WEBVTT NOTE This file was generated by Descript 00:00:03.248 --> 00:00:09.268 Jethro D. Jones: Welcome to Transformative Principle, where I help you stop putting out fires and start leading. 00:00:09.808 --> 00:00:11.268 I am your host, Jethro Jones. 00:00:11.268 --> 00:00:14.028 You can follow me on Twitter at Jethro Jones. 00:00:35.348 --> 00:00:37.318 Welcome to Transformative Principle. 00:00:37.338 --> 00:00:59.158 I'm your host, Jethro Jones, and I am so excited for our conversation today, uh, regardless of where the political and educational climate is, there's one thing that is very true and that is that you in your school have to start telling people why they should come to your school. 00:00:59.813 --> 00:01:11.163 Instead of any of the other choices that are out there, because Choice for Families is just becoming a bigger and bigger issue and more real . All across the country. 00:01:11.783 --> 00:01:16.723 And I've been saying for a long time that eventually school's going to become hyper localized. 00:01:17.183 --> 00:01:22.403 And we see that with micro schools and things like that, but there is, there's so much to this. 00:01:22.583 --> 00:01:25.883 So, uh, and this is an area where we really struggle. 00:01:26.523 --> 00:01:28.213 I. As public school educators. 00:01:28.433 --> 00:01:44.093 So, uh, I, I reached out to my network and found someone who has a unique perspective on this as a, uh, former principal of Catholic schools, John Mahalo, who was on episode 5 99 of this podcast. 00:01:45.143 --> 00:01:51.843 But I thought for this conversation it would be worthwhile to bring him back and talk about, well, we're gonna start talking about a branding audit. 00:01:52.543 --> 00:02:01.563 So John has, uh, done an amazing job of leading Catholic schools and he is now, uh, coaching and supporting principals in doing that work. 00:02:02.303 --> 00:02:10.803 But one of the things that when he and I were talking last week, uh, he shared was his brand audit, which I think is just so powerful. 00:02:11.958 --> 00:02:14.578 and so John, welcome to Transformative Principles. 00:02:14.638 --> 00:02:15.738 So excited to have you here. 00:02:16.783 --> 00:02:17.593 John Mihalyo: It's great to see you. 00:02:17.593 --> 00:02:20.193 5 99. That's, that's a, that's a big number there. 00:02:20.293 --> 00:02:22.513 So, uh, so five episode five, nine. 00:02:22.513 --> 00:02:22.673 Nine. 00:02:22.673 --> 00:02:23.353 That's pretty cool. 00:02:23.558 --> 00:02:23.848 Jethro D. Jones: Yeah. 00:02:23.988 --> 00:02:27.128 And this one is episode like six 60 or something. 00:02:27.333 --> 00:02:27.553 John Mihalyo: man. 00:02:27.553 --> 00:02:31.793 Oh man, I, I, I'm, I, I feel very important there, so it's always good to be with you. 00:02:31.793 --> 00:02:34.393 It's always good to see you and converse and collaborate with you For sure. 00:02:35.598 --> 00:02:44.698 Jethro D. Jones: So the thing that made me, uh, because you and I were just talking last week and you were sharing some of the stuff you were doing and when you said a branding audit, um, it really. 00:02:45.573 --> 00:03:08.193 It really hit me because one, I'm doing this, uh, school X book study on my book School X right now, and we've been talking a lot about mission, vision, values, and you have a unique perspective having been in a place where you always have to sell yourself to get people to come, that people don't just come because you're right down the street and they're assigned to come to your school. 00:03:08.453 --> 00:03:14.488 People have to actively choose to go to a Catholic school and pay tuition, . Out of pocket. 00:03:14.788 --> 00:03:26.728 So, um, so why don't we start there with this idea of, you gotta, you gotta make sure you're clear enough that you're valuable enough to command that tuition that your, that your school is charging. 00:03:27.238 --> 00:03:30.168 Like, that's just a foreign concept to most public school educators. 00:03:30.728 --> 00:03:30.848 I. 00:03:31.178 --> 00:03:37.198 John Mihalyo: And I think that's something that, 'cause I worked in a public school as well, so um, people say, well, you know, how do you have. 00:03:37.203 --> 00:03:39.133 This perspective, knowing what it's like in a public school. 00:03:39.528 --> 00:03:44.288 I worked in a public school and, uh, as an administrator, worked as, as a Catholic school administrator. 00:03:44.388 --> 00:03:46.408 So I've seen both worlds of that. 00:03:46.548 --> 00:03:53.008 And I know that, um, in a public school setting, you know, your budgets are given to you from a county perspective. 00:03:53.188 --> 00:04:00.288 Now there's local things you might do as a PTA or things like that, or that you can control within your classroom or within your school setting. 00:04:00.948 --> 00:04:05.568 But for the most part, uh, that's gonna come down from, from your central office and, and you're gonna execute that. 00:04:06.203 --> 00:04:16.933 When you're running a a Catholic school, your identity and your brand is really an individualized school, uh, decision in a lot of instances. 00:04:16.993 --> 00:04:24.773 Now, I know there's a few diocese out there throughout our United States and, and throughout the world where it's like, oh, no, we're gonna, we're gonna centralize everything and, and, and move it out. 00:04:25.703 --> 00:04:32.883 But for the most part, you are an individual entity, more of a system of schools as opposed to a school system. 00:04:33.383 --> 00:04:36.923 And so your identity and your brand is what you make of it. 00:04:37.473 --> 00:04:38.563 What do you want to be known for? 00:04:38.563 --> 00:04:40.123 What do you want your school to be all about? 00:04:40.123 --> 00:04:42.123 Do you want your school to be a classical school? 00:04:42.123 --> 00:04:47.043 Do you want your school to be, uh, one that's more known for your extracurricular activities? 00:04:47.043 --> 00:04:49.203 What is it that you want that identity to be? 00:04:50.138 --> 00:05:01.118 And what I see with a lot of schools that I work with is what they might think they are and what the public thinks they are sometimes don't necessarily match up. 00:05:01.578 --> 00:05:07.078 And so what I do with a lot of schools is really work with them from the ground level of Tell me what's important to you. 00:05:07.078 --> 00:05:08.998 Tell me what's, what's a big deal to you? 00:05:09.158 --> 00:05:10.678 What's, what is it that you stand for? 00:05:10.678 --> 00:05:12.758 What's important to your identity? 00:05:13.578 --> 00:05:16.838 And let me learn about what it is that's making you tick. 00:05:16.838 --> 00:05:17.438 What's your mission? 00:05:17.438 --> 00:05:18.118 What's your vision? 