1 00:00:00,000 --> 00:00:02,239 Russ Altman: But then sometimes we just talk about things that have nothing to do 2 00:00:02,239 --> 00:00:04,050 with science, and I actually love those. 3 00:00:04,050 --> 00:00:08,459 And it's possible that I'm better at those because I know less, and 4 00:00:08,459 --> 00:00:12,610 so the chances, just as you were saying, of me falling into jargon and 5 00:00:12,619 --> 00:00:16,379 not even realizing that's much less likely in an area where I'm clueless. 6 00:00:16,409 --> 00:00:18,829 So I do feel comfortable in those clueless areas. 7 00:00:18,849 --> 00:00:22,869 Mm. And one of my nice, I think a nice- personality feature is I'm 8 00:00:22,869 --> 00:00:24,439 not too worried about my dignity. 9 00:00:24,509 --> 00:00:27,859 So if I come across as clueless in an area, I'm fine with that. 10 00:00:27,859 --> 00:00:29,339 Like, I'm fine to look clueless. 11 00:00:31,735 --> 00:00:34,025 Neil McPhedran: Welcome to Continuing Studies, a podcast for higher 12 00:00:34,025 --> 00:00:37,385 education podcasters who want to learn, connect, and get inspired. 13 00:00:37,775 --> 00:00:41,835 I am Neil McPhedran, founder of HigherEdPods.com and 14 00:00:41,845 --> 00:00:43,135 Podium Podcast Company. 15 00:00:43,965 --> 00:00:46,305 Jennifer Lee: And I'm Jennifer Lee, founder of JPod Creations. 16 00:00:47,335 --> 00:00:48,185 Podcasting is broadcasting. 17 00:00:48,195 --> 00:00:50,795 If you're podcasting in higher ed, you're not alone. 18 00:00:51,125 --> 00:00:53,205 There's a fast-growing community out there, and we're 19 00:00:53,205 --> 00:00:54,375 here to help you tap into it. 20 00:00:54,415 --> 00:00:55,535 Neil McPhedran: We want to hear from you. 21 00:00:55,605 --> 00:01:00,345 Later this week, I am going to be in Leeds at EPOD. 22 00:01:00,345 --> 00:01:00,395 Jennifer Lee: Yes. 23 00:01:00,395 --> 00:01:02,155 Neil McPhedran: So if you're there, let me know. 24 00:01:02,175 --> 00:01:03,515 I'd love to chat with you in person. 25 00:01:03,565 --> 00:01:09,895 So Jen, this episode, we are chatting with Russ Altman from Stanford. 26 00:01:10,014 --> 00:01:14,993 I have been working with Russ for a number of years with his podcast there, 27 00:01:14,993 --> 00:01:17,393 so I'm super excited to have Russ on. 28 00:01:17,433 --> 00:01:23,173 And Russ is the Kenneth Fong Professor of Bioengineering, Genetics, 29 00:01:23,233 --> 00:01:28,813 Medicine, Biomedical Data Science, and by courtesy, Computer Science. 30 00:01:28,883 --> 00:01:30,823 Yes, five different faculties. 31 00:01:30,863 --> 00:01:37,220 And if that's not enough, he's also the host of The Future of Everything podcast, 32 00:01:37,550 --> 00:01:45,290 which has been running since 2017, and they're at about 315 episodes now. 33 00:01:45,358 --> 00:01:46,030 Quite amazing. 34 00:01:46,030 --> 00:01:50,360 And so that's a weekly show, so that's also a big chunk of Russ's time. 35 00:01:50,410 --> 00:01:56,030 And I am super excited to jump into this conversation and to get nitty-gritty 36 00:01:56,060 --> 00:02:02,070 about his journey And we have some really good inside baseball on this 37 00:02:02,070 --> 00:02:07,623 one about podcasting and interviewing other smart people from Stanford. 38 00:02:07,733 --> 00:02:08,306 Let's jump into it. 39 00:02:08,864 --> 00:02:11,134 Russ, so great to have you here on the show today. 40 00:02:11,180 --> 00:02:12,350 Russ Altman: Thanks for having me. 41 00:02:12,730 --> 00:02:13,710 Super excited. 42 00:02:14,260 --> 00:02:17,210 Neil McPhedran: So Russ, I'm quite familiar with The Future of Everything, 43 00:02:17,210 --> 00:02:20,380 but maybe for the listeners who may not know about the show, can you 44 00:02:20,400 --> 00:02:22,440 give us a quick little overview? 45 00:02:22,470 --> 00:02:25,180 Russ Altman: So this is a podcast that comes out of Stanford University. 46 00:02:25,180 --> 00:02:27,350 I'm a faculty member at Stanford University. 47 00:02:27,700 --> 00:02:31,160 I'm in five departments, and they're all kind of in medicine or engineering. 48 00:02:31,540 --> 00:02:35,600 We started out as a SiriusXM radio show for a couple years. 49 00:02:35,800 --> 00:02:39,540 It was a very good relationship with SiriusXM, but about five, six years ago 50 00:02:39,560 --> 00:02:41,770 we realized this was really a podcast. 51 00:02:41,770 --> 00:02:44,766 And that's when we met you, 'cause you helped us with this transition Turns 52 00:02:44,766 --> 00:02:48,268 out being a radio show and being a podcast is not exactly the same, and 53 00:02:48,268 --> 00:02:51,408 in fact, we needed to tighten things up, and you were really helpful. 54 00:02:51,438 --> 00:02:56,558 But what we do is I talk to scholars at Stanford about how 55 00:02:56,558 --> 00:02:58,418 their work is inventing the future. 56 00:02:58,468 --> 00:03:01,328 The easy way to remember that is to think about, like, scientists 57 00:03:01,328 --> 00:03:04,728 who are discovering stuff or engineers who are building stuff. 58 00:03:04,888 --> 00:03:08,428 But it turns out we've branched out and we talk to lawyers and business people. 59 00:03:08,468 --> 00:03:11,688 And really, scholars are all about discovering new knowledge. 60 00:03:11,768 --> 00:03:15,238 And it turns out that most is useful for the future, and that's where we 61 00:03:15,238 --> 00:03:16,598 got the name The Future of Everything. 62 00:03:16,881 --> 00:03:19,337 So far, it's been entirely Stanford faculty. 63 00:03:19,337 --> 00:03:23,184 I have a very deep bench of highly vetted faculty colleagues. 64 00:03:23,244 --> 00:03:25,784 We've thought every now and then about going outside There's a lot 65 00:03:25,784 --> 00:03:27,234 of interesting people out there. 66 00:03:27,564 --> 00:03:32,324 But after 310 episodes, we're not even close to getting through all of 67 00:03:32,324 --> 00:03:33,804 the good people that I wanna talk to. 68 00:03:33,854 --> 00:03:36,454 Jennifer Lee: And Russ, I'm really glad to finally meet you and- 69 00:03:36,454 --> 00:03:38,724 learn more about The Future of Everything, because I hear 70 00:03:38,724 --> 00:03:40,274 so much about it through Neil. 71 00:03:40,334 --> 00:03:44,413 Besides being on radio, Has your show switched the format, or have 72 00:03:44,413 --> 00:03:47,313 you learnt a lot of different things from when you first started to now? 73 00:03:47,413 --> 00:03:52,823 Russ Altman: I had a really great kind of Yoda-type producer at Sirius, David Hall. 74 00:03:52,833 --> 00:03:56,613 He's a radio guy, and he would give me sandwiches, little feedback sandwiches. 75 00:03:56,623 --> 00:03:57,423 "You're doing great. 76 00:03:57,423 --> 00:04:00,973 It's awesome." Then what he really wanted to tell me, "You gotta stop doing this," 77 00:04:00,973 --> 00:04:02,873 do more of this." and I'm very grateful. 78 00:04:02,913 --> 00:04:07,745 We came up with the idea of a 15- minute segment and a 10-minute segment. 79 00:04:07,765 --> 00:04:11,345 That was, like, 25, and when you added the intros and the outros, 80 00:04:11,345 --> 00:04:15,265 it just got to around 30 minutes, which was a very radio-friendly time. 81 00:04:15,295 --> 00:04:18,265 So our format really hasn't changed very much. 82 00:04:18,445 --> 00:04:23,355 What's changed the most is I used to give pretty long-winded intros where I did a 83 00:04:23,355 --> 00:04:28,545 lot of research, and I set up the guest, and I gave a little tutorial about the 84 00:04:28,735 --> 00:04:32,115 topic that we were gonna be discussing so that the, uh, listeners would 85 00:04:32,115 --> 00:04:34,485 understand any jargon that might come up. 86 00:04:34,565 --> 00:04:38,695 And over time, he just said, "No, these can be shorter and shorter." And now 87 00:04:38,865 --> 00:04:43,435 I literally compose them with a couple of quick jots before I do the intro, 88 00:04:43,605 --> 00:04:45,945 and it's just five, six sentences. 89 00:04:46,135 --> 00:04:48,925 And it used to be a page and a half of typed text. 90 00:04:48,925 --> 00:04:52,415 And so that's the big change is that you don't really need 91 00:04:52,415 --> 00:04:54,105 to do a big, long-winded intro. 