Sam: Hello, and welcome back to the 10,000 things.
My name is Sam.
Joe: I'm Joe low.
Ali: And I'm Ali Catramados.
Sam: Today, a quote.
Our Western culture.
And many of the relationship experts in it have issued us
faulty maps and improper tools.
We've been told that the love we need is a buried treasure, hidden in the
heart of a special intimate partner.
Once we find that partner, the love we crave should flow elixir, like filling
our empty spaces and healing our pain.
Joe: Um, that's from You Are the One You've Been Waiting For: Applying Internal
Family Systems to Intimate Relationships.
By Richard Swartz, PhD.
I'm told that's books, doing the rounds of the psych cologists circles.
Sam: Oh, sounds very credible.
I
Joe: read a few pages on and didn't really like the book, but a.
Oh, it gets into like, you've got multiple selves and then you've
got a higher self and it's all fun.
Like maybe I'll go back to it, but.
As soon as I read that, I just send it to you guys.
Cause I was like, well, here it is again, this is Alonda buttons.
Like let's uproot 200 years of romanticism from our brains.
And when I read that from Alon a few years ago, I.
I sort of took it in, but.
Love that he wrote.
Uh, just that one point that he's made repeatedly.
Yeah.
He.
Which is that romanticism?
Isn't a natural human state.
It's a set of ideas.
From a bunch of poets.
Yeah, an artist couple of hundred years ago, as a response to modernity.
Right.
We because of Hollywood.
And all the other culture.
I think most of us assume that romantic love.
Is a real and be natural
Sam: objective and natural.
And the ultimate human experience.
Joe: I took all of that for granted.
And then immediately eight years of bruising I was going to say
singularity, but that's not the right use of that word, but it is of.
Being single.
Yeah.
Have disabused me, I think of this idea of romantic love and
suddenly feel a certain clarity.
But I might be about to fall in love tomorrow.
I don't know.
Sam: Well, you were, you were waxing lyrical earlier about
feeling like you're getting.
more and more comfortable and living in reality more and more.
Joe: I am very enticed by re concrete reality just right at the moment.
Yes.
Yeah.
And I'm not sure where romantic love.
Certainly flowing elixir like and fixing all my problems.
Fits into that, but that's certainly how I saw it at the age of 20.
What about you, Ali?
Ali: So, yeah, I very much had that.
You know, socialized to believe that that sort of romantic love was the be
all and end all and to find a partner.
And that, that would sort of, yeah, that was the goal.
Right.
And.
my view on that.
Has shifted.
And it's not that the extreme where I don't think romance doesn't exist
because I think I have experienced it.
And what I think is romance is I think very it's personal to me.
And I think everybody has their own experience of what they
think is romantic or romance.
And I think those are very real, but, but at the same time, I don't believe
that those will fix all my problems.
I like similarly to you, I've been single on and off the
last few years and I very much.
had sort of a, yeah.
Uh, discussion early this week with my psychologist about this.
And we're sort of talking about my shifting view on what relationships are.
And I think.
It's.
my view of romance.
And a romantic relationship is that yeah, you can have those romantic experiences,
but they are not the defining goal of having a relationship and they are not
exclusive to being in a relationship.
So I can have those romantic experiences, but it doesn't necessarily have to
be in sort of the typical monogamous.
this is not a thing to polyamory or anything like that.
I'm not talking about that.
I'm just saying, as in, you can have romance in your
life, it doesn't have to be.
with another person, you can romanticize things within your own life for yourself.
In also in conjunction with other people and that can make your life,
those are the fixes, but it's not that you can't put all of that in pressure
or expectation that one person will fulfill all of those needs for you.
Sam: Yeah, that's right.
It's very hard to
Ali: fulfill those yourself and anybody coming into that is a bonus.
Yeah.
That's my point.
Sam: Yeah, you're right.
Look, it's unfair on both.
Parties to have these expectation.
And you can imagine a scenario where two people have this same expectation.
That's not going to work.
No.
I was waiting for the other to do the thing
Ali: yeah.
To fix, to fix everything.
Yeah, you can't like nobody can.
Sam: That's right.
And then, and then now imagine a scenario where one person has this
belief and the other is more grounded in reality and knows what it really takes.
That relationship stands a chance, but
Joe: let me, let me pose a couple of questions to both of you.
First yeah.
Is romantic love real or isn't an invention of the romantics 200 years ago.
Oh, okay.
They just describing something that's always existed since the Dawn of time.
Um, or did they invent something that never really existed?
Ali: I think it always existed.
I really do.
I think so.
Joe: It's a naturally occurring phenomenon.
You don't buy the cultural.
Thesis like humans, just this happens to humans probably happens to other animals.
It's
Ali: probably, yeah, like a biological mechanism for like reproduction, which
people would call lust, but those feelings are still very real feelings that you
can, you know, In, in that context, it's a
Joe: bit of a trick of nature, but that's.
The loss side of it.
So one aspect.
It doesn't mean.
That's what takes it from last.
Beyond an into love.
Yeah.
Take
Ali: care.
Joe: So, no, no, but experientially.
Ali: Yeah.
So.
Um, being cared for and feeling cared for.
I think, you know, You know, again, that probably serves a biological
mechanism for Keeping the species alive and that, you know, you've got,
uh, The P your, your mate, who, you know, or the father of your children.
Yeah.
It breaks a leg.
Take love would be, you know, showing care for that person, that person
feeling cared for and special.
That's a, still a romantic.
Thing that you could do for someone.
It's
Joe: the same substance as the love we have for our children or our.
Parents had for us, it's the same stuff.
What's different though.
Isn't it?
Uh, to me, experientially.
It's very different.
I think if I have to, my children.
Sam: So I think what's the definition of romance.
I think we had a stab at least a couple of shows ago and I listened
back and I was like, she's on flailing to actually define it.
Joe: Romantic love.
Yeah.
That's why
Sam: I'm talking about like walks on the beach by the Moonlight and you've had.
Yeah, we've all actually had those with friends.
Hmm.
And that's been special and, but he chose right.
There is something that's set aside for.
Um, you know, if you had a resection.
It's someone of the opposite sex.
And if you're homosexual someone of the same sex and it's this
feeling is how I define it.
It's this feeling of.
Us against the world.
It's just the two of us.
There's a destiny between us.
It's a team.
And this all sounds great.
The rest of the world.
Joe: Doesn't stop.
It doesn't matter.
Sam: Yes.
We're safe.
Yes.
Ali: Safety there's care.
There's.
Yeah, like there's a shared goal or shared purpose.
Sam: Yes.
Yeah.
Ali: Yeah.
And yeah, there's a, some sort of connection between I think,
and it is really special.
I think we've always, probably had those feelings.
And that, yeah, maybe a couple of hundred years ago, people were able to really
articulate them in a way that was.
Well received by the masses.
And so, yes, but.
It doesn't mean that.
The reason they were probably well received was because they resonated
because people experienced them.
Joe: But guess what alarm.
I want to say though.
And maybe this quote is.
We take these feelings and then we make these huge decisions,
like marrying someone yes.
And committing for the rest of our lives with them.
And.
Uh, happily ever after.
I mean, I've only dated pretty much hardcore.
