1 00:00:18,540 --> 00:00:29,220 Kevin: welcome to svelte radio hello everyone welcome back to another episode of svelte radio So, hi, Jeppe. 2 00:00:29,420 --> 00:00:30,080 Speaker 2: How are you doing? 3 00:00:30,140 --> 00:00:31,680 Speaker 2: Hi, Kev. I'm doing great. How are you? 4 00:00:32,279 --> 00:00:32,840 Speaker 2: Nice. I 5 00:00:32,840 --> 00:00:35,460 Kevin: am very excited about this episode. 6 00:00:35,960 --> 00:00:37,760 Kevin: We didn't know what we were going to talk about today 7 00:00:37,760 --> 00:00:39,380 Speaker 3: until 8 00:00:39,380 --> 00:00:41,400 Kevin: you posted this link earlier 9 00:00:41,400 --> 00:00:42,580 Speaker 3: today, I think. 10 00:00:43,040 --> 00:00:43,140 Speaker 3: Yeah. 11 00:00:44,280 --> 00:00:48,020 Kevin: First off, Brittany's not here. She's enjoying herself in Hawaii, I think. 12 00:00:48,580 --> 00:00:48,940 Kevin: Sounds awful. 13 00:00:49,740 --> 00:00:53,560 Speaker 2: I feel like we should... I mean, I'm mad because I hate the cold. 14 00:00:53,980 --> 00:00:57,840 Speaker 2: I hate the cold so much. And so she just escapes it. 15 00:00:58,760 --> 00:01:02,100 Speaker 2: I'm just sitting here in the cold yeah in the cold 16 00:01:03,330 --> 00:01:10,840 Kevin: yeah do you have you have it been has it been like really cold for a really long time in Denmark as well I think I think for two weeks yeah 17 00:01:11,010 --> 00:01:21,520 Speaker 2: I mean that's I can do one day or two days of snow that's fine we do all the like the thing the fun thing you do in the snow and then it's over for me please can we get back to summer 18 00:01:22,020 --> 00:01:24,480 Kevin: yeah well summer is a far way 19 00:01:24,980 --> 00:01:25,380 Speaker 2: oh yeah 20 00:01:25,560 --> 00:01:32,700 Kevin: right yeah Yeah, we've had like negative five to negative 10 here, like for a month now. 21 00:01:33,140 --> 00:01:33,520 Kevin: It's not okay. 22 00:01:34,040 --> 00:01:36,740 Kevin: No, it's like I'm getting tired of this. 23 00:01:37,240 --> 00:01:38,200 Speaker 3: Can we cancel 24 00:01:38,200 --> 00:01:38,560 Speaker 2: winter? 25 00:01:39,180 --> 00:01:40,440 Kevin: Yeah, right, right. 26 00:01:41,720 --> 00:01:45,580 Kevin: My friend in Barcelona, she helped with the conference 27 00:01:45,580 --> 00:01:46,560 Speaker 3: for 28 00:01:46,560 --> 00:01:46,720 Kevin: a bit. 29 00:01:48,460 --> 00:01:50,760 Kevin: She lives in Barcelona, but she's Swedish, right? 30 00:01:51,160 --> 00:01:55,020 Kevin: And she posted this picture on Instagram where she's like laying by the pool. 31 00:01:55,440 --> 00:01:55,940 Speaker 2: Oh, no. 32 00:01:58,960 --> 00:02:00,800 Kevin: gosh damn it so 33 00:02:00,800 --> 00:02:10,720 Speaker 2: for many years i've said this to my wife that i really wish that we just lived in barcelona but then she also reminds me that in the summer it's it's impossible to 34 00:02:10,720 --> 00:02:11,740 Speaker 3: exist in 35 00:02:11,740 --> 00:02:17,580 Speaker 2: that heat yeah as a dane like i can't anything above 20 degrees celsius i'm just melting 36 00:02:17,580 --> 00:02:21,040 Kevin: yeah and that's I would be like a roasting pig. 37 00:02:22,250 --> 00:02:22,360 Kevin: Exactly. 38 00:02:24,760 --> 00:02:25,200 Speaker 2: Yeah, I'm 39 00:02:25,200 --> 00:02:26,940 Kevin: trying to convince my girlfriend that 40 00:02:26,940 --> 00:02:27,780 Speaker 2: we should live 41 00:02:27,780 --> 00:02:28,340 Kevin: in two places. 42 00:02:29,040 --> 00:02:32,140 Speaker 2: So welcome to Weather Radio, where everything is all about the weather. 43 00:02:34,020 --> 00:02:34,940 Speaker 2: Old men ranting. 44 00:02:35,700 --> 00:02:36,360 Speaker 2: Yep, yep. 45 00:02:37,360 --> 00:02:37,820 Kevin: Yeah, baby. 46 00:02:38,670 --> 00:02:42,900 Kevin: On that note, maybe we should actually get into what we were going to talk about today. 47 00:02:43,000 --> 00:02:43,060 Kevin: Absolutely. 48 00:02:43,800 --> 00:02:48,800 Speaker 2: So State of JS 2025 results was just announced. 49 00:02:49,100 --> 00:02:52,740 Speaker 2: I mean, by the time this recording gets out, it's been enough for some time. 50 00:02:52,920 --> 00:02:54,200 Speaker 2: But for us, this is new. 51 00:02:54,940 --> 00:02:55,020 Speaker 2: Yeah. 52 00:02:56,220 --> 00:02:56,820 Speaker 2: I think that's cool. 53 00:02:57,640 --> 00:03:00,000 Speaker 2: There's always a lot of great stuff in there. 54 00:03:00,520 --> 00:03:00,700 Kevin: Yeah. 55 00:03:01,000 --> 00:03:12,300 Kevin: I mentioned to Jeppe before we started recording that I always get confused by this survey because they change things and they add data points and all sorts of stuff. 56 00:03:12,700 --> 00:03:13,740 Kevin: But it's a good survey, though. 57 00:03:14,260 --> 00:03:14,520 Kevin: It is. 58 00:03:14,980 --> 00:03:15,940 Speaker 2: It's just me being 59 00:03:15,940 --> 00:03:16,200 Kevin: old. 60 00:03:16,680 --> 00:03:16,960 Speaker 2: Oh, yeah. 61 00:03:17,020 --> 00:03:17,700 Speaker 2: No, we're 62 00:03:17,700 --> 00:03:17,780 Kevin: all... 63 00:03:17,780 --> 00:03:18,540 Kevin: Shouting at the clouds. 64 00:03:18,600 --> 00:03:19,060 Kevin: I 65 00:03:19,060 --> 00:03:26,020 Speaker 2: think they have this issue that there's just more and more stuff to know and to think about in JS. 66 00:03:26,200 --> 00:03:29,340 Speaker 2: So there's more and more frameworks coming in and more and more new syntax. 67 00:03:29,530 --> 00:03:33,680 Speaker 2: And so the more data there is, the more confusing these charts just become. 68 00:03:33,800 --> 00:03:39,820 Speaker 2: There's this big chart of all the frameworks and whatever that has lines going all over the place. 69 00:03:39,820 --> 00:03:42,880 Speaker 2: And you can't understand it 70 00:03:42,880 --> 00:03:43,000 Kevin: anymore. 71 00:03:43,300 --> 00:03:44,420 Kevin: It's the one with... 72 00:03:44,420 --> 00:03:45,300 Kevin: Five years ago it was way better. 73 00:03:45,920 --> 00:03:46,460 Kevin: Yeah, yeah, yeah. 74 00:03:46,520 --> 00:03:49,860 Kevin: It's the one with like satisfaction and stuff. 75 00:03:50,080 --> 00:03:52,560 Kevin: It's just like going all over the place, like 76 00:03:52,560 --> 00:03:53,000 Speaker 3: quadrants. 77 00:03:53,650 --> 00:03:53,760 Kevin: Yeah. 78 00:03:55,740 --> 00:03:56,220 Kevin: All right. 79 00:03:56,360 --> 00:03:59,320 Kevin: So the big question, of course, is how did Svelte do? 80 00:04:00,040 --> 00:04:01,340 Speaker 2: No, no, no, no, no. 81 00:04:01,680 --> 00:04:02,620 Speaker 2: The big question. 82 00:04:03,160 --> 00:04:04,140 Kevin: How did Svelte Radio 83 00:04:04,140 --> 00:04:04,340 Speaker 2: do? 84 00:04:04,660 --> 00:04:05,080 Speaker 2: No, Svelte 85 00:04:05,080 --> 00:04:05,500 Kevin: Radio. 86 00:04:05,630 --> 00:04:06,260 Kevin: Oh, Svelte Radio. 87 00:04:06,680 --> 00:04:07,460 Kevin: Oh, this podcast. 88 00:04:08,280 --> 00:04:09,660 Kevin: I mean, if 89 00:04:09,660 --> 00:04:12,600 Speaker 2: I have to toot a horn, we have to toot our own horn first. 90 00:04:12,960 --> 00:04:13,140 Speaker 2: That 91 00:04:13,140 --> 00:04:13,520 Speaker 3: is very 92 00:04:13,520 --> 00:04:13,760 Speaker 2: true. 93 00:04:13,840 --> 00:04:20,440 Speaker 2: So there is, in the resources section, there's a podcast subsection. 94 00:04:21,120 --> 00:04:21,200 Speaker 2: Yep. 95 00:04:21,700 --> 00:04:23,540 Speaker 2: And Svelte Radio is on it. 96 00:04:23,860 --> 00:04:24,080 Kevin: That is. 97 00:04:24,100 --> 00:04:24,700 Kevin: And that's huge. 98 00:04:25,200 --> 00:04:26,120 Speaker 2: That's pretty big. 99 00:04:27,000 --> 00:04:37,200 Speaker 2: So when I saw that, I wanted to do a joke on, oh, we just need 50 times the amount of listeners to surpass syntax or whatever. 100 00:04:39,560 --> 00:04:40,780 Speaker 2: So where are we on this list? 101 00:04:40,880 --> 00:04:41,200 Speaker 2: Really close. 102 00:04:41,580 --> 00:04:43,100 Speaker 2: We are number 13. 103 00:04:43,140 --> 00:04:43,760 Speaker 2: Oh, number 13. 104 00:04:44,300 --> 00:04:44,400 Speaker 3: Oh, 105 00:04:44,500 --> 00:04:46,180 Kevin: where number one 106 00:04:46,180 --> 00:04:47,720 Speaker 2: is none, right? 107 00:04:47,770 --> 00:04:48,800 Speaker 2: So essentially we're number 12. 108 00:04:49,300 --> 00:04:50,080 Kevin: Oh, I see. 109 00:04:50,360 --> 00:04:50,740 Kevin: What? 110 00:04:51,540 --> 00:04:52,460 Kevin: Oh, no one. 111 00:04:52,680 --> 00:04:54,900 Kevin: There's 50% of people don't listen to podcasts. 112 00:04:55,050 --> 00:04:55,160 Kevin: Yeah, 113 00:04:55,160 --> 00:04:56,520 Speaker 2: 50% of people, they don't listen to podcasts at all, right? 114 00:04:56,640 --> 00:04:56,760 Kevin: So 115 00:04:56,760 --> 00:04:57,580 Speaker 3: that's like a huge 116 00:04:57,580 --> 00:04:58,200 Speaker 2: market for us. 117 00:04:58,260 --> 00:04:59,500 Speaker 2: I mean, I think we should target those people. 118 00:04:59,880 --> 00:05:04,820 Speaker 2: The people that don't listen to what we're saying right now, they are like prime listeners for this because 119 00:05:04,820 --> 00:05:05,360 Speaker 3: they don't know how 120 00:05:05,360 --> 00:05:05,940 Speaker 2: stupid we are. 121 00:05:09,920 --> 00:05:11,680 Speaker 2: No, but so then I looked into it, right? 122 00:05:11,840 --> 00:05:17,000 Speaker 2: And I think there's some pretty big podcasts that are not number 12. 123 00:05:17,470 --> 00:05:17,880 Speaker 2: Like you have 124 00:05:17,880 --> 00:05:18,480 Speaker 3: Plot Rocket 125 00:05:18,480 --> 00:05:18,920 Speaker 2: at number 126 00:05:18,920 --> 00:05:20,800 Speaker 3: 17. 127 00:05:21,410 --> 00:05:22,700 Speaker 2: You have DevTools number 18. 128 00:05:25,760 --> 00:05:26,280 Speaker 3: It's 129 00:05:26,280 --> 00:05:27,980 Speaker 2: just like one above. 130 00:05:28,070 --> 00:05:32,460 Speaker 2: I think we're in with the cool kids now, the cool grown-ups. 131 00:05:32,640 --> 00:05:32,840 Speaker 2: Yeah, 132 00:05:32,990 --> 00:05:42,560 Kevin: I mean, so I remember like two years ago when we were also on this survey, But we were on, so I think they split it, right? 133 00:05:42,660 --> 00:05:43,160 Kevin: So they had 134 00:05:43,160 --> 00:05:44,240 Speaker 3: like 135 00:05:44,240 --> 00:05:45,660 Kevin: all the big ones, right? 136 00:05:45,780 --> 00:05:46,180 Kevin: And then they 137 00:05:46,180 --> 00:05:46,800 Speaker 3: had like a free 138 00:05:46,800 --> 00:05:47,040 Kevin: form 139 00:05:47,040 --> 00:05:48,300 Speaker 3: section. 140 00:05:49,000 --> 00:05:49,480 Speaker 3: And I think we 141 00:05:49,480 --> 00:05:51,900 Kevin: won by a pretty huge margin on the free form. 142 00:05:52,240 --> 00:05:53,040 Kevin: Oh, I see. 143 00:05:54,520 --> 00:05:56,360 Kevin: But now we're mainstream, Jeppe. 144 00:05:57,720 --> 00:06:02,340 Speaker 2: Funny to say that because just below us being mainstream is off the main thread. 145 00:06:03,440 --> 00:06:04,220 Speaker 2: They're great guys. 146 00:06:04,740 --> 00:06:05,160 Speaker 2: They're great guys. 147 00:06:06,460 --> 00:06:11,700 Speaker 2: I think it puts pressure on us and we have to be less stupid now say something relevant. 148 00:06:12,100 --> 00:06:13,300 Kevin: Something relevant, yeah. 149 00:06:13,840 --> 00:06:14,180 Kevin: So 150 00:06:14,180 --> 00:06:15,800 Speaker 2: maybe not the weather. 151 00:06:15,910 --> 00:06:17,040 Speaker 2: I don't know. We'll 152 00:06:17,040 --> 00:06:17,520 Kevin: figure that out. 153 00:06:17,980 --> 00:06:18,940 Kevin: You're completely right. 154 00:06:20,020 --> 00:06:25,760 Kevin: I think this podcast has partly devolved into some kind of people hanging out, talking 155 00:06:26,460 --> 00:06:27,040 Speaker 2: and also about 156 00:06:27,040 --> 00:06:27,400 Kevin: Svelte. 