92 00:04:54,275 --> 00:04:57,615 You can actually do the intro by the questions that you ask the guest 93 00:04:57,785 --> 00:04:59,035 at the beginning of the interview. 94 00:04:59,055 --> 00:05:02,745 So that's a much more interactive way to get the basic information out. 95 00:05:02,785 --> 00:05:05,945 Neil McPhedran: Speaking of intros, we actually, at the beginning, we've 96 00:05:05,985 --> 00:05:11,128 added a little 45-second segment from you where you revisit the original 97 00:05:11,257 --> 00:05:14,077 purpose of the show from 2017. 98 00:05:14,077 --> 00:05:14,147 Russ Altman: Yeah. 99 00:05:14,147 --> 00:05:18,569 Neil McPhedran: And recently there was a feeling that you needed to go back 100 00:05:18,609 --> 00:05:20,619 and address that original reasoning. 101 00:05:20,619 --> 00:05:21,029 Russ Altman: Yeah. 102 00:05:21,069 --> 00:05:24,449 Neil McPhedran: tell us a little bit about that intention and why it still 103 00:05:24,449 --> 00:05:26,339 exists, and it's still important today? 104 00:05:26,359 --> 00:05:26,679 Russ Altman: Yeah. 105 00:05:26,739 --> 00:05:32,149 So Sirius came to us around 2016, 2017, when I was extremely aware of, 106 00:05:32,179 --> 00:05:36,439 like, public mistrust of science, and that has only kind of continued 107 00:05:36,439 --> 00:05:40,779 But I said, "Okay, this is not a bad time to do something like this because if I can 108 00:05:40,779 --> 00:05:46,329 get scientists just being real about what they do, why they do it, it might take 109 00:05:46,329 --> 00:05:51,439 away this kind of ivory tower, these are just, like, elitists who are… Like, they 110 00:05:51,439 --> 00:05:54,559 can't relate to people. They're working on things that don't really matter." 111 00:05:54,809 --> 00:05:59,429 And so my hypothesis was that we could bring science to regular people and 112 00:05:59,459 --> 00:06:04,059 make the case implicitly that these are just talented people thinking hard about 113 00:06:04,069 --> 00:06:08,069 hard problems that face the world and trying to make a little bit of progress. 114 00:06:08,119 --> 00:06:12,219 And so I was actually going for people who weren't thinking about science very much. 115 00:06:12,229 --> 00:06:15,979 you know that Sirius Radio comes installed with new cars. 116 00:06:16,019 --> 00:06:18,599 You get it for two or three months, and some people renew it. 117 00:06:18,839 --> 00:06:22,429 Well, one of the things I found out is the number one car sold 118 00:06:22,469 --> 00:06:27,579 that has Sirius installed is the Ford F-150 truck, and I loved that. 119 00:06:27,909 --> 00:06:31,899 And in fact, we even did some cross promotions on Sirius with the trucking 120 00:06:31,899 --> 00:06:36,389 shows, and the idea was to try to get the guys who are driving F-150s, and some of 121 00:06:36,389 --> 00:06:39,469 them I'm sure listen, but we were trying to get more of them to listen because 122 00:06:39,469 --> 00:06:43,459 we thought, "Okay, let's see if we can hit that demographic and interest them." 123 00:06:43,509 --> 00:06:46,599 And then what happened is we didn't really have data about this, but it was 124 00:06:46,599 --> 00:06:50,799 our sense from the statistics that we did have that we weren't really hitting that 125 00:06:50,799 --> 00:06:53,149 group very much, and it was the NPR crowd. 126 00:06:53,269 --> 00:06:54,809 Uh, and we love the NPR crowd. 127 00:06:54,809 --> 00:06:56,709 There's nothing bad to say about the NPR crowd. 128 00:06:56,709 --> 00:06:59,489 But the NPR crowd is already interested in science and we're 129 00:06:59,489 --> 00:07:01,139 grateful for their listening. 130 00:07:01,159 --> 00:07:05,609 But part of putting this little header at the top of each show is so that maybe 131 00:07:05,609 --> 00:07:09,239 somebody will say, "Huh, maybe I should give this a listen. This is not my normal 132 00:07:09,249 --> 00:07:13,219 kind of thing, but maybe this guy can make it interesting and accessible." So 133 00:07:13,219 --> 00:07:17,279 I think that's still a work in progress, but that's one of the founding goals is 134 00:07:17,279 --> 00:07:19,519 to make it real and make it relatable. 135 00:07:20,021 --> 00:07:22,881 Jennifer Lee: And that's the thing that I like because I think after talking to 136 00:07:22,881 --> 00:07:27,461 a lot of higher education podcasters out there, sometimes it's really hard to make 137 00:07:27,461 --> 00:07:31,201 your topic relatable to everybody because- 138 00:07:31,261 --> 00:07:31,491 Russ Altman: Yeah 139 00:07:31,591 --> 00:07:34,751 … Jennifer Lee: when we're experts, we like to use a lot of high- 140 00:07:34,781 --> 00:07:34,801 Russ Altman: Yeah 141 00:07:34,981 --> 00:07:39,121 … Jennifer Lee: intellectual jargon, and sometimes people don't necessarily know 142 00:07:39,131 --> 00:07:43,001 what that is, or sometimes the topics, I'm not being mean, can be very dry. 143 00:07:43,041 --> 00:07:43,801 Russ Altman: You are right. 144 00:07:43,831 --> 00:07:47,671 So I consider one of my main jobs as a host is to be the jargon police. 145 00:07:47,711 --> 00:07:51,001 somebody will say, "Oh, I get funding from the NIH," I usually say, "That's 146 00:07:51,021 --> 00:07:52,481 National Institutes of Health. 147 00:07:52,661 --> 00:07:56,041 They fund biomedical research." And I know that most people know 148 00:07:56,041 --> 00:07:57,731 that, but not everybody knows that. 149 00:07:57,791 --> 00:08:02,741 And so acronyms and jargon, and what my, producer, David, who I talk about, he 150 00:08:02,741 --> 00:08:06,701 said, "Russ, one of the things that I like is sometimes people are talking about 151 00:08:06,701 --> 00:08:10,461 their work and they're going off into Never Never Land, and you're pretty good 152 00:08:10,461 --> 00:08:12,901 on the fly at coming up with analogies." 153 00:08:13,041 --> 00:08:14,121 In fact, we were just talking about this. 154 00:08:14,121 --> 00:08:16,921 I was talking to a guy who did ultra-fast electronics, and he was 155 00:08:16,921 --> 00:08:21,691 talking about atoms and how they move in materials, and it was pretty technical. 156 00:08:21,691 --> 00:08:23,631 And I said, "Well, you're kind of saying like these atoms are like 157 00:08:23,641 --> 00:08:27,061 water in a river, and like there's little eddies at the edge, but 158 00:08:27,061 --> 00:08:28,481 there's the main line in the middle." 159 00:08:28,481 --> 00:08:32,101 And he actually liked that analogy, and he picked it up and worked with 160 00:08:32,101 --> 00:08:36,021 it, and that was like a moment of like nirvana, right, when I actually get the 161 00:08:36,021 --> 00:08:41,571 guest to adopt my analogy of their work, and then they start talking at this 162 00:08:41,571 --> 00:08:44,431 level where everybody can understand it 'cause everybody knows what a river is. 163 00:08:44,521 --> 00:08:45,040 Neil: That's great. 164 00:08:45,672 --> 00:08:45,772 Jennifer Lee: Well hopefully. 165 00:08:46,232 --> 00:08:46,372 russ: Yeah. 166 00:08:46,852 --> 00:08:47,712 Otherwise, yeah 167 00:08:47,742 --> 00:08:50,842 Neil McPhedran: You did kind of allude to it off the top, but although a lot 168 00:08:50,842 --> 00:08:53,992 of the episodes are science, and this is from the School of Engineering- 169 00:08:54,002 --> 00:08:54,022 Russ Altman: Yeah 170 00:08:54,022 --> 00:08:57,872 … Neil McPhedran: and you're from a number of other STEM faculties, but you do 171 00:08:57,882 --> 00:08:59,982 open up that aperture wider, correct? 172 00:09:00,042 --> 00:09:01,162 Russ Altman: Yeah, and I love that 173 00:09:01,232 --> 00:09:05,712 We had a former president of Estonia on, and that was a real kind of, 174 00:09:05,712 --> 00:09:09,172 whoa, He was visiting Stanford as a visiting faculty, and we were 175 00:09:09,172 --> 00:09:10,812 actually talking about cybersecurity. 176 00:09:10,852 --> 00:09:13,562 And I said to him, "Well, I know you were the former president of 177 00:09:13,562 --> 00:09:17,232 Estonia, but like why are you a cybersecurity expert?" And he said, 178 00:09:17,242 --> 00:09:19,122 "Russ, have you ever looked at a map? 179 00:09:19,422 --> 00:09:23,002 Estonia shares hundreds of miles of border with Russia." And he 180 00:09:23,002 --> 00:09:25,842 said, "And they are constantly trying to hack into our systems. 