WEBVTT

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This file was generated by Descript 

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Sam: Hello, and welcome
back to the 10,000 things.

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My name is Sam.

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Joe: I'm Joe low.

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Ali: And I'm Ali Catramados.

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Sam: Today, a quote.

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Our Western culture.

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And many of the relationship
experts in it have issued us

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faulty maps and improper tools.

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We've been told that the love we need
is a buried treasure, hidden in the

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heart of a special intimate partner.

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Once we find that partner, the love we
crave should flow elixir, like filling

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our empty spaces and healing our pain.

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Joe: Um, that's from You Are the One
You've Been Waiting For: Applying Internal

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Family Systems to Intimate Relationships.

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By Richard Swartz, PhD.

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I'm told that's books, doing the
rounds of the psych cologists circles.

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Sam: Oh, sounds very credible.

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I

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Joe: read a few pages on and
didn't really like the book, but a.

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Oh, it gets into like, you've got
multiple selves and then you've

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got a higher self and it's all fun.

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Like maybe I'll go back to it, but.

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As soon as I read that, I
just send it to you guys.

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Cause I was like, well, here it
is again, this is Alonda buttons.

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Like let's uproot 200 years of
romanticism from our brains.

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And when I read that from
Alon a few years ago, I.

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I sort of took it in, but.

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Love that he wrote.

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Uh, just that one point
that he's made repeatedly.

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Yeah.

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He.

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Which is that romanticism?

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Isn't a natural human state.

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It's a set of ideas.

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From a bunch of poets.

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Yeah, an artist couple of hundred
years ago, as a response to modernity.

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Right.

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We because of Hollywood.

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And all the other culture.

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I think most of us assume
that romantic love.

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Is a real and be natural

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Sam: objective and natural.

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And the ultimate human experience.

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Joe: I took all of that for granted.

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And then immediately eight years
of bruising I was going to say

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singularity, but that's not the
right use of that word, but it is of.

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Being single.

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Yeah.

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Have disabused me, I think of
this idea of romantic love and

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suddenly feel a certain clarity.

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But I might be about to
fall in love tomorrow.

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I don't know.

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Sam: Well, you were, you were
waxing lyrical earlier about

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feeling like you're getting.

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more and more comfortable and
living in reality more and more.

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Joe: I am very enticed by re concrete
reality just right at the moment.

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Yes.

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Yeah.

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And I'm not sure where romantic love.

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Certainly flowing elixir like
and fixing all my problems.

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Fits into that, but that's certainly
how I saw it at the age of 20.

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What about you, Ali?

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Ali: So, yeah, I very much had that.

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You know, socialized to believe that
that sort of romantic love was the be

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all and end all and to find a partner.

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And that, that would sort
of, yeah, that was the goal.

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Right.

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And.

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my view on that.

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Has shifted.

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And it's not that the extreme where
I don't think romance doesn't exist

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because I think I have experienced it.

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And what I think is romance is I
think very it's personal to me.

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And I think everybody has their
own experience of what they

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think is romantic or romance.

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And I think those are very real, but,
but at the same time, I don't believe

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that those will fix all my problems.

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I like similarly to you, I've
been single on and off the

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last few years and I very much.

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had sort of a, yeah.

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Uh, discussion early this week
with my psychologist about this.

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And we're sort of talking about my
shifting view on what relationships are.

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And I think.

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It's.

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my view of romance.

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And a romantic relationship is that yeah,
you can have those romantic experiences,

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but they are not the defining goal of
having a relationship and they are not

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exclusive to being in a relationship.

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So I can have those romantic experiences,
but it doesn't necessarily have to

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be in sort of the typical monogamous.

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this is not a thing to
polyamory or anything like that.

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I'm not talking about that.

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I'm just saying, as in, you
can have romance in your

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life, it doesn't have to be.

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with another person, you can romanticize
things within your own life for yourself.

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In also in conjunction with other
people and that can make your life,

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those are the fixes, but it's not that
you can't put all of that in pressure

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or expectation that one person will
fulfill all of those needs for you.

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Sam: Yeah, that's right.

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It's very hard to

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Ali: fulfill those yourself and
anybody coming into that is a bonus.

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Yeah.

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That's my point.

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Sam: Yeah, you're right.

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Look, it's unfair on both.

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Parties to have these expectation.

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And you can imagine a scenario where
two people have this same expectation.

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That's not going to work.

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No.

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I was waiting for the
other to do the thing

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Ali: yeah.

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To fix, to fix everything.

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Yeah, you can't like nobody can.

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Sam: That's right.

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And then, and then now imagine a
scenario where one person has this

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belief and the other is more grounded in
reality and knows what it really takes.

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That relationship stands a chance, but

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Joe: let me, let me pose a couple
of questions to both of you.

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First yeah.

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Is romantic love real or isn't an
invention of the romantics 200 years ago.

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Oh, okay.

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They just describing something that's
always existed since the Dawn of time.

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Um, or did they invent something
that never really existed?

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Ali: I think it always existed.

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I really do.

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I think so.

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Joe: It's a naturally
occurring phenomenon.

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You don't buy the cultural.

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Thesis like humans, just this happens to
humans probably happens to other animals.

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It's

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Ali: probably, yeah, like a biological
mechanism for like reproduction, which

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people would call lust, but those feelings
are still very real feelings that you

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can, you know, In, in that context, it's a

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Joe: bit of a trick of nature, but that's.

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The loss side of it.

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So one aspect.

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It doesn't mean.

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That's what takes it from last.

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Beyond an into love.

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Yeah.

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Take

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Ali: care.

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Joe: So, no, no, but experientially.

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Ali: Yeah.

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So.

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Um, being cared for and feeling cared for.

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I think, you know, You know, again,
that probably serves a biological

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mechanism for Keeping the species
alive and that, you know, you've got,

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uh, The P your, your mate, who, you
know, or the father of your children.

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Yeah.

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It breaks a leg.

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Take love would be, you know, showing
care for that person, that person

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feeling cared for and special.

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That's a, still a romantic.

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Thing that you could do for someone.

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It's

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Joe: the same substance as the love
we have for our children or our.

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Parents had for us, it's the same stuff.

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What's different though.

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Isn't it?

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Uh, to me, experientially.

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It's very different.

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I think if I have to, my children.

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Sam: So I think what's
the definition of romance.

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I think we had a stab at least a
couple of shows ago and I listened

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back and I was like, she's on
flailing to actually define it.

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Joe: Romantic love.

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Yeah.

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That's why

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Sam: I'm talking about like walks on the
beach by the Moonlight and you've had.

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Yeah, we've all actually
had those with friends.

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Hmm.

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And that's been special
and, but he chose right.

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There is something that's set aside for.

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Um, you know, if you had a resection.

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It's someone of the opposite sex.

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And if you're homosexual someone
of the same sex and it's this

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feeling is how I define it.

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It's this feeling of.

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Us against the world.

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It's just the two of us.

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There's a destiny between us.

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It's a team.

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And this all sounds great.

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The rest of the world.

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Joe: Doesn't stop.

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It doesn't matter.

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Sam: Yes.

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We're safe.

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Yes.

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Ali: Safety there's care.

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There's.

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Yeah, like there's a shared
goal or shared purpose.

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Sam: Yes.

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Yeah.

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Ali: Yeah.

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And yeah, there's a, some sort
of connection between I think,

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and it is really special.

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I think we've always,
probably had those feelings.

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And that, yeah, maybe a couple of hundred
years ago, people were able to really

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articulate them in a way that was.

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Well received by the masses.

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And so, yes, but.

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It doesn't mean that.

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The reason they were probably well
received was because they resonated

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because people experienced them.

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Joe: But guess what alarm.

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I want to say though.

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And maybe this quote is.

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We take these feelings and then
we make these huge decisions,

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like marrying someone yes.

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And committing for the rest
of our lives with them.

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And.

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Uh, happily ever after.

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I mean, I've only dated
pretty much hardcore.

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Left-wing feminists.

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Um, but there's still some Disney
princess shit going on in there, man.

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Yeah.

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Yeah.

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And it's still conditioning
in those women.

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At one, some kind of
Disney princess scenarios,

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Ali: social, like.

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If you look at sort of the socialization
and marriage and how, you know, with.

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Basically the transfer of property
and then, and how that all sort of

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evolved and that, that sort of mechanism
worked on it's for social cohesion.

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So

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Sam: you do by the cultural thesis.

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But you also have a biological thesis.

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Yes.

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That's fine.

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I think, yeah.

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I'm

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Ali: happy to sit with both.

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I think that, yeah.

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The reasons for marriage may very
well be more practical rather than

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romantic, but that's not to say
that you can't have those romantic.

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Sam: In agreement.

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And romantic in the extreme.

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So two men are exchanging property.

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Ali: Yeah.

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Sam: And, uh, making an Alliance.

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Uh, business or monitored.

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And that was marriage

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Joe: before romantic.

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Before modern romance marriage
was that it wasn't love.

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Love, matches.

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Sam: You remember when, like,

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Ali: although within your, your
class you could potentially have had.

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Love matches.

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If there was no sort of reason
for that you had, you hadn't

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Joe: go against the other
reasons to get married.

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Sure.

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Sam: It was not a necessary
or sufficient condition.

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Marriage.

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Yes.

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And

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Ali: it's, I don't think it
doesn't, it didn't happen.

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Sam: And in many families.

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Any girl who was talking along
those lines would have been.

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Quite stiffly.

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Re-educate.

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That's where you get all the tragedies,

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Joe: right?

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Like, Jane Austin or whatever it is.

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Yeah.

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It

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Ali: wasn't appropriate for you.

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It was a part of your
social circle or whatever.

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I've been

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Joe: incredibly romantic in my time.

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So the other question.

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I have for you guys is assuming that
romantic love is a real phenomenon

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and not just a sort of brain disease.

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That's mean.

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The name that we picked up.

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Yeah.

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And run with for 200 years.

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At least in Western culture.

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Sure.

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I'm assuming that it's real,
it's a real phenomenon.

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It's sort of naturally occurring.

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It's lost.

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And then it goes beyond lost
into this connected state where

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we're safe from the whole world.

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The whole world fades into the
background and it's just us in our

00:09:58.300 --> 00:09:59.860
private universe has crowded house.

00:10:00.250 --> 00:10:01.270
Special destiny.

00:10:01.720 --> 00:10:01.930
Yeah.

00:10:01.990 --> 00:10:03.910
Assuming all of that does.

00:10:04.080 --> 00:10:06.720
Romantic love resolve anything?

00:10:06.780 --> 00:10:06.960
No.

00:10:07.140 --> 00:10:08.280
For the individual?

00:10:08.340 --> 00:10:09.090
No, no.

00:10:09.360 --> 00:10:10.290
In fact it closes.

00:10:11.640 --> 00:10:11.910
Sam: Yeah,

00:10:12.000 --> 00:10:17.760
Joe: what I've always chased in this
realm is some kind of resolution

00:10:17.760 --> 00:10:20.760
that's always felt just out of reach.

00:10:20.790 --> 00:10:21.180
Yes.

00:10:22.050 --> 00:10:25.530
Sam: That's the illusion receding
from your grasp as you reach for it.

00:10:26.190 --> 00:10:29.430
Joe: Like we talked in an earlier episode
about looking for a magical vagina.

00:10:29.460 --> 00:10:29.790
Yes.

00:10:30.210 --> 00:10:31.050
And I'll be your friend

00:10:31.050 --> 00:10:31.560
Sam: said there's no.

00:10:31.890 --> 00:10:32.610
Magical vagina.

00:10:33.900 --> 00:10:34.290
Yes.

00:10:34.500 --> 00:10:34.680
Yeah.

00:10:35.430 --> 00:10:37.380
It's like that person is so right.

00:10:37.980 --> 00:10:38.430
Yeah.

00:10:38.970 --> 00:10:39.300
So.

00:10:40.470 --> 00:10:43.500
Joe: I think the reason I get, so
hard-lined about this is because it's

00:10:43.500 --> 00:10:45.570
caused me more group grief than this.

00:10:46.050 --> 00:10:48.630
Whether it's phenomenon or an
idea, or both it's caused me

00:10:48.660 --> 00:10:50.010
more grief than anything else.

00:10:50.190 --> 00:10:50.430
Smell

00:10:50.460 --> 00:10:51.300
Sam: it it's maladaptive.

00:10:51.510 --> 00:10:52.140
It's not useful.

00:10:52.470 --> 00:10:52.740
Me.

00:10:52.740 --> 00:10:53.130
Yeah.

00:10:53.190 --> 00:10:53.640
It could be,

00:10:53.640 --> 00:10:57.960
Ali: but then similarly to the,
the argument you could make is

00:10:57.960 --> 00:11:01.230
that it gives some people purpose.

00:11:01.290 --> 00:11:05.160
Um, and, and there is an argument that
that is not necessarily healthy, that

00:11:05.400 --> 00:11:07.290
you make the locus of your purpose.

00:11:07.320 --> 00:11:07.470
Yes.

00:11:07.590 --> 00:11:08.460
Channel to yourself.

00:11:08.790 --> 00:11:12.006
However There are people
who are very much done that.

00:11:12.006 --> 00:11:12.216
Yeah.

00:11:12.426 --> 00:11:12.696
And.

00:11:12.756 --> 00:11:15.126
Would say that they're
happy and content with that.

00:11:15.126 --> 00:11:18.066
And is that experience not
valid because they've had.

00:11:18.456 --> 00:11:20.496
Loving and fulfilling life and purpose.

00:11:20.916 --> 00:11:23.856
With this person, because this
other person has given them purpose.

00:11:24.096 --> 00:11:27.336
And if you look at some older
couples and stuff, Yeah.

00:11:27.636 --> 00:11:28.896
Partner passes away.

00:11:29.076 --> 00:11:30.516
They will often pass away.

00:11:31.056 --> 00:11:35.466
You know, not long after, because their
daily purpose and that's, I mean, if you

00:11:35.466 --> 00:11:39.237
think of like, um, uh, Victor Frankel and
like, yeah, one of your, you know, you

00:11:39.237 --> 00:11:41.307
have to have a purpose and whether, yeah.

00:11:41.547 --> 00:11:44.487
I mean, is it healthy to
have it in another person?

00:11:45.117 --> 00:11:47.667
Practically, maybe not
because people can die.

00:11:47.697 --> 00:11:48.867
People can change their mind.

00:11:48.897 --> 00:11:49.227
People.

00:11:49.587 --> 00:11:52.407
You know, imperfect and could let
you down or for a variety of reasons

00:11:52.677 --> 00:11:57.503
that is a risk, but is it, is it a
calculated risk that a lot of people

00:11:57.503 --> 00:12:00.353
are willing to take because it
actually is providing that fulfillment.

00:12:00.743 --> 00:12:04.073
Joe: I don't think the whole idea of
romantic love is waning in the culture.

00:12:04.103 --> 00:12:04.853
No, not at all.

00:12:05.453 --> 00:12:05.753
Yeah.

00:12:05.873 --> 00:12:06.323
It's going

00:12:06.353 --> 00:12:06.803
Sam: strong.

00:12:07.313 --> 00:12:09.824
It's like all these people that
are freaking out that, The trans

00:12:09.824 --> 00:12:12.524
ideologies somehow carried the day.

00:12:12.524 --> 00:12:14.804
And that heterosexuality is
like this endangered species.

00:12:14.804 --> 00:12:15.764
It's like, good God.

00:12:15.764 --> 00:12:18.851
There is so much support for,
Gender is constantly being ratified

00:12:18.911 --> 00:12:20.891
everywhere we look heterosexuality is.

00:12:22.631 --> 00:12:25.241
Joe: to log off, log off
and walk down the street.

00:12:25.301 --> 00:12:26.051
Yeah, totally.

00:12:26.561 --> 00:12:30.191
And a lot of things like a lot of
things people get confused about.

00:12:30.191 --> 00:12:33.581
I think so confused what the most
extremely online thing is, has

00:12:33.581 --> 00:12:37.181
got nothing to do with the reality
of absolute mass population.

00:12:37.241 --> 00:12:40.451
Sam: But also just in terms of what's
in the online discourse, there's

00:12:40.451 --> 00:12:43.091
still loads of heteronormative stuff.

00:12:43.241 --> 00:12:45.551
There's still loads of romantic normative.