Left-wing feminists.
Um, but there's still some Disney princess shit going on in there, man.
Yeah.
And it's still conditioning in those women.
At one, some kind of Disney princess scenarios,
Ali: social, like.
If you look at sort of the socialization and marriage and how, you know, with.
Basically the transfer of property and then, and how that all sort of
evolved and that, that sort of mechanism worked on it's for social cohesion.
So
Sam: you do by the cultural thesis.
But you also have a biological thesis.
Yes.
That's fine.
I think, yeah.
I'm
Ali: happy to sit with both.
I think that, yeah.
The reasons for marriage may very well be more practical rather than
romantic, but that's not to say that you can't have those romantic.
Sam: In agreement.
And romantic in the extreme.
So two men are exchanging property.
Ali: Yeah.
Sam: And, uh, making an Alliance.
Uh, business or monitored.
And that was marriage
Joe: before romantic.
Before modern romance marriage was that it wasn't love.
Love, matches.
Sam: You remember when, like,
Ali: although within your, your class you could potentially have had.
Love matches.
If there was no sort of reason for that you had, you hadn't
Joe: go against the other reasons to get married.
Sure.
Sam: It was not a necessary or sufficient condition.
Marriage.
Yes.
And
Ali: it's, I don't think it doesn't, it didn't happen.
Sam: And in many families.
Any girl who was talking along those lines would have been.
Quite stiffly.
Re-educate.
That's where you get all the tragedies,
Joe: right?
Like, Jane Austin or whatever it is.
Yeah.
It
Ali: wasn't appropriate for you.
It was a part of your social circle or whatever.
I've been
Joe: incredibly romantic in my time.
So the other question.
I have for you guys is assuming that romantic love is a real phenomenon
and not just a sort of brain disease.
That's mean.
The name that we picked up.
Yeah.
And run with for 200 years.
At least in Western culture.
Sure.
I'm assuming that it's real, it's a real phenomenon.
It's sort of naturally occurring.
It's lost.
And then it goes beyond lost into this connected state where
we're safe from the whole world.
The whole world fades into the background and it's just us in our
private universe has crowded house.
Special destiny.
Yeah.
Assuming all of that does.
Romantic love resolve anything?
No.
For the individual?
No, no.
In fact it closes.
Sam: Yeah,
Joe: what I've always chased in this realm is some kind of resolution
that's always felt just out of reach.
Yes.
Sam: That's the illusion receding from your grasp as you reach for it.
Joe: Like we talked in an earlier episode about looking for a magical vagina.
Yes.
And I'll be your friend
Sam: said there's no.
Magical vagina.
Yes.
Yeah.
It's like that person is so right.
Yeah.
So.
Joe: I think the reason I get, so hard-lined about this is because it's
caused me more group grief than this.
Whether it's phenomenon or an idea, or both it's caused me
more grief than anything else.
Smell
Sam: it it's maladaptive.
It's not useful.
Me.
Yeah.
It could be,
Ali: but then similarly to the, the argument you could make is
that it gives some people purpose.
Um, and, and there is an argument that that is not necessarily healthy, that
you make the locus of your purpose.
Yes.
Channel to yourself.
However There are people who are very much done that.
Yeah.
And.
Would say that they're happy and content with that.
And is that experience not valid because they've had.
Loving and fulfilling life and purpose.
With this person, because this other person has given them purpose.
And if you look at some older couples and stuff, Yeah.
Partner passes away.
They will often pass away.
You know, not long after, because their daily purpose and that's, I mean, if you
think of like, um, uh, Victor Frankel and like, yeah, one of your, you know, you
have to have a purpose and whether, yeah.
I mean, is it healthy to have it in another person?
Practically, maybe not because people can die.
People can change their mind.
People.
You know, imperfect and could let you down or for a variety of reasons
that is a risk, but is it, is it a calculated risk that a lot of people
are willing to take because it actually is providing that fulfillment.
Joe: I don't think the whole idea of romantic love is waning in the culture.
No, not at all.
Yeah.
It's going
Sam: strong.
It's like all these people that are freaking out that, The trans
ideologies somehow carried the day.
And that heterosexuality is like this endangered species.
It's like, good God.
There is so much support for, Gender is constantly being ratified
everywhere we look heterosexuality is.
Joe: to log off, log off and walk down the street.
Yeah, totally.
And a lot of things like a lot of things people get confused about.
I think so confused what the most extremely online thing is, has
got nothing to do with the reality of absolute mass population.
Sam: But also just in terms of what's in the online discourse, there's
still loads of heteronormative stuff.
There's still loads of romantic normative.
Like I think it's still being held up as the gold standard.
And so I'm, I'm a fairly hard line on this one.
When I say that I I've experienced romance.
So in that sense, it's phenomenologically.
It's real, right?
Let's say that.
But I'm with the cultural construction thing.
And I think there's some stuff in the deep past in the genetics that.
Is real.
So there's that.
But I think the, the layer of construction over the top of it
and all the movies and all that.
We can't like, and the number of books it sells, like we can't underestimate.
The sheer size of the culture industry around this idea and
how that culture industry is responsible for a lot of people.
Failing to understand why their relationships aren't what.
Joe: Someone sent me a book that's called you are the one you are looking for.
Sam: It needs to be written.
It needs to be read.
Joe: Yeah, it's a best seller.
Yeah.
Like I don't, this is where I get super confused.
Yeah, because people always say have the relationship with
yourself, but it's like, hang on.
I've got to create.
Like three selves to do that.
Yeah.
And then I've got to get them into a relationship with each
other and there's like, no.
Sam: Romance with myself.
Oh, you're overthinking it.
It's like.
It's like, oh, I want someone who will.
You know, let's go down the checklist.
You know, someone who gets me, I want someone who.
Knows what to say when I'm.
Yeah.
I want someone who accepts me.
It's like, you're looking at it.
Yeah.
Well, it's, I'm going to face my
Joe: darkest fears.
Yeah.
Well, yeah.
The other problem is I probably sound like a grumpy old man on this podcast.
A lot of the time I'm incredibly sentimental.
I remember I saw a couple in their seventies.
I must've been.
Boogie boarding on the same wave down the surf coast.
Nearly cried.
Yeah.
And then I get into happily ever after situations and they turn into like
nightmare situations and then they're over within a couple of months, but yeah.
Sometimes for me for a period of weeks, I suddenly think I'm
going to be with this woman.
On the boogie boards.
Yeah.
You know, at 75 on the same wave.
We did it.
We made it.
The feeling 30 years together from I'm 44.
Now the fantasy.
Yeah, I know.
And the way of it.
It's like it implodes, like what to do.
One of those big buildings get Detroit.
You.
You know, like it's like, it's like a controlled demolition as I watch it is.
And it's fucking harder.
44.
It's like five.
Your heart's got so much scar tissue.
It's
Sam: just.
But that's 70 year old couple.
They might've started five years ago.
You don't know.
Joe: 50 years.
Ali: Or however many years they have been together may not have been wonderful, but
they're just, as my dad would call it, they're in a purple patch at the moment.
Yeah.
Like, I mean, if I, I look at my grandma, like, so my
grandparents, like my grandmother.
