[00:00:00] Dan: Hello and welcome back to We Not Me, the podcast where we explore how humans connect to get stuff done together. I'm Dan Hammond.

[00:00:13] Pia: And I am Pia Lee.

[00:00:15] Dan: It's lovely to see you Pier. And today's show is a big, old, beefy topic that I know is close to our hearts. We're gonna be talking about inclusion and it's yeah, it's a big, it's a big one. Looking towards digging into that with you.

[00:00:30] Pia: it's one of those motherhoody ones that you could just gloss over. But I think we're not going to do that. We're actually gonna get much deeper into it. And you know, you and I have talked about this before. We got a bit of, we got a history in the 

[00:00:42] Dan: We got history, haven't we? Yeah, we have, and this really dug up for me, to be honest with you. It's something I've thought about for a couple of decades now, but when I was working in the States it, it reminded me there was a, a big hire of some senior leader. And and it went to a woman who was hispanic, and she was also gay, so she was in terms of diversity stats, she was a three for, you know,

[00:01:05] Pia: She, She seriously that, 

[00:01:07] Dan: Yeah. exactly. And, you know, and she got the 

[00:01:09] Pia: got a number

[00:01:10] Dan: And I must have made, leave it. I must admit there was talk among the, you know, Predominantly white male community that she wasn't really the one best one for the job, and she got it because she's a three for or whatever. It ticks off.

[00:01:24] And it really gave me pause for thought at the time because actually I do value that idea of a meritocracy, you know, the best person should get the job. I've always thought that. I had always thought that. But I thought, you know, as I've my thoughts have matured over time, I've realized actually there's something bigger at play here, and that is actually, what sort of company do you want? Do you want something that is homogeneous, just the same? And, but even bigger than that, what sort of society do you want? Do you want people to be, do you want to be a diverse and for people included or do you want to keep on this same plowing, this same furrow? And I realize to actually achieve that bigger goal, you've got to take some bold choices, and and make sure that people are getting the opportunities that will take you in that direction.

[00:02:08] Pia: 100%. And you know, our behaviors always lag behind. People have traveled for hundreds, thousands of years. And we do have, you know, a diverse society. We've got people from all corners of the world. But it's how we behave. And that's what we're gonna dig into today. Cause I think actually this is inward. This is about our choices. This is about what we think. This is not about policies and all the superficial stuff.

[00:02:34] Dan: Exactly. And just like I had to face, it starts with mindset. What's important to me. And so, we are gonna be talking today to Marsha Ramroop, who is she's an inclusion advocate, I would say, and that's her profession. But she has a really interesting story and some great science Behind this topic, and of course as it's We Not Me, some really practical tips what we can all do to move towards that better world. 

[00:02:57] Marsha, a warm welcome to We Not Me. Thank you so much for joining us.

[00:03:04] Marsha: Oh no. It's so brilliant. Thank you so much for asking me to join this conversation.

[00:03:08] Dan: An absolute pleasure. Absolute pleasure. You've got some great points to make and I'm really looking forward to hearing hearing your thoughts on how humans connect to get stuff done. So, before we hear from you in more detail about all of that, I'm gonna pick one of these lovely conversation. 

[00:03:24] Marsha: Hit me. Hit me with a cart.

[00:03:27] Dan: Oh my goodness. I kid you not,

[00:03:29] Pia: Oh, come on.

[00:03:31] Dan: Sometimes they deliver an absolute bell to the, just total random. My biggest bias is

[00:03:37] Marsha: Oh no. Oh gosh. I have so, Well, I've just, I know. I'm a biased. I mean, to be human is to be biased, so, I guess. I always think I'm right. I just always, I assume I'm right about everything and that my point of view is absolute, and then therefore, I form a confirmation bias. I'm always looking to have my own viewpoints confirmed. So then recognizing that in myself has been quite a learning experience over the last 14 years. And, just Yeah, that's, I'm really aware of that one. managing it all the time. 

[00:04:18] Pia: Well that is work in progress for most of us actually. So tell us a bit about yourself, Marsha. So who are you, How did you come to be? What's your potted history?

[00:04:29] Marsha: Yeah. Well, you know, I tend to say that everyone's favorite subject is theirselves, but that's probably just me, and I might end up going for quite some time. So just reign me in, reign me in when you need to, you .

[00:04:39] Pia: We'll cut you off after thir 30 minutes when the podcast's said, Oh, thank you.

