Adam Hatcher: Hey there.
Welcome to the 21 Clear Podcast where we talk about anything to help you
chaos proof your family business.
I'm your host, Adam Hatcher, the founder of 21 Clear, and today is part two of our
interview with Melissa Mitchell, Blitch.
Melissa wrote the book in the Company of Family, how to Thrive
when Business is Personal.
And our last episode, Melissa, introduced a concept.
Called boundaries.
What is this idea of boundaries?
How does it relate to family businesses?
This is an idea I wish had been explained to me far earlier in my
family journey, family business journey than I had it in this episode.
There was one idea in Melissa's book that I wanted to get into with her.
She has several principles of boundaries in a family business,
and one of them was flexibility.
So we're going to explain what flexibility in a family business is, and we talked
about that a bit in the last episode.
So we're gonna revisit it and then we're gonna do three things.
Three things for you to think about, whether it's advice or stories.
Counsel, three things for you to think about as it relates to
flexibility in your family company.
I hope you enjoy the second, sit down with Melissa.
Melissa, welcome back to the 21 Clear Podcast.
Uh, here we go again.
Melissa Mitchell-Blitch: Thanks, Adam.
Let's go.
Adam Hatcher: So we promised listeners in the last episode we are gonna
talk about a topic that when I have worked with families, it doesn't
take long for this one to come up.
So I spent 13 years in my family company.
I was the general counsel, I was the head of human resources corporate strategy.
What you hear in those rules, every one of them is responsible for rules, policies,
which in the last episode we talked about this idea of boundaries, differentiation
between one thing and another.
Both to let good in and keep bad things out.
Why do you have a vacation policy?
That's a boundary.
How many days do you have to be at work during the year?
And what are the rules when you want to take a day off?
And you talk in your book, which is in the Company of Family,
about this idea of companies.
Have rules and family companies need to understand the concept of
flexibility 'cause it's inevitable.
Will you explain this idea of flexibility for the audience?
Melissa Mitchell-Blitch: Mm-hmm.
We spoke in the last episode about how boundaries are fair, firm,
and friendly and flexible, and that there's, that, that tension.
It's a both end.
Sometimes they're firm, sometimes they're flexible.
There are times where things happened that we didn't anticipate,
couldn't have predicted.
Circumstances did change, and so as clear as policies, procedures, rules,
as you were just referring to may be sometimes something may happen.
We're like, oh, that if we actually, if we apply that rule, if we follow that rule,
that policy, it will create unintended negative consequences that we don't want.
And so it can be wise to be able to flex at times, but to do so very thoughtfully.
Because in the previous episode, we talked about a family who
created a, um, employment policy and then a month later broke it.
We create those policies and rules because we think they're gonna
promote good and protect against bad.
Yes, things can happen that we didn't anticipate, and so it can make sense
to flex for a situation or to even change the boundary, but to do so
thoughtfully and, and honestly as opposed to hopefully out of fear.
I shared an example, uh, of a family that was afraid of hurting
a, a cousin's feelings, um, afraid of him struggling, you know,
financially after he was laid off.
So they hired him, you know, hopefully to do so in a way that continues to promote
good and protect, protect against the bad, and that takes thought and reflection
Adam Hatcher: So.
Melissa Mitchell-Blitch: honesty.
Adam Hatcher: Yeah.
Which is conversation like it's talking about.
Alright, so let's do we.
Alright, so the idea of flexibility.
If you've worked with your family, you get this, there are rules, there are
times you're going to bend around them.
Oh.
And if anyone thinks that they don't, when you have a family meeting, do you
take, do you charge PTO to the family members who work in the company when they
go to, to one of the family meetings?
That's not a company meeting, that's a family member meeting.
A family owner meeting.
You talk about distinct things, that's an example of flexibility.
Alright, so what Melissa, uh, what you, what you and I are gonna do, we're gonna
give families three things to think about.
Three things to think about with flexibility.
This might be advice, this might just be interesting thoughts.
And so Melissa's gonna take the first one.
I'm gonna take the second one, and then Melissa will close us with the third one.
So these are three ideas, concepts, thoughts about when you work
with your family and you have rules and you have guidance.
Three things to know about flexibility.
Melissa, what's your first one?