Passed away, like away.
Not long after my grandfather passed away.
she really gave up, like after he died, because her purpose.
Every day.
You know, to take care of him, to do things for her.
And she did love him in.
In a way, her hot, hot, like, yeah, her whole life.
She was very much in love with him.
Or the idea of him.
But it was a very volatile, toxic, and abusive relationship and stuff
that she tolerated, which is not, you know, not healthy, not good, not, but.
They, yeah.
So like, did they have a great.
50 plus years together?
No, like he wouldn't, you couldn't say that, but did they have some nice
moments together over those 50 years?
Absolutely.
And you probably, yeah, you might've got a glimpse of.
Joe: A good
Ali: map.
That's ones.
That I could have
Joe: stayed at a state of obsession with.
And like bad shit happening, like you describing with the grandparents.
Yeah, but I think in 2024, we go.
Well, this is going down about path.
And it's, it's hard to extract yourself from a toxic relationship.
Ask anyone who's been in one or an abusive relationship.
It's hard when you start to be obsessed with your abuse off.
Ali: Yeah, well, I mean, Walk
Joe: away, you know,
Ali: and I think a lot, particularly with women and looking at like,
yeah, our grandparents relationships, or even our parents' relationships
and what women accepted or.
You know, in a longterm relationship are definitely things that are not.
There are the barriers of like being able to have property credit card, have a job.
You know, childcare, all those things are sort of, those are
gradually being taken away.
So you don't have, there's not the financial dependence
on being in a partnership.
So you, it has afforded more choice.
And so, yeah, we're like, oh, just because my grandparents had been.
I gather for all those years, maybe that relationship doesn't look as.
They're happy when they're old and they're, you know, but like that's
some of the things that, yeah.
You know, my grandpa mothers have told me that happened to them in their marriages.
I'm like, fuck.
It's really, I would not want that for myself or.
That's a fucking crime.
Yeah.
Joe: If he wasn't in jail now he'd be canceled or whatever.
Ali: Really terrible things.
And I think, yeah, a lot of women are sort of not wanting that experience
for themselves and yeah, the.
Even though they're the, the promise of romantic love.
The reality of that is not always the case.
Because I
Joe: think the flip side of the romantic love is the
jealousy possessiveness session.
Well, which leads to physical staff that leads to.
Coercive control stuff.
Sam: You've let me down.
And I'm the victim here.
Is that is, those are the conditions that make that intimate violence.
Much more likely and possible because you have to, at some point you have
to de-humanize the other, at least in the moment to be able to do that.
And you might regret it immediately afterwards.
Um, that's what we hear from men.
That have done this.
But it started with a feeling of grievance and victim hood.
And where does that come from?
And it might come from it romantic.
Disillusionment at times and jealousy and possessiveness and all that normal stuff.
And, and also a feeling of a, you know, a contract that hasn't been met.
And an inability to.
Figure out how to have the conversation about needs and wants and doing it the
right way and feeling that you have no power over this other person, as long as
you use the most basic and dishonorable method to gain power over this other.
And anyone that believed in romantic love as an ideal.
Surely.
If this illusion has anything going for it, it's the idea that this
man and this woman are equals.
And I'm sitting there talking about the heterosexual one here.
So then.
Clearly it's bad enough.
If there's delusion that this person will magically supply me with what's missing
in me and I no longer have any, I no longer have any duty to work on myself
or figure out what happiness is and create meaning and purpose for myself.
This person has to do it all now.
And so that's going to stop you from growing.
But the really dark side of all these is.
You have, let me down, you have ruined my life.
You are responsible for all of my unhappiness and that is just.
The flip side, why.
Why isn't this so obvious to people?
The flip side of you are responsible for my happiness is you are
responsible for my unhappy.
It's so obvious.
Ali: Resentment sets in that.
It just festers and rots.
And does that's.
Yeah, it's the undoing and you, yeah, you lose that respect for that.
At one point.
Yeah.
You'd lose respect for your partner and that's how yet things are you?
Right.
Sam: You put the agency or out of yourself?
On to that person
Ali: dehumanize the other person.
And that's how these horrible things can.
I definitely
Joe: have had a couple of women over my lifetime and I thought
if we could just get it right.
Yeah, it would resolve everything.
And that that might be true.
And I would be.
So happy and at peace and, and all of that.
And I experienced it for a decent length of time, but I would also reflect that.
The worst.
Yes.
The worst.
Hmm, side of myself.
And my worst behavior was in relationship.
And so it's interesting for me.
Is, yeah.
Of not being able to make relationship where it's like, well, maybe
this aversion is because I know.
As long as I stay out of a relationship, I will not access my darkest parts.
Um, they will stay safely quarantined from the world.
Pretty much sell me like jealousy, honestly.
Like my last experience of that a couple of years ago.
That's not safe.
I can't.
As soon as I need to.
Yeah.
I don't know.
There needs to be a level of trust that yes.
Is so complete.
Um, otherwise it's dangerous scares me.
I scare myself.
So that's
Ali: so different to my experience in that being in a partnership.
Creates this accountability.
Yeah.
Behave so much better.
My behavior, my stability, all of that is so much more.
Yeah.
Functional.
And that's why they do call.
Yeah.
Like a lot of, you know, lot of people in long-term relationships.
And in the context of having a mental illness, it's a protective factor.
Just a huge protective factor.
And so the instability
Joe: career and wealth.
And all that stuff.
Yeah.
Ali: The stuff.
Yeah.
The times when I've not had that yet.
That partner in my life have been the Mo that's when I've
been the most destructive and.
And done because yeah, there's no accountability in here.
And so I've absolutely.
That's when I've made the worst decisions for myself.
Yeah.
You know?
Absolutely without a doubt,
Sam: some of my least proud moments are in relationships, but as an
overall baseline, poor average, it's outside of relationships.
But it's, it's a dangerous
Joe: game.
In addiction circles, we talk about.
Taking a hostage.
It's like, yeah.
Um, isolated in addiction and how to control here.
Yeah.
So I'm just going to grab this person, bring them into my life.
Be incredibly charming.
And then I'm going to go back to destroying myself, but
now I've got some company.
Yes.
And this person will get attached to me and they won't be able to get away.
Um,
Sam: none of that's a conscious thought alcoholics look back
Joe: and say, all I ever did was take hostages.
And then, and that's where I'm at.
I use sober maybe now.
Wow.
What if.
I had a relationship that wasn't taking a hostage.
Sam: Yeah.
I think you can earn it.
And I think non alcoholics can do this as well.
Can I look at all these pop songs slave to love Unchained my heart,
like this hostage thing is.
Yeah.
And it's like, that's the whole, I think this is what this author is going for.
Not only is there's like an illusion.
That's hollow and it's taking you away from that.
The responsibility to like grow yourself and be honest with yourself.
But there's also, it's enabling.
this behavior of.
Demanding from others and like, not.
It's a way it's a great Dodge to get away from this obligation to the cell fence, to
the other end, to treat these two people as equals and like it's based in reality.
And these two people are.
Like Allie was saying.
I can see now while you've got room for this idea of romantic love, because.
I think you've got a very practical and rational and
actually healthy concept of it.