[00:04:44] Marsha: Um, So yeah, my name's Marsha Ramroop. As my name may suggest I am of Trinidadian heritage. So both my parents were born and brought up in Trinidad, which, and their loads of Indians in the Caribbean. And quite a lot of people don't really recognize that. But um, yeah, my parents came over, part of the letter into the Windrush generation to the UK. And for those who, the global audience who don't know, Windrush uh, refers to a ship that brought the first Caribbeans over post-war to the UK to help staff public services like the NHS and um, transport and so on. And so a lot of Caribbeans settled in the UK during the fifties, sixties and seventies. And I was first generation, me and my brother.

[00:05:29] And I'll tell you a little bit more about this, but both, both my brother and I were privately educated, which I think gives me the ability to, what I call hold white spaces, which again, probably talk little bit more about in a bit. And I used my ability to speak and to, to um, I'm a bit of an entertainer at heart, I think

[00:05:53] Pia: Oh.

[00:05:54] Marsha: And ended up going into radio. I started working radio when I was 15 and broadcast by first radio Sunday breakfast show when I was 15 and I had their, had a 30 year career in broadcasting. I went to uni and did my undergraduate, postgraduate in, in broadcasting. And also did a post-graduate management and ended up in leadership.

[00:06:13] But whilst I was working in local radio at the BBC, that's where I really started to think about how we work with our communities and how do we give our communities a voice. And how do we ensure that we tell stories the way that people wanted them told, not the way that, you know, anyone centrally wanted them told. And it's through doing that and, going into leadership in local radio and news editor and running radio stations that I started to be more strategic about how we did that.

[00:06:46] And as a result of doing that, I discovered cultural intelligence which is understanding why we want to do diversity and inclusion and knowing what we want those outcomes to look like. There's a missing bit in between, which is the how. And I believe that cultural intelligence is the how and it's proven to, to work. And developed my side hustle called Unheard Voice Consultancy, which I then went off to do after leaving the BBC.

[00:07:16] And then I spotted a job that I really wanted, which was Director of Inclusion at the Royal Institute of British Architects. RIBA. And uh, they said they wanted me, so I went totaled off and I did that for a couple of years. Long story short I ended up leaving that role having been hugely successful and really made, started to make the impression I wanted to make in the architecture environment, because I really believe that architecture in the built environment holds the key to inclusion. 

[00:07:50] So, if we think that people, places and power create our public spheres, then to be able to influence the creation of inclusive spaces for me was the ability to influence the creation of inclusive society, which is why I was so committed and still am committed to working in, in architecture in the built environment, because I really want to continue with that.

[00:08:12] So, back in Unheard Voice Consultancy I'm doing cultural intelligence and strategic inclusion for architecture and built environment.

[00:08:21] Pia: I'm gonna you a really low level question, which w So I'm m when started at in broadcasting what was then?

[00:08:31] Marsha: Well, I think at the time I was quite immature and for me it was just about, I love the sound of my own voice. I just wanna be on the radio. Come on, don't listen to me. Listen to me. I've got so many interesting things to say about this piece of music or that um, and for me, and I was reading the news and so yeah, it was really about, it was a very superficial at the time thing and I didn't really, I just knew that I was an entertainer and I could be a performer. And for me, just the development of the understanding of how powerful a medium it was, came through actually doing the work and really then getting to grips. Actually journalism, it's really important job. You know, to be able to tell stories and to share, to hold up that mirror to society. 

[00:09:27] And so, you know, quite a few people have said to me, Well, how do you move from journalism into inclusion? I'm like, Like this, this is not a big leap here. Because again, the holding up that mirror piece is very much what the diversity and inclusion is about for me. It's not about managing different people's identities, it's an introspective piece of work. Hold up the mirror to yourself and say, What is it about me that needs to change so I can be more inclusive of you, whoever you are?

[00:09:57] Because people are multilayered and you can't put people in boxes. You can't put individual in boxes because when we look at biological difference, if you like, there's more difference within a prescribed group. There's more diversity within a group than there are between groups. So, again, to go down another rabbit hole here, when you asked me about radio, I'm gonna end up talking about the Human Genome Project, which determined.

[00:10:24] Dan: we thought you'd never mention it. Carry on.

[00:10:28] Pia: if, if, If you're confused, listener, don't worry, so I.