Melissa Mitchell-Blitch: Mm-hmm.
I already alluded to this, I think without using the actual
word, and that is consequences.
What might unintended consequences be?
And And consequences.
You know, consequences can be favorable, they can be negative, they can be
neutral, they can be a mix of things.
But if we flex on this rule, this policy, this previous decision that
we made, what might be a natural.
Unintended undesired consequence, negative consequence that could come
to this individual to, you know, me as the leader if that's, you know, if I'm
the sole person making that to us as a company, just to really think it through
and to think it through not only short term of, with this specific decision
of to flex or not, but longer term such as, you know, like with this family
that I spoke about last time, who broke flexed their, um, employment policy.
What message does that send about other policies?
Oh, they're not gonna stand firm on it.
Maybe What light and doubt may that bring to, again, that policy?
Oh, well, if they're firm with, you know, like the other, another
cousin who doesn't meet the criteria.
If they say no to, to him or her, you know what's, what's that about?
It can just create lots of doubt about the integrity behind the decision.
It can create doubt about other boundaries, policies to know whether
they're gonna be firm or flexible.
So considering the consequences that may result short-term,
long-term personal enterprise level, how could this work for us?
How could this work against us if we flex?
Adam Hatcher: I think the idea of consequences matters so much because
the way you work together and own the company together is family
is an inner family business, and then you have a company around it.
If you turn around and sell your company, the company's still there.
You know, if Chick-fil-A sold, we could all still go get chicken sandwiches.
It's the way the Kathy's work in and own the company together.
That would be missing.
The heart of the company is out of the center of it and
there's something new put in.
And flexibility matters because there's a company around you that you're responsible
to as family when you work in the company.
Um, and this idea of consequences, I imagine you think, well, not just what
is the consequence to me or maybe to my sister who works with me, but what's the
downstream consequence to the company?
Are there any consequences that may flow out to the clients?
Alright, I'm gonna tell you an embarrassing story 'cause you
saying consequences brought this up and this was ignorant, Adam.
I'd like to say I was 28, 29 years old, but I should have known better.
So, and, and I didn't get what you just said.
The idea of consequences.
The family company, my family's company, a staffing and recruiting business has.
A monthly expense report process.
And if you are missing a receipt, then you fill out a lost receipt report.
Well, those lost receipt reports, they were supposed to
be, uh, used very sparingly.
People keep up with their receipts.
I'm kind of fly by the seat of my pants sometimes low detail.
And I made them almost a standard operating procedure.
I was the only person in the company that had a company card that was had.
I was on the, I was the top.
I had to be the top user of the lost receipts.
And I remember the day my father called me, 'cause you have to send
your expense report to your boss.
And I reported to my dad.
And so I'll, I'll tell you how you can feel the ending coming.
And then I'm curious, like, let's tease this idea of consequences out,
like my father calls me, he goes, Hey.
Okay.
the fourth month in a row.
You've had more lost receipts than receipts.
You're the only person in the company like that.
Let me tell you this, the next three, the next three you turn in like that,
I'm taking 'em outta your, I'm taking the amount outta your paycheck.
Like, oh, like message received.
Follow, follow.
The, there is, uh, there's no flexibility to go more into lost receipts.
But what I didn't realize in that phone call, and I'm sure you can hear
like help think about me back then, 28, 29, if you and I had known each
other, you have said, Adam, have you thought about the consequences of this?
Like how would you have walked me through that?
Melissa Mitchell-Blitch: well, I just wanna say that consequences
are wonderful teachers.
Adam Hatcher: Right.
Melissa Mitchell-Blitch: You know, if I, if I do something and again,
outcome, I like, I'll do it again.
So Adam says, Hey, lost receipt, no big deal.
Fill out a form, blah, blah, blah.
I'll do it again.
And he did it again for four months, and then you get a different consequence.
You got a consequence.
You didn't want a firm call from dad saying, next time
it's coming outta your pocket.
And so it taught you or gave you an opportunity to learn to become
more responsible with your receipts.
If I want to be reimbursed, I have a re and avoid this consequence of it coming
out of my pocket, I have a responsibility to keep up with those receipts.
It was a wonderful teacher for you that invited you to stretch
and grow so that you could avoid consequences you didn't want.