00:12:45.551 --> 00:12:48.251
Like I think it's still being
held up as the gold standard.

00:12:48.911 --> 00:12:52.541
And so I'm, I'm a fairly
hard line on this one.

00:12:52.734 --> 00:12:54.834
When I say that I I've
experienced romance.

00:12:54.834 --> 00:12:57.084
So in that sense, it's phenomenologically.

00:12:57.084 --> 00:12:57.684
It's real, right?

00:12:57.684 --> 00:12:58.314
Let's say that.

00:12:58.974 --> 00:13:01.764
But I'm with the cultural
construction thing.

00:13:02.197 --> 00:13:05.917
And I think there's some stuff in
the deep past in the genetics that.

00:13:06.667 --> 00:13:07.447
Is real.

00:13:07.537 --> 00:13:08.497
So there's that.

00:13:08.977 --> 00:13:11.287
But I think the, the layer of
construction over the top of it

00:13:11.287 --> 00:13:12.637
and all the movies and all that.

00:13:12.862 --> 00:13:16.282
We can't like, and the number of books
it sells, like we can't underestimate.

00:13:16.732 --> 00:13:19.642
The sheer size of the culture
industry around this idea and

00:13:19.642 --> 00:13:24.322
how that culture industry is
responsible for a lot of people.

00:13:24.772 --> 00:13:27.472
Failing to understand why their
relationships aren't what.

00:13:27.892 --> 00:13:31.792
Joe: Someone sent me a book that's called
you are the one you are looking for.

00:13:31.822 --> 00:13:32.632
Sam: It needs to be written.

00:13:32.722 --> 00:13:33.412
It needs to be read.

00:13:33.592 --> 00:13:35.182
Joe: Yeah, it's a best seller.

00:13:35.242 --> 00:13:35.452
Yeah.

00:13:35.722 --> 00:13:38.812
Like I don't, this is
where I get super confused.

00:13:39.142 --> 00:13:41.932
Yeah, because people always
say have the relationship with

00:13:41.932 --> 00:13:43.102
yourself, but it's like, hang on.

00:13:43.102 --> 00:13:44.032
I've got to create.

00:13:44.152 --> 00:13:45.862
Like three selves to do that.

00:13:45.922 --> 00:13:46.192
Yeah.

00:13:46.192 --> 00:13:48.502
And then I've got to get them
into a relationship with each

00:13:48.502 --> 00:13:49.762
other and there's like, no.

00:13:50.692 --> 00:13:51.832
Sam: Romance with myself.

00:13:51.892 --> 00:13:52.852
Oh, you're overthinking it.

00:13:52.882 --> 00:13:53.332
It's like.

00:13:53.443 --> 00:13:55.693
It's like, oh, I want someone who will.

00:13:55.924 --> 00:13:57.394
You know, let's go down the checklist.

00:13:57.394 --> 00:13:59.974
You know, someone who gets
me, I want someone who.

00:14:00.119 --> 00:14:01.679
Knows what to say when I'm.

00:14:02.939 --> 00:14:03.179
Yeah.

00:14:03.299 --> 00:14:04.199
I want someone who accepts me.

00:14:04.199 --> 00:14:05.519
It's like, you're looking at it.

00:14:05.579 --> 00:14:05.819
Yeah.

00:14:06.269 --> 00:14:07.319
Well, it's, I'm going to face my

00:14:07.319 --> 00:14:08.069
Joe: darkest fears.

00:14:08.609 --> 00:14:08.849
Yeah.

00:14:09.539 --> 00:14:10.079
Well, yeah.

00:14:10.799 --> 00:14:14.579
The other problem is I probably sound
like a grumpy old man on this podcast.

00:14:14.579 --> 00:14:17.669
A lot of the time I'm
incredibly sentimental.

00:14:17.939 --> 00:14:20.669
I remember I saw a couple
in their seventies.

00:14:20.669 --> 00:14:21.389
I must've been.

00:14:21.869 --> 00:14:24.659
Boogie boarding on the same
wave down the surf coast.

00:14:25.139 --> 00:14:26.069
Nearly cried.

00:14:26.159 --> 00:14:26.459
Yeah.

00:14:26.909 --> 00:14:31.469
And then I get into happily ever after
situations and they turn into like

00:14:31.499 --> 00:14:35.099
nightmare situations and then they're
over within a couple of months, but yeah.

00:14:35.369 --> 00:14:39.419
Sometimes for me for a period
of weeks, I suddenly think I'm

00:14:39.449 --> 00:14:41.099
going to be with this woman.

00:14:41.399 --> 00:14:42.419
On the boogie boards.

00:14:42.419 --> 00:14:42.659
Yeah.

00:14:42.959 --> 00:14:46.079
You know, at 75 on the same wave.

00:14:46.319 --> 00:14:46.769
We did it.

00:14:46.829 --> 00:14:47.369
We made it.

00:14:47.909 --> 00:14:50.939
The feeling 30 years together from I'm 44.

00:14:50.939 --> 00:14:52.199
Now the fantasy.

00:14:52.229 --> 00:14:52.769
Yeah, I know.

00:14:52.979 --> 00:14:54.479
And the way of it.

00:14:54.779 --> 00:14:56.909
It's like it implodes, like what to do.

00:14:56.969 --> 00:14:59.279
One of those big buildings get Detroit.

00:14:59.339 --> 00:14:59.399
You.

00:14:59.399 --> 00:15:03.869
You know, like it's like, it's like a
controlled demolition as I watch it is.

00:15:04.829 --> 00:15:06.269
And it's fucking harder.

00:15:06.419 --> 00:15:07.319
44.

00:15:07.319 --> 00:15:08.249
It's like five.

00:15:08.429 --> 00:15:10.469
Your heart's got so much scar tissue.

00:15:10.469 --> 00:15:10.589
It's

00:15:10.619 --> 00:15:10.769
Sam: just.

00:15:11.489 --> 00:15:12.659
But that's 70 year old couple.

00:15:12.659 --> 00:15:14.099
They might've started five years ago.

00:15:14.129 --> 00:15:14.519
You don't know.

00:15:19.019 --> 00:15:19.679
Joe: 50 years.

00:15:20.429 --> 00:15:24.779
Ali: Or however many years they have been
together may not have been wonderful, but

00:15:24.779 --> 00:15:27.269
they're just, as my dad would call it,
they're in a purple patch at the moment.

00:15:28.199 --> 00:15:28.439
Yeah.

00:15:28.529 --> 00:15:32.129
Like, I mean, if I, I look
at my grandma, like, so my

00:15:32.129 --> 00:15:33.599
grandparents, like my grandmother.

00:15:33.929 --> 00:15:35.309
Passed away, like away.

00:15:35.309 --> 00:15:37.259
Not long after my grandfather passed away.

00:15:37.357 --> 00:15:41.077
she really gave up, like after
he died, because her purpose.

00:15:41.617 --> 00:15:42.397
Every day.

00:15:42.727 --> 00:15:44.497
You know, to take care of
him, to do things for her.

00:15:44.497 --> 00:15:46.237
And she did love him in.

00:15:46.717 --> 00:15:49.327
In a way, her hot, hot,
like, yeah, her whole life.

00:15:49.327 --> 00:15:50.917
She was very much in love with him.

00:15:51.247 --> 00:15:52.417
Or the idea of him.

00:15:52.657 --> 00:15:57.517
But it was a very volatile, toxic,
and abusive relationship and stuff

00:15:57.517 --> 00:16:02.257
that she tolerated, which is not, you
know, not healthy, not good, not, but.

00:16:03.127 --> 00:16:03.637
They, yeah.

00:16:03.637 --> 00:16:05.257
So like, did they have a great.

00:16:05.707 --> 00:16:07.267
50 plus years together?

00:16:07.267 --> 00:16:10.597
No, like he wouldn't, you couldn't
say that, but did they have some nice

00:16:10.597 --> 00:16:12.127
moments together over those 50 years?

00:16:12.127 --> 00:16:12.697
Absolutely.

00:16:12.697 --> 00:16:14.617
And you probably, yeah, you
might've got a glimpse of.

00:16:15.457 --> 00:16:15.757
Joe: A good

00:16:15.967 --> 00:16:16.207
Ali: map.

00:16:16.267 --> 00:16:16.687
That's ones.

00:16:16.867 --> 00:16:17.437
That I could have

00:16:17.437 --> 00:16:20.047
Joe: stayed at a state of obsession with.

00:16:20.266 --> 00:16:24.166
And like bad shit happening, like
you describing with the grandparents.

00:16:24.466 --> 00:16:26.596
Yeah, but I think in 2024, we go.

00:16:26.926 --> 00:16:28.636
Well, this is going down about path.

00:16:29.326 --> 00:16:32.866
And it's, it's hard to extract
yourself from a toxic relationship.

00:16:32.896 --> 00:16:36.016
Ask anyone who's been in one
or an abusive relationship.

00:16:36.016 --> 00:16:39.046
It's hard when you start to be
obsessed with your abuse off.

00:16:39.076 --> 00:16:40.276
Ali: Yeah, well, I mean, Walk

00:16:40.276 --> 00:16:41.176
Joe: away, you know,

00:16:41.236 --> 00:16:44.296
Ali: and I think a lot, particularly
with women and looking at like,

00:16:44.326 --> 00:16:47.356
yeah, our grandparents relationships,
or even our parents' relationships

00:16:47.356 --> 00:16:49.606
and what women accepted or.

00:16:49.996 --> 00:16:53.416
You know, in a longterm relationship
are definitely things that are not.

00:16:54.076 --> 00:16:58.576
There are the barriers of like being able
to have property credit card, have a job.

00:16:58.756 --> 00:17:00.706
You know, childcare, all those
things are sort of, those are

00:17:00.976 --> 00:17:02.416
gradually being taken away.

00:17:02.446 --> 00:17:05.446
So you don't have, there's
not the financial dependence

00:17:05.446 --> 00:17:06.676
on being in a partnership.

00:17:06.946 --> 00:17:09.676
So you, it has afforded more choice.

00:17:09.706 --> 00:17:12.196
And so, yeah, we're like, oh, just
because my grandparents had been.

00:17:12.226 --> 00:17:15.466
I gather for all those years, maybe
that relationship doesn't look as.

00:17:16.006 --> 00:17:18.946
They're happy when they're old and
they're, you know, but like that's

00:17:19.006 --> 00:17:19.906
some of the things that, yeah.

00:17:20.146 --> 00:17:23.056
You know, my grandpa mothers have told me
that happened to them in their marriages.

00:17:23.116 --> 00:17:24.466
I'm like, fuck.

00:17:25.516 --> 00:17:28.066
It's really, I would not
want that for myself or.

00:17:28.186 --> 00:17:29.626
That's a fucking crime.

00:17:29.686 --> 00:17:29.866
Yeah.

00:17:31.846 --> 00:17:34.576
Joe: If he wasn't in jail now
he'd be canceled or whatever.

00:17:35.146 --> 00:17:36.226
Ali: Really terrible things.

00:17:36.226 --> 00:17:40.396
And I think, yeah, a lot of women are
sort of not wanting that experience

00:17:40.396 --> 00:17:41.596
for themselves and yeah, the.

00:17:41.720 --> 00:17:44.540
Even though they're the, the
promise of romantic love.

00:17:44.540 --> 00:17:47.090
The reality of that is
not always the case.

00:17:47.390 --> 00:17:47.630
Because I

00:17:47.660 --> 00:17:49.880
Joe: think the flip side
of the romantic love is the

00:17:49.880 --> 00:17:52.490
jealousy possessiveness session.

00:17:52.700 --> 00:17:55.790
Well, which leads to
physical staff that leads to.

00:17:56.840 --> 00:17:58.430
Coercive control stuff.

00:17:58.790 --> 00:18:00.530
Sam: You've let me down.

00:18:00.710 --> 00:18:01.940
And I'm the victim here.

00:18:02.450 --> 00:18:07.490
Is that is, those are the conditions
that make that intimate violence.

00:18:07.790 --> 00:18:13.010
Much more likely and possible because
you have to, at some point you have

00:18:13.010 --> 00:18:17.090
to de-humanize the other, at least
in the moment to be able to do that.

00:18:17.540 --> 00:18:20.030
And you might regret it
immediately afterwards.

00:18:20.720 --> 00:18:22.580
Um, that's what we hear from men.

00:18:23.270 --> 00:18:24.050
That have done this.

00:18:24.860 --> 00:18:27.650
But it started with a feeling
of grievance and victim hood.

00:18:27.710 --> 00:18:29.030
And where does that come from?

00:18:29.030 --> 00:18:30.920
And it might come from it romantic.

00:18:31.490 --> 00:18:35.720
Disillusionment at times and jealousy and
possessiveness and all that normal stuff.

00:18:36.470 --> 00:18:40.100
And, and also a feeling of a, you
know, a contract that hasn't been met.

00:18:40.820 --> 00:18:42.950
And an inability to.

00:18:43.820 --> 00:18:48.200
Figure out how to have the conversation
about needs and wants and doing it the

00:18:48.200 --> 00:18:51.920
right way and feeling that you have no
power over this other person, as long as

00:18:51.980 --> 00:18:56.120
you use the most basic and dishonorable
method to gain power over this other.

00:18:56.420 --> 00:18:58.640
And anyone that believed in
romantic love as an ideal.

00:18:58.807 --> 00:18:59.497
Surely.

00:18:59.689 --> 00:19:00.109
Surely.

00:19:00.315 --> 00:19:03.195
If this illusion has anything going
for it, it's the idea that this

00:19:03.195 --> 00:19:04.605
man and this woman are equals.

00:19:04.965 --> 00:19:07.095
And I'm sitting there talking
about the heterosexual one here.

00:19:07.635 --> 00:19:08.355
So then.

00:19:08.526 --> 00:19:09.996
Clearly it's bad enough.

00:19:10.116 --> 00:19:14.496
If there's delusion that this person will
magically supply me with what's missing

00:19:14.496 --> 00:19:18.636
in me and I no longer have any, I no
longer have any duty to work on myself

00:19:18.636 --> 00:19:21.906
or figure out what happiness is and
create meaning and purpose for myself.

00:19:22.266 --> 00:19:23.706
This person has to do it all now.

00:19:23.790 --> 00:19:26.220
And so that's going to
stop you from growing.

00:19:26.820 --> 00:19:29.610
But the really dark side of all these is.

00:19:29.721 --> 00:19:33.501
You have, let me down,
you have ruined my life.

00:19:33.531 --> 00:19:37.761
You are responsible for all of
my unhappiness and that is just.

00:19:37.900 --> 00:19:39.250
The flip side, why.

00:19:39.640 --> 00:19:41.110
Why isn't this so obvious to people?

00:19:41.230 --> 00:19:43.930
The flip side of you are responsible
for my happiness is you are

00:19:43.930 --> 00:19:45.310
responsible for my unhappy.

00:19:45.820 --> 00:19:47.020
It's so obvious.

00:19:47.170 --> 00:19:49.150
Ali: Resentment sets in that.

00:19:49.450 --> 00:19:50.980
It just festers and rots.

00:19:51.040 --> 00:19:51.970
And does that's.

00:19:51.970 --> 00:19:55.225
Yeah, it's the undoing and you,
yeah, you lose that respect for that.

00:19:55.585 --> 00:19:56.155
At one point.

00:19:56.155 --> 00:19:56.335
Yeah.

00:19:56.335 --> 00:20:00.235
You'd lose respect for your partner
and that's how yet things are you?

00:20:00.805 --> 00:20:00.985
Right.

00:20:01.435 --> 00:20:04.075
Sam: You put the agency
or out of yourself?

00:20:04.375 --> 00:20:05.305
On to that person

00:20:05.365 --> 00:20:06.595
Ali: dehumanize the other person.

00:20:06.595 --> 00:20:08.035
And that's how these horrible things can.

00:20:08.065 --> 00:20:08.725
I definitely

00:20:08.785 --> 00:20:12.025
Joe: have had a couple of women
over my lifetime and I thought

00:20:12.415 --> 00:20:13.795
if we could just get it right.

00:20:14.305 --> 00:20:16.225
Yeah, it would resolve everything.

00:20:16.855 --> 00:20:18.145
And that that might be true.

00:20:18.235 --> 00:20:19.945
And I would be.

00:20:20.755 --> 00:20:23.275
So happy and at peace
and, and all of that.

