always felt like one have a lot of 00:23:13.528 --> 00:23:18.538 trouble with, and I'm only this outspoken about everything that I'm doing, because 00:23:18.538 --> 00:23:20.308 I've been speaking about it for years. 00:23:20.338 --> 00:23:22.768 Like in the beginning, I was also kind of shy, I didn't know 00:23:22.768 --> 00:23:25.888 what to say and how to phrase it, then this is my second language. 00:23:25.888 --> 00:23:28.468 So, You know, that's a whole other level on top of it. 00:23:28.468 --> 00:23:30.358 But you know, like if you care about. 00:23:31.093 --> 00:23:34.363 And you surround yourself with the right people, and I count you as one 00:23:34.363 --> 00:23:39.253 of these people for me, like you are an amazing person that is extremely kind and 00:23:39.403 --> 00:23:43.573 supportive, and you're the tide that lifts all the boats in our community as well. 00:23:43.873 --> 00:23:45.793 Well, how could I not want to talk to you? 00:23:46.033 --> 00:23:48.073 How could I not want to share things with you? 00:23:48.283 --> 00:23:48.523 Right. 00:23:48.523 --> 00:23:52.283 That's why I'm doing this because I've surrounded myself with wonderful people 00:23:52.343 --> 00:23:56.458 that have the same goals that I have, which is making the internet economy, 00:23:56.458 --> 00:24:00.958 a thing for people to explore, being a creator, being a writer, being a SaaS 00:24:00.958 --> 00:24:04.358 entrepreneur, whatever it is making this a possibility for more people. 00:24:04.628 --> 00:24:08.538 And if that is my goal, I can live with the fact that people are watching. 00:24:08.838 --> 00:24:14.028 In fact, I embrace that and I try to be as authentically me as possible while 00:24:14.058 --> 00:24:19.478 knowing that there is like 50,000 people listening to everything I'm saying it's, 00:24:19.478 --> 00:24:23.658 it's, it's a super hard balance to strike and it definitely takes some reflecting, 00:24:23.868 --> 00:24:27.505 but once you understand it, once you accept it, you can use it for good. 00:24:27.775 --> 00:24:28.475 That's my perspective. 00:24:29.028 --> 00:24:33.200 Michele: You are incredibly kind Arvid you know, it strikes me that, I've 00:24:33.200 --> 00:24:37.964 said how I think the reason why I'm was able to write a book about interviewing 00:24:37.964 --> 00:24:42.194 users and about active listening is because I really had to learn it myself. 00:24:42.494 --> 00:24:45.254 I had to really get comfortable with it at a level that most people don't, 00:24:45.254 --> 00:24:51.374 and it strikes me that perhaps you, as an introvert, you know, had to learn 00:24:51.374 --> 00:24:55.364 marketing, had to learn this performance side of it and had to learn how, you 00:24:55.364 --> 00:24:57.224 know, Twitter is about relationships. 00:24:57.224 --> 00:25:00.854 And it's a sort of coffee shop, bulletin board, so to speak, like it 00:25:00.854 --> 00:25:06.284 strikes me that, because you're an introvert you had to learn all of these 00:25:06.584 --> 00:25:11.324 particularities sort of about how the ecosystem of Twitter works, because 00:25:11.624 --> 00:25:13.904 it did not come naturally to you. 00:25:14.204 --> 00:25:20.044 And I wonder how, like, I think of my example, person with 15 00:25:20.044 --> 00:25:21.604 followers and their side project. 00:25:21.904 --> 00:25:23.974 They're listening to this and thinking, oh my God, the whole thing 00:25:23.974 --> 00:25:27.214 is a performance and people are going to judge me and I could go viral 00:25:27.214 --> 00:25:30.124 and I have to reply to these famous people, but I actually don't reply 00:25:30.124 --> 00:25:31.624 to them, I reply to the other people. 00:25:31.924 --> 00:25:35.884 And then somehow all of this is going to get me customers for my side project. 00:25:35.884 --> 00:25:37.594 And I'm like, where am I going to spend all this time? 00:25:37.594 --> 00:25:38.624 Replying to people? 