WEBVTT NOTE This file was generated by Descript 00:00:05.588 --> 00:00:07.238 CJ: Welcome to build and learn. 00:00:07.238 --> 00:00:08.218 My name is CJ. 00:00:08.328 --> 00:00:09.148 Colin: And I'm Colin. 00:00:09.203 --> 00:00:12.018 And today we're gonna be talking about all the different ways that 00:00:12.018 --> 00:00:15.628 one can get into programming in 2022. 00:00:15.628 --> 00:00:19.918 CJ: There's so many different paths now, maybe 20 years ago you had to go and get 00:00:19.918 --> 00:00:24.208 a computer science degree or get a degree where you were, you know, learning how to 00:00:24.358 --> 00:00:28.258 program or learning how to code in order to become a paid professional programmer. 00:00:28.258 --> 00:00:28.528 But. 00:00:28.903 --> 00:00:31.633 Today, there's just so many alternatives. 00:00:31.633 --> 00:00:36.013 And so in 2022, we wanted to just run through our experiences and our 00:00:36.013 --> 00:00:41.263 background, getting into software development and also kind of sharing 00:00:41.517 --> 00:00:44.187 different ways that we've seen other people or our colleagues or 00:00:44.192 --> 00:00:47.607 our friends get into tech that are not necessarily that traditional 00:00:47.607 --> 00:00:48.817 computer science background. 00:00:49.357 --> 00:00:49.477 Colin: Yeah. 00:00:49.477 --> 00:00:52.957 And I think this topic kind of came up because when looking at our 00:00:52.962 --> 00:00:54.097 backgrounds, they are definitely. 00:00:54.827 --> 00:00:58.107 That traditional, what everyone thinks or used to think, what 00:00:58.107 --> 00:00:59.787 it takes to become a programmer. 00:01:00.087 --> 00:01:03.787 I have a marketing degree, we kind of talked about our winding path into tech. 00:01:03.787 --> 00:01:07.747 In the first episode, we won't do a full recap of all the MySpace days and things, 00:01:07.747 --> 00:01:12.057 but, I think it'll be good to just look at why are we still clinging or who is still 00:01:12.057 --> 00:01:14.337 even clinging to that traditional path? 00:01:14.737 --> 00:01:18.667 CJ: If you are thinking about getting into programming, if you're dabbling 00:01:18.667 --> 00:01:23.227 or dipping your toe into it, or if you just see like, Hey, my friends that are 00:01:23.227 --> 00:01:27.967 programmers have pretty nice lives and jobs and stuff, and that's something that 00:01:27.972 --> 00:01:32.857 I would like to do, or I'm interested in exploring as something that I might do, 00:01:33.097 --> 00:01:36.517 then this should be a good episode for you to help like evaluate some different 00:01:36.517 --> 00:01:39.877 options and different paths that you might take as you're considering getting. 00:01:40.857 --> 00:01:42.447 Colin: Definitely before we do that. 00:01:42.477 --> 00:01:48.177 You did a Twitter space this morning about remote work gear, um, with Chris. 00:01:48.237 --> 00:01:50.397 And we definitely gotta talk about these cords. 00:01:50.402 --> 00:01:54.147 So what are all the things that are in front of you right now 00:01:54.387 --> 00:01:55.917 that we don't see on video? 00:01:56.147 --> 00:01:57.372 CJ: I posted a picture on Twitter. 00:01:57.402 --> 00:01:58.152 I might take it down. 00:01:58.152 --> 00:02:00.762 I, I didn't actually like look and double check and make sure it's like, 00:02:01.002 --> 00:02:04.512 safe to share, like doesn't have addresses on things on my desk, whatever, 00:02:04.697 --> 00:02:07.522 Colin: it's got your passwords on the post-it note on your desk and 00:02:07.802 --> 00:02:10.922 CJ: My setup on my desk is an El Gato key light. 00:02:11.402 --> 00:02:18.262 I have an a6400 camera that, um, is this like 4k mirrorless DSLR? 00:02:18.415 --> 00:02:19.195 Two laptops. 00:02:19.592 --> 00:02:20.582 External monitor. 00:02:20.582 --> 00:02:23.762 I have a microphone that plugs into a focus, right. 00:02:23.762 --> 00:02:25.892 That plugs into the cloud lifter. 00:02:26.232 --> 00:02:28.032 Plugs for charging phones. 00:02:28.032 --> 00:02:31.902 I have plugs for the, you know, the keyboard and whatever. 00:02:31.902 --> 00:02:33.372 Thankfully I have a wireless mouse. 00:02:34.092 --> 00:02:34.512 I've got the. 00:02:35.502 --> 00:02:36.222 Colin: and save one. 00:02:36.462 --> 00:02:40.062 CJ: Yeah, I'm a huge fan of the magic mouse, but, Colin I gotta tell you 00:02:40.062 --> 00:02:43.152 when I moved in, I had a broken ankle. 00:02:43.182 --> 00:02:47.742 And so when I first got in, honestly, like setting up my desk with a 00:02:47.742 --> 00:02:50.937 broken ankle, Was a huge pain. 00:02:50.937 --> 00:02:54.177 It was like a giant project for me to like hobble around. 00:02:54.177 --> 00:02:55.317 I'm on crutches. 00:02:55.707 --> 00:02:59.787 I'm on like, whatever pharmaceuticals, you know, like just trying 00:02:59.787 --> 00:03:01.047 to like assemble everything. 00:03:01.377 --> 00:03:02.757 And so I got it set up. 00:03:02.762 --> 00:03:08.577 I got it working and I've been working for the last six months at this desk and 00:03:08.577 --> 00:03:12.027 I've just never taken the time to like go and hook up all of my cords and like 00:03:12.087 --> 00:03:13.647 get the cord management under control. 00:03:13.887 --> 00:03:16.047 But I'm like super curious to hear your. 00:03:16.452 --> 00:03:20.232 Recommendations for cord management, as someone who runs a collective, 00:03:20.682 --> 00:03:25.662 a coworking space that has tons and tons of desks and cords and 00:03:25.662 --> 00:03:28.242 appliances and all sorts of stuff. 00:03:28.292 --> 00:03:30.692 I'm sure that you've got a lot more practice than others 00:03:30.752 --> 00:03:32.012 at managing these cords. 00:03:32.012 --> 00:03:33.182 So people don't trip on them. 00:03:33.182 --> 00:03:35.702 And so they're not hanging out everywhere, so yeah. 00:03:35.732 --> 00:03:37.862 Let's please help me, please. 00:03:37.862 --> 00:03:38.102 Help me. 00:03:38.492 --> 00:03:41.642 Colin: Yeah, we'll put some things in the show notes, but the, uh, there's 00:03:41.642 --> 00:03:44.972 definitely some for, for anyone who ends up seeing whatever this video 00:03:44.977 --> 00:03:49.922 is at recording, there's some things like braided, uh, cable managers. 00:03:49.982 --> 00:03:52.592 I'm a big fan of like tiny little sticky. 00:03:53.072 --> 00:03:53.402 Hooks. 00:03:53.402 --> 00:03:57.992 The underneath of my desk has there's, there's an absolute mess underneath there. 00:03:58.022 --> 00:04:01.772 They're all pretty like wired through different tracks and, and just 00:04:01.772 --> 00:04:06.232 off the desk, for me, it's like a visual clutter is mental clutter. 00:04:06.332 --> 00:04:09.402 We'll give you the disability pass for having a broken 00:04:09.402 --> 00:04:10.602 ankle when you first set up. 00:04:10.602 --> 00:04:14.682 I also just like, I see a lot of desk setups on, on Instagram and other places. 00:04:14.724 --> 00:04:18.469 I'm not aspiring to have a desk that's like prettier than, than it is useful, but 00:04:18.889 --> 00:04:21.019 it's nice to have things out of the way. 00:04:21.019 --> 00:04:24.409 And there's a lot of good cable managers for the coworking space. 00:04:24.649 --> 00:04:28.039 The thing that I do hate, it's like, I love like having, we have some 00:04:28.039 --> 00:04:31.489 pretty nice furniture, but then it's like, where do you put the cords? 00:04:32.004 --> 00:04:35.004 Because everyone needs to plug in their laptops and you can't have like 00:04:35.064 --> 00:04:40.014 extension cords that are ugly and you'd be surprised, but you can spend quite a 00:04:40.019 --> 00:04:42.114 bit of money on pretty extension cords. 00:04:42.194 --> 00:04:45.554 There's a company called Conway electric that makes the, like the most 00:04:45.554 --> 00:04:48.254 prettiest like search protects scene. 00:04:48.639 --> 00:04:49.749 They're expensive. 00:04:49.779 --> 00:04:51.939 And then they're like, we're only gonna give you two outlets 00:04:51.939 --> 00:04:53.799 on this expensive thing too. 00:04:54.309 --> 00:04:59.139 So if you wanna go down that rabbit hole, the whole interior design and, and things. 00:04:59.139 --> 00:04:59.799 It's interesting. 00:05:00.039 --> 00:05:03.429 It's also interesting just because of so many people not going back 00:05:03.429 --> 00:05:07.249 to offices, I think it's a little overblown that we're never going back. 00:05:07.699 --> 00:05:10.309 It's just that a lot of companies like, you know, at orbit were 00:05:10.309 --> 00:05:15.529 fully remote, but it's hard to replace that going into an office. 00:05:15.529 --> 00:05:16.579 And when you do. 00:05:17.539 --> 00:05:22.189 You wanna have power, good lighting, good desk, you know, sit, stand 00:05:22.194 --> 00:05:23.509 desks, whatever that looks like. 00:05:23.509 --> 00:05:25.849 So, uh, yeah, we can put some stuff in the show notes. 00:05:25.854 --> 00:05:28.819 Maybe some, some good like desk setup, Instagrams too. 00:05:29.384 --> 00:05:29.864 CJ: Nice. 00:05:30.224 --> 00:05:30.674 Yeah, I got. 00:05:31.514 --> 00:05:36.314 Extension cord surge protector thing for our family, that it sits 00:05:36.314 --> 00:05:40.724 underneath the couch upstairs to help manage cords like in the living room. 00:05:40.724 --> 00:05:44.189 I just haven't, invested in something that like that from my desk, but it's 00:05:44.189 --> 00:05:49.079 really cool because it has, I wanna say it has 16 different outlets. 00:05:49.499 --> 00:05:53.969 That are, you know, your normal us style outlet that you can plug into, but it also 00:05:53.969 --> 00:05:56.849 has USB outlets, a bunch of USB outlets. 00:05:57.209 --> 00:06:00.959 So if you want to charge, you know, everyone right now in our household 00:06:00.959 --> 00:06:04.529 has like 10 devices that all need to be charged via USB, whether it's, 00:06:05.129 --> 00:06:08.219 you know, I don't even know there's a million, a million different 00:06:08.249 --> 00:06:11.169 iPads and, phones and tablets. 