00:05:18.823 --> 00:05:25.843 And then I'm gonna conduct that branding audit form to say, okay, I don't know your school, but this is what the perception of your school is out there. 00:05:26.503 --> 00:05:28.883 And I uncover a lot of different things for 'em. 00:05:28.923 --> 00:05:40.123 I believe me, I, I research their school as somebody who would be a prospective family, is researching their school to see everything that I can find out about what it is that they're doing. 00:05:40.623 --> 00:05:42.283 Um, and, and I call it an audit. 00:05:42.708 --> 00:05:53.718 Jethro D. Jones: Yeah, so lemme just pause right there because this is really key that it doesn't matter what other schools think of you, because they're not the ones who are choosing to send their kids to you. 00:05:54.703 --> 00:06:05.683 And so you can be popular in your district or your system or whatever, but the real value is when parents are looking for you, what does that look like? 00:06:05.743 --> 00:06:20.443 And how, how do they feel like they are, they see themselves sending their kids to your school and like even though schools, public schools, who are, most of the people that listen to this are, are not in that position. 00:06:21.033 --> 00:06:29.563 This is a very real thing that they have to deal with also, that, you know, people decide where they buy houses based on what public schools there are. 00:06:30.063 --> 00:06:37.763 Um, but I, I think that as choice becomes more, uh, expansive, that it won't matter as much. 00:06:38.223 --> 00:06:48.523 You are still going to have to go out and market and get those people, um, in a way that you just haven't had to as a school leader before, and like, this is not necessarily next year. 00:06:49.033 --> 00:06:52.853 But for some families in your district, in your school, it is next year. 00:06:52.923 --> 00:06:55.613 They're looking right now, why should I go to your school? 00:06:56.073 --> 00:07:02.013 And so even if you are part of a larger district, you still have to say, this is why you should come to my school specifically. 00:07:02.633 --> 00:07:10.413 And I've talked with hundreds of principals who have done this, and every principal who says, this is what our school's really about. 00:07:11.403 --> 00:07:19.463 And can communicate that effectively has a growth in enrollment and participation and engagement from families. 00:07:19.883 --> 00:07:20.943 All that really matters. 00:07:21.123 --> 00:07:30.983 So, uh, I want you to, to really go through that process, if you don't mind, of how you research a school like a parent would, because we often don't think like that. 00:07:31.083 --> 00:07:32.503 We look at the things that we care about. 00:07:32.503 --> 00:07:36.303 And let me just illustrate this for people real quick 'cause you're gonna take us through it. 00:07:36.303 --> 00:07:38.703 But you and I were talking about a particular Catholic school. 00:07:39.838 --> 00:07:48.978 and you said, well, just a second, let me pull up their website and I'll tell you one, if they're doing well financially, and two, I'll tell you what their focus is. 00:07:49.078 --> 00:08:00.018 And sure enough, within about 60 seconds you found out how well you thought they were doing and if they were like in trouble financially and you found out what kind of people they are catering to. 00:08:00.278 --> 00:08:07.913 And uh, I'm pretty sure you nailed it, which was insightful for me because I wouldn't have even thought to look for those things. 00:08:08.173 --> 00:08:10.953 So tell us about how you go through that and look at it like a parent. 00:08:11.998 --> 00:08:18.098 John Mihalyo: So, so I think what I'm trying to do is to gain an understanding of what's important to your school. 00:08:18.758 --> 00:08:20.738 Um, and I'll give you a prime example of this one. 00:08:20.938 --> 00:08:25.658 A school that I work with, uh, a while back, uh, asked me to, to do some research on what it is. 00:08:25.658 --> 00:08:26.938 And I said, okay, tell me what it is that you're all about. 00:08:26.938 --> 00:08:28.778 And I said, well, we, A, B, C, and D. 00:08:28.898 --> 00:08:29.418 I said, great. 00:08:30.118 --> 00:08:33.658 Uh, when I did mine, I'll say, what was most important athletics? 00:08:34.958 --> 00:08:37.608 Because that was the only thing that was on social media. 00:08:37.608 --> 00:08:39.168 That was the only thing that was on their website. 00:08:39.168 --> 00:08:39.928 That was the only thing. 00:08:40.583 --> 00:08:51.683 All the stuff that they wanted to highlight, which they were doing really, really, really well, was kind of being put on the back burner so that they could highlight their school's athletic program and our athletic program was very good. 00:08:51.893 --> 00:08:58.723 Don't get me wrong with that, but you can't have your athletics being the focus of everything on every outlet that you have. 00:08:59.683 --> 00:09:04.773 When you want people to know about your school for these other reasons as well, it can be a piece of what it is that you're doing. 00:09:05.353 --> 00:09:11.133 But if that's gonna be what your lead in is, then you're gonna be known as a school that people are gonna look to for athletic purposes. 00:09:11.553 --> 00:09:21.973 And so when I'm looking at things I am looking at, as I said, I am treating it as I know nothing about your school and you've asked me to apply to your school. 00:09:22.073 --> 00:09:24.973 You want me to send my child or my children to your school? 00:09:25.598 --> 00:09:27.098 Uh, and you're inviting me to do that. 00:09:27.358 --> 00:09:28.138 Why should I do that? 00:09:28.208 --> 00:09:29.898 What is it that your school is all about? 00:09:30.398 --> 00:09:37.058 You would be shocked when you go out there and you look at things, you say, well, what do the parent reviews say about a school? 00:09:37.718 --> 00:09:40.298 If the last parent review you have is nine years old? 00:09:40.918 --> 00:09:43.178 It really says two things about your school. 00:09:43.278 --> 00:09:47.938 Number one, uh, it says that your school's not getting a lot of traction online. 00:09:47.938 --> 00:09:50.338 That people are even, you know, reviewing your school. 00:09:50.488 --> 00:09:50.778 Okay? 00:09:51.158 --> 00:09:53.018 But just imagine if that last review. 00:09:53.903 --> 00:09:56.353 That was nine years ago is a negative one. 00:09:56.863 --> 00:09:58.913 Well, maybe your school's changed a lot since then. 00:09:59.373 --> 00:10:02.913 So how do we help these schools work in their favor? 00:10:03.303 --> 00:10:03.593 Okay. 00:10:03.593 --> 00:10:07.833 Because we want a school that goes out there and, hey, how are we getting those parent reviews? 