1 00:00:00,616 --> 00:00:02,316 Hey everyone. 2 00:00:02,321 --> 00:00:02,896 Welcome. 3 00:00:03,296 --> 00:00:08,366 This is WP Product Talk, and this is our first time being live 4 00:00:08,546 --> 00:00:10,736 streaming where you actually get to. 5 00:00:11,276 --> 00:00:12,416 See our faces. 6 00:00:12,596 --> 00:00:13,346 This is weird. 7 00:00:13,406 --> 00:00:15,836 This is different, but, uh, but here we are. 8 00:00:15,896 --> 00:00:16,736 We're like it or not. 9 00:00:16,736 --> 00:00:19,556 So I hope some folks are watching along. 10 00:00:20,006 --> 00:00:20,576 Uh, ooh. 11 00:00:20,576 --> 00:00:24,116 We got some folks out in the street who are happy about that. 12 00:00:24,166 --> 00:00:25,316 We did do a vote, 13 00:00:25,316 --> 00:00:25,916 didn't we? 14 00:00:26,886 --> 00:00:27,436 We did. 15 00:00:27,476 --> 00:00:29,246 And I was completely overruled. 16 00:00:29,251 --> 00:00:30,296 And now here we are. 17 00:00:30,296 --> 00:00:34,036 So Katie comes on board and is shaking things up right. 18 00:00:34,511 --> 00:00:35,501 But everyone agreed. 19 00:00:35,501 --> 00:00:38,111 So here we are and I'm excited about it. 20 00:00:38,111 --> 00:00:40,181 I l I like this, uh, this format. 21 00:00:40,331 --> 00:00:44,021 And uh, it definitely makes, uh, visual facial cues add a lot to 22 00:00:44,021 --> 00:00:47,081 conversation a lot anyway, so yeah. 23 00:00:47,111 --> 00:00:50,231 Plus I'm probably gonna download it and make an audio version too. 24 00:00:50,381 --> 00:00:50,891 So, cool. 25 00:00:50,891 --> 00:00:54,071 When this is WB product Talk and this is a place where we talk 26 00:00:54,071 --> 00:00:55,451 about, uh, what it's like to. 27 00:00:56,646 --> 00:00:57,906 A WordPress product shop. 28 00:00:57,966 --> 00:01:00,966 Uh, we talk about hiring, we talk about firing. 29 00:01:00,966 --> 00:01:04,056 We talk about building, we talk about sun setting. 30 00:01:04,446 --> 00:01:08,586 Uh, we talk about any and all things related to pains and joys 31 00:01:08,586 --> 00:01:10,656 of earning a WordPress product. 32 00:01:11,076 --> 00:01:14,706 Um, and we've been doing this for, I think this is episode 14 now. 33 00:01:15,036 --> 00:01:17,256 Um, and, uh, we got more in store for sure. 34 00:01:17,346 --> 00:01:20,596 So I wanna go around, introduce everyone. 35 00:01:20,601 --> 00:01:21,996 Katie as co-host. 36 00:01:22,086 --> 00:01:23,526 Katie, can you introduce yourself to the 37 00:01:23,526 --> 00:01:23,976 world? 38 00:01:24,376 --> 00:01:29,086 Hi, I'm Katie Keith, co-founder and a c e o at Bantu Plugins. 39 00:01:29,386 --> 00:01:35,096 We've, um, been selling plug-ins since 2016, having switched from previously 40 00:01:35,101 --> 00:01:37,576 designing WordPress websites for clients. 41 00:01:37,846 --> 00:01:42,916 We mostly specialize in WooCommerce and we've got 20 premium plug-ins now. 42 00:01:42,916 --> 00:01:46,396 So we have lots of different plugins for different needs, and I really love 43 00:01:46,396 --> 00:01:50,956 talking to people about different elements of the business side of selling plug. 44 00:01:52,261 --> 00:01:52,921 Excellent. 45 00:01:53,401 --> 00:01:56,161 And I'm Matt Crowell, uh, founder of Give wp. 46 00:01:56,161 --> 00:01:59,851 Last year and now almost two years ago, we were sold to LiquidWeb, 47 00:01:59,881 --> 00:02:05,311 so I'm now doing marketing and customer success at, uh, stellar wp. 48 00:02:05,581 --> 00:02:11,281 I've been building plugins and running shops for since 2014 and, uh, excited 49 00:02:11,281 --> 00:02:13,261 to, uh, talk about more of these things. 50 00:02:13,261 --> 00:02:13,861 And today we. 51 00:02:14,216 --> 00:02:17,876 Special guest, Erin Edwards is here from W P M U Dev. 52 00:02:17,936 --> 00:02:19,286 Erin, can you introduce yourself? 53 00:02:19,976 --> 00:02:20,276 Yeah, 54 00:02:20,276 --> 00:02:20,846 I'm Erin. 55 00:02:20,906 --> 00:02:25,586 I've been the c t O at W P M U Dev for, uh, I'm not sure how many years, 56 00:02:25,586 --> 00:02:27,566 but I've been with them for 12 or so. 57 00:02:28,226 --> 00:02:31,556 And, uh, we've grown a lot from being a whole lot of plug-in shops 58 00:02:31,556 --> 00:02:33,506 to moving into a lot more services. 59 00:02:33,506 --> 00:02:36,776 And also I have a few side projects that I've built infinite 60 00:02:36,776 --> 00:02:38,426 uploads for cloud storage. 61 00:02:38,426 --> 00:02:42,176 And imagine AI just bringing AI image generation 62 00:02:42,176 --> 00:02:43,106 into WordPress. 63 00:02:44,431 --> 00:02:44,941 Nice. 64 00:02:44,941 --> 00:02:45,601 Excellent. 65 00:02:46,351 --> 00:02:48,301 Um, sorry, I'm playing around with all the fun tools. 66 00:02:48,301 --> 00:02:50,041 This thing has No, that would appear. 67 00:02:50,581 --> 00:02:51,061 Yeah. 68 00:02:51,661 --> 00:02:55,321 Uh, I was just trying to see if I could like Andrew's response here, 69 00:02:55,381 --> 00:02:57,181 but, um, it's not letting me do that. 70 00:02:57,781 --> 00:02:58,201 Cool. 71 00:02:58,261 --> 00:02:58,561 All right. 72 00:02:58,561 --> 00:03:02,951 Uh, today we are talking about, uh, how to sify your work press. 73 00:03:03,406 --> 00:03:07,906 Product, and this is a subject that Erin recommended and suggested reached out 74 00:03:07,936 --> 00:03:13,036 to us about, and Katie and I both have not actually physically done this, uh, 75 00:03:13,126 --> 00:03:16,666 but we have considered it and it is a really interesting subject and one that 76 00:03:16,666 --> 00:03:20,776 I think is actually trending upward in the WordPress space in general. 77 00:03:21,076 --> 00:03:22,606 So I'm excited to talk about it. 78 00:03:22,996 --> 00:03:26,836 The way we always kick it off first is go around the horn and talk about why we feel 79 00:03:26,836 --> 00:03:28,876 like this is an important or relevant. 80 00:03:29,146 --> 00:03:31,096 Subject, I kind of tipped my hand. 81 00:03:31,396 --> 00:03:35,956 I feel like it's, uh, it's an up and coming, uh, and continuing to grow aspect 82 00:03:35,986 --> 00:03:38,386 of, uh, WordPress products personally. 83 00:03:38,446 --> 00:03:42,676 And I also see it as definitely having some advantages when you want 84 00:03:42,676 --> 00:03:46,306 to be able to serve types of content or do types of functionality that. 85 00:03:46,736 --> 00:03:49,766 Shouldn't be limited to a WordPress website specifically. 86 00:03:50,156 --> 00:03:53,936 Uh, and I think it's a really cool model for certain types of products for sure. 87 00:03:54,086 --> 00:03:57,896 It makes a lot of sense, and I think it also is, has great opportunity 88 00:03:57,896 --> 00:04:00,026 in terms of, uh, how it can scale. 89 00:04:00,056 --> 00:04:03,476 I do see it as a good option for, for scaling products a little 90 00:04:03,476 --> 00:04:04,766 bit more quickly sometimes. 91 00:04:05,276 --> 00:04:06,836 Uh, that's some of my takes on it. 92 00:04:06,836 --> 00:04:07,226 Katie, what's. 93 00:04:07,626 --> 00:04:13,696 Yeah, the scalability thing is, so from a business perspective, everyone's 94 00:04:13,701 --> 00:04:17,976 always looking to the next step and the next step toward scalability. 95 00:04:17,976 --> 00:04:21,726 Really, a lot of people who provide client services are looking for the 96 00:04:21,731 --> 00:04:26,176 next step, which they often see as providing any kind of product that they 97 00:04:26,176 --> 00:04:28,146 can build once and sell multiple times. 98 00:04:28,476 --> 00:04:33,751 So certainly when we were a WordPress agency, Our kind of holy grail was 99 00:04:33,751 --> 00:04:37,771 to move upwards to selling plug-ins or themes, although we didn't 100 00:04:37,771 --> 00:04:41,881 end up doing the theme thing, and then now we are a pluggin company. 101 00:04:41,881 --> 00:04:44,191 We are like, yeah, it's great selling plug-ins. 102 00:04:44,191 --> 00:04:48,511 It's so much more scalable than client work was for us, but what's the next step? 103 00:04:48,571 --> 00:04:49,381 Oh, sass. 104 00:04:49,381 --> 00:04:51,031 That's even more scalable. 105 00:04:51,271 --> 00:04:53,061 And there's various different reasons in. 106 00:04:53,771 --> 00:04:54,261 Business model. 107 00:04:54,501 --> 00:04:58,011 So I think as well as having benefits for the customer for certain types 108 00:04:58,011 --> 00:05:01,851 of products, I think from a business perspective it's very interesting. 109 00:05:03,021 --> 00:05:03,651 Absolutely. 110 00:05:03,921 --> 00:05:04,311 Yeah. 111 00:05:04,941 --> 00:05:07,011 Aaron, you got a lot of thoughts on this one. 112 00:05:07,281 --> 00:05:09,921 Why is this so important, or why is it so significant? 