Adam Hatcher: and what I didn't think of as well, because again,
this, this, at the time I didn't understand this, that I'm in a family
business working inside a company.
I didn't think about the downstream effect, like, so the finance
department would see this, well, they might wonder why.
I mean, they noticed.
Well, why does he get to do that?
Um, are
there other rules he doesn't have to follow?
I mean, I thought about, uh, my brother and I worked together for
about a decade in the family company.
So what if I keep doing this and my brother finds out, but then there's
some flexibility my brother wants and my dad puts, put the hammer down on him.
Well, now you're treating your sons a different way.
Like, I didn't think that when I unilaterally changed a rule, I,
I didn't know I was doing that.
But when I unilaterally took flexibility, when I unilaterally
changed a rule that there were consequences even, even beyond me.
Melissa Mitchell-Blitch: Absolutely.
Adam Hatcher: all right, so that, so number one, think about consequences.
It's thing number one to think about if you're working with your
family company and you're wrestling with this idea of flexibility.
Alright?
So I'll give you a second one.
Um, find a low stakes one to work on
Melissa Mitchell-Blitch: Hmm.
Adam Hatcher: when you have this inner family business.
It needs its own attention.
So the company has quarterly strategy meetings.
It has a leadership team.
They meet, it's got budget meetings.
Well, your inner family business, you run that the way you work
in and own the company together.
Family meetings.
Now who comes to that?
Is it just the family owners?
Family members who work in the company and the owners?
Is it some other family members, advisors, families do that
different ways, but that's where you work on how do we hire family?
How do we work together?
How do we leave the company?
How do we make ownership decisions?
Do we reinvest, reinvest profits, or do we do distributions?
It's where you work on those issues and in there, if you're going to make an
exception in your company for family, I would go find some low stakes ones.
Maybe not an expense report, rebellion.
I don't think anyone would've reasonably seen that one, but take a
low stakes one and put it on the table.
Talk about it.
A popular thing to do in family companies if is pay dues or
membership for family members, right?
So imagine that the founders of a, of a two generation family company want to pay
for a local social club or country club for their two daughters and their son.
You could just unilaterally do that or sit down and have a family meeting to talk
about it and say the, the conversation may sound something like, look.
When your father and I started this company, we hardly had enough
money to take care of any of us.
Over time, the business has been successful, it's supported, afforded
us new perks, and one of those is joining the local country club.
As we look back, that gave us a place to network that also gave us
a place to host employee and client events that felt really special.
We wished we'd had that when we started.
We would like to give that to you all as well.
And so we'll pay whatever the upfront fee is, we'll pay that for you, or the company
will pay that, uh, however you do that.
And then if you work in the company, we'll, we'll cover
your monthly dues as well.
Like that is for the people who work in the company.
My bet is that that's not a perk that is offered to all
the employees of the company.
It may not even be offered to the executives.
And so part of the flexibility in that is, that's a, you're
flexing on behalf of the family.
For a, for an overarching reason.
But why I would love to see families workshop that versus
send it, send it in an email,
is that it gives people a chance to, that's a low stakes conversation.
Okay.
Like, that's, that's not the decision to go buy a, do a large acquisition that
may strain cash flow for a couple years.
Like that's a big decision.
This is, that's a pretty low stakes decision that would let you then practice
bantering the topic with each other.
You know, someone says, Hey, thanks mom and dad, or tell me more about
what it was like to start the company.
Or maybe I've never cared about clubs like that.
Can we use that
money for something else?
Whatever the con, wherever the conversation goes, you're practicing
working in and owning the company together on a low stakes flexibility issue.
So that would be my encouragement.
Find a couple of these low stakes issues.
When you have your family meetings, talk about 'em.
Melissa Mitchell-Blitch: Yes.
If we want to improve our physical health, we typically start small.
You know, you start with the lightweights, you do rips, you build up, you walk
before you jog, before you run.
And the invisible, you know, relational dynamics, that is often a wise approach
to take, to start small and grow.
And there's so much value just in sitting down and having that conversation,
sharing your thinking, sharing how it's aligned, the values that it's aligned
with, the purpose for this decision.
And being open again to hearing those voices that say, wonderful, thank you dad.
Or that voice that says, you know, I hear your heart, your desire for it
to, to be a benefit and a blessing for me, but I actually hate going there.
