1 00:00:00,000 --> 00:00:13,760 Welcome to the We Are More podcast. 2 00:00:13,760 --> 00:00:15,600 My name is Alyssa. 3 00:00:15,600 --> 00:00:16,600 And my name's Bri. 4 00:00:16,600 --> 00:00:20,600 We are two sisters passionate about all things faith and feminism. 5 00:00:20,600 --> 00:00:25,520 We believe that Jesus trusted, respected, and encouraged women to teach and preach His 6 00:00:25,520 --> 00:00:26,520 word. 7 00:00:26,520 --> 00:00:28,720 And apparently that's controversial. 8 00:00:28,720 --> 00:00:32,360 Get comfy. 9 00:00:32,360 --> 00:00:34,320 Hello! 10 00:00:34,320 --> 00:00:36,520 Hello. 11 00:00:36,520 --> 00:00:40,520 Welcome back. 12 00:00:40,520 --> 00:00:46,520 What episode is this? 13 00:00:46,520 --> 00:00:47,520 Five? 14 00:00:47,520 --> 00:00:48,520 Is it five? 15 00:00:48,520 --> 00:00:49,520 It's five. 16 00:00:49,520 --> 00:00:52,520 Ah, we're in kindergarten. 17 00:00:52,520 --> 00:00:55,320 That's it. 18 00:00:55,320 --> 00:00:59,320 Welcome to Kinder Roundup. 19 00:00:59,320 --> 00:01:01,920 I remember in kindergarten a kid threw up on the table. 20 00:01:01,920 --> 00:01:03,320 In kindergarten roundup? 21 00:01:03,320 --> 00:01:04,320 No. 22 00:01:04,320 --> 00:01:08,000 I was talking too much at the blue table so she moved me over to the green table. 23 00:01:08,000 --> 00:01:12,240 And the day that she moved me over to the green table, Curtis threw up on the table! 24 00:01:12,240 --> 00:01:18,000 And then the next day I was back at the blue. 25 00:01:18,000 --> 00:01:20,000 Do you think you like went home and told mom that? 26 00:01:20,000 --> 00:01:22,480 And mom gave her a call and was like, no. 27 00:01:22,480 --> 00:01:24,160 I don't think so. 28 00:01:24,160 --> 00:01:26,240 No more Curtis. 29 00:01:26,240 --> 00:01:27,240 Stop puking! 30 00:01:27,240 --> 00:01:30,240 I was like, whoa! 31 00:01:30,240 --> 00:01:34,400 I don't know why that is such a core memory for me, but Curtis! 32 00:01:34,400 --> 00:01:36,840 I feel like you've told me this story a thousand times. 33 00:01:36,840 --> 00:01:41,800 Curtis, if you're out there, I'm not sure if you were my boyfriend or not, but you did 34 00:01:41,800 --> 00:01:43,760 throw up on the table. 35 00:01:43,760 --> 00:01:44,760 And that was nasty. 36 00:01:44,760 --> 00:01:46,760 Do you think that he was your boyfriend? 37 00:01:46,760 --> 00:01:52,560 Well there is a video of me saying like, oh, and I said, my boyfriend's Curtis. 38 00:01:52,560 --> 00:01:53,560 Yeah, I remember that. 39 00:01:53,560 --> 00:01:55,000 But it could have been a different Curtis. 40 00:01:55,000 --> 00:01:57,120 Although how many people are named Curtis? 41 00:01:57,120 --> 00:01:58,640 Are there any Curtises out there? 42 00:01:58,640 --> 00:02:01,920 Yes, I'm sure we attract a lot of Curtises. 43 00:02:01,920 --> 00:02:02,920 Perhaps! 44 00:02:02,920 --> 00:02:06,480 Hey Curtis, are you interested in feminism? 45 00:02:06,480 --> 00:02:07,480 Biblically? 46 00:02:07,480 --> 00:02:12,840 Oh, I can't even say the word biblically. 47 00:02:12,840 --> 00:02:15,960 So guys, we're actually recording sort of midday today. 48 00:02:15,960 --> 00:02:17,280 Yeah, we're fresh! 49 00:02:17,280 --> 00:02:18,280 So yay! 50 00:02:18,280 --> 00:02:21,160 Good for us. 51 00:02:21,160 --> 00:02:25,440 Perhaps not our bedtime, 830 at night! 52 00:02:25,440 --> 00:02:29,320 I feel like other people are gonna watch this and they're gonna think something's wrong 53 00:02:29,320 --> 00:02:32,200 with these women that go to bed at 830. 54 00:02:32,200 --> 00:02:36,960 No, probably most women are listening to this and they're like, I get it. 55 00:02:36,960 --> 00:02:37,960 You know what I saw? 56 00:02:37,960 --> 00:02:42,760 Now, okay, I don't know if this is substantiated, but I was watching a TikTok. 57 00:02:42,760 --> 00:02:43,760 Wow. 58 00:02:43,760 --> 00:02:49,960 And the woman said that the studies, the sleep studies that they did to say you need eight 59 00:02:49,960 --> 00:02:54,080 hours of sleep a night were only done on men. 60 00:02:54,080 --> 00:02:58,760 And women actually need closer to like nine hours of sleep, ten hours if you're on your 61 00:02:58,760 --> 00:03:00,040 period. 62 00:03:00,040 --> 00:03:01,040 Makes sense for me. 63 00:03:01,040 --> 00:03:02,040 I get it. 64 00:03:02,040 --> 00:03:04,400 There's a lot of thoughts happening in my head, you know? 65 00:03:04,400 --> 00:03:06,600 Like right now or on your period? 66 00:03:06,600 --> 00:03:07,600 All the time. 67 00:03:07,600 --> 00:03:08,600 Oh. 68 00:03:08,600 --> 00:03:11,120 I need a lot of sleep. 69 00:03:11,120 --> 00:03:12,440 We're much higher energy than normal. 70 00:03:12,440 --> 00:03:13,440 Look at how loud we are. 71 00:03:13,440 --> 00:03:14,440 I know. 72 00:03:14,440 --> 00:03:15,440 I'm tired all the time. 73 00:03:15,440 --> 00:03:16,440 Me too. 74 00:03:16,440 --> 00:03:17,440 At some point. 75 00:03:17,440 --> 00:03:18,720 So I'm drinking. 76 00:03:18,720 --> 00:03:21,960 At some point maybe we'll catch up when we're 85. 77 00:03:21,960 --> 00:03:25,520 We're not gonna make it to 85. 78 00:03:25,520 --> 00:03:26,520 Oh. 79 00:03:26,520 --> 00:03:31,760 At the rate we're going, we're likely if we make it to 67. 80 00:03:31,760 --> 00:03:33,000 Well we're gonna run out of money. 81 00:03:33,000 --> 00:03:34,640 We spend it all on Disney. 82 00:03:34,640 --> 00:03:35,640 Yeah. 83 00:03:35,640 --> 00:03:39,320 Although maybe we could just use Disney as a retirement home. 84 00:03:39,320 --> 00:03:41,300 Yeah, I think that would work. 85 00:03:41,300 --> 00:03:43,880 I think Disney should create a retirement home and be very popular. 86 00:03:43,880 --> 00:03:45,400 Oh my gosh. 87 00:03:45,400 --> 00:03:47,280 Although then it'd be like sad. 88 00:03:47,280 --> 00:03:49,600 Like you're not allowed to die at Disney anyways. 89 00:03:49,600 --> 00:03:53,240 So you wouldn't die at Disney, you'd die at the Disney retirement home. 90 00:03:53,240 --> 00:03:56,600 But you're not allowed to do that. 91 00:03:56,600 --> 00:03:57,600 Maybe it would be off property. 92 00:03:57,600 --> 00:04:00,200 They'd just send Mickey there occasionally. 93 00:04:00,200 --> 00:04:01,200 Let's get back on topic. 94 00:04:01,200 --> 00:04:02,200 Okay. 95 00:04:02,200 --> 00:04:04,840 But I'm having so much fun. 96 00:04:04,840 --> 00:04:06,320 Today we're talking about? 97 00:04:06,320 --> 00:04:09,880 Today we're talking about women in leadership. 98 00:04:09,880 --> 00:04:10,880 Girl preach. 99 00:04:10,880 --> 00:04:15,960 I said that today at work. 100 00:04:15,960 --> 00:04:17,480 Intentionally or just for fun? 101 00:04:17,480 --> 00:04:19,520 I said it and then I was like, ha ha ha. 102 00:04:19,520 --> 00:04:22,160 We're talking about that later. 103 00:04:22,160 --> 00:04:29,720 So historically women have been very left out of leadership in churches. 104 00:04:29,720 --> 00:04:31,160 It's an interesting story. 105 00:04:31,160 --> 00:04:35,760 So we grew up very conservative, as we have said. 106 00:04:35,760 --> 00:04:41,840 So the churches that we were in, absolutely no women would have been in any position of 107 00:04:41,840 --> 00:04:42,840 leadership. 108 00:04:42,840 --> 00:04:48,520 Like you might have seen a woman teaching younger grades for Sunday school. 109 00:04:48,520 --> 00:04:50,120 Well they're allowed to teach Sunday school. 110 00:04:50,120 --> 00:04:51,120 Right. 111 00:04:51,120 --> 00:04:52,960 Because men think that that's below them. 112 00:04:52,960 --> 00:04:57,000 But even- Not all men, some men. 113 00:04:57,000 --> 00:04:59,840 But even Beth Ellison Barr, who we love- 114 00:04:59,840 --> 00:05:00,840 Beth! 115 00:05:00,840 --> 00:05:02,640 Shout out. 116 00:05:02,640 --> 00:05:07,800 So she talks about in her book that she on a normal basis would not have been allowed 117 00:05:07,800 --> 00:05:13,880 to teach in youth group because those boys were at an age where they shouldn't be taught 118 00:05:13,880 --> 00:05:15,640 by women anymore. 119 00:05:15,640 --> 00:05:19,880 Didn't she say like any boy 13 and older shouldn't be taught by a woman? 120 00:05:19,880 --> 00:05:20,880 Yeah. 121 00:05:20,880 --> 00:05:22,240 Now I hadn't heard that prior to that book. 122 00:05:22,240 --> 00:05:24,400 That's not like something that was taught in our churches. 123 00:05:24,400 --> 00:05:31,520 But the interesting thing is, so my husband Nathan grew up in Assemblies of God churches, 124 00:05:31,520 --> 00:05:32,520 I believe. 125 00:05:32,520 --> 00:05:37,880 He's slightly less conservative, pretty chill from my experience with them. 126 00:05:37,880 --> 00:05:39,360 A little more structured, I think. 127 00:05:39,360 --> 00:05:42,440 I think they have that upward structure. 128 00:05:42,440 --> 00:05:48,640 But he said that nobody ever talked about women couldn't be in leadership. 129 00:05:48,640 --> 00:05:54,140 It was fairly normal to have female pastors, female leadership. 