Trey: Hello and welcome back to another episode of, MCU Need to know.
A podcast dedicated to the Marvel cinematic universe and
everything you need to know,I'm Trey
Jude: I'm Jude.
How are you doing Trey?
Trey: I'm doing pretty fantastic because Shang-Chi is out!.
Jude: Yes,
yes.
You know what?
And there was a little bit of a fear, I think, and it getting pushed.
I'm glad it didn't.
Trey: Yeah, I'm always a fan of more options, but I'm so glad
it didn't get delayed as well.
Cause it's, especially after the week that we've had on social media
where it felt like one by one, so many big movies were being delayed.
It's it starting to be this creeping feeling like I like maybeEternals, maybe
Spider-Man might be next in line, but at least for now we have Shang-Chi.
Jude: I know.
Spider-Man goes without saying right.
In terms of being excited for, but I was really excited for Sean Chase.
I'm glad it made it.
Trey: Yeah, me too.
And keep your eyes out on the feed.
Maybe this coming Tuesday for bonus quick reactions, episode four.
so make sure you're subscribed.
So, you know, when that drops, but how are you doing, dude?
Jude: Well, my cousin Paul, it was so funny because he even mentioned
was, I jokingly said about the time travel I'm listening to it.
So yeah, he, he said, yeah, I heard you talk about me.
He's actually still here because of the hurricane that hit.
Oh, no.
Um, so w which is nice, like, I, it was a fantastic visit as he's listening.
Uh, thank you for coming to visit, uh, you know, it was, it was wonderful.
He was like, welcome to stay as long as he wanted, but yeah, so
that was a fun, that was a fun week.
And so I, I felt bad because this last night.
Or, you know, right before we started recording, I was already a little bit
tired, you know, and I was rewatching.
What if to get my notes and I don't know, I guess after a week, You know,
it's like, oh, guests by the week.
You're like, look, this is just your place to you're on your own.
That's unfortunately, that's what it seems like.
Sorry, Paul.
Trey: Oh man.
All the hosts, like the it's just gone.
It's like, Hey man, I got to go do this.
Okay.
Oh, that's fantastic.
But it was tremendous.
That's a special level of comfortability with somebody that
you could have at that point.
It's like, Hey, you know where things are?
Jude: Oh, absolutely.
Absolutely.
You know what?
He might be smiling and nodding his head.
As I say this, I think he really enjoyed Francis.
Oh, really?
Enjoyed the dog.
Yeah.
Not as mascots, not enough to take them home with them.
Um, unfortunately, but
Trey: is that, is that your plea every time somebody comes and
visits to get them to take the
Jude: dog?
Yes.
Oh really?
I get that.
It's never going to happen.
I just like my sandwiches.
I like to make any sandwiches and
Trey: piece look it's, it's an understandable ask of anyone and I hope
you find that piece someday one day.
Jude: Oh my God.
How are you?
Trey: You know, I reached a new level.
Of podcast researching today as I was taking notes where we're not going to
get into it yet, but I was watching on my iPad in one screen and then
like the iPad can do two screens.
I was taking notes in the other and it got to the point in the, what if
episode where I was like, Huh, I wonder.
And I pulled up the Dr.
Strange movie on my phone.
So I was watching both on my iPad and on my phone at the same time.
And I just had to pause and think about like, wow, this is, this
is a lot, we joked about watching on two screens, but I'm actually,
Jude: so I'm, I'm curious any insights, well, I guess we'll have to get into that
on the other side of the spoilers, but any insights to having at the same time,
Trey: it was more just wanting to get a confirmation of something.
But, uh, yeah, I hope I haven't.
Yeah, but we'll see when we get there.
Yeah.
Which, Hey, if you downloaded this episode with it, then you know,
we're going to be discussing.
What if season one, episode four.
What if Dr.
Strange lost his heart instead of his head?
So we're also doing a bit of an audible.
If you've been listening, uh, for the last few weeks, you know, that the way
we've been doing this is our pre spoiler thoughts, which we are still going to do.
But on the other side of the spoiler zone, we've decided instead of breaking
it down by the most important topics, we're going to go back to an old method
of reviewing these episodes, which is by doing the three act structure breakdown.
Um, I think we had a very good conversation at the
end of the last podcast.
When we were done recording about how given the short length of these episodes,
it kind of felt like we were stretching the episode a little too thin and not
covering everything that we wanted to cover with the most important topics.
So with this change, we're really hoping to give it more of that attention.
We would like to, since it is shorter than most of the other
things we've gotten so far this year.
So with that being said, we're going to go ahead and get
into our pre spoiler thoughts.
So Jude, what are your pre spoiler thoughts for this.
Jude: Uh, I think I'm going to stick with what we posted
on social media that got dark.
This might be my favorite episode.
Really?
It might be, but man, it went dark.
Yeah.
I really enjoyed it.
I really liked all the others felt like a cartoon, right.
This didn't feel as cartoony as the others to me.
So yeah, that, that was the thing I noticed.
It, it really didn't feel like as much of a cartoon to me and just
the, the direction they took it.
What about you?
. Trey: So following suit with you, I'll start with the one that we
shared on social media as well at MC you need to know on Twitter and
Instagram, I'm impressed by the way, this series has given us so many
variations on the multi-verse premise.
So kind of quickly going through it.
That first one with captain Carter was a slight story deviation with a
major character, swap to challah was a major story change and such a huge
departure from the story we knew.
Whereas episode three was another major story deviation, but very
minimal character swaps and.
It's it's, it's flexing these different ways to contextualize the multi-verse.
If that makes sense.
And I, I I'm appreciating that.
I think that's a fun look at the possibilities, which by the way, after
we did the, the voiceover intro for the, what if leach and Daniel episode,
anytime I say possibilities, I'm immediately back into the recording.
Jude: Well, I'm just going to start muting.
The what if and play yours?
Trey: You know, we had this whole thing with Daredevil, where I said
watching the intro is a part of the experience because I did that.
I almost want to skip the intro.
I can't do it anymore.
Ooh.