00:10:07.833 --> 00:10:08.473 What are they saying? 00:10:08.893 --> 00:10:20.113 But then the other piece of this audit jetro is, is that I want to give this school that I'm working with actionable items that they can do within the first 30 to 45 days after we're done with our audit. 00:10:20.573 --> 00:10:27.583 To say, here's, here's some simple things you can do right now that are gonna improve these areas that are improve your school brand. 00:10:27.743 --> 00:10:34.103 I mean, right now, like low hanging fruit, easy, uh, because you start to see them over and over as principals out there. 00:10:34.323 --> 00:10:35.023 We all know this. 00:10:35.933 --> 00:10:42.063 When we get a question from a parent, once we say, okay, there's a question, we better take note of that when we hear it twice. 00:10:42.778 --> 00:10:44.558 We go, okay, there's a pattern brewing. 00:10:44.788 --> 00:10:51.598 When we start to hear it for the third and fourth time, we say, we better get out in front of this because there's something that's being asked numerous times. 00:10:52.298 --> 00:11:06.198 You would be shocked when you do a branding audit on a school how the same patterns start to appear over and over and over again, whether it be positively or negatively, that are working either for that school or against that school. 00:11:06.738 --> 00:11:09.878 And I guarantee you that if your school is losing enrollment. 00:11:10.658 --> 00:11:22.718 If you're a school that maybe your fundraising dollars aren't hitting what they should, if maybe your teacher retention rate is low, if maybe your family retention rate is low, you may not have a problem with it's happening. 00:11:23.623 --> 00:11:33.243 You know, you have a problem with tapping with your branding as more than anything else because something's preventing people from coming to your school and being excited about your school. 00:11:33.863 --> 00:11:35.963 And when you have those wins, it's contagious. 00:11:36.223 --> 00:11:41.083 And so setting yourself up and making that investment to go out and say, Hey, what, what are we all about? 00:11:41.083 --> 00:11:43.403 And what's our online branding audit right now? 00:11:43.863 --> 00:11:47.003 Uh, it really, really pays huge dividends for schools for sure. 00:11:47.583 --> 00:12:03.803 Jethro D. Jones: Well, and the thing that's so fascinating here is that you can see these things with a la lagging indicator, which means you see them . After the problem has already happened and it's essentially too late for you to go back and change what has happened in the past. 00:12:04.633 --> 00:12:11.643 What you wanna look for are the leading indicators that say, these are the things that are clearly showing that it's not doing what we want it to. 00:12:11.663 --> 00:12:15.243 So that school, you mentioned that that has these different things that they're proud of. 00:12:15.503 --> 00:12:23.833 The only thing they're putting on social media is the ac, the athletics part, and . That's fine if that's what you want to be known for. 00:12:24.333 --> 00:12:32.593 Um, but so like here in Spokane we have Gonzaga Prep, uh, which as you can imagine is really good at basketball. 00:12:33.013 --> 00:12:38.653 Um, because I. Gonzaga is right down the street and they're also really good at basketball. 00:12:38.833 --> 00:12:47.693 And so Gonzaga is really good at sports, but that is not the thing that everybody talks about around that, uh, around that school. 00:12:48.153 --> 00:12:54.693 It is part of it, but it is not the thing, you know, people, people say about Gonzaga Prep that. 00:12:55.438 --> 00:12:59.808 It's about the community and the kind of people that their kids become. 00:13:00.018 --> 00:13:03.648 Those things seem to be more important and bonus. 00:13:03.878 --> 00:13:07.248 They're really good at sports and do exceptionally well all the time. 00:13:07.788 --> 00:13:16.608 And, and so that branding piece really has helped them from me who's who, who's not interested in sending my kids to that school. 00:13:16.948 --> 00:13:19.808 And that's just what I hear in, in the neighborhood. 00:13:20.068 --> 00:13:24.497 But there is definitely an importance on, on athletics, but it's not the sole thing I. 00:13:25.695 --> 00:13:33.840 John Mihalyo: and when I look at a school, you know, I have, and I know you and I have shared this, but for those, uh, who maybe have never heard of me before, uh, element . Entry advancement.com. 00:13:33.955 --> 00:13:38.515 I have what I call pillars for, uh, enrollment growth pillars for advancement growth. 00:13:39.255 --> 00:13:46.155 And within those pillars, you're gonna be looking at, we're gonna be looking at our operations, we're gonna be looking at our community engagement. 00:13:46.155 --> 00:13:55.955 We're gonna be looking at our Catholic identity, we're gonna be looking at our community engagement in terms of, you know, our, are people actually, uh, involved with what's happening at your school. 00:13:55.975 --> 00:13:58.795 And so I literally go through each of these areas. 00:13:59.475 --> 00:14:04.750 I. So that I can say to a school, Hey, uh, sometimes it's your, your operations piece. 00:14:04.750 --> 00:14:06.030 You're all operating on different things. 00:14:06.030 --> 00:14:08.630 When I asked you what was important to your school, I got six different answers. 00:14:09.170 --> 00:14:13.030 And, and here's a great exercise with that, and I actually just gave this to a school recently. 00:14:13.670 --> 00:14:17.990 I said, go in when you have a faculty meeting, ask your faculty this question. 00:14:19.170 --> 00:14:23.150 You are getting on an elevator to go up a, a 00:14:24.335 --> 00:14:26.995 You know, let's just say the Empire State Building, whatever the case might be. 00:14:27.775 --> 00:14:43.395 And as you are waiting there for that elevator to come and, and the doors to open, a mom and dad and their kids are coming to get on that same elevator and maybe they're rushing to get there, and, and you have your shirt on for your school and the door opens and everybody steps onto that elevator. 00:14:43.655 --> 00:14:48.795 And as the door closes, the mom or the dad looks at you and they go, oh, Gonzaga Prep. 00:14:49.265 --> 00:14:50.275 Tell me about that school. 00:14:52.120 --> 00:14:54.900 do every one of your faculty members answer it the same way? 00:14:55.770 --> 00:15:05.180 Because you have 30 seconds before that elevator door is gonna open and you have 30 seconds to tell that pa, that family, that parent everything that you want them to know. 00:15:05.750 --> 00:15:08.140 Would everybody on your faculty give that same answer? 