113 00:05:10,731 --> 00:05:10,911 Yeah, 114 00:05:10,911 --> 00:05:11,271 I do. 115 00:05:11,631 --> 00:05:14,771 Just kinda back our history at W Wpm U Dev we used to. 116 00:05:15,501 --> 00:05:18,801 A few more than a hundred plug-ins and various themes 117 00:05:18,801 --> 00:05:19,971 and different things like that. 118 00:05:20,031 --> 00:05:24,741 And the problem was our customers treated US App Store, you pay and then 119 00:05:25,151 --> 00:05:26,361 download everything and then cancel. 120 00:05:27,201 --> 00:05:31,281 And uh, I know that a lot of plug-in businesses have done a lot better with 121 00:05:31,281 --> 00:05:34,611 that, with annual licensing and things like that, but still it's kind of 122 00:05:34,611 --> 00:05:37,871 mindset that your customers have and. 123 00:05:38,526 --> 00:05:42,816 For me, I'm more of a developer, so I'm kind of approach it 124 00:05:42,816 --> 00:05:43,926 from the technical side. 125 00:05:43,926 --> 00:05:46,926 So that's kind of my focus will be today as we're discussing this. 126 00:05:46,926 --> 00:05:52,536 But the first thing from my experience is that WordPress plugins are compared 127 00:05:52,536 --> 00:05:56,556 to a lot of products are really hard to support, maintain, and I think one of the 128 00:05:56,586 --> 00:06:02,586 biggest things is just because WordPress is such a open ecosystem that you. 129 00:06:03,881 --> 00:06:07,021 Numerous hosting providers, all with different configurations. 130 00:06:07,021 --> 00:06:11,371 You have any number of theme and plugin combinations that can be 131 00:06:11,371 --> 00:06:15,691 installed on customer websites and all those things often cause 132 00:06:15,696 --> 00:06:18,001 compatibility issues for your plugins. 133 00:06:18,006 --> 00:06:22,171 That becomes a huge amount of work to try to make sure you're compatible with 134 00:06:22,176 --> 00:06:24,631 everyone and all those kind of things. 135 00:06:24,631 --> 00:06:27,961 Like for example, at W P M U Dev, we have a QA team and actually 136 00:06:27,961 --> 00:06:29,311 part of their job is literal. 137 00:06:29,841 --> 00:06:34,161 Whenever there's a major release of our product to test it with Yost and all 138 00:06:34,161 --> 00:06:38,401 these jet pack and all these popular products that many of our customers 139 00:06:38,406 --> 00:06:42,681 also have installed to make sure that we're not breaking with them, 140 00:06:42,801 --> 00:06:44,931 it just becomes a really big hassle. 141 00:06:45,261 --> 00:06:49,131 Also, the update system for WordPress, that's another thing. 142 00:06:49,136 --> 00:06:53,961 When you have software or code that needs to change frequently, it's very common. 143 00:06:54,361 --> 00:06:58,296 your for WordPress website for customers to not update the plugin or 144 00:06:58,296 --> 00:07:01,536 for there to be a huge delay before they update to the newer version. 145 00:07:02,556 --> 00:07:05,526 Things will break very often, and then you get support tickets and it's 146 00:07:05,526 --> 00:07:07,236 like, you haven't updated it yet. 147 00:07:07,296 --> 00:07:09,006 We pushed a fixture that months ago. 148 00:07:09,606 --> 00:07:09,696 Oh. 149 00:07:09,726 --> 00:07:11,586 So that, that becomes a big hassle too. 150 00:07:11,986 --> 00:07:16,366 And then the other point that I was, that I've noticed is the hassle of 151 00:07:16,746 --> 00:07:17,626 maintaining like a free and pro. 152 00:07:18,661 --> 00:07:22,531 So a lot of WordPress plugins, their model is to have a free version on 153 00:07:22,531 --> 00:07:26,281 the repo, and then you have a pro premium version that usually has 154 00:07:26,281 --> 00:07:29,221 to be downloaded from the site. 155 00:07:29,341 --> 00:07:32,311 And so that means two separate code bases to maintain that. 156 00:07:32,371 --> 00:07:37,561 That causes a lot of hassle for developer and also even just the 157 00:07:37,561 --> 00:07:41,362 process of switching from free to pro when a user upgrades or purchases your 158 00:07:41,561 --> 00:07:41,761 product. 159 00:07:42,601 --> 00:07:47,431 Yeah, let's parse a little bit of this cuz there's a lot of different kind of details 160 00:07:47,431 --> 00:07:49,681 in, in what you're highlighting there. 161 00:07:50,041 --> 00:07:54,991 Uh, like for example, there are lots of different types of fast connector plugins. 162 00:07:55,051 --> 00:07:55,141 Mm-hmm. 163 00:07:55,381 --> 00:08:00,001 , like one of the most, or two of the most frequently used ones currently would 164 00:08:00,001 --> 00:08:04,531 be like a payment gateway, for example, is definitely a SaaS essentially. 165 00:08:04,921 --> 00:08:09,401 Uh, and also, Um, any plugin that connects with an email provider 166 00:08:09,431 --> 00:08:13,361 like MailChimp or, or Constant Contact or active campaign mm-hmm. 167 00:08:13,601 --> 00:08:18,131 these, the service is happening offsite and it's having to be connected on 168 00:08:18,136 --> 00:08:22,811 the WordPress site specifically, and a lot of the work is offloaded off 169 00:08:22,816 --> 00:08:26,951 of the site and it's really just like a, a word, a connector in some ways. 170 00:08:27,161 --> 00:08:27,431 Right. 171 00:08:27,461 --> 00:08:28,691 But even that connector. 172 00:08:29,776 --> 00:08:31,936 , it can't be static and stagnant. 173 00:08:31,996 --> 00:08:36,256 A connector has to be updated too fairly regularly, so you don't totally lose 174 00:08:36,676 --> 00:08:38,866 or you don't totally abandon that. 175 00:08:38,926 --> 00:08:41,476 Uh, need to keep a plug-in updated, right? 176 00:08:41,566 --> 00:08:41,746 Yeah. 177 00:08:41,746 --> 00:08:46,366 Depending on the use case, there's gonna be, uh, some amount of code 178 00:08:46,366 --> 00:08:49,186 that's gonna be on the WordPress site and some amount of code that 179 00:08:49,186 --> 00:08:50,626 you can have on your own servers. 180 00:08:50,631 --> 00:08:56,176 So in my opinion, the more you can move to your servers, then the less. 181 00:08:56,961 --> 00:08:58,846 , you have to worry about those maintenance burdens. 182 00:08:58,846 --> 00:08:58,936 Mm-hmm. 183 00:08:59,176 --> 00:09:00,436 , you know, it depends on the use case, 184 00:09:00,436 --> 00:09:01,006 obviously. 185 00:09:01,636 --> 00:09:01,846 Yeah. 186 00:09:01,846 --> 00:09:07,156 So let's, um, for example, if you're able to do that, then that means you're, 187 00:09:07,186 --> 00:09:12,076 you're in one way or another, putting a lot of functionality into the WordPress 188 00:09:12,081 --> 00:09:13,936 website that originates somewhere else. 189 00:09:13,941 --> 00:09:15,256 Is that what you're suggesting? 190 00:09:16,276 --> 00:09:20,626 If you can add features and whatnot on the SAS itself, and then those 191 00:09:20,626 --> 00:09:24,046 are just embedded onto the WordPress website, is that like a good example? 192 00:09:24,616 --> 00:09:25,066 Yeah. 193 00:09:25,456 --> 00:09:25,726 Yeah. 194 00:09:25,726 --> 00:09:27,586 I'm gonna jump into specific examples. 195 00:09:27,586 --> 00:09:32,256 Obvious, obviously, which I think we'll do that shortly, but 196 00:09:32,256 --> 00:09:32,536 yeah. 197 00:09:33,526 --> 00:09:37,306 Yeah, I just wanna make sure like we, we get some of the details covered 198 00:09:37,306 --> 00:09:38,626 so everybody's on the same page. 199 00:09:38,686 --> 00:09:39,346 Yeah, for sure. 200 00:09:39,346 --> 00:09:44,176 And, and another thing to consider too is often features, there's a lot of features 201 00:09:44,176 --> 00:09:50,446 that could be implemented much better on like the server side because maybe p 202 00:09:50,446 --> 00:09:55,646 h p you need certain PHP extensions or certain specialized software installed on. 203 00:09:56,161 --> 00:09:57,151 The user server. 204 00:09:57,151 --> 00:09:58,501 That just doesn't work that way. 205 00:09:58,831 --> 00:09:59,041 Great. 206 00:09:59,041 --> 00:10:03,421 Examples of that are like whether it's processing images or video or 207 00:10:03,421 --> 00:10:06,031 all kinds of different things like that, or services that you need to 208 00:10:06,031 --> 00:10:07,951 provide from the cloud as a feature. 209 00:10:08,821 --> 00:10:10,771 Yeah, absolutely. 210 00:10:11,491 --> 00:10:17,011 And Katie, other thoughts on why this is a important subject for product owners? 211 00:10:17,411 --> 00:10:20,231 what, uh, Aaron describe sounds amazing to me. 212 00:10:20,231 --> 00:10:24,551 Just getting rid of the compatibility issues because it's all on the 213 00:10:24,551 --> 00:10:26,591 server and embedded and so on. 214 00:10:27,071 --> 00:10:31,151 Um, because obviously running a plug-in company with lots of plug-ins, we 215 00:10:31,156 --> 00:10:34,151 constantly are having those dependencies. 216 00:10:34,156 --> 00:10:36,911 We've got, we use ghost inspect for testing and we've got 217 00:10:36,911 --> 00:10:38,731 endless suites of automated. 