We're getting, getting back to my pre spoiler thoughts.
We're not there yet.
All of these have been individual stories so far, but I really am starting to get
this feeling of a slow build between episodes that feels like it will be more
connected by the end of this season.
And we can get into that once we get into the spoiler zone, but it
it's, it's invoking feelings of the way one division had those first
three super stylized episodes.
And then by episode four, you're like, oh, I get it.
I see how this is all interconnecting.
So I feel like that turn is coming.
Yes.
Jude: Okay.
I was about to say something, but I got to wait for the.
Trey: Can we use that instead of the normal one?
You mean, can you imagine if, if this was somebody's first episode and
they were like, whoa, what was that?
Jude: Look, I just went with it, man.
I, I just, it was time.
Trey: It was time.
I got a new one too.
I'll I'll do one at some point before we, well, as we were
alluding to, we were getting ready to jump into the spoiler zone.
Uh, but before we do, we just wanted to take time to remind people that if you
are not already, uh, you should definitely be following us on social media at MC you
need to know on Twitter and Instagram, you know, we've been doing some work
in putting up bonus content, uh, things that don't make the cut of the episode
that you hear in your feed as well.
Uh, like we mentioned earlier, you get a taste of our priest, poreless thoughts
either on the day of, or very relatively soon since Monday is a bit of a wait
Jude: and another reason to follow it.
So you can share your reactions with us and we can read it on the podcast.
Trey: Yeah.
About to hear is an audio cue.
And on the other side of the queue, we'll be talking full
spoilers for everything in the MCU.
So we'll see you on the other side.
And we're back.
We mentioned earlier, we're going to be breaking things down by three acts
instead of the most important topics.
So act one is going to take us from the beginning of the episode all
the way until the confrontation with the ancient one, where Dr.
Strange escapes to the library of CAG, Leo stro, starting with YouTube, where
would you like to start within this first?
My
Jude: starting point is going to be Rachel McAdams.
I think she was so good at it.
Yeah, you watch these shows and you can tell a difference, I
think sometimes and that okay.
Your voice acting versus on set.
Right?
Like I could hear a little different in Benedict Cumberbatch when he's
normally on me when I came to bargain and there's a slight difference, but
Rachel McAdams, I didn't, I don't know.
It just felt real.
Yeah.
And I think she was really good in that
Trey: for whatever reason, I was convinced going into this episode
that it was confirmed somewhere that Benedict Cumberbatch was
not going to be in this show.
And it was like, I remember reading like a list of all the original
actors that weren't going to be in it.
And I could've sworn he was there.
And so whenever he took his first word in the episode, I
was like, that's actually him.
And it just made it that much more delightful.
And then the follow up with Rachel McAdams as well, it was like, oh
man, this, this is going to be.
Jude: Yeah, I think so too.
I, I remember watching it and well, Paul was here and we were both watching it
together and it was like, that's magic.
That sounds like Benedict.
No, it's not Benedict.
He wasn't going to be in this.
No, it is.
It's like, yeah.
Yeah.
Was it a
Trey: surprise
Jude: that he was in it?
Yeah, I was surprised.
Were you surprised?
I was surprised
Trey: I was it designed surprise
Jude: by March?
I'm not sure, but I look the only reason why I did that as anybody who's watched,
I think it's glorious from Eddie Izzard is going to be rolling right there.
But anyways, um, I think it's glorious.
It might, it might be D indefinite article, but I'm pretty sure it's
glorious, but yeah, no, I was surprised.
Trey: And real quickly, I just wanted to play off something that you said about
the difference in voice acting and acting.
I think that Benedict Wong is one of the best translations of live action
character to animated character.
I don't think this made the podcast last week, but I was talking
about in the discord with friend Daniel, how, for me last week it
was Michael Douglas this week.
It's 100% Wong.
He just feels so natural in the animated role that I really appreciated it.
Jude: Yeah.
Yeah.
You're right.
I mean, as much as I just said about Rachel McAdams you're right.
Wong was really, really good here too.
Yeah.
And not to take anything away from Benedict Cumberbatch like they are,
but it just, they, they just jumped off, jumped off the screen for them.
Trey: Yeah.
You know, I've been tracking this feeling that the watcher is tiptoeing
into interfering in this multi-verse.
I really enjoyed the line where he said, we have watched how one moment, one
choice can ripple across space and time.
And he goes into that whole thing about like, what would happen if somebody
made the wrong choice for someone who can not, will not interfere.
It feels like even the participation or even the opinion of something
being the wrong choice feels like an act of participation on his point.
And so it's like we're watching this tension build until a
moment where he will and it's.
It's such a tease.
Like I think I'm pulling it up ahead because it makes sense here.
I think I wrote down somewhere later in my notes, the watcher is the most
interesting character to me that I just want more of and we haven't gotten
Jude: well, you know what?
And they're, and they're slowly introducing us more to them.
Trey: Yeah.
It feels like there's more
Jude: to him.
So, so let me ask you this.
What did you think in this case was the choice.
Okay.
Cause I don't really see a choice.
Trey: Yeah.
I, I don't know if they gave us a choice because even at the beginning
where they are going to an award ceremony together that never happened.
Yeah.
Like, and, and even, um, even them being on good terms.
When we start in the movie, it's already implied a relationship that
has gone wrong and they're only working in a very, um, professional sense.
And this episode starts with a lot more.
Familiar relationship.
So whatever choice there was, it was already happened.
Offscreen.
Jude: Yeah.
Well, okay.
So it's, what if Dr.
Strange lost his heart instead of his hands, right?
That's the title?
So for me, my first note was strangers and full of himself.
So already that's different.
Remember?
Cause he's not, I it's, I don't see him in the beginning as this arrogant person.
Like you can't lose your heart the way strange did, if he is at the start, the
way he was in the middle in the movie.
And so for me, like he doesn't get to go learn humility because
he loses it in the movie.
He loses his hands, he goes to fix his hands and he has to learn humility here.
He's not, he has the same drive to fix something.
Right.
And what he lost was himself.
