1 00:00:00,000 --> 00:00:03,720 [Electronic beat] 2 00:00:05,800 --> 00:00:08,080 [Enda:] Welcome to Futures Conversations, 3 00:00:08,080 --> 00:00:11,480 the Edinburgh Futures Institute podcast that showcases 4 00:00:11,480 --> 00:00:15,400 all the wonderful research taking place at the Edinburgh Futures Institute. 5 00:00:16,320 --> 00:00:19,720 Research at the Futures Institute is challenge-led and interdisciplinary 6 00:00:20,080 --> 00:00:23,680 addressing many of the greatest challenges we face in the world today. 7 00:00:24,480 --> 00:00:28,800 I'm your host, Enda Delaney, the Director of Research at the Futures Institute. 8 00:00:28,800 --> 00:00:32,520 [Electronic beat] 9 00:00:35,120 --> 00:00:38,360 [Enda:] In this episode, I'm joined by Professor Liaura Cram. 10 00:00:38,360 --> 00:00:43,040 Laura is Professor of Neuropolitics and Director of Neuropolitics Research Lab 11 00:00:43,040 --> 00:00:45,240 at the Edinburgh Futures Institute. 12 00:00:46,080 --> 00:00:49,000 Laura, could you tell us a little bit about your background, where you grew up, 13 00:00:49,000 --> 00:00:50,560 who inspired you, 14 00:00:50,560 --> 00:00:53,280 what values were important to your family and social group?- 15 00:00:53,280 --> 00:00:53,880 [Laura:] Yeah, sure. 16 00:00:53,880 --> 00:00:57,120 So, I actually was born in Edinburgh. 17 00:00:57,720 --> 00:01:00,480 And, I did go to school just down the road from here. 18 00:01:00,480 --> 00:01:03,720 So I went to Tollcross Primary for a while and then across to Gillespie’s. 19 00:01:05,360 --> 00:01:08,600 And for me, in some ways, it's not at all 20 00:01:08,720 --> 00:01:11,880 surprising that I would end up somewhere in education. 21 00:01:11,880 --> 00:01:15,360 Education has always played a really, really important role in my background. 22 00:01:16,360 --> 00:01:19,800 I had a very, very challenging early childhood. 23 00:01:20,400 --> 00:01:24,080 And my mum basically ran away with us as three children. 24 00:01:24,520 --> 00:01:25,920 And we came to Edinburgh, 25 00:01:25,920 --> 00:01:29,280 lived in a one bedroom flat with my granny and granddad in Leith, 26 00:01:29,800 --> 00:01:33,120 and was there having to find a way to look after 27 00:01:33,120 --> 00:01:36,040 and bring up her children in this new environment. 28 00:01:36,040 --> 00:01:39,200 She had taken her Highers and could have gone to university, but 29 00:01:39,200 --> 00:01:42,600 had- they had now expired, so that that was an issue. 30 00:01:42,960 --> 00:01:47,160 But one positive thing that I always took, even from the very earliest part, 31 00:01:47,160 --> 00:01:51,040 from the time we did live with my father, who I don't have a relationship with, was 32 00:01:51,040 --> 00:01:52,840 there were always books in the house, 33 00:01:52,840 --> 00:01:56,280 there were always encyclopedias in the house that were always pointed to. 34 00:01:56,640 --> 00:01:59,680 And for my dad, his aspiration to get out of 35 00:01:59,680 --> 00:02:02,680 what had been a very difficult childhood for him was education. 36 00:02:02,960 --> 00:02:05,960 And his belief for me as the oldest child was always, 37 00:02:06,000 --> 00:02:09,720 “you’ll go to university, you will be one of those things” and those things sort of, 38 00:02:09,720 --> 00:02:10,960 I think, stick with you. 39 00:02:10,960 --> 00:02:13,960 When we moved to Edinburgh, my mum re-did her Highers, 40 00:02:14,480 --> 00:02:17,480 while she was taking like a typing course to just feed us, 41 00:02:17,520 --> 00:02:20,640 and then went back and trained as a teacher. 42 00:02:21,040 --> 00:02:24,000 So education always, always was part of us. 43 00:02:24,000 --> 00:02:27,000 There was always somebody studying at a table late at night. 44 00:02:27,320 --> 00:02:30,840 Over the years, my grandmother, who obviously her life would have gone 45 00:02:30,840 --> 00:02:33,960 into disarray, having all these kids come and live in her house [laughs] 46 00:02:34,960 --> 00:02:36,120 Then she trained. 47 00:02:36,120 --> 00:02:39,120 She was a civil servant by day, but she trained as a yoga teacher. 48 00:02:39,480 --> 00:02:42,560 And also always, always was at night school. 49 00:02:42,560 --> 00:02:44,520 So she was always up at Edinburgh University 50 00:02:44,520 --> 00:02:47,040 actually doing things like Indian philosophy courses. 51 00:02:47,720 --> 00:02:49,320 And so, yeah, for me, 52 00:02:49,320 --> 00:02:53,160 the notion of education was always, it was about aspiration and escape. 53 00:02:53,200 --> 00:02:56,960 It was about, erm, a way of survival and feeding people. 54 00:02:57,160 --> 00:03:00,960 But it's also always been about a way of life, curiosity, 55 00:03:00,960 --> 00:03:02,760 learning, expanding your horizons. 56 00:03:02,760 --> 00:03:04,480 So, like my granny in the sort 57 00:03:04,480 --> 00:03:08,680 of early 80s went off to study in India to- to progress her yoga studies. 58 00:03:08,680 --> 00:03:11,360 And that was really unusual for a woman of those generations. 59 00:03:11,360 --> 00:03:16,760 So I've always been really surrounded by people who saw education and learning 60 00:03:17,040 --> 00:03:21,640 as critical, but also who really went for the sort of curious and unusual. 61 00:03:22,280 --> 00:03:25,280 And I think that that probably is reflected in where I've ended up. 62 00:03:25,560 --> 00:03:28,920 And although I did well at school, 63 00:03:29,160 --> 00:03:32,600 I was always one of these people who kind of, I did well but 64 00:03:33,080 --> 00:03:35,880 I was always looking for something a bit more exciting or, 65 00:03:35,880 --> 00:03:36,960 where the next thing was. 66 00:03:36,960 --> 00:03:41,160 And at 17, obviously being Scottish, I could do my Highers in my fifth year. 67 00:03:41,400 --> 00:03:45,120 So I had done enough Highers to know that I could get to university and, 68 00:03:45,320 --> 00:03:48,320 but I just, I didn't want to, to stay on at school. 69 00:03:48,560 --> 00:03:50,080 I'd really outgrown it. 70 00:03:50,080 --> 00:03:53,080 But I wasn't at all sure that I wanted to go to university. 71 00:03:53,160 --> 00:03:56,400 So I went and worked in the Bank of Scotland in Saint Andrew Square. 