218 00:10:39,241 --> 00:10:43,711 In like 20 themes and with lots of popular plugins and there's always 219 00:10:43,711 --> 00:10:45,661 errors or something you have to fix. 220 00:10:45,661 --> 00:10:48,631 So taking away that, it sounds very attractive to 221 00:10:48,921 --> 00:10:49,001 me. 222 00:10:50,351 --> 00:10:51,191 . Absolutely. 223 00:10:51,281 --> 00:10:54,701 In many ways it's one of those things where, uh, we've just kind of times 224 00:10:54,701 --> 00:10:55,931 drawing and go, well, it's WordPress. 225 00:10:55,931 --> 00:10:57,161 This is how everything works. 226 00:10:57,161 --> 00:11:01,691 This is how things are, and that what I hear Air and Payne is have to be that way. 227 00:11:01,721 --> 00:11:04,811 You don't have to always deal with these types of, of burdens. 228 00:11:04,816 --> 00:11:07,151 It's like, who doesn't deal with licensing trouble? 229 00:11:07,151 --> 00:11:08,981 Everybody deals with licensing issues. 230 00:11:09,071 --> 00:11:10,101 You don't have to. 231 00:11:10,101 --> 00:11:13,601 I, but even like with the like SAS connector types, Aaron, we're still 232 00:11:13,601 --> 00:11:15,311 gonna be some sort of authentication. 233 00:11:15,316 --> 00:11:15,881 Often. 234 00:11:15,911 --> 00:11:17,021 It'll be a simple. 235 00:11:17,486 --> 00:11:20,306 plug in on, on the WordPress site, and they're gonna have to authenticate 236 00:11:20,306 --> 00:11:23,006 their connection to your server in one form or another, right? 237 00:11:23,606 --> 00:11:24,236 Yes. 238 00:11:24,926 --> 00:11:28,706 But that can be done in very seamless ways. 239 00:11:28,706 --> 00:11:33,416 They can register and do everything right from within the plugin interface. 240 00:11:33,416 --> 00:11:33,476 Yeah. 241 00:11:33,596 --> 00:11:35,306 Just interacting with your A p I. 242 00:11:35,636 --> 00:11:35,966 Yeah. 243 00:11:36,386 --> 00:11:36,776 Some other. 244 00:11:37,641 --> 00:11:42,416 like benefits that you might not consider with sasying is just different things to 245 00:11:42,416 --> 00:11:44,336 do with conversions and the upgrade flow. 246 00:11:44,816 --> 00:11:49,196 So we already talked about like free pro version, like I've, we have. 247 00:11:49,976 --> 00:11:54,296 A number of like free and introversions for W P M U Dev still, but that 248 00:11:54,296 --> 00:11:57,881 becomes a big hassle when users have to upgrade from free to pro. 249 00:11:58,436 --> 00:12:01,106 And then you wanna make sure if they activate pro, it doesn't 250 00:12:01,106 --> 00:12:04,496 cause errors and that the free ones somehow gets deactivated. 251 00:12:04,501 --> 00:12:08,936 And then, um, a lot of plug-ins that have perversion, then you have to like 252 00:12:08,936 --> 00:12:12,926 the license key and then paste that in and, and this whole process, that's just. 253 00:12:13,396 --> 00:12:16,906 It causes a lot of friction for users, I think, compared to a 254 00:12:16,906 --> 00:12:19,246 simple form rate in your WordPress. 255 00:12:20,606 --> 00:12:23,216 Where you just log in or connect in. 256 00:12:23,336 --> 00:12:23,576 Yeah. 257 00:12:23,576 --> 00:12:26,066 And then it's just connected and that's how it works. 258 00:12:26,666 --> 00:12:26,786 Yeah. 259 00:12:26,786 --> 00:12:27,236 So I think there's 260 00:12:27,236 --> 00:12:29,396 benefits, but it's never simple with a plugin. 261 00:12:29,696 --> 00:12:30,596 Like I love that. 262 00:12:30,596 --> 00:12:34,586 With sas you have control, uh, for example, three trials. 263 00:12:34,586 --> 00:12:34,766 Yeah. 264 00:12:34,766 --> 00:12:36,326 You've got to code it and things. 265 00:12:36,511 --> 00:12:41,371 But it's much easier because if they don't continue by definition, they've lost that 266 00:12:41,371 --> 00:12:43,891 access or they go down to your free plan. 267 00:12:44,281 --> 00:12:47,401 Uh, I'm sure we'll have a episode on this another time, but there 268 00:12:47,406 --> 00:12:51,601 isn't a perfect licensing solution available for selling WordPress 269 00:12:51,601 --> 00:12:53,821 products as I most people will know. 270 00:12:54,121 --> 00:12:59,296 And having things like free trials can be very, You are using, for example, 271 00:12:59,296 --> 00:13:04,156 easy digital downloads or commerce or something, and I've got to really think 272 00:13:04,156 --> 00:13:08,056 about how to revoke that functionality in a way that's consistent with G 273 00:13:08,056 --> 00:13:09,916 P L and all of that kind of thing. 274 00:13:10,216 --> 00:13:13,846 With sas, I think it would probably be easier, although you know better than me. 275 00:13:14,246 --> 00:13:15,296 . Yeah, for sure. 276 00:13:15,416 --> 00:13:19,376 Especially if out of the free pro pro versions of plugins you 277 00:13:19,376 --> 00:13:22,676 have, you're actually adding like extra code in that plugin. 278 00:13:22,766 --> 00:13:26,396 And then you also have to think about like piracy and things like that. 279 00:13:26,396 --> 00:13:30,356 People can null the plugins and release your pro versions. 280 00:13:30,361 --> 00:13:35,156 And because all that code is in there and it's open source when it's a SaaS or a 281 00:13:35,161 --> 00:13:36,936 lot of your services are provided by a. 282 00:13:37,381 --> 00:13:39,781 , the SaaS side does not have to be open source. 283 00:13:39,841 --> 00:13:43,321 That's kind of a thing loophole with G P L and the WordPress repo. 284 00:13:43,921 --> 00:13:47,191 Uh, so you can have a lot of that business logic, things like that, 285 00:13:47,281 --> 00:13:51,511 that can be remain secret and remain in a way that competitors can't 286 00:13:52,231 --> 00:13:53,881 necessarily steal it or hack it. 287 00:13:53,881 --> 00:13:53,941 Yeah. 288 00:13:54,061 --> 00:13:55,021 Because it's provided 289 00:13:55,021 --> 00:13:55,351 by you. 290 00:13:56,171 --> 00:13:57,131 Yeah, absolutely. 291 00:13:57,551 --> 00:14:01,031 Andrew Palmer is watching and uh, has a couple of interesting comments. 292 00:14:01,061 --> 00:14:04,981 Uh, he says he uses a hybrid version plugin, uses SAS for main functions, 293 00:14:04,986 --> 00:14:06,431 but still has to be installed. 294 00:14:06,431 --> 00:14:08,771 And of course now he has a Chrome extension too. 295 00:14:08,771 --> 00:14:09,581 That's interesting. 296 00:14:10,211 --> 00:14:14,771 Uh, as for a dedicated sas not plan to go there quite yet, do think 297 00:14:14,771 --> 00:14:18,341 going like full on dedicated sass is kind of jumping into the deep end. 298 00:14:18,641 --> 00:14:22,721 Can be, but there's also lots of micro sass too that do really cool stuff. 299 00:14:23,081 --> 00:14:24,671 He has a follow up here as well. 300 00:14:25,286 --> 00:14:26,456 I think is interesting. 301 00:14:26,456 --> 00:14:28,196 Yo, for Shopify is a SaaS. 302 00:14:28,196 --> 00:14:29,636 Absolutely, that's true. 303 00:14:29,906 --> 00:14:33,206 And some of the functions of yos for WordPress itself are served from a SaaS. 304 00:14:33,206 --> 00:14:36,476 Like in many ways we always think of Yost in particular as 305 00:14:36,476 --> 00:14:38,516 just like the SEO plugin itself. 306 00:14:38,516 --> 00:14:43,046 But some of the functionality is actually ified and they grew into that. 307 00:14:43,226 --> 00:14:44,486 Wasn't like that always. 308 00:14:44,546 --> 00:14:49,256 I'm, there's, uh, specifically some of the, I think some of the tone features. 309 00:14:50,186 --> 00:14:53,546 Ways that they can, you can validate the SEO on page. 310 00:14:53,546 --> 00:14:56,186 Things like that, I think are all last things. 311 00:14:56,726 --> 00:14:59,516 Those are some interesting, uh, examples actually. 312 00:15:00,356 --> 00:15:00,626 Yeah. 313 00:15:00,836 --> 00:15:01,466 Thanks Andrew. 314 00:15:01,466 --> 00:15:02,336 Keep it coming, man. 315 00:15:03,086 --> 00:15:03,176 Mm-hmm. 316 00:15:03,416 --> 00:15:06,926 . We actually, I think Andrew's on our short list to get on the show, right Katie? 317 00:15:07,326 --> 00:15:07,596 . Yeah. 318 00:15:07,596 --> 00:15:08,646 Weren't you gonna invite him 319 00:15:08,651 --> 00:15:09,426 for next week? 320 00:15:10,046 --> 00:15:10,366 ? Yeah. 321 00:15:10,366 --> 00:15:10,646 Yeah. 322 00:15:10,646 --> 00:15:14,616 If he's fresh from, uh, word Camp Asia, then Andrew, you're on notice, man. 323 00:15:15,016 --> 00:15:15,706 . Uh, cool. 324 00:15:15,796 --> 00:15:18,856 Next subject is what we like to call story time. 325 00:15:19,456 --> 00:15:24,276 We wanna talk a little bit about our own experiences with Sasying products or. 326 00:15:25,246 --> 00:15:29,326 In Katie's case, and in my case, our experience of SaaSified products 327 00:15:29,326 --> 00:15:32,566 and as product owners, every time I interact with a new product in one 328 00:15:32,566 --> 00:15:34,786 way or another, I am hyper critical. 329 00:15:35,206 --> 00:15:37,576 Uh, and I'm like, oh, this is not the best experience. 330 00:15:37,576 --> 00:15:39,196 Uh, they could be doing this instead. 