WEBVTT NOTE This file was generated by Descript 00:00:00.000 --> 00:00:02.530 Matt: Doc Pop, welcome to the WP Minute. 00:00:03.419 --> 00:00:04.430 Doc: Thanks so much for having me. 00:00:04.430 --> 00:00:05.029 It's great to be on. 00:00:06.130 --> 00:00:08.109 Matt: I'm gonna play something real quick, intro ing you. 00:00:08.289 --> 00:00:08.649 Here we go. 00:00:09.519 --> 00:00:10.769 Hey, my name's uh, Dr. 00:00:10.769 --> 00:00:11.309 Popular. 00:00:11.339 --> 00:00:17.019 I'm a uh, yo yo er, blogger, and uh, crafster, living in San Francisco. 00:00:17.409 --> 00:00:20.679 Um, wanted to show some of my crafts because I know some of my stuff is 00:00:20.679 --> 00:00:21.749 a little confusing to photograph. 00:00:22.384 --> 00:00:28.464 Sixteen years ago, my friend, you have outpaced me by five years, your YouTube 00:00:28.485 --> 00:00:33.785 channel goes back sixteen years ago, that was a clip of Doc Pop's Craft Catalog, 00:00:33.974 --> 00:00:40.665 Cat a Vlog, I should say, two thousand and seven, you've been in the game a 00:00:40.665 --> 00:00:45.484 while, uh, and I'm happy to catch up to see what you're up to these days, uh, 00:00:45.784 --> 00:00:49.424 what made you just get, just jumping back into the time machine sixteen 00:00:49.424 --> 00:00:50.964 years ago on your YouTube channel. 00:00:51.889 --> 00:00:55.879 Always a love for video, always a love for producing this type of artwork. 00:00:55.949 --> 00:00:56.699 How did it start? 00:00:57.580 --> 00:01:00.530 Doc: Sharing stuff has always been something I've been passionate about, 00:01:00.539 --> 00:01:04.339 not just my work, like being able to reach out to other artists and talk 00:01:04.339 --> 00:01:05.259 to them about what they're doing. 00:01:05.549 --> 00:01:08.279 So like, this all comes from zine culture. 00:01:08.279 --> 00:01:09.410 Do you, do you know zines Matt? 00:01:09.570 --> 00:01:09.970 Matt: I do. 00:01:10.120 --> 00:01:10.490 I do. 00:01:10.500 --> 00:01:13.310 Doc: So, uh, you know, I grew up in a small town in Tennessee, 00:01:13.350 --> 00:01:16.780 Lewisburg, Tennessee, hours out to Nashville and in the nineties. 00:01:16.945 --> 00:01:20.255 Grunge music has taken off and I've got no way to line, you know, learn about 00:01:20.255 --> 00:01:21.375 what's happening and stuff like that. 00:01:21.615 --> 00:01:22.954 And I heard about this thing called zines. 00:01:22.954 --> 00:01:26.375 And so you started kind of documenting your local bands, documenting the music 00:01:26.375 --> 00:01:30.764 you're making and the artists around you going to, to Kinko's printing them 00:01:30.764 --> 00:01:33.924 up, sending them out to, you know, Olympia, Washington, and then, you know, 00:01:33.924 --> 00:01:35.894 folks at Olympia send you a bunch back. 00:01:35.895 --> 00:01:36.095 Right. 00:01:36.105 --> 00:01:39.615 And that, that kind of communication was what got me really 00:01:39.615 --> 00:01:40.995 interested in this whole world. 00:01:40.995 --> 00:01:45.479 And blogging was just, to me, it was like an, Electronic version of 00:01:45.479 --> 00:01:49.559 a zine and then video was just like, okay, this is just the next thing. 00:01:49.559 --> 00:01:53.189 So like all of this passion I have for like social media really comes 00:01:53.190 --> 00:01:58.139 back to just making stuff and sharing it with people, being able to, you 00:01:58.139 --> 00:02:02.320 know, reach out directly to someone I admire and ask them a question. 00:02:02.519 --> 00:02:05.929 And when you have like a zine or you have a camera, it gives you that excuse. 00:02:05.929 --> 00:02:06.820 It gives you that access. 00:02:06.820 --> 00:02:08.789 You know, I wouldn't, I wouldn't normally walk up to this guy and 00:02:08.789 --> 00:02:10.340 just be like, I love your art. 00:02:10.390 --> 00:02:12.280 What type of brush do you use or something? 00:02:12.280 --> 00:02:12.480 Right. 00:02:12.480 --> 00:02:15.520 With what guitar are using or whatever, you know, kind of lame question like that. 00:02:15.750 --> 00:02:18.549 But you got that camera there and all of a sudden there's that permission and 00:02:18.549 --> 00:02:22.309 that kind of like ability to just have this direct conversation with someone you 00:02:22.310 --> 00:02:23.810 admire and be able to learn with them. 00:02:24.060 --> 00:02:25.070 And then you're not going to hoard that. 00:02:25.070 --> 00:02:29.760 Obviously your, your goal isn't to, my goal isn't to get lots of views. 00:02:29.760 --> 00:02:32.900 It's to get, you know, whoever needs to see it, get them a chance to see it, you 00:02:32.900 --> 00:02:34.270 know, make it as easy for them to see it. 00:02:34.290 --> 00:02:45.719 Silence. 00:02:45.720 --> 00:02:49.590 Matt: is and how you got this project and why you're super passionate about it. 00:02:50.030 --> 00:02:56.465 Um, but I have a question about content creation and sort of your, Sort of view on 00:02:56.475 --> 00:03:00.445 how it's evolved again going back 16 years ago on your YouTube channel to where? 00:03:00.795 --> 00:03:04.494 Social media is today where short form content is today. 00:03:04.885 --> 00:03:10.665 I'll frame it for you I'm not a fan of the tick tocks in the reels in the stuff that 00:03:10.665 --> 00:03:15.195 disappears in 24 hours I like Podcasting. 00:03:15.655 --> 00:03:17.124 I like long form video. 00:03:17.275 --> 00:03:21.614 I like creating the stuff that is much more everlasting, deeper connection, 00:03:21.614 --> 00:03:25.144 but it's not the stuff that people are, at least that I'm told this is 00:03:25.144 --> 00:03:26.614 the stuff that people are tuning into. 00:03:26.614 --> 00:03:28.804 Like people are saying, Oh, it's got to be tick tock. 00:03:28.804 --> 00:03:29.744 It's got to be Instagram. 00:03:29.754 --> 00:03:30.804 You got to do these short things. 00:03:31.275 --> 00:03:34.274 What's your thoughts on, on content creation? 00:03:34.274 --> 00:03:38.494 Like what, what type of content is important to you? 00:03:38.494 --> 00:03:40.684 And what are you more, most passionate about creating? 00:03:41.735 --> 00:03:46.055 Doc: So as the type of social media has changed throughout the years and 00:03:46.055 --> 00:03:49.634 the way people use it has changed, I have not really changed that much. 00:03:49.644 --> 00:03:53.665 My interest has always been, I just want to document this because 00:03:53.675 --> 00:03:56.555 I think it's cool and I want to show it in the best way I can. 00:03:56.555 --> 00:04:00.805 Um, if your goal is to make a living through social media, which is not, 00:04:00.855 --> 00:04:04.165 not what I'm doing and, and man, that sounds like a stressful gig. 00:04:04.465 --> 00:04:06.035 Uh, but if your goal is that. 00:04:06.375 --> 00:04:09.515 Then, you know, yeah, I think you have to like follow like you, you do need 00:04:09.524 --> 00:04:13.495 to, uh, if you're on Tik Tok, you need to post like three times a week and 00:04:13.505 --> 00:04:14.995 do one live stream a week or whatever. 00:04:14.995 --> 00:04:18.294 Like there's these kind of formulas that are tried and true, but if 00:04:18.294 --> 00:04:22.794 that's not your goal is, you know, making money exclusively from that, 00:04:23.145 --> 00:04:24.474 I just say, do what's fun for you. 00:04:24.494 --> 00:04:25.914 So if Tik Tok's not fun for you. 00:04:26.434 --> 00:04:30.094 I don't recommend trying to get on it because like you feel obligated to. 00:04:30.544 --> 00:04:34.255 Um, for, for me, I've really liked watching stuff on YouTube. 00:04:34.265 --> 00:04:38.034 So I kind of grok YouTube and that's where, that's where I 00:04:38.034 --> 00:04:41.694 kind of live or my content lives and I don't push myself to do. 00:04:41.989 --> 00:04:45.330 You know, whatever the trend is, uh, and man, those trends have 00:04:45.330 --> 00:04:49.669 changed because I remember, uh, in the early days, it was like, if you 00:04:49.669 --> 00:04:51.869 were longer than three minutes, no one's going to watch your video. 00:04:51.869 --> 00:04:53.200 That's crazy long for the internet. 00:04:53.579 --> 00:04:58.149 And, you know, I watched a four hour documentary on YouTube. 00:04:59.000 --> 00:05:02.030 About Eve online and all the rules are changed. 00:05:02.039 --> 00:05:04.919 Like all the videos that are getting shown to me are at least an hour long now. 00:05:05.250 --> 00:05:08.479 So I'm not trying to adapt to that or whatever. 00:05:08.490 --> 00:05:11.330 Whatever YouTube suddenly decides is their new priority. 00:05:11.330 --> 00:05:12.599 And they're going to push things to make that. 00:05:13.110 --> 00:05:16.929 And you know, I'm not getting millions of views on all a few of 00:05:16.929 --> 00:05:20.542 mine have probably not that craft video from, from that's probably 00:05:20.542 --> 00:05:22.682 comfortably sitting at like 15 views. 00:05:22.682 --> 00:05:23.751 Oh, 4, 000. 