72 00:03:57,240 --> 00:04:00,320 And I began even doing my banking exams there. 73 00:04:00,560 --> 00:04:03,720 But it didn't take me very long to realise that wasn't the job for me. 74 00:04:04,160 --> 00:04:07,120 And even during that year- and now when I look back, 75 00:04:07,120 --> 00:04:08,200 I think that's quite unusual. 76 00:04:08,200 --> 00:04:09,120 Like I was 17, 77 00:04:09,120 --> 00:04:12,160 but I went and did modern Greek classes at night school at Edinburgh University. 78 00:04:12,160 --> 00:04:15,920 So my very first learning experience at Edinburgh was in the Appleton Tower 79 00:04:15,920 --> 00:04:18,920 doing modern Greek as a- as a night class. 80 00:04:18,920 --> 00:04:20,760 Then I went off and worked in Greece, 81 00:04:20,760 --> 00:04:24,560 and at that point I decided I would apply to university, 82 00:04:24,800 --> 00:04:29,960 completely pivoted and I applied to do Modern Greek and Political Science. 83 00:04:30,360 --> 00:04:32,360 I wanted to do Modern Greek. 84 00:04:32,360 --> 00:04:33,720 I loved living in Greece. 85 00:04:33,720 --> 00:04:39,160 And, at the time, you could only do Modern Greek at Oxford, Cambridge, London Kings, 86 00:04:39,160 --> 00:04:42,160 and Birmingham, but the others would only let you do it with classics. 87 00:04:42,160 --> 00:04:43,920 So I went to Birmingham. 88 00:04:43,920 --> 00:04:48,680 I studied in Thessalonica for a year and then worked on an EU project 89 00:04:48,680 --> 00:04:52,760 up in the mountains, in a village in Crete, where a letter came through the door. 90 00:04:52,760 --> 00:04:54,640 In those days you still got letters, 91 00:04:54,640 --> 00:04:58,000 that said, we're starting this brand new master's degree. 92 00:04:58,000 --> 00:05:04,240 It was from Bath University and it was run with 5 or 6 other European countries. 93 00:05:04,240 --> 00:05:07,320 So with Tilburg in the Netherlands, with the University of Crete. 94 00:05:07,320 --> 00:05:11,560 What the cohort did was they came from all different countries in the EU 95 00:05:11,680 --> 00:05:12,720 and we traveled together. 96 00:05:12,720 --> 00:05:14,680 We did three months in Maynooth, 97 00:05:14,680 --> 00:05:17,880 three months in Tilburg and then three months at your home university. 98 00:05:18,480 --> 00:05:22,560 So that very much cemented- so that was my European Social Policy Analysis. 99 00:05:22,560 --> 00:05:27,360 And that's how I then came to be studying, European Public Policy for my PhD- 100 00:05:28,040 --> 00:05:31,200 [Enda:] Because your earlier work was on sort of European politics. 101 00:05:31,200 --> 00:05:34,040 And I can understand now listening to your biography- [Laura:] [Laughs]- 102 00:05:34,040 --> 00:05:37,880 [Enda:] But could you tell us a little bit about what drove you into that sort of 103 00:05:39,120 --> 00:05:40,360 set of interests?- 104 00:05:40,360 --> 00:05:40,640 [Laura:] Yeah. 105 00:05:40,640 --> 00:05:44,480 So I was- so it was European Social Policy Analysis was what I was studying. 106 00:05:44,480 --> 00:05:50,480 So, my dissertation was on, the development of European Union social policy. 107 00:05:50,480 --> 00:05:52,400 In those days, again, things were really different. 108 00:05:52,400 --> 00:05:54,720 So like as an undergraduate, I had a full grant. 109 00:05:54,720 --> 00:05:57,720 And when I did my master's degree, I had, 110 00:05:57,960 --> 00:05:59,440 an ESRC grant for masters 111 00:05:59,440 --> 00:06:00,720 you could apply for, for one year. 112 00:06:00,720 --> 00:06:04,800 And then I was applying, for PhD funding. 113 00:06:05,760 --> 00:06:08,760 And I decided that I would 114 00:06:08,880 --> 00:06:13,120 continue the study in the area of European Union Social Policy. 115 00:06:13,120 --> 00:06:17,040 And I was really privileged to have Rudolf Klein as my supervisor. 116 00:06:18,040 --> 00:06:22,640 And he was a- he was a really great person for me at that time because not only 117 00:06:23,120 --> 00:06:26,400 was he really good at saying to me “Laura, I don't think you're an ideologue. 118 00:06:26,400 --> 00:06:29,400 I think you need to question some of these things that you’re doing.” 119 00:06:29,520 --> 00:06:32,920 He also really, offered me opportunities. 120 00:06:33,200 --> 00:06:37,680 I went very early on in my- I think my first three months of the PhD, 121 00:06:38,480 --> 00:06:42,480 I went off and gave a paper in Italy, with some really, 122 00:06:42,720 --> 00:06:45,720 senior people like Jean Blondel, and Giandomenico Majone. 123 00:06:45,840 --> 00:06:47,280 And that really changed my career 124 00:06:47,280 --> 00:06:50,760 because it meant I had connections and people who then could vouch for me. 125 00:06:51,280 --> 00:06:54,760 But I didn't show any great loyalty, because just about six months 126 00:06:54,760 --> 00:06:56,280 after starting my PhD, 127 00:06:56,280 --> 00:06:59,760 a job came up at Warwick University with Jeremy Richardson, 128 00:07:00,120 --> 00:07:03,120 and he was starting the European Public Policy Institute. 129 00:07:03,120 --> 00:07:04,760 And for me, it was just one of those things 130 00:07:04,760 --> 00:07:07,320 where you look at it and go, that's got my name all over it. 131 00:07:07,320 --> 00:07:09,960 This is what I'm interested in. 132 00:07:09,960 --> 00:07:14,400 And yeah, so I took that job as a as a research assistant at Warwick, 133 00:07:14,560 --> 00:07:17,840 so I never really was a PhD student. 134 00:07:17,840 --> 00:07:22,000 I always worked full time, while I was completing my PhD. 135 00:07:22,320 --> 00:07:25,360 And I think about a year into that post, I got a lectureship at Warwick, 136 00:07:25,800 --> 00:07:29,160 and then about a year later I moved to Strathclyde, 137 00:07:29,160 --> 00:07:31,440 all as European Politics- 138 00:07:31,440 --> 00:07:32,600 [Enda:] The field of Neuropolitics 139 00:07:32,600 --> 00:07:35,520 that you've been a pioneer in, I’m fascinated by, 140 00:07:35,520 --> 00:07:38,080 but can you explain it for our listeners? 141 00:07:38,080 --> 00:07:40,120 How would you sum up the field?