WEBVTT NOTE This file was generated by Descript 00:00:41.642 --> 00:00:44.032 Sam: Welcome to another episode of Unashamed Unafraid. 00:00:44.272 --> 00:00:46.512 We are unashamed of sexual addiction recovery and unafraid 00:00:46.512 --> 00:00:48.282 of coming unto Christ for healing. 00:00:48.982 --> 00:00:50.332 Mason, let's check in man. 00:00:50.412 --> 00:00:51.182 How's recovery going? 00:00:51.882 --> 00:00:55.052 Dude, it's, it's difficult, but it's good. 00:00:55.502 --> 00:01:02.152 I feel like I'm, right now, I'm in a, in a spot where I'm just 00:01:02.152 --> 00:01:07.292 really deconstructing a lot of stuff in my life that was built up. 00:01:07.342 --> 00:01:09.052 My therapist, Jason, right? 00:01:09.082 --> 00:01:09.762 Shout out Jason. 00:01:10.462 --> 00:01:14.102 He calls like, there's a lot of names for names for it, but the fault self, I 00:01:14.232 --> 00:01:17.602 just feel like I'm having to deconstruct all this stuff, the ego, right. 00:01:18.052 --> 00:01:22.112 That has built up these things, shame, different beliefs. 00:01:22.142 --> 00:01:23.852 And I I'm spending a lot of time. 00:01:24.252 --> 00:01:25.472 deconstructing this. 00:01:26.342 --> 00:01:29.322 So it's just this, it kind of feels like constant battle right now. 00:01:29.782 --> 00:01:33.382 , You said the other day when we were on the phone, like, I don't know, man, I 00:01:33.382 --> 00:01:34.922 don't even know where I'm at in recovery. 00:01:34.922 --> 00:01:37.642 It just feels like it's this constant, just like learning, 00:01:37.642 --> 00:01:40.177 growing, overwhelm, pushing. 00:01:40.877 --> 00:01:41.487 That's a lot, man. 00:01:41.807 --> 00:01:45.567 Yeah, there's a lot of, there's a lot of unlearning to learn a new way. 00:01:45.607 --> 00:01:46.117 Yeah, well said. 00:01:46.117 --> 00:01:51.307 And part of that is really just learning what my recovery looks like, so. 00:01:51.717 --> 00:01:55.137 Yeah, and it's hard because I've had this experience a million times in recovery, 00:01:55.137 --> 00:01:56.717 but a fish doesn't know it's in water. 00:01:57.187 --> 00:02:00.387 So when you realize you're in water for the first time, suddenly 00:02:00.897 --> 00:02:02.077 everything is in question. 00:02:02.777 --> 00:02:03.127 Yeah. 00:02:03.527 --> 00:02:06.947 Yeah, especially when you were like in fire for your whole life, you know, 00:02:07.647 --> 00:02:10.907 I'll check in to I actually relapsed last night and I'm a dude I'm struggling. 00:02:11.027 --> 00:02:11.917 I'm struggling with it. 00:02:11.917 --> 00:02:17.097 I'm going you know Weeks months actually we're kind of at that point 00:02:17.097 --> 00:02:22.572 where I can get over a month in between relapses, but When I do, it's just hard. 00:02:22.572 --> 00:02:23.542 It's super hard. 00:02:23.642 --> 00:02:27.802 Um, it really impacted my wife last night and I didn't, I didn't wait. 00:02:27.802 --> 00:02:29.572 I mean, I told her like 30 minutes later. 00:02:29.572 --> 00:02:31.302 I just was not going to carry that shame. 00:02:31.332 --> 00:02:32.802 I was ready to be accountable, but 00:02:32.822 --> 00:02:33.182 sure. 00:02:33.882 --> 00:02:34.862 That's why we do this. 00:02:35.562 --> 00:02:35.832 Yeah. 00:02:35.832 --> 00:02:36.009 That's 00:02:36.009 --> 00:02:37.062 why we do this. 00:02:37.212 --> 00:02:37.352 Yeah. 00:02:37.352 --> 00:02:38.812 We talked a lot last night. 00:02:38.822 --> 00:02:40.792 A lot of, a lot of shame to unpack there. 00:02:40.842 --> 00:02:41.072 Yeah. 00:02:41.072 --> 00:02:41.312 So 00:02:41.362 --> 00:02:42.852 there's a lot of shame to unpack there. 00:02:42.902 --> 00:02:43.172 Yeah. 00:02:43.872 --> 00:02:48.012 One thing for the audience before we start is We have not raised all of 00:02:48.012 --> 00:02:51.092 our scholarship money for the year So if you're out there in podcast land 00:02:51.362 --> 00:02:54.362 There's a lot of good that we can do with these scholarships and we typically 00:02:54.362 --> 00:03:01.022 scholarship I don't know we we do over 1213 scholarships every single year to 00:03:01.022 --> 00:03:07.172 send men and women to warrior heart glory retreat and heart of a woman They're, in 00:03:07.172 --> 00:03:09.202 my opinion, a top five life experience. 00:03:09.202 --> 00:03:10.802 Warrior Heart changed my recovery. 00:03:11.252 --> 00:03:14.722 Become an outsider donate maybe just five bucks a month That's gonna help 00:03:14.722 --> 00:03:19.452 us a ton to reach our goal of sending more men and women on scholarship to 00:03:19.452 --> 00:03:23.242 those retreats you can head over to unashamed unafraid calm forward slash 00:03:23.302 --> 00:03:28.142 donate We have a really really cool episode today We don't actually do this 00:03:28.142 --> 00:03:30.852 very often But we invited a guest back. 00:03:31.052 --> 00:03:32.352 She was so good. 00:03:32.572 --> 00:03:36.242 We had to have her on twice and she hates that I'm, that I'm 00:03:36.242 --> 00:03:37.482 building her up like this right now. 00:03:38.182 --> 00:03:43.972 Roxanna Johnson, who you may remember several months ago, we posted an episode 00:03:44.242 --> 00:03:48.862 on betrayal trauma and she talked a little bit about the ideas in her book 00:03:49.112 --> 00:03:53.272 surrounding wives who are forgotten in the battle of sexual addiction. 00:03:53.272 --> 00:03:55.067 And And that is the title of her book. 00:03:55.337 --> 00:03:58.607 Forgotten In The Battle of Sexual Addiction by Roxanna Johnson. 00:03:58.697 --> 00:03:59.087 Roxy: Yeah. 00:03:59.687 --> 00:04:02.477 And it, and it also has the journey of a, of a spouse. 00:04:02.477 --> 00:04:04.097 'cause there's a lot of my story in it. 00:04:04.097 --> 00:04:04.547 Speaker: Yes. 00:04:04.547 --> 00:04:04.877 Yeah. 00:04:04.877 --> 00:04:08.507 And, and that's what's, as I, as I read through, I haven't read the whole 00:04:08.507 --> 00:04:11.192 book, but I've read certain little, little chapters here and there. 00:04:11.192 --> 00:04:14.417 I just, boy, the authenticity was beautiful. 00:04:14.767 --> 00:04:17.167 You said things in a way that I don't hear very often. 00:04:17.647 --> 00:04:19.687 Roxy: I tried to be vulnerable. 00:04:20.387 --> 00:04:25.817 Because there's so few resources like that, and I wanted to walk with 00:04:25.837 --> 00:04:31.097 each person that read it through the process and show them that it's an 00:04:31.107 --> 00:04:35.527 up and down process and that, , it can be hard, but it's worth it. 00:04:35.807 --> 00:04:42.947 So as I listened to you, you to check in, , I am always struck by 00:04:42.957 --> 00:04:50.027 the parallels between, the person who struggles with compulsive behaviors 00:04:50.417 --> 00:04:52.137 and the person who loves them. 00:04:52.457 --> 00:04:58.717 Their, their paths of recovery and healing parallel each other a lot. 00:04:58.797 --> 00:05:05.057 And, , the beauty is, is that when both partners can understand that, 00:05:05.607 --> 00:05:11.457 they can start helping each other live the principles of recovery, in 00:05:11.457 --> 00:05:15.547 love rather than in fear and anger. 