So that's what probably makes it seem operable to you.
Maybe you haven't fully given into the complete delusion of it.
Yeah.
You're actually much more attuned to this idea of two people
holding each other accountable.
And growing
Ali: together.
Yeah.
It's actually, it can, if you've got two people who are of the mindset
that they need to work on themselves.
And our own control of their own behaviors and the, and the
consequences of those behaviors.
And, but actually can have an open and meaningful and honest, Relationship
with each other where they can talk through and work through those things.
It's absolutely possible that that would actually be of
benefit to those for both people.
And.
Yeah.
And it'd be a really positive thing yet having that accountability.
Joe: Yeah.
So do you believe it's possible that.
The rest of your life, you'll have more romantic.
Relationships, fall in love again and have that equal
connection and all the good shit.
Yes.
The elixir as the quote would fall.
Ali: And I, but, and this is where I was sort of saying, talking to the
psychologist, my thought that I, but.
I lost earlier in that I don't necessarily believe that that
yeah, like necessarily has to exist in a partnership in two people.
For like for forever, for the rest of your lives, it could be that you just have this
beautiful, lovely, romantic experience.
For three months or you might have it for three years or you
might have it for 30 years.
And it doesn't.
And just because for whatever reason, because life people grow, change, move on.
It doesn't take away that, that wasn't actually.
A loving, romantic, beautiful thing that you had.
And that, that expectation that, yeah, it doesn't have to be forever,
but right now, It's fantastic.
There
Joe: is a line about, you can have a relationship for 30 years or you
can have it for a season and the season could be just as profound.
Exactly.
I've had that experience about three or four times, but.
My problem is once the season's over the next 15 seasons is spent
thinking about that one season.
I'm able to move on, right.
Because.
It's very sticky it lodges in your brain.
If you have a deep connection with someone and then they're suddenly gone
for me, that's a big attachment wound.
I can't breathe.
Where is that
Ali: person?
Something quite recently about like how men particularly do that, where
they, they will often think about.
First love or, you know, are the old relationships like.
The one that got away.
And the way that women don't necessarily do.
You might think about your execute and it's not to say they're not even
in a happy and loving relationship.
I still look back on it.
Why men particularly do that versus women?
Don't.
Joe: Might be a possessiveness thing.
I think.
Ali: But yeah, like women don't necessarily looking
back in that sort of way.
It's sort of more what's ahead or.
Like right now.
Joe: Or they think about that guy thing.
Hey, he was at daycare.
Ali: I was not thinking, then I lowered my standards and that's what
I got for that, like, absolutely.
I'd say that's most women go.
What was I thinking?
Sam: So this is off your
Ali: lighting.
So this
Sam: delusion in might impact it might impact the agendas on equally, perhaps.
and I think maybe women are usually seen as the.
I guess the people most susceptible.
The ones most likely to, Consumer romantic literature and that, yeah.
The amount of romantic,
Ali: like all like smart as it's, you know, like the smart that I would eat.
Is just consumed in from women quite young through to like, I'd say my Nana, like.
So in such huge amounts, like yeah.
Yeah.
There's a huge market for that, like
Sam: that voracious
Ali: voracious rates.
Yeah.
Sam: And yet we can't take from that, any kind of simple assumption.
Well, therefore women are more diluted in this.
They're more committed to this allusion.
I don't think that's true necessarily.
Yeah.
And maybe men aren't spending as much time investigating it and like turning
it over and like, Oh, who's to say I
Joe: don't have it.
There's the princess fantasy as well.
Certainly.
Like someone who does at times, It cuts
Sam: both ways.
Yeah.
Joe: Like I was exposed to all the same cultural stuff.
Yeah.
I wanted to ask you Don.
It might be a bit personal, but.
So I assume you fell madly in love and then got married.
Yes.
Cut to what?
15 years later.
Yeah.
What does that look like?
I'd never gone past nine, 10.
Nine years yet.
And the love, I don't think made it past about seven.
Sam: Hmm.
2009 was the last time you were in low.
No, it was.
Actually, you know what, I'm actually banging up for this.
You've asked me on the right day.
Um, yeah.
I was, I was going to refer to an earlier relationship.
Like maybe, you know, maybe that's a.
At more of a distance and I can be more honest, but no, no, no.
Like.
I can very much answer this.
Yes.
Felt.
On the first, you know, we didn't have a first meet the first.
Love at first sight.
Very close.
Ali: Yeah, it's something.
Yeah, all my longterm path or.
I have dated for a significant amount.
I was absolutely something at first sight.
Absolutely.
Struck.
Yeah.
Sam: And it's the.
It's that's as much love as you'll feel that soon.
Like put it that way.
It's like you, don't the words I'm in love.
Didn't necessarily come into your mind.
But you're like, I only want to talk to this person.
For the rest of the evening and beyond.
Yeah.
and also there was never, there was no point in that immediate.
Courtship.
where there was a sour note, like it was.
And there was like a gap of a couple of weeks.
And just like just a, sort of a romantic evening in a small town by the beach.
And then.
Sort of a couple of weeks went by because of work trips and.
I was busy.
And then I do make it down to Melbourne.
Have another date.
And, you know, it goes well and.
But the vibe is different because we're in the big city now and it felt.
Oh, okay.
It's a bit more real now because we're not by the beach.
Can they still work down here?
And yeah, I felt.
Very.
Impressed and struck and yeah, absolutely.
And I was like, ah, I really want to put my best foot forward here.
Absolutely.
And, you know, I was getting advice from friends.
And like, I was not my usual.
You know,
Joe: did they give you the Georgia standard boss?
Uh, whatever you thinking, just do the opposite.
Sam: Actually, yes, a lot of the advice was don't be your usual self.
Yeah, actually, that's true.
Yeah, actually, I did.
I get a lot of friends who were reality, checking me though, like,
okay, this is a big lift for you.
So, um, Hm.
Okay, let's see, let's get you a facial scrub.
Um, and.
Oh, you know, How are you going for cash, dude?
Like, you know, This is a big city chick.
She's she's a heavy hitter man.
Like what have you got?
Ali: Yeah.
They're trying to help.
Yeah.
Sam: They were.
They were very keen.
It was having, I was having one of the most amazing evenings.
It was black Saturday.
And which is a Bama for lots of things, but, you know, in Lauren
it was stinking hot, huge days.
He's day's trade by the beach.
The whole town had worked hard, you know?
And all the hospitality kids went to the pub.
I never go.
To the pub at that point, I'm like, no, that sucks.
Uh, but I said to a bunch of Sams that I knew there was a gang
that was about five, six Sams.
And I was like, All right.
Sam's we're going to the pub.
And they were like, what?
That's unusual.
And I'm like, something's in the air.
We've got to do it.
And so all of this is romantic delusion.
When you look at it like it's classic case.
And we rocked up.
We were having the dance of our lives on the floor.
We weren't paying any attention to the ladies.
We weren't tuning.
We were just.
Having a good boys night, not in a laddish yucky way.
Just more like a girl's night.
Really.
Ali: Yeah, exactly.
Sam: Very much a girls' night.
And then I did the classic and just ditched the girls.
When the guy came along.
Ali: Yeah.
Sam: All right.