130 00:05:54,140 --> 00:05:56,000 So that's really interesting to me. 131 00:05:56,000 --> 00:05:57,000 That is interesting. 132 00:05:57,000 --> 00:06:00,020 Because I never saw that. 133 00:06:00,020 --> 00:06:07,680 So today, because we're kind of doing a little mini series, going into the basics of why 134 00:06:07,680 --> 00:06:13,560 we believe what we believe, why we believe women should be more. 135 00:06:13,560 --> 00:06:14,560 We are more. 136 00:06:14,560 --> 00:06:15,560 Do that again. 137 00:06:15,560 --> 00:06:19,640 You do it every episode. 138 00:06:19,640 --> 00:06:23,740 So we're going into a little bit of all of the basics and then we'll loop back as time 139 00:06:23,740 --> 00:06:27,680 goes on and I'm sure we'll dive deeper into each of these topics. 140 00:06:27,680 --> 00:06:30,920 Because there's just a lot to uncover and unfold. 141 00:06:30,920 --> 00:06:31,920 So. 142 00:06:31,920 --> 00:06:35,160 Just like watching your face do weird stuff. 143 00:06:35,160 --> 00:06:36,640 That's really impressive. 144 00:06:36,640 --> 00:06:37,640 It's just my face. 145 00:06:37,640 --> 00:06:39,640 I don't know what to say. 146 00:06:39,640 --> 00:06:40,640 It's very expressive. 147 00:06:40,640 --> 00:06:43,920 I'm going to have wrinkles. 148 00:06:43,920 --> 00:06:48,720 Someday if we record this for YouTube, then people can see how expressive you are. 149 00:06:48,720 --> 00:06:52,600 Well, someday I'm going to get Botox. 150 00:06:52,600 --> 00:06:54,920 Oh, that's fun. 151 00:06:54,920 --> 00:06:57,960 Someday very soon I feel. 152 00:06:57,960 --> 00:07:04,920 Okay, so I, Bri and I kind of researched and dove into different sections. 153 00:07:04,920 --> 00:07:07,520 So I'm going to go first. 154 00:07:07,520 --> 00:07:11,200 And most of my research comes from a book called Tell Her Story. 155 00:07:11,200 --> 00:07:14,040 I believe it's a newer book. 156 00:07:14,040 --> 00:07:17,880 I don't know how to say the author's first name. 157 00:07:17,880 --> 00:07:19,840 His last name is Gupta. 158 00:07:19,840 --> 00:07:21,360 So go ahead and look it up with that. 159 00:07:21,360 --> 00:07:23,400 Yeah, maybe we can post like a picture of it online. 160 00:07:23,400 --> 00:07:26,040 We need to do a book list. 161 00:07:26,040 --> 00:07:27,040 That's a great idea. 162 00:07:27,040 --> 00:07:28,040 Yeah, we've talked about it. 163 00:07:28,040 --> 00:07:29,040 I think I've brought it up. 164 00:07:29,040 --> 00:07:30,040 You have. 165 00:07:30,040 --> 00:07:33,840 But the way that I found it is because our favorite Beth Ellison Barr. 166 00:07:33,840 --> 00:07:34,840 Beth! 167 00:07:34,840 --> 00:07:37,740 She wrote the foreword for this book. 168 00:07:37,740 --> 00:07:42,120 So when I googled her name to see if she had any other books that I could read, this popped 169 00:07:42,120 --> 00:07:43,120 up. 170 00:07:43,120 --> 00:07:48,920 And one of the like endorsements on the back, it says, tell her story, maybe the final nail 171 00:07:48,920 --> 00:07:52,400 in the coffin of Christian patriarchy. 172 00:07:52,400 --> 00:07:54,200 And it's a very research based book. 173 00:07:54,200 --> 00:07:57,320 So if anything could do it. 174 00:07:57,320 --> 00:08:00,240 It's just whether people choose to listen or not. 175 00:08:00,240 --> 00:08:05,160 The first thing that he kind of goes into in part two, the first part goes into some 176 00:08:05,160 --> 00:08:06,160 specific women. 177 00:08:06,160 --> 00:08:10,920 But one of the first things that he goes into is talking about how modern churches do not 178 00:08:10,920 --> 00:08:14,640 operate the same way that their early church did. 179 00:08:14,640 --> 00:08:15,640 Yes. 180 00:08:15,640 --> 00:08:19,120 And we say this every single episode. 181 00:08:19,120 --> 00:08:28,440 But the Bible was written for everyone, but it wasn't written to us here in 2024, listening 182 00:08:28,440 --> 00:08:31,280 to each other talk about a podcast. 183 00:08:31,280 --> 00:08:32,280 Hallelujah. 184 00:08:32,280 --> 00:08:39,440 And as Christians, we have a hard time like recognizing that in so many ways. 185 00:08:39,440 --> 00:08:45,800 We kind of make the Bible fit our vision of church in 2024. 186 00:08:45,800 --> 00:08:51,840 So like you go to church, you start with a couple songs, you have your coffee in hand, 187 00:08:51,840 --> 00:08:56,960 you get into the message, you hear some announcements somewhere in there, you sing another song, 188 00:08:56,960 --> 00:08:57,960 do a little communion. 189 00:08:57,960 --> 00:09:01,160 Maybe it's in a little cup and the little bread tastes like styrofoam. 190 00:09:01,160 --> 00:09:03,560 Oh, why can't we have real bread? 191 00:09:03,560 --> 00:09:04,560 Yeah. 192 00:09:04,560 --> 00:09:05,560 You say a prayer and then you're done. 193 00:09:05,560 --> 00:09:06,560 Yep. 194 00:09:06,560 --> 00:09:08,900 And then you go home. 195 00:09:08,900 --> 00:09:16,700 But that's just not what church was for the immediately post-Christ world. 196 00:09:16,700 --> 00:09:24,040 So it might seem obvious to say that, but it also really needs to be said over and over 197 00:09:24,040 --> 00:09:30,660 because it shapes how we operate today and it shapes how we see the Christian world and 198 00:09:30,660 --> 00:09:36,520 some of the supposed rules that we have had so far. 199 00:09:36,520 --> 00:09:41,280 So one thing to remember is that the church is very new at this time. 200 00:09:41,280 --> 00:09:43,080 Christ had really just died. 201 00:09:43,080 --> 00:09:44,120 So Paul was still alive. 202 00:09:44,120 --> 00:09:45,640 So we're within the same generation. 203 00:09:45,640 --> 00:09:51,120 I don't know what the exact years are, but it was very soon after. 204 00:09:51,120 --> 00:09:54,480 And the church kind of had to build itself. 205 00:09:54,480 --> 00:09:57,800 Like Jesus didn't really leave exact instructions. 206 00:09:57,800 --> 00:09:59,800 It wasn't IKEA. 207 00:09:59,800 --> 00:10:01,800 No, no IKEA. 208 00:10:01,800 --> 00:10:04,320 Although those instructions don't work either. 209 00:10:04,320 --> 00:10:05,480 No, they don't. 210 00:10:05,480 --> 00:10:10,480 And I think we want to think that the way that we've structured our church came directly 211 00:10:10,480 --> 00:10:15,240 from Jesus, but he didn't really talk about it that much. 212 00:10:15,240 --> 00:10:22,240 He was a rabbi in the synagogue and that would have been structured way differently than 213 00:10:22,240 --> 00:10:24,380 the early church was structured. 214 00:10:24,380 --> 00:10:30,800 So the disciples, as they went out and spread Jesus's message, had to really like build 215 00:10:30,800 --> 00:10:34,040 something from nothing in a lot of ways. 216 00:10:34,040 --> 00:10:38,200 So what they did was they pulled a lot of traditions from the synagogue because that's 217 00:10:38,200 --> 00:10:40,200 what they were familiar with. 218 00:10:40,200 --> 00:10:43,720 But then as they, you know, they might have planted a church and then they went to the 219 00:10:43,720 --> 00:10:45,880 next town and they planted a church and whatever. 220 00:10:45,880 --> 00:10:47,880 These were not all Jewish people. 221 00:10:47,880 --> 00:10:52,080 There were also Gentile people and that means non-Jewish people. 222 00:10:52,080 --> 00:10:57,720 I feel like I say churchy terms and I forget that they're churchy terms. 223 00:10:57,720 --> 00:10:59,600 So that means non-Jewish people. 224 00:10:59,600 --> 00:11:02,880 So anyone who wasn't part of the Jewish faith wouldn't have been familiar with like the 225 00:11:02,880 --> 00:11:05,320 synagogue and how that worked. 226 00:11:05,320 --> 00:11:11,520 So the people that would not have been familiar with the synagogue and those rules would have 227 00:11:11,520 --> 00:11:16,340 probably, you know, once the disciples left or whoever came to kind of plant their church, 228 00:11:16,340 --> 00:11:21,720 they would have probably bounced to structures that they were familiar with. 229 00:11:21,720 --> 00:11:27,180 So that would have come from the government, from other like, he calls them affinity groups, 230 00:11:27,180 --> 00:11:29,840 so other religions, things like that. 231 00:11:29,840 --> 00:11:31,120 You go with what you know. 232 00:11:31,120 --> 00:11:32,120 Exactly. 233 00:11:32,120 --> 00:11:35,320 There's nothing wrong with any of those things because they're all still following Jesus's 234 00:11:35,320 --> 00:11:36,600 teachings. 235 00:11:36,600 --> 00:11:38,200 They're all still spreading the gospel. 236 00:11:38,200 --> 00:11:40,960 It's just done in a different way. 237 00:11:40,960 --> 00:11:45,440 But one of the things that tended to be common amongst all these churches was that they met 238 00:11:45,440 --> 00:11:50,000 in homes because the Jewish homes were public spaces. 239 00:11:50,000 --> 00:11:54,160 Like they had, it wasn't like now where like you're not going to invite somebody into your 240 00:11:54,160 --> 00:11:55,160 house. 