00:06:11.934 --> 00:06:15.857 Gosh, the kids have all of these remote control cars now and the remote control 00:06:15.857 --> 00:06:17.927 car batteries are all charged via USB. 00:06:17.957 --> 00:06:21.167 So having that block up there has been, has been really killer. 00:06:21.167 --> 00:06:23.567 So I don't know, I gotta get something like that set up for the office. 00:06:23.837 --> 00:06:24.437 Colin: Nice. 00:06:25.652 --> 00:06:25.952 CJ: yeah. 00:06:27.842 --> 00:06:28.682 Should we get into it? 00:06:28.682 --> 00:06:31.742 There's like several different paths that I think people could take. 00:06:31.742 --> 00:06:32.702 Maybe we can do some Trailhead. 00:06:33.587 --> 00:06:34.247 Colin: Let's do it. 00:06:35.327 --> 00:06:39.057 CJ: There's two, buckets or two categories. 00:06:39.627 --> 00:06:43.397 Of paths or ways that you can get into programming. 00:06:43.397 --> 00:06:48.257 And also just generally into tech, if you wanted to join like a, a tech company. 00:06:48.767 --> 00:06:53.687 And so I would say that one of them, I would call educational where you're 00:06:53.687 --> 00:06:57.947 going to go out and intentionally learn how to become a programmer. 00:06:58.487 --> 00:07:01.487 And another one is sort of this like side. 00:07:02.207 --> 00:07:08.747 Or backdoor entry into a role where maybe you're starting in a, a role at 00:07:08.747 --> 00:07:13.367 a company that has lots of programmers and software engineers and developers, 00:07:13.697 --> 00:07:17.847 but you are not necessarily, working as a programmer initially, but you're in 00:07:17.847 --> 00:07:22.617 some role that is slightly technical, that you can then pivot into a role 00:07:22.617 --> 00:07:23.697 where you're writing a lot of code. 00:07:24.997 --> 00:07:28.327 Colin: That technical support route tends to be a really popular one, 00:07:28.327 --> 00:07:33.407 even through boot camps, because to do support, you know, you're going to need 00:07:33.412 --> 00:07:38.777 to be technical and more, I would say in problem solving, I think less code, right? 00:07:38.777 --> 00:07:38.867 It's. 00:07:39.742 --> 00:07:41.722 This, person's reproducing this issue. 00:07:42.022 --> 00:07:45.352 And that's what we think about when we're coding is like, okay, 00:07:45.352 --> 00:07:47.002 how do I reproduce this myself? 00:07:47.482 --> 00:07:50.002 What do I need to go look at, check on. 00:07:50.452 --> 00:07:53.872 And you on working for that company will hopefully have access to the 00:07:53.872 --> 00:07:57.322 tools and, and the data that you need to go, like, diagnose that. 00:07:58.012 --> 00:08:02.512 and, we've known some people who have gone through that path of technical support. 00:08:02.572 --> 00:08:02.812 Okay. 00:08:02.812 --> 00:08:07.132 I learn a little bit of code, a little bit of APIs, maybe it's our internal tools. 00:08:07.432 --> 00:08:11.632 And then I get promoted to technical support manager or make a sideways 00:08:11.632 --> 00:08:16.912 move again into junior developer, level one level, two developer 00:08:17.202 --> 00:08:18.952 with mentors from the team. 00:08:18.982 --> 00:08:22.822 And, um, you know, it really kind of just shows that like you can apply yourself. 00:08:23.122 --> 00:08:24.442 To problem solving. 00:08:24.562 --> 00:08:27.562 And then what other language that, that takes place in 00:08:27.562 --> 00:08:29.002 doesn't really matter after that? 00:08:30.062 --> 00:08:30.692 CJ: Yeah, totally. 00:08:30.697 --> 00:08:33.217 Maybe we can start with that second bucket of like the side door, back 00:08:33.217 --> 00:08:37.417 door entryway, and that like product management comes to mind too. 00:08:37.447 --> 00:08:40.687 Like if you have an eye for design and you would. 00:08:41.107 --> 00:08:45.727 Really comfortable setting up Figma templates and talking to users and 00:08:45.727 --> 00:08:49.957 figuring out what they need, what they ultimately really, really, truly need 00:08:49.957 --> 00:08:53.797 from the product in order for it to, you know, function and be successful. 00:08:54.137 --> 00:08:56.657 That is a interesting way to get into, to tech. 00:08:56.657 --> 00:08:58.847 And I don't think that there are very many. 00:08:59.372 --> 00:09:01.772 Courses that you can take to become a product manager. 00:09:01.772 --> 00:09:04.562 Like, I don't actually know if there's a way that you can just go to 00:09:04.592 --> 00:09:08.342 university and get like a four year degree in, in product management. 00:09:08.342 --> 00:09:09.572 I don't know if that's a thing, do. 00:09:10.032 --> 00:09:13.362 Colin: I don't know, but there is a really cool kind of boot camp style. 00:09:13.362 --> 00:09:16.422 I think it might be at virtual is called product school. 00:09:16.802 --> 00:09:20.192 And like it is a direct path to becoming a product manager. 00:09:20.532 --> 00:09:21.612 They have a lot of free things. 00:09:21.612 --> 00:09:25.992 They have a community, they have, Twitter spaces and, and YouTubes, but then they 00:09:25.992 --> 00:09:29.892 have like what you would just think of as like the bootcamp model for product. 00:09:30.122 --> 00:09:34.442 Managers and you've got companies sponsoring it that want product managers. 00:09:34.922 --> 00:09:38.222 If there's also ways to get into this, without going down that traditional 00:09:38.222 --> 00:09:40.142 path, there's a book called the mom test. 00:09:40.562 --> 00:09:41.372 That's really good. 00:09:41.442 --> 00:09:43.542 Essentially, like when you think about like, when you make a thing 00:09:43.542 --> 00:09:46.787 and you show it to your mom, They're gonna be like, oh yeah, that's great. 00:09:46.877 --> 00:09:47.477 I love it. 00:09:47.537 --> 00:09:47.747 Right. 00:09:47.747 --> 00:09:51.737 It's sometimes you get that from customers where, regardless of what you make, 00:09:51.737 --> 00:09:55.367 they're gonna tell you that they like it when really it might not be that good. 00:09:55.817 --> 00:09:59.237 And so it's like how to get that critical feedback, cuz product management, 00:09:59.237 --> 00:10:01.157 isn't just like project management. 00:10:01.162 --> 00:10:04.697 It's taking customer feedback and turning it into product. 00:10:04.697 --> 00:10:08.567 So if, if you like talking to people and you wanna be in tech, 00:10:08.567 --> 00:10:10.037 like it's a really cool role. 00:10:10.712 --> 00:10:14.162 And kind of as like gonna side, like there was a, there was a funny like meme 00:10:14.162 --> 00:10:17.832 going around where if you can plan a vacation or a trip with more than six 00:10:17.832 --> 00:10:21.702 people, like you'd be a really good project manager or product manager. 00:10:22.992 --> 00:10:25.842 because it's like, okay, who's got a spreadsheet to go camping 00:10:25.842 --> 00:10:27.042 and where are we all gonna be? 00:10:27.042 --> 00:10:29.612 And how are we all gonna get there and, and make sure that everyone's 00:10:29.617 --> 00:10:31.952 still, you know, where they need to be when we, when the trip is. 00:10:32.572 --> 00:10:34.492 CJ: Yeah, that's a great analogy, right? 00:10:34.492 --> 00:10:38.812 It's wrangling, wrangling all the cats to make sure that something 00:10:38.842 --> 00:10:41.692 is built that's useful and is yeah. 00:10:41.752 --> 00:10:44.812 Empathetic towards what the users like ultimately need. 00:10:46.457 --> 00:10:50.327 I guess there's also sort of approaches you can take where 00:10:50.327 --> 00:10:51.737 you become a solution architect. 00:10:51.737 --> 00:10:56.547 That's teaching people, maybe even like pre-sales or post-sales teaching, 00:10:56.607 --> 00:11:00.837 you know, giant clients or these enterprise clients, how to integrate 00:11:01.167 --> 00:11:02.577 with some product or service. 00:11:02.582 --> 00:11:07.777 So I've seen this kind of, role for Salesforce or for, you 00:11:07.777 --> 00:11:09.157 know, different implementation. 00:11:09.204 --> 00:11:12.120 Specialists another route might be like marketing. 00:11:12.120 --> 00:11:16.260 If you get into marketing two developers and just kind of like building up your 00:11:16.260 --> 00:11:21.000 chops around all the, the no code tools that are available for really building 00:11:21.000 --> 00:11:23.220 out a growth in marketing engine. 00:11:23.590 --> 00:11:27.160 Understanding how Zappier works and how web hooks works is a great intro 00:11:27.160 --> 00:11:30.850 to like, okay, now I wanna write my own custom JavaScript function 00:11:30.850 --> 00:11:35.200 or something that handles this web hook integration some special way. 00:11:35.336 --> 00:11:39.798 Colin: Mm-hmm Yeah, I think that the whole glue and no code is a great way 00:11:39.798 --> 00:11:41.598 to start to think about the concepts. 00:11:41.938 --> 00:11:44.278 There's also like these types of product, school things. 00:11:44.278 --> 00:11:47.838 There's things like, hacker news, or I guess Y Combinator or startup 00:11:47.838 --> 00:11:50.508 school, all of that curriculum is free. 00:11:50.718 --> 00:11:53.478 If you're thinking about getting into tech, if you wanna go to apply to a 00:11:53.478 --> 00:11:55.818 startup, it helps to know these things. 00:11:55.818 --> 00:11:57.918 Like it doesn't mean that you need to go out and start a company. 00:11:58.258 --> 00:12:01.528 Especially if you're trying to get into tech, probably not a great idea to start 00:12:01.528 --> 00:12:04.768 a company, but if you have no other options, like starting a company might 00:12:04.768 --> 00:12:06.508 be the fastest way to getting into tech. 00:12:06.888 --> 00:12:10.638 As long as you can either hire or learn to code. 00:12:10.933 --> 00:12:15.523 On the go I guess that also ignores, like having a safety net, financial safety net 00:12:15.523 --> 00:12:17.773 to allow you to that time to build that. 00:12:18.133 --> 00:12:18.453 I would. 