00:20:23.305 --> 00:20:28.285
And I experienced it for a decent length
of time, but I would also reflect that.

00:20:28.555 --> 00:20:29.725
The worst.

00:20:29.785 --> 00:20:30.205
Yes.

00:20:30.265 --> 00:20:31.075
The worst.

00:20:31.345 --> 00:20:32.635
Hmm, side of myself.

00:20:33.115 --> 00:20:35.335
And my worst behavior was in relationship.

00:20:35.995 --> 00:20:37.795
And so it's interesting for me.

00:20:38.305 --> 00:20:39.025
Is, yeah.

00:20:39.235 --> 00:20:42.325
Of not being able to make relationship
where it's like, well, maybe

00:20:42.325 --> 00:20:44.305
this aversion is because I know.

00:20:44.469 --> 00:20:49.299
As long as I stay out of a relationship,
I will not access my darkest parts.

00:20:49.479 --> 00:20:52.539
Um, they will stay safely
quarantined from the world.

00:20:52.569 --> 00:20:55.419
Pretty much sell me
like jealousy, honestly.

00:20:55.449 --> 00:20:57.909
Like my last experience of
that a couple of years ago.

00:20:58.539 --> 00:20:59.349
That's not safe.

00:20:59.499 --> 00:21:00.579
I can't.

00:21:01.989 --> 00:21:03.519
As soon as I need to.

00:21:03.669 --> 00:21:03.909
Yeah.

00:21:03.939 --> 00:21:04.179
I don't know.

00:21:04.209 --> 00:21:06.369
There needs to be a
level of trust that yes.

00:21:06.999 --> 00:21:09.129
Is so complete.

00:21:09.429 --> 00:21:11.739
Um, otherwise it's dangerous scares me.

00:21:11.739 --> 00:21:12.879
I scare myself.

00:21:12.969 --> 00:21:13.809
So that's

00:21:13.869 --> 00:21:20.169
Ali: so different to my experience
in that being in a partnership.

00:21:20.499 --> 00:21:22.569
Creates this accountability.

00:21:22.629 --> 00:21:22.869
Yeah.

00:21:23.349 --> 00:21:25.569
Behave so much better.

00:21:26.169 --> 00:21:30.489
My behavior, my stability,
all of that is so much more.

00:21:30.849 --> 00:21:31.209
Yeah.

00:21:32.079 --> 00:21:32.799
Functional.

00:21:34.059 --> 00:21:34.869
And that's why they do call.

00:21:34.869 --> 00:21:35.019
Yeah.

00:21:35.049 --> 00:21:37.419
Like a lot of, you know, lot of
people in long-term relationships.

00:21:37.659 --> 00:21:40.989
And in the context of having a mental
illness, it's a protective factor.

00:21:41.709 --> 00:21:42.849
Just a huge protective factor.

00:21:43.179 --> 00:21:44.919
And so the instability

00:21:45.129 --> 00:21:45.999
Joe: career and wealth.

00:21:46.149 --> 00:21:46.869
And all that stuff.

00:21:46.899 --> 00:21:47.019
Yeah.

00:21:47.259 --> 00:21:47.859
Ali: The stuff.

00:21:47.919 --> 00:21:48.159
Yeah.

00:21:48.609 --> 00:21:50.709
The times when I've not had that yet.

00:21:51.069 --> 00:21:54.219
That partner in my life have
been the Mo that's when I've

00:21:54.219 --> 00:21:55.959
been the most destructive and.

00:21:56.469 --> 00:21:59.559
And done because yeah, there's
no accountability in here.

00:21:59.649 --> 00:22:00.909
And so I've absolutely.

00:22:01.209 --> 00:22:03.699
That's when I've made the
worst decisions for myself.

00:22:03.729 --> 00:22:03.849
Yeah.

00:22:03.909 --> 00:22:04.269
You know?

00:22:04.719 --> 00:22:05.889
Absolutely without a doubt,

00:22:05.979 --> 00:22:08.859
Sam: some of my least proud moments
are in relationships, but as an

00:22:08.859 --> 00:22:12.219
overall baseline, poor average,
it's outside of relationships.

00:22:12.489 --> 00:22:13.719
But it's, it's a dangerous

00:22:13.749 --> 00:22:13.989
Joe: game.

00:22:14.409 --> 00:22:16.539
In addiction circles, we talk about.

00:22:17.079 --> 00:22:18.099
Taking a hostage.

00:22:18.759 --> 00:22:19.569
It's like, yeah.

00:22:20.319 --> 00:22:24.009
Um, isolated in addiction
and how to control here.

00:22:24.039 --> 00:22:24.309
Yeah.

00:22:24.339 --> 00:22:27.219
So I'm just going to grab this
person, bring them into my life.

00:22:27.249 --> 00:22:28.569
Be incredibly charming.

00:22:29.019 --> 00:22:31.479
And then I'm going to go back
to destroying myself, but

00:22:31.779 --> 00:22:32.769
now I've got some company.

00:22:33.009 --> 00:22:33.369
Yes.

00:22:33.429 --> 00:22:36.369
And this person will get attached to
me and they won't be able to get away.

00:22:36.489 --> 00:22:36.729
Um,

00:22:37.449 --> 00:22:39.999
Sam: none of that's a conscious
thought alcoholics look back

00:22:39.999 --> 00:22:42.249
Joe: and say, all I ever
did was take hostages.

00:22:42.669 --> 00:22:44.469
And then, and that's where I'm at.

00:22:44.559 --> 00:22:46.749
I use sober maybe now.

00:22:47.229 --> 00:22:47.709
Wow.

00:22:47.739 --> 00:22:48.219
What if.

00:22:48.729 --> 00:22:51.369
I had a relationship that
wasn't taking a hostage.

00:22:51.429 --> 00:22:51.579
Sam: Yeah.

00:22:51.579 --> 00:22:52.509
I think you can earn it.

00:22:52.599 --> 00:22:55.359
And I think non alcoholics
can do this as well.

00:22:56.079 --> 00:22:59.769
Can I look at all these pop songs
slave to love Unchained my heart,

00:22:59.859 --> 00:23:01.299
like this hostage thing is.

00:23:02.319 --> 00:23:02.529
Yeah.

00:23:02.559 --> 00:23:02.739
Yeah.

00:23:03.339 --> 00:23:06.459
And it's like, that's the whole, I think
this is what this author is going for.

00:23:06.639 --> 00:23:08.169
Not only is there's like an illusion.

00:23:08.709 --> 00:23:11.199
That's hollow and it's
taking you away from that.

00:23:11.439 --> 00:23:14.739
The responsibility to like grow
yourself and be honest with yourself.

00:23:15.219 --> 00:23:17.259
But there's also, it's enabling.

00:23:17.265 --> 00:23:18.735
this behavior of.

00:23:19.335 --> 00:23:22.005
Demanding from others and like, not.

00:23:22.093 --> 00:23:26.353
It's a way it's a great Dodge to get away
from this obligation to the cell fence, to

00:23:26.383 --> 00:23:30.913
the other end, to treat these two people
as equals and like it's based in reality.

00:23:31.243 --> 00:23:32.113
And these two people are.

00:23:32.713 --> 00:23:33.523
Like Allie was saying.

00:23:33.853 --> 00:23:37.033
I can see now while you've got room for
this idea of romantic love, because.

00:23:37.723 --> 00:23:40.393
I think you've got a very
practical and rational and

00:23:40.393 --> 00:23:41.803
actually healthy concept of it.

00:23:41.833 --> 00:23:44.923
So that's what probably makes
it seem operable to you.

00:23:45.373 --> 00:23:48.433
Maybe you haven't fully given
into the complete delusion of it.

00:23:48.703 --> 00:23:48.943
Yeah.

00:23:49.303 --> 00:23:51.883
You're actually much more attuned
to this idea of two people

00:23:51.883 --> 00:23:53.353
holding each other accountable.

00:23:53.683 --> 00:23:54.673
And growing

00:23:55.063 --> 00:23:55.603
Ali: together.

00:23:55.963 --> 00:23:56.173
Yeah.

00:23:56.743 --> 00:24:00.763
It's actually, it can, if you've got
two people who are of the mindset

00:24:00.763 --> 00:24:02.923
that they need to work on themselves.

00:24:03.433 --> 00:24:05.953
And our own control of their
own behaviors and the, and the

00:24:05.953 --> 00:24:07.423
consequences of those behaviors.

00:24:07.423 --> 00:24:13.380
And, but actually can have an open and
meaningful and honest, Relationship

00:24:13.380 --> 00:24:16.470
with each other where they can talk
through and work through those things.

00:24:16.470 --> 00:24:19.380
It's absolutely possible that
that would actually be of

00:24:19.380 --> 00:24:21.660
benefit to those for both people.

00:24:21.660 --> 00:24:21.870
And.

00:24:22.350 --> 00:24:22.590
Yeah.

00:24:22.620 --> 00:24:25.200
And it'd be a really positive thing
yet having that accountability.

00:24:26.460 --> 00:24:26.610
Joe: Yeah.

00:24:26.640 --> 00:24:28.650
So do you believe it's possible that.

00:24:29.280 --> 00:24:31.800
The rest of your life,
you'll have more romantic.

00:24:31.911 --> 00:24:34.911
Relationships, fall in love
again and have that equal

00:24:34.911 --> 00:24:36.771
connection and all the good shit.

00:24:37.341 --> 00:24:37.611
Yes.

00:24:37.911 --> 00:24:39.471
The elixir as the quote would fall.

00:24:39.651 --> 00:24:42.891
Ali: And I, but, and this is where
I was sort of saying, talking to the

00:24:42.891 --> 00:24:44.541
psychologist, my thought that I, but.

00:24:45.021 --> 00:24:48.291
I lost earlier in that I don't
necessarily believe that that

00:24:48.321 --> 00:24:52.071
yeah, like necessarily has to exist
in a partnership in two people.

00:24:52.581 --> 00:24:56.931
For like for forever, for the rest of your
lives, it could be that you just have this

00:24:56.931 --> 00:24:59.091
beautiful, lovely, romantic experience.

00:24:59.541 --> 00:25:02.061
For three months or you might
have it for three years or you

00:25:02.061 --> 00:25:03.411
might have it for 30 years.

00:25:03.741 --> 00:25:04.611
And it doesn't.

00:25:04.821 --> 00:25:09.171
And just because for whatever reason,
because life people grow, change, move on.

00:25:09.201 --> 00:25:11.751
It doesn't take away that,
that wasn't actually.

00:25:12.201 --> 00:25:14.931
A loving, romantic,
beautiful thing that you had.

00:25:15.231 --> 00:25:18.171
And that, that expectation that,
yeah, it doesn't have to be forever,

00:25:18.171 --> 00:25:20.331
but right now, It's fantastic.

00:25:20.841 --> 00:25:21.021
There

00:25:21.021 --> 00:25:24.501
Joe: is a line about, you can have
a relationship for 30 years or you

00:25:24.501 --> 00:25:28.131
can have it for a season and the
season could be just as profound.

00:25:28.191 --> 00:25:28.371
Exactly.

00:25:28.971 --> 00:25:31.971
I've had that experience about
three or four times, but.

00:25:32.001 --> 00:25:36.591
My problem is once the season's
over the next 15 seasons is spent

00:25:36.621 --> 00:25:38.181
thinking about that one season.

00:25:38.421 --> 00:25:40.461
I'm able to move on, right.

00:25:40.821 --> 00:25:41.331
Because.

00:25:42.261 --> 00:25:44.691
It's very sticky it lodges in your brain.

00:25:44.691 --> 00:25:47.691
If you have a deep connection with
someone and then they're suddenly gone

00:25:47.691 --> 00:25:49.551
for me, that's a big attachment wound.

00:25:50.661 --> 00:25:52.161
I can't breathe.

00:25:52.251 --> 00:25:52.911
Where is that

00:25:52.911 --> 00:25:53.331
Ali: person?

00:25:53.571 --> 00:25:57.111
Something quite recently about like
how men particularly do that, where

00:25:57.111 --> 00:25:59.391
they, they will often think about.

00:25:59.991 --> 00:26:02.571
First love or, you know, are
the old relationships like.

00:26:02.631 --> 00:26:03.591
The one that got away.

00:26:04.011 --> 00:26:06.051
And the way that women
don't necessarily do.

00:26:06.261 --> 00:26:09.081
You might think about your execute
and it's not to say they're not even

00:26:09.081 --> 00:26:10.731
in a happy and loving relationship.

00:26:10.971 --> 00:26:12.531
I still look back on it.

00:26:12.951 --> 00:26:15.201
Why men particularly do that versus women?

00:26:15.201 --> 00:26:15.621
Don't.

00:26:16.101 --> 00:26:17.301
Joe: Might be a possessiveness thing.

00:26:17.331 --> 00:26:17.571
I think.

00:26:17.781 --> 00:26:20.121
Ali: But yeah, like women
don't necessarily looking

00:26:20.151 --> 00:26:21.291
back in that sort of way.

00:26:21.291 --> 00:26:23.571
It's sort of more what's ahead or.

00:26:23.601 --> 00:26:25.071
Like right now.

00:26:25.101 --> 00:26:26.241
Joe: Or they think about that guy thing.

00:26:26.511 --> 00:26:27.231
Hey, he was at daycare.

00:26:30.441 --> 00:26:33.831
Ali: I was not thinking, then I
lowered my standards and that's what

00:26:34.581 --> 00:26:36.741
I got for that, like, absolutely.

00:26:36.981 --> 00:26:38.331
I'd say that's most women go.

00:26:38.571 --> 00:26:39.591
What was I thinking?

00:26:40.731 --> 00:26:41.901
Sam: So this is off your

00:26:41.901 --> 00:26:42.171
Ali: lighting.

00:26:43.431 --> 00:26:43.671
So this

00:26:43.701 --> 00:26:47.631
Sam: delusion in might impact it might
impact the agendas on equally, perhaps.

00:26:47.648 --> 00:26:50.645
and I think maybe women
are usually seen as the.

00:26:50.786 --> 00:26:53.036
I guess the people most susceptible.

00:26:53.486 --> 00:26:57.215
The ones most likely to, Consumer
romantic literature and that, yeah.

00:26:57.665 --> 00:26:59.255
The amount of romantic,

00:26:59.435 --> 00:27:03.725
Ali: like all like smart as it's, you
know, like the smart that I would eat.

00:27:04.475 --> 00:27:09.635
Is just consumed in from women quite young
through to like, I'd say my Nana, like.

00:27:10.685 --> 00:27:12.845
So in such huge amounts, like yeah.

00:27:13.445 --> 00:27:13.835
Yeah.

00:27:13.835 --> 00:27:15.605
There's a huge market for that, like

00:27:15.875 --> 00:27:16.985
Sam: that voracious

00:27:16.985 --> 00:27:17.765
Ali: voracious rates.

00:27:17.765 --> 00:27:18.005
Yeah.

00:27:18.095 --> 00:27:21.725
Sam: And yet we can't take from
that, any kind of simple assumption.

00:27:22.055 --> 00:27:25.805
Well, therefore women
are more diluted in this.

00:27:25.835 --> 00:27:27.365
They're more committed to this allusion.

00:27:27.365 --> 00:27:28.715
I don't think that's true necessarily.

00:27:28.715 --> 00:27:28.925
Yeah.

00:27:29.195 --> 00:27:34.025
And maybe men aren't spending as much
time investigating it and like turning

00:27:34.025 --> 00:27:35.945
it over and like, Oh, who's to say I

00:27:35.975 --> 00:27:36.425
Joe: don't have it.

00:27:36.425 --> 00:27:38.225
There's the princess fantasy as well.

00:27:38.255 --> 00:27:38.585
Certainly.

00:27:38.915 --> 00:27:41.135
Like someone who does at times, It cuts

00:27:41.135 --> 00:27:41.735
Sam: both ways.

00:27:41.825 --> 00:27:42.245
Yeah.

00:27:42.275 --> 00:27:45.275
Joe: Like I was exposed to
all the same cultural stuff.

00:27:45.665 --> 00:27:46.085
Yeah.

00:27:46.265 --> 00:27:46.565
Yeah.

00:27:47.255 --> 00:27:48.245
I wanted to ask you Don.

00:27:48.845 --> 00:27:50.105
It might be a bit personal, but.

