WEBVTT NOTE This file was generated by Descript 00:00:05.903 --> 00:00:06.993 cj_1_09-27-2024_130432: What's up, Colin? 00:00:07.163 --> 00:00:09.143 How is it going in your world? 00:00:09.863 --> 00:00:10.843 colin_1_09-27-2024_100432: Pretty good. 00:00:11.003 --> 00:00:13.303 Welcome back to Build Learn. 00:00:13.443 --> 00:00:15.503 I hear you were in my neck of the woods 00:00:16.093 --> 00:00:18.173 cj_1_09-27-2024_130432: I was like right down the street and 00:00:18.713 --> 00:00:19.903 I'm sorry for not hooking up. 00:00:19.913 --> 00:00:22.303 We had like just an insane amount of work to do. 00:00:23.033 --> 00:00:29.363 And yeah, we, our town in North Lake Tahoe . They're like doing a multi year 00:00:29.363 --> 00:00:34.203 project to move how the municipal water line is hooked up from the back of the 00:00:34.203 --> 00:00:35.633 property to the front of the property. 00:00:35.633 --> 00:00:38.963 So they can like probably do easier maintenance from the road. 00:00:38.963 --> 00:00:42.143 You can just cut into the road, fix the water lines instead of 00:00:42.143 --> 00:00:44.843 having to go on to everybody's property and schedule when you're. 00:00:45.373 --> 00:00:48.683 interrupting homeowners to go in and make changes and stuff. 00:00:49.013 --> 00:00:51.493 It was also weird too, because the meter was at the back of the property. 00:00:51.493 --> 00:00:56.253 So every once in a while someone from the PUD would like just go 00:00:56.283 --> 00:00:59.863 into your backyard and be walking around in your yard, which was weird. 00:01:00.243 --> 00:01:02.263 So now they'll have all the meters at the front. 00:01:02.368 --> 00:01:07.128 but that meant that either we paid, we would pay like a contractor, like 00:01:07.288 --> 00:01:13.028 between eight and 12, 000 to come and install it for us or install 00:01:13.028 --> 00:01:15.008 it ourselves and do the work. 00:01:15.028 --> 00:01:17.298 And my dad is super familiar with all this stuff. 00:01:17.318 --> 00:01:20.928 He went and just downloaded all the permitting and inspections and 00:01:20.928 --> 00:01:23.428 requirements and documentation. 00:01:23.438 --> 00:01:25.208 And then, rented the equipment. 00:01:25.268 --> 00:01:29.428 And so I just showed up and was the work, like the manual labor for digging. 00:01:29.488 --> 00:01:32.138 so we dug a couple of trenches. 00:01:32.158 --> 00:01:36.188 They had the, I think the frost line in Tahoe is like 40 inches below grade. 00:01:36.508 --> 00:01:38.288 So they were super deep trenches. 00:01:38.368 --> 00:01:41.048 and we used an excavator. 00:01:41.048 --> 00:01:45.508 So we got like a mini excavator that we went and dug like 20 plus foot, 00:01:45.758 --> 00:01:48.358 lines, down like four feet basically. 00:01:48.358 --> 00:01:48.548 And. 00:01:49.223 --> 00:01:51.923 For my house, it had to go underneath a sewer line. 00:01:52.673 --> 00:01:53.753 So that was gnarly, like 00:01:54.173 --> 00:01:57.303 just realizing how much you have to dig by hand when you're going 00:01:57.313 --> 00:02:01.033 around existing services or rocks or tree branches or things like that. 00:02:01.673 --> 00:02:04.693 so yeah, it was very much get up at six in the morning, dig all 00:02:04.693 --> 00:02:06.673 day, even if it was pouring rain. 00:02:07.253 --> 00:02:12.083 And then we got to the point where, we got, my house and his house completely 00:02:12.083 --> 00:02:14.353 dug, ready to go for inspection. 00:02:14.393 --> 00:02:17.283 And then you have to wait 72 hours for the first inspection. 00:02:17.843 --> 00:02:20.963 Then they do the inspection and tell you like, okay, yeah, it looks fine. 00:02:21.073 --> 00:02:21.973 It's not going to freeze. 00:02:22.003 --> 00:02:24.883 And we approve this connection or whatever to the municipal thing. 00:02:24.913 --> 00:02:25.353 And then. 00:02:26.153 --> 00:02:27.863 You have to basically bury everything. 00:02:27.893 --> 00:02:29.863 And then you have another inspection that you have to call in. 00:02:29.863 --> 00:02:31.853 That takes another 72 hours to wait. 00:02:31.853 --> 00:02:32.263 So 00:02:32.348 --> 00:02:32.878 colin_1_09-27-2024_100432: Oh boy. 00:02:32.878 --> 00:02:34.178 Nice. 00:02:34.253 --> 00:02:36.643 cj_1_09-27-2024_130432: like dig a ditch, punch a hole underneath the 00:02:36.643 --> 00:02:40.803 foundation, pull up the waterline from underneath the house and hook it up to 00:02:40.803 --> 00:02:43.763 the new, like where the old main came in. 00:02:44.373 --> 00:02:45.053 And then. 00:02:46.723 --> 00:02:50.313 That also involves like removing an old deck and like taking apart 00:02:50.313 --> 00:02:53.363 a fence and changing all like a whole bunch of landscaping. 00:02:53.363 --> 00:02:55.313 And so it was quite a project. 00:02:55.413 --> 00:02:59.513 thankfully my brother came up and, my sister's boyfriend, Chris came up and 00:02:59.593 --> 00:03:02.133 just, they were, they were ready to work. 00:03:02.133 --> 00:03:06.523 So we got it all done in about seven days. 00:03:07.133 --> 00:03:13.113 And then we had like our last inspection and the mains just after I left. 00:03:13.394 --> 00:03:16.504 a big lift, but we ended up saving probably like 20 grand. 00:03:16.504 --> 00:03:17.374 I think it was worth it. 00:03:18.489 --> 00:03:18.829 colin_1_09-27-2024_100432: Nice. 00:03:18.869 --> 00:03:20.889 You get to travel and see some family and 00:03:21.549 --> 00:03:23.629 roll up your sleeves and get away from the 00:03:23.799 --> 00:03:24.509 computer and 00:03:25.124 --> 00:03:25.594 cj_1_09-27-2024_130432: Yes. 00:03:25.834 --> 00:03:28.584 So I spent a little, like in the morning I went down to Java hut and 00:03:28.634 --> 00:03:32.444 sat at the beach for a bit just to enjoy a few minutes here and there. 00:03:32.444 --> 00:03:34.584 And one night we did go to Garwoods for dinner. 00:03:34.984 --> 00:03:39.314 Incidentally, we bumped into Eric Holder, former U S attorney general at Garwoods. 00:03:39.384 --> 00:03:41.004 It was like, Whoa, Hey, 00:03:42.144 --> 00:03:42.614 colin_1_09-27-2024_100432: Garwoods. 00:03:42.614 --> 00:03:44.474 That's, I haven't thought about that place. 00:03:44.504 --> 00:03:49.164 We have a trip coming up next weekend, like a guy's trip to Tahoe just to we 00:03:49.174 --> 00:03:54.934 usually plan a trip every year with some college friends and, and we try to go 00:03:54.934 --> 00:03:58.644 somewhere else, but in a pinch, we're like, let's just look at what's at Tahoe. 00:03:59.854 --> 00:04:03.134 we've been thinking about where to book a dinner, like a nicer dinner. 00:04:03.134 --> 00:04:07.844 And, we usually do like Lone Eagle Grill for near incline, but. 00:04:08.209 --> 00:04:09.319 I don't know. 00:04:09.359 --> 00:04:11.879 I think our weights might be a good way to switch it up this year. 00:04:12.239 --> 00:04:14.649 It's a little bit of a drive from incline, but worth it. 00:04:15.194 --> 00:04:18.174 cj_1_09-27-2024_130432: Yeah, I think King's Beach also has Caliente, which 00:04:18.174 --> 00:04:22.424 is another restaurant by the same folks, and they have I don't know, they have a 00:04:22.984 --> 00:04:27.954 An interesting kind of like, theme, each of them has, these like really funny 00:04:27.954 --> 00:04:32.664 drink menus that are based on, like slurpee machine, alcoholic beverages. 00:04:32.664 --> 00:04:36.254 So Garwoods has goodies and then, Caliente, I forget what theirs is, 00:04:36.254 --> 00:04:38.294 but I know Garwoods is all rum based. 00:04:38.294 --> 00:04:41.514 And then Caliente, I think is all tequila based, super fun. 00:04:41.514 --> 00:04:41.584 But 00:04:42.224 --> 00:04:43.964 colin_1_09-27-2024_100432: bar of America as part of that. 00:04:43.964 --> 00:04:46.044 And then there's one in Southlake as well. 00:04:46.054 --> 00:04:47.394 I can't remember the name of that one. 00:04:48.064 --> 00:04:49.444 cj_1_09-27-2024_130432: yeah, I think there's actually I don't know. 00:04:49.444 --> 00:04:52.124 The last time I checked there were seven or eight and I think one just 00:04:52.134 --> 00:04:53.924 opened in Legends recently in Sparks. 00:04:54.444 --> 00:04:55.564 colin_1_09-27-2024_100432: The water bar. 00:04:56.149 --> 00:04:58.509 cj_1_09-27-2024_130432: Yeah, the other I guess like the other 00:04:58.509 --> 00:05:04.059 recommendations I'd make to on in North Lake and even in West Shore is Jake's 00:05:04.059 --> 00:05:06.299 in the lake, which is like killer. 00:05:06.299 --> 00:05:07.539 You sit out the marina. 00:05:07.599 --> 00:05:10.799 and then on West Shore, if you go to Sunnyside, that one is amazing. 00:05:10.849 --> 00:05:11.429 Amazing. 00:05:12.384 --> 00:05:12.674 yeah. 00:05:12.674 --> 00:05:16.694 So do you usually go, is it like a weekend thing or you go for just a couple of days? 00:05:16.784 --> 00:05:17.844 colin_1_09-27-2024_100432: Just the weekends. 00:05:17.924 --> 00:05:19.104 some of us are still here. 00:05:19.104 --> 00:05:20.294 Some of us are elsewhere. 00:05:20.294 --> 00:05:23.764 So it's a little bit easier to, Paul, I run to Tahoe and, 00:05:23.824 --> 00:05:27.424 we've got some aspirations for a little bit of a longer trip. 00:05:27.464 --> 00:05:30.184 Like we, like right now is literally Oktoberfest. 00:05:30.184 --> 00:05:34.234 I think it's a big lift to get us to all go to Germany, but maybe next year. 00:05:34.254 --> 00:05:34.644 We'll see. 00:05:35.776 --> 00:05:38.236 cj_1_09-27-2024_130432: so yeah, while I was gone, there was a 00:05:38.236 --> 00:05:39.546 whole bunch of drama that happened. 