00:12:18.575 --> 00:12:21.785 Definitely recommend learning on someone else's dollar though. 00:12:21.785 --> 00:12:27.395 So getting into a company that is hiring a junior, or again, like we talked about 00:12:27.575 --> 00:12:30.935 going this technical support route, building up your chops, whether it's 00:12:30.935 --> 00:12:34.745 on the job or not, you know, at orbit, some of our engineering managers really. 00:12:35.050 --> 00:12:37.840 Focus on, like, if you wanna learn a thing, don't try to learn 00:12:37.840 --> 00:12:38.950 it on the night and weekend. 00:12:39.430 --> 00:12:41.920 You know, you're probably gonna have to practice it on the nights and weekends, 00:12:41.920 --> 00:12:46.390 but like take, take an hour in the morning and start your day reading 00:12:46.420 --> 00:12:48.250 or doing the tutorials that you need. 00:12:48.610 --> 00:12:52.330 If it's going to help you, you know, progress in your skills 00:12:52.630 --> 00:12:53.370 because that's gonna benefit. 00:12:54.150 --> 00:12:56.940 You know us as a company too, if it's something that we need. 00:12:57.410 --> 00:13:00.470 But it helps to just kind of immerse yourself in the stuff. 00:13:00.520 --> 00:13:03.640 There is an endless amount of YouTube content out there. 00:13:03.640 --> 00:13:05.410 There's an endless amount of Twitch streams. 00:13:05.750 --> 00:13:07.970 There's an amazing, I think, I think it's still free. 00:13:07.970 --> 00:13:10.280 Um, mastermind IO on Twitch. 00:13:10.670 --> 00:13:11.570 He runs an entire boot. 00:13:12.245 --> 00:13:12.965 On Twitch. 00:13:13.025 --> 00:13:13.715 It's amazing. 00:13:13.745 --> 00:13:17.495 I think it might also be on YouTube and it's, it is live like he does 00:13:17.495 --> 00:13:21.815 live lectures on Twitch and then there's assignments and projects. 00:13:21.815 --> 00:13:24.725 And so there's so many different ways to get into this. 00:13:24.725 --> 00:13:27.845 And I know we're gonna, this is leaning now more into the educational paths, 00:13:27.845 --> 00:13:31.235 but you know, a bootcamp doesn't mean that you have to drop a bunch of money. 00:13:31.235 --> 00:13:35.315 It might look like a Twitch bootcamp or a YouTube bootcamp or free 00:13:35.315 --> 00:13:37.335 code camp, as options for that. 00:13:38.190 --> 00:13:38.700 CJ: Totally. 00:13:38.910 --> 00:13:41.100 When we say bootcamp, bootcamp, if you're not. 00:13:41.280 --> 00:13:41.520 Here. 00:13:41.520 --> 00:13:45.670 And you're just kind of curious about learning how to program, boot camp, I 00:13:45.670 --> 00:13:50.495 guess, is a term that started becoming more popular, maybe 20 10, 20 11, 20 00:13:50.495 --> 00:13:57.540 12 ish, where there was, a type of, job training school called dev bootcamp. 00:13:58.080 --> 00:13:59.130 And this was. 00:14:00.480 --> 00:14:04.890 The model was that you can go to this bootcamp, you pay like $12,000 or 00:14:04.890 --> 00:14:10.200 something, and you're there for nine weeks and you learn how to become a 00:14:10.205 --> 00:14:15.150 web developer and you learn a bunch of basics for how you can build websites. 00:14:15.660 --> 00:14:18.930 And from dev bootcamp, it's now spun out and there are 00:14:19.260 --> 00:14:21.090 thousands of different, yeah. 00:14:21.190 --> 00:14:23.660 There's a whole bunch of different payment models, but, some of 00:14:23.660 --> 00:14:27.590 them are you pay your tuition is based on how much money you make. 00:14:27.590 --> 00:14:31.550 after you graduate from the bootcamp, others are fixed fee there's, a bunch 00:14:31.550 --> 00:14:33.140 that are free, like free code camp. 00:14:33.170 --> 00:14:36.090 But yeah, when we're talking about boot camp here, we're talking about in. 00:14:36.575 --> 00:14:40.055 Usually we're talking about some sort of immersive program where 00:14:40.055 --> 00:14:42.095 there is curriculum outlined for you. 00:14:42.455 --> 00:14:45.545 And there are often cohorts of students that you will go through 00:14:45.545 --> 00:14:49.715 the bootcamp with, that you can lean on and work with and learn from. 00:14:50.225 --> 00:14:53.075 And so that's when, yeah, when we're talking about bootcamp, that 00:14:53.075 --> 00:14:57.825 is one of, I think the educational paths towards becoming a programmer. 00:14:57.830 --> 00:14:58.955 And it's a very popular one, right? 00:15:00.120 --> 00:15:04.050 Colin: I love that free code camp and some of these Twitch models and things exist. 00:15:04.080 --> 00:15:08.370 the Twitch one probably is, has more accountability cuz you are showing up 00:15:08.375 --> 00:15:13.230 at a certain time to watch a lecture, interact, ask questions, things like that. 00:15:13.650 --> 00:15:15.540 Free code camp is very unassisted. 00:15:15.540 --> 00:15:19.280 So it, it's also important to kind of think about how you learn a lot. 00:15:19.800 --> 00:15:23.250 Learning and getting into tech is learning how to learn and 00:15:23.520 --> 00:15:24.990 learning how you learn as well. 00:15:24.990 --> 00:15:25.170 Right? 00:15:25.170 --> 00:15:26.220 Some people are visual learners. 00:15:26.220 --> 00:15:30.600 Some people are going to need to have accountability, buddy that they're 00:15:30.600 --> 00:15:33.570 learning with or some class to show up to. 00:15:33.570 --> 00:15:37.140 And so with the pandemic, a lot of these boot camps went full remote, 00:15:37.170 --> 00:15:41.520 which is also great if you're not in, you know, a coastal city where most 00:15:41.520 --> 00:15:45.090 of these boot camps historically have been, there are now boot camps in every 00:15:45.090 --> 00:15:46.920 state and every city for the most part. 00:15:47.535 --> 00:15:51.770 If you are gonna look at a bootcamp, Definitely look at reviews, check there's 00:15:51.775 --> 00:15:55.520 like now sites that review them because there are some shady boot camps out there. 00:15:55.920 --> 00:15:59.620 I think the big thing here is it's like they came into being, because the 00:15:59.650 --> 00:16:03.130 skills that you learn in a computer science degree, you might go through 00:16:03.160 --> 00:16:05.290 four years of traditional education. 00:16:05.990 --> 00:16:10.390 You're not necessarily set up to be productive as a software 00:16:10.390 --> 00:16:11.890 developer when you graduate. 00:16:12.390 --> 00:16:14.370 It really depends on the school. 00:16:14.695 --> 00:16:17.995 The curriculum, all of that, I think schools are just a little bit 00:16:17.995 --> 00:16:21.505 slower to change and they're not gonna be necessarily teaching you 00:16:21.505 --> 00:16:23.425 react and, and things like that. 00:16:23.475 --> 00:16:26.325 So it's important to think about that because the cost for a four 00:16:26.325 --> 00:16:30.135 year is going to be a lot more in some cases than a bootcamp, the 00:16:30.135 --> 00:16:32.385 boot camps will take less time. 00:16:32.745 --> 00:16:36.075 However, you also don't have a lot of experience to put on a 00:16:36.075 --> 00:16:38.085 resume or things like that either. 00:16:38.135 --> 00:16:42.875 Two things for you would be, if you had to do it all over today, do you 00:16:42.875 --> 00:16:46.355 think you would get a CS degree or do you think you would do a bootcamp, 00:16:46.815 --> 00:16:48.165 or a flavor of both of those. 00:16:49.530 --> 00:16:54.840 CJ: Reflecting back on my experience, I think I've, I got 00:16:54.840 --> 00:16:56.400 different things from each of them. 00:16:56.760 --> 00:17:01.470 So from the bootcamp, there were a ton of very applicable skills for 00:17:01.470 --> 00:17:04.070 being a web developer, in particular. 00:17:04.120 --> 00:17:04.660 If you. 00:17:05.695 --> 00:17:10.015 Want to become a web developer, get a job and start making that 00:17:10.015 --> 00:17:12.505 sweet, sweet web developer money. 00:17:12.565 --> 00:17:17.605 Then I would say go the bootcamp route the four year computer science degree. 00:17:17.605 --> 00:17:22.765 I'm super torn because I, while I don't think I learned a ton of 00:17:22.770 --> 00:17:26.995 stuff in the CS degree that was directly applicable to my day to day. 00:17:27.715 --> 00:17:33.205 I think there is a chance that getting a four year degree can improve your 00:17:33.205 --> 00:17:35.175 career in a few different ways. 00:17:35.180 --> 00:17:40.185 Like, number one, if you are really involved socially in college, you can 00:17:40.185 --> 00:17:44.505 build up a network of people that you can lean on for the rest of your career. 00:17:44.565 --> 00:17:46.875 And, you know, that'll be, that'll be invaluable. 00:17:47.025 --> 00:17:50.835 Number two, it's a chance for you to sort of take things slowly. 00:17:50.895 --> 00:17:52.485 And so if you have this four year. 00:17:53.265 --> 00:17:58.905 You often might be offered courses that let you dive deep into topics or 00:17:58.905 --> 00:18:03.075 concepts that you wouldn't otherwise be exposed to for instance, like compiler 00:18:03.075 --> 00:18:09.045 design or, you know, computer vision or these weird things that are pretty fun. 00:18:09.945 --> 00:18:13.165 I think if I was gonna do it again, what I would recommend. 00:18:14.385 --> 00:18:21.315 Maybe try and go get several internships or take a year off between high school 00:18:21.315 --> 00:18:26.595 and college and go, try to build a bunch of stuff and then go and get a CS degree. 00:18:26.595 --> 00:18:30.585 Once you realize like the benefit of understanding data structures 00:18:30.585 --> 00:18:35.325 and algorithms, or you understand why it might be nice to know how. 00:18:36.015 --> 00:18:40.335 Yeah, how compilers work, because I think when you go, when you jump straight 00:18:40.335 --> 00:18:42.735 from high school, right into college, you just do your four year degree. 00:18:42.735 --> 00:18:47.895 It's an extension of high school and you don't necessarily value the content 00:18:47.900 --> 00:18:51.405 that you're going through as much as you would, if you knew it later. 