WEBVTT Kind: captions Language: en-GB 00:00:08.350 --> 00:00:12.550 Travis Bader: I'm Travis Bader, and this is the Silvercore podcast. 00:00:13.380 --> 00:00:17.930 Silvercore has been providing its members with the skills and knowledge 00:00:17.949 --> 00:00:22.620 necessary to be confident and proficient in the outdoors for over 20 years. 00:00:22.710 --> 00:00:26.790 And we make it easier for people to deepen their connection to the natural world. 00:00:27.730 --> 00:00:30.439 If you enjoy the positive and educational content. 00:00:31.750 --> 00:00:36.710 Please let others know by sharing, commenting, and following so that 00:00:36.720 --> 00:00:39.630 you can join in on everything that Silvercore stands for. 00:00:40.700 --> 00:00:43.340 If you'd like to learn more about becoming a member of the 00:00:43.340 --> 00:00:47.929 Silvercore Club and community, visit our website at silvercore. 00:00:47.940 --> 00:00:48.370 ca. 00:00:52.510 --> 00:00:52.930 All right. 00:00:52.930 --> 00:00:56.740 You might remember him from such podcasts as the Silvercore podcast, 00:00:56.740 --> 00:00:59.260 episode six and episode 13. 00:00:59.260 --> 00:01:02.129 Welcoming back my friend, Mark Horsley. 00:01:02.209 --> 00:01:04.810 Mark, it's really good to have you back here in the studio. 00:01:05.184 --> 00:01:07.225 Mark Horsley: Thank you very much for the invitation. 00:01:07.225 --> 00:01:10.725 Uh, the only thing I have to say is I've got only about five minutes. 00:01:10.725 --> 00:01:13.794 I can hold my gut in since you've got this on camera. 00:01:13.794 --> 00:01:16.035 Now, last time we did this, it was audio only. 00:01:16.065 --> 00:01:16.524 That's right. 00:01:16.634 --> 00:01:18.175 So, uh, five minutes and counting. 00:01:18.225 --> 00:01:18.365 Travis Bader: Yeah. 00:01:18.365 --> 00:01:19.194 You, you emailed me. 00:01:19.205 --> 00:01:20.724 You said, okay, I got to brush my tooth. 00:01:20.765 --> 00:01:23.475 So it was like, As long as you don't talk for more than five minutes. 00:01:23.475 --> 00:01:23.945 I'll be good. 00:01:24.175 --> 00:01:24.705 Okay, good. 00:01:24.705 --> 00:01:25.824 We'll switch back and forth. 00:01:26.274 --> 00:01:28.205 So in the past, we talked about a bunch of things. 00:01:28.205 --> 00:01:31.195 You talked about, uh, the training that you've done and you did training 00:01:31.195 --> 00:01:35.814 with a large, uh, municipal police force for a number of years, helped 00:01:35.815 --> 00:01:38.875 set up their range program, the international shooting you've done, 00:01:38.905 --> 00:01:41.385 uh, training you've done with the FBI. 00:01:41.535 --> 00:01:46.574 Um, one of the things that we didn't really get to into, which I found 00:01:46.604 --> 00:01:52.035 really interesting was the undercover work and for about 30 of the 35 years. 00:01:52.440 --> 00:01:56.759 Of your work, you were working undercover and that always kind 00:01:56.759 --> 00:01:58.240 of stuck in the back of my head. 00:01:58.240 --> 00:02:03.160 Like, how does this guy who's clean cut, who's straight laced, who's, uh, you 00:02:03.160 --> 00:02:08.449 come across as extremely direct, how do you get selected for undercover work? 00:02:08.449 --> 00:02:09.280 How does that work? 00:02:10.065 --> 00:02:11.775 Mark Horsley: Well, I'd love to talk about it. 00:02:11.775 --> 00:02:13.245 But if I do, I have to kill you. 00:02:13.395 --> 00:02:15.865 So, uh, okay. 00:02:15.905 --> 00:02:19.705 Um, there's some interesting stories here for sure. 00:02:19.825 --> 00:02:23.384 Um, the, there's two kind of technical parts. 00:02:23.384 --> 00:02:27.765 There's covert work, which is where, um, Um, you're just hiding the 00:02:27.765 --> 00:02:28.975 fact that you're a police officer. 00:02:29.015 --> 00:02:32.404 And then there's undercover work where you're representing yourself 00:02:32.405 --> 00:02:34.435 to be anything but a police officer. 00:02:34.864 --> 00:02:37.295 So I'm going to kind of cross between the two of them because 00:02:37.304 --> 00:02:40.054 probably most of your listeners could care less about the difference. 00:02:40.204 --> 00:02:46.424 So, uh, so I joined the police department in 1985, I was. 00:02:46.480 --> 00:02:51.930 Interested in, um, undercover work, did my basic training in the academy, 00:02:51.990 --> 00:02:56.240 uh, went out and, uh, was in the process of learning, uh, patrol work, 00:02:56.649 --> 00:03:01.149 uh, you know, entry level, starting from the bottom, working my way up. 00:03:01.209 --> 00:03:06.670 And, uh, I expressed an interest to, uh, the undercover program and 00:03:06.679 --> 00:03:08.329 got laughed out of their office. 00:03:08.380 --> 00:03:12.369 Uh, they said, uh, you're too big, you're too tall, your teeth are too 00:03:12.369 --> 00:03:15.079 straight, uh, you don't fit the mold. 00:03:15.225 --> 00:03:21.365 And this was my first introduction to, um, stereotyping and prejudging 00:03:21.685 --> 00:03:24.125 and from the police side. 00:03:24.495 --> 00:03:24.775 Okay. 00:03:24.785 --> 00:03:28.745 So it's a big part of life that I've always detested. 00:03:29.065 --> 00:03:33.785 I detested it in high school, uh, when there was the, the music group, 00:03:33.795 --> 00:03:35.345 the theater group, the jock group. 00:03:35.725 --> 00:03:36.895 And I didn't like that. 00:03:36.915 --> 00:03:41.375 I like to move between different social circles, uh, here. 00:03:41.894 --> 00:03:49.840 And We're all impacted by this and a lot of, uh, understanding of this 00:03:49.860 --> 00:03:51.800 comes from the undercover experience. 00:03:51.889 --> 00:03:59.089 So, what I wanted to establish, uh, with the selectors was how about you evaluate 00:03:59.089 --> 00:04:05.734 results and not, You're prejudging, and you're what you conceive, uh, a 00:04:05.755 --> 00:04:10.704 criminal to be like, uh, because I can guarantee you if the police officer 00:04:10.704 --> 00:04:15.804 doing the selecting for the undercover program thinks that, uh, every, uh, crook 00:04:15.804 --> 00:04:21.560 is a pencil neck, hinged tooth geek, uh, uh, the, uh, the people Criminal 00:04:21.560 --> 00:04:23.490 probably doesn't see themselves that way. 00:04:23.530 --> 00:04:23.990 Travis Bader: Right. 00:04:24.030 --> 00:04:24.409 Mark Horsley: Right. 00:04:24.440 --> 00:04:27.740 So, um, so we, we kind of work through that and I'm going to give 00:04:27.740 --> 00:04:29.700 you an example right here, right now. 00:04:30.270 --> 00:04:36.580 Um, there's a, a, a uniform to do a Silvercore 00:04:36.630 --> 00:04:36.770 Travis Bader: podcast. 00:04:37.149 --> 00:04:37.349 Mark Horsley: Okay. 00:04:37.799 --> 00:04:39.800 So I re I did my research. 00:04:39.880 --> 00:04:41.370 I always do my research. 00:04:41.430 --> 00:04:44.660 Uh, I would normally be wearing a Hawaiian shirt. 00:04:45.190 --> 00:04:49.950 Uh, but if one of your listeners was to sweep by without putting the audio 00:04:49.950 --> 00:04:53.860 on, they'd think it was some kind of a ukulele podcast or something, and 00:04:53.860 --> 00:04:55.289 they might not be that interested. 00:04:55.520 --> 00:04:59.930 Or if I wore a business suit, they'd think it was a financial podcast or, you know, 00:04:59.930 --> 00:05:06.930 so I looked it up and I wore the, the, uh, Travis Bader, uh, Silvercore uniform, 00:05:06.930 --> 00:05:12.609 the ball cap, which is the universal, uh, compensation for hair loss, right? 00:05:12.610 --> 00:05:12.669 Right. 00:05:12.670 --> 00:05:16.100 And a t shirt or, you know, the hoodie or whatever. 00:05:16.100 --> 00:05:20.560 So, uh, you know, so we're, we're understanding, uh, those 00:05:20.570 --> 00:05:23.660 kinds of prejudging and, and, and we're tapering it to that. 00:05:23.660 --> 00:05:25.830 So I asked for an opportunity. 00:05:25.980 --> 00:05:28.460 Travis Bader: So you established a baseline. 00:05:28.864 --> 00:05:32.775 You took a look as an outsider perspective, looking at what it is that 00:05:32.775 --> 00:05:36.765 you're entering into, you establish a baseline as to what kind of the 00:05:36.765 --> 00:05:38.944 look and feel would be ball caps. 00:05:38.944 --> 00:05:39.324 Yes. 00:05:39.325 --> 00:05:42.835 They do stop the reflection of the light up top, which we have here, which is. 00:05:42.904 --> 00:05:43.614 Especially the 00:05:43.654 --> 00:05:45.695 Mark Horsley: reflection of the light off the top of my head. 00:05:45.785 --> 00:05:46.154 That's right. 00:05:46.164 --> 00:05:47.234 Very little hair left. 00:05:47.344 --> 00:05:47.604 Travis Bader: Yeah. 00:05:47.644 --> 00:05:47.944 Yeah. 00:05:48.164 --> 00:05:49.534 And then, uh, and. 00:05:49.915 --> 00:05:53.765 So you, you research first and then you come in and you try and match that one 00:05:54.065 --> 00:05:55.655 Mark Horsley: Well here within limits. 00:05:55.660 --> 00:05:55.850 Okay. 00:05:55.855 --> 00:05:56.285 Okay. 00:05:56.285 --> 00:05:59.465 And this will, this will apply to our discussion about undercover work a 00:05:59.465 --> 00:06:01.805 little bit without trying too hard. 00:06:02.195 --> 00:06:02.435 Mm-Hmm. 00:06:02.440 --> 00:06:02.675 Okay. 00:06:02.735 --> 00:06:08.525 So, uh, the 70-year-old man, uh, who is a Harley Davidson enthusiast 00:06:08.525 --> 00:06:11.825 and has giant Harley Davidson earrings, he's trying too hard. 00:06:12.155 --> 00:06:12.185 Travis Bader: Mm. 00:06:12.245 --> 00:06:16.535 Mark Horsley: Um, the 70-year-old man who uses 50 F-bombs a 00:06:16.535 --> 00:06:18.605 minute to try and show how. 00:06:19.180 --> 00:06:22.410 In tuning is with the younger generation, the younger generation is actually 00:06:22.410 --> 00:06:24.810 disappointed by that because they're going, Hey, that guy should be a role 00:06:24.810 --> 00:06:29.810 model, you know, and so without trying too hard, but, uh, going back to the entry. 00:06:29.810 --> 00:06:35.840 So when we talk about undercover work, this is in and out of, uh, undercover 00:06:35.840 --> 00:06:41.460 work and covert assignments over a 30 year, uh, period, not always full time, 00:06:41.740 --> 00:06:46.340 but sometimes full time and sometimes bigger, more complex investigations. 00:06:46.689 --> 00:06:48.729 Anyway, I asked for an opportunity. 00:06:49.270 --> 00:06:53.300 And, um, I got an opportunity and I performed really well 00:06:53.560 --> 00:06:55.140 and, uh, things went well. 00:06:55.150 --> 00:07:00.229 So here I was there, uh, you know, expanding their view of what an 00:07:00.230 --> 00:07:02.389 undercover operator could look like. 00:07:02.960 --> 00:07:09.710 Um, and one of the early successes I had, uh, was, uh, buying heroin. 00:07:09.840 --> 00:07:13.320 Um, uh, in the Columbia Hotel in downtown Vancouver. 00:07:13.700 --> 00:07:17.849 And at that time, the heroin users were a very small knit group 00:07:17.849 --> 00:07:19.440 of people who knew each other. 00:07:19.820 --> 00:07:23.559 I was assigned to go in and buy caps of heroin. 00:07:23.559 --> 00:07:27.409 It was, uh, um, uh, packaged in gel caps at that time. 00:07:27.669 --> 00:07:32.209 And this was an entry level point to an investigation where we would 00:07:32.284 --> 00:07:37.474 uh, climb up in amounts and climb up in players, uh, within the, uh, the 00:07:37.474 --> 00:07:39.395 group, uh, distributing the heroin. 00:07:39.874 --> 00:07:46.354 Uh, I walked in, uh, to the Columbia Hotel and one of the important things, uh, is 00:07:46.385 --> 00:07:48.424 to feel comfortable in your environment. 00:07:48.864 --> 00:07:52.499 Well, you have to be extremely, uh, comfortable. 00:07:52.710 --> 00:07:59.960 Confident, have an extremely high self esteem and an extremely low ego, which 00:07:59.960 --> 00:08:01.969 is the negative side of self esteem. 00:08:02.069 --> 00:08:03.650 That's what you have to be. 00:08:03.920 --> 00:08:07.249 So I have to walk into a place like that and feel comfortable. 00:08:07.610 --> 00:08:14.685 Um, Um, and I walked in the door, this guy waved to me, I walked over and, 00:08:14.745 --> 00:08:20.404 uh, you know, scored the gel caps at heroin and boom, I was a rock star, uh, 00:08:20.435 --> 00:08:23.135 in the eyes of the undercover program. 00:08:23.534 --> 00:08:25.904 And it was strictly a case of mistaken identity. 00:08:25.914 --> 00:08:27.264 He thought I was someone else. 00:08:27.675 --> 00:08:29.745 Well, why am I capitalizing? 00:08:29.745 --> 00:08:30.295 Job done. 00:08:30.560 --> 00:08:31.790 Why not capitalize on that? 00:08:31.800 --> 00:08:37.909 So it went from there, uh, to a lot of different, uh, assignments in a 00:08:37.909 --> 00:08:44.040 lot of different investigative areas, uh, stolen property, uh, it went, uh, 00:08:44.040 --> 00:08:48.379 you know, certainly drug work, lots of drug work, uh, but also, uh, major 00:08:48.380 --> 00:08:52.770 assaults, homicides, uh, you know, different type of investigations. 00:08:52.800 --> 00:08:57.759 And, uh, during my career, I was assigned full time to covert. 00:08:57.760 --> 00:09:03.689 teams, uh, drug unit twice, uh, uh, once in the 80s, uh, once again in, 00:09:03.699 --> 00:09:08.860 in the early 2000s, uh, and also, uh, gang crime, which was a three and 00:09:08.860 --> 00:09:10.970 a half year, uh, covert assignment. 00:09:11.330 --> 00:09:17.250 Also, one of my most fun assignments were, uh, property, uh, assignments, 00:09:17.730 --> 00:09:22.290 one in which I was tasked with, uh, doing, uh, Commercial break and 00:09:22.290 --> 00:09:24.350 enters for a three month period. 00:09:24.839 --> 00:09:29.050 And, um, it was, uh, an interesting assignment, uh, where 00:09:29.050 --> 00:09:30.650 I learned a tremendous amount. 00:09:30.680 --> 00:09:33.749 Uh, uh, I can go into that a little bit if you're interested. 00:09:33.749 --> 00:09:34.009 So, so 00:09:34.169 --> 00:09:36.130 Travis Bader: what do you mean you were tasked with doing 00:09:36.180 --> 00:09:37.260 commercial break and enters? 00:09:37.260 --> 00:09:37.670 Yes. 00:09:38.360 --> 00:09:38.530 Okay. 00:09:38.530 --> 00:09:39.590 Well, that's kind of interesting. 00:09:39.649 --> 00:09:39.979 Yes. 00:09:39.989 --> 00:09:40.940 It was a, it was a 00:09:40.940 --> 00:09:41.200 Mark Horsley: lot 00:09:41.200 --> 00:09:41.600 Travis Bader: of fun. 00:09:41.600 --> 00:09:42.390 So, and they 00:09:42.410 --> 00:09:43.450 Mark Horsley: paid me to do that. 00:09:44.340 --> 00:09:48.680 Travis Bader: So you got to, um, I try and find it's essentially like, 00:09:48.819 --> 00:09:52.829 I think they call it like a red team analysis of a, um, uh, of a place. 00:09:52.839 --> 00:09:56.540 You're the movie sneakers would probably be an example of that. 00:09:56.550 --> 00:10:00.680 If you remember that one with, uh, uh, I think it was river Phoenix 00:10:00.680 --> 00:10:03.719 and, uh, Robert Redford and, and the. 00:10:05.140 --> 00:10:07.100 Dan Aykroyd, I think was in there anyways. 00:10:07.100 --> 00:10:10.530 They, they, they go and they break into banks and places and they turn around 00:10:10.530 --> 00:10:12.689 and find all the weak spots at the bank. 00:10:12.689 --> 00:10:12.840 Yeah. 00:10:12.840 --> 00:10:13.990 So that kind of exactly 00:10:13.990 --> 00:10:14.470 Mark Horsley: what I did. 00:10:14.939 --> 00:10:20.350 Yeah, but I didn't get a movie out of it, but other than that, so yeah, 00:10:20.569 --> 00:10:26.224 what it was is, In a particular area, there was a real, uh, increase 00:10:26.224 --> 00:10:27.704 in commercial break and enters. 00:10:27.734 --> 00:10:30.895 Uh, there was a theory that they were lock pick break and enters. 00:10:31.295 --> 00:10:37.694 And, um, my task, uh, was to reduce the break and enters 00:10:37.714 --> 00:10:39.944 by entering these premises. 00:10:40.430 --> 00:10:44.820 And leaving a note on desk saying, uh, we breached your security, got 00:10:44.830 --> 00:10:46.650 to here at such and such a time. 00:10:46.950 --> 00:10:51.250 Could you please call our crime prevention office, uh, and, uh, and get 00:10:51.250 --> 00:10:54.090 some, uh, target hardening, uh, tips. 00:10:54.119 --> 00:10:55.799 So that, that's basically what it was. 00:10:56.210 --> 00:10:58.439 And it was what we found out. 00:10:58.580 --> 00:11:00.940 So the rules were that I couldn't break anything. 00:11:01.444 --> 00:11:06.714 So no broken glass, no broken locks, uh, but I could, uh, if I could defeat a lock, 00:11:06.714 --> 00:11:10.844 I could do it and I'm not talking at the lock pick level, but if I could defeat 00:11:10.844 --> 00:11:17.225 a lock, I could do that, but it was to gain entry in any other way possible. 00:11:17.510 --> 00:11:23.800 And, uh, so a lot of it was unlocked doors, uh, uh, but then it was, uh, doing 00:11:23.810 --> 00:11:28.279 things like, uh, somebody's exiting and you look like you belong and I hold the 00:11:28.279 --> 00:11:33.470 door for you, I forgot my keys, I got to leave a message on your boss's desk, could 00:11:33.470 --> 00:11:38.440 you open the door for me, the janitors, uh, but one of the really interesting 00:11:38.440 --> 00:11:45.510 things I learned from this is is that when people look at things, they will see what 00:11:45.510 --> 00:11:51.089 they expect to see, but they won't see what they don't expect to see at times. 00:11:51.509 --> 00:11:58.880 So I was in a, in a mall that was locked and secured and there was a security 00:11:58.880 --> 00:12:01.449 guard there and I just stood still. 00:12:01.449 --> 00:12:03.749 He looked directly at me and didn't see me. 00:12:03.979 --> 00:12:07.859 I sat on one of the chairs in the, uh, in the mall. 00:12:08.260 --> 00:12:11.829 And he didn't expect to see anybody sitting there. 00:12:11.920 --> 00:12:15.290 I didn't look like I didn't belong there and he didn't even see me. 00:12:15.329 --> 00:12:20.209 So there was a lot of really, it's, it's, it's telling, uh, uh, 00:12:20.670 --> 00:12:25.979 we, uh, we bought a house one time that had a major structural defect. 00:12:26.095 --> 00:12:28.595 And we brought in the engineer for the inspection. 00:12:28.595 --> 00:12:32.155 And when he pointed it out to me, I go, I can't believe I didn't see that. 00:12:32.395 --> 00:12:35.275 But it's one of the really interesting things about people. 