And he's trying to fix himself here.
He's trying to fix what he lost, which was Christine.
Right.
You know?
And so, and in that way, that, to me, that was where the biggest difference was and
like who he was as a person before then.
Trey: Right.
Interesting to note though, that in any universe, he's
still a terrible driver though.
Jude: Well, hold on, hold on.
Christine drove once and they got rear ended a lot of those times, right?
This
Trey: is getting very dark,
Jude: but yes.
I mean, they got rear ended a lot of those times.
So it was of that.
He was a terrible driver or Christine was terrible driver, you know, maybe,
maybe it was the watcher or the TVA that was rear kept rear ended him
to make sure this is what happens.
Trey: This is before they invented those, uh, those time vials.
I already forgot what they were called.
The reset charges.
You know, jokes aside.
I did want to emphasize a little bit more cause you're right.
This is not a, a braggart that Stephen strange was at the beginning of the movie.
He was a lot more reserved.
He was a lot more humble.
And the thing that I think stuck out to me oddly, was a
throwaway line where Christine was talking about prices, rights.
Like you've never heard of prices.
Right.
And Steven's like, no, what is that?
And I genuinely believed him.
I don't think he was playing it off.
It's you know, for somebody who took so much pride in trivia in
that opening sequence of the movie where he was just like performing
surgery and like Naomi's the year.
Yeah.
It w it's so no pun intended strange that this, this version of Dr.
Strange doesn't have the cultural pop culture knowledge.
So that's a big change right there.
And was able
Jude: to recognize the number one hit with, was it the flugel horn, the
flugel horn or something like that?
Yeah.
Is that what it was?
I think that's what it was.
Trey: Flugel horn is, uh, how, like the Seusical thing.
Isn't it then?
What was it?
I'm
Jude: not sure.
I don't know why that comes to mind now.
I want to know.
Okay.
Now we have, you will
Trey: need to reach us on social media.
So I'm looking for it.
Jude: It's not, not a flugelhorn, but what is it?
That was the instrument and doctor strange pull over and park, go to Twitter.
Now, go to
Trey: side, joking aside, you know, you brought up this idea of
how, like a person who loses their heart doesn't need to be humbled.
I think it made me appreciate something that I didn't know.
Internalize in the movie where it was two problems that Dr.
Strange was facing.
It was the humility, which I think is the easiest one, but it's also this idea of
letting go so much of the later half of that movie is him trying to get back to
the life he had before he lost his hands.
And it emphasizes the importance of that character flaw here.
When you, I guess, adapt the story from being his own personal wellbeing to the
wellbeing of another, because that, that feeling of letting go resonate stronger
in the external factor of somebody else.
Yeah.
That makes sense.
No, totally true.
That if that makes
Jude: sense.
No, no, no, no.
It makes sense.
It does.
It makes sense.
So watching Christine die over and over, it was heartbreak.
Trey: Aye.
I want to let you go first because I have a different feeling really?
Yeah.
And I think this might make me the villain of the season, but go ahead.
I want to hear your positives first.
Wow.
Jude: Death over and over to an individual that he would lead loves.
That's what, okay.
Uh, it just was like, like, cause for me, you know, I'm seeing Stephen strange
so desperately at this point, right?
It's happened.
He has gone on to become sorcerer Supreme and it's a two year
anniversary and he gets lost, you know?
So like, so like he hasn't really moved on.
Right.
He's still in this grief and he just gets lost in this memory and he has the
power to do so because of the time stone, just so desperately clinging to them.
That memory and just everything he tries, it just not working and over and over
again, having to relive that death.
I just, I found that heartbreaking.
Yeah, go ahead.
Be the villain.
All right.
Trey: Here's my turn to be the villain, you know, last week, I think
you mentioned coming to terms with realizing that you just don't like
the animation style and that's fine.
I think this episode for me was me coming to terms with not liking the
format, at least so far because of that short timeframe, the feeling of
watching Christine die over and over again, felt more like they needed to
get in as many of those rounds as they could to kind of beat us over the head.
Then actually spending time with that realization of having to watch somebody,
let somebody go like that and fail.
So whenever it was happening over and over again, I was with it at first.
But by the time we got to the scene where they were in the diner and the gunman
walks in, while they're eating pizza, I laughed, it felt like a lifetime.
And yeah, like I get the point that they're trying to make.
It just, it felt very, I don't know, like it didn't, it didn't land for me.
Like I think it did for other people.
And so this is why I feel like I'm the villain.
Jude: I'm trying this, I'm trying my best to see it from your perspective.
Trey: I think it's just the,
Jude: go ahead.
Now I'm just trying to, and try my best to see it from your perspective.
Cause to me like I'm imagining he is looking through all the possibilities
and looking for just that one.
That's different.
Yeah.
And.
Yeah, I don't see it
Trey: to me.
It's it's just because they go through it where he tries to do it differently.
And then he thinks he saved.
It doesn't happen.
That hit hard.
I was like, okay, here we go.
I understand that he's going to learn the hard way that he can't do it.
I think they do it two more times of different variations of like,
you know, they decide not to go or they take an alternate route and it
just keeps happening where they die.
And then by the fifth time here we are at the parlor scene and it was like, I
got it, but they just kept going with it.
And so it didn't, it wasn't connecting with me emotionally because I was
like, you're are like, we only have so much time and I get it.
Does that make sense?
Jude: I, yeah.
No, if not, that's fine.
It's just, it's just, cause, I mean, they're trying to establish that.
Like, they're trying, for me, it was always the car wreck.
There's always a car wreck.
And so you finally get them.
Oh, well, not always.
It was the one where they actually get there and she has a heart attack.
And then, then you had the one where, right?
The one you laughed.
Yeah.
The gunman.
But in other words that they do something completely different.
He stands her up and something happens.
And so to me, they were trying to really establish that,
that absolute point in time.
Yeah.
And so that's it.
And I think, I think they had to show other ways other variations with
the same outcome to get that result.
Trey: Yeah.
Well, no, go ahead.
I was going to say, I think it's finally official.