00:05:23.751 --> 00:05:24.108 Okay. 00:05:24.108 --> 00:05:29.254 Uh, But, uh, you know, it's, it's, for me, it's nice when things do get a lot 00:05:29.254 --> 00:05:32.314 of views and it's a little bit like I just make a lot of content and so I'm 00:05:32.314 --> 00:05:34.934 buying a lot of lottery tickets and every now and then one of those tickets will 00:05:34.944 --> 00:05:36.244 scratch off and it'll do really well. 00:05:36.254 --> 00:05:36.994 And that feels good. 00:05:37.514 --> 00:05:42.234 But because there's no income associated for me, it's just about making that 00:05:42.234 --> 00:05:46.194 stuff and being able to open those doors and have opportunities if, you know, 00:05:46.194 --> 00:05:50.719 for, for business wise, Um, you know, I, I focus a little bit more on this 00:05:50.719 --> 00:05:55.490 interview might help, um, get people to come visit my site and buy something or 00:05:55.500 --> 00:05:58.570 might help get my foot in the door at a job I'm looking at or something like that. 00:05:58.599 --> 00:06:02.289 So that's, that's a little bit where I'm going from and the, the, the numbers 00:06:02.799 --> 00:06:05.849 that's, if, if that's a thing you want to get into, you definitely need to 00:06:05.959 --> 00:06:07.729 follow the rules and do all that stuff. 00:06:07.729 --> 00:06:11.030 There's no way we're working around it, but I just, you know, comfortably 00:06:11.030 --> 00:06:14.140 decided I'm just going to make stuff that makes me happy and try 00:06:14.140 --> 00:06:15.480 to be as productive as possible. 00:06:16.049 --> 00:06:17.799 And, uh, it's been, you know, it's been fun. 00:06:17.819 --> 00:06:18.819 That's why I haven't burned out. 00:06:18.819 --> 00:06:20.309 I think over 16 years. 00:06:21.444 --> 00:06:23.905 Matt: Half of your title is professional yo yo er, the other half 00:06:23.905 --> 00:06:25.724 is freelance WordPress content creator. 00:06:25.794 --> 00:06:31.685 I think folks in the audience, uh, know you for the 8 years at Torque? 00:06:32.164 --> 00:06:33.454 Mag, I think roughly? 00:06:33.905 --> 00:06:36.335 Um, something around, was it 8 years roughly? 00:06:36.780 --> 00:06:39.749 Doc: It was about, it was just like one month, shy of 10 years. 00:06:39.905 --> 00:06:40.374 Matt: 10 years. 00:06:40.414 --> 00:06:40.724 Yep. 00:06:40.844 --> 00:06:42.804 Uh, so a lot of folks know you, know you from that. 00:06:42.814 --> 00:06:43.405 What, what? 00:06:43.405 --> 00:06:47.954 Uh, Did, did you find WordPress and then you found Torque? 00:06:47.954 --> 00:06:50.194 Or did you find Torque and then WordPress? 00:06:50.195 --> 00:06:53.704 How did, how did your love and passion for all things WordPress come about? 00:06:54.819 --> 00:06:59.919 Doc: So I mentioned that I love blogging, and so of course I ended 00:06:59.919 --> 00:07:02.169 up on WordPress from Blogger. 00:07:02.169 --> 00:07:06.999 I think I was, uh, first it was like some MSN uh, Microsoft kind of blogging 00:07:07.004 --> 00:07:11.169 platform that predates blogger, and then there was Blogger, and then 00:07:11.169 --> 00:07:13.119 WordPress had that really easy tool to. 00:07:13.359 --> 00:07:17.780 To move your content off a blocker and, and Google was really cool about, uh, 00:07:18.039 --> 00:07:21.469 you know, delivering that in a friendly way and not, not hold porting it. 00:07:21.549 --> 00:07:23.950 And due to that, like, yeah. 00:07:24.969 --> 00:07:28.119 Uh, but, but due to that, I was, it was very easy to get onto 00:07:28.119 --> 00:07:31.439 WordPress and my friend, Scott Beal, who owns laughing squid. 00:07:31.650 --> 00:07:34.460 com, he, uh, was a San Franciscan at the time, very 00:07:34.469 --> 00:07:36.060 interconnected with our art scene. 00:07:36.250 --> 00:07:37.539 And he was just hooking up artists. 00:07:37.549 --> 00:07:41.294 You know, if you were like doing events in the city or doing stuff, Uh, whether 00:07:41.294 --> 00:07:45.074 it was burning man related or, or, you know, just local pranks or whatever, he 00:07:45.074 --> 00:07:46.414 would hook you up with, with hosting. 00:07:46.714 --> 00:07:47.574 So that's how I got on there. 00:07:47.594 --> 00:07:50.024 And it wasn't like a passion for WordPress. 00:07:50.064 --> 00:07:51.354 It was definitely one of those things. 00:07:51.354 --> 00:07:53.024 It's like a tool I use and I like it. 00:07:53.064 --> 00:07:53.974 And there's no complaints. 00:07:53.974 --> 00:07:56.204 If somebody asked what, what should they use? 00:07:56.204 --> 00:07:57.924 I'd be like, Oh, you should definitely use this. 00:07:58.074 --> 00:08:02.684 And, um, it was because of making content, a friend of mine who works 00:08:02.684 --> 00:08:06.834 at WP Engine saw the videos I was making, knew that I, you know, wasn't, 00:08:07.094 --> 00:08:09.854 I wasn't like a WordPress advocate, but I loved using the platform. 00:08:09.854 --> 00:08:11.905 And he was like, how would you feel about doing this? 00:08:11.965 --> 00:08:15.614 And that was a really fun gig, you know, 10 years of interviewing people 00:08:15.615 --> 00:08:16.694 about WordPress is really cool. 00:08:16.715 --> 00:08:32.304 Um, 00:08:32.380 --> 00:08:33.525 Matt: we all, Like, love it. 00:08:33.544 --> 00:08:38.444 We all use it, but we know it's not the best for just this one thing 00:08:38.444 --> 00:08:41.204 that I think it's great for blogging, but I'm sure there are some things 00:08:41.204 --> 00:08:43.344 that can can improve the experience. 00:08:43.344 --> 00:08:47.785 But what's happening these days in the ethos of WordPress 00:08:47.795 --> 00:08:49.474 is just a lot of frustration. 00:08:49.484 --> 00:08:52.064 Like we got a lot of newbies coming in, which is great. 00:08:52.435 --> 00:08:55.755 Problem is, they're like, Ah, this is not that good for building websites. 00:08:56.035 --> 00:08:58.874 Then we have a lot of developers who've I've been here for years going, 00:08:58.874 --> 00:09:00.234 listen, we're trying to make it better. 00:09:00.234 --> 00:09:02.185 Yet you have to, to, to bear with us. 00:09:02.574 --> 00:09:04.555 How did that empathy evolve? 00:09:04.854 --> 00:09:08.314 If, if at anything, if you can illustrate that for us, for both camps, cause you 00:09:08.314 --> 00:09:13.114 were here for, you know, uh, a while representing, uh, one of the longest 00:09:13.114 --> 00:09:16.744 standing WordPress hosting company brands through torque, you probably heard from 00:09:16.745 --> 00:09:19.755 both camps, end users, advanced users. 00:09:19.984 --> 00:09:21.925 How did you, how did that evolve for you? 00:09:21.925 --> 00:09:24.544 If, if at anything, you have a different perspective for beginners 00:09:24.545 --> 00:09:25.914 and more advanced folks these days. 00:09:27.434 --> 00:09:31.894 Doc: It, it started off as a way that this is just a tool I like, and if I 00:09:31.915 --> 00:09:36.084 hired a developer, They might be very concerned about the politics behind it. 00:09:36.084 --> 00:09:38.985 But I was, you know, very kind of away from that. 00:09:38.985 --> 00:09:42.745 I was just a user who occasionally hired someone every three years to, you know, 00:09:42.755 --> 00:09:44.205 update my site or something like that. 00:09:44.614 --> 00:09:47.444 And I never really dived into it too much other than just being 00:09:47.444 --> 00:09:50.475 like, man, this sure is, um, I guess ostensible would be the word. 00:09:50.485 --> 00:09:55.295 Like as a, uh, even someone who does not do any coding at all. 00:09:55.550 --> 00:09:59.120 Still, it's very easy to, I wish there was a plugin for this. 00:09:59.120 --> 00:10:01.089 Well, let me do a quick search and there's three of them, right? 00:10:01.089 --> 00:10:02.920 So that's the beautiful thing that's always been around 00:10:03.189 --> 00:10:04.479 when I started documenting it. 00:10:04.954 --> 00:10:08.625 It definitely felt like in the beginning I was filled with a 00:10:08.625 --> 00:10:10.865 sense of just huge optimism. 00:10:11.234 --> 00:10:15.555 And then, um, somewhere along the line, I became, I guess, so close 00:10:15.555 --> 00:10:18.844 to it that I actually heard about the, the, the discourse, right. 00:10:19.154 --> 00:10:21.924 You know, the quote unquote discourse and like, you know, 00:10:21.924 --> 00:10:22.954 dramas and stuff like that. 00:10:22.954 --> 00:10:24.444 And that was kind of a bummer. 00:10:24.665 --> 00:10:27.665 And it's hard for me now to kind of think about what. 00:10:28.040 --> 00:10:32.060 Perspective new users would have because there's been that major change with with 00:10:32.119 --> 00:10:35.639 Gutenberg, which I think is probably a good term You know good change for users 00:10:36.109 --> 00:10:41.000 um I can't help but to think about like, you know, all the behind the scenes 00:10:41.010 --> 00:10:46.709 stuff I guess when it comes down to it if someone were to come to me now and be 00:10:46.709 --> 00:10:48.810 like, what should I use for for blogging? 