00:12:35.285 --> 00:12:37.325 They will see what they expect to see. 00:12:37.645 --> 00:12:41.625 And if it's not within their realm of expectation, they won't see it. 00:12:42.035 --> 00:12:43.764 And we got to watch for that in ourselves. 00:12:43.765 --> 00:12:44.035 Right. 00:12:44.145 --> 00:12:46.254 Travis Bader: So you exploit that as an undercover operator? 00:12:46.264 --> 00:12:46.854 Absolutely. 00:12:46.924 --> 00:12:47.314 Yeah. 00:12:47.364 --> 00:12:47.744 Yeah. 00:12:47.784 --> 00:12:49.174 So what do they call it? 00:12:49.174 --> 00:12:53.184 Human hacking or basically looking at the, the human variable tends to 00:12:53.194 --> 00:12:57.085 be the, the The weakest point of any security system, because you can have 00:12:57.085 --> 00:13:01.795 the sharks with laser beams on their head and a moat, but if you're able to 00:13:01.805 --> 00:13:07.175 give the, uh, the drawbridge guy a nod to lower that drawbridge, you're in. 00:13:07.495 --> 00:13:09.684 Mark Horsley: Yeah, it was, it was interesting. 00:13:09.705 --> 00:13:13.660 Um, uh, It went a little farther than that. 00:13:13.670 --> 00:13:17.430 And I ended up getting myself into a pile of trouble with this one. 00:13:17.480 --> 00:13:24.330 Um, I'm a results guy and I, I look at how can I achieve a result, you know, 00:13:24.340 --> 00:13:29.410 whether, um, you know, I'm trying to shoot a perfect target in marksmanship, 00:13:29.420 --> 00:13:34.890 uh, sports, uh, you know, in, in target sports, or in this case, I was trying to 00:13:34.890 --> 00:13:37.240 lower the commercial break and enters. 00:13:37.290 --> 00:13:38.470 And, uh, so. 00:13:38.925 --> 00:13:44.985 It seemed very logical to me, uh, to figure out who was doing them and 00:13:44.985 --> 00:13:47.474 then take away opportunity from them. 00:13:47.515 --> 00:13:52.485 And so I had kind of a liberal, uh, interpretation of Breach of the Peace. 00:13:52.795 --> 00:13:56.384 And I was removing them from the area where they were doing their 00:13:56.384 --> 00:13:58.494 commercial B& Es prior to the B& Es. 00:13:58.495 --> 00:13:59.635 I thought it was good. 00:13:59.965 --> 00:14:04.045 And, and, you know, Horsby, you're a rock star, way to go until they 00:14:04.055 --> 00:14:06.555 found out I was kind of violating their rights a little bit. 00:14:06.894 --> 00:14:07.715 So there's a sex. 00:14:07.925 --> 00:14:12.475 There's a section in the, in that particular police department's procedure 00:14:12.475 --> 00:14:17.164 manual that's attributed to me as far as the, the use of breach of the 00:14:17.165 --> 00:14:18.885 peace and the interpretation of it. 00:14:19.095 --> 00:14:24.464 I thought really because there has to be a violent, uh, you know, sort 00:14:24.464 --> 00:14:26.874 of aspect to that, uh, use of that. 00:14:27.055 --> 00:14:30.624 Uh, law, I thought, well, sooner or later, someone's going to get pissed 00:14:30.624 --> 00:14:32.134 off with these guys and punch them out. 00:14:32.145 --> 00:14:34.795 And, uh, but that was maybe too big a stretch. 00:14:34.864 --> 00:14:35.035 Yeah. 00:14:35.084 --> 00:14:36.694 The presupposition of violence. 00:14:36.764 --> 00:14:37.034 Yeah. 00:14:38.494 --> 00:14:41.645 But I did get a 70 percent reduction in commercial B and E. 00:14:41.645 --> 00:14:46.704 So, but, so what went from a potential commendation went to discipline. 00:14:46.834 --> 00:14:50.974 So, but I learned, you know, you learn from experiences and 00:14:50.974 --> 00:14:51.494 Travis Bader: I was young. 00:14:51.594 --> 00:14:55.144 You know, if you're not pushing your boundaries and making those mistakes 00:14:55.144 --> 00:14:56.025 and you're really not learning. 00:14:56.805 --> 00:14:59.415 I mean, I, that's what I tell everyone I work with, I don't 00:14:59.415 --> 00:15:01.064 care if you make mistakes, right. 00:15:01.104 --> 00:15:03.834 We just hopefully don't make the same ones over and over again. 00:15:03.834 --> 00:15:07.074 If you're pushing yourself and it happens, that means, it means you're trying. 00:15:07.285 --> 00:15:07.505 Yeah. 00:15:07.785 --> 00:15:08.035 Yeah. 00:15:08.365 --> 00:15:09.285 Well, that would be a lot of fun. 00:15:09.285 --> 00:15:10.944 That'd be like a giant puzzle box. 00:15:11.194 --> 00:15:14.484 Like how do I, there's so many different ways that you can attack it. 00:15:14.484 --> 00:15:14.694 Okay. 00:15:14.694 --> 00:15:17.104 Let's see, banks, banks getting broken into. 00:15:17.104 --> 00:15:19.794 We can take a look at alarm systems, locks and cameras. 00:15:19.794 --> 00:15:23.294 We can take a look at the people on it, what they look like on the job. 00:15:23.295 --> 00:15:23.425 Okay. 00:15:23.814 --> 00:15:26.204 You can start befriending people outside of work. 00:15:26.204 --> 00:15:26.624 And then, 00:15:27.114 --> 00:15:27.564 Mark Horsley: um. 00:15:27.694 --> 00:15:30.364 Well, here's, here's one of the things, cause I know you're probably going to 00:15:30.374 --> 00:15:36.084 ask me a few things about, uh, fitting in with appearance and undercover. 00:15:36.084 --> 00:15:42.175 So in that job, uh, actually being completely non threatening, uh, having 00:15:42.175 --> 00:15:46.454 a clean cut, experience, uh, you know, appearance, uh, made quite a difference. 00:15:46.455 --> 00:15:54.104 So, you know, um, uh, how many times do you Do people hold the door open for a 00:15:54.104 --> 00:15:58.135 pretty woman or a guy in a business suit or a guy that's just sort of dressed, uh, 00:15:58.175 --> 00:16:01.515 upper casual and, and he looks clean cut. 00:16:01.915 --> 00:16:06.824 And uh, so, you know, you, you, you got to fit, uh, what's the most 00:16:06.824 --> 00:16:09.224 effective appearance for the assignment. 00:16:09.455 --> 00:16:09.725 Right. 00:16:11.704 --> 00:16:16.775 Travis Bader: So to some degree, I guess you'd have to be a little 00:16:16.775 --> 00:16:20.495 bit of a chameleon cause you want to be able to, uh, match your body 00:16:20.495 --> 00:16:25.835 language, match your attire, match their, uh, speech patterns, cadence 00:16:25.864 --> 00:16:27.944 in ways where it's not super obvious. 00:16:27.944 --> 00:16:30.164 And so they're not just, you're just mimicking me, right. 00:16:31.365 --> 00:16:34.525 But like you're saying before, you don't want to go overboard. 00:16:34.525 --> 00:16:40.775 Like what, what percentage of self do you retain when you're going undercover? 00:16:44.014 --> 00:16:46.114 Mark Horsley: Yeah, I've got to be really careful here because 00:16:46.114 --> 00:16:50.494 I, I, uh, respectfully, I've got to make sure that I'm not, uh, 00:16:50.524 --> 00:16:54.744 betraying my, um, trade secrets. 00:16:54.874 --> 00:16:55.425 Fair enough. 00:16:55.435 --> 00:17:02.034 Uh, but, I mean, uh, it comes down to how comfortable do you feel and 00:17:02.034 --> 00:17:05.275 why would you not feel comfortable? 00:17:05.585 --> 00:17:10.974 In a certain environment, that's where I talk about massive self esteem, uh, 00:17:11.004 --> 00:17:17.074 and very little ego or excellent ego control, um, where, you know, that, 00:17:17.085 --> 00:17:22.644 that kind of comes into it, but when you look at it, um, I mean, the one 00:17:22.644 --> 00:17:29.705 thing I can say is, as a, as a Canadian, Where do I not have a right to be? 00:17:30.044 --> 00:17:36.945 Like, um, uh, uh, for example, if the investigation takes us into a gay club, 00:17:37.334 --> 00:17:41.624 regardless of my sexual preferences, I have the right to be in there. 00:17:41.624 --> 00:17:43.054 It's a, a public place. 00:17:43.075 --> 00:17:43.495 place. 00:17:43.505 --> 00:17:46.595 So why would I feel uncomfortable in there? 00:17:46.765 --> 00:17:52.074 So that that's what a lot of it has to do with because I mean, I got a comment 00:17:52.075 --> 00:17:56.865 on fictional works because they just drive me nuts and so disappointing. 00:17:56.865 --> 00:18:02.470 They so misrepresent Uh, uh, covert work, undercover work, all police work. 00:18:02.470 --> 00:18:06.730 And, and maybe it doesn't matter, uh, to people watching it for 00:18:06.730 --> 00:18:08.120 entertainment, but it's brutal. 00:18:08.120 --> 00:18:11.970 Like I can't even watch it because, you know, this, when they're deep 00:18:11.970 --> 00:18:15.060 undercover, they walk in the bar and the first thing they do is, you 00:18:15.060 --> 00:18:16.409 know, look everywhere like this. 00:18:16.780 --> 00:18:19.184 When you walk into a bar, you look for what? 00:18:19.885 --> 00:18:24.515 If a seat, how it works, do you go up to the counter for 00:18:24.515 --> 00:18:26.055 a beer or is there a server? 00:18:26.085 --> 00:18:27.175 I mean, those are the things you do. 00:18:27.195 --> 00:18:29.365 So why would you do anything different? 00:18:29.784 --> 00:18:30.134 Yeah. 00:18:30.135 --> 00:18:33.584 If you're entering a bar and then why would you feel 00:18:33.614 --> 00:18:35.845 uncomfortable about being in there? 00:18:36.264 --> 00:18:36.544 Right. 00:18:36.575 --> 00:18:37.004 So 00:18:37.064 --> 00:18:39.754 Travis Bader: is there any fictional work out there that you think kind of gets it? 00:18:41.155 --> 00:18:41.785 Uh, 00:18:43.695 --> 00:18:47.475 Mark Horsley: Lawrence Fishburne did one movie called Deep Cover. 00:18:47.884 --> 00:18:49.945 I thought that was pretty close. 00:18:50.084 --> 00:18:54.524 I mean, there was some artistic license, but it was pretty close. 00:18:54.894 --> 00:18:58.774 Uh, but a lot of them, like one of the worst ones, uh, is 00:18:58.774 --> 00:19:00.154 it, and I can't even watch it. 00:19:00.155 --> 00:19:03.044 I've watched a few of them is a TV show called FBI. 00:19:03.795 --> 00:19:07.365 I mean, I have great respect for that agency. 00:19:07.365 --> 00:19:08.395 I've trained with them. 00:19:08.695 --> 00:19:10.665 Uh, I, I took courses with them. 00:19:10.665 --> 00:19:15.135 I, I trained at Quantico Virginia and, uh, they're professional. 00:19:15.135 --> 00:19:18.245 They're highly disciplined and it's the, just the lack of it. 00:19:18.245 --> 00:19:22.094 Like it's just everything that they're not is portrayed in that show. 00:19:22.094 --> 00:19:23.915 So I, I just, I struggle with it. 00:19:23.915 --> 00:19:24.205 Right. 00:19:24.445 --> 00:19:24.935 And then. 00:19:25.250 --> 00:19:31.449 There's this thing that I'm so opposed to, is the best stories in policing 00:19:31.470 --> 00:19:34.919 don't all involve murder and violence. 00:19:35.370 --> 00:19:36.000 They don't. 00:19:36.000 --> 00:19:40.120 So, it's, it's the entertainment industry's obsession with, 00:19:40.120 --> 00:19:41.729 with, With murder and violence. 00:19:41.739 --> 00:19:44.959 Like, I just want to see a show that doesn't have murder and violence 00:19:45.370 --> 00:19:49.529 and murder can be part of a, uh, of a story, but it doesn't have 00:19:49.529 --> 00:19:51.509 to be like it's, it's gratuitous. 00:19:51.819 --> 00:19:56.619 And even books, try and find a good book written recently that isn't about 00:19:56.619 --> 00:20:00.200 murder and violence and some weirdo perversion, you know, cause some of the 00:20:00.230 --> 00:20:02.110 best stories don't involve any of that. 00:20:02.270 --> 00:20:04.550 Travis Bader: I mean, they're just going off a template since the 00:20:04.550 --> 00:20:06.010 very first book was ever printed. 00:20:06.020 --> 00:20:06.330 Right. 00:20:06.850 --> 00:20:10.200 It's a, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, Humans seem to be negatively biased. 00:20:10.210 --> 00:20:13.879 They're looking for things that are going to be inflammatory or dangerous. 00:20:13.879 --> 00:20:17.720 And maybe that's the fastest way to hack a person's attention. 00:20:17.910 --> 00:20:18.220 Mark Horsley: Yeah. 00:20:18.720 --> 00:20:19.449 I don't know. 00:20:19.470 --> 00:20:22.859 It's a, I mean, I've there, I've aired my pet peeve. 00:20:22.880 --> 00:20:23.280 I'm done. 00:20:23.720 --> 00:20:27.530 Travis Bader: Well, you say about ego, uh, minimal ego or ego control. 00:20:27.990 --> 00:20:33.970 Um, so having a healthy ego is important for, in some respects, 00:20:33.970 --> 00:20:38.389 having an out of control ego is completely, um, problematic. 00:20:38.560 --> 00:20:42.129 Um, I've never known you to have an ego. 00:20:42.350 --> 00:20:47.904 Do you practice ego control or is it just something that you've, uh, been able to, 00:20:50.625 --> 00:20:54.495 Mark Horsley: I took a, I took a course years and years ago, and, um, the, the 00:20:54.495 --> 00:21:00.365 instructor said it to me the perfect way, uh, that self esteem is positive. 00:21:00.395 --> 00:21:05.105 You need to have great self esteem to succeed in life because you A 00:21:05.105 --> 00:21:06.515 lot of life tries to crush you. 00:21:07.045 --> 00:21:12.155 And, uh, as parents, we try to build our children's self esteem, uh, because 00:21:12.165 --> 00:21:16.875 a lot of the world's going to crush them, but ego, as he described, it 00:21:16.885 --> 00:21:19.055 was the negative side of self esteem. 00:21:19.055 --> 00:21:25.205 So consider self esteem, uh, what you want and ego, the negative side. 00:21:25.375 --> 00:21:27.405 So yes, it has to be controlled. 00:21:27.405 --> 00:21:32.195 And, and it's very, very common for undercover operators Get out 00:21:32.195 --> 00:21:37.425 of control egos because they get built up by their teams, by their 00:21:37.425 --> 00:21:40.075 handlers, and it goes to their head. 00:21:40.105 --> 00:21:42.735 And pretty soon they can't fit their ball cap on, they 00:21:42.735 --> 00:21:44.125 can't get through the doorway. 00:21:44.504 --> 00:21:48.514 And it was really well described by one operator to me where he got to the 00:21:48.534 --> 00:21:50.594 Dressed down by his boss about this. 00:21:50.594 --> 00:21:51.874 And he said, I needed that. 00:21:52.235 --> 00:21:57.404 And, uh, because you have to have this confidence to go into very tenuous 00:21:57.405 --> 00:22:01.084 situations, but it can't be ego based. 00:22:01.155 --> 00:22:04.635 Uh, like I can't believe that, you know, there's a number of factors that 00:22:04.635 --> 00:22:08.894 will play into whether I'm going to be successful in the objective or not, right. 00:22:08.895 --> 00:22:10.825 And it can't just be ego based. 00:22:11.215 --> 00:22:16.485 Um, uh, so I, I don't know if I'm explaining it properly, but, um, 00:22:17.004 --> 00:22:24.160 uh, Anything that tries to stomp on another person, that's going to be ego. 00:22:24.500 --> 00:22:27.050 Anything that tries to bring the best out of yourself, 00:22:27.080 --> 00:22:28.139 that's going to be self esteem. 00:22:29.290 --> 00:22:30.040 Travis Bader: Interesting. 00:22:30.880 --> 00:22:35.260 So like that old adage, you can have the tallest tower in the city 00:22:35.260 --> 00:22:38.250 by building the tallest tower or by tearing everyone else's down. 00:22:38.640 --> 00:22:38.959 I think 00:22:38.959 --> 00:22:39.930 Mark Horsley: that's a good analogy. 00:22:40.060 --> 00:22:40.360 Yeah. 00:22:40.950 --> 00:22:41.090 Yeah. 00:22:41.580 --> 00:22:47.309 And if you feel threatened by others who are good at what they do. 00:22:47.580 --> 00:22:51.260 That's an indication of leading to what you're talking about 00:22:51.550 --> 00:22:54.800 because you'd rather destroy their success than build yourself better. 00:22:54.989 --> 00:22:55.489 Why not? 00:22:55.540 --> 00:22:56.610 Why not learn from them? 00:22:57.189 --> 00:22:58.900 Why not become better from them? 00:22:59.030 --> 00:22:59.780 Travis Bader: A hundred percent. 00:22:59.840 --> 00:23:00.180 Yeah. 00:23:00.779 --> 00:23:07.439 So, um, when you're looking at different people, you're establishing a baseline, 00:23:07.689 --> 00:23:09.659 what are some of the things that you use? 00:23:10.014 --> 00:23:14.855 To profile, let's say in day to day life, whether policing, if you can talk 00:23:14.865 --> 00:23:19.174 about it without giving away tradecraft, day to day life, how you'd, uh, apply 00:23:19.175 --> 00:23:24.504 what you've learned and what do you do so that others are reading the profile 00:23:24.504 --> 00:23:26.755 that you want to have them read on you? 00:23:27.784 --> 00:23:28.144 Mark Horsley: Right. 00:23:28.405 --> 00:23:28.874 Okay. 00:23:28.985 --> 00:23:35.060 Um, so you try to, uh, uh, think about I want to separate 00:23:35.060 --> 00:23:36.340 professional from personal. 00:23:36.810 --> 00:23:41.590 Um, uh, I mean, professionally, if, if you're working undercover or a 00:23:41.590 --> 00:23:45.540 covert capacity, you want to fit in without standing out, you want to be 00:23:45.570 --> 00:23:48.459 unmemorable, um, and non threatening. 00:23:48.659 --> 00:23:54.040 And, uh, and then if you take that to the personal side, my, my wife says 00:23:54.040 --> 00:23:58.720 that I, um, uh, don't look friendly. 00:23:59.130 --> 00:24:04.890 And, uh, I have a kind of a reptilian forehead and I'm losing my hair. 00:24:04.890 --> 00:24:07.350 And , I, I shouldn't say I'm losing my hair. 00:24:07.355 --> 00:24:08.825 I lost my hair . Okay. 00:24:08.940 --> 00:24:10.230 And, uh, battle's over. 00:24:10.230 --> 00:24:14.280 So, so she says, uh, you should have a friendly haircut. 00:24:15.255 --> 00:24:18.405 And I go, well, how do I get a, like, I'm going to have to comb over from 00:24:18.415 --> 00:24:20.385 mid back to get a friendly haircut. 00:24:20.755 --> 00:24:27.435 So, so, you know, uh, but I, I know that that's the appearance that I have and I 00:24:27.435 --> 00:24:29.955 can see the reaction sometimes in people. 00:24:29.955 --> 00:24:34.775 So I work really hard to be outgoing and friendly and, and put people at ease. 00:24:34.870 --> 00:24:38.590 And, uh, so that's how I would apply it in, uh, in your personal life to 00:24:38.590 --> 00:24:42.849 be sort of, sort of aware of what you look like, how you come across and, 00:24:42.849 --> 00:24:48.460 uh, um, you know, I, I've got a really good friend, um, he, if he was, um, 00:24:48.560 --> 00:24:52.180 uh, an actor, they would cast him as an axe murderer cause he's just like 00:24:52.190 --> 00:24:53.510 a frightening looking dude, right? 00:24:53.820 --> 00:24:55.600 And, uh, so he's the same thing. 00:24:55.600 --> 00:24:59.540 He has to work hard at that to put people at ease and be non threatening. 