00:15:08.840 --> 00:15:12.460 And if you have 40 faculty members and you got 39 different answers. 00:15:13.455 --> 00:15:18.075 , you have something that you need to talk about because then that says to me that your branding isn't clear. 00:15:18.175 --> 00:15:23.275 Now I recognize that somebody might say, oh, we have a great fine arts program and we have a great English department. 00:15:23.275 --> 00:15:25.355 We have and And you're being complimentary. 00:15:25.355 --> 00:15:28.195 But what's that one thing that you want people to know about you? 00:15:28.735 --> 00:15:30.475 And what's that brand that you want it to be? 00:15:30.575 --> 00:15:38.795 And that was something that as a principal, we would actually talk about with our faculty is that exact question of, you have 30 seconds to tell everybody about our school. 00:15:38.795 --> 00:15:39.435 What would you say? 00:15:39.945 --> 00:15:42.555 because you want that consistent message out there. 00:15:42.635 --> 00:15:46.715 A friend of mine used to say, if you don't control the message, the message will control you. 00:15:47.265 --> 00:15:47.555 Okay. 00:15:48.215 --> 00:15:54.155 And if you're, and, and, and this was the other thing I have heard, and it's a great, great observation for it. 00:15:54.575 --> 00:15:56.915 The story you tell about your school is gonna get out there. 00:15:57.930 --> 00:16:00.630 but if the story doesn't come from you, you probably are not gonna like it. 00:16:01.370 --> 00:16:10.070 And so you wanna make sure that you're getting out there in front of what the message is so that you are controlling the narrative about your school and what's happening in your school. 00:16:10.450 --> 00:16:13.950 And that creates trust and that commu that creates engagement within your community. 00:16:14.660 --> 00:16:16.530 Which is just gonna help your enrollment dollars. 00:16:16.670 --> 00:16:25.570 Uh, your enrollment, uh, numbers is gonna help your advancement dollars, which then in turn allows for you to do more things at your school, more improvements, bring in more enhancements, things like that. 00:16:26.110 --> 00:16:34.210 It snowballs, but people have to take a minute to ask those first questions so that you can have those key successes down the line. 00:16:35.105 --> 00:16:41.205 Jethro D. Jones: And this is where that's so important is that if you say that 32nd pitch, that everybody is the same on. 00:16:41.895 --> 00:16:47.475 And so we have this clear, consistent message of what's going out, and then they ask a follow-up question. 00:16:48.055 --> 00:17:00.115 You can take that in a number of different ways, but by having that clear 32nd pitch of this is what our school is about, it makes it possible for everybody to be on the same page about what is it that we're really trying to do. 00:17:00.655 --> 00:17:15.595 And here's the key that people often . Forget about is that when that's the key focus and everybody knows that's what it is, and you can say it in 30 seconds, then all of your other decisions become aligned to that and become in support of doing that. 00:17:15.695 --> 00:17:29.755 And uh, in, in this book study that I'm doing right now, uh, that's in one of the key takeaways for the participants is that they're realizing that if they can't say succinctly what it is that they're about, then 00:17:31.235 --> 00:17:36.095 It, it just doesn't work and they just don't communicate clearly what's really going on. 00:17:36.435 --> 00:17:47.975 And, and to that piece, you talked a little bit about, uh, parent reviews about your school and one of the principals in that group, um, said this, that I thought was so powerful. 00:17:48.555 --> 00:17:53.175 Um, he said that he's going to, when he does surveys, he's going to say. 00:17:54.170 --> 00:17:58.650 I want to hear what your dinner conversations are around the table, about our school. 00:17:59.230 --> 00:18:07.850 And, and by asking for that kind of feedback, he saw an increase in responses to what people were willing to give him feedback about. 00:18:08.070 --> 00:18:14.770 And uh, and his is a Christian school, not a Catholic school specifically, but the idea there is the same that 00:18:15.610 --> 00:18:29.015 Because he cared so much about their individual responses, they, and he told them, they were willing to tell him what was really going on, and that it wasn't just a, oh yeah, sure, uh, I'll give you feedback on this. 00:18:29.015 --> 00:18:32.615 Click, click, click survey, or I won't even answer it, which is much more common. 00:18:33.195 --> 00:18:41.615 And he said that his response rates were up from just making that one little change of being intentional about what he's asking specifically. 00:18:42.255 --> 00:18:44.695 John Mihalyo: Well, and and I think I'll go a step further on that one. 00:18:44.885 --> 00:18:45.175 Okay. 00:18:46.685 --> 00:18:54.735 He's also, you, you need to, you wanna have people having those parent conversations or those dinnertime conversations, but what are you giving 'em to talk about? 00:18:55.685 --> 00:18:55.845 Jethro D. Jones: Yeah. 00:18:56.105 --> 00:19:04.155 John Mihalyo: give those, create those opportunities for those dinner conversations to happen, and then it's even gonna go a step further with that feedback of things. 00:19:04.505 --> 00:19:04.795 Okay. 00:19:05.495 --> 00:19:05.715 Um, 00:19:05.995 --> 00:19:06.715 Jethro D. Jones: that a little bit more. 00:19:06.715 --> 00:19:06.955 John. 00:19:06.955 --> 00:19:09.075 What do you mean by give them topics to talk about? 00:19:09.105 --> 00:19:09.995 What does that look like? 00:19:10.405 --> 00:19:13.935 John Mihalyo: well, I think it's creating those moments within your school setting. 00:19:14.850 --> 00:19:18.180 That gives people those opportunities for conversations at home. 00:19:18.770 --> 00:19:19.060 Okay. 00:19:19.660 --> 00:19:22.540 I give you a, a, a a a really neat one here. 00:19:22.600 --> 00:19:28.100 Do you think if, uh, the principal came through your classroom juggling on a unicycle? 00:19:28.580 --> 00:19:31.710 I. Do you think that that would make parent conversation at home, at the dinner table? 00:19:31.870 --> 00:19:32.910 I, I absolutely guarantee you. 00:19:32.930 --> 00:19:44.190 Now, I'm not advocating for that, but what I'm saying is that's something that unique that would stand out, that you've created an opportunity for people to say, oh, you're never gonna believe what happened today. 00:19:44.750 --> 00:19:49.010 so when we talk about those things, jetro, just what are we doing to create those opportunities? 00:19:49.190 --> 00:19:52.010 Is it, uh, a, a great lesson that happened in class? 