00:05:15.897 --> 00:05:19.717 And my husband and I did both. 00:05:19.957 --> 00:05:22.517 So it's, it's not like it comes naturally. 00:05:22.837 --> 00:05:23.597 You have to work at it. 00:05:23.917 --> 00:05:24.367 Speaker: Right. 00:05:25.067 --> 00:05:29.257 One thing that I just have really enjoyed in working with you is, is 00:05:29.277 --> 00:05:30.367 what you just talked about, right? 00:05:30.367 --> 00:05:36.527 Just the, the ability to just find, find the beauty in that journey, right? 00:05:36.877 --> 00:05:39.907 It can be really, really difficult to navigate the ups and downs, 00:05:40.607 --> 00:05:45.147 and men and women who love each other have to navigate it together. 00:05:45.257 --> 00:05:45.587 Roxy: Uh huh. 00:05:45.587 --> 00:05:54.367 But, but I don't want to make someone feel guilty or, think they're, 00:05:54.627 --> 00:05:57.477 they must be doing it wrong because they don't feel that way yet. 00:05:58.177 --> 00:06:02.077 People that listen to me have to understand that I 00:06:02.077 --> 00:06:03.467 was raised in a home with. 00:06:03.897 --> 00:06:04.547 addiction. 00:06:04.957 --> 00:06:07.367 And then I've married addicts. 00:06:07.597 --> 00:06:12.877 And so I've had, decades to look at this. 00:06:13.367 --> 00:06:21.147 And, my husband Jack and I worked at recovery really, really hard for, About 00:06:21.147 --> 00:06:27.757 three years before the marriage stabilized because, when he disclosed it was so bad 00:06:28.457 --> 00:06:31.407 and, and then we continued working at it. 00:06:31.417 --> 00:06:38.617 So I just want to give people hope that if they're still in those trenches where 00:06:38.617 --> 00:06:45.277 they're working their guts out and it doesn't feel real good that there is hope. 00:06:45.977 --> 00:06:48.027 Speaker: Well you've arrived at the right place because Mason 00:06:48.027 --> 00:06:49.757 and I we're working our guts out. 00:06:50.127 --> 00:06:51.457 Absolutely, that's 00:06:51.457 --> 00:06:52.307 exactly where I'm at. 00:06:52.307 --> 00:06:53.687 And it doesn't feel very good, Roxy. 00:06:54.387 --> 00:06:55.137 Roxy: But it's 00:06:55.837 --> 00:07:02.207 But as someone who's loved people that chose recovery and loved people 00:07:02.207 --> 00:07:07.427 that didn't choose recovery because remember, I've had multiple marriages. 00:07:07.987 --> 00:07:08.057 Speaker: Yeah. 00:07:08.757 --> 00:07:13.177 Roxy: I want you to know That when people choose recovery, I 00:07:13.177 --> 00:07:18.197 have I have nothing but admiration Because I know it's a hard road. 00:07:18.607 --> 00:07:19.057 Speaker: Thank you. 00:07:19.547 --> 00:07:19.857 Thank you. 00:07:20.177 --> 00:07:25.337 So I have a question for because I feel like those that are feeling like they're 00:07:25.337 --> 00:07:29.927 in the the non stop battle of recovery that a lot of times that's at the 00:07:29.927 --> 00:07:37.177 beginning and I know for my wife and I It was, the idea was very much, this is my 00:07:37.177 --> 00:07:39.657 thing, and I'm bringing her into my thing. 00:07:39.657 --> 00:07:42.387 It wasn't like we both have a recovery journey to walk. 00:07:43.067 --> 00:07:45.827 It was basically Mason's gotta quit looking at porn. 00:07:46.347 --> 00:07:48.437 And, that was the idea. 00:07:48.517 --> 00:07:53.327 And it wasn't until, uh, Probably a year later when we both started realizing like 00:07:53.957 --> 00:07:57.977 we both got some work to do, you know, we both have recovery journeys to walk. 00:07:58.677 --> 00:08:03.027 So what would you say to wives that maybe are thinking that like, 00:08:03.167 --> 00:08:06.517 if this is my husband's problem, he's got to get it taken care of. 00:08:07.147 --> 00:08:09.987 Roxy: So what I would say is that. 00:08:10.422 --> 00:08:16.352 When you live with someone who has compulsions or addictions, it changes you. 00:08:16.872 --> 00:08:17.222 Speaker: Sure. 00:08:17.592 --> 00:08:19.312 Roxy: Okay, because there's dysfunction. 00:08:19.972 --> 00:08:20.332 Okay. 00:08:20.362 --> 00:08:25.972 And, and in a close relationship, especially a marriage, you 00:08:25.972 --> 00:08:28.412 create a dance of sorts. 00:08:29.112 --> 00:08:34.362 And when one person enters recovery those dance steps change. 00:08:35.062 --> 00:08:38.312 For a spouse to say, this is his problem. 00:08:38.512 --> 00:08:38.852 Speaker: Yeah. 00:08:38.912 --> 00:08:40.522 Roxy: Or this is her problem. 00:08:41.222 --> 00:08:46.242 That's not correct because that spouse has participated in the dance 00:08:46.292 --> 00:08:52.552 as well and there's, You know, I, I want to be careful here because 00:08:53.072 --> 00:08:55.102 betrayal trauma is a real thing. 00:08:55.102 --> 00:08:56.112 It's cellular. 00:08:56.132 --> 00:08:56.582 Speaker: For sure. 00:08:56.722 --> 00:09:03.582 Roxy: And, and when my husband first disclosed, I went into shock and it 00:09:03.582 --> 00:09:09.232 took some therapy and some groups for me to come down from being 00:09:09.232 --> 00:09:11.669 hypervigilant just a physical mess. 00:09:11.709 --> 00:09:11.959 Speaker: Yeah. 00:09:12.659 --> 00:09:20.589 Roxy: But when you step back and you start to see this dance you might be really 00:09:20.589 --> 00:09:24.309 mad at them, but you care about them. 00:09:25.009 --> 00:09:30.819 And so you start to say, okay, where did I help in this dance or, 00:09:30.849 --> 00:09:36.409 or maybe a better place because I spent the first two years mad. 00:09:36.889 --> 00:09:37.179 Speaker: Yeah. 00:09:37.219 --> 00:09:38.409 Roxy: I was furious. 00:09:38.509 --> 00:09:38.859 Speaker: Yeah. 00:09:39.319 --> 00:09:43.039 Roxy: But you have to remember that my husband disclosed to me 00:09:43.629 --> 00:09:47.299 secret behavior that had gone on for 24 years before he disclosed. 00:09:47.359 --> 00:09:49.339 So I was furious for a time. 00:09:49.699 --> 00:09:50.059 But. 00:09:50.759 --> 00:09:55.689 I started realizing that the addiction was a piece of him. 00:09:55.849 --> 00:09:57.509 It wasn't all of him. 00:09:58.209 --> 00:10:05.479 And because I was raised in that alcoholic home, I already recognized 00:10:05.959 --> 00:10:12.389 that I had behaviors that weren't what I hoped they would be too. 00:10:12.929 --> 00:10:17.479 So, I think that humility did, did help me. 00:10:18.389 --> 00:10:18.929 But. 00:10:19.629 --> 00:10:25.399 I don't want to say to someone who is angry, Oh, just get over it because 00:10:25.819 --> 00:10:27.669 I took my time and getting over it. 00:10:27.679 --> 00:10:27.889 For 00:10:27.889 --> 00:10:28.269 Speaker: sure. 00:10:28.419 --> 00:10:34.299 Roxy: But I do want to say that if, if the spouse can stand back 00:10:34.319 --> 00:10:37.579 and say, okay, I love this person. 