00:27:50.320 --> 00:27:53.950
So I assume you fell madly
in love and then got married.

00:27:54.102 --> 00:27:54.402
Yes.

00:27:54.432 --> 00:27:55.362
Cut to what?

00:27:55.392 --> 00:27:56.472
15 years later.

00:27:56.562 --> 00:27:56.802
Yeah.

00:27:57.042 --> 00:27:58.002
What does that look like?

00:27:58.062 --> 00:28:00.912
I'd never gone past nine, 10.

00:28:01.482 --> 00:28:02.292
Nine years yet.

00:28:02.382 --> 00:28:05.382
And the love, I don't think
made it past about seven.

00:28:05.892 --> 00:28:06.252
Sam: Hmm.

00:28:06.492 --> 00:28:08.652
2009 was the last time you were in low.

00:28:08.772 --> 00:28:09.282
No, it was.

00:28:11.292 --> 00:28:14.292
Actually, you know what, I'm
actually banging up for this.

00:28:14.292 --> 00:28:15.612
You've asked me on the right day.

00:28:16.152 --> 00:28:17.652
Um, yeah.

00:28:19.002 --> 00:28:20.982
I was, I was going to refer
to an earlier relationship.

00:28:20.982 --> 00:28:22.572
Like maybe, you know, maybe that's a.

00:28:23.022 --> 00:28:26.052
At more of a distance and I can
be more honest, but no, no, no.

00:28:26.202 --> 00:28:26.472
Like.

00:28:27.402 --> 00:28:29.082
I can very much answer this.

00:28:29.952 --> 00:28:30.402
Yes.

00:28:30.822 --> 00:28:31.182
Felt.

00:28:31.373 --> 00:28:34.673
On the first, you know, we didn't
have a first meet the first.

00:28:34.793 --> 00:28:35.603
Love at first sight.

00:28:35.788 --> 00:28:36.538
Very close.

00:28:38.608 --> 00:28:39.508
Ali: Yeah, it's something.

00:28:40.138 --> 00:28:42.058
Yeah, all my longterm path or.

00:28:42.358 --> 00:28:43.588
I have dated for a significant amount.

00:28:43.588 --> 00:28:45.898
I was absolutely something at first sight.

00:28:48.148 --> 00:28:48.808
Absolutely.

00:28:48.958 --> 00:28:49.468
Struck.

00:28:51.358 --> 00:28:51.628
Yeah.

00:28:51.748 --> 00:28:53.098
Sam: And it's the.

00:28:53.698 --> 00:28:57.148
It's that's as much love
as you'll feel that soon.

00:28:57.268 --> 00:28:58.168
Like put it that way.

00:28:58.168 --> 00:28:59.848
It's like you, don't
the words I'm in love.

00:28:59.848 --> 00:29:01.558
Didn't necessarily come into your mind.

00:29:01.978 --> 00:29:04.858
But you're like, I only
want to talk to this person.

00:29:05.368 --> 00:29:07.198
For the rest of the evening and beyond.

00:29:07.438 --> 00:29:07.618
Yeah.

00:29:07.678 --> 00:29:07.858
Yeah.

00:29:08.820 --> 00:29:12.870
and also there was never, there
was no point in that immediate.

00:29:13.022 --> 00:29:13.622
Courtship.

00:29:13.743 --> 00:29:16.083
where there was a sour note, like it was.

00:29:17.313 --> 00:29:19.353
And there was like a gap
of a couple of weeks.

00:29:20.223 --> 00:29:25.053
And just like just a, sort of a romantic
evening in a small town by the beach.

00:29:25.113 --> 00:29:25.773
And then.

00:29:26.023 --> 00:29:28.363
Sort of a couple of weeks went
by because of work trips and.

00:29:29.023 --> 00:29:29.923
I was busy.

00:29:30.110 --> 00:29:31.610
And then I do make it down to Melbourne.

00:29:32.480 --> 00:29:33.140
Have another date.

00:29:33.470 --> 00:29:35.600
And, you know, it goes well and.

00:29:36.200 --> 00:29:38.780
But the vibe is different because
we're in the big city now and it felt.

00:29:39.050 --> 00:29:39.590
Oh, okay.

00:29:39.620 --> 00:29:42.500
It's a bit more real now
because we're not by the beach.

00:29:43.190 --> 00:29:44.720
Can they still work down here?

00:29:45.290 --> 00:29:46.700
And yeah, I felt.

00:29:46.919 --> 00:29:47.429
Very.

00:29:48.419 --> 00:29:50.849
Impressed and struck and yeah, absolutely.

00:29:50.849 --> 00:29:53.219
And I was like, ah, I really want
to put my best foot forward here.

00:29:53.249 --> 00:29:53.819
Absolutely.

00:29:54.269 --> 00:29:56.129
And, you know, I was
getting advice from friends.

00:29:56.549 --> 00:29:59.219
And like, I was not my usual.

00:30:00.239 --> 00:30:00.539
You know,

00:30:00.569 --> 00:30:02.429
Joe: did they give you
the Georgia standard boss?

00:30:03.329 --> 00:30:05.489
Uh, whatever you thinking,
just do the opposite.

00:30:07.859 --> 00:30:11.339
Sam: Actually, yes, a lot of the
advice was don't be your usual self.

00:30:12.449 --> 00:30:13.799
Yeah, actually, that's true.

00:30:14.459 --> 00:30:15.299
Yeah, actually, I did.

00:30:15.299 --> 00:30:17.759
I get a lot of friends who were
reality, checking me though, like,

00:30:17.969 --> 00:30:20.189
okay, this is a big lift for you.

00:30:20.249 --> 00:30:22.199
So, um, Hm.

00:30:22.649 --> 00:30:25.559
Okay, let's see, let's
get you a facial scrub.

00:30:25.679 --> 00:30:26.789
Um, and.

00:30:27.329 --> 00:30:29.969
Oh, you know, How are
you going for cash, dude?

00:30:29.999 --> 00:30:32.699
Like, you know, This is a big city chick.

00:30:32.699 --> 00:30:34.139
She's she's a heavy hitter man.

00:30:34.139 --> 00:30:35.429
Like what have you got?

00:30:36.449 --> 00:30:36.659
Ali: Yeah.

00:30:36.989 --> 00:30:37.679
They're trying to help.

00:30:37.709 --> 00:30:39.029
Yeah.

00:30:40.109 --> 00:30:40.499
Sam: They were.

00:30:41.519 --> 00:30:42.299
They were very keen.

00:30:42.719 --> 00:30:44.729
It was having, I was having one
of the most amazing evenings.

00:30:44.759 --> 00:30:45.659
It was black Saturday.

00:30:46.259 --> 00:30:49.829
And which is a Bama for lots of
things, but, you know, in Lauren

00:30:49.829 --> 00:30:51.569
it was stinking hot, huge days.

00:30:51.659 --> 00:30:53.009
He's day's trade by the beach.

00:30:53.099 --> 00:30:55.109
The whole town had worked hard, you know?

00:30:55.649 --> 00:30:58.529
And all the hospitality
kids went to the pub.

00:30:58.619 --> 00:30:59.489
I never go.

00:30:59.999 --> 00:31:02.639
To the pub at that point,
I'm like, no, that sucks.

00:31:03.239 --> 00:31:06.749
Uh, but I said to a bunch of
Sams that I knew there was a gang

00:31:06.749 --> 00:31:09.089
that was about five, six Sams.

00:31:09.149 --> 00:31:10.679
And I was like, All right.

00:31:10.709 --> 00:31:11.909
Sam's we're going to the pub.

00:31:12.629 --> 00:31:13.859
And they were like, what?

00:31:14.159 --> 00:31:14.999
That's unusual.

00:31:14.999 --> 00:31:16.229
And I'm like, something's in the air.

00:31:16.229 --> 00:31:16.949
We've got to do it.

00:31:17.249 --> 00:31:19.589
And so all of this is romantic delusion.

00:31:19.589 --> 00:31:21.719
When you look at it
like it's classic case.

00:31:22.499 --> 00:31:23.729
And we rocked up.

00:31:23.759 --> 00:31:25.919
We were having the dance
of our lives on the floor.

00:31:25.979 --> 00:31:28.739
We weren't paying any
attention to the ladies.

00:31:28.769 --> 00:31:29.549
We weren't tuning.

00:31:29.579 --> 00:31:30.149
We were just.

00:31:30.285 --> 00:31:34.635
Having a good boys night,
not in a laddish yucky way.

00:31:34.635 --> 00:31:36.465
Just more like a girl's night.

00:31:36.495 --> 00:31:36.855
Really.

00:31:37.605 --> 00:31:38.445
Ali: Yeah, exactly.

00:31:38.715 --> 00:31:39.675
Sam: Very much a girls' night.

00:31:39.735 --> 00:31:42.765
And then I did the classic
and just ditched the girls.

00:31:42.975 --> 00:31:44.145
When the guy came along.

00:31:45.405 --> 00:31:45.675
Ali: Yeah.

00:31:47.025 --> 00:31:47.295
Sam: All right.

00:31:47.325 --> 00:31:47.775
Well done.

00:31:48.495 --> 00:31:49.785
Yeah, sorry guys.

00:31:51.315 --> 00:31:51.525
Yeah.

00:31:52.335 --> 00:31:53.175
I spelt.

00:31:53.415 --> 00:31:56.025
I rushed off the dance floor
because they started playing.

00:31:56.295 --> 00:31:57.975
Blister in the sun and the cover band.

00:31:57.975 --> 00:32:01.335
I won't allow the cover band to play that
while I dance it's against the rules.

00:32:01.395 --> 00:32:02.055
And so I ran off.

00:32:02.325 --> 00:32:04.095
Was it little LEAs,
little lawn traditions.

00:32:04.095 --> 00:32:05.145
And I ran off the dance floor.

00:32:05.805 --> 00:32:07.245
To get another VA spelt my drink.

00:32:07.545 --> 00:32:08.415
I thought I'd spelt hers.

00:32:08.445 --> 00:32:09.585
And I said, I'm so sorry.

00:32:09.795 --> 00:32:10.965
Can I get you another drink?

00:32:11.201 --> 00:32:12.131
And she said.

00:32:12.821 --> 00:32:15.071
Uh, you could, but you spelt yours.

00:32:17.051 --> 00:32:17.321
Yes.

00:32:17.351 --> 00:32:17.621
Wow.

00:32:17.651 --> 00:32:18.461
Oh, you're so right.

00:32:18.941 --> 00:32:19.901
Yes, I did.

00:32:20.171 --> 00:32:22.421
How silly off me anyway,
it comes to the bar.

00:32:25.181 --> 00:32:26.741
And then we just talked
the rest of the evening.

00:32:26.831 --> 00:32:27.221
I forgot.

00:32:27.251 --> 00:32:28.211
I forgot about drinking.

00:32:28.631 --> 00:32:28.901
Joe: Yeah,

00:32:28.931 --> 00:32:29.471
Sam: amazing.

00:32:29.501 --> 00:32:30.191
That was a good thing.

00:32:30.191 --> 00:32:31.061
I was like, okay.

00:32:31.121 --> 00:32:32.531
Joe: He never had another drink.

00:32:33.491 --> 00:32:40.061
Sam: Not so unfortunately, Th this rosy
picture was soon replaced with huge

00:32:40.061 --> 00:32:43.421
feelings of inadequacy on my part, and
that I was not going to be able to.

00:32:43.685 --> 00:32:46.055
Actually live up to this and I was
not going to be a good partner.

00:32:46.145 --> 00:32:48.125
Joe: I've heard someone to
point out reality to you ever

00:32:48.125 --> 00:32:49.175
since that moment, though.

00:32:49.205 --> 00:32:49.745
Yes.

00:32:49.775 --> 00:32:49.955
Like.

00:32:50.015 --> 00:32:51.095
No, that did not happen.

00:32:51.095 --> 00:32:52.235
Sam, something else happened.

00:32:52.415 --> 00:32:56.045
Ah, That's going on for like
15 years since that moment.

00:32:56.495 --> 00:32:57.005
Sam: Well that's right.

00:32:57.035 --> 00:33:00.155
But, so what did happen was about.

00:33:00.695 --> 00:33:01.445
Uh, I dunno.

00:33:02.075 --> 00:33:05.225
Free four months later, moved in and.

00:33:05.975 --> 00:33:06.725
Later moved in.

00:33:06.725 --> 00:33:07.685
Yeah, that's right.

00:33:07.715 --> 00:33:08.375
Joe: Things were different

00:33:08.585 --> 00:33:09.155
Ali: They really

00:33:10.955 --> 00:33:11.915
Joe: were together.

00:33:12.485 --> 00:33:13.655
The shack, stop

00:33:13.685 --> 00:33:14.315
Ali: going home.

00:33:15.095 --> 00:33:16.145
That's what happened with me?

00:33:16.175 --> 00:33:16.355
Like.

00:33:16.415 --> 00:33:17.645
Yeah, my son's father.

00:33:18.275 --> 00:33:19.115
After a few weeks.

00:33:19.115 --> 00:33:20.465
So you're just, I'm like, oh, okay.

00:33:20.525 --> 00:33:20.975
This isn't.

00:33:22.055 --> 00:33:23.225
Oh, yeah, that's right.

00:33:23.645 --> 00:33:23.945
Sam: Yeah.

00:33:24.455 --> 00:33:25.145
I've seen that.

00:33:26.225 --> 00:33:27.335
I used to happen a lot more.

00:33:27.935 --> 00:33:28.205
Yeah.

00:33:28.535 --> 00:33:29.795
Joe: So many balls up

00:33:29.855 --> 00:33:30.875
Sam: there was a different time.

00:33:31.025 --> 00:33:34.595
And I think there, the romantic
delusion was going on there as well.

00:33:34.625 --> 00:33:39.515
That like, Um, But, you know, and
I think partly because instead of.

00:33:40.085 --> 00:33:44.285
Taking the more of the advice you'd get
now of know, be yourself Watson, all.

00:33:44.825 --> 00:33:47.585
And make sure that the yellow
flags are all on display and

00:33:47.585 --> 00:33:48.425
you've got to work through it.

00:33:48.815 --> 00:33:51.185
And I got yellow flags, but again,

00:33:51.245 --> 00:33:51.455
Joe: hang on.

00:33:51.485 --> 00:33:52.325
What's a yellow flag.

00:33:52.835 --> 00:33:54.005
Sam: It doesn't mean, it means.

00:33:54.217 --> 00:33:57.547
Ali: It's not a deal breaker,
but it's it's it could be.

00:33:57.787 --> 00:33:57.967
Yeah.

00:33:57.997 --> 00:33:58.897
So it's something, yeah.

00:33:58.897 --> 00:34:01.057
You proceed with caution as in like, okay.

00:34:01.087 --> 00:34:03.517
I'm aware that this
person has this attribute.

00:34:03.547 --> 00:34:03.847
Am I?

00:34:04.087 --> 00:34:06.067
I might be okay with
it if they work on it.

00:34:06.187 --> 00:34:06.667
Yes.

00:34:06.727 --> 00:34:09.427
Versus like, oh, this is
something they're completely out

00:34:09.427 --> 00:34:10.777
of is out of control and yes.

00:34:10.987 --> 00:34:12.067
It's never going to work for me.

00:34:12.067 --> 00:34:12.787
That would be a register.

00:34:12.787 --> 00:34:12.967
Yeah,

00:34:13.087 --> 00:34:13.657
Sam: exactly.

00:34:13.657 --> 00:34:17.047
So, and green flags are
like, oh, shared values.

00:34:17.437 --> 00:34:21.547
L L level of our level of emotional
investment is about the same.

00:34:22.147 --> 00:34:22.657
Heard of grand

00:34:22.657 --> 00:34:22.957
Joe: plugs.

00:34:22.987 --> 00:34:24.457
I've never, never seen one, but.

00:34:25.327 --> 00:34:25.567
Sam: Yeah.

00:34:25.597 --> 00:34:29.077
And so I can really, I'm going
to point listeners once again to

00:34:29.257 --> 00:34:31.267
Tracy, Morgan's a securely attached.

00:34:31.387 --> 00:34:34.777
Um, podcast where she, she did
a great episode recently on

00:34:34.837 --> 00:34:36.517
these three sets of flags and,

00:34:36.609 --> 00:34:38.559
Joe: I'd like to dress
as a giant red flag.