00:24:59.540 --> 00:24:59.930 And then. 00:25:00.449 --> 00:25:06.679 One of the challenges, uh, in different undercover roles is that, um, sometimes 00:25:06.679 --> 00:25:12.179 you have to take on this different persona and you have to satisfy sort 00:25:12.179 --> 00:25:17.359 of, uh, requirements of your appearance that you can't change on your days 00:25:17.359 --> 00:25:20.560 off and, and looking like a French Canadian bank robber on your days 00:25:20.560 --> 00:25:22.600 off becomes real tired real quick. 00:25:23.010 --> 00:25:27.580 And uh, uh, so there were definitely a lot of challenges with that and it's not like 00:25:27.580 --> 00:25:30.540 every undercover assignment involved that. 00:25:30.689 --> 00:25:32.159 But I certainly experienced that. 00:25:32.379 --> 00:25:34.279 Travis Bader: How do you look like a French Canadian bank robber? 00:25:34.279 --> 00:25:37.830 You a little thin mustache and black and white striped shirt. 00:25:37.830 --> 00:25:38.040 And 00:25:38.050 --> 00:25:42.300 Mark Horsley: well, it's what you think a French Canadian bank robber looks like. 00:25:42.379 --> 00:25:47.429 But, uh, so there were times in my career where I, uh, played long term 00:25:47.429 --> 00:25:54.129 undercover operations, uh, with a certain appearance, um, that really conflicted 00:25:54.129 --> 00:25:58.070 with, uh, family life, uh, um, for sure. 00:25:58.229 --> 00:25:59.050 That was challenging. 00:25:59.439 --> 00:26:00.439 Travis Bader: Do you have. 00:26:00.834 --> 00:26:04.774 You strike me as a type of person who has a high level of compartmentalization 00:26:04.774 --> 00:26:08.475 and can compartmentalize different things into different areas 00:26:08.514 --> 00:26:10.374 without having a bleed over. 00:26:11.004 --> 00:26:13.774 Did you find that, is that true? 00:26:13.824 --> 00:26:16.604 Am I, am I correct in that assumption or was there challenges 00:26:16.604 --> 00:26:18.574 in that, uh, in that bleed over? 00:26:19.124 --> 00:26:19.884 Mark Horsley: Um, yeah. 00:26:20.855 --> 00:26:26.015 So, my, my wife and I married really young and, uh, we've been married over 40 years. 00:26:26.105 --> 00:26:30.655 Um, and, uh, we grew up together in a certain sense. 00:26:30.655 --> 00:26:35.434 She's a registered nurse and, uh, pretty soon we had to come to an agreement on 00:26:35.435 --> 00:26:40.104 what was and what wasn't dinner, uh, table conversation, uh, conversation. 00:26:40.115 --> 00:26:42.705 Cause nurses, like they can gross out a policeman easily, 00:26:43.505 --> 00:26:45.875 easily, and, and vice versa. 00:26:45.875 --> 00:26:50.914 So there was some over enthusiasm early in my policing career and probably early 00:26:50.914 --> 00:26:53.165 in her nursing career, uh, for sure. 00:26:53.545 --> 00:26:55.694 But then it became very balanced. 00:26:55.694 --> 00:27:01.194 So later on, uh, we came down to, um, we had a rule, five minute rule. 00:27:01.494 --> 00:27:03.534 You're allowed to talk about work for five minutes. 00:27:03.544 --> 00:27:04.334 So think about. 00:27:04.535 --> 00:27:07.585 You have to think about it a little bit, you have to be really concise, 00:27:07.585 --> 00:27:09.025 and you only have five minutes. 00:27:09.025 --> 00:27:15.104 And the theory behind that is, um, it's my burden in providing for our family, 00:27:15.104 --> 00:27:21.064 and we were a dual career couple, uh, and it's not her burden, and vice versa. 00:27:21.085 --> 00:27:24.055 So, you can summarize in, in five minutes. 00:27:24.095 --> 00:27:25.975 And that, that's what we came to. 00:27:25.975 --> 00:27:27.965 So, yeah, there was a huge difference. 00:27:27.980 --> 00:27:32.890 Separation between my work life and my family life and where it was 00:27:32.900 --> 00:27:37.460 challenging was where my appearance was such that, uh, you know, I 00:27:37.460 --> 00:27:39.340 couldn't change it on my days off that. 00:27:39.340 --> 00:27:43.000 So that was, that was a little bit difficult, but there's a really, really 00:27:43.000 --> 00:27:47.120 important thing in training undercover operators because initially we were 00:27:47.130 --> 00:27:52.774 self trained, uh, Uh, there was a, a federal agency course that some people 00:27:52.774 --> 00:27:57.195 took, uh, but it was just basically trial by fire, figure it out on your 00:27:57.195 --> 00:27:59.155 own, get a little coaching and guidance. 00:27:59.425 --> 00:28:04.705 Now it's very formal, but, uh, people are tested by psychologists. 00:28:05.064 --> 00:28:09.675 But there's one really, really important thing that has always been in place. 00:28:09.735 --> 00:28:14.655 As soon as you start using undercover techniques in your personal life, you have 00:28:14.655 --> 00:28:17.054 to be removed from the undercover program. 00:28:17.980 --> 00:28:18.940 You can't do it. 00:28:19.380 --> 00:28:21.270 Travis Bader: And that's going to, do you have a buddy system for 00:28:21.270 --> 00:28:23.250 people or is that all self reporting? 00:28:23.260 --> 00:28:25.080 Mark Horsley: No, it's a supervisory system. 00:28:25.090 --> 00:28:29.789 So as soon as that's detected or reported and, and looked into, a person 00:28:29.789 --> 00:28:34.780 needs to be suspended until that's resolved, uh, because the person is 00:28:34.789 --> 00:28:36.449 more important than the operation. 00:28:36.820 --> 00:28:41.570 And, and, uh, you know, I have lots and lots of examples, uh, where 00:28:41.570 --> 00:28:44.020 people, uh, forgot who they were. 00:28:44.645 --> 00:28:50.565 Uh, in, in one case, uh, uh, an undercover operator, uh, met a woman 00:28:50.945 --> 00:28:56.135 while he was, uh, in a long term under, uh, undercover operation, uh, at a, 00:28:56.205 --> 00:29:02.845 as a high level drug trafficker with a fancy, uh, apartment, uh, fancy cars, uh, 00:29:02.855 --> 00:29:04.795 jewelry, money, all that kind of stuff. 00:29:04.795 --> 00:29:05.889 So she fell in love with a drug dealer. 00:29:05.910 --> 00:29:06.380 Drug 00:29:07.640 --> 00:29:08.070 Travis Bader: trafficker, 00:29:08.230 --> 00:29:11.810 Mark Horsley: they, she knew eventually that he wasn't and was a police 00:29:11.810 --> 00:29:17.050 officer, but you can imagine how disastrous that clash of values was 00:29:17.050 --> 00:29:22.249 when she found out that he was a police officer on a police officer's salary. 00:29:22.560 --> 00:29:22.820 Right? 00:29:22.859 --> 00:29:23.169 Sure. 00:29:23.220 --> 00:29:23.999 And, um. 00:29:24.640 --> 00:29:28.620 And there was another case where an undercover operator used their 00:29:28.620 --> 00:29:36.599 undercover ID to, uh, access, uh, um, a hotel for an extramarital affair. 00:29:36.600 --> 00:29:40.720 And, uh, you know, those are, so, uh, eventually I became 00:29:40.720 --> 00:29:42.569 a supervisor of these people. 00:29:42.865 --> 00:29:46.265 programs and these people, and these were things that we would watch for. 00:29:46.265 --> 00:29:54.005 So in my own life, yes, I was absolutely, um, uh, compartmentalizing, 00:29:54.085 --> 00:29:59.774 uh, the authorized legal technique of deception for police work, but 00:29:59.785 --> 00:30:02.629 never exercised in my personal life. 00:30:02.830 --> 00:30:05.780 So they're absolutely, you have to, you're playing a role and you have 00:30:05.780 --> 00:30:07.830 to be able to, to separate that. 00:30:08.170 --> 00:30:12.729 Uh, uh, for example, um, I try not to use words that would embarrass 00:30:12.729 --> 00:30:14.800 my mom, God rest her soul, right? 00:30:14.900 --> 00:30:18.149 Like, uh, in my personal life, but I, I've been known to use 00:30:18.160 --> 00:30:19.939 bad words in other situations. 00:30:20.200 --> 00:30:26.150 Uh, roles that I'm in, you know, and I'm no saint, but I, I try, you know, right. 00:30:26.170 --> 00:30:26.540 So 00:30:26.640 --> 00:30:29.640 Travis Bader: is it like a switch you can flip in your head when you're going or 00:30:29.840 --> 00:30:32.580 Mark Horsley: you're playing a part, then you're not playing a part. 00:30:32.700 --> 00:30:36.449 And, uh, there's always a transition from work to home. 00:30:36.540 --> 00:30:41.520 There is, uh, especially when you're in, uh, involved in high adrenaline, 00:30:41.560 --> 00:30:48.265 um, experiences, there is a, you know, A, um, uh, a period post adrenaline 00:30:48.265 --> 00:30:52.705 period, but there, there has to be that separation that turn it on, turn it off. 00:30:52.705 --> 00:30:54.304 There ha absolutely has to be that. 00:30:55.145 --> 00:30:57.835 Travis Bader: I mean, you're not going in and doing undercover work at people 00:30:57.835 --> 00:31:01.045 when they're at the best points in their life, living their best life. 00:31:01.045 --> 00:31:06.555 You're, you tend to go in and find people in some of the worst areas of 00:31:06.555 --> 00:31:09.224 society and worst times in their life. 00:31:09.224 --> 00:31:12.769 You, you'll see the worst in people essentially for 35 years. 00:31:13.260 --> 00:31:19.030 Uh, is there, you know, they talk about that thin blue line, right? 00:31:19.100 --> 00:31:24.910 And you're, you're walking that line between being lawful and protecting 00:31:24.910 --> 00:31:30.100 others, and you're right there on that edge, having to interact with all those 00:31:30.100 --> 00:31:31.450 who are on the other side of that. 00:31:33.339 --> 00:31:34.410 Does that get difficult? 00:31:34.649 --> 00:31:38.160 I mean, I would think for an undercover operator, that would be that thin 00:31:38.160 --> 00:31:40.200 blue guy gets really, really thin. 00:31:41.520 --> 00:31:45.560 Mark Horsley: Um, I, I didn't find it so, uh, I mean, there is a rule 00:31:45.560 --> 00:31:49.080 book, right, that we have to follow that they don't have to follow. 00:31:49.440 --> 00:31:53.410 And you know, I, I already discussed my first crossing the 00:31:53.420 --> 00:31:57.219 line, um, which was a good lesson. 00:31:57.540 --> 00:31:57.830 Yeah. 00:31:57.860 --> 00:32:02.200 But there is a rule book and, uh, uh, but there's an awful lot you 00:32:02.230 --> 00:32:05.700 can do to, to catch the bad guy. 00:32:05.709 --> 00:32:10.869 And, and you do see the ugliest side of humanity, um, actually 00:32:10.869 --> 00:32:12.120 on both sides of the line. 00:32:12.419 --> 00:32:17.760 And, uh, uh, so it, it, it's, uh, you know, like 35 years of policing 00:32:17.760 --> 00:32:22.300 helped me really understand people, but to keep it in perspective. 00:32:22.475 --> 00:32:27.185 I had to remember that, uh, I was constantly looking at the worst 00:32:27.185 --> 00:32:31.115 few of them, and that that wasn't representative of all people. 00:32:31.145 --> 00:32:36.324 Uh, I did a lot of motorcycle travel with, uh, my brother John, and one of 00:32:36.324 --> 00:32:40.575 the greatest things of that, because it was during a lot of, uh, period 00:32:40.575 --> 00:32:46.480 where I was working covert assignments and undercover work, was, um, I We, 00:32:46.510 --> 00:32:50.650 we would travel everywhere, uh, and meet all these wonderful people. 00:32:50.650 --> 00:32:54.510 And it was just a reminder that most people in the world are really good, but 00:32:54.520 --> 00:33:01.350 yes, we're using deception, um, and not representing who we actually are as an 00:33:01.350 --> 00:33:03.810 investigative technique with an end goal. 00:33:03.870 --> 00:33:04.700 That's what it was. 00:33:04.710 --> 00:33:07.269 So no, I, I didn't find a big struggle with it. 00:33:07.709 --> 00:33:12.989 I didn't, I didn't lose track of who I was, um, uh, ever. 00:33:13.605 --> 00:33:20.435 I played a role and, uh, uh, mind you, um, others did, but it was something 00:33:20.435 --> 00:33:22.555 that we, we really had to watch for. 00:33:22.705 --> 00:33:29.204 So, no, I, I, uh, you got to be really, really careful, um, that 00:33:29.205 --> 00:33:31.564 you're, you're using the techniques. 00:33:31.635 --> 00:33:33.015 In the appropriate area. 00:33:33.025 --> 00:33:39.391 It's very much like, um, I was a very skilled interviewer, uh, interrogator, 00:33:39.391 --> 00:33:43.994 uh, you don't use those skills on other police officers, you don't use 00:33:43.994 --> 00:33:47.975 them on your friends, you sure as shit don't use, excuse my French, you sure 00:33:47.975 --> 00:33:51.770 as Lee, don't use those on your wife. 00:33:52.270 --> 00:33:53.910 You knew it, you knew it was coming. 00:33:53.910 --> 00:33:54.540 Oh yes. 00:33:54.590 --> 00:33:55.768 You know, it 00:33:55.768 --> 00:33:56.775 Travis Bader: was coming. 00:33:56.775 --> 00:33:59.360 No, no, that's a, that's a recipe for disaster. 00:33:59.390 --> 00:34:03.200 No, if you care about your wife and you'd want a long term relationship, 00:34:04.290 --> 00:34:06.190 leave that at home or leave that at work. 00:34:06.290 --> 00:34:06.520 Mark Horsley: Yeah. 00:34:06.749 --> 00:34:08.170 There's a time and a place, right? 00:34:08.170 --> 00:34:08.500 Yeah. 00:34:08.690 --> 00:34:09.040 So, 00:34:09.610 --> 00:34:11.869 Travis Bader: um, you know. 00:34:12.180 --> 00:34:14.970 You can't be the only person whose results oriented. 00:34:15.020 --> 00:34:19.310 I mean, a type personality is a lot of them on the police force and 00:34:19.410 --> 00:34:22.230 getting into, uh, undercover work. 00:34:25.180 --> 00:34:30.919 Is it a difficult thing to balance when you know, someone is a criminal and 00:34:30.919 --> 00:34:33.510 they know you've done unlawful things? 00:34:33.510 --> 00:34:34.190 Is that ever. 00:34:35.800 --> 00:34:38.700 Maybe not for you, but have you noticed that in others where that 00:34:38.730 --> 00:34:42.610 ambition gets ahead of people to, uh, and see the end result? 00:34:42.680 --> 00:34:46.939 Mark Horsley: That's, uh, that's the, um, uh, the imbalance, uh, 00:34:46.970 --> 00:34:48.440 between self esteem and ego. 00:34:49.260 --> 00:34:50.850 Yes, I'm sure I've seen that. 00:34:50.900 --> 00:34:54.960 And it's, um, uh, you know, it's something that it's dangerous. 00:34:55.000 --> 00:35:00.400 I mean, you got to remember policing is imperfect people serving people. 00:35:01.435 --> 00:35:01.905 people. 00:35:02.515 --> 00:35:06.515 But, held to the highest standard of anyone in society. 00:35:07.435 --> 00:35:08.535 And as it should be. 00:35:08.775 --> 00:35:14.895 Um, I mean arguably, uh, politicians should be held to a much higher standard. 00:35:14.975 --> 00:35:19.920 Arguably, uh, A prime minister, for example, should probably go through a 00:35:19.920 --> 00:35:25.040 background check that a police constable would go to, go through, arguably. 00:35:25.400 --> 00:35:30.469 But I have no beef with us being held to that standard, but, uh, it is imperfect 00:35:30.469 --> 00:35:33.400 people serving imperfect people. 00:35:33.410 --> 00:35:37.279 So sure, there, there's, there, there's temptation, there's, 00:35:37.299 --> 00:35:39.009 there's challenges for sure. 00:35:39.345 --> 00:35:45.035 Uh, but, but the, the, the, the amount of latitude you have in undercover 00:35:45.035 --> 00:35:46.895 work is really, really broad. 00:35:46.985 --> 00:35:51.585 Like you're representing, uh, yourself to be anything but a police officer. 00:35:51.685 --> 00:35:57.724 And so that, uh, uh, allows for crimes to take place or to learn 00:35:57.725 --> 00:35:59.824 about them or get, gather evidence. 00:35:59.845 --> 00:36:06.900 Uh, and there is also, um, Uh, exceptional and, and, uh, you know, 00:36:06.940 --> 00:36:12.170 unintended things that come out and you learn, have you watched the, the, uh, 00:36:12.200 --> 00:36:14.430 the video, uh, Operation Wheelchair? 00:36:14.689 --> 00:36:20.940 That was, that was my 2015, uh, undercover assignment, uh, in the downtown Eastside. 00:36:21.270 --> 00:36:26.960 And it's the most, uh, attention I ever got for the biggest failure 00:36:26.960 --> 00:36:28.300 of an investigation, right? 00:36:28.340 --> 00:36:32.970 Cause I was unsuccessful in getting assaulted or robbed in that investigation. 00:36:33.000 --> 00:36:33.250 Right. 00:36:33.250 --> 00:36:33.429 Why don't 00:36:33.430 --> 00:36:34.680 Travis Bader: you tell the listeners about that one? 00:36:34.680 --> 00:36:36.669 I'll put a link to it as well, if they want to watch it. 00:36:37.550 --> 00:36:38.919 Mark Horsley: Really, really quickly. 00:36:38.919 --> 00:36:43.370 We had a whole bunch of, um, uh, crimes against people who were 00:36:43.370 --> 00:36:45.450 handicapped, uh, in wheelchair. 00:36:45.450 --> 00:36:46.680 They were robberies and assaults. 00:36:47.000 --> 00:36:50.840 Uh, but there was no pattern, there was different times a day, different 00:36:50.850 --> 00:36:52.740 days a week, all this kind of thing. 00:36:52.740 --> 00:37:00.310 So, uh, I, uh, uh, went undercover and it, it, it sounds simpler than it was. 00:37:00.320 --> 00:37:06.220 First of all, I went to GF Strong and I spoke to a peer counselor, uh, named 00:37:06.230 --> 00:37:11.505 Walt, uh, who, he was a full time counselor for people who were new, newly 00:37:11.505 --> 00:37:14.025 paralyzed, and Walt's a quadriplegic. 00:37:14.515 --> 00:37:19.645 And I had to understand what it was like from him to be a person in a wheelchair. 00:37:20.135 --> 00:37:24.345 I had to learn how to drive a power wheelchair, which was frightening. 00:37:25.904 --> 00:37:29.054 And then, um, you know, how I would play this role. 00:37:29.294 --> 00:37:31.545 So I think I did a good job playing the role. 00:37:31.665 --> 00:37:36.525 But the unintended, uh, result here was no crimes. 00:37:36.715 --> 00:37:41.485 Uh, but all this kindness that I was shown by people in the downtown East side. 00:37:41.494 --> 00:37:42.705 And it was phenomenal. 00:37:42.715 --> 00:37:46.254 So remember, I was like 2015, I was a 30 year cop. 00:37:46.765 --> 00:37:50.825 And, uh, I, Uh, you never think you've seen it all, but you think you've seen 00:37:50.825 --> 00:37:52.765 enough that nothing would surprise you. 00:37:52.765 --> 00:37:54.335 Well, I was surprised. 00:37:54.375 --> 00:37:57.775 And, uh, so, and it was, I mean, watch the video. 00:37:57.775 --> 00:38:01.074 I don't want to get too into it, but the bottom line is, is that the people were 00:38:01.074 --> 00:38:05.595 very compassionate and they looked out for me and there was a real community 00:38:05.595 --> 00:38:10.495 down there, uh, when people drive through and they're horrified by what they see. 00:38:10.815 --> 00:38:12.245 I understand that. 00:38:12.705 --> 00:38:18.055 But what I think a lot of people don't understand is that we, as a society, have 00:38:18.055 --> 00:38:23.635 an obligation to protect those people that are down there, and they're not all bad. 00:38:24.275 --> 00:38:27.425 Circumstances, in many cases, took them there. 