00:10:49.160 --> 00:10:52.680 it's not quite as simple as it used to be but not really because I have that 00:10:52.878 --> 00:10:58.094 insider knowledge or because WordPress has even changed that much You know, for some 00:10:58.094 --> 00:11:03.824 people, Wix is just kind of maybe, uh, a good, you know, all they want to do is 00:11:03.824 --> 00:11:06.604 create something for like, um, you know, a birthday party or something they're 00:11:06.604 --> 00:11:08.844 doing for one weekend and then they're going to get rid of it or whatever. 00:11:09.234 --> 00:11:13.604 And that's where, that's where I actually come kind of confused is when people these 00:11:13.627 --> 00:11:16.134 days ask me, what, what should I be using? 00:11:16.134 --> 00:11:17.604 What, you know, where should I be hosting or whatever? 00:11:17.604 --> 00:11:19.725 And I'm like, Oh, there's a whole, whole first off, we're going to pick 00:11:19.725 --> 00:11:22.844 out which CMS you want to be on and how much changes you want to be. 00:11:22.844 --> 00:11:24.945 Or if you just want something kind of, uh, Ready to go. 00:11:24.945 --> 00:11:27.265 Do you want a single landing page or what? 00:11:27.615 --> 00:11:30.885 And I guess that's good to have that problem where there's so many things. 00:11:31.095 --> 00:11:35.225 I wouldn't avoid recommending WordPress because of my time kind of in there. 00:11:35.745 --> 00:11:38.805 Uh, but, but yeah, it is, it is hard at this point. 00:11:38.834 --> 00:11:42.185 Sometimes to figure out like, maybe it's not perfect for everyone. 00:11:42.615 --> 00:11:45.704 Um, it's, it's complex. 00:11:46.425 --> 00:11:50.235 Matt: how important is open source to you as a user of WordPress? 00:11:51.104 --> 00:11:55.454 Doc: It's, it's very important for me because of those, the, the plugins 00:11:55.454 --> 00:11:59.524 that I was talking about, the ability, ability to get themes for, for a lot of 00:11:59.524 --> 00:12:04.055 folks, it's important just for costs, you know, getting, uh, free themes or free 00:12:04.064 --> 00:12:06.104 plugins is, is a huge priority for them. 00:12:06.104 --> 00:12:08.295 Hosting is sometimes pretty expensive. 00:12:08.295 --> 00:12:13.155 So anywhere where you can save is nice, but, uh, as a believer in the 00:12:13.155 --> 00:12:15.425 open web, it's very important for me. 00:12:15.454 --> 00:12:19.644 I think, um, That's, that's a harder thing to communicate maybe to someone who just 00:12:19.644 --> 00:12:23.744 wants to create a website for a weekend, but for me personally, I try my best to 00:12:23.744 --> 00:12:28.364 support things that are open protocols that can help improve other things, you 00:12:28.364 --> 00:12:31.985 know, make the web better, not just, not just kind of, uh, lock people in. 00:12:32.340 --> 00:12:32.370 Okay. 00:12:33.245 --> 00:12:37.574 Matt: We're going to talk about that, uh, that Fediverse stuff, uh, in a moment. 00:12:37.675 --> 00:12:44.500 Uh, I, I want to know how you, If at all, and listen, I, I don't cause I don't know 00:12:44.500 --> 00:12:47.290 how myself, but how do you relay that? 00:12:47.300 --> 00:12:51.990 Do you try to relay that importance to maybe not friends and family, but maybe 00:12:51.990 --> 00:12:57.519 you have colleagues that are trying to decide between WordPress and in, in Wix. 00:12:57.529 --> 00:13:02.604 And, and do you try to, You know, you should make the nod to open 00:13:02.604 --> 00:13:05.205 source, even if it's a little bit more difficult to get started with 00:13:05.205 --> 00:13:09.305 WordPress, you should care about open source, uh, you know, for the open web. 00:13:09.715 --> 00:13:13.404 Do you try to make that case with the average user or do you just, nah, I'm 00:13:13.404 --> 00:13:15.874 not going to try to go down that rabbit hole, they're still trying to figure out 00:13:15.874 --> 00:13:17.364 how to, you know, design their website. 00:13:17.365 --> 00:13:22.024 Yes. 00:13:22.509 --> 00:13:24.579 Doc: we all know we should eat healthier, right? 00:13:24.759 --> 00:13:27.129 Like, no one needs to tell us, like, this is a thing you should be doing. 00:13:27.139 --> 00:13:28.300 You shouldn't be eating that junk food. 00:13:28.659 --> 00:13:34.249 And it's maybe a better case to try to say, this is better because I mean, 00:13:34.249 --> 00:13:38.455 because everyone knows, like, uh, these big Companies are going to get bigger 00:13:38.455 --> 00:13:40.255 and eventually you'll kind of regret it. 00:13:40.255 --> 00:13:43.295 But still, even myself, like I'm, I'm not running Linux. 00:13:43.345 --> 00:13:46.535 Uh, I'm, you know, I'm, I'm on Chrome right now. 00:13:46.535 --> 00:13:47.294 Chrome browser. 00:13:47.595 --> 00:13:50.365 I, I know that I've kind of given up some stuff and I try 00:13:50.365 --> 00:13:51.515 to fight the battles that I can. 00:13:51.905 --> 00:13:55.755 But I, I'm not going to try to make an argument to someone explaining open source 00:13:55.935 --> 00:13:59.569 to someone who, you know, is probably never even going to be Contributing to it. 00:13:59.579 --> 00:14:00.800 They're just going to be an end user. 00:14:01.160 --> 00:14:01.569 Instead. 00:14:01.569 --> 00:14:03.240 I'm just going to try to sell them on those features. 00:14:03.280 --> 00:14:07.189 I'm going to try to be like, this is something that if, if this company 00:14:07.189 --> 00:14:10.380 goes away overnight, it should be pretty easy to find someone. 00:14:10.389 --> 00:14:12.790 You might not be able to do it, but to find someone who can help you get it 00:14:12.790 --> 00:14:14.260 running somewhere else or port it over. 00:14:14.549 --> 00:14:16.864 And you can't say that about this other company. 00:14:17.065 --> 00:14:18.615 That's, that's the way I think about it. 00:14:18.615 --> 00:14:24.125 I don't go for, uh, open sources, you know, the best thing to do morally or, 00:14:24.145 --> 00:14:26.915 or anything like that, if, if they're not a developer and they're not going 00:14:26.915 --> 00:14:30.494 to be actually kind of going in under the hood, I, I just try to make the 00:14:30.494 --> 00:14:33.835 cases for the things that are awesome, which is usually focusing on the free 00:14:33.844 --> 00:14:39.005 plugins or the usually free plugins and, um, the, the flexibility that you have. 00:14:39.400 --> 00:14:42.550 And that safety, you know, like I said, as someone who's been making content 00:14:42.550 --> 00:14:46.765 for, I guess, uh, since zines, but like, uh, making content on YouTube 00:14:46.765 --> 00:14:50.649 for 16 years, if, if YouTube goes away overnight, man, all this stuff's 00:14:50.650 --> 00:14:51.844 kind of gone and it's a bummer. 00:14:52.189 --> 00:14:54.829 So I'm, I'm definitely thinking at this point, what's going to be the thing that 00:14:54.939 --> 00:14:59.219 if this goes away, cause I've seen so many things come and go, you know, and so I try 00:14:59.219 --> 00:15:03.550 to kind of share that with people, like this is a better longterm bet for you. 00:15:03.960 --> 00:15:06.110 And some people don't, don't think longterm, you know, they're 00:15:06.110 --> 00:15:08.110 just trying to get this thing up for, you know, right now. 00:15:08.640 --> 00:15:12.319 And, uh, I don't try to win them over with, you know, arguments about 00:15:12.319 --> 00:15:13.419 open source or anything like that. 00:15:13.810 --> 00:15:18.648 Yeah. 00:15:18.985 --> 00:15:23.204 Matt: you know, I love WordPress for the open source, uh, angle of it, right? 00:15:23.204 --> 00:15:27.704 It's roots in open source, uh, one for the end user as this is your thing. 00:15:27.704 --> 00:15:29.704 You can move it around, you can bring it to different web hosts. 00:15:29.704 --> 00:15:32.784 You're not, you're not locked into just one. 00:15:33.114 --> 00:15:34.265 Um, so I love that. 00:15:34.275 --> 00:15:36.835 I love too that it's a community of folks. 00:15:36.835 --> 00:15:40.885 And even if the overall direction of the open source project isn't there. 00:15:41.200 --> 00:15:43.080 Led in a democratic way. 00:15:43.520 --> 00:15:46.900 You still have, you know, a voice and vote to do things. 00:15:46.900 --> 00:15:48.510 Like I just had a little feature added to WordPress 6. 00:15:48.510 --> 00:15:52.620 6 as just a, Hey, I'm gonna raise my hand and say, this should be added. 00:15:52.630 --> 00:15:53.389 It was added. 00:15:53.390 --> 00:15:55.400 And I got credit to, I was like, this is pretty cool. 00:15:56.380 --> 00:15:58.539 Um, so like, I like it for that. 00:15:58.539 --> 00:16:00.204 And then I say the open web too. 00:16:01.575 --> 00:16:04.975 But I'm not a like, you know, like you said, like I used to run Linux, you 00:16:04.975 --> 00:16:08.485 know, when I was younger and I had time to like mess around and break things. 