00:34:38.679 --> 00:34:40.029
Just on for first dates.

00:34:40.089 --> 00:34:40.599
Yes.

00:34:41.379 --> 00:34:42.219
Sam: And it's a good gag.

00:34:42.309 --> 00:34:43.329
Yeah.

00:34:44.109 --> 00:34:45.789
Joe: Yeah, so they know exactly.

00:34:46.449 --> 00:34:47.919
Before I even sit down at the table.

00:34:48.819 --> 00:34:49.779
Is this a red flag?

00:34:49.809 --> 00:34:52.659
Sam: This is definitely a tricky customer.

00:34:52.749 --> 00:34:54.819
Yeah, I think it's really good.

00:34:54.969 --> 00:34:56.859
To, to be upfront about that.

00:34:57.189 --> 00:34:58.479
Dresses a giant red flag right

00:34:58.479 --> 00:34:59.949
Joe: now in case I run into someone.

00:35:00.009 --> 00:35:00.309
Yes.

00:35:01.209 --> 00:35:01.689
Yeah.

00:35:02.199 --> 00:35:02.829
My way home.

00:35:02.889 --> 00:35:03.459
Absolutely.

00:35:03.519 --> 00:35:04.059
And anyways,

00:35:04.629 --> 00:35:08.469
Sam: And I think the two of us were very
much trying to put our best foot forward.

00:35:08.529 --> 00:35:09.219
And that is.

00:35:09.279 --> 00:35:09.639
Yeah.

00:35:10.089 --> 00:35:12.969
Ali: They even in a long term, and this
is what I was saying before about the

00:35:12.969 --> 00:35:18.429
accountability, or like having somebody
who want, who you are your best self

00:35:18.459 --> 00:35:20.559
around, because you want to be your best.

00:35:21.309 --> 00:35:24.849
And the things that you are capable of,
that perhaps you don't necessarily do.

00:35:25.179 --> 00:35:27.069
Just for yourself, but yeah, you will do.

00:35:27.489 --> 00:35:28.899
For somebody you care about?

00:35:28.929 --> 00:35:29.259
Yes.

00:35:29.499 --> 00:35:31.809
I mean, yeah, these, the argument, you
should be able to do it for yourself.

00:35:31.809 --> 00:35:32.319
I'm not saying.

00:35:33.369 --> 00:35:34.959
And for friends and for family.

00:35:36.129 --> 00:35:39.339
But having somebody there
that actually brings out those

00:35:39.339 --> 00:35:41.049
nice qualities of yourself.

00:35:41.259 --> 00:35:42.849
It's actually a really positive thing.

00:35:42.879 --> 00:35:42.999
Yeah,

00:35:43.509 --> 00:35:46.299
Joe: I got into that zone and
stayed in it for a few years,

00:35:46.389 --> 00:35:48.939
like long enough to have children.

00:35:48.939 --> 00:35:50.769
And I stayed in the
best version of myself.

00:35:52.269 --> 00:35:55.629
I remember like meeting the
mother-in-law the, for the first time.

00:35:55.629 --> 00:35:56.139
And it was.

00:35:57.009 --> 00:35:57.849
What was hard.

00:35:58.539 --> 00:35:59.439
It was just hard.

00:35:59.889 --> 00:36:01.569
But I was an angel.

00:36:01.629 --> 00:36:01.719
You.

00:36:02.289 --> 00:36:03.699
And I went for a couple of days.

00:36:03.819 --> 00:36:04.059
Yeah.

00:36:04.299 --> 00:36:07.089
And, you know, and the partner
was so grateful that I'd made

00:36:07.089 --> 00:36:08.529
that effort with that person.

00:36:08.529 --> 00:36:12.519
And of course, thinking of course,
I'm going to make that effort like.

00:36:13.059 --> 00:36:16.719
I'm in love with you, like whatever it
takes to become part of your family.

00:36:16.779 --> 00:36:19.479
Yes, I haven't access
to that part of myself.

00:36:20.229 --> 00:36:20.949
Over a decade.

00:36:20.979 --> 00:36:21.129
So I

00:36:21.159 --> 00:36:24.219
Sam: think there's nothing wrong
with making that effort provided at

00:36:24.219 --> 00:36:28.539
the same time were able to be honest
with ourselves and the other early

00:36:28.539 --> 00:36:32.349
on and say, just so you know, it
looks, things seem to be going well.

00:36:32.349 --> 00:36:33.099
And I'm really,

00:36:33.279 --> 00:36:33.549
Joe: yeah,

00:36:33.639 --> 00:36:35.709
Sam: I'm all in, but can I just say.

00:36:36.369 --> 00:36:41.769
I do have a bit of a closet and you
know, you probably have a right to know.

00:36:41.947 --> 00:36:45.217
Now at this stage of my life,
I was very bad at explaining.

00:36:46.087 --> 00:36:48.007
Well, this to myself, much less.

00:36:48.037 --> 00:36:48.877
Anybody else?

00:36:49.177 --> 00:36:52.477
And I just was very much
just fingers crossed.

00:36:52.687 --> 00:36:56.827
Like let's, let's go with the
fantasy and let's believe it till we

00:36:56.827 --> 00:36:58.717
achieve it, you know, rather than.

00:36:58.927 --> 00:37:00.427
Ah, let's do the homework.

00:37:00.487 --> 00:37:01.747
Let's do the due diligence.

00:37:02.077 --> 00:37:03.127
That's where I'm at now.

00:37:04.177 --> 00:37:07.297
Ali: I was going to say similarly,
like going in with that sort of

00:37:07.777 --> 00:37:11.977
self-awareness has been something
since I had my little mentee be that.

00:37:12.457 --> 00:37:15.067
Moving forward with dating
in that, like I thought.

00:37:15.307 --> 00:37:18.727
Because I did bring my best self
out in those previous relationships.

00:37:18.997 --> 00:37:20.167
It's like, oh, well, I can keep.

00:37:20.677 --> 00:37:24.337
Like, I don't even need to
acknowledge those sort of those

00:37:24.337 --> 00:37:25.807
things at all, because I've gone now.

00:37:25.867 --> 00:37:27.187
Yeah, because I'm not behaving in that.

00:37:27.217 --> 00:37:29.707
You know, I don't do that when I'm in
a relationship because I don't, but.

00:37:30.067 --> 00:37:30.187
Yeah.

00:37:30.817 --> 00:37:35.917
But I think actually since then, and
being far more honest, About yeah.

00:37:35.917 --> 00:37:38.497
Where, you know, whether it's
your mental health stuff, whatever

00:37:38.497 --> 00:37:41.677
it is, because, you know, having
that vulnerability and going into

00:37:41.707 --> 00:37:42.187
Sam: the main.

00:37:42.817 --> 00:37:43.117
Ali: Yeah.

00:37:43.537 --> 00:37:46.147
This is actually the whole package.

00:37:46.147 --> 00:37:48.367
It's not necessarily what
you will say because.

00:37:48.817 --> 00:37:50.407
But it is a part of me and it's yeah.

00:37:51.187 --> 00:37:52.147
It is liberating.

00:37:52.147 --> 00:37:54.967
Like, you know, I was joking to
somebody I'd met recently that, you

00:37:54.967 --> 00:37:56.707
know, how, how do you sort of explain.

00:37:57.217 --> 00:38:01.057
Like 50 years ago, I would have definitely
been a candidate for a lumpectomy.

00:38:01.777 --> 00:38:01.927
Yeah,

00:38:04.057 --> 00:38:04.537
that was in the

00:38:04.537 --> 00:38:05.647
Sam: Kennedy family though.

00:38:05.977 --> 00:38:07.837
Ali: Yeah, that that's, that
is actually the reality.

00:38:07.837 --> 00:38:09.517
I have quite a serious mental health.

00:38:09.997 --> 00:38:11.647
Elnett illness and

00:38:11.677 --> 00:38:12.577
Sam: they've been zapping me.

00:38:12.877 --> 00:38:16.897
Ali: Exactly and you know, but you
know, I'm, I get, I have good treatment.

00:38:16.897 --> 00:38:17.977
I have good supports, blah, blah, blah.

00:38:18.007 --> 00:38:19.027
This is what I do to manage it.

00:38:19.267 --> 00:38:19.327
The

00:38:19.327 --> 00:38:20.977
Sam: DCT is actually a legitimate.

00:38:21.457 --> 00:38:21.967
It really is.

00:38:22.147 --> 00:38:22.777
And it's super

00:38:22.777 --> 00:38:23.587
Ali: effective for some people.

00:38:24.697 --> 00:38:24.877
Yeah.

00:38:25.382 --> 00:38:28.592
yeah, like the, you know, basically
that, yeah, I don't ex I don't

00:38:28.592 --> 00:38:31.232
have any expectations around
this other person managing it.

00:38:31.232 --> 00:38:34.982
And this is, this is just what I do, but
just so also that you're aware of it so

00:38:34.982 --> 00:38:38.492
that you can make an informed decision
of whether you want to be involved with

00:38:38.492 --> 00:38:41.492
somebody who has that, because they
may very well have had an experience.

00:38:41.552 --> 00:38:41.732
Yeah.

00:38:42.512 --> 00:38:44.012
You know, it wasn't positive or.

00:38:44.342 --> 00:38:47.222
They did have to take on that mental
load of being with somebody who

00:38:47.222 --> 00:38:48.662
has, you know, a mental illness and

00:38:48.902 --> 00:38:49.082
Joe: yeah.

00:38:49.532 --> 00:38:51.332
Ali: If they want to opt out
of it, they have every right

00:38:51.332 --> 00:38:52.172
to be able to opt out of that.

00:38:52.592 --> 00:38:52.862
Did we

00:38:52.862 --> 00:38:53.942
Joe: keep that quiet before?

00:38:54.302 --> 00:38:54.692
You had your

00:38:56.192 --> 00:38:59.102
Ali: part of it was not even
really knowing like what it was

00:38:59.192 --> 00:39:00.632
like, you know, and then yeah.

00:39:00.722 --> 00:39:04.442
But, but also, yeah, I'll just, I really
minimize like, oh, well I never wanted

00:39:04.442 --> 00:39:06.422
to make that anybody else's problem.

00:39:06.422 --> 00:39:07.142
And I still don't.

00:39:07.142 --> 00:39:10.382
I don't, I fundamentally believe
in that personal responsibility

00:39:10.382 --> 00:39:12.002
around managing your own.

00:39:12.302 --> 00:39:12.692
You wouldn't know.

00:39:13.172 --> 00:39:13.532
You wouldn't

00:39:13.532 --> 00:39:15.092
Sam: have done much therapy before.

00:39:15.692 --> 00:39:16.352
Ali: Absolutely not.

00:39:16.532 --> 00:39:17.462
I would've just went.

00:39:17.492 --> 00:39:17.582
Yeah.

00:39:18.842 --> 00:39:20.282
Joe: Did you know, you
were bipolar though.

00:39:20.576 --> 00:39:22.646
Ali: well, so I, I, it.

00:39:23.036 --> 00:39:26.876
It first got floated around the age of 19.

00:39:26.876 --> 00:39:27.986
I was actually talking
to my mum about this.

00:39:27.986 --> 00:39:28.946
Like we'll try and work it out.

00:39:28.946 --> 00:39:33.776
And then it was again, I mentioned when
I was pregnant, but then like, yeah.

00:39:34.196 --> 00:39:36.326
But it was, it was a number of
years after that, that it was

00:39:36.326 --> 00:39:37.706
actually a formal diagnosis.

00:39:37.706 --> 00:39:37.886
Right.

00:39:39.026 --> 00:39:39.656
Joe: About the same time.

00:39:40.016 --> 00:39:40.166
Ali: Yeah.

00:39:40.406 --> 00:39:41.036
That's when it started.

00:39:41.456 --> 00:39:41.846
Yeah.

00:39:42.026 --> 00:39:43.106
Because that's when you develop it, right?

00:39:43.136 --> 00:39:43.736
Yeah.

00:39:44.006 --> 00:39:47.726
Joe: I mean, I mean, I had
spent eight years upfronting

00:39:47.756 --> 00:39:49.736
being bipolar and an alcoholic.

00:39:49.980 --> 00:39:52.380
By the end, certainly by
the end of the first date.

00:39:52.680 --> 00:39:54.840
But often in the chat before we even meet.

00:39:55.650 --> 00:39:56.370
Your red flag,

00:39:56.400 --> 00:39:57.750
Sam: yellow flagging right up front.

00:39:58.770 --> 00:40:02.040
Joe: It's not that cool because it's just
thrown out there as this kind of hurdle.

00:40:02.070 --> 00:40:02.100
It's.

00:40:02.460 --> 00:40:02.700
Yeah.

00:40:04.080 --> 00:40:04.950
Yeah, it's a test.

00:40:04.980 --> 00:40:05.100
I've.

00:40:05.160 --> 00:40:07.080
Got bipolar, Adam recovering alcoholic.

00:40:07.800 --> 00:40:09.360
Is that a problem for you as in.

00:40:09.930 --> 00:40:11.430
Uh, prejudiced.

00:40:15.900 --> 00:40:16.980
Sam: actually, if anything.

00:40:17.550 --> 00:40:19.110
I think so highly of you.

00:40:19.230 --> 00:40:21.360
I think you're just going
to see right past this.

00:40:21.450 --> 00:40:22.110
I think you're somewhere.

00:40:22.650 --> 00:40:22.980
Joe: No.

00:40:22.980 --> 00:40:26.610
What I play on very
effectively at times is that.

00:40:27.030 --> 00:40:30.450
Women, some women have this
like wounded animal thing.

00:40:30.480 --> 00:40:30.690
Yes.

00:40:31.020 --> 00:40:33.150
But they'll just go and
pick up the wounded animal.

00:40:33.810 --> 00:40:34.680
I think I might've done.

00:40:34.920 --> 00:40:36.900
Often it's like psychologists types.

00:40:36.930 --> 00:40:38.430
And it's always your workers and stuff.

00:40:38.430 --> 00:40:41.010
Like they try, I'm sure they're
trying not to, but they're like

00:40:41.100 --> 00:40:42.630
Sam: people who are empathic and.

00:40:42.930 --> 00:40:46.350
And have, have some, you
know, I think ultimately

00:40:46.380 --> 00:40:49.500
Ali: you probably need to be with
somebody who is, who can see.

00:40:50.190 --> 00:40:51.090
Those diagnoses.

00:40:51.330 --> 00:40:52.710
Actually not crazy, I guess.

00:40:54.270 --> 00:40:54.600
Yeah.

00:40:54.720 --> 00:40:56.190
Yes, you need to be with someone who

00:40:56.190 --> 00:40:57.630
Sam: believes that people can improve.

00:40:57.660 --> 00:40:58.740
Cause you have to believe that.

00:40:59.010 --> 00:40:59.430
Joe: Yeah.

00:40:59.730 --> 00:41:00.600
It's a deal breaker.

00:41:01.020 --> 00:41:01.260
Yeah.

00:41:01.590 --> 00:41:02.700
Like when people say that.

00:41:03.000 --> 00:41:03.510
On the apps.

00:41:03.510 --> 00:41:04.950
I say I'm not political.

00:41:04.950 --> 00:41:06.030
It was like, come off.

00:41:06.180 --> 00:41:08.970
You know, it's like, have you,
anyway, I don't want to go to that.

00:41:10.470 --> 00:41:12.300
It's like, I just cannot because I'm not

00:41:12.330 --> 00:41:15.000
Sam: because I'm not political
is a self ignorant statement.

00:41:15.390 --> 00:41:15.870
By the way.

00:41:20.520 --> 00:41:21.030
Ali: painful.

00:41:21.960 --> 00:41:22.860
Sam: Childish statement.

00:41:23.280 --> 00:41:23.460
Yeah.

00:41:23.970 --> 00:41:28.620
Joe: But I think at this point, maybe
I can reframe it a bit of like, I've

00:41:28.620 --> 00:41:31.740
got some mental health challenges,
but they're well managed and I

00:41:31.740 --> 00:41:33.570
haven't had a drink in eight years.

00:41:33.660 --> 00:41:34.020
Well, that's.

00:41:35.760 --> 00:41:37.740
Instead of saying I'm fucked up.