- 142 00:07:40,120 --> 00:07:42,840 [Laura:] Over the years working on European Public Policy, 143 00:07:42,840 --> 00:07:47,880 I became really interested in the way that the creation of a policy 144 00:07:47,880 --> 00:07:51,000 in an international organisation might shape 145 00:07:51,000 --> 00:07:54,000 the way that the public saw that organisation. 146 00:07:54,320 --> 00:07:57,880 And so that that developed into a question about 147 00:07:57,880 --> 00:08:01,120 how we come to identify with different levels of government, 148 00:08:01,720 --> 00:08:04,800 whether we're prepared to shift our identities, what are the factors that, erm, 149 00:08:05,640 --> 00:08:08,280 help to- to explain that. 150 00:08:08,280 --> 00:08:10,600 And at the time, when I was at Strathclyde, 151 00:08:10,600 --> 00:08:13,480 I had a lovely colleague: Stratos Patrikios, 152 00:08:13,480 --> 00:08:16,960 who was working in Political Psychology and experiments, and it was quite unusual, 153 00:08:16,960 --> 00:08:19,520 really hard to get published experiments then [laughs] 154 00:08:19,520 --> 00:08:22,120 but we started then saying, well, you know what if 155 00:08:22,120 --> 00:08:25,240 we had a look at how these symbols affect people and there'd been terrific research, erm, 156 00:08:26,680 --> 00:08:29,880 in psychology, political psychology, looking at the effect of things 157 00:08:29,880 --> 00:08:30,840 like flags. 158 00:08:30,840 --> 00:08:35,160 And so we worked on that in- in the European Union. 159 00:08:36,080 --> 00:08:39,760 And then when I came to Edinburgh, 160 00:08:40,080 --> 00:08:43,480 I cheekily asked the principal, who was then Tim O’Shea, 161 00:08:44,320 --> 00:08:48,440 if they would give me time, because I really had this hunch 162 00:08:48,680 --> 00:08:52,560 that the ways we were trying to get at it weren't sufficient to fully understand 163 00:08:52,560 --> 00:08:55,560 the mechanisms that were underlying these processes. 164 00:08:55,600 --> 00:08:57,120 And I felt that there were insights 165 00:08:57,120 --> 00:09:00,640 from cognitive neuroscience that would help us to explain that. 166 00:09:00,840 --> 00:09:04,040 But I knew that I wouldn't have much credibility if I came in with no training. 167 00:09:04,040 --> 00:09:04,920 And so he, erm, 168 00:09:05,880 --> 00:09:08,400 agreed, that I could have half of my time 169 00:09:08,400 --> 00:09:12,720 when I first moved to Edinburgh University to study Cognitive Neuropsychology and 170 00:09:12,720 --> 00:09:18,360 Neuroimaging, I kind of split the degrees between Brain Imaging Research Centres 171 00:09:18,720 --> 00:09:22,160 Master's degree and Psychology Master's degree here. 172 00:09:22,520 --> 00:09:26,120 And always knowing that would never give me enough to do the work myself. 173 00:09:26,120 --> 00:09:29,200 But that would give me enough to know what I didn't know when I was talking to 174 00:09:29,200 --> 00:09:32,200 fabulous postdoctoral researchers and other researchers 175 00:09:32,440 --> 00:09:36,120 in this interdisciplinary field. You know, like all of these things, 176 00:09:37,080 --> 00:09:39,720 fields developed from lots of different angles at the same time. 177 00:09:39,720 --> 00:09:41,400 So at the same sort of, 178 00:09:41,400 --> 00:09:44,400 period, there were people like Darren Schreiber working in that area. 179 00:09:44,600 --> 00:09:47,720 There are fabulous colleagues in New York working, 180 00:09:48,120 --> 00:09:51,960 from a psychological perspective, looking at these questions. 181 00:09:51,960 --> 00:09:54,280 And now there are- there are a growing number of centres 182 00:09:54,280 --> 00:09:57,480 our colleagues in- in London Center for Politics of Feelings. 183 00:09:57,480 --> 00:09:59,640 So there's a- you know, there's a whole body of people 184 00:09:59,640 --> 00:10:01,200 coming at this from, from different angles. 185 00:10:01,200 --> 00:10:04,920 But I would say what everybody shares, whether we come as a- as neuroscientists, 186 00:10:04,920 --> 00:10:07,400 as political scientists or as psychologists, 187 00:10:07,400 --> 00:10:11,640 is, erm, an understanding that- that what's going on under the hood 188 00:10:12,000 --> 00:10:16,800 might help us to get better insights into some of the mechanisms 189 00:10:16,800 --> 00:10:20,520 and patterns that- that we've recognised in each of our fields. 190 00:10:20,520 --> 00:10:23,760 So insights from political scientists might help the psychologists, 191 00:10:24,120 --> 00:10:27,120 some of the questions that they're looking at or the neuroscientists to, 192 00:10:27,120 --> 00:10:31,080 to, to target some of their investigations and insights from the, 193 00:10:31,080 --> 00:10:34,320 the cognitive neurosciences and political psychology could help us 194 00:10:34,320 --> 00:10:38,120 as political scientists to say, look, we've seen these patterns emerging. 195 00:10:38,320 --> 00:10:39,720 Why do they keep happening? 196 00:10:39,720 --> 00:10:44,400 You know, what helps us maybe to- to identify some of the underlying mechanisms 197 00:10:44,400 --> 00:10:48,400 for some of the theories and practices that- that we observe.- 198 00:10:48,400 --> 00:10:51,360 [Enda:] Historically, it's about more sort of behavioural approaches. 199 00:10:51,360 --> 00:10:53,400 Looking, to use your phrase, under the hood. 200 00:10:53,400 --> 00:10:57,560 It seems to me, you know, a strikingly original way of doing- 201 00:10:57,760 --> 00:11:01,600 Did you meet resistance when you- erm, or was everyone, 202 00:11:01,920 --> 00:11:05,320 was embracing this sort of new way of thinking about how people acted?- 203 00:11:05,840 --> 00:11:07,560 [Laura:] Yeah, it's interesting, is interesting. 