00:38:27.464 --> 00:38:32.914 There's an awful lot of, for example, people who are addicted to painkillers who 00:38:32.914 --> 00:38:37.975 came out of, uh, you know, industry, like, uh, construction, logging, and so forth. 00:38:37.995 --> 00:38:43.220 And, uh, Uh, I think we have to remember, uh, they're human beings 00:38:43.250 --> 00:38:45.430 and they have wonderful traits. 00:38:45.430 --> 00:38:48.839 They're imperfect, but so are we, right. 00:38:49.020 --> 00:38:49.430 You know? 00:38:49.800 --> 00:38:53.130 So I don't want to get like, it's a three minute video. 00:38:53.260 --> 00:38:53.530 Yeah. 00:38:53.650 --> 00:38:54.239 Spend the time. 00:38:54.290 --> 00:38:55.620 Travis Bader: Yeah, it's a good video. 00:38:55.650 --> 00:38:56.679 I enjoy that one. 00:38:56.679 --> 00:39:00.290 And when you say a massive failure, it's probably like you, Most successful 00:39:00.300 --> 00:39:02.420 failure that they, you have out there. 00:39:02.420 --> 00:39:02.999 Well, I thought, 00:39:03.000 --> 00:39:06.230 Mark Horsley: I thought about it and I thought, gee, was I ever successful in 00:39:06.230 --> 00:39:08.570 getting robbed or mugged in my undercover? 00:39:08.580 --> 00:39:14.160 And I was, and I've got a couple where I was, um, but not that time. 00:39:14.169 --> 00:39:15.979 And I really, really wanted it. 00:39:16.040 --> 00:39:21.170 And I really wanted it because, uh, you know, I mean, it, it, it was a 00:39:21.170 --> 00:39:24.310 certain amount of danger involved that there was one point in the 00:39:24.310 --> 00:39:27.699 video where I was sure the guy was going to rob me and no, no, no, no. 00:39:28.780 --> 00:39:29.130 What's that 00:39:29.130 --> 00:39:32.110 Travis Bader: got to feel like, all hungered up waiting to get robbed, 00:39:32.140 --> 00:39:35.070 maybe hurt, maybe stabbed, maybe. 00:39:36.300 --> 00:39:36.740 Mark Horsley: Okay. 00:39:36.780 --> 00:39:42.779 So I'm in that circumstances for a number of hours over a number 00:39:42.780 --> 00:39:48.189 of weeks versus someone who lives that every day, uh, I can do that. 00:39:48.440 --> 00:39:48.700 Yeah. 00:39:48.780 --> 00:39:49.060 Yeah. 00:39:49.130 --> 00:39:55.110 And I, I don't think I, I telegraphed my anxiousness. 00:39:56.140 --> 00:39:57.840 I think I was ready to take the hits. 00:39:58.140 --> 00:39:59.849 I was ready to take the hits. 00:40:00.420 --> 00:40:00.650 Yeah. 00:40:02.210 --> 00:40:06.090 Travis Bader: I'm just thinking about the, uh, things that you can talk about and 00:40:06.090 --> 00:40:09.450 things that you can't talk about without putting you into a bit of an awkward spot. 00:40:11.680 --> 00:40:15.270 When you're doing interview and interrogation, when you're talking 00:40:15.270 --> 00:40:19.929 with individuals, uh, I remember years ago, I did a few courses 00:40:19.940 --> 00:40:21.189 on interview and interrogation. 00:40:21.190 --> 00:40:25.330 The read courses, one of them did their basic and their advanced course with VPD. 00:40:25.920 --> 00:40:31.060 And, um, you know, there's a lot of, uh, theme development and there's a. 00:40:32.155 --> 00:40:36.315 Uh, it's very different than what people show in, in the TV shows where they're 00:40:36.345 --> 00:40:37.625 hitting them with a book in there. 00:40:37.985 --> 00:40:38.505 You did it. 00:40:38.505 --> 00:40:38.875 Didn't you? 00:40:38.905 --> 00:40:41.405 It's a very, very different, uh, process. 00:40:42.485 --> 00:40:45.805 And a lot of it's trying to be compassionate to the person that you 00:40:45.805 --> 00:40:50.614 are interviewing and trying to, uh, uh, maybe minimize some of the things 00:40:50.614 --> 00:40:57.225 that they've been doing so that you can elicit a proper, um, a legal confession. 00:40:57.225 --> 00:41:02.900 Um, Did you ever find yourself when doing cover work or doing interviewing 00:41:03.100 --> 00:41:08.020 and interrogation where you're just with absolutely repulsive people that, you 00:41:08.030 --> 00:41:12.970 know, are absolutely repulsive people, but you have to sit there and play the game. 00:41:12.970 --> 00:41:15.170 And, and how, if so, how'd you deal with that? 00:41:18.280 --> 00:41:19.950 Mark Horsley: Yes, is the answer. 00:41:20.180 --> 00:41:21.420 I think you want more than that. 00:41:22.800 --> 00:41:29.990 Uh, yes, I've been with, uh, reprehensible, repulsive people and, 00:41:30.100 --> 00:41:36.160 uh, you know, uh, not telegraphing how I felt was, uh, critical. 00:41:36.220 --> 00:41:43.230 Um, uh, yes, it's a, it's a very, uh, challenging and difficult thing to do. 00:41:43.330 --> 00:41:48.800 Um, one of the things that, um, Comes to mind, and it's not exactly where 00:41:48.800 --> 00:41:52.710 you want it to go, I don't think, is the whole issue with false confession. 00:41:53.320 --> 00:41:58.260 And, uh, I ran into that quite a few times, and this is where that imbalance 00:41:58.260 --> 00:42:03.769 between self esteem and ego happens again, because the, um, the investigator 00:42:03.780 --> 00:42:08.570 wants the confession, they get the confession and they go, yeah, I got 00:42:08.570 --> 00:42:10.240 the confession, but hang on a second. 00:42:10.540 --> 00:42:13.670 You've just put a person in a room who's never done anything 00:42:13.670 --> 00:42:15.340 noteworthy in their entire life. 00:42:15.905 --> 00:42:23.175 Um, they have no attention because of achievement in their entire life. 00:42:23.355 --> 00:42:26.175 And then they're going to take credit for something that there's 00:42:26.175 --> 00:42:29.695 going to be consequences for, but for a brief period of time, they 00:42:29.695 --> 00:42:32.115 feel like they're a somebody. 00:42:32.874 --> 00:42:35.594 And you got to so watch for that. 00:42:35.834 --> 00:42:42.325 And that's where, you know, that, um, uh, self esteem has to dominate the ego. 00:42:42.980 --> 00:42:47.870 And, and make sure that you recognize that and, and, uh, look at it very carefully. 00:42:47.880 --> 00:42:54.279 There's, with, um, uh, DNA evidence, uh, we get, uh, people who have, uh, 00:42:54.290 --> 00:42:59.219 been imprisoned for things that they didn't do, but in many cases, their 00:42:59.219 --> 00:43:01.350 conviction was based on a confession. 00:43:01.725 --> 00:43:05.585 And, uh, so, you know, there, now we have more tools. 00:43:05.635 --> 00:43:09.165 I say we, I'm a retired policeman, but we have more, more tools 00:43:09.185 --> 00:43:11.824 to verify, uh, uh, stories. 00:43:11.855 --> 00:43:22.265 But, yes, um, uh, the ability to, uh, not, uh, Show how, how you truly feel 00:43:22.265 --> 00:43:24.925 about someone is, is very important. 00:43:25.005 --> 00:43:28.625 Um, some of those skills are built from 40 years of marriage, where 00:43:28.625 --> 00:43:31.325 you are really good at pretending you care about something that maybe 00:43:31.395 --> 00:43:34.135 you don't, but like which color. 00:43:34.564 --> 00:43:36.464 Do you like this color? 00:43:36.464 --> 00:43:38.055 That looks exactly like that color. 00:43:38.175 --> 00:43:40.285 Oh, whichever one you love, dear. 00:43:41.965 --> 00:43:43.685 You're real good at reading the person, right? 00:43:43.845 --> 00:43:44.305 Yeah. 00:43:44.395 --> 00:43:46.515 It's not in the course, but perhaps it should be. 00:43:48.085 --> 00:43:48.365 Travis Bader: Yeah. 00:43:48.365 --> 00:43:48.429 Okay. 00:43:48.580 --> 00:43:51.790 Is there anything that you had takeaways from that line of work 00:43:51.800 --> 00:43:55.010 that you think would be applicable to people in their everyday life? 00:43:55.040 --> 00:43:58.800 Like, certainly I think from a public safety standpoint for an individual, 00:43:58.819 --> 00:44:03.309 establishing a baseline and not acting outside of that would be just a, a 00:44:03.310 --> 00:44:06.410 basic personal safety, uh, aspect. 00:44:07.479 --> 00:44:11.850 Mark Horsley: I think there's an awful lot of people that go through life, 00:44:11.850 --> 00:44:16.990 nothing to do with policing who are playing a part, like, That's not them, 00:44:17.470 --> 00:44:21.080 and they're, they're being somebody that's not, you know, they're betraying 00:44:21.080 --> 00:44:25.480 their core values, uh, they're, they're, they're not listening to their moral 00:44:25.499 --> 00:44:31.579 compass, and it's like they're, they're playing a part in, in a bad movie that 00:44:31.579 --> 00:44:34.829 they feel they're assigned, so I don't think that applies necessarily just to 00:44:34.829 --> 00:44:41.330 policing, but it, it applies to many other aspects of life, like, um, uh, and then 00:44:41.580 --> 00:44:46.965 the whole bit about, uh, Uh, you know, a lot of people feel that something didn't 00:44:46.965 --> 00:44:49.505 happen if nobody knows that it happened. 00:44:50.545 --> 00:44:50.935 Travis Bader: But 00:44:50.995 --> 00:44:56.255 Mark Horsley: if, if you're answering to yourself and you know, it happened, 00:44:56.395 --> 00:44:58.044 uh, you know, then it happened. 00:44:58.044 --> 00:44:58.914 That's it. 00:44:58.915 --> 00:45:00.424 So, but, but watch people. 00:45:00.424 --> 00:45:05.095 I mean, you know, uh, they betray themselves in their own life because 00:45:05.095 --> 00:45:07.595 they're not following who they really are. 00:45:07.595 --> 00:45:08.639 They're playing a part. 00:45:09.220 --> 00:45:13.850 You know, a bad part in a bad movie in their, in their lives, right? 00:45:13.890 --> 00:45:17.359 So I, I don't think that's, I mean, it's, it's human nature. 00:45:17.359 --> 00:45:22.450 It's part of understanding, uh, uh, humanity, the imperfection in people. 00:45:22.830 --> 00:45:25.040 Uh, but I think it's really important to understand. 00:45:25.370 --> 00:45:29.795 Travis Bader: Did you take the time to create a, um, A checklist of 00:45:29.805 --> 00:45:31.475 your value system and everything. 00:45:31.485 --> 00:45:34.455 So you knew that you're, or is it just square to where you got it? 00:45:34.455 --> 00:45:35.275 You know where it's at. 00:45:37.095 --> 00:45:40.035 Mark Horsley: No, I, I think I review that regularly. 00:45:40.035 --> 00:45:45.084 And then, and then, um, you know, uh, the same thing in a, in a, in 00:45:45.084 --> 00:45:49.315 a marriage long term partnership of like, what's the most important thing. 00:45:49.740 --> 00:45:52.810 You know, list of priorities, that, that kind of thing. 00:45:52.820 --> 00:45:57.640 And it always has to do with that, but, but it was always very, I mean, it's 00:45:57.640 --> 00:46:02.729 clear to me, um, the more complicated people make decisions, the less likely 00:46:02.730 --> 00:46:04.410 they are to follow a path, right? 00:46:04.419 --> 00:46:08.670 So the, the simpler and clearer it is, uh, the easier it is. 00:46:08.670 --> 00:46:12.150 I mean, I gotta, I gotta, I don't know if you have time, you'll probably edit 00:46:12.150 --> 00:46:16.950 this out cause it's a bit racy, but, um, I taught a course down the end. 00:46:17.270 --> 00:46:23.890 Uh, location in the United States, and, uh, um, there was a student on the course 00:46:23.900 --> 00:46:29.749 who was having, uh, difficulty with her gun, and, um, I assisted her with that, 00:46:29.770 --> 00:46:36.215 colleague to colleague, uh, got it fixed, and, um, Uh, she was very appreciative, 00:46:36.265 --> 00:46:38.795 uh, and would come and sit with me. 00:46:38.795 --> 00:46:39.885 It was a week long course. 00:46:39.885 --> 00:46:43.275 At lunchtime, I introduced her to other instructors, my friends, and you know, 00:46:43.275 --> 00:46:45.135 I'm just a kind of friendly, outgoing guy. 00:46:45.655 --> 00:46:51.135 Well, the Friday comes around, she shows up at my door, and, um, she had, 00:46:51.144 --> 00:46:54.075 uh, a bottle of wine and two glasses. 00:46:54.750 --> 00:46:56.550 And I, and I said, Oh yeah, come on in. 00:46:56.570 --> 00:46:57.600 We're just cleaning guns. 00:46:57.630 --> 00:47:01.210 Uh, I don't drink wine, but, uh, my buddy Dale will have a glass of your wine. 00:47:01.210 --> 00:47:01.380 Right. 00:47:01.380 --> 00:47:02.850 He, she didn't know he was in there. 00:47:03.189 --> 00:47:08.740 And so she, you know, she says, well, you know, um, uh, I'm going to back 00:47:08.750 --> 00:47:13.030 up just a little bit cause I missed a really important part, this, you can tell 00:47:13.030 --> 00:47:14.690 this isn't rehearsed cause I missed it. 00:47:15.555 --> 00:47:21.115 The Thursday was a banquet and she said to me, uh, that, uh, there's 00:47:21.155 --> 00:47:23.305 limited parking at this banquet. 00:47:23.305 --> 00:47:25.075 So we should probably drive together. 00:47:25.635 --> 00:47:28.325 I said, Hey guys, there's limited parking at this banquet. 00:47:28.494 --> 00:47:32.725 I had a minivan rented and I, I cleared everything out, put the seats up, 00:47:32.745 --> 00:47:34.174 you know, all my equipment out of it. 00:47:34.215 --> 00:47:36.655 And like nine of us pack into this minivan. 00:47:36.945 --> 00:47:37.805 We get to the. 00:47:38.440 --> 00:47:44.320 Place for the banquet and it looks like an empty Costco parking lot, but I didn't 00:47:44.320 --> 00:47:48.079 think anything of it So then the next day she shows up with a glass wine. 00:47:48.250 --> 00:47:51.770 Well, she says we should go out to dinner So it's a good idea. 00:47:51.770 --> 00:47:54.710 Hey, I'll call some of my buddies and Dale. 00:47:54.710 --> 00:47:55.609 Hey Dale, you want to go? 00:47:55.620 --> 00:48:00.630 You know, so we go there's like 12 of us out for dinner And then, uh, 00:48:00.630 --> 00:48:02.490 I get back and I've taught all week. 00:48:02.490 --> 00:48:06.150 I've been up for a run every morning, um, uh, uh, you know, try 00:48:06.150 --> 00:48:08.130 to maintain my fitness schedule. 00:48:08.560 --> 00:48:10.730 And, um, I'm, I'm heading to bed. 00:48:10.760 --> 00:48:11.540 I am bagged. 00:48:11.540 --> 00:48:12.360 She knocks on the door. 00:48:12.420 --> 00:48:12.720 Yeah. 00:48:13.450 --> 00:48:15.424 And, uh, I forgot my, my phone. 00:48:16.065 --> 00:48:17.045 Wine glasses. 00:48:17.165 --> 00:48:20.595 Oh, come on in, grab them and I'm like hoping she'll grab them and 00:48:20.615 --> 00:48:23.975 leave, but I'm being polite and I go, uh, she's I hope she doesn't. 00:48:24.775 --> 00:48:27.574 You know, I don't want to draw attention to the fact that a couple of her buttons 00:48:27.574 --> 00:48:29.154 are undone, you know, and embarrass her. 00:48:29.154 --> 00:48:32.054 So I'm I'm I'm politely averting my eyes and then. 00:48:32.470 --> 00:48:38.120 She, she leans over and, and I, I, I'm thinking to myself, her back must be sore. 00:48:38.120 --> 00:48:40.940 You know, she's kind of leaning over and, and then she gets on 00:48:40.940 --> 00:48:42.910 the bed and I thought, well, she, I guess she's kind of stretching. 00:48:44.210 --> 00:48:45.709 No, I didn't clue in at all. 00:48:46.090 --> 00:48:46.280 Right. 00:48:47.110 --> 00:48:49.229 I I've been married, I've been married forever. 00:48:49.229 --> 00:48:50.654 I didn't clue in at all. 00:48:50.895 --> 00:48:55.045 And, and then finally it was like this light bulb went on and I, I thought, oh 00:48:55.045 --> 00:48:58.385 my God, I knew she was, she was married. 00:48:58.385 --> 00:49:04.215 She was from a, uh, another agency and all this kind of, but the funniest part 00:49:04.265 --> 00:49:09.144 was when I suddenly realized, because I'm not, I don't fix someone's gun 00:49:09.145 --> 00:49:10.995 because I want to get them into bed. 00:49:11.225 --> 00:49:13.485 I don't, I'm not polite to a person. 00:49:13.485 --> 00:49:14.605 And you don't not looking for. 00:49:14.635 --> 00:49:14.725 Yeah. 00:49:15.455 --> 00:49:16.905 Don't see what you're not looking for. 00:49:17.065 --> 00:49:17.525 Anyway. 00:49:17.525 --> 00:49:17.565 Okay. 00:49:17.850 --> 00:49:22.920 My wife flew in to, uh, uh, the, the, the next day, and the first 00:49:22.920 --> 00:49:26.200 thing I did is tell her this story, and she laughed and laughed, and 00:49:26.200 --> 00:49:27.490 she says, you're so oblivious. 00:49:27.490 --> 00:49:31.609 I said, well, you know, I'm not looking for it, but yeah, so my, 00:49:31.990 --> 00:49:36.350 I guess my point in a long winded way is, my life is very simple. 00:49:37.120 --> 00:49:41.740 Because I have this code and I am who I am. 00:49:41.800 --> 00:49:46.480 And I don't, I don't spend there all that time with the devil on this shoulder 00:49:46.480 --> 00:49:50.140 and the angel on this shoulder, you know, trying to talk me into things. 00:49:50.150 --> 00:49:51.949 It's life is very straightforward. 00:49:51.949 --> 00:49:54.009 My priorities are straightforward. 00:49:54.109 --> 00:49:54.299 I 00:49:54.800 --> 00:49:56.230 Travis Bader: found that, and I do it myself. 00:49:56.269 --> 00:50:00.350 I'll sit down and I'll create goal lists, you know, personally within, for 00:50:00.350 --> 00:50:06.245 the family, for work and, and then when things come up, you I'll take a look. 00:50:06.255 --> 00:50:07.775 Where does it fall on this list? 00:50:07.825 --> 00:50:08.985 Is it on this side of this side? 00:50:08.985 --> 00:50:10.025 Is it a yes or is it no? 00:50:10.025 --> 00:50:12.135 And it makes, it makes my decisions really easy. 00:50:12.135 --> 00:50:15.244 And every once in a while, something might come up like a business 00:50:15.244 --> 00:50:17.084 opportunity that sounds really good. 00:50:17.084 --> 00:50:20.934 And it's like, okay, do I have to reevaluate my list? 00:50:21.624 --> 00:50:23.065 And I can take a look. 00:50:23.165 --> 00:50:24.820 Um, Nope, sorry. 00:50:24.820 --> 00:50:25.470 I'm going to turn it down. 00:50:25.470 --> 00:50:28.050 Cause it's going to take my eyes off of what I'm trying to get at over here. 00:50:28.540 --> 00:50:33.270 Um, but I will, I will do a sort of an iterative approach to 00:50:33.689 --> 00:50:37.850 looking at where the, um, uh, the direction like for the businesses. 00:50:38.335 --> 00:50:40.015 But the North star never changes. 