00:18:51.855 --> 00:18:56.145 I honestly have joked often about the fact that I think it would be super fun 00:18:56.145 --> 00:18:59.835 to go back now and redo the CS degree 00:19:00.075 --> 00:19:00.975 Colin: been thinking of that 00:19:01.410 --> 00:19:02.040 CJ: Exactly. 00:19:02.040 --> 00:19:05.190 Colin: Think what you, what you said about valuing it, you know, the 00:19:05.190 --> 00:19:09.210 other word would be like, I, I didn't appreciate it when I was in, in college. 00:19:09.210 --> 00:19:09.480 Right. 00:19:09.480 --> 00:19:14.190 Like at the same time, I think back would, I wanna sit through that again 00:19:14.790 --> 00:19:17.210 and that's where it's, I'm not sure. 00:19:17.215 --> 00:19:17.420 Right. 00:19:17.420 --> 00:19:19.640 And cuz like for me, I don't have a CS degree. 00:19:19.980 --> 00:19:24.300 There are things that I wish that I had sat through in those classes and I've 00:19:24.300 --> 00:19:28.355 even looked at like, The open courseware for MIT and things like that to just 00:19:28.355 --> 00:19:32.615 see, like maybe I just do the coursework, but not sit through all the stuff that 00:19:32.615 --> 00:19:33.995 a university makes you go through. 00:19:34.395 --> 00:19:36.730 What I've always thought would be interesting is thinking of 00:19:36.730 --> 00:19:40.480 boot camps as almost like a finishing school after CS, right. 00:19:40.480 --> 00:19:40.780 That. 00:19:41.615 --> 00:19:44.995 CS is gonna teach you a lot of the fundamentals, the data structures, 00:19:44.995 --> 00:19:48.325 the stuff that, you know, computer vision and compilers is never gonna 00:19:48.325 --> 00:19:50.145 come up in web development bootcamp. 00:19:50.175 --> 00:19:50.415 Right? 00:19:50.415 --> 00:19:51.495 It's there's not enough time. 00:19:51.705 --> 00:19:53.205 You're not gonna use it in your day to day. 00:19:53.505 --> 00:19:55.815 But when you see some of the really interesting talks that 00:19:55.815 --> 00:19:56.985 like, I think there was like the. 00:19:57.270 --> 00:20:01.950 There was a really good Ruby talk at the RailsConf that's like, you need to be a 00:20:01.950 --> 00:20:03.750 computer scientist to figure this out. 00:20:03.750 --> 00:20:06.000 I don't think he had a CS degree necessarily. 00:20:06.000 --> 00:20:09.990 He just learned it as he went, but having that appreciation and 00:20:09.990 --> 00:20:11.330 learning, just like a bootcamp. 00:20:11.330 --> 00:20:14.240 It also depends on what school you are going to, what program 00:20:14.245 --> 00:20:15.170 and what they're teaching. 00:20:15.430 --> 00:20:17.450 There's a really cool program at schools. 00:20:17.450 --> 00:20:19.580 Now that's called human computer interaction. 00:20:19.610 --> 00:20:21.920 So you can get a degree in that instead. 00:20:21.925 --> 00:20:23.780 And so that one might even set you up. 00:20:23.780 --> 00:20:25.040 If you wanna be a designer. 00:20:25.420 --> 00:20:27.490 Or a product manager, right. 00:20:27.490 --> 00:20:31.390 Where it's not only the coding of it, but it's how do humans interact with 00:20:31.390 --> 00:20:33.340 technology and how do we think about that? 00:20:33.880 --> 00:20:36.340 I think the challenge, I don't blame universities for this is 00:20:36.345 --> 00:20:40.120 that the surface area for what to there is to learn is so large. 00:20:40.520 --> 00:20:44.210 The thing that I see most with computer science grads is that they have never 00:20:44.210 --> 00:20:46.100 worked with someone on a project before. 00:20:46.520 --> 00:20:50.240 And I think this is like, you know, the idea that schools are afraid, 00:20:50.240 --> 00:20:54.340 people are gonna not do an assignment themselves and not be able to code 00:20:54.340 --> 00:20:57.070 by themselves, but like you don't build everything by yourself. 00:20:57.610 --> 00:21:02.080 And so knowing how to collaborate on GitHub and use git, or 00:21:02.080 --> 00:21:03.070 any of those kinds of things. 00:21:03.715 --> 00:21:05.425 That's just one piece of the puzzle. 00:21:05.425 --> 00:21:08.875 And you know, that finishing school idea would be like, how do we help you? 00:21:08.875 --> 00:21:11.695 Like drop you into a group project, learn how to collaborate. 00:21:12.535 --> 00:21:14.155 You're not always gonna be right. 00:21:14.395 --> 00:21:15.745 You know, stuff like that. 00:21:16.855 --> 00:21:17.935 CJ: You mentioned it's really important. 00:21:17.935 --> 00:21:23.335 Which school you pick for your bootcamp, but also for a four year degree, two 00:21:23.335 --> 00:21:26.305 year degree, whatever educational program you're gonna go through. 00:21:26.695 --> 00:21:28.945 Definitely do your research beforehand. 00:21:29.275 --> 00:21:33.385 There are some computer science programs that have produced engineers 00:21:33.385 --> 00:21:36.775 that I have worked with that have been far in a way better than others. 00:21:37.195 --> 00:21:41.395 And in particular, um, the Oregon Institute of technology, O I T. 00:21:41.935 --> 00:21:44.005 Has a stellar program. 00:21:44.005 --> 00:21:47.425 I don't know, like a lot of details about the curriculum, but the folks that 00:21:47.425 --> 00:21:52.165 I've worked with that have come out of OITs program have been just phenomenal. 00:21:52.525 --> 00:21:56.725 And so when we're talking at like looking at comparing, maybe someone who 00:21:56.725 --> 00:22:00.685 graduated with the CS degree from UNR versus O I T versus Carnegie Mellon or 00:22:00.685 --> 00:22:04.285 MIT or something like that, you're gonna have very, very different experiences. 00:22:04.655 --> 00:22:06.875 Look at all of the requirements for that four year. 00:22:07.685 --> 00:22:09.875 That are not actually about programming. 00:22:09.905 --> 00:22:12.875 What is all the cruft that you have to get through just to get the degree? 00:22:12.875 --> 00:22:16.265 Like, you're gonna have to go learn a bunch of maybe, I don't know, whatever, 00:22:16.265 --> 00:22:20.405 like, yeah, I know I don't wanna bag on humanities, but I think that's another 00:22:20.410 --> 00:22:22.775 thing that you underappreciate while you're in college and you're just like, 00:22:22.835 --> 00:22:26.075 oh gosh, I just wanna get through this music appreciation class or whatever. 00:22:26.495 --> 00:22:29.615 But like now I would, I that's another category of things I would love to 00:22:29.615 --> 00:22:33.785 go redo is like, I wanna retake music appreciation and core humanities and 00:22:33.790 --> 00:22:35.375 all this stuff now that I kind of have. 00:22:36.020 --> 00:22:40.310 Time to do it slowly and appreciate it and not just rushing through tests and mold. 00:22:40.950 --> 00:22:42.480 Colin: I don't know if you've encountered this. 00:22:42.480 --> 00:22:47.670 There are a shocking number of really good developers that I have interacted with. 00:22:48.480 --> 00:22:52.800 The last decade that are all from CU Boulder, the school of mines 00:22:52.800 --> 00:22:57.150 specifically, like, and which was really interesting to me because at Nevada, 00:22:57.450 --> 00:23:01.500 at UNR here, we have a strong school of mines as well, but I don't know 00:23:01.740 --> 00:23:03.690 that they focus very heavily on tech. 00:23:03.695 --> 00:23:07.020 Like I was like, what is it about mining that is producing? 00:23:07.920 --> 00:23:08.780 Software developers. 00:23:08.860 --> 00:23:12.300 and it was really interesting, there's a, startup accelerator called Techstar. 00:23:12.305 --> 00:23:13.350 That's based outta Boulder. 00:23:13.830 --> 00:23:16.920 They just farm so many developers out of there. 00:23:16.925 --> 00:23:19.290 And it's amazing, like it's in their backyard and maybe 00:23:19.530 --> 00:23:20.640 it's a chicken and egg thing. 00:23:20.640 --> 00:23:22.980 Like, I don't know which one was there first. 00:23:23.010 --> 00:23:23.280 Right? 00:23:23.280 --> 00:23:26.070 Is it, was it because there are startups hiring people that. 00:23:26.575 --> 00:23:30.325 The curriculum and the students just, you know, learned what they needed to learn 00:23:30.325 --> 00:23:34.795 or, you know, are there a lot of startups happening because the school is there 00:23:34.795 --> 00:23:36.535 and they're producing great developers. 00:23:36.535 --> 00:23:41.325 We don't, we don't really know, but, schools like OIT Boulder, most 00:23:41.325 --> 00:23:44.745 schools, you know, it's gonna be hard to find like, is it a good program? 00:23:44.745 --> 00:23:48.285 It's more like, is this a muscle of the school or is it just like, 00:23:48.285 --> 00:23:51.565 they tacked it on to say that they have it more, more than. 00:23:52.765 --> 00:23:55.585 CJ: Yeah, it'd be interesting too, to have like talk to one of your friends 00:23:55.585 --> 00:24:01.165 or find someone who is in tech, who is a like professional software engineer 00:24:01.165 --> 00:24:05.605 and show them the curriculum and ask like, is this curriculum actually gonna 00:24:05.605 --> 00:24:08.155 help me when I get a job in the future? 00:24:08.545 --> 00:24:12.715 And if you're learning, like, I don't know the theory of finite, 00:24:12.715 --> 00:24:15.265 autonom like, probably not. 00:24:15.840 --> 00:24:19.050 Colin: Or, or even asking them like, what do I need to add to 00:24:19.050 --> 00:24:21.060 this in my extracurriculars, right. 00:24:21.065 --> 00:24:22.620 To be productive. 00:24:22.625 --> 00:24:22.800 Right? 00:24:22.800 --> 00:24:25.170 Like I'm gonna learn these things through my school. 00:24:25.560 --> 00:24:26.040 Awesome. 00:24:26.045 --> 00:24:30.330 Because I do think like there's a little bit of a, having a degree is going to 00:24:30.330 --> 00:24:32.130 get you through a lot of interviews. 00:24:32.610 --> 00:24:33.570 That might not. 00:24:33.570 --> 00:24:35.130 And it's an unfortunate reality. 