[00:10:31] Marsha: So, say for example, if an alien were to land on planet Earth and to classify all the life forms on earth, they would find humans singularly boring because in terms of our genomes, there's only variation in 0.1% of them between all humans on the planet. So there are many species and subspecies of birds, bacteria, even cats. But of humans, we are just one homogenous race.

[00:11:02] And so when we look at things like our skin color or our gender or sex or our I dunno, our abilities, there's still greater difference within a group, like, let's say women than there are between women and men. And a lot of those differences that we ascribe are cultural, not biological. And for a cultural question, we need a cultural answer, which is why cultural intelligence is so important. You didn't know asking me about a low-level radio question was gonna end 

[00:11:35] Dan: That great. The dream ended up with genomics. I love it. I

[00:11:39] Pia: Well, I was gonna say actually that the beautiful thing about radio is that it is very democratic and inclusive. I don't wanna psychoanalyze you, I don't know you, but there is something about getting your voice heard and being inclusive in that medium. So maybe there's something that draws us. So to help me understand what you mean by inclusion, so what are we thinking of? Help me to define it.

[00:12:03] Marsha: So, I'm gonna row back just a tiny bit, and just talk about diversity as well, if I may. A lot of people talk about diversity as being, you know, race, gender, sexuality, and all these different siloed groups, but actually all diversity is, is the mix of visible and invisible difference. Everybody is part of diversity. And actually when we're talking. Diversity we are misnaming a different issue. And I'd like to throw this out, lovely little statistic. Actually gonna ask you both if you know the answer to this, and Dan, if you, if I've told you this one already, then. 

[00:12:38] Pia: Pretend that 

[00:12:38] Marsha: Yeah. Yeah. So what percentage of the UK population is why able bodied heterosexual men based in London and the Southeast?

[00:12:48] Pia: I'd say under 10%.

[00:12:50] Marsha: Yeah. The actual answer is 3.1% of the UK population is white able bodied, heterosexual men based in London, Southeast. And when we think about who runs our politics, our economics, our media, our culture, our tech, our, you know, everything, then we are looking actually what the real issue that we need to diagnose is not one of, diversity is one of underrepresentation. Because for every white, able bodied, heterosexual man based in London, who is working in government, shall we say, there should be 97 others who have different identities to that. But maybe that isn't necessarily the case. So when we're talking about diversity, I think really what we are talking about is and managing underrepresentation in our businesses, for example when we're talking about diversity. 

[00:13:42] So then inclusion is the act of valuing, respecting and accepting difference, whatever that difference might look like. So diversity is the fact of visible and invisible difference and inclusion is the act and the impact of bringing those two things together is equity. So you have equitable outcomes as a result.

[00:14:04] So inclusion for me is something that you need to work at. It is the organizational imperative, if you like if we're talking from a business behavior perspective. And so, going into organizations to help them to be inclusive is about developing behaviors. It's not just about having amazing policies or staff networks or mentoring schemes because you can have the best, most amazing policies and you can have really engaged staff networks and you can have award-winning mentoring schemes, but if you don't have the behaviors to implement those policies to support and listen to those networks and to engage properly with those mentoring schemes rather than just putting them forward for awards, then you are not gonna actually create inclusion in your organization. So inclusion is the act, but how do you create those behaviors? And that's why you need the cultural intelligence piece.

[00:15:12] Dan: I suppose a million dollar question is how do you do that, Marsha? Cuz what, we know that a lot of these things are driven by mindset, so you've gotta, presumably could dig quite deep to actually make the bit above the, the water level of the iceberg. How do you go about that?

[00:15:26] Marsha: Yeah. So it is that, and this is where, you know, the issues of discomfort. There's issues of defensiveness. There issues of fear. So let me describe what cultural intelligence is and then I can sort of break it down, how it's then implemented. 

[00:15:41] So, cultural intelligence, CQ, Q stands for questions because it's a measure as well as an improvable skill. Is the capability to work and relate effectively with people who are different from you. So really important piece of teamwork. How do you work and relate effectively with people who are different from you?

[00:16:05] So the question, the research question behind, it's been now been asked for quarter of a million people across, you know, 170 countries around the world. What's the difference between those that succeed in today's multicultural, globalized world and those that fail? What's the difference between success and failure and wanting to work and relate effectively across difference? And the answer keeps coming back that you need four capabilities.