204 00:11:07,560 --> 00:11:09,600 I think, it can go either way. 205 00:11:09,600 --> 00:11:12,680 I think either it can be quite appealing because it's quite blingy 206 00:11:12,680 --> 00:11:13,440 and something new. 207 00:11:13,440 --> 00:11:17,960 And there's also another side where almost immediately where we're always, 208 00:11:18,240 --> 00:11:21,240 faced with the questions about ethics, erm, 209 00:11:22,480 --> 00:11:23,600 and it can, erm, 210 00:11:23,600 --> 00:11:27,960 that that's entirely correct and, and, and appropriate and, and it really does 211 00:11:27,960 --> 00:11:31,600 require very, very careful, ethical consideration, but also, 212 00:11:32,600 --> 00:11:34,880 it can sometimes come with a little bit of a fear factor 213 00:11:34,880 --> 00:11:39,200 because it can be a bit associated with, being used against people’s will. 214 00:11:39,200 --> 00:11:41,160 So maybe I'll be a bit more like neutral marketing 215 00:11:41,160 --> 00:11:43,520 or capturing people when they don't know they're being seen. 216 00:11:43,520 --> 00:11:46,240 Insights like, which isn't the kind of research that we do, 217 00:11:46,240 --> 00:11:50,680 as with all things that come up for real, sort of cutting edge, it's remarkably 218 00:11:50,680 --> 00:11:55,080 hard to get through traditional peer reviewed journals, because that's hard 219 00:11:55,200 --> 00:11:58,680 to find somebody who has the expertise, who can comment on it. 220 00:11:58,880 --> 00:12:02,000 And if you get people from one side, maybe more from the politics 221 00:12:02,200 --> 00:12:04,920 they often find, maybe there's too much neuro in the paper. 222 00:12:04,920 --> 00:12:07,320 If you get somebody from the cognitive neuroscience side, 223 00:12:07,320 --> 00:12:10,440 they'd be like, all would be expecting much more coverage of the- 224 00:12:10,440 --> 00:12:14,280 of the- the underlying story and the- the analysis here. 225 00:12:14,280 --> 00:12:18,680 So I've kind of resigned myself now over the years that- that possibly 226 00:12:18,680 --> 00:12:23,520 my place is just to kind of take that tough turn and hopefully it's 227 00:12:23,520 --> 00:12:26,520 just a bit easier for the next set that come along behind you.- 228 00:12:26,680 --> 00:12:28,640 [Enda:] In many respects, an incredibly brave thing 229 00:12:28,640 --> 00:12:32,560 to do, retraining, exploring, you know a whole new area, 230 00:12:32,640 --> 00:12:35,640 which itself is developing very fast, obviously cognitive neuroscience, 231 00:12:36,200 --> 00:12:40,040 that there is an inherent risk in doing that- [Laura:] For sure.- 232 00:12:40,400 --> 00:12:42,600 [Enda:] I'm sure you felt that at the time?- [Laura: For sure. 233 00:12:42,600 --> 00:12:44,600 But on the other side, I guess 234 00:12:44,600 --> 00:12:48,000 right from the very beginning where we said, you know, for me, education 235 00:12:48,000 --> 00:12:52,360 education is all about curiosity and pushing your boundaries and I think 236 00:12:52,360 --> 00:12:57,080 the best part of being an academic is the ability to reinvent yourself. 237 00:12:57,120 --> 00:13:00,720 For me, it was probably less brief than just a necessity. 238 00:13:00,960 --> 00:13:04,360 I don't think I could just keep going in the same route. 239 00:13:04,360 --> 00:13:09,000 And I, I really admire people who can and you can find new angles on things 240 00:13:09,000 --> 00:13:10,200 that they are interested in. 241 00:13:10,200 --> 00:13:11,760 And can you tell us a little bit 242 00:13:11,760 --> 00:13:15,520 about the new your Politics research lab that you direct at the Futures Institute? 243 00:13:15,680 --> 00:13:17,720 What does the lab do on a daily basis? 244 00:13:17,720 --> 00:13:21,520 I mean, that's shaped very much on the daily basis, depending on what projects 245 00:13:21,520 --> 00:13:22,520 we're running on. 246 00:13:22,520 --> 00:13:25,640 And you know, how many postdocs we have at any given time. 247 00:13:26,000 --> 00:13:28,760 We have people who are already based 248 00:13:28,760 --> 00:13:32,160 at Edinburgh University who've been with us for, about ten years. 249 00:13:32,160 --> 00:13:37,120 So Claire Llewellyn, who originally came from Informatics, but now is employed 250 00:13:37,120 --> 00:13:40,200 by Social and Political Sciences and the Edinburgh Futures Institute. 251 00:13:40,200 --> 00:13:44,400 So that's a quite an interesting, kind of process where actually 252 00:13:44,400 --> 00:13:48,240 institutionally, it begins to see the, the pattern of recruitment 253 00:13:48,520 --> 00:13:51,200 and we actually get genuinely interdisciplinary posts. 254 00:13:51,200 --> 00:13:53,800 And that that I think is, is an interesting outcome. 255 00:13:53,800 --> 00:13:54,560 Robyn Hill, 256 00:13:54,560 --> 00:13:58,640 who is still based in informatics but has worked really closely with us. 257 00:13:58,800 --> 00:14:01,800 We work very, very closely with Adam Moura from psychology. 258 00:14:01,800 --> 00:14:05,560 So we've always worked across, the disciplines, and then we have 259 00:14:06,320 --> 00:14:06,920 postdocs. 260 00:14:06,920 --> 00:14:12,600 At the moment we have cost associated suppliers Luke Stevens and Sarah Dale job, 261 00:14:13,080 --> 00:14:16,480 all with very different, backgrounds because we need those, 262 00:14:16,800 --> 00:14:21,040 different backgrounds looking at things like large language models, biometric 263 00:14:21,040 --> 00:14:24,640 testing and, large survey experiments 264 00:14:25,080 --> 00:14:28,440 and on a daily basis, you know, if you just come in, we have people 265 00:14:28,440 --> 00:14:31,560 either running experiments or analyzing experiments. 266 00:14:32,640 --> 00:14:34,160 They're all setting up this morning 267 00:14:34,160 --> 00:14:37,440 for a really nice journal club that one of our postdocs is organizing. 268 00:14:37,520 --> 00:14:41,520 Because, again, what if I, if I had to summarize something about the lab 269 00:14:41,800 --> 00:14:46,080 is it's really about developing, a shared language. 270 00:14:46,680 --> 00:14:49,200 So what we recognize is, is that each of us 271 00:14:49,200 --> 00:14:53,160 comes from each of our disciplines, and we don't even use exactly the same terms 272 00:14:53,360 --> 00:14:56,640 for what are ostensibly the same things. 273 00:14:57,480 --> 00:14:59,880 And it's very easy for people to talk past each other. 274 00:14:59,880 --> 00:15:03,720 So what we consider sort of really praying for all of us 275 00:15:03,920 --> 00:15:05,680 is to have that communication environment. 276 00:15:05,680 --> 00:15:06,760 So we're probably quite unusual. 