00:19:52.110 --> 00:19:54.290 Is it a great, uh, assembly that you have? 00:19:54.310 --> 00:19:55.650 Is it a pep rally that you have? 00:19:56.150 --> 00:20:00.650 Uh, did, did, did, was there a special announcement when somebody's birthday was recognized? 00:20:00.650 --> 00:20:06.730 What are we doing to create those opportunities for families to have those dinnertime conversations with each other? 00:20:07.210 --> 00:20:09.140 Because that's where it all starts right there. 00:20:09.320 --> 00:20:13.940 And I think what we want is when we talk about parent partnerships, that's truly what it is. 00:20:13.940 --> 00:20:19.860 There has to be that equal, uh, equal interest in the success of the school. 00:20:20.090 --> 00:20:24.700 It's not just a come when we need you or come whenever we are gonna need a fundraising thing or something like that. 00:20:25.320 --> 00:20:28.540 We truly want create those parent partnerships at home. 00:20:29.145 --> 00:20:33.075 Jethro D. Jones: Well, and and to that point, John, this is something that I am really. 00:20:33.880 --> 00:20:39.340 Uh, a strong advocate for is that we're not asking parents to partner with us. 00:20:39.920 --> 00:20:42.500 We are partnering with parents in raising their children. 00:20:42.720 --> 00:20:50.140 And that small distinction, I think means all the world, uh, to parents that we're not saying, send your kids to us and we'll raise them. 00:20:50.320 --> 00:20:52.980 We are saying, oh, you're raising some kids. 00:20:53.825 --> 00:20:57.725 We should be part of that because we can help you in a lot of really powerful ways. 00:20:58.345 --> 00:21:11.245 And, and then the fundraiser, the, the ask for time, money and, and all that stuff becomes much less of an ask because you are, you are an active participant with them and helping them raise their child. 00:21:11.265 --> 00:21:15.245 And it's not, it's not like they're sending their kid to you for you to do everything. 00:21:15.545 --> 00:21:18.005 You're, you're helping them more than they're helping you. 00:21:19.225 --> 00:21:47.115 John Mihalyo: And if you think about this one from this perspective, and I, and I know in, in a public school setting, um, sometimes you have, and, and I remember from my days in a public school, we literally had a year where for a kindergarten class, a group of students were at school a. And then for their first grade year, they went to school B and their second grade year they went to school C and then finally finished up at school D because that's the way that the, the growth in the system was gonna be. 00:21:47.735 --> 00:21:52.195 So a kid would go to four different places over four different years, which is very, very stressful for a parent. 00:21:52.295 --> 00:21:56.995 And you talk about trying to get to know US school community and environment and things like that when you know it's gonna change in a year. 00:21:57.635 --> 00:22:03.835 I think we talk about our Catholic schools, we are basically saying to our parents, listen, you are gonna enroll here in preschool. 00:22:04.625 --> 00:22:11.605 You're gonna be with us through fifth grade or eighth grade or 12th grade in some instances, and you're with us. 00:22:12.185 --> 00:22:12.685 We are here. 00:22:12.745 --> 00:22:13.605 You're gonna be here. 00:22:14.055 --> 00:22:17.285 We're gonna grow together, we're gonna watch your kiddos. 00:22:17.285 --> 00:22:24.765 And that was one of my favorite things to do as a principal of a pre-K through eighth grade school, was I could watch those little ones come in during their preschool years. 00:22:25.305 --> 00:22:38.650 And then when they got up to those fifth, sixth, seventh, eighth grade years when they were getting promoted or graduating out to, to a high school level, . It was fun to see because you know those kids from when they were this high and now they're taller than you are. 00:22:39.080 --> 00:22:39.370 Okay. 00:22:39.750 --> 00:22:48.770 And so I think that's something that's just so rewarding for our Catholic schools is, is, you know, your Catholic school's not gonna be expanding and splitting into two and things like that. 00:22:49.220 --> 00:22:52.810 These are gonna be, families are gonna be with you from day one. 00:22:53.430 --> 00:22:57.090 And this is what I think we have to keep in mind as Catholic school principals is. 00:22:57.620 --> 00:23:05.090 These families that start at your school wanna know they are gonna finish at your school and what's gonna make them kind of press pause on things? 00:23:05.280 --> 00:23:18.850 Well, if your school culture is not great, or if your tuition gets to the point where it's unaffordable, because that's what they wanna know is, is am I gonna be able to afford this when my kids in eighth grade at this point, uh, my kid's a kindergarten now, and I heard that from a lot of different parents. 00:23:18.910 --> 00:23:20.910 Hey, . What do you see the tuition rate going? 00:23:20.910 --> 00:23:22.590 Because we wanna make sure that we can stay here. 00:23:22.590 --> 00:23:25.910 This is a, it's a, it's a stress for a lot of families. 00:23:26.010 --> 00:23:28.150 It is a sacrifice for a lot of families. 00:23:28.690 --> 00:23:30.310 And, and that's a big piece of the puzzle. 00:23:30.450 --> 00:23:33.750 So how do we make sure that we are communicating and showing that value? 00:23:34.020 --> 00:23:45.610 Because we all know there are schools in the Washington DC area, uh, that are 40, 50, $60,000 a year for a high school, and there's a wait list to get in, okay? 00:23:45.720 --> 00:23:48.450 Because people will pay that if they see the value there. 00:23:49.020 --> 00:23:50.520 How do we create that value? 00:23:50.620 --> 00:23:54.800 How do we create those opportunities to show what makes your brand unique? 00:23:55.310 --> 00:23:58.920 What makes your brand so special that people say, I have to have this? 00:23:59.090 --> 00:24:00.600 Again, there's two ways of looking at things. 00:24:01.100 --> 00:24:01.920 What's your tuition? 00:24:01.920 --> 00:24:05.200 Our tuition is X. Oh my gosh, that's a big tuition number right there. 00:24:05.200 --> 00:24:13.320 You're telling me I gotta pay that for this, or the opposite of that is, wait a minute, you're telling me I get all this for that price? 00:24:13.630 --> 00:24:14.480 Sign me up today. 00:24:15.715 --> 00:24:15.915 Jethro D. Jones: Yeah. 00:24:16.695 --> 00:24:18.305 Well, and, and here's the thing. 00:24:18.605 --> 00:24:25.035 You, when you can correctly articulate the value it, it needs to go. 00:24:25.875 --> 00:24:27.295 It, it needs to go both ways. 00:24:27.475 --> 00:24:30.535 And this is how it works in, in every industry out there. 