00:24:35.310 --> 00:24:37.710 I think a lot of people are getting hired without degrees. 00:24:37.710 --> 00:24:39.390 Now that's becoming less of a thing. 00:24:39.390 --> 00:24:44.330 I'm gonna waive the flag for the fact that universities should not cost what it does. 00:24:44.390 --> 00:24:46.700 It should not be putting people into extreme debt. 00:24:47.070 --> 00:24:51.660 If you can do a in-state school, that's cheaper and it has a decent 00:24:51.660 --> 00:24:53.760 program and you can augment it with. 00:24:54.390 --> 00:24:57.540 GitHub university classes and, and learning Stripe through 00:24:57.540 --> 00:24:58.440 the Stripe docs, right? 00:24:58.440 --> 00:24:59.850 Whatever that is like, do it. 00:25:00.230 --> 00:25:04.580 I would not put yourself into extreme debt because while you will probably be able 00:25:04.580 --> 00:25:07.880 to make a good income afterwards, right. 00:25:08.180 --> 00:25:10.940 You still gotta now dig yourself out of that hole. 00:25:11.160 --> 00:25:14.850 When you could get to the same place without putting yourself in that hole. 00:25:14.900 --> 00:25:17.090 And that's a really understated thing. 00:25:17.090 --> 00:25:18.980 You see the same with doctors and lawyers, right? 00:25:18.980 --> 00:25:20.870 It's like, we're gonna go into a lot of debt and we're gonna 00:25:20.870 --> 00:25:22.910 rationalize it because we're gonna make a lot of money on the other 00:25:22.910 --> 00:25:25.460 side, but it will take a long time. 00:25:25.795 --> 00:25:27.655 And it does weigh on you. 00:25:27.655 --> 00:25:31.255 And, you know, we both talk about kind of personal finance stuff 00:25:31.255 --> 00:25:35.015 a lot and getting out of debt, especially for school my degree does 00:25:35.015 --> 00:25:36.635 honestly does not come up a lot. 00:25:36.665 --> 00:25:40.905 And so I'm glad that I, it didn't take me very long to pay off, the school. 00:25:40.905 --> 00:25:43.935 Cause I think if I was still paying it off, I would feel a little bit differently 00:25:43.935 --> 00:25:45.545 about the whole system right now. 00:25:45.885 --> 00:25:46.200 CJ: mm. 00:25:47.220 --> 00:25:47.610 Totally. 00:25:47.610 --> 00:25:47.850 Yeah. 00:25:47.850 --> 00:25:50.460 In terms of extracurriculars too, those are all great points. 00:25:50.460 --> 00:25:55.590 I think another thing that I did not do, but that I would recommend if 00:25:55.590 --> 00:25:59.340 you are doing one of these four year programs is to get summer internships, 00:25:59.820 --> 00:26:01.380 go out and get summer internships. 00:26:01.380 --> 00:26:04.170 Every single giant tech company has them. 00:26:04.460 --> 00:26:07.760 They start usually sourcing for them in the fall. 00:26:07.760 --> 00:26:09.200 And then you start in the spring. 00:26:10.085 --> 00:26:11.285 I know that Stripe does this. 00:26:11.285 --> 00:26:12.575 I know that Google does it. 00:26:12.695 --> 00:26:15.185 You know, all of the, all the big companies are gonna have some 00:26:15.185 --> 00:26:16.955 sort of summer internship program. 00:26:16.955 --> 00:26:22.055 You'll come in, do like nine weeks of usually it's highly paid work. 00:26:22.205 --> 00:26:26.945 Sometimes it's not paid, but typically it is highly paid and you'll do a project. 00:26:27.005 --> 00:26:27.995 You'll ship a project. 00:26:27.995 --> 00:26:29.405 You'll learn how to work with other people. 00:26:29.915 --> 00:26:33.875 Depending on the size of the company and what team you get placed on. 00:26:33.875 --> 00:26:36.335 Sometimes you might get garbage projects, but other times you might 00:26:36.335 --> 00:26:39.515 get really big, meaty, impactful things that you can work on. 00:26:39.915 --> 00:26:41.990 That's another awesome bullet for your resume. 00:26:42.260 --> 00:26:45.470 If you can say, oh yeah, you know, this summer I worked at, 00:26:46.050 --> 00:26:48.930 Netflix in that summer, I worked at Stripe and this other summer I 00:26:48.930 --> 00:26:51.300 worked at Google or whatever, like 00:26:51.705 --> 00:26:54.525 Colin: You can just start collecting all those Fang, those 00:26:54.810 --> 00:26:54.900 CJ: up 00:26:54.975 --> 00:26:55.305 Colin: jabs. 00:26:56.160 --> 00:26:57.210 CJ: F badges or whatever. 00:26:57.260 --> 00:27:00.470 The other thing I wanted to mention too, was that there are boot 00:27:00.470 --> 00:27:05.480 camps that, Especially set up to serve underrepresented groups. 00:27:05.480 --> 00:27:11.270 So here in the Boston area, there is a bootcamp called resilient coders. 00:27:11.650 --> 00:27:15.370 I've worked close with Nick de Jesus, and I know that is a, an awesome 00:27:15.370 --> 00:27:19.450 bootcamp for black and brown folks that are wanting to get into tech. 00:27:19.510 --> 00:27:21.820 There's also, she codes that I owe. 00:27:22.820 --> 00:27:27.680 Lots of opportunities to get into boot camps that are, set up for under 00:27:28.010 --> 00:27:33.110 represented folks that, and if you're, if you identify as someone that fits into 00:27:33.110 --> 00:27:38.350 one of those groups too, there's A lot of opportunity to enter a pipeline through 00:27:38.350 --> 00:27:43.300 a bootcamp where you'll go through the bootcamp, learn some set stuff, and then 00:27:43.360 --> 00:27:47.430 be, set up really well to get into the job market through things like the black 00:27:47.435 --> 00:27:52.920 tech pipeline or similar, uh, programs I know in the Ruby community, there's this w 00:27:52.920 --> 00:27:55.260 NMB dot RB for women and non-binary Ruby. 00:27:56.040 --> 00:27:59.750 That's another like really great organization that helps folks find roles. 00:27:59.945 --> 00:28:03.185 There's boot camps that are, specialized for folks that have 00:28:03.185 --> 00:28:04.865 been previously incarcerated. 00:28:04.870 --> 00:28:07.385 So there, there's kind of like a lot of different flavors of boot 00:28:07.385 --> 00:28:09.305 camp that might also be interesting. 00:28:09.810 --> 00:28:11.940 Colin: Yeah, I think we started out talking about how there's 00:28:11.940 --> 00:28:12.990 so many different paths. 00:28:12.990 --> 00:28:16.410 And I think the important thing too is it's like not, everyone's gonna have the 00:28:16.415 --> 00:28:18.390 same amount of time, attention, money. 00:28:18.690 --> 00:28:19.320 Sources. 00:28:19.320 --> 00:28:24.330 And the beautiful thing is that there are these, you know, specific boot camps 00:28:24.330 --> 00:28:27.600 for underrepresented groups, but then there's also these, like, you know, 00:28:27.600 --> 00:28:30.390 when do I have time to learn to code? 00:28:30.390 --> 00:28:34.260 If it's only gonna be at night, there are going to be options, whether it's 00:28:34.260 --> 00:28:39.540 free code camp or joining, you know, meetups like, w N RB, things like that. 00:28:39.920 --> 00:28:41.330 Because you're also gonna. 00:28:41.945 --> 00:28:44.965 Pairing yourself up with, you know, and creating an accountability group, a 00:28:44.965 --> 00:28:49.195 friend group, a peer group of people who are in the same place as you learning. 00:28:49.195 --> 00:28:52.795 And so while it can be great to find a mentor, that's also 00:28:52.795 --> 00:28:53.995 a little bit ahead of you. 00:28:54.305 --> 00:28:57.215 Having somebody go through that with you is also gonna help is I think the 00:28:57.220 --> 00:29:00.545 same thing when I'm training for a race, it's like, I need another person 00:29:00.545 --> 00:29:04.265 that I know I'm gonna go meet to go for a run sometimes to make it happen. 00:29:04.755 --> 00:29:06.765 And if we're learning things together, we can. 00:29:07.205 --> 00:29:08.465 Teach it to each other. 00:29:08.525 --> 00:29:09.605 That's a great way to learn. 00:29:09.605 --> 00:29:09.875 Right. 00:29:09.995 --> 00:29:11.435 You know, kind of echo it back. 00:29:11.845 --> 00:29:13.645 Sometimes people are like, oh, you gotta work harder and 00:29:13.645 --> 00:29:14.785 you gotta find another job. 00:29:14.785 --> 00:29:18.355 And it's like, getting into tech can really change somebody's 00:29:18.355 --> 00:29:22.135 life and, you know, in a really quick and meaningful way. 00:29:22.135 --> 00:29:23.785 And so I love. 00:29:24.320 --> 00:29:26.060 There are all these opportunities now. 00:29:26.130 --> 00:29:29.570 And, and if you're looking for ways into this and haven't been 00:29:29.570 --> 00:29:33.920 able to find, uh, clear path, I invite you to reach out on Twitter. 00:29:34.230 --> 00:29:36.000 I think you mentioned it down below, here. 00:29:36.935 --> 00:29:40.115 Meeting other devs and just kind of dipping into the dev Twitter 00:29:40.115 --> 00:29:41.255 world a little bit can help. 00:29:41.465 --> 00:29:43.055 It can be a lot at times too. 00:29:43.055 --> 00:29:45.905 So, you know, dip in, dip out as you need to. 00:29:45.910 --> 00:29:50.105 But if you have any questions about how to get started or are not finding things 00:29:50.105 --> 00:29:54.035 in your area, definitely feel free to reach out and we can kind of amplify that 00:29:54.035 --> 00:29:55.955 and, and find some resources for you. 00:29:56.250 --> 00:29:56.640 CJ: Totally. 00:29:56.817 --> 00:30:02.267 So I think maybe could we jump into languages, like specific languages 00:30:02.267 --> 00:30:05.567 that you might pick and then we can wrap up with our like advice 00:30:05.837 --> 00:30:06.887 for getting into programming. 00:30:07.127 --> 00:30:11.067 Colin: The age old, question CJ, what language should I pick? 00:30:11.367 --> 00:30:13.407 CJ: I think I've seen this like a million times, right? 00:30:13.407 --> 00:30:16.467 Like what language should I learn or I wanna get into coding, but there's 00:30:16.467 --> 00:30:21.027 so many different frameworks and do I need to learn, react or SELT or. 00:30:22.137 --> 00:30:23.157 Should I learn a licker. 