00:10:38.199 --> 00:10:40.959 This is something that. 00:10:41.659 --> 00:10:45.189 They struggle with, but they're working at it, and I'm going to 00:10:45.189 --> 00:10:47.269 look for the good things in them. 00:10:47.579 --> 00:10:50.249 That's no different than any other marriage. 00:10:50.459 --> 00:10:57.599 And in many ways, working this recovery gave Jack and I the tools we needed to 00:10:57.599 --> 00:11:00.599 have a really, really good marriage. 00:11:00.824 --> 00:11:01.644 Marriage. 00:11:01.784 --> 00:11:01.854 Speaker: Yeah. 00:11:02.554 --> 00:11:08.654 Roxy: When I talk to my children now, or when I talk to grandchildren and they know 00:11:08.654 --> 00:11:14.694 someone they're dating has a struggle, my first question is, are they working on it? 00:11:15.414 --> 00:11:17.854 Do they recognize that they have a problem? 00:11:18.424 --> 00:11:25.644 Because in today's world, the person who recognizes that they struggle and then 00:11:25.654 --> 00:11:32.644 works on it, Is quite a bit farther ahead and in my mind has a lot more integrity 00:11:32.854 --> 00:11:37.474 than someone that says, nah, I don't have a problem, but they really do. 00:11:38.174 --> 00:11:39.014 Does that make sense? 00:11:39.014 --> 00:11:39.174 Speaker: Yeah. 00:11:39.174 --> 00:11:42.844 So people who end up, people who choose recovery end up having 00:11:42.844 --> 00:11:47.804 quite a bit more reciprocated love in their relationships long term. 00:11:48.449 --> 00:11:50.299 When they choose to heal together. 00:11:50.359 --> 00:11:51.349 Roxy: I believe that. 00:11:51.389 --> 00:11:51.859 Okay. 00:11:51.859 --> 00:11:54.339 So we're going to take Jack and I again. 00:11:54.839 --> 00:12:04.199 Um, he passed away after we had been working recovery for about 10 years and 00:12:04.199 --> 00:12:07.049 had strong recovery for about seven. 00:12:07.479 --> 00:12:10.819 And we had spent a lot of time helping other couples. 00:12:11.469 --> 00:12:16.529 But during that time, he had Um, a lot of health problems, and that 00:12:16.529 --> 00:12:21.989 put us in hospitals, which were trigger points for him and for me. 00:12:22.439 --> 00:12:25.259 Um, he had access to opioids. 00:12:25.959 --> 00:12:33.259 Working recovery allowed us right up until he passed to be able to be best friends 00:12:33.499 --> 00:12:38.549 and talk about slips and dysfunction when we saw it in either one of us. 00:12:38.639 --> 00:12:38.999 Speaker: Yeah. 00:12:39.059 --> 00:12:41.479 Roxy: Because we were under tremendous pressure. 00:12:41.809 --> 00:12:46.079 And so yes, he, we were best friends. 00:12:46.779 --> 00:12:51.159 Speaker: You know, I think it's funny cause you said a little earlier, , it 00:12:51.159 --> 00:12:54.249 reminded me of what me and my wife have talked a lot about, and I think 00:12:54.259 --> 00:12:59.554 that If you do have both parties surrendering, that God has a funny 00:12:59.554 --> 00:13:03.994 way of using something like addiction. 00:13:04.509 --> 00:13:10.279 To expose the ways that you can heal and become best friends and have 00:13:10.279 --> 00:13:11.899 this beautiful, wonderful marriage. 00:13:11.969 --> 00:13:12.979 Roxy: I agree with that. 00:13:13.039 --> 00:13:13.389 Speaker: Yeah. 00:13:13.429 --> 00:13:15.429 Roxy: I, I agree completely with that. 00:13:15.639 --> 00:13:22.049 So, so just to give some context to maybe those spouses that are still 00:13:22.049 --> 00:13:27.429 in that place where they're like, this is his problem and I'm angry. 00:13:28.014 --> 00:13:34.044 So, um, I want to tell you when I really put up the white flag. 00:13:34.744 --> 00:13:38.764 Okay, there were a couple of instances, but surrendering 00:13:38.764 --> 00:13:41.354 didn't come very natural to me. 00:13:41.754 --> 00:13:46.724 It doesn't come very natural to a lot of spouses and that's because 00:13:47.274 --> 00:13:51.734 in these relationships, it's often their job to keep things running. 00:13:52.434 --> 00:13:52.824 Okay. 00:13:52.854 --> 00:13:53.054 Speaker: Yeah. 00:13:53.254 --> 00:13:59.974 Roxy: And so when even when their spouse says, Hey, I'm going to work at recovery. 00:14:00.674 --> 00:14:03.324 A lot of times they're like, yeah, and I'm going to help. 00:14:04.024 --> 00:14:10.744 And, okay, um, I was that way, and Jack was not recovering at 00:14:10.744 --> 00:14:12.684 the speed I wanted him to recover. 00:14:13.174 --> 00:14:13.644 Speaker: Imagine that. 00:14:14.344 --> 00:14:18.904 Roxy: You know, he was pretty deep in the addiction when he disclosed, and so 00:14:19.454 --> 00:14:21.944 he didn't think the same way as he had. 00:14:22.414 --> 00:14:25.334 And we had some knock down, drag out fights. 00:14:25.844 --> 00:14:26.364 Speaker: Sure. 00:14:26.904 --> 00:14:32.184 Roxy: And one of them I journaled about, and to prepare for tonight, I looked up 00:14:32.324 --> 00:14:39.814 that, , entry and it was, it made me cry because it tells another truth that might 00:14:39.814 --> 00:14:43.384 not be true of you guys's relationships. 00:14:43.404 --> 00:14:49.754 You both seem pretty humble, but Jack was not humble and he was scared and 00:14:49.754 --> 00:14:55.564 we had had a knockdown drag out fight and he wanted to shut me out again. 00:14:56.264 --> 00:15:03.484 And That really triggered me and I pushed on the door and my heart was screaming. 00:15:03.514 --> 00:15:07.034 Oh, no, you don't you are not going to shut me out again. 00:15:07.734 --> 00:15:11.384 And in the process, it just made the fight blow up even more. 00:15:12.084 --> 00:15:15.714 And what I wrote is, , back to that dance. 00:15:15.714 --> 00:15:20.754 I said, I have got to quit this, damaging dance. 00:15:20.774 --> 00:15:22.214 We have, I've got to give up. 00:15:22.234 --> 00:15:28.224 I've got to surrender this to God because I had been praying whether 00:15:28.444 --> 00:15:30.114 I could leave the marriage or not. 00:15:30.184 --> 00:15:32.484 Things were so bad and the answer was no. 00:15:33.034 --> 00:15:39.284 And so it just felt like God was taunting me with lots more pain. 00:15:39.739 --> 00:15:40.809 in my future. 00:15:41.509 --> 00:15:44.639 But what I wrote is I have to trust God. 00:15:45.339 --> 00:15:47.979 I have to trust that he has something in mind. 00:15:48.259 --> 00:15:53.579 And at that point, it did not look like recovery would have ever been an option. 00:15:54.259 --> 00:16:02.099 But that's what surrender is to me letting go and turning the 00:16:02.249 --> 00:16:06.039 outcomes over to Jesus Christ. 00:16:06.349 --> 00:16:06.679 Okay. 00:16:06.969 --> 00:16:14.314 And the irony is when I finally learned that from these very painful 00:16:14.324 --> 00:16:16.674 things to surrender my will to God. 00:16:17.374 --> 00:16:21.674 Um, it gave me back my life power. 