[00:16:31] And the first is CQ drive. Your motivation. Do you actually want to work and relate effectively with those who are different from you? And uh, how do you motivate yourself? How do you use intrinsic and extrinsic motivators to motivate yourself to work and relate effectively with others? And really important part of the drive piece is your self-efficacy, your confidence. So how do you manage that fear? How do you manage the discomfort? How do you manage your defensiveness, which will activate when you are faced with difference? Your bias will activate. 

[00:17:08] And being able to really break that down comes down to the fact of how do you manage to lean into that discomfort? And sometimes it's about calling it out right at the beginning to say, We're gonna be talking about some things and you are going to feel uncomfortable and you'll know you're going to feel uncomfortable cuz it's gonna be like that little prickle at the back of your neck and your stomach is gonna start to tighten and you're going to feel like, Oh, I don't want to hear this. And when you start to feel that, stop. Take a moment and acknowledge that that's how you are feeling. And then you have a choice at that point. You can walk away, which is perfectly valid thing to do, but realize that if you walk away, you will not grow. You'll not learn. You'll not be any different from when you started the conversation. Or you can choose to lean into that discomfort knowing that that will lead to change and that you will learn and grow. That's the first capability CQ drive, motivation, and I think it's most under-recognized piece of any kind of change is do you want to do it?

[00:18:37] The second is CQ knowledge. What do you know what you need to know about lots of different lived experiences? And that's not just, you know, racialized difference or national difference. It's about different values and norms. It's about business systems. So how language of architecture is different to the language of, of graphic design, or how an organization like the BBC might work with a small production company, those kind of different cultures as well, different leadership styles. And I say that's the biggest piece of the puzzle because you can never know everything about everything and everything about everyone. So you have to surround yourself with that diversity of lived experience and listen to those voice is very different from your own. 

[00:19:18] The third piece of the puzzle is CQ strategy, and this is where you need to stop to think about what you are thinking about. Because if you are motivated and you have some knowledge, and you go straight into action without stopping to check your assumptions, to plan for working and relating across difference and being hugely personally self-aware, organizationally, self-aware, if you don't do those things, you'll act in a tokenistic and stereotypical way. So it's really important to stop, slow down, think and create procedural changes to mitigate the impact of hidden bias. That's what that CQ strategy is about. 

[00:20:02] And then finally, CQ action. Ultimately, people judge us on our behaviors. It's the reputational piece because the drive knowledge and strategies happening in your head. It's happening in the background ultimately. We need to go out and do the action and being adaptable in the way we speak, in the way we act understanding different situations and doing it well on the fly. That is what the CQ action piece is about. 

[00:20:27] And you can be measured against all these four capabilities and therefore understand how to improve. And that's it's proven that if you are high in CQ, you will act inclusively uh, very consciously inclusively. And that is the difference between success and failure when one working relating effectively with others. And so a really big, important piece of work, but it's starts by recognizing in itself that the work needs to be done. And it starts with a mirror holding.

[00:21:00] Pia: That's fascinating. I mean, uh, it so. I've got a million questions, but I think I'm gonna, I'm gonna, again, I'm gonna ask quite a broad one. I mean, let's take the UK. What's the research telling us? What's our culture intelligence? Is it improved?

[00:21:15] Marsha: Excellent question. And I think uh, the research says, if we look at the research coming out of the UN, for example, about how the UK is working relating effectively across difference, it's not good. So, the special rapport for race and racism, for example, has done two or three reports now about the increase of racism in the UK since Brexit, and as warned against a number of the different policies around immigration, for example. So, not good is the short answer to that question. And anyone can just go online and have a look at those reports coming out of the UN with regard to the UK's current government's policy on difference. 

[00:22:02] And I have to say this isn't specific to the UK. If we look across the world globally, we've seen a rise in polemics, and this isn't in itself a problem if we are not able to have the conversation about why is it that we cannot talk to each other ,well and disagree well, about our different perspectives. Why are we struggling to hold the two truths of we and me? How is it that we cannot understand that actually as a collectivist, uh, we also need to understand an individual's needs and that an individual also can look at the needs of the collective. Why is it that we can't be competitive, but also collaborative? And this is what the cultural intelligence piece actually helps us identify, but also helps us negotiate.

[00:23:05] If I may throw another load of statistics at you, bits of research. So amazing psychologist Dr. Timothy Wilson, you may have heard of. He wrote a book, Stranger to Ourselves, Discovering the Adaptive Unconscious. 20 years ago, he pulled together all the research done about our biases and the way our brains work.