00:05:39.546 --> 00:05:42.776 Apparently, I don't know if I was like living under a rock and I bumped into 00:05:42.776 --> 00:05:45.116 someone and they were like, have you heard about what's going on with WordPress? 00:05:45.486 --> 00:05:47.226 I'm like, what WordPress drama? 00:05:47.316 --> 00:05:47.546 Like 00:05:47.816 --> 00:05:48.486 colin_1_09-27-2024_100432: Yeah. 00:05:48.726 --> 00:05:51.056 so I will try to explain this really quickly. 00:05:51.626 --> 00:05:53.266 It is definitely drama. 00:05:53.286 --> 00:05:58.426 It's hard to watch because, it's I think you and I are both very familiar with 00:05:58.426 --> 00:06:02.766 the Rails community and the Laravel community and WordPress has its own 00:06:02.766 --> 00:06:08.416 community and I very much owe a lot of my early career to WordPress and to Rails. 00:06:08.456 --> 00:06:09.966 I kind of bounce between the two. 00:06:10.436 --> 00:06:12.229 and And the community is super important. 00:06:12.259 --> 00:06:15.959 And what, I think that the tricky thing with all of these is that 00:06:15.959 --> 00:06:21.569 they're like open source platforms with some commercialization of you 00:06:21.569 --> 00:06:25.619 have hosts, you have plugins, you have theming, you have all this stuff 00:06:25.619 --> 00:06:26.949 that people could spend money on. 00:06:26.949 --> 00:06:31.369 You have agencies who are building and, billing out time and materials for 00:06:31.369 --> 00:06:33.339 building someone a website on WordPress. 00:06:33.339 --> 00:06:35.839 You have WooCommerce, trying to go up against Shopify. 00:06:35.849 --> 00:06:37.659 Like it's just this whole ecosystem. 00:06:37.699 --> 00:06:38.119 And. 00:06:38.789 --> 00:06:41.794 It took me a minute to fully understand because like there's a lot of 00:06:41.794 --> 00:06:44.274 complexity in how WordPress works. 00:06:44.274 --> 00:06:47.564 And we maybe can tease this out into another episode of you have the 00:06:47.564 --> 00:06:52.464 WordPress projects, org, you have the WordPress foundation, you have 00:06:52.494 --> 00:06:55.694 automatic, which is fully run by Matt. 00:06:56.844 --> 00:06:59.224 And they've raised VC and all sorts of other things. 00:06:59.594 --> 00:07:03.454 You have woo, which I think is owned by automatic and automatic has been 00:07:03.454 --> 00:07:05.394 buying up some other things as well. 00:07:05.854 --> 00:07:08.344 and like, where do all those lines cross? 00:07:08.544 --> 00:07:10.124 Where, what are the boundaries? 00:07:10.424 --> 00:07:16.024 So this all started with Matt basically saying that. 00:07:16.204 --> 00:07:22.014 WP Engine misuses WordPress and they like disabled, like version history 00:07:22.034 --> 00:07:25.334 on posts just to save money because like they don't want to have all this 00:07:25.344 --> 00:07:29.434 versioning of all the posts on WP Engine and he basically wrote a blog post 00:07:29.434 --> 00:07:31.524 calling WP Engine a cancer to WordPress. 00:07:31.784 --> 00:07:32.394 Which, 00:07:33.494 --> 00:07:37.844 we'll post some links, I'll post a link to the WordPress Drama Explained article 00:07:37.844 --> 00:07:43.459 from TechCrunch but they basically then did a cease and desist to Mullenweg and 00:07:43.459 --> 00:07:45.609 to automatic to withdraw their comments. 00:07:46.019 --> 00:07:49.179 And they basically were like, I guess in his article, they also called out, 00:07:49.229 --> 00:07:55.819 Matt calls out that the WP engine is misusing the WP brand and that WP engine 00:07:56.009 --> 00:07:58.129 is not distinguishable from WordPress. 00:07:58.129 --> 00:07:59.109 And that, they're not allowed. 00:07:59.804 --> 00:08:04.484 A lot of legal online legal scholars have dug through and like it specifically 00:08:04.484 --> 00:08:07.944 calls out in the WordPress foundation that WP is not covered by the 00:08:07.994 --> 00:08:08.124 cj_1_09-27-2024_130432: Oof. 00:08:08.214 --> 00:08:08.474 colin_1_09-27-2024_100432: framework. 00:08:09.034 --> 00:08:14.634 and you have a million plugins that are called WP this WP that, you have 00:08:14.664 --> 00:08:18.694 plugins, you have themes, you have theme marketplaces that use the WP brand, like 00:08:18.724 --> 00:08:22.644 as instead of WordPress, And this one's an interesting one, because I've been a 00:08:22.884 --> 00:08:25.234 WP Engine customer for a really long time. 00:08:25.554 --> 00:08:27.144 We used it at Strava. 00:08:27.524 --> 00:08:33.747 We were very high paying customers at Strava, and they were one of the best. 00:08:33.927 --> 00:08:36.587 They still, I would still say they're the best WordPress hosts. 00:08:36.597 --> 00:08:40.107 So a lot of people are like, we don't know which side to choose in this. 00:08:40.587 --> 00:08:42.117 but it only ramped up from there. 00:08:42.117 --> 00:08:43.122 So Matt basically took it. 00:08:43.222 --> 00:08:46.912 Said that he was going to go nuclear scorched earth, against them unless 00:08:46.912 --> 00:08:50.832 they agreed to pay, essentially like a license, for the trademark 00:08:50.892 --> 00:08:52.502 and a percentage of revenue. 00:08:53.077 --> 00:08:57.427 fast forward, they basically said no, I guess some other drama has come 00:08:57.427 --> 00:09:02.267 out in that, in WooCommerce, when things go through Stripe, there's some 00:09:02.267 --> 00:09:07.507 sort of Stripe partner ID that Woo uses to actually make a percentage 00:09:07.507 --> 00:09:09.397 of revenue off of all the Stripes. 00:09:09.642 --> 00:09:11.752 Purchases that happen on WooCommerce. 00:09:12.232 --> 00:09:14.992 it turns out, WP Engine has their own partner ID and they swapped 00:09:14.992 --> 00:09:17.182 it out for theirs instead of Woo. 00:09:17.502 --> 00:09:20.672 that means Automattic isn't making any money on any of the purchases 00:09:20.672 --> 00:09:22.672 on WooCommerce through WP Engine. 00:09:23.142 --> 00:09:26.172 Which no one really knew, I think, that was happening, 00:09:26.212 --> 00:09:27.602 even on the Automattic side. 00:09:28.122 --> 00:09:32.792 but then WordPress blocked, All access to plugins on wordpress. 00:09:32.882 --> 00:09:35.122 com to WP Engine customers. 00:09:35.772 --> 00:09:37.762 so it's gotten pretty silly. 00:09:38.042 --> 00:09:40.402 It makes Matt and automatic look really bad. 00:09:40.402 --> 00:09:44.242 In my opinion, I think some people think WP Engine is the bad guy here. 00:09:44.657 --> 00:09:49.097 But it's fully in their right to take this open source software and 00:09:49.117 --> 00:09:51.657 offer very specific bespoke hosting. 00:09:51.687 --> 00:09:56.037 And I think in some of the language that Matt uses, it gets pretty brutal. 00:09:56.037 --> 00:10:00.777 Like he calls it like, I'll have to find the actual link, but he does call it 00:10:00.797 --> 00:10:05.032 like some sort of like bastardization fork of WordPress, which You're 00:10:05.032 --> 00:10:07.092 in your right to fork WordPress. 00:10:07.102 --> 00:10:11.142 WordPress itself existed and came off of a fork. 00:10:11.232 --> 00:10:15.292 the WordPress does follow GPL too, I believe. 00:10:15.292 --> 00:10:17.382 And it's not MIT licensed. 00:10:17.382 --> 00:10:20.382 So there are, limitations and there are things you need to do. 00:10:20.382 --> 00:10:22.382 it's you're supposed to contribute back. 00:10:22.502 --> 00:10:27.602 You can't, I'm not super familiar with all the legalities of it, but it is not 00:10:27.602 --> 00:10:29.722 like a full car launch, like MIT license. 00:10:29.732 --> 00:10:34.162 So there are some rules around it, but when you're running like 00:10:34.182 --> 00:10:37.862 40 percent of the internet, this is a bad look to your community 00:10:38.289 --> 00:10:42.099 cj_1_09-27-2024_130432: it's wild to see how many sites are running WordPress. 00:10:42.309 --> 00:10:47.599 my, my personal blog was on WordPress for many years and it's just such an 00:10:47.599 --> 00:10:53.199 easy, like CRM, if all you want as a blog or like a news situation, it's so 00:10:53.199 --> 00:10:58.089 easy to get up and running, but the, this whole story actually also reminds 00:10:58.089 --> 00:11:00.549 me of the rails world talk that I did. 00:11:00.839 --> 00:11:01.909 David just gave. 00:11:01.939 --> 00:11:03.439 And so we'll talk about that next time. 00:11:03.439 --> 00:11:08.874 But like this whole, there's definitely like this trend of framework or open 00:11:08.874 --> 00:11:14.551 source, system maintainers that now want to try to make a viable path forward 00:11:14.551 --> 00:11:16.471 that doesn't necessarily depend on VC. 00:11:16.471 --> 00:11:17.921 And so how do you commercialize? 00:11:18.281 --> 00:11:21.291 Or have some sort of like open source thing that if people want, 00:11:21.291 --> 00:11:22.201 they can run it on their own. 00:11:22.201 --> 00:11:24.841 But also, you can make a business out of it. 00:11:25.061 --> 00:11:28.091 And it's really interesting watching how everyone is like 00:11:28.091 --> 00:11:32.221 taking different approaches to this from, 37 signals doing their thing. 00:11:32.441 --> 00:11:37.111 Trying to build products and ship them and do their once, once, situation 00:11:37.111 --> 00:11:40.701 versus Laravel launching their own, like Laravel hosting versus 00:11:41.091 --> 00:11:42.131 colin_1_09-27-2024_100432: and raising money. 