241 00:11:55,160 --> 00:11:56,160 I feel like I'm picturing Encanto. 242 00:11:56,160 --> 00:11:58,160 Yeah, that's a good one. 243 00:11:58,160 --> 00:12:03,440 Where there's like a big public space, but then everybody has their little rooms. 244 00:12:03,440 --> 00:12:06,320 Yeah, they called it the atrium. 245 00:12:06,320 --> 00:12:12,720 And they said that usually the church would be held in like wealthier members homes, because 246 00:12:12,720 --> 00:12:16,460 they might have had an atrium that would fit like 20 to 30 people. 247 00:12:16,460 --> 00:12:20,760 Because they're probably not having enough money to go buy like a community center. 248 00:12:20,760 --> 00:12:22,700 No, by chance. 249 00:12:22,700 --> 00:12:24,360 Would that even be an option? 250 00:12:24,360 --> 00:12:26,420 Like is there land to build on? 251 00:12:26,420 --> 00:12:28,640 How long does it take to build something? 252 00:12:28,640 --> 00:12:32,440 I don't know what the logic of that is. 253 00:12:32,440 --> 00:12:35,000 So it makes sense for it to be in a home. 254 00:12:35,000 --> 00:12:41,080 But those people, because it was a much smaller group, you know, you're not a church of 10,000 255 00:12:41,080 --> 00:12:42,080 like we have today. 256 00:12:42,080 --> 00:12:43,960 It's 20 or 30 people. 257 00:12:43,960 --> 00:12:48,040 Those people weren't just showing up once a week, singing songs, listening to a sermon 258 00:12:48,040 --> 00:12:49,340 and leaving. 259 00:12:49,340 --> 00:12:51,720 They were living life together. 260 00:12:51,720 --> 00:12:53,040 They were spreading the gospel together. 261 00:12:53,040 --> 00:12:54,680 They all had a role. 262 00:12:54,680 --> 00:12:59,480 I think that's where when we say like the church is not a building, it's the people. 263 00:12:59,480 --> 00:13:01,600 That's really what I focus on. 264 00:13:01,600 --> 00:13:02,600 That's what I envision. 265 00:13:02,600 --> 00:13:04,320 Yeah, with that group of people. 266 00:13:04,320 --> 00:13:08,580 Yeah, and I think that's, that's what they had to be for each other. 267 00:13:08,580 --> 00:13:10,080 Because they were also being persecuted. 268 00:13:10,080 --> 00:13:16,800 So that interestingly, also the term pastor, and I'm not going to try and say it in the 269 00:13:16,800 --> 00:13:19,120 Greek because it sounds inappropriate. 270 00:13:19,120 --> 00:13:23,720 I wish you wouldn't. 271 00:13:23,720 --> 00:13:29,120 It only appears a couple places in the New Testament, which is so interesting to me because 272 00:13:29,120 --> 00:13:34,260 that's the title that we so significantly banned women from. 273 00:13:34,260 --> 00:13:36,060 And it's only used twice. 274 00:13:36,060 --> 00:13:39,720 It's used once in Acts and once in Peter. 275 00:13:39,720 --> 00:13:41,760 And acts like the body spray. 276 00:13:41,760 --> 00:13:44,400 Yes, that's what I was referencing. 277 00:13:44,400 --> 00:13:45,400 It smells really terrible. 278 00:13:45,400 --> 00:13:47,720 It smells like a middle school boy in here. 279 00:13:47,720 --> 00:13:48,720 Yeah. 280 00:13:48,720 --> 00:13:52,400 So I think it's really funny that that we've taken that term that's only used a couple 281 00:13:52,400 --> 00:13:58,000 times and like said women can't have this biblically. 282 00:13:58,000 --> 00:14:00,040 But it's hardly ever used. 283 00:14:00,040 --> 00:14:04,040 And the author of this book also says that if you showed up to an early church and asked 284 00:14:04,040 --> 00:14:09,760 to meet like the pastor or the leader, they wouldn't know what you were talking about. 285 00:14:09,760 --> 00:14:13,620 Because they just didn't structure their churches in a pyramid like that. 286 00:14:13,620 --> 00:14:17,760 There wasn't like one person at the top and everybody else was below them like so many 287 00:14:17,760 --> 00:14:20,780 of our churches are today. 288 00:14:20,780 --> 00:14:22,420 That just wasn't how it worked. 289 00:14:22,420 --> 00:14:26,940 So they wouldn't even know who to direct you to as their leader. 290 00:14:26,940 --> 00:14:32,600 But there were three main leadership roles and I'll kind of go into each of them and 291 00:14:32,600 --> 00:14:37,000 then I'll let Bri share hers and then I'll talk about Phoebe afterwards. 292 00:14:37,000 --> 00:14:38,000 Phoebe. 293 00:14:38,000 --> 00:14:39,000 Yeah. 294 00:14:39,000 --> 00:14:43,320 So the first one has to do with Phoebe, who we love. 295 00:14:43,320 --> 00:14:44,320 We love. 296 00:14:44,320 --> 00:14:47,360 Also, I just think of friends and I love her and friends too. 297 00:14:47,360 --> 00:14:49,000 She's pretty great. 298 00:14:49,000 --> 00:14:55,080 So the again, if I mispronounce this, guys, it's not my fault. 299 00:14:55,080 --> 00:14:59,160 I think people are going to come after you with pitchforks and feather and tar. 300 00:14:59,160 --> 00:15:00,160 Wow. 301 00:15:00,160 --> 00:15:01,160 It's really dramatic. 302 00:15:01,160 --> 00:15:04,160 Kill the beast. 303 00:15:04,160 --> 00:15:06,120 Great. 304 00:15:06,120 --> 00:15:09,760 So the first term is Diakonos. 305 00:15:09,760 --> 00:15:17,040 And based on the translation, there's going to be different ways that that is said. 306 00:15:17,040 --> 00:15:22,120 But the kind of general definitions can be servant, deacon, or ministry provider. 307 00:15:22,120 --> 00:15:27,800 The author of this book really likes the term ministry provider because it kind of encompasses 308 00:15:27,800 --> 00:15:30,960 a little bit more than servant. 309 00:15:30,960 --> 00:15:35,240 You know, when you think servant, you might think below everybody else. 310 00:15:35,240 --> 00:15:36,240 Right. 311 00:15:36,240 --> 00:15:37,240 Just doing the grunt work. 312 00:15:37,240 --> 00:15:38,240 Right. 313 00:15:38,240 --> 00:15:41,480 But this term kind of meant like living in service to the church. 314 00:15:41,480 --> 00:15:42,480 Okay. 315 00:15:42,480 --> 00:15:47,400 So you spent your life serving, spreading God's word, things like that. 316 00:15:47,400 --> 00:15:50,720 So it's not just like making the coffee in the morning. 317 00:15:50,720 --> 00:15:51,720 You know, it's not being the grater. 318 00:15:51,720 --> 00:15:55,300 Not that those things aren't critically important to the church. 319 00:15:55,300 --> 00:15:57,140 That's just not what this meant. 320 00:15:57,140 --> 00:16:02,800 So the concept behind it was essentially the greatest among you becomes the least. 321 00:16:02,800 --> 00:16:04,440 So we see that with Jesus. 322 00:16:04,440 --> 00:16:05,440 The least of these. 323 00:16:05,440 --> 00:16:06,440 Yeah. 324 00:16:06,440 --> 00:16:08,720 So we see that many times throughout the Bible. 325 00:16:08,720 --> 00:16:11,700 And they would have a service oriented heart of leadership. 326 00:16:11,700 --> 00:16:15,120 And they would kind of set the tone for leadership in the early church. 327 00:16:15,120 --> 00:16:17,240 These people that would go by this title. 328 00:16:17,240 --> 00:16:21,680 So this term was also used in the broader Roman world. 329 00:16:21,680 --> 00:16:26,000 And I always like to look at the history of things like look outside of the Bible too. 330 00:16:26,000 --> 00:16:28,000 You know who else likes that? 331 00:16:28,000 --> 00:16:31,000 Our good friend Beth. 332 00:16:31,000 --> 00:16:32,000 She does love that. 333 00:16:32,000 --> 00:16:33,000 She's a historian. 334 00:16:33,000 --> 00:16:37,960 We need to count how many times we mentioned this woman. 335 00:16:37,960 --> 00:16:45,320 If you hear the word Beth, take a drink of water with me. 336 00:16:45,320 --> 00:16:50,400 So in the Roman world is used as well, not necessarily to mean servants, but again to 337 00:16:50,400 --> 00:16:55,120 mean someone in a position of leadership who was serving the broader community. 338 00:16:55,120 --> 00:16:58,480 Oftentimes it also meant suffering and hardship. 339 00:16:58,480 --> 00:17:01,280 And you know, I mean, a lot of the disciples were crucified. 340 00:17:01,280 --> 00:17:02,900 So there you go. 341 00:17:02,900 --> 00:17:08,440 So Phoebe, who we will talk about later, is the only person named as a Diakonos in 342 00:17:08,440 --> 00:17:09,440 the Bible. 343 00:17:09,440 --> 00:17:10,440 A woman. 344 00:17:10,440 --> 00:17:13,440 That got so dramatic. 345 00:17:13,440 --> 00:17:17,560 It was a great book. 346 00:17:17,560 --> 00:17:23,720 I actually, sidebar, I remember when we first started going to that church when we were 347 00:17:23,720 --> 00:17:26,880 in like middle school, high school times. 348 00:17:26,880 --> 00:17:30,520 And there were female deacons, but they called them deaconesses. 349 00:17:30,520 --> 00:17:31,840 Mom was just telling me about this. 350 00:17:31,840 --> 00:17:35,640 Yeah, and I thought that was totally bizarre. 