I have a cold dead heart, but, uh, carry on.
Jude: Well, I was going to say this, this here though.
It is.
If there's any place where it's like, I'm letting something go
because it's a cartoon, this
Trey: is where it's at.
I think that's me coming to terms with not connecting with the format.
I think if they're going to pull something like that off, because
it's not a detriment to animation, animation can be serious, it can
tackle like more mature stories.
And I'm fine with that.
But because these are so short and because as of right now,
they're not continuous storylines.
I just, I'm not connecting with it emotionally.
And so that part was a bummer.
And just to like clarify, this is like, I think the most
critical I am of the episode.
So, you know, hopefully this is the only act where I get this, uh,
negative, but yeah, it's just, it's not working for me that way, which
sucks because that last point it sucks because I do like that idea of.
The corrosion of trying to hold onto the past and how unhealthy
it is for strange to be there.
It just, that one aspect of it didn't do it for
Jude: me.
Right.
Well, and here's where I say, cause it didn't Dawn on me to right now the, well,
two things am I note there is this element of like Ken and absolute point in time
exists in a, multi-verse say probably not.
But the other thing is there is that weird, like this strange is
using the time stone to go back to change that, which case that event
is what got him with the time stone.
So it's a weird paradox.
Yeah.
And so like, and I didn't think about it watching it cause it's a cartoon.
And I just didn't think about that, but it is kind of a paradox
of like, well, if you do fix this, that's the motivation for you?
You know, and maybe that's kind of the absolute point in time angel
owner's referring to, or the idea of like, wait a minute, this happened.
So do you became here and became the sorcerer Supreme?
And it was dialogue and everything was like, this has to happen.
So you can become the sorcerer Supreme, but also it has to happen because you
are the sorcerer Supreme is another way.
I think we could look at it because otherwise he wouldn't be able to
go back and relive these things.
Trey: Come on.
I think he even mentions to, to the ancient one, I'm creating a paradox.
Like he, he was well aware of it.
Yeah.
Well, I will say this to add one positive point on it because I know
I was coming down pretty harshly.
We were talking about voice acting earlier.
It's very hard to pull off a character exclaiming, no like screaming at the sky
and probably even harder in an animated.
I think that it did a pretty good job on this one, whenever it
gets to the end where he realizes that he just can't save her.
And that did get me a little bit.
So yeah, some points to that.
Okay.
Jude: Well, you know, we'll give you a point for that,
Trey: you know, changing out of this topic completely.
We've, we've talked around it, but I don't think we've
talked about him in particular.
I want a show with Wong and strange, just hanging out at the sanctum sanctorum
it seems like they've got such a great dynamic, but every time they turn around
a world ending event is happening.
And I just want to see them hang out.
That's
Jude: that's the next one shot.
Yeah, strange in Wong, just like thorn Daryl.
Trey: Well, it's just like, you know, Dr.
Strange is ruminating looking out the window and, and Wong comes
in and he's like, oh, I had to use the little sourcers room.
And he was like, oh, I'll go put the kettle on before you do anything stupid.
Like they have such a great dynamic.
And, and even that line about him saying, oh, I'll go put the kettle on
I, this is where I get tripped up a little bit, because I think what I want
to pull from it is we know how long was very apprehensive about the way Dr.
Strange was doing things after he became the sorcerer Supreme to be.
But here he fully trust, strange to be on his own while he goes and starts
the kettle and trust that he won't do anything rash with the time stone,
even though he ends up doing that.
But I like that growth of trust on Wong's part.
Right, right.
Well, I think that's going to wrap it up for act one.
So moving into act two, this is going to take us from the moment that Dr.
Strange is in the library of Taglio stro and his training and absorbing
all the different mystical creatures to gain knowledge up until the point
that he learns that he is only half a man after discussing with obeying.
So starting with me this time, the place that I really want to start
is just the setting of the library.
Overall, think when I was taking notes, I thought about it strange
really is a character whose strength is more in that ability to learn
and to absorb information quickly rather than just conjuring up magic.
Uh, it's the same way we're like, you know, with Tony,
it's not that he's in a suit.
It's that?
He's the mechanic, he's the tinker.
This is the true power of who he is.
And whenever you think in terms of that, for Dr.
Strange, putting him.
In a library of infinite knowledge just feels like such great drama
because you're watching a character who's already teetering on the edge
of heroics and you get to watch that tight rope as he pursues that knowledge,
which isn't bad, but knowing what he ultimately wants to do and that
motivation behind it, which is watching somebody walk down a path of demise.
And it's just, it's great, great tension throughout that episode,
Jude: man.
I, I really wonder where that was at and like, pardon me?
I was curious like, what is that?
um, now he never called him cavalier OSHA.
There was another name.
He called him by obeying.
Yeah, but I, I dunno, I, I was kind of hoping that would be calculator,
show himself kind of that whole Yoda.
You know, I'm not gonna reveal that I'm Yoda empire strikes back thing
Trey: right away.
Well, he even had the same aloof nature.
He's like, maybe he's there, maybe he's here.
Maybe he's nowhere.
Yeah.
And that feels very much like empire strikes back Yoda.
Yeah.
Jude: Yeah.
But you're right.
Like I'm, I'm, it is, you're a hundred percent right.
Of this, you know, that's, that's what we saw in the movie of Dr.
Strange him using the astral projection, running and burning
through these books so fast, you know?
So it makes sense that that's what he would do and that's
where we get to see him do.
Um, and it's, I, I think what I mentioned earlier, he, the similar
drive to I lost myself and I got to fix myself and this, I lost Christine.
I got to fix this.
It's the same drive.
You know, it's just, the drive is pushing him in another direction.
Um, right.
It does.
I really am curious though, where that library was.
I don't know why I was just so fixated on where is he, where is that?
Or I guess problem with properly.
He said wind to the ancient one.
When
Trey: was he?
Yeah.
You know, I do want to butt in here real quick.
Cause I'd mentioned in the preschooler thoughts, or maybe even the banter section
about how I had two screens open at once.
Uh, there's a scene where Dr.