00:30:23.157 --> 00:30:25.827 Should I learn R it's like, okay, hold on. 00:30:27.027 --> 00:30:28.137 pump the brakes a little bit. 00:30:28.137 --> 00:30:29.907 What do you actually want to build? 00:30:30.387 --> 00:30:34.387 If you go into, a home Depot or Lowe's and you go to the tools section. 00:30:35.312 --> 00:30:40.142 You don't just say like, do I want a saw or do I want a hammer or do I want like 00:30:40.172 --> 00:30:42.962 this other, like a, a Jack for my car? 00:30:42.992 --> 00:30:44.012 It's like, okay, wait a second. 00:30:44.012 --> 00:30:45.962 They all have very specific purposes. 00:30:46.472 --> 00:30:48.452 Programming languages are pretty similar. 00:30:48.602 --> 00:30:52.232 Some of them are gonna work better for certain use cases 00:30:52.232 --> 00:30:53.792 and certain applications. 00:30:54.252 --> 00:30:56.562 Let's just like, maybe get into it a little bit in terms. 00:30:57.462 --> 00:31:00.192 What things that you might build with certain languages? 00:31:00.312 --> 00:31:03.972 I think both Colin and I have a lot of experience on the web and we don't 00:31:03.972 --> 00:31:07.452 wanna like necessarily discount all these other software engineering routes. 00:31:07.457 --> 00:31:10.542 So we'll try to do our best to also highlight what we 00:31:10.547 --> 00:31:11.682 know about some languages. 00:31:11.742 --> 00:31:15.882 This is not a comprehensive list, but we will definitely tell you what we 00:31:15.912 --> 00:31:17.772 think you should learn for the web 00:31:18.402 --> 00:31:21.102 Colin: And well, and before we jump into specific ones, I would say, 00:31:21.102 --> 00:31:25.212 there's, there's picking a tool for the specific thing you wanna build if 00:31:25.212 --> 00:31:30.402 you're learning, but then there's also going to be, I guess, we'll, we'll get 00:31:30.407 --> 00:31:34.002 to it as we get to each language, but there, there are going to be some that 00:31:34.002 --> 00:31:36.342 are gonna be faster paths to a job. 00:31:37.212 --> 00:31:40.962 Learning some of these, some of the less used jobs. 00:31:41.172 --> 00:31:43.722 And we talked about this in the stack overflow survey, right? 00:31:43.722 --> 00:31:46.542 There's some that are highly paid right now. 00:31:46.542 --> 00:31:49.242 There are some that are highly in, in demand. 00:31:49.692 --> 00:31:52.902 And so picking the least of in demand programming language 00:31:52.907 --> 00:31:54.072 is probably not the best bet. 00:31:54.422 --> 00:31:56.372 But at the same time, there's still just tools. 00:31:56.372 --> 00:32:01.712 And ultimately you're learning how to code, not how to code PHP or learning 00:32:01.717 --> 00:32:04.022 how to code in Ruby, Javas, et cetera. 00:32:05.842 --> 00:32:08.242 CJ: Just like learning how to code in general. 00:32:08.992 --> 00:32:14.632 I think it's also sort of surprising how after you've learned two languages, it's 00:32:14.632 --> 00:32:16.312 really easy to pick up a third language. 00:32:16.312 --> 00:32:19.642 So when you're learning your first language, it's kind of uncomfortable 00:32:19.642 --> 00:32:22.372 when you're learning the second language, it'll feel confusing and weird, but. 00:32:23.077 --> 00:32:26.227 After after you've got like a couple under your belt, it's usually pretty 00:32:26.227 --> 00:32:27.607 easy to pick up a third, fourth, fifth. 00:32:27.607 --> 00:32:31.957 So it's, it's not uncommon for you to like know or be comfortable 00:32:31.957 --> 00:32:34.777 in one programming language and get a job in another language. 00:32:34.807 --> 00:32:36.637 And they'll just like your company can expect that. 00:32:36.637 --> 00:32:37.597 You'll learn it as you go. 00:32:38.307 --> 00:32:39.057 Number one. 00:32:40.077 --> 00:32:45.507 uh, I think, yeah, I would, I would say this is probably the number one language. 00:32:45.777 --> 00:32:48.087 Should we start from the number one or should we start from the, like 00:32:48.267 --> 00:32:49.977 Colin: I didn't realize these were stack ranked, so 00:32:50.037 --> 00:32:52.647 CJ: I sort of, I mean, I don't know, they're not necessarily stack 00:32:52.647 --> 00:32:53.907 ranked, but I put them in order of 00:32:53.997 --> 00:32:59.967 Colin: I think this looks like a pretty good order of getting a job, um, and speed 00:32:59.967 --> 00:33:04.557 to which you can build a thing, because I think the challenge with some languages is 00:33:04.557 --> 00:33:06.987 that you might be able to just build the back end and then now you gotta go learn 00:33:06.987 --> 00:33:08.277 another thing to build the front end. 00:33:08.757 --> 00:33:13.047 So starting off with JavaScript, we can try to get best of both worlds 00:33:13.587 --> 00:33:14.937 and you're gonna interact with tools. 00:33:14.937 --> 00:33:18.597 You already have like browsers that you have for free on your machine. 00:33:19.167 --> 00:33:19.587 CJ: Yeah. 00:33:20.007 --> 00:33:22.947 So the first one is JavaScript slash type script. 00:33:23.407 --> 00:33:25.717 if you don't know anything about programming, you can just 00:33:25.722 --> 00:33:29.317 think of type script as like a special version of JavaScript. 00:33:29.617 --> 00:33:31.117 That's like a little bit more advanced. 00:33:31.717 --> 00:33:34.447 JavaScript is different from Java. 00:33:34.972 --> 00:33:36.562 And it's very different from Java. 00:33:36.592 --> 00:33:40.942 So Java script is the programming language that runs in your browser. 00:33:41.542 --> 00:33:47.122 It is how you can make interactive experiences like Google calendar, how 00:33:47.152 --> 00:33:49.852 most modern web applications are built. 00:33:49.942 --> 00:33:54.382 And you are not using any application on the web today that does not 00:33:54.382 --> 00:33:58.402 have JavaScript, probably, maybe some bank websites or something. 00:33:58.492 --> 00:33:59.062 Colin: Craigslist. 00:33:59.467 --> 00:33:59.707 CJ: Yeah. 00:33:59.707 --> 00:34:01.327 Or if you're like on tour, right. 00:34:01.327 --> 00:34:03.037 Like because yeah. 00:34:03.097 --> 00:34:03.967 Uh, whatever. 00:34:04.297 --> 00:34:04.597 Yeah. 00:34:04.747 --> 00:34:09.727 So JavaScript and type script are, great to learn because they 00:34:09.727 --> 00:34:13.507 run in the browser, but they also run in a ton of other places. 00:34:14.057 --> 00:34:16.517 What is like the weirdest thing that you've written in JavaScript 00:34:16.517 --> 00:34:19.067 or like the weirdest place that you've run JavaScript before. 00:34:19.292 --> 00:34:22.382 Colin: I have written JavaScript on a robot. 00:34:22.482 --> 00:34:23.382 It was called Johnny. 00:34:23.387 --> 00:34:25.272 I think it was called Johnny five or something like that. 00:34:25.272 --> 00:34:25.962 It was pretty cool. 00:34:26.542 --> 00:34:29.267 I think it was like a node package called Johnny five. 00:34:30.137 --> 00:34:30.617 CJ: Nice. 00:34:30.917 --> 00:34:36.587 So there, yeah, I, I definitely have seen people building things with drones, 00:34:36.587 --> 00:34:38.317 with robots, with like little leg. 00:34:38.807 --> 00:34:39.527 Stuff. 00:34:40.007 --> 00:34:43.907 So it's something that you can use outside of web programming. 00:34:44.477 --> 00:34:47.597 It's also something that you can use for building these interactive experiences. 00:34:47.602 --> 00:34:51.077 You can also use JavaScript and type script what we'll call like on the 00:34:51.077 --> 00:34:54.497 back end, which means on the server. 00:34:54.797 --> 00:34:59.237 Which is interacting with the databases or interacting with other services through 00:34:59.237 --> 00:35:05.327 APIs, which is kind of like crafting what is ultimately delivered to the browser. 00:35:05.477 --> 00:35:08.537 You also will see JavaScript in a bunch of, you know, 00:35:08.537 --> 00:35:10.097 these no code, low code tools. 00:35:10.097 --> 00:35:13.937 So inside of air table, you can sort of sprinkle in a little bit of JavaScript 00:35:13.937 --> 00:35:16.037 to make your air table do custom things. 00:35:16.037 --> 00:35:20.537 Or if you want to deploy a Lambda function, or if you're working 00:35:20.537 --> 00:35:22.127 on cloud flare workers or. 00:35:22.602 --> 00:35:25.242 If you're inside a Google sheets, there's just so many different places 00:35:25.242 --> 00:35:27.162 where you can run and use JavaScript. 00:35:28.782 --> 00:35:31.152 Colin: I would say the next one, you kind of need to know 00:35:31.212 --> 00:35:32.532 if you're gonna use JavaScript. 00:35:32.572 --> 00:35:36.612 It it's definitely changed, but so HTML and CSS, it's the least 00:35:36.612 --> 00:35:40.292 like any of these other languages, cuz it's for structuring content is 00:35:40.292 --> 00:35:42.002 ultimately what you're doing with HTML. 00:35:42.007 --> 00:35:45.542 But everything again that you interact with on the web is comprised at the end 00:35:45.542 --> 00:35:48.332 of the day of JavaScript, HTML and CSS. 00:35:48.872 --> 00:35:53.882 This is one where I don't envy people learning it today versus 00:35:53.882 --> 00:35:55.382 like kind of growing up with it. 00:35:55.722 --> 00:35:59.502 But the other side of that is you didn't have to do all the things that we had 00:35:59.507 --> 00:36:02.532 to do back then to make things work. 00:36:02.532 --> 00:36:05.142 So it's a lot nicer and cleaner. 00:36:05.147 --> 00:36:08.262 There are, you could choose to go learn it using tailwind. 00:36:08.262 --> 00:36:12.372 You could learn how tailwind was made and like go, you know, just. 00:36:13.052 --> 00:36:17.522 Raw pure CSS, which I do encourage so that you understand how it works. 00:36:17.982 --> 00:36:21.012 But it's really going to be like the foundation, you know, when you're 00:36:21.017 --> 00:36:25.272 building the house, it's the foundation and what the, like how many rooms 00:36:25.272 --> 00:36:28.332 are there and what, what color is on the walls and all that kind of stuff. 00:36:29.017 --> 00:36:29.497 CJ: Totally. 