Well done.
Yeah, sorry guys.
Yeah.
I spelt.
I rushed off the dance floor because they started playing.
Blister in the sun and the cover band.
I won't allow the cover band to play that while I dance it's against the rules.
And so I ran off.
Was it little LEAs, little lawn traditions.
And I ran off the dance floor.
To get another VA spelt my drink.
I thought I'd spelt hers.
And I said, I'm so sorry.
Can I get you another drink?
And she said.
Uh, you could, but you spelt yours.
Yes.
Wow.
Oh, you're so right.
Yes, I did.
How silly off me anyway, it comes to the bar.
And then we just talked the rest of the evening.
I forgot.
I forgot about drinking.
Joe: Yeah,
Sam: amazing.
That was a good thing.
I was like, okay.
Joe: He never had another drink.
Sam: Not so unfortunately, Th this rosy picture was soon replaced with huge
feelings of inadequacy on my part, and that I was not going to be able to.
Actually live up to this and I was not going to be a good partner.
Joe: I've heard someone to point out reality to you ever
since that moment, though.
Yes.
Like.
No, that did not happen.
Sam, something else happened.
Ah, That's going on for like 15 years since that moment.
Sam: Well that's right.
But, so what did happen was about.
Uh, I dunno.
Free four months later, moved in and.
Later moved in.
Yeah, that's right.
Joe: Things were different
Ali: They really
Joe: were together.
The shack, stop
Ali: going home.
That's what happened with me?
Like.
Yeah, my son's father.
After a few weeks.
So you're just, I'm like, oh, okay.
This isn't.
Oh, yeah, that's right.
Sam: Yeah.
I've seen that.
I used to happen a lot more.
Yeah.
Joe: So many balls up
Sam: there was a different time.
And I think there, the romantic delusion was going on there as well.
That like, Um, But, you know, and I think partly because instead of.
Taking the more of the advice you'd get now of know, be yourself Watson, all.
And make sure that the yellow flags are all on display and
you've got to work through it.
And I got yellow flags, but again,
Joe: hang on.
What's a yellow flag.
Sam: It doesn't mean, it means.
Ali: It's not a deal breaker, but it's it's it could be.
Yeah.
So it's something, yeah.
You proceed with caution as in like, okay.
I'm aware that this person has this attribute.
Am I?
I might be okay with it if they work on it.
Yes.
Versus like, oh, this is something they're completely out
of is out of control and yes.
It's never going to work for me.
That would be a register.
Yeah,
Sam: exactly.
So, and green flags are like, oh, shared values.
L L level of our level of emotional investment is about the same.
Heard of grand
Joe: plugs.
I've never, never seen one, but.
Sam: Yeah.
And so I can really, I'm going to point listeners once again to
Tracy, Morgan's a securely attached.
Um, podcast where she, she did a great episode recently on
these three sets of flags and,
Joe: I'd like to dress as a giant red flag.
Just on for first dates.
Yes.
Sam: And it's a good gag.
Yeah.
Joe: Yeah, so they know exactly.
Before I even sit down at the table.
Is this a red flag?
Sam: This is definitely a tricky customer.
Yeah, I think it's really good.
To, to be upfront about that.
Dresses a giant red flag right
Joe: now in case I run into someone.
Yes.
Yeah.
My way home.
Absolutely.
And anyways,
Sam: And I think the two of us were very much trying to put our best foot forward.
And that is.
Yeah.
Ali: They even in a long term, and this is what I was saying before about the
accountability, or like having somebody who want, who you are your best self
around, because you want to be your best.
And the things that you are capable of, that perhaps you don't necessarily do.
Just for yourself, but yeah, you will do.
For somebody you care about?
Yes.
I mean, yeah, these, the argument, you should be able to do it for yourself.
I'm not saying.
And for friends and for family.
But having somebody there that actually brings out those
nice qualities of yourself.
It's actually a really positive thing.
Yeah,
Joe: I got into that zone and stayed in it for a few years,
like long enough to have children.
And I stayed in the best version of myself.
I remember like meeting the mother-in-law the, for the first time.
And it was.
What was hard.
It was just hard.
But I was an angel.
You.
And I went for a couple of days.
Yeah.
And, you know, and the partner was so grateful that I'd made
that effort with that person.
And of course, thinking of course, I'm going to make that effort like.
I'm in love with you, like whatever it takes to become part of your family.
Yes, I haven't access to that part of myself.
Over a decade.
So I
Sam: think there's nothing wrong with making that effort provided at
the same time were able to be honest with ourselves and the other early
on and say, just so you know, it looks, things seem to be going well.
And I'm really,
Joe: yeah,
Sam: I'm all in, but can I just say.
I do have a bit of a closet and you know, you probably have a right to know.
Now at this stage of my life, I was very bad at explaining.
Well, this to myself, much less.
Anybody else?
And I just was very much just fingers crossed.
Like let's, let's go with the fantasy and let's believe it till we
achieve it, you know, rather than.
Ah, let's do the homework.
Let's do the due diligence.
That's where I'm at now.
Ali: I was going to say similarly, like going in with that sort of
self-awareness has been something since I had my little mentee be that.
Moving forward with dating in that, like I thought.
Because I did bring my best self out in those previous relationships.
It's like, oh, well, I can keep.
Like, I don't even need to acknowledge those sort of those
things at all, because I've gone now.
Yeah, because I'm not behaving in that.
You know, I don't do that when I'm in a relationship because I don't, but.
Yeah.
But I think actually since then, and being far more honest, About yeah.
Where, you know, whether it's your mental health stuff, whatever
it is, because, you know, having that vulnerability and going into
Sam: the main.
Ali: Yeah.
This is actually the whole package.
It's not necessarily what you will say because.
But it is a part of me and it's yeah.
It is liberating.
Like, you know, I was joking to somebody I'd met recently that, you
know, how, how do you sort of explain.
Like 50 years ago, I would have definitely been a candidate for a lumpectomy.
Yeah,
that was in the
Sam: Kennedy family though.
Ali: Yeah, that that's, that is actually the reality.
I have quite a serious mental health.
Elnett illness and
Sam: they've been zapping me.
Ali: Exactly and you know, but you know, I'm, I get, I have good treatment.
I have good supports, blah, blah, blah.
This is what I do to manage it.
The
Sam: DCT is actually a legitimate.
It really is.
And it's super
Ali: effective for some people.
Yeah.
yeah, like the, you know, basically that, yeah, I don't ex I don't
have any expectations around this other person managing it.
And this is, this is just what I do, but just so also that you're aware of it so
that you can make an informed decision of whether you want to be involved with
somebody who has that, because they may very well have had an experience.
Yeah.
You know, it wasn't positive or.
They did have to take on that mental load of being with somebody who
has, you know, a mental illness and
Joe: yeah.
Ali: If they want to opt out of it, they have every right
to be able to opt out of that.
Did we
Joe: keep that quiet before?
You had your
Ali: part of it was not even really knowing like what it was
like, you know, and then yeah.
But, but also, yeah, I'll just, I really minimize like, oh, well I never wanted
to make that anybody else's problem.
And I still don't.
I don't, I fundamentally believe in that personal responsibility
around managing your own.