You know, might you be open to something else?
I hear the desire behind that.
Might it flex in another way?
What about doing this in instead?
So much value simply to having conversations as, as a family.
Adam Hatcher: And the undercurrent there is, it goes a little unsaid is if you
want to, if you want to, nobody just takes flexibility in, in a family company.
You don't just take it for yourself.
We talk about it.
We even talked about the silly issues and, and the, to use your point, number
one, the consequence of not doing that, I then people don't know either.
They don't know when the rule applies or not, or they just start doing what
they want until someone says something.
And how does that impact the business?
A friend of mine worked in a family company and they're, their home
office was located in a place that, in the last couple years went through
a natural disaster and as they were recovering from the natural disaster,
they all came to work and they.
Could not get on the internet.
And so the head of it went up on the roof to check on the starlink
satellite and it was gone.
One of the family owners who worked in the company that had no real rules about
when you get to be flexible or not, well, the internet was out at their lake
house, and so they took the company, starlink, drove it to their Lakehouse and
knocked the company off of the internet.
And in part it sounds silly and you're like, how dare someone do that?
if you don't know how you ask for flexibility and just feel that you can
take it over years, this just snowballs.
Melissa Mitchell-Blitch: Yeah, well, flexibility can be wise, and
flexibility can be destructive.
That's why thinking through the consequences, short term, long
term, and broadly are important.
Flexibility, overdone creates an attitude, a perception of entitlement.
I'm exempt from responsibility.
I can do whatever I want.
I don't even think about what, you know, the impact on others could be.
That is, you know, kinda like the end game of, of flexibility gone awry.
Um, not kept in check.
Not being the exception, but being the rule that we flex you will
cultivate behaviors, attitude, expectation of entitlement.
Adam Hatcher: What's the danger of that?
Or maybe better yet, in working with families, when you have seen that,
what does then, Ooh, I can't believe you dropped the entitlement word.
Melissa.
Let's do it.
What does give, if someone goes entitlement, I don't know what that means.
Let's take a quick, we, we'll come back.
Melissa's third point to know about flexibility, but we're
gonna take a quick deviation here.
Explain entitlement for someone who's curious, what that means in this context.
Melissa Mitchell-Blitch: Well, I can actually give you a twofer and answer that
question, which will tie back into 0.3
that I wanted to share with your, your listeners.
I borrowed from John Townsend, um, a working definition of entitlement,
ex feeling exempt from responsibility and deserving of special treatment.
So feeling exempt from responsibility.
Doesn't matter what the consequences are, they're not gonna follow me.
Um, I deserve special treatment.
That's describes entitlement in a nutshell.
And the antidote to that is allowing consequences to fall
on the responsible party.
You know, entitlement does not happen in a vacuum.
Someone cannot behave.
They can wanna be entitled, but if there's not someone there to reinforce
that and to indulge that, they can't actually behave in a way because someone
has to pick up the responsibility.
And so a wonderful antidote, um, and going back to our previous
stream of conversation is to get really clear on responsibility.
Adam Hatcher: Hmm.
Melissa Mitchell-Blitch: the word again tells us so much response,
ability, our ability to respond.
What are my abilities to respond?
I can think, I can feel, I can act, I can speak.
Those are my responsibilities.
I can't speak for you, Adam.
I can't think for you.
I can't feel for you.
I can't behave for you.
So I am not response able for you.
I'm only response able for me, and I'm meant to experience
the consequences of my choices.
Those are good.
Sometimes those are bad sometimes.
And since we are in a relationship and I care about you, I want
to be responsive to you.
If I make a decision that I know you're not gonna, like, I want to be responsive
to you and do so in a way that's friendly, fair, and friendly, that I care about
the impact it's gonna have on you.
But I don't take personal responsibility for it.
If we bring back in the example of the family who busted their own employment
policy in very short order, you know, they were taking responsibility for
the, the cousin needed, wanted a job.
Needed, wanted income for his family.
Whose responsibility is that?
It's his, it's not the companies, it's not the families.
Do they love him?
Care about him?
Yes.
And what is the responsibility of the business, the business.
Responsibility to shareholders, you know, to, to stay in business
and continue to produce an income.