157 00:06:28,480 --> 00:06:29,740 Kevin: And some people enjoy that. 158 00:06:30,540 --> 00:06:30,700 Speaker 2: Yeah. 159 00:06:31,320 --> 00:06:35,420 Speaker 2: I mean, it's all entertainment in the end. 160 00:06:37,280 --> 00:06:42,140 Speaker 2: So, staying on that topic, if people have specific that they think we should discuss 161 00:06:43,340 --> 00:06:43,820 Speaker 3: please 162 00:06:44,260 --> 00:06:45,260 Speaker 2: post it in and then we will 163 00:06:45,260 --> 00:06:45,600 Speaker 3: discuss 164 00:06:45,600 --> 00:06:48,900 Speaker 2: it we won't be smart about it but we can say words 165 00:06:49,720 --> 00:06:51,840 Speaker 3: words are super 166 00:06:51,840 --> 00:07:02,040 Speaker 2: important otherwise everything turns into music so I think that's great then of course we have to go into Svelte so I think that was enough of Svelte Radio 167 00:07:02,840 --> 00:07:03,320 Kevin: so 168 00:07:04,220 --> 00:07:05,720 Speaker 2: just finding that 169 00:07:05,820 --> 00:07:10,460 Kevin: there's a lot of pages on this thing libraries So there's 170 00:07:10,460 --> 00:07:12,260 Speaker 2: both Svelte and SvelteKit, right? 171 00:07:13,840 --> 00:07:23,120 Speaker 2: And Svelte is almost like my general analysis of this whole survey is almost the same as last year. 172 00:07:24,240 --> 00:07:25,060 Speaker 3: Can you give us a recap? 173 00:07:25,680 --> 00:07:27,300 Speaker 2: That was a recap, essentially. 174 00:07:29,539 --> 00:07:30,520 Speaker 2: Svelte grew a lot. 175 00:07:31,419 --> 00:07:33,100 Speaker 2: So there's these awards. 176 00:07:33,300 --> 00:07:36,520 Speaker 2: There's the awards section of like most enjoyed variata. 177 00:07:36,760 --> 00:07:38,700 Speaker 2: And guess who won all the awards? 178 00:07:40,060 --> 00:07:40,440 Kevin: Was it Svelte? 179 00:07:40,640 --> 00:07:41,740 Speaker 2: Was it Vite Test? 180 00:07:41,740 --> 00:07:42,420 Speaker 2: It was Vite and Vite Test. 181 00:07:42,660 --> 00:07:43,040 Speaker 2: Oh, okay. 182 00:07:46,720 --> 00:07:49,540 Kevin: Honestly, that's kind of boring in a sense. 183 00:07:50,050 --> 00:07:52,780 Kevin: Like, you know, obviously it's nice. 184 00:07:53,320 --> 00:07:53,800 Kevin: Vite is great. 185 00:07:54,480 --> 00:07:55,920 Speaker 2: Vite is awesome. It's awesome. 186 00:07:56,060 --> 00:07:57,660 Speaker 2: It's an awesome team. Like, they do amazing 187 00:07:57,660 --> 00:07:57,880 Kevin: stuff. 188 00:07:58,000 --> 00:07:58,680 Kevin: It's totally 189 00:07:58,680 --> 00:07:58,900 Speaker 2: deserved. 190 00:07:59,360 --> 00:08:02,600 Kevin: But they've already won everything, basically. 191 00:08:03,400 --> 00:08:05,060 Kevin: It's the default. It's what everyone uses. 192 00:08:05,700 --> 00:08:07,180 Kevin: Do you even have to put it on here? 193 00:08:08,060 --> 00:08:11,700 Speaker 2: Can you imagine that they revamped their API to something really bad? 194 00:08:11,710 --> 00:08:13,760 Speaker 2: And like, we have to start winning now. 195 00:08:13,990 --> 00:08:14,920 Speaker 2: That would be horrible, right? 196 00:08:14,930 --> 00:08:15,880 Speaker 2: I mean, they should just keep winning. 197 00:08:16,040 --> 00:08:17,100 Speaker 2: They should just keep doing their best. 198 00:08:17,340 --> 00:08:17,920 Kevin: I agree. 199 00:08:18,150 --> 00:08:18,420 Kevin: I agree. 200 00:08:18,600 --> 00:08:19,760 Speaker 2: I think they're doing awesome. 201 00:08:20,080 --> 00:08:28,400 Speaker 2: Anyways, Svelte is at 27% of usage, whereas last year's 26%. 202 00:08:28,400 --> 00:08:29,940 Speaker 2: So that's a win. 203 00:08:30,770 --> 00:08:31,120 Kevin: In my book. 204 00:08:31,260 --> 00:08:31,720 Speaker 2: It is a win. 205 00:08:31,990 --> 00:08:33,599 Speaker 2: It keeps rising, so that's great. 206 00:08:34,080 --> 00:08:34,219 Kevin: Yeah. 207 00:08:35,320 --> 00:08:36,380 Kevin: 1% a year. 208 00:08:37,280 --> 00:08:39,280 Kevin: It's going to take many years for us to take over. 209 00:08:39,990 --> 00:08:44,640 Speaker 2: Yeah, the next one is Angular at 48. 210 00:08:45,740 --> 00:08:49,680 Speaker 2: So that's going to be 20 years of 1% increase. 211 00:08:50,520 --> 00:08:51,080 Speaker 3: Then we'll get there. 212 00:08:51,670 --> 00:08:52,380 Speaker 3: I mean, I'll be here. 213 00:08:52,860 --> 00:08:54,000 Speaker 2: Well, of course. 214 00:08:55,000 --> 00:08:55,920 Speaker 2: We'll all be here 215 00:08:55,920 --> 00:08:56,780 Speaker 3: writing 216 00:08:56,780 --> 00:09:00,520 Speaker 2: our Svelte code so that our AIs can use our Svelte code. 217 00:09:01,120 --> 00:09:01,540 Speaker 2: Exactly. 218 00:09:02,600 --> 00:09:02,740 Speaker 3: Yeah. 219 00:09:02,840 --> 00:09:03,160 Speaker 3: Anyways, 220 00:09:04,260 --> 00:09:09,100 Speaker 2: let me look at awareness stays the same, 96%. 221 00:09:09,640 --> 00:09:12,120 Speaker 2: Interest is going down a bit? 222 00:09:12,580 --> 00:09:12,680 Speaker 2: No? 223 00:09:13,200 --> 00:09:13,660 Speaker 2: Yes, it is. 224 00:09:14,140 --> 00:09:17,080 Speaker 2: So Svelte has the highest interest and has had that for 225 00:09:17,080 --> 00:09:18,780 Speaker 3: six years now. 226 00:09:18,780 --> 00:09:19,420 Speaker 3: For a long time now. 227 00:09:20,220 --> 00:09:20,760 Speaker 2: Since 2019. 228 00:09:21,640 --> 00:09:24,780 Speaker 2: And it's declining a bit, but so are most of the others. 229 00:09:25,960 --> 00:09:30,940 Speaker 2: So I think this may be a bit of a trend that people maybe just get annoyed by. 230 00:09:31,660 --> 00:09:32,500 Kevin: Yeah, by frameworks. 231 00:09:32,720 --> 00:09:34,620 Kevin: and meta frameworks. 232 00:09:35,300 --> 00:09:35,780 Kevin: It's 233 00:09:35,780 --> 00:09:39,700 Speaker 2: interesting to see HTMX was huge two years ago. 234 00:09:41,300 --> 00:09:42,280 Kevin: They went from 235 00:09:42,800 --> 00:09:44,780 Speaker 2: 55 and then now they're at 37. 236 00:09:45,380 --> 00:09:49,700 Kevin: It's almost like it was a meme, kind of. No offense to the HTMX people. 237 00:09:50,280 --> 00:09:50,900 Speaker 3: I haven't 238 00:09:50,900 --> 00:09:51,100 Kevin: used 239 00:09:51,100 --> 00:09:52,140 Speaker 2: it, so I'm sure it's great. 240 00:09:53,140 --> 00:09:53,620 Kevin: But 241 00:09:53,620 --> 00:09:56,820 Speaker 2: there was some way that they couldn't ride in the end, it sounds like. 242 00:09:56,920 --> 00:09:57,820 Speaker 2: So that's unfortunate for them. 243 00:10:00,140 --> 00:10:00,720 Kevin: React still 244 00:10:01,740 --> 00:10:02,480 Speaker 2: the big dog. 245 00:10:02,940 --> 00:10:04,780 Speaker 2: of course not in interests right 246 00:10:04,780 --> 00:10:06,200 Kevin: so um 247 00:10:06,200 --> 00:10:10,480 Speaker 2: maybe if i share my screen we would be looking at the same thing that 248 00:10:10,480 --> 00:10:11,900 Kevin: that is also that's 249 00:10:11,900 --> 00:10:24,660 Speaker 2: a great idea uh share screen every single video recording software needs to have a different way of sharing that screen yep it's like this thing is their mode oh we'll have another way and so people 250 00:10:24,660 --> 00:10:31,660 Kevin: stay in our it's the it's the uh what's it called like the lock in the way that they keep you in? 251 00:10:32,760 --> 00:10:33,240 Kevin: You don't 252 00:10:33,240 --> 00:10:33,380 Speaker 2: want 253 00:10:33,380 --> 00:10:33,760 Speaker 3: to change 254 00:10:33,760 --> 00:10:34,760 Kevin: the video software. 255 00:10:34,820 --> 00:10:35,320 Kevin: Isn't that the moat? 256 00:10:35,330 --> 00:10:35,740 Kevin: You have to learn. 257 00:10:36,050 --> 00:10:36,460 Kevin: The moat. 258 00:10:36,530 --> 00:10:37,320 Kevin: Yeah, that's what it's called. 259 00:10:38,440 --> 00:10:39,300 Speaker 2: Solid is rising. 260 00:10:39,840 --> 00:10:42,460 Speaker 2: Solid is rising in interest. 261 00:10:42,900 --> 00:10:43,860 Speaker 2: React is at. 262 00:10:44,300 --> 00:10:44,500 Speaker 2: It's 263 00:10:44,500 --> 00:10:45,060 Speaker 3: still going 264 00:10:45,060 --> 00:10:45,300 Speaker 2: down. 265 00:10:45,740 --> 00:10:45,860 Speaker 2: Yeah. 266 00:10:46,380 --> 00:10:50,680 Speaker 2: So React started all the way back in 2016 at 75% interest. 267 00:10:50,810 --> 00:10:53,540 Speaker 2: I think this might have been like the first time they did this survey. 268 00:10:54,120 --> 00:10:56,760 Speaker 2: 75% interest and then they're at 27% now. 269 00:10:58,100 --> 00:10:58,800 Kevin: That's crazy. 270 00:11:00,540 --> 00:11:08,920 Speaker 2: I don't want to just like this be a full episode of just all us just talking about charts going or graphs going down. 271 00:11:09,320 --> 00:11:09,480 Speaker 2: Right. 272 00:11:10,080 --> 00:11:11,820 Speaker 2: But I think there's a trend here. 273 00:11:12,160 --> 00:11:16,540 Speaker 2: The older something gets, the less interest it gets. 274 00:11:16,540 --> 00:11:16,700 Speaker 2: And 275 00:11:16,700 --> 00:11:17,540 Speaker 3: satisfaction 276 00:11:17,540 --> 00:11:19,080 Speaker 2: also goes down and whatnot. 277 00:11:21,780 --> 00:11:23,680 Speaker 2: There is something there, though, about 278 00:11:23,680 --> 00:11:27,700 Kevin: like React has kind of reinvented itself multiple times, right? 279 00:11:27,880 --> 00:11:28,060 Kevin: True. 280 00:11:28,640 --> 00:11:31,960 Kevin: So I think Hooks came out in, was that 2019? 281 00:11:31,960 --> 00:11:32,480 Speaker 3: 18. 282 00:11:32,840 --> 00:11:33,260 Kevin: 18? 283 00:11:33,580 --> 00:11:34,120 Speaker 2: 18, 19. 284 00:11:34,420 --> 00:11:39,860 Kevin: So you kind of would have expected a kind of a rise there, and then maybe with React Server Components. 285 00:11:40,380 --> 00:11:44,820 Kevin: But from my understanding, they're not super popular. 286 00:11:45,120 --> 00:11:47,040 Kevin: Like people that use them like them, but- 287 00:11:47,600 --> 00:11:49,560 Speaker 2: There's also people that have used them that don't like them. 288 00:11:49,720 --> 00:11:50,020 Speaker 2: Right. 289 00:11:50,600 --> 00:11:56,700 Speaker 2: Like there's these big names that have like, OK, we tried to move to React Server Components for six months. 290 00:11:56,990 --> 00:11:57,760 Speaker 2: It made everything slower. 291 00:11:58,400 --> 00:12:00,360 Speaker 2: and really complicated, we're moving back. 292 00:12:00,820 --> 00:12:02,760 Speaker 2: And I think that's a fair sentiment. 293 00:12:03,000 --> 00:12:03,620 Speaker 2: I've spent 294 00:12:03,620 --> 00:12:04,040 Speaker 3: a lot of time 295 00:12:04,040 --> 00:12:06,560 Speaker 2: looking into it, and I also find it very confusing. 296 00:12:08,220 --> 00:12:11,940 Speaker 2: But, I mean, they're really smart people, so maybe they'll figure it out. 297 00:12:12,480 --> 00:12:12,560 Kevin: Right. 298 00:12:12,980 --> 00:12:16,100 Kevin: I mean, yeah, it's kind of an issue, though. 299 00:12:16,160 --> 00:12:20,440 Kevin: I'm not only talking about React here, but framework developers in general. 300 00:12:21,000 --> 00:12:28,940 Kevin: When you get to the point where your job is to develop a framework rather than develop a tool that you're using yourself. 301 00:12:29,150 --> 00:12:31,320 Kevin: You're not dogfooding it, right? 302 00:12:31,780 --> 00:12:39,880 Kevin: And I think there's a risk there where it just, like, you come up with cool, smart solutions that probably 303 00:12:39,880 --> 00:12:40,680 Speaker 3: theoretically are 304 00:12:40,680 --> 00:12:42,100 Kevin: very, very good. 305 00:12:42,430 --> 00:12:44,400 Kevin: But then in practice, they kind of fall apart because, 306 00:12:44,930 --> 00:12:45,220 Speaker 2: I don't know. 307 00:12:45,220 --> 00:12:48,500 Speaker 2: So what you're saying is that you become a library engineer. 308 00:12:49,060 --> 00:12:55,840 Speaker 2: And so you have, like, you think you know how to build websites, but then that's actually not how people do it in reality. 309 00:12:56,590 --> 00:12:56,700 Speaker 2: Right. 310 00:12:56,790 --> 00:12:57,680 Speaker 2: Well, you might 311 00:12:57,680 --> 00:13:02,400 Kevin: know how you built websites like five years ago, right? 312 00:13:03,380 --> 00:13:05,200 Kevin: Yeah, like you said, things change. 313 00:13:05,740 --> 00:13:05,860 Kevin: Yeah, 314 00:13:06,020 --> 00:13:06,300 Speaker 3: for sure. 315 00:13:06,370 --> 00:13:14,720 Kevin: And then also you get down into this, maybe you get down into this rabbit hole of trying to solve some performance issue and 316 00:13:14,720 --> 00:13:15,500 Speaker 3: that 317 00:13:15,500 --> 00:13:22,960 Kevin: takes up 80% of your time when you could have spent more time on the developer experience, if that makes sense. 318 00:13:23,100 --> 00:13:25,960 Speaker 2: I think we also need to put this into perspective, right? 319 00:13:25,960 --> 00:13:28,680 Speaker 2: I'm just pulling up NPM trends. 