351 00:17:35,640 --> 00:17:39,880 Just coming from the world where we came from, which was like very small church for so long. 352 00:17:39,880 --> 00:17:42,400 I was like, there's women who can do that? 353 00:17:42,400 --> 00:17:43,400 What? 354 00:17:43,400 --> 00:17:46,560 Okay, but did you know that they were really in charge of like setting up? 355 00:17:46,560 --> 00:17:47,560 That's what mom said. 356 00:17:47,560 --> 00:17:51,040 It's just like, we're going to give you a fancy title, but only because like we need 357 00:17:51,040 --> 00:17:57,720 someone to make the coffee and set up the sanctuary and do the grunt work. 358 00:17:57,720 --> 00:17:59,180 We'll come back to deaconess. 359 00:17:59,180 --> 00:18:01,200 That comes in with Phoebe. 360 00:18:01,200 --> 00:18:02,200 Precursor. 361 00:18:02,200 --> 00:18:03,200 We're foreshadowing. 362 00:18:03,200 --> 00:18:07,080 Yeah, that's what I meant. 363 00:18:07,080 --> 00:18:12,400 So that's in Romans 16.1 is where Paul calls Phoebe a deaconess. 364 00:18:12,400 --> 00:18:14,560 And we'll talk a little bit more about her later. 365 00:18:14,560 --> 00:18:16,440 But she's the only named person. 366 00:18:16,440 --> 00:18:23,320 Now, this term is used a lot throughout the New Testament, throughout Paul's letters specifically, 367 00:18:23,320 --> 00:18:26,880 but it's not in reference to someone. 368 00:18:26,880 --> 00:18:30,680 She's the only person that gets named. 369 00:18:30,680 --> 00:18:36,080 So this person probably would have served under the leadership of the next category, 370 00:18:36,080 --> 00:18:43,880 the overseers or kind of the person who usually owned the house of the house church. 371 00:18:43,880 --> 00:18:51,520 So when Paul used the term deaconess for Phoebe, he's using it while commending her as a leader 372 00:18:51,520 --> 00:18:53,080 from Corinth. 373 00:18:53,080 --> 00:18:57,600 So again, we'll get into why later, but this implies that she would have been a key leader 374 00:18:57,600 --> 00:18:59,400 in her church community. 375 00:18:59,400 --> 00:19:00,640 So not. 376 00:19:00,640 --> 00:19:02,380 Someone who was just serving. 377 00:19:02,380 --> 00:19:05,200 She was a titled leader in her church community. 378 00:19:05,200 --> 00:19:06,920 She was an important leader. 379 00:19:06,920 --> 00:19:12,400 So in 1 Timothy 3, Paul talks directly to deacons and he references what their character 380 00:19:12,400 --> 00:19:13,740 is supposed to be. 381 00:19:13,740 --> 00:19:19,520 So this section is thrown against women a lot. 382 00:19:19,520 --> 00:19:22,960 Paul, he gets a bad rap. 383 00:19:22,960 --> 00:19:26,800 I honestly, I was not a fan of Paul for the longest time. 384 00:19:26,800 --> 00:19:29,080 Well Paul, if you weren't so confusing. 385 00:19:29,080 --> 00:19:36,160 Paul is a little confusing, but I feel like he's just been so misinterpreted. 386 00:19:36,160 --> 00:19:40,440 Because as you really read it, so much of what we've been told about what he said is 387 00:19:40,440 --> 00:19:43,000 very clearly not what he said. 388 00:19:43,000 --> 00:19:44,000 Right. 389 00:19:44,000 --> 00:19:48,760 So anyway, in 1 Timothy, he is writing to Timothy's church. 390 00:19:48,760 --> 00:19:53,440 And in verse 11 is where he specifically talks to women. 391 00:19:53,440 --> 00:19:58,520 It's sandwiched between multiple verses talking to deacons, which implies that he's also talking 392 00:19:58,520 --> 00:20:01,480 to women in this same position. 393 00:20:01,480 --> 00:20:06,840 And yes, women would have been more rare in these positions just because again, they're 394 00:20:06,840 --> 00:20:08,880 living in the patriarchal society. 395 00:20:08,880 --> 00:20:09,880 What? 396 00:20:09,880 --> 00:20:13,900 Her, um, oh, her beauty brand. 397 00:20:13,900 --> 00:20:17,360 So it would have been more rare to have a woman in a leadership position because they 398 00:20:17,360 --> 00:20:19,400 were living in a patriarchal society. 399 00:20:19,400 --> 00:20:21,660 As are we. 400 00:20:21,660 --> 00:20:25,320 So talking to the men specifically makes sense. 401 00:20:25,320 --> 00:20:30,160 But then he does also reference women in the same section. 402 00:20:30,160 --> 00:20:33,080 So we got to stop taking stuff out of context here, people. 403 00:20:33,080 --> 00:20:34,080 Yeah, people. 404 00:20:34,080 --> 00:20:35,080 People. 405 00:20:35,080 --> 00:20:42,360 So yeah, so this term was not necessarily a super formal office like it is today. 406 00:20:42,360 --> 00:20:47,080 Like we have deacons at church that lead, you know, certain things in the church. 407 00:20:47,080 --> 00:20:52,600 It wouldn't have been that at the time, but it would have been a title that someone would 408 00:20:52,600 --> 00:20:54,320 have gone by. 409 00:20:54,320 --> 00:21:00,200 So it would have been, he calls it, the author calls it a ministry provider, kind of like 410 00:21:00,200 --> 00:21:03,060 you would say a medical provider. 411 00:21:03,060 --> 00:21:04,860 So like someone with expertise. 412 00:21:04,860 --> 00:21:06,200 I'm a medical provider. 413 00:21:06,200 --> 00:21:07,200 You are. 414 00:21:07,200 --> 00:21:10,360 Which frightens me a great deal. 415 00:21:10,360 --> 00:21:11,360 Sorry. 416 00:21:11,360 --> 00:21:12,360 All right. 417 00:21:12,360 --> 00:21:16,200 So then the next term is episkopos. 418 00:21:16,200 --> 00:21:18,200 What your mouth? 419 00:21:18,200 --> 00:21:20,200 You can't say that. 420 00:21:20,200 --> 00:21:21,200 I'm sorry. 421 00:21:21,200 --> 00:21:22,200 Sorry, grandma. 422 00:21:22,200 --> 00:21:29,480 And that would have been the overseer or manager. 423 00:21:29,480 --> 00:21:32,000 It's kind of the best translation. 424 00:21:32,000 --> 00:21:35,080 So this would have been one of the most formal titles for leadership that they had. 425 00:21:35,080 --> 00:21:38,880 Again, they didn't have a lot, but this would have been that. 426 00:21:38,880 --> 00:21:43,720 And in the broader context, because we love that, this also could have been a title used 427 00:21:43,720 --> 00:21:51,720 for like a temple manager or a civic official, like someone who is kind of guarding the institution 428 00:21:51,720 --> 00:21:53,640 or the community. 429 00:21:53,640 --> 00:21:56,200 So somebody pretty in charge. 430 00:21:56,200 --> 00:22:00,840 This term was not used as much as the last one that I won't say because you keep making 431 00:22:00,840 --> 00:22:03,460 fun of me for how I say it. 432 00:22:03,460 --> 00:22:09,140 He does mention it in Philippians, like the two terms together, but he doesn't necessarily 433 00:22:09,140 --> 00:22:11,440 say how they differ. 434 00:22:11,440 --> 00:22:16,260 But it does seem like it would be more of like an overseer. 435 00:22:16,260 --> 00:22:19,760 So someone that was in charge, right? 436 00:22:19,760 --> 00:22:24,560 And usually this would have been the person that owned the home that the house church 437 00:22:24,560 --> 00:22:26,380 was in. 438 00:22:26,380 --> 00:22:32,760 So the person or couple, as sometimes it happens in the Bible, that owned the house because 439 00:22:32,760 --> 00:22:38,560 they were already running a household, they had the experience to handle finances, to 440 00:22:38,560 --> 00:22:43,800 handle people, to handle conflict and things like that. 441 00:22:43,800 --> 00:22:44,800 Or just their space. 442 00:22:44,800 --> 00:22:45,800 Yeah. 443 00:22:45,800 --> 00:22:46,800 Yeah. 444 00:22:46,800 --> 00:22:50,320 So it would have been the natural choice for this person to be. 445 00:22:50,320 --> 00:22:55,880 Not saying that would have always been the case, but it likely would have been the case. 446 00:22:55,880 --> 00:23:01,280 There are no named people with this title that I won't say because you keep making fun 447 00:23:01,280 --> 00:23:02,280 of me. 448 00:23:02,280 --> 00:23:05,280 What is it called? 449 00:23:05,280 --> 00:23:06,280 Episcopal. 450 00:23:06,280 --> 00:23:07,280 Thank you. 451 00:23:07,280 --> 00:23:08,280 You're welcome. 452 00:23:08,280 --> 00:23:17,400 So no men or women are specifically named with this title. 453 00:23:17,400 --> 00:23:21,080 Again, I'm going to say, I'm going to just one more time. 454 00:23:21,080 --> 00:23:23,440 No men and no women. 455 00:23:23,440 --> 00:23:24,440 Nobody has the title. 456 00:23:24,440 --> 00:23:27,160 Nobody got it. 457 00:23:27,160 --> 00:23:30,960 No boys, no girls. 458 00:23:30,960 --> 00:23:31,960 That's singing number two. 459 00:23:31,960 --> 00:23:32,960 No hard speed. 460 00:23:32,960 --> 00:23:33,960 We can't cut that out. 461 00:23:33,960 --> 00:23:36,960 No, that's staying in. 462 00:23:36,960 --> 00:23:39,040 I have to let you sing at least. 463 00:23:39,040 --> 00:23:44,360 So the argument that this particular role is only for men, and this would be the one 464 00:23:44,360 --> 00:23:49,760 that people in leadership are really going to want to hold on to, is because it, again 465 00:23:49,760 --> 00:23:51,040 in 1st Timothy. 466 00:23:51,040 --> 00:23:59,500 So 1st Timothy 3, Paul says that overseers must be the husband of one wife. 467 00:23:59,500 --> 00:24:05,640 So that very specifically, some people think, precludes women from being able to hold this 468 00:24:05,640 --> 00:24:13,360 role, which then we convert today as kind of the pastor or the leader of the church. 