00:11:42.361 --> 00:11:42.581 cj_1_09-27-2024_130432: yeah. 00:11:42.581 --> 00:11:46.131 And raising tons of funding and you look at Vercel and what's going on with 00:11:46.131 --> 00:11:50.881 the next JS ecosystem and then just gobbling up a whole bunch of JavaScript, 00:11:51.061 --> 00:11:55.101 Like giant JavaScript maintainers and frameworks and becoming the host 00:11:55.131 --> 00:11:57.861 and provider for those packages. 00:11:57.871 --> 00:11:59.041 It's really interesting. 00:12:00.071 --> 00:12:02.151 and it's unfortunate that they're fighting and that there isn't like 00:12:02.151 --> 00:12:05.231 a, smooth way to go about this. 00:12:05.251 --> 00:12:06.571 It's interesting too, because. 00:12:06.991 --> 00:12:11.693 The open source maintainer, I think probably feels like, Hey, I gave you 00:12:11.693 --> 00:12:13.593 a gift, I gave you this giant gift. 00:12:13.593 --> 00:12:16.610 Why aren't you being more friendly or whatever, if you're a business that's 00:12:16.720 --> 00:12:20.820 making so much money off of this, I think I heard too, that one of the, one 00:12:20.820 --> 00:12:25.510 of the points of contention was that the investors in WP engine, like one 00:12:25.510 --> 00:12:29.295 of the investors, like never gave any money to the WordPress foundation or 00:12:29.295 --> 00:12:32.675 something like that, like there was no money flowing back into the open source, 00:12:32.798 --> 00:12:33.848 I don't know how I feel about that. 00:12:33.848 --> 00:12:39.241 I don't think it should be required in any regard, but I also think, Hey, 00:12:39.251 --> 00:12:43.151 if your entire business is built on this open source thing, like maybe it 00:12:43.151 --> 00:12:47.571 would be a good idea to help support and sponsor the maintainer so that 00:12:47.581 --> 00:12:49.741 they can have a sustainable future. 00:12:50.701 --> 00:12:52.941 It is, yeah, it is a messy for sure. 00:12:53.176 --> 00:12:55.066 colin_1_09-27-2024_100432: and I think that was the criticisms was, 00:12:55.116 --> 00:12:58.076 Oh, is this mean the automatics not in a good financial spot? 00:12:58.086 --> 00:12:59.936 Matt's of course we are. 00:13:00.016 --> 00:13:01.156 It's not about that. 00:13:01.156 --> 00:13:07.736 And I do feel it's similar where you have DHH and Rails and Matt 00:13:07.766 --> 00:13:09.206 and WordPress, both of them. 00:13:09.476 --> 00:13:11.266 Rails is not, is not David. 00:13:11.696 --> 00:13:11.886 And 00:13:11.886 --> 00:13:12.936 WordPress is not Matt. 00:13:13.756 --> 00:13:17.506 Do Matt and DHH work on their respective projects? 00:13:17.576 --> 00:13:18.326 Absolutely. 00:13:18.751 --> 00:13:23.151 But, they are not monoliths unto themselves, and I think, when we get into 00:13:23.151 --> 00:13:27.181 it in the Railsworld keynote, you can see, just because Dave doesn't like something, 00:13:27.181 --> 00:13:30.861 he's gonna go scorch earth and destroy it, and that's what Matt is doing here, too. 00:13:31.161 --> 00:13:34.051 The language is clearly didn't go by a PR team. 00:13:34.881 --> 00:13:38.651 Take your CEO off of, off the blog post publishing button. 00:13:38.981 --> 00:13:39.481 We get it. 00:13:39.481 --> 00:13:40.831 You made the publishing button. 00:13:40.841 --> 00:13:42.661 So it's a really weird thing. 00:13:42.661 --> 00:13:45.791 It's just like someone woke up on the wrong side of the bed, 00:13:45.811 --> 00:13:47.411 had a little too much coffee. 00:13:47.431 --> 00:13:48.571 And I get it. 00:13:48.601 --> 00:13:48.901 there 00:13:48.901 --> 00:13:53.091 are times when people will get under my skin and I'm like, okay, this is the 00:13:53.091 --> 00:13:55.011 snarky version of the response back. 00:13:55.331 --> 00:13:57.431 Now let's write the less snarky version. 00:13:57.811 --> 00:14:01.791 and, But you're a representative of all of that community. 00:14:01.831 --> 00:14:05.161 And I think some people have been grappling with that in the DHH side. 00:14:05.481 --> 00:14:10.181 I look at Laravel and I'm like, I wish like I was part of the Laravel community. 00:14:10.191 --> 00:14:11.861 Like it's pretty sweet over there. 00:14:12.131 --> 00:14:13.071 do they have issues? 00:14:13.071 --> 00:14:13.471 Sure. 00:14:13.521 --> 00:14:14.381 Like whatever. 00:14:14.441 --> 00:14:18.021 But, I think Silverlake is actually a private equity firm 00:14:18.031 --> 00:14:20.201 that I think now owns WP Engine. 00:14:20.641 --> 00:14:23.511 And so the, that criticism of, they like maybe. 00:14:23.871 --> 00:14:27.591 contribute 40 hours of time back to WordPress a week, like one, 00:14:27.621 --> 00:14:30.291 one person's time a week, which I think is, it's not nothing. 00:14:30.761 --> 00:14:35.431 but then the idea that you're going to block access to, so 00:14:35.431 --> 00:14:38.141 anyone who was a WP engine customer could not install W wordpress. 00:14:38.811 --> 00:14:41.481 org plugins, which is like where you go get plugins from. 00:14:42.151 --> 00:14:46.201 someone then wrote a Cloudflare worker to proxy traffic around. 00:14:47.666 --> 00:14:51.756 And Matt starts attacking this person, this developer, like, why are you 00:14:51.766 --> 00:14:53.426 helping the private equity firms? 00:14:53.846 --> 00:14:57.246 And then the same guy goes back, like, why are you doing this at all? 00:14:57.816 --> 00:15:02.496 And then I think WP Engine went and just wrote their own cloud player proxy around 00:15:02.496 --> 00:15:02.956 it too. 00:15:02.976 --> 00:15:05.706 you're just, it's a shell game, you're moving the goal posts. 00:15:06.306 --> 00:15:09.926 If it really does come down to this, Stripe thing, I have a 00:15:09.926 --> 00:15:11.516 feeling it has more to do with that. 00:15:11.516 --> 00:15:14.276 And they're just trying to, pound the table a little bit and make 00:15:14.276 --> 00:15:19.376 it sound scary, but WP Engine can go toe to toe, I think, with them, 00:15:19.386 --> 00:15:21.036 so it'll be interesting to watch. 00:15:21.486 --> 00:15:26.376 I also, I'm like, I could never go back to WordPress, personally, just because 00:15:26.796 --> 00:15:30.316 some of the things that they've done, it feels like it's time for a new WordPress. 00:15:30.356 --> 00:15:30.866 it does. 00:15:31.126 --> 00:15:34.086 Unfortunately, you have 40 percent of the internet running on it, and so 00:15:34.086 --> 00:15:37.166 what does a new WordPress look like? 00:15:37.216 --> 00:15:39.106 we have things like Statimatic, Satamic? 00:15:40.436 --> 00:15:40.686 Yeah. 00:15:40.741 --> 00:15:42.551 cj_1_09-27-2024_130432: statin, yeah, statin, yeah. 00:15:42.726 --> 00:15:46.046 Yeah, 00:15:46.481 --> 00:15:49.541 colin_1_09-27-2024_100432: On Laravel, and there's been a lot of talk about how 00:15:49.541 --> 00:15:51.351 there isn't like an equivalent in Rails. 00:15:51.401 --> 00:15:53.071 and so that's been piquing my interest. 00:15:53.371 --> 00:15:56.431 I haven't used Statimix, so I want to pull it up. 00:15:56.431 --> 00:15:59.481 I know Justin Jackson's a fan of it and others. 00:15:59.541 --> 00:16:02.491 yeah, that's the drama and the update in the CMS world. 00:16:03.065 --> 00:16:05.955 cj_1_09-27-2024_130432: I guess one final thought is that it reminds me of all 00:16:05.955 --> 00:16:07.635 the drama that happened with Reddit too. 00:16:07.925 --> 00:16:11.045 It's in a similar vein where like Reddit shut off developer access. 00:16:11.575 --> 00:16:15.405 And I think that was them like setting up a moat and protecting themselves 00:16:15.405 --> 00:16:19.425 from, like LLMs coming and just like hammering them to pull content out. 00:16:19.465 --> 00:16:23.285 But it definitely feels in a similar vein where There are certain companies 00:16:23.285 --> 00:16:27.715 are making moves that are, yeah, changing the landscape and how, yeah, 00:16:27.845 --> 00:16:30.425 how major pieces of the internet are working, which is interesting. 00:16:31.155 --> 00:16:32.565 colin_1_09-27-2024_100432: and I think the thing that we'll talk 00:16:32.575 --> 00:16:36.135 about more in the Rails world keynote is it's almost oh, anyone can make 00:16:36.135 --> 00:16:39.215 money with this, but don't make too much money because that's our job. 00:16:39.680 --> 00:16:42.340 And what 37 signals wants to make lots of money. 00:16:42.360 --> 00:16:47.460 But if you're out there trying to be a pass for rails, can't do that. 00:16:47.460 --> 00:16:48.970 Cause you should just be running. 00:16:49.040 --> 00:16:52.710 You should be running rails on a computer under your desk. 00:16:53.190 --> 00:16:55.470 And you have to do one man framework. 00:16:55.470 --> 00:16:59.010 Like everything has to be under your desk and no, I don't want that. 00:16:59.090 --> 00:17:02.330 I want Heroku of 2012 is what I really want. 00:17:02.800 --> 00:17:05.370 I don't want Heroku of today, but same with WordPress. 00:17:05.690 --> 00:17:06.190 Oh. 00:17:06.535 --> 00:17:10.615 How dare they make more money or who knows if they make more money, but how 00:17:10.615 --> 00:17:13.075 dare they be successful, and use WP. 00:17:13.425 --> 00:17:14.765 If it was called WordPress engine, 00:17:15.595 --> 00:17:15.825 cj_1_09-27-2024_130432: Yeah. 00:17:16.175 --> 00:17:16.755 colin_1_09-27-2024_100432: go to town. 00:17:17.375 --> 00:17:21.425 But, yeah, it's, it starts to become a power struggle for sure. 00:17:21.610 --> 00:17:24.620 And, I'm going to follow along because I used to be a part of the community. 