181 00:09:26,002 --> 00:09:28,472 So if you're president, you're an expert on cybersecurity." 182 00:09:28,472 --> 00:09:31,502 And it was very relatable, and then we just talked about cybersecurity. 183 00:09:31,672 --> 00:09:34,082 But then sometimes we just talk about things that have nothing to do with 184 00:09:34,082 --> 00:09:35,722 science, and I actually love those. 185 00:09:35,722 --> 00:09:40,912 And it's possible that I'm better at those because I know less, and so the 186 00:09:40,932 --> 00:09:44,752 chances, just as you were saying, of me falling into jargon and not even 187 00:09:44,752 --> 00:09:49,282 realizing that we're talking shop and it's not really accessible, that's much 188 00:09:49,282 --> 00:09:51,262 less likely in an area where I'm clueless. 189 00:09:51,292 --> 00:09:53,712 So I do feel comfortable in those clueless areas. 190 00:09:53,732 --> 00:09:57,752 Mm. And one of my nice, I think a nice- personality feature is I'm 191 00:09:57,752 --> 00:09:59,322 not too worried about my dignity. 192 00:09:59,392 --> 00:10:02,742 So if I come across as clueless in an area, I'm fine with that. 193 00:10:02,742 --> 00:10:04,222 Like, I'm fine to look clueless. 194 00:10:04,272 --> 00:10:04,972 Jennifer Lee: I like that. 195 00:10:05,042 --> 00:10:08,292 I also like the fact that, like you were saying, you kind of do other 196 00:10:08,292 --> 00:10:11,612 topics that are not necessarily science related, like your latest 197 00:10:11,612 --> 00:10:13,292 one, the future of influencers. 198 00:10:13,292 --> 00:10:17,282 And I just find that topic fascinating anyways because some of the things 199 00:10:17,282 --> 00:10:20,042 you guys mentioned that people don't want to be doctors or astronauts, 200 00:10:20,042 --> 00:10:21,182 they want to be influencers. 201 00:10:21,182 --> 00:10:24,632 And it brought me back to when I was working, I worked in radio in a 202 00:10:24,632 --> 00:10:30,192 helicopter, and we had a pilot and he was from England, and he had already 203 00:10:30,202 --> 00:10:32,962 had a career as a famous rock climber. 204 00:10:33,022 --> 00:10:38,062 But he would go around the UK on career day and talk to the students, and he 205 00:10:38,062 --> 00:10:40,154 would say What do people want to do? 206 00:10:40,154 --> 00:10:43,644 And he said every classroom, the whole classroom wanted to be influencers. 207 00:10:43,644 --> 00:10:46,464 And he's like, "It's kind of scary," because he said, "I don't think 208 00:10:46,464 --> 00:10:49,884 they realize that they all can be that." So I thought that this 209 00:10:49,904 --> 00:10:52,564 topic was really relatable to me and probably a lot of other people. 210 00:10:52,574 --> 00:10:53,674 Russ Altman: Yeah, I loved that. 211 00:10:53,694 --> 00:10:57,654 It was super interesting to hear, like, what the dynamics are, where that comes 212 00:10:57,654 --> 00:11:01,494 from, what the chances of success are if you actually make a run at that. 213 00:11:01,534 --> 00:11:05,064 The first time I ever had anybody tell me they wanted to be an influencer 214 00:11:05,064 --> 00:11:06,244 was, I was actually in Cuba. 215 00:11:06,334 --> 00:11:08,894 It was during a short period of time when Americans go to Cuba. 216 00:11:08,944 --> 00:11:10,264 Jennifer Lee: Oh, that was a very short time. 217 00:11:10,354 --> 00:11:12,604 Russ Altman: And I'm hanging out with a family that was kind of hosting us 218 00:11:12,604 --> 00:11:17,094 for dinner, and I'm talking to their 11-year-old boy who can't get internet, 219 00:11:17,094 --> 00:11:19,944 so he would get DVDs- … of the internet. 220 00:11:20,164 --> 00:11:23,904 And he would load them up, and He would listen to the podcasts late, 'cause he 221 00:11:23,904 --> 00:11:28,504 would get just hundreds of, of megabytes on DVDs that were, like, basically pirated 222 00:11:28,764 --> 00:11:33,114 out of the US and pirated into Cuba, uh, because Cuba had very strict rules. 223 00:11:33,284 --> 00:11:36,814 Anyway, this 11-year-old in Cuba says, "I wanna be an influencer." 224 00:11:36,964 --> 00:11:38,464 I almost fell off my chair. 225 00:11:38,494 --> 00:11:38,514 Yeah, 226 00:11:38,514 --> 00:11:41,414 Neil McPhedran: You just said that you find the topics where 227 00:11:41,464 --> 00:11:44,734 it's not your field of expertise actually an easier way to interview. 228 00:11:44,884 --> 00:11:45,044 Russ Altman: Yeah. 229 00:11:45,104 --> 00:11:48,224 Neil McPhedran: I bet you there's lots of academics that are the opposite. 230 00:11:48,244 --> 00:11:52,214 They would feel quite uncomfortable with prepping for an interview where they're 231 00:11:52,214 --> 00:11:55,464 not deeply knowledgeable about the topic. 232 00:11:55,464 --> 00:12:00,742 Do you think that it's your general curiosity that's given you that comfort? 233 00:12:00,803 --> 00:12:04,803 Or is it just the fact that you've been doing this for 300-plus episodes and 234 00:12:05,188 --> 00:12:06,867 you've kind of got your head around it? 235 00:12:06,907 --> 00:12:08,347 Russ Altman: Okay, so it's multifactorial. 236 00:12:08,427 --> 00:12:08,577 Neil McPhedran: Hm. 237 00:12:08,627 --> 00:12:11,717 Russ Altman: I have three kids, and I have one of my kids who is a little bit 238 00:12:11,717 --> 00:12:14,857 more like me, and she likes to make people laugh, and when she was a little girl. 239 00:12:14,857 --> 00:12:17,847 I said, "You know, you're like me. You don't really worry about your dignity." 240 00:12:17,847 --> 00:12:20,357 And she said, "What's dignity?" And I said, "Well, let me give you an example. 241 00:12:20,367 --> 00:12:23,547 If you're at school and you think of something funny to say that would 242 00:12:23,547 --> 00:12:27,473 make you look a little bit stupid, but it would be really funny, would you 243 00:12:27,473 --> 00:12:31,283 say it?" And she said, "Absolutely." I said, "Me too." I said, "Your 244 00:12:31,283 --> 00:12:34,793 sister and your brother wouldn't do that, and your mom wouldn't do that. 245 00:12:34,823 --> 00:12:38,203 And it's because you and I are willing to trade off our dignity 246 00:12:38,243 --> 00:12:41,933 for, like, entertainment value." And so that's part of my personality. 247 00:12:42,143 --> 00:12:45,483 The other thing is I've been on the faculty at Stanford for, like, 34 248 00:12:45,483 --> 00:12:48,373 years, so I have much less to lose. 249 00:12:48,373 --> 00:12:51,963 And in a funny way, if people wanna judge what I know and what 250 00:12:51,963 --> 00:12:53,543 I don't know, I don't really care. 251 00:12:53,573 --> 00:12:56,943 You can imagine that as a young person you're a little bit less secure- for 252 00:12:56,943 --> 00:13:00,083 understandable reasons, because your, your peers are judging you, your 253 00:13:00,083 --> 00:13:02,783 supervisors are… I mean, people might be judging me, but I don't care. 254 00:13:02,873 --> 00:13:03,333 It's fine. 255 00:13:03,483 --> 00:13:07,343 And so there's a certain comfort in your own shoes that, that I, that 256 00:13:07,343 --> 00:13:09,103 I have just because of where I am. 257 00:13:09,473 --> 00:13:12,928 The other thing is that I know I'm a pretty good teacher, and I know 258 00:13:12,928 --> 00:13:17,488 that struggling with material with other people is a great way to learn. 259 00:13:17,508 --> 00:13:22,028 So I know that if I'm not on top of that topic, I'm probably gonna ask 260 00:13:22,048 --> 00:13:25,718 more basic questions, which will allow the guest to bring me along, and 261 00:13:25,718 --> 00:13:27,128 that'll probably bring the guest along. 262 00:13:27,128 --> 00:13:32,778 So it's almost like a superpower that this kind of naive, I don't know a thing about 263 00:13:32,778 --> 00:13:34,848 this, leads to asking basic questions. 264 00:13:34,848 --> 00:13:36,878 And then the questions, of course, get more complicated. 