00:25:38.624 --> 00:25:41.561 I already have a job and I have a family, and I don't have very much time. 00:25:41.561 --> 00:25:45.581 Shouldn't I just be building features instead and, oh, and by the way, I could 00:25:45.581 --> 00:25:48.701 accidentally criticize someone and then go viral, and then everyone hates me. 00:25:48.701 --> 00:25:50.261 Like, no. 00:25:50.561 --> 00:25:54.281 And so it kind of strikes me as, emotionally, what was the transition for 00:25:54.281 --> 00:26:00.371 you getting comfortable with the idea of like, of putting yourself out there 00:26:00.371 --> 00:26:02.581 more and having these conversations. 00:26:02.881 --> 00:26:03.241 Arvid: Hm. 00:26:03.297 --> 00:26:06.858 I'm trying not to be too, too sarcastic here, but the first thing 00:26:06.858 --> 00:26:10.338 that came to my mind just now was, well, I noticed that nobody cared. 00:26:10.728 --> 00:26:13.978 That's kind of my first experience was really, nobody cared. 00:26:14.098 --> 00:26:16.228 Nobody cared about the things I said in the beginning. 00:26:16.303 --> 00:26:20.323 And, and still to this day, nobody really seems to care about the mistakes I make. 00:26:20.353 --> 00:26:24.283 Let me just rephrase that into a more relative terms. 00:26:24.283 --> 00:26:28.032 When I launched my course, whitewater course, that launched tweet, I had 00:26:28.032 --> 00:26:32.632 a typo in it and, I just noticed that like 30 seconds after I tweeted 00:26:32.632 --> 00:26:35.932 it out and I was like oh no, I have a typo in my launch tweet, people 00:26:35.952 --> 00:26:37.302 are going to see this forever. 00:26:37.482 --> 00:26:42.132 And I was just about to delete the tweet when I got a notification on my phone that 00:26:42.132 --> 00:26:43.782 the first person had bought my course. 00:26:44.082 --> 00:26:47.922 I couldn't even delete my launch tweet fast enough for people to 00:26:47.922 --> 00:26:51.822 not care about my typo instilled by it and purchase my info product. 00:26:52.072 --> 00:26:56.117 I've had these moments so often, I thought, oh no, this is the worst. 00:26:56.117 --> 00:26:58.547 I made a mistake and nobody noticed it. 00:26:58.667 --> 00:27:01.937 And people only really cared about the thing that actually gave 00:27:01.937 --> 00:27:03.647 them something of value right. 00:27:03.797 --> 00:27:07.447 I let it just stay on, it's still in my pin tweet. 00:27:07.477 --> 00:27:09.968 Like there's a quotation mark in the wrong place. 00:27:09.968 --> 00:27:11.078 It's really not a problem. 00:27:11.078 --> 00:27:12.728 Nobody really sees that. 00:27:13.118 --> 00:27:14.528 And nobody cares about it. 00:27:14.768 --> 00:27:16.658 People who care about the thing that I helped them. 00:27:17.153 --> 00:27:19.673 Not my own insecurities about how I phrased it. 00:27:19.823 --> 00:27:20.033 Right. 00:27:20.033 --> 00:27:22.337 That's, that's kind of one of the things that I noticed very quickly. 00:27:22.337 --> 00:27:26.124 And that is a recent example, but forever on Twitter that I 00:27:26.124 --> 00:27:29.394 started writing in public and launching my blog posts and stuff. 00:27:29.634 --> 00:27:33.494 The people who cared about it in a way that I could actually 00:27:33.494 --> 00:27:36.314 help them in their lives, they cared about the important stuff. 00:27:36.314 --> 00:27:38.294 They cared about the stuff that actually impacted them. 00:27:38.474 --> 00:27:41.894 They didn't care about my shortcomings, my imposter syndrome, 00:27:41.894 --> 00:27:43.484 my nervousness of whatever. 00:27:43.634 --> 00:27:47.624 They just don't care about it because if everybody on this planet cares 00:27:47.624 --> 00:27:49.304 about one person and that's mostly. 00:27:49.909 --> 00:27:53.629 And once you understand that people don't care about what you care about, 00:27:53.929 --> 00:27:57.979 unless you are actively preventing them from reaching their goals. 00:27:58.249 --> 00:28:01.039 Really what it is, you can do almost anything you can 00:28:01.039 --> 00:28:02.269 experiment with your stuff. 00:28:02.269 --> 00:28:04.669 You can tweet about things that you find interesting. 