Strange is finally going through the books and he's opening
them up and he's reading them.
And I think he says something like, ah, time manipulation,
bingo, and he flips it open.
And there was a sign, a very, very prominent red sign in the middle of
the book and it triggered a memory.
So I opened up Dr.
Strange the movie on my iPhone.
It's the same, uh, glyph magic ruin, whatever it may be that Cassius uses
whenever he connects with Dormamuu.
And so that I wanted to confirm that.
So hopefully that lived up to the, uh, the expectation setting
and the priest boiler thoughts.
Yeah.
It also makes me wonder, is this just a fun Easter egg or is there some meaning
to derive from the symbols being the same?
Because at this point in the story, Dr.
Strange has already conquered Dormamuu.
So I don't know what else that sign would be for.
Well,
Jude: I, I think it's, it's the whole tapping into the dark magic
that the ancient one did the live long that Casey Lee has did.
So I think that's, to me that would be
Trey: the connection, basically the dark side of the sourcer Supremes.
Jude: Yeah.
Hey man, you got to, we all have the shadow and we got to face our shadows,
integrate them to be whole for all our youngian psychologists out there.
I'm just saying, you know, we all got it.
Although I think technically the shadow's neutral, but anyways,
let's not get bogged down on that.
Trey: That's a story for another day.
Jude: So, yeah.
Um, one of the things I found really interesting about this
part, and I don't think I caught it the first time was the gnome.
I don't think it registered shared with me if like he's
sizing up in creatures, right.
Learning how to absorb.
And the first creature was this evil gnome.
Yeah.
Where in the world is this evil know from the Marvel
Trey: universe?
My guess somewhere in ant, man.
I bet you anything.
If we watch an ant man movie, there's a shot of a know it all this time.
It was an evil gnome and we just didn't know
Jude: me.
They know, I like how he gets.
Yeah.
Uh, it was, it was a different Cape, but he, he got his Cape and
then that was the same creature.
Right.
Trey: I'm going to read my notes, Jude called it with the tentacle monster
being connected between episodes.
And that was a hundred percent the same monster as it wasn't captain card.
Yeah.
So you get points for that.
You know, if there is an overarching plot, I'm putting my money, that that
creature is central to it somehow, because it cannot be a coincidence
that the two portals that opened up the first one with captain Carter.
And now this one with Dr.
Strange it's, it's the identical tentacle monster.
So there's something there for sure.
Identical tentacle, the identical tentacle and.
Jude: Other children's books.
Oh, man.
Right next to a Munster at the end of the book.
Identical tentacle.
But yeah, no, I I'm.
We're going to see, we're going to see that again.
Trey: Oh, 100%.
You know, and, and while we're here talking about the creatures that Dr.
Strange faced off against, I had two thoughts, one watching him go
against all those mythical creatures is further proof that I want.
My roguelike Dr.
Strange game.
It would be perfect.
And I really want that to be a reality now.
Oh yeah.
Yeah.
Like you already have.
I mean, I've, we've talked about in previous episodes, but you have
the idea of like certain runs in a video game, being a different
timeline that is exploring.
And then now you have all these creatures that are just the perfect
fodder for going against needle.
Yeah.
You
Jude: level
Trey: up learn new spells.
Yeah.
Somebody make it happen.
You know, the other thing that I wanted to really highlight here
is the, the whole act of Dr.
Strange powering up is by absorbing these creatures and all of this is in pursuit to
be powerful enough to change the absolute point in time where he can save Christine.
And it is, like I said, despite the beginning, part's
not really working for me.
There is some kernel of that deterioration of watching somebody cling to the past
that I think is a really interesting hook, watching him turn into these
horrible creatures as he absorbs them.
It's just really nice because you're watching him
sacrifice his humanity for it.
And you will be questioned head on of like, is this worth it?
But you do get to see it up to that point.
And so it's just nice visual storytelling.
Jude: Oh, what is it?
I'm going to say this.
And I hope I, somebody is going to correct it.
But it's, it's like the, the picture of Dorian gray.
Yeah.
Where Dorian gray is the subject of like this portrait in Dorian is
infatuated with this beauty and the PA and I'm going to get it wrong.
And my wife is going to be upset cause she loves Oscar Wilde.
But essentially it's like the, that he's fascinated with this
beauty and there's this picture.
But the, but while the picture looks beautiful, I think he himself becomes
distorted and it is basically like this, you know, selling the soul and trying
to stay young kind of, kind of thing.
And just as I like cringe, when people screw things up, I know there's people who
probably know more about this than what I just did and cringing and say, okay,
Trey: well, listen, I just talked about not being emotionally affected by watching
someone be gunned down in a pizza parlor.
You're fine.
Jude: So, but, but it, it, it has that idea and reminds me of that.
Right.
And this whole idea of, you know, the, the choices we make, um, to
accomplish things matter, right?
The actions we take matter.
It's, uh, I was talking about this with my students all the time, right.
Intentions, make a, make a, make a difference and why you
want to do the things you do.
And that, and that just becomes, it starts to distort who you
are and you lose sight of that.
And, and the, and the thing that, especially with cartoons, um, and,
and, or not cartoons, but animated stuff or whatever, the ability to
visually show that was fantastic.
Trey: Yeah.
And, you know, playing off that a little bit more, another one of the
notes I took is whenever, because the way it happens in the episode is.
Dr strange summons, the tentacle monster first, and he just tries to
borrow his power and his immediately done away with, and then he wakes up
and he has a conversation with obeying where obeying is lecturing on him
about the path that he is currently on.
And he delivers a line of there's a fine line between devotion and delusion.
And I mean, that's the thesis of this episode is summed up in one sentence.
Is this watching this person sacrifice so much of who they are to get this
thing that they think they want?
And it's a tragedy watching that.
Dr.
Strange, despite that I love coming from a real place.
It has now been reframed as this challenge to prove how much she meant to them.
So rather than ever learning to let go, he's just stuck in this hole that
he keeps digging further and further.
And it's just really sad to me that that's where the emotional heavy
aspect of this episode came from.