00:36:29.977 --> 00:36:30.217 Yeah. 00:36:30.222 --> 00:36:31.267 HTML and CSS. 00:36:31.267 --> 00:36:32.347 That's gonna be your structure. 00:36:33.307 --> 00:36:36.397 I would say, yeah, HTML is the structure of CSS is the styling. 00:36:36.677 --> 00:36:37.607 We mentioned tailwind. 00:36:37.637 --> 00:36:44.717 Tailwind is a set of like pre-built CSS things that make it a little bit easier 00:36:44.717 --> 00:36:47.237 to work with and make it really beautiful. 00:36:47.397 --> 00:36:50.397 in every single one of these language is gonna have like libraries that you 00:36:50.397 --> 00:36:53.697 can add on or use so that you don't have to write everything from scratch. 00:36:54.192 --> 00:36:56.412 Colin: Well, and I would say the other reason is that you don't 00:36:56.412 --> 00:36:58.392 also have to be a designer, right? 00:36:58.392 --> 00:37:01.452 It's like, you can know what good looks like, but it's really hard 00:37:01.457 --> 00:37:02.472 to make things that look good. 00:37:03.402 --> 00:37:04.302 CJ: it is super hard. 00:37:04.542 --> 00:37:04.932 Yeah. 00:37:05.052 --> 00:37:08.202 Colin: a lot of people are like, oh, well, I'm not good at, you know, design. 00:37:08.202 --> 00:37:09.432 So I can't be a developer. 00:37:09.432 --> 00:37:11.832 And it's like, there's a lot of developers who never touch the front end. 00:37:12.342 --> 00:37:15.222 There are a lot of front end developers who wish the peop back end people 00:37:15.222 --> 00:37:16.422 don't touch the front end too. 00:37:16.502 --> 00:37:17.192 vice versa. 00:37:17.242 --> 00:37:18.197 So that's HTML. 00:37:18.827 --> 00:37:24.197 So the rest of these are pretty focused on like, they, I guess could be front 00:37:24.197 --> 00:37:29.647 end in some world, but, Python and Ruby, these ones are compared a lot there are 00:37:29.647 --> 00:37:31.207 startups that do everything in Python. 00:37:31.567 --> 00:37:34.537 There are startups that do everything in Ruby, usually with Ruby on 00:37:34.537 --> 00:37:38.257 rails or Sinatra, something like that or I think at Stripe, you 00:37:38.257 --> 00:37:39.697 guys don't even use rails, right? 00:37:39.697 --> 00:37:42.157 You guys are just one big old Ruby app. 00:37:42.207 --> 00:37:45.657 I think you're gonna see a lot of boot camps that focus on these two. 00:37:45.717 --> 00:37:47.907 There's a lot of boot camps that do JavaScript. 00:37:48.407 --> 00:37:49.397 Front end and back end. 00:37:49.887 --> 00:37:52.797 Almost all of them are gonna touch HTML and CSS, but then you're 00:37:52.797 --> 00:37:53.967 probably gonna find boot camps. 00:37:53.967 --> 00:37:56.997 So like we teach Python or we teach Ruby on rails. 00:37:57.457 --> 00:37:59.737 So again, this is gonna really, to kind of depend on what kinds 00:37:59.737 --> 00:38:01.057 of companies you wanna work at. 00:38:01.357 --> 00:38:04.147 If you're not choosy about what kind of companies you work at, and you're 00:38:04.152 --> 00:38:07.657 gonna learn the language and then go find the companies that use it. 00:38:08.117 --> 00:38:11.177 We both have pretty extensive experience in Ruby and rails. 00:38:11.747 --> 00:38:13.847 Somehow I have dodged writing. 00:38:14.592 --> 00:38:16.542 Hardly any Python in, in my 00:38:16.752 --> 00:38:17.412 CJ: Oh, really? 00:38:17.442 --> 00:38:18.192 Okay. 00:38:18.222 --> 00:38:18.252 Okay. 00:38:19.302 --> 00:38:20.742 Colin: just has never really happened. 00:38:20.742 --> 00:38:23.622 I think I've written like 20 lines of Python in my whole life. 00:38:23.622 --> 00:38:27.752 So, that might, that might need to change, but, yeah, anything to add on those two? 00:38:28.182 --> 00:38:33.492 CJ: Just that Python is also used a lot in academia for people 00:38:33.497 --> 00:38:36.732 who are working on math degrees, they're working on data science. 00:38:36.732 --> 00:38:38.172 They're trying to do some machine learning. 00:38:38.172 --> 00:38:41.262 There's a ton of utilities built. 00:38:41.487 --> 00:38:45.987 Four Python that make doing machine learning stuff easier. 00:38:46.137 --> 00:38:51.627 And Python is also one of the languages that you can interview with at Google. 00:38:51.657 --> 00:38:54.327 So it is, I don't know, that might be a reason that you might wanna learn it. 00:38:54.727 --> 00:38:58.122 But interestingly, none of the languages we've talked about yet are languages 00:38:58.127 --> 00:39:00.192 that I learned in a four year CS degree. 00:39:00.192 --> 00:39:00.882 So we'll keep going. 00:39:02.082 --> 00:39:03.252 uh, yeah. 00:39:03.417 --> 00:39:06.757 Colin: So the next one is PHP, which I think is one of the 00:39:06.817 --> 00:39:09.037 first web languages that I used. 00:39:09.457 --> 00:39:13.567 Um, it's a little bit different in that it lets you run PHP on the back end. 00:39:13.567 --> 00:39:17.827 You can run PHP in line of HTML on the front end. 00:39:17.877 --> 00:39:22.567 It's kind of like server generated front ends, and WordPress uses 00:39:22.567 --> 00:39:23.737 this, so it's very popular. 00:39:25.472 --> 00:39:25.922 CJ: Totally. 00:39:26.432 --> 00:39:29.432 Yeah, we've got C sharp and F sharp up next. 00:39:29.437 --> 00:39:33.672 These are like microsoft.net, languages. 00:39:33.672 --> 00:39:35.262 They're commonly used in enterprise. 00:39:36.017 --> 00:39:42.177 With windows stuff, Azure, you can make games like Xbox games, in C sharp. 00:39:42.327 --> 00:39:48.122 And I think probably also using things like unity and whatever you can also use 00:39:48.122 --> 00:39:52.772 both of these languages for building on the web, through.net core and asp.net. 00:39:53.472 --> 00:39:55.502 C sharp was a language that I wrote a. 00:39:56.312 --> 00:39:57.302 Early in my career. 00:39:57.302 --> 00:39:59.972 And then I took a huge break and wrote a bunch of Python in Ruby. 00:40:00.302 --> 00:40:04.532 And recently I started playing around with it and it's, it's a great language. 00:40:04.532 --> 00:40:05.342 It's really fun. 00:40:05.392 --> 00:40:06.437 And it's really powerful. 00:40:06.977 --> 00:40:11.087 It used to be much, much more verbose, but now it's getting more and more concise. 00:40:11.092 --> 00:40:12.862 We've got several other languages here. 00:40:12.862 --> 00:40:14.812 We've got Elixer Java. 00:40:15.562 --> 00:40:19.762 These are both gonna be, you know, a little bit less common SQL and 00:40:19.792 --> 00:40:23.182 R are two languages that you might hear a lot about in the data space. 00:40:23.212 --> 00:40:26.662 Like if you're working with databases directly, you might write a bunch of 00:40:26.662 --> 00:40:31.312 SQL R is another language that you might write a bunch of like MATLAB code. 00:40:31.312 --> 00:40:34.852 I think I wrote like a tiny bit of this in college, but not a ton. 00:40:35.152 --> 00:40:37.522 And then here's a bunch, here's a list of languages. 00:40:37.522 --> 00:40:41.182 I would not invest in learning unless it was required for a 00:40:41.187 --> 00:40:42.412 job that you're already working. 00:40:42.922 --> 00:40:46.972 Fortran Cobal VBA objective C Pearl. 00:40:47.182 --> 00:40:52.982 These are all kind of like languages that, were really common like 30 years ago. 00:40:53.042 --> 00:40:55.652 And you will still see some applications written in them. 00:40:55.657 --> 00:40:58.862 And ultimately like eventually people will be highly paid to maintain these, 00:40:58.862 --> 00:41:03.792 but I would not go learn these as your first language by any means. 00:41:04.362 --> 00:41:06.162 Colin: What, what do you think about learning? 00:41:06.167 --> 00:41:09.552 I know like a lot of TMY classes and things are teaching people how 00:41:09.552 --> 00:41:11.472 to learn, how to code using swift. 00:41:11.982 --> 00:41:13.142 What are your thoughts there? 00:41:13.632 --> 00:41:16.692 CJ: Yeah, so I didn't add swift to the list, but I, I would say if 00:41:16.692 --> 00:41:21.282 you're gonna build any like Mac app or iOS app, then I would learn swift. 00:41:21.762 --> 00:41:28.002 But that said you can use JavaScript to build Mac apps and iOS apps through 00:41:28.482 --> 00:41:30.552 electron and through react native. 00:41:30.552 --> 00:41:30.822 So. 00:41:31.257 --> 00:41:31.617 Colin: Yeah. 00:41:31.807 --> 00:41:35.527 I like swift, but I do think it limits your potential, right? 00:41:35.527 --> 00:41:38.317 In terms of like, you're still gonna learn the foundations of programming. 00:41:38.317 --> 00:41:41.737 once you learn what a four loop looks like once you understand what, 00:41:42.167 --> 00:41:47.147 functions in classes and iteration is, it's really learning, like what does 00:41:47.147 --> 00:41:51.557 this language have and not have, and, you know, do they have types or not? 00:41:51.947 --> 00:41:54.107 And so it's not learning the language itself. 00:41:54.107 --> 00:41:56.397 It's learning the, the individual data structures. 00:41:57.242 --> 00:41:58.442 And components of it. 00:41:58.912 --> 00:42:02.302 And like with swift, it's like a beautiful language, but if you only 00:42:02.302 --> 00:42:06.562 can run it on two different devices, that's just gonna limit the jobs. 00:42:06.562 --> 00:42:06.712 Right. 00:42:06.712 --> 00:42:09.832 You can go work at apple, you can work at companies that make apple apps. 00:42:10.262 --> 00:42:12.212 You can make your own app, things like that. 00:42:12.242 --> 00:42:15.172 But, all said, where should people start? 00:42:15.262 --> 00:42:18.142 If they come to you and ask, what language should I learn? 00:42:18.722 --> 00:42:20.132 CJ: I say learn JavaScript. 00:42:20.567 --> 00:42:27.317 And then I am a little bit partial, but I say then learn Ruby and Ruby on rails. 00:42:27.857 --> 00:42:34.067 I think like, honestly, I don't actually know CSS very well or like at all. 00:42:34.277 --> 00:42:36.707 And so I lean heavily on CSS frameworks. 