331 00:15:39,286 --> 00:15:40,216 Uh, but uh, yeah. 332 00:15:40,216 --> 00:15:41,566 So let's talk a little bit about that. 333 00:15:41,626 --> 00:15:43,306 Uh, Katie, do you wanna jump into it? 334 00:15:43,706 --> 00:15:44,126 Yep. 335 00:15:44,126 --> 00:15:44,996 Sounds good. 336 00:15:45,326 --> 00:15:49,256 So I think I'm going to talk about, I suppose a challenge, a dilemma 337 00:15:49,256 --> 00:15:53,246 for me as a plug-in business owner in going down the SAS route. 338 00:15:53,666 --> 00:15:58,736 So we've identified actually on our strategic growth plan for last year, 339 00:15:58,736 --> 00:16:03,836 2022, that we aspired to move in that direction and develop some kind of 340 00:16:03,836 --> 00:16:06,896 SaaS product, and we have a formula. 341 00:16:07,336 --> 00:16:12,886 which we built with CIS as our marketing company for evaluating new product ideas. 342 00:16:13,696 --> 00:16:18,016 And so we look at various factors to say, is it a good idea, uh, different 343 00:16:18,106 --> 00:16:20,236 ideas for new, uh, WordPress plugins. 344 00:16:20,506 --> 00:16:23,146 And one of those factors from the beginning of last 345 00:16:23,146 --> 00:16:25,501 year is, Can you satisfy it? 346 00:16:25,531 --> 00:16:27,181 Is it that sort of product? 347 00:16:27,721 --> 00:16:33,001 Which brings me to a dilemma I think we have with the satisfying of 348 00:16:33,001 --> 00:16:36,031 products, which is that you should only do it where it's actually 349 00:16:36,031 --> 00:16:38,071 relevant for that type of product. 350 00:16:38,431 --> 00:16:39,751 So there is some product. 351 00:16:39,831 --> 00:16:44,541 That it just makes sense to have the whole thing in the WordPress admin and for us 352 00:16:44,541 --> 00:16:49,611 as a W Commerce, largely specialist W Commerce company, all the ideas we have, 353 00:16:49,611 --> 00:16:54,321 it just wouldn't make sense generally to take it out of WordPress and have a SaaS. 354 00:16:54,651 --> 00:16:58,581 That would all be about us trying to improve our business model in the ways 355 00:16:58,581 --> 00:17:00,621 we've just discussed, rather than any. 356 00:17:01,206 --> 00:17:03,726 To the customer in terms of the functionality. 357 00:17:04,056 --> 00:17:08,616 So all the ideas that we have assessed in the last year for new products have 358 00:17:08,616 --> 00:17:15,246 had a zero on the satisfying scale, but we know how to do what we do and 359 00:17:15,246 --> 00:17:16,926 how to build successful products. 360 00:17:16,931 --> 00:17:20,706 So we've continued with those new ideas, despite failing 361 00:17:20,706 --> 00:17:22,746 that on every idea we've had. 362 00:17:23,046 --> 00:17:25,926 So one day it might come to us, but I. 363 00:17:26,286 --> 00:17:28,116 I don't wanna do it just for the sake of it. 364 00:17:28,446 --> 00:17:30,666 That's what's making me hesitate. 365 00:17:31,416 --> 00:17:32,736 Yeah, absolutely. 366 00:17:33,876 --> 00:17:34,356 Yeah. 367 00:17:34,746 --> 00:17:38,106 On our end, we actually, were right on the, and I've talked 368 00:17:38,106 --> 00:17:39,666 about this on the show in the past. 369 00:17:40,026 --> 00:17:43,806 We actually were right on the verge of going full on sass a while back. 370 00:17:43,806 --> 00:17:45,236 We were going to jump in and do. 371 00:17:45,731 --> 00:17:50,561 A big donation platform, uh, that we were really excited about, and there 372 00:17:50,561 --> 00:17:52,061 were a lot of pros and cons to it. 373 00:17:52,121 --> 00:17:55,481 Uh, the product itself, we were, we had a lot of high confidence in it. 374 00:17:55,691 --> 00:18:01,031 And, uh, the, a approach was, would be that, uh, you build stuff on the platform. 375 00:18:01,651 --> 00:18:06,181 and then you could embed them in different places regardless of WordPress or not. 376 00:18:06,181 --> 00:18:11,791 The advantage there of course, was like, yeah, WordPress owns 40% of the internet, 377 00:18:11,796 --> 00:18:15,961 but that means there's 60% out there still that can't use gift WP at all. 378 00:18:16,471 --> 00:18:19,291 So let's open up our market and try to reach some more folks. 379 00:18:19,291 --> 00:18:23,911 And I think that's definitely a good, valid, uh, reason to head out there. 380 00:18:24,331 --> 00:18:25,951 A lot of the complexity was. 381 00:18:26,876 --> 00:18:31,106 Was also things like, uh, crane and owning all of that data selves rather 382 00:18:31,106 --> 00:18:35,156 than a distributed plugin means that, uh, they have to have responsibility 383 00:18:35,161 --> 00:18:39,236 themselves for all the donation data that they're storing on their websites. 384 00:18:39,686 --> 00:18:43,766 You start running donations off on your platform and now 385 00:18:43,771 --> 00:18:45,626 there's a big liability in there. 386 00:18:45,866 --> 00:18:49,646 And also like play truthfully or press.org is a great funnel. 387 00:18:49,826 --> 00:18:53,516 When you are a freemium product, you have a huge plugin base, a 388 00:18:53,516 --> 00:18:54,956 huge audience, so you get to. 389 00:18:55,236 --> 00:18:56,886 Market to with a free product. 390 00:18:57,216 --> 00:19:02,256 And if you go full on SaaS, then um, that's actually taken away 391 00:19:02,256 --> 00:19:05,256 and you really have to earn every single customer that you get. 392 00:19:05,856 --> 00:19:09,546 So these hybrid examples, like Andrew's mentioning and the ones that, uh, 393 00:19:10,026 --> 00:19:12,846 Andrew and Aaron are mentioning as well. 394 00:19:13,271 --> 00:19:14,921 I think are really interesting. 395 00:19:15,521 --> 00:19:19,001 I, there's a few other small products I've come across recently. 396 00:19:19,001 --> 00:19:22,361 There's one that I really like called Mighty Share, which is one of those, 397 00:19:22,421 --> 00:19:26,831 it generates your featured images or your social share images for your blog 398 00:19:26,836 --> 00:19:31,271 post automatically based on a logo and colors and the text of the article. 399 00:19:31,676 --> 00:19:34,406 And they actually are a SaaS connector. 400 00:19:34,766 --> 00:19:38,306 They actually are generating that image on their server for you. 401 00:19:38,306 --> 00:19:42,446 And then, uh, and then you're serving that up with a URL that they generate. 402 00:19:42,626 --> 00:19:46,316 And, uh, they actually reached out to me as they were building it out to say, 403 00:19:46,316 --> 00:19:47,816 what do you think of this as a SaaS? 404 00:19:47,876 --> 00:19:50,756 Or do you think that I should try to do it all on the WordPress website? 405 00:19:50,756 --> 00:19:53,846 And a lot of the things that, that Aaron brought up of like the 406 00:19:53,846 --> 00:19:59,336 difficulty of doing that kind of image generation on the WordPress server. 407 00:20:00,221 --> 00:20:03,701 some of the reasons why they decided to go SaaS or SaaS connector. 408 00:20:04,271 --> 00:20:06,911 So it's a fully a hundred percent WordPress product, but, 409 00:20:06,911 --> 00:20:10,181 um, but all the benefits of the features are happening offsite. 410 00:20:11,021 --> 00:20:11,411 Yeah. 411 00:20:11,531 --> 00:20:15,551 Some of it, I still think there's a lot of, uh, lot of room for talking 412 00:20:15,551 --> 00:20:18,491 about pros and cons on both sides, but I want to hear a little bit more 413 00:20:18,491 --> 00:20:20,171 from Aaron in terms of story time. 414 00:20:20,351 --> 00:20:21,101 One thing that I. 415 00:20:21,791 --> 00:20:23,351 Post here for everyone. 416 00:20:23,921 --> 00:20:26,471 Uh, let me see the best way I could do this. 417 00:20:26,821 --> 00:20:29,171 Uh, I'm going a little bit on the fly here. 418 00:20:29,201 --> 00:20:31,631 I wanna highlight this so I can do it. 419 00:20:31,631 --> 00:20:32,141 I can do it. 420 00:20:32,141 --> 00:20:32,621 Here we go. 421 00:20:32,621 --> 00:20:33,191 Here we go. 422 00:20:33,641 --> 00:20:34,601 Uh, share screen. 423 00:20:34,661 --> 00:20:35,381 That's where it is. 424 00:20:35,781 --> 00:20:36,921 I'm gonna show the tweet. 425 00:20:36,981 --> 00:20:37,431 Let's see. 426 00:20:37,831 --> 00:20:39,571 Ah, does that work? 427 00:20:39,971 --> 00:20:40,451 Nice. 428 00:20:40,451 --> 00:20:44,351 So Aaron has, and I'll put it in the comments here as well, but 429 00:20:44,351 --> 00:20:49,691 um, Aaron has a great diet here on exactly how the classifying some 430 00:20:49,696 --> 00:20:53,621 of the WP M U dev products and some other products of his as well has 431 00:20:53,626 --> 00:20:55,151 really helped increase their revenue. 432 00:20:55,391 --> 00:20:57,876 So Aaron, Story time. 433 00:20:57,966 --> 00:21:00,276 Tell us all about how we increase our revenue 434 00:21:00,676 --> 00:21:00,886 Sure. 435 00:21:00,886 --> 00:21:02,806 Let me give just some examples first. 