You know, I mentioned in the first act how we are watching this tip-toeing of
the watcher as he gets closer and closer to wanting to intervene, we straight
up have it here in this second act.
As Dr.
Strange is dealing with the effects of absorbing all the different creatures
and the tolls that is taking on his body.
We cut to the watcher.
Who's talking about like, should I intervene?
Should I let him know he's making a mistake?
What would it matter?
I can't do this.
And then Dr.
Strange, like looks over his shoulder and goes, hello.
Can you imagine being somebody who is as powerful as the watcher,
having doubts in your belief and then having that insecurity being audibly,
recognized by someone who is supposed to be so far outside your realm.
That gave me chills.
Like just that concept of it, because it's like, it's showing how strong Dr.
Strange has become, and also bringing the watcher down a peg from the all powerful
status that he had going into this show.
Jude: Well, it's interesting.
Cause he said the watcher said I'm not a God.
Yeah, man.
He has very godlike traits.
So maybe put that to be able to be outside and watch that way across,
across universes, multi versus, you know, so that, that is interesting.
And I, and we've talked about the more involvement, the more
involvement in the more involvement.
And I like how you picked up on the doubt.
Yeah.
And for me it seemed kind of like frustration.
Yeah.
Like, Hey, I want to do something.
Well, it was a mix.
It was like, I want to do something, but I can't.
But also like this frustration of like, you've been warned,
dude, what are you doing?
You know, kinda frustrating.
Trey: Well, you know what he reminds me of it's that trope in storytelling,
where there is a person from say a fantastical side of a given universe
who is obsessed with the mundane.
And the easiest example I can think of is Arthur Weasley
from the Harry Potter world.
He was obsessed with non magic folks.
Trivial life things.
And he didn't have a certain understanding of it, but he was still mesmerized by it.
I feel like that's the trope we're seeing here with the watcher where
he's a little bit more all-knowing than someone like Arthur Weasley, but
it is that fixated fascination with the mundane, which given the status
of the watcher, something that the Dr.
Strange is doing can be mundane to him across a multiple.
Jude: Oh yeah.
Yeah.
Now I've found this interesting.
He said the watcher said you'd risk the safety of all others.
Yeah.
Uh, if he, if he did, like, he he's like, even if I could change it, it
would risk the safety of all others.
I'm assuming he's talking about that would risk the other multi versus
so they would have to be connected in some way, because otherwise, like
that reality is collapsing anyways.
So I'm curious as to.
Connective tissue or what point they're pushing towards to show
these multi-verse connections.
Cause clearly he's jumping from one to the next.
So, so there is this connective tissue that I'm assuming it's going to be
Trey: revealed identical tentacles.
It's right
Jude: there it is.
There it is.
Trey: It's no longer a multi-verse threads.
It's identical tentacle, right?
Jude: And every time on off a multi-verse dies,
it's kind of like an angel, an angel.
He gets his wings and multi-verse dies.
Trey: You know, I have one more thing to bring up in this act before we move on.
And it is the moment where.
Dr.
Strange has become incredibly powerful and he discovers that obeying is passing away.
And the first instinct that strange has is to use the time stone to save
obeying, but obeying stomps him.
And they have a really good conversation of the themes we're talking about of
letting go and obeying says, even in our world, death is part of the plan.
I enjoy this line a lot, because if you remember at the beginning of the
episode, one of the ways that we learned that strange is a lot more humble than
the one we're used to is Christine's like you perform this surgery and this
person lived, you did it successfully.
And strange says, yeah, well that was part of the plan.
Yeah.
That, that callback between the lines is.
Hammering home that point of what the heart of what
strange is doing is not wrong.
He is trying to fix things he's trying to help.
But again, I guess I keep using this word.
The tragedy is strange.
Doesn't realize there's a difference in helping people because you
truly are helping them or quote unquote, helping people because
it's making you feel better.
And it's, it's that horror that this is what strange thinks he wants, but it's
just, it's, it's a lesson he can't learn.
And, um, I don't know.
I guess I'm frustrated watching someone being so close to
learning it and they just can't,
Jude: you couldn't see how big my head was nodding when you said that.
So I'm just telling you, you know, yeah.
You hit it spot on.
It's one of those things where, you know, go back to the beginning
where it's like the drive, you know, in the movie losing his hands.
That was his identity.
He lost who he was.
And he was trying to reclaim that and he had to learn this humility,
but also learn that he was never going to be that person anymore.
And now this is who I am, and this is how that help people in this, his
drive to fix things was because he lost someone rather than himself.
Yeah.
And so what we see here is him losing himself in the process
of trying to save others.
Yeah.
And my note here is that sometimes the hardest person to reason
with is ourselves, you know, the, that we just can't sometimes.
And strange clearly couldn't.
Trey: Oh, man, it's tough.
Well, I think that's going to wrap up act two.
I feel like we've been tiptoeing a bit into act three.
So let's go ahead and jump into it, which this act is going to take
us from the quote unquote good.
Dr.
Strange confronted by the ancient ones, echo all the way through
to the end of the episode.
So Jude, we're starting with you again.
Uh, is there anywhere you'd like to start in this app?
I find
Jude: it fascinating that in the end he had to absorb himself to pull off
what he wanted to do, but bringing that other side of himself is what helped
him after it was too late, realize that he shouldn't be doing what he's doing.
So it's the ancient ones fault for like splitting them.
Trey: You know, it's so funny.
You said that because you asked me.
What do you think the choice was?
And I don't think you can say the choice was the ancient ones splitting them
because too many deviations are a happened before, but it does make me wonder
if there's anything prior to that the ancient one did, because I don't know.
It just, it's this feeling of the ancient one being a bad mentor.
How many times did she need to let him suffer through realizing he can't
change an absolute point before she's like, Hey, no, you can't do that.
Yeah.
So that's really funny that you said that.
Jude: Yeah.
I mean, I mean, that's what it took, you know what I mean?
When you think the split and there's two strangers and I mean, I guess, right.
The, the only one powerful enough to stop strangers strange.