00:50:40.075 --> 00:50:40.855 It's always the same. 00:50:41.105 --> 00:50:45.215 So if it doesn't lead me to the North star, the decision is simple. 00:50:45.335 --> 00:50:46.195 I just don't do it. 00:50:46.925 --> 00:50:52.144 Mark Horsley: I think, uh, uh, people do two things that like, I mean, I supporting 00:50:52.144 --> 00:50:56.295 a hundred percent what you're saying, but they do two things that, uh, they 00:50:56.295 --> 00:50:59.805 spend a whole bunch of time worrying about things that haven't happened. 00:51:00.455 --> 00:51:02.345 And that just clutters their whole mind. 00:51:02.775 --> 00:51:07.285 And then the flip side of that is they don't have a direction. 00:51:07.835 --> 00:51:11.005 And if you don't, you know, if you don't have a goal, how do you know 00:51:11.034 --> 00:51:13.824 that you're going to, you know, how do you achieve getting there? 00:51:13.845 --> 00:51:16.305 It's like, it's like you don't have a map, but you're hoping 00:51:16.305 --> 00:51:17.584 to get somewhere, you know? 00:51:17.625 --> 00:51:19.865 And, uh, so it's very straightforward. 00:51:19.865 --> 00:51:23.285 And I'm not saying that life doesn't present difficult decisions, but 00:51:23.285 --> 00:51:27.465 most, most of them are not that difficult if you know who you are. 00:51:27.535 --> 00:51:32.175 And, and if you're in a relationship where your goals are, are written 00:51:32.175 --> 00:51:35.854 down and they're set and, uh, you know, like, I mean, one, one really 00:51:35.855 --> 00:51:37.775 important one is, is finances. 00:51:37.805 --> 00:51:42.884 Like, uh, you know, if you look at it, is that, is this consistent with my goals? 00:51:43.034 --> 00:51:46.274 Is this within my discretionary range or not? 00:51:46.425 --> 00:51:46.625 Right? 00:51:47.085 --> 00:51:51.465 So, yeah, it's, life is more simple than most people make it. 00:51:51.755 --> 00:51:57.045 And then most of the things that cause the biggest disruption are things 00:51:57.045 --> 00:51:59.965 that people regret later, most often. 00:52:00.035 --> 00:52:05.850 And I, and I take this from, Like in my, in my policing career, uh, you know, 00:52:05.880 --> 00:52:12.010 24 years as a supervisor manager, uh, I learned a lot of things about people. 00:52:12.060 --> 00:52:16.439 And a lot of the time I felt like I was an anthropologist looking at a completely 00:52:16.439 --> 00:52:21.270 different species because really smart people sometimes do really stupid things. 00:52:21.569 --> 00:52:21.889 Yeah. 00:52:21.890 --> 00:52:22.097 Travis Bader: You 00:52:22.097 --> 00:52:22.304 Mark Horsley: know. 00:52:22.525 --> 00:52:25.025 And they could have been avoided and their life would have been 00:52:25.025 --> 00:52:26.495 a lot better without that. 00:52:26.955 --> 00:52:30.785 And it doesn't mean, you know, being afraid to confront things that need to be 00:52:30.785 --> 00:52:34.045 confronted to standing up to things you believe that has nothing to do with it. 00:52:34.045 --> 00:52:38.055 It just has to do with, you know, making decisions that are consistent with 00:52:38.055 --> 00:52:40.364 your values, with your moral compass. 00:52:40.364 --> 00:52:42.065 That's, that's why they call it a moral compass. 00:52:42.075 --> 00:52:42.305 Yeah. 00:52:42.305 --> 00:52:42.515 Right. 00:52:42.915 --> 00:52:44.085 You know, that's why it's called that. 00:52:44.085 --> 00:52:45.025 It's pretty descriptive. 00:52:45.115 --> 00:52:45.595 Travis Bader: That's right. 00:52:45.645 --> 00:52:47.885 It's not like, uh, you Who was a politician talking 00:52:47.885 --> 00:52:49.145 about situational ethics? 00:52:50.305 --> 00:52:50.755 Mark Horsley: And he says, Oh, 00:52:50.755 --> 00:52:52.815 Travis Bader: you know, you just, uh, depending on what the situation 00:52:52.815 --> 00:52:55.784 is, and then you can see what ethics that I'm going to have. 00:52:55.815 --> 00:52:58.664 No, no, you have your ethics and you apply it to the situation. 00:52:58.955 --> 00:53:00.075 It doesn't work that way. 00:53:00.104 --> 00:53:00.575 Come on. 00:53:00.764 --> 00:53:01.204 Yeah. 00:53:02.134 --> 00:53:06.445 So, you know, uh, three and a half work, three and a half years, you're 00:53:06.445 --> 00:53:09.495 working a drug case as looking through some of the stuff here. 00:53:09.495 --> 00:53:13.465 I think you're probably, uh, in a biker role at that, that point. 00:53:15.165 --> 00:53:20.595 Mark Horsley: Uh, yes, there was a couple of assignments where I, I played a long 00:53:20.595 --> 00:53:26.495 term assignments where I played a biker, um, necessary for the investigation. 00:53:26.704 --> 00:53:26.924 Travis Bader: Yeah. 00:53:27.235 --> 00:53:31.254 So on shift, off shift, you're going to have to look like a biker, just like 00:53:31.254 --> 00:53:34.444 the French, French bank robber, right? 00:53:34.444 --> 00:53:36.945 Or the, Cool Quad Bank, Robert. 00:53:37.545 --> 00:53:37.905 Mark Horsley: Yeah. 00:53:37.965 --> 00:53:41.145 Uh, yeah, that was difficult at times for sure. 00:53:41.265 --> 00:53:45.375 And, and there, I, I certainly, uh, appreciated assignments that didn't 00:53:45.375 --> 00:53:47.595 require, uh, being that extreme. 00:53:47.600 --> 00:53:51.795 And I, and I gotta say that during these timeframes, that was more 00:53:51.800 --> 00:53:53.475 important than it is right now. 00:53:53.480 --> 00:53:58.305 Like, I like the fact that, uh, as a society, we're not as judgmental about 00:53:58.305 --> 00:54:04.185 a nose ring, multiple piercings, a beard, uh, you know, we don't have as. 00:54:04.585 --> 00:54:08.205 Uh, like there was a long period of time, especially difficult for women 00:54:08.205 --> 00:54:12.405 where only a certain body type was, uh, considered to be fit and healthy. 00:54:12.685 --> 00:54:16.615 And now we have, uh, uh, much greater range, but a lot of this took place 00:54:16.965 --> 00:54:20.635 during timeframes that were far more judgmental than they are now. 00:54:20.644 --> 00:54:25.735 So as a society, that's one area we've advanced in, but yes, that was a 00:54:25.735 --> 00:54:28.985 problem, uh, during a, uh, a few times. 00:54:29.105 --> 00:54:30.125 Travis Bader: Did you ever get made? 00:54:34.625 --> 00:54:37.655 Well, did you ever get, uh, called out? 00:54:38.455 --> 00:54:42.145 Like, were you after an extended period of being undercover? 00:54:42.155 --> 00:54:47.445 Did anybody ever say, wait a minute, I saw the outline of his badge and his wallet. 00:54:47.485 --> 00:54:48.275 The challenge? 00:54:48.295 --> 00:54:48.745 Mark Horsley: Oh yeah. 00:54:48.824 --> 00:54:49.715 Obviously nothing that bad. 00:54:49.715 --> 00:54:50.225 For sure. 00:54:50.275 --> 00:54:50.505 Yeah. 00:54:50.545 --> 00:54:50.825 Yeah. 00:54:51.094 --> 00:54:57.785 Well, the challenge did, but here's the beautiful thing is, um, the criminal 00:54:57.815 --> 00:55:03.060 element of, Gets really jerked around by people who did the work that I did, and 00:55:03.060 --> 00:55:09.840 I have no remorse or no apology for it because after being investigated using 00:55:09.840 --> 00:55:13.840 techniques that were authorized and approved and are legal and convicted and 00:55:13.840 --> 00:55:17.859 all kinds of things, or even just the threat of, uh, arrest and conviction, 00:55:18.159 --> 00:55:23.780 all of a sudden that 90 year old lady using the walker going by their house, 00:55:23.800 --> 00:55:28.054 that's Horsley, that master of disguise, you know, there he is, you know, yeah. 00:55:28.285 --> 00:55:31.745 And then, so they'd see cops everywhere, but, uh, I mean, I got a, I got 00:55:31.745 --> 00:55:33.385 a good story about getting made. 00:55:33.475 --> 00:55:33.735 Yeah. 00:55:33.875 --> 00:55:34.265 Okay. 00:55:34.395 --> 00:55:40.024 So this is years and years ago, uh, I was buying, uh, cocaine in a 00:55:40.024 --> 00:55:46.474 restaurant and, um, and I had made five or six buys from the same people. 00:55:47.325 --> 00:55:53.305 And, uh, then I went back in and they said, yeah, uh, but, um, 00:55:53.885 --> 00:55:55.035 we'll meet you in the rear lane. 00:55:55.580 --> 00:55:56.950 I said, okay, yeah, no problem. 00:55:56.970 --> 00:56:02.190 So we go out the rear lane and they came out with baseball bats, two of them. 00:56:02.390 --> 00:56:02.790 Whoops. 00:56:02.880 --> 00:56:08.170 And, um, this seemed odd to me cause they didn't have gloves or balls, right? 00:56:08.530 --> 00:56:11.139 And, uh, it wasn't really baseball weather. 00:56:11.140 --> 00:56:17.630 It was raining and, you know, down in Vancouver and, and, uh, so I looked 00:56:17.630 --> 00:56:23.445 at this and I thought, okay, um, You know, and this thought process I'm 00:56:23.445 --> 00:56:26.335 explaining takes place in a nanosecond. 00:56:26.525 --> 00:56:26.795 Of course. 00:56:26.805 --> 00:56:30.384 As a police officer, what do you do if you're, you know, you're cornered 00:56:30.384 --> 00:56:32.375 by a couple guys with baseball bats? 00:56:32.424 --> 00:56:36.655 Um, you know, it's a use of force situation and, and commands and, 00:56:36.664 --> 00:56:40.595 uh, and escalating, you know, use of force, uh, whatever. 00:56:41.045 --> 00:56:42.515 But as a bad guy, what do you do? 00:56:43.875 --> 00:56:44.995 That's exactly what I did. 00:56:45.895 --> 00:56:52.325 So I, I ran away and, uh, uh, which made sense, let a couple hours pass, 00:56:52.585 --> 00:56:56.754 went and changed my clothes, went back into the restaurant and said, 00:56:57.004 --> 00:56:59.645 what the F were you guys doing? 00:56:59.894 --> 00:57:05.650 I actually, Shit myself, and I had to change my pants, like why were you guys, 00:57:06.040 --> 00:57:09.689 well, we thought you were a cop, and then they sold to me, and, and we built 00:57:09.689 --> 00:57:16.360 her, we built her case, and away we went, so yeah, yes, was I challenged, uh, in 00:57:16.360 --> 00:57:19.719 many, many, um, circumstances, yeah. 00:57:19.959 --> 00:57:20.039 Okay. 00:57:20.099 --> 00:57:20.519 No. 00:57:20.600 --> 00:57:26.680 Um, I did, uh, hope I'm not treading too close to the line here. 00:57:26.700 --> 00:57:37.159 I did, uh, uh, uh, on one particular, uh, case get searched and I was armed and, 00:57:37.160 --> 00:57:41.590 uh, now I beat the search and, uh, I'm not going to get into how I did that. 00:57:41.590 --> 00:57:42.090 Fair enough. 00:57:42.180 --> 00:57:48.730 But, um, but, uh, I will say that, um, uh, people sometimes don't sense 00:57:48.740 --> 00:57:50.320 something they don't expect to find. 00:57:51.345 --> 00:57:56.235 Um, uh, and so, you know, it, it has, certainly there is, we're back to 00:57:56.235 --> 00:57:59.945 that high level of confidence, you know, I heard, I heard it said there's 00:57:59.985 --> 00:58:03.164 a college basketball player that everybody's talking about right now. 00:58:03.165 --> 00:58:05.205 And, uh, they say, oh, he's awful cocky. 00:58:05.535 --> 00:58:06.954 And I just said, he has to be. 00:58:07.880 --> 00:58:12.230 You know, so, you know, you do need that high level of confidence. 00:58:12.230 --> 00:58:12.580 Right. 00:58:12.650 --> 00:58:17.770 So, but, uh, uh, you know, if you want to expand a little bit on 00:58:17.770 --> 00:58:20.580 the appearance thing, did you want to talk a little bit about that? 00:58:20.630 --> 00:58:20.800 Yeah. 00:58:20.800 --> 00:58:21.149 Okay. 00:58:21.149 --> 00:58:24.830 So, there was a time where, um, I had an old car. 00:58:25.275 --> 00:58:30.135 Uh, the transmission went, young family, money was tight, you know, we got the 00:58:30.135 --> 00:58:32.235 big mortgage, we got all that going on. 00:58:32.265 --> 00:58:35.204 I needed a car and I needed it now. 00:58:35.605 --> 00:58:42.615 And I went into the Toyota dealership in Port Moody and they would not talk to me. 00:58:43.255 --> 00:58:44.095 They would not. 00:58:44.344 --> 00:58:48.704 And I was there with my family, very respectable looking wife 00:58:48.704 --> 00:58:49.525 and all the rest of that. 00:58:49.525 --> 00:58:54.874 But I did have, uh, you know, an appearance that was, you know, particular 00:58:54.874 --> 00:58:56.144 to a character that I was playing. 00:58:56.405 --> 00:58:59.835 And, uh, went to another Toyota dealership, walked in, 00:58:59.835 --> 00:59:02.024 bought a car, but they had 0. 00:59:02.025 --> 00:59:05.945 9 percent financing, and I took their financing, so I had to, 00:59:06.055 --> 00:59:07.915 you know, give my employment. 00:59:08.390 --> 00:59:08.830 Stuff. 00:59:08.830 --> 00:59:09.080 Right. 00:59:09.490 --> 00:59:12.110 And, uh, and I just said to the guy, I really appreciate 00:59:12.110 --> 00:59:13.080 that you didn't judge me. 00:59:13.080 --> 00:59:14.910 And he just looked at me and said, well, you never know. 00:59:15.180 --> 00:59:15.450 Right. 00:59:15.960 --> 00:59:21.819 And, and it was true, but there was another, uh, case where my wife and 00:59:21.819 --> 00:59:23.739 I had, we were both shift workers. 00:59:23.739 --> 00:59:27.159 We had days off, uh, in the week we went out to Fort Langley 00:59:27.160 --> 00:59:29.470 for lunch and it was snowy. 00:59:30.185 --> 00:59:33.195 And there was an elderly man helping his wife who was 00:59:33.195 --> 00:59:34.935 wheelchair bound into their car. 00:59:35.425 --> 00:59:40.095 And me being me, I went over and offered to help scared the bejesus 00:59:40.115 --> 00:59:44.754 out of them because, you know, it was an intimidating, uh, appearance. 00:59:44.835 --> 00:59:45.235 Sure. 00:59:45.284 --> 00:59:52.064 And, uh, but I do also enjoy toying with people during, during that time. 00:59:52.064 --> 00:59:57.690 So I, we bought a house and we moved in and And we couldn't tell my neighbors 00:59:57.690 --> 00:59:59.380 who I was or what I was doing. 00:59:59.490 --> 01:00:02.900 And, uh, so you've got this very pretty, respectable 01:00:02.900 --> 01:00:05.300 looking nurse coming and going. 01:00:05.309 --> 01:00:07.420 And it was in the day where they used to wear their nurse's 01:00:07.420 --> 01:00:08.720 uniform, coming and going. 01:00:08.960 --> 01:00:15.850 And this dirtbag, uh, who was vague about what he did for a living and left, you 01:00:15.850 --> 01:00:19.220 know, three o'clock in the afternoon, came home three or four in the morning. 01:00:19.220 --> 01:00:24.360 And, uh, And, uh, and, and I did kind of, uh, enjoy toying with them and I'd 01:00:24.360 --> 01:00:27.150 have friends and brothers, you know, you knew the neighbor was listening 01:00:27.150 --> 01:00:32.040 over the fence and they'd talk about my prison time and, you know, it was, 01:00:32.469 --> 01:00:35.879 we kind of toying with them a little bit, but I think one of my favorites 01:00:35.880 --> 01:00:41.960 was I was a volunteer youth coach and I was doing a, uh, an investigation 01:00:41.960 --> 01:00:43.940 that involved a biker persona. 01:00:44.000 --> 01:00:49.910 And, uh, so I rode the, uh, uh, the The, uh, motorcycle, uh, up to the community 01:00:49.910 --> 01:00:52.720 policing station, uh, made lots of noise. 01:00:52.720 --> 01:00:57.200 They knew I was coming and I went in, uh, and they said you had to fill this 01:00:57.200 --> 01:00:59.229 thing out for a criminal records check. 01:00:59.640 --> 01:01:02.280 So I wasn't going to tell them who I was, what I did for a living. 01:01:02.700 --> 01:01:05.864 Fill this out, you know, date of birth, name, all that kind of stuff. 01:01:06.565 --> 01:01:10.835 And the lady behind the counter, she says to me, uh, do you have, 01:01:10.905 --> 01:01:13.115 uh, any criminal convictions? 01:01:13.165 --> 01:01:16.595 And I went, uh, convictions? 01:01:17.975 --> 01:01:18.175 No. 01:01:18.895 --> 01:01:19.055 No. 01:01:19.265 --> 01:01:20.334 I was toying with her. 01:01:20.504 --> 01:01:21.224 That's funny. 01:01:21.664 --> 01:01:22.985 You gotta have fun with life, right? 01:01:22.985 --> 01:01:23.374 They do. 01:01:23.375 --> 01:01:24.024 You do. 01:01:24.025 --> 01:01:26.785 So, yeah, I mean, there was, there were funny parts. 01:01:26.795 --> 01:01:30.135 My wife got really tired of, uh, like air travel where 01:01:30.135 --> 01:01:31.425 they'd look at me, search her. 01:01:31.985 --> 01:01:32.935 Uh, yeah. 01:01:32.935 --> 01:01:33.285 Of course. 01:01:33.365 --> 01:01:35.845 She got really tired of that, but she saw the humor in it. 01:01:35.885 --> 01:01:37.685 I mean, you know, yeah. 01:01:37.904 --> 01:01:42.665 And fortunately there wasn't, you know, there were a few long, long term ones. 01:01:42.665 --> 01:01:43.015 And then. 01:01:43.330 --> 01:01:48.340 My kids got to the age where, um, I was very selective in my assignments. 01:01:48.630 --> 01:01:52.479 I didn't ever want to give them the impression that I was ashamed 01:01:52.480 --> 01:01:53.620 of what I did for a living. 01:01:54.149 --> 01:01:58.889 And unfortunately, your value as an undercover operator, especially as a, as 01:01:58.890 --> 01:02:04.220 a man, because the criminal world is quite sexist, uh, increases the older you are. 01:02:05.085 --> 01:02:09.995 And the challenge is, you know, the older you get, the less you want to 01:02:09.995 --> 01:02:12.445 be intrusive to your personal life. 01:02:12.505 --> 01:02:13.075 Right. 01:02:13.105 --> 01:02:14.665 So yeah, that was part of it. 01:02:14.665 --> 01:02:16.024 Well, 01:02:16.305 --> 01:02:18.505 Travis Bader: you mentioned that, you know, it's been what, three and a half 01:02:18.505 --> 01:02:23.014 years since you've retired and you really haven't thought about the 35 years of. 01:02:23.325 --> 01:02:26.265 Of policing until kind of, you know, putting thoughts 01:02:26.265 --> 01:02:27.755 together for the podcast here. 01:02:28.585 --> 01:02:32.145 So many people will define themselves by their career. 01:02:32.154 --> 01:02:37.215 You seem to have had a fairly successful transition from long service in 01:02:37.215 --> 01:02:39.425 policing over into civilian life. 01:02:39.994 --> 01:02:41.484 How did you find that transition? 01:02:41.484 --> 01:02:44.735 And, uh, what did you do to prepare for that? 01:02:46.325 --> 01:02:50.675 Mark Horsley: Uh, well, I think if you go back to all the way 01:02:50.675 --> 01:02:54.075 back to entering policing, for me, it was a consolation career. 