[00:23:28] I'll ask you this one. Have I told you this one as well, Dan? At any given moment, how many pieces of information is your brain processing any given? Second, if you have access to all five senses?

[00:23:41] Pia: I would probably say that was fairly high until you going through the menopause, that it's potentially about sort of one.

[00:23:51] Marsha: At any given moment, your brain processes 11,000, a hundred, 10,000, 1 million or 11 million pieces of information. 

[00:23:59] Pia: Yeah, I'd say 11 million. 

[00:24:00] Marsha: 11 million is the correct answer. 

[00:24:02] Pia: Cool. You see the menopause cut through. She cut through. She came on the outside 

[00:24:09] Marsha: But at any given moment, how many pieces of information can you consciously process of that 11 million. So I'll give you four options again. 4, 40, 400 or 4,000? 

[00:24:24] Dan: I think it may just be me, but I think it's four

[00:24:27] Marsha: Four B, any advance in.

[00:24:29] Pia: Yeah, four or 40.

[00:24:31] Marsha: The answer's 40, you can give yourselves a little bit more credit, is 40. So at any given moment, your brain is processing 10,999,960 bits of information of which you are completely unaware. But if you think about it, if you, when you know, rouse yourself into consciousness every morning, if you had to think, I've got to swing my legs of the bed, I've got to walk to the toilet, I've got to release my sphincter, I've got to blink, I've got to breathe. You wouldn't actually be able to function as a human, but yeah, exactly. 

[00:25:00] So a lot of things happen unconsciously because they have to. It's a human biological need. But at the same time, that is the where we shortcut information and it's where we create bias. And I think if we were to really stop to think about, okay, to be human Is to be biased, you know, we have to shortcut these bits of information, then we can actually start to realize, Well, this is something I need to consciously do something about. And that's where the cultural intelligence piece comes in.

[00:25:34] We shouldn't blame ourselves. Maya Angelou says Forgive yourself for not knowing something before you learned it. And I think that if we can just recognize that the reason we feel and are a certain way is because we are, and we just simply need to navigate away from that. But we are creating biases all the time. Like if I were to ask you, when's the last time you memorized a telephone number? 

[00:26:01] Dan: 1993 I think 

[00:26:03] Marsha: Exactly, right? Exactly. You know, you, you put it straight into your phone. My two girls, they have their phones and I couldn't tell you what their, they've had them for years. I couldn't tell you what their numbers are. And the way they memorized our phone numbers is they learned a little song. Now they're teenagers, they're not really singing it. But anyway, the point is these technological changes, environmental changes, political changes, financial, they're all creating these shortcuts all the time. 

[00:26:33] Pia: And I think that's really interesting cuz hearing you talk and thinking again or sort of like bringing that broader, that radio analogy, FM and AM, there's a part where we are encouraged as you're talking around this cultural intelligence, to be bigger than ourselves to, you know, loveline neighbor, to embrace the difference. But on the other side, there is a nasty intent around division and it is right across the world and we are being pitted against each other in some kind of individualistic duel. There, I've said it. That is my beef. And that is pervasive. That is in every country in different ways. And then we learn, we sort of become this ridiculous survival of the fittest again, which I thought we'd evolve beyond that.

[00:27:26] Marsha: See, Pia, for me, I think that they are also part of the system. They obviously try, the maintenance of the status quo, the sewing of division, to maintain a status quo where in the UK's case, 3.1% remain in their power positions, those help to create that situation and maintain that situation. They're also victims. A system. I'm gonna, if I may, it's just your thinking and you are saying that made me think of this. I've just grabbed from my shelf How to Win Friends and Influence People by Dale Carnegie

[00:28:04] Pia: No 

[00:28:05] Marsha: It's a bit, which is a bit of a, joke, isn't it? 

[00:28:08] Dan: it's up minute research.

[00:28:10] Marsha: Absolutely. Written in 1936, right? So it's very gendered in its language and, but because it was written in 1936, Dale Carnegie's frame of reference is Al Capone. And uh, this is what he says about Al Capone. He says, Suppose you had Al Capone's environment and experiences, you would then be precisely what he was and where he was. For his those things and only those things that made him what he was. The only reason, for example, that you are not a rattlesnake is that your mother and father weren't rattlesnakes. You deserve very little credit for being what you are. And remember the people who come to you irritated, bigoted, unreasoning, deserve very little discredit for being what they are. Feel sorry for the poor devils. Pity them. Sympathize with them. Say to yourself There but for the grace of God go I. 