320 00:13:29,560 --> 00:13:38,020 Speaker 2: So if we compare, like we've talked about how React is declining in satisfaction and interest. 321 00:13:38,400 --> 00:13:41,560 Speaker 2: But then if you look at NPM trends, the downloads just keep going up. 322 00:13:43,220 --> 00:13:46,540 Speaker 2: There's 70 million weekly downloads of React now. 323 00:13:46,840 --> 00:13:52,680 Speaker 2: So I understand that there's a lot of people that keep downloading these things, they 324 00:13:52,680 --> 00:13:53,360 Kevin: also 325 00:13:53,360 --> 00:13:56,220 Speaker 2: use them more and more and more. So, right. 326 00:13:57,320 --> 00:14:08,600 Kevin: Yeah. So essentially, you would kind of think that the NPM trends would follow the interest somewhat. Yeah. But 327 00:14:08,600 --> 00:14:10,320 Speaker 3: then there's difference 328 00:14:10,320 --> 00:14:15,180 Kevin: between like wanting to use something and having to use it, I guess. Absolutely. Yeah, for sure. 329 00:14:15,300 --> 00:14:17,140 Speaker 3: And there's also a lag here. I 330 00:14:17,140 --> 00:14:23,620 Speaker 2: think the people that answers these surveys, they are like really tuned in to the ecosystem. 331 00:14:24,320 --> 00:14:24,720 Speaker 3: And 332 00:14:24,720 --> 00:14:40,580 Speaker 2: then there's a long tail of enterprise engineers and everyone that makes money that, like, OK, we'll be using React now because React has been used for five years or whatever, or Angular or Svelte or whatever. 333 00:14:40,780 --> 00:14:44,360 Speaker 2: So there's just a lag between usage and then what we see reported in this 334 00:14:44,360 --> 00:14:46,460 Kevin: survey, I think. 335 00:14:47,100 --> 00:14:48,000 Kevin: Interesting, though. 336 00:14:49,740 --> 00:14:51,660 Kevin: What's the package name for Angular? 337 00:14:51,900 --> 00:14:52,820 Kevin: Is it AngularJS? 338 00:14:54,020 --> 00:14:54,140 Kevin: No. 339 00:14:55,780 --> 00:14:56,020 Kevin: Or is it 340 00:14:56,020 --> 00:14:57,640 Speaker 2: Angular or something like that? 341 00:14:57,960 --> 00:15:00,340 Speaker 2: Angular-slash-cli? 342 00:15:00,920 --> 00:15:02,960 Speaker 2: I should know this because I... 343 00:15:02,980 --> 00:15:03,740 Speaker 2: Cli tool for 344 00:15:03,740 --> 00:15:04,440 Kevin: Angular, yeah. 345 00:15:04,900 --> 00:15:11,380 Kevin: Because if you just put in Angular, it's way smaller than Svelte, and that doesn't sound right. 346 00:15:11,800 --> 00:15:12,660 Speaker 2: No, that doesn't make sense at all. 347 00:15:13,120 --> 00:15:13,720 Speaker 2: No, no, no. 348 00:15:14,240 --> 00:15:15,660 Speaker 2: We're just looking at the wrong packets, I'm sure. 349 00:15:16,140 --> 00:15:16,920 Kevin: Probably, yeah. 350 00:15:17,380 --> 00:15:18,020 Speaker 3: But yeah, so for 351 00:15:18,020 --> 00:15:18,580 comparison, 352 00:15:19,180 --> 00:15:20,800 Kevin: React has 70 million downloads. 353 00:15:21,080 --> 00:15:22,360 Kevin: Svelte has 2.6. 354 00:15:22,980 --> 00:15:25,820 Kevin: So there's a 35X difference there. 355 00:15:27,339 --> 00:15:27,860 Speaker 2: Satisfaction. 356 00:15:28,310 --> 00:15:32,140 Speaker 2: We have Svelte steady at number two, as it has been for 357 00:15:32,140 --> 00:15:34,540 Speaker 3: five years now. 358 00:15:35,090 --> 00:15:38,980 Speaker 2: With Solid just going straight into number one and still being, they're very, very close. 359 00:15:39,500 --> 00:15:44,020 Speaker 2: It's like Solid is 89% satisfaction and Svelte is 86%. 360 00:15:44,100 --> 00:15:44,440 Speaker 3: Yeah. 361 00:15:46,420 --> 00:15:49,420 Speaker 2: So Preact gain satisfaction this year. 362 00:15:49,710 --> 00:15:49,840 Speaker 2: So 363 00:15:49,840 --> 00:15:50,500 Speaker 3: that's pretty interesting. 364 00:15:51,120 --> 00:16:18,040 Speaker 2: Yeah. Lit as well. I think there's been a lot of years like people talk about web components, right? And it's been a thing for many years. And the usage has not been there compared to how much, how long it's been there, I guess. But I feel like this year and last year, like the chatter around web components and design systems and lit and fast, I think it just keeps growing now. 365 00:16:19,120 --> 00:16:25,240 Speaker 2: Maybe it's because I'm listening to too much Shop Talk show, but I think it's growing. 366 00:16:25,920 --> 00:16:26,340 Speaker 2: That's very interesting. 367 00:16:26,760 --> 00:16:26,980 Kevin: Yeah. 368 00:16:27,940 --> 00:16:28,960 Kevin: I don't know. 369 00:16:29,210 --> 00:16:35,800 Kevin: Like, I'm so not into, like, I keep hearing about web components, but I'm not really that interested in them. 370 00:16:37,200 --> 00:16:37,440 Kevin: No. 371 00:16:37,940 --> 00:16:39,180 Speaker 2: Maybe for obvious reasons, 372 00:16:39,500 --> 00:16:40,460 Speaker 3: but yeah, yeah, of course. 373 00:16:40,820 --> 00:16:41,180 Speaker 3: Of course. 374 00:16:41,940 --> 00:16:44,280 Kevin: But, like, I just never really use them a lot. 375 00:16:44,460 --> 00:16:52,540 Kevin: But, like, the amount of DevRel resources that have gone into pushing web components is pretty large, right? 376 00:16:53,090 --> 00:16:53,200 Kevin: True. 377 00:16:54,360 --> 00:16:58,460 Kevin: So it's because you get this from like the Chrome team and like everyone is 378 00:16:58,460 --> 00:16:59,440 Speaker 3: talking about web components 379 00:16:59,510 --> 00:17:00,660 Kevin: and have been for years. 380 00:17:01,290 --> 00:17:03,240 Kevin: So it's kind of interesting that it's not bigger. 381 00:17:03,840 --> 00:17:03,920 Kevin: That 382 00:17:03,920 --> 00:17:04,020 Speaker 2: is 383 00:17:04,020 --> 00:17:04,280 Speaker 3: true. 384 00:17:05,040 --> 00:17:09,660 Kevin: Maybe it's maybe the developer experience hasn't been up to snuff, right? 385 00:17:10,220 --> 00:17:16,060 Speaker 2: Yeah, I think it's really hard to put a pin on like why are some of these frameworks more popular than others? 386 00:17:16,850 --> 00:17:16,980 Speaker 3: Yeah. 387 00:17:17,459 --> 00:17:19,839 Speaker 2: Especially when you look at these charts, because if you look at this, 388 00:17:20,120 --> 00:17:20,660 Speaker 3: you 389 00:17:20,660 --> 00:17:22,120 Speaker 2: would expect solid to just be like 390 00:17:22,120 --> 00:17:23,640 Kevin: the thing that everyone uses. 391 00:17:24,730 --> 00:17:25,280 Kevin: But it isn't. 392 00:17:26,180 --> 00:17:31,000 Kevin: Could just be the solid users are more prone to answering the survey. 393 00:17:31,550 --> 00:17:31,680 Kevin: Oh, 394 00:17:31,800 --> 00:17:32,160 Speaker 2: yeah, for sure. 395 00:17:32,390 --> 00:17:32,500 Speaker 2: Right. 396 00:17:32,630 --> 00:17:33,760 Speaker 2: I think that's fair. 397 00:17:35,620 --> 00:17:39,200 Speaker 2: Preact is highest in appreciation and 398 00:17:39,200 --> 00:17:40,140 Kevin: Svelte is 399 00:17:40,140 --> 00:17:41,120 Speaker 2: lowest. 400 00:17:42,000 --> 00:17:42,440 Kevin: Interesting. 401 00:17:42,880 --> 00:17:43,460 Speaker 2: And it has been. 402 00:17:43,540 --> 00:17:44,060 Speaker 2: What does that mean? 403 00:17:44,220 --> 00:17:44,660 Speaker 2: Appreciation. 404 00:17:44,820 --> 00:17:46,800 Speaker 2: Gap between interest and satisfaction. 405 00:17:47,360 --> 00:17:51,600 Kevin: So the satisfaction must be loaded? Am I... Is that... 406 00:17:51,800 --> 00:17:52,540 Kevin: I don't know. 407 00:17:53,040 --> 00:17:53,680 Kevin: That seems weird. 408 00:17:53,780 --> 00:18:03,980 Speaker 2: I don't know how to read this. It just says it's the gap between interest and the satisfaction in percentage points. Anyways, someone else who is smarter than us, please 409 00:18:03,980 --> 00:18:08,640 Speaker 3: tell us how to read this. 410 00:18:10,240 --> 00:18:11,340 Speaker 2: This is Baby's first charts. 411 00:18:13,560 --> 00:18:14,520 Kevin: That sounds weird 412 00:18:14,520 --> 00:18:15,640 Speaker 2: though, that it would be lowest. 413 00:18:16,460 --> 00:18:16,680 Speaker 3: Because 414 00:18:16,680 --> 00:18:23,120 Speaker 2: then you go to positivity and then Svelte is highest, which is the proportion of positive sentiment among all respondents. 415 00:18:23,550 --> 00:18:26,560 Speaker 2: So I think there's just something that I just don't fully understand about people. 416 00:18:28,400 --> 00:18:30,880 Speaker 2: But, I mean, Svelte is still going strong. 417 00:18:34,120 --> 00:18:35,740 Speaker 2: And people love it. 418 00:18:36,120 --> 00:18:41,360 Speaker 2: People love it slightly less than they did last year, but it's within one percentage point. 419 00:18:42,120 --> 00:18:53,500 Kevin: I think that's a good, like when you look at it on all frameworks, because most of them are going down, as we mentioned, it's a good result compared relatively at least. 420 00:18:54,060 --> 00:18:54,200 Speaker 2: Right. 421 00:18:54,640 --> 00:19:04,380 Speaker 2: So then there's also, so that was Svelte, and then there's the meta frameworks, which is where Next.js and SvelteKit is and all the others essentially. 422 00:19:05,000 --> 00:19:07,140 Speaker 2: And there's one thing that's very interesting here. 423 00:19:07,780 --> 00:19:13,380 Speaker 2: So when you look at the usage of the meta frameworks, I'm just going to go back to the usage of... 424 00:19:13,380 --> 00:19:14,980 Speaker 2: Although that stacks out. 425 00:19:15,160 --> 00:19:17,840 Speaker 2: Essentially, Next.js is in a league of its own. 426 00:19:18,340 --> 00:19:18,760 Speaker 3: Next.js 427 00:19:18,760 --> 00:19:23,040 Speaker 2: has 59% usage, and the next one is Astro at 27. 428 00:19:23,320 --> 00:19:26,800 Speaker 2: Astro is growing really fast compared to all the others. 429 00:19:27,000 --> 00:19:27,240 Kevin: Yeah. 430 00:19:28,040 --> 00:19:33,000 Kevin: I think it's because you can use it with any framework, right? 431 00:19:33,100 --> 00:19:33,540 Kevin: You can mix and 432 00:19:33,540 --> 00:19:33,900 Speaker 2: match. 433 00:19:34,559 --> 00:19:35,080 Kevin: That's the 434 00:19:35,080 --> 00:19:36,060 Speaker 2: strength of it. 435 00:19:36,720 --> 00:19:38,320 Speaker 2: Which makes perfect sense, right? 436 00:19:41,059 --> 00:19:41,460 Speaker 2: Basically, 437 00:19:42,900 --> 00:19:47,920 Kevin: their user base is anyone that uses React Svelte view, 438 00:19:48,340 --> 00:19:48,440 Speaker 2: right? 439 00:19:48,660 --> 00:19:50,900 Kevin: And I'm sure there are other frameworks that you can use 440 00:19:50,900 --> 00:19:51,740 Speaker 2: with Astros right now. 441 00:19:51,740 --> 00:19:54,420 Speaker 2: Yeah, React and something more. 442 00:19:54,700 --> 00:19:54,820 Speaker 2: So 443 00:19:54,820 --> 00:19:55,840 Kevin: you would expect them to 444 00:19:55,840 --> 00:19:57,200 Speaker 2: be pretty big. 445 00:19:57,220 --> 00:19:57,320 Speaker 2: Of 446 00:19:57,320 --> 00:19:57,360 Kevin: course. 447 00:19:58,020 --> 00:19:58,080 Kevin: Yeah. 448 00:19:59,040 --> 00:19:59,300 Kevin: Meanwhile, 449 00:19:59,500 --> 00:19:59,940 Speaker 2: Next.js 450 00:19:59,940 --> 00:20:01,420 Kevin: only React works, right? 451 00:20:01,880 --> 00:20:02,660 Speaker 2: Yeah, that is true. 452 00:20:03,200 --> 00:20:09,780 Speaker 2: It's interesting that Next.js was on a downturn in 2024, and then it got an upticket again in 2025. 453 00:20:10,550 --> 00:20:10,700 Speaker 2: Yeah. 454 00:20:11,700 --> 00:20:12,680 Speaker 2: Somehow they turned that around. 455 00:20:13,940 --> 00:20:16,680 Kevin: I think if you go to satisfaction though, like you're gonna find 456 00:20:16,680 --> 00:20:16,980 Speaker 3: the-- - Yeah, 457 00:20:17,100 --> 00:20:17,800 Kevin: let's do a satisfaction. 458 00:20:18,760 --> 00:20:19,280 Kevin: Astro, 459 00:20:19,280 --> 00:20:20,060 Speaker 2: number one. 460 00:20:20,570 --> 00:20:21,060 Speaker 2: That's impressive. 461 00:20:21,600 --> 00:20:22,920 Speaker 2: SvelteKit, number two. 462 00:20:24,540 --> 00:20:25,660 Speaker 2: And then we have-- - Solid 463 00:20:25,660 --> 00:20:26,320 Speaker 3: start, I 464 00:20:26,320 --> 00:20:30,240 Speaker 2: think. - Solid start, Nuxt, analog, oh analog is, 465 00:20:30,940 --> 00:20:31,900 Kevin: that's Angular. 466 00:20:31,900 --> 00:20:32,360 Kevin: What is analog? 