265 00:13:36,908 --> 00:13:40,138 That's just what one of the listeners might do if they were 266 00:13:40,138 --> 00:13:41,798 in control of the interaction. 267 00:13:41,818 --> 00:13:45,068 And so, I think it's all of these things together combine to make it 268 00:13:45,098 --> 00:13:49,398 hopefully pretty relatable and kind of not losing too many people as 269 00:13:49,398 --> 00:13:53,048 we go through the logic of what is sometimes extremely technical stuff. 270 00:13:53,098 --> 00:13:56,288 Jennifer Lee: Well, that's why I think you're also very approachable as well, 271 00:13:56,808 --> 00:14:02,208 and your guests like to talk to you because sometimes I find in intellectuals 272 00:14:02,328 --> 00:14:06,188 and professors we kind of hold them up really high, and some people get 273 00:14:06,188 --> 00:14:07,508 really nervous around those type- Yeah 274 00:14:07,508 --> 00:14:10,678 of people being like, "He's got this huge successful show, but I don't 275 00:14:10,678 --> 00:14:12,568 know, like, why is he interviewing me?" 276 00:14:12,568 --> 00:14:12,618 Russ Altman: Yeah. 277 00:14:12,618 --> 00:14:14,668 Jennifer Lee: So I think that's why a lot of people feel really 278 00:14:14,668 --> 00:14:17,368 comfortable, and you're able to lead them through that story. 279 00:14:17,378 --> 00:14:17,708 Russ Altman: Yeah. 280 00:14:17,708 --> 00:14:19,958 Thanks for saying that, and I, I try to do that. 281 00:14:19,988 --> 00:14:23,848 I have had people who come on, you can tell from their emails before the show 282 00:14:23,888 --> 00:14:25,268 that they're super nervous, right? 283 00:14:25,268 --> 00:14:26,038 You can just tell. 284 00:14:26,338 --> 00:14:28,758 And so I have this rule, and it's mostly 'cause I'm lazy, 285 00:14:29,148 --> 00:14:30,988 no contact with the guest. 286 00:14:31,169 --> 00:14:34,749 partly 'cause I do not want them to say awesome stuff to me that we're 287 00:14:34,749 --> 00:14:36,489 not capturing on the camera, right? 288 00:14:36,639 --> 00:14:40,169 Because that means we're already into the relationship, and the, the guest 289 00:14:40,199 --> 00:14:42,019 and the listeners are not hearing it. 290 00:14:42,049 --> 00:14:44,069 So and that really bugs some of them 'cause they'll say, "Russ, 291 00:14:44,069 --> 00:14:44,939 I really wanna get together. 292 00:14:44,939 --> 00:14:47,549 I wanna go over what we're gonna talk about." And I say, "I love you. 293 00:14:47,859 --> 00:14:48,959 We're not doing that. 294 00:14:49,099 --> 00:14:52,229 We're gonna have a journey of discovery together. 295 00:14:52,309 --> 00:14:54,359 You can talk to my producer all you want. 296 00:14:54,399 --> 00:14:55,789 Send me all the notes. 297 00:14:55,929 --> 00:14:58,869 He'll tell me the things you wanna be in bounds and out of bounds, 298 00:14:59,009 --> 00:15:01,839 like, all that stuff is fine, but I'm not gonna talk to you" 299 00:15:02,047 --> 00:15:03,587 Jennifer Lee: I love that rule. 300 00:15:03,587 --> 00:15:04,367 Can I just say that? 301 00:15:04,367 --> 00:15:07,317 Because this is my biggest pet peeve in podcasting, and I know 302 00:15:07,317 --> 00:15:10,167 we do it as well, and Neil listens to me harp on this all the time. 303 00:15:10,227 --> 00:15:14,597 But I, in radio, you never got to do, like, I used to interview rock stars 304 00:15:14,597 --> 00:15:15,997 and people of note and stuff like that. 305 00:15:15,997 --> 00:15:16,257 Russ Altman: Oh, oh. 306 00:15:16,257 --> 00:15:19,287 Jennifer Lee: You don't do a pre-interview, and then two, it's 307 00:15:19,297 --> 00:15:21,747 live, so you don't even have a chance- Right … of editing it. 308 00:15:22,017 --> 00:15:22,047 Russ Altman: Right. 309 00:15:22,127 --> 00:15:26,247 Jennifer Lee: And then three, I hate this idea that everybody asks for 310 00:15:26,247 --> 00:15:28,397 questions before they get on the podcast. 311 00:15:28,397 --> 00:15:30,057 I'm like- Yeah … "I'm not giving you my questions." That's 312 00:15:30,057 --> 00:15:30,787 Russ Altman: a hard no. 313 00:15:30,787 --> 00:15:31,007 Jennifer Lee: Hard no. 314 00:15:31,007 --> 00:15:31,577 Russ Altman: That's a hard no. 315 00:15:31,687 --> 00:15:34,807 Love that, and I didn't know that about radio and that experience, but 316 00:15:34,807 --> 00:15:36,567 that's exactly what my instinct is. 317 00:15:36,647 --> 00:15:37,837 And it was because of what I just said. 318 00:15:37,847 --> 00:15:41,337 I don't want them to say awesome stuff that we miss, right? 319 00:15:41,377 --> 00:15:44,697 And I definitely don't want to be, like, on the air saying, "Hey, before 320 00:15:44,697 --> 00:15:47,767 this, you told me this one thing. Could you tell me again in the same way?" 321 00:15:47,777 --> 00:15:47,797 Jennifer Lee: Ugh. 322 00:15:47,807 --> 00:15:49,657 Russ Altman: "Because it was really cool." Absolutely not. 323 00:15:49,747 --> 00:15:51,987 And so I tell them, I don't even tell them the first question. 324 00:15:51,997 --> 00:15:55,147 I tell them for that first segment, right ,before I press record, I tell them, 325 00:15:55,167 --> 00:15:59,087 "Here's how it's gonna go. I have my first question figured out. I'm gonna ask you 326 00:15:59,087 --> 00:16:03,091 that, and then we're gonna have 15 minutes that are gonna be totally organic." I 327 00:16:03,091 --> 00:16:05,401 have no idea what's gonna come next. 328 00:16:05,401 --> 00:16:08,771 It depends on what you say, and then what I'm thinking, and then what you're 329 00:16:08,771 --> 00:16:10,801 thinking, and it goes really well. 330 00:16:11,001 --> 00:16:14,361 But just because some people, you know, they just have different expectations 331 00:16:14,391 --> 00:16:18,151 and they wanna talk about what questions are in bounds with me, or they wanna 332 00:16:18,151 --> 00:16:23,631 say, "Here is a curated script for how it could go," and I just will not do that, 333 00:16:23,631 --> 00:16:27,281 especially for that first segment, what I call the organic first 15 minutes. 334 00:16:27,331 --> 00:16:30,061 Jennifer Lee: No, because sometimes you can have duds too when you 335 00:16:30,101 --> 00:16:33,151 give them the questions advance and they get even more nervous. 336 00:16:33,171 --> 00:16:36,931 And then I remember one time when I was interviewing someone on a podcast, 337 00:16:37,021 --> 00:16:38,511 because again, you can't do this in radio. 338 00:16:38,681 --> 00:16:38,861 Right. 339 00:16:39,021 --> 00:16:42,591 Someone was, like, following verbatim, and they, no joke, they were like, "Well, 340 00:16:42,591 --> 00:16:44,251 you didn't ask me the next question." 341 00:16:44,711 --> 00:16:46,371 And that drives me psycho. 342 00:16:46,371 --> 00:16:46,531 Russ Altman: Right. 343 00:16:46,531 --> 00:16:46,661 Right. 344 00:16:46,661 --> 00:16:49,401 Jennifer Lee: And it's, I didn't ask you the, that question 'cause I'm 345 00:16:49,401 --> 00:16:52,201 a good interviewer and I'm piecing- Yeah … it together in my mind. 346 00:16:52,531 --> 00:16:54,611 Neil McPhedran: This is, this is why Jenn and I work well together. 347 00:16:54,611 --> 00:16:57,651 We've, so we've been doing this for three years, uh, and this is why we 348 00:16:57,651 --> 00:17:01,501 work well together, 'cause I like to sort of meet the person ahead of time. 349 00:17:01,541 --> 00:17:04,131 Jenn refuses to, so I do the reconnaissance. 350 00:17:04,131 --> 00:17:04,291 Jennifer Lee: I still do. 351 00:17:04,291 --> 00:17:04,611 Neil McPhedran: I do, I do the reconnaissance. 352 00:17:04,611 --> 00:17:08,191 Russ Altman: But Neil, but Neil, we, we didn't, I literally looked at my calendar 353 00:17:08,191 --> 00:17:11,641 this morning and said, "I have no effing idea what Neil wants to talk to me 354 00:17:11,641 --> 00:17:13,431 about." So I'm gonna give you full credit. 355 00:17:13,431 --> 00:17:17,781 Maybe you withheld your, your urges, but I loved the prep for this- You know- 356 00:17:17,821 --> 00:17:18,751 because it was zero 357 00:17:18,761 --> 00:17:20,991 … Neil McPhedran: we've talked to our audience about this before, Russ, but 358 00:17:20,991 --> 00:17:25,041 we've got a Google Docs, and Jenn's in it, and I'm in it, and Kylie is 359 00:17:25,041 --> 00:17:26,781 in it right now, who's our producer. 