436 00:21:02,806 --> 00:21:07,756 Some WP and U Dev, uh, most of our plug-ins are hybrid approach, 437 00:21:07,816 --> 00:21:11,116 so basically we took whatever services would be better served. 438 00:21:12,281 --> 00:21:15,491 on like a API side and move those there. 439 00:21:15,611 --> 00:21:17,681 Most of them have a free option. 440 00:21:18,641 --> 00:21:23,531 For example, smush would probably be like one of our most famous ones, very hugely 441 00:21:23,531 --> 00:21:25,721 popular plugin, and it compresses images. 442 00:21:25,721 --> 00:21:29,831 But a software for doing that effectively doesn't really exist 443 00:21:29,836 --> 00:21:32,621 on on host hosting providers. 444 00:21:32,681 --> 00:21:34,781 They can't really do it within. 445 00:21:36,126 --> 00:21:39,576 The plugin at least without a lot of compatibility issues and things like that. 446 00:21:39,576 --> 00:21:41,436 So we built the API for that. 447 00:21:42,366 --> 00:21:44,586 That smushes, you know, millions of images a month. 448 00:21:44,616 --> 00:21:48,576 It's crazy how much traffic it gets, but that's all handled the api and that way 449 00:21:48,581 --> 00:21:52,506 when we want to improve it, we, there's a new technology, there's a new kind of 450 00:21:52,746 --> 00:21:54,606 way of compressing images, even better. 451 00:21:55,176 --> 00:21:57,546 Then we just roll that out and no one even has to know, 452 00:21:57,576 --> 00:21:58,896 don't need to update anything. 453 00:21:58,901 --> 00:21:59,826 It just happens on our. 454 00:22:00,951 --> 00:22:01,131 Amen. 455 00:22:01,161 --> 00:22:05,211 I don't wanna stop your story time, but I wanna pause No there, super quick. 456 00:22:05,301 --> 00:22:08,481 Uh, cuz that is a little bit of a big concern for folks who 457 00:22:08,481 --> 00:22:09,771 wanna satisfy their product. 458 00:22:09,771 --> 00:22:13,941 I can't imagine the cost involved with smush alone. 459 00:22:14,361 --> 00:22:17,961 Uh, there's gotta be a lot of server resources to do all 460 00:22:17,961 --> 00:22:19,101 of that compression for sure. 461 00:22:19,106 --> 00:22:19,611 Right? 462 00:22:19,761 --> 00:22:20,271 For sure. 463 00:22:20,331 --> 00:22:20,631 Yeah. 464 00:22:21,951 --> 00:22:26,061 , yeah, we have a, yeah, definitely a investment there 465 00:22:26,181 --> 00:22:27,561 on the infrastructure side. 466 00:22:28,136 --> 00:22:32,826 in that case at least, it's not really an alternative, but it 467 00:22:33,036 --> 00:22:35,406 provides one of our biggest products. 468 00:22:35,406 --> 00:22:38,226 So yeah, so it works out great for us. 469 00:22:38,496 --> 00:22:45,516 And also we have another SAS feature to that that's pro only, and that is the cdn. 470 00:22:45,516 --> 00:22:50,256 So after it compresses your images, then they get served from our CDN instead, 471 00:22:50,796 --> 00:22:54,606 and then we have ways of generating extra revenue on top of that for bandwidth. 472 00:22:54,606 --> 00:22:57,036 So if they need extra bandwidth or whatever, then. 473 00:22:57,846 --> 00:22:58,596 Pay for that. 474 00:22:59,166 --> 00:23:02,286 So it provides all these other ways to monetize your product on 475 00:23:02,286 --> 00:23:04,476 top of just a plug-in license. 476 00:23:05,016 --> 00:23:05,286 Yeah. 477 00:23:05,526 --> 00:23:09,216 And another one of our plug-in snapshot, which is our backup plug-in, 478 00:23:09,396 --> 00:23:14,076 and that eases a full cloud service now to do incremental backups cuz 479 00:23:14,196 --> 00:23:18,966 we've found that just doing something so resource heavy like that within 480 00:23:18,966 --> 00:23:20,466 WordPress just wasn't possible. 481 00:23:20,466 --> 00:23:22,146 Especially when you're trying to do incremental. 482 00:23:23,286 --> 00:23:26,946 And so we have a whole server side API that handles all. 483 00:23:27,636 --> 00:23:31,146 Fetching like different files that are updated and compressing them 484 00:23:31,146 --> 00:23:34,176 and making incremental thing and storing it in our cloud storage 485 00:23:34,176 --> 00:23:35,166 and different things like that. 486 00:23:35,706 --> 00:23:39,276 And that also allows us to have plans that may be based on how 487 00:23:39,276 --> 00:23:42,666 much cloud storage they need, how for backups and things like that. 488 00:23:43,626 --> 00:23:45,726 Um, versus if what that was all handled in the plugin. 489 00:23:46,696 --> 00:23:52,306 Nice and smart Crawl is similar to Yost, as Andrew mentioned, to where we have. 490 00:23:53,046 --> 00:23:56,796 Little API is to handle certain parts of the plugin, for example, a web crawler. 491 00:23:56,946 --> 00:23:59,526 So that's not something that WordPress can do efficiently. 492 00:23:59,526 --> 00:24:03,696 So we have a web crawler service that that Smart crawl talks to, and 493 00:24:03,696 --> 00:24:06,876 that goes and it crawls through your site to identify SEO issues with 494 00:24:06,876 --> 00:24:08,496 various pages and things like that. 495 00:24:09,171 --> 00:24:09,411 Hmm. 496 00:24:09,531 --> 00:24:11,451 And, uh, defender is our security plugin. 497 00:24:11,451 --> 00:24:15,861 We have a lot of features that are p powered by Cloud, and I think most of 498 00:24:15,861 --> 00:24:20,331 the major security plug-ins do the same, whether it's like downloading the latest 499 00:24:20,336 --> 00:24:24,891 signatures for, like, detecting malware and vulnerabilities and things like that. 500 00:24:25,581 --> 00:24:28,671 Or in our case, we have a really robust audit logging feature in 501 00:24:28,791 --> 00:24:33,201 Defender, creates an audit log of every activity that's done in WordPress. 502 00:24:33,601 --> 00:24:36,631 yes, you could store that in the local database, but if your site 503 00:24:36,631 --> 00:24:38,461 gets hacked, then what's the point? 504 00:24:38,851 --> 00:24:40,621 The audit log is useless. 505 00:24:40,621 --> 00:24:42,811 So from the start, we actually built that 506 00:24:43,651 --> 00:24:44,401 as a 507 00:24:44,401 --> 00:24:45,241 SaaS service. 508 00:24:45,241 --> 00:24:48,931 So there's a whole cloud service that we run where every time one. 509 00:24:49,596 --> 00:24:52,686 , something happens on your WordPress site, that event gets shipped off to 510 00:24:52,686 --> 00:24:56,526 our API and it's stored in in a way that it can't be deleted or modified 511 00:24:56,526 --> 00:24:57,906 even if your sites get hacked. 512 00:24:58,506 --> 00:25:01,716 And also allowing people to, to view all that history from one 513 00:25:01,716 --> 00:25:03,576 central location on our, in our hub. 514 00:25:03,636 --> 00:25:04,206 Nice. 515 00:25:04,716 --> 00:25:05,106 Yeah. 516 00:25:05,706 --> 00:25:06,726 I want you to, I think they're really 517 00:25:06,726 --> 00:25:10,836 good examples of the types of products that should be. 518 00:25:11,256 --> 00:25:14,706 So for example, backups inherently, you don't want the 519 00:25:14,706 --> 00:25:16,896 processing to happen in P H P. 520 00:25:16,896 --> 00:25:19,626 And also the storage of them, by definition, you want 521 00:25:19,631 --> 00:25:20,796 them away from your site. 522 00:25:21,066 --> 00:25:24,516 And all of those examples I think are really good illustrations 523 00:25:24,521 --> 00:25:27,456 of when it is the right time to use the status for your product. 524 00:25:28,026 --> 00:25:28,146 Yeah. 525 00:25:28,546 --> 00:25:29,146 For sure. 526 00:25:29,296 --> 00:25:31,966 Some can be optional, like they're just design choices. 527 00:25:31,966 --> 00:25:35,386 Like for example, our hummingbird optimization plugin. 528 00:25:35,536 --> 00:25:39,886 So most, most of the optimization plugins when they minify your CSS 529 00:25:39,886 --> 00:25:44,146 and JavaScript, they try to do that within P H P, within the plugin itself. 530 00:25:45,161 --> 00:25:47,051 and there's no way to do that very well. 531 00:25:47,081 --> 00:25:51,041 So instead we just built a simple little service where it sends the the 532 00:25:51,041 --> 00:25:55,931 CSS or JavaScript file to our service, and then we run it through the actual 533 00:25:55,931 --> 00:26:00,851 unify JS and CSS men tools like that that are used, like the standards 534 00:26:00,856 --> 00:26:02,591 for compressing those kind of files. 535 00:26:03,161 --> 00:26:06,671 And so we can use just do that really quickly and return it to the client or. 536 00:26:07,496 --> 00:26:12,721 as another way of monetizing for, as a pro feature is we can save that on our cdn 537 00:26:12,751 --> 00:26:14,941 and then it gets served from that instead. 538 00:26:15,691 --> 00:26:20,161 So it, it definitely opens the door and it doesn't have to be either or, 539 00:26:20,161 --> 00:26:26,101 like all SAS or all server side, you can have little micro services that 540 00:26:26,101 --> 00:26:28,651 are better served from your own APIs. 541 00:26:29,051 --> 00:26:31,931 So I wanna dig in a little bit with your examples on. 542 00:26:32,831 --> 00:26:37,571 specifically that tweet, uh, like you say, here's how to take most WordPress plugins 543 00:26:37,571 --> 00:26:39,461 and turn them into a SaaS business. 