469 00:24:13,360 --> 00:24:18,720 But what the author says, and I think this is so interesting and so good, he says the 470 00:24:18,720 --> 00:24:26,960 comment on one wife is less about men specifically leading than about fidelity in marriage. 471 00:24:26,960 --> 00:24:35,200 So he's talking to men in a broader picture because men would have been most of the overseers. 472 00:24:35,200 --> 00:24:39,880 Because again, they're in a patriarchal society, this is very normal. 473 00:24:39,880 --> 00:24:42,760 Men would have primarily been in leadership positions at this time. 474 00:24:42,760 --> 00:24:46,340 So he's talking to the broader picture. 475 00:24:46,340 --> 00:24:50,880 But he's not saying, okay, but women, if you're in leadership, you can be the wives of however 476 00:24:50,880 --> 00:24:53,200 many men you feel like. 477 00:24:53,200 --> 00:24:54,920 Is that what we're saying? 478 00:24:54,920 --> 00:24:55,920 Really? 479 00:24:55,920 --> 00:24:58,320 So he makes a great comparison in the book. 480 00:24:58,320 --> 00:25:04,120 And if you have the opportunity to read this book, it is very academic, but it is fantastic. 481 00:25:04,120 --> 00:25:05,840 There's also an audible version. 482 00:25:05,840 --> 00:25:08,400 So I'm like listening and reading it. 483 00:25:08,400 --> 00:25:17,800 So it's that it's so helpful because if you're an audio learner, audacious, that can't be 484 00:25:17,800 --> 00:25:18,800 it. 485 00:25:18,800 --> 00:25:24,040 Let's go with if you're a visual learner, you have the ability to read. 486 00:25:24,040 --> 00:25:29,820 But if you learn better by listening, then you can kind of do both things or plus also, 487 00:25:29,820 --> 00:25:33,280 if you're illiterate, that does help. 488 00:25:33,280 --> 00:25:41,800 But anyway, he makes great comparison where he says that if a golf course had a sign up 489 00:25:41,800 --> 00:25:47,360 that said golfers must have well kept facial hair. 490 00:25:47,360 --> 00:25:49,560 Well I wouldn't be allowed to golf. 491 00:25:49,560 --> 00:25:52,040 Your facial hair is a mess. 492 00:25:52,040 --> 00:25:53,320 Unruly. 493 00:25:53,320 --> 00:25:59,500 That doesn't necessarily mean that women can't golf here because stereotypically women may 494 00:25:59,500 --> 00:26:01,860 not have facial hair. 495 00:26:01,860 --> 00:26:08,000 It means that if you have facial hair, then it has to be well kept. 496 00:26:08,000 --> 00:26:11,520 Those who don't have facial hair would not have the same expectation. 497 00:26:11,520 --> 00:26:16,440 So if you are a man, have one wife. 498 00:26:16,440 --> 00:26:19,840 Don't have perhaps seven. 499 00:26:19,840 --> 00:26:21,640 Well but that would have been common at the time too. 500 00:26:21,640 --> 00:26:22,640 That's true. 501 00:26:22,640 --> 00:26:23,640 Polygamy was very common then. 502 00:26:23,640 --> 00:26:26,480 Essentially, the leader of the home would have been the natural choice to lead their 503 00:26:26,480 --> 00:26:32,800 congregation and there are several instances where that while women weren't given that 504 00:26:32,800 --> 00:26:40,440 title specifically by Paul, like they weren't named with that title, there are several instances 505 00:26:40,440 --> 00:26:43,520 where women are talked about as having a house church. 506 00:26:43,520 --> 00:26:44,520 Right. 507 00:26:44,520 --> 00:26:45,520 Including Phoebe. 508 00:26:45,520 --> 00:26:53,920 It would have been legally allowed in the Roman culture for women to be householders. 509 00:26:53,920 --> 00:26:59,880 And the book says that as many as 25% of householders in certain areas may have been women. 510 00:26:59,880 --> 00:27:02,360 Lydia was also a female householder. 511 00:27:02,360 --> 00:27:05,620 Shout out to Lydia. 512 00:27:05,620 --> 00:27:10,640 So Lydia was a female householder, a named female householder who influenced her entire 513 00:27:10,640 --> 00:27:12,920 house to get baptized and acts. 514 00:27:12,920 --> 00:27:18,760 And then her home became a hub for the Philippian church. 515 00:27:18,760 --> 00:27:32,080 So while it's not stated that she was the Episcopal, I'm so sorry Lydia, it is implied 516 00:27:32,080 --> 00:27:35,080 that she probably would have been the overseer of that church. 517 00:27:35,080 --> 00:27:40,120 Alright, and then the last one before we go, maybe have dinner or finish recording, would 518 00:27:40,120 --> 00:27:41,120 be in Presbiteros. 519 00:27:41,120 --> 00:27:42,120 That's not a Presbiteros. 520 00:27:42,120 --> 00:27:43,120 See, that one doesn't sound bad. 521 00:27:43,120 --> 00:27:44,120 It just sounds like a pizza place. 522 00:27:44,120 --> 00:27:54,080 And that would have been like a senior elder, or I'm sorry, a senior leader or an elder. 523 00:27:54,080 --> 00:27:58,480 So we have elders in churches now, and I feel like a lot of times churches either have deacons 524 00:27:58,480 --> 00:27:59,480 or elders. 525 00:27:59,480 --> 00:28:02,440 I don't think you see as many with both. 526 00:28:02,440 --> 00:28:09,680 Or the elder board is like more, not hidden but not talked about, but maybe they have 527 00:28:09,680 --> 00:28:10,680 it. 528 00:28:10,680 --> 00:28:18,240 So one of the churches that we were at recently for a very long time, they had an elder board. 529 00:28:18,240 --> 00:28:23,020 And something that really bothered me is that no one really knew who they were. 530 00:28:23,020 --> 00:28:28,120 Even the pastors, if you asked for like, hey, I was wondering if I could contact one of 531 00:28:28,120 --> 00:28:33,480 the elders or something like that, they literally didn't know who they were. 532 00:28:33,480 --> 00:28:35,280 It was very strange, very secretive. 533 00:28:35,280 --> 00:28:40,640 You have these people who are in charge of making decisions for a church that you don't 534 00:28:40,640 --> 00:28:41,640 know. 535 00:28:41,640 --> 00:28:45,440 Well, you'd think it would be like elected or something along those lines. 536 00:28:45,440 --> 00:28:46,440 I don't know. 537 00:28:46,440 --> 00:28:47,440 It was very strange. 538 00:28:47,440 --> 00:28:49,440 Anyway, that was an offshoot. 539 00:28:49,440 --> 00:28:52,720 So this term is not really outlined in detail in the Bible. 540 00:28:52,720 --> 00:28:56,820 It's kind of one of the most vague terms that Paul has. 541 00:28:56,820 --> 00:29:01,240 Part of that is because it wouldn't have really been a job description like the other two 542 00:29:01,240 --> 00:29:03,280 were to some degree. 543 00:29:03,280 --> 00:29:10,840 It was more just like, like the term elder, like it would have been an older, wiser member 544 00:29:10,840 --> 00:29:17,000 of the community who maybe the church or the people of the church turned to for advice. 545 00:29:17,000 --> 00:29:18,640 Yeah, which makes sense. 546 00:29:18,640 --> 00:29:22,520 Like, hey, this person has more knowledge, experience. 547 00:29:22,520 --> 00:29:26,280 I'm going to go to them for guidance. 548 00:29:26,280 --> 00:29:32,720 So since this wasn't an official title, like elder Brianna. 549 00:29:32,720 --> 00:29:33,720 That's me. 550 00:29:33,720 --> 00:29:34,720 Elder. 551 00:29:34,720 --> 00:29:38,440 I've been meaning to tell you. 552 00:29:38,440 --> 00:29:40,920 Hey, you're older. 553 00:29:40,920 --> 00:29:44,080 Yeah, but it bothers you more. 554 00:29:44,080 --> 00:29:45,080 It does. 555 00:29:45,080 --> 00:29:46,080 I'm sad. 556 00:29:46,080 --> 00:29:47,080 I'm sorry. 557 00:29:47,080 --> 00:29:51,000 But because it wasn't an official title, the author of this book specifically says this 558 00:29:51,000 --> 00:29:55,160 is like the goofiest one to say that women can't hold. 559 00:29:55,160 --> 00:29:57,120 I love the word goofy. 560 00:29:57,120 --> 00:29:58,120 So goofy. 561 00:29:58,120 --> 00:30:03,200 I was going to say a different thing that I thought I shouldn't. 562 00:30:03,200 --> 00:30:09,280 And there were, this was, it was a formal thing and it was still important to some degree. 563 00:30:09,280 --> 00:30:13,920 Like there is one point where Paul says, I believe it's in Titus. 564 00:30:13,920 --> 00:30:22,120 So Titus 1.5 where Paul tells Titus to appoint elders in his church that follow certain criteria. 565 00:30:22,120 --> 00:30:27,500 It still wasn't like, like a specific leadership title. 566 00:30:27,500 --> 00:30:35,120 What the author says as well is that if you, if you were known by another title, like if 567 00:30:35,120 --> 00:30:41,720 you were the overseer or if you were a deacon, you could also be an elder. 568 00:30:41,720 --> 00:30:44,920 You just wouldn't go by the title elder. 569 00:30:44,920 --> 00:30:45,920 More? 570 00:30:45,920 --> 00:30:49,020 You could be more. 571 00:30:49,020 --> 00:30:51,920 Do you think at some point in this podcast we'll stop doing that? 572 00:30:51,920 --> 00:30:54,920 We'll run out of more. 573 00:30:54,920 --> 00:31:00,280 No, I use that on our Instagram all the time. 574 00:31:00,280 --> 00:31:01,680 Shout out to our Instagram. 