00:41:38.880 --> 00:41:41.340
Yeah, I'm fucked up, gets you
so far, but I think it gets

00:41:41.340 --> 00:41:43.170
you the wrong kind of person,

00:41:43.200 --> 00:41:43.560
Ali: perhaps.

00:41:43.800 --> 00:41:48.000
Like I found it effective to
be sort of honest, but in a,

00:41:48.030 --> 00:41:49.620
in a humor, like, I mean, yeah.

00:41:49.680 --> 00:41:50.100
Yes.

00:41:50.220 --> 00:41:52.830
The you soften it with a bit of humor.

00:41:52.950 --> 00:41:57.420
Like that's probably because rather than
being so blunt about it, but also yeah.

00:41:57.450 --> 00:42:01.800
Make sure that the key important
parts, you know, the key information

00:42:01.800 --> 00:42:03.180
that you're making this decision is.

00:42:03.720 --> 00:42:04.590
This is what it is.

00:42:04.680 --> 00:42:05.730
This is how I'm treating it.

00:42:05.730 --> 00:42:06.600
This is how I manage it.

00:42:06.840 --> 00:42:09.300
Hm in amongst like giving it in a.

00:42:10.500 --> 00:42:12.240
Just step away rather than, you know, so.

00:42:12.630 --> 00:42:13.260
Yeah, I think

00:42:13.260 --> 00:42:16.500
Joe: that's how I've, I've done
that on first dates and the person.

00:42:16.560 --> 00:42:18.420
It seemed to go really well
and then they walk away and

00:42:18.420 --> 00:42:19.560
just unmatch you immediately.

00:42:19.590 --> 00:42:20.220
And it's fine.

00:42:20.580 --> 00:42:20.820
Yeah.

00:42:21.030 --> 00:42:23.010
But, um, yeah, I was going to say Sam.

00:42:23.266 --> 00:42:25.756
From what Ali tells me, apparently women.

00:42:26.206 --> 00:42:27.946
Can't think straight if a man is tall.

00:42:28.306 --> 00:42:30.346
And I'm thinking back to you
at early days with your wife.

00:42:30.826 --> 00:42:31.126
Yeah.

00:42:31.306 --> 00:42:33.916
And I'm thinking, are you really into her?

00:42:34.156 --> 00:42:34.246
All?

00:42:34.546 --> 00:42:36.436
And charismatic with the gift of the gab.

00:42:36.466 --> 00:42:36.826
Yes.

00:42:36.856 --> 00:42:39.976
You might've snowed under for a long time.

00:42:40.066 --> 00:42:41.476
Yeah, it was just like,
I think that's true.

00:42:41.476 --> 00:42:43.516
Oh, God, this guy is so
intimate and he's great.

00:42:43.516 --> 00:42:44.446
And he's so smart.

00:42:46.096 --> 00:42:46.936
And apparently.

00:42:47.926 --> 00:42:49.456
I should know, but Togo myself.

00:42:51.436 --> 00:42:52.726
I thought it was my brains.

00:42:54.796 --> 00:42:55.306
Ali: That shallow.

00:42:58.036 --> 00:42:59.116
Actually, I do love the show.

00:42:59.476 --> 00:43:01.456
And I think this is not a thing.

00:43:01.696 --> 00:43:02.716
We love that, but yeah.

00:43:02.776 --> 00:43:06.436
Yeah, no, it, it is, uh, It is a
weakness, I would say for a lot of women.

00:43:07.216 --> 00:43:08.446
Sam: I know, I welcome the mission.

00:43:08.806 --> 00:43:09.046
Kind

00:43:09.076 --> 00:43:09.976
Joe: of patriarchal.

00:43:10.036 --> 00:43:10.156
Yeah.

00:43:10.382 --> 00:43:11.072
Like some kind of.

00:43:11.402 --> 00:43:12.782
Daddy stuff going on there.

00:43:13.382 --> 00:43:14.222
That's less fun.

00:43:14.882 --> 00:43:15.482
Ali: Well, we don't want to

00:43:21.122 --> 00:43:21.482
I think

00:43:21.512 --> 00:43:22.022
Sam: probably.

00:43:23.912 --> 00:43:26.942
Ali: I think there is some,
there is probably some aspect

00:43:26.942 --> 00:43:28.982
of like feeling protected.

00:43:29.042 --> 00:43:29.342
Sexual

00:43:29.342 --> 00:43:30.122
Sam: dimorphism.

00:43:30.182 --> 00:43:30.572
Yes.

00:43:31.112 --> 00:43:34.352
Ali: Yeah, like being, you know, someone
that can wrap their arms around you.

00:43:34.352 --> 00:43:35.942
There is 80 is a pretty good.

00:43:37.112 --> 00:43:40.922
Sam: The problem is where's my seven
and a half foot girlfriend, but yeah.

00:43:41.762 --> 00:43:43.052
Ali: I have, I have.

00:43:43.442 --> 00:43:44.582
Dated short of men.

00:43:44.582 --> 00:43:46.412
And that is absolutely
something that they want.

00:43:46.412 --> 00:43:47.492
They want to be the little spoon.

00:43:47.522 --> 00:43:49.232
Some people just want to
be the little spoon, right.

00:43:50.012 --> 00:43:50.432
I think.

00:43:50.462 --> 00:43:50.702
Yeah.

00:43:50.882 --> 00:43:51.392
Yeah, exactly.

00:43:51.392 --> 00:43:51.602
Yeah.

00:43:51.602 --> 00:43:51.782
Yeah.

00:43:52.292 --> 00:43:52.892
And I've had yeah.

00:43:54.392 --> 00:43:55.952
It's been like, I want to climb that.

00:43:57.962 --> 00:43:59.072
Brushing your arms around.

00:43:59.852 --> 00:44:00.242
The word for

00:44:00.242 --> 00:44:02.582
Joe: me saying a few
years I've stopped it.

00:44:02.942 --> 00:44:07.202
I used to say women say to women,
Ah, yeah, we'll go out to that place.

00:44:07.502 --> 00:44:09.062
I'll come and scoop you up at.

00:44:09.632 --> 00:44:10.352
Uh, seven 30.

00:44:10.352 --> 00:44:11.252
That'd be like, oh yeah, you're.

00:44:22.682 --> 00:44:23.102
Sam: That's great.

00:44:23.312 --> 00:44:24.542
It is

00:44:25.112 --> 00:44:25.562
Joe: my theory.

00:44:25.592 --> 00:44:26.852
You snowed cath on.

00:44:27.092 --> 00:44:28.232
For a number of years.

00:44:28.502 --> 00:44:30.992
She woke up and she's like,
this guy's a fucking nightmare.

00:44:31.142 --> 00:44:31.262
Yeah.

00:44:31.862 --> 00:44:32.252
Sam: Yes.

00:44:32.342 --> 00:44:32.882
No truly.

00:44:32.942 --> 00:44:34.442
Joe: Does it even walk in straight lines?

00:44:34.472 --> 00:44:34.922
Yes.

00:44:35.012 --> 00:44:36.062
Doesn't complete any time.

00:44:36.362 --> 00:44:36.872
Yeah.

00:44:36.932 --> 00:44:37.382
It's like,

00:44:37.802 --> 00:44:39.122
Sam: can I pick up social cues?

00:44:39.152 --> 00:44:39.752
What's going on?

00:44:40.172 --> 00:44:40.562
Yeah.

00:44:40.742 --> 00:44:41.282
No totally.

00:44:41.342 --> 00:44:41.672
It's great.

00:44:42.242 --> 00:44:43.322
So that's the problem.

00:44:43.352 --> 00:44:44.882
That's the thing about
falling in love is you.

00:44:45.362 --> 00:44:45.752
Once

00:44:45.782 --> 00:44:47.222
Joe: this somewhat wears off.

00:44:47.732 --> 00:44:48.482
Ali: Then the reality.

00:44:49.412 --> 00:44:50.372
I can say the.

00:44:50.792 --> 00:44:51.212
Yeah.

00:44:51.272 --> 00:44:52.322
Like you met him.

00:44:52.712 --> 00:44:55.382
I think everybody
minimizes those red flags.

00:44:55.622 --> 00:44:57.782
Even the initial stages and everybody.

00:44:57.782 --> 00:44:57.992
Yeah.

00:44:58.052 --> 00:44:58.082
Hypes.

00:44:58.532 --> 00:45:00.362
The other things that you
think are really important that

00:45:00.422 --> 00:45:01.622
actually are not that important.

00:45:01.622 --> 00:45:02.822
Like the height or whatever.

00:45:02.972 --> 00:45:03.812
Yeah.

00:45:03.842 --> 00:45:04.172
So

00:45:04.202 --> 00:45:05.582
Joe: what color jumper they're wearing?

00:45:05.612 --> 00:45:06.302
On the first day.

00:45:06.572 --> 00:45:07.532
Ali: There are things that, yeah.

00:45:07.622 --> 00:45:08.432
Yeah, absolutely.

00:45:08.462 --> 00:45:08.582
Yeah.

00:45:08.642 --> 00:45:09.722
The reality, but

00:45:09.992 --> 00:45:13.532
Sam: yeah, if you don't want my total
dysfunction, you don't deserve my height.

00:45:13.922 --> 00:45:14.102
Yeah.

00:45:14.822 --> 00:45:15.662
The ability to talk.

00:45:16.022 --> 00:45:16.472
Yeah.

00:45:17.222 --> 00:45:17.432
Yeah.

00:45:17.462 --> 00:45:18.512
It's not really not fair.

00:45:18.512 --> 00:45:18.782
Is it?

00:45:18.872 --> 00:45:22.412
And I just want to like, be brutally
honest because I'm feeling like it's

00:45:22.472 --> 00:45:23.852
feeling it's feeling right, but just.

00:45:24.032 --> 00:45:24.722
Yeah, absolutely.

00:45:24.722 --> 00:45:26.972
Joe, the complete disillusionment and.

00:45:27.602 --> 00:45:28.172
Aye.

00:45:28.682 --> 00:45:32.492
One of the big, one of the big
struggles I had in every relationship.

00:45:32.522 --> 00:45:33.902
So the avoidant attachment, right.

00:45:33.954 --> 00:45:36.294
So I would have get, I would
get the anxious triggered.

00:45:36.654 --> 00:45:37.224
Bye.

00:45:37.944 --> 00:45:38.634
Oh yucky.

00:45:38.634 --> 00:45:40.764
They've got feelings and
they're depending on me now.

00:45:40.764 --> 00:45:43.104
And I matter, and what
I do actually matters.

00:45:43.914 --> 00:45:44.214
Yeah.

00:45:44.514 --> 00:45:45.384
I was a free man.

00:45:46.044 --> 00:45:49.944
The avoidant and then the
anxious part of like, I actually.

00:45:50.148 --> 00:45:55.128
not very good at taking care of
other people and, but I also really

00:45:55.128 --> 00:45:56.628
want to be taken care of myself.

00:45:56.628 --> 00:45:59.058
And, ah, this is, this is, this is tough.

00:45:59.598 --> 00:46:02.928
And it, but also one thing
that would absolutely.

00:46:03.468 --> 00:46:04.668
Turn me cold.

00:46:05.238 --> 00:46:07.038
Was seeing a partner.

00:46:07.638 --> 00:46:13.938
Perceive my faults and seeing, seeing
the fault noticed, even if it was

00:46:13.938 --> 00:46:17.028
accepted, I was just like, Unacceptable.

00:46:17.538 --> 00:46:19.098
I must be a God in your eyes.

00:46:19.098 --> 00:46:19.128
You.

00:46:20.898 --> 00:46:21.408
It's like a

00:46:21.408 --> 00:46:24.528
Ali: spectrum sort of like
rejection, sensitivity.

00:46:24.528 --> 00:46:25.398
Yes, absolutely.

00:46:25.758 --> 00:46:25.968
Yeah.

00:46:25.998 --> 00:46:26.268
Yeah.

00:46:27.468 --> 00:46:29.118
Yeah, it would be more acute.

00:46:29.478 --> 00:46:29.658
Yes.

00:46:29.658 --> 00:46:29.778
Yes.

00:46:30.138 --> 00:46:31.188
If you experienced

00:46:31.308 --> 00:46:32.028
Sam: RSD.

00:46:32.208 --> 00:46:32.358
Yes.

00:46:32.418 --> 00:46:32.718
It's a

00:46:32.748 --> 00:46:33.288
Ali: symptom

00:46:33.408 --> 00:46:36.468
Sam: and then rather than panicking
and like, no, no, I'm still awesome.

00:46:36.468 --> 00:46:38.490
It was more like, How dare you?

00:46:38.850 --> 00:46:42.600
Not think I'm awesome because,
because clearly like no ability

00:46:42.600 --> 00:46:44.100
to kind of see the gray area.

00:46:44.580 --> 00:46:47.100
Like either I'm amazing or I'm nothing.

00:46:47.400 --> 00:46:48.930
And then like years of therapy.

00:46:48.930 --> 00:46:53.486
I just like Adam saying, you know, You're
not the exalted being or the lowly worm.

00:46:53.486 --> 00:46:55.556
Can you just, it's the middle.

00:46:56.126 --> 00:46:57.116
Down the middle.

00:46:58.166 --> 00:46:58.376
Yeah, the

00:46:58.406 --> 00:46:58.946
Joe: middle way.

00:46:59.756 --> 00:47:00.056
Yes,

00:47:00.536 --> 00:47:03.566
Sam: leaving the normal world in the
ordinary world with ordinary people.

00:47:03.566 --> 00:47:05.846
Cause you're one of them
and that's the good news.

00:47:05.936 --> 00:47:06.686
Yeah.

00:47:06.896 --> 00:47:08.546
Joe: I'm about to get
there in therapy myself.

00:47:08.696 --> 00:47:09.056
Yeah.

00:47:09.536 --> 00:47:11.456
I reckon you got some kids about
to come back from the pool.

00:47:11.696 --> 00:47:12.896
So I think we should wrap it up.

00:47:13.826 --> 00:47:14.426
Straight.

00:47:15.296 --> 00:47:17.726
Somewhat from the quote, we
haven't referred back to it much.

00:47:17.756 --> 00:47:18.686
I was about to do that.

00:47:18.776 --> 00:47:20.306
I mean the elixir.

00:47:20.636 --> 00:47:22.466
I mean, Allie's feeling like she can.

00:47:22.916 --> 00:47:23.876
What I'm taking from Allie.

00:47:23.906 --> 00:47:26.066
She will extract the Lixa from a man.

00:47:27.056 --> 00:47:30.836
But also give her own elixir
and spread it all over him.

00:47:31.256 --> 00:47:31.766
Yes.

00:47:34.766 --> 00:47:35.846
Sam: I think it's true, Ellie.

00:47:35.876 --> 00:47:36.086
Ellie

00:47:38.126 --> 00:47:41.486
Ellie actually has a lot of
wisdom and insight and would.

00:47:41.876 --> 00:47:43.856
Be able to give and just,

00:47:44.096 --> 00:47:46.766
Joe: you're talking about a more equal
thing than what the quote's talking about.

00:47:46.886 --> 00:47:47.546
Absolutely.

00:47:49.136 --> 00:47:49.346
Ali: Yeah.

00:47:49.616 --> 00:47:50.576
I think that's probably, yeah.

00:47:50.636 --> 00:47:54.836
But that that's, that's not was, that
was not my initial obviously view.

00:47:55.616 --> 00:48:00.146
And I think it is something I've grown
into and through my own experience

00:48:00.146 --> 00:48:01.526
and therapy and all of that, that I.

00:48:02.156 --> 00:48:05.276
Yeah, it is a changing and evolving view
and that's where I'm at at the moment.

00:48:05.426 --> 00:48:05.696
Yeah.

00:48:06.056 --> 00:48:07.016
It feels very balanced.

00:48:07.076 --> 00:48:07.436
Oh, I see

00:48:07.466 --> 00:48:07.826
Joe: this though.

00:48:07.826 --> 00:48:09.716
And the two less than two
years, I've known you.

00:48:09.776 --> 00:48:12.416
If I ever talked to you about
someone and you thought, yeah, this

00:48:12.446 --> 00:48:15.206
is a really well balanced, even
thing that looks like it's off to a

00:48:15.206 --> 00:48:16.796
solid start and couldn't work out.

00:48:16.796 --> 00:48:18.086
It was always just seemed like.

00:48:18.776 --> 00:48:19.826
Chaotic lurching.