01:02:54.365 --> 01:02:58.475 Um, I, I, I wasn't one of these people that wanted to be a 01:02:58.475 --> 01:03:00.595 police officer from a young age. 01:03:00.795 --> 01:03:06.055 I pondered it a little bit in high school, um, but I went off and did other things. 01:03:06.055 --> 01:03:09.095 I joined the police department when I was 25, but I was already 01:03:09.095 --> 01:03:10.785 married, already owned a house. 01:03:10.884 --> 01:03:13.864 Uh, I was already, uh, going with my life. 01:03:14.325 --> 01:03:16.625 I already had a life outside of work. 01:03:16.980 --> 01:03:23.250 Um, always maintained a life outside of work and, uh, uh, uh, I would 01:03:23.260 --> 01:03:27.210 often see colleagues and I mean, if you're really a person that tries 01:03:27.210 --> 01:03:30.519 to be honest with yourself, you see people who are deceiving themselves. 01:03:30.540 --> 01:03:31.949 You see examples of that. 01:03:32.240 --> 01:03:33.270 It's not to be smug. 01:03:33.280 --> 01:03:35.199 It's just to go, okay, I don't want to do that. 01:03:35.499 --> 01:03:38.310 But they'd say, you know, I'm a real family man and they would 01:03:38.310 --> 01:03:43.280 use that as, uh, an excuse for a mediocre career as opposed to. 01:03:43.465 --> 01:03:48.375 It really being true, but for me, it was, I had work weeks that were 01:03:48.385 --> 01:03:52.925 very demanding, but I was also a good enough planner to plan things. 01:03:52.995 --> 01:03:56.835 Uh, I I've said to my kids, don't tell me you didn't have a good childhood 01:03:56.835 --> 01:03:58.645 cause I've got the photos, right? 01:03:58.774 --> 01:04:02.485 You know, of all the things, the camping trips, the, the, the canoeing, 01:04:02.485 --> 01:04:04.424 all the outdoor stuff we did together. 01:04:04.434 --> 01:04:13.145 And, uh, uh, then when it came to retiring, um, Uh, I was, um, I, I think 01:04:13.145 --> 01:04:18.355 the best way to describe it is I loved going to work, I enjoyed, uh, my career, 01:04:18.385 --> 01:04:24.384 the ups and downs, uh, the, the victories, the defeats, the, I enjoyed all the 01:04:24.385 --> 01:04:29.715 living, everything I learned, and as I approached the end of it, I kind of felt 01:04:29.715 --> 01:04:34.685 like, I had been in high school for 10 years and it was just time to leave now. 01:04:35.115 --> 01:04:36.925 And so I felt good about leaving. 01:04:36.955 --> 01:04:40.045 I didn't, right to my last day, I never had trouble going. 01:04:40.045 --> 01:04:41.415 I never, I never hated it. 01:04:41.415 --> 01:04:46.854 It was a very interesting thing as I kind of, uh, reviewed my 01:04:46.854 --> 01:04:52.135 career and purged documents and files as I got closer to retiring. 01:04:53.985 --> 01:04:59.490 It was, uh, Uh, probably a good example of the, uh, compartmentalization that 01:04:59.490 --> 01:05:05.370 I did is when I looked at files, I looked at really graphic, violent 01:05:05.510 --> 01:05:10.980 incidents that I hadn't thought of at all in some cases 20 years. 01:05:11.380 --> 01:05:13.720 And I thought that was maybe a good sign. 01:05:14.280 --> 01:05:21.760 And um, uh, so when I, I left, I, I left feeling like I was 01:05:21.790 --> 01:05:24.600 turning this over to others. 01:05:24.895 --> 01:05:28.585 And that I was entering a new phase of my life. 01:05:28.625 --> 01:05:32.395 And, uh, so yeah, it's not that there's anything bad. 01:05:32.765 --> 01:05:35.475 It's just that, um, well, I'll give you an example. 01:05:35.555 --> 01:05:37.095 I did a tremendous amount of work. 01:05:37.095 --> 01:05:41.914 I had a side business where I did a lot of technical writing and, uh, you 01:05:41.915 --> 01:05:45.865 know, I'm a pretty good writer, uh, pretty, and I, I always had people 01:05:45.875 --> 01:05:48.655 saying, you know, you need to write all your stories when you retire. 01:05:48.975 --> 01:05:49.215 Travis Bader: Hmm. 01:05:50.315 --> 01:05:52.475 Mark Horsley: I, I'm not finished making them. 01:05:52.905 --> 01:05:53.265 Travis Bader: Yes. 01:05:53.960 --> 01:05:56.330 Mark Horsley: I don't want to sit and live in the past. 01:05:56.350 --> 01:05:58.140 I want to make the stories. 01:05:58.180 --> 01:06:00.800 I don't, and, and so a lot of them are going to be lost. 01:06:01.190 --> 01:06:06.260 Um, and, and I don't spend a tremendous amount of time focused on that. 01:06:06.260 --> 01:06:08.660 I'm more focused on the present and the future. 01:06:09.090 --> 01:06:10.180 So, yeah, the last thing. 01:06:10.230 --> 01:06:14.830 Three and a half years, uh, as a retired person have been fantastic. 01:06:15.220 --> 01:06:16.580 We staggered our retirements. 01:06:16.580 --> 01:06:21.220 My wife and I, uh, she retired two and a half years before I did, and that 01:06:21.220 --> 01:06:23.580 was, I think, a really good decision. 01:06:23.990 --> 01:06:28.780 Uh, she found all her own activities and her things to do and, and 01:06:28.790 --> 01:06:30.280 that worked out really well. 01:06:30.730 --> 01:06:37.480 Um, But, um, the last two weeks, uh, since you invited me to the podcast have been 01:06:37.490 --> 01:06:43.360 sort of, uh, lots of memories, nothing, nothing negative, just lots of things 01:06:43.360 --> 01:06:45.560 that I don't generally fill my mind with. 01:06:45.690 --> 01:06:45.880 So. 01:06:47.030 --> 01:06:49.600 Travis Bader: You know, I was thinking about negative 01:06:49.600 --> 01:06:50.790 memories and negative thoughts. 01:06:50.790 --> 01:06:52.600 And a lot of people will go through events. 01:06:52.610 --> 01:06:56.230 You're talking about some horrific things that you're looking at, that you're 01:06:56.230 --> 01:06:59.849 able to compartmentalize other people have a more difficult time with that. 01:06:59.850 --> 01:07:03.970 And that resiliency is, um, different in everybody. 01:07:04.855 --> 01:07:09.655 When people talk about PTSD, I was, uh, talking with Anthony 01:07:09.685 --> 01:07:14.085 Staziker, he goes by Staz and he's ex British special boat service. 01:07:14.085 --> 01:07:17.915 He's got a company called ThruDark with his, uh, uh, his friend, 01:07:17.915 --> 01:07:19.884 Louie, who's also special forces. 01:07:20.535 --> 01:07:22.564 And he was talking about PTSD. 01:07:22.565 --> 01:07:24.175 He's like, you know, everyone talks about, you know, the 01:07:24.175 --> 01:07:25.815 flashbacks, I get the flashbacks. 01:07:25.825 --> 01:07:26.425 So it's more like. 01:07:26.770 --> 01:07:27.570 It's really exciting. 01:07:27.570 --> 01:07:28.670 And I wish I could do that again. 01:07:29.310 --> 01:07:35.550 And it was, I thought it was interesting looking at different, um, mindsets and 01:07:35.550 --> 01:07:41.570 perspectives to stressful or traumatic events and how an individual can frame it 01:07:41.570 --> 01:07:46.520 for themselves to where it's either going to be detrimental to them or something 01:07:46.520 --> 01:07:48.870 that was an exciting, an event for them. 01:07:48.870 --> 01:07:49.280 So. 01:07:49.485 --> 01:07:50.315 I don't know if you. 01:07:50.325 --> 01:07:50.625 Okay. 01:07:50.625 --> 01:07:51.655 You opened a can of worms here. 01:07:51.945 --> 01:07:52.285 Sure I did. 01:07:52.755 --> 01:07:53.745 Mark Horsley: And that's a good thing. 01:07:54.395 --> 01:07:56.795 I have very, very strong feelings about this. 01:07:56.845 --> 01:08:03.384 Um, uh, because I've seen an industry exploit, um, uh, 01:08:03.385 --> 01:08:05.975 first responders, uh, military. 01:08:06.044 --> 01:08:12.915 And, and, um, there's been an exponential increase in PTSD cases. 01:08:13.315 --> 01:08:15.165 Um, PTSD is real. 01:08:15.345 --> 01:08:16.735 There's no question about it. 01:08:17.055 --> 01:08:27.125 But, um, our cases have gone way up, and my question is, how much of that 01:08:27.195 --> 01:08:29.925 is impacted by improper selection? 01:08:30.195 --> 01:08:32.075 Are we selecting the wrong people? 01:08:32.325 --> 01:08:35.135 What are we doing for resiliency training? 01:08:35.135 --> 01:08:39.254 Because there's no doubt that a person is far better off not having 01:08:39.435 --> 01:08:42.265 PTSD than being treated for PTSD. 01:08:43.165 --> 01:08:43.185 Yeah. 01:08:43.565 --> 01:08:51.155 Um, Uh, and then, uh, we've got what I view as a change in how we handle, uh, 01:08:51.185 --> 01:08:57.434 people post traumatic, uh, incidents, um, and I think that what we should be 01:08:57.434 --> 01:09:00.895 measuring is what is the impact of that. 01:09:01.134 --> 01:09:05.455 Because remember, I, I come from, you know, as a, as a collegiate athlete 01:09:05.455 --> 01:09:06.684 running track, it was a ball game. 01:09:06.685 --> 01:09:10.925 It's all about doing what I needed to do to run a faster time at a given distance 01:09:10.925 --> 01:09:15.614 as a, as a, uh, you know, precision pistol shooter is a rifle shooter. 01:09:15.614 --> 01:09:19.765 It's all about what can I do to put every hole in the X ring. 01:09:20.105 --> 01:09:21.515 And then you look at this. 01:09:21.555 --> 01:09:26.465 If you accept that it's better to, um, have people not have PTSD than treat it 01:09:26.465 --> 01:09:28.505 for them, what can we do to prevent it? 01:09:28.905 --> 01:09:36.510 Then, um, I, I went, uh, um, One for five in dealing with psychologists, 01:09:36.530 --> 01:09:39.020 good experiences to bad experiences. 01:09:39.020 --> 01:09:45.090 So I had one outstanding experience related to, uh, uh, uh, an employment 01:09:45.100 --> 01:09:51.675 provided psychologist and the other ones were horrific and, um, In one 01:09:51.675 --> 01:09:56.735 case, uh, I referred to, because, uh, in an incident, I suffered a 01:09:56.965 --> 01:09:58.825 brain injury, traumatic brain injury. 01:09:59.135 --> 01:10:03.985 Part of the healing of a brain that's been damaged and torn is that 01:10:03.994 --> 01:10:06.925 you get these very vivid dreams. 01:10:07.515 --> 01:10:13.445 Um, and the psychologist, And I explained this, and I didn't want to 01:10:13.445 --> 01:10:17.725 go to a psychologist, but the doctor who was handling my case said that, 01:10:17.755 --> 01:10:21.125 you know, to do everything you can to fully recover physically, emotionally, 01:10:21.125 --> 01:10:22.245 mentally, you should do this. 01:10:22.255 --> 01:10:22.985 So I went. 01:10:23.074 --> 01:10:23.334 Sure. 01:10:23.555 --> 01:10:28.034 And I'm explaining this, and she kept referring to it as nightmares. 01:10:28.064 --> 01:10:29.875 I said, wait a second, I never said nightmares. 01:10:29.875 --> 01:10:30.715 I'm talking about. 01:10:30.785 --> 01:10:35.845 Complex involved dreams, which is all part of getting that 01:10:35.855 --> 01:10:37.785 brain working together again. 01:10:37.785 --> 01:10:47.155 So, um, you know, I, I look at it, uh, and, um, uh, I don't have, uh, PTSD. 01:10:47.195 --> 01:10:48.805 I'm very thankful. 01:10:49.235 --> 01:10:50.235 Uh, but. 01:10:50.525 --> 01:10:56.285 In my career, I face the things that I expected I would have to face. 01:10:56.285 --> 01:11:00.414 And when I signed up, I knew that somebody might try to kill me. 01:11:00.415 --> 01:11:02.964 And yes, they did be different. 01:11:02.965 --> 01:11:07.565 People tried to, to kill me and, and these different things happened. 01:11:07.565 --> 01:11:12.265 And, uh, we've got to go back to, uh, fictional works. 01:11:12.365 --> 01:11:18.760 Uh, I'll tell you, man, uh, when it comes to use of force, uh, And, uh, 01:11:18.790 --> 01:11:23.720 people trying to hurt you or kill you, um, the trauma comes out of the 01:11:23.720 --> 01:11:26.290 fear of what could have been lost. 01:11:26.300 --> 01:11:26.330 Right. 01:11:26.340 --> 01:11:32.630 Not being a father there to my child, not being a husband there to my wife. 01:11:32.680 --> 01:11:37.439 It does not come at all from what somebody got that they deserved. 01:11:37.440 --> 01:11:37.759 Mm. 01:11:37.760 --> 01:11:40.540 And, uh, and so I look at it and go, okay. 01:11:41.235 --> 01:11:48.505 I knew what I signed up for, I got what I signed up for, um, PTSD 01:11:48.515 --> 01:11:51.695 to me would be something where somebody got something they were 01:11:51.715 --> 01:11:55.035 completely, um, uh, unprepared for. 01:11:55.435 --> 01:12:00.544 Like there was a case in Toronto, uh, Metro Toronto area where a fellow was in 01:12:00.545 --> 01:12:05.230 his front yard and, um, uh, A vehicle, uh, sped through his neighborhood, 01:12:05.230 --> 01:12:08.610 came up on his front lawn and killed two kids, two, two little kids. 01:12:08.760 --> 01:12:10.050 That's a PTSD case. 01:12:10.060 --> 01:12:15.530 Like, how, um, you know, somebody gets, uh, cancer, uh, that could 01:12:15.539 --> 01:12:21.605 be a PTSD case, um, My grandfather, uh, fought in World War I. 01:12:22.025 --> 01:12:24.825 He was shot and returned to battle. 01:12:24.855 --> 01:12:27.774 Uh, he was hit by a grenade, shrapnel, returned. 01:12:27.855 --> 01:12:29.385 He was a teenager. 01:12:29.945 --> 01:12:33.555 That's a different type of, he saw what he saw in trench 01:12:33.555 --> 01:12:35.074 warfare in the First World War. 01:12:35.165 --> 01:12:35.485 Sure. 01:12:35.524 --> 01:12:39.145 I can't go into the afterlife and say to him. 01:12:39.715 --> 01:12:44.175 If I am honored to meet him, that, uh, something that I did 01:12:44.175 --> 01:12:45.745 in policing has caused this. 01:12:45.755 --> 01:12:50.125 So, but having said everything I said, and I'm, I'm quite passionate about it. 01:12:50.425 --> 01:12:56.355 If I had PTSD, I would be addressing it, but I'd really rather just not. 01:12:57.044 --> 01:12:57.474 Travis Bader: You know, 01:12:57.784 --> 01:12:58.074 Mark Horsley: I, 01:12:58.575 --> 01:12:59.895 Travis Bader: I agree with that a hundred percent. 01:13:00.185 --> 01:13:04.585 I think when you say that an industry has been made around PTSD. 01:13:04.725 --> 01:13:05.315 It's despicable. 01:13:05.535 --> 01:13:10.385 Mark Horsley: It really is because it's predatory and it's, 01:13:10.455 --> 01:13:14.094 uh, it's, uh, exploiting people. 01:13:14.215 --> 01:13:19.985 And, uh, um, you know, like, I, I gotta, sorry, cause I'm, I'm so passionate 01:13:20.155 --> 01:13:25.475 about this when I went to see this psychologist and his name is Mike Webster. 01:13:25.705 --> 01:13:29.865 The first thing he said to me is my goal is to make my services 01:13:29.905 --> 01:13:32.005 unnecessary as soon as possible. 01:13:32.094 --> 01:13:32.704 Perfect. 01:13:32.940 --> 01:13:34.130 Dude, you're my guy. 01:13:34.140 --> 01:13:34.610 Yeah. 01:13:34.670 --> 01:13:35.110 Right. 01:13:35.160 --> 01:13:35.650 Yeah, exactly. 01:13:35.650 --> 01:13:36.850 I had one session with him. 01:13:37.030 --> 01:13:39.350 It lasted, you know, hour and a half. 01:13:39.420 --> 01:13:40.140 Now it was it. 01:13:40.370 --> 01:13:43.660 And, uh, and it was, it was awesome. 01:13:43.979 --> 01:13:46.740 As opposed to other ones. 01:13:46.810 --> 01:13:47.159 Once a 01:13:47.159 --> 01:13:49.230 Travis Bader: week, every week, the rest of your life. 01:13:49.685 --> 01:13:53.505 Mark Horsley: Well, I mean, there should be enough business without 01:13:53.515 --> 01:13:55.775 having to drum up business, you know? 01:13:56.375 --> 01:13:56.675 So. 01:13:56.725 --> 01:14:02.605 Travis Bader: Well, I'm, you know, uh, I have a, of the mindset that a lot of 01:14:02.605 --> 01:14:08.610 times the treatment is the poison and people who are, you know, Suffering 01:14:08.620 --> 01:14:12.320 from an event and they might not be able to put their finger on why that was. 01:14:12.320 --> 01:14:15.540 And they go see a professional and the professional says, well, you 01:14:15.540 --> 01:14:17.969 know, could be PTSD, it could be this. 01:14:19.099 --> 01:14:20.550 And they say, Oh, there it is. 01:14:20.849 --> 01:14:22.179 I am my PTSD. 01:14:22.330 --> 01:14:22.719 Got it. 01:14:22.729 --> 01:14:23.360 That's me. 01:14:23.400 --> 01:14:26.610 I'm, I'm Bob with the PTSD, whatever it is. 01:14:26.940 --> 01:14:33.790 Um, When the reality is it's like getting a cut or a broken bone. 01:14:33.800 --> 01:14:36.110 It's like, oh, you had an incident. 01:14:36.150 --> 01:14:38.450 It was, it looks like you have a broken bone there. 01:14:38.450 --> 01:14:38.630 Okay. 01:14:39.010 --> 01:14:41.289 Well, path forward is pretty simple here. 01:14:41.289 --> 01:14:42.229 We'll put it in the cast. 01:14:42.230 --> 01:14:47.220 We'll get you going forward and, and we'll have you out of here in no time. 01:14:47.220 --> 01:14:49.730 In a month, we can check back and see where you're at, but you'll probably have 01:14:49.730 --> 01:14:50.940 full mobility and you were good to go. 01:14:50.940 --> 01:14:55.279 And I think if people start taking that approach to, uh, their, their 01:14:56.000 --> 01:14:59.610 Emotional and mental injuries in the same way that they would approach a 01:14:59.610 --> 01:15:04.489 physical injury, I think would probably be, it would normalize it for people 01:15:04.490 --> 01:15:06.139 who are afraid of talking about it. 01:15:06.589 --> 01:15:09.309 And all of a sudden it's not this big monster out there. 01:15:09.310 --> 01:15:10.730 It's like, oh yeah, no, I had this thing. 01:15:10.730 --> 01:15:11.789 I'll just, I'll deal with it. 01:15:11.790 --> 01:15:13.199 And on we go. 01:15:13.955 --> 01:15:14.845 That's my two bits. 01:15:14.865 --> 01:15:17.895 I might have some people out there who hate that, that view, but, 01:15:17.895 --> 01:15:18.405 Mark Horsley: uh, that. 01:15:18.415 --> 01:15:21.015 Well, I mean, ultimately it should be the goal. 01:15:21.025 --> 01:15:24.075 So, uh, I mentioned this traumatic brain injury. 01:15:24.124 --> 01:15:29.154 I suffered, I dealt with a phenomenal, uh, doctor, uh, Dr. 01:15:29.154 --> 01:15:29.814 Rebye. 01:15:29.825 --> 01:15:32.734 He, um, he was just fantastic. 01:15:33.025 --> 01:15:41.325 And he said, you have to move forward, um, feeling like you had a brain injury. 01:15:41.680 --> 01:15:43.020 Not you have a brain injury. 01:15:43.020 --> 01:15:44.280 This is a key distinction. 01:15:44.350 --> 01:15:46.380 He said, did you ever pull your hamstring? 