467 00:20:33,220 --> 00:20:34,240 Speaker 3: That analog is Angular, 468 00:20:34,470 --> 00:20:35,320 Speaker 2: but with Vite. 469 00:20:35,920 --> 00:20:36,080 Speaker 2: So is 470 00:20:36,080 --> 00:20:38,440 Kevin: this amazing, 471 00:20:38,680 --> 00:20:43,860 Speaker 2: brilliant guy, I believe he's called, I want to say Brandon, but maybe I'm wrong. 472 00:20:44,190 --> 00:20:47,340 Speaker 2: And he was like, I love Angular, but I hate the toolchain. 473 00:20:47,700 --> 00:20:48,920 Speaker 2: Can I just do a V plugin instead? 474 00:20:49,110 --> 00:20:50,160 Speaker 2: And so he just built a V plugin. 475 00:20:51,180 --> 00:20:59,900 Speaker 2: And now it's this whole thing with, if you want to do Angular, but you love V and V test and Storybook with V and all that, then analog is your jam. 476 00:20:59,900 --> 00:21:00,620 Speaker 2: And I think that's pretty 477 00:21:00,620 --> 00:21:01,120 Speaker 3: impressive. 478 00:21:01,960 --> 00:21:04,160 Speaker 2: Anyway, he got into it at number five. 479 00:21:04,380 --> 00:21:06,720 Speaker 2: Dino Fresh, Tonsaurus Remix. 480 00:21:08,130 --> 00:21:08,460 Speaker 2: And then 481 00:21:08,460 --> 00:21:10,920 Kevin: next just beats out Gatsby. 482 00:21:11,640 --> 00:21:13,700 Kevin: That's not a good thing. 483 00:21:15,920 --> 00:21:16,200 Kevin: Imagine 484 00:21:16,200 --> 00:21:16,780 Speaker 3: if they got banned 485 00:21:16,780 --> 00:21:17,840 Speaker 2: by Gatsby. 486 00:21:18,520 --> 00:21:18,760 Speaker 2: I mean, 487 00:21:19,330 --> 00:21:20,000 Kevin: it hasn't been in 488 00:21:20,000 --> 00:21:21,920 Speaker 2: development for years as far as I know. 489 00:21:22,170 --> 00:21:22,380 Speaker 2: I might 490 00:21:22,380 --> 00:21:22,760 Speaker 3: be wrong, 491 00:21:22,950 --> 00:21:23,480 Speaker 2: but I don't think it's. 492 00:21:23,500 --> 00:21:23,980 Speaker 2: No, no, you're right. 493 00:21:24,120 --> 00:21:24,640 Kevin: I think you're right. 494 00:21:24,790 --> 00:21:25,280 Kevin: I think you're right. 495 00:21:26,640 --> 00:21:26,920 Kevin: No, that's 496 00:21:26,920 --> 00:21:27,160 Speaker 2: cool. 497 00:21:28,260 --> 00:21:29,200 Kevin: It's interesting though. 498 00:21:29,560 --> 00:21:33,940 Kevin: Gatsby did do things a bit differently compared to other frameworks. 499 00:21:34,560 --> 00:21:37,960 Kevin: I think the whole GraphQL thing was 500 00:21:37,960 --> 00:21:39,260 Speaker 2: very different 501 00:21:39,260 --> 00:21:40,120 Kevin: compared to... 502 00:21:40,300 --> 00:21:47,000 Speaker 2: I feel like Astro has sort of picked up the good parts of what Gatsby did differently. 503 00:21:47,840 --> 00:21:54,180 Speaker 2: I don't think GraphQL was the right choice because it was just very complicated for even the basic stuff. 504 00:21:54,660 --> 00:22:06,920 Speaker 2: So I think Astro has hit the right balance of you having flexible data sources and also it just being simple to write. 505 00:22:07,680 --> 00:22:10,060 Speaker 2: I've heard that some people run into performance issues. 506 00:22:10,200 --> 00:22:14,040 Speaker 2: If they have a lot of content, then it just takes hours to build. 507 00:22:14,880 --> 00:22:16,900 Speaker 2: But maybe that's just... 508 00:22:17,000 --> 00:22:20,660 Kevin: Do you know if Astro is still build-only? 509 00:22:21,280 --> 00:22:21,600 Kevin: What's it called? 510 00:22:22,300 --> 00:22:23,180 Kevin: Server-side? 511 00:22:23,200 --> 00:22:27,800 Kevin: Server-side only? Or like pre-render only, I guess is what I'm saying. 512 00:22:28,490 --> 00:22:32,500 Kevin: Or is it dynamic? Can you do dynamic server and server-side dense points? 513 00:22:32,980 --> 00:22:36,180 Speaker 2: No. So Astro components can only be rendered on the server. 514 00:22:36,650 --> 00:22:40,640 Speaker 2: And so if you need something on the client, then you will reach for one of the other frameworks. 515 00:22:41,120 --> 00:22:43,080 Speaker 2: Yep. Yep. Gotcha. 516 00:22:43,390 --> 00:22:48,460 Speaker 2: And the reason I know that, so I'm going to take on my Storybook hat now. 517 00:22:48,690 --> 00:22:51,900 Speaker 2: Because I'm a Storybook core maintainer. 518 00:22:52,480 --> 00:23:04,360 Speaker 2: And by far the biggest request we have for Storybook, and it's been the biggest request for years has been Astro support, which I get because Astro is pretty good. 519 00:23:04,720 --> 00:23:09,880 Speaker 2: The problem is that Astro is server side rendered only and Storybook being 520 00:23:09,880 --> 00:23:11,800 Speaker 3: seven years old 521 00:23:11,800 --> 00:23:13,000 Speaker 2: is an SPA. 522 00:23:13,180 --> 00:23:14,920 Speaker 2: Storybook renders on the client only. 523 00:23:15,190 --> 00:23:16,220 Speaker 2: And so how do you do that? 524 00:23:16,520 --> 00:23:17,420 Speaker 2: Well, you 525 00:23:17,420 --> 00:23:17,640 Speaker 3: don't. 526 00:23:17,760 --> 00:23:18,560 Speaker 3: iFrames, obviously. 527 00:23:20,660 --> 00:23:29,220 Speaker 2: It requires either the Astro team or the Storybook team figuring out how to completely redo their architecture. 528 00:23:30,960 --> 00:23:34,960 Speaker 2: So that's still a sore eye for me. 529 00:23:35,340 --> 00:23:37,760 Speaker 2: Anyways, back to the Svelte podcast. 530 00:23:41,140 --> 00:23:41,800 Kevin: Yeah, how's the interest? 531 00:23:42,940 --> 00:23:44,400 Kevin: I'm sorry, you were going to say something about Svelte. 532 00:23:44,400 --> 00:23:45,140 Kevin: No, Svelte 533 00:23:45,140 --> 00:23:47,140 Speaker 2: just keeps being high on satisfaction, of course, 534 00:23:47,820 --> 00:23:47,940 Kevin: which 535 00:23:47,940 --> 00:23:48,340 is amazing. 536 00:23:50,700 --> 00:23:55,860 Speaker 2: the Svelte team is just doing amazing work, as we talked about last time, with the new remote functions. 537 00:23:56,040 --> 00:24:00,600 Speaker 2: And it's going to be really interesting to see how Svelte Kit 3 just... 538 00:24:01,660 --> 00:24:02,900 Kevin: I think it's going to be amazing. 539 00:24:03,580 --> 00:24:03,800 Kevin: Yeah. 540 00:24:04,440 --> 00:24:05,520 Kevin: Remote functions are... 541 00:24:05,580 --> 00:24:05,660 Kevin: I 542 00:24:05,660 --> 00:24:06,560 Speaker 2: also really think that. 543 00:24:07,080 --> 00:24:07,700 Kevin: Yeah, yeah, yeah. 544 00:24:07,960 --> 00:24:09,900 Kevin: We have to think it, but I really think it. 545 00:24:10,140 --> 00:24:10,580 Kevin: Yeah, yeah. 546 00:24:11,840 --> 00:24:12,080 Kevin: Definitely. 547 00:24:12,400 --> 00:24:16,440 Kevin: Remote functions is such a game changer in terms of developer experience. 548 00:24:17,760 --> 00:24:21,280 Kevin: Compared to the load functions on the form actions that we had before. 549 00:24:22,159 --> 00:24:23,240 Kevin: Ah, amazing. - Yeah, yeah. 550 00:24:24,000 --> 00:24:25,220 Speaker 2: I want to correct myself. 551 00:24:25,340 --> 00:24:26,220 Speaker 2: We don't have to think anything. 552 00:24:26,400 --> 00:24:27,440 Speaker 2: We're not getting paid by anyone. 553 00:24:27,960 --> 00:24:28,740 Speaker 2: We can think what we 554 00:24:28,740 --> 00:24:29,020 Kevin: want. 555 00:24:29,720 --> 00:24:30,460 Speaker 2: Just so no one- 556 00:24:30,460 --> 00:24:31,020 Kevin: Wait, you're getting 557 00:24:31,020 --> 00:24:31,340 Speaker 3: paid? 558 00:24:31,760 --> 00:24:33,400 Speaker 2: No, that's 559 00:24:33,400 --> 00:24:34,400 Kevin: a meme, right? 560 00:24:37,480 --> 00:24:38,160 Speaker 2: You are really old. 561 00:24:39,240 --> 00:24:42,220 Speaker 2: Interest is going down for SvelteKit, as it has been for years. 562 00:24:42,760 --> 00:24:46,520 Speaker 2: I, as we've talked about, I think that's just the function of it not being as new anymore. 563 00:24:47,260 --> 00:24:47,460 Kevin: Yeah. 564 00:24:48,340 --> 00:24:48,360 Kevin: And 565 00:24:48,360 --> 00:24:48,920 Speaker 3: to be fair, 566 00:24:49,020 --> 00:24:50,480 Kevin: all of them are going down, right? 567 00:24:50,970 --> 00:24:52,900 Speaker 2: Yeah, except for Astro is floating. 568 00:24:54,040 --> 00:24:55,720 Speaker 2: Right, if you look two years back, yeah. 569 00:24:56,580 --> 00:24:58,100 Speaker 2: Other than that, everyone else is going down. 570 00:24:58,620 --> 00:25:02,000 Kevin: Yeah, not a bright future for meta frameworks, it seems like. 571 00:25:02,540 --> 00:25:02,900 Kevin: Nah. 572 00:25:03,620 --> 00:25:03,960 Kevin: I'm kidding. 573 00:25:04,230 --> 00:25:10,900 Speaker 2: I mean, someone, I like, the alternative here is someone building, like, you're using your own meta framework, right? 574 00:25:11,010 --> 00:25:18,180 Speaker 2: You have to have some sort of meta framework, whether or not it's something that is being maintained, or is it something that you build on your own, right? 575 00:25:19,260 --> 00:25:21,760 Speaker 2: so or you just go pure 576 00:25:21,760 --> 00:25:24,200 Kevin: server side oh yeah for sure no client 577 00:25:24,700 --> 00:25:28,800 Speaker 2: no client like no even like we don't even send anything to the client 578 00:25:29,080 --> 00:25:29,660 Kevin: anything happens 579 00:25:29,740 --> 00:25:34,160 Speaker 2: on the server and like when when they open the website there's just blank there's nothing 580 00:25:34,300 --> 00:25:50,900 Kevin: on the client yeah just an input text where you put in your prompt and you get what you want out of the prompt imagine like the kilobytes you would save from that right imagine the tokens you would spend though from generating all that Sorry, I'm not going to go into an LLM rant. 581 00:25:51,020 --> 00:25:51,580 Kevin: Can we do another 582 00:25:51,580 --> 00:25:52,720 Speaker 2: LLM only episode? 583 00:25:55,100 --> 00:25:55,760 Kevin: No, we can't. 584 00:25:55,780 --> 00:25:56,820 Kevin: No, we can't. 585 00:25:56,940 --> 00:25:57,320 Kevin: We can't. 586 00:25:57,440 --> 00:25:58,300 Kevin: We have to stick 587 00:25:58,300 --> 00:25:58,780 Speaker 2: to Svelte. 588 00:25:59,100 --> 00:25:59,560 Speaker 2: Oh, we do. 589 00:25:59,880 --> 00:26:04,680 Speaker 2: So, like there's 10 different ways to view all of this data. 590 00:26:05,320 --> 00:26:07,760 Speaker 2: And we're not going to go all the same data again. 591 00:26:08,400 --> 00:26:16,020 Speaker 2: But there's this huge chart that they call changes over time, where we can see everything at once. 592 00:26:16,440 --> 00:26:21,240 Speaker 2: And let me find Svelte in this big mess. 593 00:26:21,390 --> 00:26:21,920 Speaker 2: I found it. 594 00:26:22,899 --> 00:26:25,560 Speaker 2: So it's being used more and more. 595 00:26:26,120 --> 00:26:29,540 Speaker 2: And compared to last time, slightly more negative opinion. 596 00:26:29,960 --> 00:26:31,900 Speaker 2: But not that much. 597 00:26:33,600 --> 00:26:34,740 Speaker 2: I think that's one thing. 598 00:26:35,340 --> 00:26:52,200 Speaker 2: If you as a listener go in and look at these charts over time, it's important to remember that last year they made a change in the survey, which if you were one of these library maintainers, it hurt you a lot. 599 00:26:52,500 --> 00:27:05,160 Speaker 2: But the way that you would answer these surveys, they now added some sort of like, instead of just answering I have used it or I have not used it, you would now also be forced to put in your sentiment and that made everything just more negative. 600 00:27:05,960 --> 00:27:06,440 Kevin: That's interesting. 601 00:27:07,200 --> 00:27:09,460 Kevin: Even when you put, I haven't used it? 602 00:27:10,480 --> 00:27:12,520 Kevin: Yes, because then it asks, 603 00:27:12,960 --> 00:27:14,960 Speaker 2: I would like to, or I would not like 604 00:27:14,960 --> 00:27:15,400 Kevin: to use it. 605 00:27:15,400 --> 00:27:15,920 Kevin: Oh, I see, I see. 606 00:27:16,110 --> 00:27:17,240 Kevin: Okay, that makes sense. 607 00:27:18,920 --> 00:27:26,760 Speaker 2: So there's just something to keep in mind when you read this, that between 2023 and 2024, the survey basically changed a bit. 608 00:27:26,850 --> 00:27:29,020 Speaker 2: So that is why the data is a bit off. 609 00:27:30,160 --> 00:27:30,520 Speaker 2: Yeah, 610 00:27:31,080 --> 00:27:36,300 Kevin: they should probably just get rid of the old data if that changes things that much. 611 00:27:37,120 --> 00:27:38,860 Speaker 2: Yeah, I mean, now it is 612 00:27:38,860 --> 00:27:39,060 Kevin: changed. 613 00:27:39,060 --> 00:27:39,460 Kevin: We'll have a toggle. 