360 00:17:26,791 --> 00:17:27,031 Russ Altman: Yeah. 361 00:17:27,101 --> 00:17:29,561 Neil McPhedran: And we write notes and we talk to each other in it. 362 00:17:29,661 --> 00:17:32,741 I've outlined all these questions I wanna ask you, and Jenn 363 00:17:32,851 --> 00:17:34,841 typically does not follow it. 364 00:17:34,991 --> 00:17:35,081 Uh- 365 00:17:35,081 --> 00:17:35,511 Russ Altman: Boom. 366 00:17:35,511 --> 00:17:36,011 Boom 367 00:17:36,131 --> 00:17:39,292 … Neil McPhedran: but it's great because I just sort of keep us moving into 368 00:17:39,342 --> 00:17:42,262 the direction of covering the things we wanna cover, and Jenn always comes 369 00:17:42,262 --> 00:17:43,672 in with these great other things. 370 00:17:43,682 --> 00:17:45,602 Russ Altman: Let me tell you one little story, which you may know. 371 00:17:45,622 --> 00:17:47,562 But so I do prep, obviously. 372 00:17:47,592 --> 00:17:50,851 the day before, I Google stalk, basically, my guest. 373 00:17:50,951 --> 00:17:54,451 I do write down, like, a bunch of questions that I could ask. 374 00:17:54,491 --> 00:17:55,331 It's not scripted. 375 00:17:55,331 --> 00:17:56,161 They're not even in order. 376 00:17:56,191 --> 00:17:58,471 this is always done in longhand on a piece of paper. 377 00:17:58,531 --> 00:18:02,571 On the far left, I have what I call my emergency topics, and this is for 378 00:18:02,691 --> 00:18:07,641 you get a guest who actually answers questions, like, with, like, three words 379 00:18:07,691 --> 00:18:11,271 and then you actually go through all your normal questions and you still 380 00:18:11,271 --> 00:18:14,241 have 10 minutes left in the interview and you've used all your questions up. 381 00:18:14,301 --> 00:18:17,031 So I always have like 20 emergency topics. 382 00:18:17,211 --> 00:18:21,831 These are usually papers they wrote like 10 years ago on interesting topics, 383 00:18:22,091 --> 00:18:26,461 but they let me go into the discussion knowing that there's no way we're gonna 384 00:18:26,461 --> 00:18:30,881 run out of stuff to talk about because I could always say, "Hey, in 2015 you 385 00:18:30,881 --> 00:18:34,901 wrote a paper about how like peanuts can be used as projectiles or whatever." 386 00:18:35,021 --> 00:18:37,271 And then I know that we can have a conversation about that. 387 00:18:37,281 --> 00:18:41,731 So it's my emergency topics so I don't get nervous about running out of material. 388 00:18:41,851 --> 00:18:42,861 Jennifer Lee: And that's great. 389 00:18:42,861 --> 00:18:46,121 I always tell people too, like, it's not that I'm not prepped. 390 00:18:46,121 --> 00:18:48,391 You need questions and you need to be prepped. 391 00:18:48,401 --> 00:18:49,611 It's a fine balance. 392 00:18:49,621 --> 00:18:52,241 And that's the thing is it's like even when I worked in radio 393 00:18:52,241 --> 00:18:53,651 before, everybody's prepped. 394 00:18:53,661 --> 00:18:56,841 Even the top podcasters are prepped, but it's how you're able 395 00:18:56,841 --> 00:19:00,031 to take that information and make it sound like you're not prepped. 396 00:19:00,031 --> 00:19:02,372 Jen: sorry, Russ got me started on all my big pet peeves, but my 397 00:19:02,372 --> 00:19:03,572 Russ Altman: Go for it, for for it, talk to me. 398 00:19:03,701 --> 00:19:05,921 Jennifer Lee: Other big pet peeve is when people are like, "I don't 399 00:19:05,921 --> 00:19:09,081 need to prep for my podcast, I just wanna feel cool and loose. 400 00:19:09,081 --> 00:19:11,621 I want it sound like off the cuff." And I said, "You're not gonna sound 401 00:19:11,801 --> 00:19:14,441 off the cuff if you don't know what the hell you're talking about." 402 00:19:14,451 --> 00:19:14,641 Russ Altman: Yeah. 403 00:19:14,691 --> 00:19:15,461 it's so true. 404 00:19:15,511 --> 00:19:19,791 that one hour that I spent trying to get into the brain of the guest, that pays off 405 00:19:19,801 --> 00:19:21,911 with spontaneous questions the next day. 406 00:19:21,961 --> 00:19:22,461 Neil McPhedran: That's great. 407 00:19:22,561 --> 00:19:22,961 That's good. 408 00:19:23,001 --> 00:19:23,251 Okay. 409 00:19:23,251 --> 00:19:26,921 So we just did this technique, which I've actually borrowed from you, Russ. 410 00:19:27,001 --> 00:19:27,531 Jennifer Lee: Or stole. 411 00:19:27,561 --> 00:19:28,611 Russ Altman: Oh, yeah. 412 00:19:28,611 --> 00:19:31,111 Neil McPhedran: I sat, I sat… Our regular producer was on spring break, 413 00:19:31,111 --> 00:19:35,271 and so I sat in on the background to help you with one of your interviews recently, 414 00:19:35,301 --> 00:19:37,631 and you do this mid-interview break. 415 00:19:37,631 --> 00:19:42,251 You actually are quite ardent about your time and at the 20-minute mark 416 00:19:42,251 --> 00:19:46,631 or as close to it, you basically duck out, still rolling, but you duck out 417 00:19:46,631 --> 00:19:51,451 of the conversation interview and talk about the next 10 minutes essentially. 418 00:19:51,491 --> 00:19:55,011 So maybe just tell us a little bit about where that originated from. 419 00:19:55,533 --> 00:19:57,493 You're still doing it after all these years, so- 420 00:19:57,533 --> 00:19:57,813 Russ Altman: Yeah 421 00:19:57,843 --> 00:19:59,123 … Neil McPhedran: it must be a really useful tool. 422 00:19:59,143 --> 00:20:02,353 Russ Altman: So I think the best way to do this is to tell you, I give a speech 423 00:20:02,413 --> 00:20:04,823 to the guest almost before we go on air. 424 00:20:04,873 --> 00:20:05,763 Let me just give that speech. 425 00:20:05,873 --> 00:20:06,223 Neil McPhedran: Oh, please. 426 00:20:06,223 --> 00:20:07,593 Russ Altman: Thank you so much for being on the call. 427 00:20:07,593 --> 00:20:09,133 We're gonna do this in two segments. 428 00:20:09,143 --> 00:20:11,303 The first segment is a 15-minute segment. 429 00:20:11,313 --> 00:20:14,733 I have the first question picked out, and then we are gonna be organic. 430 00:20:14,743 --> 00:20:16,863 Wherever we go, we go. 431 00:20:16,943 --> 00:20:17,713 It's all good. 432 00:20:17,783 --> 00:20:18,673 Then we're gonna take a break. 433 00:20:18,673 --> 00:20:19,983 It's gonna be two to three-minute break. 434 00:20:20,053 --> 00:20:22,703 And what I'm gonna do is I'm gonna ask you what you wanna talk about. 435 00:20:22,883 --> 00:20:25,983 And because you might think back on that 15 minutes and say, "You know what? 436 00:20:26,143 --> 00:20:29,643 It was a great conversation, but I have all this stuff that I wanna say about 437 00:20:29,643 --> 00:20:33,363 my work or my life or the choices I've made or whatever, and you didn't ask 438 00:20:33,363 --> 00:20:37,713 me about any of that, you know?" and so at this point during that break, 439 00:20:37,723 --> 00:20:41,553 you can say, "Russ, please ask me about this and this and this because 440 00:20:41,563 --> 00:20:42,783 that's what I wanted to talk about." 441 00:20:42,993 --> 00:20:46,753 So it gives me a little contract with them at the very beginning that if there's 442 00:20:46,763 --> 00:20:50,873 stuff that they wanna get to, they will have a chance to tell me to… And it's 443 00:20:50,873 --> 00:20:54,003 their first chance because I wouldn't talk to them before the interview. 444 00:20:54,153 --> 00:20:58,273 And then what I don't tell them is the second reason to do this is that 445 00:20:58,633 --> 00:21:01,773 in one of my very early episodes, we had this woman who was great. 446 00:21:01,993 --> 00:21:05,663 She was in cybersecurity, another cybersecurity person, and it was about 447 00:21:05,683 --> 00:21:10,393 North Korea and China and Iran and Russia, but it was all doom and gloom. 448 00:21:10,573 --> 00:21:14,133 And my producer took me aside and said, "Russ, this is great, but like you 449 00:21:14,133 --> 00:21:18,133 can't end on doom and gloom. If you do that too often, people are gonna say, 450 00:21:18,133 --> 00:21:22,103 'Whenever I listen to Altman's podcast, I'm like depressed,' and they just won't 451 00:21:22,133 --> 00:21:25,723 tune in because you're too depressing. So I want you to end on a positive." 