544 00:26:39,941 --> 00:26:41,741 Uh, how much do you stand behind that? 545 00:26:42,141 --> 00:26:42,741 I think a lot 546 00:26:42,741 --> 00:26:44,631 of them can be . Definitely. 547 00:26:44,631 --> 00:26:47,661 There's an argument for, are you doing this just for. 548 00:26:48,561 --> 00:26:53,001 Sales marketing purposes, cuz obviously it depends on the ethos and me, 549 00:26:53,121 --> 00:26:54,741 I'm trying to make a profit, right? 550 00:26:55,211 --> 00:26:55,411 . Mm-hmm. 551 00:26:55,496 --> 00:26:59,181 provide and at the same time provide the best service that I can to my customers. 552 00:26:59,271 --> 00:27:01,821 But some other people on the other side, they say, oh, it's 553 00:27:01,821 --> 00:27:04,161 all, it's the open source ethos. 554 00:27:04,161 --> 00:27:08,061 You want all the data to centralize and to own that data and have it on our own 555 00:27:08,061 --> 00:27:12,201 servers, even if that means it's gonna be more work or not work as well or whatever. 556 00:27:12,321 --> 00:27:16,251 So there's definitely trade offs to consider there. 557 00:27:16,251 --> 00:27:16,401 I. 558 00:27:16,801 --> 00:27:18,211 Yeah, absolutely. 559 00:27:18,901 --> 00:27:23,041 Uh, talk a little bit about how you feel like this move specifically for W 560 00:27:23,041 --> 00:27:25,531 B M U Dev actually increased revenue. 561 00:27:25,931 --> 00:27:29,361 Yeah, I think it made a big part and especially as. 562 00:27:30,101 --> 00:27:34,241 We've kind of focused our business on our ideal customer, which would 563 00:27:34,241 --> 00:27:38,441 be like WordPress agencies or people that just have a few client 564 00:27:38,446 --> 00:27:40,331 sites, synchro or larger agencies. 565 00:27:41,081 --> 00:27:44,831 And all our products have kind of neutralized on that one central purpose. 566 00:27:44,831 --> 00:27:48,491 And because of that, like we built our hub and hosting where all 567 00:27:48,521 --> 00:27:49,841 that can be managed centrally. 568 00:27:50,831 --> 00:27:53,681 And so the whole SaaS side of our plugins is very important. 569 00:27:53,681 --> 00:27:55,931 Like we've maintained them as separate plugins. 570 00:27:56,276 --> 00:28:00,241 and with free versions in the repo, cuz that's a huge funnel, as you said before. 571 00:28:00,511 --> 00:28:00,831 Mm-hmm. 572 00:28:00,916 --> 00:28:04,621 getting new signups and things like that, but they all funnel 573 00:28:04,626 --> 00:28:08,881 in using like SAS connectors into our overall like hub package. 574 00:28:08,881 --> 00:28:14,611 So you can manage your seo, your backups, your, your optimization, everything for 575 00:28:14,671 --> 00:28:16,561 all your sites from one central location. 576 00:28:16,566 --> 00:28:21,541 So definitely has been super important to, even though we're taking a hybrid 577 00:28:21,541 --> 00:28:22,711 approach with the way the plug-ins. 578 00:28:23,606 --> 00:28:25,916 like most of them don't necessarily have to connect. 579 00:28:26,726 --> 00:28:30,536 It's just ties in really well with our business model and the the 580 00:28:30,536 --> 00:28:31,946 customer that we're trying to target. 581 00:28:32,346 --> 00:28:32,916 Nice. 582 00:28:33,876 --> 00:28:35,136 I don't know how I just did that. 583 00:28:35,536 --> 00:28:35,656 . I'm 584 00:28:35,661 --> 00:28:37,156 waiting for the QR code now. 585 00:28:37,876 --> 00:28:39,346 Yeah, you can click on it. 586 00:28:40,246 --> 00:28:42,466 Platform's got some interesting features, I gotta say. 587 00:28:42,886 --> 00:28:43,066 Yeah. 588 00:28:43,306 --> 00:28:43,846 Nice. 589 00:28:43,846 --> 00:28:45,106 No, that's excellent. 590 00:28:45,346 --> 00:28:49,186 I could say personally, forever ago, I actually did like a. 591 00:28:50,206 --> 00:28:54,976 Uh, image compression plugin, uh, throw down article forever ago. 592 00:28:54,976 --> 00:28:57,586 This was like even before give and all that stuff. 593 00:28:57,646 --> 00:29:00,526 I don't know, like 2011 or 12 or something. 594 00:29:01,096 --> 00:29:04,576 Uh, and at that time, smush definitely was one of, 'em, was probably 595 00:29:04,576 --> 00:29:05,986 one of the biggest ones even. 596 00:29:06,316 --> 00:29:10,096 Um, but it was only a plugin, no SAS connector at that time. 597 00:29:10,456 --> 00:29:14,206 Um, and truthfully, like it was really heavy on the server and it was really 598 00:29:14,206 --> 00:29:15,856 challenging to use it at that time. 599 00:29:15,861 --> 00:29:21,756 So, Definitely see how, uh, how making it more of a sa and offloading a lot of those 600 00:29:21,756 --> 00:29:25,866 resources and things would improve it and make it a far better product overall. 601 00:29:26,076 --> 00:29:28,026 Um, that makes a lot of sense to me. 602 00:29:28,026 --> 00:29:28,596 For sure. 603 00:29:28,656 --> 00:29:32,346 Make it more reliable, be able to do a lot more, uh, image compression 604 00:29:32,346 --> 00:29:38,046 and bulk to one at a time on, on a $5 shared host or something like that. 605 00:29:38,856 --> 00:29:39,306 Yeah, 606 00:29:39,936 --> 00:29:41,556 and it, it can also allow. 607 00:29:41,956 --> 00:29:45,886 To, to do products that aren't possible in a plugin, like for example, infinite 608 00:29:45,886 --> 00:29:49,516 uploads, which is the kinda side project business that I started a few 609 00:29:49,516 --> 00:29:54,616 years back, and that's a cloud storage plugin for WordPress media and video. 610 00:29:54,826 --> 00:29:57,286 And the whole point of that is to offload. 611 00:29:58,211 --> 00:30:01,696 all your WordPress uploads to the cloud cuz you want it to not take up space on 612 00:30:01,696 --> 00:30:05,506 your local host and you wanna be able to scale to any amounts of, of files, 613 00:30:05,506 --> 00:30:07,156 whether it's images or video or whatever. 614 00:30:07,486 --> 00:30:10,516 Can't even provide that as a plugin in itself. 615 00:30:10,696 --> 00:30:14,536 So as far as like business models, you have two ways of doing that. 616 00:30:14,536 --> 00:30:17,206 You have the offload media, which you're probably familiar with, 617 00:30:17,626 --> 00:30:19,516 and that's by delicious brains. 618 00:30:19,916 --> 00:30:21,596 WP Engine, I guess owns it. 619 00:30:21,656 --> 00:30:22,106 Yeah. 620 00:30:22,376 --> 00:30:26,906 But they take the approach that is just connecting to your own S3 cloud account. 621 00:30:27,056 --> 00:30:31,226 But so they have like three and a premium separate versions of the plugin and 622 00:30:31,226 --> 00:30:34,496 when they need to make updates, they have to push 'em like the normal way. 623 00:30:35,176 --> 00:30:38,666 And, and in my case, I thought I saw an opportunity where you can 624 00:30:38,666 --> 00:30:42,986 make a much simpler to where I could wrap the whole cloud storage 625 00:30:42,986 --> 00:30:44,966 and especially the CDN part and. 626 00:30:45,911 --> 00:30:51,191 Caching and clearing and configuration and custom domains and SSL and wrap 627 00:30:51,191 --> 00:30:56,261 those all into a much simpler product that I could sell as one flat price 628 00:30:56,351 --> 00:31:00,071 instead of having just a connector plugin into some other cloud provider. 629 00:31:00,221 --> 00:31:00,311 Mm-hmm. 630 00:31:00,556 --> 00:31:04,361 . So it provides like whole new kind of business opportunities, ways of 631 00:31:04,361 --> 00:31:06,521 monetizing and building products. 632 00:31:08,021 --> 00:31:08,231 Nice. 633 00:31:08,631 --> 00:31:10,431 On the business side of things. 634 00:31:10,731 --> 00:31:13,881 Another thing you said in your tweet is that, uh, SaaS recurring 635 00:31:13,881 --> 00:31:18,051 revenue is better than WordPress plugin licensing recurring revenue. 636 00:31:18,451 --> 00:31:22,591 Someone who built a WordPress business around the annual RU renewal. 637 00:31:22,951 --> 00:31:24,931 I'm like, there's a case for that. 638 00:31:25,111 --> 00:31:26,221 Is it always better? 639 00:31:26,221 --> 00:31:27,571 Not necessarily. 640 00:31:27,721 --> 00:31:30,991 Monthly recurring revenue is, uh, every single month is a, 641 00:31:30,991 --> 00:31:32,551 is an opportunity for churn. 642 00:31:32,551 --> 00:31:35,281 I think that's definitely a concern for sure. 643 00:31:35,911 --> 00:31:39,691 And, um, but you can also do annual for SAS to, you could do annual Yep. 644 00:31:40,291 --> 00:31:40,531 Pretty. 645 00:31:41,716 --> 00:31:42,016 Yep. 646 00:31:42,066 --> 00:31:42,456 Do it. 647 00:31:42,456 --> 00:31:43,976 And they can't keep using it 648 00:31:43,976 --> 00:31:44,896 after they cancel. 649 00:31:45,466 --> 00:31:45,676 Yeah. 650 00:31:45,676 --> 00:31:48,976 That's the big, that's the big difference is once the cancel stops working. 