00:16:22.034 --> 00:16:27.644 It gave me back the ability to choose how I was going to respond 00:16:27.914 --> 00:16:30.224 in a given day, in a given moment. 00:16:30.924 --> 00:16:35.754 And it gave me back my power to choose what I wanted for my life. 00:16:36.454 --> 00:16:40.684 Not only that, but you guys ask your wives about this. 00:16:40.694 --> 00:16:46.684 But it also gave Jack back his power to choose. 00:16:46.684 --> 00:16:47.469 Yeah. 00:16:47.469 --> 00:16:48.254 Speaker: You 00:16:48.534 --> 00:16:50.764 know, that's a fascinating process. 00:16:51.444 --> 00:16:56.864 And I love how you described that there was some resistance. 00:16:57.344 --> 00:16:57.624 Initially. 00:16:57.624 --> 00:16:57.874 Oh, 00:16:58.154 --> 00:16:58.284 Roxy: there 00:16:58.284 --> 00:16:58.484 Speaker: was a 00:16:58.494 --> 00:16:58.904 Roxy: lot. 00:16:59.134 --> 00:17:00.471 Speaker: Some, some was the wrong thing. 00:17:00.471 --> 00:17:05.364 It was a lot of resistance initially, probably at least partially due to 00:17:05.384 --> 00:17:07.264 the immense amount of pain and grief. 00:17:07.324 --> 00:17:07.974 Roxy: And hurt. 00:17:08.094 --> 00:17:08.454 Speaker: Yeah. 00:17:08.464 --> 00:17:08.964 Hurt. 00:17:09.054 --> 00:17:09.674 Roxy: Yes. 00:17:09.854 --> 00:17:14.424 Speaker: I'm wondering what are, I mean, I would love to know this for my own wife 00:17:14.424 --> 00:17:16.634 so I can, I can be aware of this dynamic. 00:17:16.934 --> 00:17:21.304 What are some of , the defenses that show up for a woman who's 00:17:21.304 --> 00:17:23.184 trying to surrender this to God? 00:17:23.504 --> 00:17:28.704 And move into a healthier place when she is in this place of hurt. 00:17:29.084 --> 00:17:30.644 Roxy: I think fear. 00:17:31.344 --> 00:17:36.954 You, you are afraid you're going to lose even more than you 00:17:36.974 --> 00:17:39.304 feel like you've already lost. 00:17:40.004 --> 00:17:45.044 Um, Or you fear that the pain is going to continue forever. 00:17:45.414 --> 00:17:51.354 But the irony is by surrendering, we give our pain to God. 00:17:51.714 --> 00:17:56.684 It isn't that it completely leaves, but you give the outcome 00:17:56.764 --> 00:17:59.994 of that pain, um, to your God. 00:18:00.004 --> 00:18:00.864 And, and. 00:18:01.524 --> 00:18:06.554 And he's able to give you acceptance about what your life 00:18:06.564 --> 00:18:11.454 is and that gives you a measure of peace in your day to day actions. 00:18:11.714 --> 00:18:16.444 I brought, a saying that I kept by my bed for a long, long time 00:18:16.914 --> 00:18:18.824 because it reminded me of this. 00:18:19.014 --> 00:18:23.114 It came from one of those calendars that have thoughts. 00:18:23.254 --> 00:18:23.614 Thanks. 00:18:23.629 --> 00:18:29.959 And so I can't even tell you who said it, but it says surrender and rigid control 00:18:29.999 --> 00:18:32.659 are opposite sides of the same energy. 00:18:32.959 --> 00:18:35.329 Control is resistance. 00:18:35.759 --> 00:18:37.719 Surrender is acceptance. 00:18:37.979 --> 00:18:40.859 Control is believing you know what's best. 00:18:41.109 --> 00:18:46.009 And surrender is believing the universe or God is working through you. 00:18:46.689 --> 00:18:51.809 So that, that terribly painful surrender experience I told you 00:18:51.809 --> 00:18:57.449 about with Jack, you know, I went and debriefed it with my counselor and 00:18:57.449 --> 00:19:00.969 we talked about my want to control. 00:19:01.329 --> 00:19:07.499 She said to me That must be a terrible burden filling all that responsibility 00:19:07.999 --> 00:19:14.809 because I thought, again, back to a lot of times it's the spouse's job to 00:19:14.819 --> 00:19:20.579 keep things running or they think it is and everybody thinks it is, meaning 00:19:20.609 --> 00:19:25.829 I'm talking the family , she just said, boy, that must be a terrible 00:19:26.019 --> 00:19:29.079 burden, that over responsibility. 00:19:29.089 --> 00:19:32.559 And I think that's the first time my body let go. 00:19:33.259 --> 00:19:37.669 I actually felt like a hundred pounds came off of me for just an 00:19:37.689 --> 00:19:44.309 instant when I realized it wasn't my job whether Jack recovered or not. 00:19:44.559 --> 00:19:46.489 That was his choice. 00:19:47.189 --> 00:19:50.789 He had to choose whether he was going to choose the marriage. 00:19:50.869 --> 00:19:53.779 He had to choose whether he was going to love me. 00:19:54.479 --> 00:19:54.899 Okay. 00:19:55.119 --> 00:19:57.939 And, and the other thing that came from that is she said, you don't 00:19:57.949 --> 00:20:00.059 trust the process, do you Roxy? 00:20:00.599 --> 00:20:06.329 And, and so your wife's might really resonate with that because 00:20:06.789 --> 00:20:08.519 at first I said, what do you mean? 00:20:08.729 --> 00:20:13.429 And she says, you don't trust that the universe is going to take care of this, 00:20:13.429 --> 00:20:18.779 that all you have to do is do your best and it'll work out as it should. 00:20:19.479 --> 00:20:24.099 The more I thought about that, the more I thought, no, I don't trust the process. 00:20:24.799 --> 00:20:31.979 There's been lots of stuff in that process that has been so painful, but 00:20:32.189 --> 00:20:37.929 I discovered through years of working recovery that that was me not accepting 00:20:38.199 --> 00:20:40.749 that God had a purpose in that process. 00:20:41.319 --> 00:20:45.669 And since then, I've been able to say, without that process, I wouldn't 00:20:45.679 --> 00:20:52.529 be the person I am, nor would I have the peace in my life that I have. 00:20:53.229 --> 00:20:57.339 It's not like my life has been a poster. 00:20:58.039 --> 00:21:04.099 I've lost Jack, I tried to remarry, and that ended in divorce. 00:21:04.799 --> 00:21:09.469 But working the principles of recovery, and dealing with grief and 00:21:09.469 --> 00:21:16.139 surrender, I've been able to reclaim the peace that my life is okay. 00:21:16.204 --> 00:21:16.544 Um, 00:21:17.244 --> 00:21:20.744 Speaker: as you're speaking, you're talking about this dynamic, I 00:21:20.744 --> 00:21:23.104 feel, you know, like a big desire. 00:21:23.104 --> 00:21:24.514 Like I want to help my wife with this. 00:21:24.544 --> 00:21:26.764 My eyes are being open to the pain I'm causing her. 00:21:27.004 --> 00:21:31.624 My eyes are being open to the reality of the journey she's, she's taking with me. 00:21:31.624 --> 00:21:33.814 And 00:21:33.814 --> 00:21:35.194 Roxy: what a beautiful thing. 00:21:35.744 --> 00:21:38.634 And I just want to shout out to all the spouses out there. 00:21:39.054 --> 00:21:47.294 It is a journey you're taking with a loved one, and God sees you in that journey. 00:21:47.994 --> 00:21:49.564 And he sees both of you. 00:21:49.884 --> 00:21:54.154 So I want to shout out to those who struggle too for taking the journey. 