00:48:20.246 --> 00:48:22.346
Sam: Outside anything
that involved, Joe was.

00:48:23.592 --> 00:48:23.982
sorry.

00:48:24.762 --> 00:48:25.482
Ali: Because you're missed.

00:48:25.752 --> 00:48:26.412
She loved drama.

00:48:28.032 --> 00:48:28.812
Sam: I believe in your jar.

00:48:28.872 --> 00:48:29.502
I think you can do it.

00:48:30.762 --> 00:48:31.512
January question.

00:48:31.632 --> 00:48:35.083
Ali: Genuinely, I think there's
been, From the people that I think

00:48:35.113 --> 00:48:39.973
have, could have potentially been
like that as a partner for you.

00:48:40.003 --> 00:48:40.423
Sam: Yes.

00:48:40.543 --> 00:48:44.383
Ali: You have not been as
interested in yeah, because it's.

00:48:44.983 --> 00:48:46.753
I think you've seen it as boring.

00:48:46.963 --> 00:48:47.833
And safe.

00:48:47.893 --> 00:48:51.463
And you, you feel more alive when
you've got a little bit of that.

00:48:51.973 --> 00:48:53.443
Psychological abuse.

00:48:53.803 --> 00:48:54.793
I wanted one advantage.

00:48:55.693 --> 00:48:58.573
Yeah, and I was going to out on the
flip side of that, then the ones that.

00:48:59.233 --> 00:48:59.473
Yeah.

00:48:59.533 --> 00:49:02.923
That have, have that also are
like that have not necessarily

00:49:02.923 --> 00:49:04.093
been interested in you.

00:49:04.603 --> 00:49:05.023
So

00:49:05.203 --> 00:49:05.683
Sam: that's right.

00:49:06.133 --> 00:49:06.973
Yeah, one advantage.

00:49:07.303 --> 00:49:10.543
Well, I think one real asset you've got,
there's actually heaps, but I think one of

00:49:10.543 --> 00:49:12.943
them is your quiet, comfortable with not.

00:49:12.980 --> 00:49:15.620
You don't need them to see
you as awesome and perfect.

00:49:15.620 --> 00:49:19.520
You're actually quite fine with them
having a fairly realistic idea of you.

00:49:19.760 --> 00:49:20.240
Um,

00:49:20.630 --> 00:49:22.490
Joe: lowly worm thing
you were talking about.

00:49:22.520 --> 00:49:22.940
Yeah.

00:49:23.090 --> 00:49:25.430
It's like the occasional
burst of ego, but a lot of.

00:49:25.850 --> 00:49:25.970
Yeah.

00:49:26.750 --> 00:49:26.870
Yeah.

00:49:26.930 --> 00:49:27.710
Oh, of course.

00:49:27.710 --> 00:49:27.920
Yeah,

00:49:27.950 --> 00:49:28.460
Sam: absolutely.

00:49:28.460 --> 00:49:31.550
And, and that's why I couldn't
tolerate it because I actually had

00:49:31.550 --> 00:49:36.110
no real self level self-respect and
so I needed the other person to.

00:49:36.279 --> 00:49:39.519
Have that adoration in order for
me to have any kind of love for

00:49:39.549 --> 00:49:41.619
myself now, I'm like, no, I'm fine.

00:49:41.619 --> 00:49:42.189
I'm okay.

00:49:42.669 --> 00:49:43.869
I don't need you to do that,

00:49:43.929 --> 00:49:46.569
Joe: but as for like a
calm and steady love.

00:49:46.681 --> 00:49:47.371
I think I have.

00:49:47.581 --> 00:49:51.661
I think I had that in 2020, where
the, during the height of COVID.

00:49:52.291 --> 00:49:52.981
From someone?

00:49:53.011 --> 00:49:53.431
Yes.

00:49:53.521 --> 00:49:54.271
And I,

00:49:54.361 --> 00:49:55.231
Sam: that sounded good for you.

00:49:55.501 --> 00:49:56.821
Joe: Checked out on that.

00:49:57.001 --> 00:49:57.271
Sam: Hmm.

00:49:57.345 --> 00:49:57.555
Yeah.

00:49:57.555 --> 00:49:58.875
So that's where you
have to dig into these.

00:49:59.385 --> 00:50:02.385
Joe: And I tried and I was already
with my current therapist and I

00:50:02.415 --> 00:50:04.455
workshopped it and I tried, man.

00:50:04.965 --> 00:50:05.655
Did you talk about them?

00:50:06.045 --> 00:50:07.125
Attachment with.

00:50:07.815 --> 00:50:08.535
We tried.

00:50:08.535 --> 00:50:10.425
And then I just pulled the pin.

00:50:10.845 --> 00:50:14.595
You know, They reminded me of
that kind of calm and steady.

00:50:15.195 --> 00:50:16.065
That it exists.

00:50:16.635 --> 00:50:18.255
Ali: I think, and I don't,
it's not to say that.

00:50:18.255 --> 00:50:20.595
I don't think you're capable
of it or you can't have it.

00:50:20.595 --> 00:50:21.615
I think there's probably

00:50:21.735 --> 00:50:22.695
Joe: something if you don't want it.

00:50:23.235 --> 00:50:24.045
Ali: I think you want it.

00:50:24.075 --> 00:50:27.165
And I think you just, it's just
been more, a matter of timing or the

00:50:27.165 --> 00:50:29.865
person like yet, like I said, the
person you've potentially could have

00:50:29.865 --> 00:50:31.215
had that with has either not been.

00:50:31.367 --> 00:50:34.127
Interested in you for various reasons
or vice versa, but I don't think

00:50:34.127 --> 00:50:36.047
it's necessarily not for wanting.

00:50:36.647 --> 00:50:37.427
But I do think.

00:50:37.937 --> 00:50:41.027
You do get drawn into
the more messy sort of.

00:50:41.180 --> 00:50:44.630
Dynamics, because there is something
very appealing about that for you.

00:50:44.690 --> 00:50:44.960
Sam: Yeah.

00:50:44.990 --> 00:50:46.310
I think, I think you've got some

00:50:46.400 --> 00:50:49.190
Ali: Which is not, which is very
human thing because it it's, it's

00:50:49.280 --> 00:50:50.870
an interesting, it's exciting.

00:50:50.870 --> 00:50:51.200
It's.

00:50:51.560 --> 00:50:52.820
Yeah, it makes you feel alive.

00:50:52.850 --> 00:50:55.880
Or you've said that to me before
you want, that makes you feel alive.

00:50:55.910 --> 00:50:56.180
Sam: Yeah.

00:50:57.110 --> 00:50:57.350
Feeling

00:50:57.350 --> 00:50:58.310
Ali: something really deeply.

00:50:58.370 --> 00:50:58.850
Sam: That's right.

00:50:58.970 --> 00:51:00.320
I think the excitement.

00:51:00.470 --> 00:51:02.570
Yeah, it can be a bit of a
thrill seeker and that's fine.

00:51:02.600 --> 00:51:05.990
But I think the thing I keep coming
back to I've thought about this actually

00:51:06.050 --> 00:51:09.980
probably three times in the last week,
you, in particular, that story you told.

00:51:10.520 --> 00:51:12.650
I think that for me, the
big clue is this story.

00:51:12.709 --> 00:51:15.439
You're having the weekend away and
you're having dinner or something.

00:51:15.469 --> 00:51:18.619
And then you kind of like step
outside for a second and then just get

00:51:18.619 --> 00:51:20.419
assaulted by a wave of, is this it?

00:51:21.289 --> 00:51:22.309
Oh, I remember that.

00:51:22.309 --> 00:51:26.419
Yeah, that story you've told maybe once
or twice, but I keep thinking of it.

00:51:26.509 --> 00:51:27.259
When I think about you.

00:51:27.589 --> 00:51:29.869
And your relationships, but I
think there's a clue in there

00:51:29.869 --> 00:51:32.869
for me as well, because I felt
that same feeling so many times.

00:51:33.529 --> 00:51:37.489
And it was when I was humanized
by the partner and just seen

00:51:37.489 --> 00:51:39.469
as just a person horrifying.

00:51:39.889 --> 00:51:41.929
Or like, oh, here comes reality.

00:51:42.409 --> 00:51:45.199
That the wave of endorphins
is starting to recede.

00:51:45.229 --> 00:51:45.769
I can't cope.

00:51:45.769 --> 00:51:46.279
I can't cope.

00:51:46.309 --> 00:51:46.999
Just real.

00:51:47.419 --> 00:51:51.529
Like not having that security,
that comfort with reality in

00:51:51.529 --> 00:51:53.239
the self was just lacking.

00:51:53.329 --> 00:51:54.949
And so the second.

00:51:55.939 --> 00:51:57.289
Reverted to the main.

00:51:57.889 --> 00:52:00.739
Of going where's the next
dopamine hit coming from?

00:52:00.799 --> 00:52:03.619
Who's going to supply me
with security immediately.

00:52:03.619 --> 00:52:05.809
That partner is going to
look less appealing because.

00:52:06.559 --> 00:52:07.639
Falsely concluding.

00:52:07.789 --> 00:52:09.199
They haven't furnished this.

00:52:09.499 --> 00:52:13.525
That's why the quote is really, I
cannot do anything but endorse it

00:52:13.525 --> 00:52:15.595
completely based on my life experience.

00:52:16.015 --> 00:52:16.885
And so I wanted to.

00:52:17.005 --> 00:52:18.385
You know, to conclude the narrative.

00:52:18.685 --> 00:52:19.885
To the question you asked about.

00:52:20.275 --> 00:52:21.775
Falling madly in love and getting married.

00:52:22.285 --> 00:52:24.985
Well, no, I think it's more,
yeah, there's a missing piece.

00:52:25.189 --> 00:52:27.799
Fell out of love because I didn't have.

00:52:27.938 --> 00:52:31.028
That self-reliance and
self-respect, and I didn't feel

00:52:31.028 --> 00:52:32.348
like I could be a good partner.

00:52:33.008 --> 00:52:33.758
And the times that.

00:52:34.118 --> 00:52:37.958
The relationships, all of them have
been at their best was when I felt

00:52:37.958 --> 00:52:41.708
capable of being a good partner and
I wanted to be, and I worked at it.

00:52:42.308 --> 00:52:43.868
It's no mystery.

00:52:44.018 --> 00:52:45.338
It's no coincidence.

00:52:45.638 --> 00:52:46.208
You want it.

00:52:46.238 --> 00:52:48.278
You think you can, and you work at it.

00:52:48.368 --> 00:52:52.298
You will be a good partner and it
will, it will show in the results.

00:52:52.472 --> 00:52:52.802
And.

00:52:52.948 --> 00:52:54.718
it's the good faith patient investment.

00:52:55.258 --> 00:52:59.008
And the return cannot always
be immediate and proportionate.

00:52:59.038 --> 00:53:00.808
Like, so seeing it.

00:53:01.408 --> 00:53:03.808
It's all, it's all in the marriage
vows, you know, good times

00:53:03.808 --> 00:53:05.098
and bad sickness and health.

00:53:05.278 --> 00:53:05.998
For better and worse.

00:53:06.598 --> 00:53:09.718
And it's all instant poll when
he talks about love in a more

00:53:09.718 --> 00:53:11.008
kind of communal idea of love.

00:53:11.143 --> 00:53:13.453
So what happened was fell out of love.

00:53:13.453 --> 00:53:13.933
And then.

00:53:14.070 --> 00:53:16.200
I wasn't sure whether I
was wanting to live or die.

00:53:16.421 --> 00:53:21.011
And it was very, very grim, but once I'd
made that decision, I did want to live.

00:53:21.101 --> 00:53:22.121
I wanted to get better.

00:53:22.121 --> 00:53:23.793
I started doing a little bit of therapy.

00:53:24.423 --> 00:53:25.233
That was when.

00:53:26.043 --> 00:53:26.433
Aye.

00:53:27.393 --> 00:53:28.323
The love return.

00:53:28.863 --> 00:53:30.483
And I felt some hope for the future.

00:53:30.513 --> 00:53:32.073
And that's when I asked her to marry me.

00:53:32.763 --> 00:53:34.983
But then once again, another wave of.

00:53:35.270 --> 00:53:36.380
Uh, can I do this?

00:53:36.440 --> 00:53:37.880
Can I be a good enough partner?

00:53:37.970 --> 00:53:39.020
Fell out of love again.

00:53:39.380 --> 00:53:41.960
And then when it was time to
conceive a child, It was a little

00:53:41.960 --> 00:53:43.700
difficult at first, took some time.

00:53:44.240 --> 00:53:48.140
But then I fell in love with her
again, and then have a child.

00:53:48.140 --> 00:53:50.000
And there's a wave of
difficulty in self-doubt.

00:53:50.030 --> 00:53:51.980
We have your first baby fall out of love.

00:53:52.310 --> 00:53:53.330
Falling in love, again, that

00:53:53.330 --> 00:53:57.320
Ali: comes back to that love is a
choice and it is a conscious choice

00:53:57.320 --> 00:54:00.920
that you continue to make over and
over again in longterm relationships.

00:54:01.040 --> 00:54:03.320
Yeah, because there are going to be
times when you look at your partner

00:54:03.320 --> 00:54:05.180
and it's going to be like, now I have.

00:54:05.960 --> 00:54:06.830
What am I doing?

00:54:07.070 --> 00:54:09.710
I know like, like what,
you know, it's like your.

00:54:09.800 --> 00:54:12.770
Is this yet, or I I'm so
unhappy right now, or I'm just

00:54:12.770 --> 00:54:14.600
not feeling anything to you.

00:54:14.840 --> 00:54:19.550
That's positive right now, but then
consciously choosing, okay, I'm going to.

00:54:20.090 --> 00:54:20.840
Fall in love with you.

00:54:20.900 --> 00:54:21.230
Like, yeah.

00:54:21.260 --> 00:54:21.650
Yes.

00:54:21.740 --> 00:54:22.910
You go back to the park.

00:54:23.840 --> 00:54:25.340
This is something my dad had.

00:54:25.534 --> 00:54:28.594
So he got some, some, some
religious advice before he got

00:54:28.594 --> 00:54:30.994
married from a feast priest.

00:54:31.594 --> 00:54:32.464
Auntie Anne.

00:54:32.494 --> 00:54:34.834
And she's told this story
a number of times, but it's

00:54:34.864 --> 00:54:35.854
always stuck with me in that.

00:54:35.854 --> 00:54:38.734
Like you basically, you've
got to be the squirrel.

00:54:38.884 --> 00:54:42.274
You've got to those lovely moments,
especially in the beginning.

00:54:42.274 --> 00:54:42.364
You'd.

00:54:42.724 --> 00:54:46.624
They're like the nuts and you go and you
take those nuts for your hibernation.

00:54:46.624 --> 00:54:46.804
Cause.

00:54:47.014 --> 00:54:47.134
Yeah.

00:54:47.254 --> 00:54:49.954
Sometimes you have this jar full
of nuts and you keep filling it up.

00:54:49.954 --> 00:54:51.904
But with all those lovely
moments, The camel.

00:54:52.294 --> 00:54:55.774
And then there are going to be things
where those are going to be taken out, but

00:54:55.774 --> 00:54:59.764
you will still have some in reserve, but
you need to continually choose to put, to

00:54:59.764 --> 00:55:03.154
put stuff away and remember that so that
you have something to draw on and that.

00:55:03.664 --> 00:55:04.594
That has stuck on.

00:55:04.624 --> 00:55:08.134
I think that is the reason like,
you know, my parents have actually

00:55:08.134 --> 00:55:09.544
stayed together as long as they have.

00:55:09.544 --> 00:55:12.364
One of the reasons is because
there are things that they do both.

00:55:12.724 --> 00:55:13.414
Very fondly.

00:55:13.414 --> 00:55:14.104
Talk about.

00:55:14.494 --> 00:55:15.544
The positive things.

00:55:15.574 --> 00:55:15.904
Yeah.

00:55:16.024 --> 00:55:17.074
I mean, it's not all the time.

00:55:18.214 --> 00:55:18.484
Yeah.

00:55:18.754 --> 00:55:20.884
But I bet it is certainly
sometimes when they about being

00:55:20.884 --> 00:55:23.194
reflective and stuff, that there
are those really lovely moments.