00:24:30.535 --> 00:24:38.335 When you buy something, you buy something because it costs you less in money for the value that you're gonna get for it. 00:24:38.635 --> 00:24:46.695 And people sell things because it costs them less in creating it then they can sell it for, and that is the way that the world works. 00:24:46.955 --> 00:24:54.735 And so if people feel like they are getting more value from your school than they are paying for, then that is an incredible value for them. 00:24:55.315 --> 00:25:03.215 Uh, but if they feel like they are not getting the value that they're paying for, then it's exceptionally frustrating and they don't want to be part of it. 00:25:03.315 --> 00:25:23.295 And what's really challenging is for public schools, especially, where people are not paying directly for your school through tuition, but if they think that the taxes that they pay are not valuable for the education they're getting at your school, then they're willing then to pay extra money. 00:25:23.870 --> 00:25:32.570 To go get that education someplace else, else where they feel like their money is mattering and it is making a difference in their child's education. 00:25:32.590 --> 00:25:38.410 And, and that's a reality that a lot of educators, especially public school educators just don't really understand. 00:25:38.950 --> 00:25:42.010 Um, before we move on, I want to go back to something you said before. 00:25:42.845 --> 00:25:49.435 Which was the idea of, um, of giving your students something to talk about at the dinner table. 00:25:50.135 --> 00:26:02.435 And the best compliment that I ever got from my middle school parents when, when I was still a principal, was that they would tell me, my child is talking about school and they have never talked about school. 00:26:03.055 --> 00:26:05.515 And that was the coolest thing. 00:26:05.575 --> 00:26:17.080 And when that happened, I was like, we are doing something right because . Our kids are going home and talking to their parents about what happened at school, and most of the time that was a good thing. 00:26:17.350 --> 00:26:21.120 Sometimes that was not a good thing, but both those things happened. 00:26:21.140 --> 00:26:25.200 But the fact that the kids were talking about it was a huge win and something that. 00:26:26.430 --> 00:26:31.330 Up to that point I hadn't ever seen, uh, in, in schools as a whole. 00:26:31.430 --> 00:26:37.410 And I'd seen it in my classroom sometimes, and I'd seen it in unique, uh, uh, single situations. 00:26:38.030 --> 00:26:44.490 But at, at my last school that was happening all the time, every time I talked to a parent, they'd be like, whoa, what are you guys doing? 00:26:44.490 --> 00:26:47.370 Because my kid is talking about school every single day. 00:26:47.710 --> 00:26:49.370 And that just doesn't happen. 00:26:49.430 --> 00:26:54.890 And that is a pretty cool experience when you, when you hit it and, and you know that you're doing something really good. 00:26:55.645 --> 00:27:00.625 John Mihalyo: And even if they are talking about bad things, they're talking about 'em. 00:27:01.140 --> 00:27:06.090 Which then opens the avenue for parents to bring those things to you, concerns that they have. 00:27:06.110 --> 00:27:08.050 So that because, okay, now here we go again. 00:27:08.320 --> 00:27:14.050 When we go back to what's your core values, and we talk about what's your mission and what's your brand of your school. 00:27:14.750 --> 00:27:33.045 If a child brings home something that they know is outside the norms of our core values at our school, and they share that with a parent who says, this is outside the norm of the core values and the mission of our school, and they bring it to you as an administrator to say, . This is outside the norms and the core value of our school. 00:27:33.425 --> 00:27:34.565 It allows you to address it. 00:27:34.565 --> 00:27:39.485 But then there's that partnership because everybody understands what those core values are. 00:27:40.065 --> 00:27:50.765 And you think about this one, I, I, I, when I give a keynote talks and I've given some keynote talks just about branding and about enrollment and about, I. But one of the things we talk about with branding is this one, and, and Jet. 00:27:50.925 --> 00:27:57.405 I know you and I are, are both big fans of Apple and that's not to turn off any, um, Android folks that are out there. 00:27:58.465 --> 00:28:05.645 But I want you to go back into, and one of the examples I give to people all the time is go back to when the first iPhones just came out. 00:28:06.715 --> 00:28:15.255 . And I remember vividly sitting in my office as a principal and my athletic director had this device in his hand. 00:28:15.255 --> 00:28:16.335 It was, it was an iPhone. 00:28:16.755 --> 00:28:18.015 And I said, what is this thing? 00:28:18.075 --> 00:28:19.655 And he said, oh, you gotta get one of these. 00:28:19.755 --> 00:28:21.735 And I said, well, why do I need to get one of these? 00:28:21.995 --> 00:28:23.175 You gotta watch what this does. 00:28:23.195 --> 00:28:31.855 And I remember he had Shazam for those of you, you that remember the Shazam app where you could listen to a a song and it would tell you who sings it and everything like that. 00:28:32.465 --> 00:28:37.125 And, and he's rambling on and on and on about all the stuff that this new iPhone does. 00:28:37.345 --> 00:28:38.805 And I said, I gotta have one of these. 00:28:39.540 --> 00:28:46.510 Okay, now I could go get the flip phone that was free, or I could pay for the iPhone, which was X amount of dollars. 00:28:46.770 --> 00:28:51.150 But I said I gotta have one of these because I'm seeing the value that it brings. 00:28:51.290 --> 00:28:51.990 And guess what? 00:28:52.260 --> 00:29:05.670 When a new iPhone comes out, a new device comes out, whatever it might be, you people that are willing to wait in line just to get the updated ones because they've created that reliability and that trust in saying, I gotta have this, even though I got this one, I gotta have this one. 00:29:05.850 --> 00:29:08.510 So when you talk about creating those word of mouth opportunities, 00:29:09.105 --> 00:29:15.205 If you think about it, how many people, I always ask this one when I give a keynote talk about branding, I say, how many of you in here have an iPhone? 00:29:15.425 --> 00:29:18.285 And usually about 75% of the room will raise their hands. 00:29:18.785 --> 00:29:21.205 And I'll say, how many of you bought it because of a commercial? 00:29:22.055 --> 00:29:24.315 And maybe there's one person whose hand is still up. 00:29:24.335 --> 00:29:28.075 And I said, then why did you buy it if you didn't see a commercial about it? 00:29:28.215 --> 00:29:29.275 How did you learn about it? 00:29:29.915 --> 00:29:30.875 Somebody else told me about it. 00:29:31.595 --> 00:29:33.055 So there's the power right there. 