452 00:21:25,723 --> 00:21:29,503 And so I said to her, I said, "Amy, this is going great, but like, you 453 00:21:29,503 --> 00:21:31,243 know, this is very much of a downer. 454 00:21:31,393 --> 00:21:34,463 Do you have something positive?" And she looks at me and she says, "Russ, I 455 00:21:34,463 --> 00:21:37,343 got nothing but doom and gloom." And I said, "Well, there must be something." 456 00:21:37,343 --> 00:21:41,853 She said, "How about I give people three things that they can do to protect 457 00:21:41,853 --> 00:21:45,513 their own personal cybersecurity?" I said, "That's perfect." And it 458 00:21:45,513 --> 00:21:48,813 was, and she gave it to us and we were laughing about it, and we ended 459 00:21:48,813 --> 00:21:50,143 this cybersecurity on a positive. 460 00:21:50,273 --> 00:21:53,973 But the point is, without being Pollyanna-ish, you would like to 461 00:21:53,973 --> 00:21:55,723 end on a positive if you can, right? 462 00:21:55,723 --> 00:21:57,203 Sometimes it's just not gonna happen. 463 00:21:57,253 --> 00:22:00,993 So I, I sometimes don't even say this to the guest, but I try to 464 00:22:01,053 --> 00:22:05,113 order those topics so that the last topic is gonna give hope, right? 465 00:22:05,213 --> 00:22:07,193 It's gonna be, what's the future look like? 466 00:22:07,213 --> 00:22:08,633 What are you really excited about? 467 00:22:08,923 --> 00:22:13,353 And that is helpful 'cause it makes sure to some extent that we're always 468 00:22:13,373 --> 00:22:17,373 ending the podcast on a hopeful note, and so people don't say, "I'm not tuning 469 00:22:17,373 --> 00:22:20,683 into this. This guy just depresses me all the time." So those are the two 470 00:22:20,683 --> 00:22:24,523 reasons, to deliver on the contract, to actually let the person talk about 471 00:22:24,523 --> 00:22:27,143 what they wanted to talk about in the first place, and to make sure that 472 00:22:27,143 --> 00:22:29,313 I can engineer a positive ending. 473 00:22:29,413 --> 00:22:32,163 Neil McPhedran: I also find it it keeps your time tighter. 474 00:22:32,203 --> 00:22:35,333 I think Jenn and I have had sometimes we come out of, we'll get into these 475 00:22:35,333 --> 00:22:38,723 conversations and why I thought it was good is 'cause we sometimes get into 476 00:22:38,723 --> 00:22:43,003 conversations and like we're 45 minutes in, and we've just kind of, we didn't 477 00:22:43,003 --> 00:22:44,843 spin our wheels when we were talking. 478 00:22:44,873 --> 00:22:46,003 It was all good stuff. 479 00:22:46,013 --> 00:22:49,663 But at the end of the day, we really want this show to be 25 480 00:22:49,683 --> 00:22:50,253 minutes to 30 minutes at the most. 481 00:22:50,253 --> 00:22:52,973 Russ Altman: Right, and you've just created yourself a big editing challenge. 482 00:22:52,993 --> 00:22:53,203 Jennifer Lee: Yeah, 483 00:22:53,263 --> 00:22:53,873 Neil McPhedran: that's right. 484 00:22:53,903 --> 00:22:57,723 Jennifer Lee: It refocuses your intention and that's why I like it because it 485 00:22:57,733 --> 00:23:03,333 does go back to kind of a radio-esque style because that's what we did in 486 00:23:03,333 --> 00:23:07,363 radio is that you would need to know, and now it's funny because podcasts are 487 00:23:07,573 --> 00:23:11,583 a lot longer, but I remember thinking like, "How do I put information in a 488 00:23:11,583 --> 00:23:13,433 one-minute break, in a 30-second break?" 489 00:23:13,443 --> 00:23:15,153 And you had to have that in. 490 00:23:15,153 --> 00:23:17,113 So I like the way that helps to- That's a great point to tell 491 00:23:17,113 --> 00:23:20,287 us … yeah And it keeps you more concise, but I want to know some dirt. 492 00:23:20,297 --> 00:23:24,507 Have you ever had a guest where you do the first part and they're like … And 493 00:23:24,507 --> 00:23:26,967 you're like, "What did you want to talk about?" And then you talk about 494 00:23:26,967 --> 00:23:29,127 it and you're like, "Ugh, I didn't like that," and you just edit it out? 495 00:23:29,167 --> 00:23:29,527 Russ Altman: No. 496 00:23:29,557 --> 00:23:33,727 I must say that we only do very light ed- We have only taken out 497 00:23:33,737 --> 00:23:38,144 sentences that somebody said, like once or twice in 310 episodes. 498 00:23:38,144 --> 00:23:38,467 There you go. 499 00:23:38,467 --> 00:23:41,737 It's, I mean, I make a joke and it, it, and you know, it probably limits 500 00:23:41,737 --> 00:23:45,037 the quality of the podcast, but we're pretty much one-take wonders. 501 00:23:45,157 --> 00:23:48,887 Like, it's very … I, I don't want to diminish what the editors do, but 502 00:23:48,887 --> 00:23:50,577 they're not taking out bit segments. 503 00:23:50,623 --> 00:23:51,083 make sure- 504 00:23:51,083 --> 00:23:51,973 Jennifer Lee: They're doing other things that are important 505 00:23:52,143 --> 00:23:56,013 … Russ Altman: I make sure that we're within two, three minutes of our target on both 506 00:23:56,013 --> 00:24:00,563 segments, and since the podcast, who the hell cares if it's 25 or 31 minutes, 507 00:24:00,813 --> 00:24:03,883 but we never have gone 35 or 40 minutes. 508 00:24:03,953 --> 00:24:06,513 Neil McPhedran: I, I think that's great, and I think actually it speaks 509 00:24:06,513 --> 00:24:11,133 to one of the bigger origins of it, which is a direct voice to the 510 00:24:11,133 --> 00:24:15,333 researcher, to the academic, to the scholar, and you're not censoring. 511 00:24:15,393 --> 00:24:18,783 I think that's what I love about this, and I think what's so great about The 512 00:24:18,783 --> 00:24:24,323 Future of Everything is it's this direct voice from Stanford, from the researchers, 513 00:24:24,333 --> 00:24:28,373 from the people, there's no censoring, there's no mincing or anything like that. 514 00:24:28,403 --> 00:24:29,873 It, this is really what's happening. 515 00:24:29,873 --> 00:24:32,453 If you want to hear really what's happening with this certain field 516 00:24:32,453 --> 00:24:35,253 and in this research, break through the rhetoric, this is the show. 517 00:24:35,293 --> 00:24:38,363 Russ Altman: Thank you for saying that, and no one has precisely said it like that 518 00:24:38,373 --> 00:24:39,773 to me before, but you're absolutely right. 519 00:24:39,823 --> 00:24:43,923 Any kind of taking sentences out or rearranging paragraphs, any scholar 520 00:24:43,923 --> 00:24:47,653 paying careful attention to that edit would be infuriated, would 521 00:24:47,653 --> 00:24:49,843 probably call me up and say, "WTF?" 522 00:24:49,843 --> 00:24:50,883 Or some version of that. 523 00:24:50,883 --> 00:24:52,213 And it could wreck the show. 524 00:24:52,213 --> 00:24:55,083 It could, it could get the word out that Altman is going to 525 00:24:55,083 --> 00:24:59,003 engineer what you say to his sensibility, and that could be death. 526 00:24:59,063 --> 00:24:59,453 Neil McPhedran: That's great. 527 00:24:59,503 --> 00:25:02,843 Can we jump to, I just want to, I want to jump to video a bit, because The 528 00:25:02,843 --> 00:25:05,333 Future of Everything, It's been video the whole time I've been working on it. 529 00:25:05,343 --> 00:25:09,883 and in the last year we've really started to lean into short form. 530 00:25:09,893 --> 00:25:16,654 And we've gone from really this focus of just the long form- video version, 531 00:25:16,694 --> 00:25:16,714 Russ Altman: Yeah. 532 00:25:16,894 --> 00:25:20,794 Neil McPhedran: And we talk about it a lot in our monthly larger meeting. 533 00:25:20,794 --> 00:25:23,124 Because you have some thoughts on this, and you've come to the table- 534 00:25:23,124 --> 00:25:23,239 Russ Altman: Yeah 535 00:25:23,239 --> 00:25:24,254 Neil McPhedran: with a lot of really cool ideas. 536 00:25:24,254 --> 00:25:28,784 I'd love to hear your insight on how shorts and the shorter form component- 537 00:25:28,784 --> 00:25:28,984 Russ Altman: Right 538 00:25:28,984 --> 00:25:31,234 … Neil McPhedran: has really started to add to the whole. 