651 00:31:49,381 --> 00:31:49,861 for sure. 652 00:31:49,891 --> 00:31:52,591 And also you can easily provide tiered plans. 653 00:31:52,711 --> 00:31:55,501 With a normal plugin, you might not be able to do that so easily. 654 00:31:55,951 --> 00:31:57,931 You don't want to have five different versions of your 655 00:31:57,931 --> 00:31:59,401 plugin with different features. 656 00:31:59,881 --> 00:32:03,751 So with a SaaS, you can say, okay, if you need extra storage, you can pay 657 00:32:03,751 --> 00:32:05,431 a little extra to get more storage. 658 00:32:05,436 --> 00:32:08,641 If you want to enable this new pro feature that we just 659 00:32:08,641 --> 00:32:10,221 created, that's a whole new plan. 660 00:32:10,221 --> 00:32:10,541 Upgrade. 661 00:32:10,541 --> 00:32:10,741 Mm-hmm. 662 00:32:10,821 --> 00:32:15,001 . So you have all these new ways of monetizing and un unlocking revenue that 663 00:32:15,001 --> 00:32:16,951 you can't do with a traditional just 664 00:32:17,191 --> 00:32:17,761 app store. 665 00:32:18,161 --> 00:32:18,551 Yeah. 666 00:32:18,941 --> 00:32:22,391 Or even downgrading, allowing them to downgrade to a more affordable 667 00:32:22,391 --> 00:32:25,811 tier, uh, is better than losing them as a customer completely. 668 00:32:25,951 --> 00:32:27,001 Yeah, for sure. 669 00:32:27,481 --> 00:32:27,971 Yeah. 670 00:32:28,811 --> 00:32:32,921 Um, Katie, do you have thoughts on the business model side of the SaaS thing? 671 00:32:33,321 --> 00:32:37,101 Uh, not particularly, but I do have a question for you, Matt, which is 672 00:32:37,131 --> 00:32:41,271 whether, um, there's anything you can talk about experiences within 673 00:32:41,271 --> 00:32:44,031 Stellar of switching to a SaaS model. 674 00:32:44,241 --> 00:32:47,721 Cuz I know that, um, particularly providing a hosted version of a 675 00:32:47,726 --> 00:32:50,901 product is something that Stellar have been doing with several of 676 00:32:50,906 --> 00:32:53,631 their brands, and that's SAS as well. 677 00:32:53,631 --> 00:32:53,871 Isn. 678 00:32:54,471 --> 00:32:54,801 Yep. 679 00:32:55,191 --> 00:32:57,651 Uh, biggest example is Learn LearnDash. 680 00:32:57,741 --> 00:32:59,361 We launched LearnDash Cloud. 681 00:32:59,691 --> 00:33:01,491 Um, there's a bit of precedence for this too. 682 00:33:01,521 --> 00:33:06,651 Elementor launched other Elementor hosted version a while back as well. 683 00:33:06,981 --> 00:33:11,091 Uh, and, uh, the LearnDash version and Elementor websites, both 684 00:33:11,091 --> 00:33:12,951 our monthly recurring revenue. 685 00:33:13,051 --> 00:33:16,911 Uh, and the idea is essentially that you're trying to provide them 686 00:33:16,911 --> 00:33:21,201 with the whole website and feature set all wrapped up into one. 687 00:33:21,841 --> 00:33:25,501 With Elementor, you're building a whole entire website with, uh, learn Dash. 688 00:33:25,501 --> 00:33:27,331 You're really building a learning portal. 689 00:33:27,661 --> 00:33:30,781 Uh, and it might be for a short time, it might be for a long time. 690 00:33:31,111 --> 00:33:36,271 Uh, but the big op opportunity here is that you get to control that 691 00:33:36,276 --> 00:33:38,221 whole experience for the customer. 692 00:33:38,281 --> 00:33:42,691 Uh, learn Dash can be configured in a million different ways, and 693 00:33:42,691 --> 00:33:45,841 our experience is we kind of all the best ways to configure it. 694 00:33:45,846 --> 00:33:49,261 So we might as well give that to you right out of the box if you really want that. 695 00:33:49,936 --> 00:33:53,986 So hosting costs involved, which is actually a lot easier when you're Yeah. 696 00:33:53,986 --> 00:33:54,826 Hosting company. 697 00:33:54,916 --> 00:33:57,676 So that's convenient as we kind of, there, there's still costs, 698 00:33:57,676 --> 00:34:00,586 of course, but the costs are kind of done a little bit differently. 699 00:34:01,246 --> 00:34:04,186 But, uh, it, it definitely is a, an interesting idea. 700 00:34:04,191 --> 00:34:09,166 I think for, for the most part it was done, um, to serve a customer need. 701 00:34:09,526 --> 00:34:13,126 They, there were plenty of customers who were like, oh, I'd love to use 702 00:34:13,126 --> 00:34:16,786 Learn Dash, but I don't know anything about building WordPress websites and. 703 00:34:17,301 --> 00:34:21,021 Hosting, what does that mean and how do I point a domain at a host? 704 00:34:21,021 --> 00:34:24,021 And all of that is just a hassle when I really just wanna 705 00:34:24,021 --> 00:34:26,961 spin up a course site today. 706 00:34:27,561 --> 00:34:29,301 Uh, that's the customer need. 707 00:34:29,511 --> 00:34:31,791 And, uh, learn Dash Cloud really tackled that one, like. 708 00:34:32,531 --> 00:34:37,721 Cleanly and clearly, and I don't have the exact numbers right in front of me. 709 00:34:38,111 --> 00:34:41,741 Uh, the worry with things like this is that are you going to eat into 710 00:34:41,746 --> 00:34:45,821 your existing customer bases, like all the plugin, are they gonna say, 711 00:34:45,821 --> 00:34:50,651 oh, much rather do this, and then they drop their plugin licenses 712 00:34:50,651 --> 00:34:52,331 and go over to the hosted one? 713 00:34:52,721 --> 00:34:55,511 And at the end of the day, that's not what's happening at all. 714 00:34:55,511 --> 00:34:57,611 They're really two different customer segments. 715 00:34:57,611 --> 00:34:58,511 Some of 'em really. 716 00:34:59,276 --> 00:35:02,816 They're doing the WordPress plugin themselves, and the others really 717 00:35:02,816 --> 00:35:05,156 prefer being able to spin it up and run. 718 00:35:05,696 --> 00:35:08,636 So that's a little bit of where I, I'm like, I think there's 719 00:35:08,636 --> 00:35:12,386 different use cases and different purposes, different pros and cons. 720 00:35:12,386 --> 00:35:15,626 It depends on the customer, depends on the need, all that kind of thing. 721 00:35:16,136 --> 00:35:17,126 That's a really good question. 722 00:35:17,131 --> 00:35:17,786 Thanks for asking. 723 00:35:17,786 --> 00:35:18,656 I hadn't even. 724 00:35:19,086 --> 00:35:19,836 Thought of that 725 00:35:21,306 --> 00:35:26,316 . Almost like that's the ultimate session for satisfying a WordPress product because 726 00:35:26,316 --> 00:35:30,366 it's from the user's perspective, it's taken WordPress out of the equation 727 00:35:30,666 --> 00:35:32,286 because it's the whole website. 728 00:35:32,526 --> 00:35:37,836 So the other examples we've talked about involve using a satisfied product 729 00:35:37,841 --> 00:35:41,976 to enhance your WordPress website, but ultimately you still have set up word. 730 00:35:42,821 --> 00:35:46,781 And hosting and during the admin, but with these two examples, they're 731 00:35:47,081 --> 00:35:48,521 the Elementor and the Learn Dash. 732 00:35:48,821 --> 00:35:52,601 That's your whole website, and it doesn't matter what the platform is. 733 00:35:53,771 --> 00:35:54,981 Yeah, absolutely. 734 00:35:54,981 --> 00:35:55,811 Yeah, that's a good point. 735 00:35:56,211 --> 00:35:59,631 Yeah, and I, I know that's brought up controversy too, like in the 736 00:35:59,631 --> 00:36:03,946 community, like when Elementor is doing that, That you're satisfying 737 00:36:03,946 --> 00:36:07,306 the entire WordPress experience or taking WordPress away, even though 738 00:36:07,306 --> 00:36:09,496 you're using it as part of your SaaS. 739 00:36:10,336 --> 00:36:11,506 So that's something to consider too. 740 00:36:11,506 --> 00:36:13,636 Something that you brought up earlier, Matt, that I thought 741 00:36:13,636 --> 00:36:18,796 was kind of interesting is what if, give an example, imagine ai. 742 00:36:18,886 --> 00:36:24,091 So I built that, that's my most recent product to, uh, For focusing on like 743 00:36:24,091 --> 00:36:26,821 AI image, anything with AI images. 744 00:36:26,911 --> 00:36:31,021 And I kind of decided I wanna maybe leave the WordPress ecosystem, even though 745 00:36:31,021 --> 00:36:32,551 that's where all my connections are. 746 00:36:33,271 --> 00:36:36,001 So I kind of thought as a SaaS first product. 747 00:36:36,001 --> 00:36:38,251 So first it's a SaaS open to anyone. 748 00:36:38,256 --> 00:36:39,391 You don't need WordPress. 749 00:36:39,391 --> 00:36:42,931 But then you have the Imagine AI plugin which connects to it. 750 00:36:43,801 --> 00:36:48,181 Uh, so you don't necessarily half by being able to target all the. 751 00:36:49,216 --> 00:36:52,186 And everyone, it doesn't mean you necessarily lose that 752 00:36:52,186 --> 00:36:56,236 awesome funnel that is like a, a connector plugin on wordpress.org. 753 00:36:56,776 --> 00:37:00,556 You can have best of both worlds , so you get people come in and finding 754 00:37:00,561 --> 00:37:01,996 out your service from that. 755 00:37:02,086 --> 00:37:06,166 But you also can start targeting a much broader community than 756 00:37:06,166 --> 00:37:07,696 just the WordPress ecosystem. 