So you get another strange, right.
But, but the show clearly split, you know, and here's your ying and yang, right?
The dark and the good side or what I've said earlier, the youngian.
Shadow, what are you capable of and confronting yourself and integrating that.
And so you can be whole in, in one way, you can read it and say, well,
he didn't have the opportunity.
Strange didn't have that opportunity to do so because the ancient ones split them.
Yeah.
And then once he did, it was too late.
So maybe in this universe, it was always supposed to be that way.
And that's why the TVA didn't step in
Trey: outside of the TVA.
I think you're circling in a space that I don't quite know how to articulate how
I'm feeling, because it worked for me that I understand that the quote unquote
good, strange isn't our protagonists.
And what we're really watching is a character fail, which is the quote
unquote bad, strange who makes the wrong choice, but splitting
the Stranges into two timelines.
Are we seeing the pitfalls and dealing in a multi-verse we're
it's what does it matter if one character makes the wrong choice?
If you just side step to the next universe and this character has made the right
choice and it threw me for a loop watching both of them in the same timeline exist.
And so I'm okay with it because it isn't the quote unquote good
strangest storyline, but it did feel a
Jude: little bit, right.
I'll be honest.
My thought was, oh, this is the strange, that helps spidey in the trailer.
That's my honest thought, my first time through.
And then when the whole world just collapsed on him, I was like, whoa, maybe
Trey: not.
Yeah.
So yeah.
This episode became one of those problems that took care of itself, right?
No remnants.
It felt
Jude: like, like we, we still heard his voice at the end.
Like strange wasn't gone.
Like he was alone.
And just this singularity that will be internal.
Trey: Yeah.
I just want to hammer home what you were talking about.
Cause it was, it was a note that I wrote down too.
I was shocked that this episode ended so heavily because he is trapped there
in that little purple crystallized sphere where he's just chanting.
I'm sorry.
I'm so sorry.
It wasn't supposed to be this way, having somebody, but you know, we talked about.
What, how does somebody who lose their heart get humbled?
He got humbled on a scale that is indescribable, where the
universe is gone because of him.
And he now has to live with me and the way that plays out into the credits, whereas
just very melancholy, very quiet music.
It just hit hard.
Yeah,
Jude: it was interesting.
It was interesting watching it a second time, knowing where it is.
Trey: Yeah, especially because again, I talked about how the quote unquote
good, strange is not a protagonist.
There's the moment where they are fighting and the evil, strange tramp, some in that
test where he conjures up Christine and she offers him everything that he wants.
And you see that good, strange is being tempted by it.
He is feeling like, oh yeah, this could be a possibility.
And then he sees a flash of Wong and he sees a flash of
New York deteriorating the sky.
And he did the right thing.
We watched the person overcome the struggle and still didn't succeed.
And it's, you have to watch that be set in motion as it gets to
the end point, where are evil, strange learns the horrible lesson.
And so on that second watch it's, it's unbearable.
You're watching like a, a train crash.
Jude: And we keep using the evil strange.
He really wasn't evil.
Trey: He had some pretty, he had the typical like
darkened eyes and like various
Jude: and visually right.
Or distinguishing between them.
But like, we're talking about someone who is dealing with, with grief on a
particular level, because he watched his heart die multiple times and you get shot
in a restaurant right in front of them.
And then wanting to bring that, that person back for simplicity sake.
Yes.
The evil strange.
But there's also this, this feeling bad for him in that he's not Vanos, you know,
or Raymond Sanders might not even be the right example, but you know what I mean?
Like he's not your typical evil villain here.
Trey: It's what we talked about before.
It's a, I guess the simplest way to put it.
No, I can't say that because antagonist or protagonist has
nothing to do with morality.
Um, and this one would be our protectiveness, but it it's, it's
a character who is not aligned with your, your ideas of what's.
Right.
But you still understand them.
Yeah.
Like that's, that's what makes those characters succeed.
Because even though you don't necessarily agree with what they're
doing, you see the, you see the work, you see where they're coming from and
why, where they're trying to get to.
And I think that's what I guess to put it in for me.
I understand what you're saying about like, it's not a hundred
percent fair to call him evil.
Jude: Right.
Because it is like go back to the youngian shadow because it is you it's that side
of you that, that you're capable of.
Right.
And can you accept that?
You're capable of that.
Trey: And I like, I mean, cause I think you've already mentioned,
uh, before, like how fitting is it a strange versus strange having to
literally reconcile with yourself?
Uh, you know, that fight, like I like that it does stem from that inability
to let go MIS misguided strange.
If I can change the way I refer to him now, the misguided strange, he
even says I'm too far to change now.
Right after the quote unquote, good strain says you need to let go.
So it is the, the literal manifestation of that internal turmoil between them too.
And it was really fun to get, to watch that fight because stepping back
on a more like superficial level of this episode, Uh, I've been looking
forward to this since the trailers came out, because I think one Dr.
Strange is perfect to deal in concepts of a multi-verse, but to his power set,
it lends itself wonderfully to animation.
So watching them go back and forth was just visually stunning.
Jude: Yes.
It was your, and your, your jet on, on that,
Trey: you know, and the last note I have is something we already kind
of touched on, but just to, to bring it back here at the end of this act,
if the watcher doesn't interfere with this, how bad do things have to
get for him to actually interfere?
Because we watched an entire universe gets snuffed out and he
just said, no, I won't help you.
Jude: But I also took it to him.
He wasn't able to,
is that, is that not how it goes?
Trey: What do you mean?
Jude: Like you don't, do you not think of that, that case?
Trey: Uh, I'm trying to think.
I feel like I'm trying to remember the dialogue.
Doesn't he say?
Like something I can't, even if I wanted to, or does he
just say like it's too late?
I
Jude: thought he said I can't, even if I wanted
Trey: to.
Yeah.
I don't know.
I guess maybe, maybe you're right.
And he just, even if he wanted to, he could
Jude: that's that's the way I took it.