614 00:27:39,860 --> 00:27:40,220 Kevin: Yeah, 615 00:27:40,870 --> 00:27:41,220 Speaker 2: I don't know. 616 00:27:41,900 --> 00:27:43,440 Speaker 2: Maybe there's just something going forward. 617 00:27:44,000 --> 00:27:45,020 Speaker 2: That's just how it is from now on. 618 00:27:46,480 --> 00:27:48,060 Speaker 2: Anyways, what else is interesting here? 619 00:27:48,520 --> 00:27:50,020 Speaker 2: There's a tier list now. 620 00:27:53,380 --> 00:27:53,920 Speaker 2: Seems like a 621 00:27:53,920 --> 00:27:54,480 Kevin: popular tier. 622 00:27:54,520 --> 00:27:55,060 Kevin: VTest is S 623 00:27:55,060 --> 00:27:55,220 Speaker 2: tier. 624 00:27:56,560 --> 00:27:57,440 Speaker 2: What? Really? 625 00:27:58,180 --> 00:27:59,120 Speaker 2: Hono. Wow. 626 00:27:59,300 --> 00:28:03,720 Speaker 2: I actually didn't know that that many people were using both Hono and Playwright as an S tier. 627 00:28:04,500 --> 00:28:05,520 Speaker 2: Isn't-- Yeah. 628 00:28:06,820 --> 00:28:07,300 Speaker 2: Is 629 00:28:07,300 --> 00:28:08,480 Kevin: Hono-- It's 630 00:28:08,480 --> 00:28:09,560 Speaker 3: like the- 631 00:28:09,560 --> 00:28:10,820 Speaker 2: Is that the thing that powers something else? 632 00:28:11,280 --> 00:28:12,740 Speaker 2: Or is that Nitro that I'm thinking of? 633 00:28:14,020 --> 00:28:15,760 Kevin: I don't think Hano powers something. 634 00:28:15,780 --> 00:28:24,040 Kevin: Well, I mean, probably powers something, but it's like an Express competitor, if you 635 00:28:24,040 --> 00:28:24,300 Speaker 3: will. 636 00:28:26,580 --> 00:28:27,320 Speaker 2: And then we have Bun. 637 00:28:27,700 --> 00:28:30,160 Speaker 2: It's going to be interesting to see what happens to Bun, now that Anthropic 638 00:28:30,160 --> 00:28:31,160 Speaker 3: acquired 639 00:28:31,160 --> 00:28:31,480 Speaker 2: Bun. 640 00:28:32,840 --> 00:28:34,100 Speaker 2: I mean, they're still working on it, of course. 641 00:28:35,480 --> 00:28:35,620 Speaker 2: Yeah. 642 00:28:38,060 --> 00:28:38,700 Kevin: So only 643 00:28:38,700 --> 00:28:40,120 Speaker 2: Astro is on S tier. 644 00:28:40,540 --> 00:28:40,760 Speaker 2: True. 645 00:28:41,240 --> 00:28:41,340 Speaker 2: for 646 00:28:41,340 --> 00:28:42,660 Kevin: frameworks. For the frameworks, 647 00:28:42,910 --> 00:28:43,020 Speaker 2: yeah. 648 00:28:43,540 --> 00:28:46,840 Speaker 2: SvelteKit is 8-tier as the next framework in line. 649 00:28:48,140 --> 00:28:49,140 Kevin: And then Nuxt is 650 00:28:49,140 --> 00:28:49,480 Speaker 2: also 8-tier. 651 00:28:50,300 --> 00:28:51,060 Speaker 2: Nuxt is also brilliant. 652 00:28:52,320 --> 00:28:53,500 Speaker 2: I haven't actually used Nuxt. 653 00:28:54,280 --> 00:28:54,380 Kevin: No. 654 00:28:54,700 --> 00:29:08,820 Speaker 2: I've heard, I've talked with people that use it, and they say it's amazing, and I have seen what it can do, but I also, I dived into a Nuxt code base yesterday, and I did not know where to step. 655 00:29:11,220 --> 00:29:15,560 Speaker 2: there was an interesting pattern, which I didn't like. 656 00:29:15,960 --> 00:29:18,480 Speaker 2: But then I also realized that Svelte has sort of a similar pattern. 657 00:29:18,660 --> 00:29:21,420 Speaker 2: There was something about implicit imports. 658 00:29:22,040 --> 00:29:24,440 Speaker 2: Because I was looking at this Noct code base, right? 659 00:29:24,440 --> 00:29:27,880 Speaker 2: And there was this function that was called, it was a hook in a page. 660 00:29:27,960 --> 00:29:30,620 Speaker 2: It was called usePackageW or whatever. 661 00:29:30,960 --> 00:29:31,360 Speaker 3: Oh, right. 662 00:29:31,600 --> 00:29:33,120 Speaker 2: You can do anything in Vue, right? 663 00:29:33,400 --> 00:29:34,060 Speaker 2: I guess. 664 00:29:35,620 --> 00:29:40,660 Speaker 2: And so because it was just using GitHub, GitHub has this, like, go to sources or whatever. 665 00:29:40,950 --> 00:29:42,540 Speaker 2: And so I clicked on that and it didn't show anything. 666 00:29:42,610 --> 00:29:45,700 Speaker 2: And the use package function wasn't even being imported in there. 667 00:29:45,700 --> 00:29:46,600 Speaker 2: I was like, okay, what? 668 00:29:46,660 --> 00:29:47,640 Speaker 3: What is this? 669 00:29:47,680 --> 00:29:47,980 Speaker 3: Oh, yeah. 670 00:29:48,600 --> 00:30:01,240 Speaker 2: And so I had to ask around and I realized it's when it's being defined in some other module called compose something something, then it's just available everywhere, which is nice, but it's also sort of confusing for me to 671 00:30:01,240 --> 00:30:02,420 Kevin: understand. 672 00:30:02,820 --> 00:30:05,140 Speaker 2: But then I realized, well, Svelte runes is the exact same thing. 673 00:30:05,610 --> 00:30:06,520 Speaker 2: You don't import a rune. 674 00:30:07,840 --> 00:30:14,840 Kevin: Yeah, I mean, it's kind of similar, but then it's like a core mechanic of the framework that you have to learn. 675 00:30:15,060 --> 00:30:19,660 Speaker 2: Yeah, that's the difference, right? Because usePackage was like a custom thing. 676 00:30:20,900 --> 00:30:21,300 Kevin: But 677 00:30:21,300 --> 00:30:22,480 Speaker 2: it is similar, for sure. 678 00:30:23,960 --> 00:30:24,860 Kevin: But to be fair, I 679 00:30:24,860 --> 00:30:33,520 Speaker 2: would also expect, like, if I opened the repository in VS Code and I clicked usePackage, that the Vue or Noxt extension, it would know exactly where to get me. 680 00:30:33,980 --> 00:30:34,080 Speaker 3: Right. 681 00:30:34,580 --> 00:30:35,240 Speaker 3: I'm sure it was just 682 00:30:35,240 --> 00:30:36,420 Speaker 2: because I was in GitHub. 683 00:30:37,260 --> 00:30:37,320 Speaker 3: Yeah. 684 00:30:37,780 --> 00:30:41,880 Speaker 2: So, but it was just, I'm not a fan of magic stuff. 685 00:30:42,020 --> 00:30:43,320 Speaker 2: I like magical stuff. 686 00:30:44,260 --> 00:30:44,340 Speaker 3: Yeah. 687 00:30:44,880 --> 00:30:45,000 Speaker 2: Yeah. 688 00:30:46,220 --> 00:30:49,260 Speaker 2: But anyways, everything to each their own, I guess. 689 00:30:49,840 --> 00:30:49,940 Kevin: Yeah. 690 00:30:50,040 --> 00:30:53,140 Kevin: It's good that there are like all these different options. 691 00:30:53,820 --> 00:30:54,280 Speaker 2: Yeah, for sure. 692 00:30:54,860 --> 00:30:55,020 Speaker 2: Use. 693 00:30:56,300 --> 00:30:58,140 Kevin: I should definitely try it at some point though. 694 00:30:58,620 --> 00:30:58,760 Speaker 2: Yeah. 695 00:30:59,400 --> 00:31:01,800 Speaker 2: Just at least to learn it. 696 00:31:02,260 --> 00:31:02,400 Kevin: Yeah. 697 00:31:03,200 --> 00:31:03,540 Kevin: All right. 698 00:31:04,240 --> 00:31:09,280 Kevin: Are there other frameworks that are not on the lists that are popular? 699 00:31:09,580 --> 00:31:13,380 Kevin: I feel like I've been hearing TanStack start a lot, but I'm not saying... 700 00:31:13,380 --> 00:31:14,260 Kevin: TanStack start is 701 00:31:14,260 --> 00:31:19,180 Speaker 2: actually getting a lot of usage, but it's not... 702 00:31:19,180 --> 00:31:22,060 Speaker 2: So it was relatively new when this survey came out. 703 00:31:22,560 --> 00:31:22,700 Speaker 2: Gotcha. 704 00:31:22,880 --> 00:31:26,000 Speaker 2: So it's not part of the questionnaire. 705 00:31:26,480 --> 00:31:27,740 Speaker 2: It's one of those write-ins. 706 00:31:28,960 --> 00:31:30,920 Speaker 2: I found meta frameworks. 707 00:31:31,020 --> 00:31:35,580 Speaker 2: And then if you go to other, 10 stack start is by far the biggest other. 708 00:31:36,520 --> 00:31:36,660 Speaker 3: Yeah. 709 00:31:37,240 --> 00:31:38,980 Speaker 3: So it's definitely one of those things that 710 00:31:38,980 --> 00:31:45,560 Speaker 2: 10 stack router is, I'm assuming that if you don't use the metaframe, you just use the, well, maybe it's the same. 711 00:31:46,040 --> 00:31:46,600 Speaker 2: Maybe it's just people 712 00:31:46,600 --> 00:31:47,200 Speaker 3: being confused 713 00:31:47,200 --> 00:31:48,820 Speaker 2: about what to write. 714 00:31:49,320 --> 00:31:50,340 Kevin: Again, I'm 715 00:31:50,340 --> 00:31:52,540 Speaker 2: exposing my ignorance here. 716 00:31:53,040 --> 00:31:53,480 Kevin: Yeah, same. 717 00:31:53,640 --> 00:31:54,320 Kevin: I don't know. 718 00:31:54,700 --> 00:31:56,980 Kevin: I've not used 10 stack start. 719 00:31:57,500 --> 00:32:01,220 Kevin: I assume it's like a bit like Astro in that you can use any framework. 720 00:32:01,610 --> 00:32:02,100 Kevin: Is that right? 721 00:32:02,480 --> 00:32:02,980 Kevin: No, no, 722 00:32:02,990 --> 00:32:03,240 Speaker 2: no, no. 723 00:32:03,950 --> 00:32:05,160 Speaker 2: No, 10 stack start is React. 724 00:32:05,720 --> 00:32:06,000 Kevin: Is it? 725 00:32:06,340 --> 00:32:07,840 Kevin: Is it 10 stack router that you can use? 726 00:32:08,420 --> 00:32:10,460 Kevin: And 10 stack router is for React and solid. 727 00:32:11,020 --> 00:32:11,100 Kevin: Right. 728 00:32:11,170 --> 00:32:11,460 Kevin: So you can 729 00:32:11,460 --> 00:32:12,200 Speaker 2: use it for 730 00:32:12,200 --> 00:32:12,820 Kevin: those. 731 00:32:12,930 --> 00:32:13,220 Kevin: Maybe 10 732 00:32:13,220 --> 00:32:15,240 Speaker 2: stack start as well is, but it's not like this. 733 00:32:15,350 --> 00:32:19,540 Speaker 2: I don't believe it's something similar to Astro where you can do multiple stuff at once. 734 00:32:20,140 --> 00:32:20,280 Kevin: Yeah. 735 00:32:21,740 --> 00:32:23,860 Kevin: Yeah, I'm, I don't know. 736 00:32:24,440 --> 00:32:31,420 Speaker 2: But I think, anyway, it's great to have an alternative to Next.js coming from Tanstack. 737 00:32:32,220 --> 00:32:34,720 Speaker 2: And I'm really looking forward to see what they do this year. 738 00:32:36,220 --> 00:32:38,200 Speaker 2: Their growth is pretty wild already. 739 00:32:38,720 --> 00:32:48,960 Kevin: Yeah, Tanstack feels like they, from the outside looking in, it feels like they pull you in with all these libraries that you need for complex things, 740 00:32:49,240 --> 00:32:50,200 Speaker 3: like Tanstack Table, 741 00:32:50,500 --> 00:32:51,120 Kevin: Tanstack, 742 00:32:51,260 --> 00:32:52,700 Speaker 3: now I can name 743 00:32:52,700 --> 00:32:52,980 Kevin: them all. 744 00:32:53,500 --> 00:32:56,640 Kevin: But then you kind of get into the ecosystem, and 745 00:32:56,640 --> 00:32:58,060 Speaker 3: then 746 00:32:58,060 --> 00:33:07,560 Kevin: they maybe released TanStack Router and TanStack Start, which is like, oh, you can just slot in these other packages of ours, and they'll just work perfectly with it. 747 00:33:07,960 --> 00:33:18,320 Speaker 2: I think they made a very big splash when Tanner, he wrote that you could do route configuration, but type save. 748 00:33:18,820 --> 00:33:21,720 Speaker 2: So it would yell at you if you didn't get the params right. 749 00:33:23,520 --> 00:33:25,200 Speaker 2: subpath and whatever. I think that was pretty impressive. 750 00:33:25,430 --> 00:33:31,140 Speaker 2: I haven't seen that in many other places, especially not in Next.js and also not in SvelteKit, I believe. 751 00:33:31,680 --> 00:33:31,840 Speaker 2: Maybe 752 00:33:31,840 --> 00:33:34,340 Kevin: I'm wrong. No, there is type-safe routing 753 00:33:34,340 --> 00:33:35,200 Speaker 2: in 754 00:33:35,200 --> 00:33:35,540 Kevin: SvelteKit. 755 00:33:36,220 --> 00:33:36,400 Speaker 2: You 756 00:33:36,400 --> 00:33:38,180 Kevin: have to import a function now called Resolve. 757 00:33:39,080 --> 00:33:39,540 Kevin: Oh, right. 758 00:33:41,200 --> 00:33:43,820 Kevin: You have to do some work, but it works. 759 00:33:44,690 --> 00:33:48,940 Speaker 2: Okay, other tools. I don't have anything else to say about Svelte and frameworks. 760 00:33:49,130 --> 00:33:54,840 Speaker 2: I think we have I've talked more than enough about that, unless you have anything smart to say. 761 00:33:55,340 --> 00:33:56,440 Kevin: No, no. 762 00:33:57,120 --> 00:34:06,000 Speaker 2: Salt is the most used library in these, like it's just a long list of any JavaScript library. 763 00:34:07,400 --> 00:34:09,399 Kevin: Oh wow, it's even bigger than Lodash. 764 00:34:09,760 --> 00:34:10,560 Speaker 2: Yeah, it grew. 765 00:34:10,889 --> 00:34:16,080 Speaker 2: Two places this year to go over Lodash and date functions. 766 00:34:17,540 --> 00:34:18,080 Speaker 2: That's pretty wild. 767 00:34:18,600 --> 00:34:20,800 Speaker 2: So when I see this, I think this is great. 