757 00:37:08,086 --> 00:37:08,506 Yep. 758 00:37:08,596 --> 00:37:09,766 And you could go the other direction 759 00:37:09,766 --> 00:37:09,976 too. 760 00:37:09,976 --> 00:37:14,146 You can start with your plugin and expand it, like as you're talking about, 761 00:37:14,146 --> 00:37:16,216 maybe give WP doing or things like that. 762 00:37:17,611 --> 00:37:17,821 Yeah. 763 00:37:17,821 --> 00:37:21,001 Even Yost, uh, for, they did the Shopify integration. 764 00:37:21,001 --> 00:37:26,401 They actually, they created Yost dot js, which was like a way 765 00:37:26,401 --> 00:37:30,031 to be able to use Yost on any website that supported JavaScript. 766 00:37:30,151 --> 00:37:32,161 And um, that was an interesting experiment. 767 00:37:32,166 --> 00:37:36,011 I haven't really seen personally much use of it or anybody really. 768 00:37:36,541 --> 00:37:38,611 claiming that it's awesome or whatnot. 769 00:37:39,001 --> 00:37:42,691 I'd be curious to hear if they're getting usage out of that, but I, and I 770 00:37:42,691 --> 00:37:47,311 believe that's what was poured into their Shopify feature as well, more or less. 771 00:37:47,311 --> 00:37:49,141 I might be just making things up. 772 00:37:49,261 --> 00:37:53,791 They can correct me if I'm wrong, but that's, that's one way to go about it too. 773 00:37:54,751 --> 00:37:56,191 We have hit, oh, go ahead. 774 00:37:57,201 --> 00:37:57,781 Oh, I was just gonna 775 00:37:57,781 --> 00:37:58,921 throw out one more example. 776 00:37:58,921 --> 00:37:59,521 If you're familiar. 777 00:38:00,366 --> 00:38:00,786 Ari. 778 00:38:01,156 --> 00:38:01,576 Yep. 779 00:38:02,416 --> 00:38:03,436 They 780 00:38:03,436 --> 00:38:06,316 started out as, was it like WP Feedback? 781 00:38:06,316 --> 00:38:10,876 I forgot what it's called, the WordPress plugin, and now they've gotten full SaaS. 782 00:38:11,206 --> 00:38:13,696 Yeah, I mean targeting anyone, any web developer, any 783 00:38:13,696 --> 00:38:14,726 website, anything like that. 784 00:38:15,016 --> 00:38:15,316 Yep. 785 00:38:15,346 --> 00:38:17,476 There's a good example that I think has been successful. 786 00:38:18,031 --> 00:38:18,421 WordPress. 787 00:38:18,421 --> 00:38:19,081 That's a good one. 788 00:38:19,651 --> 00:38:20,011 Yep. 789 00:38:21,031 --> 00:38:25,681 We're gonna wrap up with our last segment, which we go around and we 790 00:38:25,771 --> 00:38:29,641 share what our best advice is for any new plug-in shop owners who might 791 00:38:29,641 --> 00:38:33,721 be considering classifying their products in one form or another. 792 00:38:34,261 --> 00:38:35,801 Uh, Aaron, do you want to kick us off? 793 00:38:36,201 --> 00:38:36,861 Sure. 794 00:38:36,921 --> 00:38:40,841 Uh, just in summary, I'd say there's a lot of pros to classifying. 795 00:38:40,846 --> 00:38:45,171 There are some trade offs that we mentioned, especially when it comes to 796 00:38:45,171 --> 00:38:49,791 the technical side and having to develop APIs and services and maintain those. 797 00:38:50,481 --> 00:38:52,821 And there's cost involved there, of course. 798 00:38:52,851 --> 00:38:58,431 Uh, but overall, think that the good, um, thing to pursue for a lot of different 799 00:38:58,431 --> 00:39:03,021 plugins to see if they can that or add some SaaS features to their product. 800 00:39:03,421 --> 00:39:04,831 Absolutely Katie. 801 00:39:05,231 --> 00:39:09,851 Yeah, I'd say consider that as part of your thinking about what source 802 00:39:09,851 --> 00:39:13,481 of plugin shop you're going to set up and where you're going to specialize 803 00:39:13,931 --> 00:39:17,591 us is not the only way to build a profitable, sustainable business. 804 00:39:17,591 --> 00:39:21,221 As Matt touched on earlier, it's not like we are saying, I'll put 805 00:39:21,226 --> 00:39:24,621 your plugins on Co Canyon, where you can't get renewals or anything. 806 00:39:24,731 --> 00:39:28,751 You can get sustainable ongoing revenue, which allows you to keep supporting 807 00:39:28,751 --> 00:39:30,461 and maintaining a normal plugin. 808 00:39:30,821 --> 00:39:32,771 But I think there are business. 809 00:39:33,171 --> 00:39:34,221 Aaron, are you still there? 810 00:39:34,731 --> 00:39:35,721 I'm here, yeah. 811 00:39:36,801 --> 00:39:36,831 Okay. 812 00:39:36,831 --> 00:39:37,101 Katie. 813 00:39:37,101 --> 00:39:37,911 Freeze for you too. 814 00:39:38,271 --> 00:39:38,841 Yeah. 815 00:39:40,221 --> 00:39:40,911 Ah. 816 00:39:41,571 --> 00:39:43,251 We hit a technical snag. 817 00:39:43,281 --> 00:39:46,191 Bummer, . He can finish her words right? 818 00:39:47,001 --> 00:39:47,361 ? I bet. 819 00:39:47,421 --> 00:39:49,401 I bet you that she'll be back any second. 820 00:39:49,401 --> 00:39:54,051 Now, I'll say from my end, uh, that, uh, the best advice I have 821 00:39:54,081 --> 00:39:57,321 is to really dig into the cost. 822 00:39:57,441 --> 00:40:02,091 Uh, there's actually, when we were looking into doing a full fledged sass, we found 823 00:40:02,091 --> 00:40:07,881 tons of resources online on estimating your server costs based on what type 824 00:40:07,881 --> 00:40:09,381 of features and functionality that you. 825 00:40:09,731 --> 00:40:10,421 Be doing. 826 00:40:10,421 --> 00:40:13,601 There's like Excel spreadsheets and all kinds of stuff that can help 827 00:40:13,601 --> 00:40:18,221 you estimate those things, do all of your due diligence, and really dig 828 00:40:18,221 --> 00:40:22,691 into what the costs will be and use that to figure out your pricing for 829 00:40:22,691 --> 00:40:25,841 sure, and but also really consider. 830 00:40:26,031 --> 00:40:31,341 How are you going to attract customers if it's primarily just a WordPress connector? 831 00:40:31,401 --> 00:40:36,381 I really think it's a lot harder to use the WordPress funnel as attracting 832 00:40:36,386 --> 00:40:42,291 new audiences because the plugin itself isn't gonna do anything without the SaaS. 833 00:40:42,621 --> 00:40:46,191 But if it's a plugin that does something and has SaaS features as well, 834 00:40:46,191 --> 00:40:47,481 then there there's potential there. 835 00:40:48,201 --> 00:40:51,921 , or if you're just gonna do the SaaS with a WordPress connector, like how 836 00:40:51,921 --> 00:40:53,571 are you going to market that SaaS? 837 00:40:53,601 --> 00:40:58,011 Because in my mind, costs and acquisitions, new customer 838 00:40:58,011 --> 00:41:02,121 accounts are kind of some of the biggest ions to take into mine. 839 00:41:02,181 --> 00:41:04,971 Or jumping into a business model like this. 840 00:41:05,051 --> 00:41:06,141 That's right. 841 00:41:06,141 --> 00:41:06,411 My, 842 00:41:07,161 --> 00:41:07,431 yeah. 843 00:41:08,301 --> 00:41:08,781 Yeah. 844 00:41:08,841 --> 00:41:13,431 And just speaking on that, Server side, it doesn't have to cost that much. 845 00:41:13,431 --> 00:41:18,621 In most cases, $5 droplet on digital Ocean can handle a surprising amount of traffic 846 00:41:19,026 --> 00:41:20,751 , depending on what you're trying to do. 847 00:41:20,871 --> 00:41:24,051 So that doesn't necessarily have to be like a huge blocker 848 00:41:24,051 --> 00:41:25,611 or a huge thing to overcome. 849 00:41:26,361 --> 00:41:26,841 Yep. 850 00:41:28,041 --> 00:41:33,051 And it looks like we might be getting Katie back in just a second cuz we 851 00:41:33,051 --> 00:41:36,621 are gonna wrap up and I wanted to make sure to talk about next week as well. 852 00:41:37,661 --> 00:41:39,681 I know it still looks like it's struggling a little bit. 853 00:41:40,491 --> 00:41:42,951 Let me see if I can add what happens. 854 00:41:43,351 --> 00:41:45,871 I was worried about that . It's not quite there. 855 00:41:45,931 --> 00:41:48,091 Think I got that might be just my video. 856 00:41:48,591 --> 00:41:49,261 Oh, okay. 857 00:41:49,261 --> 00:41:49,681 Great. 858 00:41:50,191 --> 00:41:52,111 Uh, let's see if that works. 859 00:41:52,171 --> 00:41:53,251 Just trying to get the video. 860 00:41:53,651 --> 00:41:55,121 Okay with me without video then 861 00:41:55,521 --> 00:41:55,731 . Cool. 862 00:41:55,731 --> 00:41:56,061 Cool. 863 00:41:56,091 --> 00:41:57,081 We're wrapping it up. 864 00:41:57,081 --> 00:41:59,601 Thanks everybody for being here and for listening in. 865 00:41:59,601 --> 00:42:01,781 Aaron, thanks so much for being here as well. 866 00:42:02,676 --> 00:42:03,666 Yeah, this was great. 867 00:42:03,906 --> 00:42:09,156 We'll be pushing it out on the socials and we do have a new YouTube channel 868 00:42:09,426 --> 00:42:13,926 for Product Talk, so find us on YouTube at Up Product Talk and hit 869 00:42:13,926 --> 00:42:15,516 that subscribe button if you can.