539 00:25:31,264 --> 00:25:34,064 Russ Altman: Now I remember you had asked us about YouTube, and for whatever reason, 540 00:25:34,064 --> 00:25:37,964 somebody who wasn't me thought it was a good idea to start recording these, and 541 00:25:37,964 --> 00:25:41,604 I think it is a good idea, 'cause as you know, YouTube has become a major thing. 542 00:25:41,644 --> 00:25:46,967 And now I have, if not 300, probably more than 50, taped interviews with video. 543 00:25:47,487 --> 00:25:49,497 So the shorts, it was very organic. 544 00:25:49,517 --> 00:25:53,707 I noticed in my own viewing of YouTube that there were these shorts, and so 545 00:25:53,707 --> 00:25:57,587 I came to you and the team and said, "Should we be doing shorts?" I mean, 546 00:25:57,587 --> 00:26:00,567 I do know that we have statistics about listeners, and even though 547 00:26:00,567 --> 00:26:03,517 they should listen to every single fricking word I say, they don't. 548 00:26:03,927 --> 00:26:07,567 They get off after, you know, whatever, 63% I think it was last week. 549 00:26:07,627 --> 00:26:10,047 Then I said, "You know, and I know that whether I like it or 550 00:26:10,047 --> 00:26:12,837 not, people's attention span is getting shorter and shorter." 551 00:26:12,867 --> 00:26:17,237 And so we started doing shorts from the episodes where we just 552 00:26:17,257 --> 00:26:20,747 trusted our producer to find some spicy moments and throw them up. 553 00:26:20,807 --> 00:26:23,917 Then we actually made it a little bit more complicated and we 554 00:26:23,917 --> 00:26:25,547 added a new thing, which I love. 555 00:26:25,547 --> 00:26:27,307 It's called The Future in a Minute. 556 00:26:27,307 --> 00:26:30,177 So remember, the name of the podcast is The Future of Everything. 557 00:26:30,207 --> 00:26:33,707 Now we have this segment where at the end of the interview I ask rapid 558 00:26:33,707 --> 00:26:37,907 fire five questions, and I ask the guest to give me five short answers. 559 00:26:37,957 --> 00:26:40,817 And to be honest, the reason we did that was we thought this might give 560 00:26:40,817 --> 00:26:45,237 us nice sound bites that would be very compatible with the shorts. 561 00:26:45,457 --> 00:26:48,727 And as you know, because you present this data to us, uh, every month, these 562 00:26:48,727 --> 00:26:53,937 are now getting, you know, 2X or 3X the watches than the actual episode. 563 00:26:54,047 --> 00:26:55,317 And like it's not my first choice. 564 00:26:55,317 --> 00:26:57,767 I want everybody to sit down and listen to the whole damn episode, 565 00:26:57,967 --> 00:26:59,697 but I get it and I'll take it. 566 00:26:59,707 --> 00:27:04,237 I'll take it as a way for people to get a little spicy moment from the episode. 567 00:27:04,247 --> 00:27:06,087 Maybe they'll follow it and listen to the whole thing. 568 00:27:06,117 --> 00:27:09,157 But even if they don't, maybe it gives them an impression of 569 00:27:09,177 --> 00:27:11,867 scholarship at Stanford that is still positive and interesting. 570 00:27:11,867 --> 00:27:13,757 So I'm fine with it, and more than that, I love it. 571 00:27:13,817 --> 00:27:15,717 Neil McPhedran: I guess we've talked about this a bit, Jen, on the show, 572 00:27:15,727 --> 00:27:20,407 but I've really come around in the last year on that short form component. 573 00:27:20,707 --> 00:27:24,444 Formerly, I thought a discovery mechanism to drive to the long form. 574 00:27:24,444 --> 00:27:28,754 But to your point, Russ, there's an audience that is in the short form, 575 00:27:28,804 --> 00:27:32,714 and if at the end of the day we can double, triple the reach of the show- 576 00:27:32,854 --> 00:27:32,974 Russ Altman: Right, right 577 00:27:32,974 --> 00:27:35,454 … Neil McPhedran: through the short form piece of content, and we're still doing 578 00:27:35,454 --> 00:27:38,574 what the higher intention of the show is, and we're reaching those people through 579 00:27:38,574 --> 00:27:41,034 that short form, then that's also a win. 580 00:27:41,044 --> 00:27:43,884 And we're starting to look- Exactly … at the combination of those two. 581 00:27:44,144 --> 00:27:48,644 So for YouTube Analytics, we're actually starting to look at the long form and 582 00:27:48,644 --> 00:27:51,664 the short form together, and looking at the totality of those two things 583 00:27:51,664 --> 00:27:54,664 together, even though they're two different algorithms and potentially 584 00:27:54,664 --> 00:27:58,704 two different audiences, there's still the holistic nature of the two together 585 00:27:58,704 --> 00:27:59,964 that I think is super important. 586 00:28:00,064 --> 00:28:00,644 Russ Altman: I agree. 587 00:28:00,704 --> 00:28:03,974 And so there was a short period of time where I was thinking of as purely 588 00:28:04,004 --> 00:28:07,734 a leader into the longer episodes, and now I realize it is a different 589 00:28:07,734 --> 00:28:11,914 experience which also has value, and I shouldn't deprecate it as a 590 00:28:11,924 --> 00:28:14,204 second class product of this effort. 591 00:28:14,204 --> 00:28:17,184 It's a first class product, it's just the one that came second. 592 00:28:17,264 --> 00:28:17,934 Neil McPhedran: Good way to put it. 593 00:28:18,114 --> 00:28:20,314 Jennifer Lee: I just feel like we could talk to Russ the whole time. 594 00:28:20,324 --> 00:28:20,924 Like- I know. 595 00:28:20,924 --> 00:28:21,141 Let's do it. 596 00:28:21,141 --> 00:28:23,454 Let's do it … I just sort of nerd out and chat with him. 597 00:28:23,454 --> 00:28:25,094 Russ Altman: It can, it could be like The Lord of the Rings. 598 00:28:25,134 --> 00:28:26,284 We could have a troika. 599 00:28:26,354 --> 00:28:26,784 Neil McPhedran: There you go. 600 00:28:26,784 --> 00:28:27,194 I love it. 601 00:28:27,194 --> 00:28:30,034 I just have one thing I'd love to ask from you just before we, go, 'cause 602 00:28:30,034 --> 00:28:31,194 there's been such good stuff here. 603 00:28:31,194 --> 00:28:32,314 Jennifer Lee: You're sticking to your notes 604 00:28:32,334 --> 00:28:32,724 Neil McPhedran: That's right. 605 00:28:32,814 --> 00:28:35,884 Maybe just sort of any pieces of advice, like eight years now 606 00:28:35,934 --> 00:28:36,394 russ: Yeah. 607 00:28:36,444 --> 00:28:37,988 We're putting up some big numbers. 608 00:28:38,029 --> 00:28:40,781 Neil McPhedran: we just crossed a million plays actually on the 609 00:28:40,841 --> 00:28:42,262 show, which is quite incredible 610 00:28:42,689 --> 00:28:43,849 Russ Altman: I would say a couple things. 611 00:28:43,859 --> 00:28:46,522 I would say it's a lot like putting up a website. 612 00:28:46,582 --> 00:28:48,262 Putting up the website is not hard. 613 00:28:48,272 --> 00:28:50,232 Maintaining the website is hard. 614 00:28:50,252 --> 00:28:54,552 So everybody has a few podcasts in them, Anybody you meet on the street could 615 00:28:54,552 --> 00:28:56,562 probably entertain us for a few podcasts. 616 00:28:56,722 --> 00:29:01,261 But then doing the grind of having a plan for how you're gonna do 617 00:29:02,082 --> 00:29:05,353 this in the long term, that is hard, and that leads to the second. 618 00:29:05,353 --> 00:29:08,853 So the first thing is it's a marathon, not a sprint. 619 00:29:08,863 --> 00:29:10,303 Mm. That is the first piece of advice. 620 00:29:10,573 --> 00:29:14,163 And the second one is, I know one of my best friends has a solo. 621 00:29:14,273 --> 00:29:16,643 He tapes it, he edits it, he puts it out. 622 00:29:16,713 --> 00:29:18,563 It's pretty successful. 623 00:29:18,733 --> 00:29:19,243 But guess what? 624 00:29:19,243 --> 00:29:21,903 He's retired, so he has like infinite time to do this. 625 00:29:22,093 --> 00:29:25,473 In general, especially if you're a professor type, you wanna have 626 00:29:25,473 --> 00:29:27,083 some communications professionals. 627 00:29:27,173 --> 00:29:30,213 I surround myself with people like you, Neil, and the folks from 628 00:29:30,213 --> 00:29:31,743 the School of Engineering Comms. 629 00:29:31,973 --> 00:29:33,063 They know what they're talking about. 630 00:29:33,063 --> 00:29:34,933 They can do communications in their sleep. 