00:21:54.474 --> 00:21:59.894 But from my standpoint of years later, it can be a beautiful thing. 00:22:00.594 --> 00:22:04.204 Speaker: What would you say to someone like me who wants to support their wife? 00:22:04.204 --> 00:22:07.164 I mean, because you, you highlighted right off the bat, right? 00:22:07.164 --> 00:22:09.214 Like to try to help, right? 00:22:09.364 --> 00:22:10.584 Quotations help. 00:22:11.284 --> 00:22:15.064 Our best efforts to help can be very, very dysfunctional on both sides. 00:22:15.074 --> 00:22:15.884 Roxy: On both sides. 00:22:15.884 --> 00:22:16.234 Yes. 00:22:16.264 --> 00:22:19.134 Speaker: If I want to support my wife, Roxy, what does that look like? 00:22:19.684 --> 00:22:20.414 Roxy: See her. 00:22:20.694 --> 00:22:21.024 Speaker: Okay. 00:22:21.724 --> 00:22:22.274 Roxy: See her. 00:22:22.274 --> 00:22:27.964 when you See her and you acknowledge her pain, she's able 00:22:28.084 --> 00:22:30.004 to also acknowledge her pain. 00:22:30.704 --> 00:22:36.094 And then she can surrender that pain to her God, to her higher power. 00:22:36.494 --> 00:22:40.584 So another thing about surrendering though, when you're in those trenches 00:22:40.614 --> 00:22:46.304 and you're mad as hell, like I was, the thought of surrendering was so 00:22:46.314 --> 00:22:51.664 foreign to me because in some ways you have to get still to surrender, right? 00:22:52.364 --> 00:22:57.414 and busyness was and is a coping mechanism I use. 00:22:58.114 --> 00:23:05.474 , But I want to tell listeners that ironically I found that movement 00:23:05.504 --> 00:23:08.644 with breath helped me to get steel. 00:23:09.344 --> 00:23:15.114 And that can be in the beginning years I ran and just that steady rhythmic 00:23:15.144 --> 00:23:20.594 pounding of the pavement with breath, I would, I would start my runs very 00:23:20.624 --> 00:23:26.564 agitated and I would end them being able to surrender that day to God. 00:23:26.884 --> 00:23:33.638 I later learned, because I'm a yoga instructor, that when you bring breath 00:23:33.688 --> 00:23:39.388 and movement, especially across the midline, you help your thinking brain re 00:23:39.388 --> 00:23:45.938 engage, the parts of your brain to talk to each other, and that allows the brain 00:23:45.938 --> 00:23:53.882 to become more still, and that's when you are more able to use your thinking 00:23:53.882 --> 00:23:56.252 power to give the pain to your God. 00:23:56.302 --> 00:24:02.152 Because one of the first steps that I discovered to surrender was I 00:24:02.162 --> 00:24:04.782 had to emotionally regulate myself. 00:24:05.482 --> 00:24:05.912 Okay. 00:24:06.112 --> 00:24:12.522 And this movement with breath can be, um, regulating, especially 00:24:12.702 --> 00:24:16.602 when somebody is in those beginning stages of betrayal, trauma. 00:24:16.952 --> 00:24:19.352 Everybody gets to find their own way. 00:24:19.572 --> 00:24:25.092 But I remember on those runs, and I would do them in the early morning, 00:24:25.662 --> 00:24:32.632 I remember sometimes physically like reaching to my heart to pull the pain 00:24:32.652 --> 00:24:36.992 out and physically handing it over. 00:24:37.692 --> 00:24:39.592 You're in charge of this today. 00:24:40.292 --> 00:24:41.612 I need to live today. 00:24:41.722 --> 00:24:43.282 So will you take my pain? 00:24:43.312 --> 00:24:46.642 And, and it sounds weird, but it worked for me. 00:24:47.042 --> 00:24:54.842 Speaker: It's funny you started this out by saying the similarities of Spouses 00:24:54.882 --> 00:24:57.522 and those that have close behavior because I'm sitting here thinking 00:24:57.522 --> 00:24:59.982 like, oh, that's me Like I hate pain. 00:24:59.982 --> 00:25:03.102 I don't want to sit with pain, you know And so everything you're 00:25:03.102 --> 00:25:04.382 saying Applies to me right now. 00:25:04.392 --> 00:25:09.132 I think me and my wife are kind of in similar boats with that aspect is It's 00:25:09.132 --> 00:25:14.732 just such this it's this deep visceral reaction to pain like running away 00:25:14.912 --> 00:25:20.592 from pain And I liked how you How you put it, cause that, that meditation, 00:25:20.762 --> 00:25:26.542 right, that running, I think is a huge part of being able to face your pain. 00:25:26.892 --> 00:25:27.242 Roxy: Uh huh. 00:25:27.572 --> 00:25:28.182 Speaker: Face your pain. 00:25:28.382 --> 00:25:28.602 Roxy: Yeah. 00:25:28.602 --> 00:25:30.052 To sit down and look at it. 00:25:30.252 --> 00:25:33.722 And, and that's what surrender allows you to do as well. 00:25:34.362 --> 00:25:38.752 Because to surrender it, you have to know what it is. 00:25:39.452 --> 00:25:44.072 You have to say, you have to get past the anger and, and you 00:25:44.072 --> 00:25:45.491 can surrender your anger too. 00:25:45.491 --> 00:25:45.679 Absolutely. 00:25:45.679 --> 00:25:45.867 Absolutely. 00:25:46.567 --> 00:25:50.817 And you get past the anger and, and that's when you can kind of take it 00:25:50.817 --> 00:25:56.897 out and look at it and say, actually, father in heaven, I am so disappointed. 00:25:57.257 --> 00:26:02.527 This was a hope and a dream of mine, and it seems to be lost. 00:26:03.137 --> 00:26:07.047 Or, you know, this is so much different than I expected. 00:26:07.397 --> 00:26:11.277 I really have seen in my life that God makes beauty from ashes. 00:26:11.977 --> 00:26:20.777 But it's really important for spouses to be able to hand him those ashes and 00:26:20.777 --> 00:26:24.752 say, This is what I feel right now. 00:26:25.452 --> 00:26:26.652 He can take it. 00:26:27.162 --> 00:26:29.102 He can take you being mad. 00:26:29.572 --> 00:26:32.572 He can take you being despondent. 00:26:33.272 --> 00:26:35.032 In fact, he wants to. 00:26:35.732 --> 00:26:37.262 is my experience. 00:26:37.962 --> 00:26:44.072 And then when you are able to surrender to your higher power, and you see what 00:26:44.082 --> 00:26:50.502 you're surrendering, that's where that empowerment comes for you to step back 00:26:50.502 --> 00:26:54.412 and say, Okay, now, what do I want? 00:26:55.112 --> 00:26:56.532 This is where I am. 00:26:57.232 --> 00:26:58.572 Where am I going to go? 00:26:59.002 --> 00:27:04.802 And, and, and then as the spouse heals, and as the person struggling 00:27:04.802 --> 00:27:10.632 with compulsion heals, then their relationship starts to heal, and 00:27:10.632 --> 00:27:15.762 then they as, as a team get to say, Okay, this is where we've been. 00:27:16.102 --> 00:27:17.532 This is what it's looked like. 00:27:18.232 --> 00:27:19.692 This is where we are right now. 00:27:19.692 --> 00:27:22.072 And where do we want to go from here? 00:27:22.462 --> 00:27:25.432 And that's where that beautiful empowerment comes from. 00:27:26.112 --> 00:27:31.062 But, we do need to talk about grief because this process is not 00:27:31.072 --> 00:27:34.992 possible without the spouse grieving. 