768 00:34:21,139 --> 00:34:21,800 Speaker 2: SART is great. 769 00:34:22,330 --> 00:34:24,780 Speaker 2: But also, people are sleeping on Valley Bot. 770 00:34:25,200 --> 00:34:26,179 Speaker 3: Valley Bot is 771 00:34:26,179 --> 00:34:27,840 Speaker 2: also very amazing. 772 00:34:28,520 --> 00:34:34,159 Speaker 2: Paolo introduced me to Valley Bot via his TMCP library. 773 00:34:34,940 --> 00:34:35,000 Speaker 2: And 774 00:34:35,000 --> 00:34:36,020 Kevin: to 775 00:34:36,020 --> 00:34:37,139 Speaker 2: me, it's almost the same. 776 00:34:37,360 --> 00:34:39,899 Speaker 2: The API is slightly different, except that it's tiny. 777 00:34:40,159 --> 00:34:41,260 Speaker 2: It's a tiny thing. 778 00:34:41,379 --> 00:34:41,940 Speaker 2: It's tree shakable. 779 00:34:42,460 --> 00:34:44,560 Speaker 2: I really love shaving off kilobytes. 780 00:34:44,940 --> 00:34:49,600 Speaker 2: And so I don't see why anyone would pick SOT over Valibot today. 781 00:34:49,960 --> 00:34:55,879 Speaker 2: Okay, that's a bit of an overstatement, but Valibot just seems like the same thing, but smaller. 782 00:34:56,440 --> 00:34:56,520 Speaker 2: So 783 00:34:56,520 --> 00:34:58,480 Kevin: that's what I will always go for. 784 00:34:58,660 --> 00:35:03,160 Kevin: There's some differences in the API, but they're not big, right? 785 00:35:03,920 --> 00:35:04,699 Speaker 3: And they both... 786 00:35:05,620 --> 00:35:06,120 Kevin: Sorry, go ahead. 787 00:35:06,640 --> 00:35:07,380 Speaker 2: No, no, no, go ahead. 788 00:35:07,880 --> 00:35:08,500 Speaker 2: I was just going 789 00:35:08,500 --> 00:35:12,620 Kevin: to say they both support standard schema, right? 790 00:35:13,040 --> 00:35:13,200 Kevin: That's 791 00:35:13,200 --> 00:35:14,400 Speaker 2: the biggest thing. 792 00:35:14,720 --> 00:35:24,180 Speaker 2: Can we talk about how amazing it is that all of these validation libraries, they've just put their heads together like, oh, maybe we should do something that we're all compatible with and maybe that's called Standard Schema. 793 00:35:24,630 --> 00:35:24,740 Speaker 2: I 794 00:35:24,740 --> 00:35:25,180 Kevin: love that. 795 00:35:25,320 --> 00:35:26,580 Kevin: I love that. 796 00:35:26,900 --> 00:35:33,340 Kevin: Am I misremembering it or is the creator of Standard Schema also the guy that created Valibot? 797 00:35:33,880 --> 00:35:34,700 Speaker 2: They were multiple. 798 00:35:35,670 --> 00:35:36,420 Kevin: Multiple people, okay. 799 00:35:37,560 --> 00:35:42,160 Speaker 2: So I think they literally got together to work on it. 800 00:35:43,240 --> 00:35:46,820 Speaker 2: the sort, Colin Hacks, and then ValidButton and then someone else. 801 00:35:47,500 --> 00:35:49,060 Speaker 2: Yeah, that makes sense. 802 00:35:49,360 --> 00:35:54,880 Speaker 2: So, yeah, I'm going to do a lot more of that at my work very soon. 803 00:35:55,100 --> 00:35:55,220 Speaker 2: So, 804 00:35:55,670 --> 00:35:56,460 Kevin: yeah, it's going to be fun. 805 00:35:56,470 --> 00:36:00,500 Kevin: Yeah, I mean, I use validation for everything, right? 806 00:36:01,000 --> 00:36:01,080 Kevin: Right. 807 00:36:01,180 --> 00:36:01,440 Kevin: It's great. 808 00:36:01,970 --> 00:36:06,980 Kevin: And now with remote functions, you use validation library. 809 00:36:07,700 --> 00:36:09,640 Kevin: Like, you have to use a validation library. 810 00:36:10,320 --> 00:36:11,960 Speaker 2: So, it's great. 811 00:36:12,280 --> 00:36:15,600 Speaker 2: OK, next on the list of libraries people use is Lodash. 812 00:36:16,240 --> 00:36:26,680 Speaker 2: And my feelings are that Lodash has not changed in 10 years or something. 813 00:36:27,280 --> 00:36:28,800 Kevin: Maybe that's its strength, though. 814 00:36:29,140 --> 00:36:31,260 Speaker 2: That's very impressive that 815 00:36:31,260 --> 00:36:31,680 Speaker 3: it has 816 00:36:31,680 --> 00:36:32,960 Speaker 2: kept being relevant. 817 00:36:34,060 --> 00:36:37,540 Speaker 2: But also, we have ES Toolkit readily available. 818 00:36:38,220 --> 00:36:40,120 Speaker 2: It's on place 17 here. 819 00:36:40,460 --> 00:36:43,360 Speaker 2: But it's just like, I feel like it's a modern take on Lodash. 820 00:36:43,520 --> 00:36:44,800 Speaker 2: It's ESM only. 821 00:36:45,720 --> 00:36:48,540 Kevin: Did that come from the E18? 822 00:36:49,400 --> 00:36:49,560 Speaker 2: No. 823 00:36:50,040 --> 00:36:51,640 Speaker 2: No, it's before that, actually. 824 00:36:52,740 --> 00:36:53,560 Speaker 2: There's also Randa. 825 00:36:54,060 --> 00:36:58,600 Speaker 2: There's a bunch of these Lodash alternatives that I think are better today. 826 00:36:59,220 --> 00:37:02,580 Speaker 2: But, I mean, I get your muscle memory is Lodash. 827 00:37:03,620 --> 00:37:07,620 Speaker 2: You have these functions all over the place, so just keep using it. 828 00:37:07,960 --> 00:37:08,140 Speaker 2: Fair. 829 00:37:08,820 --> 00:37:09,520 Speaker 2: And then also, 830 00:37:09,800 --> 00:37:16,720 Kevin: to be fair to Lodash, it's probably used way more often than Zod. 831 00:37:17,260 --> 00:37:18,740 Kevin: Like if you look at the actual download numbers. 832 00:37:19,330 --> 00:37:19,740 Kevin: Oh, yeah. 833 00:37:20,080 --> 00:37:21,500 Speaker 3: It's uncomparable. 834 00:37:21,650 --> 00:37:22,200 Speaker 3: Oh, yeah, for sure. 835 00:37:22,260 --> 00:37:22,400 Speaker 3: Yeah. 836 00:37:23,540 --> 00:37:24,080 Speaker 2: Same with a 837 00:37:24,080 --> 00:37:26,340 Kevin: lot of other of these libraries like date functions, 838 00:37:26,600 --> 00:37:26,920 Speaker 2: moments, 839 00:37:27,800 --> 00:37:29,100 Kevin: RxJS, etc. 840 00:37:29,820 --> 00:37:37,320 Speaker 2: So one thing that's interesting here is that number three, four, and five on the list is all about dates and times. 841 00:37:37,580 --> 00:37:37,720 Speaker 2: Yeah. 842 00:37:38,460 --> 00:37:43,000 Speaker 2: And it's going to be interesting to see if this changes now that we are very close to having temporal 843 00:37:44,380 --> 00:37:44,820 Speaker 3: directly 844 00:37:44,820 --> 00:37:49,100 Speaker 2: in JavaScript, which is, I guess, was supposed to be the replacement for all of these. 845 00:37:50,580 --> 00:37:52,920 Kevin: I think you can use it already in Chrome, right? 846 00:37:54,040 --> 00:37:54,900 Speaker 2: And also Firefox. 847 00:37:55,830 --> 00:37:57,880 Speaker 2: I think maybe Safari. 848 00:37:57,880 --> 00:37:58,480 Speaker 2: Yeah, you're right. 849 00:37:59,980 --> 00:38:04,580 Kevin: It's under a flag in Safari technical preview, so it's going to be out. 850 00:38:04,860 --> 00:38:05,200 Speaker 2: Yeah, okay. 851 00:38:05,880 --> 00:38:06,160 Kevin: That's good. 852 00:38:06,660 --> 00:38:12,840 Speaker 2: It also depends on, like, I think, at least at my work, we're lagging behind because we need to support older browsers. 853 00:38:13,420 --> 00:38:13,960 Speaker 2: Yeah, of course. 854 00:38:14,500 --> 00:38:17,660 Kevin: Like, you can't start using Temporal just because the newest 855 00:38:17,660 --> 00:38:19,320 Speaker 2: version of which browser is using them, right? 856 00:38:19,460 --> 00:38:19,920 Speaker 2: Yeah, exactly. 857 00:38:20,120 --> 00:38:20,520 Speaker 2: Unless you 858 00:38:20,520 --> 00:38:21,800 Kevin: polyfill or something, but. 859 00:38:22,280 --> 00:38:22,480 Speaker 2: Yeah. 860 00:38:24,900 --> 00:38:25,200 Speaker 2: All right. 861 00:38:25,340 --> 00:38:27,540 Speaker 2: We have jQuery, still relevant. 862 00:38:28,100 --> 00:38:29,680 Kevin: They released a new version, right? 863 00:38:29,680 --> 00:38:30,120 Kevin: They did. 864 00:38:30,560 --> 00:38:31,480 Kevin: I don't even know what the 865 00:38:31,480 --> 00:38:32,100 Speaker 2: new thing is. 866 00:38:32,600 --> 00:38:32,980 Speaker 2: Do you know? 867 00:38:34,000 --> 00:38:34,600 Kevin: No clue. 868 00:38:35,900 --> 00:38:38,820 Kevin: Internet Explorer 11 support removed. 869 00:38:39,260 --> 00:38:40,420 Speaker 2: Talk about 870 00:38:40,420 --> 00:38:41,240 Kevin: supporting old 871 00:38:41,240 --> 00:38:41,460 Speaker 2: browsers. 872 00:38:41,480 --> 00:38:42,100 Speaker 2: That's not okay. 873 00:38:42,560 --> 00:38:43,340 Speaker 2: That's not okay. 874 00:38:43,820 --> 00:38:44,880 Speaker 2: What do I do now? 875 00:38:45,320 --> 00:38:45,540 Kevin: Yeah. 876 00:38:46,060 --> 00:38:49,500 Kevin: Now all the old websites are breaking for Internet Explorer users. 877 00:38:50,140 --> 00:38:51,820 Kevin: They migrated to ES modules. 878 00:38:52,260 --> 00:38:52,520 Kevin: That's good. 879 00:38:52,920 --> 00:38:53,200 Speaker 2: Great. 880 00:38:53,720 --> 00:38:54,180 Speaker 2: Maybe that's it. 881 00:38:55,060 --> 00:38:57,520 Kevin: Yeah, they deprecated some old functions. 882 00:38:58,120 --> 00:38:58,320 Kevin: Okay. 883 00:38:59,740 --> 00:38:59,840 Kevin: Yeah. 884 00:39:00,520 --> 00:39:01,160 Kevin: Slimmer build. 885 00:39:02,360 --> 00:39:02,660 Speaker 2: Amazing. 886 00:39:03,240 --> 00:39:03,340 Kevin: Yeah. 887 00:39:03,360 --> 00:39:03,780 Kevin: I love that. 888 00:39:07,419 --> 00:39:08,760 Kevin: Oh, effect is on here. 889 00:39:09,240 --> 00:39:10,080 Speaker 2: Effect is on there. 890 00:39:10,450 --> 00:39:15,300 Speaker 2: So is archetype, which is not the same, but I feel like it's sort of the same group of people that will use them. 891 00:39:15,880 --> 00:39:16,040 Kevin: Yeah. 892 00:39:17,839 --> 00:39:18,700 Kevin: Archetype is interesting. 893 00:39:19,540 --> 00:39:21,540 Kevin: They did that, what's it called? 894 00:39:22,239 --> 00:39:27,020 Kevin: Arc regex, where you could do typesafe regex. 895 00:39:27,360 --> 00:39:27,900 Kevin: It's very cool. 896 00:39:28,960 --> 00:39:29,320 Kevin: It's 897 00:39:29,320 --> 00:39:30,260 Speaker 2: a very, very cool library. 898 00:39:30,830 --> 00:39:41,380 Speaker 2: And all the types, it's just, you write in your typescript types as a string, and that is a runtime validation, but then you also get the exact type safety. 899 00:39:42,380 --> 00:39:42,520 Speaker 3: Yeah. 900 00:39:43,720 --> 00:39:43,820 Speaker 2: I 901 00:39:43,820 --> 00:39:44,460 Speaker 3: don't know how they 902 00:39:44,460 --> 00:39:44,840 Speaker 2: did that. 903 00:39:45,180 --> 00:39:51,340 Speaker 2: It's so magical, but it's also, I feel like whenever I look at it, I'm like, oh, that looks very horrible. 904 00:39:51,660 --> 00:39:52,960 Speaker 2: Please can I not have that? 905 00:39:53,480 --> 00:39:55,540 Speaker 2: But also it's very incredible at the same time. 906 00:39:55,740 --> 00:39:57,540 Kevin: Yeah, I mean, regex is horrible. 907 00:39:58,340 --> 00:39:58,660 Kevin: True, 908 00:39:58,860 --> 00:39:59,360 Speaker 2: well, that is true. 909 00:40:00,160 --> 00:40:00,280 Kevin: Yeah. 910 00:40:01,120 --> 00:40:02,960 Kevin: even if you, yeah, I don't know. 911 00:40:04,240 --> 00:40:09,680 Speaker 2: I did spend some weeks when I was younger, just like I learned Regex. 912 00:40:09,880 --> 00:40:12,040 Speaker 2: I really like, I took courses and stuff. 913 00:40:12,540 --> 00:40:13,200 Speaker 3: Oh, really? 914 00:40:13,980 --> 00:40:14,740 Speaker 2: And it was great. 915 00:40:14,840 --> 00:40:16,320 Speaker 2: I mean, I was really happy for that decision. 916 00:40:16,580 --> 00:40:17,560 Speaker 2: I mean, that really helped me out. 917 00:40:18,000 --> 00:40:23,200 Speaker 2: Like that was a great investment, but also now I don't really write them anymore because the AI writes them for me. 918 00:40:23,580 --> 00:40:27,200 Speaker 2: And that's something that it's really good at and that I'm actually really bad at. 919 00:40:28,699 --> 00:40:29,059 Speaker 2: So 920 00:40:29,059 --> 00:40:31,600 Kevin: it's just something that's I mean, Regex is great. 921 00:40:31,730 --> 00:40:34,020 Kevin: Like you can do almost anything I was 922 00:40:34,020 --> 00:40:34,400 Speaker 2: going to say, 923 00:40:34,560 --> 00:40:35,980 Kevin: but like you can do a lot. 924 00:40:36,520 --> 00:40:39,300 Speaker 2: You can brew coffee and like anything 925 00:40:39,300 --> 00:40:40,100 Kevin: essentially. 926 00:40:40,580 --> 00:40:41,420 Kevin: Yeah, yeah, of course. 927 00:40:41,680 --> 00:40:42,380 Kevin: At least in ASCII. 