How are you gonna do that if you hire every family member that wants
to work there, even if the business does not have a need for them.
So, letting responsibility be taken by who it belongs to.
And we could be responsive.
They could be responsive to that cousin.
They care and wanna support him in other ways, to connect with people,
to get a job, to make ends meet in the meantime, if that's, uh, a need.
But they took on responsibility for him having employment and compensation
that didn't belong to them.
They reaped the consequences and through that, potentially robbed him of, you
know, some, we learn and we stretch.
We learn when we're uncomfortable.
We, we learn that we can do hard things by doing hard things.
And so maybe robbing him of opportunities to grow through challenge.
By taking that responsibility on for him.
Adam Hatcher: And I think about one of the areas where people get.
Wrestle when you work with the family, with your own family, and you wrestle
with responsibility versus entitlement.
One of the things I have noticed is when you have, you don't just have a
single shareholder, maybe your, your CEO uncle is the only shareholder, for
example, but when you have ownership and minority ownership distributed in
the company, there's, you can see it swing to both ends of the pendulum.
You can see people who believe, well, because I own 2%, 5%, 15%, well,
it's, it's less than, less than 50.
Uh, because I own a minority stake, I am entitled to behave
as the controlling shareholder.
I'm not follow
the rule, whatever it may be.
Like I've seen that end.
Because there has not been a conversation.
What does, when you work in the company as a minority
shareholder, what does that mean?
But I've also seen it swing to the other end where people feel overly
responsible and it's understandable.
Oh my goodness, I might be in a staff level position, but I'm also
an owner, so I feel responsible for these hundred, 200, 1500 people.
And they feel this crushing responsibility that really isn't theirs.
But you feel it because there's, because there is ownership.
And that to me is one of like, tip number two, go find something, some
small, flexible discussion to have because the discussion about do we
hire my cousin when he really needs it?
Or let him learn to navigate an uncertain employment environment, or,
or am I more responsible or not because I'm an owner working in the business?
And what does that mean or not mean?
Go find the easy ones to talk about.
'cause those are, those are important, but those are the heavy ones.
Melissa Mitchell-Blitch: Mm-hmm.
And even thinking through that decision with those different
hats on, alright, with my owner hat on, what's my responsibility?
What's my opportunity as a family member?
You know, what's my responsibility thinking through as an employee?
You know, what are my, what's my responsibility here?
That's where it gets so complex in family enterprise.
'cause you got multiple hats on
Adam Hatcher: Mm-hmm.
Melissa Mitchell-Blitch: through it from each of them to, to
view it from big picture.
Adam Hatcher: I remember talk, uh, I got a chance to talk
with a founder who they had a.
Family company that was a chain.
And his three sons and his daughters were all, he had given shares
of the company to all of them.
And what, what's the consequence of not talking about this?
And it was just a casual conversation one day.
And he just kind of looked up and he said, you know, Adam, what?
What frustrates me?
He said, my sons, my daughter.
None of them go to visit our different locations.
I really wish they did.
I mean, gracious, I gave them ownership in this company.
Why don't they go?
And as we talked, I realized he'd never told him that.
And I totally understood his perspective.
I gave you this.
I mean, just naturally, right?
You would think osmosis would tell you that I expect this of you.
And like rational people, if they're owners of something, will go, Anna, maybe.
But it was an unspoken expectation.
An
unspoken responsibility.
And I thought, boy, how it, well, I knew how he felt.
It was frustrating for him.
And disappointing.
But then how would it have felt for them if they knew their dad was disappointed in
them for something unspoken between them?
And that's an example of why it's so important to sit down and talk
about what are responsibilities?
Do we allow consequences?
And maybe let's find some low stakes poker to work on
before, before we have these heaviest conversations.
Melissa Mitchell-Blitch: And it's so funny, this is a little bit of a rabbit
trail, but it's so funny, like, you know, if that dad's saying, I don't
understand why, or I don't understand why or why not, you know, so often we
use those words, I don't understand, but we don't seek understanding.
I don't understand.
So I judge, I don't understand.
So I feel hurt or angry as opposed to saying, I don't understand.
Let me get curious and go ask what this is about.
Adam Hatcher: The the other one is, well, yeah, uh, I know that's not how most
people act, but that's just how she is.