00:28:05.029 --> 00:28:08.639 Look at if it creates resonance With people, you can give people. 00:28:08.639 --> 00:28:12.844 Positive or critical responses, whatever it is, people won't really 00:28:12.844 --> 00:28:17.404 care until you step too far and you will learn this, which is why starting 00:28:17.404 --> 00:28:18.574 with these kinds of experiments. 00:28:18.574 --> 00:28:20.854 When you don't have many followers is actually the best thing you 00:28:20.854 --> 00:28:24.244 can do, because then you're not exposed to hundreds of thousands of 00:28:24.244 --> 00:28:25.834 people you're just exposed to 20. 00:28:26.134 --> 00:28:29.464 And if you say something that nobody cares about while you will see, because 00:28:29.464 --> 00:28:31.144 none of those people will react to it. 00:28:31.444 --> 00:28:33.874 Say something that like three or four care about it, then you've 00:28:33.874 --> 00:28:37.324 got to hit and then you can learn from that and write more like that. 00:28:37.594 --> 00:28:37.804 Right? 00:28:37.954 --> 00:28:42.004 It's like, really the people will give you a lot of leeway if 00:28:42.004 --> 00:28:43.234 you're just friendly with them. 00:28:43.234 --> 00:28:45.904 If you're kind to them, if you support them in what they are 00:28:45.904 --> 00:28:47.734 doing, you can almost do anything. 00:28:47.734 --> 00:28:51.274 And create these kinds of nightmare scenarios. 00:28:51.634 --> 00:28:56.038 And yeah, it's the same, like in my course, I totally miss attribute 00:28:56.038 --> 00:28:58.378 a book title to another author. 00:28:58.378 --> 00:29:02.406 In the course, I say that Derek Sivers wrote start with why, which you obviously 00:29:02.406 --> 00:29:05.946 didn't, that was Simon Sinek, but I just mixed it up during a recording. 00:29:05.946 --> 00:29:11.349 My brain went into a weird state that I set the wrong name and It took people, 00:29:11.499 --> 00:29:15.549 it took like a hundred or something students to actually start the course 00:29:15.849 --> 00:29:17.559 two for one to figure this out. 00:29:17.859 --> 00:29:21.609 Like the other 99 didn't care to take care more about what the 00:29:21.609 --> 00:29:22.869 course can actually teach them. 00:29:23.169 --> 00:29:25.629 Then the little mistake that I made while recording it. 00:29:25.989 --> 00:29:29.079 So if that can happen at that scale, you tweeting something 00:29:29.079 --> 00:29:30.369 weird, that will also be fine. 00:29:30.519 --> 00:29:33.699 And the thing is about Twitter, even though it's performative. 00:29:33.759 --> 00:29:37.059 And if you're an introvert that already is hard to talk to people, 00:29:37.179 --> 00:29:40.222 but you can always consider Twitter, a place where you find friends. 00:29:40.282 --> 00:29:43.342 You making friends, you finding people just like yourself, and 00:29:43.342 --> 00:29:45.982 you're just exchanging stuff that you both find interesting. 00:29:46.312 --> 00:29:48.862 It's like a meetup, you know, where you go, 00:29:48.922 --> 00:29:51.412 you don't really know the people, but you know, they have to success 00:29:51.412 --> 00:29:53.692 I'm interested because you're both going to the JavaScript meetup. 00:29:53.872 --> 00:29:55.342 Well, I guess everybody here likes. 00:29:55.937 --> 00:29:56.177 Right. 00:29:56.327 --> 00:29:57.827 So it's the same on Twitter. 00:29:57.827 --> 00:30:00.557 If you find those people, those nexus people that have the same interest 00:30:00.557 --> 00:30:03.967 as you have, well, their audience will have the exact same interests. 00:30:03.967 --> 00:30:08.387 So whenever you interact with the, let's say with JavaScript engineering, 00:30:08.627 --> 00:30:11.957 you interact with somebody who's big in the JavaScript community 00:30:12.167 --> 00:30:13.517 and you interact with their tweets. 00:30:13.607 --> 00:30:16.737 You're now exposed to this audience of other people who also love JavaScript. 00:30:16.907 --> 00:30:18.497 Or love, hate JavaScripts. 