00:16:08.485 --> 00:16:09.865 And okay, I got to fix my computer now. 00:16:10.115 --> 00:16:11.155 I don't do that anymore. 00:16:11.395 --> 00:16:11.575 Right? 00:16:11.605 --> 00:16:12.344 I run Mac. 00:16:12.995 --> 00:16:14.964 I use brave, but I run Mac and I run an iPhone. 00:16:15.894 --> 00:16:19.695 There's diehard open source people who are using like the graphene phone. 00:16:19.695 --> 00:16:20.625 They're running Linux. 00:16:20.625 --> 00:16:21.405 They're not touching anything. 00:16:22.435 --> 00:16:25.675 pixels or cookies ever come near their computer. 00:16:26.055 --> 00:16:32.135 Um, that's not me, but I love the open web for, for the mere fact 00:16:32.144 --> 00:16:33.955 that you, you, you can have choice. 00:16:34.460 --> 00:16:37.960 When you don't like this, this path anymore, you at least 00:16:37.970 --> 00:16:39.740 have this other path, right? 00:16:40.100 --> 00:16:42.760 And that you could go down and it might not be as good. 00:16:42.760 --> 00:16:47.779 It might not be as sexy or fast or have all the crazy algorithms, but it's there, 00:16:47.780 --> 00:16:49.900 it's opening and you have access to it. 00:16:49.940 --> 00:16:55.780 And that's about as far as I go with, you know, my understanding of, of the 00:16:55.780 --> 00:16:57.560 open web and what's great about it. 00:16:57.890 --> 00:17:01.310 Um, Does the open web mean anything else to you? 00:17:01.310 --> 00:17:03.949 Like, organizations, you know, big corporations, you 00:17:03.949 --> 00:17:04.849 know, controlling the web. 00:17:04.860 --> 00:17:05.550 That's one thing. 00:17:05.560 --> 00:17:09.440 Is there anything else about the open web that, that really you're passionate 00:17:09.440 --> 00:17:10.770 about or that you really like about it? 00:17:11.669 --> 00:17:13.069 Doc: We, you mentioned the big corporations. 00:17:13.069 --> 00:17:16.959 It is interesting that, that sometimes we go deeper and deeper into open 00:17:16.959 --> 00:17:20.979 web stuff to the point where one company maybe kind of dominates it. 00:17:20.979 --> 00:17:24.389 And the, you know, the example that comes up for me is, is Google and Gmail. 00:17:24.390 --> 00:17:30.769 Uh, email is this perfect example of like an open federated system where 00:17:30.769 --> 00:17:32.209 anybody can communicate with anyone. 00:17:32.570 --> 00:17:35.929 But if you talk to someone these days, Google has gotten so good at 00:17:35.929 --> 00:17:38.769 it that they're basically email, like Gmail is basically email. 00:17:39.050 --> 00:17:42.969 And if anybody these days try setting up an email server, they, they've learned 00:17:42.969 --> 00:17:45.830 the hard way that Google doesn't want them communicating with their people. 00:17:45.839 --> 00:17:47.510 Like I keep hearing from folks like that. 00:17:47.980 --> 00:17:51.199 So that, that, that's the interesting thing to me is, is. 00:17:51.435 --> 00:17:54.804 When things go really well and they seem to be going perfect and this 00:17:54.955 --> 00:17:58.154 technology is catching on and we've got like all this money coming in to 00:17:58.154 --> 00:18:01.245 pay developers to make it even better from, from these big corporations and 00:18:01.245 --> 00:18:03.384 then after a certain while, you're like, Oh wait, we're just in another 00:18:03.384 --> 00:18:06.944 silo by accident, you know, and that's, that's such a bummer when that happens. 00:18:06.945 --> 00:18:08.939 Yeah. 00:18:09.955 --> 00:18:12.554 Matt: You know, I don't know how closely you follow the, the, the 00:18:12.565 --> 00:18:16.544 podcasting space, like the, the actual industry news of, of things. 00:18:17.034 --> 00:18:18.544 Um, I follow it pretty closely. 00:18:18.544 --> 00:18:21.269 There's a whole open source movement called podcasting 2. 00:18:21.269 --> 00:18:21.294 0. 00:18:21.294 --> 00:18:25.294 It's like WordPress for the RSS feed of podcasts, right? 00:18:25.294 --> 00:18:28.464 They enhance the RSS feed, they make it better, et cetera, et cetera. 00:18:28.464 --> 00:18:30.034 And they're, you know, they're always advocating for other 00:18:30.044 --> 00:18:31.524 apps to adopt this technology. 00:18:31.524 --> 00:18:34.425 Just like, uh, if WordPress was advocating for another web host to. 00:18:34.685 --> 00:18:36.754 You know, use WordPress on their hosting platform. 00:18:37.465 --> 00:18:41.395 And the big thing in podcasting these days, because, you know, 00:18:41.395 --> 00:18:47.314 Spotify was supposed to come in and in their words, save podcasting. 00:18:47.334 --> 00:18:50.674 But they were, they were just trying to build a walled garden around acquiring 00:18:50.675 --> 00:18:54.395 shows and having premium features, but all in the Spotify app, they've 00:18:54.395 --> 00:18:59.975 since given up that they given up those reins in their most, um, figurehead 00:18:59.975 --> 00:19:02.985 of podcasting, let's say Joe Rogan, because it is the biggest show. 00:19:03.134 --> 00:19:05.404 They just now went to open publishing. 00:19:05.404 --> 00:19:08.844 He's back on all the airwaves since the start of the, of the new year. 00:19:08.844 --> 00:19:10.465 So it looks like they've sort of given up. 00:19:10.770 --> 00:19:12.300 That, uh, which is good. 00:19:12.310 --> 00:19:14.949 Like it's a good thing that they've given up trying to reign 00:19:15.000 --> 00:19:16.989 RSS feeds into their own platform. 00:19:17.370 --> 00:19:21.929 But now YouTube is the one that everyone is looking at as like the savior of 00:19:21.929 --> 00:19:25.829 podcasting because people are going there for search and discover it. 00:19:25.829 --> 00:19:27.124 And don't you want that? 00:19:27.125 --> 00:19:28.134 You know, Mrs. 00:19:28.165 --> 00:19:31.534 Podcaster, don't you want that search and discoverability for your show? 00:19:31.534 --> 00:19:32.945 Cause no one else is giving it to you. 00:19:33.225 --> 00:19:34.094 And everyone's going, yes. 00:19:34.094 --> 00:19:36.864 And now look at the ad revenue is going up and the viewership is going 00:19:36.864 --> 00:19:38.654 up and you must have a YouTube channel. 00:19:38.705 --> 00:19:41.064 If you want a successful podcast, it's like, Whoa, Whoa. 00:19:41.485 --> 00:19:44.648 It's all going to, what have we not learned our lesson 18 00:19:44.684 --> 00:19:46.235 times over with this stuff. 00:19:46.485 --> 00:19:48.044 It's just going to live on YouTube. 00:19:48.074 --> 00:19:53.094 And what has Google shown us time and time again, they keep getting rid of 00:19:53.105 --> 00:19:55.465 things, including their own podcast app. 00:19:55.850 --> 00:20:01.600 Which they just end of life on all Android devices as of last month It's just like 00:20:01.840 --> 00:20:04.020 what why are we saying these things? 00:20:04.029 --> 00:20:06.379 These corporations are just for one thing. 00:20:06.629 --> 00:20:07.929 It's for profit. 00:20:08.009 --> 00:20:12.629 It's for revenue It's for their ad network, and it's never the creator And 00:20:12.629 --> 00:20:17.110 I'm sure from your YouTube experience if you have ad sense on your your channel 00:20:17.469 --> 00:20:23.545 mine has been like cut by more than 60 percent in terms of You Ad revenue coming 00:20:23.545 --> 00:20:25.254 in over the last four or five years. 00:20:25.284 --> 00:20:29.355 It just keeps getting less and less and we keep losing out 00:20:29.945 --> 00:20:31.164 It's a frustrating experience. 00:20:31.164 --> 00:20:34.004 I don't have a direct question there, but just more framing these 00:20:34.014 --> 00:20:38.344 frustrations of giving all your content to one Silo, it's very difficult 00:20:40.089 --> 00:20:43.829 Doc: You, um, I just want to mention you, you, you stumbled upon one of my favorite 00:20:43.829 --> 00:20:45.329 things in the world, which is RSS. 00:20:45.850 --> 00:20:50.219 Uh, there have been several open protocols on the web that I've benefited from as 00:20:50.219 --> 00:20:54.639 a, as a web user, but I never really was aware of the idea of an open protocol 00:20:54.659 --> 00:20:58.799 until RSS, maybe because it sounded kind of complex, but this ability to 00:20:58.850 --> 00:21:02.299 not have to go and check someone's site every day, or, you know, someone posts 00:21:02.309 --> 00:21:06.120 once a year, right back in 2007 or 2008, you don't have to like remember 00:21:06.120 --> 00:21:07.329 sites and see if they've updated. 00:21:07.649 --> 00:21:10.219 So the ability to just kind of like set up this RSS feed, 00:21:10.219 --> 00:21:12.189 which Google had an amazing. 00:21:12.405 --> 00:21:13.985 Uh, feed reader called Google Reader. 00:21:14.404 --> 00:21:17.554 And so all you had to do is just go to the site, grab the RSS, put it in, 00:21:17.554 --> 00:21:21.105 and then you just check Google reader every day, which was, uh, you, you know, 00:21:21.105 --> 00:21:22.665 you could use any other RSS reader. 