You wouldn't know.
You wouldn't
Sam: have done much therapy before.
Ali: Absolutely not.
I would've just went.
Yeah.
Joe: Did you know, you were bipolar though.
Ali: well, so I, I, it.
It first got floated around the age of 19.
I was actually talking to my mum about this.
Like we'll try and work it out.
And then it was again, I mentioned when I was pregnant, but then like, yeah.
But it was, it was a number of years after that, that it was
actually a formal diagnosis.
Right.
Joe: About the same time.
Ali: Yeah.
That's when it started.
Yeah.
Because that's when you develop it, right?
Yeah.
Joe: I mean, I mean, I had spent eight years upfronting
being bipolar and an alcoholic.
By the end, certainly by the end of the first date.
But often in the chat before we even meet.
Your red flag,
Sam: yellow flagging right up front.
Joe: It's not that cool because it's just thrown out there as this kind of hurdle.
It's.
Yeah.
Yeah, it's a test.
I've.
Got bipolar, Adam recovering alcoholic.
Is that a problem for you as in.
Uh, prejudiced.
Sam: actually, if anything.
I think so highly of you.
I think you're just going to see right past this.
I think you're somewhere.
Joe: No.
What I play on very effectively at times is that.
Women, some women have this like wounded animal thing.
Yes.
But they'll just go and pick up the wounded animal.
I think I might've done.
Often it's like psychologists types.
And it's always your workers and stuff.
Like they try, I'm sure they're trying not to, but they're like
Sam: people who are empathic and.
And have, have some, you know, I think ultimately
Ali: you probably need to be with somebody who is, who can see.
Those diagnoses.
Actually not crazy, I guess.
Yeah.
Yes, you need to be with someone who
Sam: believes that people can improve.
Cause you have to believe that.
Joe: Yeah.
It's a deal breaker.
Yeah.
Like when people say that.
On the apps.
I say I'm not political.
It was like, come off.
You know, it's like, have you, anyway, I don't want to go to that.
It's like, I just cannot because I'm not
Sam: because I'm not political is a self ignorant statement.
By the way.
Ali: painful.
Sam: Childish statement.
Yeah.
Joe: But I think at this point, maybe I can reframe it a bit of like, I've
got some mental health challenges, but they're well managed and I
haven't had a drink in eight years.
Well, that's.
Instead of saying I'm fucked up.
Yeah, I'm fucked up, gets you so far, but I think it gets
you the wrong kind of person,
Ali: perhaps.
Like I found it effective to be sort of honest, but in a,
in a humor, like, I mean, yeah.
Yes.
The you soften it with a bit of humor.
Like that's probably because rather than being so blunt about it, but also yeah.
Make sure that the key important parts, you know, the key information
that you're making this decision is.
This is what it is.
This is how I'm treating it.
This is how I manage it.
Hm in amongst like giving it in a.
Just step away rather than, you know, so.
Yeah, I think
Joe: that's how I've, I've done that on first dates and the person.
It seemed to go really well and then they walk away and
just unmatch you immediately.
And it's fine.
Yeah.
But, um, yeah, I was going to say Sam.
From what Ali tells me, apparently women.
Can't think straight if a man is tall.
And I'm thinking back to you at early days with your wife.
Yeah.
And I'm thinking, are you really into her?
All?
And charismatic with the gift of the gab.
Yes.
You might've snowed under for a long time.
Yeah, it was just like, I think that's true.
Oh, God, this guy is so intimate and he's great.
And he's so smart.
And apparently.
I should know, but Togo myself.
I thought it was my brains.
Ali: That shallow.
Actually, I do love the show.
And I think this is not a thing.
We love that, but yeah.
Yeah, no, it, it is, uh, It is a weakness, I would say for a lot of women.
Sam: I know, I welcome the mission.
Kind
Joe: of patriarchal.
Yeah.
Like some kind of.
Daddy stuff going on there.
That's less fun.
Ali: Well, we don't want to
I think
Sam: probably.
Ali: I think there is some, there is probably some aspect
of like feeling protected.
Sexual
Sam: dimorphism.
Yes.
Ali: Yeah, like being, you know, someone that can wrap their arms around you.
There is 80 is a pretty good.
Sam: The problem is where's my seven and a half foot girlfriend, but yeah.
Ali: I have, I have.
Dated short of men.
And that is absolutely something that they want.
They want to be the little spoon.
Some people just want to be the little spoon, right.
I think.
Yeah.
Yeah, exactly.
Yeah.
And I've had yeah.
It's been like, I want to climb that.
Brushing your arms around.
The word for
Joe: me saying a few years I've stopped it.
I used to say women say to women, Ah, yeah, we'll go out to that place.
I'll come and scoop you up at.
Uh, seven 30.
That'd be like, oh yeah, you're.
Sam: That's great.
It is
Joe: my theory.
You snowed cath on.
For a number of years.
She woke up and she's like, this guy's a fucking nightmare.
Yeah.
Sam: Yes.
No truly.
Joe: Does it even walk in straight lines?
Yes.
Doesn't complete any time.
Yeah.
It's like,
Sam: can I pick up social cues?
What's going on?
Yeah.
No totally.
It's great.
So that's the problem.
That's the thing about falling in love is you.
Once
Joe: this somewhat wears off.
Ali: Then the reality.
I can say the.
Yeah.
Like you met him.
I think everybody minimizes those red flags.
Even the initial stages and everybody.
Yeah.
Hypes.
The other things that you think are really important that
actually are not that important.
Like the height or whatever.
Yeah.
So
Joe: what color jumper they're wearing?
On the first day.
Ali: There are things that, yeah.
Yeah, absolutely.
Yeah.
The reality, but
Sam: yeah, if you don't want my total dysfunction, you don't deserve my height.
Yeah.
The ability to talk.
Yeah.
It's not really not fair.
Is it?
And I just want to like, be brutally honest because I'm feeling like it's
feeling it's feeling right, but just.
Yeah, absolutely.
Joe, the complete disillusionment and.
Aye.
One of the big, one of the big struggles I had in every relationship.
So the avoidant attachment, right.
So I would have get, I would get the anxious triggered.
Bye.
Oh yucky.
They've got feelings and they're depending on me now.
And I matter, and what I do actually matters.
Yeah.
I was a free man.
The avoidant and then the anxious part of like, I actually.
not very good at taking care of other people and, but I also really
want to be taken care of myself.
And, ah, this is, this is, this is tough.
And it, but also one thing that would absolutely.
Turn me cold.
Was seeing a partner.
Perceive my faults and seeing, seeing the fault noticed, even if it was
accepted, I was just like, Unacceptable.
I must be a God in your eyes.
You.
It's like a
Ali: spectrum sort of like rejection, sensitivity.
Yes, absolutely.
Yeah.
Yeah, it would be more acute.
Yes.
If you experienced
Sam: RSD.
Yes.
It's a
Ali: symptom
Sam: and then rather than panicking and like, no, no, I'm still awesome.
It was more like, How dare you?
Not think I'm awesome because, because clearly like no ability
to kind of see the gray area.
Like either I'm amazing or I'm nothing.
And then like years of therapy.
I just like Adam saying, you know, You're not the exalted being or the lowly worm.