00:27:35.362 --> 00:27:38.892 Speaker: So what happens to a woman when she doesn't grieve? 00:27:39.062 --> 00:27:40.382 Roxy: It comes out sideways. 00:27:40.402 --> 00:27:42.213 It can come out, Lots of ways. 00:27:42.513 --> 00:27:44.873 And I think it came out all the ways for me. 00:27:45.163 --> 00:27:48.663 Because remember, I had been grieving since I was a little 00:27:48.663 --> 00:27:50.263 kid and I didn't know it. 00:27:50.963 --> 00:27:55.503 And so I had all this, this emotion stuffed in me. 00:27:56.043 --> 00:27:59.313 And that's part of why surrendering was so hard. 00:27:59.963 --> 00:28:03.883 I, by the time I realized that I needed to surrender and that there 00:28:03.943 --> 00:28:08.543 was so much pain there, I was afraid of what would come out of my mouth. 00:28:08.913 --> 00:28:13.403 You know, we're okay as a society when somebody dies. 00:28:13.493 --> 00:28:16.723 We send flowers, we're like, we're so sorry. 00:28:17.423 --> 00:28:19.553 That's only one type of grief. 00:28:20.253 --> 00:28:24.953 And we really don't know how to grieve, or I didn't. 00:28:25.653 --> 00:28:32.843 One time during this process, um, of, of these 20 plus years of recovery. 00:28:32.843 --> 00:28:35.903 And this was after my last divorce. 00:28:36.033 --> 00:28:37.993 I went right back into shame. 00:28:38.693 --> 00:28:46.208 I went right back into feeling almost betrayed by my God, because I, 00:28:46.608 --> 00:28:52.558 despite all my understanding, I had fell for the facade that he put up. 00:28:52.868 --> 00:28:53.288 Okay. 00:28:53.498 --> 00:28:56.128 And he didn't want to work recovery. 00:28:56.778 --> 00:28:58.788 It wasn't that I just up and ran. 00:28:58.798 --> 00:29:02.137 He didn't want to work for, for recovery. 00:29:02.418 --> 00:29:09.538 And so, there was a lot of grief and I joined a group. 00:29:10.088 --> 00:29:13.938 I love groups because I love honest groups. 00:29:14.408 --> 00:29:15.528 Because you can be real. 00:29:15.558 --> 00:29:20.978 And I was explaining how these waves of grief would just hit me. 00:29:21.298 --> 00:29:26.378 And I was, I almost couldn't function for three or four days. 00:29:26.918 --> 00:29:31.398 And I would be angry, and it was just a cycle. 00:29:31.408 --> 00:29:32.698 It was starting to be a cycle. 00:29:32.698 --> 00:29:36.438 And I recognized it was bigger than I was, and I needed somebody 00:29:36.438 --> 00:29:37.838 who could see what it was. 00:29:38.538 --> 00:29:43.708 And so I was explaining about it one time, and the woman leading, 00:29:43.878 --> 00:29:48.128 She looked at me and she said, so what's your relationship with grief? 00:29:48.828 --> 00:29:50.988 And I said, what do you mean? 00:29:51.688 --> 00:29:53.438 Grief's an emotion. 00:29:54.008 --> 00:29:56.168 You don't have a relationship with grief. 00:29:56.168 --> 00:29:57.908 And she goes, Oh yes, you do. 00:29:58.438 --> 00:30:01.372 You have a relationship with all your emotions. 00:30:01.852 --> 00:30:05.462 And all of a sudden the truth of what she said just welled up. 00:30:06.002 --> 00:30:11.097 And I was mad at grief and I just exploded. 00:30:11.117 --> 00:30:12.687 I said, I hate grief. 00:30:13.387 --> 00:30:15.027 I've been grieving for years. 00:30:15.027 --> 00:30:16.387 I'm so sick of grief. 00:30:16.437 --> 00:30:23.467 And we proceeded to talk about how maybe I could reconcile my relationship 00:30:23.467 --> 00:30:29.927 with grief and It's very interesting because since that point I've had lots 00:30:29.927 --> 00:30:36.157 of waves of grief it comes and it goes Someone that I dearly dearly love is 00:30:36.167 --> 00:30:41.437 gone, you know from this life forever But I've never had the experience 00:30:41.517 --> 00:30:46.877 where it overwhelmed me and made me so I couldn't function again Because I 00:30:46.877 --> 00:30:49.757 learned to accept it and surrender it 00:30:50.457 --> 00:30:51.797 Speaker: Can you dig more into that? 00:30:51.807 --> 00:30:55.547 What does it look like to live in a healthy recovery for a 00:30:55.557 --> 00:30:57.057 woman who knows how to grieve, 00:30:58.057 --> 00:31:01.337 Roxy: to me, it looks like surrendering every day and I have 00:31:01.717 --> 00:31:04.397 specific steps to my surrendering. 00:31:05.397 --> 00:31:06.397 To surrender. 00:31:06.807 --> 00:31:09.007 First I have to regulate my emotions. 00:31:09.627 --> 00:31:13.597 Sometimes I still let emotions get way out of hand before I'm 00:31:13.597 --> 00:31:15.717 like, Whoa, I'm in trouble here. 00:31:16.417 --> 00:31:19.017 And so I have to regulate the emotions. 00:31:19.017 --> 00:31:21.777 I have to be able to still my mind. 00:31:22.167 --> 00:31:24.537 And that could look like a yoga class. 00:31:24.797 --> 00:31:26.307 It could look like a walk. 00:31:26.767 --> 00:31:30.497 It could look like a really good night's sleep with soft music. 00:31:30.817 --> 00:31:31.147 Okay. 00:31:31.847 --> 00:31:38.527 But then I have to explore what's in my control and what's not in my control 00:31:38.917 --> 00:31:41.357 in the situation, what is happening. 00:31:41.727 --> 00:31:47.347 And then I journal about it sometimes when I'm talking in my mind without journaling, 00:31:47.697 --> 00:31:49.847 I can start down a spiral again. 00:31:50.437 --> 00:31:58.997 Then, I actively take what I cannot control to God, and I say, this is yours. 00:31:59.697 --> 00:32:04.747 And then I have to choose to act on what I can control, which is my 00:32:04.747 --> 00:32:09.247 response to the situation, which is how I'm going to think about the 00:32:09.247 --> 00:32:14.027 situation, which is how I'm going to try and show up for the situation. 00:32:14.407 --> 00:32:17.702 I have to try and act on what's in my, My control. 00:32:18.052 --> 00:32:23.272 But another step, and I think a lot of spouses might say, 00:32:23.362 --> 00:32:25.042 But what about what I wanted? 00:32:25.742 --> 00:32:28.442 Surrendering is not giving up what you want. 00:32:29.142 --> 00:32:36.352 But in this process, one of my steps, one of my very formal steps is to pray 00:32:36.352 --> 00:32:38.762 to God and say, This is what I wanted. 00:32:39.132 --> 00:32:45.762 This is what I hoped for, but then I have to let go of how that happens. 00:32:46.462 --> 00:32:51.709 I have to acknowledge that God knows my desires , and the process will work. 00:32:52.409 --> 00:32:55.189 And then that's about six steps. 00:32:55.889 --> 00:32:59.949 Then I repeat those six steps as often as I need to, 00:33:00.149 --> 00:33:00.369 Speaker: as, 00:33:00.609 --> 00:33:04.449 Roxy: as I began worrying about that situation or event again. 00:33:05.149 --> 00:33:12.419 And sometimes on those really hard things, I'll have to do that multiple times a day. 00:33:12.899 --> 00:33:14.889 I don't sit down and journal. 