00:30:18.497 --> 00:30:20.927 That's maybe not the perfect example, but you know, you're 00:30:20.957 --> 00:30:24.599 exposing yourself to an audience of at least intersecting interests. 00:30:24.869 --> 00:30:27.389 And that's where this audience audition concept comes in, that they 00:30:27.389 --> 00:30:28.559 kind of hinted at earlier, right? 00:30:28.779 --> 00:30:31.302 You're not interacting with the JavaScript influence. 00:30:31.302 --> 00:30:32.772 So you don't want them to follow you. 00:30:32.892 --> 00:30:35.952 You want their audience to follow you because they have 40,000 00:30:35.952 --> 00:30:37.492 people that are following them. 00:30:37.492 --> 00:30:39.832 You want a couple of those people to be interested in you. 00:30:40.072 --> 00:30:42.955 That's why you interact with the influencer stuff, not to get the 00:30:42.955 --> 00:30:47.245 influencers attention, but to get the attention of the pre filtered 00:30:47.245 --> 00:30:51.085 audience that they have that is already really compatible with you. 00:30:51.445 --> 00:30:54.205 And if you consider Twitter making friends with other people who are. 00:30:54.858 --> 00:30:56.058 Then it's so much easier. 00:30:56.418 --> 00:30:59.388 It's so much more enjoyable too, because then it becomes more of the 00:30:59.388 --> 00:31:01.548 couch and less of the stage, right. 00:31:01.898 --> 00:31:05.058 You always have to, at some point consider that you are in a stage, 00:31:05.088 --> 00:31:07.788 but that really only happens when you have a couple thousand followers. 00:31:08.058 --> 00:31:12.378 Anything below that, most people will recognize you as one of them, right? 00:31:12.378 --> 00:31:13.908 There is no big exposure. 00:31:14.178 --> 00:31:18.438 It's not that you are one of those huge accounts that everybody wants to follow. 00:31:18.708 --> 00:31:21.618 You're just a person interacting with other people, and making 00:31:21.618 --> 00:31:23.478 friends is very easy at that point. 00:31:23.658 --> 00:31:26.868 And if you consider every interaction that you have as a potential of making 00:31:26.868 --> 00:31:30.348 friends, Then you will also speak to people differently because if you want 00:31:30.348 --> 00:31:32.898 to make a friend, you don't go there and tell them about your products. 00:31:33.108 --> 00:31:33.288 Right? 00:31:33.288 --> 00:31:36.198 Imagine that if that was how we made friends, like you go to a 00:31:36.198 --> 00:31:38.628 person at a party and you tell them, Hey, I have this cool product. 00:31:38.628 --> 00:31:39.858 It's only $10 when you buy it. 00:31:40.098 --> 00:31:44.028 Nobody does that because that's not how you built a relationship with a person. 00:31:44.298 --> 00:31:44.838 You go there. 00:31:44.838 --> 00:31:45.768 SMA, how are you doing? 00:31:45.768 --> 00:31:46.398 What do you do? 00:31:46.608 --> 00:31:47.148 And what do you find? 00:31:47.148 --> 00:31:47.598 Interesting. 00:31:47.598 --> 00:31:50.068 How do you know the host that you asked them about themselves? 00:31:50.338 --> 00:31:53.308 You asked them to tell them more about you so you can tell. 00:31:53.608 --> 00:31:56.218 About yourself and, build on common ground. 00:31:56.398 --> 00:31:58.468 That's how you do this in real life. 00:31:58.678 --> 00:32:00.028 Why wouldn't you do it on Twitter? 00:32:00.268 --> 00:32:01.918 Why would you post stuff? 00:32:01.948 --> 00:32:06.328 Why would you put links to your newsletter as the very first thing you do when 00:32:06.328 --> 00:32:07.498 you interact with the new person? 00:32:07.798 --> 00:32:08.668 That's not how you do it. 00:32:08.668 --> 00:32:12.183 You make friends on Twitter and once you understand that it becomes so 00:32:12.183 --> 00:32:14.133 much easier and so much less scary. 00:32:14.482 --> 00:32:16.692 Michele: Twitter to find friends. 00:32:16.722 --> 00:32:17.052 Right. 00:32:17.082 --> 00:32:19.932 I feel like wasn't that the tagline, that the place for friends was not like 00:32:19.932 --> 00:32:22.872 Facebook or mySpace, maybe their tagline. 