[00:29:12] And I think there's a piece to play in helping everyone see, helping that, the education piece, we've just got to keep doing it. We've just got to keep the awareness raising. We've just got to keep everyone recognizing that we all have a part to play in recognizing the systems in which we live, and rather than fannying around the edges and managing symptoms, let's try to take apart the systems that create discrimination and dismantle those. It's a fundamentally different way of thinking.

[00:29:52] So, Einstein says, Well, one of, one of the definitions attributed him is the definition of madness is doing the same thing over and over again expecting a different result. What he actually said was that humans need to reach a new level of consciousness in order to create different outcomes. And that kind of cognitive evolution is something we have to continuously think about. We need to name the issues so we can rename them, and we can tackle them, so we can get to different outcomes.

[00:30:26] Dan: I love the idea, Marsha of being compassionate with those people that we see, we could easily see as an enemy in this. It's a great reminder and actually it's very hard to sort of Say I think we should all love each other, but not you. You don't count cuz you are one of the nasty ones that's in power. So I think it's, it's a really good reminder.

[00:30:45] But I've, and I've also really interested in this motivation side because as things develop, as you say, I see that progress is being made, but also there's a backlash to that progress. There's people wanting obviously not to make that happen. I think that's actually driving a lot of what we're seeing in the world. And one of the things I've seen recently is the rise of those 3.1% white men saying, Yeah, but I can't leave my job now because I'll never get another job, because I'm a white 50 year old man or whatever. So, and they start to then, In a way, ridiculously, but thinking rattlesnake, understandably, they feel like they become the victim.

[00:31:24] Now I'm, I have very little room tolerance for that viewpoint, and I've been arguing with people against it. But that's another motivational piece that we have to deal with, isn't it? At that deep motivational level. Why would people act in this way that's In the interest of the collective, but actually is it against their self interest? It's quite entrenched, I suppose, but what's the I'm sure you've seen a lot of it.

[00:31:46] Marsha: Yeah, so the quote that I tend to use that, that I attribute it to, to Dr. Adam Rutherford, but other people have said it, When all you've ever known is privilege, equality feels like oppression. 

[00:32:00] Pia: Mm. 

[00:32:01] Marsha: And so, recognizing that actually other people have not had the kind of, you know, you, I know people have to work hard to get where they are, but some people definitely have to work harder because of various identities or characteristics that are attributed to them. They may not call it upon themselves to say, Well, okay, look at me, I'm a brown, white, bi married woman who has children and, you know, all these different identities that I have, are they supposed to be discounted when I go for it? Yes, they should, but they're not.

[00:32:41] And so, you know, definitely being able to recognize that other people have had a harder time may mean, okay, you are going back into the job market and there's more competition out there, but that's actually the fairer state of affairs. And so we talk about meritocracy but actually it isn't because being good at something, I mean, we've seen how people who just simply aren't good enough still rise around us in, you know, organizations, in leadership positions, and those who've had to work really hard, got ton load more qualifications, whatever it might be, just aren't getting there because something about them doesn't quite fit. Come on. Is that really right? 

[00:33:33] But the thing is, there is a perception that there's some kind of limit to progress, human progress or you know, the value that we have in our society. There isn't. This is actually about growing opportunity for all. And actually there are so many opportunities out there for us to be a thriving society. So rather than having a small pot, actually what we are really looking at is a bigger cake, if everyone is given the opportunity to thrive in the way that we could. So It's a fallacy that anyone heading out back out into the marketplace won't find a new job because, you know, simply they're so many to go around or whatever. Actually, it's about thinking differently. That new level, that cognitive evolution and that new level of consciousness that we all need to adopt so that we can thrive.

[00:34:29] Dan: I think you mentioned fit as well there. I think thinking through the, By the way, so when I first came across unconscious bias, I was actually one of those people that I don't have any unconscious biases, without noticing that actually it's the unconsciousness of it that makes them a bit tricky. But one of them was that I was doing, if I look back on my career now, one of the things we used to do was interview for fit, and I've realized that's problematic in itself. And I think you just mentioned fit. And I'm guessing now you have to take a different view of that. Do not, do they fit because they like us, but do they fit because they bring more to us? How should we view sort of that idea? Should we chuck it out? Should we see it differently? What's good approach there?