00:21:22.665 --> 00:21:23.514 That's the one that we use. 00:21:23.844 --> 00:21:29.394 And that was to me, the, the beginning of this walls coming down, you know, 00:21:29.394 --> 00:21:33.964 I thought in 2008, we were going to be, uh, I thought Facebook's doomed. 00:21:34.094 --> 00:21:36.235 Um, I didn't mean to have to go to Facebook because back then 00:21:36.475 --> 00:21:39.034 you could actually get an RSS of someone's Facebook page. 00:21:39.045 --> 00:21:39.884 So even Facebook. 00:21:40.165 --> 00:21:43.835 You could just scrape their page and, you know, oh my God, 00:21:43.895 --> 00:21:45.045 podcasts are powered by RSS. 00:21:45.435 --> 00:21:47.245 Everybody's using RSS and they don't even know it. 00:21:47.245 --> 00:21:47.455 Right. 00:21:47.725 --> 00:21:52.145 Of course, there's other open protocols like HTML or IMAP or, you know, whatever. 00:21:52.145 --> 00:21:55.074 There's other ones that we all use, but it wasn't really until RSS that 00:21:55.074 --> 00:21:57.424 I realized that if someone builds a standard and we get around the 00:21:57.424 --> 00:21:59.625 standard, this magical stuff can happen. 00:22:00.324 --> 00:22:03.794 But then, uh, you know, we talked about Gmail kind of becoming the big thing. 00:22:03.794 --> 00:22:07.884 And then, and then now it's basically a silo when Google reader was killed 00:22:08.034 --> 00:22:11.164 for Google plus, which was also killed and replaced with something else. 00:22:11.164 --> 00:22:11.424 Who knows? 00:22:11.424 --> 00:22:11.544 Right. 00:22:11.545 --> 00:22:16.604 But when Google reader was killed, all of a sudden RSS was killed too, because 00:22:16.644 --> 00:22:20.324 everyone, you could have used anything and there was lots of great alternatives. 00:22:20.324 --> 00:22:23.125 There still are, I use them, but for the most part. 00:22:23.549 --> 00:22:27.309 When that, when that big easy tool went away, everyone just gave up on it. 00:22:27.619 --> 00:22:30.379 And we, you know, kind of built up silos again and it's happening again. 00:22:30.379 --> 00:22:31.529 It's, it's this cycle. 00:22:31.529 --> 00:22:32.489 I hate it, Matt. 00:22:32.529 --> 00:22:35.109 I hate this cycle and this optimism. 00:22:35.159 --> 00:22:38.869 And then it's like, somehow getting tricked into supporting the wrong thing. 00:22:38.869 --> 00:22:40.009 You're like, Oh, they're doing the right thing. 00:22:40.019 --> 00:22:40.709 You're making this better. 00:22:40.710 --> 00:22:41.659 They're making, Oh my God. 00:22:41.659 --> 00:22:44.909 They, they dominate the industry and now nobody can do anything anymore. 00:22:44.909 --> 00:22:46.129 And I've made a terrible mistake. 00:22:46.745 --> 00:22:46.935 Matt: Yeah. 00:22:48.135 --> 00:22:52.068 Doc: Silence. 00:22:52.104 --> 00:22:53.794 Matt: out over the like button, right? 00:22:53.794 --> 00:22:57.354 So let's just say like the like button took over like all of social media, 00:22:57.354 --> 00:22:59.024 it's likes, it's hearts, it's whatever. 00:22:59.024 --> 00:23:03.004 It's all these things that just drive this like a vanity engagement. 00:23:03.205 --> 00:23:06.844 But if RSS had one as just like maybe your email address or your 00:23:06.854 --> 00:23:11.124 phone number represented a way to get with you, get connected to you. 00:23:11.644 --> 00:23:18.225 If everyone kind of knew what RSS was and we all had Our own RSS address, let's 00:23:18.225 --> 00:23:23.254 say, uh, that had all of our content on it, man, what a, what a world that would 00:23:23.264 --> 00:23:28.495 be because you would have, you would have that direct one to one relationship 00:23:28.504 --> 00:23:33.284 with, I have a thousand subscribers that go to my RSS feed every, every 00:23:33.294 --> 00:23:36.725 month or every day, whatever it is, and it's all of your content, photos, 00:23:36.745 --> 00:23:40.835 blog, podcast, video, whatever, um, man, what a world that would be, and 00:23:40.835 --> 00:23:44.819 these, these And these corporations, Google, Facebook, all of them, they 00:23:44.819 --> 00:23:49.049 don't want it because that is open distribution that anyone can connect with. 00:23:49.049 --> 00:23:50.679 Any app can connect to it. 00:23:50.679 --> 00:23:52.229 And guess what they can't insert? 00:23:52.799 --> 00:23:57.580 Is the ad network, is the algo to, you know, to, to scoop this stuff up. 00:23:58.360 --> 00:24:01.879 Anyway, I don't want to get on too much of a, of a soapbox about 00:24:01.909 --> 00:24:03.659 RSS cause I do love it as well. 00:24:04.290 --> 00:24:07.879 Something similar to that though, let's get into the Fediverse project 00:24:08.319 --> 00:24:09.600 that you're working on with wordpress. 00:24:09.600 --> 00:24:10.339 com, wordpress. 00:24:10.339 --> 00:24:11.719 com slash Fediverse. 00:24:12.709 --> 00:24:13.979 How did this project come about? 00:24:13.980 --> 00:24:18.110 Is this something that you pitched to WordPress as your, with your freelance 00:24:18.120 --> 00:24:21.759 WordPress content creator had on and they said yes or vice versa? 00:24:21.770 --> 00:24:22.560 How did it all come about? 00:24:23.234 --> 00:24:26.004 Doc: This was a beautiful thing that happened on social media. 00:24:26.004 --> 00:24:28.844 And there's been so many lucky, wonderful things that have happened 00:24:28.844 --> 00:24:31.844 where you use social media for a long time, as long as you put something 00:24:31.844 --> 00:24:33.374 out there and you get this response. 00:24:33.764 --> 00:24:38.914 Uh, when, when I was laid off from Torque, uh, about four months ago, I put out a 00:24:38.914 --> 00:24:43.395 message saying if I could do anything right now, I would love to somehow help 00:24:43.395 --> 00:24:44.855 spread the word about the Fediverse. 00:24:45.035 --> 00:24:47.944 I, and I think that was like one of two things I said, I'd either like 00:24:47.944 --> 00:24:50.575 to interview artists or I'd like to spread the word about the Fediverse 00:24:50.865 --> 00:24:52.065 and there's no money in the Fediverse. 00:24:52.184 --> 00:24:53.605 It's like, it's like saying 00:24:53.694 --> 00:24:55.864 Matt: I thought you were going to say there's no money in interviewing artists. 00:24:56.894 --> 00:24:59.125 Doc: Yeah, actually there's nobody out there at all. 00:24:59.415 --> 00:25:02.965 But, uh, It would be like if, if in 2009, I was like, I want 00:25:02.965 --> 00:25:04.774 to help promote RSS, right? 00:25:04.774 --> 00:25:06.245 There's nobody paying, right? 00:25:06.274 --> 00:25:09.884 And so, uh, saying I want to support the Fediverse is like, well, you 00:25:09.884 --> 00:25:12.034 know, you can, but you're probably not going to get paid for it. 00:25:12.395 --> 00:25:17.205 And, um, just as some luck, I think some, some right people saw it and some good, 00:25:17.235 --> 00:25:19.554 you know, coincidence happens where. 00:25:19.725 --> 00:25:20.455 I guess, wordpress. 00:25:20.485 --> 00:25:21.695 com or an automatic. 00:25:21.695 --> 00:25:24.435 We're looking at Fediverse stuff. 00:25:24.435 --> 00:25:28.714 They have Mattias Buferli on staff, who's building the WordPress, uh, to 00:25:28.715 --> 00:25:31.704 activity pub plugin, and so they're, they're interested in it and they're 00:25:31.705 --> 00:25:33.125 always kind of dabbling with it. 00:25:33.465 --> 00:25:36.734 And I guess they, they saw that, or it was shown to them and they reached 00:25:36.734 --> 00:25:40.554 out to me and we had this conversation and, uh, the Fediverse files is the end 00:25:40.554 --> 00:25:42.715 result, which is, um, currently a five. 00:25:43.045 --> 00:25:46.085 Episode series there might be another series, you know, uh, series two might 00:25:46.085 --> 00:25:51.715 come but series one is in the can And it is meant to explain the Fediverse in 00:25:51.745 --> 00:25:55.835 very simplistic terms So it's not like a deep dive into Fediverse politics at 00:25:55.835 --> 00:26:01.059 all The first episode is what is the Fediverse and talking about that Simple 00:26:01.059 --> 00:26:06.249 analogies to help people understand it and to get them to share my enthusiasm and 00:26:06.259 --> 00:26:07.709 to hopefully get them started on there. 00:26:07.909 --> 00:26:11.079 The second one's an interview with the co creator of activity pub. 00:26:11.474 --> 00:26:13.949 Um, we've got, you know, lots of other cool interviews. 00:26:13.949 --> 00:26:18.379 So it's been a dream job for me and it definitely a once in a lifetime 00:26:18.380 --> 00:26:22.269 opportunity where you're like, there is a thing I'm extremely passionate about. 00:26:22.309 --> 00:26:25.159 Oh, you're going to give me money to like write songs and draw 00:26:25.179 --> 00:26:26.679 animations about this thing. 00:26:26.719 --> 00:26:30.060 And it's, it's, I couldn't be any more prouder. 00:26:30.060 --> 00:26:32.320 I'm definitely going to be showing this to my grandkids. 00:26:33.450 --> 00:26:37.620 Silence. 00:26:37.735 --> 00:26:38.085 Matt: it came out. 00:26:38.085 --> 00:26:38.694 It's fantastic. 