00:17:24.620 --> 00:17:25.900 So I'll report back. 00:17:26.695 --> 00:17:27.155 cj_1_09-27-2024_130432: Nice. 00:17:27.205 --> 00:17:27.555 Yeah. 00:17:27.615 --> 00:17:27.965 Okay. 00:17:28.605 --> 00:17:29.755 That's our tease for next episode. 00:17:29.985 --> 00:17:33.945 We're going to talk about Rails 8 and all of our takeaways from Rails world 00:17:33.985 --> 00:17:36.415 next time we'll save that for you. 00:17:36.415 --> 00:17:36.715 But, 00:17:36.805 --> 00:17:38.945 colin_1_09-27-2024_100432: I would love to go to rails world next year. 00:17:39.565 --> 00:17:41.115 We'll have to find out where the next one is. 00:17:41.756 --> 00:17:45.116 cj_1_09-27-2024_130432: but before then, what's, what's going on over at discord? 00:17:45.236 --> 00:17:46.496 What are you working on building? 00:17:46.961 --> 00:17:47.501 colin_1_09-27-2024_100432: Yeah. 00:17:47.501 --> 00:17:49.771 So I think the funny thing about all the things we just talked 00:17:49.781 --> 00:17:53.901 about is this episode is going to come out much time delayed, like 00:17:54.281 --> 00:17:55.651 after words. 00:17:55.652 --> 00:17:58.951 So maybe the WordPress thing will have been solved by then. 00:17:59.361 --> 00:18:04.361 but yesterday, which was probably a few weeks ago yesterday, We now 00:18:04.361 --> 00:18:07.551 made it so we talked about on the show where you can build activities 00:18:07.551 --> 00:18:12.121 in discord so you can bring like Web based games web based experiences to 00:18:12.121 --> 00:18:16.841 discord and they run inside of discord So we yesterday made it available so 00:18:16.861 --> 00:18:19.186 that anyone can play Like publish. 00:18:19.186 --> 00:18:20.876 We took everything out of developer preview. 00:18:21.356 --> 00:18:24.576 we made it so that anyone could take their activity public and make it 00:18:24.586 --> 00:18:27.826 discoverable and make it so other servers can install it and play it. 00:18:28.326 --> 00:18:32.106 so if people are building games and they want to get eyeballs, there's 00:18:32.106 --> 00:18:35.266 a really good posts that I think I'm a lot like we can share in the show 00:18:35.266 --> 00:18:38.346 notes, where you can see the kinds of traffic that some of these games are 00:18:38.346 --> 00:18:42.986 getting on launch to the point where like we, if you really want to test 00:18:42.986 --> 00:18:47.536 your infrastructure, Running your game and be like, Oh, I have this like small 00:18:47.566 --> 00:18:50.106 delay in my queue, my queuing system. 00:18:50.106 --> 00:18:54.546 Like you're, it's going to be a big delay when you hit discord scale traffic. 00:18:54.546 --> 00:18:57.346 there's a really good blog posts from battle tabs that we'll put in the 00:18:57.346 --> 00:19:01.426 show notes, when they launched their activity and the traffic that they saw. 00:19:01.446 --> 00:19:04.296 And we had to take them out of discovery so that they could. 00:19:04.996 --> 00:19:06.936 Slow down the traffic and recover. 00:19:06.936 --> 00:19:10.406 And, those we're just a game developer and we want to work for ourselves. 00:19:10.416 --> 00:19:12.506 And you're like, you're checking your cues in the middle of the night to 00:19:12.506 --> 00:19:13.846 make sure nothing's falling over. 00:19:15.116 --> 00:19:15.366 yeah. 00:19:16.166 --> 00:19:16.796 cj_1_09-27-2024_130432: that's awesome. 00:19:16.826 --> 00:19:20.086 I think that's, it's got to feel good to see so many things 00:19:20.096 --> 00:19:23.721 launched so successfully to, That scale of audience and like the 00:19:23.721 --> 00:19:24.961 audience is actually using it. 00:19:25.101 --> 00:19:26.201 so that's got to feel exciting. 00:19:26.521 --> 00:19:26.961 Very cool. 00:19:27.246 --> 00:19:27.576 colin_1_09-27-2024_100432: Yeah. 00:19:27.576 --> 00:19:31.496 And I think as game devs, they often will build a thing in the, building anything. 00:19:31.536 --> 00:19:33.756 You want people to see it, use it, play it. 00:19:33.776 --> 00:19:38.016 And it's if you have to go to my website and download my game or play 00:19:38.016 --> 00:19:41.766 my game on my, on itch or, watch it on Twitch, or whatever these things are. 00:19:42.166 --> 00:19:44.996 It's not quite the same as there's lots of people who want to play 00:19:45.186 --> 00:19:47.096 things, or have things to do. 00:19:47.626 --> 00:19:51.176 on my end, it was a lot of docs, a lot of okay, what does it 00:19:51.176 --> 00:19:53.436 mean when we push this button? 00:19:53.436 --> 00:19:54.546 what can people do? 00:19:54.546 --> 00:19:55.756 What can't people do? 00:19:56.216 --> 00:19:59.746 There's, thankfully we're not shipping CDs, so anything that we got wrong, 00:20:00.126 --> 00:20:04.936 or is still in flux, we can go update all of that, but we, we made some new 00:20:04.976 --> 00:20:09.626 markdown components for this one, so I've been getting some, doing some MDX 00:20:09.636 --> 00:20:14.166 stuff, and yeah, just trying to figure out, I guess the biggest call out there 00:20:14.166 --> 00:20:18.456 is that, We have been trying to like iteratively upgrade our developer docs 00:20:18.476 --> 00:20:24.716 instead of doing one big redesign, rebuilds, launch this big thing. 00:20:24.716 --> 00:20:27.176 It's Hey, all the headings have weird padding. 00:20:27.176 --> 00:20:28.766 Let's just change it in one PR. 00:20:28.766 --> 00:20:31.586 And like tomorrow the docs are gonna look slightly different. 00:20:31.656 --> 00:20:34.446 And then the next day we'll ship another thing rather than doing 00:20:34.446 --> 00:20:38.956 this really big, huge project that almost becomes like too big to fail. 00:20:39.526 --> 00:20:39.716 yeah. 00:20:41.791 --> 00:20:43.451 cj_1_09-27-2024_130432: Like when you launched, what would 00:20:43.451 --> 00:20:44.711 you say is like the main. 00:20:45.356 --> 00:20:49.266 incentive that devs had to get their game up. 00:20:49.991 --> 00:20:52.731 colin_1_09-27-2024_100432: So I think we heard a lot of people like we have 00:20:52.731 --> 00:20:55.451 everything under developer preview And I think a lot of people just didn't 00:20:55.451 --> 00:21:00.881 know like we with that you couldn't add like in app purchases You couldn't 00:21:01.101 --> 00:21:04.951 you didn't know where people are gonna find your game because we didn't have 00:21:04.951 --> 00:21:08.551 docs around What is discovery and distribution and monetization look like 00:21:08.931 --> 00:21:12.101 because if you're a game producer and you're like do we want to make this bet? 00:21:13.231 --> 00:21:15.021 You want to know what you can do. 00:21:15.091 --> 00:21:18.491 And so if you're a partner with us and you're a studio and you've been able 00:21:18.491 --> 00:21:20.131 to talk to us, then you get that info. 00:21:20.131 --> 00:21:23.781 But if you are an indie game developer or just someone who 00:21:23.781 --> 00:21:27.721 hasn't talked to us yet, it's a, another level of just yes, when you 00:21:30.211 --> 00:21:34.281 and then we have those case studies of people who have, built games with us 00:21:34.281 --> 00:21:38.331 during developer preview and, they've had to go up and down with us on breaking 00:21:38.331 --> 00:21:42.021 changes and all the things during developer preview and they were willing 00:21:42.021 --> 00:21:46.021 to do that with us, whereas with the open platform, we hope for a lot less 00:21:46.051 --> 00:21:50.581 breaking changes now that we're public with it and, and just being able to say, 00:21:50.581 --> 00:21:55.121 you can bring your game to where we have Players and eyeballs and all of that. 00:21:55.613 --> 00:21:57.553 cj_1_09-27-2024_130432: It sounds like you've got killer discovery too. 00:21:57.573 --> 00:22:03.833 And that this, because you just launched it, it might be like a very 00:22:03.953 --> 00:22:08.443 awesome time to go get something up in the store just because like it's 00:22:08.473 --> 00:22:10.863 early days for that sort of app store. 00:22:10.863 --> 00:22:14.763 Almost if you can get something up and launch it right now, then, you 00:22:14.763 --> 00:22:16.253 probably have a short window before. 00:22:16.543 --> 00:22:18.453 It's flooded with flashlight apps or something. 00:22:18.933 --> 00:22:18.993 Actually. 00:22:18.993 --> 00:22:19.163 Yeah. 00:22:19.163 --> 00:22:20.513 is there like a review process? 00:22:20.513 --> 00:22:22.823 do you have to look at all of the games that are being submitted 00:22:22.823 --> 00:22:24.573 to see does this meet discords, 00:22:24.633 --> 00:22:25.543 colin_1_09-27-2024_100432: We don't. 00:22:25.553 --> 00:22:29.933 So you can, you do have to do identity verification and then you have to 00:22:29.933 --> 00:22:33.343 fill out all of your description and your images and all that stuff. 00:22:33.663 --> 00:22:36.713 but once you get through all of that, it's technically discoverable. 00:22:36.723 --> 00:22:38.273 It doesn't mean it's going to be at the top. 00:22:38.673 --> 00:22:42.333 It means it's now able to be played in those places. 00:22:42.373 --> 00:22:46.773 And if you wanted to do your own marketing campaign and get it to the, as it rises 00:22:46.773 --> 00:22:50.253 through the algorithm and stuff, and then we do collections similar to Apple 00:22:50.263 --> 00:22:51.853 does on their front of their app store. 