01:15:46.470 --> 01:15:50.070 When, when you, your hamstring, when you were running track, I said, yeah. 01:15:50.090 --> 01:15:54.349 He said, then, then in grade eight, you had a hamstring pull, but 01:15:54.520 --> 01:15:56.690 you don't have a hamstring pull. 01:15:56.720 --> 01:16:04.540 Now, uh, that being said, uh, we, If we focus on what we can do versus what we 01:16:04.540 --> 01:16:07.050 can't do, that's, uh, uh, a better way. 01:16:07.310 --> 01:16:10.719 One of the really key things he said, he said, I, he said, you can return 01:16:10.720 --> 01:16:12.169 to work with this brain injury. 01:16:12.420 --> 01:16:16.750 You can do better than you ever did before, outperform anything you ever did 01:16:16.750 --> 01:16:19.350 at work before, if you follow a few rules. 01:16:19.630 --> 01:16:22.560 And one of them, was doing your job. 01:16:22.600 --> 01:16:23.320 Do your job. 01:16:23.330 --> 01:16:24.670 Don't do everyone else's job. 01:16:24.690 --> 01:16:29.350 And, and, and it was like there was some kind of guidelines to how to succeed. 01:16:29.350 --> 01:16:32.319 And I listened to, you know, what he said about that and, 01:16:32.319 --> 01:16:34.029 uh, but you're absolutely right. 01:16:34.029 --> 01:16:39.799 You can have, um, psychological troubles with something, uh, look at it in 01:16:39.819 --> 01:16:44.269 athletic performances where sometimes people will have trouble overcoming 01:16:44.279 --> 01:16:48.920 something, but then they do overcome it and they become a world champion or, 01:16:48.960 --> 01:16:52.255 or, you know, they, they exceed their, their, their Previous performances. 01:16:52.555 --> 01:16:53.645 So absolutely. 01:16:53.645 --> 01:16:56.395 It's something that people can overcome. 01:16:56.835 --> 01:17:00.425 Uh, I gotta, you can edit this out, but it's a real quick story. 01:17:00.885 --> 01:17:07.035 Um, I, Andrea and I were, uh, you know, at a really busy stage of life. 01:17:07.050 --> 01:17:10.500 Two professionals, uh, I felt we'd become distant. 01:17:10.500 --> 01:17:11.310 We had kids. 01:17:11.310 --> 01:17:12.230 I was coaching. 01:17:12.230 --> 01:17:13.650 I had a side business. 01:17:13.680 --> 01:17:15.750 I was working a demanding profession. 01:17:16.170 --> 01:17:17.960 Um, you know, I'm an energetic person. 01:17:17.960 --> 01:17:21.840 I had a lot on the go, but I felt like we were just growing apart. 01:17:22.280 --> 01:17:27.090 And so there was, uh, uh, marriage counseling, uh, available, uh, 01:17:27.090 --> 01:17:30.700 through our, uh, human resources at the police department. 01:17:30.720 --> 01:17:32.770 And I went and saw a psychologist. 01:17:32.770 --> 01:17:34.109 Initially, Andrea wouldn't go. 01:17:35.055 --> 01:17:42.195 And then she, uh, uh, agreed to go and, you know, I'm working on this cause I 01:17:42.195 --> 01:17:44.335 want to be successful in this partnership. 01:17:44.344 --> 01:17:45.165 I love her dearly. 01:17:45.165 --> 01:17:46.745 I want this to, to work out. 01:17:47.214 --> 01:17:53.424 And, uh, um, she joined me and of course this was all supposed to be confidential. 01:17:53.535 --> 01:18:00.930 And, uh, the, um, uh, one of my former partners, uh, Uh, uh, came to 01:18:00.930 --> 01:18:03.580 talk to me and he says, how, how's things going with your marriage? 01:18:03.590 --> 01:18:05.230 And I said, well, like what's driving this? 01:18:05.260 --> 01:18:07.800 I hadn't said anything to anybody but Andrea. 01:18:07.879 --> 01:18:08.229 Yeah. 01:18:08.270 --> 01:18:10.360 So the confidentiality had been breached. 01:18:10.360 --> 01:18:10.770 Yes. 01:18:10.780 --> 01:18:11.850 Well, Andrea hit the roof. 01:18:11.919 --> 01:18:17.989 And, uh, uh, when she found out and, um, she refused to go to any more. 01:18:17.989 --> 01:18:19.340 And of course I felt betrayed. 01:18:19.340 --> 01:18:23.090 I didn't go to any more of these sessions, but we realized something. 01:18:23.650 --> 01:18:25.740 We didn't need the psychologist. 01:18:25.810 --> 01:18:27.660 We needed the date. 01:18:27.935 --> 01:18:32.585 That accompanied every visit to the psychologist where we'd usually, you 01:18:32.585 --> 01:18:37.224 know, daycare arrangements and we'd go out to lunch and we spent time together. 01:18:37.225 --> 01:18:39.844 So what we realized is we didn't need the psychologist. 01:18:40.065 --> 01:18:45.254 We just needed to schedule dates where we, where we'd spend time together and 01:18:45.254 --> 01:18:51.265 we'd go for a walk or go for a meal or, or do something and, and have that chance. 01:18:51.275 --> 01:18:57.115 I mean, people who don't have shift work, um, Uh, challenges. 01:18:57.125 --> 01:19:01.545 I don't think they understand how difficult it is to stay connected with 01:19:01.545 --> 01:19:05.935 a partner who's on shifts and you, and then you're juggling daycare as well. 01:19:06.135 --> 01:19:07.435 I don't think they understand it. 01:19:07.465 --> 01:19:11.425 And more importantly, I don't think they appreciate it and take best advantage 01:19:11.425 --> 01:19:14.045 of it, you know, uh, because that. 01:19:14.440 --> 01:19:18.210 Little bit of time you have for each other every day to just, you 01:19:18.210 --> 01:19:21.240 know, communicate is huge, but that was a lesson out of that. 01:19:21.480 --> 01:19:22.860 We didn't need the psychologist. 01:19:22.900 --> 01:19:23.870 Travis Bader: That's a good lesson. 01:19:23.900 --> 01:19:27.650 You know, it, it reminds me, and I've said this one before, but a 01:19:27.690 --> 01:19:32.045 crocodile Dundee where He, I think he was at a party in New York. 01:19:33.335 --> 01:19:35.785 This person is a psychologist or a psychiatrist. 01:19:35.795 --> 01:19:36.345 What's that? 01:19:36.385 --> 01:19:38.975 Oh, you don't have those in Wackabow Creek. 01:19:39.135 --> 01:19:40.904 You go in, you pay him a bunch of money. 01:19:40.904 --> 01:19:44.475 You talk about your troubles and you see him every week. 01:19:44.595 --> 01:19:46.144 And he's like, you don't have that. 01:19:46.155 --> 01:19:47.995 He said, well, we've got Bruce, the bartender. 01:19:47.995 --> 01:19:48.254 Right. 01:19:48.254 --> 01:19:50.105 You tell him, tell him your problems. 01:19:50.105 --> 01:19:51.845 He tells everybody else, no, we're problem. 01:19:51.845 --> 01:19:52.625 Right. 01:19:52.625 --> 01:19:52.644 So. 01:19:52.805 --> 01:19:57.755 Sometimes that breach of confidentiality could be as terrible as it is in the 01:19:57.755 --> 01:20:01.305 time, the impetus or something that just kind of sheds light on something. 01:20:01.305 --> 01:20:04.664 And it's, huh, you know what, the solution is pretty obvious now. 01:20:05.125 --> 01:20:08.365 Mark Horsley: Well, yeah, we, I mean, and we learned something from that, right. 01:20:08.954 --> 01:20:14.044 But as far as the, uh, uh, you were, I think I took you off topic. 01:20:14.054 --> 01:20:17.334 Cause you were talking about transitioning from being a police 01:20:17.334 --> 01:20:19.314 officer to being an old retired. 01:20:20.270 --> 01:20:21.150 Old retired guy. 01:20:21.160 --> 01:20:22.040 No purpose in life. 01:20:22.050 --> 01:20:23.590 Travis Bader: Who's shooting all over the world. 01:20:23.590 --> 01:20:26.590 Who's got a beautiful Elk in Montana. 01:20:26.590 --> 01:20:29.760 And, um, I'd love to hear that story too. 01:20:29.760 --> 01:20:33.830 I've seen the pictures, but I'd love to hear the, uh, the elk story as well. 01:20:34.209 --> 01:20:34.599 Mark Horsley: Okay. 01:20:34.709 --> 01:20:35.384 Uh, so. 01:20:35.385 --> 01:20:39.415 So, uh, have a, a friend, uh, Gary Crane, he's retired from, 01:20:39.485 --> 01:20:40.865 uh, Portland Police Department. 01:20:40.885 --> 01:20:44.664 He called me up and said, uh, would you like to do an elk hunt in Montana? 01:20:45.355 --> 01:20:46.005 I said, yeah. 01:20:46.404 --> 01:20:50.775 And, and a lot of time people say I'd like to do something someday. 01:20:51.045 --> 01:20:51.245 Yes. 01:20:51.275 --> 01:20:56.695 And, uh, this is one of the lessons learned from me is you, you, some day is 01:20:56.695 --> 01:21:00.794 actually today, my wife would say, when I retire, I want to, I want to do this. 01:21:00.804 --> 01:21:02.235 I want to play the ukulele. 01:21:02.235 --> 01:21:03.485 I want to travel to here. 01:21:03.485 --> 01:21:06.365 And I go, no, no, no, book it now and, and buy it now. 01:21:06.365 --> 01:21:08.014 And cause you don't have time. 01:21:08.565 --> 01:21:10.325 And what Gary says is I have to do it now. 01:21:10.345 --> 01:21:12.695 Cause he says, I'm going to be 77 years old. 01:21:12.710 --> 01:21:13.490 On this hunt. 01:21:14.000 --> 01:21:17.750 So we had to do it well anyway, we, uh, went through the process, put in, 01:21:17.810 --> 01:21:21.950 uh, bought our, uh, hunting licenses in Montana, uh, put in the draw, 01:21:22.010 --> 01:21:24.590 and we both drew, uh, wow bull tags. 01:21:25.000 --> 01:21:32.030 So, um, now we're, we're off on this trip and, um, uh, it was, 01:21:32.090 --> 01:21:37.910 uh, very interesting because we've had all kinds of gun law changes, 01:21:38.270 --> 01:21:39.920 different things that have been done. 01:21:40.555 --> 01:21:46.295 And, uh, uh, so the process before was I needed an ATF 6, uh, to 01:21:46.295 --> 01:21:51.025 cross the border, uh, with two hunting rifles, both 30 odd sixes. 01:21:51.044 --> 01:21:53.105 I got that in 24 hours. 01:21:53.204 --> 01:21:54.584 I submitted electronically. 01:21:54.584 --> 01:21:55.644 It's returned to me. 01:21:56.084 --> 01:22:00.185 Uh, then the next thing I had to find out was, uh, could I bring. 01:22:00.265 --> 01:22:04.645 Uh, if I couldn't, it wasn't going to stop me from doing the trip. 01:22:04.645 --> 01:22:07.485 There's actually ways you can donate it to food banks or I could have 01:22:07.485 --> 01:22:09.385 given it to Gary and his family. 01:22:09.435 --> 01:22:14.334 Uh, uh, but I went from government agency to government agency, 01:22:14.334 --> 01:22:16.165 spent hours and hours and hours. 01:22:16.535 --> 01:22:20.610 And then I finally, uh, Found, uh, and I can't even remember 01:22:20.610 --> 01:22:22.230 the names of all these agencies. 01:22:22.230 --> 01:22:27.040 I finally found somebody that, uh, said I could bring it back and directed me 01:22:27.040 --> 01:22:29.839 to the, the rule book that said I could. 01:22:30.079 --> 01:22:31.020 Travis Bader: Just had to be boned? 01:22:31.050 --> 01:22:31.779 Was that the rules? 01:22:31.810 --> 01:22:32.260 Uh, no, 01:22:32.260 --> 01:22:33.779 Mark Horsley: you can actually bring the carcass back. 01:22:34.010 --> 01:22:37.230 But what I did is I had it, uh, uh, cut, wrapped and frozen 01:22:37.790 --> 01:22:39.010 before I, before I came back. 01:22:39.040 --> 01:22:45.160 But, uh, then there was the process of trying to get, uh, permits from Canada. 01:22:45.490 --> 01:22:52.300 And, uh, so previously your, um, uh, ATT, uh, would allow you to 01:22:52.300 --> 01:22:54.200 take the, your rifles to the border. 01:22:54.200 --> 01:22:55.030 You needed nothing. 01:22:55.720 --> 01:22:56.460 Travis Bader: So your, your PAO. 01:22:58.265 --> 01:22:58.495 Mark Horsley: Yes. 01:22:58.495 --> 01:22:58.965 I'm sorry. 01:22:59.005 --> 01:22:59.425 Just your PAL. 01:22:59.425 --> 01:22:59.795 Yeah. 01:22:59.825 --> 01:23:01.065 Because ATD would be for your handguns. 01:23:01.065 --> 01:23:01.448 Yeah. 01:23:01.448 --> 01:23:02.214 I'm sorry. 01:23:02.215 --> 01:23:05.505 I'm getting my, uh, my, uh, uh, categories mixed up, but you're right. 01:23:05.535 --> 01:23:07.874 It was just your, um, uh, your PAL. 01:23:08.974 --> 01:23:12.554 Got a guy from the Canadian Firearms Center, talked to him and he says, 01:23:12.564 --> 01:23:14.425 that's all you need to get to the border. 01:23:14.795 --> 01:23:16.165 I said, would you send me an email? 01:23:16.350 --> 01:23:18.210 And he did, that was awesome. 01:23:18.510 --> 01:23:23.400 And I'm compiling all of this in a tabbed binder as I, as I'm doing this, 01:23:24.080 --> 01:23:29.000 now I'm dealing with global affairs and we had a little bit of history trying 01:23:29.000 --> 01:23:32.819 to get my permits to go to Sweden last year for the world precision pistol 01:23:32.819 --> 01:23:35.020 championships, which ultimately I got. 01:23:35.600 --> 01:23:41.250 And they said, kept referring me to this section about exporting military weapons. 01:23:41.265 --> 01:23:45.755 Um, uh, calibers, right? 01:23:45.845 --> 01:23:47.605 Like I'm a 30 odd six shooter. 01:23:47.655 --> 01:23:50.455 Uh, and we went around and around in circles. 01:23:50.725 --> 01:23:55.715 Anyway, eventually, um, uh, a friend who's a lawyer got involved 01:23:55.745 --> 01:23:59.255 and educated them and there was a bit of face saving involved. 01:23:59.624 --> 01:24:03.625 And they made me get a general export permit, which the lawyer 01:24:03.625 --> 01:24:05.255 said was absolutely unnecessary. 01:24:05.965 --> 01:24:09.745 I'm going to, like, I just call people up and say, what do I need to do this? 01:24:09.755 --> 01:24:11.615 And I will jump through whatever hoops you got. 01:24:11.635 --> 01:24:15.045 Anyway, lots and lots of hours, which I'm very resentful of. 01:24:15.045 --> 01:24:18.735 If that happened during work time, I could accept that. 01:24:18.735 --> 01:24:19.745 But this is my time. 01:24:19.745 --> 01:24:20.835 I'm retired, right? 01:24:20.835 --> 01:24:24.504 This could be nap time or time for me to wear a cardigan or 01:24:24.515 --> 01:24:26.428 get new slippers or whatever, 01:24:26.428 --> 01:24:27.044 Travis Bader: you 01:24:27.044 --> 01:24:30.774 Mark Horsley: know, so anyway, I had all my stuff in order. 01:24:31.050 --> 01:24:36.320 I arrived at the border, uh, going, uh, south, so I was driving, pick up my 01:24:36.320 --> 01:24:41.409 buddy in Washington State, uh, and then we were driving to Montana, and great 01:24:41.409 --> 01:24:43.109 reception because I was well organized. 01:24:43.150 --> 01:24:46.550 They, uh, checked the serial numbers, through I go, no delays at all. 01:24:47.310 --> 01:24:48.770 Got down to Montana. 01:24:50.410 --> 01:24:51.100 Wow. 01:24:51.440 --> 01:24:51.740 Yeah. 01:24:51.750 --> 01:24:52.900 What a place. 01:24:52.970 --> 01:24:56.270 I've been through Montana on, uh, camping trips with my 01:24:56.270 --> 01:24:58.900 family on, uh, motorcycle trips. 01:24:58.970 --> 01:25:00.050 It's so beautiful. 01:25:00.560 --> 01:25:05.479 And, uh, they have the most wonderful attitude about hunters. 01:25:05.510 --> 01:25:09.830 Hunters are, uh, uh, you know, multi billion dollar industry 01:25:09.840 --> 01:25:13.610 bringing tourists and money, and they're so wonderful to deal with. 01:25:13.610 --> 01:25:16.840 I had a little trouble getting my everything online. 01:25:16.840 --> 01:25:18.720 I got on the phone with this nice lady. 01:25:18.720 --> 01:25:21.720 And it's like, they actually wanted me to come and we're encouraging. 01:25:21.720 --> 01:25:22.260 That's refreshing. 01:25:22.260 --> 01:25:23.040 Oh, it was awesome. 01:25:23.600 --> 01:25:26.660 Anyway, we got down there, totally different type of hunting. 01:25:27.070 --> 01:25:27.380 Okay. 01:25:27.389 --> 01:25:29.200 Because we stayed in a motel. 01:25:29.600 --> 01:25:29.950 Okay. 01:25:29.979 --> 01:25:35.900 And, uh, we had an outfitter, uh, and we had a guide and we had one guide for, 01:25:35.919 --> 01:25:41.990 for two hunters and, uh, but the, they, they said, okay, um, when you come out to 01:25:41.990 --> 01:25:45.739 the truck every morning, uh, you have a chamber drowned in the rifle safety on. 01:25:46.430 --> 01:25:49.160 So, you know, you're in a different country, different rules, nothing 01:25:49.160 --> 01:25:52.330 unsafe about it, but you're walking out of the hotel lobby. 01:25:53.205 --> 01:25:55.885 With your rifle slung over your shoulder, your backpack, your 01:25:55.885 --> 01:25:57.555 food and all that, all that stuff. 01:25:57.575 --> 01:26:00.605 And you walk right by police officers and they don't even blink an eye. 01:26:00.725 --> 01:26:00.865 Yeah. 01:26:00.865 --> 01:26:02.065 It's Montana, right? 01:26:02.074 --> 01:26:02.645 How cool. 01:26:03.045 --> 01:26:03.895 So beautiful. 01:26:03.935 --> 01:26:09.835 Anyway, day one, we get out and, uh, only see one elk, um, and it's, uh, at 01:26:09.835 --> 01:26:13.825 about 1200 meters, uh, but the mule deer. 01:26:14.460 --> 01:26:20.260 The big horns that like, Oh, and the, the scenery and it was spectacular. 01:26:20.690 --> 01:26:27.789 So the, um, the outfitter I had said, I'd really like to try and get my bull early. 01:26:27.790 --> 01:26:32.615 I said, any legal bull, um, Uh, I'm not after a trophy bowl. 01:26:32.615 --> 01:26:34.205 I'd never shot an elk before. 01:26:34.205 --> 01:26:35.635 So I was after any legal bowl. 01:26:35.655 --> 01:26:37.885 My buddy was after more of a trophy bowl. 01:26:38.415 --> 01:26:41.834 And, uh, so he says, well, we got to go where they are. 01:26:41.845 --> 01:26:43.385 There's, this was October. 01:26:43.385 --> 01:26:45.494 He said, there's no real snow pack yet. 01:26:46.285 --> 01:26:49.985 Uh, in the high country had about 12 to 18 inches of snow. 01:26:50.635 --> 01:26:56.765 So we get up at five in the morning on day two, we, uh, drive way up this mountain 01:26:56.805 --> 01:26:59.505 and we started our hunt at 7, 000 feet. 01:26:59.505 --> 01:27:00.804 Travis Bader: Uh, 01:27:00.805 --> 01:27:04.385 Mark Horsley: we had a young guide who was 20 years old, uh, and 01:27:04.405 --> 01:27:09.815 inexperienced and not very familiar with his, uh, his navigation equipment. 01:27:10.495 --> 01:27:11.485 So right away. 01:27:11.705 --> 01:27:15.215 Uh, we got lost and I'll backtrack again, cause I forgot 01:27:15.215 --> 01:27:16.545 an important part of the story. 01:27:17.265 --> 01:27:21.005 I have always hunted with a varmint gun. 01:27:21.185 --> 01:27:23.005 I shoot Tikka varmint. 01:27:23.084 --> 01:27:23.224 Yeah. 01:27:23.255 --> 01:27:26.615 I have what I believe and what I've been told is the only Tikka 01:27:26.615 --> 01:27:30.375 varmint 30 odd six in North America cause I got it out of Finland. 01:27:30.874 --> 01:27:32.605 So it's a 14 pound rifle. 01:27:32.645 --> 01:27:32.845 Yeah. 01:27:32.875 --> 01:27:37.760 And I've always said, If, um, you were worried about a few ounces on your 01:27:37.760 --> 01:27:41.910 rifle, maybe take the 30 pounds that are around your waist off first, right? 01:27:41.950 --> 01:27:46.120 Like, and I've always ridiculed guys and poked fun and all in, all in good fun. 01:27:46.740 --> 01:27:50.550 Day one of that hunt, I'm going, I can't carry this rifle. 