00:55:23.194 --> 00:55:24.064
And so I think, yeah.

00:55:24.135 --> 00:55:26.985
that is something yet you need,
you continually to choose.

00:55:27.315 --> 00:55:29.475
Those things where you can
fall in love with that person.

00:55:29.835 --> 00:55:29.925
Yeah,

00:55:30.045 --> 00:55:30.405
Sam: totally.

00:55:30.975 --> 00:55:33.285
You've reminded me of a
very, some days that went.

00:55:33.386 --> 00:55:34.946
against expectations.

00:55:35.006 --> 00:55:37.376
You know, you can be in a rut
or just, things are difficult.

00:55:37.496 --> 00:55:38.666
It's work babies.

00:55:38.666 --> 00:55:39.296
It's all tough.

00:55:39.416 --> 00:55:39.446
Mm.

00:55:40.046 --> 00:55:41.876
And, you know, there were
times on the messages.

00:55:42.116 --> 00:55:42.746
Get up.

00:55:42.950 --> 00:55:43.490
And go.

00:55:44.030 --> 00:55:44.870
Let's have a good day.

00:55:45.620 --> 00:55:49.040
And let's, let's be someone
who's fun to be around.

00:55:49.203 --> 00:55:50.613
Let's choose that.

00:55:50.643 --> 00:55:51.693
Let's do that.

00:55:51.723 --> 00:55:51.903
Doing.

00:55:51.903 --> 00:55:52.893
Ali: On your day on purpose.

00:55:53.313 --> 00:55:56.013
And I'm going to be purposeful
about what I do today.

00:55:56.133 --> 00:55:56.403
Yeah.

00:55:56.613 --> 00:55:59.403
Sam: And it's like, I'm going
to walk into the kitchen and be.

00:55:59.883 --> 00:56:00.453
Someone.

00:56:00.537 --> 00:56:01.527
Who's fun to be around.

00:56:01.797 --> 00:56:04.677
Watch this and yeah,
the results are, yeah.

00:56:04.707 --> 00:56:04.887
Yeah.

00:56:04.977 --> 00:56:05.547
It's there.

00:56:06.057 --> 00:56:06.777
But you can't.

00:56:06.957 --> 00:56:07.707
Ali: And you have to

00:56:07.707 --> 00:56:08.517
Sam: make the magic.

00:56:08.547 --> 00:56:09.537
Don't go to a comedy show.

00:56:09.567 --> 00:56:12.327
And cross your arms and go make me laugh.

00:56:12.357 --> 00:56:12.537
Ali: Yeah.

00:56:12.717 --> 00:56:13.437
Sam: You got to want it.

00:56:13.887 --> 00:56:14.247
I want

00:56:14.277 --> 00:56:15.837
Ali: it and you've got to do
it and the thing, and yeah.

00:56:15.927 --> 00:56:19.527
And then the reality is not, everybody's
going to have the capacity to turn it on

00:56:19.527 --> 00:56:21.087
and do it on purpose every single day.

00:56:21.417 --> 00:56:24.027
But if you can do it more days than
you're not doing it, then that's

00:56:24.027 --> 00:56:26.577
probably the foundation of something.

00:56:26.577 --> 00:56:27.057
Pretty good.

00:56:27.267 --> 00:56:28.167
Joe: I think we should wrap it up.

00:56:28.407 --> 00:56:28.707
Sure.

00:56:28.797 --> 00:56:32.288
But what, It's really interesting
saying, cause we're contemporaries.

00:56:32.318 --> 00:56:32.858
Yes, but you're.

00:56:33.218 --> 00:56:34.448
You're still in a marriage.

00:56:34.508 --> 00:56:34.718
Yeah.

00:56:34.838 --> 00:56:35.888
And trying to make it work.

00:56:36.488 --> 00:56:37.778
Um, with young kids as well.

00:56:37.808 --> 00:56:38.138
Yes.

00:56:38.618 --> 00:56:39.638
Add a mortgage, the whole.

00:56:39.788 --> 00:56:41.258
Yeah, the whole box and dice, right.

00:56:41.318 --> 00:56:42.098
The complete nightmare.

00:56:42.638 --> 00:56:43.478
My experience.

00:56:43.508 --> 00:56:47.768
My experience of reality is very much.

00:56:48.098 --> 00:56:49.748
The unbearable lightness of bay.

00:56:50.018 --> 00:56:50.648
Ali: Um,

00:56:50.888 --> 00:56:54.788
Joe: so like that moment you're talking
about, it's like I've found the darkest.

00:56:55.478 --> 00:56:58.778
Most twisted, most intense
woman I could find in Melbourne.

00:56:58.838 --> 00:56:59.108
Yeah.

00:56:59.468 --> 00:57:00.158
I've gone up.

00:57:01.688 --> 00:57:02.228
sexy.

00:57:02.228 --> 00:57:03.158
Airbnb.

00:57:03.248 --> 00:57:03.428
Yeah.

00:57:03.518 --> 00:57:06.308
We can, but we need to eat
some dinner at six o'clock.

00:57:06.518 --> 00:57:07.628
And we'd go to the pub.

00:57:08.108 --> 00:57:09.428
And we get a pie.

00:57:09.818 --> 00:57:10.508
One of those big.

00:57:11.408 --> 00:57:13.088
Pub pies H.

00:57:13.778 --> 00:57:14.978
And then we're just sitting there.

00:57:15.458 --> 00:57:19.868
I know the exact, and then there's
just like, not that much to talk about.

00:57:20.498 --> 00:57:21.938
There's like doilies and.

00:57:23.198 --> 00:57:24.968
And it's like, yeah, mundanity.

00:57:25.538 --> 00:57:26.588
Let's the strokes, man.

00:57:26.618 --> 00:57:27.338
Is this it?

00:57:27.368 --> 00:57:27.878
Yeah.

00:57:28.028 --> 00:57:29.768
You know, it's Milan Kundera.

00:57:29.768 --> 00:57:32.498
They are The lot in this pot is.

00:57:33.218 --> 00:57:34.658
There is no reason to continue.

00:57:35.438 --> 00:57:37.268
Yeah, no reason to try again tomorrow.

00:57:37.538 --> 00:57:38.678
No reason to make this work.

00:57:38.768 --> 00:57:39.518
There's no reason.

00:57:40.028 --> 00:57:41.378
Like, you're an interesting person.

00:57:41.378 --> 00:57:42.368
I'm an interesting person.

00:57:42.398 --> 00:57:43.838
We have nothing left to talk about

00:57:44.168 --> 00:57:44.438
Ali: and that's.

00:57:44.798 --> 00:57:46.148
Joe: It was a 10 minute moment.

00:57:46.148 --> 00:57:48.098
And then what was probably fine.

00:57:48.098 --> 00:57:49.838
I mean, I think we stayed
together for months after that,

00:57:49.838 --> 00:57:51.518
but I kind of never recovered.

00:57:52.298 --> 00:57:53.978
From the existential void.

00:57:55.958 --> 00:57:59.678
Ali: It's just as valid to call it
quits and say, okay, this is no longer.

00:58:00.158 --> 00:58:01.688
Mutually beneficial.

00:58:01.748 --> 00:58:01.808
Yeah.

00:58:02.018 --> 00:58:03.848
And enjoyable for both of us.

00:58:03.848 --> 00:58:06.608
We, you know, we just leave it
and say, look, we've had, rather

00:58:06.608 --> 00:58:09.608
than let it then descend into
resentment and toxic behavior.

00:58:09.608 --> 00:58:12.278
And then you have the horrible
breakup to actually go, oh, this is.

00:58:12.578 --> 00:58:14.168
I think we're done and that'd be okay.

00:58:14.168 --> 00:58:15.518
I think that's where I'm sort of at now.

00:58:15.548 --> 00:58:16.478
It's like, you can call it.

00:58:16.748 --> 00:58:18.278
You can call it and go.

00:58:18.488 --> 00:58:20.048
This was good for however long.

00:58:20.588 --> 00:58:21.548
And that versus it.

00:58:21.668 --> 00:58:21.908
Yeah.

00:58:21.938 --> 00:58:23.648
Or you care, but with the
expectation that yeah.

00:58:24.608 --> 00:58:24.758
I'm

00:58:24.758 --> 00:58:28.298
Joe: really not planning for longer
than six months and I'm making more

00:58:28.298 --> 00:58:29.948
and more peace with it all the time.

00:58:30.065 --> 00:58:32.495
but then I start to Marvel
at my married friends.

00:58:32.525 --> 00:58:33.995
Who've been together for 20 years.

00:58:34.445 --> 00:58:37.805
I really do not in a like
joking or condescending way.

00:58:37.805 --> 00:58:39.575
I really start to Marvel that like, how

00:58:39.605 --> 00:58:41.255
Sam: the fuck do people do this?

00:58:41.675 --> 00:58:44.165
Well, it's, you know, it's the
same amount of work as all of what

00:58:44.165 --> 00:58:46.295
you're doing, you know, like it's.

00:58:46.370 --> 00:58:47.360
like Tracy Morgan.

00:58:47.390 --> 00:58:48.560
I'm going to say earlier with the.

00:58:49.400 --> 00:58:53.240
The episode I'll put in the notes
about the green, yellow, red flags.

00:58:53.870 --> 00:58:57.350
And just some good advice for people
in the dating phase, but it also.

00:58:58.340 --> 00:59:01.850
I think it applies to relationships that
are already established just as much.

00:59:01.953 --> 00:59:02.553
she says.

00:59:03.543 --> 00:59:04.263
Slow.

00:59:04.863 --> 00:59:05.553
Is fast.

00:59:06.153 --> 00:59:08.073
And like break any,
break that down further.

00:59:08.463 --> 00:59:12.123
So apparently in the army,
they say, Slow is smooth.

00:59:12.363 --> 00:59:13.503
Smooth is fast.

00:59:14.253 --> 00:59:15.963
You don't go at a breakneck speed.

00:59:16.323 --> 00:59:18.693
And then that way, if
there's any hiccups, it.

00:59:19.263 --> 00:59:20.463
He doesn't cause a disaster.

00:59:20.523 --> 00:59:24.183
You just, you just bring things
slowly and safely to a halt.

00:59:24.363 --> 00:59:27.423
You check it out, you change
a tire, you keep moving.

00:59:27.933 --> 00:59:29.133
Slow is smooth.

00:59:29.193 --> 00:59:30.543
Smooth is fast.

00:59:30.693 --> 00:59:31.713
Everyone's in a headlong rush.

00:59:31.743 --> 00:59:33.153
There's no time we have to make it.

00:59:33.153 --> 00:59:35.973
Now we're three dates in let's
plan, a romantic getaway.

00:59:36.333 --> 00:59:39.873
No slow down, slow down, slow down.

00:59:40.293 --> 00:59:43.923
You just going to keep rushing to
the place, you know, to get to,

00:59:44.313 --> 00:59:45.903
and you got no game beyond that.

00:59:45.963 --> 00:59:46.413
So.

00:59:47.073 --> 00:59:49.113
Then there is no game beyond this moment.

00:59:49.143 --> 00:59:52.293
It's like this moment, what's the
appropriate level of investment

00:59:52.293 --> 00:59:53.403
and attachment right now.

00:59:53.433 --> 00:59:54.423
Let's move slowly.

00:59:54.483 --> 00:59:55.683
Ali: I think that's also quite.

00:59:55.831 --> 00:59:58.171
Uh, luxury that somebody say post.

00:59:58.891 --> 01:00:00.571
Give family planning.

01:00:01.471 --> 01:00:01.621
Yeah.

01:00:01.801 --> 01:00:04.141
I think that that's certainly
something that, yeah, that.

01:00:04.261 --> 01:00:07.801
That rushing will be affected
by things like fertility.

01:00:07.801 --> 01:00:08.311
And I actually.

01:00:08.491 --> 01:00:09.661
Accidentally getting pregnant.

01:00:10.261 --> 01:00:11.071
Joe: When you're getting yeah.

01:00:12.271 --> 01:00:13.771
The funniest, the funniest guy.

01:00:14.161 --> 01:00:14.821
It's time to get.

01:00:14.821 --> 01:00:15.151
Exactly.

01:00:15.181 --> 01:00:15.571
Yeah.

01:00:15.721 --> 01:00:18.211
The finest game I like to
play and I've played it.

01:00:18.241 --> 01:00:22.291
Not that long ago is let's spend
every possible spare moment together.

01:00:22.681 --> 01:00:23.641
Yeah, that's psychotic.

01:00:27.031 --> 01:00:27.211
Yeah.

01:00:27.871 --> 01:00:28.471
Brilliant stuff.

01:00:29.521 --> 01:00:29.881
Hey, I've

01:00:29.881 --> 01:00:30.991
Sam: got this great new song.

01:00:31.111 --> 01:00:32.761
I'm gonna play it till I'm sick of it.

01:00:35.611 --> 01:00:37.651
Joe: With every song I like don't

01:00:37.741 --> 01:00:38.311
Sam: stop it.

01:00:39.691 --> 01:00:39.781
Ali: I

01:00:39.781 --> 01:00:41.851
Sam: save it the more I
like it, the rare, the less.

01:00:44.971 --> 01:00:45.481
, 
Ali: this is a thing.

01:00:45.571 --> 01:00:47.761
My psych said to me the other
night, it's good to have an

01:00:47.761 --> 01:00:49.141
opportunity to miss somebody.

01:00:49.201 --> 01:00:49.441
Yeah.

01:00:49.501 --> 01:00:50.581
That you have something there.

01:00:52.711 --> 01:00:53.251
Same again.

01:00:53.371 --> 01:00:54.421
Sam: Make yourself scarce.

01:00:54.841 --> 01:00:55.921
Go and have some adventures.

01:00:56.731 --> 01:00:58.051
Ali: Your own life, your own.

01:01:00.211 --> 01:01:02.281
And then that bit is just this lovely.

01:01:02.491 --> 01:01:03.571
It's just an addition.

01:01:04.141 --> 01:01:06.061
It's not the external locus of yours.

01:01:06.751 --> 01:01:09.751
Joe: Allie, I've seen you put the brakes
on something you're quite excited about.

01:01:09.901 --> 01:01:10.441
The external

01:01:10.441 --> 01:01:10.861
Sam: locus.

01:01:10.861 --> 01:01:11.371
That's right.

01:01:11.761 --> 01:01:12.121
Joe: Yeah.

01:01:12.271 --> 01:01:14.851
I'm like, I thought you were bipolar
gal, but you don't actually sell.

01:01:15.511 --> 01:01:16.081
Well-managed.

01:01:17.191 --> 01:01:19.231
I'm just going to chill and
yeah, I'll see him in a couple

01:01:19.231 --> 01:01:20.341
of weeks and it's like, wow.

01:01:20.731 --> 01:01:21.091
Fuck.

01:01:21.121 --> 01:01:21.301
That's

01:01:21.331 --> 01:01:21.751
Sam: brilliant.

01:01:21.961 --> 01:01:22.771
How are you doing?

01:01:22.891 --> 01:01:24.421
You don't have to smoke the whole bag.

01:01:24.661 --> 01:01:24.841
It's

01:01:28.171 --> 01:01:28.351
very

01:01:28.381 --> 01:01:29.641
Ali: much an all or nothing person.

01:01:30.451 --> 01:01:32.311
With everything I've ever
had a liquor cabinet.

01:01:32.641 --> 01:01:33.151
All of that.

01:01:33.451 --> 01:01:36.871
I had a look at Canada hotness,
and now it's like, no, actually

01:01:36.871 --> 01:01:39.121
balance is probably where I'm at.

01:01:39.511 --> 01:01:40.141
Sam: Totally.

01:01:40.471 --> 01:01:42.391
Like you don't have to finish the game.

01:01:42.391 --> 01:01:44.821
All in one go, dad would
always be saying to me, like,

01:01:44.821 --> 01:01:46.441
it'll still be there tomorrow.

01:01:46.561 --> 01:01:46.771
No.

01:01:47.851 --> 01:01:48.751
There is no tomorrow.

01:01:50.041 --> 01:01:51.031
All right, let's wrap it up.

01:01:52.051 --> 01:01:52.381
All right.

01:01:52.381 --> 01:01:53.071
Love you guys.

01:01:53.131 --> 01:01:53.941
Ali: Love you too.

01:01:54.091 --> 01:01:55.291
Sam: Bye.