And then so like we don't wanna wrestle with that question, okay?
That family employee's behavior is outside the norm that we've established.
We, no one's handed them the flexibility to behave in that manner.
Okay?
But now what do we, what do we do?
Melissa Mitchell-Blitch: To do family enterprise, well, it takes
more courage than, than working in a different environment.
It takes more skill, it takes more self-awareness.
You know, if you work with your family, you, I believe, are in the
most complex type of entity that you could work, work for within and.
It.
It is just inherently challenging.
That's why you and I love coming alongside families to help
them navigate this complexity.
Cut through some of it, grow, learn, because there's so much at stake and
it's just inherently challenging.
Adam Hatcher: Yeah, it is.
it was John Ward, one of the godfathers of Family Business and Family Company
Research said there's a reason that this is the hardest job in the world.
You are trying to build a great company.
Most of us are.
You're trying to build a great company, great company, whatever that means.
It doesn't have to be huge, but one that is valuable and has a positive impact, and
at the same time, navigate the tension of an unconditional business with conditional
family and have a strong family as well, a great company, and a strong family.
When those two things pull against each other and what I've loved over.
This time together where we've given three things to think about with family
company flexibility, and last time where we unpacked the idea of boundaries, what
those are and how they show up is these are the skills like, listen, I wish
I'd had this language when I started.
Because it helps you.
It helps you navigate in a way that is unique to the family company.
Well, thank you.
This has been fun for me.
Thank you.
So thank you so much.
And will you please tell people it's in the, it'll be in the notes
again, links to your website and your book, but tell people how
to find you and then when someone calls Melissa, it sounds like what?
What?
Yeah.
Melissa Mitchell-Blitch: So my website is my name without the
hyphen, Melissa Mitchell glitch.com.
And if you're liking the Southern, Southern draw, I read the audio book
to you and it only takes four hours.
So I wanna put a plugin for that
Adam Hatcher: I, I, I listened to it.
I enjoyed it.
It's perfect on back roads in the southeast, but you
can do this in Denver too.
It's not geographically.
That's just, that was my experience
Melissa Mitchell-Blitch: that every family business is different, every situation
that they're experiencing is different.
And so if someone reaches out to me, it, it just starts with that
conversation, like you're saying, let you know, you're inviting family
members to sit around the table.
I invite a family member to reach out to me and just have a conversation.
What's going on?
You know, what are you hoping for?
Um, what, and just listening for opportunity first to, to, to
understand and then to, to feel, get a feel for do I think I can help.
Alright.
And if I think I can help, what might.
First step would be, but just a conversation.
Adam Hatcher: and.
What that leads to, uh, because you and I have talked, you and I have talked
ahead of this, what it leads to is helping families find issues that are
impacting the dynamic of working together.
I, I remember meeting a family once and before we could build any
governance or any structure, there were two family members who could not
communicate and they work together and it's so hard 'cause the rhythm of the
business forces you around each other.
It's not like when you're struggling with your sister and you can
just give each other space.
Uh, so that's what I app love about what you do, is that it uncovers why, why
is there friction every single time we interact and what do we do about that?
Alright, well, uh, I recommend your book, uh, I recommend the Southern
Draw Audio version of it as well.
And you can find Melissa's website and her book in the show notes this time.
Melissa, thank you so very much for being here.
Melissa Mitchell-Blitch: My pleasure, Adam.
Thank you for the invitation.
Adam Hatcher: These last couple of episodes were so fun
for me because Melissa has.
Opened up some critical conversations, and I hope in listening to this, you
can differentiate what Melissa is talking about from conversations you
have about family company budgets, strategy meetings, or even as
owners, how you do wealth planning.
It's a complimentary language and it's a distinct language, and I hope that the
last two episodes have helped you both.
Think or be introduced to boundaries and then wrestle with some particular concepts
like firm, fair and friendly, or flexible.
Every time you touch a 21 Clear Podcast, our goal.
To help you, or if it's the newsletter or if it's an event we do.
Our goal is to help you think about your inner family business, not working in
the company, not working on the company, but that unique dynamic of how you
all work and own the company together.
I hope this episode was helpful to you.
I look forward to seeing you next time, as my grandfather would've said.
Thank you so very, very much for listening.