575 00:31:01,680 --> 00:31:02,680 Follow us over there. 576 00:31:02,680 --> 00:31:03,680 Yeah. 577 00:31:03,680 --> 00:31:05,160 I posted on Facebook the other day. 578 00:31:05,160 --> 00:31:07,680 I shared about episode three. 579 00:31:07,680 --> 00:31:15,800 I think I was like, we are hilarious, but also we are more. 580 00:31:15,800 --> 00:31:18,440 On Instagram we are, we are more dot podcast. 581 00:31:18,440 --> 00:31:20,480 And I think Facebook is the same. 582 00:31:20,480 --> 00:31:21,520 Not sure. 583 00:31:21,520 --> 00:31:22,880 I need to get the Facebook better. 584 00:31:22,880 --> 00:31:28,120 I need to figure out how to tick tack like those youths do. 585 00:31:28,120 --> 00:31:30,240 We can hit the whoa and whatnot. 586 00:31:30,240 --> 00:31:31,240 The what? 587 00:31:31,240 --> 00:31:32,240 You haven't heard that? 588 00:31:32,240 --> 00:31:33,240 No. 589 00:31:33,240 --> 00:31:34,240 I don't know what it is. 590 00:31:34,240 --> 00:31:35,240 It's not good. 591 00:31:35,240 --> 00:31:38,240 I think it's a dance move. 592 00:31:38,240 --> 00:31:41,240 We're cursing in Shenzi. 593 00:31:41,240 --> 00:31:43,640 I'm sorry. 594 00:31:43,640 --> 00:31:46,240 Anyway. 595 00:31:46,240 --> 00:31:50,920 So there's nowhere in the New Testament that says that women cannot be elders. 596 00:31:50,920 --> 00:31:52,360 It's not said. 597 00:31:52,360 --> 00:31:53,960 It's not mentioned. 598 00:31:53,960 --> 00:31:55,280 There's nothing about it. 599 00:31:55,280 --> 00:31:58,080 We have made this garbage up. 600 00:31:58,080 --> 00:32:03,000 Garbage. 601 00:32:03,000 --> 00:32:07,120 And again, most elders probably would have been men, but that's cultural. 602 00:32:07,120 --> 00:32:09,680 That's normal for the time. 603 00:32:09,680 --> 00:32:14,220 And if you look at several of the women that Paul talks about in the Bible and you research 604 00:32:14,220 --> 00:32:21,040 them and you find out who they were, like Phoebe or Priscilla or countless other ones, 605 00:32:21,040 --> 00:32:26,320 they clearly would have qualified as elders, even though again, no one is specifically 606 00:32:26,320 --> 00:32:27,320 named. 607 00:32:27,320 --> 00:32:33,520 Well, I think we mentioned this back a couple episodes ago, but women, like when you think 608 00:32:33,520 --> 00:32:42,640 like Christian women 2024, you do think someone like very mild mannered, someone in a maxi 609 00:32:42,640 --> 00:32:48,600 skirt, like just like very like level headed, calm, quiet, whatever. 610 00:32:48,600 --> 00:32:51,480 But that's not what the women in the Bible really were. 611 00:32:51,480 --> 00:32:57,120 Not to say that there's anything wrong with that, but like jail stab someone and her name 612 00:32:57,120 --> 00:32:58,800 is written down in the Bible. 613 00:32:58,800 --> 00:33:02,860 She tent pegged him. 614 00:33:02,860 --> 00:33:08,720 You know who I think about for the stereotype actually is the the Duggar mom. 615 00:33:08,720 --> 00:33:10,880 Oh, that's what comes to my head. 616 00:33:10,880 --> 00:33:11,880 Yeah. 617 00:33:11,880 --> 00:33:12,880 All right. 618 00:33:12,880 --> 00:33:17,000 So to round this out and pass it over brief because I'm tired of talking. 619 00:33:17,000 --> 00:33:20,800 One of the things that I think is so impactful that's said in this book, again, if you have 620 00:33:20,800 --> 00:33:24,720 the opportunity to read it, highly, highly recommend. 621 00:33:24,720 --> 00:33:31,000 He talks about imagine if God gave us another Deborah today. 622 00:33:31,000 --> 00:33:32,000 Big Debra. 623 00:33:32,000 --> 00:33:33,000 Yes. 624 00:33:33,000 --> 00:33:34,000 Deborah! 625 00:33:34,000 --> 00:33:35,000 We love Debra. 626 00:33:35,000 --> 00:33:36,000 I got really loud. 627 00:33:36,000 --> 00:33:39,080 You got so loud, it didn't know what to do with you. 628 00:33:39,080 --> 00:33:42,620 So imagine if God gave us another Deborah. 629 00:33:42,620 --> 00:33:48,880 Would we tell her that she couldn't be an elder or a deacon or an overseer? 630 00:33:48,880 --> 00:33:52,480 And if we did, what would be our reasoning? 631 00:33:52,480 --> 00:33:54,660 Because God put her in a position of leadership. 632 00:33:54,660 --> 00:33:56,780 So what would be our reasoning? 633 00:33:56,780 --> 00:34:02,380 And you can't even say, well, she led when no men would lead because there were two men 634 00:34:02,380 --> 00:34:04,320 alongside her. 635 00:34:04,320 --> 00:34:07,960 She just happened to be the one that the Bible talked about. 636 00:34:07,960 --> 00:34:08,960 Right. 637 00:34:08,960 --> 00:34:10,320 The one who did the biggest thing. 638 00:34:10,320 --> 00:34:12,540 Who is named after a bumblebee. 639 00:34:12,540 --> 00:34:16,760 She was more. 640 00:34:16,760 --> 00:34:22,600 And if we did tell her this, if we said to her she couldn't lead, what would we be depriving 641 00:34:22,600 --> 00:34:24,520 the church of? 642 00:34:24,520 --> 00:34:25,520 The world of. 643 00:34:25,520 --> 00:34:29,100 And what are we currently depriving the church and the world of? 644 00:34:29,100 --> 00:34:34,320 Because I got to tell you, I think God has given us plenty of Debra's and we've told 645 00:34:34,320 --> 00:34:35,320 them to shut up. 646 00:34:35,320 --> 00:34:38,960 Do you want to get a hammer so we can nail something? 647 00:34:38,960 --> 00:34:41,960 Oh, no, don't say that. 648 00:34:41,960 --> 00:34:44,560 I was thinking of nailing the coffee. 649 00:34:44,560 --> 00:34:45,560 I'm going to keep that in. 650 00:34:45,560 --> 00:34:46,560 No, don't. 651 00:34:46,560 --> 00:34:47,560 I was misunderstood. 652 00:34:47,560 --> 00:34:48,560 Alright, now it's your turn. 653 00:34:48,560 --> 00:34:54,320 I can stop talking for a while. 654 00:34:54,320 --> 00:35:03,480 So when I was researching this topic, I found an article from someone named Angela Harrington 655 00:35:03,480 --> 00:35:11,920 and she has a book that is kind of about recovering your faith and recovering from church hurts 656 00:35:11,920 --> 00:35:13,600 so that's very interesting. 657 00:35:13,600 --> 00:35:18,120 I haven't looked into it at all, but maybe you can. 658 00:35:18,120 --> 00:35:22,360 But when I first started thinking about this, I'm like, actions speak so much louder than 659 00:35:22,360 --> 00:35:25,560 words and we say that all the time. 660 00:35:25,560 --> 00:35:33,080 But when you look back on the actions of Jesus throughout the Bible, like the Bible has changed 661 00:35:33,080 --> 00:35:37,280 through translations and all of that, but I feel like the actions of Jesus have mostly 662 00:35:37,280 --> 00:35:38,880 stayed the same. 663 00:35:38,880 --> 00:35:45,880 Jesus never discriminated, talked down to women. 664 00:35:45,880 --> 00:35:48,420 He never told them that they couldn't preach. 665 00:35:48,420 --> 00:35:51,220 He never told them that they were less than. 666 00:35:51,220 --> 00:35:52,220 He pulled them in. 667 00:35:52,220 --> 00:35:54,040 He brought them into his community. 668 00:35:54,040 --> 00:35:57,640 He said, follow me, just like he did for the men too. 669 00:35:57,640 --> 00:36:01,460 There were plenty of women that followed him along. 670 00:36:01,460 --> 00:36:06,440 So we should probably be modeling our lives based off of Jesus more than anything else. 671 00:36:06,440 --> 00:36:11,760 Groundbreaking, I'm looking very deep into your eyes right now. 672 00:36:11,760 --> 00:36:25,160 So diving into 1st Timothy, 1st Timothy 2 verse 11 in the KJV because that's, you know, 673 00:36:25,160 --> 00:36:26,520 why does my mind just go? 674 00:36:26,520 --> 00:36:29,000 I don't know, we recorded earlier. 675 00:36:29,000 --> 00:36:30,000 I don't know. 676 00:36:30,000 --> 00:36:36,760 1st Timothy 2 verse 11 says, let women learn in silence with all submission. 677 00:36:36,760 --> 00:36:43,080 And I do not permit women to teach or to have any authority over a man, but to be in silence. 678 00:36:43,080 --> 00:36:49,160 So in referring to that verse, many scholars believe that Paul was referring to specific 679 00:36:49,160 --> 00:36:53,080 women in Timothy's church, not to all women in general. 680 00:36:53,080 --> 00:36:58,760 And going back to what you said before, like probably the people were coming from different 681 00:36:58,760 --> 00:37:02,680 backgrounds and different traditions. 682 00:37:02,680 --> 00:37:06,840 So they may have been causing a ruckus or whatever it may have been. 683 00:37:06,840 --> 00:37:10,480 So maybe they were distracting people from actually learning the word of God. 684 00:37:10,480 --> 00:37:13,520 So he's saying, hey, chill out, maybe. 685 00:37:13,520 --> 00:37:20,040 Well one of the things that I've researched before says that in that passage, the women 686 00:37:20,040 --> 00:37:26,820 of this particular church, because they hadn't been allowed to learn any of this before, 687 00:37:26,820 --> 00:37:30,800 they were like constantly asking, well, what does that mean? 688 00:37:30,800 --> 00:37:33,040 Well, you know, like loudly. 