00:22:51.863 --> 00:22:57.013 So we can highlight certain things that we think are like rising stars or, as 00:22:57.013 --> 00:23:00.903 we see them, things like that, but we don't do an actual review process, so we 00:23:00.903 --> 00:23:03.343 don't actually know all the things that. 00:23:03.573 --> 00:23:04.943 people might necessarily be building. 00:23:04.943 --> 00:23:08.813 Whereas before this moment, we did know what all the things were 00:23:08.823 --> 00:23:10.603 because you had to come talk to us. 00:23:11.373 --> 00:23:13.223 cj_1_09-27-2024_130432: do you, are there games that if someone's 00:23:13.223 --> 00:23:16.353 listening right now and they're like, Oh yeah, I really want to make a game. 00:23:17.043 --> 00:23:19.823 and put it up just to see, is there a game that you have in mind that's 00:23:19.823 --> 00:23:23.693 like entry level, probably like simple game mechanics that you think 00:23:23.693 --> 00:23:25.073 would be a good one to start with? 00:23:25.953 --> 00:23:28.033 colin_1_09-27-2024_100432: Yeah, it's a little tricky because the 00:23:28.033 --> 00:23:31.683 platform is really geared towards multiplayer, but we have a lot of 00:23:31.773 --> 00:23:34.443 really good like solo plus type things. 00:23:34.443 --> 00:23:38.873 Like the one that I think a lot of people really love right now is it's called Farm 00:23:38.873 --> 00:23:40.733 Merge Valley and it's like Farmville. 00:23:40.893 --> 00:23:44.963 and so you mostly play by yourself, but then you visit other people's farms. 00:23:44.973 --> 00:23:48.123 So it's, there's some Animal Crossing type things there. 00:23:48.203 --> 00:23:52.883 I would say any of the, party games that you love, if you can what I learned in 00:23:52.883 --> 00:23:57.423 this process is that game mechanics are not Like, trademarkable, copyrightable, 00:23:57.423 --> 00:24:02.283 enforceable, you just, the art is, the name, the words, all that stuff is. 00:24:02.593 --> 00:24:07.673 you can go out and, if you really love a certain board game mechanic, 00:24:07.693 --> 00:24:10.933 make it uniquely yours, but technically the mechanics itself are 00:24:10.933 --> 00:24:13.213 not something, you can copy those. 00:24:13.493 --> 00:24:17.473 party games, Would be a good one to look at if there's something you really like. 00:24:17.573 --> 00:24:21.463 definitely having that, we give you the SDK to pull in okay, another 00:24:21.463 --> 00:24:24.453 person joined, what does it look like to play chess with two people, 00:24:24.453 --> 00:24:25.853 but then a third person joins? 00:24:26.873 --> 00:24:31.383 so anything that you can think of a game, what experience would you want for that? 00:24:31.793 --> 00:24:33.793 I think it doesn't have to be a game. 00:24:33.803 --> 00:24:36.843 what does pairing look as an activity in discord? 00:24:37.143 --> 00:24:38.193 I don't think we know yet. 00:24:38.243 --> 00:24:38.713 I think. 00:24:39.213 --> 00:24:42.603 I don't know, like it'd be really interesting to see, multiple 00:24:42.603 --> 00:24:46.993 cursors running around like tuple style, for editing code. 00:24:47.033 --> 00:24:53.103 We have one called whiteboard that is similar to a fig jam type thing. 00:24:53.113 --> 00:24:53.503 So 00:24:53.793 --> 00:24:54.813 it doesn't have to be a game. 00:24:54.903 --> 00:24:57.873 It could be any shared canvas, that you can render. 00:24:57.873 --> 00:25:01.253 maybe something around music would be really like creating music together. 00:25:01.773 --> 00:25:03.423 We have a few music activities. 00:25:03.423 --> 00:25:06.643 Music's hard because you gotta get rights and all that stuff, but what 00:25:06.643 --> 00:25:09.593 does it look like to have, a sequencer and a bunch of beat machines and, 00:25:09.613 --> 00:25:10.793 drum machines and stuff like that? 00:25:11.713 --> 00:25:13.753 cj_1_09-27-2024_130432: In the like environment that you actually build the 00:25:13.753 --> 00:25:16.953 game in is like the browser or yeah. 00:25:17.003 --> 00:25:20.583 are you building it with something like unity or 00:25:20.633 --> 00:25:20.783 colin_1_09-27-2024_100432: yeah. 00:25:20.783 --> 00:25:21.273 you can. 00:25:21.813 --> 00:25:22.213 cj_1_09-27-2024_130432: Okay. 00:25:22.243 --> 00:25:25.723 colin_1_09-27-2024_100432: so anything that's web targetable, so if you can 00:25:25.733 --> 00:25:30.733 bring Unity 6 is coming out, next month and it's very web focused with Unity 00:25:30.743 --> 00:25:35.403 6, whereas with Unity 5, you had to do a lot of hoops, make it smaller, make 00:25:35.403 --> 00:25:38.643 it run faster, be more performing, because you are running in an iframe 00:25:38.643 --> 00:25:43.273 inside of Discord, so you also, it's, you don't have as many resources as if 00:25:43.273 --> 00:25:45.493 you were running your own app, because you're running inside of Discord. 00:25:46.643 --> 00:25:50.243 And inside of an iframe, which is then being served up by your server. 00:25:50.773 --> 00:25:54.003 so you're not, shuffling all of your, assets to us. 00:25:54.033 --> 00:25:57.063 We're not, compiling them into the app or anything like that. 00:25:57.113 --> 00:26:01.413 it is very much if you can build a web, game or web experience, you do 00:26:01.423 --> 00:26:05.293 have to then hook into all the right hooks to launch it inside of discord. 00:26:05.943 --> 00:26:09.253 but then it's cool because then you see CJ is playing, chess in the park. 00:26:09.303 --> 00:26:11.163 and then you can join right from that. 00:26:11.533 --> 00:26:14.153 So that, I think that's the other one is that like you see your friends 00:26:14.173 --> 00:26:18.343 playing stuff and you literally just click and jump in, which is nice. 00:26:19.333 --> 00:26:21.583 cj_1_09-27-2024_130432: I don't know the right term for it, but in discord, 00:26:21.583 --> 00:26:24.983 there's like different organizations or whatever on the left hand side. 00:26:24.983 --> 00:26:28.013 Is that I, when I joined them, I call them a discord, like a discord. 00:26:28.053 --> 00:26:30.703 Like I'm joining the rails discord or whatever. 00:26:30.743 --> 00:26:33.353 Is that like the use the term used internally or no 00:26:33.488 --> 00:26:35.888 colin_1_09-27-2024_100432: so this has some funny history to it. 00:26:35.908 --> 00:26:37.348 They're called servers, publicly, 00:26:37.398 --> 00:26:41.348 to users, which comes with a lot of baggage because people think of 00:26:41.348 --> 00:26:44.588 servers as, a computer, or, right? 00:26:44.918 --> 00:26:46.618 In the API, they're called guilds. 00:26:47.268 --> 00:26:52.438 And so that is also a distinction where it's I'll often use the word guilds, but 00:26:52.438 --> 00:26:56.638 then publicly in the docs, technically we go back and forth between when to 00:26:56.638 --> 00:26:58.248 use server and when to use guilds. 00:26:58.427 --> 00:27:01.807 I think it was, the attempt was to get away from gaming only. 00:27:02.017 --> 00:27:06.487 And now we actually have a lot more like guilds specific features and 00:27:06.487 --> 00:27:08.537 things too, like for gaming guilds too. 00:27:08.557 --> 00:27:12.207 So there's a lot of I think, D H H is video that we'll talk about next week. 00:27:12.737 --> 00:27:13.797 naming things is hard. 00:27:15.787 --> 00:27:18.877 cj_1_09-27-2024_130432: So when you publish a game, do people, does it like, 00:27:18.877 --> 00:27:22.377 is it tied to a guild or is there a sec separate section of discord where 00:27:22.377 --> 00:27:26.277 you like install the activities or how do you like find the activities? 00:27:26.337 --> 00:27:29.737 colin_1_09-27-2024_100432: Yeah, so before, like probably about six 00:27:29.737 --> 00:27:34.237 months ago when you built an app, which was like a bot inside of us, you 00:27:34.237 --> 00:27:35.797 could, it was only tied to a server. 00:27:36.307 --> 00:27:39.077 we have since launched user installable apps. 00:27:39.087 --> 00:27:44.697 So now you can have a to do list or a reminder app or a calendar app, or 00:27:44.697 --> 00:27:48.927 honestly, even more like MidJourney now is a user installable app. 00:27:48.927 --> 00:27:53.147 So you used to have to go to MidJourney server to use MidJourney. 00:27:53.157 --> 00:27:55.137 Now you can use MidJourney anywhere. 00:27:55.397 --> 00:27:59.207 If you install it on your user account, you can take it with you to any server. 00:27:59.437 --> 00:28:01.187 You can also install it into your own server. 00:28:01.187 --> 00:28:02.697 So you can do either one. 00:28:03.127 --> 00:28:07.847 And activities, Can also be either one, but they're mostly user installable, 00:28:07.857 --> 00:28:11.947 so you can launch them from any server, so I could, unless the server 00:28:11.947 --> 00:28:13.607 says no activities are allowed here. 00:28:13.647 --> 00:28:15.407 there's a permission set there. 00:28:15.987 --> 00:28:20.577 so if I go play, Chef Showdown in your server, and you see me 00:28:20.577 --> 00:28:21.927 playing it, you can jump into it. 00:28:22.237 --> 00:28:25.147 And then now that you know about it, you might go to the Rails Discord, 00:28:25.157 --> 00:28:27.587 and if they allow activities, you can launch it there as well. 00:28:28.247 --> 00:28:29.027 Now that you know about it. 00:28:29.927 --> 00:28:32.027 No, there's a little bit of a viral loop there. 