[00:35:04] Marsha: So we talk about culture fit in an organization or a team. But actually you should be looking at culture add. So, as long as someone has the skills, abilities and capabilities to do the role, there are always going to be clashes and conflicts. But how do you manage that well? And actually, there is that fallacy that if you have a diverse team, you're gonna have more innovative and better outcomes. And that's a fallacy because if you have a diverse team where you have a lot of difference and you brought in culture add, but then you don't have the behaviors to make sure that all of those different viewpoints are listened to and acted on and consciously you are able to manage that difference using cultural intelligence, then actually you're gonna have a poorer performing team than if everybody was the same. 

[00:36:00] And so, what the research shows is that actually you'll be six times more innovative if six or eight times, Sorry, forgive me. Should have checked my stats before coming on. But it's definitely more 

[00:36:12] Dan: Yeah. 

[00:36:13] Marsha: if you are diverse and inclusive with high cultural intelligence. So, you bring in the culture add, but then you have to have the behaviors to allow that creative conflict to reach those better solutions. Because what you're hiring for. When you're bringing in someone who's gonna bring a different perspective. You don't want them to assimilate. You need to have a different culture, that inclusive culture where they can thrive and they can bring their difference and have that opportunity to grow your organization.

[00:36:46] Dan: That was something I took from one of your posts, Marsha, was something that we've actually explored on this on, on this show to, to look at how you can actually bring people in. But that ranking of team effectiveness from a diverse but non-inclusive team is beaten by a homogeneous team. is beaten by a diverse plus inclusive team. And I think that's just such a handy thing to, to remember, that you've gotta really do the work on this inclusion, not just hire different people and hope it's gonna work because actually the forces can actually throw that thing, throw that team apart.

[00:37:21] Marsha: That's right. And, um, the main point I would say here is about the importance of leadership. To come back to your areas of expertise here, this is from Gruenert and Whitaker, they have a book called School Culture Rewired from 2015. They said The culture of any organization is shaped by the worst behaviors leaders are willing to tolerate.

[00:37:45] And so I flip that on its head and say The culture of any organization can be shaped by the best behaviors leaders are willing to demonstrate. And by best behaviors, I tend to point them to the cultural intelligence piece, and therefore that ability to create that inclusive, psychologically safe environment for diverse teams to thrive. 

[00:38:10] And so in order for anyone to be thinking about, Well, how do I create great teams? Really and do that leadership piece and embed the best kind of cultures. It for me will always come back to cultural intelligence. 

[00:38:28] Pia: We have a question in our platform, Squadify, straight talking without offense, and that ability to be able to play the ball, the person. And for it to be safe enough for the answer. But, you know, we do have great tactics. We avoid it. We try and be nice. And that's your tokenism, you know, we just. But we're we're not really getting to the crux of the matter. And I think unless we do our own work, we can't judge on somebody else's. And it's, whether we're prepared to do that really is a key point for me. You know, this isn't gonna be solved, solved by others doing, it's gonna be solved by, Individually doing our own stuff and collectively making that stance. 

[00:39:07] Marsha: Absolutely, and, and I tend to say that it's by changing your world, that you can change the world. The personal responsibility piece is the key to any kind of change, cuz you can only change yourself. You can't force change on others.

[00:39:27] Dan: So that might be a cue for our closing tip. Marsha, what, Where do people, This has been wonderful and there's so much there and thank you for all the science as well. It's just I'm sure our listener will be, there, will be just full of new things to, well, a motivation actually to try something new. What should they do? Where can they make us start?

[00:39:49] Marsha: So the two things. So obviously I would point people to um, finding more more about cultural intelligence. And uh, the, the home of cultural intelligence, the cultural intelligence center is at culturalq.com. But the main tip I think for everyone to take away is I want you to look at your, your phones, your social media, especially your messaging apps, and look at your top 25 contacts, and I want you to look at those and start to look at where are the gaps in the kinds of people that you engage with. And this isn't just about age and race, sexuality, but it might be profess. It might be geographical diversity, it might be physical ability, disability. Anything like that. Just really start to look at yourself and who do you listen to? Who do you surround yourself with? Who do you believe? And then start to explore what those gaps are, and to start making that step into leaning into that discomfort to discover why you have those gaps and look to fill them.