928 00:40:44,740 --> 00:40:45,700 Speaker 2: Okay, moving on. 929 00:40:46,280 --> 00:40:46,500 Kevin: There's 930 00:40:46,500 --> 00:40:53,320 Speaker 2: something about graphics and animations and it's the thing that I have never dipped my toes into. 931 00:40:53,410 --> 00:40:55,220 Speaker 2: So I have no clue here. 932 00:40:56,060 --> 00:40:57,780 Kevin: I love motion. 933 00:40:58,200 --> 00:41:02,440 Kevin: Did you see, speaking of motion, did you see Svelte Motion or Motion Svelte? 934 00:41:02,460 --> 00:41:02,560 Kevin: I 935 00:41:02,560 --> 00:41:06,940 Speaker 2: saw it. I just went through the Svelte Society website and I saw Svelte Motion in there. 936 00:41:07,020 --> 00:41:08,400 Speaker 2: I even have it like as a tab open. 937 00:41:09,040 --> 00:41:09,400 Speaker 2: Oh, nice. 938 00:41:09,960 --> 00:41:10,020 Speaker 2: Nice. 939 00:41:10,800 --> 00:41:13,840 Speaker 2: It's not by the official, it's not an official port, is it? 940 00:41:13,920 --> 00:41:15,300 Speaker 2: No. No, I don't think 941 00:41:15,300 --> 00:41:15,560 Kevin: so. 942 00:41:15,560 --> 00:41:15,980 Kevin: No, but it's very impressive anyway. 943 00:41:17,500 --> 00:41:18,200 Speaker 2: It's apparently 944 00:41:18,200 --> 00:41:20,640 Kevin: based on motion for view. Or sorry, 945 00:41:20,720 --> 00:41:20,860 Speaker 3: the documentation. 946 00:41:20,860 --> 00:41:21,100 Speaker 3: I see. 947 00:41:21,860 --> 00:41:22,960 Speaker 2: The documentation is 948 00:41:22,960 --> 00:41:23,740 Kevin: based on that. Okay. 949 00:41:24,120 --> 00:41:25,180 Speaker 2: Okay. I see. 950 00:41:25,300 --> 00:41:26,800 Kevin: Yeah, I might play around with 951 00:41:26,800 --> 00:41:38,800 Speaker 2: this. Like animation are fun. The guy behind Motion is just a great guy. So I'm happy that he keeps building out these very impressive animations libraries, even though 952 00:41:38,800 --> 00:41:43,600 Kevin: at Ocean. Yeah. What else is there? 3.js, D3, the usual suspects, 953 00:41:44,280 --> 00:41:44,660 Speaker 2: GSAP. 954 00:41:45,370 --> 00:41:48,040 Kevin: Yeah. Utilities. ESLint is 955 00:41:48,040 --> 00:41:55,840 Speaker 2: top. ESLint is great. There was that one point where we thought that ESLint would become irrelevant because of TSLint and 956 00:41:55,840 --> 00:41:56,380 Speaker 3: everyone writes 957 00:41:56,380 --> 00:41:56,660 Speaker 2: TS. 958 00:41:57,100 --> 00:42:01,620 Speaker 2: But then they merged or the TSLint team said, no more. 959 00:42:02,080 --> 00:42:03,900 Speaker 2: We're going to do an ESLint plugin instead. 960 00:42:04,540 --> 00:42:04,980 Speaker 2: And that was great. 961 00:42:05,340 --> 00:42:06,500 Speaker 2: Like people putting their 962 00:42:06,500 --> 00:42:06,700 Kevin: heads together. 963 00:42:06,700 --> 00:42:07,120 Kevin: Good decision. 964 00:42:07,700 --> 00:42:08,180 Speaker 2: Yeah, yeah, yeah. 965 00:42:08,340 --> 00:42:10,880 Kevin: But now we're getting new ones as well, 966 00:42:11,060 --> 00:42:11,140 Speaker 2: right? 967 00:42:11,220 --> 00:42:13,000 Speaker 2: We're getting Biome and 968 00:42:13,000 --> 00:42:15,360 Kevin: AuxLint as well. 969 00:42:15,520 --> 00:42:15,880 Kevin: I've 970 00:42:15,880 --> 00:42:19,720 Speaker 2: been using AuxLint and AuxFormat on my new project. 971 00:42:20,320 --> 00:42:21,280 Kevin: And holy 972 00:42:21,280 --> 00:42:22,140 Speaker 2: wow. 973 00:42:22,480 --> 00:42:22,780 Speaker 2: Yeah. 974 00:42:23,720 --> 00:42:23,860 Kevin: Yeah, 975 00:42:24,220 --> 00:42:26,380 Speaker 2: I actually started 976 00:42:26,380 --> 00:42:32,980 Kevin: using it yesterday in my, like, so I have this like reference project that I'm using when I'm building other things. 977 00:42:33,680 --> 00:42:34,400 Speaker 3: And so I just 978 00:42:34,400 --> 00:42:37,300 Kevin: install it there to like see how fast it was. 979 00:42:37,400 --> 00:42:39,840 Kevin: And I think it was like a hundred times faster. 980 00:42:40,260 --> 00:42:41,400 Speaker 2: Like it's crazy fast. 981 00:42:41,740 --> 00:42:42,260 Speaker 2: Yeah, yeah, yeah. 982 00:42:42,860 --> 00:42:43,280 Speaker 2: It's way fast. 983 00:42:43,280 --> 00:42:43,620 Speaker 2: So that's 984 00:42:43,620 --> 00:42:44,460 Kevin: awesome. 985 00:42:44,710 --> 00:42:47,260 Kevin: Like getting that feedback way quicker 986 00:42:47,260 --> 00:42:48,860 Speaker 2: is great. 987 00:42:49,520 --> 00:42:55,080 Speaker 2: So for this project that I'm working on, The repo is not that big. 988 00:42:55,100 --> 00:42:57,400 Speaker 2: So I think Prettier was like four seconds. 989 00:42:59,040 --> 00:43:00,340 Speaker 2: And it's fine. 990 00:43:00,820 --> 00:43:05,020 Speaker 2: It's like going to aux format was like 200 milliseconds, 991 00:43:05,380 --> 00:43:05,860 Speaker 3: which is, of 992 00:43:05,860 --> 00:43:06,600 Speaker 2: course, amazing, right? 993 00:43:06,880 --> 00:43:09,520 Speaker 2: But those four seconds of speed up is not going to change my world. 994 00:43:09,980 --> 00:43:11,000 Speaker 2: It just felt nice. 995 00:43:11,380 --> 00:43:11,500 Kevin: Right. 996 00:43:11,960 --> 00:43:14,120 Kevin: Well, I don't know if I agree. 997 00:43:15,780 --> 00:43:19,660 Kevin: So 10 seconds to four seconds, that would not change my world. 998 00:43:19,720 --> 00:43:24,840 Kevin: But by four seconds to 200 milliseconds, definitely, because then you can just have it on all the time. 999 00:43:25,380 --> 00:43:28,480 Kevin: Like, you can just run it indiscriminately and you wouldn't really worry about it. 1000 00:43:28,720 --> 00:43:28,820 Kevin: I 1001 00:43:28,820 --> 00:43:29,100 Speaker 3: mean... 1002 00:43:29,160 --> 00:43:30,020 Speaker 3: Oh, so like watch mode? 1003 00:43:30,680 --> 00:43:30,940 Kevin: Yeah. 1004 00:43:31,220 --> 00:43:35,040 Kevin: Yeah, well, watch mode is going to be fast because you're just changing one file, right? 1005 00:43:35,140 --> 00:43:35,640 Kevin: Right, right. 1006 00:43:35,860 --> 00:43:36,960 Kevin: Hopefully that should work. 1007 00:43:38,520 --> 00:43:51,859 Kevin: But maybe it's not so much about, like, linting, but I feel that, like, you have these, like, tools where these categories of speed, right, where you have one tool that takes 10 minutes to run 1008 00:43:52,320 --> 00:43:52,940 Speaker 3: and it 1009 00:43:52,940 --> 00:44:02,640 Kevin: doesn't change much if you speed it up from 10 minutes to four minutes right because you're still going to go and get a coffee between the what you're doing and whatever you're running yeah 1010 00:44:02,640 --> 00:44:02,880 Speaker 3: um 1011 00:44:02,880 --> 00:44:07,320 Kevin: but but if you can get it down to like seconds then 1012 00:44:07,320 --> 00:44:08,320 Speaker 2: yeah i mean you kind of 1013 00:44:08,320 --> 00:44:12,600 Kevin: stay stay in the in the groove and you can just keep working in in another yeah 1014 00:44:12,600 --> 00:44:22,800 Speaker 2: there's this this magical threshold and i'm sure it's different for all of us like when when you know that something takes a certain amount of time, you do something else. 1015 00:44:23,740 --> 00:44:30,500 Speaker 2: If it's more than 10 seconds for me, I will be going on Blue Sky and not staring at it. 1016 00:44:30,580 --> 00:44:33,200 Speaker 2: But if I know it's eight seconds, I'll just be staring at it. 1017 00:44:33,880 --> 00:44:35,900 Speaker 2: And I should not be going on Blue Sky all the time. 1018 00:44:37,960 --> 00:44:38,800 Kevin: It's nice, though. 1019 00:44:39,619 --> 00:44:40,140 Speaker 2: It's great. 1020 00:44:40,880 --> 00:44:41,800 Speaker 2: It's very blue. 1021 00:44:42,620 --> 00:44:43,100 Speaker 2: I love that. 1022 00:44:44,080 --> 00:44:50,520 Speaker 2: No, but so what I wanted to say was that in the Storybook Mono repo, which is a huge repository, with lots of packages. 1023 00:44:51,680 --> 00:44:55,000 Speaker 2: ESLint takes, I think, two minutes on my machine. 1024 00:44:55,040 --> 00:44:57,480 Speaker 2: Whoa, that's a long time. 1025 00:44:57,670 --> 00:44:57,940 Speaker 2: It's horrible. 1026 00:44:58,240 --> 00:45:01,340 Speaker 2: It's a horrible, horrible situation. 1027 00:45:02,080 --> 00:45:05,760 Kevin: And then it's probably even, it's probably less than what it was two versions ago, right? 1028 00:45:06,080 --> 00:45:07,000 Kevin: Sure, yeah, yeah. 1029 00:45:07,000 --> 00:45:07,680 Kevin: Or was it three versions ago? 1030 00:45:07,960 --> 00:45:09,840 Kevin: Yeah, they improved their speed already. 1031 00:45:11,560 --> 00:45:13,100 Speaker 2: Oh yeah, two versions of Storybook, you mean? 1032 00:45:13,680 --> 00:45:14,240 Kevin: Yeah, yeah. 1033 00:45:14,420 --> 00:45:15,020 Speaker 2: Yeah, yeah, for sure. 1034 00:45:16,620 --> 00:45:20,580 Speaker 2: And so I really hope that someone is trying to migrate that to Oxlint. 1035 00:45:21,030 --> 00:45:24,000 Speaker 2: And just, I want to see that go to five seconds or something. 1036 00:45:24,360 --> 00:45:25,180 Kevin: That'd be nice, right? 1037 00:45:25,580 --> 00:45:26,260 Speaker 2: That would be amazing. 1038 00:45:27,700 --> 00:45:31,960 Kevin: You can use JavaScript, or sorry, ESLint JavaScript plugins in Oxlint. 1039 00:45:32,220 --> 00:45:34,320 Kevin: So theoretically, it should be possible. 1040 00:45:34,920 --> 00:45:36,300 Kevin: I don't know what the status is of it. 1041 00:45:36,480 --> 00:45:37,740 Kevin: So maybe there are bugs and stuff. 1042 00:45:37,790 --> 00:45:38,340 Kevin: I'm sure there are. 1043 00:45:39,920 --> 00:45:43,060 Kevin: But it's like it has a way forward. 1044 00:45:43,840 --> 00:45:46,640 Kevin: Because Oxlint is Rust, I think, right? 1045 00:45:47,220 --> 00:45:51,260 Kevin: And you're not going to have people write ESLint plugins in Rust, probably. 1046 00:45:51,900 --> 00:45:54,900 Kevin: So it's good that you can still write JavaScript plugins. 1047 00:45:55,320 --> 00:46:04,420 Kevin: Although, with LLMs, maybe writing ESLint plugins in Rust, just like converting the JavaScript version, isn't that bad? 1048 00:46:04,760 --> 00:46:06,360 Speaker 2: I think it depends on who you are, right? 1049 00:46:06,440 --> 00:46:09,040 Speaker 2: Because if I did that, I would have no way to quality. 1050 00:46:09,700 --> 00:46:11,220 Speaker 2: I would not be able to read the code. 1051 00:46:11,720 --> 00:46:11,940 Speaker 2: Because I 1052 00:46:11,940 --> 00:46:12,480 Kevin: don't write Rust, 1053 00:46:12,720 --> 00:46:12,780 Speaker 2: right? 1054 00:46:13,440 --> 00:46:15,060 Speaker 2: I'm sure there could be tests, but still. 1055 00:46:15,840 --> 00:46:17,420 Kevin: I mean, I'm sure there are tests, right? 1056 00:46:17,620 --> 00:46:20,320 Kevin: For the ESLint spell plugin. 1057 00:46:20,780 --> 00:46:21,120 Kevin: There should be. 1058 00:46:21,450 --> 00:46:24,460 Kevin: So you should be able to just convert the tests and then have it. 1059 00:46:24,860 --> 00:46:25,600 Kevin: I need to try this. 1060 00:46:26,780 --> 00:46:27,080 Kevin: You should. 1061 00:46:27,530 --> 00:46:29,160 Speaker 2: Can you write it in like assembly instead? 1062 00:46:29,620 --> 00:46:30,920 Speaker 2: Just to make it super, super fast. 1063 00:46:31,240 --> 00:46:31,740 Speaker 2: I mean, why not? 1064 00:46:32,300 --> 00:46:32,860 Speaker 2: Just make it binary. 1065 00:46:33,780 --> 00:46:34,560 Speaker 2: Because you can't. 1066 00:46:34,610 --> 00:46:35,280 Speaker 2: I don't think you can. 1067 00:46:35,740 --> 00:46:37,240 Speaker 2: No, I don't think I can either. 1068 00:46:39,360 --> 00:46:40,340 Speaker 2: It would be a fun challenge, though. 1069 00:46:40,760 --> 00:46:42,060 Speaker 2: No, not fun, per se. 1070 00:46:42,370 --> 00:46:42,760 Speaker 2: But it would be 1071 00:46:42,760 --> 00:46:43,040 Kevin: a challenge. 1072 00:46:43,060 --> 00:46:45,980 Kevin: be torture yeah um 1073 00:46:45,980 --> 00:46:52,720 Speaker 2: anyways there's there's one there's one i see in the utilities there's one thing i want to call out here it's a 1074 00:46:52,720 --> 00:46:53,460 Speaker 3: hidden gem 1075 00:46:53,460 --> 00:46:58,840 Speaker 2: it's number 16 it's called n i or or knee or nye or however 1076 00:46:58,840 --> 00:47:01,140 Speaker 3: you know n i have 1077 00:47:01,140 --> 00:47:15,120 Speaker 2: you heard of that i have not heard about that it's amazing it's a package by Anthony Fu. It's essentially just running one CLI to handle any package manager. 