00:28:32.577 --> 00:28:33.557 cj_1_09-27-2024_130432: Yeah, that's cool. 00:28:34.727 --> 00:28:35.227 I like that. 00:28:35.407 --> 00:28:35.597 Yeah. 00:28:35.597 --> 00:28:39.197 I think because you can monetize that makes it so attractive. 00:28:39.227 --> 00:28:41.787 And I think a lot of people will want to go out and build stuff. 00:28:42.357 --> 00:28:46.287 and because it's in an iframe, it seems super flexible. 00:28:46.287 --> 00:28:50.477 Like you could just build whatever you want on your own site, dump it in an 00:28:50.477 --> 00:28:54.027 iframe and then make sure you got the game mechanics, And the payment stuff, It's 00:28:54.227 --> 00:28:54.397 colin_1_09-27-2024_100432: yeah, 00:28:54.397 --> 00:28:58.867 I mean, the DevRel side of this is that we're trying to think like how do we 00:28:59.487 --> 00:29:05.847 make people successful like quickly and it's not the same as these like time 00:29:05.847 --> 00:29:10.367 to first hello world or time to sending an email in SendGrid because you like 00:29:10.367 --> 00:29:12.247 I have to draw the rest of the owl. 00:29:14.182 --> 00:29:17.302 You have to integrate and then you have to build a whole game. 00:29:18.382 --> 00:29:23.282 So and the more that I look at how even simple games are built, 00:29:23.292 --> 00:29:25.552 like it's just, it is a marvel. 00:29:25.662 --> 00:29:28.592 I've been playing, Star Wars Unlimited, which is Star Wars 00:29:28.592 --> 00:29:30.122 flavor of Magic the Gathering. 00:29:31.472 --> 00:29:33.382 And I was starting to think through, what it would take to 00:29:33.422 --> 00:29:35.552 code that, and it's pretty intense. 00:29:35.612 --> 00:29:38.372 And then you also have to animate, and have cards, and graphics, and 00:29:38.882 --> 00:29:42.052 all this stuff, but some cards can do certain things on certain turns, and 00:29:42.532 --> 00:29:47.062 it's just like a whole, Wow, to build, and that's not to build like an FPS 00:29:47.362 --> 00:29:50.102 shooter or a top down adventure game. 00:29:50.152 --> 00:29:53.852 game devs, it's amazing to me that they're always having such a hard 00:29:53.852 --> 00:29:55.132 time in the game dev industry. 00:29:55.142 --> 00:29:57.512 Because, it is impressive to pull off building a game. 00:29:57.622 --> 00:29:58.512 I don't care who you are. 00:30:00.237 --> 00:30:03.587 cj_1_09-27-2024_130432: Especially those like really high fidelity games that 00:30:03.587 --> 00:30:08.257 are animated and whatever, I remember thinking about like 2048 or, like 00:30:08.257 --> 00:30:14.467 Sudoku or these really simple ones, that don't have tons of graphics and 00:30:14.467 --> 00:30:20.767 sounds and like, all like very tricky, interactive, Multiplayer fight scenes 00:30:20.767 --> 00:30:25.937 or anything like, no sort of war, no yeah, no really complex game mechanic. 00:30:26.502 --> 00:30:28.502 colin_1_09-27-2024_100432: Sudoku would be a good one to build. 00:30:28.812 --> 00:30:30.612 I don't know if we have a Sudoku one yet. 00:30:31.247 --> 00:30:32.907 cj_1_09-27-2024_130432: those are the games that I actually love the most. 00:30:32.907 --> 00:30:36.807 The ones that are just like very simple game mechanic that lets you 00:30:36.807 --> 00:30:38.387 shut off that part of your brain. 00:30:38.597 --> 00:30:40.907 And the reason I like them is because I can listen to a book, 00:30:41.287 --> 00:30:44.607 like an audio book or a podcast or something while I'm playing it. 00:30:45.187 --> 00:30:46.067 and yeah, I don't know. 00:30:46.147 --> 00:30:49.367 it might be interesting to, to do, but trying to figure 00:30:49.367 --> 00:30:50.387 out how to make it multiplayer 00:30:50.552 --> 00:30:51.672 colin_1_09-27-2024_100432: what I was gonna say, yeah. 00:30:52.002 --> 00:30:55.262 You could just do leaderboards, but I don't know if it's, Sudoku's 00:30:55.442 --> 00:30:56.362 not really that kind of game. 00:30:56.427 --> 00:30:57.927 but yeah, like that's a great example. 00:30:57.937 --> 00:31:02.667 What does a, the game mechanics of Sudoku plus multiplayer look like? 00:31:02.707 --> 00:31:06.657 But also, how do you also make it fun for one person, still? 00:31:06.667 --> 00:31:07.917 So is it Sudoku? 00:31:07.927 --> 00:31:09.677 Is it Sudoku Clash? 00:31:09.747 --> 00:31:13.197 you and another person are trying to beat, fill it out as fast as possible. 00:31:13.497 --> 00:31:15.737 Problem is, it's like a thing you come back to. 00:31:15.817 --> 00:31:16.977 it's like a crossword puzzle. 00:31:16.987 --> 00:31:19.367 So, do you do it all in one sitting? 00:31:19.377 --> 00:31:20.437 Do you save state? 00:31:20.527 --> 00:31:21.197 All that stuff. 00:31:22.477 --> 00:31:24.857 cj_1_09-27-2024_130432: another one that comes to mind is like type racer. 00:31:24.917 --> 00:31:27.047 I really want my kids to be able to type fast. 00:31:27.137 --> 00:31:30.587 And so I've tried so hard to get them to type. 00:31:30.627 --> 00:31:32.897 That was like the first multiplayer game I think I ever built. 00:31:32.937 --> 00:31:36.877 It was like an experiment in WebSockets, like back in when WebSockets were 00:31:36.877 --> 00:31:39.497 like a brand new thing, I was like, Oh, it would be so cool to build 00:31:39.497 --> 00:31:41.607 a multiplayer type racer game. 00:31:43.337 --> 00:31:48.467 And now they just use, there's a million apps and websites for them to learn that. 00:31:48.467 --> 00:31:51.437 But that might be another cool one that's embedded. 00:31:51.547 --> 00:31:54.607 and then you can get you could probably do in app purchases for customize my 00:31:54.607 --> 00:31:59.747 vehicle or, like I want, custom skins or give me a turbo boost button where I can 00:31:59.757 --> 00:32:03.337 like at the end of the game, just hold control delete or something that like 00:32:03.337 --> 00:32:05.487 just leads me to the end or whatever, like 00:32:06.052 --> 00:32:06.602 colin_1_09-27-2024_100432: Oh, man. 00:32:06.762 --> 00:32:07.022 Yeah. 00:32:07.022 --> 00:32:11.482 this reminds me of like math blasters to some math games. 00:32:12.057 --> 00:32:12.547 cj_1_09-27-2024_130432: totally. 00:32:13.192 --> 00:32:14.032 Yeah, that's another one. 00:32:14.042 --> 00:32:15.672 We just started last. 00:32:15.862 --> 00:32:19.682 one of my sons is doing, they're doing these quizzes in class now, 00:32:19.682 --> 00:32:22.922 where they have to do multiplication, like how fast can you do this giant 00:32:22.922 --> 00:32:24.642 sheet of multiplication things? 00:32:24.672 --> 00:32:30.502 And so we're, we were like looking on iPhone for just some simple, like 00:32:30.542 --> 00:32:35.757 little apps that let you practice multiplication and, There are so 00:32:35.757 --> 00:32:37.237 many that have in app purchases. 00:32:37.257 --> 00:32:37.987 I was like, what is this? 00:32:37.987 --> 00:32:40.477 This is just a flashcard like thing. 00:32:40.517 --> 00:32:42.087 Like, I don't know. 00:32:42.387 --> 00:32:43.747 Yeah, that, that might be another fun one. 00:32:43.797 --> 00:32:46.087 Like race multiplication or something. 00:32:46.202 --> 00:32:49.032 colin_1_09-27-2024_100432: everyone's trying to, it's back to the making money. 00:32:49.032 --> 00:32:51.012 Everyone's trying to be sustainable with their thing. 00:32:51.517 --> 00:32:51.847 cj_1_09-27-2024_130432: Yes. 00:32:52.077 --> 00:32:53.077 Yes, totally. 00:32:54.247 --> 00:32:54.527 cool. 00:32:54.527 --> 00:32:55.337 congrats on the launch. 00:32:55.337 --> 00:32:56.017 That's pretty sweet. 00:32:56.787 --> 00:32:57.262 Very cool. 00:32:58.292 --> 00:33:00.182 colin_1_09-27-2024_100432: What is, what are you working on over there? 00:33:00.912 --> 00:33:04.882 cj_1_09-27-2024_130432: we want to nurture customers who are, basically 00:33:04.882 --> 00:33:11.312 not responding when they reach out and, or they've fallen into, 00:33:11.642 --> 00:33:14.462 I don't know, some sort of state where we just wanna kinda reach out 00:33:14.462 --> 00:33:16.472 to them without very much effort. 00:33:16.502 --> 00:33:18.302 'cause there's a lot of customers that will reach out, get an 00:33:18.302 --> 00:33:19.832 estimate, and then just ghost us. 00:33:19.832 --> 00:33:22.262 But we wanna make sure that we're following up and such. 00:33:22.262 --> 00:33:23.792 And a lot of that can be automated. 00:33:24.122 --> 00:33:26.102 There's tons and tons of platforms that do this. 00:33:27.302 --> 00:33:31.872 we've looked at, things like braise and segment. 00:33:32.172 --> 00:33:35.992 Lindsay actually works at a company that does this to enter iterable. 00:33:36.052 --> 00:33:40.292 And all of these are like great for customer messaging, but, we even set 00:33:40.322 --> 00:33:45.322 up a Zapier and we found that at the end of the day, we want to be able to. 00:33:45.867 --> 00:33:50.827 Build the sequence of messaging, but then also take actions on our own database 00:33:50.837 --> 00:33:55.047 or be able to automate different things like, okay, now create a task for the 00:33:55.047 --> 00:34:00.857 sales executive or transition the project from this status to this status, or, 00:34:00.927 --> 00:34:05.237 okay, now it's time to send this email to request colors or place this order 00:34:05.237 --> 00:34:06.537 or generate this review or whatever. 00:34:06.537 --> 00:34:09.477 So we wanted a little bit deeper integration than what we were 00:34:09.477 --> 00:34:10.377 finding from these adaptations. 