00:26:38.694 --> 00:26:41.725 I want to talk about the production of it, uh, in a moment, but in terms 00:26:41.725 --> 00:26:43.054 of explaining the Fediverse project. 00:26:43.254 --> 00:26:46.815 Number one, you're doing a great job, like breaking it down, like super simplistic. 00:26:46.875 --> 00:26:49.965 Uh, there are things that I, I learned from it that, you know, I'm not an 00:26:49.965 --> 00:26:53.324 expert in the Fediverse by any stretch of the imagination again, really only 00:26:53.324 --> 00:26:57.244 got into it a few years ago before the whole, you know, sort of Twitter 00:26:57.244 --> 00:27:02.204 fiasco, um, Twitter to X fiasco, I was there for the podcasting 2. 00:27:02.204 --> 00:27:02.605 0 stuff. 00:27:03.370 --> 00:27:07.509 Because largely that's where they, they lived and communicated with, um, but 00:27:07.509 --> 00:27:10.830 doing a fantastic job, like breaking it down, making people understand it. 00:27:10.909 --> 00:27:12.239 Uh, so I applaud you on that. 00:27:12.590 --> 00:27:13.159 Here's the thing. 00:27:13.159 --> 00:27:15.629 It's like what you said earlier is things I've said before is 00:27:15.659 --> 00:27:16.960 like, we should all eat healthier. 00:27:16.960 --> 00:27:17.960 We should all drink less. 00:27:17.969 --> 00:27:19.859 We want to lose weight, stop eating the pizza. 00:27:20.199 --> 00:27:23.049 And I felt like when the whole like, Oh, you know, we don't 00:27:23.049 --> 00:27:24.159 want to be on Twitter anymore. 00:27:24.159 --> 00:27:25.370 What are the alternatives? 00:27:25.759 --> 00:27:29.389 And people are saying Macedon, go to the Metaverse, all this stuff. 00:27:29.389 --> 00:27:30.570 And people got there and like, okay. 00:27:30.830 --> 00:27:31.169 Wait a minute. 00:27:31.739 --> 00:27:33.399 Why doesn't it look as good as Twitter? 00:27:33.939 --> 00:27:36.179 You know, where are all my, where are all my friends? 00:27:36.370 --> 00:27:37.659 Why doesn't it do these things? 00:27:37.860 --> 00:27:40.959 And then people go, okay, I guess I gotta go back to Twitter now. 00:27:41.239 --> 00:27:45.569 You know, and you're just like, Hey, you should have stayed like, this is here. 00:27:45.629 --> 00:27:46.809 This is the open web. 00:27:46.810 --> 00:27:47.779 This is what it looks like. 00:27:47.919 --> 00:27:54.040 It's never going to be as polished in that, that, uh, uh, steroid injection of 00:27:54.040 --> 00:27:58.290 like, uh, you know, news and, and breaking news and stream and the algorithm. 00:27:58.360 --> 00:28:00.239 It just, it's just not there because. 00:28:01.139 --> 00:28:02.219 People aren't building for it. 00:28:02.219 --> 00:28:05.750 And these other commercial platforms are just a long way of getting to 00:28:06.659 --> 00:28:11.750 what's your thoughts on like, Hey, here's the open, here's the open web 00:28:11.750 --> 00:28:16.790 slash social platform versus here's the Twitter or the Facebooks of the world. 00:28:16.790 --> 00:28:20.080 Like, how do you make that distinction when people ask you where they should 00:28:20.080 --> 00:28:22.839 spend their time doing social, if you can. 00:28:23.655 --> 00:28:26.955 Doc: I mean, this is very similar to, if someone asked me where, 00:28:26.985 --> 00:28:28.375 what type of website should I have? 00:28:28.505 --> 00:28:28.815 Right. 00:28:29.125 --> 00:28:31.755 Uh, there's different things that might be different fits for them. 00:28:33.890 --> 00:28:37.390 Exactly what a teenager is looking for and Mastodon isn't right. 00:28:37.400 --> 00:28:39.160 Like I'm not going to try to force them onto it. 00:28:39.500 --> 00:28:45.060 Um, I really like Mastodon and I've been very surprised at how many folks 00:28:45.060 --> 00:28:49.590 just don't find it very sticky or have some issues with it, like, um, creating 00:28:49.590 --> 00:28:53.984 Mastodon, Mastodon account for some people, it's a big barrier to pick a. 00:28:54.185 --> 00:28:59.095 A server and, you know, uh, create, create your, your identity on that 00:28:59.095 --> 00:29:00.355 versus just going to mastodon. 00:29:00.395 --> 00:29:00.695 com, right? 00:29:00.695 --> 00:29:02.695 So a lot of us are just used to go to twitter. 00:29:02.875 --> 00:29:04.925 com if you want to use Twitter and go to whatever. 00:29:05.755 --> 00:29:07.285 I didn't have too hard of that. 00:29:07.315 --> 00:29:11.845 Like it was very similar to, you know, if someone said, uh, I want to use email. 00:29:11.845 --> 00:29:12.085 Okay. 00:29:12.085 --> 00:29:14.645 First thing you got to do is find an email server and then you create your name. 00:29:14.985 --> 00:29:16.245 It wasn't, it wasn't that hard for me. 00:29:16.900 --> 00:29:19.570 I, I don't get too offended if, if it's not for everyone. 00:29:19.570 --> 00:29:21.760 Like I, at first I was like, man, what's wrong with you? 00:29:21.760 --> 00:29:22.720 Don't you care about this? 00:29:22.730 --> 00:29:25.990 Like this is, you said, you said you're leaving this other platform 00:29:25.990 --> 00:29:27.350 for these reasons and this fixes it. 00:29:27.620 --> 00:29:28.970 And I don't do that anymore. 00:29:28.970 --> 00:29:34.300 At my hope, um, I'm just running on optimism and my hope is that in the 00:29:34.300 --> 00:29:38.210 long run, uh, and by long run, I'm just talking about like five to six years. 00:29:38.520 --> 00:29:43.550 That this stuff won't be complicated to people, um, in the same way that 00:29:43.550 --> 00:29:46.350 people subscribe to a podcast and they don't think about the word RSS, 00:29:46.380 --> 00:29:49.310 which we should be taking shots every time we take, we said the word RSS 00:29:49.310 --> 00:29:52.770 in this episode, but in the same way that like, you know, RSS sounds scary. 00:29:52.890 --> 00:29:54.090 RSS readers sounds scary. 00:29:54.440 --> 00:29:56.900 Podcast, nobody, nobody thinks twice about podcast. 00:29:56.920 --> 00:29:59.230 Nobody thinks about like, how do I send an email to someone? 00:29:59.230 --> 00:30:01.070 Oh, I have to write their name and then their server. 00:30:01.240 --> 00:30:02.960 They're like, no, that's not weird for anyone. 00:30:03.930 --> 00:30:07.810 And I'm hoping that the Fediverse is going to be this thing that just catches 00:30:07.810 --> 00:30:10.426 on in a way that's super natural. 00:30:10.460 --> 00:30:12.460 When, when Twitter came around in 2007. 00:30:14.110 --> 00:30:14.580 understood it. 00:30:14.590 --> 00:30:18.840 Even though Facebook was around, I was trying to get people to sign on to Twitter 00:30:19.030 --> 00:30:22.190 and they just were like, why I don't understand the appeal of this in any way, 00:30:22.400 --> 00:30:25.230 and you were just constantly explaining how things worked and how usernames 00:30:25.250 --> 00:30:26.840 work and nobody does that anymore. 00:30:26.840 --> 00:30:28.290 Like it's just, it's just natural. 00:30:28.580 --> 00:30:33.060 I think that, uh, that activity pub is going to be like the RSS. 00:30:33.060 --> 00:30:34.720 It's going to be the thing that we don't really talk about 00:30:34.720 --> 00:30:36.380 that powers the Fediverse. 00:30:36.885 --> 00:30:40.935 And people aren't going to need constant explanations like they do now. 00:30:41.325 --> 00:30:45.525 And I hope that because of all this stuff, the things that are built around 00:30:45.525 --> 00:30:50.165 there will be so enticing and so good that the healthy meal will be so good. 00:30:50.405 --> 00:30:53.045 They'll just want to eat it because it's delicious and not 00:30:53.045 --> 00:30:53.975 because of how it was made. 00:30:54.115 --> 00:30:55.725 And, and they're not even going to have to think about it. 00:30:55.735 --> 00:30:56.455 You know how it was made. 00:30:56.505 --> 00:30:59.465 It just is, this is so much better than, you know, the garbage 00:30:59.465 --> 00:31:00.305 they're selling down the street. 00:31:00.380 --> 00:31:11.802 Um, 00:31:12.102 --> 00:31:16.670 Matt: that injection shot to connect WordPress and activity 00:31:16.670 --> 00:31:18.380 pub to the, to the Fediverse. 00:31:18.620 --> 00:31:21.440 And I'll just, you know, frame it with, with the activity pub plugin. 00:31:21.440 --> 00:31:24.380 And you show this as an example, um, in your video. 00:31:24.580 --> 00:31:27.960 So if you have the activity pub plugin running on your WordPress website. 00:31:28.845 --> 00:31:33.105 Which I do on the WP Minute, uh, and you make a post, number one, just from 00:31:33.105 --> 00:31:39.400 like, The typical one on one of, of a daily marketer, it just goes, just goes 00:31:39.430 --> 00:31:41.190 out there like I don't have to do it. 00:31:41.460 --> 00:31:45.050 I don't have to send it to, to the, to the Fediverse or go to my 00:31:45.050 --> 00:31:46.959 master account and punch it in. 00:31:47.280 --> 00:31:50.809 Um, you know, like a lot of people have to do with Twitter, LinkedIn, Facebook. 