00:29:33.325 --> 00:29:45.015 Imagine using that kind of a power of marketing through word of mouth that you are creating within your own school to grow your school's enrollment, to grow your school's advancement efforts, to grow your school's culture. 00:29:45.485 --> 00:29:56.495 Imagine harnessing that power right there of just that opportunity to just have everybody on the same page and working from the same playbook right there. 00:29:57.115 --> 00:29:59.175 That's how important branding is right there. 00:30:00.135 --> 00:30:00.555 Jethro D. Jones: For sure. 00:30:00.855 --> 00:30:11.275 And, and so nobody buys it because of the commercial, but the commercial helps tell the story and helps them know what it is that they are getting with that value. 00:30:11.615 --> 00:30:19.755 So it's the word of mouth, it's the branding, it's the marketing, it's all this stuff coming together and the time is passed for school principals to 00:30:20.575 --> 00:30:25.955 Uh, ignore that and as principals keep ignoring that they do it at their own peril. 00:30:27.302 --> 00:30:36.362 Now, uh, as we close up here, you promised something that, uh, that you would take Gonzaga Prep and you would tell me something about that school without knowing anything about it. 00:30:36.382 --> 00:30:36.602 So 00:30:37.107 --> 00:30:49.007 John Mihalyo: So I've, I've not been, I will tell you right now that I, and this is a, um, something that you have to realize when people want to talk about your school, what is, what is your school and what are people looking for? 00:30:49.767 --> 00:30:54.847 I will bet you on the front page of Gonzaga's website, Gonzaga Prep's website, and I've not been on theirs. 00:30:54.927 --> 00:30:56.607 I don't know anything about their school. 00:30:56.747 --> 00:30:58.247 We know about it because you mentioned it. 00:30:58.792 --> 00:31:05.762 I'll bet you the word Jesuit is on that site, at least under their mission statement to say who they are. 00:31:05.982 --> 00:31:07.002 You can look at it right now. 00:31:07.142 --> 00:31:23.162 I'm, I'm on a Zoom call with you so you can see what I'm doing right now, but I will bet you that if you go on Gonzaga Preps, uh, website under the About Us, I'll bet you the word Jesuit appears multiple times or at least once, uh, because that's 00:31:24.402 --> 00:31:26.662 One of the things that Gonzaga Prep is gonna be known for. 00:31:26.962 --> 00:31:32.182 So why would you not be touting that as a, as a Jesuit affiliate or Jesuit school? 00:31:32.642 --> 00:31:33.502 So you can check that. 00:31:34.062 --> 00:31:40.622 Jethro D. Jones: I, I actually did check it 'cause I, I figured it'd be something that you'd be able to tell me was on the website and sure enough, homepage. 00:31:41.032 --> 00:31:51.102 First thing, our mission, Gonzaga Preparatory School is a Catholic Jesuit college preparatory school that educates students according to gospel values, inspiring leaders who create a more just and loving world. 00:31:51.762 --> 00:31:55.502 Uh, that's not on like a little, uh, carousel that cycles through. 00:31:55.502 --> 00:31:58.622 That is a solid, that that is right there. 00:31:58.972 --> 00:31:59.262 Boom. 00:31:59.552 --> 00:32:00.302 First page. 00:32:00.402 --> 00:32:00.822 That's 00:32:00.837 --> 00:32:03.317 John Mihalyo: and, and, and here's the thing I would say. 00:32:04.112 --> 00:32:05.252 To school leaders out there. 00:32:05.352 --> 00:32:10.332 And this is the comparison, I give school leaders all the time and I guess I'll, I'll kind of close with this one. 00:32:11.042 --> 00:32:16.572 Everybody has seen the movie, uh, finding Nemo, and if you haven't seen it, go watch it 'cause it's entertaining movie. 00:32:17.162 --> 00:32:24.292 There's a scene at the beginning where the little fish is trying to cross the street, so to speak, and there's chaos going all around. 00:32:24.582 --> 00:32:30.732 There are just fish swimming every which direction and he's having a hard time getting across because there's so much traffic. 00:32:31.642 --> 00:32:31.932 Okay. 00:32:31.932 --> 00:32:32.812 Just think about it. 00:32:32.812 --> 00:32:40.612 If that's the messaging of your school right now, what that says about what's happening, what message does that convey to parents? 00:32:41.202 --> 00:32:56.092 Then you think a little bit later on the movie when NEMO is, uh, or when the, the, the fisher and the, the, the stream with the turtles and everything like that, and they're all going the same direction and they're all kind of going in the same place. 00:32:57.187 --> 00:33:00.887 and there is your piece right there, which is your alignment piece. 00:33:01.457 --> 00:33:11.847 We're all kind of moving in the same direction, but then I want you to think about the the scenes where like somebody will say, Hey, have you seen this person and a whole school of fish at the same time? 00:33:12.237 --> 00:33:14.687 Form an arrow to point that way. 00:33:15.687 --> 00:33:17.257 There's your integration. 00:33:18.157 --> 00:33:19.817 So if you can go from chaos. 00:33:20.852 --> 00:33:27.392 To alignment, to integration with the mission of your school and the branding of your school. 00:33:28.002 --> 00:33:40.112 Think of how much better your school is gonna be for your students, for your families, for your faculty, and for yourself as a principal, because that's all it's integrated. 00:33:40.382 --> 00:33:44.232 Everybody's just playing from the same sheet of music right there. 00:33:44.702 --> 00:33:51.272 Just think about those three visuals in your head, the chaos, the alignment, and the integration. 00:33:51.452 --> 00:33:58.112 And boy, just think of what your school would look like if it was fully integrated into that common branding and that common mission. 00:33:59.292 --> 00:33:59.582 Jethro D. Jones: Yeah. 00:33:59.602 --> 00:34:00.342 That's beautiful. 00:34:00.342 --> 00:34:02.142 That's a, that's a great place to end. 00:34:02.742 --> 00:34:06.442 Now one of the things that I want to just highlight is. 00:34:07.202 --> 00:34:14.702 Uh, there's a lot that goes into this and there's a lot of different perspectives and different things that you can have as part of this. 00:34:15.162 --> 00:34:21.822 And the real thing that that matters in this is that you are doing something right. 00:34:21.842 --> 00:34:26.862 You don't have to be perfect at it, but you need to be at least intentional about it. 00:34:27.162 --> 00:34:35.717 And so, even if your school is a . Right now a terrible school, you can be aspirational and say, this is where I want to get to. 00:34:35.717 --> 00:34:38.997 This is what I want to do, and, and that really matters. 