277 00:15:06,760 --> 00:15:11,520 People are in the lab more than than maybe people often order as a postdoc. 278 00:15:11,640 --> 00:15:14,680 But part of that is to have that conversation between people 279 00:15:14,680 --> 00:15:17,120 so that if somebody is working maybe on something biometric, 280 00:15:17,120 --> 00:15:19,960 somebody else is working on something that's a survey experiment. 281 00:15:19,960 --> 00:15:22,760 They can actually see the crossovers and the links 282 00:15:22,760 --> 00:15:26,400 and advise each other on techniques and and ideas. 283 00:15:26,560 --> 00:15:28,680 We've done a number of, fMRI. 284 00:15:28,680 --> 00:15:31,200 So it's functional magnetic resonance image studies. 285 00:15:31,200 --> 00:15:35,280 And we're really privileged here to have at Edinburgh University. 286 00:15:36,800 --> 00:15:39,920 Brain imaging, Edinburgh imaging. 287 00:15:40,560 --> 00:15:43,960 And they have the facilities out at the hospital, 288 00:15:44,360 --> 00:15:47,280 where we can do volunteer, research. 289 00:15:47,280 --> 00:15:50,760 And we've worked closely with different people as they are over the years. 290 00:15:50,760 --> 00:15:54,400 Obviously, fMRI for us is the the more expensive end of our life. 291 00:15:54,480 --> 00:15:57,480 So so we tend to we often talk about it like a tunnel, 292 00:15:57,960 --> 00:16:00,960 like a funnel, rather, where we start out wide. 293 00:16:01,280 --> 00:16:05,760 People like, like clear, might work on social computational analysis. 294 00:16:05,760 --> 00:16:09,320 So maybe finding what mechanisms we think are at play 295 00:16:09,600 --> 00:16:13,320 and then bringing it down a little level, maybe doing a behavioral experiment, 296 00:16:13,320 --> 00:16:16,160 our survey experiment lab, to see if those mechanisms 297 00:16:16,160 --> 00:16:18,080 are the mechanisms that we think are happening. 298 00:16:18,080 --> 00:16:21,120 And then once we really come down to where we think something 299 00:16:21,240 --> 00:16:25,640 might be happening in the brain, then we might take it into an fMRI study. 300 00:16:26,480 --> 00:16:29,760 We in terms of neurophysiological studies, though, 301 00:16:30,280 --> 00:16:33,640 we also do, use, an emotion suite, 302 00:16:33,640 --> 00:16:37,640 which is a biometric set of measures that lets us measure things like, 303 00:16:38,880 --> 00:16:39,720 heart rate, 304 00:16:39,720 --> 00:16:42,960 skin conductance, to look at eye tracking, 305 00:16:44,000 --> 00:16:48,000 and in fact, we have just got, an electroencephalography, 306 00:16:48,720 --> 00:16:51,720 set, which we haven't used yet, but we will soon. 307 00:16:52,200 --> 00:16:55,520 And that will allow us to do some of the actual brain imaging in lab 308 00:16:55,680 --> 00:16:59,640 before we maybe go out and spend more money on an MRI, for example. 309 00:16:59,640 --> 00:17:02,640 In this case, we are looking at how your identity 310 00:17:03,040 --> 00:17:06,040 affects your perception of exclusion. 311 00:17:06,320 --> 00:17:10,440 So we'll look for something that's a very well normed, protocol. 312 00:17:10,440 --> 00:17:12,160 So there's something called the Cyber Bowl 313 00:17:12,160 --> 00:17:14,280 where it's almost like a bowl playing game. 314 00:17:14,280 --> 00:17:15,600 It's like a bowl playing game. 315 00:17:15,600 --> 00:17:20,960 And, you are either included or excluded, by a partner. 316 00:17:21,440 --> 00:17:25,000 And in the case of the experiment that we did, your partner, 317 00:17:25,000 --> 00:17:26,480 you know, their identity. 318 00:17:26,480 --> 00:17:31,440 And so we will look at how you respond 319 00:17:31,440 --> 00:17:35,480 in your brain when you are included or excluded by a partner 320 00:17:35,480 --> 00:17:40,520 of a particular identity group, and then see if there are any differences. 321 00:17:40,800 --> 00:17:43,560 And on the, you know, the spoiler. 322 00:17:43,560 --> 00:17:44,800 That one is. Yes. That are 323 00:17:45,880 --> 00:17:47,240 that it 324 00:17:47,240 --> 00:17:49,480 that we tend to actually think of ourselves 325 00:17:49,480 --> 00:17:54,040 as more excluded by somebody who's not from our identity group. 326 00:17:54,040 --> 00:17:58,080 And, and in this particular study, we found that their, their, percept 327 00:17:58,360 --> 00:18:02,880 of being included and excluded, were more similar between the control group 328 00:18:02,880 --> 00:18:06,800 and the other identity than they were with their own identity group. 329 00:18:06,960 --> 00:18:10,320 So they thought they were they were more excluded by the other identity group. 330 00:18:10,680 --> 00:18:13,920 But, we actually no, they were not. 331 00:18:13,920 --> 00:18:17,160 There was no difference in the exclusion because we set the exclusion rate. 332 00:18:17,160 --> 00:18:19,280 So we know that objectively, it's the same, but our, 333 00:18:19,280 --> 00:18:22,280 our identities actually give us a different perception of that. 334 00:18:22,560 --> 00:18:27,280 What would you see as being the, the, the, you know, the takeaway for the, 335 00:18:27,280 --> 00:18:30,280 for the field of, of politics, from, from using 336 00:18:30,440 --> 00:18:34,680 cognitive neuroscience to help explain issues of identity and belonging. 337 00:18:34,680 --> 00:18:37,320 Yeah. So I think the first thing is always proceed with caution. 338 00:18:37,320 --> 00:18:40,360 Remember a lot of these, studies will we will be talking about a very, 339 00:18:40,360 --> 00:18:42,760 very small sample size. We are just beginning to, 340 00:18:43,920 --> 00:18:45,040 chip away 341 00:18:45,040 --> 00:18:48,600 at some, some ideas, maybe give some alternative lenses. 342 00:18:48,960 --> 00:18:50,160 And I think that's really important. 343 00:18:50,160 --> 00:18:52,000 So, yeah, in terms of simply taking that away 344 00:18:52,000 --> 00:18:55,000 and thinking you can manipulate people, you up to be really, 345 00:18:55,040 --> 00:18:58,040 I probably wouldn't be as confident that you could could quite do that. 346 00:18:58,320 --> 00:19:03,600 However, I think it does help to, to give us some means in a really nicely 347 00:19:03,600 --> 00:19:07,440 triangulated environment, which we should all be doing is good scientists, 348 00:19:07,680 --> 00:19:08,080 obviously. 