00:42:36.712 --> 00:42:41.087 And so I don't think that one's too, important, HTML is 00:42:41.087 --> 00:42:43.967 important, but it's also like, there's not a ton of surface area. 00:42:43.967 --> 00:42:44.717 So I think you can. 00:42:45.587 --> 00:42:46.607 HTML pretty quickly. 00:42:46.607 --> 00:42:50.627 So I would say, start with JavaScript, learn a little bit of HTML, a little bit 00:42:50.627 --> 00:42:53.387 of CSS, and then learn Ruby, learn rails. 00:42:53.387 --> 00:42:57.437 That's my like preference, but Python is also, I think probably 00:42:58.067 --> 00:42:59.387 equally valuable to learn. 00:42:59.957 --> 00:43:00.257 Colin: Yeah. 00:43:00.317 --> 00:43:04.097 I mean, there are Japanese satellites running Ruby, so it's gotta be 00:43:04.427 --> 00:43:05.927 good for something right now. 00:43:05.927 --> 00:43:09.312 We, both write Ruby pretty much daily or at least I know I do. 00:43:09.832 --> 00:43:11.542 It's like my go-to when I want to. 00:43:11.947 --> 00:43:13.447 Build something from scratch. 00:43:13.937 --> 00:43:16.427 And like you mentioned with HTML on CSS, if you're gonna be building 00:43:16.427 --> 00:43:19.787 your own projects, you're gonna like there, isn't gonna be someone 00:43:19.787 --> 00:43:21.467 else to write your HTML on CSS. 00:43:21.467 --> 00:43:25.377 So you're gonna have to dabble in it, be familiar with it, learn how 00:43:25.382 --> 00:43:28.017 it's loaded and how, how it works. 00:43:28.067 --> 00:43:31.002 You don't necessarily need to know every little thing about the 00:43:31.002 --> 00:43:34.182 flex box and the box model and all these different kinds of things. 00:43:34.182 --> 00:43:36.892 So, that's kind of the language rundown. 00:43:37.792 --> 00:43:39.952 So kind of closing thoughts here. 00:43:40.382 --> 00:43:43.802 Do you have any like last minute advice for people who are thinking about 00:43:43.802 --> 00:43:47.652 getting into programming or maybe they don't think of themselves in this 00:43:47.652 --> 00:43:49.272 quote unquote traditional background. 00:43:49.632 --> 00:43:51.402 How do they make the move? 00:43:51.402 --> 00:43:53.202 How do they make the switch into programming? 00:43:53.982 --> 00:43:57.012 CJ: Whatever, like language you decide or whatever path you decide, 00:43:57.012 --> 00:43:58.932 stick with it and be persistent. 00:43:58.932 --> 00:44:00.637 Whatever you choose, stick with it. 00:44:00.847 --> 00:44:03.157 I think there's a couple different things that can help a lot. 00:44:03.157 --> 00:44:08.297 One is learn a hello world and then go through some interactive coerce, like 00:44:08.297 --> 00:44:14.837 on code academy, try to build something real on a cloud IDE like relet or glitch 00:44:14.837 --> 00:44:17.987 where you don't actually have to have an environment set up, start connecting 00:44:17.987 --> 00:44:19.577 with other developers on Twitter. 00:44:20.087 --> 00:44:24.947 There is a hashtag called a hundred days of code where you post a tweet every 00:44:24.947 --> 00:44:27.857 day for a hundred days of what you're learning, that can be really valuable. 00:44:28.397 --> 00:44:33.997 And then, one other plug was that exorcism.io is a great website where 00:44:33.997 --> 00:44:37.937 you can download, little exercises and programming languages and publish 00:44:37.937 --> 00:44:42.167 your solution and get reviews by other experienced programmers that have, 00:44:42.517 --> 00:44:43.817 used that language for a long time. 00:44:43.967 --> 00:44:46.177 So that's in a nutshell, but I would tell people. 00:44:46.822 --> 00:44:47.152 Colin: Yeah. 00:44:47.152 --> 00:44:51.232 I like exorcism a lot more than like the leak code or hacker ranks, cuz 00:44:51.232 --> 00:44:54.772 those are a little bit more like you're gonna get the same kinds of algorithms 00:44:54.772 --> 00:44:59.452 and challenges, but it's just like more of a community than those other ones. 00:44:59.452 --> 00:44:59.662 Like. 00:45:00.077 --> 00:45:02.537 Those are the tools that you might need to, to grind 00:45:02.537 --> 00:45:03.977 through, to get a job interview. 00:45:03.977 --> 00:45:08.027 But exorcism is just like a lot of fun and you get to use your own 00:45:08.027 --> 00:45:12.077 tools, your own IDE and stuff like that to, to do the, the problems. 00:45:12.577 --> 00:45:16.217 One that I would take a look at is called, roadmap.sh, which 00:45:16.217 --> 00:45:17.357 I'll put in the show notes. 00:45:19.012 --> 00:45:22.432 I will preface this with, do not be overwhelmed by the amount of things 00:45:22.432 --> 00:45:26.092 that are on some of these maps, but basically they offer these roadmaps 00:45:26.422 --> 00:45:29.152 for different types of developers. 00:45:29.152 --> 00:45:32.452 And so I would mostly focus on front end or back end. 00:45:32.602 --> 00:45:35.812 I haven't looked at the individual language ones, but what's really cool 00:45:35.817 --> 00:45:37.142 is that if you know, you wanna be. 00:45:37.822 --> 00:45:42.622 On the back end, it kind of gives you this roadmap of things to learn. 00:45:42.712 --> 00:45:45.712 And that doesn't mean you need to be an expert in every single 00:45:45.712 --> 00:45:49.072 one of these things, but you can see how things are connected, 00:45:49.072 --> 00:45:51.202 like version control and hosting. 00:45:51.472 --> 00:45:52.342 We didn't really talk about. 00:45:52.782 --> 00:45:55.182 Development environments, like you mentioned with relet and 00:45:55.182 --> 00:45:56.532 these web web ones, right? 00:45:56.922 --> 00:46:01.432 It's like, you need to become really good at using your own computer, using terminal 00:46:01.432 --> 00:46:03.262 and moving around the file system. 00:46:03.322 --> 00:46:07.812 So you're gonna kind of like layer and build up this knowledge, over time. 00:46:08.572 --> 00:46:11.572 And then you have these like, choose your own adventure moments. 00:46:11.882 --> 00:46:15.032 I like, if we think about this as like D and D or a video game, like 00:46:15.272 --> 00:46:18.992 you only have so many points that you can put into different skills 00:46:19.262 --> 00:46:20.702 and you can't max them all out. 00:46:20.702 --> 00:46:22.922 So you're like, okay, I'm gonna lean a little bit more on the 00:46:22.922 --> 00:46:28.172 back end and I'm gonna get really familiar with get, but okay. 00:46:28.172 --> 00:46:30.902 I don't have any more talent points to go put in. 00:46:30.962 --> 00:46:34.742 Like, how am I gonna build a CSS framework from scratch or something like that? 00:46:35.357 --> 00:46:36.887 And then just like a game too. 00:46:36.887 --> 00:46:38.837 You're gonna have these points where you choose a path. 00:46:39.167 --> 00:46:41.597 Doesn't mean you can't go backwards and go down a different path. 00:46:41.597 --> 00:46:44.657 It's just, you know, choosing a language is probably gonna 00:46:44.657 --> 00:46:46.127 feel like one of those paths. 00:46:46.487 --> 00:46:49.937 And then as you start to level up, you get to learn another language. 00:46:49.997 --> 00:46:53.177 We can start to think of it as like a, like a role playing game there. 00:46:53.607 --> 00:46:55.407 There should just be a role playing game where you learn. 00:46:55.667 --> 00:46:56.447 Program. 00:46:56.447 --> 00:46:59.507 It's like, you got to level 30 and you get to choose a new language. 00:47:01.197 --> 00:47:04.317 CJ: So I think some of the, like some of the stuff that's used at 00:47:04.347 --> 00:47:07.407 like the elementary level right now actually does work like that. 00:47:07.457 --> 00:47:09.047 Colin: Like code combat and stuff like that. 00:47:09.357 --> 00:47:10.827 CJ: Yeah, yeah, yeah, exactly. 00:47:10.857 --> 00:47:11.187 Yeah. 00:47:11.187 --> 00:47:13.707 So my kids go through some of those programs now. 00:47:13.737 --> 00:47:15.177 I'm like, whoa, I wish I had this. 00:47:15.267 --> 00:47:15.807 I was a kid. 00:47:16.097 --> 00:47:16.517 Colin: Yeah. 00:47:16.697 --> 00:47:19.187 You're like, you're building up your, you got an extra point in 00:47:19.187 --> 00:47:21.947 HTML and you're a Ruby master. 00:47:22.737 --> 00:47:23.037 CJ: Yep. 00:47:24.492 --> 00:47:24.852 Colin: Awesome. 00:47:24.852 --> 00:47:27.852 We'll put all these links in the show notes. 00:47:27.902 --> 00:47:30.122 This is, talking to you in the future, I guess, but we're gonna 00:47:30.122 --> 00:47:34.262 be, rolling out episodes looks like at the beginning of August. 00:47:34.262 --> 00:47:38.662 So build and learn will officially be live and, welcome to episode three. 00:47:38.812 --> 00:47:41.992 where can people find you and all the things that you're doing online? 00:47:41.992 --> 00:47:42.322 CJ? 00:47:42.967 --> 00:47:46.177 CJ: So I'm, uh, at C J dev on Twitter. 00:47:46.237 --> 00:47:51.917 And if you head over to C j.dev, you can find links to articles and 00:47:51.917 --> 00:47:53.327 videos and stuff that I'm working on. 00:47:53.777 --> 00:47:54.887 So what about you calling. 00:47:55.457 --> 00:47:55.757 Colin: Awesome. 00:47:55.757 --> 00:47:55.907 Yeah. 00:47:55.907 --> 00:48:00.407 And I'll do a quick plug for CJ's own YouTube channel, where you can learn to 00:48:00.407 --> 00:48:02.957 code, in very different, languages and D. 00:48:03.047 --> 00:48:06.867 Examples, some videos of you learning to code with your kids in 00:48:06.867 --> 00:48:10.207 Minecraft and some other places, which can be a lot of fun too. 00:48:10.207 --> 00:48:14.587 So for me, you can find me at Colin Lorez on Twitter and basically 00:48:14.587 --> 00:48:16.117 all of the internet places. 00:48:16.167 --> 00:48:18.207 So definitely feel free to give us a shout. 00:48:18.207 --> 00:48:22.087 If you have any questions about this episode, or if you're looking 00:48:22.107 --> 00:48:26.277 for any resources on where to get started and we'll see you next time. 00:48:27.312 --> 00:48:27.437 CJ: cool. 00:48:27.737 --> 00:48:28.247 Bye friends.