00:31:50.809 --> 00:31:53.390 I know there's plugins out there that will automatically post it, but 00:31:53.410 --> 00:31:58.020 it just lives, uh, in, uh, in the, in the Fediverse once I publish it. 00:31:58.060 --> 00:32:03.270 And two, Once it's out there, let's say if I'm on my Macedon account, um, in my 00:32:03.280 --> 00:32:07.739 app, I should say on my phone and I'm scrolling through and I leave a comment 00:32:07.760 --> 00:32:12.580 on that link, it automatically post to the comment section of that post. 00:32:12.630 --> 00:32:14.550 Let's say that is fantastic. 00:32:14.550 --> 00:32:17.550 I mean, imagine having And the conversations on Twitter 00:32:17.730 --> 00:32:20.770 about your post and then they just all show up on your post. 00:32:20.920 --> 00:32:23.530 Like that alone should make people look at that and go, wow, 00:32:23.560 --> 00:32:26.450 engagement, amazing, off the charts. 00:32:26.869 --> 00:32:31.249 Um, and going back to that connection to Tumblr, like Tumblr being a social 00:32:31.249 --> 00:32:35.669 network, I would have loved to seen, and maybe it'll still happen eventually, but 00:32:35.869 --> 00:32:40.560 I would have loved to seen that like core connection, WordPress, Fediverse, social 00:32:40.560 --> 00:32:44.089 network, and we're all kind of living in this like higher engagement world. 00:32:44.369 --> 00:32:45.060 But that's just like. 00:32:45.240 --> 00:32:49.050 Scratching the surface of what this ActivityPub plugin can do. 00:32:49.320 --> 00:32:53.400 Um, any other cool features of the ActivityPub plugin that you're, 00:32:53.480 --> 00:32:56.240 that you're liking and, and seeing, um, through doing this series? 00:32:57.030 --> 00:33:02.230 Doc: Well, okay, this, this is getting a little, um, optimistic. 00:33:02.230 --> 00:33:02.590 I don't know. 00:33:02.900 --> 00:33:07.680 I think we think of the Fediverse as a Twitter alternative, uh, or 00:33:07.740 --> 00:33:09.930 at the very least a social Right. 00:33:10.150 --> 00:33:15.420 A form of, of social media that, um, it's as if I was on one social 00:33:15.420 --> 00:33:18.070 media platform and I could comment on another social media platform without 00:33:18.070 --> 00:33:19.020 creating an account there, right? 00:33:19.020 --> 00:33:20.030 That's how we think of it. 00:33:20.660 --> 00:33:24.790 I think that the Fediverse is going to be something far bigger and it's 00:33:24.830 --> 00:33:27.140 not going to be just social media. 00:33:27.140 --> 00:33:32.115 It's going to be, um, The replacement for, uh, podcasting 2. 00:33:32.115 --> 00:33:33.710 0 could be powered by ActivityPub. 00:33:34.070 --> 00:33:37.990 And the way that that would work is I have, uh, uh, ActivityPub 00:33:38.000 --> 00:33:38.820 reader or a Fediverse. 00:33:38.820 --> 00:33:40.250 You know, I have an account on the Fediverse. 00:33:40.610 --> 00:33:42.080 And through there, I could be like, I'm going to start 00:33:42.080 --> 00:33:44.150 following Matt's podcast on here. 00:33:44.585 --> 00:33:47.115 And so like, that's that one way RSS connection, right? 00:33:47.115 --> 00:33:48.155 That podcast connection, right? 00:33:48.155 --> 00:33:50.255 And there might be whole podcast players built around this. 00:33:50.695 --> 00:33:55.065 Um, and once I like something that podcast gets an actual, like in the 00:33:55.065 --> 00:33:57.165 Fediverse, or if I leave a comment, it actually goes there, right? 00:33:57.375 --> 00:34:00.565 So instead of just that one way broadcasting, we might have this 00:34:00.565 --> 00:34:02.455 system of like two way interactions. 00:34:02.805 --> 00:34:06.015 And I'm still thinking based on kind of. 00:34:06.490 --> 00:34:09.620 Current things that we're doing and how the Fediverse could 00:34:09.620 --> 00:34:10.410 kind of integrate with it. 00:34:10.630 --> 00:34:14.890 But I think there's almost like a new type of web that that could be enabled. 00:34:15.240 --> 00:34:19.610 Um, the missing ingredients might be things like portability for your username. 00:34:19.610 --> 00:34:22.450 Like right now you're really kind of tied to if you're on Macedon, you 00:34:22.450 --> 00:34:24.870 can one move servers, whatever that could break things a little bit. 00:34:25.220 --> 00:34:27.740 Um, but eventually I think we'll have some sort of. 00:34:28.600 --> 00:34:31.805 Fediverse identity and from there be able to connect to the things. 00:34:31.805 --> 00:34:34.155 And if we move around from servers, people don't even have to know. 00:34:34.155 --> 00:34:36.265 They just always kind of connect to that identity. 00:34:36.595 --> 00:34:39.935 And, um, you know, if you change your podcasting company, maybe like, 00:34:39.965 --> 00:34:43.075 I don't know, like, I think there's a lot of interesting two way stuff 00:34:43.075 --> 00:34:45.645 that could happen that we don't even know is missing right now. 00:34:45.645 --> 00:34:46.425 And that's exciting. 00:34:46.945 --> 00:34:51.985 Um, and you, you mentioned, you mentioned press and, or will you mention blogs 00:34:52.025 --> 00:34:55.850 and the ability to have those comments, you know, When I think about the next 00:34:55.910 --> 00:35:02.360 use case, I'm hoping that, you know, Wired and Verge and TechCrunch all have 00:35:02.370 --> 00:35:05.760 that Fediverse integration and not just like, we have a mastodon account, let's 00:35:05.770 --> 00:35:09.980 copy paste what we wrote on Twitter and put it in there, but actually, when 00:35:09.980 --> 00:35:14.130 their blog post goes up, it also gets federated, becomes a first class system, 00:35:14.810 --> 00:35:18.750 first class user, basically, like it's, it's a post that hasn't been updated. 00:35:19.235 --> 00:35:21.415 Shared to the FedEverse, it lives on the FedEverse. 00:35:21.745 --> 00:35:25.325 And from there, people can like subscribe to, you know, news, 00:35:25.375 --> 00:35:28.445 newspapers and stuff, write comments, and they go into the comment section. 00:35:28.765 --> 00:35:31.535 And I I'm feeling pretty optimistic about that because I know that 00:35:31.725 --> 00:35:34.375 the publishers more than anyone else have been burned by Facebook. 00:35:34.725 --> 00:35:35.735 They've been burned by Twitter. 00:35:35.735 --> 00:35:38.315 They've been, you know, they're the ones who are like, we're tired of building 00:35:38.315 --> 00:35:39.752 our audiences for some other platform. 00:35:40.225 --> 00:35:42.752 And then all of a sudden they, they shut off the algorithm or something. 00:35:43.155 --> 00:35:46.205 And if they switch to FedEverse integration. 00:35:46.575 --> 00:35:50.435 And start kind of really leaning on, you know, instead of focusing on posting 00:35:50.435 --> 00:35:53.995 on, on these other things, we're just going to post this on our site and it 00:35:53.995 --> 00:35:57.475 gets federated and it's a first class citizen of the Fediverse, then maybe 00:35:57.475 --> 00:35:58.945 users will start kind of coming in. 00:35:58.955 --> 00:36:02.155 That's maybe the first wave of users that come in other than just 00:36:02.155 --> 00:36:03.475 looking for Twitter alternatives. 00:36:03.775 --> 00:36:04.130 Matt: Yeah. 00:36:04.580 --> 00:36:05.540 Um, I know in podcasting 2. 00:36:05.540 --> 00:36:10.410 0, this will get a little bit technical, but the, there's a lot of features 00:36:10.410 --> 00:36:14.890 that they're, that they're exploring, you know, powered by activity pub and 00:36:15.570 --> 00:36:20.550 especially like comments and, um, you know, being able to like podcast, like, 00:36:20.550 --> 00:36:21.700 cause this doesn't exist right now. 00:36:21.700 --> 00:36:22.340 Like, especially. 00:36:22.855 --> 00:36:25.775 You know, blogging is, is fragmented, right? 00:36:25.775 --> 00:36:27.465 There's, I mean, you just have search, right? 00:36:27.465 --> 00:36:28.405 You have Google, right? 00:36:28.675 --> 00:36:32.114 And other search engines, but there's no, you know, I don't know if any, 00:36:32.115 --> 00:36:35.985 you're not going to a place to go, Oh, I want to just look at these blog 00:36:35.995 --> 00:36:38.075 categories and see all the metadata there. 00:36:38.504 --> 00:36:41.334 Um, but they're trying to do that with podcasting 2. 00:36:41.335 --> 00:36:46.115 0, you know, thanks to, uh, things like activity pub, because that data with air 00:36:46.115 --> 00:36:51.920 quotes met, maybe With air quotes can be shared throughout all app experiences. 00:36:51.930 --> 00:36:56.879 So if you like my podcast and let's say pocket casts, it might show 00:36:56.880 --> 00:36:59.149 up in overcast that you liked it. 00:36:59.150 --> 00:37:02.592 And that sort of like that data is every can be everywhere. 00:37:02.700 --> 00:37:06.669 If these other apps decide to like pull in the likes, pull in the comments. 