[00:41:01] Pia: That's quite profound I think, because I think we might all uncomfortably find that we surrounded ourselves with people that are rather like ourselves. And that then makes us feel safe. So I think that is a level of discomfort, which, again, how can you have diversity if you're surrounded by the same voices, just in, in an echo chamber?

[00:41:23] Dan: Ironically, I think Marsha, it brings us back to the start. The mixers all feel right as well, doesn't it? We never get challenged, so it's very nice to have all those people around us confirming our most brilliant thoughts. But uh, yeah. It's just the best. It's just the best. But that is too much comfort and is should set the alarm bells ringing that we need to get into a bit of discomfort.

[00:41:44] Marsha, thank you so much for joining us. We've had a wonderful conversation with you and, uh, and best of luck on your mission. You're doing such good work and I know these are challenging times, but it's really wonderful to hear someone trying to reverse the flow. So thank you.

[00:41:59] Marsha: Been brilliant. Thank you so much.

[00:42:00] 

[00:42:04] Dan: Oh my goodness. That quote, When all you've known is privilege, equality can look like oppression. I don't think I've really felt that oppression myself, but I can see that in those people I've talked to and thinking personally I've had privilege. You know, I'm one of those white men who went to private school and and I've haven't always recognized what advantage that gave me, but it's becoming pretty clear now. 

[00:42:28] Pia: Well, it shapes the system. I mean, if you are part of the majority, part of our human nature is to want to be part of the majority. It's scary on the outside fringes.

[00:42:38] You know, when I, when I was teaching, you know, 30 years ago It was illegal to mention that you were gay and you could be sacked. And I knew that. And when you operate on the, on those fringes and you are having to rely on the majority to accept you, you're not entitled to anything cuz you could be flicked out of the system.

[00:43:01] Dan: Well, Pia, all I can say to you is you should try being ginger.

[00:43:04] Pia: Well, I have to, Yeah, I didn't wanna go deep down into that trauma that you've had to carry,

[00:43:11] Dan: No, but joking aside, yeah, 

[00:43:13] Pia: it did definitely shape me because over what I realized early on was that it didn't matter how much I jumped up and down and wanted people to change, it was the majority that was gonna have to change. And the majority somehow was judging me by, well, don't make it too hard on us by what you wear or how you behave, or you know you're not gonna wear Doc Martens and shave all your hair off are you? I do now, but you know, I didn't then, but. But it's interesting. It's interesting because I think we're all afraid actually to be on our own. We are really afraid. We are, We've talked about this before. We need to connect. So then what we do is then we judge other people and we sort of make them outer. 

[00:43:59] Dan: You can form tribes or you try to integrate or form tribes. Yeah,

[00:44:03] Pia: She's not inclusion. So we've gotta rise above that. And that's what I really liked that there's this whole sort of the key parts of this cultural intelligence. It's almost like inclusive intelligence, you know, gotta really, we've gotta hone that skill.

[00:44:18] Dan: And I think some of those things are very visible. I think there's other pieces I thought was really interesting about thinking styles, for example, how they're, they're the invisible part that marsha talked about. But we can exclude people because they don't think like us. And, and um, it's a real, definitely a real skill this, but I love the way she hit on that motivation. And it's a very, We Not Me thing to think about actually, how can we all have greater motivation to see a bigger picture, to see a better future society where people are included and build that motivation within us and then do something about it, whether that's in our teams, our families, our society. But constantly be learning to do a better job.

[00:45:02] Pia: And thank God we've got people like Marsha in the world, because I think they're gonna, they're gonna hold us to account, which I think is really important. 

[00:45:10] Dan: Exactly. Cuz there's work to do. I think that trans people and you know, the neurodivergent people, they're all quite, they, they all need to be included now and beyond. Who knows what's next. So, uh, but it's about having that that motivation, that attitude to include all.

[00:45:23] But that is it for this episode. You can find show notes and resources at squadify.net, just click on the We Not Me podcast link. If you've enjoyed the show, please share the love and recommend it to your friends. Also, please do give us a rating on your favorite podcast platform. You can also contribute to the show by leaving us a voice note with a question or a comment. Just find the link in the show. We, Not Me, is produced by Mark Steadman of Origin. Thank you so much for listening. It's goodbye from me.

[00:45:51] Pia: And it's goodbye from me.