00:34:10.577 --> 00:34:11.477 Out of the box solution. 00:34:11.477 --> 00:34:14.857 So now we're starting to plan out basically our own Zapier, like a 00:34:14.857 --> 00:34:18.637 workflow automation engine where we'll build our own like library 00:34:18.637 --> 00:34:20.247 of, actions that you can take. 00:34:20.247 --> 00:34:24.007 And then a suite of triggers, just a small, like group of triggers that 00:34:24.007 --> 00:34:28.847 can happen when customers take certain actions or we take certain actions. 00:34:29.832 --> 00:34:33.402 And then, yeah, just it's been fun kind of thinking through what does that 00:34:33.402 --> 00:34:38.312 look like and how do you build it in a way that's not too generic, that's 00:34:38.312 --> 00:34:44.507 like confusing, but also not, too constrained so that we can build out 00:34:44.517 --> 00:34:47.227 whatever workflows we might, encounter. 00:34:48.237 --> 00:34:51.737 So that's been fun to start thinking about, but, yeah, I don't know. 00:34:51.917 --> 00:34:55.347 Have you used any workflow automation things that you're super into? 00:34:56.862 --> 00:35:00.152 colin_1_09-27-2024_100432: so I've used iterable that we use that at Strava. 00:35:00.202 --> 00:35:02.772 What else I've used Zapier, obviously. 00:35:03.272 --> 00:35:04.722 I've also tried to build my own. 00:35:04.722 --> 00:35:05.882 That was cloud snap. 00:35:06.122 --> 00:35:11.882 I think I understand the issue you're running into, That you want like 00:35:11.882 --> 00:35:13.792 Zapier can't reach into your database. 00:35:14.072 --> 00:35:14.652 I guess you. 00:35:15.043 --> 00:35:18.192 You could make an endpoint for it. 00:35:18.732 --> 00:35:19.992 I think the same thing happens. 00:35:20.072 --> 00:35:23.662 I've been listening to bootstrap web and, they've Jordan's been 00:35:23.662 --> 00:35:25.992 working on Rosie and it's answering. 00:35:26.372 --> 00:35:30.602 The phone for you, AI as like service providers, mostly, 00:35:30.962 --> 00:35:32.462 painters, plumbers, whatever. 00:35:32.462 --> 00:35:32.682 Right. 00:35:33.242 --> 00:35:37.842 Um, but they constantly, it's Oh, I just want you to book this appointment. 00:35:37.882 --> 00:35:40.052 they're like, I want you to check on the status of our order. 00:35:40.122 --> 00:35:40.472 It's we don't. 00:35:41.462 --> 00:35:46.432 People want that reach into our database and either move a thing, check on 00:35:46.442 --> 00:35:50.792 the status of a thing, send a thing, create tasks, like what you're saying. 00:35:51.252 --> 00:35:52.972 and I don't know if I've seen anyone really do that. 00:35:53.022 --> 00:35:57.182 all of these do this, like even the open AI and all these different companies are 00:35:57.292 --> 00:36:02.572 like rabbit and all these, it's Oh, watch this cool demo of this one use case. 00:36:02.612 --> 00:36:04.122 And you're like, what about this other use case? 00:36:04.122 --> 00:36:06.002 Oh no, we're not going to show you that. 00:36:06.182 --> 00:36:10.832 So it's as soon as we get into the real world, a lot of these, Don't pan out. 00:36:10.992 --> 00:36:13.262 but I think that was also a downfall of CloudSnap. 00:36:13.262 --> 00:36:15.482 we thought it was too simple and didn't do enough. 00:36:16.042 --> 00:36:20.112 And then, we went towards the developer approach of, what does it look like 00:36:20.182 --> 00:36:24.302 to give, like for this tool that you guys are thinking about, Is it 00:36:24.322 --> 00:36:28.262 for, Developers to build out these workflows or is it, do you want an 00:36:28.262 --> 00:36:30.062 end user to build out these workflows? 00:36:30.747 --> 00:36:32.767 cj_1_09-27-2024_130432: The idea would be an end user can build them out. 00:36:32.807 --> 00:36:36.707 Like initially I think we'll probably build them just cause the UI will be, 00:36:38.057 --> 00:36:42.627 clunky I expect because it'll be so like customized, but I think ultimately the 00:36:42.627 --> 00:36:44.787 idea is to make it like Zapier or make. 00:36:45.027 --> 00:36:48.727 com where you can drag and drop nodes and then those can, flow 00:36:48.727 --> 00:36:51.657 into one or many other nodes and then you can have, conditional 00:36:51.657 --> 00:36:53.947 logic and repeating and delays and. 00:36:56.207 --> 00:36:58.247 but yeah, there's those two layers, right? 00:36:58.297 --> 00:37:02.717 as a developer who wants to add a new action or like a new activity 00:37:02.717 --> 00:37:06.397 that you can do within the framework, we'll have to figure out how we want 00:37:06.397 --> 00:37:10.917 to expose that and then as the end user, what is your experience for 00:37:10.967 --> 00:37:14.467 Defining what data is flowing from the previous node into your node. 00:37:14.467 --> 00:37:17.697 And then how do you decide whether or not you're actually going to take action? 00:37:18.397 --> 00:37:18.877 it's tricky. 00:37:19.207 --> 00:37:19.407 colin_1_09-27-2024_100432: Yeah. 00:37:19.407 --> 00:37:21.677 That sounds like a whole company right there, CJ. 00:37:21.992 --> 00:37:24.362 cj_1_09-27-2024_130432: Yeah, we keep rebuilding giant 00:37:24.402 --> 00:37:25.742 pieces of other companies. 00:37:26.132 --> 00:37:30.642 but yeah, hopefully the longterm is We might have a person who's full job, 00:37:30.692 --> 00:37:35.102 full time jobs, sit down and go through every single customer journey and 00:37:35.102 --> 00:37:37.642 workflow and optimize it and AB test it. 00:37:37.642 --> 00:37:41.682 And like, is this messaging performing well or should we change it? 00:37:41.692 --> 00:37:43.302 So it's more clear or 00:37:44.582 --> 00:37:44.922 colin_1_09-27-2024_100432: Yeah. 00:37:45.492 --> 00:37:47.122 It's your last mile problem, right? 00:37:47.132 --> 00:37:48.812 Every, all the work has been done. 00:37:48.812 --> 00:37:52.532 They got this quote, they did all the things to get the quote 00:37:52.552 --> 00:37:53.752 and then they just disappear. 00:37:54.322 --> 00:37:59.512 And so if one person can be their whole job to like, how do we close more? 00:37:59.522 --> 00:38:00.452 it's like a weird. 00:38:00.612 --> 00:38:04.812 It's I'm sure there's a word for it, but it's like a follow up salesperson. 00:38:06.362 --> 00:38:08.942 cj_1_09-27-2024_130432: yeah, it's like an, almost like an automated, yeah. 00:38:08.942 --> 00:38:11.922 Like, sales development representative 00:38:11.962 --> 00:38:13.452 colin_1_09-27-2024_100432: success management, 00:38:13.502 --> 00:38:15.262 engagement specialists, yeah. 00:38:15.762 --> 00:38:18.332 cj_1_09-27-2024_130432: But even like after the project is done, like following 00:38:18.332 --> 00:38:25.312 up to ask for a review and or, like trying to sell again later down the road. 00:38:25.562 --> 00:38:27.982 colin_1_09-27-2024_100432: If that person can then also go in and 00:38:27.992 --> 00:38:31.352 optimize the path, they're like, okay, we learned that this doesn't work. 00:38:32.002 --> 00:38:35.252 Versus, in companies I've had to be in, I've had to go interview all the 00:38:35.282 --> 00:38:38.702 people doing the work to figure out what they're doing, and I'm like, why 00:38:38.702 --> 00:38:40.122 do you do this every time by hand? 00:38:40.132 --> 00:38:42.732 you're, this person is doing, It's working over here, but they're 00:38:42.732 --> 00:38:47.512 also sending a handwritten text and email, and this other person's not. 00:38:47.822 --> 00:38:52.342 And this person's getting ghosted more often, this person's closing more things. 00:38:53.232 --> 00:38:58.212 Does that mean, was it the customers in particular, was it because they were 00:38:58.212 --> 00:39:02.177 doing that hand, Which also means, if you automate it, is it going to have 00:39:02.237 --> 00:39:04.467 the same effect as if it came from them? 00:39:04.867 --> 00:39:06.637 Can you make it look like it came from them? 00:39:06.667 --> 00:39:08.847 Is it obvious that it's generated? 00:39:08.857 --> 00:39:09.627 All of that stuff. 00:39:10.227 --> 00:39:10.597 cj_1_09-27-2024_130432: right. 00:39:11.617 --> 00:39:12.707 Yeah, it's interesting. 00:39:12.877 --> 00:39:15.337 and I think we're gonna we're getting pretty close to just 00:39:15.337 --> 00:39:17.367 letting AI do some of this. 00:39:17.367 --> 00:39:19.177 But then yeah, how do you expose them? 00:39:19.632 --> 00:39:23.602 As tools or whatever, like what's the way that you actually give this to people? 00:39:24.322 --> 00:39:24.812 I don't know. 00:39:24.872 --> 00:39:25.332 We'll see. 00:39:26.827 --> 00:39:27.177 colin_1_09-27-2024_100432: Yeah. 00:39:27.917 --> 00:39:32.887 I think Jordan was coming up against this, do you tell them up front that I am AI? 00:39:33.607 --> 00:39:36.767 Because it's going to get to this point where it's going to be so good that 00:39:37.442 --> 00:39:40.392 I've been on calls where I'm like, I'm not sure if this is a human or not. 00:39:41.252 --> 00:39:41.522 cj_1_09-27-2024_130432: Yeah 00:39:41.742 --> 00:39:43.242 colin_1_09-27-2024_100432: so do you be up front with it? 00:39:43.252 --> 00:39:44.952 Does it change the outcome? 00:39:45.632 --> 00:39:46.772 Does it matter? 00:39:47.252 --> 00:39:48.762 Do you want to talk to a human? 00:39:48.812 --> 00:39:52.792 sometimes I don't want to talk to a human, so I'm happy that it's a bot. 00:39:53.130 --> 00:39:57.190 As long as it's, responsive and like you can interrupt it and move to 00:39:57.190 --> 00:39:58.640 the next thing and stuff like that. 00:39:58.988 --> 00:40:00.488 cj_1_09-27-2024_130432: Have you ever have you heard of 00:40:00.488 --> 00:40:02.338 replicate this site replicate. 