689 00:37:33,040 --> 00:37:37,240 And all of a sudden they had the privilege probably to speak. 690 00:37:37,240 --> 00:37:40,680 And so they were disrupting the church as a whole. 691 00:37:40,680 --> 00:37:43,840 And obviously like that's not conducive for anybody else. 692 00:37:43,840 --> 00:37:49,640 So they were essentially told like, hey, we want you to learn, which was revolutionary, 693 00:37:49,640 --> 00:37:54,760 but don't do it where you're going to cause a problem for everybody else is trying to 694 00:37:54,760 --> 00:37:55,760 learn. 695 00:37:55,760 --> 00:38:02,160 Paul says women shouldn't usurp authority over a man, which usurp means to steal away 696 00:38:02,160 --> 00:38:06,040 or to take away something that's not rightfully yours. 697 00:38:06,040 --> 00:38:09,320 So think overthrowing of government. 698 00:38:09,320 --> 00:38:15,520 So pretty much also anyone probably in that situation shouldn't take the authority from 699 00:38:15,520 --> 00:38:21,880 someone else, don't steal someone else's thunder, essentially, is what he's saying. 700 00:38:21,880 --> 00:38:29,120 So many scholars believe that Paul's words were situational, not like written to all 701 00:38:29,120 --> 00:38:32,440 of us everywhere here in 2024. 702 00:38:32,440 --> 00:38:33,440 Is it 2024? 703 00:38:33,440 --> 00:38:36,580 Literally all day today, I thought it was 2023. 704 00:38:36,580 --> 00:38:39,160 Like I was writing down 2023. 705 00:38:39,160 --> 00:38:43,280 When I was working today, I kept trying to write down 2025. 706 00:38:43,280 --> 00:38:44,280 I don't know. 707 00:38:44,280 --> 00:38:45,280 I'm living in the future over here. 708 00:38:45,280 --> 00:38:46,280 I'm living in the past. 709 00:38:46,280 --> 00:38:49,500 Where are we? 710 00:38:49,500 --> 00:38:53,680 So she goes on to say in her article that if we choose to believe that the Bible always 711 00:38:53,680 --> 00:38:59,440 provides universal statements, then we need to be consistent and apply the same logic 712 00:38:59,440 --> 00:39:05,760 to the rest of the passage, which continues to say women shouldn't braid their hair where 713 00:39:05,760 --> 00:39:10,480 gold pearls or anything expensive and that women are to be silent. 714 00:39:10,480 --> 00:39:16,920 So that means no female greeters, no worship leaders that are women, choir members, no 715 00:39:16,920 --> 00:39:21,920 women reading scripture, no women making announcements, no women teaching Sunday school. 716 00:39:21,920 --> 00:39:25,680 The list goes on and on and on and the church would fall apart. 717 00:39:25,680 --> 00:39:26,680 Yeah. 718 00:39:26,680 --> 00:39:29,640 Can you imagine how quickly everything would crumble? 719 00:39:29,640 --> 00:39:30,640 Yeah. 720 00:39:30,640 --> 00:39:35,320 She goes on to say like there's so many passages in the Bible that refer to everyone and all 721 00:39:35,320 --> 00:39:36,320 and each of you. 722 00:39:36,320 --> 00:39:42,600 And over time, through translations, we've taken out each of you and everyone and all 723 00:39:42,600 --> 00:39:46,600 of you and replaced it with absolutes. 724 00:39:46,600 --> 00:39:47,600 Yeah. 725 00:39:47,600 --> 00:39:48,600 Yeah. 726 00:39:48,600 --> 00:39:53,920 So she pretty much says like God's word never changes, but man's translation of God's word 727 00:39:53,920 --> 00:39:57,000 definitely does and has throughout time. 728 00:39:57,000 --> 00:40:00,900 And then she goes on to talk about like examples of female leaders in the Bible. 729 00:40:00,900 --> 00:40:05,920 So you are going to talk about Phoebe later on, but there's Deborah who we've talked 730 00:40:05,920 --> 00:40:06,920 about before. 731 00:40:06,920 --> 00:40:07,920 Big Deb. 732 00:40:07,920 --> 00:40:08,920 Big Deb. 733 00:40:08,920 --> 00:40:14,440 She was an Old Testament judge, which means that she led Israel before there was a king 734 00:40:14,440 --> 00:40:15,600 to help them lead. 735 00:40:15,600 --> 00:40:20,080 But she was leading Israel, which is amazing. 736 00:40:20,080 --> 00:40:24,000 And Anna or Anna, I'm not quite sure how she wants to be pronounced. 737 00:40:24,000 --> 00:40:25,000 She wasn't in frozen. 738 00:40:25,000 --> 00:40:26,000 I don't know. 739 00:40:26,000 --> 00:40:31,520 Unless she was a prophet who dedicated her life to praying and praising and teaching 740 00:40:31,520 --> 00:40:32,520 in the temple. 741 00:40:32,520 --> 00:40:37,840 She was also one of the first people to meet Jesus as an infant and recognize and proclaim 742 00:40:37,840 --> 00:40:38,840 his divinity. 743 00:40:38,840 --> 00:40:40,840 Now I read into her story. 744 00:40:40,840 --> 00:40:48,080 She was like married for seven years and then she was a widow for like 84 years. 745 00:40:48,080 --> 00:40:51,280 So Anna when she met Jesus was like a hundred something. 746 00:40:51,280 --> 00:40:52,280 Geez. 747 00:40:52,280 --> 00:40:53,280 Yeah. 748 00:40:53,280 --> 00:40:54,280 She's ancient. 749 00:40:54,280 --> 00:40:59,600 And Holda, who's an Old Testament prophet who is trusted, who is a trusted source of 750 00:40:59,600 --> 00:41:02,080 interpreting, understanding scripture. 751 00:41:02,080 --> 00:41:05,640 And she was even sought out by the king of Israel to teach the men about the meaning 752 00:41:05,640 --> 00:41:08,020 of prophecies from God. 753 00:41:08,020 --> 00:41:12,980 So there's so many examples of like strong, powerful women in the Bible, but we're teaching 754 00:41:12,980 --> 00:41:16,360 women now that that's not their place. 755 00:41:16,360 --> 00:41:17,360 And it doesn't make sense. 756 00:41:17,360 --> 00:41:19,480 It doesn't add up. 757 00:41:19,480 --> 00:41:22,400 The first preachers of the gospel were women. 758 00:41:22,400 --> 00:41:28,560 Well, and I think to bounce off of that into my notes, which I have to pull back up, you 759 00:41:28,560 --> 00:41:36,320 know, Paul in that verse sounds kind of rough as he says, you know, I don't permit women 760 00:41:36,320 --> 00:41:38,440 to have authority over men or whatever. 761 00:41:38,440 --> 00:41:39,780 Shut right up. 762 00:41:39,780 --> 00:41:46,120 But the interesting thing is as we're going into Phoebe, clearly Paul did allow women 763 00:41:46,120 --> 00:41:49,320 to teach men because of Phoebe. 764 00:41:49,320 --> 00:41:50,320 Well that's it. 765 00:41:50,320 --> 00:41:56,440 Like if you read a singular verse and build your whole faith off of that singular verse, 766 00:41:56,440 --> 00:41:58,040 you're not going to have a very full faith. 767 00:41:58,040 --> 00:42:01,280 You have to look into the history and the verse before and the verse after and the whole 768 00:42:01,280 --> 00:42:03,480 chapter like read more. 769 00:42:03,480 --> 00:42:04,480 Right. 770 00:42:04,480 --> 00:42:07,640 So you have to look at who Paul is as a person. 771 00:42:07,640 --> 00:42:12,120 When Paul writes lists of, and we skip over these a lot when we read the Bible because 772 00:42:12,120 --> 00:42:13,120 it's just lists of names. 773 00:42:13,120 --> 00:42:15,120 That probably you can't pronounce them. 774 00:42:15,120 --> 00:42:16,880 That's very true. 775 00:42:16,880 --> 00:42:24,240 But Paul talks about all kinds of women that he respected, that he allowed to teach, that 776 00:42:24,240 --> 00:42:28,520 he worked alongside, that he calls co-workers and sisters. 777 00:42:28,520 --> 00:42:32,920 And that one statement doesn't erase all of those. 778 00:42:32,920 --> 00:42:37,720 So you have to make that make sense within the broader context. 779 00:42:37,720 --> 00:42:43,440 So it makes sense that he was talking to a specific group in Timothy's church. 780 00:42:43,440 --> 00:42:49,320 Well, and these letters were very specifically to one church. 781 00:42:49,320 --> 00:42:56,740 So that begs the question, if this is really a sin for women to speak or lead or teach, 782 00:42:56,740 --> 00:42:59,760 why did Paul only tell Timothy's church? 783 00:42:59,760 --> 00:43:01,840 None of the other churches would have had this information. 784 00:43:01,840 --> 00:43:07,120 He would have written the same thing in every single book that he wrote, which is a lot. 785 00:43:07,120 --> 00:43:08,860 Because Jesus didn't say it. 786 00:43:08,860 --> 00:43:15,160 So Paul would have had to have that revelation from God and then spread it out amongst the 787 00:43:15,160 --> 00:43:19,100 people, which is something that he did in a lot of his letters. 788 00:43:19,100 --> 00:43:21,240 But that's something that's only said once. 789 00:43:21,240 --> 00:43:22,240 Right. 790 00:43:22,240 --> 00:43:25,520 So anyway, so Phoebe, we love Phoebe. 791 00:43:25,520 --> 00:43:29,760 Again, she's the only named deacon in the Bible. 792 00:43:29,760 --> 00:43:30,760 Diakonos. 793 00:43:30,760 --> 00:43:32,520 Diakonos. 