349 00:19:08,080 --> 00:19:10,800 Well, perhaps it is a different understanding 350 00:19:10,800 --> 00:19:14,040 of what is the mechanism that has been driving something and a 351 00:19:14,120 --> 00:19:17,360 from for me that, that, that is, that is the really, 352 00:19:18,560 --> 00:19:19,520 important insight. 353 00:19:19,520 --> 00:19:22,640 And if it begins to help us to see, well, 354 00:19:23,160 --> 00:19:27,040 when you behave in this particular way as a politician voter, 355 00:19:27,240 --> 00:19:32,680 then these are the types of information processes that are taking place. 356 00:19:33,600 --> 00:19:35,880 Then it might help us to understand a little bit 357 00:19:35,880 --> 00:19:39,840 about why some things backfire or why some kind of intervention. 358 00:19:39,840 --> 00:19:42,840 So for example, there's been a lot on our misinterpreted 359 00:19:42,920 --> 00:19:45,880 misinformation interventions and actually found there's 360 00:19:45,880 --> 00:19:48,960 been quite a lot of backlashes to those misinformation intervention. 361 00:19:49,800 --> 00:19:53,080 And sometimes understanding how that information has actually been processed 362 00:19:53,080 --> 00:19:56,200 and how identity and identity triggers can affect that, 363 00:19:56,800 --> 00:19:58,480 might help us to get a better understanding 364 00:19:58,480 --> 00:20:03,160 of how you could make a more effective and to misinformation intervention. 365 00:20:03,160 --> 00:20:04,800 That's an interesting tongue twister that 366 00:20:05,760 --> 00:20:08,400 you've you've shifted this very nicely along to, 367 00:20:08,400 --> 00:20:12,200 I guess, the practical consequences or the practical findings, eg, 368 00:20:12,520 --> 00:20:15,720 Liberal democracies across the West are facing all sorts of challenges, 369 00:20:16,080 --> 00:20:20,480 whether it's the rise of far right or people feeling disenfranchized. 370 00:20:20,680 --> 00:20:26,400 Where would you see your politics addressing these existential issues? 371 00:20:26,400 --> 00:20:28,800 I guess for for liberal democracies? 372 00:20:28,800 --> 00:20:32,160 Yeah, I think I mean, I think particularly the kind of work on, 373 00:20:32,520 --> 00:20:36,280 the identitarian approaches, the, the, the provoking acts. 374 00:20:36,320 --> 00:20:39,360 I'm about to give the Shapiro lecture on government and opposition. 375 00:20:39,360 --> 00:20:40,960 And so that's very high in my head. 376 00:20:40,960 --> 00:20:42,600 I'm going to give some spoilers on that. 377 00:20:42,600 --> 00:20:48,080 But but yeah, basically that question almost our positioning always of things 378 00:20:48,080 --> 00:20:52,080 in adversarial formats of government in opposition in itself, 379 00:20:52,080 --> 00:20:56,040 immediately puts six people up into two group scenarios. 380 00:20:56,400 --> 00:20:59,400 And we know, from many, many studies 381 00:20:59,400 --> 00:21:02,440 that very often more effective policymaking 382 00:21:02,600 --> 00:21:06,600 takes place in quite a functional, quite a sort of law, politics environment. 383 00:21:06,600 --> 00:21:08,360 And what we haven't always known 384 00:21:08,360 --> 00:21:11,360 are what other mechanisms that explain why that works. 385 00:21:11,400 --> 00:21:15,080 One of the key issues, I think democracy is faces is trust. 386 00:21:15,080 --> 00:21:15,920 And I'm wondering, 387 00:21:15,920 --> 00:21:20,080 can you read politics to tell us about trust in political systems? 388 00:21:20,080 --> 00:21:24,000 Have political parties, political leaders, around the world? 389 00:21:24,000 --> 00:21:25,000 Is this an area? 390 00:21:25,000 --> 00:21:25,320 Yeah. 391 00:21:25,320 --> 00:21:28,320 I mean, again, I mean, one of the, the, the studies that we did 392 00:21:28,320 --> 00:21:31,320 a couple of years ago was looking at trust in information, 393 00:21:31,840 --> 00:21:36,240 and the way that we process trusted and, and non trusted information in the brain, 394 00:21:37,240 --> 00:21:39,400 whether that makes us feel more positive 395 00:21:39,400 --> 00:21:42,200 or more negative about the information that we're achieving. 396 00:21:42,200 --> 00:21:46,600 And again, we were looking very much at how identity, fits into those processes. 397 00:21:46,600 --> 00:21:49,600 So I think in that very, similar vein, 398 00:21:50,480 --> 00:21:53,040 again, you're talking about small sample studies. 399 00:21:53,040 --> 00:21:55,920 You're just beginning to maybe shine a light on some of the mechanisms. 400 00:21:55,920 --> 00:21:59,320 But what you're also seeing is across the studies of social 401 00:21:59,320 --> 00:22:01,800 and effective neuroscience and of cognitive neuroscience, 402 00:22:01,800 --> 00:22:04,800 you're seeing multiple studies across all these wonderful labs. 403 00:22:04,960 --> 00:22:06,600 There's talk about a many, many more. 404 00:22:06,600 --> 00:22:11,240 And as you get more and more of them, you have more meta analyzes possible. 405 00:22:11,240 --> 00:22:14,360 And then these small studies aren't just small studies on their own, 406 00:22:14,360 --> 00:22:17,360 but you're beginning to get, wonderful, 407 00:22:17,440 --> 00:22:20,760 banks of information that highlight which parts of the brain 408 00:22:20,760 --> 00:22:23,560 seem to be associated with particular activities. 409 00:22:23,560 --> 00:22:24,480 And the more we see 410 00:22:24,480 --> 00:22:28,200 these as a source of metastases and then the more useful it becomes. 411 00:22:28,200 --> 00:22:30,480 So yeah, I think everything that you're doing 412 00:22:30,480 --> 00:22:34,560 is just a little drop towards it, but I often think of it as a bit more, 413 00:22:35,160 --> 00:22:38,880 like maybe being a chemist, you know, if you, if you drop one, 414 00:22:39,600 --> 00:22:43,160 or two drops of solution into something and it doesn't work, 415 00:22:43,160 --> 00:22:45,440 you're not necessarily going to throw the whole experiment out. 416 00:22:45,440 --> 00:22:47,880 It might be 93, or it might be if you did one and a half 417 00:22:47,880 --> 00:22:50,360 and I think that that's some of what you have to look at. 418 00:22:50,360 --> 00:22:52,040 You're looking at around very, 419 00:22:53,880 --> 00:22:55,480 very much a moving target. 