Can you just, it's the middle.
Down the middle.
Yeah, the
Joe: middle way.
Yes,
Sam: leaving the normal world in the ordinary world with ordinary people.
Cause you're one of them and that's the good news.
Yeah.
Joe: I'm about to get there in therapy myself.
Yeah.
I reckon you got some kids about to come back from the pool.
So I think we should wrap it up.
Straight.
Somewhat from the quote, we haven't referred back to it much.
I was about to do that.
I mean the elixir.
I mean, Allie's feeling like she can.
What I'm taking from Allie.
She will extract the Lixa from a man.
But also give her own elixir and spread it all over him.
Yes.
Sam: I think it's true, Ellie.
Ellie
Ellie actually has a lot of wisdom and insight and would.
Be able to give and just,
Joe: you're talking about a more equal thing than what the quote's talking about.
Absolutely.
Ali: Yeah.
I think that's probably, yeah.
But that that's, that's not was, that was not my initial obviously view.
And I think it is something I've grown into and through my own experience
and therapy and all of that, that I.
Yeah, it is a changing and evolving view and that's where I'm at at the moment.
Yeah.
It feels very balanced.
Oh, I see
Joe: this though.
And the two less than two years, I've known you.
If I ever talked to you about someone and you thought, yeah, this
is a really well balanced, even thing that looks like it's off to a
solid start and couldn't work out.
It was always just seemed like.
Chaotic lurching.
Sam: Outside anything that involved, Joe was.
sorry.
Ali: Because you're missed.
She loved drama.
Sam: I believe in your jar.
I think you can do it.
January question.
Ali: Genuinely, I think there's been, From the people that I think
have, could have potentially been like that as a partner for you.
Sam: Yes.
Ali: You have not been as interested in yeah, because it's.
I think you've seen it as boring.
And safe.
And you, you feel more alive when you've got a little bit of that.
Psychological abuse.
I wanted one advantage.
Yeah, and I was going to out on the flip side of that, then the ones that.
Yeah.
That have, have that also are like that have not necessarily
been interested in you.
So
Sam: that's right.
Yeah, one advantage.
Well, I think one real asset you've got, there's actually heaps, but I think one of
them is your quiet, comfortable with not.
You don't need them to see you as awesome and perfect.
You're actually quite fine with them having a fairly realistic idea of you.
Um,
Joe: lowly worm thing you were talking about.
Yeah.
It's like the occasional burst of ego, but a lot of.
Yeah.
Oh, of course.
Yeah,
Sam: absolutely.
And, and that's why I couldn't tolerate it because I actually had
no real self level self-respect and so I needed the other person to.
Have that adoration in order for me to have any kind of love for
myself now, I'm like, no, I'm fine.
I'm okay.
I don't need you to do that,
Joe: but as for like a calm and steady love.
I think I have.
I think I had that in 2020, where the, during the height of COVID.
From someone?
Yes.
And I,
Sam: that sounded good for you.
Joe: Checked out on that.
Sam: Hmm.
Yeah.
So that's where you have to dig into these.
Joe: And I tried and I was already with my current therapist and I
workshopped it and I tried, man.
Did you talk about them?
Attachment with.
We tried.
And then I just pulled the pin.
You know, They reminded me of that kind of calm and steady.
That it exists.
Ali: I think, and I don't, it's not to say that.
I don't think you're capable of it or you can't have it.
I think there's probably
Joe: something if you don't want it.
Ali: I think you want it.
And I think you just, it's just been more, a matter of timing or the
person like yet, like I said, the person you've potentially could have
had that with has either not been.
Interested in you for various reasons or vice versa, but I don't think
it's necessarily not for wanting.
But I do think.
You do get drawn into the more messy sort of.
Dynamics, because there is something very appealing about that for you.
Sam: Yeah.
I think, I think you've got some
Ali: Which is not, which is very human thing because it it's, it's
an interesting, it's exciting.
It's.
Yeah, it makes you feel alive.
Or you've said that to me before you want, that makes you feel alive.
Sam: Yeah.
Feeling
Ali: something really deeply.
Sam: That's right.
I think the excitement.
Yeah, it can be a bit of a thrill seeker and that's fine.
But I think the thing I keep coming back to I've thought about this actually
probably three times in the last week, you, in particular, that story you told.
I think that for me, the big clue is this story.
You're having the weekend away and you're having dinner or something.
And then you kind of like step outside for a second and then just get
assaulted by a wave of, is this it?
Oh, I remember that.
Yeah, that story you've told maybe once or twice, but I keep thinking of it.
When I think about you.
And your relationships, but I think there's a clue in there
for me as well, because I felt that same feeling so many times.
And it was when I was humanized by the partner and just seen
as just a person horrifying.
Or like, oh, here comes reality.
That the wave of endorphins is starting to recede.
I can't cope.
Just real.
Like not having that security, that comfort with reality in
the self was just lacking.
And so the second.
Reverted to the main.
Of going where's the next dopamine hit coming from?
Who's going to supply me with security immediately.
That partner is going to look less appealing because.
Falsely concluding.
They haven't furnished this.
That's why the quote is really, I cannot do anything but endorse it
completely based on my life experience.
And so I wanted to.
You know, to conclude the narrative.
To the question you asked about.
Falling madly in love and getting married.
Well, no, I think it's more, yeah, there's a missing piece.
Fell out of love because I didn't have.
That self-reliance and self-respect, and I didn't feel
like I could be a good partner.
And the times that.
The relationships, all of them have been at their best was when I felt
capable of being a good partner and I wanted to be, and I worked at it.
It's no mystery.
It's no coincidence.
You want it.
You think you can, and you work at it.
You will be a good partner and it will, it will show in the results.
And.
it's the good faith patient investment.
And the return cannot always be immediate and proportionate.
Like, so seeing it.
It's all, it's all in the marriage vows, you know, good times
and bad sickness and health.
For better and worse.
And it's all instant poll when he talks about love in a more
kind of communal idea of love.
So what happened was fell out of love.
And then.
I wasn't sure whether I was wanting to live or die.
And it was very, very grim, but once I'd made that decision, I did want to live.
I wanted to get better.
I started doing a little bit of therapy.
That was when.
Aye.
The love return.
And I felt some hope for the future.
And that's when I asked her to marry me.
But then once again, another wave of.
Uh, can I do this?
Can I be a good enough partner?
Fell out of love again.
And then when it was time to conceive a child, It was a little
difficult at first, took some time.
But then I fell in love with her again, and then have a child.
And there's a wave of difficulty in self-doubt.
We have your first baby fall out of love.
Falling in love, again, that
Ali: comes back to that love is a choice and it is a conscious choice
that you continue to make over and over again in longterm relationships.
Yeah, because there are going to be times when you look at your partner
and it's going to be like, now I have.
What am I doing?
I know like, like what, you know, it's like your.
Is this yet, or I I'm so unhappy right now, or I'm just
not feeling anything to you.
That's positive right now, but then consciously choosing, okay, I'm going to.
Fall in love with you.
Like, yeah.
Yes.
You go back to the park.
This is something my dad had.
So he got some, some, some religious advice before he got
married from a feast priest.