Trey: Well, I think that's going to wrap it up for this act three,
which will bring us into our stray thoughts, which is going to be our
catch all for anything that didn't fit into the discussions we just had.
So starting with me this time, I've been praising him throughout the episode,
but I just want to say one more time.
Wong remained steadfast and was offering wonderful advice and guidance to Dr.
Strange as he was deteriorating.
And that is just Wong is like MVP.
I think, of this episode.
Jude: Absolutely.
Trey: Yeah.
My other stray thought is in that first episode, we did, I praise
the lighting of the episode.
Like just the animation style, the way they're able to cast
light just looks wonderful.
This episode in particular, when strange arrives in the jungle and
the lights just pouring through the fauna, that was incredibly beautiful.
And it builds to the moment where he steps out into the opening and you see
the library and it's just gorgeous.
And I love what they're doing here with lighting.
Yes.
Yeah.
Those are my straight that's.
Jude: Yeah.
That's you're good.
I, to my, my first straight thought I want to do go right after you I've mentioned
how I'm not a fan of the animation.
This episode, the animation style didn't bother me.
I'm not sure.
Why
Trey: do you think that speaks to the quality of this episode in particular?
Or is the style growing on you?
Jude: I feel like the style might've fit, the tone of this episode better
is, is kinda what, I'm, what I'm kind of circling around as a thought right now.
I got ya.
Uh, because I had just the, the animation style.
It didn't really take me out of it the way it did in the others.
So, yeah.
So there, I mentioned this before, it didn't feel as cartoony.
I didn't feel like you had as many of the cartoon lines.
Yeah.
You know, I'm right with you and Wong being MVP.
Last stray thought it was the flugel horn and the song was
feeling so good by Chuck man.
Go Neo, M a N G I O N E.
And it was the flugel horn.
The flugel horn is a type of trumpet or a chord at which I am
in seventh grade and eighth grade.
I played.
Trumpet.
So I should know.
I don't want to say, I should know.
That's not like a mic drop.
I'm saying like, I should, I should have known, like, I shouldn't have questioned
myself that that was not of my drop.
I sh I should know it was like, I should have known
Trey: now.
I'm curious what the, uh, the Dr.
Susan instrument is.
Jude: I have no idea.
Trey: Yeah.
I'll figure it out.
I'll have it by next time.
Jude: That's it?
That's my last stray
Trey: thought.
Fantastic.
Well, you know, we mentioned it earlier at the beginning of the episode where, you
know, part of the reason for following us on social media is a chance to hear some
of your first reactions to the episode.
So we're going to take some time here, uh, to read the submissions we
got over on our Instagram stories.
So, uh, the first one comes from friend Daniel.
It just reads harsh with an exclamation point.
Jude: Our next one comes from Newton.
John Nova.
I thought it was amazing.
They just keep getting better and better.
I wish they were longer I'm with them on that one.
I wish they were
Trey: longer.
I do too.
I think the increased link would help sell me on some of the moments like the pizza.
Partly a little bit more.
Finally, the last one comes in from our pod friend TK mixed
thoughts on first viewing, looking forward to watching it again.
So, yeah, I think I've, I think I'm a little bit closer
to her on that one as well.
Um, it really does take me a couple of watches to finally kind of get into
the rhythm of what they are doing.
Jude: Yeah.
Well, and it, again, it just went so dark that the others didn't.
You know, like, so like MCU, rewinds, tweet theory of like, oh,
this is like best case scenario.
Not in this episode.
Trey: Well, Hey, it depends on what MC rewind think is a best case.
I wonder what they feel about doctors.
Jude: Maybe that is, we didn't need, we didn't need the doctor.
Good.
Got rid of him.
Trey: Yeah.
The universe is looking up.
But yeah, we just wanted to thank all those that shared their thoughts.
On this episode.
It was really fun to get to read those here.
And if you're listening and you'd like to do the same, make sure you're
following us at MC you need to know on Twitter and Instagram, we'll be
reaching out to people to share what they thought of the episode there.
And if you want more of this show, you can find some extra bonus content that
is being put up on those feeds that does not make the cut of the episode.
A lot of great stuff there, there was one we put out this week with
something that we recorded before we actually quote unquote, started
the episode and it was really funny.
So you want to see that and make sure you're following us.
Jude: Of course, there's a discord link in the show notes.
And once you join there, you'll get to have regular conversations
with us and many others.
It's a great community here, all interested in the MCU.
Make sure you go to the roll aside and click on the emojis, which gets
you access to all the spoiler channel.
Also leave a rating and review on whatever podcast catcher you're using.
Feedback is always helpful to us.
And the best thing you can do for the pod is share with a friend.
Trey: Yeah.
We'd also like to thank Nick Sandy for the use of our theme song, which is his
rendition of the, of interesting find more of his work in a SoundCloud, which
is lingering in the show notes as well.
All right.
And that's going to do it.
Thank you so much for listening and thank you so much for doing this.
Thank you tray.
We'll see you all next week
record.
I am recording
Jude: Sam
Trey: recording.
Okay, so here we go.
You ready?
Jude: Oh, wow.
That's quick.
Yep.
Trey: 1,
Jude: 2, 3, go.
What was the giggle?
Because I was thinking when I said, oh, wow.
Quick.
I totally forgot about sinking up.
I thought you were about to launch into the MCU.
Welcome back to the, you need to know, like I was like, dude, I was like, okay.
Yeah, I'm ready.
So forgotten it.
Oh, we need to sync up.
Trey: What's so funny.
There was a small part of me.
That's like, I should throw Jude a curve ball just to meet you to go.
Hello and welcome back to,
Jude: so you were saying about to do.
Yeah.
I mean, I'm prepared.
Like I already have my outline.
I have that stop the stopwatch, ready to go.
Like I'm let's rock and roll.
Like I had,
Trey: well, what I've learned this week is your psychic apparent.
And you have a haunted car.
So that's like, it's a very supernatural for you.
Jude: Oh my gosh.
That was freaky.
Trey: That your reaction was gold.
Jude: Oh, damn.
It did go, man.
Oh yeah.
Freaky stuff, man.