00:32:22.872 --> 00:32:23.262 Right. 00:32:23.262 --> 00:32:24.702 It was like, I think maybe 00:32:25.002 --> 00:32:26.152 Arvid: We're kind of dating ourselves. 00:32:26.202 --> 00:32:27.012 See, I think 00:32:27.482 --> 00:32:29.042 Michele: Hey, my space taught me how to code. 00:32:29.042 --> 00:32:29.442 So 00:32:29.452 --> 00:32:30.352 Arvid: Isn't that amazing? 00:32:30.382 --> 00:32:33.142 I think I did a couple of cool backgrounds back then as well. 00:32:33.922 --> 00:32:34.372 Um, 00:32:34.552 --> 00:32:37.762 Michele: But so, you know, if you want to grow your following on Twitter, if you're 00:32:37.762 --> 00:32:42.652 on Twitter, cause you want people to buy your stuff for, you know, except your 00:32:42.652 --> 00:32:45.304 conference pitches or whatever they are. 00:32:45.304 --> 00:32:46.037 Be a friend. 00:32:46.187 --> 00:32:51.348 Don't be somebody standing with a megaphone on a soapbox, you know, interact 00:32:51.348 --> 00:32:54.014 with people, and be a real person. 00:32:54.058 --> 00:32:56.520 And be a pleasant person, at the party, so to speak. 00:32:56.520 --> 00:32:58.050 Arvid: That's where opportunity comes from, right? 00:32:58.080 --> 00:33:00.420 It's not from them buying an ebook for $10. 00:33:00.690 --> 00:33:04.950 It's from them remembering you when a, another gigantic project comes up 00:33:04.980 --> 00:33:06.990 and they need somebody to, do copies. 00:33:07.290 --> 00:33:12.710 Or when, a potential partnership as, as in the making and they wonder what 00:33:12.710 --> 00:33:14.360 would be the best person to partner with. 00:33:14.490 --> 00:33:18.030 Those are the opportunities you're seeking, not the $10 from one interaction. 00:33:18.220 --> 00:33:21.085 That's the transactional nature of sales and marketing that is so 00:33:21.085 --> 00:33:22.855 incompatible with relationship building. 00:33:23.185 --> 00:33:23.365 Right. 00:33:23.365 --> 00:33:23.815 You, you don't. 00:33:24.468 --> 00:33:24.738 Yeah. 00:33:24.738 --> 00:33:24.978 You don't 00:33:24.993 --> 00:33:27.363 Michele: like build relationships on Twitter. 00:33:27.440 --> 00:33:30.380 I feel like I heard someone say once that Twitter is the product 00:33:30.410 --> 00:33:31.970 that LinkedIn wants to do. 00:33:32.270 --> 00:33:33.170 Arvid: Yeah, I guess. 00:33:33.440 --> 00:33:33.740 Yeah. 00:33:33.770 --> 00:33:37.460 And that's because Twitter allows people to use Twitter however they want to, 00:33:37.760 --> 00:33:41.540 like LinkedIn is very prescriptive in the way you interact with each other. 00:33:41.670 --> 00:33:44.370 Just look at how people are even allowed to connect. 00:33:44.700 --> 00:33:44.880 Right? 00:33:44.880 --> 00:33:47.610 You have to allow people to connect with you. 00:33:47.790 --> 00:33:51.390 And the moment you've got some notoriety on LinkedIn, people have to dig really 00:33:51.390 --> 00:33:55.905 deep to connect with you bring up a reason to do it, have to link like oh, I went to 00:33:55.905 --> 00:34:00.435 the same school as them for somebody, for some reason, that is why you want to allow 00:34:00.435 --> 00:34:01.845 people to interact with other people. 00:34:01.935 --> 00:34:06.495 This social graph on linkedIn is so selective and so hard to establish. 00:34:06.615 --> 00:34:09.315 While on Twitter, you don't even need to follow an account 00:34:09.315 --> 00:34:10.275 to get their information. 00:34:10.395 --> 00:34:14.115 You can just follow a list with where they are on or you just follow a person 00:34:14.115 --> 00:34:18.135 that consistently retweets from that account and you get exposed to new people. 00:34:18.315 --> 00:34:19.305 Twitter is just so. 00:34:19.531 --> 00:34:23.491 Oh, I have a free space that people can use in any shape they want. 00:34:23.731 --> 00:34:26.521 And obviously that creates so much more opportunity because 00:34:26.521 --> 00:34:27.721 it allows for serendipity. 00:34:28.111 --> 00:34:30.331 LinkedIn does not allow for serendipity. 