00:37:07.030 --> 00:37:12.290 And it's just like a one stop shop where by enabling having these features live on. 00:37:13.025 --> 00:37:17.155 Or through activity pub, other apps can build upon that experience and 00:37:17.155 --> 00:37:19.895 then build the experiences that they want for their audiences. 00:37:19.895 --> 00:37:21.884 You don't want to see comments in this podcast app. 00:37:21.885 --> 00:37:22.335 No problem. 00:37:22.335 --> 00:37:24.045 They, they don't use comments in this podcast. 00:37:24.055 --> 00:37:28.544 You'll never see it, but in these other three podcast apps, comments are there. 00:37:28.554 --> 00:37:29.645 You can engage with them. 00:37:30.074 --> 00:37:31.105 And I really liked that. 00:37:31.115 --> 00:37:32.895 Like, I think that's an amazing thing. 00:37:34.405 --> 00:37:38.385 Let's talk about the production of the show of the show, of the series that 00:37:38.385 --> 00:37:40.024 you're, that you're building fantastic. 00:37:40.125 --> 00:37:43.825 Uh, and I, you know, I had no doubts that it, that it wouldn't be. 00:37:44.205 --> 00:37:47.025 Um, you're producing the whole thing, working with a team, 00:37:47.025 --> 00:37:49.085 like a one, one camera setup. 00:37:49.085 --> 00:37:52.225 Uh, I don't think it is, but judging by what I've seen, but what's the 00:37:52.225 --> 00:37:53.864 production look like behind the scenes? 00:37:53.875 --> 00:37:54.844 How does it all come together? 00:37:54.865 --> 00:37:55.985 Do you work with anybody else? 00:37:56.274 --> 00:37:57.784 How much work you do and let, let us know. 00:37:58.710 --> 00:38:02.110 Doc: So the interviews are mostly shot, um, the same way 00:38:02.150 --> 00:38:03.210 you and I are chatting right now. 00:38:03.210 --> 00:38:05.820 I even bought a new camera to kind of make it look a little nicer, 00:38:06.030 --> 00:38:09.140 but they're shot in my office in San Francisco, just a shared. 00:38:10.490 --> 00:38:15.810 And, um, for the bulk of the non interview stuff, like the intros and 00:38:15.810 --> 00:38:19.350 that first episode and the, and the fifth episode, um, those are shot in 00:38:19.420 --> 00:38:24.500 automatics office on mission street in San Francisco, which is one of the 00:38:24.500 --> 00:38:26.690 coolest buildings in the entire city. 00:38:26.690 --> 00:38:27.470 And no one knows about it. 00:38:27.470 --> 00:38:28.270 It's a real gym. 00:38:28.650 --> 00:38:32.310 And I was super excited because I, I been in there before they moved in there. 00:38:32.640 --> 00:38:34.210 And when I found out they were there, I was like, can, 00:38:34.332 --> 00:38:35.270 can we shoot the whole thing? 00:38:35.270 --> 00:38:35.320 Yeah. 00:38:35.485 --> 00:38:42.605 And so, uh, we had one day to shoot in automatic office and, um, I hired a camera 00:38:42.605 --> 00:38:47.125 guy to kind of help just because it was, if, if, if I had like, if I had infinite 00:38:47.125 --> 00:38:48.435 days, I'd just do it all by myself. 00:38:48.435 --> 00:38:51.495 But I was like, let's just, we, you know, we've got five episodes, we've got six 00:38:51.495 --> 00:38:56.125 hours, so I hired a friend to kind of come and shoot and it was for the most part, 00:38:56.155 --> 00:39:01.080 one camera, uh, and I wrote the script myself and, you know, it was Uh, I'm 00:39:01.080 --> 00:39:04.620 the on screen guy for better, for better or worse, that's, that's who you get. 00:39:04.830 --> 00:39:07.540 Um, but, uh, yeah, I just got to, 00:39:07.554 --> 00:39:09.494 Matt: And the camera guy throws paper at you, right? 00:39:09.494 --> 00:39:12.035 You're he's throwing the paper at, or are you throwing it at yourself? 00:39:12.035 --> 00:39:12.395 Like off 00:39:12.500 --> 00:39:14.090 Doc: No, the camera guy was doing, yeah. 00:39:14.190 --> 00:39:16.370 So he's, he's a stunt double as well. 00:39:16.410 --> 00:39:18.410 Uh, and, and helped with folly, I guess too. 00:39:18.770 --> 00:39:25.170 Um, but yeah, it, the, the first episode is largely me in the office, um, kind 00:39:25.170 --> 00:39:28.500 of talking at the camera and the next episode, which you haven't seen yet 00:39:28.750 --> 00:39:32.636 is an interview with Um, Evan Pedromo, who's the co creator of ActivityPub. 00:39:33.350 --> 00:39:36.460 And I try to stay away from like, you know, history and stuff like that. 00:39:36.460 --> 00:39:40.050 I just wanted to kind of get him talking about the things that someone who's just 00:39:40.050 --> 00:39:41.690 learning about it could really enjoy. 00:39:41.700 --> 00:39:43.140 Like still keep this instead of right. 00:39:43.610 --> 00:39:47.270 Instead of like aiming towards Fediverse users, uh, let's try to get 00:39:47.270 --> 00:39:50.410 people to understand the potential of what this could really be. 00:39:50.770 --> 00:39:55.325 And, um, As also part of the production, I got to write songs for the episodes, 00:39:55.725 --> 00:40:00.595 uh, which is, you know, long interest of mine is writing music and anytime I get a 00:40:00.595 --> 00:40:03.965 chance to write a stupid jingle, you know, I've wrote a jingle for Activity Pub. 00:40:03.965 --> 00:40:05.025 I wrote a jingle for Mastodon. 00:40:05.245 --> 00:40:06.615 Well, uh, uh, yeah. 00:40:06.825 --> 00:40:11.045 And, and so it's just, it was just a chance, everything I said, um, when 00:40:11.045 --> 00:40:13.835 I was writing the script, I was like, I, I think, I think there's a song. 00:40:13.970 --> 00:40:14.690 Potential here. 00:40:14.880 --> 00:40:15.810 And they were like, go for it. 00:40:15.820 --> 00:40:16.350 I was like, really? 00:40:16.900 --> 00:40:19.550 Every, every weird, stupid idea I had. 00:40:19.790 --> 00:40:24.070 Um, and you know, uh, Matt, as a, as a contractor who had been working full 00:40:24.070 --> 00:40:27.590 time for a company for 10 years as a contractor, I'm like, wow, when you're 00:40:27.590 --> 00:40:29.330 a contractor, you're like the expert. 00:40:29.380 --> 00:40:32.000 So if you just say something, they're like, Oh, this must be a really good idea. 00:40:32.340 --> 00:40:34.990 Where like, if you're like, if you're like full time with the company and 00:40:34.990 --> 00:40:37.700 stuff, you're like, Oh, I think we should, you know, do, do a song in here. 00:40:37.700 --> 00:40:41.020 Well, let's, let's, let's play it by this audience and see how it works. 00:40:41.020 --> 00:40:41.740 And, you know, see 00:40:41.760 --> 00:40:43.000 Matt: Let's talk to legal. 00:40:43.010 --> 00:40:44.830 Let's get the marketing team involved. 00:40:45.220 --> 00:40:45.990 Oh God. 00:40:46.680 --> 00:40:47.200 Doc: this is great. 00:40:47.210 --> 00:40:48.960 This was, this is just like any stupid idea. 00:40:48.970 --> 00:40:52.780 I wish, I wish, honestly, I have more dumb ideas because I would have loved 00:40:52.780 --> 00:40:55.300 to have seen where, where the limit was. 00:40:55.340 --> 00:40:58.810 Like, uh, you know, like, uh, no, doc, you shouldn't parachute 00:40:58.820 --> 00:41:00.510 off of the tower for this. 00:41:00.530 --> 00:41:02.180 I think we're, I think we got the point. 00:41:02.800 --> 00:41:04.280 I think we, we conveyed that. 00:41:04.360 --> 00:41:04.670 Yeah. 00:41:04.940 --> 00:41:06.480 They were, they were super supportive of this. 00:41:06.620 --> 00:41:16.594 Okay. 00:41:16.894 --> 00:41:18.105 Matt: Can't wait to see the next episode. 00:41:18.105 --> 00:41:21.054 I hope we're, if anyone from Automatic is listening, I, you know. 00:41:21.305 --> 00:41:25.565 Bring Doc on to continue to do more content, uh, for wordpress. 00:41:25.565 --> 00:41:30.825 com, uh, beyond the Fediverse, uh, uh, if, if that's possible, uh, but if you're also 00:41:30.825 --> 00:41:34.905 looking to hire somebody to jump off of a tower with a parachute with your WordPress 00:41:34.925 --> 00:41:38.434 logo on it, uh, he's for hire at docpop. 00:41:38.434 --> 00:41:42.465 org, uh, check him out, uh, as a freelance WordPress content creator. 00:41:42.870 --> 00:41:47.510 Um, anything else, anywhere else folks can go to say thanks to, to visit you online? 00:41:47.580 --> 00:41:51.540 Macedon, Twitter, any other, uh, corporate social networks 00:41:51.540 --> 00:41:52.490 that folks can find you on. 00:41:53.055 --> 00:41:53.565 Doc: Absolutely. 00:41:53.565 --> 00:41:57.785 I'm still on a lot of the corporate social networks and the way to find me is docpop. 00:41:57.815 --> 00:42:00.215 org slash about. 00:42:00.580 --> 00:42:04.070 I think that's, uh, I think that's the one and that's where you can find 00:42:04.070 --> 00:42:05.410 my little link tree to everything. 00:42:05.470 --> 00:42:07.150 And this might be how we do it in the future. 00:42:07.150 --> 00:42:10.560 Instead of being like, here's my username, we just might be like, here's a section 00:42:10.560 --> 00:42:13.060 of my site where everything's listed and that's what I'm trying right now. 00:42:13.100 --> 00:42:15.960 So you can find my GitHub, you can find everything all 00:42:15.960 --> 00:42:17.540 from that, uh, from that page.