420 00:22:55,480 --> 00:22:56,920 You know, our understanding of the brain 421 00:22:56,920 --> 00:23:00,640 is developing every day, our understanding of the analytical models and, 422 00:23:00,840 --> 00:23:04,640 and simply the software to use to analyze the brain is changing 423 00:23:04,640 --> 00:23:06,840 and updating all the time as people learn about it. 424 00:23:06,840 --> 00:23:09,960 So it may be very well that you did a perfectly, 425 00:23:11,400 --> 00:23:15,040 appropriate and well managed study from the five, ten years ago. 426 00:23:15,040 --> 00:23:19,000 But then really now the results wouldn't stand up because our understandings of to. 427 00:23:19,000 --> 00:23:22,400 So yeah, also have to accept that and acknowledge that one thing 428 00:23:22,400 --> 00:23:25,520 that's changed over the last 30 years or so is social media 429 00:23:25,520 --> 00:23:28,800 and the use of social media particularly, and monitoring 430 00:23:28,800 --> 00:23:31,800 and expressing political views. 431 00:23:32,240 --> 00:23:36,280 How do you see the relationship between what people say online, 432 00:23:36,280 --> 00:23:39,560 what people do online, the whole notion of echo chambers, 433 00:23:39,560 --> 00:23:42,680 that people are basically ending up talking to 434 00:23:43,320 --> 00:23:45,920 people that they largely agree with, rather than people 435 00:23:45,920 --> 00:23:47,520 that they might have disagreement. 436 00:23:47,520 --> 00:23:49,760 How is social media changed the way in which, 437 00:23:50,840 --> 00:23:52,560 neuro, sense 438 00:23:52,560 --> 00:23:56,320 of the the political world around us, develops? 439 00:23:56,320 --> 00:23:58,920 Yeah. I mean, there's a lot of great studies on that in our lab. 440 00:23:58,920 --> 00:24:01,480 And Claire Llewellyn is really a social media expert. 441 00:24:01,480 --> 00:24:04,480 Of course, it's a really challenging environment to work in just now, 442 00:24:05,400 --> 00:24:07,400 Twitter ex was, 443 00:24:07,400 --> 00:24:11,040 an amazing resource for academics and the limitations on on that. 444 00:24:11,040 --> 00:24:14,800 I've changed a lot of, of the ability to do longitudinal studies, 445 00:24:14,800 --> 00:24:17,800 which I think are particularly interesting in that, 446 00:24:18,480 --> 00:24:19,200 field. 447 00:24:19,200 --> 00:24:24,200 But, one thing I think that remains and, and I really do hope we get, 448 00:24:24,200 --> 00:24:27,840 we get back that ability to use that range of, of, 449 00:24:28,240 --> 00:24:32,480 social media sources is I think it's very interesting to observe, 450 00:24:33,240 --> 00:24:36,240 spontaneous conversation from people 451 00:24:36,240 --> 00:24:39,600 rather than sort of top down questions that we might offer in surveys 452 00:24:39,880 --> 00:24:43,040 and, and know there is fabulous research done on the way 453 00:24:43,040 --> 00:24:46,680 in which things that carry like moral outrage, move, 454 00:24:47,640 --> 00:24:50,640 at a different, rate around, 455 00:24:51,240 --> 00:24:51,800 the world. 456 00:24:51,800 --> 00:24:55,440 So, I, I think we have to look at it in a number of ways. 457 00:24:55,440 --> 00:24:59,080 I think there are some challenges, to the notion of the echo chamber. 458 00:25:00,000 --> 00:25:03,280 In the sense that, you know, if you remember, when we all just 459 00:25:03,280 --> 00:25:06,560 used to buy our one newspaper, we were very much in our equity. 460 00:25:06,760 --> 00:25:09,760 We only read, you know, if you were a Guardian reader, 461 00:25:09,760 --> 00:25:12,760 you were definitely not a telegraph reader and never the twain. 462 00:25:13,040 --> 00:25:15,560 So in fact, you probably do get exposed to more things. 463 00:25:15,560 --> 00:25:17,000 And again, there's been quite a lot of studies 464 00:25:17,000 --> 00:25:20,280 on that Christian faculty here, does a lot of work on, 465 00:25:21,000 --> 00:25:24,160 the social media and, ecosystem as well. 466 00:25:24,160 --> 00:25:29,360 But, we may be a bit more exposed, a bit more than we think in that ecosystem. 467 00:25:29,520 --> 00:25:32,520 Could you tell us a little bit about the work that you've done? 468 00:25:32,560 --> 00:25:36,160 The, the sort of neuro politics of the politics of identity, 469 00:25:36,160 --> 00:25:37,320 for want of a better phrase? 470 00:25:37,320 --> 00:25:37,560 Yeah. 471 00:25:37,560 --> 00:25:41,400 So, that really, so, for example, the story that I told you about the PSI 472 00:25:41,400 --> 00:25:44,720 football experiment is, is one of the parts of these stories. 473 00:25:44,720 --> 00:25:47,760 And I guess the starting point for that is really, 474 00:25:48,720 --> 00:25:49,800 an understanding that 475 00:25:49,800 --> 00:25:53,880 whether or not and there are that are disputed positions on this. 476 00:25:53,880 --> 00:25:58,080 So whether or not we basically, are born 477 00:25:58,080 --> 00:26:01,240 social on the spot, alien man's political animal, 478 00:26:02,160 --> 00:26:04,360 or whether we become 479 00:26:04,360 --> 00:26:07,360 social people like Catalina for tapas to talk about, 480 00:26:07,560 --> 00:26:10,720 how we become social through our early nurturing. 481 00:26:11,640 --> 00:26:14,400 But one way or another, as human beings, we don't survive 482 00:26:14,400 --> 00:26:17,400 without others, and certainly not in our, our early lives. 