Auntie Anne.
And she's told this story a number of times, but it's
always stuck with me in that.
Like you basically, you've got to be the squirrel.
You've got to those lovely moments, especially in the beginning.
You'd.
They're like the nuts and you go and you take those nuts for your hibernation.
Cause.
Yeah.
Sometimes you have this jar full of nuts and you keep filling it up.
But with all those lovely moments, The camel.
And then there are going to be things where those are going to be taken out, but
you will still have some in reserve, but you need to continually choose to put, to
put stuff away and remember that so that you have something to draw on and that.
That has stuck on.
I think that is the reason like, you know, my parents have actually
stayed together as long as they have.
One of the reasons is because there are things that they do both.
Very fondly.
Talk about.
The positive things.
Yeah.
I mean, it's not all the time.
Yeah.
But I bet it is certainly sometimes when they about being
reflective and stuff, that there are those really lovely moments.
And so I think, yeah.
that is something yet you need, you continually to choose.
Those things where you can fall in love with that person.
Yeah,
Sam: totally.
You've reminded me of a very, some days that went.
against expectations.
You know, you can be in a rut or just, things are difficult.
It's work babies.
It's all tough.
Mm.
And, you know, there were times on the messages.
Get up.
And go.
Let's have a good day.
And let's, let's be someone who's fun to be around.
Let's choose that.
Let's do that.
Doing.
Ali: On your day on purpose.
And I'm going to be purposeful about what I do today.
Yeah.
Sam: And it's like, I'm going to walk into the kitchen and be.
Someone.
Who's fun to be around.
Watch this and yeah, the results are, yeah.
Yeah.
It's there.
But you can't.
Ali: And you have to
Sam: make the magic.
Don't go to a comedy show.
And cross your arms and go make me laugh.
Ali: Yeah.
Sam: You got to want it.
I want
Ali: it and you've got to do it and the thing, and yeah.
And then the reality is not, everybody's going to have the capacity to turn it on
and do it on purpose every single day.
But if you can do it more days than you're not doing it, then that's
probably the foundation of something.
Pretty good.
Joe: I think we should wrap it up.
Sure.
But what, It's really interesting saying, cause we're contemporaries.
Yes, but you're.
You're still in a marriage.
Yeah.
And trying to make it work.
Um, with young kids as well.
Yes.
Add a mortgage, the whole.
Yeah, the whole box and dice, right.
The complete nightmare.
My experience.
My experience of reality is very much.
The unbearable lightness of bay.
Ali: Um,
Joe: so like that moment you're talking about, it's like I've found the darkest.
Most twisted, most intense woman I could find in Melbourne.
Yeah.
I've gone up.
sexy.
Airbnb.
Yeah.
We can, but we need to eat some dinner at six o'clock.
And we'd go to the pub.
And we get a pie.
One of those big.
Pub pies H.
And then we're just sitting there.
I know the exact, and then there's just like, not that much to talk about.
There's like doilies and.
And it's like, yeah, mundanity.
Let's the strokes, man.
Is this it?
Yeah.
You know, it's Milan Kundera.
They are The lot in this pot is.
There is no reason to continue.
Yeah, no reason to try again tomorrow.
No reason to make this work.
There's no reason.
Like, you're an interesting person.
I'm an interesting person.
We have nothing left to talk about
Ali: and that's.
Joe: It was a 10 minute moment.
And then what was probably fine.
I mean, I think we stayed together for months after that,
but I kind of never recovered.
From the existential void.
Ali: It's just as valid to call it quits and say, okay, this is no longer.
Mutually beneficial.
Yeah.
And enjoyable for both of us.
We, you know, we just leave it and say, look, we've had, rather
than let it then descend into resentment and toxic behavior.
And then you have the horrible breakup to actually go, oh, this is.
I think we're done and that'd be okay.
I think that's where I'm sort of at now.
It's like, you can call it.
You can call it and go.
This was good for however long.
And that versus it.
Yeah.
Or you care, but with the expectation that yeah.
I'm
Joe: really not planning for longer than six months and I'm making more
and more peace with it all the time.
but then I start to Marvel at my married friends.
Who've been together for 20 years.
I really do not in a like joking or condescending way.
I really start to Marvel that like, how
Sam: the fuck do people do this?
Well, it's, you know, it's the same amount of work as all of what
you're doing, you know, like it's.
like Tracy Morgan.
I'm going to say earlier with the.
The episode I'll put in the notes about the green, yellow, red flags.
And just some good advice for people in the dating phase, but it also.
I think it applies to relationships that are already established just as much.
she says.
Slow.
Is fast.
And like break any, break that down further.
So apparently in the army, they say, Slow is smooth.
Smooth is fast.
You don't go at a breakneck speed.
And then that way, if there's any hiccups, it.
He doesn't cause a disaster.
You just, you just bring things slowly and safely to a halt.
You check it out, you change a tire, you keep moving.
Slow is smooth.
Smooth is fast.
Everyone's in a headlong rush.
There's no time we have to make it.
Now we're three dates in let's plan, a romantic getaway.
No slow down, slow down, slow down.
You just going to keep rushing to the place, you know, to get to,
and you got no game beyond that.
So.
Then there is no game beyond this moment.
It's like this moment, what's the appropriate level of investment
and attachment right now.
Let's move slowly.
Ali: I think that's also quite.
Uh, luxury that somebody say post.
Give family planning.
Yeah.
I think that that's certainly something that, yeah, that.
That rushing will be affected by things like fertility.
And I actually.
Accidentally getting pregnant.
Joe: When you're getting yeah.
The funniest, the funniest guy.
It's time to get.
Exactly.
Yeah.
The finest game I like to play and I've played it.
Not that long ago is let's spend every possible spare moment together.
Yeah, that's psychotic.
Yeah.
Brilliant stuff.
Hey, I've
Sam: got this great new song.
I'm gonna play it till I'm sick of it.
Joe: With every song I like don't
Sam: stop it.
Ali: I
Sam: save it the more I like it, the rare, the less.
, Ali: this is a thing.
My psych said to me the other night, it's good to have an
opportunity to miss somebody.
Yeah.
That you have something there.
Same again.
Sam: Make yourself scarce.
Go and have some adventures.
Ali: Your own life, your own.
And then that bit is just this lovely.
It's just an addition.
It's not the external locus of yours.
Joe: Allie, I've seen you put the brakes on something you're quite excited about.
The external
Sam: locus.
That's right.
Joe: Yeah.
I'm like, I thought you were bipolar gal, but you don't actually sell.
Well-managed.
I'm just going to chill and yeah, I'll see him in a couple
of weeks and it's like, wow.
Fuck.
That's
Sam: brilliant.
How are you doing?
You don't have to smoke the whole bag.
It's
very
Ali: much an all or nothing person.
With everything I've ever had a liquor cabinet.
All of that.
I had a look at Canada hotness, and now it's like, no, actually
balance is probably where I'm at.
Sam: Totally.
Like you don't have to finish the game.
All in one go, dad would always be saying to me, like,
it'll still be there tomorrow.
No.
There is no tomorrow.
All right, let's wrap it up.
All right.
Love you guys.
Ali: Love you too.
Sam: Bye.