00:33:15.264 --> 00:33:16.604 multiple times a day. 00:33:16.654 --> 00:33:20.034 I don't have time, but I might look over what I journaled the 00:33:20.034 --> 00:33:22.544 night before just to refresh. 00:33:22.944 --> 00:33:28.064 Speaker: How long did it take you in your whole life of being around 00:33:28.764 --> 00:33:33.424 people in recovery or not choosing recovery to boil it down to six 00:33:33.424 --> 00:33:34.984 steps that actually help you? 00:33:35.684 --> 00:33:37.734 Roxy: That's a really good question, Mason. 00:33:37.934 --> 00:33:39.434 That's a really good question. 00:33:40.164 --> 00:33:41.794 So I'll give two answers. 00:33:42.194 --> 00:33:47.344 First off, My higher power, my God, has been helping me with 00:33:47.344 --> 00:33:49.774 recovery, , since my early 20s. 00:33:50.474 --> 00:33:51.574 I didn't know it. 00:33:52.274 --> 00:33:57.694 When, Jack gave his first sterile disclosure when I was 47. 00:33:58.394 --> 00:34:01.114 That's when I had to put purpose and meaning into it. 00:34:01.114 --> 00:34:11.344 And that process, that took about two years for me to really, understand and 00:34:11.344 --> 00:34:17.834 accept the principles and, Develop faith that they would work in the long run. 00:34:18.534 --> 00:34:18.924 Speaker: Yeah 00:34:18.924 --> 00:34:20.230 Well, 00:34:20.230 --> 00:34:26.764 I hit my first 12 00:34:27.464 --> 00:34:30.564 Roxy: step meeting thinking what most of them think 00:34:30.744 --> 00:34:30.954 Speaker: yeah, 00:34:30.994 --> 00:34:41.239 Roxy: which is great Control And when you go through step one again and 00:34:41.239 --> 00:34:46.409 you're like, I really don't get that and you go through it the fourth time 00:34:46.409 --> 00:34:48.289 and you're like, okay, I got one. 00:34:48.989 --> 00:34:54.489 You see that it's a process, but I believe I can laugh about it now 00:34:54.499 --> 00:35:01.019 because I believe that the principles are recovery of recovery are principles 00:35:01.029 --> 00:35:05.269 that help you live a really happy and peaceful life in the long run. 00:35:05.949 --> 00:35:11.569 It doesn't take away the problems, but it gives you solid principled 00:35:11.749 --> 00:35:15.089 tools to work around the problems. 00:35:15.089 --> 00:35:15.608 for joining us. 00:35:16.308 --> 00:35:21.578 Speaker: Roxy, if you could speak to my wife right now, who's struggling with 00:35:21.628 --> 00:35:27.398 the effects of my sexual addiction, and the pain and the grief of her 00:35:27.398 --> 00:35:31.258 own recovery journey, and the healing that that takes, what would you say 00:35:32.212 --> 00:35:38.802 Roxy: the first thing that I would say to her is come over to my house and 00:35:38.802 --> 00:35:44.482 we'll have a Coke together and I'm going to hug you and, and you can tell me 00:35:44.482 --> 00:35:47.812 your story and I'm going to understand. 00:35:48.512 --> 00:35:52.832 And if you don't want to come to my house, you can go to the house of thousands 00:35:52.832 --> 00:36:01.342 of other women , who will love you and help you understand that you are able 00:36:01.342 --> 00:36:05.142 to do this and that you will be healed. 00:36:07.959 --> 00:36:12.859 God has you, and if you have a willing heart, God has you. 00:36:13.259 --> 00:36:20.959 , In metaphorical and literal ways, he's going to take you by the hand, and he's 00:36:20.979 --> 00:36:26.999 going to provide the resources you need, and the people you need, and he's going 00:36:26.999 --> 00:36:29.289 to walk through this journey with you. 00:36:29.989 --> 00:36:39.629 Because He is creating an army of spouses who understand this and can help this 00:36:39.649 --> 00:36:47.239 mixed up world of ours fight it with principles and not with vengeance. 00:36:47.239 --> 00:36:54.186 And he's going to walk you through the necessary valleys. 00:36:54.886 --> 00:37:00.626 that you need to go through to become acquainted with your own pain , and 00:37:00.626 --> 00:37:03.556 the places where you need to grieve. 00:37:04.236 --> 00:37:09.666 He's going to ask you for that pain and he's going to be there to take 00:37:09.666 --> 00:37:11.806 it when you're ready to give it. 00:37:12.506 --> 00:37:21.556 And he, you know, I remember doing a share one night, um, I remember doing a share 00:37:21.556 --> 00:37:28.426 one night where I suddenly had a visual that it was like I was clenching my pain 00:37:29.126 --> 00:37:37.106 and, and, and my higher power was trying to loosen my fingers, but I suddenly 00:37:37.146 --> 00:37:44.216 understood that I was clenching it as a form of validating that it had happened. 00:37:44.216 --> 00:37:51.256 Transcribed But , in those, in those moments of, of whatever miraculous way 00:37:51.296 --> 00:37:56.666 our minds are opened up, I understood that I didn't have to clench that 00:37:56.666 --> 00:38:04.076 pain anymore because I was validated because the experience was mine. 00:38:04.706 --> 00:38:14.226 And It had helped shape me into what I was and was becoming and I could let go of it. 00:38:14.926 --> 00:38:19.786 Speaker: I've got one last question because I know I really think my wife 00:38:19.786 --> 00:38:26.176 would really like this I'm hearing this This change I feel like in your journey 00:38:26.876 --> 00:38:31.826 Maybe in a relationship with God because before you were like Man, I felt like 00:38:31.826 --> 00:38:35.426 God was almost kind of just streamed me along, you know with the pain. 00:38:35.616 --> 00:38:37.436 Roxy: I felt like collateral damage. 00:38:37.436 --> 00:38:45.246 And I had done that with Jack and so when Jack came forward I Felt as 00:38:45.246 --> 00:38:49.316 betrayed by God As I did by my husband. 00:38:49.636 --> 00:38:50.026 Speaker: Yeah. 00:38:50.026 --> 00:38:57.396 Roxy: And I honestly felt like I was collateral damage and I 00:38:57.406 --> 00:39:03.256 had decided that, um, he didn't know my name I knew he was there. 00:39:03.916 --> 00:39:09.246 And I knew he loved Jack, but I had decided that maybe he had nameless 00:39:09.246 --> 00:39:11.826 masses that he didn't care about. 00:39:12.046 --> 00:39:13.736 And I was one of those. 00:39:14.436 --> 00:39:20.206 And it was on a road trip about two years into our journey that Jack, 00:39:20.906 --> 00:39:27.666 um, questioned me enough where I told him this incorrect assumption and he 00:39:27.666 --> 00:39:30.826 made me promise to go on a journey. 00:39:31.471 --> 00:39:33.611 To find the God that knew my name. 00:39:34.311 --> 00:39:36.771 I had to dig in and that was quite a journey. 00:39:37.181 --> 00:39:37.581 Speaker: Yeah. 00:39:37.931 --> 00:39:44.131 Roxy: But, um, You are very intuitive, Mason, because that changed me when I 00:39:44.141 --> 00:39:49.931 figured out that God did care about my pain and that he was walking with me. 00:39:50.631 --> 00:39:55.351 You know, one time I would go to my garden when I was upset. 