483 00:26:18,120 --> 00:26:21,360 So I think, one of the things that I find 484 00:26:22,000 --> 00:26:25,800 most compelling when you come back to the study of identity from a neuro 485 00:26:25,800 --> 00:26:30,200 political perspective, is I came to it because I found that there were 486 00:26:30,200 --> 00:26:32,320 it was a bit like ships that pass in the night 487 00:26:32,320 --> 00:26:34,640 when you talked about European identity, the beside the those 488 00:26:34,640 --> 00:26:37,880 who thought it was highly rational and it was in the cost benefit, 489 00:26:38,920 --> 00:26:41,760 and I would identify with you or I wouldn't 490 00:26:41,760 --> 00:26:43,920 and there were others who thought it was a much more emotional, 491 00:26:43,920 --> 00:26:47,600 sentimental attachment and actually, what I think you get out of the kind of 492 00:26:47,840 --> 00:26:51,720 political approach is that it's very rational to be social 493 00:26:52,360 --> 00:26:55,360 and that these, these, shape one another. 494 00:26:55,360 --> 00:26:58,360 And when you start to understand that that's really 495 00:26:58,360 --> 00:27:01,200 that is a real shifting point. 496 00:27:01,200 --> 00:27:04,320 So it's not either rational cost benefit 497 00:27:04,320 --> 00:27:07,320 analysis or affective emotional social. 498 00:27:07,560 --> 00:27:10,200 How we rationalize is affected 499 00:27:10,200 --> 00:27:13,200 by our emotional, physiological 500 00:27:14,240 --> 00:27:17,840 and the context and environment around us 501 00:27:17,840 --> 00:27:22,080 shape our physiological and our emotional responses. 502 00:27:22,080 --> 00:27:23,880 And that affects our ability 503 00:27:23,880 --> 00:27:28,200 to make rational decisions and to to perform executive function. 504 00:27:28,200 --> 00:27:32,120 So I find actually that understanding of the feedback 505 00:27:32,320 --> 00:27:36,000 and the interaction between the two is probably the biggest contribution that. 506 00:27:36,520 --> 00:27:39,880 Have you had much interest from political parties, think tanks, 507 00:27:40,440 --> 00:27:43,720 what you might call the sort of mechanisms of of the political system 508 00:27:44,240 --> 00:27:45,560 in the in the work you do. 509 00:27:45,560 --> 00:27:48,560 I could see why why they might be interested in it. 510 00:27:48,760 --> 00:27:49,200 Yeah. 511 00:27:49,200 --> 00:27:53,200 I mean, we've talked to various people, not sure so much political parties. 512 00:27:53,200 --> 00:27:55,440 All I can see why they might be interested. 513 00:27:55,440 --> 00:27:58,880 We have worked a lot with, different institutions. 514 00:27:59,640 --> 00:28:02,360 So, for example, part of the, 515 00:28:02,360 --> 00:28:05,760 the European Commission's Joint Research Council, did a study 516 00:28:05,760 --> 00:28:10,600 on understanding our political nature and how that might help them 517 00:28:10,600 --> 00:28:12,080 to inform their policymakers. 518 00:28:13,120 --> 00:28:14,040 And, they 519 00:28:14,040 --> 00:28:17,880 had, people from a variety of different, different disciplines. 520 00:28:17,880 --> 00:28:19,840 I was part of the 521 00:28:19,840 --> 00:28:22,360 neuroscience group there. 522 00:28:22,360 --> 00:28:27,040 Stefano Palminteri led that, and my psychiatrist was part of it. 523 00:28:27,040 --> 00:28:30,480 Lou Safra runs, and really, 524 00:28:31,040 --> 00:28:35,280 again, a really nice example of people putting together 525 00:28:35,280 --> 00:28:39,840 these different understandings from different disciplines 526 00:28:39,840 --> 00:28:43,680 and bringing to the question of how might an EU policymaker 527 00:28:43,920 --> 00:28:47,680 actually make better policy if they understood some of this? 528 00:28:47,680 --> 00:28:50,680 And that was a really interesting project to be part of. 529 00:28:50,960 --> 00:28:53,400 We're here at the Edinburgh Futures Institute. 530 00:28:53,400 --> 00:28:56,640 What sort of future do you envisage, given your expertise 531 00:28:56,640 --> 00:28:59,560 and the wonderful work that you've told us about? 532 00:28:59,560 --> 00:29:02,600 Yeah, I mean, it's hard, you know, when times when resources 533 00:29:02,600 --> 00:29:05,600 are constrained and generally and, and 534 00:29:06,080 --> 00:29:09,080 and times are hard, we know that 535 00:29:09,120 --> 00:29:12,480 that can make it, difficult for people to, 536 00:29:13,280 --> 00:29:16,560 look for a road to look up optimistically. 537 00:29:17,320 --> 00:29:20,320 My hope, my sincere hope is that our, 538 00:29:20,360 --> 00:29:23,920 our focus comes on how we can do 539 00:29:23,920 --> 00:29:26,920 better, how we can, 540 00:29:27,120 --> 00:29:32,280 use the knowledge that we have about the way that brain, 541 00:29:32,280 --> 00:29:37,040 mind and body interact with one another to understand 542 00:29:37,440 --> 00:29:41,160 better how the policies that we make impact on people, 543 00:29:41,600 --> 00:29:45,840 and how that in turn affects how they behave as political citizens. 544 00:29:46,080 --> 00:29:48,440 And I think sometimes we lose that connection. 545 00:29:48,440 --> 00:29:51,520 So often you'll hear people walking around just nice, and all 546 00:29:51,520 --> 00:29:55,000 this is broken and that is broken and that that brings a lot of despair. 547 00:29:55,000 --> 00:29:59,360 But it also often brings with it, a lot of sense of impotence, 548 00:30:01,000 --> 00:30:01,480 lack of 549 00:30:01,480 --> 00:30:04,560 efficacy and an inability to fix things. 550 00:30:05,520 --> 00:30:08,160 And, my hope 551 00:30:08,160 --> 00:30:11,480 for future research is that we actually start right there. 552 00:30:11,640 --> 00:30:14,320 How do we make people feel more efficacious? 553 00:30:14,320 --> 00:30:18,160 More like their contribution in the system can make a difference. 554 00:30:19,240 --> 00:30:22,240 Make it so that, when, 555 00:30:22,920 --> 00:30:26,160 a system needs fixing, 556 00:30:26,640 --> 00:30:29,640 they feel like they might have a voice in the fixing, 557 00:30:30,400 --> 00:30:33,720 and that they are, the policies that affect them. 558 00:30:33,720 --> 00:30:34,600 They're not just passive 559 00:30:34,600 --> 00:30:38,280 recipients of these policies, but that they actually have a role to play. 560 00:30:38,400 --> 00:30:39,360 Well, thank you very much for 561 00:30:39,360 --> 00:30:42,040 for taking the time to tell us about your own fascinating work. 562 00:30:42,040 --> 00:30:47,320 The work of the newer Politics Research Lab at the Edinburgh Futures Institute. 563 00:30:47,360 --> 00:30:48,680 Oh, thanks very much for having me.