01:27:50.730 --> 01:27:51.819 You want to light a rifle. 01:27:51.819 --> 01:27:56.390 I became an old man and it's like I instantly aged anyway. 01:27:57.075 --> 01:28:03.005 So my backup rifle, uh, Tikka T3 light with a three by nine Bushnell, it's really 01:28:03.005 --> 01:28:04.955 what my version of a scout rifle, right? 01:28:05.245 --> 01:28:06.425 That's really what it is. 01:28:06.585 --> 01:28:10.285 So that's what I carried day two, cause I was dying day one. 01:28:10.884 --> 01:28:15.765 Uh, and, uh, uh, anyway, we're climbing, he gets lost and we spent a lot of 01:28:15.765 --> 01:28:17.715 time trying to find the trail head. 01:28:18.095 --> 01:28:21.495 And then we're, um, uh, a whole day. 01:28:21.855 --> 01:28:26.645 Of climbing and we didn't stop for more than five minutes at any time. 01:28:26.645 --> 01:28:28.455 We got a foot, foot and a half of snow. 01:28:28.515 --> 01:28:34.905 Uh, uh, I didn't count how many times I fell because I want to be positive 01:28:35.234 --> 01:28:37.374 and talk about how many times I got up. 01:28:38.385 --> 01:28:38.775 Fair enough. 01:28:38.895 --> 01:28:40.855 In the two days, it was 30. 01:28:41.945 --> 01:28:44.545 So, uh, uh, it was slippery. 01:28:44.575 --> 01:28:48.245 It was, oh, it was, uh, minus 17. 01:28:48.445 --> 01:28:50.295 Uh, it was cold. 01:28:50.725 --> 01:28:53.905 Um, probably underestimated the water that I needed. 01:28:54.225 --> 01:28:57.225 Definitely underestimated the food that I needed to carry. 01:28:57.715 --> 01:29:01.665 Um, and my, my buddy, what a tough guy. 01:29:01.745 --> 01:29:03.345 Uh, he, but he knew. 01:29:03.455 --> 01:29:03.905 77. 01:29:04.125 --> 01:29:08.195 77 years old, but he knew that he couldn't do the entire hunt. 01:29:08.205 --> 01:29:14.195 So he partway through, uh, we agreed to meet at a certain point in the afternoon. 01:29:14.884 --> 01:29:16.705 Anyway, I climbed with this 20 year old. 01:29:17.164 --> 01:29:18.735 We didn't see anything, nothing. 01:29:19.145 --> 01:29:24.374 And comes to four o'clock in the afternoon and I am bagged like I am so bagged, but 01:29:24.375 --> 01:29:30.005 we got a long trek, uh, to get back to where we're going to meet the outfitter. 01:29:30.005 --> 01:29:32.515 Outfitter dropped us at one spot, picking us up at another spot. 01:29:32.515 --> 01:29:34.355 Um, so. 01:29:35.460 --> 01:29:40.190 I'm eating my final Clif Bar, I'm drinking like the last of my 01:29:40.190 --> 01:29:42.270 water, and he says, I got bowls. 01:29:43.160 --> 01:29:43.550 Okay. 01:29:43.600 --> 01:29:43.980 Nice. 01:29:44.590 --> 01:29:53.569 And, uh, there's a, a snow covered rock that I proned on and this unbelievable 01:29:53.599 --> 01:29:56.359 tangle of forest, and then a rise. 01:29:56.780 --> 01:29:58.750 And he says they're over there in the tree line. 01:29:59.520 --> 01:30:04.770 And, uh, uh, I get, I get a look at one that's head on, but it's got to 01:30:04.780 --> 01:30:06.570 have a certain amount of brow time. 01:30:06.570 --> 01:30:08.990 So I need confirmation that it's a legal bull. 01:30:09.580 --> 01:30:11.919 My opportunity misses on that one. 01:30:11.980 --> 01:30:13.289 I got a second bull. 01:30:13.595 --> 01:30:16.425 Who's only got a head sticking out from the tree. 01:30:16.445 --> 01:30:20.825 Now, from my view, it looks like the tree is right here, but the tree could 01:30:20.835 --> 01:30:22.155 be a hundred meters in front of it. 01:30:22.155 --> 01:30:23.375 Right, right. 01:30:23.885 --> 01:30:28.475 So, uh, the, the guy gets on that one, says, yep, he's a legal 01:30:28.484 --> 01:30:30.319 bull, but it's only the head. 01:30:31.310 --> 01:30:33.420 I said, uh, can you arrange it? 01:30:33.430 --> 01:30:35.880 He gives me a range, but I learned a long time ago. 01:30:35.880 --> 01:30:36.220 Don't 01:30:36.230 --> 01:30:36.740 Travis Bader: trust it. 01:30:36.800 --> 01:30:37.700 Mark Horsley: Trust my range. 01:30:37.730 --> 01:30:38.190 Yes. 01:30:38.370 --> 01:30:38.510 Right. 01:30:38.520 --> 01:30:44.010 So I arranged it, uh, and it was, uh, 472 yards. 01:30:44.039 --> 01:30:45.900 Travis Bader: Was it similar to what his range was? 01:30:46.495 --> 01:30:47.585 Mark Horsley: His was closer. 01:30:47.595 --> 01:30:48.555 It would have been off. 01:30:48.615 --> 01:30:49.085 Travis Bader: Okay. 01:30:49.115 --> 01:30:50.365 Mark Horsley: Yeah, it would have been off. 01:30:50.375 --> 01:30:53.015 So what he did is bounced off a tree closer. 01:30:53.065 --> 01:30:53.345 Mm. 01:30:53.365 --> 01:30:56.714 And what you can do is bounce off a rock farther or a tree closer. 01:30:56.714 --> 01:30:57.995 So I want to do my own range. 01:30:58.384 --> 01:31:01.295 Anyway, bull comes, gives me a shoulder. 01:31:03.485 --> 01:31:07.155 And I'm saying, I'm going to take him if I get a shot, we're talking 01:31:07.165 --> 01:31:11.785 back and forth and I'm really solid and I got to qualify this. 01:31:11.795 --> 01:31:16.075 This is my light rifle, but I have trained to 600 meters with it. 01:31:16.394 --> 01:31:21.690 I knew what it was I'm watching, you know, all of these things, uh, Uh, you don't 01:31:21.690 --> 01:31:27.310 have a kestrel, you don't, you know, all this fancy stuff that guys do, this is 01:31:27.320 --> 01:31:30.600 experience and sense and reading the wind. 01:31:30.600 --> 01:31:33.959 Of course, you only have the wind where you are, not the wind three quarters the 01:31:33.959 --> 01:31:35.780 way to target all these other challenges. 01:31:36.320 --> 01:31:40.630 Bull steps forward a little farther and, and I press the 01:31:40.630 --> 01:31:43.520 trigger and the bull disappears. 01:31:44.180 --> 01:31:47.220 And, uh, the guide says, I think you missed. 01:31:47.740 --> 01:31:49.380 And I said, I did not miss. 01:31:50.139 --> 01:31:51.610 I mean, a bull's a big target. 01:31:51.660 --> 01:31:57.260 If you're used to shooting four inches at 800 meters, a bull's a big target. 01:31:57.520 --> 01:32:00.940 And, um, so I said, there's no way I missed. 01:32:01.280 --> 01:32:05.599 And, and Gary said, he's just not used to a shooter like you. 01:32:05.940 --> 01:32:06.180 Right. 01:32:06.200 --> 01:32:08.780 Like, cause, and the kid was fantastic. 01:32:08.780 --> 01:32:09.640 His name's Jason. 01:32:10.350 --> 01:32:13.020 He had some horror stories about, you know, some of the ill 01:32:13.020 --> 01:32:14.820 preparedness of people getting there. 01:32:14.839 --> 01:32:15.109 Sure. 01:32:15.110 --> 01:32:20.779 Well, we got to ethically go, whether I missed or I didn't miss. 01:32:20.779 --> 01:32:21.310 You gotta go check it. 01:32:21.489 --> 01:32:22.799 You gotta go check it. 01:32:23.100 --> 01:32:28.280 Well, this was, uh, as tired as I was, the worst CrossFit race. 01:32:29.040 --> 01:32:33.940 Exercise workout you've ever seen under logs, over logs, slip and fall, 01:32:33.940 --> 01:32:36.540 get up, you know, uh, and down we go. 01:32:36.550 --> 01:32:43.350 It took 45 minutes to cover this 472 yards to where the bull was shot. 01:32:44.090 --> 01:32:51.260 Get there, there's blood and, um, go up over the next rise and there he is bedded. 01:32:51.810 --> 01:32:58.329 And, uh, so, uh, he, this is my respect for this prehistoric beast. 01:32:58.605 --> 01:33:00.365 Um, they're amazing. 01:33:00.645 --> 01:33:02.175 He got up out of his bed. 01:33:02.905 --> 01:33:06.535 Now, later when we field dress, he was lung shot, he 01:33:06.535 --> 01:33:08.374 was fatally, fatally wounded. 01:33:08.375 --> 01:33:09.235 It was a perfect hit. 01:33:09.655 --> 01:33:14.044 It's just an absolute perfect through the, through the, uh, rib cage lung shot. 01:33:14.755 --> 01:33:19.455 He got up and he started climbing the next ridge and Jason says, take them. 01:33:19.455 --> 01:33:20.525 And I said, range? 01:33:20.535 --> 01:33:21.485 He said 150. 01:33:21.615 --> 01:33:24.695 I knew it was zero, but you know, you're questioning yourself. 01:33:25.135 --> 01:33:28.125 Second shot, uh, uh, hits him. 01:33:28.860 --> 01:33:33.440 I, uh, racked the bolt, Jason says, wait, I don't see anything. 01:33:34.100 --> 01:33:35.660 I, he's still climbing. 01:33:35.700 --> 01:33:41.120 And then he starts to waver, you know, he starts to, and down he goes and slides 01:33:41.120 --> 01:33:43.300 down and get stopped on a, on a tree. 01:33:43.550 --> 01:33:45.080 This is tough, tough country. 01:33:45.589 --> 01:33:48.789 Well, so when we field dressed them, second shot was a heart shot. 01:33:49.069 --> 01:33:49.389 Okay. 01:33:49.389 --> 01:33:50.839 So they're both fatal. 01:33:50.859 --> 01:33:51.239 Good shots. 01:33:51.279 --> 01:33:51.869 They were both. 01:33:52.895 --> 01:33:58.655 And, uh, so Jay, Jason said, is it okay if I film you approaching the animal? 01:33:58.655 --> 01:33:59.205 I said, yeah. 01:33:59.225 --> 01:34:04.305 He says, you don't seem, you know, we shook hands, we did the high five and 01:34:04.475 --> 01:34:06.284 he says, you don't seem overly excited. 01:34:06.285 --> 01:34:09.295 I said, well, A, I'm really tired. 01:34:10.945 --> 01:34:13.045 And B, you can't shoot like that. 01:34:13.105 --> 01:34:14.005 If you're all excited. 01:34:14.065 --> 01:34:14.705 That's right. 01:34:14.835 --> 01:34:15.165 Exactly. 01:34:15.505 --> 01:34:16.865 So, uh, anyway. 01:34:17.025 --> 01:34:17.955 This is a trained thing. 01:34:17.995 --> 01:34:25.050 This is So, so Gary had stayed behind from where we shot, but he heard the kill shot 01:34:25.260 --> 01:34:31.130 and he came down to his credit, crawling through all that stuff at 77 years of age. 01:34:31.340 --> 01:34:33.170 He got there after we'd field dressed. 01:34:33.180 --> 01:34:37.780 So normally they do, uh, a, uh, a gutless dressing. 01:34:37.820 --> 01:34:38.360 I was going to ask. 01:34:38.379 --> 01:34:38.929 I don't know. 01:34:38.999 --> 01:34:40.039 I don't, I've never done it. 01:34:40.399 --> 01:34:45.495 Um, but because it was late in the day, We had to feel dressed to cool it out 01:34:45.535 --> 01:34:47.245 and then do the recovery the next day. 01:34:47.305 --> 01:34:47.555 Right. 01:34:47.565 --> 01:34:52.494 So, um, anyway, uh, Gary got down and we were able to get a great picture of 01:34:52.494 --> 01:34:58.595 Gary and I, one with the guide and my brother, uh, uh, John, who's a big hunter. 01:34:58.605 --> 01:35:01.114 He says, you know, how come Gary wasn't smiling? 01:35:01.624 --> 01:35:03.415 Man, we were just so tired. 01:35:03.435 --> 01:35:13.685 Well, anyway, we had, uh, a trip back to where I'd fired from and I, uh, Uh, 01:35:13.695 --> 01:35:16.225 slipped, fell, twisted, and tore my ACL. 01:35:16.695 --> 01:35:21.355 And, uh, so I'm up there, it's, uh, 10 below and getting 01:35:21.355 --> 01:35:22.975 colder as we're losing light. 01:35:23.525 --> 01:35:25.605 Uh, it was really great. 01:35:25.605 --> 01:35:27.454 We got back to where we fired from. 01:35:27.475 --> 01:35:29.825 We're getting a range for the walk down. 01:35:29.864 --> 01:35:32.695 I had a spare set of, uh, gloves. 01:35:33.555 --> 01:35:36.385 Gary and Jason didn't, they both got frostbite. 01:35:36.615 --> 01:35:37.255 Oh, really? 01:35:37.285 --> 01:35:41.775 And as soon as the sun dropped, uh, the wolves went off and I was so hungry. 01:35:41.775 --> 01:35:42.345 I was thinking. 01:35:42.490 --> 01:35:43.290 Oh, come in. 01:35:43.310 --> 01:35:45.080 Cause I'm going to, I'm going to shoot you in each. 01:35:45.110 --> 01:35:51.560 I was like, I, you know, anyway, uh, so what they call a trail in Montana. 01:35:51.630 --> 01:35:56.070 And, and I, I really felt like I was a city slicker, uh, having only 01:35:56.070 --> 01:36:00.880 hunted everywhere in British Columbia, because there was no trails at all. 01:36:00.970 --> 01:36:07.670 Uh, and, and Jason, if it Gary's navigation equipment, I don't 01:36:07.670 --> 01:36:11.400 think we would've got back to the truck four and a half hours. 01:36:11.540 --> 01:36:12.139 Oh man. 01:36:12.535 --> 01:36:17.885 After we got back to the shoot location to get to the guide in the truck. 01:36:17.915 --> 01:36:22.704 Now, in fairness, we were going really slow cause, uh, I had an injury and, 01:36:23.065 --> 01:36:25.094 and we'd both fallen so many times. 01:36:25.094 --> 01:36:30.284 So, uh, but the, um, the outfitter said that he sent guys hunting up 01:36:30.285 --> 01:36:33.485 the trail, those wimps, 300 meters. 01:36:33.505 --> 01:36:37.455 Cause we did, we didn't get any footprints until we were 300 meters from the truck. 01:36:37.455 --> 01:36:40.125 So we got back to the truck at 10 30 at night. 01:36:40.785 --> 01:36:42.145 And then we went back to. 01:36:42.905 --> 01:36:47.575 Uh, the city, the only thing open for food was the Taco Bell and, and, 01:36:48.305 --> 01:36:50.615 and Gary says, I'm too tired to eat. 01:36:51.045 --> 01:36:53.445 I said, look, man, after that, you got to put some calories. 01:36:53.485 --> 01:36:55.004 So I went out and got some burritos. 01:36:55.655 --> 01:36:56.754 Oh my God. 01:36:56.754 --> 01:36:59.375 I'm getting, I'm doing a plug for Taco Bell here. 01:36:59.935 --> 01:37:01.665 Like the truth was. 01:37:01.750 --> 01:37:05.980 A turd wrapped in last week's underwear would have gone down good at that time. 01:37:05.990 --> 01:37:10.210 But no, we had, uh, so we got a bag of tacos and ate those. 01:37:10.250 --> 01:37:13.850 And to Gary's credit, he got up and went hunting the next morning. 01:37:13.940 --> 01:37:15.820 Like, uh, what a tough guy. 01:37:16.799 --> 01:37:18.919 Travis Bader: And did the wolves get to the elk or were 01:37:18.919 --> 01:37:19.739 you able to retrieve the meat? 01:37:19.759 --> 01:37:20.149 So, 01:37:20.249 --> 01:37:20.639 Mark Horsley: okay. 01:37:20.640 --> 01:37:21.780 So here's a great story. 01:37:21.780 --> 01:37:23.670 I got, I now I'm bagged. 01:37:23.670 --> 01:37:25.260 I feel old. 01:37:25.590 --> 01:37:29.610 Uh, first time in my life, uh, I got this knee injury. 01:37:29.970 --> 01:37:33.390 And, uh, you know, the outfitter, the deal with the outfitter 01:37:33.430 --> 01:37:34.850 is they do the recovery. 01:37:35.140 --> 01:37:35.730 Oh, really? 01:37:35.870 --> 01:37:40.250 So, um, now I could have gone, I could have participated, and they'll do it on 01:37:40.250 --> 01:37:42.589 horseback, ATV, whatever they can do. 01:37:42.650 --> 01:37:44.610 But this is what they did. 01:37:45.205 --> 01:37:50.685 They hired, uh, uh, the, the guide was, uh, uh, two times state wrestling 01:37:50.685 --> 01:37:55.435 champion and, and two of his buddies, not one of these guys made, weighed 01:37:55.435 --> 01:38:00.334 more than a buck 50 and they went up and brought this elk off that mountain. 01:38:00.334 --> 01:38:01.144 Good for them. 01:38:01.214 --> 01:38:02.435 Oh man, tough. 01:38:02.595 --> 01:38:06.035 Tough kids, like I have nothing but admiration for them. 01:38:06.345 --> 01:38:10.465 But, you know, uh, so I got the, uh, the elk back. 01:38:10.465 --> 01:38:15.025 I got it in, I got it cut wrapped and frozen, uh, and, uh, for transport. 01:38:15.134 --> 01:38:16.035 It was fantastic. 01:38:16.155 --> 01:38:16.555 Travis Bader: Beauty. 01:38:16.615 --> 01:38:20.499 Well, I'm glad I got that story because I was looking at those pictures and I. 01:38:20.570 --> 01:38:23.870 Was, uh, was keen to hear this story, but wanted to save it for this. 01:38:23.950 --> 01:38:26.320 Mark Horsley: I know you turned off the recorder a long time ago. 01:38:26.620 --> 01:38:27.490 I know you did. 01:38:27.490 --> 01:38:29.779 Cause I get pretty pumped when we talk about hunting. 01:38:29.900 --> 01:38:35.229 I got back and I knew I needed to upgrade the scope on this light rifle, right? 01:38:35.240 --> 01:38:37.490 Cause it was an old Bushnell three by nine. 01:38:37.549 --> 01:38:39.140 Now it worked and I knew how it worked. 01:38:39.170 --> 01:38:43.290 It had hold over reticles and so forth, but I shopped around and, 01:38:43.290 --> 01:38:47.405 uh, uh, you know, Um, Vortex had sponsored the Precision Pistol 01:38:47.405 --> 01:38:51.715 Championship, uh, for three years, uh, for the, our national championship. 01:38:52.134 --> 01:38:55.884 And I, so I contacted Vortex and said, Hey, can you help me out with, 01:38:56.225 --> 01:38:57.995 uh, I'd like to upgrade this scope. 01:38:57.995 --> 01:39:02.335 And I sent them a picture, told them the story, uh, and they sent me a scope and 01:39:02.344 --> 01:39:04.354 a bunch of swag, and it was really nice. 01:39:04.355 --> 01:39:05.355 And, but. 01:39:05.465 --> 01:39:09.975 The, uh, uh, Ken, the marketing guy forwarded this to one of the executive 01:39:09.975 --> 01:39:12.925 officers in the, um, in Vortex Canada. 01:39:13.145 --> 01:39:17.355 And I got this lovely email from him saying, uh, I've 01:39:17.355 --> 01:39:19.105 never seen such a big buck. 01:39:20.855 --> 01:39:24.661 Now I can relate to this because he's probably my age and somebody probably 01:39:24.661 --> 01:39:26.754 showed it to him on their phone. 01:39:26.754 --> 01:39:28.335 So the picture's really small. 01:39:28.365 --> 01:39:31.575 And, uh, it's just, it's always been the standing joke. 01:39:31.575 --> 01:39:32.835 Whenever you see a giant buck. 01:39:32.850 --> 01:39:33.580 That gets away. 01:39:33.580 --> 01:39:35.670 You say, I thought it was an elk when I first saw it. 01:39:35.940 --> 01:39:40.240 So yeah, he believes it was a buck and I'm not telling him any different. 01:39:40.290 --> 01:39:40.550 Good. 01:39:40.550 --> 01:39:41.900 He's keeping his mouth shut and done. 01:39:41.949 --> 01:39:43.189 That was a hell of a buck. 01:39:45.340 --> 01:39:45.739 Travis Bader: I love it. 01:39:46.180 --> 01:39:48.220 Well, is there anything else we should be chatting about 01:39:48.220 --> 01:39:49.480 before we wrap things up here? 01:39:50.300 --> 01:39:51.220 Always, but 01:39:51.570 --> 01:39:52.130 Mark Horsley: not today. 01:39:53.320 --> 01:39:56.660 Travis Bader: Mark, thank you so much for coming back on the Silvercore podcast. 01:39:56.660 --> 01:39:58.060 I always enjoy chatting with you. 01:39:58.260 --> 01:39:58.890 Mark Horsley: My pleasure. 01:39:58.910 --> 01:40:02.659 Very few people want to listen to old retired guys, so I appreciate it.