00:40:02.528 --> 00:40:02.848 com? 00:40:04.188 --> 00:40:04.548 colin_1_09-27-2024_100432: Pull it 00:40:04.548 --> 00:40:04.918 up. 00:40:05.634 --> 00:40:06.684 I have not. 00:40:06.739 --> 00:40:10.319 cj_1_09-27-2024_130432: Okay, so the first time I heard about this, was a 00:40:10.319 --> 00:40:13.009 while ago and I played around with it a little bit and it didn't work how I 00:40:13.019 --> 00:40:16.019 expected, but I heard about it again when I was listening to the Peter 00:40:16.019 --> 00:40:18.819 Levels interview on Lex Friedman. 00:40:19.019 --> 00:40:23.109 And this is like the thing that, like the tool that he uses behind photo AI. 00:40:23.949 --> 00:40:28.439 And so they let you host and run models. 00:40:28.479 --> 00:40:30.969 And then they also have a bunch that you can run. 00:40:31.289 --> 00:40:35.039 And so something I was trying to figure out is if we spun up our own models 00:40:35.589 --> 00:40:39.139 for things, can we run them somewhere more affordably than if we just keep 00:40:39.139 --> 00:40:41.893 using the open AI and anthropic APIs? 00:40:42.764 --> 00:40:45.534 but I also based on something that we talked about before, it 00:40:45.534 --> 00:40:48.294 was like, Hey, let's figure out how to like actually train stuff. 00:40:48.754 --> 00:40:50.974 so I'm going to send you this photo in Slack. 00:40:51.124 --> 00:40:53.614 so this is so funny. 00:40:54.164 --> 00:40:55.614 so I trained a model. 00:40:55.899 --> 00:40:58.749 On replicate with my face. 00:40:59.079 --> 00:41:02.909 And I was like, show a picture of CJ sitting next to Lake Tahoe. 00:41:03.009 --> 00:41:08.119 so maybe we'll put this in the notes, but, it was, surprisingly straightforward. 00:41:08.119 --> 00:41:11.269 They actually have a web based thing where you can upload a zip file too. 00:41:11.819 --> 00:41:15.169 but I thought it was going to be like way harder to do, but you basically 00:41:15.169 --> 00:41:18.789 just get a bunch of images, make sure they're roughly the right size. 00:41:19.249 --> 00:41:20.049 And then. 00:41:20.579 --> 00:41:24.609 you have to come up with a, some sort of special token or word that represents the 00:41:24.609 --> 00:41:25.929 thing that you're trying to teach the AI. 00:41:26.549 --> 00:41:29.999 I think part of the issue that I ran, like there's gotta be 00:41:29.999 --> 00:41:30.939 like a million optimizations. 00:41:30.979 --> 00:41:34.089 I basically just took 10 photos of myself and dumped them in there and said, 00:41:34.139 --> 00:41:37.109 this is a picture of CJ doing this is a picture of CJ doing that or whatever, 00:41:37.109 --> 00:41:41.599 and then this is what it spit out when I said, give me a new picture of CJ, 00:41:42.239 --> 00:41:44.179 colin_1_09-27-2024_100432: did you train it on what sitting 00:41:44.179 --> 00:41:45.769 next to Lake Tahoe looks like 00:41:46.049 --> 00:41:47.119 cj_1_09-27-2024_130432: no, it knew that. 00:41:47.229 --> 00:41:47.469 colin_1_09-27-2024_100432: Okay. 00:41:48.269 --> 00:41:48.439 Because 00:41:48.439 --> 00:41:52.789 it's clearly, I think it's been trained on lots of women sitting 00:41:52.789 --> 00:41:54.198 on the edge of Lake Tahoe. 00:41:55.639 --> 00:41:59.249 With, I had to zoom in, but with an engagement ring, potentially? 00:41:59.799 --> 00:42:00.379 cj_1_09-27-2024_130432: maybe, 00:42:00.409 --> 00:42:02.829 colin_1_09-27-2024_100432: that's just like a sunspot, but like the, 00:42:02.899 --> 00:42:04.729 like you see your ring finger? 00:42:05.249 --> 00:42:07.209 cj_1_09-27-2024_130432: definitely didn't properly. 00:42:07.519 --> 00:42:09.919 It, I think my ring finger has four knuckles maybe, 00:42:10.049 --> 00:42:11.779 colin_1_09-27-2024_100432: Yeah, and we know AI is not as good at 00:42:11.789 --> 00:42:15.309 hands, and it did hands, you have five fingers, so that's good. 00:42:16.049 --> 00:42:18.439 cj_1_09-27-2024_130432: it definitely didn't train on how hairy I am. 00:42:18.549 --> 00:42:19.209 That's for sure. 00:42:19.209 --> 00:42:23.739 This person is like, is a hairless younger version of 00:42:23.959 --> 00:42:24.789 colin_1_09-27-2024_100432: Yeah, you 00:42:24.789 --> 00:42:26.169 have no pores in this photo. 00:42:26.199 --> 00:42:26.589 cj_1_09-27-2024_130432: no. 00:42:26.589 --> 00:42:28.758 Yeah, it's so good. 00:42:28.759 --> 00:42:29.539 It's so funny. 00:42:29.689 --> 00:42:30.229 colin_1_09-27-2024_100432: Amazing. 00:42:30.944 --> 00:42:31.154 this out. 00:42:31.889 --> 00:42:32.799 cj_1_09-27-2024_130432: yeah, play around with it. 00:42:32.849 --> 00:42:35.509 they've got a couple of different models that you can throw images at. 00:42:35.539 --> 00:42:40.592 And then, I also took a bunch of our like craftwork professional photography 00:42:40.592 --> 00:42:44.855 that we did and all of the ones that were like, these are all rooms that are pink. 00:42:44.905 --> 00:42:47.675 And then I took my pink, I got a picture of my room that was gray. 00:42:47.675 --> 00:42:51.795 And I was like, Paint the walls pink and funny, like it just only did the trim. 00:42:52.285 --> 00:42:54.205 It only got like the window frames pink. 00:42:55.125 --> 00:42:57.015 So there's definitely a lot to be learned. 00:42:57.015 --> 00:43:00.245 I think there's like stuff around masking and like trying to figure out, 00:43:00.245 --> 00:43:03.375 if you upload a picture of a face, like actually just make everything 00:43:03.395 --> 00:43:07.275 that's not the face black, remove the background and do all this pre processing. 00:43:07.275 --> 00:43:10.925 So lots more to learn, but, a little bit of progress towards learning how to train 00:43:10.925 --> 00:43:12.695 our own models, which is like super fun. 00:43:13.240 --> 00:43:13.610 colin_1_09-27-2024_100432: yeah. 00:43:13.780 --> 00:43:15.490 I haven't gotten into this yet. 00:43:15.490 --> 00:43:16.700 We'll tease this. 00:43:16.760 --> 00:43:21.380 We have, thankfully we have so many future episodes to talk about, but I've been 00:43:21.380 --> 00:43:26.650 working with the Gmail API to pull down my email, and the more I look at it, I 00:43:26.680 --> 00:43:28.760 don't necessarily think I need, AI models. 00:43:28.800 --> 00:43:32.430 I just need, random tree forests, math stuff, right? 00:43:32.460 --> 00:43:34.220 And yes, I could throw all of it. 00:43:34.735 --> 00:43:36.035 at an AI. 00:43:36.055 --> 00:43:40.215 But what it feels like is that like AI is almost I think people are really obsessed 00:43:40.215 --> 00:43:43.765 with it because you don't have to do as much to get the answers that you want. 00:43:43.765 --> 00:43:49.335 Whereas with these ML models that we've been using for tens of years now, you 00:43:49.335 --> 00:43:52.165 have to do a lot of math and a lot of work to get the answers that you 00:43:52.165 --> 00:43:55.945 want and a lot of training and tagging and data labeling and all this stuff. 00:43:55.965 --> 00:43:58.585 But it sounds like you, To get really good answers, you need 00:43:58.585 --> 00:44:01.235 to do that too in the AI models. 00:44:01.285 --> 00:44:03.475 And then they're just really expensive to run. 00:44:03.475 --> 00:44:08.265 Whereas once I tune around emails, like there's a set, there's a lot of 00:44:08.315 --> 00:44:12.855 parameters in an email, but once I get the full set, there's not really like new. 00:44:13.090 --> 00:44:15.960 special things in email that we're going to be surprised by. 00:44:16.650 --> 00:44:20.660 so I'm curious to see how much I can get away with without having to use a 00:44:20.660 --> 00:44:24.280 model, but I want to look at replicate a little bit to see what else I could 00:44:24.290 --> 00:44:29.630 do around, like, you know, what was the Japanese restaurant I went to last year? 00:44:30.070 --> 00:44:30.980 Things like that. 00:44:31.070 --> 00:44:34.015 Like how much of that Do I, can I use, do I need to train 00:44:34.025 --> 00:44:35.455 every single email on that? 00:44:36.175 --> 00:44:37.955 There's going to be levels of some people are not going 00:44:37.955 --> 00:44:39.235 to want their emails trained. 00:44:39.245 --> 00:44:41.225 And so it'd be, it'll have to be a local model. 00:44:41.225 --> 00:44:44.465 I don't want to send someone's emails or mine to open AI. 00:44:44.875 --> 00:44:45.655 That's not going to happen. 00:44:45.765 --> 00:44:46.055 yeah. 00:44:46.375 --> 00:44:49.285 So we'll have to chat more AI stuff in the future, but, 00:44:49.395 --> 00:44:49.835 cj_1_09-27-2024_130432: Totally. 00:44:50.295 --> 00:44:50.605 colin_1_09-27-2024_100432: yeah, 00:44:51.025 --> 00:44:51.295 cj_1_09-27-2024_130432: Yeah. 00:44:51.295 --> 00:44:52.215 Fun stuff. 00:44:52.215 --> 00:44:53.135 Fun stuff. 00:44:53.315 --> 00:44:54.115 Let's leave it there. 00:44:54.695 --> 00:44:55.785 Thanks for listening. 00:44:56.375 --> 00:44:58.365 yeah, if you want to head over to buildandlearn. 00:44:58.385 --> 00:45:01.635 dev, that's where you can find links to all the resources and stuff we 00:45:01.635 --> 00:45:03.925 talked about in the show notes. 00:45:04.055 --> 00:45:06.165 And, yeah, I guess we'll see you next time. 00:45:06.515 --> 00:45:06.945 colin_1_09-27-2024_100432: All right. 00:45:06.965 --> 00:45:07.935 Bye friends.