1078 00:47:15,480 --> 00:47:20,220 Speaker 2: So it detects which package manager is being used in this repository and then it runs that command. 1079 00:47:20,580 --> 00:47:21,580 Speaker 3: So instead of you having to figure 1080 00:47:21,580 --> 00:47:28,080 Speaker 2: out is it yarn install, is it npm install, is it whatever, you just run ni and then that does it. It's short. 1081 00:47:28,600 --> 00:47:32,040 Kevin: I am putting this on my list to use. 1082 00:47:32,440 --> 00:47:34,660 Speaker 2: And for running scripts, it's nr. 1083 00:47:34,770 --> 00:47:36,320 Speaker 2: Like it's the same package, but it's another command. 1084 00:47:36,400 --> 00:47:37,940 Speaker 2: So nr and then just the script name. 1085 00:47:38,840 --> 00:47:39,560 Speaker 2: And then it just figures. 1086 00:47:39,760 --> 00:47:44,920 Speaker 2: And so if there's no log files, there's no indicator whatsoever about the package manager, it will ask you. 1087 00:47:45,520 --> 00:47:45,580 Speaker 2: But 1088 00:47:45,580 --> 00:47:46,120 Speaker 3: other than that, 1089 00:47:46,120 --> 00:47:48,300 Speaker 2: that is what I use. 1090 00:47:48,980 --> 00:47:51,660 Speaker 2: And I'm very close to also that's what I'm documenting. 1091 00:47:51,920 --> 00:47:53,440 Speaker 2: Like if I'm writing and getting started, 1092 00:47:53,600 --> 00:47:53,720 Speaker 3: I 1093 00:47:53,720 --> 00:47:58,200 Speaker 2: might potentially just write n i because it's so good. 1094 00:47:59,360 --> 00:48:00,360 Speaker 2: That sounds really useful. 1095 00:48:00,900 --> 00:48:13,480 Speaker 2: Yeah. But the only issue I have with it is that whenever I change node versions because of like different repositories, I have to install it again. Like it's a global install. And apparently these global installs are like per node version. That's 1096 00:48:13,480 --> 00:48:14,120 Kevin: just so 1097 00:48:14,120 --> 00:48:15,260 Speaker 2: stupid. I hate that. 1098 00:48:15,560 --> 00:48:22,420 Kevin: Yeah, I'm in some situations. It's not the same, but it's similar where like I'm using better SQLite 3 1099 00:48:22,420 --> 00:48:24,000 Speaker 3: and PNPM 1100 00:48:24,000 --> 00:48:33,660 Kevin: and some node version. And for some reason, I have to rebuild Better SQLite 3 every time I make a fork, or sorry, like make a branch of the project. 1101 00:48:34,060 --> 00:48:34,540 Kevin: It's very odd. 1102 00:48:35,780 --> 00:48:36,420 Kevin: It's very irritating. 1103 00:48:36,850 --> 00:48:37,080 Kevin: I don't know 1104 00:48:37,080 --> 00:48:37,400 Speaker 3: why, 1105 00:48:37,960 --> 00:48:43,560 Kevin: but also something to do with Node versions because it always complains like, oh, this was built for this Node version. 1106 00:48:43,760 --> 00:48:44,800 Kevin: You're using this other 1107 00:48:44,800 --> 00:48:45,020 Speaker 2: one. 1108 00:48:45,190 --> 00:48:45,460 Speaker 2: You have to 1109 00:48:45,460 --> 00:48:46,020 Kevin: rebuild it. 1110 00:48:46,220 --> 00:48:47,080 Kevin: Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. 1111 00:48:47,590 --> 00:48:47,680 Kevin: Exactly. 1112 00:48:48,540 --> 00:48:49,200 Kevin: It is what it is. 1113 00:48:49,660 --> 00:48:50,900 Speaker 2: Kev, I have to go in five minutes. 1114 00:48:51,400 --> 00:48:51,840 Kevin: Oh, no. 1115 00:48:52,440 --> 00:48:53,320 Kevin: I should have told you from the 1116 00:48:53,320 --> 00:48:53,580 Speaker 2: beginning. 1117 00:48:53,960 --> 00:48:54,580 Speaker 2: Do you want to do 1118 00:48:54,580 --> 00:48:55,140 Kevin: picks? 1119 00:48:55,960 --> 00:48:56,260 Speaker 2: Yes. 1120 00:48:56,840 --> 00:48:57,700 Kevin: I have one pick. 1121 00:48:58,240 --> 00:49:00,840 Kevin: We did Unpopular Opinions last time. 1122 00:49:01,000 --> 00:49:01,660 Kevin: True, true, 1123 00:49:01,660 --> 00:49:01,780 Speaker 2: true, true. 1124 00:49:02,020 --> 00:49:02,500 Speaker 2: Let's do picks. 1125 00:49:02,660 --> 00:49:03,680 Speaker 2: Do you want to do that first? 1126 00:49:04,000 --> 00:49:04,500 Speaker 2: Do you have anything? 1127 00:49:05,800 --> 00:49:08,880 Kevin: I think the new Game of Thrones TV show is good. 1128 00:49:09,860 --> 00:49:09,980 Kevin: I 1129 00:49:09,980 --> 00:49:14,140 Speaker 2: think the previous episode of Svelte Radio is all just one big unpopular opinion. 1130 00:49:16,400 --> 00:49:16,500 Speaker 2: No. 1131 00:49:17,500 --> 00:49:20,080 Kevin: Just my unpopular opinion for the whole episode. 1132 00:49:20,780 --> 00:49:20,980 Speaker 2: Yes. 1133 00:49:22,560 --> 00:49:24,120 Speaker 2: Sorry, I cut you off. 1134 00:49:24,280 --> 00:49:26,180 Speaker 2: Game of Thrones, new series. 1135 00:49:26,280 --> 00:49:26,740 Kevin: Is it good? 1136 00:49:27,200 --> 00:49:27,640 Kevin: Yeah, yeah. 1137 00:49:27,880 --> 00:49:29,940 Kevin: And it's called A Night of the Seven Kingdoms. 1138 00:49:30,040 --> 00:49:34,420 Kevin: It's a bit more comedic than the original show. 1139 00:49:36,580 --> 00:49:37,620 Kevin: The actors are good. 1140 00:49:38,760 --> 00:49:39,980 Speaker 2: I would expect that 1141 00:49:39,980 --> 00:49:40,660 Kevin: people hate 1142 00:49:40,660 --> 00:49:41,840 Speaker 2: it just because it's different actors. 1143 00:49:42,240 --> 00:49:44,980 Speaker 2: Like, it's just different faces on the same characters, or not? 1144 00:49:45,140 --> 00:49:48,360 Kevin: No, no, but it's like 90 years before the 1145 00:49:48,360 --> 00:49:49,080 Speaker 2: start of the Game 1146 00:49:49,080 --> 00:49:49,560 Kevin: of Thrones show. 1147 00:49:49,560 --> 00:49:49,820 Kevin: Oh, I see. 1148 00:49:50,440 --> 00:49:51,360 Kevin: So it's not 1149 00:49:51,360 --> 00:49:51,760 Speaker 2: a reboot. 1150 00:49:52,660 --> 00:49:52,740 Kevin: Yeah. 1151 00:49:52,900 --> 00:49:53,120 Kevin: Okay. 1152 00:49:53,400 --> 00:49:53,800 Kevin: Reboot. 1153 00:49:54,040 --> 00:49:54,280 Kevin: Reboot. 1154 00:49:54,460 --> 00:49:54,800 Kevin: Reboot. 1155 00:49:56,000 --> 00:49:56,080 Kevin: We 1156 00:49:56,080 --> 00:49:57,160 Speaker 2: should call it that. 1157 00:49:57,700 --> 00:49:57,800 Speaker 3: Yeah. 1158 00:49:58,350 --> 00:49:58,480 Speaker 2: OK. 1159 00:49:58,950 --> 00:49:59,080 Speaker 2: So 1160 00:49:59,080 --> 00:50:00,200 Speaker 3: the Game of Thrones Reboot 1161 00:50:00,200 --> 00:50:10,820 Speaker 2: is-- my pick is if you have been keeping up with Blue Sky and you are also in the JavaScript ecosystem, your timeline will have been flooded with 1162 00:50:10,820 --> 00:50:11,340 Kevin: NPMX. 1163 00:50:11,340 --> 00:50:11,600 Kevin: Let me guess. 1164 00:50:12,070 --> 00:50:12,240 Kevin: Yeah. 1165 00:50:12,510 --> 00:50:13,580 Kevin: I was going to 1166 00:50:13,580 --> 00:50:13,800 Speaker 2: do this. 1167 00:50:14,300 --> 00:50:15,980 Speaker 2: But that's good because it's amazing. 1168 00:50:16,340 --> 00:50:21,440 Speaker 2: It's incredible what these people have done in so little 1169 00:50:21,440 --> 00:50:21,480 Kevin: time. 1170 00:50:21,480 --> 00:50:22,300 Kevin: In like a week? 1171 00:50:22,600 --> 00:50:22,920 Speaker 2: Yeah. 1172 00:50:23,650 --> 00:50:24,300 Speaker 2: One or two weeks. 1173 00:50:25,120 --> 00:50:33,160 Speaker 2: So npmx.dev is an attempt of an internative registry site for npm. 1174 00:50:33,210 --> 00:50:34,900 Speaker 2: So it's the same registry. 1175 00:50:35,140 --> 00:50:39,420 Speaker 2: It's still using the npm registry behind the scenes or under the hood. 1176 00:50:40,840 --> 00:50:42,620 Speaker 2: But the site is just improved. 1177 00:50:42,840 --> 00:50:46,680 Speaker 2: So it now includes vulnerability alerts for each package. 1178 00:50:46,870 --> 00:50:49,800 Speaker 2: It includes the package size or the dependency graph. 1179 00:50:50,440 --> 00:50:56,060 Speaker 2: There's so much more stuff that they're adding that NPM should have added five years ago, 1180 00:50:56,480 --> 00:50:57,400 Kevin: but that 1181 00:50:57,400 --> 00:50:57,980 Speaker 2: has been stale. 1182 00:50:59,320 --> 00:51:04,740 Kevin: Does it also show you, like, I seem to have some vague memory of someone mentioning 1183 00:51:06,060 --> 00:51:07,020 Speaker 3: that they 1184 00:51:07,020 --> 00:51:10,460 Kevin: would kind of tie it into the E18 end thing where you could, 1185 00:51:10,460 --> 00:51:11,620 Speaker 3: if you search 1186 00:51:11,620 --> 00:51:15,300 Kevin: for Lodash, you would get an alternative that is... 1187 00:51:16,180 --> 00:51:16,360 Speaker 3: I 1188 00:51:16,360 --> 00:51:16,860 Speaker 2: think so. 1189 00:51:17,680 --> 00:51:18,840 Speaker 2: That's a good idea, at least. 1190 00:51:19,200 --> 00:51:19,320 Speaker 2: I 1191 00:51:19,320 --> 00:51:20,020 Speaker 3: can't remember. 1192 00:51:21,540 --> 00:51:51,720 Speaker 2: but it's just it's very impressive what they're doing and by the time this episode comes out they'll have done so much more so I even right now from yesterday I can see that they fixed the bug that I didn't even report they just fixed it so so wild one thing that I do want to talk talk about this though is that if you are thinking of trying to get into open source and contributing, go to these people because it's a very friendly community and they're very active. 1193 00:51:52,300 --> 00:51:54,960 Speaker 2: They are very helpful and they want you to succeed. 1194 00:51:55,350 --> 00:51:57,860 Speaker 2: I can see that when I look at the Discord server. 1195 00:51:58,360 --> 00:51:59,560 Speaker 2: So it's a great place to start. 1196 00:52:01,100 --> 00:52:05,640 Speaker 2: The worst thing you can do is go in and then do AI slot PRs. 1197 00:52:05,930 --> 00:52:06,560 Speaker 2: Do not do that. 1198 00:52:06,600 --> 00:52:06,840 Speaker 2: Yes. 1199 00:52:07,620 --> 00:52:10,680 Speaker 2: That is not how you claim your open source fame. 1200 00:52:11,660 --> 00:52:13,440 Speaker 2: And they will, of course, not like that. 1201 00:52:13,860 --> 00:52:14,940 Speaker 2: So please do real contributions. 1202 00:52:15,560 --> 00:52:17,160 Speaker 2: and i think this is the great place to do that 1203 00:52:17,160 --> 00:52:24,320 Kevin: there's so many opportunities here with that said like of course use use lms if if that improves the 1204 00:52:24,320 --> 00:52:29,100 Speaker 2: code i don't care about what tool you're using but it's very clear if you're using your tool wrong yeah 1205 00:52:29,100 --> 00:52:35,060 Kevin: that's what i'm saying yeah and it's becoming a bigger issue as well yeah in in the open source community in general yeah 1206 00:52:35,060 --> 00:52:41,780 Speaker 2: yeah yeah for for everyone involved um i i have closed a few prs today that was just not impressive 1207 00:52:43,540 --> 00:52:43,740 Speaker 3: Yeah. 1208 00:52:44,220 --> 00:52:44,580 Speaker 3: Anyways. 1209 00:52:44,580 --> 00:52:44,980 Speaker 3: All right. 1210 00:52:45,850 --> 00:52:46,500 Speaker 3: Thank you for chatting. 1211 00:52:46,980 --> 00:52:47,780 Kevin: Yeah, it was great. 1212 00:52:47,910 --> 00:52:48,220 Kevin: It was great. 1213 00:52:48,580 --> 00:52:49,700 Kevin: Thank you all for listening. 1214 00:52:50,740 --> 00:52:54,760 Kevin: We will be back next week again with-- maybe we'll have a guest. 1215 00:52:55,070 --> 00:52:55,440 Kevin: Who knows? 1216 00:52:55,780 --> 00:52:56,240 Speaker 2: We will see. 1217 00:52:56,770 --> 00:52:56,880 Speaker 2: Yeah. 1218 00:52:57,320 --> 00:52:57,380 Speaker 2: Right. 1219 00:52:57,620 --> 00:53:01,080 Speaker 2: Maybe Brittany will be a guest from calling in from the sunny side. 1220 00:53:01,400 --> 00:53:01,500 Speaker 2: That 1221 00:53:01,500 --> 00:53:02,240 Kevin: would be so fun. 1222 00:53:02,640 --> 00:53:03,100 Kevin: I would 1223 00:53:03,100 --> 00:53:03,480 Speaker 2: like that. 1224 00:53:03,850 --> 00:53:03,960 Speaker 2: Yeah. 1225 00:53:04,320 --> 00:53:04,560 Kevin: Right. 1226 00:53:04,770 --> 00:53:04,980 Kevin: All right. 1227 00:53:05,550 --> 00:53:05,960 Kevin: Thank you, Jep. 1228 00:53:06,240 --> 00:53:10,060 Kevin: I will talk to you on Discord, and I will see you next week. 1229 00:53:10,560 --> 00:53:10,820 Kevin: See you. 1230 00:53:11,380 --> 00:53:11,820 Kevin: All right. 1231 00:53:11,970 --> 00:53:12,200 Kevin: Bye bye.