794 00:43:32,520 --> 00:43:36,000 And her story is so cool. 795 00:43:36,000 --> 00:43:41,120 So she's kind of a, I don't want to say a footnote because she's so important, but it's 796 00:43:41,120 --> 00:43:42,960 really a brief mention. 797 00:43:42,960 --> 00:43:48,440 So you really have to dig into historical context to understand who Phoebe was and what 798 00:43:48,440 --> 00:43:50,400 her story looked like. 799 00:43:50,400 --> 00:43:54,440 So she was the person that carried Paul's letter to the Roman churches. 800 00:43:54,440 --> 00:43:59,880 So she took the book of Romans, like one of the most important, most impactful books of 801 00:43:59,880 --> 00:44:01,240 the Bible. 802 00:44:01,240 --> 00:44:08,520 And she took it from Paul, who was in prison and walked it all the way to Rome. 803 00:44:08,520 --> 00:44:09,520 Can you imagine? 804 00:44:09,520 --> 00:44:10,520 No. 805 00:44:10,520 --> 00:44:14,900 Do you remember that walk that we did in Disney just hurrying up trying to get on the list 806 00:44:14,900 --> 00:44:16,280 for the Star Wars ride? 807 00:44:16,280 --> 00:44:17,280 Yes. 808 00:44:17,280 --> 00:44:20,760 Can you imagine that for days and days and days and days and days and days and days? 809 00:44:20,760 --> 00:44:21,760 No. 810 00:44:21,760 --> 00:44:23,240 Like, I mean, weeks probably. 811 00:44:23,240 --> 00:44:24,240 I don't know how long it took. 812 00:44:24,240 --> 00:44:25,240 I would shrivel up and die. 813 00:44:25,240 --> 00:44:26,720 They didn't have Birkenstocks back then. 814 00:44:26,720 --> 00:44:27,720 They did not. 815 00:44:27,720 --> 00:44:30,800 I don't know what they had, sandals, but bad ones. 816 00:44:30,800 --> 00:44:32,880 Bare feet. 817 00:44:32,880 --> 00:44:37,680 So she was commissioned by Paul to take this letter, right? 818 00:44:37,680 --> 00:44:40,880 And again, we think of things in our modern day context. 819 00:44:40,880 --> 00:44:44,360 Like, okay, she's a letter carrier. 820 00:44:44,360 --> 00:44:47,800 And our letter carriers today, they're not going to open the mail. 821 00:44:47,800 --> 00:44:51,680 They don't really do anything with it other than take it out of your mailbox. 822 00:44:51,680 --> 00:44:54,200 They go and rain and sleep and snow. 823 00:44:54,200 --> 00:44:55,200 They do. 824 00:44:55,200 --> 00:44:56,200 Thanks goodness. 825 00:44:56,200 --> 00:45:04,760 So they don't really have a lot of role in what the message of your letter is, or if 826 00:45:04,760 --> 00:45:08,100 it necessarily gets to its destination. 827 00:45:08,100 --> 00:45:11,760 One person picks it up, they hand it to the next person, who hands it to the next person. 828 00:45:11,760 --> 00:45:14,520 Ideally, no one intercepts it. 829 00:45:14,520 --> 00:45:15,920 But that wasn't the case at the time. 830 00:45:15,920 --> 00:45:19,040 There was no formal mail system. 831 00:45:19,040 --> 00:45:25,020 So if you wanted to send a letter, you had to send somebody that you trusted completely 832 00:45:25,020 --> 00:45:30,860 to get it there, to not change the words inside of it. 833 00:45:30,860 --> 00:45:33,480 And also someone who was actually willing to do that. 834 00:45:33,480 --> 00:45:34,480 Yeah, for sure. 835 00:45:34,480 --> 00:45:38,160 Someone who knew you and loved you enough to do that. 836 00:45:38,160 --> 00:45:40,160 Sounds like a bad time. 837 00:45:40,160 --> 00:45:44,460 And also this person, particularly with Paul's letters, this wouldn't have necessarily been 838 00:45:44,460 --> 00:45:48,440 every letter, but particularly with Paul's letters, this would have been someone that 839 00:45:48,440 --> 00:45:52,880 delivered the letter, but I don't mean just handed it off. 840 00:45:52,880 --> 00:45:58,520 I mean delivered as in, gave a speech. 841 00:45:58,520 --> 00:46:00,120 Not performed, but... 842 00:46:00,120 --> 00:46:03,880 A theatrical presentation of the Book of Romans. 843 00:46:03,880 --> 00:46:07,320 She would have read it to them, she would have interpreted it for them, because she 844 00:46:07,320 --> 00:46:12,960 talked to Paul, and Paul would have probably said, okay, I want you to use an inflection 845 00:46:12,960 --> 00:46:13,960 here. 846 00:46:13,960 --> 00:46:16,880 I want you to make this point really important. 847 00:46:16,880 --> 00:46:21,600 Or diving deep into everything and being like, this is what this means. 848 00:46:21,600 --> 00:46:23,400 This is what this means. 849 00:46:23,400 --> 00:46:27,400 And she would have had to take it to every house church in Rome, because remember, there 850 00:46:27,400 --> 00:46:30,120 wasn't one centralized church. 851 00:46:30,120 --> 00:46:31,640 And they didn't have a Xerox machine. 852 00:46:31,640 --> 00:46:32,640 They did not. 853 00:46:32,640 --> 00:46:34,520 Do we have Xerox machines? 854 00:46:34,520 --> 00:46:35,520 That's an old reference. 855 00:46:35,520 --> 00:46:36,520 They don't have a copier. 856 00:46:36,520 --> 00:46:37,520 They don't have a copier. 857 00:46:37,520 --> 00:46:40,520 I don't even have a printer, Brianna. 858 00:46:40,520 --> 00:46:42,520 They don't have a staples. 859 00:46:42,520 --> 00:46:44,640 Like, get like 17 copies of it. 860 00:46:44,640 --> 00:46:46,720 There was one copy, probably. 861 00:46:46,720 --> 00:46:47,720 Yeah. 862 00:46:47,720 --> 00:46:52,280 And she walked it all the way to Rome, and then she walked it to every single church, 863 00:46:52,280 --> 00:46:54,760 and then performed it for every single church. 864 00:46:54,760 --> 00:47:00,680 So Phoebe was the first preacher of Romans. 865 00:47:00,680 --> 00:47:04,880 And before I get these people that are going to tell me, well, she was just sharing her 866 00:47:04,880 --> 00:47:10,120 story, and that's okay if a woman gets up and shares her story, but she can't preach. 867 00:47:10,120 --> 00:47:14,400 And if you don't understand what I'm saying, that's really something that people say. 868 00:47:14,400 --> 00:47:18,360 It's fine if women get up on stage in church and share their stories, but they're not allowed 869 00:47:18,360 --> 00:47:23,160 to preach, which is insane because it's the same thing. 870 00:47:23,160 --> 00:47:24,160 Right. 871 00:47:24,160 --> 00:47:29,920 But she was interpreting and sharing Paul's words. 872 00:47:29,920 --> 00:47:30,920 The gospel. 873 00:47:30,920 --> 00:47:31,920 Yeah. 874 00:47:31,920 --> 00:47:36,840 And how is that any different from a pastor today interpreting and sharing Paul's words? 875 00:47:36,840 --> 00:47:37,840 There's no difference. 876 00:47:37,840 --> 00:47:39,200 There is no difference. 877 00:47:39,200 --> 00:47:41,280 Phoebe was doing the same thing. 878 00:47:41,280 --> 00:47:42,980 She was a preacher. 879 00:47:42,980 --> 00:47:51,320 She was a preacher who was endorsed and sent by Paul himself to share one of his most important 880 00:47:51,320 --> 00:47:55,720 letters with one of the biggest churches, biggest groups of churches that there would 881 00:47:55,720 --> 00:47:56,720 have been. 882 00:47:56,720 --> 00:48:00,800 So yeah, there's a lot to this story, and I would love to do honestly a whole episode 883 00:48:00,800 --> 00:48:03,260 on Phoebe because I think she's amazing. 884 00:48:03,260 --> 00:48:08,800 We believe that Jesus, that Paul, that the Bible... 885 00:48:08,800 --> 00:48:11,320 Stop it. 886 00:48:11,320 --> 00:48:20,000 That everything in the Bible very clearly points to women not only being allowed to 887 00:48:20,000 --> 00:48:25,800 teach and preach, but encouraged to teach and preach, encouraged to lead their churches 888 00:48:25,800 --> 00:48:29,040 on the same level that men are leading their churches. 889 00:48:29,040 --> 00:48:38,400 And without that, I think the American church specifically is losing out on so much incredible 890 00:48:38,400 --> 00:48:42,480 wisdom, on a connection with God. 891 00:48:42,480 --> 00:48:45,480 Women are the future. 892 00:48:45,480 --> 00:48:47,160 Time number three. 893 00:48:47,160 --> 00:48:48,160 Teach them well. 894 00:48:48,160 --> 00:48:49,160 Let them lead the way. 895 00:48:49,160 --> 00:48:50,160 I'm going to cut all of that out. 896 00:48:50,160 --> 00:48:52,600 I'm going to leave the one. 897 00:48:52,600 --> 00:48:54,200 Thanks for listening to episode five. 898 00:48:54,200 --> 00:48:57,640 Thank you for spending a little bit of your day with us. 899 00:48:57,640 --> 00:48:59,480 Enjoy following us on Instagram. 900 00:48:59,480 --> 00:49:00,480 I'm pretty proud of this one. 901 00:49:00,480 --> 00:49:01,480 I think this is a good one. 902 00:49:01,480 --> 00:49:02,480 Yeah, this was really good. 903 00:49:02,480 --> 00:49:08,280 Yeah, follow us on Facebook and Instagram and we will see you guys again in a couple 904 00:49:08,280 --> 00:49:09,280 of weeks. 905 00:49:09,280 --> 00:49:11,800 Except we won't see you because this is a podcast. 906 00:49:11,800 --> 00:49:14,800 You'll hear us again in a couple of weeks. 907 00:49:14,800 --> 00:49:33,080 Talk to ya later. 908 00:49:33,080 --> 00:49:35,140 you