00:34:30.601 --> 00:34:34.111 Allows for really, really targeted interactions, but on Twitter, 00:34:34.111 --> 00:34:35.851 anything can happen for good or bad. 00:34:35.881 --> 00:34:36.121 Right? 00:34:36.131 --> 00:34:40.861 You have the whole shitstorm situation and I guess is there an opposite 00:34:40.861 --> 00:34:42.378 of a shitstorm, like a windfall. 00:34:42.378 --> 00:34:42.468 Love 00:34:42.468 --> 00:34:42.778 Michele: storm. 00:34:43.108 --> 00:34:43.358 Arvid: and lots 00:34:43.358 --> 00:34:43.738 of love storm. 00:34:44.088 --> 00:34:44.328 Yeah. 00:34:44.378 --> 00:34:48.678 But where people, all of a sudden get empowered and exposed to an audience of 00:34:48.678 --> 00:34:50.628 millions and their life changes in a day. 00:34:51.028 --> 00:34:51.298 Right. 00:34:51.298 --> 00:34:52.378 You have that too. 00:34:52.648 --> 00:34:57.028 And it's one of the most wonderful things to see when people have so much success, 00:34:57.208 --> 00:35:01.288 that they are just swept into a new level of existence, just from a tweet. 00:35:01.588 --> 00:35:05.368 I just find that wonderful and often it's cute animals and stuff, but you 00:35:05.368 --> 00:35:09.928 know, there are still also people who do meaningful things that have impact that 00:35:09.928 --> 00:35:14.368 now get exposed to so much larger audience and have so much more impact for the good. 00:35:14.668 --> 00:35:16.228 that is what Twitter allows you to do. 00:35:16.228 --> 00:35:20.878 And obviously that is in my eyes, that for somebody who has empowerment 00:35:21.088 --> 00:35:25.858 and support and motivation as my core values, that is the product for me. 00:35:26.158 --> 00:35:30.448 I could not do what I'm doing on LinkedIn but I can definitely do it on Twitter. 00:35:30.808 --> 00:35:32.368 And I I'm really grateful for that. 00:35:32.528 --> 00:35:35.288 Michele: Twitter as an incredibly powerful platform. 00:35:35.318 --> 00:35:41.978 And this here has been a very powerful mini masterclass in using. 00:35:42.598 --> 00:35:43.487 Effectively. 00:35:43.487 --> 00:35:47.164 Thank you so much for coming on today. 00:35:47.207 --> 00:35:51.273 If people want to, well, I mean, where can people find you. 00:35:51.573 --> 00:35:54.303 Arvid: Well, this will surprise you, but they could find me on twitter. 00:35:54.603 --> 00:35:58.913 Well, yeah, that's obviously the jump off point for everything I'm doing. 00:35:59.030 --> 00:36:03.730 I'm on Twitter at arvidkahl ARVID KAHL and I have a blog too. 00:36:03.730 --> 00:36:06.820 It's called the bootstrap founder, which you know, like where I write 00:36:06.880 --> 00:36:11.050 all my weekly blog posts and I have a podcast there as well, and all my 00:36:11.350 --> 00:36:14.200 books and stuff are linked there, but honestly just really interact with me on 00:36:14.200 --> 00:36:16.660 Twitter because that's what I like most. 00:36:16.690 --> 00:36:20.020 Because that's how you build a relationship with me by coming 00:36:20.020 --> 00:36:21.220 to a Twitter and talking to me. 00:36:21.520 --> 00:36:24.910 And I want that because I want to, talk to you dear listener. 00:36:25.120 --> 00:36:28.690 But honestly, because I think I can learn from every person out there, and 00:36:28.690 --> 00:36:32.500 I hope that I can teach something to any person out there a little bit, at least. 00:36:32.710 --> 00:36:33.400 So, yeah. 00:36:34.385 --> 00:36:35.465 My DMS are open. 00:36:35.795 --> 00:36:39.416 And that is something interesting when you have 50,000 followers, but I will 00:36:39.416 --> 00:36:43.996 still try and respond to every single DM and yeah, that's where you can find me. 00:36:43.996 --> 00:36:45.346 And that's what I would like you to meet me. 00:36:45.646 --> 00:36:51.149 Michele: Well, Arvid I will see you and everybody else around on Twitter. 00:36:51.239 --> 00:36:52.049 Thank you so much. 00:36:52.349 --> 00:36:52.979 Arvid: Absolutely. 00:36:52.979 --> 00:36:53.459 Thanks so much. 00:36:53.459 --> 00:36:53.939 for having me.