00:34:39.057 --> 00:34:49.357 So my last question for you, John, is this, what is one thing that a principal can do this week to improve the branding of their school and be a transformative principal like you? 00:34:51.722 --> 00:35:00.202 John Mihalyo: I think one of the biggest things that I would advise principals to do is to take a deep breath and. 00:35:02.177 --> 00:35:09.377 Recognize that what they are knowing is the problem Everybody else probably already knows. 00:35:09.872 --> 00:35:10.162 Jethro D. Jones: Yeah. 00:35:10.477 --> 00:35:19.057 John Mihalyo: And don't be afraid and don't try to slap lipstick on a pig and say, nah, no, I think I can make this, uh, go away kind of thing. 00:35:19.932 --> 00:35:25.032 Uh, I always wanted to be the first one to know there was a problem rather than the last one. 00:35:25.972 --> 00:35:37.952 And if you're honest with yourself and things aren't going well, if, if your enrollment used to be at 300 and your enrollment right now is at one 20, everybody probably has already figured out that your school's struggling for some reason. 00:35:38.812 --> 00:35:46.792 If you were doing a, a fundraising event and nobody showed up for it, that probably sends a message that either you picked a really bad day. 00:35:47.537 --> 00:35:53.117 Or something's not going real well, and so the question I would ask you is, what is it? 00:35:53.692 --> 00:35:56.142 That is causing things not to go well. 00:35:56.442 --> 00:36:03.502 And if it's your brand, you can fix these things because sometimes it's just a matter of improving your communication. 00:36:03.502 --> 00:36:06.902 Sometimes it's just a matter of improving how you're doing things. 00:36:07.322 --> 00:36:18.942 Uh, one school that I worked with, the, the biggest thing they needed to do was to change the format of their newsletter because the way they were, were sending it out versus the way that parents were receiving it. 00:36:19.372 --> 00:36:20.302 Were not connecting. 00:36:21.187 --> 00:36:27.927 and it was that simple adjustment to something that they were able to do, which started them on a path of growth. 00:36:28.547 --> 00:36:33.327 And they saw just in one year, they've seen a tremendous increase in enrollment right there. 00:36:33.787 --> 00:36:38.287 Uh, and, and it's, and it's, it, things are looking really, really good for this school now. 00:36:38.307 --> 00:36:40.727 And so it's something that I'm really excited about. 00:36:40.867 --> 00:36:45.527 So what I would say to that principal is don't be afraid. 00:36:46.747 --> 00:36:51.047 To say it out loud of I think this is a problem and let's tackle it head on. 00:36:51.267 --> 00:36:54.447 And obviously j you know, me, I, I, this is what I do. 00:36:54.567 --> 00:37:01.087 I help these kind of schools that are wanting to get better with, maybe it's a school that's really struggling and they just wanna get to good. 00:37:01.087 --> 00:37:08.527 Or maybe it's a good school that wants to get to great, we all wanna get all of our schools to great, but you're not gonna get there in one day. 00:37:09.067 --> 00:37:13.007 And, and there's a great Covey concept that he used to talk about called the Law of the Harvest. 00:37:13.997 --> 00:37:27.377 If you go out and you plant, uh, uh, crops in the field today and you water them, and you expect that tomorrow morning you're gonna have a, a whole field of corn or wheat or whatever the product, the, the, the produce is that you just put in, you're gonna be disappointed. 00:37:28.047 --> 00:37:31.537 It's not gonna happen overnight, but you have to get things ready. 00:37:31.537 --> 00:37:34.697 You have to water it, you have to tend it, you have to get rid of the weeds. 00:37:35.342 --> 00:37:38.282 And that's when you're gonna see a bountiful harvest. 00:37:38.552 --> 00:37:41.802 When it comes time, it's not gonna happen overnight. 00:37:42.102 --> 00:37:53.682 Yes, there are some things that you can do to fix things in a 30 to 45 day window right there that are gonna drastically help that long-term piece of things and, and those are things that I help schools with all the time. 00:37:54.272 --> 00:38:03.332 And sometimes it's just those little bit of tweaking to the messaging piece that makes such a big difference to schools, to allow them to just reap a bountiful harvest. 00:38:03.512 --> 00:38:06.772 So, uh, if I can help the school, I, I, I love to do this. 00:38:06.772 --> 00:38:08.372 This is something I really get excited about. 00:38:08.372 --> 00:38:13.132 You've, you've kind of seen the, uh, reporting that I give the schools, just how thorough it is. 00:38:13.472 --> 00:38:18.292 Uh, I go through a whole different, uh, allotment of things to say, Hey, these are the things that, this is how you're doing here. 00:38:18.292 --> 00:38:18.892 This is how you're doing here. 00:38:19.177 --> 00:38:22.837 Uh, it's, it's a great tool that schools are really, really benefiting from. 00:38:22.837 --> 00:38:24.317 And so I'm, I'm really happy about that. 00:38:24.772 --> 00:38:25.062 Jethro D. Jones: Yeah. 00:38:25.162 --> 00:38:30.862 And you can go check out all the stuff that John does at uh, elementary advancement.com. 00:38:30.882 --> 00:38:31.822 Is that the right website? 00:38:32.037 --> 00:38:33.717 John Mihalyo: correct, elementary advancement.com. 00:38:33.777 --> 00:38:38.557 And, uh, I also have the Catholic School Leaders Podcast out there as well, which you know all about. 00:38:38.617 --> 00:38:43.797 And so, uh, yeah, so any way I can help people, I am here, connect with me on LinkedIn. 00:38:43.857 --> 00:38:47.077 I'd love to connect with you on LinkedIn so that we can grow together as well. 00:38:47.462 --> 00:38:47.752 Jethro D. Jones: Yeah. 00:38:47.852 --> 00:38:55.472 And if you, if you are a leading a Catholic school and you are not listening to Catholic School Leaders podcast, uh, you are definitely missing out. 00:38:55.612 --> 00:38:55.832 Uh. 00:38:56.942 --> 00:38:58.382 A great, great show. 00:38:58.572 --> 00:39:04.822 John has a unique perspective for you Catholic school leaders, and you should definitely check it out. 00:39:04.822 --> 00:39:13.302 So there are links to, uh, his LinkedIn, his website, and, uh, his podcast in the show notes@transformativeprinciple.org. 00:39:13.652 --> 00:39:17.342 John, thank you so much for joining me today and it was great to chat with you. 00:39:18.262 --> 00:39:19.272 John Mihalyo: It's always great to see you. 00:39:19.272 --> 00:39:20.072 I appreciate the time.