00:39:56.021 --> 00:39:59.101 One time I was just furious and I was furious at God. 00:39:59.121 --> 00:40:04.541 And I was like, you let this grow in my home, you know, and I'm pulling out weeds. 00:40:04.631 --> 00:40:04.981 Speaker: Yeah. 00:40:05.671 --> 00:40:08.636 Roxy: And I didn't I knew nobody had bothered me because I was in the 00:40:08.636 --> 00:40:11.876 garden and nobody liked the garden because it was work, you know? 00:40:12.326 --> 00:40:19.306 And I'm like, you let this grow in my home for 24 years, you 00:40:19.306 --> 00:40:21.586 know, that's not very nice? 00:40:22.326 --> 00:40:25.646 And he said, Roxy, you would have run. 00:40:26.346 --> 00:40:34.776 And at that point, Jack and I had a decent amount of recovery and I knew that 00:40:34.786 --> 00:40:36.326 the addiction was only getting worse. 00:40:36.581 --> 00:40:45.451 This much of him and I knew that there were really, really wonderful reasons why 00:40:45.541 --> 00:40:48.001 I chose to stay and why I wanted to stay. 00:40:48.631 --> 00:40:52.621 And I had to sit back and say, yeah, you did that for me. 00:40:53.321 --> 00:40:59.041 And I think that most spouses, as they evolve in that journey and find 00:40:59.041 --> 00:41:03.771 the God who knows their name and they will find him working recovery. 00:41:04.376 --> 00:41:05.496 They will find him. 00:41:05.526 --> 00:41:10.836 I've seen it a million different ways for thousands of women. 00:41:11.536 --> 00:41:17.616 They will find him, and they will look back and see that he never left them. 00:41:18.316 --> 00:41:19.096 Speaker: That's beautiful. 00:41:19.716 --> 00:41:20.546 Thank you, Roxy. 00:41:21.246 --> 00:41:25.236 Starting off this, we kind of did a check in, and that's kind of where, where 00:41:25.236 --> 00:41:28.136 I'm at right now in my recovery, and that's where my wife is at right now, is 00:41:28.146 --> 00:41:32.836 we're trying to find that God who knows our name, and I just love how you put 00:41:32.836 --> 00:41:34.966 that because That's what we're doing. 00:41:35.706 --> 00:41:40.426 Roxy: And you know, that's a hard journey too, but that's part of the hard journey 00:41:40.426 --> 00:41:48.846 of recovery in my mind, because I think a lot of people come into, um, recovery, 00:41:48.946 --> 00:41:51.546 not knowing the God who knows their name. 00:41:51.946 --> 00:41:55.826 Speaker: As me and my wife have been talking about it, we've found a lot of 00:41:55.866 --> 00:41:58.816 purpose in recovery for just that reason. 00:41:59.516 --> 00:42:02.856 Is we've asked we've asked the question so many times which 00:42:03.106 --> 00:42:04.536 I'm sure everyone asked why? 00:42:05.186 --> 00:42:09.846 Why me why this and that's exactly the purpose we found is that 00:42:09.846 --> 00:42:12.956 God just wants us He wants us to know that he knows our name. 00:42:13.556 --> 00:42:16.576 Roxy: Yeah, and you know Mason, I'm pretty old 00:42:17.276 --> 00:42:24.436 Yeah and I've loved a lot of people You with different types of addictions. 00:42:24.986 --> 00:42:33.736 And those relationships have, um, had different outcomes and, and there's 00:42:33.736 --> 00:42:38.696 been a lot of pain along the way, but I'm not sorry for the journey now. 00:42:39.366 --> 00:42:43.986 It took me a long, long time to come to that point. 00:42:44.686 --> 00:42:46.786 But now I do. 00:42:47.486 --> 00:42:57.166 Can see that the journey has been kind to me because I'm a different person. 00:42:57.866 --> 00:42:59.096 Speaker: Roxy, you're a blessing. 00:42:59.316 --> 00:42:59.956 Thank you. 00:43:00.656 --> 00:43:01.656 I don't know about that. 00:43:02.326 --> 00:43:02.816 I still 00:43:02.816 --> 00:43:03.556 Roxy: have a temper. 00:43:04.256 --> 00:43:05.926 Speaker: You're a little fireball, but you're a blessing. 00:43:06.626 --> 00:43:07.815 We just really appreciate it. 00:43:07.816 --> 00:43:08.396 I don't, 00:43:08.496 --> 00:43:10.046 I don't yell at God as much, though. 00:43:10.746 --> 00:43:14.446 Well, for those of us who are still in that phase, we appreciate you coming on 00:43:14.446 --> 00:43:16.026 and just shedding a little bit of light. 00:43:16.046 --> 00:43:16.586 There's hope. 00:43:16.636 --> 00:43:16.986 Yeah. 00:43:17.106 --> 00:43:20.901 And, uh, I think both for me and for my wife, we're really going to enjoy 00:43:20.941 --> 00:43:24.451 going back and listening to this podcast episode because I learned a lot from you. 00:43:24.761 --> 00:43:25.481 Roxy: I hope so. 00:43:25.481 --> 00:43:27.371 And you tell her to come over and see me. 00:43:27.441 --> 00:43:28.671 Speaker: I'll tell her to come have a Coke with 00:43:28.671 --> 00:43:30.780 Roxy: you. 00:43:30.781 --> 00:43:31.591 It's diet Coke. 00:43:32.291 --> 00:43:32.821 Speaker: Thank you. 00:43:33.521 --> 00:43:36.301 For those of you listening, uh, Roxy. 00:43:36.651 --> 00:43:40.831 is also our editor on the Unashamed Unafraid guidebook. 00:43:41.001 --> 00:43:45.141 We liked her so much after she recorded the first episode with us that we 00:43:45.141 --> 00:43:46.621 asked her if she would do that for us. 00:43:46.621 --> 00:43:48.401 And she has been wonderful to work with. 00:43:48.941 --> 00:43:52.771 And so we've grown quite a close relationship, me and her working together 00:43:52.771 --> 00:43:55.301 on the guidebook, , every week or so. 00:43:55.811 --> 00:43:57.991 Uh, but just, just a real blessing to my life. 00:43:57.991 --> 00:43:59.381 So thank you for being on again. 00:44:00.081 --> 00:44:02.791 Again, that's Roxanna, Roxanna Johnson. 00:44:02.821 --> 00:44:07.341 She's the author of Forgotten in the Battle of Sexual Addiction, A Journey, 00:44:07.361 --> 00:44:08.441 Roxy: The Journey of a Spouse, 00:44:08.461 --> 00:44:09.921 Speaker: The Journey of a Spouse. 00:44:10.011 --> 00:44:10.291 Roxy: Yeah. 00:44:10.991 --> 00:44:12.881 Speaker: Thanks for joining Unashamed Unafraid. 00:44:12.881 --> 00:44:14.521 Thanks for listening today. 00:44:15.221 --> 00:44:16.381 We love to have you on here. 00:44:16.381 --> 00:44:20.521 We love to, we love to share this content with everyone as I heal, as 00:44:20.521 --> 00:44:23.071 Mason heals, you guys all heal too. 00:44:23.591 --> 00:44:25.491 And we appreciate you joining us in that journey. 00:44:26.191 --> 00:44:28.700 You can donate and become an outsider on unashamed, unafraid. 00:44:28.701 --> 00:44:29.221 com. 00:44:29.921 --> 00:44:32.734 Please find us on social media at unashamed, unafraid. 00:44:33.134 --> 00:44:36.504 . this was helpful to you, it will probably be helpful to one of your friends. 00:44:36.674 --> 00:44:40.914 So go ahead and share this with someone who you think needs it today. 00:44:41.484 --> 00:44:42.274 Thanks for listening. 00:44:42.274 --> 00:44:44.844 And until next time, continue to live on the shamed.