631 00:29:35,033 --> 00:29:39,681 How many times they've prevented me from stepping in- Bad stuff, can't even count. 632 00:29:39,781 --> 00:29:43,311 And it makes it way more fun because they come with a totally different 633 00:29:43,311 --> 00:29:46,061 professional view of what we're doing and how it can be done. 634 00:29:46,151 --> 00:29:50,521 And so I would say be very careful about trying to do this as a solo operation. 635 00:29:50,521 --> 00:29:54,241 This really takes a village, and it's more fun as a village, and you'll 636 00:29:54,241 --> 00:29:58,131 be able to have that momentum to run the marathon and not just do seven 637 00:29:58,131 --> 00:30:00,731 great episodes and then say, "I can't do this anymore. It's killing me." 638 00:30:00,774 --> 00:30:03,174 Jennifer Lee: I always say too, be passionate about what you're talking 639 00:30:03,174 --> 00:30:06,784 about, which you are, and then it's not gonna feel like a slog. 640 00:30:06,824 --> 00:30:07,104 Russ Altman: Yeah. 641 00:30:07,104 --> 00:30:07,274 Yeah. 642 00:30:07,274 --> 00:30:08,724 And also know why you're doing it. 643 00:30:08,844 --> 00:30:09,054 Jennifer Lee: Yep. 644 00:30:09,124 --> 00:30:11,594 Russ Altman: One of the great gifts that I have, is that I am at the same 645 00:30:11,594 --> 00:30:15,384 university as Andrew Huberman , you may have heard of him, right? 646 00:30:15,894 --> 00:30:20,244 So right away from day one, there was Andrew Huberman and that there 647 00:30:20,244 --> 00:30:24,204 was me, and that I was never gonna be Andrew for a million reasons. 648 00:30:24,274 --> 00:30:26,054 I don't really wanna be Andrew Huberman. 649 00:30:26,054 --> 00:30:29,294 It's really important to know why you're doing this, to stick with your mission, 650 00:30:29,334 --> 00:30:31,384 and to understand what success looks like. 651 00:30:31,564 --> 00:30:34,414 So for example, we don't really chase topics that are very sexy 652 00:30:34,414 --> 00:30:35,784 that will get us more listeners. 653 00:30:35,854 --> 00:30:36,524 But guess what? 654 00:30:36,634 --> 00:30:40,114 There's Stanford faculty doing excellent work in unsexy areas. 655 00:30:40,124 --> 00:30:40,144 Neil McPhedran: Yeah. 656 00:30:40,254 --> 00:30:42,364 Russ Altman: And I want them to be on the show too. 657 00:30:42,504 --> 00:30:46,894 And if I don't get a zillion hits from that show, that's fine because the corpus 658 00:30:47,044 --> 00:30:53,344 is a very good representation of what's happening in academics in 2017 to 2026. 659 00:30:53,424 --> 00:30:55,518 Neil McPhedran: I think that's a really good way to put a cherry 660 00:30:55,518 --> 00:30:56,768 on top of this conversation. 661 00:30:56,768 --> 00:30:57,588 I really enjoyed it. 662 00:30:57,588 --> 00:31:00,808 Thanks so much for joining us here today on another episode. 663 00:31:00,808 --> 00:31:01,158 Russ Altman: Thank you. 664 00:31:01,168 --> 00:31:02,028 It was super fun. 665 00:31:02,038 --> 00:31:02,948 You guys are great. 666 00:31:03,038 --> 00:31:03,858 Thanks for having me. 667 00:31:03,998 --> 00:31:05,078 Jennifer Lee: We'll have to have you back. 668 00:31:05,148 --> 00:31:06,098 Russ Altman: You said it. 669 00:31:06,532 --> 00:31:07,862 Neil McPhedran: Well, Jenn, another awesome episode. 670 00:31:07,862 --> 00:31:14,422 Obviously, I've had the fortune to work with Russ for the last four years, maybe 671 00:31:14,422 --> 00:31:16,122 a little bit more than that actually now. 672 00:31:16,222 --> 00:31:20,472 And I get to work with him remotely on an ongoing basis, and see him 673 00:31:20,472 --> 00:31:23,842 a couple times a year in person when I make trips down to Stanford. 674 00:31:23,872 --> 00:31:27,192 And Russ is just an amazing guy, and I really appreciate 675 00:31:27,192 --> 00:31:29,202 everything that he shared with us. 676 00:31:29,372 --> 00:31:34,932 He really does believe what he said, shedding light on his colleagues across 677 00:31:34,942 --> 00:31:41,282 Stanford, giving them a voice and an opportunity to share their research 678 00:31:41,352 --> 00:31:42,692 and sort of the meaning behind it. 679 00:31:42,742 --> 00:31:42,922 Jennifer Lee: Yeah. 680 00:31:43,022 --> 00:31:46,806 He's just such an accomplished guy, which I feel like if you were to meet 681 00:31:46,846 --> 00:31:51,268 him or think of him beforehand, you might be intimidated, and I vibed with 682 00:31:51,287 --> 00:31:56,074 him so well because obviously- … like broadcaster, but he also agreed with 683 00:31:56,504 --> 00:31:57,704 a lot of things that I had to say. 684 00:31:57,704 --> 00:31:58,574 I felt heard. 685 00:31:58,594 --> 00:31:59,284 I liked it. 686 00:31:59,344 --> 00:31:59,604 Not 687 00:31:59,604 --> 00:32:02,114 Neil McPhedran: that- You felt heard, especially on the refusing 688 00:32:02,114 --> 00:32:04,214 to meet with the guest beforehand. 689 00:32:04,304 --> 00:32:07,018 He is quite ardent about that, so I think that's good. 690 00:32:07,018 --> 00:32:09,481 Jennifer Lee: If I wanna clarify things, when we meet with guests 691 00:32:09,481 --> 00:32:11,271 beforehand, I love doing it too. 692 00:32:11,321 --> 00:32:14,741 Neil McPhedran: And, and, and in fairness, he did talk about the larger team. 693 00:32:14,811 --> 00:32:18,221 It's not like someone on the team hasn't talked to the guest. 694 00:32:18,261 --> 00:32:22,861 There is multiple outreaches from folks on the team ahead of time to sort of help 695 00:32:22,901 --> 00:32:27,141 line things up and to make sure that, you know, they've thought through the pack 696 00:32:27,141 --> 00:32:29,621 and, and answered questions ahead of time. 697 00:32:29,621 --> 00:32:33,971 But I do think there's something really special about that, but there's something 698 00:32:33,981 --> 00:32:39,501 special about hopping on the interview and just getting into those questions 699 00:32:39,541 --> 00:32:43,441 that are in the moment, fresh and new, without sort of all the prep and 700 00:32:43,441 --> 00:32:44,831 everything sort of in the background. 701 00:32:44,851 --> 00:32:46,821 So I do agree with you about that, Jenn. 702 00:32:46,941 --> 00:32:50,711 I'm still going to do pre-interviews, and I'm still gonna line up questions 703 00:32:50,721 --> 00:32:51,601 for every one of our interviews. 704 00:32:51,851 --> 00:32:52,561 Jennifer Lee: There you go. 705 00:32:52,601 --> 00:32:53,374 I'm happy with that. 706 00:32:53,374 --> 00:32:53,597 That's 707 00:32:53,597 --> 00:32:55,081 Neil McPhedran: why we work so well together, Jenn. 708 00:32:55,091 --> 00:32:56,051 We're a good pair. 709 00:32:56,161 --> 00:32:56,211 So what? 710 00:32:56,211 --> 00:32:56,691 There you go. 711 00:32:56,721 --> 00:32:57,871 Why don't you read us out, Jenn? 712 00:32:57,941 --> 00:32:58,521 Jennifer Lee: Thank you. 713 00:32:58,571 --> 00:33:01,251 For tuning in to the Continuing Studies Podcast, a podcast for 714 00:33:01,251 --> 00:33:02,911 higher education podcasters. 715 00:33:02,911 --> 00:33:05,531 We hope you found this episode informative and inspiring. 716 00:33:05,541 --> 00:33:08,421 If you enjoyed the show, we encourage you to follow and subscribe to our 717 00:33:08,441 --> 00:33:11,601 podcast on your preferred platform, so you'll never miss an episode. 718 00:33:11,651 --> 00:33:14,681 But if you found this episode particularly valuable, please consider 719 00:33:14,681 --> 00:33:17,671 sharing it with your friends and colleagues who also might be interested 720 00:33:17,671 --> 00:33:19,201 in higher education podcasts. 721 00:33:19,431 --> 00:33:23,141 We also invite you to join your peers on HigherEdPods.com, where you 722 00:33:23,211 --> 00:33:27,131 can connect with other podcasters in the higher education space and 723 00:33:27,131 --> 00:33:28,671 learn from others in the field. 724 00:33:28,691 --> 00:33:30,651 Thank you for being part of our community. 725 00:33:30,731 --> 00:33:35,171 We look forward to continuing to bring you valuable insights and conversations 726 00:33:35,221 --> 00:33:37,331 around higher education podcasts. 727 00:33:37,331 --> 00:33:38,161 See you in the next episode.